#clojure – 2008-11-20

2008-11-20

00:01	Chouser	well, I think this is right, because I can compile, and then run from the Repl without the .clj files in the path (just the compiled .class files)
00:02	Chouser	when I try to use the -main fn in my compiled class straight from the command line, I get: java.lang.IllegalStateException: Var null/null is unbound
00:02	Chouser	But I think that must be a separate bug
00:04	Chouser	bah! yes, it's in fact a bug in my own source code.
00:05	Chouser	hm... or maybe not. I mean, i had a bug, but it doesn't seem to be causing that exception.
00:09	Chouser	ok, ClojureScript must not be calling Compiler/analyze correctly when running from -main
00:09	Chouser	Must be some var I'm supposed to bind.
00:17	mmcgrana	well i gtg, good luck on figuring that out, sorry i couldn't really help
00:18	Chouser	np, thanks for poking at it with me
00:18	mmcgrana	yep
00:20	yangsx	hi, can I tell slime to use the latest version after clojure.jar is updated?
00:22	_Jordan_	I don't suppose there's already a built-in "index-of" function I'm overlooking? Something like: http://gist.github.com/26947
00:27	Chouser	_Jordan_: I don't know of any.
00:28	_Jordan_	Thanks
00:29	Chouser	(count (take-while (complement #{'x}) '[z y x w]))
00:29	Chouser	but that doesn't give you nil on failure
00:30	Chouser	I guess I don't use indexes into seqs much. You're sure you need it?
00:35	_Jordan_	no, I probably don't. Hold on, let me figure out what your snippet does :)
00:36	hiredman	any progress on that pretty printer?
00:37	Chouser	nope, gave it up since steven_h appears to be working on it
01:09	larrytheliquid	when you import functions into a namespace (in order to not fully qualify them) with "(use some-namespace", i get a filenotfound error due to the classpath
01:09	larrytheliquid	does that mean you cannot "use" functions from dynamically created namespaces?
01:16	larrytheliquid	nm, refer does the trick
02:29	thearthur	what is the proper way to nest a fn inside another?
02:29	thearthur	(def bla4 (let [baz (fn [x y] (when (pos? y) (lazy-cons x (baz x (dec y)))))]))
02:30	thearthur	this gets me a null pointer exception in compilation (sometimes)
02:31	hoeck	thearthur: (fn bar [x y] ...)
02:31	hoeck	you can name the anonymous function, so that it references to itself
02:32	hoeck	(let [foo (fn this [] this)] (= foo (foo))) -> true
02:33	thearthur	are you saying the function has 2 names, one for recuring and another by which it is referenced?
02:35	hoeck	well, it has the name to where you bound it in the (let [ ..]) and the name you give it internally
02:36	hoeck	the function itself doesn't see the let-bound one
02:38	thearthur	is this a reserved word?
02:38	hoeck	no
02:39	hoeck	but "this" is used in the proxy-macro
02:40	thearthur	i c
02:40	thearthur	thanks so very much
02:40	hoeck	np
03:43	_deepfire	slyrus_, did anybody mention shadowing-import-from?
05:14	blarf	i want a function : (defn prolog []
05:14	blarf	(ref state {:rules {} :facts {}})
05:14	blarf	but it returns the ref when i eval it
05:15	blarf	i want it do that obv when i call (prolog) only
05:15	blarf	i could ofc make a pure fucntiont hat doesnt use refs at all
05:15	blarf	but i ind of want to
05:24	hoeck	blarf: there is a paren missing ath the end of (ref .. )
05:27	blarf	lol thanks
05:32	hoeck	thanks going to xemacs expression-highlighting :)
05:33	blarf	ah, i use normal emacs
05:35	hoeck	actually the same as emacs, just with an "x" on the front
05:58	blarf	hmm, im doing prolog and picking up my old OO-for-clojure-mini-project. im thinking, should i make classes immutable or mutable? im using refs so they are transaction-secure but perhaps i should only have function for creating a class with desired functionality and then let it be immutable?
05:59	blarf	hmm, if soemone even understand what im saying there :)
06:00	tWip	do you mean should it be possible to "add" methods/properties to classes after definition?
06:01	blarf	so each update to an instance of a clas returns a new instance rather than using refs and manipluating them
06:01	Chousuke	blarf: return new instances
06:03	blarf	twip: well that is possible by default i guess, its dynamic.
06:03	blarf	Chou: ok ill experiment with both and seee
06:04	Chousuke	but OO shouldn't be that difficult in clojure. You'll need some metadata-based system for tagging types and then you can use maps to represent your instances and the multimethod system for methods.
06:05	tWip	indeed, I think clojure already has what is needed for OO
06:05	Chousuke	actually you don't even need a system for tagging types, but I'm assuming you want some kind of rigid hierarchical OO model?
06:06	Chousuke	tWip: clojure can do OO better than java if you ask me.
06:06	tWip	for some value of OO
06:07	Chousuke	Well, you always have access to the java system
06:07	tWip	there are so many aspects to it and different groups use different definitions
06:07	Chousuke	and then multimethods on top of that.
06:07	Chousuke	gen-class is evil though.
06:07	tWip	never used it
06:07	Chousuke	Me neither. I tried, but it's evil :(
06:09	hoeck	Chousuke: you mean gen-class for making classes that are only accessed by clojure code?
06:10	Chousuke	no. that wouldn't make sense :/
06:10	Chousuke	gen-class is java interop.
06:13	blarf	i have a half-functioning kind of not so beautiful OO-system already but my main problem was how to define emthods and eval them.
06:13	Chousuke	use the multimethod system? :/
06:15	tWip	blarf: are you using maps for instances?
06:15	blarf	i want to be able to do mor epython-like OO. i want and kind of have: (def-class rectangle) (def-attr :width 10) (def-attr :length 20) (def-method area :width :length)
06:15	Chousuke	struct-maps and multimethods give you all that
06:16	tWip	how would one implement encapsulation/information hiding when using maps?
06:17	tWip	I'm not saying that is necessary, just that it is a feature commonly in OO systems
06:17	Chousuke	tWip: you wouldn't, really.
06:17	Chousuke	just like in python they don't.
06:18	Chousuke	it's just declared as off-limits and you're supposed to obey that. :P
06:18	blarf	tWip: in Python you dont really have that, i ifnd it neat
06:18	tWip	I suppose it's more important in the state gathering mess of Java-style OO :P
06:19	Chousuke	languages that implement data encapsulation and hiding can only prevent accidents.
06:19	Chousuke	they can't prevent actual access.
06:19	Chousuke	as long as the data is there, there exists a way to get to it :P
06:25	hoeck	twip: regarding encapsulation, you could do this with closures, by closing over a hashmap and allowing only access to specific keys for example
06:26	tWip	you'd have to ref that, because you couldn't modify the closed over map
06:27	tWip	but yes, that's a possible way to do it
06:28	Chousuke	hmm, right.
06:29	Chousuke	define a function lets a bunch of refs and returns a bunch of accessor functions :P
06:29	Chousuke	instant instances
06:30	Chousuke	perhaps not optimal though.
06:30	Chousuke	also, +that
06:31	Chousuke	would be rather ugly and nonidiomatic though. :/
06:35	blarf	what is JAVA under the hood? a symbol-table-hack? written in C++?
07:15	blackdog	(find-doc) returns documentation on private functions
07:18	blackdog	I'm using slurp at the moment to load a file but how do i load a file relative to classpath
07:18	blackdog	not code any old file
07:21	blackdog	getResourceasStream then?
07:22	blackdog	maybe it would be good to have a function in core like loadResourceScript but for anything?
07:33	Chousuke	phew. wrote a bunch of stuff about macros to the groups.
07:33	Chousuke	Explaining things to others really helps me in understanding them myself :)
07:35	Chousuke	hm, maybe I should put that in the wiki :/
08:04	hoeck	what's the preferred way of implementing a java interface now, plain old proxy or :gen-class?
08:05	rhickey	hoeck: :gen-class is about creating a named class for the Java world
08:06	rhickey	so, for handlers etc stick with proxy
08:09	hoeck	aha, btw, am i allowed to use the proxy facilities directly?
08:09	hoeck	i expanded the proxy macro once and built a function which takes a map of fn-name fn pairs and creates the proxy
08:10	hoeck	creates the proxy directly, i mean
08:10	rhickey	hoeck: other than proxy itself, I wouldn't rely on the support fns just yet, only because I'm looking at adding AOT support for proxy
08:11	rhickey	it might end up the same or very similar
08:12	rhickey	2 objectives are to precompile the proxy classes themselves, and get rid of reflective construction
08:16	hoeck	I'm just playing around with the iris reasoner, and don't want to rewrite all the interface-gluecode once proxy-AOT works
08:16	hoeck	so I rather ask :)
08:17	rhickey	hoeck: can you post your function, so I can see how you are using the underlying proxy API? It might help inform my decisions
08:17	rhickey	paste
08:19	hoeck	rhickey: http://paste.lisp.org/display/70751
08:20	rhickey	hoeck: thanks
08:22	hoeck	i once discovered that there is just a hashmap and found that more convenient/functional/clojure-like than the proxy macro whith the aliased "this"
08:23	hoeck	and it makes it possible to pass something like identity function to proxy
08:23	rhickey	hoeck: yes, it's just sugar. I'll probably try to get proxy macro off of calling construct-proxy (that's reflective) but can leave it in for usages like yours
08:24	rhickey	the fundamental hash-map approach will stay the same
08:26	hoeck	rhickey: fine, thanks
08:39	blackdog	is there a clojure way of loading any resource from the classpath?
08:45	duck1123	any clojure resource?
08:45	duck1123	(doc load)
08:45	blackdog	any resource, not just a script
08:45	blarf	is this now allowed: (for [[x y] (zip a b)]
08:46	duck1123	(doc slurp)
08:46	blackdog	that's from the file system
08:46	blackdog	not from the classpath
08:46	blackdog	i can get baseLoader() from RT so i guess i can do it using that
08:46	duck1123	hmm...
08:49	duck1123	I'm getting a strange error today: No matching method found: .start for class java.lang.Thread
08:50	rhickey	duck1123: paset?
08:50	rhickey	paste?
08:50	duck1123	I wish I knew where it was being called from
08:50	duck1123	that's just when I start up clojure/compojure
08:50	duck1123	I'm thinking it might be from the compojure side
09:00	rhickey	I've updated http://clojure.org/java_interop to emphasize the member access sugar, is it clear?
09:01	blackdog	should the doto example have .puts?
09:01	rhickey	blackdog: just fixed :)
09:01	blackdog	k
09:02	duck1123	rhickey: would it make sense to put (Classname-symbol. args) above the (new Classname-symbol args) line to make that one clear?
09:06	rhickey	duck1123: done
09:07	duck1123	thanks
09:08	rhickey	I mean especially the new bit at the top - if you were just coming to Clojure and knew Java, would you be feel confident about how to call Java after the first section, without reading about the dot operator?
09:08	duck1123	I think it looks pretty clear
09:14	duck1123	rhickey: you might want to think about changing the "Dynamic Compilation" section of the dynamic page now that we have AOT
09:15	rhickey	yeah, there's a lot to do in the docs, not going there now
09:17	vdrab	Hi #clojure. could some kind soul tell me whether this screencast is still up to date, or whether I'm just doing something wrong? http://blip.tv/file/1045010/
09:18	vdrab	I defined the ~/bin/clj script to load the clojure repl, and it seems to work fine. I just can't seem to associate the inferior-lisp-program with it...
09:19	vdrab	in Aquamacs, that is
09:21	wlr	rhickey: a non-trivial number of newbies seem to start with releases. you might consider 1 more release before 1.0 to shake out functionality and official docs. just a thought.
09:22	rhickey	wlr: I might, yes, a release candidate release
09:22	wlr	yep
09:22	duck1123	will java follow symlinks when looking for jars?
09:25	duck1123	I found my problem wrt .start and Thread
09:25	Chouser_away	duck1123: yes, symlinks are ok
09:25	duck1123	I was using the latest version of swank, but a older version of clojure
09:26	duck1123	Chouser: for some reason it didn't work. I just replaced it with the actual file
09:27	Chouser	rhickey: I got clojurescript working from a self-contained pre-compiled .jar. (yay!) But I had to patch Compiler.java so I could bind LOADER
09:27	Chouser	duck1123: well, I tested a symlink just now and it worked, so... shrug
09:28	rhickey	Chouser: bind loader where?
09:28	blarf	i have a big O-analysis question, 2* O(n) vs O(n) + O(1), is there any practical difference? is it worth optimizing something like that ever?
09:29	duck1123	Chouser: did you link to a folder, or a jar?
09:29	Chousuke	blarf: depends
09:29	Chouser	If I used Compiler/analyze, I would get an error because of LOADER being unbound (normally it's bound inside eval)
09:30	Chousuke	blarf: how big is the constant in the first O(n) and the latter O(n)? :P
09:30	Chouser	So I exposed LOADER as clojure.core/loader and used (binding ...) around my call to Compiler/analyze
09:30	Chouser	this also allows me to call analyze from other threads now, which is handy.
09:30	rhickey	2*O(n) == O(n), O(n) + O(1) == O(n), that's not to say one won't be faster than the other
09:33	rhickey	Chouser: I'm confused, when does analyze care about LOADER?
09:33	philscotted	Once again, extremely impressive language here, and I'm currently using it for trying out a few ideas in my work (as opposed to getting frustrated with Ocaml). One question: similar to the arithmetic operators, I expected union and intersection to act like the identity on sets when given one argument. Is there a reason why this is a bad idea?
09:34	rhickey	philscotted: not a bad idea at all
09:37	philscotted	Great. In that case, we could also have union accepting zero arguments and returning the empty set.
09:39	rhickey	philscotted: yes, there's a lot of todo on the set stuff, esp re: uniform treatment and return of empty sets
09:43	lisppaste8	Chouser pasted "unbound LOADER exception" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70755
09:46	rhickey	Chouser: is compile-files not set?
09:46	Chouser	no, I wouldn't think so, since this is at runtime.
09:48	Chouser	ah, but if I bind that and compile-path myself, it seems to work.
09:48	Chouser	but it also creates a bunch of .class files
09:49	blarf	is it possible to ahve a macro X that does infix-macroing?
09:50	Chousuke	infix?
09:50	blarf	like: (action X stuff) ->
09:50	Chousuke	no.
09:50	Chouser	blarf: you could write a macro X that could be called like (X 5 + (10 / 2))
09:50	blarf	(+ 3 2) <- prefix
09:50	blarf	(3 + 2) <- infix
09:50	rhickey	Chouser: the problem may be the getCompiledClass call on line 3139, would like to do without that
09:50	blarf	yes i dont want infix for that though
09:51	blarf	it is mostly a very lazy ,acro
09:51	blarf	a macro i need because im sooo lazy
09:51	Chouser	rhickey: yeah, I spent 5 minutes trying to figure out exactly what compiled class it was getting and why before giving up. :-)
09:51	Chousuke	blarf: lisp is always in prefix form
09:51	blarf	(defmacro def-to-self [pre post]
09:52	Chousuke	blarf: infix is either a reader macro that transforms into a prefix form, or some prefix macro that takes an infix form.
09:52	blarf	(def (first pre) (rest pre) post))
09:52	Chouser	rhickey: you probably know this already, but I was getting the same error pre-AOT when trying to run analyze from an agent
09:55	Chouser	Chousuke: you're Jarkko on the google group?
09:55	Chousuke	yeah
09:56	Chouser	Chousuke: nice treatment of syntax-quote
09:57	Chousuke	heh.
09:57	Chousuke	I wrote it to explain it to myself as well.
09:58	Chouser	Chousuke: :-) I understand.
09:58	rhickey	Chouser: try 1117
10:00	leafw	is there any up-do-date guide on AOT compilation, how to set it up, how to expose methods for other java .jars to see them, etc?
10:01	Chouser	leafw: there's a chat log and a pasted example. If you haven't seen them, I can dig them up for you.
10:01	mehrheit	is each different keyword internally stored as
10:02	leafw	Chouser: would appreciate a lot
10:02	mehrheit	a single instance of Keyword?
10:03	rhickey	user=> (identical? (keyword "fred") (keyword "fred"))
10:03	rhickey	true
10:03	rhickey	user=> (identical? (symbol "fred") (symbol "fred"))
10:03	rhickey	false
10:04	Chouser	leafw: AOT/gen-class syntax: http://paste.lisp.org/display/70665
10:04	mehrheit	rhickey: ok, thank you
10:06	leafw	thanks Chouser
10:06	leafw	wow, a namespace extends a class? That is bizarre
10:07	rhickey	a namespace is a class
10:07	Chouser	leafw: the "announcement" starts here: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-11-18.html#14:19
10:07	rhickey	when compiled
10:07	Chouser	I'm having trouble getting a clean build of 1117
10:08	Chouser	keep getting stack traces pointing to a commented-out line.
10:08	cooldude127	rhickey: that would be nice, i still don't get it after the 1110 change
10:08	leafw	rhickey: I'd say a class is a namespace, but the other wa around.
10:09	rhickey	Chouser: you've cleaned?
10:10	Chouser	ant clean, rm -rf classes/*, rm clojure.jar, in several different orders several times. :-P
10:10	leafw	1116 compiles fine.
10:11	Chouser	oh, 1117 compiles, but my analyze call still throws an exception, and the exception names a comment line.
10:11	Chouser	clearly I'm being dumb, but how exactly is the question...
10:12	leafw	rhickey: just an extended version of that paste with explanations as comments would go a long way. For example, is -main a convention? Somehow it's not "exposed" anywhere
10:12	rhickey	Chouser: oh, I thought you meant 1117 didn't build
10:12	leafw	nad :init init is calling -init, with a minus sign?
10:13	leafw	are minus signs not part of the name of a function when present in the first character of the name?
10:13	Chouser	ah, here we go. getCompiledClass elsewhere...
10:14	rhickey	leafw: (doc ns) (doc gen-class) does have the details
10:14	lisppaste8	Chouser annotated #70755 with "getCompiledClass during analyze, rev 1117" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70755#1
10:16	Chouser	rhickey: I could give you a .jar that runs my test case, if you want.
10:18	rhickey	Chouser: no, I see from the trace you have a function that calls def with a fn
10:21	rhickey	Chouser: you should stick with your binding then
10:21	Chouser	ok -- exposing LOADER as loader isn't too terrible?
10:23	rhickey	Chouser: how about private-compiler-loader
10:23	Chouser	sure
10:23	Chouser	you want a patch, or should I roll it into my general clojurescript patch?
10:25	rhickey	Chouser: I'll take a patch if it makes it easier for you
10:28	Chouser	I think it's necessary for me, even more so than core.clj/RT.java changes are. But I'm maintaining a branch of clojure to support clojurescript anyway, so I don't need to bother you with this particular one now.
10:29	Chouser	Whenever you choose to take all the pending cljs changes will be fine.
10:29	MarkVolkmann	I saw this syntax on the mailing list. (.setTitle frame# ~title) What do the # and ~ mean in this context?
10:30	Chouser	MarkVolkmann: they both only work inside a ` block.
10:30	MarkVolkmann	Okay. If there are inside a ` block, what do they mean?
10:31	Chousuke	MarkVolkmann: your paste was missing the ` character
10:31	Chouser	inside ` most words are unevaluated, passed stright through, so .setTitle comes out with just some namespace resolution: user\.setTitle
10:32	Chouser	a trailing # means a gensym -- a new guaranteed-unique name: frame__49
10:32	Chouser	a leading ~ means the following expression will be evaluated, so whatever title is bound to will be inserted there.
10:32	Chousuke	MarkVolkmann: did you see my writeup? it goes through a few examples.
10:33	MarkVolkmann	No. What's the URL?
10:33	Chousuke	though I didn't explain ~ very well :/
10:33	Chouser	user=> (let [title '(str "I'm a" "title")] `(.setTitle frame# ~title))
10:33	Chouser	(user/.setTitle frame__58 (str "I'm a" "title"))
10:34	Chousuke	MarkVolkmann: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/27912d9dcaec2f24 the fifth post (the long one :P)
10:34	MarkVolkmann	Thanks!
10:40	duck1123	Chouser: I really like your show fn
10:41	Chouser	duck1123: thanks. the numbered-method thing seems kinda cheesy, but I haven't thought of a better way
10:41	Chouser	also the sort order could use a bit more work.
11:13	blarf	is there a way to read symbols? i want do differ ?x from x.
11:15	Chouser	(pr ~foo) ==> java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No method for dispatch value: class clojure.lang.LispReader$Unquote
11:15	Chouser	blarf: I don't know what you mean by ?x
11:15	philscotted	Can I just implement variadic union in the obvious way, or is it more subtle than this?
11:16	Chouser	philscotted: might depend on what you think is obvious, but I don't think set.clj is particularly tricky -- just gets the job done.
11:17	rhickey	philscotted: there's a patch for this floating around on the group I think
11:17	philscotted	Well, I just map an empty argument list to #{}, a singleton arg-list to the single arg, keep the existing definition with two args, and for more I have written ([xset yset & more] (reduce union (union xset yset) more))
11:18	Chouser	sounds pretty sensible.
11:19	Chousuke	blarf: you can convert to string and use java stream readers
11:25	blarf	Chou: aj
11:25	blarf	ah
11:27	blarf	how do i def a var? (def a 10), a isnt a var.
11:28	rhickey	blarf: a is a var, but saying a means get the value of the var a, to get the var itself, say (var a)
11:28	tomhickey	trying to understand ::keywords, why does the later resolve to clojure ns and not user? user=> ::rect
11:28	tomhickey	:user/rect
11:28	tomhickey	user=> ::test
11:28	tomhickey	:clojure/test
11:29	tomhickey	oops, sorry for multi-liner
11:30	rhickey	tomhickey: ::test looks broken, will look into that
11:32	blarf	i cant do var and get info
11:32	blarf	user=> str
11:32	blarf	clojure.str__112@af914c
11:32	blarf	(doc str)
11:32	blarf	but not (doc var)
11:33	Chousuke	var is a special form. it's documented on the web page.
11:34	blarf	aha
11:35	rhickey	blarf: what version are you using?
11:35	rhickey	user=> (doc var)
11:35	rhickey	-------------------------
11:35	rhickey	var
11:35	rhickey	Special Form
11:35	rhickey	Please see http://clojure.org/special_forms#var
11:35	Chouser	is Unquote not expected to work with pr?
11:36	rhickey	Chouser: what do you mean?
11:36	Chouser	(pr ~foo) throws an exception
11:37	rhickey	Chouser: you can't unquote outside of syntax-quote
11:39	blarf	(ensure ref)
11:39	blarf	Must be called in a transaction
11:39	blarf	what does must mean there? do i have to follow a dosync-alter with ensure?
11:39	blarf	rhickey 20080916
11:40	Chousuke	blarf: use a newer version :)
11:41	Chousuke	blarf: it means that ensure can only be called in a transaction
11:41	Chousuke	the wording is a bit ambiguous I guess.
11:51	Chouser	heh, like core.clj line 3111
11:52	Chouser	'~'clojure.core outside of `
11:55	rhickey	aargh
11:55	rhickey	should just be '
11:58	blarf	can i do (del a) or soemthing? delte a variab�e
11:59	Chouser	yep, with that change I can compile core.clj to js again. :-)
11:59	Chouser	blarf: you want to remove 'a' from a particular namespace, or do something to the object stored in 'a'?
12:00	rhickey	Chouser: rev 1119 has the fix
12:01	rhickey	also fix for Wodin
12:04	Chouser	thanks!
12:13	dfg59	can anyone help me with a problem i'm having using JLine with the clojure repl on os x?
12:13	danlarkin	we can try
12:16	dfg59	danlarkin: i'm using this script http://pastie.org/319767
12:16	dfg59	it works fine without the jline extras
12:16	dfg59	but errors with them
12:17	dfg59	this is the error: http://pastie.org/319769
12:23	danlarkin	dfg59: tricky
12:32	dfg59	danlarkin: tricky?
12:32	dfg59	any ideas why it's erroring?
12:35	danlarkin	nope :-/
12:35	danlarkin	I use rlwrap myself though
12:36	Chouser	me too
12:36	Chouser	not to say it doesn't occasionally go wonkey itself...
12:37	duck1123	does anyone here know how to set paredit-mode when Slime begins?
12:37	Chousuke	slime probably has hooks.
12:38	dfg59	danlarkin: k, i'll check out rlwrap, hoping there's a port
12:39	danlarkin	fink has it, if you use that
12:39	danlarkin	ports probably does too
12:54	askentasken	anyone good with emacs-modes? im tryong to edit clojure.el to add more syntax-hightlighitn. there are a lot of key-words already defined so i can just add to aht list to make them purple. but lets say i want osme other colors as well, i dont see how to create that. for example id want yellow for the stuff in my user.clj-file. anyone know how to fix that?
13:02	duck1123	askentasken: I tried looking into that the other day, I don't think it's going to be that easy
13:25	pissed-at-glocal	a
13:26	pissed-at-glocal	anyone using magit on windows?
13:35	dfg59	anyone out there using clojure with vim?
13:35	Chouser	me
13:35	dfg59	Chouser: is syntax highlighting working for you?
13:36	dfg59	everything works for me except syntax highlighting. completion/paren matching, etc
13:36	Chouser	I had to grab a syntax file, but yes.
13:36	dfg59	i have the syntax file as well
13:36	dfg59	and the filetype is being recognized
13:37	dfg59	i'm using the extension .clj on my files, is this correct?
13:37	Chouser	that's what I use
13:38	dfg59	hrm, k
13:38	rzezeski	asking the obvious, do you have "syntax on" in your .vimrc
13:38	Chouser	but even without that, I can just type :setfiletype clojure and it lights up
13:39	dfg59	Chouser, let me try that
13:39	dfg59	rzezeski, yep
13:39	dfg59	parans are highlighted for me, but not keywords
13:39	dfg59	or anything else, for that matter
13:40	rzezeski	reaching in the dark...did you try setting another colortheme
13:41	dfg59	rzezeki, let me try
13:41	dfg59	nothing there. all i get highlighting for is () and []
13:41	sjbach	dfg59, what version of vim? Have you tried sourcing the syntax file explicitly and reloading a .clj?
13:41	rzezeski	colorscheme I should say ":colorscheme ..."
13:42	dfg59	sjbach: 7.2
13:42	dfg59	sjbach: i'll try sourcing it explicitly
13:42	dfg59	still nothing
13:43	rzezeski	as a sanity check, does pretty printing work for other types of files like .java or .c?
13:43	dfg59	everything looks good in my ruby files
13:47	dfg59	i'm going to try a fresh install
13:47	sjbach	dfg59, you may want to try paring down your .vim and .vimrc to something minimal to see if that helps
13:47	dfg59	i've removed everything
13:47	rhickey	tomhickey: ::test fixed
13:48	Chouser	dfg59: if you do :syntax do you see a bunch of clojure things, like a big clojureFunc section?
13:50	nsinghal	How can we get the current classpaths in clojure?
13:50	Chousuke	(System/getProperty "java.class.path")
13:51	dfg59	Chouser: one sec, reinstalling plugin
13:51	dfg59	Chouser: what's the best way to install the vim plugin, to overly my existing dir structure
13:51	nsinghal	Thank you Chousuke
13:52	tomhickey	rhickey: thanks!
13:53	rzezeski	dfg59, you should be able to just do a "cp -r"
13:53	dfg59	rzezeski
13:53	dfg59	rzezeski including bin?
13:54	rzezeski	dfg59, something like this: "cp -r ~/Downloads/vimclojure-1.2.1/ftplugin ~/.vimrc"
13:54	rzezeski	whoops
13:54	rzezeski	~/.vim
13:55	dfg59	right, that's what i did, but not just ftplugin, everything else as well
13:55	dfg59	including syntax
13:55	dfg59	etc
13:56	dfg59	Chouse: btw, i see a bunch of things when i type :syntax
13:56	rzezeski	whoops, ok I meant "cp -r ~/vim-clojure/* ~/.vim"
13:57	dfg59	rzezeski: yep, that's what I did...but do I need the bin directory there? i'm assuming that's just a script to recreate the completions file
13:57	rzezeski	yea I don't think you need it there, I have it there and it's not hurting anything
13:58	dfg59	so i guess my question is, should i see defn as syntax highlighted?
13:58	dfg59	if so, i'm still not seeing it, which is strange
13:59	rzezeski	defn is not highlighted for me either
13:59	dfg59	ah... :) maybe i do have it working then
13:59	dfg59	what is an example of something i should see highlighted
14:00	abrooks	defn :keyword
14:01	dfg59	abrooks: ok, defn is not highlighted but :keyword is. hope this is what is expected.
14:01	Chouser	http://chouser.n01se.net/misc/vimclojure.png
14:02	dfg59	Chouser: yeah, i'm not seeing that
14:02	dfg59	rm
14:02	dfg59	hrm
14:02	rzezeski	dfg59, you and I both
14:03	Chouser	heh, great, I'm making it worse.
14:03	dfg59	heh, no, this is good to know that other's aren't seeing
14:03	dfg59	Chouser: what's your OS?
14:03	Chouser	ubuntu
14:04	dfg59	rzezeski: are you on osx?
14:04	rzezeski	yep
14:04	rzezeski	I think I'm missing something from my .vimrc, that's my guess
14:04	dfg59	ah, as am i
14:05	dfg59	i mean, should need anything other than filetype on and syntax on
14:05	dfg59	both of which i ahve
14:05	dfg59	*have
14:09	dfg59	Chouser: did you use the plugin from http://kotka.de/projects/clojure/vimclojure.html
14:09	abrooks	dfg59: That's the plugin that I use. It works fine.
14:10	rzezeski	I think it has something to do with setting clj_highlight_builtins
14:11	abrooks	rzezeski's probably right. I have "let g:clj_highlight_builtins=1"
14:11	abrooks	dfg59: --^
14:12	rzezeski	abrooks, yep that did it for me
14:12	rzezeski	what is the difference between set and let in vim?
14:13	rzezeski	I kept trying to set it
14:13	rzezeski	On the VimClojure site is says "You may set clj_highlight_builtins in ..."
14:13	abrooks	rzezeski: "let" sets internal variables. See "help let" vs. "help set"
14:16	dfg59	awesome
14:16	rzezeski	also, taking a look at the docs, it seems you can set varying levels of parenthesis to different colors via "g:clj_paren_rainbow"...pretty cool
14:16	dfg59	sweet :)
14:16	dfg59	thanks guys
14:16	rzezeski	the things you learn when you actually take the time to read
14:16	dfg59	ugh, no kidding
14:26	danlarkin	looking at my code in jrat tells me nothing... as far as I can tell :-/
14:28	danlarkin	clojure.lang.Var.get() and clojure.lang.LispReader.read(..) take up 24% and 22% of the "method time %"
14:35	dfg59	interestingly enough, if i try to do the let command as an autocmd for the filetype, it doesnt work
14:36	Chouser	you can just set it all the time, can't you?
14:36	dfg59	Chouser: sure, and it works, was just trying to make it a bit smarter
14:38	rzezeski	the "g:" prefix stands for global, so I don't know if it even makes sense to do it per filetype
14:38	dfg59	rzezeski: good point. i have some similar settings for ruby, so i was giving it a shot.
14:56	gnuvince	rhickey: would you mind if I translated the Clojure rationale to French and posted it on my blog for the French-speaking developers interested in Clojure? I would of course mention that you are the original author and include a link to the original.
14:56	rhickey	gnuvince: sure
14:57	gnuvince	rhickey: thank you.
15:10	askentask	(contains? [1 '?x] '?x) -> false, why?
15:11	Chousuke	askentask: (doc contains?)
15:11	Chouser	askentask: contains? works on keys not vals
15:11	Chouser	the keys of your vector are 0 and 1
15:30	rhickey	JVM Summit talk: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/hickey-clojure;jsessionid=2826B81451C4EBFB6F676A26DC937E34
15:30	hiredman	ooo
15:35	rhickey	Clojure in 1/2 hour
15:38	AWizzArd	ah nice, a new vid :-)
15:38	rhickey	It's kind of like the trailer for Clojure
15:40	danlei	how would i do http://rpdillon.googlepages.com/creatingexecutablejarswithclojure with the new syntax? i tried: ns org.etherplex.example.jarexample
15:40	danlei	(:gen-class
15:40	danlei	:main true))
15:40	danlei
15:40	danlei	(defn- -main [& args]
15:40	danlei	(println "hello"))
15:40	danlei
15:40	Chouser	danlei: no need for :gen-class or :main if all you want is a main fn.
15:40	danlei	hm
15:40	Chouser	just (defn -main ...) is sufficient.
15:41	danlei	aah
15:41	danlei	thank you
15:41	Chouser	you're welcome.
15:42	AWizzArd	i must think about using this vid for a presentation in my company
15:42	kib2	Hi! Nothing to do with Clojure, but that may interest some of you. You can get a new css book for free here (only during 12 days) : http://twitaway.aws.sitepoint.com/
15:43	rzezeski	Oh I just heard the mock object joke, good one
15:46	dfg59	rzezeski: what mock object joke?
15:48	rzezeski	in the video rhickey just linked
15:48	dfg59	ah
15:48	rzezeski	they are "mocking you"
15:49	dfg59	heh
16:35	djpowell	can anyone explain :gen-class - i haven't seen any docs for it yet
16:37	Chouser	AOT/gen-class syntax example: http://paste.lisp.org/display/70665
16:37	Chouser	the "announcement" starts here: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-11-18.html#14:19
16:40	danlei	i'm having trouble in getting an "executeable" jar-file. if i do (ns org.etherplex.example.JarExample)
16:40	danlei	(defn -main [& args]
16:40	danlei	(println "hello"))
16:40	danlei
16:40	danlei
16:41	danlei	then gen-class will produce classes/JarExample.class and classes/JarExample$_main__2623.class
16:42	danlei	but if i try to run the jar, it gives me a class not found exception: org.etherplex.example.JarExample__init
16:44	danlei	maybe i'll just have to learn java :)
16:46	danlei	... or revert to r1109, with gen-and-save-class, i had no problems
16:47	Chouser	you don't run anything called 'gen-class' do you?
16:47	danlei	i do
16:47	Chouser	oh, don't do that.
16:48	danlei	what should i use instead?
16:48	Chouser	try (compile 'org.etherplex.example.JarExample)
16:49	danlei	Chouser: thanks. now it doesn't find the class
16:49	Chouser	what doesn't find what class?
16:49	danlei	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: org.etherplex.example.JarExample$_main__2620 (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
16:49	danlei
16:50	danlei	if i do (compile 'org. ...
16:50	Chouser	make sure you have "./classes" in your classpath
16:51	Chouser	or whatever you have compile-path set to
16:52	danlei	chouser ah, thanks
16:54	askentask	is ~ ina macro the same as , in cl?
16:54	danlei	Chouser: ah, it finally works. all that java stuff still confuses me to death. thank you very much.
16:55	Chouser	askentask: yes it's about the same (maybe exactly). And it only has to be in a ` not necessarily a macro.
16:55	Chouser	danlei: great! I just worked through this myself last night.
16:56	danlei	Chouser: :)
17:11	cooldude127	hey guys!
17:17	lisppaste8	asken pasted "while-macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70789
17:18	askentask	http://paste.lisp.org/display/70789
17:18	askentask	can someone point me to what missing in my while-macro? im trying to learn macros and have successfully created soem simple ones but is hard to learn themmincrementally.
17:19	Chouser	try macroexpand on that, and look carefully at the results
17:23	MarkVolkmann	What is the purpose of the ~ character in Clojure? Maybe if I can find out what its function is called then I can google some documentation on it.
17:23	danlei	it unquotes inside a quasiquotation, like ',' in cl
17:24	AWizzArd	MarkVolkmann: read this chapter: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-building-a-unit-test-framework.html
17:24	AWizzArd	no, this one I mean: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-defining-your-own.html
17:25	AWizzArd	about in the middle of that page you find "Generating the Expansion"
17:25	Chouser	`(foo map (+ 1 2) ~(+ 1 2))
17:25	AWizzArd	in Common Lisp they usey a comma instead of ~
17:25	Chouser	look at how the two different + expressions are handled
17:25	cooldude127	hey has anybody been implementing On Lisp in clojure? specifically the choose macro and all the non-determinism stuff?
17:25	Chouser	cooldude127: I believe someone started, not sure how far they got.
17:26	cooldude127	man, if i have the time i might try it. see if i can. i love that macro
17:27	Chouser	cooldude127: starts here: http://blog.fogus.me/2008/09/26/on-lisp-clojure-chapter-2/
17:28	cooldude127	cool, i'll look. he probably didn't, it's late in the book
17:28	Chouser	looks like he's up through chapter 5
17:28	cooldude127	yeah the stuff i want is in the late teens or early twenties
17:29	cooldude127	i think
17:29	Chouser	you could start at the end of the book and work backwards until it gets boring or you meet up with Fogus, whichever comes first.
17:29	cooldude127	that might be a good choice if some of them didn't use stuff from before
17:29	Chouser	ah, good point
17:29	cooldude127	i'm almost positive that a good portion actually use macros from earlier chapters
17:29	cooldude127	cool progression actually
17:30	cooldude127	but annoying for this purpose lol
17:30	cooldude127	i'll have to do the less fun way (the CL way as opposed to the scheme way) due to clojure not having continuations
17:31	askentask	Chouser: ok so i got it to print results endlessly when true and once when false if given (while (z 5 10)
17:32	askentask	(while (> x 0) (dec x) (pr x))) or (while (< x 0) (dec x) (pr x)))
17:33	Chouser	but (dec x) doesn't modify x, it just returns a new value
17:33	Chouser	this 'while' macro is inherently imperative
17:33	askentask	weeee!
17:33	Chouser	:-)
17:33	cooldude127	while is a tough sell in clojure
17:34	askentask	yes i used (def x (dec x)) and it worked
17:34	cooldude127	EWWWW
17:34	Chouser	ew
17:34	cooldude127	lol
17:34	cooldude127	it feels so dirty
17:34	askentask	is it possible to do without using def or or refs?
17:34	Chouser	askentask: but you got your macro working, so congrats on that.
17:35	danlei	won't work with a non-special var (one bound in let)
17:35	cooldude127	askentask: this is what we usually do with recursion i believe
17:35	cooldude127	loop and recur
17:35	cooldude127	just don't use mutation
17:36	Chouser	you might be able to do something a bit like C's for loop without being quite so dirty
17:36	Chouser	I still doubt its usefulness, but you could try it.
17:36	MarkVolkmann	Let me make sure I've got this right. ~ is used inside quoted lists to force evaluation of a sublist. Right?
17:36	cooldude127	but really it needs a change in mindset
17:36	Chouser	MarkVolkmann: back-quoted lists, yes.
17:36	cooldude127	MarkVolkmann: yeah i guess so
17:37	cooldude127	it substitutes the value of the expression in, instead of just putting it in literally
17:37	Chouser	askentask: (c-for [i 0 (< i 10) (inc i)] (prn i))
17:37	cooldude127	yeah that could be done rather functionally i think
17:37	askentask	cooldude127: i know about loop-recur and i dont need while really. im just asking is it possibkle to use my macro without the ugly (def x (dec x)) ?
17:38	MarkVolkmann	I don't comprehend the difference between substituting the value and putting it in literally.
17:38	cooldude127	MarkVolkmann: let's try some examples
17:38	cooldude127	hold on
17:38	danlei	MarkVolkmann: `((+ 1 2) ~(+ 1 2))
17:38	cooldude127	yeah that
17:38	cooldude127	danlei: i wanted the glory!
17:38	cooldude127	lol
17:39	danlei	cooldude127: sorry
17:39	Chouser	askentask: no, by having your macro recur with no changed locals means the only way to break out of the loop is to test for some side-effect.
17:39	cooldude127	user> `((+ 1 2) ~(+ 1 2))
17:39	cooldude127	((clojure.core/+ 1 2) 3)
17:39	MarkVolkmann	Right. I see that it makes a list containing the unevaluated (+ 1 2) and the evaluated (+ 1 2) or 3.
17:39	cooldude127	(literal substituted)
17:39	danlei	MarkVolkmann: exactly
17:40	MarkVolkmann	But what's the distinction between "substitute" and "putting in literally"
17:40	cooldude127	MarkVolkmann: my terminology might not be too clear
17:40	Chouser	askentask: which implies that the body of the while loop have some kind of side-effect, which in clojure means: set or re-def a Var, update a Ref, send to an Agent, or change some mutable state in a Java object.
17:40	cooldude127	by literally i mean it's put in as you see it
17:40	MarkVolkmann	Oh, okay. Thanks!
17:40	cooldude127	no prob
17:40	danlei	MarkVolkmann: anything inside a backquote is just data, only things that are unquoted (~) are evaluated
17:41	MarkVolkmann	What's the difference between a backquoted list and quoted list?
17:41	danlei	MarkVolkmann: you can't unquote inside a quoted list
17:41	MarkVolkmann	Ah!
17:41	cooldude127	that's not the only difference
17:41	cooldude127	user> '(+ 1 2)
17:41	cooldude127	(+ 1 2)
17:41	cooldude127	user> `(+ 1 2)
17:41	cooldude127	(clojure.core/+ 1 2)
17:41	cooldude127	user>
17:41	cooldude127	sorry about that
17:41	cooldude127	prolly should have pasted it
17:42	Chouser	symbols in backquoted lists are "resolved" based on namespace, in regular-quote they're left unqualified
17:42	cooldude127	back-quote resolves symbols to their namespaces
17:42	Chousuke	this is the key difference with CL backquote.
17:42	cooldude127	why does everyone beat me to my explanations!?
17:42	MarkVolkmann	Thanks!
17:43	Chousuke	in CL, '(+ 1 2) is equal to `(+ 1 2) :)
17:43	cooldude127	yeah, i like the distinction in clojure
17:44	Chouser	yes, it makes clojure macros a bit safer, without removing the ability to capture names if needed.
17:44	cooldude127	yummy
17:44	Chouser	quite a bit safer, really.
17:44	cooldude127	it's similar to hygienic macros without the suck
17:44	Chouser	exactly.
17:45	Chousuke	:)
17:45	cooldude127	i'm surprised it wasn't done before
17:45	cooldude127	makes so much sense
17:47	Chouser	yet another little piece of Clojure synergy -- namespaces and backquote working together to make macros better.
17:49	Chousuke	anyone able to summarise how macros in scheme work btw? never had time to figure out, but they seem to have some weird facilities for it
17:54	cooldude127	yeah i never could grasp it
17:54	cooldude127	in fact i'm almost certain i never successfully wrote a macro in scheme
18:04	powr-toc	I'm pretty new to clojure and trying to understand lazy-cons... Are there any simple examples of it's use anywhere?
18:04	cooldude127	it's used in a lot of functions in clojure itself
18:04	cooldude127	example: map is lazy
18:07	powr-toc	I'm looking at it right now, but it's still perhaps a little much... are there any oneliners which illustrate its use?
18:08	duck1123	where's that project euler wiki again
18:08	Chouser	yeah, map is a bit much. look at 'take'
18:08	hiredman	lisppaste8: url
18:08	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
18:08	duck1123	I'm sure that's full of uses
18:08	Chouser	powr-toc: 'take-while'
18:09	cooldude127	(do (def x (lazy-cons 1 (lazy-cons (println "x") nil))) nil)
18:09	Chouser	powr-toc: 'repeat' 'iterate' 'line-seq' I guess I'd recommend searching for lazy-cons in core.clj and trying the understand the ones that look sufficiently simple to you
18:10	powr-toc	cheers guys :-)
18:10	cooldude127	powr-toc: run that in a repl and see how "x" is not printed
18:10	cooldude127	then type x and hit enter
18:10	cooldude127	and you'll see it printed
18:10	lisppaste8	hiredman pasted "lazy-cons example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70799
18:13	askentask	=> java.lang.IllegalStateException: No transaction running
18:15	duck1123	askentask: what did you do to get that?
18:17	askentask	sorry i had deleted drscheme so i dont have them. but u use (define-syntax ...
18:19	lisppaste8	asken pasted "ref-problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70801
18:20	hiredman	well, uh
18:20	hiredman	the ref-set needs to be in a dosync
18:20	hiredman	or some kind of transaction
18:21	hiredman	see (doc ref-set)
18:21	Chousuke	that's a very ugly way to do a loop though. :P
18:21	askentask	:)
18:22	hiredman	nasty in deed
18:22	askentask	why is the dosync alter not working?
18:22	Chousuke	askentask: ref-set needs to be in a dosync
18:23	askentask	well, (map pr coll) is too easy ;)
18:23	askentask	yes
18:23	Chousuke	yeah, it wouldn't work :)
18:23	askentask	but alter?
18:23	Chousuke	you need (dorun (map pr coll))
18:23	askentask	(map pr [1 2 3])
18:23	askentask	(1nil 2nil 3nil)
18:23	Chousuke	it works in the repl because the repl prints the result
18:23	hiredman	heh
18:24	hiredman	oh the hilarity of (1nil 2nil 3nil)
18:24	cooldude127	lol
18:24	Chousuke	map is lazy, if you want side-effects to work, you have to use 'dorun
18:24	Chousuke	otherwise, you will eventually hit a bug.
18:25	askentask	how do i compile to a standalone program?
18:25	danlei	askentask: which revision?
18:26	danlei	askentask: http://rpdillon.googlepages.com/creatingexecutablejarswithclojure helped me very much, but it'll just work <= r1109
18:26	powr-toc	can I get function docs in the repl?
18:26	Chousuke	(doc fn)
18:26	danlei	powr-toc: (doc fun)
18:26	powr-toc	sweet/
18:27	Chousuke	askentask: (compile 'your.namespace)
18:27	Chousuke	askentask: will create a bunch of classes
18:28	Chousuke	askentask: if you have a -main method defined, then you should be abble to add those classes to your classpath and run java your.namespace ... IIRC
18:28	Chousuke	you'll need a very recent revision for that though.
18:30	powr-toc	is seq implemented in java or clojure?
18:31	cooldude127	Chousuke: 1110 or higher to be exact
18:31	danlei	powr-toc: the link i posted worked for me (r1119) too, if you use (ns something.MyClass), then your program with a (defn -main ... and compile it with the correct classpath and compile-path
18:31	Chousuke	powr-toc: java
18:31	Chousuke	seq (fn seq [coll] (. clojure.lang.RT (seq coll))))
18:32	sohail	how would you implement Python's with statement in clojure?
18:32	sohail	specifically I am referring to the extensibility of it
18:32	Chousuke	hmmh
18:32	cooldude127	sohail that shit up
18:32	Chousuke	extensibility?
18:32	cooldude127	*macro that shit up
18:32	sohail	cooldude127, huh?
18:32	cooldude127	sorry i get ahead of myself and skip words
18:33	powr-toc	Chousuke: I take it seq is primarily just to raise java collections etc... into clojure sequences?
18:33	Chousuke	sohail: see the implementation of with-open
18:33	sohail	Chousuke, yeah but how would you make with general
18:33	Chousuke	powr-toc: or maps or vectors.
18:33	Chousuke	sohail: what do you mean "general"?
18:33	sohail	for example, you could do (with mutex ...) or (with network-connection ...)
18:33	cooldude127	sohail: probably a combination of multimethods and macros
18:33	Chousuke	sohail: with-open already works with anything that's closeable.
18:33	powr-toc	Chousuke: cool
18:33	sohail	Chousuke, hm, I will look at it then
18:34	Chousuke	sohail: including files, database connections and whatnot
18:34	Chousuke	probably not locks, as those are not .close()'d
18:34	Chousuke	with-open is very simple :/
18:34	sohail	Chousuke, I see so it has to be a java object
18:34	sohail	java class I mean
18:34	Chousuke	sohail: well, yes.
18:35	sohail	so how would you do it in pure clojure
18:35	Chousuke	sohail: you could make a with macro based on a multimethod.
18:35	cooldude127	yay what i said
18:35	Chousuke	that calls a multimethod on its argument to close it.
18:35	sohail	only thing I can think of is with an extra tag in your StructMaps
18:35	danlei	sohail: what exacty do you mean? you can whip up your own with-macros for anything you can imagine
18:35	Chousuke	why structmaps? :/
18:36	sohail	Chouser, maybe just structs?
18:36	cooldude127	maybe just maps?
18:36	sohail	danlei, mental exercise
18:36	Chousuke	yeah
18:36	sohail	ok just maps
18:36	Chousuke	structMaps are just maps
18:36	Chousuke	the struct part in them is just an optimisation.
18:36	sohail	yeah but I was explicitly saying StructMaps for some reason which escapes me now
18:36	Chousuke	maybe you're thinking of them as classes or something.
18:36	Chousuke	or C structs.
18:36	sohail	maybe
18:37	sohail	well anyway, so you'd have to add ane xtra tag
18:37	sohail	so how do you prevent keys from colliding
18:37	sohail	can you have qualified keys?
18:37	cooldude127	yeah something that identifies what it is so that you can do different stuff with different closeable things
18:37	sohail	like :mywith.close-tag
18:38	cooldude127	sohail: mywith-close-tag?
18:38	cooldude127	keywords don't have namespaces
18:38	sohail	I guess that's the way to do it
18:38	sohail	and then you'd do a multimethod which uses :mywith-close-tag as the discriminating (I made that up) function?
18:39	cooldude127	yeah, and you would call it a dispatch function
18:39	cooldude127	:)
18:39	sohail	yeah dispatch function!
18:39	sohail	sorry, I've been out of clojure for like 2 weeks now but it is in the back of my mind churning away at all these types of things
18:40	cooldude127	lol
18:41	sohail	I guess I'll write a with macro in clojure today... if I can get post-AOT to run that is
18:41	askentask	(for [x (split \n (slurp file))] (println x))
18:43	Chousuke	(defmacro with [binding & body] `(let ~binding (with* ~(first binding) (fn [] ~@body))) (defn with* [bound-thing fn] (try (fn) (catch ...) (finally (whatever bound-thing)))) or something?
18:43	Chousuke	disclaimer: it's almost 2 AM here.
18:43	sohail	hey screw you man
18:43	sohail	I was gonna do it :P
18:43	sohail	(I'm kidding!)
18:43	Chousuke	sohail: you can fix the bugs in that one.
18:44	sohail	that's pretty much it
18:45	powr-toc	I've been following clojure online for a while... and it seems that die hard lispers hope it'll bring lisp to the masses... Whilst many java programmers like it too... Does anyone know what the Erlangers are saying about it?
18:45	sohail	they prefer Python
18:45	Chousuke	sohail: figure out how to make that work with multimethods in a sane way
18:45	Chousuke	or a useful way :P
18:45	sohail	:-)
18:46	powr-toc	sohail: they do?
18:47	danlei	i guess, if clojure doesn't bring lisp to the masses, nothing will do.
18:48	powr-toc	danlei: That's the impression I'm getting... not that I've ever really been a lisper, before... I've read lots about it for years, but have never quite got round to using it... till clojure
18:49	hiredman	"the masses"
18:49	cooldude127	i've used the other lisps, CL, scheme, and arc, but clojure is the only one i think i could actually use in a real app
18:50	danlei	cooldude127: well, have you tried something like allegro or lispworks?
18:50	hiredman	clojure has screwed be over for other languages, because now I never remember to put in commas
18:50	hiredman	me
18:50	danlarkin	hiredman: me too!
18:50	cooldude127	not much, gave a very brief look at lispworks
18:51	cooldude127	i'm one of those snobby os x users who hates everything that doesn't feel right on the mac
18:51	danlei	=)
18:51	cooldude127	and lispworks felt unwelcome
18:51	askentask	can i recur in macros?
18:51	danlei	so ... anything not written in cocoa =)
18:51	sohail	lispworks on Linux must be the ugliest application ever written
18:51	danlei	*using cocoa
18:51	cooldude127	danlei: almost
18:51	sohail	askentask, you should be able to I hope
18:51	danlei	cooldude127: i know that feeling ;)
18:52	cooldude127	yeah i was never this picky on windows
18:52	askentask	cooldude: same feeling, common lisp and scheme wre both nice but lacks the practicality of modern languages, i mean im so productiv ein python.
18:53	cooldude127	they lack libraries
18:53	Chousuke	askentask: macros are secretly functions
18:53	lisppaste8	asken pasted "for-macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70803
18:53	cooldude127	askentask: clojure is productive partly because you don't have to write everything yourself because you can call into java
18:53	askentask	^^ trying to implement clojures for, not working
18:54	askentask	exactly
18:54	danlei	common lisp is a nice language, if you can afford a proper, modern implementation. but then, you're bound to them. portable gui apps, for example. i wrote my first (little) one in clojure right the first day. things like that are hard in cl.
18:54	askentask	libs+awesome language
18:54	hiredman	uh
18:55	hiredman	askentask: anything preceded by a ~ should have a ` somewhere before it
18:56	hiredman	askentask: that macro is very broken
18:56	askentask	:)
18:56	hiredman	~ is unquote
18:57	powr-toc	I can see clojure being a relatively easy sell at work... Yet I'd never be able to sell lisp.
18:57	hiredman	powr-toc: sell a java library that is so powerful it has implemented its own lisp
18:58	cooldude127	clojure can integrate into existing java infrastructure = easy sell
18:58	powr-toc	the JVM, and Java eco-system make it possible
18:58	powr-toc	cooldude127: exactly
18:59	hiredman	askentask: I am still trying to figure how exactly you think this macro should work :P
18:59	powr-toc	plus, when talking libraries - I guess it'd be relatively easy to keep quite about implementing in clojure, and ship java class-files, with a thin java interface wrapper around what we do... our customers need never know it was anything else...
19:00	cooldude127	yeah, that's what's cool
19:00	cooldude127	do clojure under the table
19:00	cooldude127	no one has to know
19:00	cooldude127	it'll be our little secret
19:00	cooldude127	;)
19:00	askentask	hiredman: take one elem at a time, do body, when there is no more elems, quit
19:01	askentask	(for-x [1 2 3] (pr 10)) -> 10 10 10 nil
19:01	hiredman	just use map
19:01	askentask	yes
19:01	hiredman	(map (fn [_] (pr 10)) [1 2 4])
19:02	askentask	but the point is to learn macros
19:02	cooldude127	also the built-in for can do that almost
19:02	cooldude127	learn useful macros
19:02	hiredman	askentask: make a macro that uses map
19:02	cooldude127	find a necessary abstraction
19:02	cooldude127	look for repetition in your code and macro it away
19:03	askentask	where is "for" in the clojure-source-code? in boot.clj?
19:03	cooldude127	probably
19:03	hiredman	the clojure for is not what you just described, I believe
19:04	cooldude127	not exactly, but it can do that kind-of
19:05	Chouser	no, map is lazy -- no good for side-effects.
19:05	hiredman	oh
19:05	hiredman	yeah
19:05	hiredman	damn it
19:05	cooldude127	so it for
19:05	cooldude127	*so is for
19:05	cooldude127	both need a (doall ...)
19:05	cooldude127	around them
19:06	hiredman	they don't if you aren't trying to translate a C for loop into clojure :P
19:06	Chouser	(defmacro for-x [seq & body] `(dotimes [x# (count ~seq)] ~@body)) ; untested
19:06	cooldude127	that looks pretty nice
19:07	Chouser	seems odd to take a seq and only use it's length, but whatever...
19:12	Chousuke	I think map is just fine for side-effects
19:12	Chousuke	you just need to remember the 'dorun (or 'doall)
19:14	powr-toc	Is there a way to format output in a printf style (%s etc...) in clojure?
19:15	danlei	format
19:15	blackdog	printf
19:16	Chousuke	powr-toc: the format function uses java.util.Formatter format strings.
19:16	askentask	how would i make a while that doesnt need refs or def?
19:17	askentask	macros are so hyped up but i never neeed them, a normal function pretty much always does it...
19:17	powr-toc	cool
19:17	Chousuke	askentask: consider yourself lucky then :)
19:18	Chousuke	does a while loop make sense in clojure? :/
19:18	danlei	hm
19:18	Chousuke	maybe if you're using refs
19:18	danlei	has someone tried to implement cl's format for clojure?
19:19	hiredman	I think in clojure alot of loops naturaly unroll into seqs
19:19	Chousuke	askentask: a while would only make sense if it were called like (while (< 1 @x) dostuff)
19:20	Chousuke	askentask: so you can write your while assuming that the test contains a var
19:20	Chousuke	er, ref*
19:21	Chousuke	it's not too difficult. you need loop, if and recur.
20:14	askentask	fuck a guy killed himself liv eon justin.tv
20:14	askentask	pretty horrible
20:14	askentask	read it on hacker news