#clojure – 2008-11-21

2008-11-21

01:58	Pupeno	Good morning.
02:00	Pupeno	Is there any docs on writing macros? I would have expected the macros section in the reference was about it.
02:07	H4ns	Pupeno: pcl has a section on macros, and on lisp covers them in depth.
02:07	H4ns	Pupeno: a reference is not meant to be used to learn
02:07	H4ns	Pupeno: (in the sense that a tutorial or user manual is)
02:18	H4ns	dang!
02:18	H4ns	Pupeno: apologies, i was in the wrong channel context :)
02:19	H4ns	Pupeno: i'd still say that my recommendations are kind of helpful, but certainly to a lesser extent
02:24	Pupeno	H4ns: ok, thanks.
04:05	leafw	away txu txu
05:58	Pupeno-G	Hello.
05:59	Pupeno-G	I have a Java method with the signature: blah(String�a, String�e, long�i, boolean�o); am I calling it wrong by calling it like (.blah ClassName "a" "e" (* 1000 (.currentTimeMillis System)) false)?
06:01	tWip	you left out part of the signature
06:01	tWip	is it public and static or something else?
06:02	Pupeno-G	tWip: public, non-static.
06:03	tWip	then you can't call it on the class
06:03	Pupeno-G	void.
06:03	tWip	you need an instance
06:03	Pupeno-G	Sorry, just wrote it wrong here, I am using an instance.
06:03	tWip	then I believe that should be correct usage
06:03	hiredman	hmm
06:03	hiredman	maybe wrap the time in (long ...)
06:04	tWip	and static calls I'd prefer (System/currentTimeMillis)
06:04	Pupeno-G	hiredman: that was it, thanks!
06:04	Pupeno-G	tWip: thanks.
06:04	hiredman	working code first, pretty code after
06:43	Pupeno-G	How do I use generics from Clojure, in the sense of how do I do this: new HashSet<String>(), from Clojure? (new HashSet ???)?
06:44	Chousuke	I'm not aware of any way to do that.
06:45	Chousuke	just use a non-specialised HashSet?
06:45	Chousuke	it's just a compile-time thing anyway
06:45	Pupeno-G	Chousuke: I'm not really working with HashSet, that was just an example. Anyway, thanks.
07:21	askentask	how about lisp and static typing? how hard is it to implement static typing on a lisp? and i mean haskell-like static typing, not java-esque
07:25	philscotted	Pupeno-G: Dynamically typed languages have no real need for generics (parametric polymorphism).
07:26	philscotted	askentask: I suspect some would say that if you have static typing, you no longer have a lisp.
07:47	askentask	hehe, but i dont build it into the language, i just have a clojure-rpogram that typechecks. and anyway there optional static typing for common lisp.
07:47	askentask	also i dont really get the advantage of dynamic typing except for less typing. what are the non-superficial advantages of dynamic typing?
07:48	tWip	Many lisp compilers do type analysis for efficiency
07:55	philscotted	askentask: There are some things you just can't do without dynamic typing. A human being can make type-correctness guarantees that a static type checker cannot.
07:55	askentask	but i want to do it for saftey
07:56	philscotted	tWip: Yes, but I wouldn't call that static typing.
07:59	philscotted	askentask: Also, you can have statically typed languages where you don't have to write all your types out by hand, so dynamic typing is not about less (keyboard) typing in that sense.
07:59	askentask	phil: yes in haskell but in other langs, java c++ its a lot about it
08:00	askentask	but ok i sees the point about humans being able to typecheck where a static typechecker cannot
08:01	philscotted	askentask: Right, but I consider those to be pretty impoverished languages, and not really worth comparing to.
08:01	tWip	static typing requires the whole program to some extent
08:01	tWip	and is not compatible with the lispy repl coding approach
08:01	askentask	but as programsize grows id like help on that verification by a program. mostly it is the simple stuff i need to get fixed. like if forget to change something somewher eand it says "1" + 4, those are the things a static system would fo better than me
08:02	askentask	tWip: i find the ghci haskell repl to be quite good(ebven if it doesnt allow the whole ghc)
08:02	tWip	never really developed anything in ghci repl
08:02	tWip	but I develop in a lisp repl all the time
08:03	philscotted	tWip: Right. Redefining functions on the fly, for instance. You can't do that with ghci.
08:05	tWip	especially good with server software that has a long startup
08:15	philscotted	askentask: In practice, I haven't found those sort of type errors to dominate, and I certainly haven't found them to be a big deal. Besides, with a decent Lisp allow interactive testing and allow you to rebind functions at the toplevel and have the effects propagate properly (unlike Python, say),
08:15	philscotted	Whoops, pressed return too soon.
08:16	philscotted	In practice, I haven't found those sort of type errors to dominate, and I certainly haven't found them to be a big deal. Besides, with a decent lisp you can interactively test your functions to iron out those sorts of errors, and when you can rebind functions at the toplevel and have the effects propagate properly (unlike Python, say) you can get rid of those errors pretty quickly.
08:17	philscotted	In the end, I find the advantages of a dynamic language to be far greater. And in something like Common Lisp, the combination of a debugger and condition system may allow you to correct any missed errors on the fly and continue running the program as if nothing had ever happened.
08:18	Pupeno-G	It seems I can import a.b.C.D in Clojure where C is a class and D is a subclass (public static), while in Java I can; can anybody confirm?
08:18	rhickey	the name of that nested class is a.b.C$D
08:19	rhickey	you can (import '(a.b C$D))
08:22	Pupeno-G	I meant "can't", but I think my question was clear anyway.
08:22	Pupeno-G	rhickey: I see, but then everytime I mention the class I have to do C$D; would it be possible to mimic Java's behavior here?
08:23	rhickey	Pupeno-G: No, dots have too many meanings already
08:23	askentask	philscotted: how do you mean propagate properly? or i know what you mean by that but when doesnt it in python?
08:23	Pupeno-G	rhickey: ok then.
08:24	philscotted	In Python, when I redefine a class at the toplevel, existing instances of that class are unaffected. This is really annoying for interactive testing and debugging.
08:25	askentask	i like also like in haskell i can do: :type f and it tells me specifially what it does rather than jus the variable name. if i do in clojure: (defn update [coll index newlist]...) i want to do :type update and get: [[a]] -> Int -> [a] -> [[a]]
08:26	askentask	i see about servers yes, so instead of restarting the program you can change things at runtime, that wouldbe a great advantage yes
08:26	philscotted	askentask: Not sure how Clojure behaves on this one. But CLOS will call change-class on all instances when you redefine classes.
08:26	rhickey	askentask: except collections can be heterogeneous
08:26	askentask	phil: ah ok
08:26	duck1123	is it possible to alias a nested class?
08:26	philscotted	askentask: Yes, static typing can be really nice for automatic documentation.
08:27	rhickey	philscotted: it comes at a cost in expressivity
08:27	Pupeno-G	I have just realized I hate Haskell.
08:28	philscotted	rhickey: Yes, of course. But I've already mentioned some of the disadvantages of static typing.
08:28	blackdog	not to mention the code explosion, I just find it easier to deal with less code
08:29	rhickey	duck1123: there's no class aliases at this time
08:29	Pupeno-G	Now I am always afraid a collection will come with one item of an unexpected type and I can't do anything about it. I didn't use to be afraid. I'll take it to my psychoanalyst.
08:31	duck1123	I used to argue for static typing all the time. Now I feel the opposite.
08:32	askentask	lol
08:32	askentask	what have i done?
08:32	askentask	bringing this up
08:32	askentask	when i write in static langs i msiss dynamic typing, when i write in dynamic langs i misss static typing
08:32	Pupeno-G	duck1123: I change polarization about 6 or 7 times a year :S
08:35	gnuvince	askentask: welcome to the club
08:36	duck1123	PHP4 soured me on dynamic typing for quite a while, Ruby brought me back
08:36	Pupeno-G	I'd like clojure-mode to change between different possible tab levels when tab is pressed again, like the python mode (for semantic purposes) or that cool javascript mode (for extra coolness and because Javascript is a mess).
08:37	duck1123	I hate that about js2-mode
08:38	duck1123	it would be okay if I had to modify the tab to change it, but I tend to hit tab randomly on lines to make sure they're indented properly
08:38	gnuvince	You just need to remember not to try and code like you have a dynamically typed language when you're using a statically typed language and vice-versa
08:39	philscotted	Ocaml's static duck typing is another matter though. Here, an object is automatically typed by an implicit interface which includes precisely those functions which are actually required. It allows for a lot more flexibility, heterogenous collections (without the headache of defining variant types). However, it's part of the OO extensions (which I tend to avoid anyway), is restricted to single-dispatch. Oh, and it's Ocaml.
08:39	H4ns	Pupeno-G: with lisp, there usually is one (1) correct indentation for every line.
08:39	Pupeno-G	duck1123: the first tab should leave it where it is if it's a valid tab.
08:39	Pupeno-G	H4ns: maybe I have weird indenting habits.
08:39	Pupeno-G	lisppaste8: url
08:39	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
08:39	H4ns	Pupeno-G: yes. change them.
08:40	duck1123	you guys should see the formatting of some of my old XQuery
08:42	lisppaste8	Pupeno pasted "Which indentation do you prefer, the first or the second?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70818
08:42	Pupeno-G	H4ns: can you answer that paste?
08:43	H4ns	Pupeno-G: certainly - i would prefer the first, but i always stick to what the editor does for me. that is the only way to get consistent indentation. reasonable editors provide you with hooks to control your indentation.
08:43	Pupeno-G	H4ns: but clojure-mode gives you the second, and it doesn't have any way to know you want the first.
08:43	duck1123	I tend to fiddle with my code to get it to look the way I want
08:44	Pupeno-G	duck1123: but then your random tabs break it, where tab-switches-indentation-unless-it-is-in-a-correct-spot doesn't do it.
08:44	H4ns	Pupeno-G: you can certainly customize clojure-mode so that it indents correctly.
08:45	Pupeno-G	H4ns: if you mean modifing it for each library out there, then, no thanks.
08:45	lisppaste8	duck1123 annotated #70818 with "another way to indent" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70818#1
08:46	Pupeno-G	duck1123: I sometimes do that, but I end wasting too much vertical screen.
08:46	Pupeno-G	duck1123: while not adding clarity.
08:46	H4ns	Pupeno-G: usually, you can customize lisp mode with a simple regular expression - for example, one that makes a 2 space indent for forms containing with- or without-
08:46	H4ns	Pupeno-G: it could even be in place, but be defeated by your namespace prefix.
08:47	Pupeno-G	H4ns: true, but that's going to fail sometime, while the tab-cycling doesn't.
08:47	duck1123	I do whatever it takes to make it look as close to what I want to see as possible without changing the default
08:47	H4ns	shrug
08:54	askentask	can parameters be caleld anyhting without clashing with builtin names?
08:56	tWip	(defn foo [defn] (+ defn 1))
08:56	tWip	seems to work
08:56	rhickey	askentask: other than for special ops
08:57	philscotted	See http://clojure.org/evaluation
08:57	Pupeno-G	It would be nice if the "No matching method found"-error would list the argument types used in the call, not only the name of the method.
08:57	philscotted	rhickey: And if the symbol is bound to a class, according to your docs.
08:57	rhickey	philscotted: right
08:58	askentask	hmmim rewriting my clojure-oo-system. used refs from the start but yesterday someone said just pass along the updates without refs might be better. I want it o to fit in with clojure-style programming. and i want something a bit more elaborate than defstruct.
09:04	askentask	hmm im wondering should i have refs in the class or refs or soemthinc classes get assigned to later. i must separate the definition of a class from the creation.
09:05	rhickey	askentask: If you really want to do an object system for Clojure, you need to totally understand this: http://clojure.org/state
09:10	philscotted	rhickey: Actually, just testing out that evaluation order stuff. If I do (import '(java.io PrintStream)) and then "(defn foo [PrintStream] PrintStream)" shouldn't foo return the java class rather than its argument?
09:12	rhickey	philscotted: no, argument will hide it when used as a value like that
09:13	rhickey	but (new PrintStream ...) would still work
09:16	Chousuke	askentask: if you find yourself using a lot of refs in your object system, you're probably doing it wrong.
09:18	lisppaste8	cemerick pasted "rhickey: no tagging on auto" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70821
09:18	cemerick	hrm, that title didn't come out right...
09:20	Chouser	cemerick: you could re-def vector-color to something of a different type.
09:20	cemerick	Chouser: ...at which point the :tag could be updated, no?
09:20	Chouser	later, I mean, and cause an auto-hinted vector-stroke-color to do something other than what you meant.
09:21	cemerick	I guess that makes binding more complicated.
09:22	Chouser	the :tag would be used when compiling vector-stroke-color -- I'm not sure you'd want a change to :tag later to go through and recompile all code that referd to that var.
09:23	Lau_of_DK	Afternoon gents
09:23	rhickey	cemerick: you can hint vector-color itself
09:23	cemerick	Chouser: ah, right
09:24	cemerick	rhickey: yeah, I know. I just hadn't yet thought through the ramifications of auto-tagging vars
09:24	rhickey	auto-tagging is the enemy of heterogeneity
09:25	rhickey	now, if I add defconstant...
09:27	cemerick	...and all the shades in between. I often know that some var will always be bound to an object of a particular type, but I do need to rebind it as necessary. defconstanttype :-P
09:27	rhickey	cemerick: just tag it then, there are all kinds of issues about what type to assign - most-derived, least-derived, which of n interfaces etc
09:28	cemerick	Yeah, I wasn't actually suggesting a new def-form.
09:30	rhickey	cemerick: have you tried AOT gen-class yet?
09:31	cemerick	rhickey: No, not yet. I'm buried from a number of directions. I think wwmorgan may have, but I'm not sure.
09:31	cemerick	I may get to take a look at it over the holiday. I've been watching the developments, though, everything looks to be falling into place.
09:40	Pupeno-G	do you same examples or samples when refering to programs provided as examples?
09:40	Pupeno-G	or samples.
09:44	Chouser	Pupeno-G: that's a question about English? "examples" usually.
09:44	Pupeno-G	Chouser: yes, english; I never cease to be puzzled by that language.
09:45	Pupeno-G	sorry for the off-topic, but we were quiet anyway.
09:45	Chouser	np
09:46	askentask	i have this confusion. so i need to define general methods for a class that can then be called by each instance. so i need some from of "self". so should each instance carry a dict with {:my-personall-attributes some-values :general-class-spec spec} where personal-attributes correspond to something n general-class-epc
09:48	askentask	meh i need some better teaches, did high school suck for you guys too? we do so much pointless stuff but i have noone to discuss or go to for programming. seriously i have to memorize 80 different fookin birds for a biology class but when i want to learn programming i cant get any help
09:51	Pupeno-G	askentask: if you want to really learn programming, go through SICP, at least, the lectures.
09:51	Chouser	askentask: I sympathize. But at least in my experience, one is generally encouraged if not forced to specialize as you get older. It may be hard to think of it this way, but right now you have an opportunity to learn about birds, history, etc. that may be hard to come by later.
09:53	Chouser	We had no programming courses at my high-school, or anyone around that could help in that area. Books were it. (No internet then either, at least for me.)
09:53	duck1123	can the path to slurp be relative to the classpath, or must it be absolute?
09:53	Chouser	duck1123: slurp doesn't honor classpath
09:54	askentask	poor you, wikipedia is at least a great help on grasping basic concepts
09:54	Pupeno-G	I had C, Basic and Assembler in high school, but by the time I've got there, I got mostly recruited as teacher helper; so they didn't help me much, but I've got a chance to help others.
09:55	rzezeski	+1 on SICP, still going thru them, very informative. I already have a CS degree and it is teaching me a lot
09:55	Pupeno-G	rzezeski: indeed! if it wasn't for SICP, I wouldn't have my current job.
09:56	duck1123	so, what would be the best way to find a file in my project if I don't know where the code will be sitting?
09:57	rzezeski	I taught myself VB in high school, then I learned C++ senior year of HS and throughout College, then started using Java late College and now in my career.
09:57	duck1123	I started with Atari Basic in 3rd grade
09:57	rzezeski	We studied FP briefly in our AI and Programming Languages class, but about a year ago I finally came back to it by checking out Haskell again
09:58	Chouser	duck1123: I've used: (.getResourceAsStream (clojure.lang.RT/baseLoader) file)
09:58	Chousuke	askentask: your instances could contain a reference to the class object, a map of attributes, and maybe some metadata. the class object then could contain a map of functions defined for that class.
09:58	rzezeski	SICP is teaching me loads though, awesome that you can get such a great resource for free!
09:59	Chousuke	However, I don't see a reason to make anything that complicated. Though it might be good practice if you want to try and understand the concepts.
10:00	askentask	which is?
10:01	Chousuke	If I needed something OO with clojure I'd probably just use maps of attributes and values and call them objects :P
10:02	Chousuke	or I could use java I guess :/
10:03	philscotted	rzezeski: SICP really makes me embarrassed about the quality of teaching at my university. Not sure if that is just a rare jewel of MIT, or whether they have consistently good teaching material.
10:04	rzezeski	I think it's MIT
10:04	Pupeno-G	philscotted: do you know that they ditched Scheme for Python to teach that class? I think it might have been a rare jewel (possible much more rare outside MIT).
10:04	rzezeski	personally though, if I had the choice (and the grades) I'd prefer CMU
10:05	philscotted	Pupeno-G: Ugh. At least they didn't ditch Scheme for Java. The uni where I did my undergrad had an amazing course on OO, taught using Smalltalk. They've now ditched it for Java.
10:14	philscotted	Speaking of Scheme and Java, does anyone know what Guy Steele was talking about when he suggested Java brings C++ programmers half-way to Lisp?
10:15	Chouser	philscotted: I know very little, but a couple things come to mind: reflection, heterogeneous collections, garbage collection
10:17	philscotted	Chouser: Right. I suspect, then, I would very much disagree with his metric. I'm not even sure Java is halfway to Smalltalk.
10:20	askentask	hmm i cant by the problem that i have a hard time doing this without defs. i could if letting the class-specification being a ref that all instances refer to. instance being a map to :spec and :instance-attributes
10:24	philscotted	If we get indexed HTML documentation for Clojure functions, it might be cool to have a :see-also tag on function and macro symbols, pointing to the web page (or general URI resource).
10:25	philscotted	Users could then add their own see-also tags which can be used by developer tools.
10:25	philscotted	rhickey: By the way, I really like the documentation strings and metadata system.
10:31	duck1123	I would like to see people using markdown or something similar in documentation strings
10:31	cemerick	oh noes, not markdown! :-P
10:34	duck1123	I'm curious, why not? I don't really have strong feelings for it, but I know some other languages use it or similar in their documentation.
10:37	philscotted	Only just looked at it, but my first worry would be that the syntax for emphasis in markdown conflicts with the Lisp convention of surrounding special variables with *.
10:38	philscotted	I think if we want structured, semantic-rich documentation, we should use an s-expression format.
10:38	askentask	if you need a graph datastructure, how would you create one? here is where Clojure clashes with my brain. in Python I could make a class for Node, Edge etc and specify their behaviour. but what would you use n Clojure?
10:39	cemerick	duck1123: the syntax requires rote memorization. For the small amount of formatting that docs generally require, it's a whole lot easier to just use html
10:40	cemerick	philscotted: Given that clojure is jvm-centric, I think conforming to the javadoc conventions and then somehow injecting docstrings into the javadoc tool would be ideal, especially given AOT compilation being a good vehicle to provide public APIs.
10:40	Chouser	askentask: you need a graph not just a tree?
10:41	philscotted	askentask: A pure functional way to do a graph would be to have a set of vertices and a map from this set to the set of edges.
10:42	Chouser	{:a #{:b :c} :b #{c} :c #{}}
10:43	duck1123	cemerick: I would love to see clojure code produce actual javadoc documentation.
10:43	duck1123	I hate the format of javadocs, but there are plenty of tools to make it better
10:43	cemerick	duck1123: I think it'll happen, but we'll probably have to generate java source containing the docstrings in order to run javadoc over them.
10:43	philscotted	cemerick: But it would be good to use sexpr to represent the javadoc documentation, and then have clojure manipulate it for consumption by the javadoc tools.
10:44	cemerick	philscotted: how would you represent javadoc docs using sexprs? It's fundamentally HTML, with type/method/field references here and there.
10:46	Chouser	clojure docs are already represented in clojure data structures (namespaces of vars with map metadata), so consuming that and spewing whatever javadoc needs seems like it should be straightforward.
10:46	philscotted	cemerick: There are loads of ways you could do it. Are there not standard tools to convert javadoc comments to XML? There are standard tools to convert from and between XML and sexpr. So we probably wouldn't need to do anything.
10:46	cemerick	Yeah, it's just a matter of wiring things up. Generating source code kinda sucks, though. :-/
10:47	philscotted	Chouser: At the moment though, the docs are just strings. There is no explicit documentation for individual function arguments, for instance.
10:47	cemerick	philscotted: javadoc comments are strings that are interpreted by the javadoc tool to produce HTML. I'm sure there's tools out there to emit XML instead (and pdf's, etc), but they all work with Java source files.
10:48	cemerick	philscotted: That's what the standard javadoc annotations are for (@param, etc)
10:48	Chouser	but we don't want @param in .clj files though
10:49	cemerick	Chouser: something like them needs to go somewhere.
10:49	cemerick	especially if we want actual javadoc output
10:50	philscotted	Chouser: No, but the metadata could contain :arg-doc which maps to another map between the argument symbols and documentation for each one.
10:50	duck1123	on the subject of javadoc, is the javadoc for clojure posted anywhere?
10:51	philscotted	Chouser: Not that any of this is particularly important. But if semantically rich documentation gets added to Clojure, I hope it is in the form of Clojure data structures.
10:51	cemerick	I don't think we'd want to start scattering documentation fragments in multiple places.
10:52	cemerick	philscotted: I'm still wondering what that "richness" gets you
10:52	philscotted	cemerick: Ah right. javadoc won't consume anything other than java source?
10:52	cemerick	philscotted: exactly
10:52	cemerick	it's hardwired into the compiler
10:52	gnuvince	Is "taxonomy" a synonym of "hierarchy"?
10:52	cemerick	I looked into it in some detail about a year ago to see if I could generate unified javadoc from java and scala sources.
10:53	duck1123	gnuvince: more a taxonomy is a hierarchy i think
10:53	philscotted	cemerick: For instance, when writing a form, Slime could spit out the documentation for each function argument as I type it, by inspecting the metadata.
10:55	philscotted	cemerick: Generally, I want the possibility of doing such things.
10:55	cemerick	philscotted: Yes, that might be cool, but getting there with sexprs makes all of the common use-cases more complicated. To start, every fn would need two forms of docs -- a docstring, as well as a metadata map with an :arg-doc entry
10:56	cemerick	Just grepping the docstring for pairs of @param annotations seems a lot better on all fronts.
10:56	Chouser	I'm with philscotted on this one
10:57	philscotted	cemerick: Docstrings are already optional. I think using plain text and preprocessors which have to do the parsing is failing to take advantage of lisp.
10:57	Chouser	imagine (defn foo "does foo things to a and b" :a "tastes like apple" :b "looks like a bee" [a b] (+ a b))
10:57	Chouser	hm, messed that up, didn't I
10:57	Chouser	oh, no, that's right.
10:58	cemerick	Chouser: and :a and :b get slotted into foo's metadata's :arg-doc map?
10:58	Chouser	or maybe 'a or just a instead of :a
10:58	Chouser	cemerick: right
10:58	Chouser	just like a plain string gets put in :doc
10:59	Chouser	defn's looking for a vector or a list that begins with a vector for the function args and body. So anything else can have new meaning -- plain string is :doc, plain symbol followed by string could be an :arg-doc
11:00	Chouser	I think I like the plain symbols, because then keywords could be used for other things. perhaps :returns "the result of doing foo things"
11:00	cemerick	well, it's syntactically it looks fine. Certainly makes the java source generation for javadoc more complicated, but that's a one-time job I suppose.
11:02	duck1123	you would also be able to read them with meta, and perhaps eventually doc
11:02	Chouser	but if we wanted to generate anything other than javadoc, not having to parse out the @params would make the job much easier.
11:03	askentask	My neighbours daughters friend is getting married to a friend of Bill Gates, she is 28, he is 63.
11:03	cemerick	there is only one doc format, and its name is javadoc ;-)
11:03	askentask	My neighbours daughters friend is getting married to a friend of Bill Gates, she is 28, he is 63. in gothenburg, sweden
11:03	askentask	haha
11:03	askentask	lol in it for the money?
11:03	Chouser	it's interesting that for pure functions the main doc string might go away. once you've described the arguments and the :return value, what else is there?
11:03	Chousuke	doc could be made a bit more general I think. currently it seems to assume the things documented are functions or macros :/
11:04	duck1123	:side-effects true
11:05	askentask	(defn def-method [for-class f]
11:05	askentask	(let [spec (get for-class :spec)]
11:05	askentask	(dosync (alter spec assoc :methods f)))
11:05	Chouser	duck1123: does 'do' have side-effects?
11:05	askentask	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: for-class in this context
11:05	askentask	clojure
11:06	askentask	how?
11:06	Chousuke	askentask: you can only have one method per class?
11:06	duck1123	:side-effects 'arguments ?
11:06	Chouser	duck1123: :-)
11:06	Chouser	askentask: works for me
11:07	philscotted	Would a :side-effects tag be useful for sanity checking transactional code at compile time?
11:07	Chouser	how would you mark java methods?
11:08	Chousuke	maybe a :pure-function tag instead
11:08	Chousuke	to tag functions that have no side-effects. Might help the compiler too :)
11:09	philscotted	Chousuke: Maybe. It's worth remembering though that anything which consumes a function cannot guarantee absence of side-effects.
11:09	Chousuke	hmm, true.
11:10	Chousuke	tribool logic: yes, no, and maybe :P
11:15	albino	why can't the function passed be marked for side-effect freeness too?
11:15	albino	D does this with their pure keyword
11:16	Chouser	again: what about java methods?
11:16	Chouser	would you assume they're all impure except for those listed in some sort of global pureness set?
11:18	philscotted	Chouser: Everything could be assumed impure unless stated otherwise, I guess. I'm not sure this system could ever be used for static guarantees in things like transactional code, but it could be used to emit warnings.
11:20	philscotted	albino: What would that allow us?
11:20	duck1123	what about :lazy false
11:21	philscotted	albino: D is statically typed, remember.
11:21	Chouser	duck1123: that's interesting. In a lot of cases boolean is probably sufficient.
11:22	wabash	Quick question: does Clojure have unicode strings baked in?
11:22	Chouser	wabash: yes
11:23	Chouser	wabash: Clojure strings are Java Strings
11:23	wabash	Oh, yeah. I should have realized that. D'oh!
11:23	gnuvince	Wow, there are songs about Rich on reddit
11:23	wabash	I will write a song about Rich someday, too.
11:24	wabash	gnuvince Where did you see them? On the programming subreddit?
11:24	gnuvince	http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7epv2/rich_hickeys_clojure_talk_at_the_jvm_language/
11:24	wabash	Oh, they are not original songs, only remakes with new lyrics...
11:25	albino	philscotted: I figured the same concept would apply. Marking a function side-effect free means it could be passed to any other function which was also marked side-effect free
11:25	wabash	Once I have a strong enough mastery of clojure to appreciate it, I'll write an original song about clojure or something.
11:29	philscotted	albino: Yeah, but suppose you want to pass a side-effecting function to list. List is side-effect free, and has no intention of invoking its arguments, so we would still want this to work.
11:32	duck1123	philscotted: are you saying evaluate the function and pass it to list, or pass the functions symbol to list
11:33	duck1123	if it's the first, then list is no longer side-effect free because the false bubbles up
11:33	philscotted	duck: I'm saying to pass the function to list. Suppose the function is foo and it is side-effecting. (list foo) has no side-effects.
11:33	duck1123	if it's the latter, then it's not really a function, it's data
11:36	philscotted	duck1123: More concretely: (defn foo [bar] (bar)) defines a function which takes a function and will have side effects iff bar has side effects. But (defn foo [bar] (list bar)) is pure whatever.
11:36	askentask	can i let inside a reduce?
11:36	Chouser	askentask: you can 'let' anywhere that expects an expression.
11:36	askentask	ah yes
11:37	duck1123	you need 3 states
11:37	duck1123	foo1 is maybe, foo2 is false
11:40	danlarkin	haha this thread is a goof, http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7epv2/rich_hickeys_clojure_talk_at_the_jvm_language/c06gob8
11:40	duck1123	(defn foo1 :side-effects (some (map #(:side-effects (meta %)) '(bar))) [bar] (bar))
11:41	duck1123	I'm sure I screwed that up, but you get the idea
11:42	philscotted	duck1123: Right. So rather than having a simple boolean, we could capture the conditional in some actual code. I'm not sure how much benefit any of this will actually give. It might just end up being overhead.
11:44	hiredman	ugh
11:45	duck1123	presumably, it would be much easier to identify the arguments that can change the side-effect status :side-effects (maybe [bar])
11:49	philscotted	duck1123: I suspect it would be easy to get carried away. My intuition is that you could pick an arbitrary predicate of the arguments, and find some function for which that predicate expresses the dependence between the pureness of the arguments and the pureness of the main function, meaning that no simple system would be sufficient.
11:55	duck1123	philscotted: I agree some functions might be difficult to pin down, but a lot of functions (those that don't take IFn's as an arg) would be relatively simple to say true or false. (defn + :side-effects false ...)
11:55	philscotted	duck1123: Agreed.
11:57	philscotted	Is Rich looking for any volunteers to proof read his documentation?
11:57	askentask	can i bind to vars defined in the same let? like (let [[x & xs] coll test (something-with x)]...
11:57	Chouser	askentask: yes, let bindings happen in order
11:57	philscotted	There are quite a lot of typos.
11:58	Chouser	philscotted: he'd probably be happy to get a list of corrections to be made
11:58	Chouser	philscotted: in .clj files or just on the web site?
11:59	philscotted	Chouser: The website. I'm happy to go through the documentation there again looking for them.
11:59	Chouser	I can't speak for him of course, but generally when people have noted mistakes he's responded positively.
12:00	drewr	He'd probably love to have corrections for stuff like that.
12:01	drewr	I haven't ever seen him respond unfavorably to genuine efforts to improve the project.
12:01	philscotted	Well for my purposes, I want Clojure to look as awesome as possible, and it would be great if the website was completely free of typos for that.
12:01	drewr	He's even kind to the cargo-cult lispers that come in complaining about stuff.
12:03	duck1123	Chouser: in response to your earlier question, doall would be considered side-effect free. That status can be tainted by the sub-forms it contains, but it itself doesn't produce any side-effects, nor does it accept any unevaluated IFn's that could change that.
12:03	duck1123	doseq, being a macro, would have to be a maybe
12:06	Lau_of_DK	Evenings gents
12:07	duck1123	evening Lau_of_DK
12:18	brill	Yeah, hej Lau_of_DK
12:19	brill	Now english is my second language - and I know what a cargo-cult is. But what is a cargo-cult lisper? I just had to ask...
12:19	duck1123	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_programming
12:20	Hun	the stuff why we still call a cdr a cdr and so on
12:20	Lau_of_DK	duck1123: based on that description, would you say cargo code is solely for python programmers?
12:23	brill	duck1123: Ah. I get it now.
12:24	Chousuke	Lau_of_DK: nothing about that is specific to any D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[C[D[Dlanguage :/
12:24	Chousuke	oops.
12:26	Lau_of_DK	hehe
12:26	Lau_of_DK	Chousuke: it was just another crack at the Python crowd )
12:26	Lau_of_DK	:)
12:28	gnuvince	Anybody here is a French speaker?
12:40	duck1123	is there an easy way to convert a inputStream into a string in Clojure
12:40	duck1123	all of the java methods are way too complicated
12:41	duck1123	I just need to read this file, and I need it as a string
12:42	Chouser	(apply str (line-seq (java.io.BufferedReader. (java.io.InputStreamReader. stream))))
12:42	Chouser	java's io api is so ugly
12:43	Chouser	shoot, that loses newlines.
12:44	danlarkin	isn't there slurp or something?
12:44	technomancy	duck1123: that drove me crazy in JRuby
12:44	Lau_of_DK	clojure/slurp
12:44	Lau_of_DK	([f])
12:44	Lau_of_DK	Reads the file named by f into a string and returns it.
12:44	Lau_of_DK
12:44	Chouser	slurp works on filenames
12:44	Chouser	not streams
12:44	Lau_of_DK	Mr. Duck said 'read this file'
12:45	danlarkin	ah :-/
12:45	hiredman	Chouser: you interleave \newline
12:45	hiredman	then str
12:46	hiredman	which, uh, may get you an extra newline at the end
12:46	Chouser	(apply str (map char (take-while pos? (repeatedly #(.read stream)))))
12:46	duck1123	I technically don't even need newlines
12:46	duck1123	in this case at least
12:48	technomancy	it looks like the sourceforge bug tracker is not being used. where do bugs get filed?
12:48	Chouser	technomancy: post to the google group
12:48	technomancy	ah, ok.
12:49	technomancy	I noticed the zip file expands in-place instead of creating a new subdirectory. This can't be intentional, can it?
12:50	Chouser	technomancy: which zip file?
12:50	Chouser	oh, the release .zip file?
12:50	technomancy	Chouser: the "download clojure" zip file
12:51	technomancy	yeah
12:51	Chouser	hm, that's more common with .zip than it is with .tar, but you could still mention it on the google group.
12:51	mmcgrana	orthogonal to your point about the zip file, I'd suggest you use Clojure head from svn
12:52	technomancy	mmcgrana: was about to ask that. =)
12:52	Chouser	at this stage of the game, many (most) people use SVN directly. But that may be changing in the next few months, so it may be good to start refining how the .zip files are built.
12:52	technomancy	Chouser: I'll mention it then.
12:54	dudleyf	JDK 7 should have better IO APIs
12:54	Chouser	if you ask me, JDK 5 should have better IO APIs.
12:55	Chouser	:-D
12:55	mmcgrana	lol
12:55	dudleyf	;-)
12:55	dudleyf	I think there's a patch for 1.6 VMs
12:56	technomancy	has there been talk of getting a "real" bug tracker, or does the google group work pretty well?
12:57	dudleyf	technomancy: So far, Rich has like a 6 hour turnaround on bugs posted to the group
12:57	Chouser	technomancy: so far it's hard to keep a bug alive long enough for a tracker to be useful. They tend to be fixed within a day or two, if not hours or minutes.
12:57	technomancy	that's awesome.
12:57	Chouser	I think once 1.0 is out, bugs may have to be tracked against multiple releases and a bug-tracker would become worth its overhead.
12:58	technomancy	sure; things get a little more complicated. also once the book is out the volume may increase.
12:59	abrooks	Chouser: Yes, but only a bug-tracker written in Clojure...
12:59	technomancy	definitely. =)
12:59	danlarkin	it'll be time for two lists
13:00	Chouser	very little of the clojure development system is written in clojure so far: no editor, no web forum, no chat system or IRC bot, no bug tracker...
13:00	Chouser	The closest we have is a netbeans plugin for clojure that includes some clojure code along with the java.
13:01	danlarkin	no need to reinvent the wheel for a lot of that stuff IMO
13:01	technomancy	yeah, slime is awesome. and it's written in lisp, which is close enough. =)
13:02	Hun	now we hava a is-a vs has-a vs might-be-close with lisp, elisp, common lisp and clojure again
13:02	Hun	whatmeworry? :)
13:03	Hun	elisp is pretty crappy.... it's okay for smaller scripting tasks, but you really don't want to know how it works
13:04	hiredman	Chouser: I have a xmpp repl bot, which could get on irc using an xmpp to irc gateway
13:04	hiredman	dunno if it still works
13:04	technomancy	Hun: they're working on that; the lexbind branch is slated for merging after the next release
13:04	duck1123	we really need something like fsbot in here
13:04	hiredman	fsbot?
13:04	duck1123	the bot of #emacs
13:04	technomancy	fsbot is awesome
13:04	tWip	written in elisp, I presume
13:05	duck1123	yeah, erbot
13:05	Hun	technomancy: the last release took 7 years...
13:05	duck1123	I tried setting up one yesterday, but couldn't get it to work
13:05	technomancy	Hun: the next one is planned for January; been in feature freeze since July
13:05	technomancy	Hun: I think they learned from their mistakes, just like Debian. =)
13:07	technomancy	brb
13:09	hiredman	so a lisp info bot
13:10	duck1123	basically, we need one for clojure though
13:10	Chouser	what would it do?
13:10	hiredman	doc function
13:10	hiredman	of course
13:10	duck1123	we should be able to say (doc foo) and have it spit out the doc
13:11	Chouser	oh. I can already do that at the repl without bothering everyone else on the channel.
13:11	hiredman	but what if you want to bother someone on the channel?
13:11	Chouser	oh! good point.
13:11	hiredman	you could teach it answers to faqs
13:11	duck1123	it comes in handy in #emacs
13:11	Hun	like slapping freshly joined people with standard documentation
13:11	Hun	also in #lisp
13:11	Chouser	bot: (bother 'hiredman)
13:12	duck1123	clojurebot: no you can't see the version number from the repl
13:13	hiredman	clojurebot: the lastest verion is x, the recomended version is y
13:14	Chouser	clojurebot: try (.getMethod (identity MyClass) ...) instead of (.getMethod MyClass ...)
13:14	hiredman	so we are all talking to something that isn't here
13:15	duck1123	one of the nice things about fsbot is it learns, you can give it new information as they come up in chat
13:15	abrooks	heh
13:15	tWip	well isn't this channel logged publicly? when the clojurebot is done, it can read the logs for learning material :)
13:15	Chouser	hiredman: he'll be able to read the logs to get up to speed.
13:15	Chouser	once he's written.
13:15	Chouser	tWip: exactly.
13:16	tWip	though one could say that people can read the logs as well
13:16	danlarkin	wow clojurebot has a lot of features for not yet existing
13:16	technomancy	sounds like a good learning project
13:16	tWip	imaginary software often is the best kind of software
13:17	Chouser	how do you retreive a stored question from the bot?
13:17	technomancy	tWip: yeah, windows Longhorn was soooo much better than Vista. =)
13:17	Pupeno	#<core$keys__494 clojure.core$keys__494@1829c6b>
13:17	Pupeno	Does macroexpand-1 always return things like that?
13:17	technomancy	Chouser: in #emacs, you can do ,term to look up a term, and ,df function-name to look up docs for functions
13:18	Chouser	Pupeno: no, it should return an s-expression of code.
13:19	Chousuke	Pupeno: are you sure your macro isn't accidentally returning some value instead of a code form?
13:24	hiredman	can you override constructors with proxy?
13:25	Pupeno	I was just forgetting to quote the expression to macroexpand, agh, I haven't written macros in ages.
13:25	Pupeno	How do you get a form evaluated inside a back-quoted expression?
13:27	phil	rhickey: I'm still trying to grok your "On State and Identity" article. Am I right in thinking the "state/identity" distinction is the same as the "reference/meaning" "extensional/intensional" distinction?
13:28	Chouser	hiredman: essentially, yes. You don't get to provide your own constructor, but you can pass the super's constructors whatever values you want.
13:28	Chouser	Pupeno: ~ or ~@
13:29	rhickey	phil: it's really more basic than that, urging separation of identity/reference from value/representation
13:29	hiredman	hmmm
13:29	hiredman	well that did nae work
13:30	rhickey	hiredman: proxy has same ctor as superclass, is flow-through to super
13:31	Pupeno	Chouser: that was I was trying... I didn't realize I had another ~ inside and that was causing the error.
13:31	Chouser	Pupeno: ah, ok
13:32	phil	rhickey: Okay, yes. I perhaps need to rephrase. I'm wondering if the points you are making can be nicely explained in those terms. For instance, something I might do in a program is say (the list of) Jill's friends is the (list of) Jack's friends. The problem in most imperative languages is that lists are mutable, so if Jack drops one of her friends, it will affect Jill. What's happened here is we've stated that "Jack's frie
13:32	phil	nds" is intensionally the same as "Jill's friends", so any change to one affects the other.
13:33	hiredman	hmm
13:33	phil	What we wanted to say was that Jack's friends and Jill's friends happen to refer to the same list, which never changes. At some point in the future, Jack may acquire a different list of friends, but this cannot affect Jill.
13:35	Chouser	hiredman: frequently when using proxy I end up with a fn that acts a bit like a constructor and may provide instance data. It then calls proxy (with appropriate constructor args) and my methods close over the instance data.
13:36	hiredman	oh
13:36	hiredman	neat
13:37	Chouser	oh, good, I was afraid that didn't make any sense.
13:38	Pupeno	Any better/shorter way to write (symbol (format "%s-bleh" 'blah))?
13:38	rhickey	phil: yes, but also that Jill may retain a persisting reference to Jack, names aside, and ask for his current list of friends at any time, so there's the list itself and the association of the list with an identity
13:39	Hun	(defn foo-postfix [name] (symbol (format "%s-bleh" name))) (foo-postfix "blah")
13:39	Chousuke	I think the "today" example in the article is a really good one.
13:40	wwmorgan	Pupeno: (symbol (str 'blah "-bleh"))
13:42	hiredman	ahem
13:42	phil	Chousuke: I didn't quite get that. I consider "today" to be
13:42	Chousuke	even if tomorrow "today" will be 22-11-2008 that doesn't mean 21-11-2008 has changed. it just lost its association with the identity "today".
13:43	Chousuke	21-11-2008 is itself an identity though. but a much more stable one than "today"
13:43	phil	I consider "today" to be merely an indexical, like "me" or "you", its meaning determined by context. Perhaps my understanding has been coloured by other subjects, which is why I was after an explanation in terms I was more familiar with.
13:44	Hun	i think of them as chomsky-0. context-sensitive identifiers
13:44	Hun	argh
13:44	Chousuke	phil: How about this: when you do @ref, you determine the value of the ref in a given context, and work with that.
13:44	Hun	chomsky-1
13:45	Chousuke	phil: in other contexts, @ref may be different, but that will not affect you
13:46	Chousuke	or: someone knocks you out for days, and when you wake up, you still might think "today" is 21-11-2008 and do decisions based on that.
13:47	Chousuke	no external entity has access to your brain to overwrite the association "today == 21-11-2008"
13:47	phil	Chousuke: I'll think on it a bit more. I'm hoping for something quite formal to capture the idea.
14:09	technomancy	I'm curious as to the motivation behind leaving out an implicit progn in if
14:09	technomancy	sorry, implicit do.
14:09	technomancy	is it just so that the true and false branches are parallel?
14:10	technomancy	oh, or to discourage side-effects... that would make sense
14:10	kotarak	technomancy: How do you decide, when the if branch is finished?
14:11	technomancy	kotarak: when it runs out of arguments? I don't understand the question.
14:12	kotarak	technomancy: If I understand you correctly, you ask why in (if (...) (do (a) (b))) the do is necessary?
14:13	technomancy	kotarak: well in other lisps the third argument to "if" is considered a "rest" arg, and it's wrapped in an implicit do.
14:13	tWip	really?
14:13	kotarak	technomancy: ok. So in (if (..) (a) (b)) is b in the else branch or not?
14:13	tWip	I don't think that's true for CL at least
14:14	tWip	or elisp or scheme
14:14	technomancy	so (if cond true-form false-form1 false-form2) becomes (if cond true-form (do false-form1 false-form2))
14:14	technomancy	kotarak: the do only wraps the last arg
14:14	technomancy	tWip: (if nil 2 3 4 5) ;; <= returns 5
14:14	tWip	ok. I stand corrected then.
14:15	Hun	tWip: it is in cl
14:15	tWip	Didn't know that. I've always just progn
14:15	technomancy	tWip: the best part about IRCing from emacs is that you can check these things as you type them. =)
14:15	tWip	+used
14:15	technomancy	but since clojure explicitly discourages side-effects, it makes sense to require an explicit do
14:17	kotarak	And from a stylistic point of view: Why should the else branch be treated differently?
14:17	tWip	ok scheme doesn't allow that
14:18	hiredman	(meta ...) works on symbols, yes?
14:18	hiredman	ah
14:19	hiredman	find-var is what I need
14:20	technomancy	kotarak: because you can only have one rest argument. but that's an implementation excuse.
14:23	technomancy	maybe this is obvious to people who've used Java before, but what do you do with a fresh checkout of the closure source?
14:23	tWip	ant
14:23	tWip	or mvn install
14:23	technomancy	cool, thanks.
14:23	tWip	both build systems are supported (build.xml is for ant, pom.xml is for maven)
14:23	technomancy	that definitely belongs in the readme
14:23	tWip	agreed
14:24	hiredman	technomancy: in clojurebot
14:25	technomancy	hiredman: or clojurebot could just say, "read the readme"
14:25	technomancy	=)
14:25	technomancy	are you guys pretty happy with SVN, or are there plans to move to a distributed system?
14:26	technomancy	not being able to fix the readme myself feels very strange after using git for so long. =)
14:26	tWip	you could send a patch to the group
14:26	duck1123	technomancy: there is a git mirror on github
14:27	Pupeno	technomancy: git-svn is your friend ;)
14:27	Pupeno	technomancy: and... what duck1123 said.
14:28	technomancy	duck1123: will check that out.
14:28	duck1123	https://github.com/kevinoneill/clojure/tree
14:28	technomancy	tWip: yeah, it's just more manual than I'm used to. not a big deal though.
14:30	technomancy	folks would certainly be more likely to submit patches for smaller things if the barrier to contribution were lower.
14:30	craigmcd	Hey guys...anyone have any examples of how you would do what used to be gen-and-save-class?
14:32	craigmcd	i.e, using the new AOT class generation.
14:33	Chouser	AOT/gen-class syntax: http://paste.lisp.org/display/70665
14:33	Chouser	the "announcement" starts here: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-11-18.html#14:19
14:34	craigmcd	thanks
14:36	lisppaste8	asken pasted "OO-system, comments?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70846
14:37	askentask	http://paste.lisp.org/display/70846
14:37	askentask	^^ askentaskens -not-so-cute- OO-system for clojure
14:37	askentask	lol bold claim, it sucks :(
14:37	askentask	but comments would be appreciated
14:38	tWip	why is the code in add-method quoted?
14:38	askentask	because i ti is evaled when called, didnt know how else to store it
14:39	askentask	i will add the obvious possibility of passing aguments to methods and more stuff
14:39	askentask	uh the example is a bit messy , ill annottate
14:39	tWip	I may be missing something, but why not just use defmulti?
14:41	askentask	because im trying to learn more about programming languages rathet than do something directly useful
14:41	lisppaste8	asken annotated #70846 with "OO-example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70846#1
14:42	tWip	are keywords replaced with accessors in method code?
14:44	askentask	yes
14:44	tWip	so you can't use keywords for other things
14:45	askentask	each instance has a spec-map and a attribute-map. when doing (call instance method-name) the method in spec will be fetched and the keywords replaced by the corresponding values
14:45	askentask	other?
14:45	askentask	i guess it will be a problem if you had a method that ocntained another method-call
14:45	askentask	no wait
14:45	askentask	it should work
14:45	tWip	I mean that you can't use keywords for their normal use then
14:46	askentask	it only replaces for keywords that arw attributes
14:46	askentask	if there is a name-clash there could be a problem
14:46	askentask	but otherwise should work
14:49	Chousuke	hmmh
14:49	hiredman	(doc str)
14:50	Chousuke	askentask: #(add-method with (first %) (second %)) methods) in spec-class is suspect
14:50	Chousuke	askentask: you're not dereferencing the ref
14:51	Chousuke	which means you're not passing add-method the instance, but a ref.
14:52	Chousuke	so (get instance :spec) tries to get :spec from the ref, not its value.
14:53	Chousuke	and it returns nil, thus an NPE is thrown
14:54	hiredman	(doc str)
14:54	askentask	Chousuke: uh yes that is not finished
14:54	askentask	spec-clas
14:55	hiredman	ok
14:55	Chousuke	redef'ing things is ugly too :)
14:55	hiredman	third time is the charm
14:55	hiredman	(doc str)
14:55	clojurebot	With no args, returns the empty string. With one arg x, returns x.toString(). (str nil) returns the empty string. With more than one arg, returns the concatenation of the str values of the args.
14:55	technomancy	hiredman: that was quick.
14:56	Chouser	hiredman: that's via xmpp?
14:56	hiredman	no
14:56	hiredman	I grabbed pircbot
14:56	Chouser	excellent
14:56	hiredman	it just does doc lookup for stuff in the clojure namespace right now
14:57	hiredman	not clojure.core :(
14:57	technomancy	hiredman: is it easy to make it store and lookup definitions?
14:57	technomancy	clojurebot: clojure
14:57	hiredman	oh, that doesn't work
14:58	hiredman	right now it just looks for (doc x)
14:58	lisppaste8	Chousuke annotated #70846 with "using -> (untested)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70846#2
14:58	Chousuke	whoops
14:58	Chousuke	forgot some extra stuff in the annotation
14:58	Chousuke	but with -> it looks almost nice
14:58	hiredman	makes a symbol out of x, resolves it to a var in the clojure ns, grabs the metadata and returns the :doc bit
14:59	technomancy	cool.
14:59	technomancy	definitions should be easy to add.
14:59	technomancy	at least, until you start to think about persistence
14:59	tWip	(doc this-should-not-exist)
14:59	lisppaste8	hiredman pasted "clojurebot" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70849
15:00	drewr	http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-05-23.html#17:33 :-)
15:00	tWip	it could warn about not finding something, or even doing some levenshtein/fuzzy matching
15:00	tWip	but nice work getting that up so quickly :)
15:00	hiredman	thank you
15:00	hiredman	it could just slurp and spit forms into a file
15:01	hiredman	I guess
15:01	hiredman	ack
15:01	hiredman	I missed a ( in that paste
15:02	hiredman	any more bits are missing, what I get for doing everything in the repl
15:05	hiredman	(doc this-should-not-exist)
15:06	hiredman	(doc this-should-not-exist)
15:06	askentask	Chousuke: yes -> makes it nicer-lookign, thanks!
15:06	hiredman	well, it was fun, but I just broke it again
15:08	hiredman	fixed, it also resposne to privmsgs
15:09	askentask	is it concurrent :)
15:09	hiredman	uh
15:09	hiredman	I know nothing about the internals of pircbot
15:10	Chousuke	askentask: actually using -> won't work because your add-method function is evil and doesn't return the rect instance
15:11	askentask	lol i noticed
15:12	Chousuke	you can either use doto or fix it to return the rect
15:12	Chousuke	though why does add-method take the instance as a parameter at all? it adds a method to the class, doesn't it?
15:13	askentask	yes
15:13	askentask	how else would it now which one?
15:14	Chousuke	you pass it the class name as a parameter perhaps.
15:14	Chousuke	or the class itself
15:15	Chousuke	as it is now, your define-class defines an instance
15:15	Chousuke	...
15:15	Chousuke	askentask: why does your connection always break when I'm talking to you? :(
15:15	hiredman	well
15:16	hiredman	call the instances prototype objects :P
15:17	Chousuke	:p
15:18	askentask	ok
15:20	askentask	i should separate the add-method from def-attribute as well. there should be first one way to specify a class then one wya to initialize them. i feeel like im messing things up
15:20	askentask	like it is all intertwined and i dont know how to separate it
15:25	Chousuke	maps make fine classes too: (def cat {:meow #(println "Meow") :sleep #(println "Generic cat sleep!")}) (def fuzzy (assoc cat :name "fuzzy" :sleep #(println "Seeing fuzzy dreams"))), ((:meow fuzzy)) (doseq [c [cat fuzzy]] ((:sleep c)))
15:27	askentask	what is mod again?
15:27	Chousuke	mod?
15:27	Chouser	rem
15:27	Chouser	think "quotiant and remainder" qout rem
15:28	askentask	ah yes
15:33	abrooks	The neurons that were wired when I was a young boy programming in BASIC on my C=64 still interprets REM as a comment (REMark). I guess DOS batch also reinforced that.
15:36	abrooks	I do wish that "rem" was "mod".
15:38	Chouser	(def mod rem)
15:38	danlei`	abrooks: well, if you're coming from the c64, we should rename poke too =)
15:38	hiredman	clojurebot: svn?
15:38	abrooks	Actually, I'm realizing that there's room for both rem and mod and that mod's missing. rem should have the sign of the dividend and mod should have the sign of the divisor.
15:38	danlei`	s/poke/peek
15:38	abrooks	(def poke set!)
15:38	danlei`	=)
15:45	askentask	if im using (reduce + (for [x...)) it is then evaled lazily right? so it is not traversing the lsit twice(but perhaps stilla bit slower )?
15:47	Chouser	reduce kills laziness, but 'for' will only generate each number for it one time.
15:48	gnuvince	~help ~markovnick
15:50	craigmcd	Chouser: thanks for the hint on the new gen-class. But why does this work fine: (.main my.Hello (into-array ["Bizarro"])), while this syntax doesn't: (my.Hello/main (into-array ["Bizarro"]))
15:50	askentask	Lucky Sevens
15:50	askentask	Write a program to compute the sum of all the integers between 1 and 1011 both divisible by seven and, when the decimal digits are reversed, are still divisible by seven.
15:50	askentask	1 and 10 raised to 11 that is
15:51	askentask	i wrote a nice short program that takes forever so i guess the problem is to find some pattern or do soem clever huge-integer-summing.
15:51	askentask	anyone know such stuff?
15:53	Chouser	craigmcd: foo/bar syntax is only for when foo is a namespace or when foo is a class and bar is a static member (method or field)
15:53	craigmcd	But my.Hello is a class and main is a static member
15:53	Chouser	oh, main is static.
15:53	Chouser	sorry, just catching up here. :-)
15:54	craigmcd	Yeah, it's almost as if the "/" syntax for static methods isn't working on generated classes
15:54	Chouser	hm... are you calling gen-class yourself, or using :genclass?
15:54	hiredman	clojurebot: svn?
15:54	craigmcd	using ":genclass"
15:55	hiredman	clojurebot: svn?
15:55	clojurebot	svn co https://clojure.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/clojure clojure
15:55	hiredman	thanks
15:55	craigmcd	and I can call this main method using "java.." from the command line and it works. and I checked the class with slime inspector, and main is really static
15:57	Chouser	ok, I don't really understand -- it should work. But here's what little I know...
15:58	Chouser	(.foo bar) expands to (. bar foo) without exception. But (foo/bar) has to figure out if foo is a class or not (at read time). If foo is a class, then it also becomes (. foo bar), otherwise it's resolved as a var in the foo namespace.
15:59	Chouser	so it's acting as those it doesn't know at read time that there's a class named my.Hello
15:59	craigmcd	hmm.. interesting. thanks
16:00	Chouser	"as though"
16:00	Chouser	but if my.Hello wasn't findable in your classpath, neither form would work. So I dunno.
16:01	Chouser	Maybe bring it up on the google group so people smarter than I can poke at it.
16:01	craigmcd	Yeah, I think I'll post that one...thanks.
16:06	duck1123	clojurebot: group?
16:10	Lau_of_DK	...
16:11	Lau_of_DK	Are there wrapper for JQuery/JSon yet, so you can stay out of the javascript stuff?
16:13	tWip	isn't Chouser's clojurescript doing that in a way
16:13	tWip	translating clojure forms to javascript, as far as I can tell
16:13	Lau_of_DK	Im not sure... thats why Im asking :)
16:14	Chousuke	what are you trying to do?
16:14	powr-toc	hey
16:14	Chousuke	write javascript in clojure?
16:14	Chousuke	or interact with something that sends you json?
16:14	Lau_of_DK	Specifically to use JSon or JQuery from Clojure
16:15	Chouser	clojurescript's currently targetted at converting clojure code forms to js code. The datastructures on the JS side are still Persistent and require a chunk of runtime support code.
16:15	tWip	json and jquery are totally different things
16:15	Lau_of_DK	Yes, but I can use either and still be happy
16:15	tWip	jquery is a full javascript library/framework and json is a serialization format
16:15	Chouser	if you want javascript Object and Array instances from clojure Map and Vector instances, you don't want clojurescript.
16:15	tWip	you can easily wrap one of the Java libs that handle JSON parse/read
16:16	Chouser	somebody's got a pure clojure json encoder though. I'll see if I can find it.
16:16	tWip	possibly with some added code to handle translation from Java Collections to native Clojure structures
16:17	jgracin	do we have a group-by or categorize-by function anywhere? Takes pred and a collection to categorize.
16:17	Chouser	jgracin: clojure.contrib.lazy-seq I think
16:17	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: http://github.com/danlarkin/clojure-json/tree/master
16:17	Lau_of_DK	jgracin: http://paste.lisp.org/display/64190
16:18	Lau_of_DK	Thanks Mr. Houser
16:18	Chouser	jgracin: sorry, clojure.contrib.seq-utils
16:18	jgracin	Chouser: thanks!
16:18	danlarkin	Heyooooo
16:18	Chouser	...which is the same as Lau_of_DK posted. Thanks, Lau_of_DK!
16:19	jgracin	Lau_of_DK: thanks
16:20	danlarkin	JSON encoder only right now, soon a decoder too, though! crosses fingers
16:20	Lau_of_DK	hehe
16:20	Chouser	danlarkin: sorry I called you 'somebody'
16:20	Lau_of_DK	danlarkin: you wouldnt happend to have any sample sites running?
16:21	danlarkin	Chouser: haha it's okay, I forgive you
16:21	danlarkin	Lau_of_DK: sample sites running?
16:21	Lau_of_DK	danlarkin: something that uses your wrapper
16:23	danlarkin	oh, no, I do not. Though someone (I forget who, I'll try to find it in the logs) a few weeks ago was saying he did
16:24	danlarkin	it's pretty easy to use, though, (org.danlarkin.json/encode-to-str sexprs)
16:25	danlarkin	ah ha, it was blackdog
16:25	Lau_of_DK	Blackdog has done some advanced stuff on the webfront, hes the guy to informed me about JSon in the first place
16:37	askentask	Chousuke: lets say i create a function spec-class that take [classname parent methods] where methods is a vector of vectors with name-functionlist pairs. how would i use -> then? i tired adding a for-comprehension but i get wrong nbr of args to for.
16:38	askentask	wait it wked with map
16:38	Chousuke	askentask: -> is just a macro
16:39	Chouser	'for' is also just a macro
16:39	Chousuke	askentask: (-> :X (:a :b)) == (:a :X :b)
16:40	Chousuke	askentask: further (-> :X (:a :b) (:c :d)) == (-> (:a :X :b) (:c :d)) == (:c (:a :X :b) :d)
16:40	askentask	eate ISeq from: spec_class__2930$fn__2932
16:40	askentask	: Don't know how to create ISe
16:42	Chousuke	you need to show the code if you paste error messages :/
16:42	Chousuke	especially cryptic ones like that. :P
16:44	askentask	it compiles but fails when called
16:44	askentask	yes
16:44	askentask	it seems lippsaste is dow
16:44	askentask	http://hpaste.org/12262
16:45	Chousuke	askentask: you're using -> wrong in the spec-class fn
16:46	askentask	hmm perhaps that shouldnt work buti dont really know how to get what i want
16:46	Chousuke	askentask: -> puts its first argument as the second item in the following form.
16:46	Chousuke	you
16:47	Lau_of_DK	(boys, did you al checkout Netbeans Svn / Enclojure plugins)
16:47	Chousuke	askentask: you're actually doing (map (define-class-no-ref classname parent) #(add-method (first %) (second %)) methods)) there
16:48	Chousuke	askentask: in the previous form, -> just exploits the fact that the rectangle is the second parameter
16:48	Chousuke	and that the methods return the rectangle
16:49	hiredman	clojurebot: group? is http://groups.google.com/group/clojure
16:49	hiredman	clojurebot: group?
16:49	clojurebot	clojurebot: group? is http://groups.google.com/group/clojure
16:50	hiredman	uh
16:50	hiredman	close but no cigar
16:51	Chousuke	for example, the first form reduces to (def rect (def-attribute (def-attribute (add-method (add-method (define-class-no-ref :rect nil) :area '(* :width :length)) :square? '(= :width :length)) :width 10) :length 20)))
16:51	technomancy	hiredman: can you put up the source to clojurebot?
16:51	hiredman	sure
16:51	hiredman	it is rather shameful
16:52	technomancy	well this is my first day with clojure, so you can be sure I won't judge.
16:52	technomancy	can you toss it on github or something?
16:52	Chousuke	askentask: do you see how -> works now? :)
16:52	hiredman	uh, well, uh, I guess
16:52	hiredman	I'd have to figure out git
16:53	technomancy	hiredman: or whatever SCM you prefer; heh
16:53	tWip	I'm intrigued by git as well... currently using google code hosting for webjure
16:53	tWip	and SVN on that
16:53	hiredman	technomancy: for now how about a plain http link?
16:54	technomancy	hiredman: that works for now.
16:54	technomancy	since I probably won't have much to contribute at this point
16:54	technomancy	tWip: you should give it a shot; it can dramatically lower the barrier to contribution.
16:54	hiredman	http://www.thelastcitadel.com/lab/clojurebot.clj
16:55	technomancy	tWip: or any DSCM really, but git seems to have the most momentum
16:55	tWip	I did use darcs for some code, but didn't like it
16:55	hiredman	bits missing to actually run, because I started off monkeying around in the repl
16:55	Chousuke	git and mercurial are both nice.
16:55	Chousuke	mercurial is slower than git, but works better on windows :)
16:55	hiredman	I use bzr
16:55	technomancy	nothing wrong with bzr
16:56	technomancy	*for projects without tons and tons of history, at least
16:56	hiredman	heh
16:56	Chousuke	git is probably the fastest VCS around :P
16:56	technomancy	hiredman: they're trying to move Emacs to bzr, but it takes ages to do anything with it. =\
16:57	technomancy	bzr log takes several minutes.
16:58	Chousuke	:/
16:58	hiredman	anyway, clojurebot is still one file, a hair less then 100 lines
16:58	rottcodd	Chouser: the symbol-macrolet spec is here http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_symbol.htm
16:58	technomancy	Chousuke: well it does go back further than I've been alive. but still...
16:58	Chousuke	technomancy: :)
16:58	hiredman	the github paste thing
16:59	askentask	(defn spec-class [classname parent methods]
16:59	Chousuke	technomancy: git log should be fast. it's designed to work well with browsing the entire history (it's slower if you need the history of one file)
17:00	askentask	(let [inst (define-class-no-ref classname parent)]
17:00	askentask	(map #(add-method inst (first %) (second %)) methods)))
17:00	askentask	wtf
17:00	askentask	sorry
17:00	askentask	that works , but not correctly :P
17:00	technomancy	Chousuke: it may not be the fairest comparison, true
17:00	Chousuke	wonder if there's an emacs git repo anywhere.
17:01	askentask	it creates 2 different instances rather than one
17:01	askentask	one for each method
17:01	Chouser	rottcodd: ok, thanks.
17:02	technomancy	Chousuke: git://git.sv.gnu.org/emacs.git
17:02	hiredman	clojurebot: group? is http://groups.google.com/group/clojure
17:02	hiredman	clojurebot: group?
17:02	technomancy	but it takes like 30m since there's so much history to pull
17:02	hiredman	ugh, something, somewhere is swallowing exceptions
17:04	Chousuke	I wonder how huge that repo is.
17:05	technomancy	172 MB
17:05	technomancy	if you can get it from someone locally it would be less cruel to their server; heh.
17:05	Chousuke	still, a clone will probably be faster than most SVN repos I've had to check out :(
17:05	Chousuke	especially on google code
17:06	technomancy	Chousuke: for most projects, yes. but emacs' history is insaaaaane.
17:06	Chousuke	well, yeah
17:06	technomancy	oh... you can do a shallow clone if you don't care about history
17:06	technomancy	git clone --depth=100 [...]
17:06	Chousuke	nah, I want all of it.
17:06	technomancy	going to do some code archeology? =)
17:07	Chousuke	perhaps :P
17:07	Chousuke	hm
17:08	Chousuke	not very speedy. only ~100kB/s :/
17:10	Chousuke	Well, at least I don't have to do a CVS -> git import
17:10	Chousuke	that would take weeks
17:21	Chouser	no docs yet, and some functionality turned off for security reasons, but if anyone wants to try it: http://clojurescript.n01se.net/
17:23	hiredman	clojurebot: mutable state is bad
17:23	clojurebot	Ok.
17:23	mmcgrana	cool! congrats on getting this up
17:23	hiredman	clojurebot: mutable state?
17:23	hiredman	weird
17:24	Chouser	javascript interop example: (set! (-> document .body .style .background) "red")
17:25	mmcgrana	nice
17:28	hiredman	clojurebot: mutable state is bad
17:28	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
17:28	hiredman	clojurebot: mutable state?
17:28	clojurebot	mutable state is bad
17:29	Chouser	hiredman: nice. will such facts survive power disruption?
17:29	hiredman	not yet
17:29	hiredman	right now they go into a ref
17:29	Chouser	very good.
17:31	technomancy	clojurebot: svn?
17:31	clojurebot	svn co https://clojure.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/clojure clojure
17:31	hiredman	clojurebot: clojurescript is Chouser's baby
17:31	clojurebot	Ok.
17:31	Chouser	clojurebot: baby?
17:31	clojurebot	Excuse me?
17:31	Chouser	clojurebot: clojurescript?
17:31	clojurebot	clojurescript is Chouser's baby
17:31	hiredman	clojurebot: clojurescript?
17:31	clojurebot	clojurescript is Chouser's baby
17:31	technomancy	clojurebot: botsnack is delicious.
17:31	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
17:32	technomancy	clojurebot: botsnack
17:32	clojurebot	botsnack is delicious.
17:32	technomancy	clojurebot: botsnack is delicious. (nom nom nom)
17:32	clojurebot	Roger.
17:33	technomancy	eventually he'll need to have some terms that don't get echoed with the "foo is" prefix
17:33	hiredman	yeah
17:34	technomancy	so someone can say: clojurebot: botsnack, and he'll say: thanks! (nom nom nom)
17:34	technomancy	but... priorities. =)
17:35	hiredman	I can add a deal where if the definition is prefixed with <reply> he drops the is, like an infobot
17:35	technomancy	something like that, yeah.
17:36	technomancy	should put it in a bzr repo so others can help. =)
17:37	sohail	technomancy, out of curiosity, why bzr vs git? (I use bzr personally)
17:37	technomancy	sohail: I use git too, but hiredman said he used bzr
17:38	Lau_of_DK	Theres a wiki which compares next to all known version control systems, proprietary and free
17:39	Lau_of_DK	clojurebot: Produce link to above mentioned wiki
17:39	clojurebot	Excuse me?
17:39	Lau_of_DK	clojurebot: OBEY
17:39	clojurebot	Excuse me?
17:49	Chousuke	http://keithp.com/blogs/Repository_Formats_Matter/ this was a rather interesting read.
17:52	Chousuke	heh
17:52	Chousuke	tried git log on the emacs repo
17:52	Chousuke	it was instant
17:53	tWip	isn't git Linus' brainchild?
17:53	Chousuke	first commit message: "entered into RCS" by Jim Blandy at Date: Thu Apr 18 00:48:29 1985 +0000
17:53	technomancy	Chousuke: there's some fun stuff way back there. =)
17:53	Chousuke	yeah
17:54	hiredman	jesus
17:54	drewr	tWip: Yes.
17:54	Chousuke	I didn't expect the log command to be that fast though.
17:54	Chousuke	it took no time at all
17:54	tWip	it's funny how quickly it overtook cvs/svn/others in the hacker mindset
17:55	tWip	Linus' google tech talk on the subject is epic. He really lets SVN people have it.
17:55	Chousuke	tWip: well, one of the largest and most influential open source projects switched to it. :P
17:55	technomancy	tWip: for me github sealed the deal
17:56	technomancy	it makes it trivial to start helping out with a project
17:56	Chousuke	maybe people also noticed that DVCS systems can do everything a centralised one can. usually better, too.
17:56	tWip	so github is sourceforge for git?
17:56	tWip	the page seems clearer, I dislike the "new" sourceforge
17:56	technomancy	tWip: depends on your opinion of sourceforge. =)
17:57	Chousuke	I also like the fact that setting up a repository is rather trivial.
17:57	Lau_of_DK	tWip: yes
17:57	Chousuke	just git init in a directory and then give someone ssh access to it :P
17:57	Chousuke	kotarak: more or less, yeah
17:57	technomancy	tWip: it's just focused on code (rather than issues, mailing lists, etc.) but it does that really really well.
17:57	Chousuke	kotarak: they all have different stregths though.
17:57	kotarak	yes
17:58	hiredman	clojurebot: hg is <reply>kotarak prefers hg
17:58	clojurebot	Roger.
17:58	technomancy	tWip: makes it really easy to track what's going on in all the projects you're interested in; has great visualizations for how branches are interacting, etc.
17:58	hiredman	clojurebot: hg?
17:58	clojurebot	kotarak prefers hg
17:58	Chousuke	git is fast and efficient; hg and bzr are easier to use and more portable.
17:58	kotarak	hg is also fast
17:58	Chousuke	not as fast as git though
17:58	kotarak	fast enough for me, at least
17:58	Lau_of_DK	clojurebot: bye is <reply>/part #clojure
17:58	clojurebot	Roger.
17:59	Lau_of_DK	clojurebot: bye?
17:59	clojurebot	/part #clojure
17:59	hiredman	clojurebot doesn't do "also" yet
17:59	Lau_of_DK	:\|
17:59	hiredman	Lau_of_DK: cute
17:59	Lau_of_DK	Thanks
17:59	kotarak	http://changelog.complete.org/archives/698-if-version-control-systems-were-airlines
18:00	technomancy	kotarak: that page is hilarious
18:00	kotarak	technomancy: I think I was laughing ten minutes
18:00	technomancy	I love the SVN merging room where everyone is given a brick and only one person comes out.
18:01	technomancy	I still haven't hacked on any projects that use hg though.
18:02	technomancy	I'm afraid to build Mozilla, and don't have much to do with the Sun world.
18:03	kotarak	patch queues are simply awesome...
18:03	kotarak	Can't live without 'em anymore.
18:03	tWip	to be totally honest, I never really cared much about version control
18:04	tWip	of course, you'd have to be crazy not to use some, but mostly I'm working on code alone
18:05	rzezeski	even if you are working on it alone, it's nice to see your iterations, or to roll back to a working copy
18:05	kotarak	I'm also working alone. But I also often experiment.
18:05	kotarak	With vc it's much easier to get back to a sane state. :)
18:05	tWip	oh I see that, experimenting with SVN means you don't commit :)
18:06	Lau_of_DK	Chousuke: Thank you for that link, it was an interesting read indeed
18:06	tWip	branching/merging is still too painful for real work
18:06	Lau_of_DK	(rhymes incl free of charge)
18:06	kotarak	Experimenting with hg and mq is a breeze.
18:06	rzezeski	you can experiment while commiting in SVN, it's called a feature branch
18:06	rzezeski	sure it's not as easy as the latest and greatest VC's, but it's not impossible, just a little more annoying
18:07	tWip	yes but "not impossible" isn't a ringing endorsement
18:07	technomancy	mercurial has a bisect tool, right?
18:07	lisppaste8	Chouser pasted "clojurescript js interop" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70859
18:07	rzezeski	Oh I'm not saying it is, if you have the choice you should certainly pick whatever you are most comfortable with, but in the workplace you don't always have that choice
18:07	technomancy	tWip: reminds me of the Vista reviews. "It's not so bad."
18:07	Chouser	sorry to paste and run -- dinner time.
18:08	rzezeski	I have to work with SVN, and personally I don't mind it especially since I used to have to work with CVS
18:08	Lau_of_DK	Chouser: thats awesome man
18:08	Lau_of_DK	Nice work
18:08	tWip	we use SVN at work also
18:09	Chousuke	I have my own "feature branch" of clojure :p
18:09	Chousuke	currently it just contains one commit that uncomments the add-.clj-files ant directive
18:10	tWip	is everyone using ant btw?
18:10	tWip	because I use Maven 2
18:10	technomancy	just because I've read horror stories about ant's executable XML and greenspun's tenth law
18:10	rzezeski	I prefer Maven, but Maven too has many flaws
18:10	technomancy	but I've heard my fair share of maven horror stories too
18:10	Chousuke	but at least I don't have to edit it every time the master branch changes. git rebase master applies all changes, then applies my uncomment patch
18:11	tWip	well the more convoluted Maven plugin configs are pretty horrific also
18:11	kotarak	technomancy: yes, hg has bisect
18:11	tWip	that's not the word I want, is it
18:11	rzezeski	I converted a fairly large project using Ant over to Maven and it was NOT an easy task
18:11	Chousuke	it's so easy to handle branching in git that you start doing them for the most trivial of things
18:11	rzezeski	Don't even try to use the release plugin or deployment plugins
18:12	hiredman	ugh
18:12	tWip	well Maven has dependency management, which is good
18:12	technomancy	seems like a build system should be written in clojure if you can ship it as bytecode to solve the chicken-and-egg problem
18:12	tWip	for some value of "good"
18:12	Chousuke	technomancy: a clojure build system would be nice. :)
18:12	hiredman	I hate that all the java build systems grab deps from all over the none universe while you are trying to build
18:12	rzezeski	yes that's probably is biggest selling point, until you get a bunch of transitive dependencies in your EAR and you wonder how the f they got there
18:12	tWip	hiredman: how is that different to say perl?
18:13	tWip	or python, or ruby? don't they do the same thing
18:13	tWip	or ASDF-INSTALL for that matter
18:13	technomancy	with ruby you get all your deps from the same server at least.
18:13	hiredman	now that you mention it, I am not a huge fan of ruby gems
18:14	hiredman	but gems, at least you issue an install command to go get them
18:14	tWip	I quite like the maven style (when it works)
18:14	hiredman	a lot of maven/ant deals just go grab them when you type "ant"
18:14	tWip	Just add deps to your project definition and they are available
18:15	rzezeski	Maven is great if your project sticks to the main plugins and strictly follows Maven conventions
18:15	rzezeski	otherwise it can be just as bad, if not worse, than Ant
18:15	tWip	the downside is that a poorly made dependency (like say a wrong or missing scope) can grab 10 megabytes of useless stuff to your build
18:16	rzezeski	Maven...great idea...ok implementation
18:16	tWip	having sometimes forgotten to add a scope=test and seen a tenfold increase in the build artifact size :P
18:16	tWip	I think there is a dep manager for ant called Ivy iirc
18:17	rzezeski	you can use Maven as a dep manager for Ant
18:17	technomancy	the great thing about being part of such a young language community is that you can have a say in how such a build system would work. =)
18:17	tWip	I'd say 1) no XML
18:17	tWip	but your mileage may vary
18:17	technomancy	tWip: of course no XML
18:17	technomancy	should be a given. =)
18:19	tWip	maybe that system should include a CPAN style or cliki.net style common place to find relevant libs
18:19	tWip	but I fear reinventing the wheel
18:20	danlarkin	like pypi
18:21	technomancy	tWip: IMHO a package manager is inevitable
18:22	tWip	might be
18:25	technomancy	I don't think it should be part of the build system though.
18:26	tWip	but problems like source control, unit testing or build issues are never as interesting as the problems themselves :)
18:26	technomancy	true
18:26	tWip	so it may take considerable time to get those
18:27	tWip	but what's the rush... better to do it right, than to do it fast
18:32	technomancy	well, it's pretty easy to look at other package managers to see what they do wrong
18:32	tWip	yes, and then you are the fodder for the next generation of package managers
18:33	tWip	it's hard to get right, but for most uses "almost right" may suffice
18:34	tWip	every build system and package manager has had their fair share of weak points
18:36	technomancy	but most of the weak points of the package managers I've used are just, "we haven't gotten to that point yet" kind of problems.
18:39	tWip	interesting talks, have to sleep now as I have a 3 hour drive in the morning
18:39	technomancy	later.
18:39	tWip	bye
18:46	powr-toc	how are lazy-cons sequences garbage collected? Presumably it's when the reference to the lazy-seq is lost?
18:50	hiredman	(doc defmethod)
18:50	clojurebot	Creates and installs a new method of multimethod associated with dispatch-value.
18:51	danlarkin	hiredman: HEYOooooo
18:51	hiredman	that wasn't very useful though
18:51	danlarkin	powr-toc: right, if there's no reference to data the jvm will clean it up according to its GC scheme
19:00	mmcgrana	So I'm playing around with my html doc generator right now and I've come across a few things in the Clojure source: let me know if anyone has any thoughts on this stuff:
19:00	mmcgrana	- clojure.core/! is still in there
19:01	mmcgrana	- several of the named-vars don't have docstrings, e.g. file and err
19:01	hiredman	clojurebot: defmethod docstrings is <reply>defmethods don't get docstrings :(
19:01	clojurebot	Roger.
19:02	mmcgrana	- in clojure.contrib.seq-utils, I think flatten and seperate could use (remove f... instead of (filter (complement f) ....
19:02	mmcgrana	- again in seq-utils, group-by and partitioin-by seem to have their arg vectors in the wrong spot relative to the docstring
19:04	mmcgrana	maybe i should just make some patches and post them to the group
19:05	danlarkin	mmcgrana: that would be productive
19:07	mmcgrana	i still have to send a CA in, so it will be a few days of turnaround. clearly no hurry on this stuff though.
19:32	hiredman	woa
19:33	hiredman	so, I am compiling some clj that uses (rand-int ...) and it is generating a lot of class files
19:34	Chouser	one class file per fn
19:34	Chouser	at least
19:34	hiredman	uh
19:34	hiredman	much more
19:34	hiredman	ok
19:35	hiredman	so I get and exception like: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: hiredman.clojurebot$random_response__706 (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
19:35	hiredman	evertime I run (compile ...)
19:36	hiredman	different everytime, and everytime in generates more class files in ~/classes
19:36	mmcgrana	inner, anonymous functions maybe, like #(+ % 2) ?
19:36	hiredman	uh
19:36	hiredman	there are over 600 of them right now
19:37	hiredman	clojurebot$random_response__97.class
19:37	hiredman	etc
19:37	hiredman	lisppaste8: url
19:37	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
19:38	lisppaste8	hiredman pasted "random-response" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70864
19:38	Chouser	since the classes are given unique names, running compile will make more class files each time you run
19:38	Chouser	If you want a minimal set of class files, clear out your classes dir and do one compile.
19:39	hiredman	Chouser: the compile always ends with a class not found exception
19:40	Chouser	make sure you have ./classes in your classpath, and that the dir exists before you start java
19:40	hiredman	aht may be it, maybe ./classes is not in my cp
19:42	hiredman	oops
19:43	hiredman	that was the wrong repl to close
19:43	Chouser	heh
19:44	hiredman	ugh
19:49	technomancy	is this true?
19:50	Chouser	you mean automatically?
19:50	Chouser	I shouldn't answer, I don't know. I use rlwrap
19:50	technomancy	right; like you have to manually add it to your CLI invocation
19:50	Chouser	that seems likely
19:50	technomancy	that... is terrible.
19:50	technomancy	but I forgot about rlwrap
19:51	technomancy	is that just a limitation of java then? no good way to take advantage of system-level libraries?
19:53	Chouser	sorry, I don't really know. I thought jline was a java lib, in which case it would be a matter of adding it to your classpath and clojure's repl knowing to look for it.
19:53	Chousuke	technomancy: you need to explicitly call jline for it to work
19:53	powr-toc	technomancy: no it's not a limitation of java... as chooser says, it just needs to be on the classpath
19:54	Chousuke	clojure never even knows jline is there.
19:54	technomancy	it just seems strange that apt-get doesn't place it on the classpath automatically
19:54	technomancy	(the classpath is basically just java's load path, right?)
19:54	Chousuke	As far as I know, jline just wraps some classes and filters input before it reaches clojure.
19:54	powr-toc	technomancy: well, with java, that's usually a bad thing
19:55	Chousuke	technomancy: you can add it to $CLASSPATH :)
19:55	powr-toc	$CLASSPATH is evil though
19:56	Chousuke	well, it works :P
19:56	technomancy	just seems like it's busywork. what's the point of a package manager if it can't install libraries in the right place for you?
19:56	powr-toc	I mean it's fine for toying about, but it'll bite you in the ass later if you're not careful
19:56	Chousuke	technomancy: it does install them in the right place.
19:57	technomancy	Chousuke: in my mind the right place is somewhere where clojure can use it.
19:57	Chousuke	technomancy: that can be anywhere.
19:57	Chousuke	technomancy: besides, clojure doesn't use jline.
19:57	Chousuke	the wrapper script does.
19:58	technomancy	ok... obviously I am missing some big piece of the puzzle, so I'll just stay quiet until I know what I'm talking about.
19:58	powr-toc	technomancy: just start clojure with: java -cp /path/to/clojure.jar:/path/to/jline.jar clojure.lang.Repl
19:58	powr-toc
19:58	Chousuke	technomancy: in the wrapper script, it's just one additional element in the classpath specification.
19:58	Chousuke	technomancy: in general, you don't want system wide libraries automatically in your classpath
19:58	technomancy	Chousuke: that's what I don't understand.
19:59	technomancy	it works great for every other language.
19:59	powr-toc	technomancy: if the package manager were to set your classpath system wide for you, you'd likely end up with horrendous version conflicts... between different programs
20:00	Chousuke	technomancy: java is different :)
20:00	technomancy	oh, is there no way to state dependencies on specific versions then?
20:00	Chousuke	technomancy: avoids a whole lot of problems by being explicit.
20:01	Chousuke	technomancy: you specify the appropriate versions in your classpath and there is no problem.
20:01	powr-toc	technomancy: jar files in and of themselves; don't know what they depend on.
20:03	technomancy	to me it all just sounds like, "make the user do the work the computer normally does". but... I'm just getting used to it, maybe once I start using it things will make sense.
20:03	Chouser	technomancy: your instincts are rational. I had a similar conversation several months ago.
20:04	Chousuke	technomancy: it's still possible to have a system-wide classpath
20:04	technomancy	I'll just try to keep my dependencies on Java code to a minimum. Sounds like a headache.
20:04	Chousuke	technomancy: but as said before, that might break things.
20:04	Chouser	technomancy: I was arguing with Rich (which is a bad sign in itself) and ended up dropping it not because I was convinced java is right but because I trusted the people that had the opposing opinion.
20:05	Chousuke	technomancy: that helps. or you can be lazy and wrap all the deps in a single .jar :/
20:05	technomancy	Chouser: yeah, my first day trying clojure/java is not a good time for me to get in an argument about this kind of thing.
20:05	Chouser	I'm still not fully convinced -- it seems odd to me every time I write an app and have to adjust my clojure command-line to set up the dependencies on .jar's I've already apt install'ed.
20:06	technomancy	Chousuke: then when a security update gets published, it's my fault if stuff doesn't get updated. =\
20:06	Chousuke	I think java's way of doing things is the only sane way if you want to maintain the "write once, run anywhere" illusion :p
20:06	powr-toc	technomancy: java 7 is supposedly going to introduce superpackages with jsr 294
20:06	Chouser	but it's not so terrible to work around, and having just built my first stand-alone jar with all the deps bundled inside, I'm wodering if I'm getting closer to the 'goodness'.
20:07	technomancy	worse still, the users will think to themselves: "I've run an apt-get upgrade to pull in the new versions, so I shouldn't be vulnerable", but the bundled versions don't get touched.
20:07	Chousuke	technomancy: the bundled versions are inside your own .jar. you need to make a new release.
20:08	powr-toc	Chouser: I can't speak for clojure so much, but in Java I tend to throw all my apps jars into a single directory, and use a shell script to pull all *.jar's in and build the classpath string dynamically
20:08	technomancy	Chousuke: right, but that's the kind of problem a package manager is designed to avoid.
20:08	Chousuke	technomancy: or you can make your software so that it sets it classpath properly.
20:08	powr-toc	then you just manage whats in the directory
20:08	Chousuke	its*
20:08	technomancy	I can never be as timely in my releases as Ubuntu
20:08	Chousuke	technomancy: so that it refers to the system-installed libraries
20:08	Chousuke	or you can count on the distributor to do it for you :D
20:09	technomancy	but the locations of those libraries will be different on every OS, so the distributor has to do it
20:09	Chouser	Chousuke: but even setting the class path from inside your app is discouraged, which means if you want to do it right you've got to do it in shell script or something.
20:10	Chousuke	technomancy: that's what ./configure solves for most apps... I wonder if there's some similar mechanism for java.
20:10	Chousuke	libs certainly aren't all in the same place accross all systems.
20:10	Chousuke	across*
20:11	powr-toc	Chousuke: there are systems for that kinda thing... maven etc... but they're not really worth the hassle unless you REALLY need them
20:11	powr-toc	and they're more for build time resolution
20:11	Chousuke	well, yeah
20:11	Chousuke	I guess it's as if java does "linking" at startup time I guess.
20:12	powr-toc	Chousuke: that's exactly what it does
20:13	Chousuke	Actually, it seems to me compiled apps don't have a real advantage. You still need to specify the lib paths correctly at compile time.
20:14	Chousuke	compile-time-linked apps*
20:15	powr-toc	Chousuke: they can be relative though, and in java classes can be loaded in at runtime... and not necessarily from the filesystem... I'd imagine clojure makes use of this to provide compilation from the repl etc...
20:15	Chousuke	hmm, yeah
20:15	Chousuke	every function is compiled into its own class and loaded.
20:16	Chousuke	in the end, the java system is much more complex, but also much more flexible :/
20:17	powr-toc	Chousuke: there isn't really a notion of compile-time-linked (assuming you mean statically linked) in java... it's linked at runtime...
20:19	Chousuke	that's what I thought; earlier I meant "traditional" apps, like ones coded in C.
20:19	powr-toc	Chousuke: yeah... I just re-read what you'd written... and got that sense :-)
20:37	sohail	well it's official
20:37	sohail	visual studio is stupid
20:39	technomancy	... and?
20:40	quuxman	hi. I just downloaded clojure and I'm having a lot of trouble getting it to run with jline
20:40	quuxman	it runs by itself just fine, but when I try to run it with jline.ConsoleRunner I get: ClassNotFoundException: clojure.lang.Repl
20:42	Chousuke	hmm :/
20:42	Chousuke	runs without jline?
20:42	quuxman	Chousuke: yeah, with the exact same command classpath, or with none at all
20:42	danlarkin	quuxman: had somebody in here the other day with the same problem, I'll tell you the same thing I told him: try rlwrap, works for me :)
20:43	Chousuke	I don't use either
20:43	Chousuke	I just use SLIME :P
20:44	quuxman	danlarkin: Thanks. Guess that'll have to do for now... no tab completion though.
20:44	Chousuke	quuxman: there's info for that on the wiki
20:44	quuxman	Chousuke: with rlwrap? How does that work?
20:44	Chousuke	well readline can do tab completion
20:45	quuxman	I'm just curious how it communicates with clojure
20:45	Chousuke	so you just need to generate a list of completions for it to use
20:45	Chousuke	it doesn't
20:45	Chousuke	it just blindly tabcompletes what you have in the completion file.
20:45	quuxman	Chousuke: oh, that's lame ;)
20:45	Chousuke	if you want something better, use emacs and SLIME :p
20:45	quuxman	I'm a vim guy
20:46	Chousuke	yeah, so was I
20:46	danlarkin	rlwrap works with completions well enough for my REPLing, but I'm mostly in emacs/SLIME too
20:47	Chousuke	emacs is a good enough vi for me ;P
20:47	Chousuke	has a few glitches though, but works.
20:47	Chousuke	I use the editor in some half-vi half-emacs way nowadays
20:48	quuxman	Chousuke: I may actually check out viper and vimpulse.el when I have some time... or is it really easy to set up?
20:48	Chousuke	quuxman: it wasn't that hard.
20:49	Chousuke	viper comes with emacs and vimpulse.el is just one file to download. and has instructions
20:49	quuxman	Chousuke: ok cool. Ack, I don't even have emacs installed :-P
20:50	Chousuke	sometimes enabling other modes throws me out of viper mode, but you can always get back to it with M-x viper-mode
20:50	cooldude127	Chousuke: can't get much easier to setup than that lol
20:50	Chouser	Chousuke: C-z often seems to do it
20:51	Chousuke	quuxman: I dunno if it works for you, but I tolerated emacs just for SLIME. viper is a bonus.
20:51	Chousuke	Chouser: manually running clojure-mode does it too :/
20:51	Chousuke	until I added a hook to run viper-mode whenever clojure-mode is run :P
20:52	Chouser	Chousuke: sorry, I meant C-z often gets me back into viper mode if the new buffer kicked me out
20:52	Chousuke	for me that just minimises emacs.
20:52	Chouser	ha! ok.
20:52	Chousuke	I suppose viper does that on level 3
20:52	Chouser	I'm on level 3
20:53	Chousuke	... hmm
20:54	Chousuke	oh, well. having to type the occasional M-x viper-mode is not too bad :P
20:55	Chousuke	It's sad but emacs really beats vim to the ground in flexibility.
20:55	Chouser	it's ok. you can let your editor run you instead of the other way around.
20:56	Chouser	if it want's you to type M-x viper-mode every so often, you'd better just comply.
20:56	Chouser	:-)
20:56	Chousuke	I may figure out how to fix that some time.
20:56	Chousuke	I'm still an emacs newbie so I may be doing something wrong.
20:58	quuxman	where would I find my site-lisp directory?
20:58	quuxman	(to put vimpulse.el)
20:59	quuxman	ah: /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp
20:59	danlei	quuxman: you can put it everywhere you want and (add-to-list 'load-path "/path/to/files")
20:59	danlei	+/
21:00	Chousuke	I'm going to get some sleep now though. Good night.
21:00	quuxman	w00t... rectangular edit actually works with vimpulse. First vim clone I've used that actually bothers with such a crucial feature
21:00	quuxman	though the undu is fucked
21:01	quuxman	redo does not do what I expect
21:01	Chousuke	I think there was something about redo in the instructions.
21:01	Chouser	I think you do use . to keep undoing further. u again to switch directions
21:01	danlei	it's more like in the original vi
21:01	quuxman	Chousuke: oh interesting
21:02	quuxman	er, Chouser. Damn your nicks are too similar
21:02	Chouser	yeah, I know.
21:03	Chousuke	well, not as bad as drewr and drewc at least!
21:04	quuxman	I'll laugh if I ever alias vim=emacs
21:04	Chousuke	I see drewr-` has grown a tail!
21:08	quuxman	how do I get rid of the menu at the top?
21:08	quuxman	(in emacs)
21:09	quuxman	ah: M-x menu-bar-mode
21:10	quuxman	now it's just a question of how I get clojure running in emacs
21:10	Chousuke	the instructions in the wiki should work
21:10	Chousuke	but you'll need a more recent version of clojure
21:10	Chousuke	preferably SVN HEAD :p
21:11	Chousuke	the download version is quite ancient.
21:12	Chousuke	anyway, I'm off
21:21	quuxman	wow, this is kind of like the best of both worlds... most vim commands work _and_ a lot of emacs commands
21:22	quuxman	most importantly M-x foo
21:22	rzezeski	does it really feel like Vim? I'm trying to relearn Emacs right now and it just doesn't feel right to my fingers
21:22	clojurebot	Goliath Online
21:22	danlei	don't be surprised. emacs is the lord
21:23	quuxman	how do I disable the annoying start message?
21:23	danlei	(setq inhibit-splash-screen t)
21:23	quuxman	danlei: thanks :)
21:25	danlei	btw: i just let emacs run all the time. (emacsclient & (start-server))
21:27	quuxman	anybody have a cute little clojure program I can fool around with to get my feet wet? Preferrably a simple graphics program
21:27	danlei	there is one at the home page, under java interop, iirc
21:29	danlei	ah, no under "hosted on the jvm"
21:29	danlei	and there is always the ant simulation
21:31	quuxman	where do I find the ant simulation?
21:32	danlei	a sec
21:33	danlei	http://clojure.blip.tv/file/812787?filename=Richhickey-ClojureConcurrency252.flv and the program should be linked there
21:34	danlei	theres also a never version under files at the google group page, i guess
21:35	danlei	*newer
21:35	quuxman	cool, I just ran the little temperature converter program
21:36	quuxman	works fine aside from the god-awful fonts swing is using
21:36	danlei	hm
21:36	danlei	you're under linux?
21:36	quuxman	ubuntu
21:36	quuxman	but I'm not about to jump in to a mire of font configuration fun
21:36	danlei	(javax.swing.UIManager/setLookAndFeel "com.sun.java.swing.plaf.gtk.GTKLookAndFeel") maybe helps
21:43	danlei	clojurebot: help
21:46	clojurebot	clojurebot got moved to svn head, so now, of course, nothing works
21:48	quuxman	what does this line do: (def frame (doto (new JFrame) (.add panel) .pack .show)) ; ?
21:49	danlei	you mean the doto?
21:49	Chouser	it calls add, pack and show methods of the new JFrame
21:49	Chouser	then stores that JFrame in frame
21:49	quuxman	ok. But the program never uses frame
21:49	danlei	well
21:49	danlei	.show
21:49	quuxman	oh I see
21:50	quuxman	so it shows a window as a side affect and runs the rest of the program
21:51	danlei	doto just makes the object implicit in the method calls
21:51	danlei	without it,
21:51	danlei	you'd have to evaluate (.show frame), for example
21:52	quuxman	presumably if you were just calling one method you could say: ((nej JFrame).add panel) ; ?
21:53	quuxman	or does it not work like that
21:53	danlei	(.add (JFrame.) panel)
21:53	danlei	basically, yes
21:53	danlei	(.add (new JFrame) panel)
21:53	quuxman	how is .add in scope? What if another object had an add method
21:53	danlei	well, jframe is an argument to .add, so its clear
21:54	quuxman	crazy
21:54	danlei	foo.bar -> (.bar foo)
21:54	danlarkin	.method is reader syntax
21:54	danlarkin	http://clojure.org/java_interop
22:14	hiredman	(doc defmethod)
22:14	clojurebot	Creates and installs a new method of multimethod associated with dispatch-value.
22:14	arohner	oh that's cool
22:14	hiredman	clojurebot: botsnack
22:14	clojurebot	botsnack is delicious. (nom nom nom)
22:14	danlei	(+ 1 2)
22:14	hiredman	heh
22:14	danlei	:)
22:14	hiredman	just doc string lookups
22:15	hiredman	from clojure.core
22:15	danlei	(doc conj)
22:15	clojurebot	conj[oin]. Returns a new collection with the xs 'added'. (conj nil item) returns (item). The 'addition' may happen at different 'places' depending on the concrete type.
22:15	danlei	nice
22:15	danlei	the format is a little messed up, though
22:16	danlei	clojurebot: botsnack
22:16	clojurebot	botsnack is delicious. (nom nom nom)
22:16	hiredman	yeah, well, yes
22:16	danlei	is the source online?
22:16	hiredman	uh
22:16	hiredman	sort of
22:16	hiredman	I was just going to get around to that in a better way
22:17	danlei	sure
22:19	hiredman	http://gist.github.com/27733
22:20	danlei	hiredman: thanks
22:21	hiredman	np
22:21	danlarkin	(doc test
22:21	clojurebot	I don't understand.
22:21	danlarkin	(doc coll?
22:21	clojurebot	I don't understand.
22:21	danlarkin	touch�, clojurebot
22:22	hiredman	(doc coll?)
22:22	clojurebot	Returns true if x implements IPersistentCollection
22:23	danlarkin	I wanted to see if it'd respond to a (doc without a closing paren
22:26	danlarkin	clojurebot: svn
22:26	clojurebot	svn co https://clojure.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/clojure clojure
22:27	rzezeski	clojurebot: a/s/l?
22:27	clojurebot	Excuse me?
22:27	rzezeski	:)
22:27	danlei	clojurebot: lisp?
22:27	clojurebot	I don't understand.
22:27	danlei	clojurebot: lisp is great
22:27	clojurebot	Roger.
22:27	danlei	clojurebot: lisp?
22:27	clojurebot	lisp is great
22:28	danlei	clojurebot: botsnack
22:28	clojurebot	botsnack is delicious. (nom nom nom)
22:29	danlarkin	clojurebot: clojurebot is wacky!
22:29	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
22:29	danlarkin	clojurebot: clojurebot
22:29	clojurebot	clojurebot is wacky!
22:51	hiredman	ugh
22:54	quuxman	can clojurebot run clojure?
22:54	quuxman	> (+ 1 2)
22:57	hiredman	not at this point
22:57	hiredman	I am leary of allowing other people to run code on my computer
22:58	hiredman	in the future it may run some subset
23:04	Chouser	hiredman: wise. But java does have sandbox features that might be useful.
23:09	rzezeski	someone help a git n00b please...I want to checkout (clone?) swank-clojure...I tried "git clone http://github.com/jochu/swank-clojure" but that said something about update-server-info...
23:11	danlei	git clone git://github.com/jochu/swank-clojure.git
23:12	danlei	works for me
23:12	rzezeski	that seemed to do the trick, thx
23:16	danlei	is _ inside a lambda list something special, or is it "just" used by convention?
23:16	Chouser	convention
23:17	danlei	thanks
23:32	hiredman	clojurebot: where are you is <reply> http://gist.github.com/27733
23:32	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
23:33	hiredman	clojurebot: where are you?
23:33	clojurebot	http://gist.github.com/27733
23:36	spaceman_stu	thanks for pasting the code for the bot hiredman. Interesting to look over
23:39	hiredman	I think I got an automated dingo that will update that page from my personal bzr repo
23:39	Chouser	anyone have an idea for converting hex stored in a string to an int?
23:40	danlarkin	hiredman: what's the purpose of the <reply> part?
23:40	danlarkin	Chouser: java doesn't have anything built in to do that?
23:40	Chouser	beats me, that's why I'm asking.
23:41	hiredman	clojurebot: clojurebot?
23:41	clojurebot	clojurebot is wacky!
23:41	hiredman	without the reply
23:41	hiredman	with the <reply>
23:41	arbscht	(Integer/parseInt "A" 16)
23:41	hiredman	clojurebot: where are you?
23:41	clojurebot	http://gist.github.com/27733
23:42	Chouser	arbscht: fantastic, thanks
23:42	hiredman	<reply> lest you specify a response without it having to be in the format "A is B"
23:43	arbscht	like that?
23:43	danlarkin	ah ha, I see
23:56	arohner	is it possible to create a macro that emits a call to binding?
23:57	arohner	every time I try, the symbols are evaluated
23:57	arohner	and emitting (binding [(quote foo) (bar)]) doesn't work