#clojure – 2008-12-03

2008-12-03

05:02	blackdog	this looks interesting http://github.com/aemoncannon/las3r/wikis
06:50	AWizzArd	uh, jdk 6 update 11 is out
06:51	AWizzArd	that was fast.. 10 came out only 6 week ago
07:02	hoeck	blackdog: yeah, I've seen this too, very nice.
07:25	AWizzArd	Hi rhickey. Could the docstring of (defn repl ...) in main.clj need a correction, where it still says "default: println" vs "default: prn"?
07:27	rhickey	AWizzArd: done
07:29	AWizzArd	rhickey: btw, is it planned that Clojure will support annotations one day? Or do you think this will never make sense?
07:30	rhickey	AWizzArd: I imagine it will someday
07:30	AWizzArd	I would like to use a very powerful webdevelopment framework for Java (Rife) which uses annotations in a few cases. So perhaps I could have a use for that feature in the future.
07:31	rhickey	AWizzArd: what does Rife need?
07:31	rhickey	(pointer to javadoc is fine)
07:31	AWizzArd	http://rifers.org/wiki/display/RIFE/Annotations+support+for+element+declaration
07:32	AWizzArd	I would like to clojurize Rife over the coming weeks, and I think when that is done we can outperform Ruby+Rails with the combo Clojure+Rife.
07:38	rhickey	AWizzArd: it doesn't look like those attributes are required, and you might get more power from a code-based approach since you have macros: http://rifers.org/wiki/display/RIFE/Site+structure+and+element+declaration+without+XML
07:38	AWizzArd	yes, I would like to macro most/all pain out of Rife which it got because of the use of Java.
07:39	rhickey	AWizzArd: I would stay away from named classes and attributes then
07:40	AWizzArd	I will later look deeper into Rife, to see if annotations and other stuff really is needed. Currently I still have the problem that I can't get it running. I was already discussing the issue with Chouser to some extent.
07:40	rhickey	Rife does bytecode transformation, right?
07:41	AWizzArd	My idea is to get the minimal Rife app running, a HelloWorld. Currently the hello world example contains just a .java file. Rife expects either .class or .java files. What Chouser and I tested was to compile the existing .java with javac and just have the .class there. This works.
07:41	AWizzArd	When I put in instead my 3 (with clojure) compiled .class files it can't instatiate HelloWorld
07:42	AWizzArd	I am not sure if it transforms Bytecode
07:43	rhickey	I went to a Rife talk at Java One, I think it does
07:43	AWizzArd	My clojure code compiles. At the top you see the original .java code, at the bottom my .clj code: http://paste.lisp.org/display/71154
07:44	AWizzArd	the stuff after (defn -processElement ...) is just for me, to remember what I need
07:45	AWizzArd	Let's say Rife does indeed do bytecode transformation. What would this then mean for the combo Clojure+Rife? Could it still work?
07:46	rhickey	That depends on whether Rife could handle the bytecode Clojure emits, I'm sure it's expecting bytecode produced by Java
07:48	AWizzArd	In fact Geert Bevin said something like that.. I told him about my plan, to replace the HelloWorld.java with .class files from Clojure, and just tell jetty where it finds the clojure.jar. But he then said that he doesn't expect it to be so easy.
07:48	AWizzArd	For Groovy they had to do some extra work. Now Rife can also take plain .groovy files and will compile them on the fly.
07:49	AWizzArd	This would be the goal for Clojure as well, but I hoped the other step would be easier and work straight away, without writing any .java code.
07:55	leafw	hi all. So find-doc is supposed to be able to accept #"regex", yet it doesn't: java.lang.ClassCastException: java.util.regex.Pattern cannot be cast to java.lang.String
07:56	leafw	rev 1138 supports it, according to the commit message
07:57	rhickey	leafw: works for me
07:57	rhickey	ant clean?
07:58	leafw	checking
08:00	leafw	same thing
08:00	leafw	let me check more
08:00	leafw	my classpath is too long, maybe contains other clojure.jar
08:02	leafw	nice, now it worked
08:02	leafw	thanks rhickey
08:03	leafw	by the way, would be nice if (doc ...) accepted regex too, but for function names only.
08:04	rhickey	leafw: unlikely
08:05	leafw	will make my own in user.clj
08:05	rhickey	there you go
09:00	leafw	in gen-class :methods, the example at http://clojure.org/compilation lists a new method as [[foo [] String]]; if I understand correctly, this means a vector of one method, the latter a vector with the name, an empty vector and a String type. What are the empty and the String doing there?
09:00	leafw	the empty I guess is the paramters. But the String?
09:00	rhickey	leafw: return value
09:00	rhickey	return type
09:01	leafw	aha, thank you.
09:01	rhickey	(doc gen-class)
09:01	clojurebot	When compiling, generates compiled bytecode for a class with the given package-qualified :name (which, as all names in these parameters, can be a string or symbol), and writes the .class file to the compile-path directory. When not compiling, does nothing. The gen-class construct contains no implementation, as the implementation will be dynamically sought by the generated class in functions in an implementi
09:01	rhickey	aargh
09:02	leafw	cut short.
09:02	rhickey	:methods [ [name [param-types] return-type], ...]
09:02	leafw	and when void, just nil return type? Or must return something always?
09:03	rhickey	void
09:03	rhickey	it's a Java signature
09:04	leafw	thanks.
09:05	abrooks	Void (upper case)
09:06	rhickey	abrooks: no, void/int/float etc should now work, no need for Void/TYPE
09:06	lvijay	clojurebot: svn
09:06	clojurebot	svn co https://clojure.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/clojure clojure
09:07	blackdog	ping Chouser
09:10	blackdog	rhickey, you will be interested in this too, clojure in AS3 http://github.com/aemoncannon/las3r/wikis
09:11	rhickey	blackdog: yes, I spoke with him when he embarked on that
09:11	blackdog	oh really :) ok, thought i was ahead of the curve
09:16	duck1123	it looks pretty neat
09:16	duck1123	the repl still hasn't loaded for me though
09:17	abrooks	rhickey: Ah! Okay, thanks.
09:17	blackdog	could be useful to do a haxe port of that, and see if it can't target both flash and js at the same time
09:21	rhickey	duck1123: it doesn't really say anything when it's done loading, just type in the lower frame
09:22	duck1123	ahh, ok. I know nothing about flash, so it has little use for me.
09:30	alvin-x	$ java -cp clojure.jar clojure.lang.Repl Exception in thread "main" java.lang.ClassFormatError: JVMCFRE068 class name is invalid; class=clojure/core-proxy__init, offset=0 at java.lang.ClassLoader.defineClass(ClassLoader.java:264) at java.security.SecureClassLoader.defineClass(Unknown Source) at java.net.URLClassLoader.defineClass(URLClassLoader.java:506
09:30	alvin-x	ahem
09:31	alvin-x	http://paste.lisp.org/display/71490
09:31	alvin-x	svn 1141, compiling and running under Java 5 in AIX... compiling goes ok, but running -- not so good
09:36	danlarkin	Gooooooodmorning clojurecrats
09:37	abrooks	Clojurites?
09:37	danlarkin	clojureitis?
09:37	rhickey	alvin-x: I was wondering when some VM would complain about that - fixed in svn 1142
09:37	alvin-x	:)
09:37	abrooks	danlarkin: Ew.. :)
09:38	alvin-x	rhickey: ok, i'll get it
09:41	danlarkin	clojurebot: clojureitis is a condition in which it becomes impossible to program in other languages anymore
09:41	clojurebot	In Ordnung
09:43	alvin-x	rhickey: it worked
09:47	lisppaste8	leafw pasted "Trying out gen-class" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71492
09:48	leafw	would appreciate help figuring out why I get an error such as: Caused by: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate fj/process/FloatProcessorPlus__init.class or fj/process/FloatProcessorPlus.clj on classpath
09:48	Chouser	add "./classes/" to your classpath
09:49	leafw	Chouser: ./classes/ being a folder where classes will be generated to? Should I create that folder if it doesn't exist?
09:51	leafw	didn't work either way
09:51	leafw	despite the obvious namespace typo in the paste, fiji for fj in the -main
09:52	duck1123	rhickey: Do you need the CA's mailed to you, or is it ok to scan it and email you the PDF?
09:53	leafw	I hope I don't need to save the .clj file under the hierachy of folders specified in its namespace?
09:53	Chouser	leafw: yes, I think you do.
09:53	leafw	argh
09:54	leafw	now that is ugly.
09:54	Chouser	leafw: embrace the javaness :-/
09:54	leafw	precisely, clojure was freeing me of it.
09:54	duck1123	is it still possible to store it somewhere else if you use load? or is that gone?
09:55	duck1123	not that doing that was a very good idea
09:55	Chouser	you can put the .clj wherever you want, unless you want to use compile, require, use, etc. on it. For those, it has to be in a well-known place so they can find it.
09:57	leafw	still fails, ... this is frustrating
10:00	Chouser	make sure you lib loads okay with (require 'my.lib) first
10:01	leafw	it's all in the same file, like the example in the webpage
10:01	leafw	don't think one needs to require the self file
10:01	cemerick	conforming to some kind of package/namespace directory convention is necessary for any kind of useful module system. We happen to be reusing java's approach, but I'm not sure that anything bad comes out of that.
10:01	leafw	Chouser: but I see that logically there may be an imports problem
10:47	leafw	I am either profoundly stupid, or the gen-class needs a very, very detailed hold-my-hand tutorial. No matter what, I always get java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate .... something is just plain unintuitive to me with the gen-class implied requirements.
10:48	Chouser	leafw: I've not used gen-class as a stand-alone call like that (since AOT anyway), I've always just used :gen-class in the ns macro call.
10:48	leafw	Chouser: on the ns macro call I can't get it to work either.
10:49	rhickey	leafw: have you tried the examples here? : http://clojure.org/compilation
10:50	leafw	my setup: ./fj/tests/process/imageprocessor-filter.clj , and that file declares (ns fj.tests.process.FloatProcessorPlus ..., and I am trying to compile it from a Repl started at the parent folder of ./fj/ folder.
10:51	rhickey	leafw: you shouldn't have dashes in your file names, the lib system will map 'blah-filter to blah_filter.clj
10:51	Chouser	what you pasted looks like you're trying to create a class named fiji.process.FloatProcessorPlus -- are you saying you've changed that now?
10:51	leafw	ok, first hint ... changing to underscores
10:51	rhickey	but you should get the examples to work first
10:52	leafw	Chouser: yes. I have several versions now.
10:52	Chouser	heh, ok.
10:53	leafw	trying examples. So I understand the gen-class example should be put in a file named [a-zA-Z_]+.clj, and put in a subfolder according to its namespace
10:54	leafw	so a file named instance.clj under ./clojure/examples/ folder.
10:55	rhickey	leafw: that . above could be any directory in the classpath
10:55	leafw	rhickey: sorry, I don't copy
10:56	leafw	that dot ? In the file name ?
10:56	rhickey	no, the first dot, sorry
10:56	leafw	rhickey: of course.
10:57	leafw	I meant ./clojure/examples/ as the folder relative to where I instantiate the Repl
10:57	leafw	but never mind
10:58	leafw	the example compiles.
10:58	rhickey	well, the classpath part is important, even if it's . it must be in classpath
10:59	leafw	and it runs as well.
11:01	leafw	but mine doesn't. Such is life
11:08	RSchulz	AWizzArd mentioned a new JDK release. It reminds me that I got two JVM crashes yesterday while running Clojure
11:11	abrooks	RSchulz: I've had several JVM crashes with Sun Java 1.6.0_05-b13
11:11	Chouser	RSchulz: I've gotten a couple JVM crashes, but usually when mucking with native libs, and never repeatably
11:11	abrooks	I thought that wasn't supposed to happen...
11:12	stuarthalloway	Chouser: your own native libs?
11:13	abrooks	stuarthalloway: QT jambi, I think.
11:14	stuarthalloway	abrooks: no way JVM can protect from badly behaved third party native lib
11:14	stuarthalloway	write once, debug everywhere...
11:15	Chouser	Not my own native libs. Qt Jambi was the most recent.
11:15	Chouser	I didn't check the stack trace to see if it was actually from the native lib of not.
11:16	abrooks	stuarthalloway: Naturally. I belive I've had JVM crashes without using third-party native libs. (Naturally there's
11:16	abrooks	...JNI libs as part of the JRE.
11:16	abrooks	)
11:16	abrooks	Frickin' fat fingers.
11:16	RSchulz	abrooks: It's certainly _not_ supposed to happen. Any more than your OS kernel should crash. It is by definition a bug.
11:16	RSchulz	...Unless there's a hardware problem, of course, but I'm pretty sure that's not what I'm seeing.
11:17	RSchulz	Though of course no one minds "Frickin'"...
11:17	stuarthalloway	RSchulz: but if you are using even one third party native lib, it may be to blame, even if the stack trace or core dump appears to blame Java
11:17	RSchulz	I guess drewr and I are both fogey / curmudgeons, then?
11:18	RSchulz	Yeah, but I'm not using any JNI that isn't part of the Sun JVM / JDK.
11:18	RSchulz	And I'm not talking about Java exceptions, I'm talking about the JVM process crashing outright.
11:18	RSchulz	As in: SIGBUS (0x7) at pc=0x40277c83, pid=17260, tid=1075825584
11:20	leafw	rhickey: got it to work -- not quite, now errors: for example, the :imports in the ns macro are not seen from the body of the file itself, which surprises me.
11:21	abrooks	stuarthalloway: BTW, when are you expecting round two of reviews?
11:21	stuarthalloway	abrooks: expecting to ship to reviewers, or have them back
11:22	RSchulz	stuarthalloway: Are we supposed to send book review feedback to you?
11:22	stuarthalloway	I am finishing the macro chapter today. It usually takes the publisher 48 hours to review and post a Beta
11:22	RSchulz	I have very little, but some.
11:22	RSchulz	stuarthalloway: If you've already dealt with the :: and #=(...) notations, then I have nothing to add. Have you?
11:22	stuarthalloway	You can send feedback directly to me, or to my editor Susannah Pfalzer
11:23	RSchulz	OK
11:23	Chouser	stuarthalloway: I can't seem to pull new betas from the web site, am I supposed to be able to?
11:23	stuarthalloway	RSchulz: I have dealt with them, but not sufficiently :-)
11:23	stuarthalloway	Chouser: that process seems to be manual for the publisher
11:23	leafw	nm
11:23	RSchulz	OK. But since you're aware of it, then there's nothing else for me to say. But I do eagerly await new chapters.
11:24	RSchulz	stuarthalloway: Also, will you be bring the AOT compilation stuff in line with the recent changes? I noticed it's considerably out-of-date, now.
11:24	stuarthalloway	Apparently most reviewers are not energetic enough to read every beta, so they don't automatically do it
11:24	stuarthalloway	RSchulz: This beta will not update the AOT stuff. I like to let things be live for a few weeks so in case direction changes I don't have to rewrite twice.
11:25	RSchulz	stuarthalloway: Are change-bars a possibility in successive releases? That would make it easy to give better feedback even on chapters we've already read.
11:25	abrooks	stuarthalloway: Both. Originally you had said that you split reviewers into two groups, the latter to review in December (I'm in that group).
11:26	stuarthalloway	abrooks: The published currently plans to go second round when the book is prose complete
11:26	abrooks	stuarthalloway: RSchulz: change bars +1
11:26	stuarthalloway	I am going to request instead that they go this week (Beta 4) since so many people seem eager to review
11:27	abrooks	stuarthalloway: Okay, great! :)
11:27	RSchulz	I notice a tomhickey in the Nick list. Is he a relative of Rich's?
11:27	drewr	RSchulz: Brother.
11:27	leafw	success ... the :gen-class in the ns confused me: it expected a closed () block. And didn't complain when it had other keywords in it such as :import, etc. that affect the ns, not the :gen-class
11:27	RSchulz	He did the Web site? I really like that site design.
11:28	drewr	Yep.
11:28	stuarthalloway	Talented family.
11:28	RSchulz	But I'd still like a printing CSS that shrinks the font size and omits the index side-bar.
11:28	abrooks	stuarthalloway: The beta PDF purchase allows regular beta PDF updates (and a final PDF), I assume.
11:28	stuarthalloway	abrooks: You bet
11:28	drewr	The logo is my favorite.
11:29	abrooks	drewr: Ditto. The logo is every bit as brilliant as the language... if a little less useful.
11:30	RSchulz	stuarthalloway: I'm all for pushing up the release schedule. I, too, am anxious to see more. I really need to acquire an FP mindset. I don't know if a book can do that, but...
11:30	Chouser	RSchulz: projecteuler can do it
11:31	abrooks	RSchulz: I suggest spending some time with Clojure and http://ProjectEuler.net . The problems lend to functional.... darn you Chouser ... ;-)
11:31	Chouser	:-)
11:31	RSchulz	Chouser, abrooks: Thanks for the refernce. I'll give that a look-see.
11:32	Chouser	it can also suck away all your free time
11:32	RSchulz	Free what?
11:33	Chouser	ok, then it'll suck away non-free time that you ought to be using for something important
11:33	danlarkin	instantrimshot.com
11:33	RSchulz	Or for the mouse-addicted: http://instantrimshot.com/
11:36	RSchulz	Was Euler the guy who found the short-cut answer to the sum of all the integers from 1 to 100 as a schoolchild?
11:36	RSchulz	Or should I say, "shortcut way to answer"
11:36	holmak	I want to say it was Gauss
11:37	holmak	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauss
11:37	stuarthalloway	abrooks, RSchulz: the change bars may be tough given the markup language used to build the book, but I will ask
11:37	holmak	First section, second paragraph
11:38	RSchulz	stuarthalloway: What are you using? DocBook? TeX?
11:38	holmak	Good story, that
11:38	RSchulz	OK. Gauss it is. The nature of the those Project Euler problems made me think of that story.
11:39	holmak	Have you been doing Project Euler problems for Clojure practice
11:39	holmak	?
11:40	Chouser	holmak: yes, several people have.
11:41	Chouser	holmak: some of the solutions are available on a wiki, though I personally never look there until I've solved it myself -- more fun this way. :-)
11:41	Chouser	clojurebot: projecteuler?
11:41	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithsc�al?
11:41	Chouser	clojurebot: project euler?
11:41	clojurebot	project euler is http://clojure-euler.wikispaces.com/
11:41	holmak	I should do that, seems like a solid plan -- working on them, not copying from the wiki.
11:41	Chouser	I do like to refer to the wiki afterwards to see what tricks I may have missed.
11:47	RSchulz	stuarthalloway: Noun- and verb-based programming?
11:47	RSchulz	(I just got a PragProg blurb in the mail.)
11:48	stuarthalloway	Reference to http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/03/execution-in-kingdom-of-nouns.html
11:48	RSchulz	Ah. That one's new to me. As is so much since I stepped through the looking glass into the world of Clojure and FP...
11:48	stuarthalloway	I expect most Lisp programmers would get approximately 0 out of the podcast
11:49	stuarthalloway	while hopefully the choice of casual language like "nouns" and "verbs" will appeal to some Blub programmers
11:51	RSchulz	It kind of reminds me of the arguments in favor of REST. At least superficially.
11:51	RSchulz	Or is it the opposite?
11:51	RSchulz	I had no idea PragProg had a podcast series.
11:52	RSchulz	More stuff to keep my ears occupied while I try to concentrate on other things...
12:54	abrooks	clojurebot: project euler is http://ProjectEuler.net
12:54	clojurebot	In Ordnung
12:54	abrooks	clojurebot: clojure euler is http://clojure-euler.wikispaces.com/
12:54	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
12:55	hiredman	uh
12:55	abrooks	hiredman: Is that not okay?
12:55	hiredman	that is fine
12:59	mattrepl	hrmm, is there a way to refer in static methods of a Java class? e.g., (refer 'java.lang.Math :only '(sin cos))
12:59	stuarthalloway	mattrepl: there is a contrib from Stuart Sierra that does that
12:59	kotarak	mattrepl: there is importstatic
13:00	stuarthalloway	clojure.contrib.import-static
13:00	mattrepl	thanks
13:09	RSchulz	Can clojurebot do any pattern-oriented look-up? Regexes, e.g.?
13:09	hiredman	RSchulz: not currently
13:10	RSchulz	Would it make sense to add something of that sort?
13:10	hiredman	yes
13:10	hiredman	very much so
13:10	hiredman	I would like look ups to be a lot fuzzier
13:10	RSchulz	You know... As a guy who has seen all of Futurama 17 times over but is new IRC, I keep seeing a funky robot in my mind whenever I see "clojurebot."
13:11	hiredman	clojurebot: bender is my idol
13:11	clojurebot	In Ordnung
13:11	hiredman	clojurebot: bender?
13:11	clojurebot	bender is my idol
13:12	RSchulz	Remind me to stay at least ten feet away from clojurebot at all times...
13:13	RSchulz	I need my wallet.
15:40	sethtrain	im just getting into clojure but plan on recording my process along the way, first video... http://vimeo.com/2419596
16:04	charliekilo	sethtrain: very nice ... which I had that before I figued it out myself ... looking forward to next one ... q: what is your background? Java? Lisp? Ruby? Smalltalk? All of the above?
16:06	charliekilo	sethtrain: any reason you don't use Aquamacs Emacs?
16:07	charliekilo	sethtrain: would be nice to enable and show the 'function keys pressed'
16:08	sethtrain	charliekilo: trying to stay emacs pure i guess, background is Python
16:08	sethtrain	some Ruby though
16:08	sethtrain	played in Java, C, etc. but nothing production.
16:09	RSchulz	I've got a Lisp buddy who hatest the Mac and didn't like Aquamacs, either. For one thing, he's addicted to "focus follows mouse."
16:10	hiredman	oh, so he likes the correct behavior?
16:10	Chouser	my mouse follows focus. I don't think I could stand any "normal" window manager anymore.
16:10	RSchulz	Yes (binding [correct 'the-old-old-OLD-school-way] (run-Bruce))
16:11	hiredman	mouse follows focus? is that some kind of tiling window manager thing?
16:11	gnuvince	Chouser: tile wm user?
16:11	charliekilo	so what does he do: Emacs in full-screen iterm?
16:11	hiredman	I imagine he just doesn't mac os
16:11	RSchulz	He just grumbles a lot.
16:11	Chouser	hiredman: nice! yes, I use ion3 despite the oddities of its creator.
16:12	gnuvince	Chouser: figured so.
16:12	RSchulz	It doesn't matter. He won't have to use it fro long. His company went under and they're shutting down operations...
16:12	gnuvince	Chouser: did you try some of the alternatives? dwm, xmonad, awesome, etc.?
16:13	abrooks	awesome sucks.
16:13	abrooks	xmonad is well done but automatic and not what I want (and I really don't feel like hacking enough Haskell to make it so).
16:16	Chouser	gnuvince: no, not really. Friends have hacked together ion configs that work well enough for me. One less thing I've had to learn deeply... :-)
16:27	Chouser	(??? [1 2 3]) ==> ([1] [1 2] [1 2 3])
16:28	gnuvince	Chouser: that function doesn't exist in Clojure, but it's be called inits
16:29	gnuvince	From Haskell:
16:29	gnuvince	Prelude Data.List> inits [1,2,3]
16:29	gnuvince	[[],[1],[1,2],[1,2,3]]
16:30	Chouser	gah, I know it's come up before...
16:32	hiredman	some sort of reduce
16:32	Chouser	oh, in fact I've asked this before.
16:32	gnuvince	At worst:
16:32	gnuvince	user=> (map #(take % [1 2 3]) (range (+ 1 (count [1 2 3]))))
16:32	gnuvince	(nil (1) (1 2) (1 2 3))
16:32	Lau_of_DK	Good evening everyone
16:33	kotarak	Hi Lau
16:33	Chouser	http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-07-10.html#14:18
16:41	drewolson	Chouser: cool implementation. what is the complexity of reverse?
16:42	Chouser	O(n)
16:55	abrooks	reverse is also non-lazy.
16:55	abrooks	drewolson: --^
16:55	abrooks	That is to say, eager.
16:55	ericthorsen	Are we still able to have hyphens in namespaces? It appears my dir/file_name with namespace dir.file-name gets an error from load now when I attempt AOT compile
16:56	ericthorsen	if I change the namespace to use the underscore I'm good
16:56	Chouser	ericthorsen: I was just testing that today, and wasn't having any problems
16:56	drewolson	abrooks: yeah, i remember reading that
16:57	ericthorsen	Chouser: hmm....let me look at this again.
16:58	hiredman	clojurebot: mock objects is <reply>Your mock object is a joke; that object is mocking you. For needing it. -- rhicky
16:58	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
17:01	Chouser	ericthorsen: My test namespace was using :gen-class -- is yours?
17:02	ericthorsen	Chouser: no.
17:02	ericthorsen	Chouser: i guess I better read the docs again :)
17:02	Chouser	let me try without..
17:03	ericthorsen	Chouser: I thought I only needed that when I wanted a java class consumable by java
17:03	ericthorsen	Chouser: I'm just AOT compiling an existing clojure source
17:04	Chouser	no, you're right.
17:04	Chouser	I just compiled and used a namespace named bar.a-b without a problem
17:05	ericthorsen	Chouser: ok..thanks...i'll break it down and see what i can find
17:05	Chouser	this is svn 1142
17:08	Chouser	clojurebot: svn
17:08	clojurebot	svn co https://clojure.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/clojure clojure
17:08	Chouser	hm.
17:09	hiredman	clojurebot: latest?
17:09	clojurebot	latest is 1142
17:09	technomancy	hiredman: is that using the SVN polling that I wrote?
17:10	hiredman	cough
17:10	hiredman	ahem
17:10	ericthorsen	Chouser: same here - 1142
17:10	Chousuke	hm
17:10	hiredman	I feel kind of bad, last night I wrote my own svn polling using svn's xml log output
17:10	Chousuke	the github mirror is 9 revisions behind :/
17:11	hiredman	technomancy: http://gist.github.com/31479
17:11	technomancy	hiredman: ah, no worries.
17:11	technomancy	hiredman: would appreciate feedback on why you wrote your own though
17:11	technomancy	just didn't like the idea of shelling out?
17:11	hiredman	oh
17:11	hiredman	I did shell out
17:11	hiredman	a few things
17:12	hiredman	I would rather use the xml log from svn
17:12	technomancy	that was basically my first clojure, so you won't hurt my feelings. =)
17:12	hiredman	standard string munging instead of, less standard string munging
17:12	technomancy	yeah, I didn't know XML output was an option from the SVN client; I was looking for something like that directly from the sourceforge site.
17:13	hiredman	and clojurebot's (define ...) just wasn't going to work for this
17:13	technomancy	why's that?
17:13	hiredman	it tries to acknowledge that you defined something
17:13	hiredman	clojurebot: a is b
17:13	clojurebot	c'est bon!
17:13	technomancy	hiredman: oh, heh; of course.
17:14	hiredman	and the last line, threads don't just loop
17:14	hiredman	they run and stop, unless you loop
17:14	technomancy	that's what I get for not trying it out live I guess. =)
17:15	hiredman	yeah, I have that advantage
17:16	hiredman	clojurebot: latest is 0
17:16	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
17:16	technomancy	hiredman: ah, you put the limit in the svn invocation rather than using take. guess that makes sense too.
17:16	hiredman	so in > five minutes we should get the last five revs
17:17	hiredman	technomancy: it helps
17:17	hiredman	and with the the xml it is easy to get a structured seq of revisions, which I can just filter for stuff newer then what is latest
17:18	technomancy	hiredman: I haven't gotten to the XML-as-sequences chapter yet. =)
17:18	hiredman	ugh
17:18	hiredman	I still seem to have some kind of threading issues with it though
17:19	hiredman	like some how latest just go bumped back up to 1142, and no messages sent
17:19	technomancy	=(
17:19	hiredman	yeah
17:20	hiredman	it does that sometimes, moving all of svn-message into the dosync helped but has not completely fixed that
17:21	technomancy	hiredman: doesn't svn-summaries get called outside the dosync though?
17:21	technomancy	since svn-message's args get eval'd before it's called?
17:21	technomancy	oh... unless it's lazy
17:21	hiredman	yeah, but that should be fine
17:21	hiredman	wait
17:21	hiredman	ugh
17:22	hiredman	side effects in my transactions
17:22	hiredman	mea culpa
17:22	ericthorsen	Chouser: The use case is that I have a namespace foo and then a namespace foo.bar.a-b
17:22	ericthorsen	Chouser: That is when I run into a problem
17:22	clojurebot	svn rev 1138; short print-dup for LazilyPersistenVectors made re-pattern identity for patterns, now find-doc works with patterns too
17:22	clojurebot	svn rev 1139; use prn as default print in main
17:22	clojurebot	svn rev 1140; fixed doc for main/repl
17:22	clojurebot	svn rev 1141; expose inherited protected fields that originate from farther up the hierarchy than the super class, patch from Matt Revelle
17:22	clojurebot	svn rev 1142; renamed clojure-print.clj, clojure-proxy.clj to clojure_...
17:22	hiredman	clojurebot: dork
17:22	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithsc�al?
17:23	ericthorsen	Chouser: so compiling foo.clj and foo/bar/a-b.clj
17:23	lsmith[1]	afternoon everyone
17:24	rhickey	lsmith[1]: hi
17:24	lsmith[1]	I'm curious if anyone can give me some pointers on how to get clojure talking the code in an external .jar archive.
17:24	ericthorsen	Chouser: sorry...foo/bar.clj and foo/bar/a-b.clj
17:25	ericthorsen	Chouser: ava.lang.Exception: namespace 'foo.bar' not found after loading '/foo/bar'
17:27	clojurebot	svn rev 1138; short print-dup for LazilyPersistenVectors made re-pattern identity for patterns, now find-doc works with patterns too
17:27	clojurebot	svn rev 1139; use prn as default print in main
17:27	clojurebot	svn rev 1140; fixed doc for main/repl
17:27	clojurebot	svn rev 1141; expose inherited protected fields that originate from farther up the hierarchy than the super class, patch from Matt Revelle
17:27	clojurebot	svn rev 1142; renamed clojure-print.clj, clojure-proxy.clj to clojure_...
17:28	rhickey	lsmith[1]: just put the jar in your classpath java -cp clojure.jar:other.jar ...
17:28	lsmith[1]	and it will find the contents automatically. Yep, that makes sense.
17:28	lsmith[1]	thanks
17:29	Chouser	ericthorsen: does one :require the other?
17:29	lsmith[1]	no
17:29	lsmith[1]	how would that affect things?
17:31	ericthorsen	Chouser: yes
17:31	Chouser	ericthorsen: foo.bar requires a-b I assume?
17:32	ericthorsen	Chouser: (ns foo.bar.a-b
17:32	ericthorsen	(:use foo.bar))
17:32	Chouser	oh, ok.
17:32	ericthorsen	Chouser: (ns foo.bar.a-b (:use foo.bar))
17:34	Chouser	ericthorsen: are you sure you have ./classes in your classpath? I can't get this to fail.
17:37	lsmith[1]	Is there a way to get the current classpath from within clojure?
17:38	kotarak	(System/getProperty "java.class.path")
17:39	rhickey	(filter #(re-find #"path" %) (keys (System/getProperties)))
17:43	lsmith[1]	appreciate it. I take it I can set it using (System/setProperty "java.class.path"
17:45	technomancy	hiredman: any other features you've got in mind for clojurebot that I could screw up^W^Whelp with?
17:46	holmak	I am trying to use require with the :as option -- http://paste2.org/p/110354 -- but I think I have the syntax wrong. I can't find any examples or require with :as anywhere.
17:53	kotarak	holmak: (require '[cobalt.vector :as cv]) (vector and vec are already used. Don't know whether this interferes.
17:53	danlarkin	kotarak: don't you ever sleep? :)
17:54	kotarak	danlarking: Well. It's ten to midnight. So this point will certainly arrive soon. ;)
17:54	Lau_of_DK	Chouser: Thanks for commenting your code
17:55	holmak	kotarak: Works fine, thanks. I couldn't find an example of require ... :as anywhere, oddly enough.
17:55	holmak	It doesn't help that you can't google for ":require :as" meaningfully
17:56	hiredman	technomancy: url logging
17:56	hiredman	fuzzy lookup
17:56	hiredman	well, it already logs urls
17:56	hiredman	just not sure what to do with it
17:56	hiredman	maybe an rss feed?
18:05	AWizzArd	What is the syntax in ns for requiring clojure.contrib.sql :as sql and clojure.contrib.duck-streams :as ds ?
18:06	kotarak	(ns foo.bar (:require (clojure.contrib [sql :as sql] [duck-streams :as ds])))
18:06	AWizzArd	thx
18:06	kotarak	np
18:15	technomancy	hiredman: one of the #emacs bots creates tinyurls for any URLs above a certain length
18:15	technomancy	but I'm not sure that's terrbily useful
18:16	hiredman	there is an irc channel that I got kicked out of that had a bot that made an rss feed of all the urls in the channel
18:16	hiredman	that was very nice
18:16	duck1123	the bot i #swig does something like that
18:17	duck1123	yo can also comment and title the links
18:17	technomancy	that shouldn't be too hard provided that it's running on a box that can serve files up
18:17	hiredman	it is running on my web server conviently enough
18:18	technomancy	how nice. I'll try my hand at that.
18:18	technomancy	seems like it'd be easy to test, too
18:18	technomancy	without a connection to an actual IRC server
18:36	charliekilo	noob question: What is the preferred persistence library in Clojure connecting to (a) RDMBS/MySQL, (b) 'Functional DBMS'?
18:36	duck1123	clojure.contrib.sql
18:37	duck1123	for a at least
18:37	duck1123	for b, zip-filter?
18:42	charliekilo	duck1123: thanks ... I assume zip-filter is in cotrib as well ... so there is nothing like 'AllegroCache'?!?
18:43	technomancy	charliekilo: some folks have experimented with terracotta, which IIRC is similar
18:43	duck1123	is it in java?
18:43	technomancy	yeah
18:43	duck1123	if it's in java, it's in clojure
18:44	duck1123	just not as elegant
18:44	duck1123	I've been working with the jena library, man is that a pain.
18:46	RSchulz	Terracatto came up on the Clojure group / list a while bat (10/18). The subject was "Clojure + Terracotta"
18:46	RSchulz	('cept they spelled it correctly...)
18:51	charliekilo	thanks ... terracotta looks interesting ...
19:03	lsmith[1]	any canadians in the audience
19:03	lsmith[1]	?
19:06	technomancy	I don't think IRC channels have audiences. =)
19:07	lsmith[1]	lol
19:20	rsynnott	they do if you attach them to a text-to-speech thingy
19:21	cemerick	rhickey: are nested anonymous literal fns a future possibility?
19:21	rhickey	cemerick: you mean nested #()s?
19:22	cemerick	rhickey: yeah. I guess the % forms would get messy pretty quick.
19:22	rhickey	that's why I disallowed it
19:22	cemerick	just curious :-)
19:23	cemerick	it's a nutty edge case, certainly
19:23	rhickey	anytime I've done that in Mathematica I've confused myself
19:47	lisppaste8	grkz pasted "what would be the canonical clojure equivalent?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71552
19:47	technomancy	why does clojure-contrib contain two copies of each lib?
19:47	technomancy	eg duck_streams.clj and duck_streams/duck_streams.clj ?
19:48	grkz	technomancy: I think because of the namespace changes a few weeks ago; everything was "lifted up" one step
19:48	Chouser	grkz: right
19:48	technomancy	so it's a transitionary thing?
19:49	Chouser	technomancy: yes.
19:49	technomancy	gotcha; thanks
19:49	technomancy	so the new rules don't require the last directory then?
19:49	Chouser	right
19:49	technomancy	cool, seemed a bit verbose.
19:50	Chouser	namespace: foo.bar.bing-bang, file: foo/bar/bing_bang.clj
19:50	RSchulz	Do I understand that the fully qualified namespace name did not change? Just how that name maps to a file name (in the FS or a JAR file)?
19:50	Chouser	if you use :gen-class, the class would be named foo.bar.bing_bang
19:51	Chouser	RSchulz: If I understand what you're saying, yes.
19:52	RSchulz	I mean that, for contrib specifically, the individual modules did not change namespaces, but what file the compiler / namespace code looks for when you (use ...) or (require ...) that namespace did change.
19:52	Chouser	RSchulz: yes, that's correct.
19:52	RSchulz	OK.
19:53	RSchulz	I'm curious. What was it decided that a hyphen in a namespace name should map to an underscore in the file name? Surely there are no modern filesystems that prohibit hyphen in file or directory names.
19:53	Chouser	grkz: you're trying to wrap a bunch of Java features in a nice Clojure api?
19:53	RSchulz	(_Why_ was it decided...)
19:53	Chouser	RSchulz: I've been wondering that myself, but just thought of something earlier -- class and package names.
19:54	RSchulz	Yeah, that's what I was wondering.
19:54	rsynnott	RSchulz: possibly something to do with dealing wih things from the java end?
19:54	rsynnott	java will interpret the hyphen as numeric subtraction, I think
19:55	grkz	Chouser: I'm trying to figure out how to append a string to a file (and create the file if it doesn't exist), nothing more than that :-) I have no Java background whatsoever (the code in the paste is Common Lisp btw)
19:55	Chouser	the class has to be named with a _ and so any class file names or package directories would have to have _
19:55	RSchulz	Sort of. If you tried to reference that from Java code, you couldn't. The FQ class name or the import would be syntactically invalid.
19:55	RSchulz	It's just like Alan Perlis said: "Syntactic sugar leads to cancer of the semicolon."
19:55	Chouser	grkz: oh! sorry, I assumed you just made it up. :-)
19:57	technomancy	the irony of adding thread-safety to the JRuby project at work while I learn Clojure on the side is just too much.
19:58	Chouser	"adding thread-safety"? ha.
19:58	technomancy	you laugh at my pain? =(
19:58	RSchulz	Just write it all in Clojure and put a thin JRuby wrapper over it and don't tell anyone until it's a fait accompli!
19:58	powr-toc	technomancy: lol... how are you finding JRuby anyway?
19:59	Chouser	grkz: I would normally recommend duck-streams, but I don't know if it has any way to append to an existing file.
19:59	technomancy	powr-toc: it's not bad. the main problem is the load time is lousy when you're using AR, so TDD cycles are slow
19:59	RSchulz	What's the gist of Duck Streams?
19:59	powr-toc	technomancy: yeah, I implemented a prototype for a system last year in JRuby... I found the same thing
19:59	Chouser	uses a bit of introspection to abstract away a lot of Java io api druft.
20:00	Chouser	cruft
20:00	technomancy	powr-toc: it's gotten much better since I started working on it in May
20:00	technomancy	back then rubygems was nigh-unusable
20:00	technomancy	but activesupport is still activesupport... =\
20:00	powr-toc	technomancy: yeah, I did have problems with gems for a while... but since 1.0.1 (or whatever it was) it did seem to improve...
20:00	technomancy	easiest fix is probably to just move to datamapper
20:01	grkz	Chouser: ok, thanks. I'll have a look through duck-streams
20:01	RSchulz	How much documentation (besides the code and its (doc ...) strings) is there for Clojure Contrib?
20:02	powr-toc	technomancy: I reimplemented the AR code with ActiveObjects instead... it's very easy to adopt a rails AR schema, with pluralisation etc...
20:02	RSchulz	What do you think about a Hibernate API specifically for Clojure? Useful? Necessary? Superfluous?
20:03	technomancy	powr-toc: huh. I don't know any Java, but datamapper looks promising
20:05	powr-toc	technomancy: Yeah, I know a decent ruby guy who says good things about it, he described it as a "bit more sugary"
20:05	technomancy	a bit less magic is what I'm looking for. all that const_missing and method_missing is hell on your backtraces
20:05	powr-toc	technomancy: true
20:05	lisppaste8	Chouser annotated #71552 with "append to file (for grkz)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71552#1
20:08	powr-toc	technomancy: my biggest problem with JRuby was bridging it from the Java side into java... There were lots of corner cases, particularly around Exception propogation between languages that had very skeletal support (I actually got a patch commited concerning this)
20:09	technomancy	yeah, exception interop has improved
20:09	powr-toc	that's one of things I like about clojure though, is that the semantics around language integration are far cleaner, because clojure is trying to be a java language
20:09	technomancy	I don't know anything about calling JRuby from Java though
20:10	technomancy	powr-toc: yeah, backwards-compatibility is holding JRuby back in a way... though in another way it's kind of the point.
20:10	technomancy	but you get the feeling there are a lot of things they wish they could do differently.
20:10	grkz	Chouser: many thanks, exactly what I was after :-)
20:12	powr-toc	technomancy: well it was a little volatile for a while... I first tried to implement it through the scripting API, but found some things weren't supported... so then I switched to using jruby's api, which is a hideous thing java side
20:12	powr-toc	I think the scripting api support has improved now though
20:12	powr-toc	technomancy: agreed.
20:13	technomancy	the scripting api is the stuff that was designed to support rhino?
20:13	powr-toc	technomancy: well, I think it supports rhino out of the box... but it's designed so other languages can implement it too
20:14	Chouser	grkz: yeah, so easy, isn't it? :-/ The 'true' is to append. You know your way around java docs?
20:16	duck1123	how come none of the fibonacci functions on the wiki use recur?
20:16	duck1123	it seems like they all should
20:16	powr-toc	duck1123: I think it's because they uses lazy seq's instead
20:17	duck1123	ok, I get it now
20:24	rsynnott	duck1123: I'm surprised they don't, as it's a useful teaching aid, but IIRC an iterative approach is somewhat more efficiet in that case
22:41	hiredman	clojurebot: latest?
22:41	clojurebot	latest is 1142
22:41	hiredman	clojurebot: latest is 1141
22:41	clojurebot	c'est bon!
22:48	clojurebot	svn rev 1142; renamed clojure-print.clj, clojure-proxy.clj to clojure_...
23:17	notallama	alright, so i want to use a key listener to assoc/dissoc the key code to a map. how can i be sure that keyReleased won't commit before keyPressed? will agents or commute garuntee that? should i have them increment/decrement a counter instead? (i don't care if it's wrong for a fraction of a second, but i don't want it to get stuck thinking a key is down when it's not)
23:18	notallama	or will the listener handle that?
23:22	lsmith[1]	Does anyone know if there is something akin to the "case" statement in CL? Any idea where it is documented?
23:24	jeremy___	would fcase work in clojure-contrib?
23:25	Chouser	notallama: I'm pretty sure the listener executes in the swing thread, and will get the events in order.
23:25	Chouser	notallama: if you then send from each event to the same agent, the agent will get the actions in order
23:25	jeremy___	lsmith[1]: http://clojure-contrib.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/clojure-contrib/trunk/src/clojure/contrib/fcase/fcase.clj?revision=150&view=markup
23:26	Chouser	notallama: if you were to send from the listener to two different agents (don't know why you'd do that) there's be no guarantee which would happen first.
23:26	lsmith[1]	I'll check it out. Thanks.