#clojure – 2008-12-06

2008-12-06

01:20	drewolson	which is more idiomatic: (into [1 2 3] [4 5 6]) or (vec (concat [1 2 3] [4 5 6]))
01:22	drewolson	don't think this sent before, but sorry if it's a repeat question. which is more idiomatic:
01:22	drewolson	(vec (concat [1 2 3] [4 5 6])) or (into [1 2 3] [4 5 6])
10:14	kib2	hi, anyone knows how to save a uft-8 text file with contrib.duck-streams ?
10:19	emacsen	if ORM is not the right way to handle databases, what is?
10:25	kib2	new SLIME slides : http://common-lisp.net/%7Etrittweiler/slime-talk-2008.pdf
10:26	dhaya	emacsen: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/79022b44684a9b38
10:27	emacsen	that doesn't answer my question- only affirms my initial statement
10:32	dhaya	"having very few data structures and very many general functions to manipulate".. i thought that answers your question. sorry if did not :)
10:41	Chouser	emacsen: I think what I want is a DSL for building queries that are returned as seqs of hash-maps.
10:41	emacsen	Chouser, yeah...
10:45	Chouser	no?
10:59	duck1123	do I have to do anything special to compile my namespace?
11:00	duck1123	I'm getting a "Could not initialize class ..." error
11:01	StartsWithK	duck1123: can you provide full paste of error?
11:03	lisppaste8	duck1123 pasted "First attempt at compiling a ns" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71696
11:04	duck1123	I'm not trying to generate classes yet, I'm just trying to compile
11:04	duck1123	or can I only compile if I'm using gen-class
11:05	duck1123	I have a "classes/" folder on the classpath, and this namespace is properly loaded
11:09	Chouser	duck1123: you don't need :gen-class
11:09	duck1123	actually, now that I've reloaded my repl, I'm getting a different error, so that's probably the cause of my problem
11:10	duck1123	I'm now getting an j.l.ExceptionInInitializerError need to find out why
11:13	duck1123	hmm... that must've been because it created a few class files, but not all of them. I removed the class files and it went away
11:13	Chouser	duck1123: If it helps diagnosis, I think that without :gen-clss you will not get a Java class named the same as your namespace.
11:17	duck1123	ok, When I try to do this in a straight repl, it works fine. It's just my repl-via-slime that's acting funky
11:18	duck1123	I moved a bunch of stuff around. (trying to get compojure to work with Tomcat) so that may be the problem.
11:19	StartsWithK	any old gen-class functions like gen and load?
11:19	StartsWithK	evals in macros?
11:19	StartsWithK	that made trouble for me with compiler
11:21	duck1123	I haven't gotten into any of that. This has been my first foray into compilation or class generation
11:21	duck1123	I wanted to get standard compilation down before I tried using gen-class
11:50	mattrepl	hrmm, how does declare a method has a return type of void using gen-class' :methods?
11:51	mattrepl	ah, the class type looks like it works. i.e., Void, not Void/TYPE
11:52	Chouser	I think 'void' should work. lowercase.
11:58	mattrepl	yup, it does
12:25	mattrepl	how about referencing the super, for example to get at the superclass' implementation of a method
12:38	Chouser	mattrepl: you need to call a super's method that has exactly the same signature as one you've overridden?
12:39	gnuvince_	Good morning
12:39	gnuvince_	(or afternoon I guess...)
12:39	mattrepl	Chouser: yeah, (. this SuperClass/foo arg) seems to work
12:40	Chouser	really!? good to know.
12:40	mattrepl	finishing testing, but it does something at least. =)
12:41	gnuvince_	Chouser: I don't know if you caught this message yesterday: map depends on every? for when you supply more than three collections, so using map inside every? to allow for an arbitrary number of args would probably not work
12:42	Chouser	gnuvince_: I saw that, thanks.
12:42	gnuvince_	OK
12:43	Chouser	but it only uses the single-collection form of 'every?', which wouldn't need to call 'map' so it actually might work ok.
12:44	gnuvince_	You would need to (declare map) before every however.
12:44	gnuvince_	Else the compiler won't let it pass.
12:44	Chouser	true
12:45	gnuvince_	What's the policy for submitting patches to contrib?
12:45	Chouser	you need to have a CA submitted.
12:45	gnuvince_	CA?
12:46	Chouser	Contributor Agreement: http://clojure.org/contributing
12:46	Chouser	Then you can post patches to the Google Group and whoever maintains the code you're patching can work with you to get it in.
12:47	Chouser	I think you could also petition rhickey for commit privs at that point, but I don't know of a formal process for that.
12:47	dudleyf	clojurebot: CA?
12:47	clojurebot	CA is Contributor Agreement: http://clojure.org/contributing
13:03	mattrepl	Chouser: scratch that, looks like it just recurses instead of calling super
13:04	mattrepl	I really didn't want to dig into bytecode today...
13:18	thearthur	I need an output queue, whats the best clojure structure for this?
13:18	thearthur	i will be adding data to it in small chunks and pulling it out in big chunks
13:19	thearthur	would a vector work for this?
13:19	thearthur	can you efficiently add to both ends of it and take subvectors?
13:25	Chouser	thearthur: do you want blocking on an empty queue?
13:26	Chouser	if so, you'll need something from java.util.concurrent, a BlockingQueue of some sort.
13:26	Chouser	If not, you may like clojure.lang.PersistentQueue
13:27	Chouser	vectors only grow or shrink efficiently on the right-hand end.
13:27	thearthur	Chouser, a blocking queue would be nice
13:27	thearthur	but i think I cna do with out it using agents
13:28	Chouser	ok. Currently Clojure doesn't wrap or provide any thread-blocking tools, but using the Java classes directly is pretty convenient.
13:28	thearthur	is persistentqueue on clojure.org?
13:29	Chouser	no, it's below the radar.
13:30	Chouser	Rich didn't want people using it and doing busy polling or anything I guess.
13:30	Chouser	clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY is an empty one
13:31	larrytheliquid	hm, i updated to clojure trunk yesterday and now im getting back nil for metadata on symbols (though collections work fine), anyone else experiencing this?
13:31	Chouser	then you can conj onto one end, and use peek/pop to consume on the other
13:32	Chouser	larrytheliquid: like (doc map) doesn't work?
13:32	larrytheliquid	(doc map) works, but ^clojure.core/map and ^map do not
13:32	clojurebot	No entiendo
13:33	larrytheliquid	nor does (meta clojure.core/map) or (meta map)
13:33	Chouser	larrytheliquid: functions have never had metadata
13:34	Chouser	^#'map gives you all the metadata on the var
13:34	larrytheliquid	ahh right, quoting to get the symbol instead of the function, my mistake
13:35	larrytheliquid	err var
13:35	larrytheliquid	Chouser: thx
13:39	Chouser	np
13:51	duck1123	is it generally to use gen-class to actually create the class, or just proxy it?
13:52	duck1123	I'm getting the feeling that Compojure won't work under Tomcat without extensive re-write
14:02	RSchulz	Don't overlook (proxy ...)
14:02	RSchulz	What is it about Tomcat that seems problematic?
14:02	RSchulz	And is it not true of other servlet container?
14:03	duck1123	can a proxied class be read by java outside clojure?
14:04	Lau_of_DK	Good evening gents
14:05	RSchulz	It doesn't produce a .class file, if that's what you mean.
14:06	RSchulz	Howdy, Lau. How're things with the Danes?
14:07	AWizzArd	Hi Lau
14:07	Chousuke	duck1123: The actual proxy class is anonymous, but you should be able to pass the instance to java using a reference typed as teh implemented class or interface.
14:08	duck1123	Compojure currently initializes the servlet container and proxies up a servlet for use. If I want to run a webapp with an external container (tomcat) I'm thinking I'm going to need to use gen-class to actually get the .class file
14:08	danlucraft	why is (first []) nil but (first '()) an exception?
14:08	RSchulz	duck1123: That's probably true. The servlet container parts are obviously handled by Tomcat itself.
14:08	RSchulz	Perhaps if you know enough about how it works inside, you could get it use existing (in-core) classes instead of .class files.
14:09	Chousuke	danlucraft: it isn't?
14:09	Chousuke	danlucraft: works just fine
14:09	Chousuke	danlucraft: are you using the release version?
14:09	RSchulz	But I don't think there's a portable way to do that, and you'd be stuck with Tomcat or have to replicate that work for ever servlet container you wanted to support.
14:09	duck1123	ok, that's what I was thinking. Compojure is compact and elegant, and completely unsuited to what I need.
14:09	danlucraft	Chousuke: no, svn.
14:10	RSchulz	I don't get an exception from (first '())
14:10	Chousuke	:/
14:10	Chousuke	anyway user=> (first '()) -> nil
14:10	danlucraft	not lying :) http://pastie.org/332764
14:11	danlucraft	hmmm, old revision. let me pull
14:12	RSchulz	duck1123: What is your need / use case?
14:12	danlucraft	OK works now. I pulled the revision recommended in the new PragProg book, which was from nov sometime.
14:13	Chousuke	the git clone for clojure is falling behind :/
14:13	duck1123	RSchulz: just to have a servlet environment that I can compile into a war
14:13	RSchulz	What's the Clojure aspect, then?
14:13	RSchulz	I guess AOT is the answer, right?
14:14	RSchulz	AOT compilation, that is.
14:14	duck1123	RSchulz: well, I have an app that I'm writing in clojure. I was yusing compojure, but I want/need to run it on tomcat, but I think I need to change some things first
14:15	duck1123	That's what I am thinking. Hopefully I can re-use some of these libraries though
14:16	RSchulz	I'd start with the simples thing, which is AOT compilation. I'm not sure how you get a static class that implements the appropriate Servlet type, but I'm sure it's possible and practical.
14:17	danlucraft	Chousuke, RSchulz: thanks for your help.
14:22	holmak	There is a length function for vectors _somewhere_, right? I can't find it anywhere.
14:22	duck1123	(doc count)
14:22	clojurebot	Returns the number of items in the collection. (count nil) returns 0. Also works on strings, arrays, and Java Collections and Maps; arglists ([coll])
14:22	holmak	Aha, I tried length and size. Thanks.
14:23	RSchulz	holmak: Always keep (find-doc) in mind. It does RE pattern matching against documentation strings, so with a bit of guessing, you can usually find what you're looking for, assuming it exists...
14:24	holmak	I tried searching through the online API section for "length" and "size", but the doc string sneakily avoids using those words.
14:25	holmak	Not to say that its inaccurate, I just didn't think of the right word to search for.
14:25	RSchulz	Yeah, it's hardly foolproof, but still very useful.
14:25	mon_key	need used-fors
14:26	RSchulz	Eh?
14:26	mon_key	standard librarian technique
14:26	duck1123	I've run into the same thing with distinct vs. uniq and rem vs mod
14:26	mon_key	'length' - use 'count'
14:26	RSchulz	Yeah. Actually, it's still an open problem how to really, truly deeply facilitate software reuse.
14:26	mon_key	'count' - used-for 'length'
14:27	mon_key	see iso z39.50
14:27	duck1123	clj-doc is also pretty handy for looking up functions
14:27	mattrepl	anyone see a reason why genclass methods should not support "super" as a keyword like Java?
14:29	RSchulz	What super keyword is that? gen-class supports :extends and :implements.
14:30	RSchulz	You mean to invoke superclass methods?
14:30	mattrepl	if in an implementation you need to refer to the superclass' implementation
14:30	mattrepl	yeah, invokespecial
14:30	RSchulz	There's something for that w.r.t. calling superclass constructors.
14:31	RSchulz	I think elsewhere you have to know the specific superclass you extended and refer to that class/method specifically.
14:33	mattrepl	I tried that, but it was calling the subclass' implementation still.
14:34	RSchulz	Interesting. That could be a bug. You might want to send message with an example to the mailing list / group.
14:34	RSchulz	Or, if not a bug, an oversight in the design.
14:35	mattrepl	weird.. I'm looking at bytecode from the Clojure compiler and it is using invokespecial... must be operator error, gonna go over my code again, something is causing it to recurse
14:37	duck1123	is there an easy tool for examining compiled .class files?
14:38	RSchulz	All I know of is javap...
14:38	RSchulz	I don't do that sort of thing much, obviously.
14:38	RSchulz	There's JAD, right?
14:38	duck1123	I think I remember Eclipse doing that, but I don't have it set up anymore
14:40	RSchulz	$100 shareware: http://www.freedownloadscenter.com/Programming/Java/ClassSpy.html
14:41	RSchulz	It better fix your code for you, for that price!
14:42	RSchulz	Here's a list of such tools: http://schmidt.devlib.org/java/class-file-optimizers.html
14:44	mattrepl	RSchulz: the syntax you believe should work is (. this a.b.SuperClass/foo arg)?
14:44	RSchulz	Do I believe that? I never knew I believed that!
14:44	RSchulz	It looks plausible, anyway.
14:45	mattrepl	hehe, perhaps wrong word choice, was referring to your comment 10 min ago or so. didn't know if you had tried it before and it worked
14:46	RSchulz	No, I'm just thinking out load... On the keyboard.
14:46	duck1123	RSchulz: I think JAD did what I need
14:47	RSchulz	Cool. Is that where you saw the invokespecial (an opcode I've seen, but don't understand. Don't understand _either_.)
14:48	RSchulz	duck1123: What OS do you use?
14:48	duck1123	Debian
14:49	Lau_of_DK	Hi RSchulz - All is well in the empire of Denmark
14:49	RSchulz	Empire?? I thought you folks had moved on from your imperial era!
14:50	Lau_of_DK	Nei - We shall in no way depart from our dominion of the peasants
14:50	RSchulz	duck1123: So far I've one one Mac-specific and one Windows-specific JAR file inspector.
14:50	RSchulz	OK, then Lau. I'll be sure to behave especially obsequiously toward you!
14:51	duck1123	RSchulz: I'm installing Netbeans to see if that'll do the trick
14:51	RSchulz	duck1123: There does appear to be an Eclipse plug-in. I hate Eclipse, though. I use IDEA and I suspect it has a suitable tool, but I'm not specifically aware of it.
14:51	Lau_of_DK	RSchulz: much appreciated
14:51	RSchulz	While you're at it with NetBeans, keep an eye out for the next release of Enclojure (expected within a week). The current one has some problems and isn't recommended.
14:52	duck1123	I used to be a big fan of Eclipse because it integrated nicely with Oxygen
14:52	duck1123	but now I'm strictly an emacs guy
14:53	RSchulz	I use <oXygen/>, though not much recently. I didn't know it had specific Eclipse tie-ins.
14:53	RSchulz	Well, Emacs is commendable, but I know Vi / Vim too well to change.
14:53	duck1123	and I have a feeling that I'm probably the only one here that actually likes xml
14:53	duck1123	XSLT was my first lisp
14:54	RSchulz	I (and I think many) have mixed feelings about XML. It's ugly as hell and a bit hard to work with, but too useful and ubiquitous to ignore.
14:54	mon_key	:) like lisp
14:54	RSchulz	Lisp: The only language you'll ever need.
14:54	Lau_of_DK	RSchulz: I think only Assembler can bear that title truthfully
14:55	duck1123	I wrote my entire application in a mix of XML, XHTML, XPL, XSLT, XQuery, and XForms
14:55	RSchulz	OK. I won't argue with that, but then ... what are you doing here??
14:55	RSchulz	duck1123: So... You're a masochist?
14:55	Lau_of_DK	RSchulz: Just trying to bring you guys up to speed, you can thank me at the after party
14:56	RSchulz	That would be the party after Denmark invades North & South America, East & South Asia, Africa and the rest of Europe??
14:57	julian_morrison	Hi all, made a start on my first Clojure wrapper lib http://github.com/JulianMorrison/neo4j-clojure/tree/master
14:58	RSchulz	Ah, Neo. Everything old is new again...
14:58	julian_morrison	heh
14:58	RSchulz	julian_morrison: The close paren snuck into the URL for the Neo4J link on your github page.
14:59	julian_morrison	gah
14:59	julian_morrison	I'll fix that next upload.
15:00	Chouser	proxy does create a .class file, if you compile, but not one with a name you should rely on.
15:00	duck1123	Chouser: I need to specify the class name in my web.xml file, so that won't work
15:01	Chouser	right, :gen-class is what you'll need then
15:01	rhickey	Chouser: there is now proxy-name, undocumented as yet, but probably will be
15:01	RSchulz	Chouser, duck1123: You guys might want to petition Rich for a change that would make proxy useful in this sort of situation.
15:01	RSchulz	I think he'd probably be amenable to something like that.
15:02	duck1123	RSchulz: It's going to be a pain to get this working, but I think I'll be better off with gen-class in the long run
15:02	julian_morrison	I know one change I'd petition for: make seq a multimethod
15:03	julian_morrison	the language is positively littered with (xyzzy-seq)
15:04	RSchulz	rhickey: What is the baseline overhead associated with multimethod dispatch?
15:04	julian_morrison	or failing that, define a multimethod to-seq and call it as a last-chance fallback
15:05	duck1123	can you add new methods to a multimethod from outside the namespace?
15:05	mattrepl	rhickey: is there currently a way to invoke a superclass' instance method from a subclass in a genclass method? the equivalent to "super.inheritedMethod()" in Java
15:05	Chouser	duck1123: yes
15:05	duck1123	ok
15:05	RSchulz	duck1123: I think namespaces and multimethod dispatch are orthogonal, so the answer should be "yes"
15:06	rhickey	julian_morrison: many of those seqs are on stateful things, so the explicit seq step is important to avoid aliasing, e.g. iterator-seq - things like iterators can't be considered implicitly seq-able as two independent seqs on the same iterator is a mistake
15:07	julian_morrison	rhickey, I'm not against explicit (seq (xyzzy))
15:07	julian_morrison	rhickey, I'm against ten thousand bitty little (xyzzy-seq (xyzzy))
15:08	rhickey	of the 9 I find from (find-doc "-seq"), 7 are that way
15:09	julian_morrison	or at least a single multimethod (seq-once-only (xyzzy))
15:09	rhickey	julian_morrison: the point is, seq is explicitly called, often more than once, for these things that's not safe
15:10	rhickey	maybe seq-on-mutable
15:11	stuarthalloway	rhickey: I need a name for the .. operator, so I have something to call it in the book. I like "threaded member access", what do you think?
15:11	julian_morrison	there is already (cache-seq)
15:11	rhickey	but I'm not spending time there as I think the right thing for those things is left-fold-enumerating
15:12	RSchulz	rhickey: But those considerations, while valid, are independent on the desire to have an "open" (seq ...) that programmers can extend, assuming they understand when it is and is not appropriate to do so.
15:12	Chouser	stuarthalloway: you've just going ignore all my advice to drop the .. operator?
15:12	rhickey	stuarthalloway: OK
15:12	Chouser	;-)
15:12	stuarthalloway	Chouser: glad to have this conversation with Rich here to guard my back! :-)
15:13	rhickey	Chouser: he is, on my advice :)
15:13	Chouser	ok, so how is .. better than -> ?
15:13	julian_morrison	.. is bad?
15:13	rhickey	.. is easy to explain to Java programmers - just stitch the calls together with dots
15:13	stuarthalloway	and it is more specific
15:13	Chouser	(-> foo .bar .baz) looks awefully pretty to me.
15:14	julian_morrison	I propose a name "put-dots-between" operator
15:14	Chouser	to mean the same as foo.bar.baz()
15:14	rhickey	Chouser: that's fine - you are no longer a beginner
15:14	stuarthalloway	so just as you might sometimes use a vector specific function to say "I have a vector" instead of "I have a seq", you might use .. to say "I have some Java" instead of just "I have some Clojure"
15:15	stuarthalloway	...which I believe is still valid (but not required!) even for non-beginners
15:15	stuarthalloway	let the archives show that Chouser wants to scare beginners :-)
15:15	Chouser	but you put a dot before every single method call, fairly screaming "this is java".
15:16	duck1123	I think I've only actually used -> once
15:16	julian_morrison	-> makes it easier for a haskelly person to understand
15:16	rhickey	RSchulz: there is an open type-based seq - it's called IPersistentCollection
15:16	stuarthalloway	Chouser: no, could say (-> foo (.java) (.moreJava) (.moreJava) (hahClojure))
15:17	stuarthalloway	I am certainly not questioning a coding standard of "always ->", just saying it might not be for everybody
15:18	rhickey	Imagine being in front of a room full of Java programmers - .. is much simpler to explain than ->
15:18	duck1123	when using gen-class, I have to remove the class files before I can call compile again, right?
15:18	mon_key	I'm out of my element but... what about `>.'
15:18	RSchulz	rhickey: I see. So duck1123 could proxy that? Possibly with a function or macro to syntactically sugar any patterned cases he has?
15:18	Chouser	That's exactly why -> is better -- it doesn't get you stuck in a java hole.
15:18	rhickey	RSchulz: I missed that part of the conversation
15:19	RSchulz	The original request was for (seq ...) as a multimethod. I assumed that was so it would be open.
15:19	Chouser	But having made my case, I'm certainly not going to try to stand against both you guys! :-)
15:19	aperotte	There might be something that I'm missing, but I can't get the basic :gen-class example to compile
15:19	RSchulz	And now Chouser must clean up the shards...
15:21	aperotte	I get a java.io.IOException :(
15:21	RSchulz	What is the "pronunciation" of ->?
15:22	duck1123	"that way"
15:22	RSchulz	Any other suggestions??
15:22	julian_morrison	just checking my understanding of (require) is right... if I (require 'abc') and there is on a classpath a dir "abc" containing file "abc.clj" which begins (ns abc ... then this will all work?
15:23	julian_morrison	RSchulz: "chain"
15:23	duck1123	julian_morrison: it should be (require 'abc)
15:23	julian_morrison	duck1123: you're right, that was a typo
15:23	RSchulz	Somehow the description of -> in the documentation does not convey to me what it does. It wasn't until I saw the use in the Zipper code that I realized what it did.
15:24	duck1123	also, post AOT, it'll just look for a file abc.clj the name isn't doubled anymore
15:24	julian_morrison	RSchulz: (-> a b c d) is (d (c (b a))) right?
15:24	duck1123	'foo.bar.abc becomes foo/bar/abc.clj
15:24	RSchulz	I think so. But it may be more general than that. I'm really not the person to be asking!
15:24	julian_morrison	duck1123: post AOT?
15:25	duck1123	there were some breaking changes a while back
15:25	duck1123	mostly, you just have to move your files
15:25	mon_key	.. can also be harder to build regexes for when refactoring in some IDEs
15:25	julian_morrison	someone needs to update (doc require)
15:26	mon_key	e.g. \$\(\.\.$
15:26	RSchulz	mon_key: What are you thinking about? I don't think refactoring can usually be specified in terms of REs. Regular Tree Expressions, maybe, but not conventional sequential REs.
15:28	mon_key	elsip to sub in/out a change with replace-regexp
15:29	mon_key	you windup having to escape the hell out of the `path' just to catch the .'s
15:29	Chouser	julian_morrison: you're right, that's exactly what -> does.
15:29	RSchulz	Well, like I said, REs are not a good tool for source code (or syntax tree) manipulation.
15:30	aperotte	Can someone tell me if my approach is correct? I copied the code for the :gen-class example into a hello.clj file and put it in "one of the cp folders"/clojure/examples/hello.clj then opened a repl and typed (compile 'clojure.examples.hello).
15:30	mon_key	you're prob. right
15:30	RSchulz	Chouser: You know, -> is really elegant, but its doc string just does not do it justice. If you didn't know what it did, you'd just never think it would be something you'd want to use.
15:30	duck1123	I had a hell of a time refactoring this morning. I was using really short namespaces, so I had a bunch of fully qualified calls all over the place
15:31	RSchulz	duck1123, mon_key: You guys should pass on your experiences to Peter Wolf (he's on the list). He's writing an IDEA plug-in for Clojure, and I think he wants to support refactoring (which is a classic strength of IDEA).
15:31	RSchulz	He should know what kind of use cases to address and what priority to assign, and real-world experience would help him with that, I think.
15:32	aperotte	I get a IOException saying "No such file or directory (hello.clj:1)
15:32	duck1123	is your classes folder on the clsspath
15:32	julian_morrison	duck1123: the moral is - pick what you need and then "use" it. Redundancy is effort waiting to happen.
15:33	duck1123	I just got hit with that
15:34	aperotte	hmm ... classes folder is not on the classpath
15:34	RSchulz	Stu's books includes the recommendation "Don't just require, Use!". But there are times that doesn't work.
15:35	RSchulz	(use 'clojure.zip) will fail 'cause it redefines two core functions.
15:35	duck1123	aperotte: if you're putting your classes folder somewhere else, do: (set! compile-path "WEB-INF/classes") or similar
15:35	RSchulz	The cover script I wrote for invoking Clojure from the CLI includes a +cp=classpath-addition option, which may be repeated, of course.
15:35	aperotte	duck1123: ok, I'll give it a try, thanks
15:35	RSchulz	Of course, that's no good for dynamic situations or non-CLI situations.
15:36	duck1123	I don't like using use too much because I have a lot of functions named the same with similar paths
15:37	RSchulz	Well, I guess that's unavoidable. It's one of the virtues of class-centered programming...
15:37	Chouser	RSchulz: I dislike the unqualified use of 'use'. 'use' with :only or :as is ok, but otherwise I really recommend 'require', perhaps with :as
15:37	duck1123	I've been doing things like: (:require net.mycyclopedia.model [view :as model-view]). previously, it was just model.view/foo
15:37	RSchulz	I can't disagree with that. Mostly 'cause I don't have enough experience with the down-sides of unrestricted (use ...).
15:38	Chouser	Of course we've already seen what respect my advice is getting today. :-D
15:38	RSchulz	Oh, now, you win some, you lose some.
15:39	rhickey	namespace separator is / specifically so alias/name is easy
15:39	duck1123	can you alias a whole section of a namespace, or can it only be the last segment?
15:39	rhickey	e.g. require :as is good
15:39	RSchulz	Yes. Aliasing is very nice. I miss not being able to assign type name aliases in Java. The more so since generics were introduced.
15:40	duck1123	I want to alias net.mycyclopedia.model to just model, so I can go back to model.view/foo
15:41	Chouser	duck1123: your alias can have dots in it
15:42	Chouser	(alias 'model.view 'net.mycyclopedia.model.view)
15:43	mon_key	lol just caught a funny "Imagine being in front of a room full of Java programmers - .. is much simpler to explain than ->" Not unlike explaining to a room full of lispers just cons it
15:43	mon_key	:)
15:44	duck1123	but I would have to alias every thing. I have things like model.user model.entry model.statements view.user, etc. right?
15:44	RSchulz	There's a Weird Rick Hickovic parody there: "Just Cons It!"
15:44	Chouser	yes. could write a macro to do it for you.
15:45	duck1123	hmm... not a bad idea... see not all of your ideas are being ignored today :)
15:47	duck1123	rhickey: I never got an answer from you the other day. Do you need the CA's mailed to you, or can I scan it and email?
15:48	rhickey	duck1123: please mail
15:50	rhickey	Chouser: do you have test case handy for reduction seq consumption?
15:50	lisppaste8	Chouser pasted "reduction tests" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71709
15:51	rhickey	Chouser: thanks
15:57	stuarthalloway	Chouser, RSchulz: I got pulled away for a few, but (contrary to my own book) I agree with Chouser about require and use
15:58	stuarthalloway	the advice about "just use" is appropriate for getting started
15:59	stuarthalloway	and later in the book I need to make a different recommendation
16:00	stuarthalloway	in the next beta, all the book examples that refer to contrib will do use/only
16:21	aperotte	duck1123: I put the classes folder on my classpath and still no luck with the compilation
16:25	duck1123	aperotte: what's it saying now
16:25	aperotte	duck1123: same, java.io.IOException: No such file or directory (hello.clj:1)
16:26	duck1123	aperotte: did it actually create the class files?
16:26	RSchulz	Where's the current / latest definition of (reduction ...)?
16:26	duck1123	and can you require that ns?
16:28	aperotte	duck1123: it didn't create the class files (ie I didn't find them anywhere on my classpath or in the classes folder)
16:28	aperotte	duck1123: do I need to put my clojure/examples/hello.clj in the classes folder?
16:28	duck1123	aperotte: it needs to be on the classpath
16:29	mon_key	aperotte: what OS are you using?
16:29	duck1123	is the namespace 'clojure.examples.hello
16:29	aperotte	mon_key: ubuntu hardy
16:30	aperotte	duck1123: yup, I copied straight from the website
16:31	duck1123	aperotte: and you are able to (require 'clojure.examples.hello)
16:32	aperotte	duck1123: yes, that worked fine
16:32	Chouser	RSchulz: Here's my latest valid version of 'reduction' http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/1c98053f10ea3e55
16:32	Chouser	Dunno if that's what rhickey's going to use or not.
16:33	Chouser	s/that's/either of those are/
16:33	RSchulz	Thanks.
16:34	aperotte	duck1123: the odd thing is that if I intentionally put an error in the hello.clj file, the call to compile catches it, but with the correct code it throws an IOException
16:35	mon_key	permissions?
16:36	duck1123	aperotte: I'm not sure then
16:36	aperotte	mon_key: I don't think so, everything's in my home directory
16:36	mon_key	aperotte: no maybe cuz ubnt sudo?
16:37	aperotte	mon_key: I'm not sure I understand what you mean
16:37	AWizzArd	(defn pipe [& functions] (apply comp (reverse functions)))
16:38	aperotte	duck1123: :( thanks for the help
16:38	mon_key	the class has to get written right? Does the process compiling have permissions to write to the dir on your path? Ubnt can be tricky that way... Just a thought.
16:40	aperotte	mon_key: oh ok, yeah, it should have permissions. All of the classpath folders and the clojure folder are in my home directory and shouldn't need sudo to write
16:41	AWizzArd	partner of (rem ..) is?
16:42	Chousuke	quot?
16:42	mon_key	stimpy
16:42	AWizzArd	Chousuke: thx
16:42	Chousuke	mon_key: no, stinpy.
16:42	mon_key	see...
16:45	lisppaste8	rhickey annotated #71709 with "recursive reduction with delay" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71709#1
16:48	lisppaste8	rhickey annotated #71709 with "reduction" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71709#2
16:51	rhickey	Chouser: that works, yes?
16:53	mon_key	aperotte: are you using the OpenJDK?
16:53	Chouser	ah, interesting. I was aware of delay, but it's not really in my toolbox yet.
16:55	mon_key	aperotte: reason i ask is I was having similar probs. on SUSE until switching over to Sun...
16:55	aperotte	mon_key: nope, I'm using sun's jdk
16:55	aperotte	mon_key: jdk 6 update 11
16:56	mmcgrana	namespaces can't :use each other, right?
16:57	duck1123	is there an easy way to compile every source file on my classpath, or do I have to do them one by one?
16:58	mon_key	:) Good luck with that then... have you inspected (System/getProperties) checked for trailing /'s in the classpath? Made sure your colon's are semis?
16:58	mon_key	aperotte: sorry should say colon's areN'T semis?
16:59	Chouser	rhickey: looks good to me.
16:59	aperotte	mon_key: I didn't know about (System/getProperties) let me take a look
17:00	Chouser	duck1123: if you compile x and x requires y, y will also be compiled.
17:00	mon_key	aperotte: hehehe Got that From Stu Halloway's beta .pdf - helping me alot
17:01	Chouser	aperotte: has anyone asked you to paste the whole stack trace?
17:02	aperotte	Chouser: nope, but the only thing that prints after I call compile is java.io.IOException: No such file or directory (hello.clj:1)
17:02	aperotte	mon_key: where can I get that pdf?
17:02	Chouser	aperotte: (.printStackTrace *e) and paste the results, if you don't mind.
17:03	duck1123	Chouser: Are you sure about that? I compiled a ns, and only that ns got compiled
17:03	Chouser	it certainly used to be true. let me check again.
17:03	duck1123	unless that's something's changed since I last built
17:05	aperotte	Chouser: http://paste.lisp.org/display/71712
17:05	Chouser	duck1123: it compiled a :require'd lib for me just now.
17:05	mon_key	aperotte: give the man $20 buck he deserves it: http://www.pragprog.com/titles/shcloj/programming-clojure
17:05	aperotte	mon_key: ohh, you're talking about the book. I've been meaning to get that
17:06	Chouser	duck1123: compile used to return a set of the namespaces compiled. It doesn't seem to do that now, but it still compiled my dependencies.
17:08	Chouser	aperotte: did you say you were copying some example?
17:09	aperotte	Chouser: yes the example from the new compilation webpage on the clojure site, it's the first thing under "gen-class Examples"
17:10	Chouser	that stack trace looks to me like it's finding your hello.clj, but then failing during the 'ns' call.
17:11	aperotte	the only thing I have on line 1 is (ns clojure.examples.hello (:gen-class))
17:11	Chouser	ah, createNewFile -- double check your directory names, esp. for classes
17:13	Lau_of_DK	Can somebody bring me up to speed on TCO? In saying 'jvm does not do TCO' what is the implications?
17:14	AWizzArd	Lau: recursive function calls
17:15	Chouser	If Clojure had TCO, ((fn foo [] (foo))) would be an infinite loop. Instead it overflows the heap.
17:15	duck1123	Chouser: I must have an old version. I get the set of namespaces
17:15	AWizzArd	Lau_of_DK: the problems come when several functions call each other recursively.
17:16	duck1123	mine's from 11/26
17:16	Chouser	4 versions on that date.
17:16	Lau_of_DK	Ok, thanks AWizzArd and Chouser
17:16	aperotte	Chouser: the classes directory I should be pointing to in the classpath is clojure/target/classes no?
17:17	Chouser	18 versions since that day.
17:19	Chouser	aperotte: compile-path defaults to "classes", which means ./classes/
17:20	Chouser	aperotte: so unless you've changed that value, you should make sure you have a writable subdirectory named "classes" in your current working directory when you start clojure.
17:20	RSchulz	The gist of a "tail call" is one in which none of the local state (local variables) of the function need to be used again. That means the code can just jump back to the beginning of the function and reuse the current stack frame. In a generically recursive call, a new stack frame is required.
17:20	aperotte	Chouser: ahh, ok let me try again
17:20	Chouser	also make sure you have "./classes" in your classpath.
17:20	RSchulz	Tail-call optimization means detecting (or being told) the tail-call status of a recursive invocation and skipping the new stack frame creation.
17:21	RSchulz	Java does not accommodate this (as Lisps often do), so it's up to the language and / or the programmer to bridge the gap.
17:26	mon_key	Lau xah lee (love him or leave him) has a nice discussion on TCO
17:26	mon_key
17:26	mon_key
17:26	mon_key
17:26	mon_key
17:26	mon_key
17:26	mon_key
17:26	mon_key
17:26	Chousuke	hmm
17:26	mon_key
17:26	mon_key
17:26	mon_key
17:26	mon_key	sorry about that. http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/tailrecursion.html
17:26	Chousuke	that discussion must be between zen masters.
17:28	aperotte	Chouser: woohooooo! compilation successful
17:29	aperotte	Chouser: I was confused about the location of the classes folder and its inclusion in the classpath
17:30	aperotte	Chouser, duck1123, mon_key: thank you!
17:30	RSchulz	It's always easy to rail against "jargon," but every profession has its argot and it's necessary. Otherwise, we'd communicate in some kind of low-level, perfectly unambiguous "Newspeak..."
17:31	mon_key	RSchulz: That particular `Xah' has positive ramifications for Clojure, trampolines, recur, etc.
17:32	RSchulz	OK. I'm still reading it, but I tend to be pretty skeptical of missives about language and vocabulary per se.
17:33	RSchulz	Of course, I'm refraining from commenting on the many ungrammatical uses of English in this particular individual's writings...
17:33	RSchulz	It would be very rude to even allude to them.
17:33	RSchulz	Wait...
17:37	mon_key	Rschulz: ... I just got that :)
17:42	RSchulz	So... He wants to expunge jargon. To that end he proposes replacing "tail recursion" with "linear recursion."
17:43	RSchulz	Woo-Hoo! Clarity and logic triump!
17:43	Chouser	constant-space recursion
17:43	RSchulz	(If not my spelling and / or typing.)
17:44	RSchulz	And as we progress towards a complete and unambiguous noun phrase, we see why humans need arbitrary labels for their complex thoughts.
17:45	RSchulz	It's the same deal with "patterns." The point is that they capture complex concepts with simple titles that (naturally) do not fully express those concepts. Nothing less than the full exposition of the concept could do that!
17:47	Chousuke	replacing tail recursion with another term would just create more confusion than it'd do away with :/
17:48	Chousuke	it's wrong to complain about established meanings of terms, or to say they are incorrect. If they are established meanings, they are by definition correct :P
17:48	aperotte	when using swank, if I use the keybinding C-x C-e on a call to (ns ...), the repl doesn't switch namespaces, is that the case for everyone?
17:48	mon_key	Rschulz: It is interesting to consider Xah's linguistic cultural heritage in lieu "The full exposition of the concept" - e.g. Eastern idiomatic languages
17:49	RSchulz	I can't speak to that, as someone who only speaks English. (In my defense, I did study German for three years in high school and Mandarin for two years in college.)
17:49	mon_key	aperotte: it is the case for my current setup
17:50	RSchulz	However, I'm not sure the particular language one speaks constitutes an argument or counter-argument for a particular technical argot.
17:50	aperotte	mon_key: thanks, just wanted to make sure it wasn't just me
17:50	mon_key	aperotte: I think i found a kludge this afternoon. Still working on it.
17:51	RSchulz	After all, Xah ("he?" "she?") did argue for replacing "tail recursion" with "linear recursion." This is an almost meaningless distinction, given the fact that the concept is far too complex to be captured in any two words, especially if one is fixed as "recursion."
17:52	aperotte	mon_key: great! I would offer to help, but my emacs skill level would probably make me more of a hindrance than help
17:53	mon_key	mon_key: :) it's not my kludge. I'm `borrowing' - i'll paste it over once i know.
17:54	RSchulz	Chousuke: I just noticed your last two posts. I agree fully.
17:56	mon_key	RShulz: I think he is advocating for, "optimized implementation of linear recursion" - Not advocating this position. Just thougth it had relevance to Clojure stylee.
17:58	RSchulz	mon_key: Use RS<tab>, then you don't have to type my whole name, risking misspellings...
17:58	aperotte	mon_key: I haven't tried copying his setup but bill clementson posted about his setup at http://bc.tech.coop/blog/081205.html ... I'm going to give it a try sometime. Gotta go, but thanks again for the help
17:58	RSchulz	(My dad taught me to be proud of my name...)
18:02	RSchulz	And, as if by coordinated effort, the same misspelling appears on the mailing list...
18:02	Lau_of_DK	Did you guys know, that there's actually a plugin for ERC, which automatically makes a lisp-paste if you paste to much raw code to the channel? :)
18:02	mon_key	RSchulz: Sorry :( (...my name...) He teach you about named-entity recognition? I need all the help i can get on that one :P
18:03	Chousuke	Lau_of_DK: :P
18:03	RSchulz	No. He just tought be to be proud of being a Schulz. It's just a name, but it's our name...
18:03	Chousuke	I think it's probably the most generic german name there is.
18:05	Lau_of_DK	I dont know googlegroups very well, but is it possible to add some filtering possibilities which automatically filter out spam and french ?
18:07	rottcodd	Lau_of_DK: there is lisppaste.el
18:08	RSchulz	Generic!? How dare you! ... Where I come from most of 'em are Schultz.
18:09	RSchulz	I understand it means "protector" and is also etymologically related to the first S in the infamous SS...
18:09	RSchulz	What can I do? What can I say? I'm a Schulz... In name, at least.
18:09	Lau_of_DK	hiredman: Can we modify clojurebot so that it automatically does a dictionary lookup on RSchulz's sentenses?
18:10	mon_key	dictserv.el :)
18:10	RSchulz	Gack! Try Google. You'll get tens of thousands. I'm borderline logorrheic...
18:11	Lau_of_DK	haha
18:11	Lau_of_DK	I gotta hit the sack, Have a good weekend all
18:12	RSchulz	Ciao, Lau.
18:16	duck1123	when doing gen-class, do I need to specify what exceptions my fns throw?
18:16	duck1123	and if so, how would I do that
19:19	RSchulz	OK. I'm officially no longer going to read any of Xah Lee's articles. He is clearly obsessed with words to the ultimate detriment of useful communcation. I don't believe there is enough substance, if any, in his polemics to make them worth the time it takes to read them.
19:20	AWizzArd	Xah believes like Wolfram, that Mathematica is the best programming language available.
19:21	RSchulz	! Why didn't someone tell me that before I spent any time at all reading his stuff?
19:21	AWizzArd	Damn, and he writes so much. Well, that is the tricky part.. people who haven't seen him before may be tricked into thinking at first that he is doing serious posts.
19:22	RSchulz	That can't last long. Volume / quantity does not equal quality. Most people know that.
19:24	Chousuke	I tend not to take seriously people who write a lot but don't bother to pay attention to grammar or their typing :/
19:25	AWizzArd	It depends.. if RSchulz is writing something long I would probably be interested. But Xah.. no thanks.
19:26	Chousuke	Well, RSchulz does not seem to be making crude grammar errors all the time.
19:26	RSchulz	Well, I went through this with Lau (privately). I don't tend to just write stuff. I respond, but don't just fire off my random thoughts.
19:26	RSchulz	I think the world is better that way.
19:27	AWizzArd	;-)
19:30	Chousuke	I'll agree that English isn't the easiest language to learn, but if I were to write something I simply couldn't publish rants full of typos or grammar errors. I'm too much of a perfectionist :/
19:31	RSchulz	There's an aphorism: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."
19:31	Chousuke	heh.
19:32	RSchulz	Which, of course, is somewhat at odds with "There's no such thing as a dumb question."
19:32	RSchulz	We just like to keep our options for judging people open.
19:34	Chousuke	A question is never dumb if it stems from genuine desire to learn I suppose.
19:34	RSchulz	Yes. That's the point.
19:35	RSchulz	But one does expose oneself to ridicule if the question is posed in a setting where it discloses fundamental ignorance.
19:35	RSchulz	You've just got to be able not to care if anyone knows you're a rank newbie.
19:35	RSchulz	I know I don't. Not usually...
19:40	Chousuke	Occasionally I've helped people trying to learn to program. Many are capable of understanding, but there have been some who even after careful explaining are unable to understand how a simple loop works.
19:41	RSchulz	I've occasionally thought about how I'd try to teach programming. I took to it so effortlessly that it's hard to imagine someone not immediately grasping the basics.
19:42	AWizzArd	Can one have only one of #{:when :while} for each binding form inside a (for ...)?
19:43	AWizzArd	(for [x (range 20) :when (> x 8) :while (zero? (rem x 2))] x) doesn't work. When I remove the :when or the :while block it works.
19:44	duck1123	It's odd, but I am able to decompile many different class files, but not the ones generated by clojure
19:44	RSchulz	I'm not sure. They seem compatible. One determines the termination while the other determines when the body expr is evaluated. But the wording of the doc suggests one or the other.
19:44	RSchulz	Have you tried using both?
19:45	RSchulz	duck1123: What are you using to decompile?
19:45	RSchulz	It may make assumptions about the source of the bytecodes that don't apply to Clojure.
19:45	RSchulz	Clearly, Clojure's bytecodes are acceptable to the JVM, or we'd get some low-leve exception from the bytecode verifier.
19:46	duck1123	I've tried jad and netbeans
19:46	AWizzArd	I tried using both, just copy my (for [x (range 20) :when (> x 8) :while (zero? (rem x 2))] x) example into a repl. But (for [x (range 20) :when (> x 8)] x) works, as well as (for [x (range 20) :while (zero? (rem x 2))] x)
19:46	duck1123	Tomcat seems to be rejecting my class file, that's the only reason I'm bothering to look into this
19:47	RSchulz	duck1123: What exception / error are you getting from Tomcat?
19:48	AWizzArd	duck1123: I have a similar problem, with Jetty+Rife.
19:48	RSchulz	AWizzArd: "unsupproted binding expression."
19:48	AWizzArd	RSchulz: yes.
19:48	AWizzArd	But both work when they are alone.
19:48	RSchulz	It could be a bug / oversight or it could be intentional. I'd send a message to the list asking what the deal is.
19:48	AWizzArd	Yes oki, I will ask the list.
19:49	duck1123	RSchulz: I'm not getting any exceptions or errors. When I enable the lines in my web.xml, it removes my servlet
19:49	RSchulz	duck1123: Is it possible that the class in question does not implement the proper interface and / or extend the proper base class?
19:49	duck1123	I just updated my clojure, let's see if that helps
19:49	sean_____	Hello all. Has anyone tried to edit the wiki page lately?
19:50	RSchulz	Which of Tomcat's log files did you check? it makes two or three, and I've never quite figured out what goes into each of them.
19:50	RSchulz	sean_____: Do you mean the WikiBooks page(s)?
19:51	sean_____	RSchulz: Yep. I'm trying to make some edits because it's pretty out of date, but when I click the section edit link, it seems to think I want to delete most of the content
19:52	duck1123	RSchulz: apparently the wrong one. I'm seeing an error I need to investigate
19:52	RSchulz	The only thing I know is that according to Meikel B., they've instituted a policy that restricts update / requires review.
19:53	sean_____	Whatever they've done seems to make it impossible to make minor edits (i.e. anything less than a rewrite)
19:53	sean_____	which makes a wiki useless :P
19:54	RSchulz	Yeah, it's perverse. I don't know anything about it, but you can check out the thread on the mailing list / Google Group Subject: "Bureaucracy has reached Wikibooks"
19:54	Chousuke	sean_____: I split up the wikibook
19:54	Chousuke	sean_____: make sure to edit the appropriate pages, and make sure you edit the draft version
19:55	Chousuke	I can't "approve" the split version so it's not shown by default
19:55	sean_____	Chousuke: How do I do that? When I click "edit" next to the relevant section, it gives me a "Draft" with all the content deleted.
19:56	Chousuke	sean_____: view the draft version and find the subpage you want to edit, and edit the section there.
19:57	Chousuke	http://en.wikibooks.org/w/index.php?title=Clojure_Programming&oldid=1343699 this is the split up book with links to the subpages.
19:58	Chousuke	or actually, this link http://en.wikibooks.org/w/index.php?title=Clojure_Programming&stable=0 ... should result in the same page though :P
19:58	Chousuke	someone needs to approve the change ;(
19:58	sean_____	Chousuke: That is what I needed. Thank you!
19:58	Chousuke	I hate the new "stable version" stuff too
19:59	Chousuke	apparently the draft version is shown by default if you're logged in though.
20:00	sean_____	I didn't want to bother logging in. I'm accustomed to making minor edits without that (admittedly small) hassle. I'm just correcting all the little mistakes I find while setting up clojure :).
20:00	RSchulz	Who acts as editor for these revisions? Is it even someone affiliated with Clojure??
20:00	Chousuke	I don't know.
20:00	Chousuke	probably not.
20:00	RSchulz	It sounds a bit crazy...
20:01	RSchulz	Ha! Now I know AWizzArd's real name!
20:01	RSchulz	...Presumably...
20:07	Chousuke	you /whois'd him? :/
20:07	RSchulz	Ah. Actually, it's been there in the WHOIS output all along.
20:07	RSchulz	No. I correlated his question here with a posting on the list.
20:07	RSchulz	That just seems so much more clever...
20:08	Chousuke	Yes. Why do things the easy way...
20:08	RSchulz	Exactly!
20:08	Chousuke	but: oh crap
20:08	Chousuke	it's already 3 AM here ;(
20:08	RSchulz	"Oh, laddy! You've got a lot to learn if you want people to think of you as a miracle worker!" --Scotty to Geordi
20:08	Chousuke	I should've been sleeping hours ago.
20:09	RSchulz	Definitely. I'm an early riser. I'm up at 5:30 AM.
20:13	Chouser	AWizzArd: you can have :when and :while in the same 'for' as long as they're on different expressions
20:13	AWizzArd	yes
20:13	AWizzArd	But I mean for the same binding
20:14	Chouser	that's not currently support
20:14	Chouser	works for doseq, though.
20:15	AWizzArd	Can you show how to do it for (for [x (range 1 20) :when (> x 8) :while (< 0 (rem x 13))] x) ?
20:16	AWizzArd	Where does one place the :when and :while inside doseq?
20:17	RSchulz	Isn't (doseq ...) syntactically the same as (for ...)?
20:18	AWizzArd	indeed
20:18	AWizzArd	(doseq [x (range 1 20) :when (> x 8) :while (< 0 (rem x 13))] (prn x))
20:22	Chouser	you can cheat even with 'for'
20:22	Chouser	(for [i (range 9) :when (odd? i) x [i] :while (< i 5)] i)
20:28	RSchulz	Isn't '(1 3) simpler?
20:39	AWizzArd	btw, isn't there this type unsigned long in java?
20:40	AWizzArd	(class 4000000000) ==> BigInteger
20:42	RSchulz	Java has no unsigned types, other than byte (implicitly unsigned).
20:44	AWizzArd	okay anyway, then it should be long at least, no?
20:44	RSchulz	"It?"
20:47	RSchulz	you mean 4,000,000,000? By asking for a class, you force Clojure to produce an reference type, and it doesn't bother with java.lang.Long.
20:48	AWizzArd	although for 2 billion it returns an Int
20:51	RSchulz	Apparently it just converts longs and Longs to BigInteger.
20:51	RSchulz	There may be a reason for it, but I don't know what that might be.
21:06	Chouser	RSchulz: oh, good point! next time I'll write '(1 3)
21:28	lsmith	Does the :gen-class option in (ns actually work for anyone?
21:28	Chouser	yes
21:29	lsmith	svn? or the archive on sourceforge?
21:29	Chouser	svn
21:29	lsmith	alright.
21:29	Chouser	the latest "release" doesn't have :gen-class for the ns macro
21:30	lsmith	It does, but it doesn't behave
21:31	Chouser	ah, yes. you might actually be able to just about any function name in 'ns' but most won't behave
21:31	Chouser	I'd recommend checking (doc ns) before trying to use any particular option.
22:12	spaceman_stu	hey guys. newbie emacs question: what's the best way to kill my slime process if I start an infinite loop?
22:33	rottcodd	spaceman_stu: does slime-interrupt work?
22:34	spaceman_stu	I haven't tried taht. Sounds like it's what I'm looking for though. Thanks
22:42	rottcodd	slime-interrupt doesn't seem to work for clojure, slime-restart-inferior-lisp is another way to go
22:53	holmak	yah
22:54	holmak	Disregard that, had focus in the wrong window. Sorry.
23:56	arohner	does anyone remember the name of the paper that rhickey likes to link, "out of the turing tar pit" or something like that?
23:56	arohner	I finally have time to read it, and I can't remember the name well enough to google for it
23:56	gnuvince_	I think I have it...
23:58	gnuvince_	arohner: sorry, I must have deleted it
23:59	arohner	I think I found it, but the link appears broken
23:59	arohner	"out of the tar pit"