#clojure – 2008-11-17

2008-11-17

03:14	Lau_of_DK	Morning gents
04:20	polli	anyone using webjure?
04:29	tWip	polli: me, but I am the author
04:29	polli	oh :)
04:30	polli	tWip: I'm having some problems let me see if I can sort them out
04:31	tWip	polli: ok, you can report bugs in the project or ask me directly
04:31	tWip	I'm planning to do some work on it this week to catch up with clojure changes
04:31	tWip	but now I'm on my employers time, so I'll check back in the evening :)
04:36	polli	tWip: I'll send you a diff
05:09	Pupeno	Good morning.
06:03	Pupeno	Hello Lau_of_DK.
06:06	Lau_of_DK	Hello Mr. Pupeno :)
06:07	Pupeno	Lau_of_DK: how are you doing?
06:07	Lau_of_DK	Pupeno: Im doing good thanks, you ?
06:10	Pupeno	Lau_of_DK: I've got a cold, but I'm doing ok.
06:10	Lau_of_DK	Pupeno: Many peopl sick these days :(
06:12	Pupeno	Lau_of_DK: More Clojure time! :)
06:14	duck1123	are either of you doing Clojure for your work, or only on your own time?
06:14	Lau_of_DK	duck1123: a bit of both
06:15	Pupeno	duck1123: only my own time for now.
06:17	Pupeno	duck1123: and you?
06:17	duck1123	currently my own time, but I have some ruby code that I'm thinking of translating
06:19	duck1123	but I've been doing a web site with Compojure on the weekends
06:19	Lau_of_DK	Can we see? :)
06:22	duck1123	http://kronk.homedns.org:8080/
06:22	duck1123	I spent the weekend fighting the Jena api
06:23	duck1123	at least, when my wife wasn't on the computer
06:24	Pupeno	duck1123: what is it?
06:25	duck1123	it's going to be a site for managing rdf assertations
06:25	duck1123	I'm still not very far
06:38	Pupeno	Is there a better way to write (map (fn [x] (.blah x)) xs)? that is, without defining the anonymous function.
06:39	Lau_of_DK	You mean like (map #(+ 5 %) (range 10)) ?
06:40	mibu	duck1123: what does it mean managing rdf assertions?
06:41	Pupeno	Lau_of_DK: is #( the syntax for defining a function without spelling out fn?
06:41	Pupeno	Lau_of_DK: I meant something like (map .blah xs), where blah is a Java method, except that (map .blah xs) doesn't work.
06:41	mibu	pupeno: (map #((.blah %)) xs)
06:42	mibu	pupeno: the extra parens inside shouldn't be there.
06:42	Lau_of_DK	user> (map inc (range 10))
06:42	Lau_of_DK	(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10)
06:42	Lau_of_DK
06:43	Pupeno	Lau_of_DK: but I want to use a java method, not a clojure function.
06:44	mibu	(map #(.toLowerCase %) '("Hello" "World"))
06:45	Pupeno	mibu: that still defines an anonymous function.
06:45	mibu	duck1123: are you using an RDF store?
06:45	Pupeno	What I really wanted to know if there's a way to treat java methods as functions, maybe there isn't.
06:50	mibu	do you guys use enclojure?
06:51	Pupeno	mibu: I've tried.
06:51	mibu	it messed up my netbeans.
06:51	mibu	pupeno: did you have any troubles with it?
06:51	hoeck	Pupeno: http://paste.lisp.org/display/67182
06:53	Pupeno	mibu: I don't remember why I moved to NetBeans 6.5 and trunk for Enclojure and it just didn't work. Ended up using Emacs. Not sure if I could say it messed up my NetBeans, as it looked messed up from the start.
06:56	Pupeno	OK, I bet there's a very simple way to do this, but I cant find it. How do I turn `((a b) (c d)) into '(a b c d)?
07:15	Pupeno	(reduce concat list-of-lists) seems to do the trick.
07:15	Chousuke	Pupeno: I don't think there's a way to map java methods without wrapping them
07:18	Chousuke	Pupeno: #(.foo %) is the preferred method nowadays I think, but there's also (memfn foo)
07:19	Pupeno	Chousuke: I see. Well, the existence of memfn kind of prooves your point there.
07:19	Chousuke	the clojure compiler could try to be smart and detect when you're trying to use a java method as a Fn though, so that you could just (map .foo java-objects) :/
07:20	Chousuke	but maybe that's going past the level of cleverness allowed for a compiler :)
07:23	hoeck	Pupeno: there is java Reflection, see http://paste.lisp.org/display/67182 for an example
07:24	Chousuke	memfn does that.
07:26	Pupeno	Ok... time to learn how to play with a DB from Clojure.
07:26	Lau_of_DK	Pupeno: post your findings :)
08:09	ranok	haha
08:09	ranok	Bill C's homepage is pretty awesome
08:10	Lau_of_DK	link0r?
08:10	ranok	billc: Mine is quite similar, though I wasted way too much time on mine http://jacobtorrey.com
08:10	ranok	Lau_of_DK: http://bc.tech.coop/
08:10	Lau_of_DK	thanks
08:16	Pupeno	is http://mvnrepository.com/ down?
08:17	duck1123	ded for me
08:17	duck1123	loaded
08:18	duck1123	took a little while, but seems fine in w3m at least
08:18	Pupeno	ok, thank.s
08:19	duck1123	has anybody been working on an ORM for Clojure?
08:19	gnuvince	No that I've heard of
08:19	polli	tWip: I've sent you a patch
08:20	Pupeno	duck1123: well, the O doesn't make much sense in Clojure world, doesn't it?
08:20	Pupeno	duck1123: a SRM would be nice though (Structure Relational Mapping).
08:20	duck1123	DSRM?
08:22	duck1123	I'm getting sick of writing SQL queries.
08:23	Chouser	duck1123: would you be any happier if writing SQL queries was string mangling? Such as if it were a nice Clojure-y DSL?
08:24	Lau_of_DK	Had a good nights sleep Chouser? :)
08:24	duck1123	Chouser: that would make it a bit nicer
08:24	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: yes thanks!
08:24	Chouser	duck1123: I don't know of such a beast yet, but I've been pondering it some. I think it's what I want.
08:25	Pupeno	I think something like cl-sql would be nice, like (select [table1 table2] :where (= blah bluh)) etc.
08:25	tWip	polli: Got it, thanks. I'll apply it when I get home.
08:26	duck1123	speaking of, is there a better way to concat strings then (apply str (concat s1 s2)) or using format?
08:28	Lau_of_DK	user> (str "string1" "string")
08:28	Lau_of_DK	"string1string"
08:28	Lau_of_DK	?
08:29	duck1123	hmm, I thought I tried that... I'll have to see again
09:18	lisppaste8	blackdog pasted "require?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70567
09:18	blackdog_	how come the commented out require works and the other does not?
09:18	blackdog_	doesn't find clojure.contrib.sql in the (require) version
09:24	duck1123	try (:require (clojure.contrib [sql :as sql]))
09:24	duck1123	at least, that's how I always do it
09:26	blackdog_	duck1123, nope that doesn't work, - thought :require was part of ns?? but O want to require without defininf a top level namespace as this is just a script
09:28	blackdog_	(doc require) needs updating for new package structure
09:31	duck1123	I'm sorry, wrap that in a ns
09:31	blackdog_	yes, that works
09:32	blackdog_	but (require) doesn't, I'm in a script and a namespace is irrelevant
09:32	duck1123	oh... I think I misunderstood your question
09:32	Chouser	without the ns macro, you need to quote the args: (require '[clojure...])
09:32	blackdog_	ah
09:33	blackdog_	ok that's better, thanks
09:43	blarf	what is the mod operator?
09:43	duck1123	rem
09:44	duck1123	for remainder
09:44	blarf	is let permitted anywhere?
09:45	duck1123	you can't let inside of a parameter list i think
09:45	duck1123	can't think of anywhere else
09:45	Lau_of_DK	Its a special form, and pretty well documented on clojure.org/special_forms#let
09:47	blarf	but if i have my own func: (defn any [cond coll]
09:47	blarf	(> (count (filter cond coll))
09:47	blarf	0))
09:47	blarf	(any #(= % true)
09:47	blarf	(let
09:48	rhickey	blarf: please paste:
09:48	rhickey	lisppaste8: url
09:48	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
09:49	ranok	so
09:49	ranok	I've been developing my own language
09:50	ranok	that is rather lispy
09:50	ranok	but has a number of Erlang features
09:50	ranok	and some other stuff I find lacking
09:52	leafw	ranok: post it, document it, illustrate with good examples. Otherwise why talk about ii.
09:52	ranok	it's still very early in it's development
09:52	leafw	then tell us next year :)
09:53	ranok	it auto memoizes clean recursive lambda funcs
09:53	ranok	something I've found lacking in a number of other language
09:53	ranok	s
09:55	ranok	leafw: http://www.r4n0k.com/2008/10/28/new-programming-language-fang/
09:55	ranok	since you asked
09:56	Lau_of_DK	ranok: sounds interesting :) Maybe you should launch #fang for it, if it can raise a community?
09:57	ranok	Lau_of_DK: thanks
10:03	Lau_of_DK	user> (time (dorun (map #(if (prime? %) 0 -2) (range 1000000))))
10:03	Lau_of_DK	"Elapsed time: 2716.511874 msecs"
10:03	Lau_of_DK	nil
10:03	Lau_of_DK	user> (time (dorun (pmap #(if (prime? %) 0 -2) (range 1000000))))
10:03	Lau_of_DK	"Elapsed time: 13219.155438 msecs"
10:03	Lau_of_DK
10:03	Lau_of_DK	Does anybody know why pmap gives the worst performance of the 2 ?
10:04	ranok	Lau_of_DK: you on a multicore?
10:04	Lau_of_DK	Yes sir
10:04	ranok	2 cores?
10:05	Lau_of_DK	Yes sir
10:05	wwmorgan	Lau_of_DK: did you try it more than once? There may be some JVM optimizations going on
10:05	Lau_of_DK	Tried it a few times yes, gives same results
10:07	ranok	perhaps there is some lock contention with the 2 cores
10:07	Lau_of_DK	I'd say thats impossible?
10:08	Lau_of_DK	Both cores go up to about 60% laod each once I start computing
10:09	rhickey	user=> (doc pmap)
10:09	rhickey	-------------------------
10:09	rhickey	clojure.core/pmap
10:09	rhickey	([f coll] [f coll & colls])
10:09	rhickey	Like map, except f is applied in parallel. Semi-lazy in that the
10:09	rhickey	parallel computation stays ahead of the consumption, but doesn't
10:09	rhickey	realize the entire result unless required. Only useful for
10:09	rhickey	computationally intensive functions where the time of f dominates
10:09	rhickey	the coordination overhead.
10:09	ranok	try doing something that requires more time on element
10:10	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: you are not meeting that criteria
10:10	blarf	is there no zip-function?
10:10	ranok	because isprime? is tiny, so most of the time is spent scheduling the work
10:10	Lau_of_DK	oh, because time of f is not big enough ?
10:10	Lau_of_DK	@ rhickey ?
10:10	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: right
10:11	Lau_of_DK	rhickey: thanks :)
10:11	ranok	yeah, run something like factorial
10:11	blarf	is there no zip-function?
10:11	hiredman	blarf: interleave?
10:11	rhickey	blarf: doing what? map list?
10:19	blarf	zip [1 2 3] [4 5 6] -> [[1 4] [2 5] [3 6]]
10:19	blarf	i wrote one, just owndering if there is one
10:20	gnuvince	blarf: (map vector [1 2 3] [4 5 6])
10:20	rhickey	No there isn't as (map vector [1 2 3] [4 5 6])
10:20	rhickey	is so easy
10:21	rhickey	as is map list, map hash-map etc
10:22	blarf	i see, more general than normal zip
10:24	gnuvince	blarf: that's because map can take more than one collection, unlike in a language such as Haskell.
10:25	gnuvince	which is why they got zip up to zip8 or something
10:46	blarf	cant i define a function inside a function?
10:46	blarf	gnuvince: lol zip8
10:47	rhickey	blarf: (let [foo (fn [bar] ...) ...
10:47	blarf	yes that is a bit weird with Haskell, why cant i have multiple argument list? because of the purity?
10:48	gnuvince	blarf: because of the type system
10:48	gnuvince	And I was wrong
10:48	gnuvince	It stops at zip7
10:48	gnuvince	http://haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/base/Data-List.html#v:zip7
10:53	ReplRat	Does anybody know how to make Emacs see an external Slime info tree? It already loads the elisp OK.
10:54	blarf	how do i call Javas round method? i forgot the ynstax
10:54	wwmorgan	blarf: (Math/round 2.5)
11:03	blarf	how do i repeat an action ? like i want to test (Math/round (* (rand) 10)), can i do (run-times 100 f) ?
11:03	blarf	repeat is not what i want
11:04	wwmorgan	blarf: dotimes is what you want
11:04	rhickey	blarf: there is dotimes and repeatedly
11:12	tWip	What class loader is the agent system using? I'm getting weird ClassCastExceptions for the same class when using agents from servlets.
11:12	tWip	or rather, how do I control it
11:14	rhickey	tWip: are you doing add-classpath?
11:14	tWip	no
11:16	rhickey	tWip: it's hard to answer generally, as servlet containers mess with classloaders
11:16	tWip	yes
11:16	tWip	but is there a way I can control it?
11:17	tWip	I could easily set the classloader in some initialization code so that it is the same as the servlet classes.
11:17	rhickey	there is a use-context-classloader which, when true, will cause the thread's context-loader to be used
11:17	tWip	ok, so binding that should help... I'll try
11:26	rhickey	tWip: where is clojure.jar relative to the servlet?
11:26	rhickey	tWip: i.e. in the servlet or installed in the servlet appserver?
11:26	tWip	in WEB-INF/lib
11:26	Chouser	I haven't noticed anybody volunteer to do pretty-printing, but I've not done sufficient CL to know what's desired. It this a good model: http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/6503
11:27	blarf	how do take input?
11:27	gnuvince	from stdin you mean?
11:28	Chouser	blarf: you could use read-line
11:28	Chouser	blarf: or any Java class you choose
11:30	blarf	I?
11:30	blarf	yes when i do print in interpreter i want input
11:30	blarf	wait
11:30	blarf	(getLine)
11:30	blarf	or soemthing
11:30	blarf	in the repl
11:32	rhickey	Chouser: looks interesting, if somewhat complex. Maybe there's a simpler Scheme pprinter?
11:32	blarf	how do i convert to int? (sorry for allt he questions)
11:33	Chouser	blarf: from what?
11:33	Chouser	blarf: from string: (Integer. "12") ==> 12
11:33	tWip	Ok I don't get classloader errors anymore.
11:34	tWip	Still seems that Jetty doesn't like you messing with its request objects from other threads :P
11:37	Chouser	rhickey: it seems to me that pprinting code differently than non-code data will be more complex, but worth it. Do you agree?
11:42	blarf	is there a return ala Python? that just exits at a specific place ina function?
11:43	Chousuke	I don't know if there exist tricks to simulate return, but no.
11:43	Chouser	blarf: nope. If you feel like you want that, your function is probably straying toward imperative style.
11:46	Chousuke	functional style can be difficult to reason about, sometimes.
11:46	Chousuke	certainly it is for me.
11:46	Chouser	yes, it takes practice.
11:46	Chousuke	usually it helps to scale down your function in that case.
11:46	Chousuke	if it's getting too complex, write a subset of it as a separate function
11:47	Chousuke	then use that to write the bigger function
11:47	blarf	yes, imw riting tictactoe, some stuff just is imperative though (yeah i guess someone willa rgue with that :) )
11:47	Chouser	no, Clojure's practical. If it has to be imperative, so be it. But you'll have to do it without a "return" :-)
11:48	Chousuke	you'll have to think of your code as a series of transformations
11:48	Chousuke	when you add a move to the board, the result is an entirely new board.
11:48	Chousuke	and you discard the old one
11:48	Chousuke	unless you need it.
11:49	duck1123	I always make the joke that Lisp syntax sucks, that's why Lisp programmers will do as much as possible by writing very little code.
11:49	Chousuke	just like when you add 1 and 1 in maths, the result is 2, which is not either of the ones.
11:50	Chousuke	optimally there's only one 1 anyway
11:54	sohail	is there a planet clojure somewhere
11:55	blarf	(play-game brd)
11:55	sohail	I've been busy doing other stuff and the mailing list is getting too busy for me to follow
11:55	Chouser	sohail: I don't think so.
11:55	blarf	java.lang.NumberFormatException: For input string: " (play-game coll)))"
11:55	sohail	Chouser, are there even enough blogs covering clojure? :-)
11:56	danlarkin	sohail: there will be eventually!
11:57	Chouser	but yes, the google group seemed to explode this weekend.
12:00	Chousuke	blarf: if you want help with errors, you'll need to give more context. use paste.lisp.org for pastes :)
12:00	sohail	the Clojure for LISP (caps!) programmers thread has some interesting posts
12:01	Chousuke	the OP is being a bit flamey though.
12:02	cemerick	a bit? :-P
12:02	Chouser	yeah, my natural responses to most of his comments have been... unhelpful, shall we say.
12:03	Chousuke	I'm not sure if he understands that vectors and maps and sets are equivalent with lists as data structures.
12:04	blarf	can if else branch like: if cond (1 expr) (several expr) ?
12:05	blarf	?paste
12:05	Chousuke	(if cond (expr) (do (several) (exprs))
12:05	Chousuke	oops
12:05	Chousuke	)
12:06	hiredman	does do return the value of the last expression?
12:06	Chouser	hiredman: yes
12:06	Chousuke	IIRC yes.
12:09	sohail	Chousuke, if you use erc, I think it is built-in
12:10	Chousuke	I will not leave irssi :)
12:15	askentasken	hmm
12:15	askentasken	did the paste come?
12:15	askentasken	http://paste.lisp.org/display/70574
12:17	askentasken	oh wait it does woek now, i have no idea what the error was caused by before though
12:17	askentasken	but how can i better "move"
12:18	Chouser	askentasken: what's updateAt?
12:18	askentasken	merging computer-move and player-move but i cant branch the if with lets and then "jump back"
12:18	rhickey	Chouser: how do you distinguish code from data?
12:19	Chouser	rhickey: two possibilities: yet another option (just like line length, etc.) or make a guess (PersitentList starting with symbol named def is probably code)
12:20	Chousuke	askentasken: camelcase isn't very lispy. :) but hmm
12:20	askentasken	Chouser: oh my own list-function, perhaps there is a bultin already? it takes a list an index and a value and returns a new list with the val @ index
12:20	askentasken	camel-case?
12:20	askentasken	helloThere?
12:21	sohail	Chouser, why do you want to differentiate?
12:21	Chousuke	askentasken: yeah
12:21	askentasken	i wanted to differ betwene fucntion and variable, is underscore lispier?
12:21	Chousuke	askentasken: don't differentiate.
12:22	Chousuke	askentasken: they're just names
12:22	Chouser	sohail: (defn foo [a b] wrap-here ...) vs. (a b c d e wrap at end of line)
12:22	Chousuke	askentasken: a function can be used as data too
12:22	Chousuke	like you do with map there :P
12:22	wwmorgan	askentasken: move looks like a good place to use a multimethod
12:22	drewr	Chouser: I thought of you when reading http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/11/ejacs-javascript-interpreter-for-emacs.html
12:23	Chouser	askentasken: use a vector instead of a list, and then use assoc instead of updateAt: (assoc [7 8 9] 1 99)
12:23	Chouser	drewr: really? Why's that?
12:24	Chousuke	what is that updateAt function anyway?
12:24	drewr	Chouser: Implementing JS in lisp I guess.
12:25	rhickey	Chouser: Clojure->ClojureScript->ejacs->elisp->extending emacs with Clojure!!
12:25	drewr	Not exactly what you've been doing, but related.
12:25	drewr	Yes!
12:25	hiredman	hah!
12:25	Chouser	ah. lovely. :-)
12:25	hiredman	mad as hatters
12:25	sohail	Chouser, oh for printing. Is it really important?
12:26	Chouser	sohail: I think for a pretty-printer, it'd be very nice. Think (pprint (macroexpand ...))
12:26	hiredman	that would be nice
12:27	sohail	I forget, what does slime do with clojure's macroexpand
12:28	Chousuke	was let a recur target?
12:29	askentasken	Chousuke: i updated with updateAt
12:30	Chousuke	sohail: it doesn't pretty-print it, that's for sure
12:30	askentasken	http://paste.lisp.org/display/70574#1
12:31	sohail	Chousuke, ok
12:31	Chouser	askentasken: use assoc!
12:34	askentasken	i do!
12:34	askentasken	now
12:39	askentasken	wwmorgan: would a multimethod maie it shorter and make the common tasks in both to one?
12:41	wwmorgan	askentasken: depends on how you refactor it. What a multimethod would do is make it dead-easy to support different AIs or multiple human players
12:42	wwmorgan	you would want to do what you suggest anyway, whether you use multimethods or not
12:47	askentasken	yes but i dont see how to do it really
12:47	askentasken	no matter how i do it seems i need to separate branches
12:47	askentasken	since one calls for input
12:48	askentasken	you are right about AIs, isee what you mean, then i could easily define new move for different strategies
12:49	askentasken	can i do if-else-let-let?
12:49	askentasken	one let if true or else the other let?
12:50	kotarak	(let [x (if condition a b)] ...) like that?
12:51	askentasken	ah
12:52	Chousuke	hmm
12:56	Pupeno	lisppaste8: url
12:56	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
12:57	askentasken	hmm the if-else-let still is 10 lines
12:57	lisppaste8	Pupeno pasted "Failure creating table" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70577
12:57	askentasken	oh well, i will try to figure out multi-methods since that seems the best way if i want to do AI like min-max or soemhting
12:58	Pupeno	Any ideas why that code fails with the error at the bottom?
12:58	Pupeno	I'm trying to create a table with an auto-increment id using derby.
13:04	askentasken	when using multi-methods, i can have some of them take no args and some taking several or 1 right?
13:04	askentasken	like human-player gives the inout so deosnt need the board(seees it) but computer might need it if it uses a strategy(and not random like now)
13:04	Chousuke	askentasken: I made a version using multimethods as an example... I think has-winner? is buggy though :D
13:05	Chousuke	http://paste.lisp.org/display/70574#2
13:05	topo	is it possible to use clojure with emacs?
13:06	Chousuke	I don't know what the purpose of sum-indexes was so I just put in something :P
13:07	deklund	topo: see http://clojure.org/getting_started#toc4
13:07	askentasken	im tryong to grok the multis, but :
13:07	askentasken	(defmulti move :player)
13:07	askentasken	(defn human [] {:player :Human
13:07	askentasken	:fn (Integer. (read-line))})
13:07	askentasken	does it have to be a {} ?
13:08	Chousuke	keywords are functions of maps
13:08	Chousuke	in there, :player is actually a function
13:08	Chousuke	and (:player {:player 'foo}) will return 'foo :)
13:08	topo	ok
13:08	askentasken	ah vr nice Chousuke
13:09	Chousuke	multimethods are a bit tricky I guess
13:09	Chousuke	I still don't grok them completely :P
13:10	Chousuke	however, the code in my paste seems to work (at least the multimethods) so maybe it'll work as an example.
13:11	Chousuke	askentasken: basically, the dispatch-function is a function that returns dispatch values (which can be anything)
13:11	askentasken	what is buggy about hasWinner? though?
13:11	Chousuke	well it declares me the winner after the moves "2" and "3"
13:12	Chousuke	but that might just be my sum-indexes
13:12	Chousuke	I had no clue what it was supposed to do and didn't feel like thinking so I just put something :P
13:12	askentasken	not me....
13:12	Chousuke	well, your sum-indexes might be doing something else.
13:13	Chousuke	I see you're using some maths trick to figure out the winner but I wasn't able to tell how it worked.
13:13	askentasken	(defn sum-indexes [coll indexes]
13:13	Chousuke	and your original paste was missing sum-indexes :)
13:13	askentasken	(sum (map #(nth coll %) indexes)))
13:13	askentasken	(defn sum [coll]
13:13	askentasken	(reduce + coll))
13:13	Chousuke	hmmh :/
13:13	askentasken	you guessed pretty well
13:16	Chousuke	anyway, about multimethods: each (defmethod) call defines how to behave for given dispatch values as returned by the dispatch function
13:17	Chousuke	so (defmethod move :human [whatever here] ...) defines how move behaves when your dispatch function returns ":human"
13:18	Chousuke	you can return vectors or whatever from a dispatch function too.
13:19	Chousuke	that's the entirety of my multimethod knowledge :p
13:19	ericthorsen	is there a shorter shortcut for default values for keys? (let [{:keys [a b c] :or {a 1 b 2 c 3}) ; I have to type the keys 2x again :(
13:22	Chouser	ericthorsen: I think that's it. If you could have any sytax you want, what would it be?
13:23	ericthorsen	Chouser: I guess something with defaults from a vector bound to the ordinals of the keys...
13:24	ericthorsen	Chouser: Like (let [{:keys [a b c] :or [1 2 3])
13:24	Chouser	hm, that seems nice.
13:24	ericthorsen	Chouser: I already selected the keys...just need default values for them
13:24	Chouser	right.
13:31	Chouser	hm, but you can specify :syms and :strs along with :keys if you want, or specify other map keys on their own. In any of these cases the ordering for an :or vector becomes ambiguous.
13:32	Chouser	so maybe (let [{:keys [a b c :or 1 2 3] :syms [d e f :or 4 5 6]} ...
13:33	Chousuke	askentasken: noticed that there's a nicer definition for print-board too: (doseq [part (partition 3 board)] (println part))) :)
13:37	Chousuke	heh, found the bug too.
13:37	Chousuke	I had key and val swapped in assoc
13:37	Chousuke	now the game runs and works correctly :)
13:46	Lau_of_DK	Good evening gents
13:50	askentasken	your dose doesnt work
13:52	Chousuke	which version of clojure are you using?
13:55	askentasken	i can do recursion ina defmethod right?
13:55	askentasken	20080916 btw
13:58	Chousuke	that's pretty old
13:58	Chousuke	you should be using SVN :)
13:58	Chousuke	there were some big changes recently.
13:59	askentasken	ok
14:03	danlei`	askentasken: you can, but there is no tail-call optimization, you can get that by `recur'
14:04	Chouser	recur also works in a defmethod :-)
14:04	danlei`	yes, that's what i meant
14:05	askentasken	yes i know
14:09	Lau_of_DK	kotarak: I just read your documentation for Euler 191 and 205 + the code. Thanks alot, that was very insightful. Nice consise solutions also
14:10	askentasken	hmm actually it would be pretty easy to add AI anyway
14:10	askentasken	without multimethods
14:10	askentasken	meh them multis break my code
14:10	kotarak	Lau_of_DK: thanks. :)
14:10	kotarak	Lau_of_DK: brute force - beh
14:10	kotarak	Lau_of_DK: in that way it's much more fun
14:11	Lau_of_DK	There was some smarts behind it
14:22	Lau_of_DK	Chouser: Have you fixed The Source ?
14:25	Lau_of_DK	@ everybody: If an agent is send-off to (defn run-oce [a] (dosync (ref-set x y))) does the agent the self destruct after one call to this func?
14:25	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: (source) may be doomed now that .clj files aren't included in clojure.jar
14:29	Lau_of_DK	Chouser: Surely there must be a work0round ?
14:29	hiredman	Lau_of_DK: does a Thread exist after it has finished running?
14:30	Lau_of_DK	hiredman: thats the question
14:30	hiredman	well, Thread is an Object
14:31	hiredman	do Objects hang around when you are done with them?
14:31	Chouser	agents are not threads. an agent hangs around as long as it's being referenced by something.
14:31	Lau_of_DK	If they do, I want to know how to kill them
14:31	cooldude127	if you lose a reference to an agent, does it go away?
14:31	Chouser	hiredman: I think Threads are a little different, since they have OS resources.
14:31	cooldude127	and stop doing its stuff?
14:31	Chouser	cooldude127: yes.
14:31	Chouser	cooldude127: no
14:32	Lau_of_DK	cooldude127: maybe
14:32	cooldude127	yes it goes away, but it keeps doing its stuff?
14:32	Chouser	I think a thread running an action for an agent will continue running and will in fact keep a reference to the agent.
14:32	cooldude127	so it's not really lost in the gc sense
14:33	Chouser	When the action is complete, if nothing else is referencing the agent, the agent will go away.
14:33	cooldude127	something still has the reference
14:33	Lau_of_DK	But Chouser, why do we always have to (send-off agent self) if it lingers?
14:33	tWip	where would it linger? if not referenced
14:33	askentasken	i got multis working and its slightly more code but might make it easier to change and work with later
14:33	askentasken	i got multis working and its slightly more code but might make it easier to change and work with later
14:34	jgracin	I wonder who will be the first 100 user in history of Clojure.. :-)
14:34	jgracin	100th
14:34	cooldude127	how do you kill a continuously running agent? would this involve defining the action so there is a flag to stop?
14:34	albino	jgracin: is that based of mailing list or what?
14:34	sohail	Chouser, is the test contrib being tested on a build server?
14:34	Lau_of_DK	cooldude127: thats how I do it
14:34	jgracin	on irc users right now.
14:34	tWip	I didn't think agents are running per se
14:35	sohail	and really, why doesn't rhickey add tests... This perplexes me
14:35	tWip	threads run, agents just allow access to state
14:35	Lau_of_DK	agents are thread-wrappers afaik
14:35	tWip	no agents are run in a thread pool
14:35	Chouser	cooldude127: I don't know how to stop a running agent, without the action itself checking a global ref or something. There may be a Java way.
14:35	Chouser	sohail: not that I know of, but I'm not sure.
14:35	cooldude127	Chouser: that's what i thought
14:36	cooldude127	oh man ERC is making me giddy
14:36	Chouser	tWip: true, but while an action is being done on an agent, one can think of the agent as "running", even though it's actually just a thread running a fn
14:37	rhickey	sohail: testing is overrated, at least the traditional unit tests, but I'm all for running tests others write
14:37	tWip	yes.. therefore I don't see the issue of "making an agent stop". do you mean possibly long running fns on the agent
14:37	rhickey	hagman wins!
14:37	jgracin	and we have a winner!!
14:37	tWip	:D
14:37	tomhickey	=)
14:38	cooldude127	tWip: i mean an action that sends the same action again, making the same action run on the agent over and over
14:38	sohail	rhickey, I'm not sure that it is overrated. I have seen really ridiculous unit tests but testing (for example) that a bug doesn't regress is quite useful.
14:38	Chouser	congrats, hagman!
14:38	sohail	hagman is in the wrong channel
14:38	jgracin	sohail: :-)
14:39	tWip	cooldude127: why not just recur in a thread then?
14:39	rhickey	sohail: there is only so much time, I find it better spent thinking about what I am doing first rather than writing tests, but I can see the value in other approaches
14:40	sohail	rhickey, I'm not closed to your approach either (let others write the tests?) so I am interested in how it turns out
14:40	cooldude127	tWip: that's a good question. what's different about running an ordinary function in a thread as opposed to sending an action to an agent
14:41	rhickey	cooldude127: an agent runs on a thread from a thread pool
14:41	cooldude127	ok
14:41	cooldude127	it's also a little simpler to think about i would say
14:41	hiredman	does clojure have one thread pool and all agents are run on threads from that pool?
14:42	Chouser	two thread pools -- one sized based on number of cores (for send)
14:42	rhickey	hiredman: one for send, one for send-off, right now. I 'll probably add agent pools at some point
14:42	Chouser	one that grows (for send-off)
14:42	drewc	rhickey: i need a domain name for the clojure project hosting site .. any ideas?
14:42	hiredman	I see
14:43	tWip	projecture?
14:43	gnuvince	:)
14:43	drewc	i like!
14:43	cooldude127	nice
14:43	cooldude127	that was quick
14:43	gnuvince	The pronounciation is fun
14:43	sohail	clojforge? clojr (web 2.0)
14:44	cooldude127	i thought about clojforge
14:44	Chouser	cloforj
14:44	drewc	yeah, i thought about the forj puns too.
14:44	drewc	too punny!
14:44	Chouser	projecture's better though
14:44	cooldude127	i can't imagine tell someone about cloforj and having them not ask how to spell that
14:44	Chouser	or just "forj"
14:44	Chouser	forjure
14:45	cooldude127	my vote is for projecture
14:45	cooldude127	forjury
14:45	cooldude127	lol
14:45	sohail	clojectsrus
14:45	sohail	I don't even know what that means
14:45	cooldude127	lol
14:45	cooldude127	this is getting out of hand ;)
14:45	rhickey	clojects.org
14:45	sohail	I got it!
14:45	gnuvince	sohail: dude, I just broke my jaw trying to pronounce that
14:45	sohail	proj4cloj
14:45	kotarak	+1 projecture. cloforj is too hard a break between clo and forj and Klo is something different in germnan.
14:45	cooldude127	clojects!
14:45	cooldude127	rhickey ftw
14:46	sohail	clojects is also nice
14:46	candera	clojury
14:47	candera	openjure? :p
14:47	Lau_of_DK	rhickey: quick one about agents. if I started 100 agents using (map agent (replicate 5 0)) how do I kill them if I need to free all the resources?
14:47	sohail	projecture sounds like a math library
14:47	gnuvince	drewc: start a poll on the google group and let's see what happens
14:48	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: creating an agent doesn't "start" anything
14:48	drewc	gnuvince: sounds like a plan.
14:48	cooldude127	Lau_of_DK: that doesn't start the agent, send or send-off does
14:48	Lau_of_DK	Ok Mr. Nit Pick - If I define my agents like so, and then send-off those agents to a certain func, how do I kill them ?
14:48	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: you got good answers, agents are subjects to gc, threads running their actions return to the pool
14:48	Lau_of_DK	In Clojure, edited in Emacs, evaluted to Slime
14:48	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: unless the agent is queued or running, just losing the reference to it will allow GC to take it away.
14:49	cooldude127	write the function in a way that allows you to stop it on demand based on a ref or something
14:49	cooldude127	at least i think that would work
14:49	Lau_of_DK	Loosing the reference, means (def agents (map ...)), then I have to redef agents to 0 ?
14:50	Chouser	cooldude127: yep: (loop [...] (when @keep-running (recur)))
14:50	cooldude127	yeah that's what i thought
14:51	Chouser	flying read. so pretty.
14:52	cooldude127	what happens if you do (send nil my-action)
14:52	cooldude127	error?
14:52	tWip	null pointer exception?
14:52	Chouser	tWip wins
14:52	cooldude127	k
14:54	Lau_of_DK	cooldude127: use ERC in emacs, you could test while chatting :)
14:55	cooldude127	that's true
14:55	cooldude127	i'm on ERC, it's lovely
14:55	Lau_of_DK	Emacs supports IRC, Email, Slime, you name it. For Vim users we have a special treat: Press dd to delete a whole line!
14:55	tWip	using irssi now (for years) but I remember zenirc being a good and very unobtrusive client for emacs
14:56	cooldude127	yeah i just started using erc like half an hour ago
14:56	tWip	I don't think it's developed any more though, as the site has last news from january 2000
14:57	cooldude127	tWip: zenirc or erc?
14:57	tWip	zenirc
14:57	Lau_of_DK	k, it was just a quick mention to taunt the Vim users once again, lets get back to Clojure
14:57	cooldude127	lol
14:58	cooldude127	send to nil gets illegalargumentexceptions
14:58	tWip	nice. that means it's actually checked :)
14:58	cooldude127	wait i don't think that's all i messed up tho
14:59	cooldude127	alright it's actually a nullpointerexception
14:59	cooldude127	illegal arg is what happens when you use (x) instead of [x] in your arglist
14:59	Chouser	heh
14:59	cooldude127	we need some more descriptive errors
15:00	Chousuke	definitely
15:01	Lau_of_DK	What could be more descriptive than "Agent has errors" ?
15:01	Chousuke	it's rather annoying to get an exception in some function and then it doesn't even tell me which one or where, because it happened to be an anonymous one defined in a let :(
15:01	sohail	cooldude127, there is a IRC client with emacs proper now
15:02	sohail	(not erc, iirc)
15:02	cooldude127	my complaint is that i could use something like syntax error for when i use (x) instead of [x]
15:02	cooldude127	sohail: since what version?
15:02	cooldude127	idk erc is making me happy right now
15:03	sohail	cooldude127, maybe since 22? I forget
15:03	cooldude127	lol
15:03	cooldude127	i'm on cvs actually so if it's there, i have itt
15:04	cooldude127	i believe there's rcirc or something
15:04	chousukerc	hi
15:04	chousukerc	had to try :P
15:04	cooldude127	but apparently erc was more featureful
15:04	cooldude127	try what?
15:04	chousukerc	Though I'm pretty sure I can't replace irssi with erc
15:04	chousukerc	erc
15:05	cooldude127	oh
15:05	cooldude127	irssi confused the hell out of me when i tried it
15:05	Lau_of_DK	Guys
15:05	Lau_of_DK	Get back to Clojure :)
15:05	cooldude127	NEVER
15:06	Chousuke	whoops
15:07	Chousuke	I disabled erc-mode by accident
15:07	cooldude127	lol
15:07	Chousuke	and now I can't IRC
15:07	cooldude127	can't turn it back on?
15:07	cooldude127	M-x erc-mode ?
15:07	Chousuke	I have no idea how.
15:08	Chousuke	there is no such command
15:08	cooldude127	ahh how did it get disabled?
15:08	gnuvince	C-x C-c irssi <Ret>
15:08	Chousuke	I didn't turn it off, I just enabled clojure-mode and erc stuff was replaced.
15:08	cooldude127	oh no
15:08	cooldude127	damn major modes
15:08	cooldude127	gnuvince: thanks for your suggestion ;)
15:08	gnuvince	cooldude127: any time :)
15:09	gnuvince	It worked well enough, but I prefer irssi
15:10	Chousuke	I'll stick with irssi :p
15:10	cooldude127	yeah well i'm switching from colloquy
15:10	MarkVolkmann	I'm trying to understand what assoc does, but I don't understand the doc for it. Can someone show me a simple example?
15:10	rhickey	user=> (assoc {:a 1} :b 2)
15:10	rhickey	{:b 2, :a
15:11	rhickey	{:b 2, :a 1}
15:11	cooldude127	assoc gives you a new map or vector with the given key and value in it
15:11	cooldude127	like in rhickeys example
15:11	Chousuke	it associates a value with an associative container. the doc says map but it works with vectors too :p
15:11	Lau_of_DK	Can I send-off agents with a timeout value ?
15:12	cooldude127	user> (assoc [1 2 3] 2 1)
15:12	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: no
15:12	cooldude127	[1 2 1]
15:12	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: timeout of what? How long it can be stalled in the queue before giving up/
15:13	Lau_of_DK	Chouser: Something like that. I want it to begin to pull data of the web, but if has not succeeded in 5 seconds, to close the call and note a failure
15:13	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: if you are using a blocking API, it probably has a timeout of its own
15:14	Lau_of_DK	All Im using is agents, and then stream-reading a URL
15:17	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: it's the stream-reading that's likely blocking if there's a problem, so that's what probably need to have a timeout.
15:17	Lau_of_DK	Chouser: yea I imagine your right. It would just be so easy if Clojure itself could kill the thread half-way through if a limit was exceeded
15:19	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: killing threads is not going to happen - you have to start wanting something else :)
15:19	Chouser	The blocking call probably has a way to report whether it succeeded vs. timed out, so then you can handle that condition appropriately.
15:20	askentasken	is it one index 2 indeces or indexes?
15:20	Chousuke	indices
15:20	drewc	indices
15:20	Chousuke	indexes works too I suppose.
15:21	krukow	I was just looking through the Clojure Java sources to learn more. I have a couple of questions...
15:21	drewc	i would also accept indexes
15:21	drewc	:)
15:21	krukow	: 1) I think there is a bug in ASeq.java the containsAll method -- it seems to implement containsSome?
15:22	Lau_of_DK	rhickey, Chouser: Thanks .)
15:23	krukow	2) I'm seeing a lot of classes that have up to 20 copies of the same method taking from one to 20 parameters; the last of which is a var-args-param. I guess it is an optimization?
15:24	cooldude127	krukow: that's most likely correct
15:24	krukow	indices, I think is the correct word ;-)
15:24	cooldude127	yes
15:24	Chouser	krukow: re 2) yes, I think that allows direct one-step calls that can be inlined by the JVM well.
15:25	cooldude127	21 parameters can suck it up
15:25	cooldude127	lol
15:25	Chouser	well, they still work, just not quite as fast.
15:25	Chouser	have to create an array object and fill it out.
15:25	cooldude127	exactly
15:25	cooldude127	boo arrays
15:25	hiredman	use reduce instead of apply :P
15:25	krukow	yeah ;-) I think 10 should have been enough, though ;-)
15:26	Chouser	oh, sorry, I didn't know precisely what algorithm you meant by "suck it up" :-)
15:26	cooldude127	lol
15:26	cooldude127	i think the most i've ever used was like 5 maybe
15:27	askentasken	http://paste.lisp.org/display/70588
15:28	askentasken	isnt it pasting direclty to here anymore?
15:28	sohail	drewc, for some reason I can't post to google groups through gmane so I vote for clojr :-)
15:28	askentasken	anyway, theres my tictactoe, a little upgraded
15:28	hiredman	the bot seems to be in and out
15:28	MarkVolkmann	Thanks for the assoc examples! I've got it now.
15:29	rhickey	hiredman: apply is efficient too, it does not use an array - feeds the seq right to applyTo
15:29	drewc	sohail: i'm leaning toward clojr myself.
15:29	Chouser	askentasken: lookin good. I think you could use (some ...) instead of (> (count (filter ...)) 0)
15:29	sohail	drewc, it takes some getting used to
15:30	Chouser	isn't "clojr" pronounced the same as "clojure"?
15:30	hiredman	rhickey: good to know
15:30	cooldude127	Chouser: yeah that is a concern
15:31	MarkVolkmann	Is there a deeper meaning to the name than the word "closure" with the "s" replaced by a "j" for Java?
15:31	Chouser	askentasken: and "not-any?" for the (= 0 (count ...)
15:31	abrooks	Chouser: No. You're supposed to silently clench your jaw when saying "clojr".
15:31	Chouser	abrooks: ah, got it. thanks.
15:31	sohail	Chouser, you have to say clojr while hugging people
15:31	askentasken	some retrns nil
15:31	sohail	Maybe clojure-projects.org would be the best thing
15:31	askentasken	does nil test as false?
15:31	abrooks	Too bad forj is already Google un-virginal. I liked forj.
15:32	Chouser	askentasken: yes
15:32	Chouser	askentasken: nil and false are the only things that act like false in a boolean context.
15:33	Chouser	askentasken: sweet use of a keyword as your dispatch fn!
15:33	rhickey	krukow: containsAll is fixed
15:34	drewc	Chouser: pronunciation aside, i'm looking at clojr.net, which is different enough from clojure.org, and it's a cool url imo! :)
15:35	rhickey	drewc: that wouldn't be my preference as it has the same pronunciation
15:35	sohail	clojects is hard to pronounce imo
15:36	Pupeno	drewc: hi there!
15:37	drewc	rhickey: ok, you have veto.
15:37	askentasken	http://paste.lisp.org/display/70589
15:37	askentasken	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No method for dispatch value: null
15:37	rhickey	sohail: like projects, or clozhects
15:37	AWizzArd	rhickey: how close is the 1.0 realease away? Do you think it might happen this year?
15:37	sohail	rhickey, might be me, but it doesn't roll off the tongue too easily
15:38	askentasken	sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt
15:38	rhickey	AWizzArd: I hope so
15:38	askentasken	are any and not-any added in newer versions?
15:38	drewc	projecture.net is the other most popular choice. rhickey?
15:38	Chouser	AWizzArd: if he misses 2008, he's going to call in 2.0
15:38	Chouser	rhickey: right? :-)
15:38	rhickey	drewc: projecture fine by me
15:38	kotarak	anything with clo in front should not have a hard break between the syllables. Klo in german has a different meaning... So pronounciation could lead to strange associations.
15:39	AWizzArd	Would be nice in 08 although I personally think it would still be okay for next year. Its API now seems to be stable for the coming time.
15:39	Chouser	askentasken: "not-any?" has a question mark
15:39	askentasken	Chouser: askentasken: sweet use of a keyword as your dispatch fn! ironic there? whic exactly do you mean?
15:39	rhickey	Chouser: not calendar year, year from release
15:39	Chouser	rhickey: ah. so that gives you 'til Oct 2009?
15:39	rhickey	Chouser: yup
15:39	Chouser	askentasken: honest, not ironic. I like it!
15:40	Pupeno	I remember there was a method to mark public functions in a namespace or something like that. Kind-of like defining an API. Am I remembering wrong?
15:40	drewc	Pupeno: hey, long time no see!
15:40	Chouser	Pupeno: use defn- to define a private function
15:40	kotarak	Pupeno: you can use defn- for private functions
15:40	AWizzArd	:-)
15:41	Pupeno	Chouser, kotarak: Oh! that was it. Thanks.
15:41	MarkVolkmann	Where can I find documentation on clojure-contrib? My googling attempts have failed to find anything but the code. Maybe I just need to look at that.
15:42	Pupeno	drewc: how are you?
15:42	Chouser	MarkVolkmann: yeah, there's about it. Many of the .clj files have examples at the end.
15:43	Chouser	MarkVolkmann: you may be able to dig up some examples in the IRC log or google group.
15:43	drewc	Pupeno: things are good. Work is steady and interesting, and life on the water is wonderful... how are things with you?
15:44	Pupeno	drewc: life on the water?
15:45	Pupeno	drewc: I'm fine, thanks.
15:45	Chousuke	AWizzArd: here's a version of your game that works on recent versions http://pastebin.com/f115b1f06 (contains spoilers!)
15:45	Lau_of_DK	Is there something similar to fork, when I just want to send-off a function to another thread, like when calling from UI ?
15:46	drewc	Pupeno: i moved on board a sailboat early this year.
15:46	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: what's wrong with "send-off"?
15:46	AWizzArd	Chouser: my game?
15:46	Chousuke	er
15:47	Chousuke	I meant askentasken :)
15:47	AWizzArd	ic
15:47	Lau_of_DK	Chouser: nothing, except it requires an agent, which I was looking to avoid
15:47	Pupeno	drewc: you moved?
15:47	drewr	drewc: Are you sailing right now?
15:49	askentasken	Chouser: but where? i odnt even know what u mean
15:50	drewc	Pupeno: well, threw away most of my stuff and climbed on is more accurate, but yeah, i have no place on land.
15:50	drewc	drewr: tied comfortably to the dock :)
15:51	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: if you don't want an agent, you'll have to deal with Thread directly.
15:52	Pupeno	drewc: wow!
15:52	Lau_of_DK	Chouser: is this way too dumb? (defmacro async
15:52	Lau_of_DK	[expr]
15:52	Lau_of_DK	`(send-off (agent 0) ~expr))
15:52	Lau_of_DK
15:52	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: (.run (Thread. #(prn "hi")))
15:52	Pupeno	drewc: do you have any pictures?
15:53	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: (agent 0) is fine, or (agent nil). But expr has to be a fn of at least 1 arg.
15:53	Lau_of_DK	Why ?
15:53	Lau_of_DK	:)
15:53	drewc	Pupeno: you bet. I have 2 boats .. the smaller one i live on, they larger is up on the boat yard being repaired.
15:54	Lau_of_DK	Chouser: Why as in: Why not 0 args?
15:54	Chouser	askentasken: you asked if "not-any" is added in a newer Clojure. I'm saying it's in older versions of Clojure, but it's name is "not-any?"
15:54	drewc	Pupeno: http://versions.tech.coop/kanu.jpg <-- smaller on (29th LOA)
15:54	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: send and send-off always pass in the agent as the first arg
15:54	askentasken	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No method for dispatch value: null
15:55	askentasken	so it is an error in the multimethods right?
15:55	Lau_of_DK	oh....
15:55	cooldude127	Lau_of_DK: that is, the state of the agent
15:55	drewc	Pupeno: http://versions.tech.coop/cestlavie.jpg <--- and the ship herself (50ft LOA).
15:55	Lau_of_DK	Chouser: now Im using this: (.run (Thread. #(start-stress-test)))
15:55	Lau_of_DK	(JOptionPane/showMessageDialog nil "Agents dispatched")), the JOptionP is never shown - how come?
15:56	cooldude127	not the agent itself
15:56	wwmorgan	asktentaksken: you need to pass a map into the multimethod that has the appropriate key
15:56	Pupeno	drewc: that's amazing. Do you live by yourself there?
15:56	askentasken	Chouser : ok but you said nice use of, where i use what?
15:57	Chouser	cooldude127: oh, right, sorry.
15:57	drewc	Pupeno: no, my wife is with me, and her daughter stays sometimes... and 3 ferrets and a bird.
15:58	Lau_of_DK	Does anybody know how I can kill Slime really quickly, without closing Emacs?
15:58	Pupeno	And I complain because my place is so small...
15:58	Pupeno	drewc: how do you get on-line?
15:58	Chouser	drewc, Pupeno: I don't mean to be rude, but could you guys take this elsewhere?
15:58	drewc	Chouser: of course, sorry 'bout that!
15:59	Pupeno	Chouser: sorry!
15:59	Chouser	np. I wouldn't have said anything except the channel is so busy at the moment.
16:00	Chouser	askentasken: I meant (defmulti move :player) <-- using :player as your dispatch function.
16:00	Chousuke	askentasken: you're calling (move (:board player)) there!
16:00	Chousuke	askentasken: it'll give you an error since you don't have a method for boards :P
16:01	Chousuke	askentasken: also: instead of recursive calls, use (recur ...)
16:01	Lau_of_DK	Guys, if I want agent smith to go into the GC once his func completes, shouldnt this fit the bill? (map #(send-off % stress-task)
16:01	Lau_of_DK	(map agent
16:01	Lau_of_DK	(replicate (get$ :count-of-agents) 0))))
16:01	duck1123	I'm writing some C++ code for school. I modified a function and had to resist the urge to hit C-M-x
16:01	Lau_of_DK	(get$ :cou..) = 50
16:04	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: send-off returns the agent, so your top-level map there will return a lazy-seq of agents.
16:04	Lau_of_DK	but by that time, they will all be running right Mr. Houser ?
16:04	Chouser	if you put that seq in var, you'll not get any agents at all: (def agents (map...))
16:05	Chouser	but if you wrap that map in a dorun, and you'll start all the agents but they should be GC'd as they complete.
16:06	Lau_of_DK	Alright, so what youre saying is. I gotta dorun ?
16:06	Chouser	I'm saying that's one solution, yes.
16:06	hiredman	map is lazy, so the the send-off doesn't happen until you walk the list somehow
16:06	Lau_of_DK	Houser, I thank thee
16:08	Lau_of_DK	oh man
16:08	Lau_of_DK	chock
16:08	Lau_of_DK	It started, before I could look around it had many over 4000 hits on my webserver
16:09	askentasken	oh using player, player isnt a builtin? anyway that was Chousuke who inspired me
16:09	askentasken	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No method for dispatch value: null
16:10	Chousuke	askentasken: did you fix the (move (:board player)) bug? :P
16:10	askentasken	(move (player :board)))))
16:10	askentasken	?
16:10	askentasken	but i think isee it shouldnt work at all
16:10	askentasken	it is the work soemtimes i dont get
16:11	Chousuke	you want just (move player)
16:11	Chousuke	note, player != :player
16:11	wwmorgan	askentasken: a keyword acts as a function from associative things, but if you pass a non-associative thing to a keyword, it just returns nil instead of raising an error
16:12	askentasken	i see now
16:14	askentasken	(assoc (player :board) mov 1)
16:14	askentasken	plaer :board or :board player?
16:14	Chousuke	:board player
16:14	Chousuke	actually
16:14	Chousuke	either works, since player is a map
16:14	Chousuke	maps are functions of their keys, and keywords are functions of maps :)
16:15	Chousuke	very powerful, but can be confusing
16:17	Chousuke	once you get that sorted: in your play-game function it would be easier to just handle one turn at a time (instead of both the computer's and the player's)
16:28	Chousuke	This tic-tac-toe thingy actually seems to be pretty good practice, since it has "state" (the board) and there's even use for multimethods.
16:28	askentasken	(defn human [coll] {:player <<--- if that what u mean tis ro the example at the clojure homepage
16:29	askentasken	Chousuke: yes i was thinking the same
16:29	Chousuke	no I mean in the play-game function
16:29	askentasken	i will prob make a GUI and min-max-algorithm later
16:29	Chousuke	where you do stuff like (let [newer_board (move (_second new_board))] ...)
16:29	Chousuke	when you mean (move _second)
16:30	Chousuke	and everywhere else too you make the same mistake.
16:30	Chousuke	'move takes a player, not a board :)
16:31	Chousuke	and a player is a map that has two keys, :player and :board
16:31	AWizzArd	yes, although doseq lets the reader see that you are doing something imperative
16:31	AWizzArd	wrong channel
16:32	wwmorgan	I think move should take a player key and a board
16:32	Chousuke	wwmorgan: either works
16:32	wwmorgan	for a player to have a board doesn't really make sense
16:32	Chousuke	a single-argument move is easier to extend
16:32	Chousuke	wwmorgan: well, you could call it game-state then :)
16:33	wwmorgan	yeah. it makes the multimethod easier to define too
16:33	Chousuke	with :player being the player whose turn it is
16:33	askentasken	it would clear things up because im so confused over this now
16:33	Chousuke	askentasken: what exactly is confusing you?
16:33	Chousuke	perhaps the use of :player as a function?
16:34	Chouser	AWizzArd: you're talking about Clojure in another channel/
16:34	Chouser	?
16:34	AWizzArd	Chouser: in private
16:34	Chousuke	remember: multimethods decide which method to call based on the "return value" of the dispatch function (":player") on the arguments its called with (in this case player)
16:35	Chousuke	askentasken: so, when you call (move player), behind the scenes clojure calls (:player player), which returns either :Human or :Computer
16:36	Chousuke	askentasken: and then clojure knows which method to run.
16:36	askentasken	http://paste.lisp.org/display/70595 </ c4rrent vers56n
16:36	Lau_of_DK	Guys - I get alot of these "Reflection warning: xyz cannot be resolved", can I code in a way that doesnt produce all this warnings?
16:37	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: (set! warn-on-reflection false)
16:37	Lau_of_DK	Chouser: so its not my home-grown coding style?
16:37	albino	heh, that advice seems to be coming out daily, the reflection one I mean
16:37	askentasken	WHY 5S 5T EVEN W6R25N AT A33
16:37	duck1123	denial is the best debugging policy
16:37	askentasken	why is it even workin at all?
16:38	Chousuke	askentasken: how far does it work?
16:39	Chousuke	oh wait! your play-game is correct now. I just got confused by your functions
16:39	Chousuke	and move methods are okay too.
16:40	Chousuke	those (pr _first) and (pr _second) don't make much sense though :)
16:44	wwmorgan	askentasken: your has-winner? is a cool trick, but it introduces coupling with the implementation of move. Instead, you could fill the board with :com and :player, and use every? to return a winner, or nil if there is none yet.
16:48	wwmorgan	then you can refactor move like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/70574#4
16:50	Lau_of_DK	If I call (def xyz zyx) in a defn, is it still globally declared?
16:50	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: yes, defs are global
16:50	Lau_of_DK	thanks
16:51	Chousuke	askentasken: http://paste.lisp.org/display/70595#1
16:55	askentasken	h cond yes
16:55	Chousuke	the :else there is not special syntax btw. it's just something that has a true value :)
16:56	Chousuke	kind of like having no "else" at all and resorting to else if (true) { ... } :P
16:58	Chousuke	except that in most non-lisp languages, that would be a weird thing to do.
17:01	hiredman	I think with clojure the main problem there is "true" is not a fn
17:02	Chousuke	well you could use true too :/
17:02	hiredman	but I think the reader would accept that, and you would knock it into shape with a macro
17:02	Chousuke	what?
17:03	hiredman	Chousuke: if you wanted to use that syntax in clojure :P
17:04	Chousuke	ah, righ.
17:04	Chousuke	well who would
17:04	Chousuke	not me.
17:05	Chousuke	better just move the parentheses around a bit
17:10	Lau_of_DK	We have (reduce max seq) but do we have something like (reduce average seq) ?
17:11	wwmorgan	Lau_of_DK: arithmetic or geometric mean?
17:11	hiredman	erm
17:11	Lau_of_DK	arith
17:11	hiredman	just reduce with + then / by (count seq)
17:11	hiredman	oh
17:13	wwmorgan	you can't do that with just a reduce
17:13	hiredman	you could
17:13	hiredman	but I don't think you could cleanly
17:14	hiredman	but my math is not very good
17:14	wwmorgan	(reduce hypothetic-fn [100]) => 100 and (reduce (hypothetic-fn [100 100 100]) => 100
17:14	wwmorgan	but tack an extra element on to each list and the behavior changes
17:15	Lau_of_DK	so (/ (reduce + seq) (count seq)) is my best bet
17:16	hiredman	unless there is some other method of calculating the arithmetic mean that doesn't need to know how many numbers there are
17:17	Lau_of_DK	hmm
17:20	Lau_of_DK	Anyway, I gotta hit the sack, thanks to everyone for answering so many questions tonight. I actually have a full blown http benchmarker running now :)
17:22	askentasken	is reduce+ / count O(n) because of laziness?
17:23	Chousuke	reduce is always O(n). count (at least after reduce) should be O(1)
17:23	wwmorgan	laziness is irrelevant there as neither reduce nor count is lazy
17:23	askentasken	ah count is O(n)
17:24	askentasken	what i mean was, if count ws O(n) and reduce O(n) would laziness keep it O(n) instead of O(n) * 2?
17:24	askentasken	ok reduce is not lazy
17:25	Chousuke	count is O(1) for lists and vectors and maps. don't know how it behaves for arbitrary seqs
17:25	hiredman	the thing to remember is seqs != lists
17:25	wwmorgan	yeah reduce looks like it could be lazy at first, but when you think about it it's only returning one value
17:34	sohail	hey drewc I like clojets (for source code coming out of the closets!) :-)
17:35	drewc	sohail: too late, i just registered projecture.net :)
17:35	sohail	damn
17:35	duck1123	that was good too
17:36	duck1123	clojets is a good name, but it sounds like a name for something else
17:36	wwmorgan	my new hot tub has clojets in it
17:36	duck1123	perhaps wigits made in clojure
17:37	pjb3	So this doesn't work anymore: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming#Invoking_Clojure_from_Java
17:37	sohail	fourleafclojure has a ring to it too
17:37	pjb3	Anyone know how to do that now?
17:40	duck1123	I've been trying to think what a good name for a build system in Clojure would be. I like Jake, but it's too bad that Cl is also common lisp
17:40	hiredman	dejure
17:41	hiredman	"well you have to use it, it's the dejure build system"
17:41	danlei`	=)
17:41	hiredman	er
17:41	hiredman	I guess it would be, "build system dejure"
17:41	duck1123	hiredman: that's good
17:43	hiredman	I am not sure, I hear it's kind of, you know, french
17:43	danlei`	dejure?
17:43	danlei`	that would be latin
17:43	kotarak	de jour
17:44	danlei`	jus = law
17:44	wwmorgan	soup du jour
17:45	wwmorgan	the soup of the law
17:53	Chouser	pjb3: use just "ns" instead of "clojure/ns"
17:54	pjb3	the java part doesn't work
17:54	Chouser	Hm, I just built and ran it.
17:54	Chouser	What error are you getting?
17:56	pjb3	nevermind, it was some problem with my IDE, works now
17:56	Chouser	great.
17:56	pjb3	thanks
17:58	pjb3	hmm....cool: System.out.println(RT.var("clojure.core", "+").invoke(1, 2));
17:59	cooldude127	pjb3: is that doing "(println (+ 1 2))" from the java side?
18:00	pjb3	cooldude127: yeah, pretty much
18:00	hiredman	has any one made a nice jar that you click on and up pops a repl window?
18:00	pjb3	you get the "+" function and then invoke it
18:00	cooldude127	yup
18:01	pjb3	hiredman: I'm actually trying to see if I can get a REPL in an Applet, thinking it probably won't work due to classloader/security BS
18:01	hiredman	I have one in some java terminal thing, but it doesn't do copy and paste
18:02	Chouser	pjb3: I've seen a repl in an applet (I think) -- the applet has to be signed, and the user has to click through a permission dialog.
18:02	Chouser	pjb3: a non-repl clojure applet should be doable now with AOT, but I don't know that anybody's tried.
18:02	pjb3	Chouser: well if you if have a link, you could save me the trouble
18:03	pjb3	I'm thinking we should have a REPL on clojure.org
18:03	pjb3	so people could just try it out right there
18:03	rhickey	Chouser: actually not, as a repl needs to do code gen, and thus needs a classloader
18:03	Chouser	pjb3: I don't, and i've got to run. Google is your friend!
18:03	pjb3	rhickey: what do you think of that?
18:04	rhickey	clojure.org is just a spot on wikispaces, I have no hosting for Clojure
18:04	pjb3	ah, well, we could find some place to stick the .class/.jar file
18:05	rhickey	pjb3: that's easy, if it's an applet
18:05	pjb3	yeah, so I'm just trying to figure out how to make an applet that has a REPL
18:05	pjb3	If I do, we'll find some place to host it
18:06	ole2	Hello, I've never been here bevor, just clicking at clojure.org at irc.
18:06	ole2	And it opened that window, wow
18:06	rhickey	ole2: welcome
18:06	ole2	:)
18:06	drewc	pjb3: I can offer you cheap hosting for clojure projects.. and actually a REPL i can host at projecture.net for free i'm sure. :)
18:07	pjb3	drewc: cool, I'll let you know if I get it working
18:10	ole2	O.K. i've installed java, jre, jdk, whatever, and got finally some kind of repl. But is there an ide? Name-completion?
18:11	duck1123	personally, I would like to see a ajax interface to a remote repl
18:11	drewc	ole2: i recommend using SLIME personally.
18:11	wwmorgan	ole2: enclojure for netbeans is pretty good
18:11	hiredman	I think the three main editors people use are emacs, vim, netbeans
18:11	pjb3	ole2: http://enclojure.org/Completion.html
18:12	hiredman	I use vim myself with some thing that lets me send chunks of clojure to a repl
18:12	hiredman	slime.vim? I dunno
18:13	duck1123	Gorilla?
18:13	ole2	thank you, i tried to install netbeans, but it takes several minute to startup, and the enclojure plugin did not work.
18:13	hiredman	duck1123: nah, I haven't used gorilla or chimp yet
18:13	ole2	I'm not a java guy, and i can not figure this out.
18:14	wwmorgan	ole2: what behavior did you get out of the enclojure plugin?
18:14	duck1123	I tried enclojure, was pretty nice, but I'm too much of an emacs guy now to use anything else
18:14	drewc	I use SLIME because it's what i know, and it's made for Lisp.
18:14	pjb3	I tried enclojure a while ago, couldn't get it to work
18:15	pjb3	Guess I'll try again now
18:15	ole2	Well, I installed netbeans, all-package, jdk, takes several minutes to startup, and sayes some javamodules are missing.
18:15	ole2	Maybe i should ask at a java channel
18:15	ole2	But thanks for the help
18:16	ole2	O.K. You are all emacs guy's. So my next questions.
18:16	hiredman	<-- VIM
18:16	ole2	:)
18:17	hiredman	but yeah, everyone else
18:17	duck1123	I just wish emacs had a way to detect fn names
18:17	ole2	I have a working emacs/slime/sbcl/clisp blah installation. How do i get clojure to work with that
18:17	rhickey	ole2: there's also #enclojure for enclojure-specific qs
18:17	ole2	O.K. Thank you.
18:18	duck1123	ole2: did you try the code on the wiki?
18:18	duck1123	there are instructions on how to set up multiple lisp implementations
18:24	ole2	duck1123: thank you for the pointer. I did not look carefully. I think i could figure it out now. (And live on with this s*** editor :)
18:24	cooldude127	ole2: you dissin emacs?
18:24	duck1123	clojure + swank is difficult to get right some times
18:24	duck1123	you have to load things in the right order
18:24	cooldude127	idk i thought it was pretty easy to set up but i already had slime working
18:25	cooldude127	i was just adding clojure love
18:25	cooldude127	oh wait so was ole2
18:25	duck1123	I kept getting hit with the progn problem
18:26	cooldude127	what problem is that?
18:31	cooldude127	hagman appears to be having some issues
18:32	duck1123	you get the error that progn isn't a valid function
18:32	duck1123	it happens when you don't load things in the right order
18:32	ole2	Thanks for your patients, I load slime but got the java expection "Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: clojure/lang/Repl"
18:32	cooldude127	it appears that you don't have it setup to load the clojure jar right
18:32	ole2	I have no idea what that means
18:33	cooldude127	cuz it can't find clojure's stuff
18:34	duck1123	(setq swank-clojure-jar-path (concat clojure-path "clojure.jar"))
18:35	cooldude127	what's clojure-path? does it have the final / at the end
18:36	lisppaste8	duck1123 pasted "my .emacs pick and choose to your hearts content" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70611
18:37	duck1123	admittedly not the best setup, but it works for me
18:37	cooldude127	i'll paste my clojure stuff as well
18:38	ole2	I tried to rearange all the stuff you say, but it still yields the same error
18:38	lisppaste8	cooldude127 pasted "my clojure.el file" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70612
18:39	cooldude127	i use a script with it
18:39	cooldude127	i should probably do the fun task of updating clojure and swank-clojure
18:41	duck1123	I haven't gotten around to it because Compojure hasn't been updated yet, and that's the only thing I use atm
18:41	cooldude127	how is compojure?
18:41	cooldude127	i haven't checked it out yet
18:42	duck1123	pretty good. takes some getting used to, and there are things I wish were different, but it works
18:42	cooldude127	cool
18:43	cooldude127	luckily i haven't really written too much significant code with clojure yet, so any big changes will just get used in new code and old code will be forgotten
18:44	duck1123	so has anyone written a BNF for Clojure yet?
18:44	duck1123	I'm wondering if I need to learn it to scratch my itch
18:44	cooldude127	holy shit swank clojure changed since i last updated
18:45	duck1123	when did you last download?
18:45	cooldude127	that's a damn good question
18:46	cooldude127	not really sure
18:46	ole2	i did not get it, what am i doing wrong http://paste.lisp.org/display/70613.
18:46	ole2	It's my .emacs
18:46	cooldude127	somebody help me: swank-clojure uses autoloads, so what do i do to load the new changes without quitting emacs and killing irc
18:47	danlarkin	duck1123: well kotarak's got a parser combinator library... it's a bit outdated at this point, though. He promises me he'll have some time to update it soon though :)
18:48	duck1123	cooldude127: M-: (require 'swank-clojure) ?
18:48	danlei	cooldude127: M-x load-file
18:49	duck1123	danlarkin: do you know where it's at?
18:50	danlarkin	duck1123: http://kotka.de/projects/clojure/parser.html
18:51	cooldude127	ole2: your jar-path needs to have the actual jar, not just the dir
18:51	cooldude127	danlei: that's what worked, require didn't actually reload it i think
18:54	ole2	cooldude127: Hey, it worked. Thank you. (it throw's exeptions but i can fugure them out myself). Thank you for take a look at it.
18:54	cooldude127	no problem. i didn't notice at first but it just caught my eye
18:56	cooldude127	clojure and swank-clojure update successful
18:56	cooldude127	slime is still old, from late october
18:56	cooldude127	not that old i guess
19:00	ole2	Thank you all for the help! I will try to help someone myself as you did. Nice social networking thing you have here. Glueck auf! Take care!
19:02	danlarkin	duck1123: if you improve upon his Parser library let me know, I want to use it for my json decoder
19:36	cooldude127	don't you just love it when emacs crashes and you have NO IDEA cuz os x didn't give you a clue?
19:38	gnuvince_	;)
19:38	wwmorgan	otoh, enclojure crashes with loud and cryptic error messages
19:39	wwmorgan	an error in my user.clj manifested itself as a couldn't connect to socket exception
19:45	cooldude127	gnuvince_: i'm in no way against vim, it just doesn't fit for me
19:45	cooldude127	i actually want to like it
19:45	cooldude127	but i can't make it stick
19:45	gnuvince_	cooldude127: fair enough. Different people, different minds, different tastes, different editors :)
19:47	cooldude127	gnuvince_: i think the biggest thing is i use the colemak keyboard layout, and that really messes up vim's navigation and stuff
19:47	sohail	cooldude127, emacs never crashed for me except when I used erc
19:47	cooldude127	i think matlab was the problem here
19:47	cooldude127	matlab crashed too, and os x just didn't tell me that emacs went with it
19:51	Chousuke	I'm actually starting to like emacs
19:51	Chousuke	might be because I found vimpulse. which allows vim-style editing :P
19:51	cooldude127	lol
19:51	cooldude127	funny that the vim-style editing is what prevented me from doing vim
19:51	walters	wwmorgan: probably starts clojure as a separate process expecting to connect to it over a socket, but the external process fails on errors in user.clj
19:52	walters	of course local apps talking to each other over TCP sockets is terribly broken, unfortunately Java doesn't expose local domain sockets
19:52	wwmorgan	walters: that's exactly it
19:52	Chousuke	Well I really don't like the 283490893 key combinations emacs has. I can remember at most a few of them
19:52	gnuvince_	I needed to stop using Emacs after two years because the pain it caused me were just getting unbearable.
19:53	duck1123	there's alway's M-x
19:53	cooldude127	gnuvince_: even remapping caps lock to control? does that help?
19:53	cooldude127	Chousuke: i don't know most of them
19:53	cooldude127	just the ones i constantly use
19:53	Chousuke	duck1123: I like how in vim you can "combine" commands
19:54	duck1123	We're learning vi in my linux fundamentals class
19:54	duck1123	I hate it
19:54	gnuvince_	cooldude127: didn't help.
19:54	gnuvince_	cooldude127: so I went back to vim
19:54	gnuvince_	(which I had left for Emacs)
19:55	cooldude127	oh
19:55	Chousuke	duck1123: like, d for delete, % to skip to the matching paren, d% for delete until matching pare
19:55	Chousuke	stuff like that
19:55	cooldude127	yeah i did like that
19:55	cooldude127	it wasn't enough for me
19:55	gnuvince_	it all depends on how you work (though I guess the editor you have affects how you think you want to work)
19:56	duck1123	that was kinda cool. most of the caommands in emacs have C-u arguments that do something similar. I never use them
19:56	gnuvince_	I use the type of commands Chousuke mentioned a hundred times a day.
19:56	Chousuke	If I can get most of that while still using emacs, well, yay. (I think emacs as an editor is superior, controlling it is just a pain)
19:56	cooldude127	yeah
19:57	danlei	emacs is the better os =)
19:57	cooldude127	plus i can't wrap my head around vimscript
19:57	cooldude127	emacs-lisp is flawed, but makes more sense to me
19:57	duck1123	there's viper
19:57	cooldude127	what's viper?
19:57	danlei	vi emulation-mode
19:57	Chousuke	duck1123: yeah, that's what I'm using :)
19:57	duck1123	gives all the vi bindings in emacs
19:58	Chousuke	my emacs setup is really something
19:58	gnuvince_	Yeah, vimscript sucks ass.
19:58	cooldude127	i've done a lot of work on making my emacs setup easily tweakable
19:58	Chousuke	it's one part vi, one part emacs, and one part mac-app
19:58	gnuvince_	Lot of people wish Bram would just leave it only for configuration and switch to something more "proper" like Python for actual plugins.
19:59	cooldude127	everything i add goes in a new file to be loaded from .emacs
19:59	duck1123	my init.el file has gotten way too large
19:59	Chousuke	it's not awesome at being any of the three, but it just happens to be good enough at all of them to make me feel comfortable :P
19:59	danlei	duck1123: i once lost mine
20:00	lisppaste8	cooldude127 pasted "my .emacs" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70620
20:00	cooldude127	mines on github actually
20:00	duck1123	I'm sitting at 730 lines
20:00	duck1123	not counting customized vars or keybindings
20:01	cooldude127	i keep all my dotfiles in a git repo
20:01	duck1123	I've been planning on putting mine on github, but I accidentally checked in my twitter password and I haven't gotten around to editing my history to remove it
20:01	cooldude127	lol
20:01	Chousuke	duck1123: Keep at it, soon you'll have a working text editor implementation!
20:02	cooldude127	i was really happy when i reduced my set of files to load to a list of symbols instead of a bunch of load calls
20:04	cooldude127	brb, trying out my updated emacs-cvs
20:06	cooldude127	ok well the new emacs did not work
20:06	cooldude127	and i don't feel like figuring out why
20:06	duck1123	cooldude127: do you actually use CVS or the git mirror?
20:07	cooldude127	cvs
20:07	cooldude127	it couldn't load cuz of some DOC file it couldn't find
20:08	duck1123	but it built before?
20:08	cooldude127	yeah
20:09	cooldude127	i'm running an older cvs one right now to chat
20:10	duck1123	I'm doing a `mr update` to see what's changed since this morning
20:11	cooldude127	Cannot open doc string file "/Users/mattmoriarity/usr/src/emacs/nextstep/Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/etc/DOC-23.0.60.2"
20:11	cooldude127	is the error
20:26	duck1123	took forever, but built with no errors. sorry
20:27	cooldude127	mine didn't take much time
20:27	cooldude127	maybe i should clean first
20:30	cooldude127	ok the build was still fast
20:30	cooldude127	duck1123: what platform are you on?
20:32	cooldude127	SWEET!
20:32	cooldude127	yeah cleaning helped
20:32	cooldude127	brb
20:34	larrytheliquid	is there a version of rest that returns an empty list instead of nil when empty?
20:35	jtoy	larrytheliquid: i dont think so
20:35	Drakeson	does (a b c d e f g) -> ((a b c) (d e f) (g)) have a name?
20:35	cooldude127	and we're back with an up-to-date emacs :)
20:35	jtoy	larrytheliquid: but im sure you can do a macro or whatever
20:35	larrytheliquid	jtoy: ya np
20:35	danlarkin	Drakeson: partition
20:36	cooldude127	Drakeson: that's partition i think
20:36	cooldude127	damnit danlarkin
20:36	Drakeson	thanks :)
20:36	danlarkin	in like flint
21:26	rzezeski	just out of curiosity...how long has everyone here been using Clojure, and what do you consider your "strongest" language
21:28	Chouser	9 months. Clojure. :-)
21:28	pjb3	rzezeski: I've been using clojure off and on for almost a year
21:28	pjb3	Ruby is probably my strongest language, Java probably a close secodn
21:29	rzezeski	chouser: You really consider Clojure your strongest language? What would you consider your strongest before Clojure?
21:29	cooldude127	i'm with pjb as far as ruby and java
21:29	cooldude127	i'm pretty good with java, but i can't stand using it
21:30	rzezeski	pjb3, how much experience w/ Ruby?
21:30	cooldude127	ruby is an excellent mix between a language i'm good at and a language i actually like to use
21:30	pjb3	cooldude127: yeah, me too
21:30	pjb3	rzezeski: Couple of years now
21:31	cooldude127	yeah same here
21:31	cooldude127	i can base it off the rails version of the time
21:31	cooldude127	cuz that's what got me started
21:31	cooldude127	0.8.0
21:32	Chouser	rzezeski: At various times, C, perl, and ruby have been my strongest. I've also done a lot of JavaScript, C++, and python. But as I spend time with one language, the others fade.
21:33	rzezeski	Cool, yea I've played with Ruby here an there over the last year and a half, but Java is what I know best mainly because of work. My favorite is Haskell, which Ruby actually led me back to. Now, recently, FP has led me to Clojure and I gotta say I really like it so far.
21:34	pjb3	rzezeski: yeah, Clojure is awesome
21:34	rzezeski	Yea my coworker and I are both fans of FP. He's more of a LISP guy and he told me about Clojure. I watched the videos on blip and now I'm hooked
21:35	rzezeski	Rich really knows how to give a good presentation
21:35	cooldude127	i liked both lisp and haskell, and clojure seems like a good mix
21:35	cooldude127	rzezeski: you bet he does
21:35	gnuvince_	Clojure has less bling than Haskell, but it's extremely enjoyable.
21:35	cooldude127	i love haskell until i get into more complicated programs and i'm just lost
21:36	cooldude127	there's a fine line in haskell between unbelievably clean and disgusting
21:36	gnuvince_	I agree
21:37	cooldude127	my lisp problem is a lack of libraries
21:37	cooldude127	which clojure solves
21:37	Chouser	that's interesting. I've not given haskell the time it deserves.
21:37	rzezeski	I'm very much a Haskell novice, but I know enough to read through most stuff and have an idea. I think the pure side of Haskell is awesome, but the IO is where it gets ugly to me. I like Clojure because I can apply the FP ideas I've learned from Haskell but still have easy IO
21:37	cooldude127	exactly
21:38	gnuvince_	rzezeski: and all the Java libs :)
21:38	rzezeski	that too!
21:38	gnuvince_	I'm no fan of Java, but I definitely enjoy using a one year old language that has more libs than Perl :)
21:38	cooldude127	yeah java is a library whore
21:38	cooldude127	it has everything
21:38	cooldude127	ruby's about the same way, but not quite as much
21:39	rzezeski	What's even cooler is I actually have a chance at using Haskell at my job since it is hosted on the JVM. Right now we are using Groovy/Grails but I'm hoping to sneak in some Clojure in the future
21:39	rzezeski	Clojure*
21:39	pjb3	I actually miss some of the Ruby libraries in Java
21:39	gnuvince_	rzezeski: ditto
21:39	cooldude127	i love ruby libraries, cuz in general they tend to be really pleasant
21:40	pjb3	Is there a good HTML parser for Java like Hpricot or Nokogiri?
21:40	cooldude127	Hpricot is a GREAT example of what i'm talking about
21:40	albino	time for people to start porting
21:40	pjb3	Especially one that has a CSS engine
21:40	gnuvince_	rzezeski: I work mostly with Python and PHP at my current place of employment, but I'm pretty sure a future job will have Java in it, so it's nice to know I have something better than Java The Language at my disposal :)
21:40	cooldude127	i had to work with java last year, and i really wish i had clojure back then as mature as it is now
21:40	pjb3	cooldude127: Yeah, I would love a library for clojure where I can load an HTML doc and then query for parts of it using CSS selectors
21:41	cooldude127	it would have helped so much
21:41	cooldude127	pjb3: you and me both
21:41	gnuvince_	pjb3: I am using HTML Parser in my Clojure mini-tutorial. I don't think it has a CSS support and it definitely is less expressive than BeautifulSoup or Hpricot, but it does the job very well.
21:41	gnuvince_	pjb3: http://htmlparser.sf.net
21:41	gnuvince_	pjb3: (org.htmlparser.Parser. "http://www.xkcd.com")
21:41	cooldude127	if i had the spare time i would consider porting hpricot
21:41	cooldude127	_why would be cool :)
21:42	gnuvince_	:)
21:42	gnuvince_	I was searching for a project in my free time
21:42	gnuvince_	That could be an interesting one.
21:42	cooldude127	oh yay
21:43	pjb3	gnuvince_: once you've got a parser, how do you get parts of the document?
21:43	pjb3	extractAllNodesThatMatch(NodeFilter filter)
21:43	gnuvince_	pjb3: there are some filter classes and a visitor method
21:43	gnuvince_	Yes
21:43	pjb3	this is the kind of crap that I hate about Java libaries
21:43	cooldude127	ahh i knowww
21:43	gnuvince_	You and me both :)
21:44	gnuvince_	pjb3: but, it does provide Clojure with a solution, even if it's not the cleanest one
21:44	cooldude127	true
21:44	cooldude127	we get gui's and stuff like that basically free
21:44	Chouser	I like TagSoup + zip-filter
21:44	pjb3	Yeah, we can wrap that crap
21:45	pjb3	Looks like it has CssSelectorNodeFilter that does CSS2
21:45	cooldude127	woooo
21:45	pjb3	so you could use that in clojure to get something like jQuery
21:45	cooldude127	oh snap !
21:46	pjb3	($ "div.fancy" show)
21:46	Chouser	but css to too limited for my taste
21:46	gnuvince_	I prefer things like BeautifulSoup
21:46	gnuvince_	Allow for more powerful searching
21:46	pjb3	$ would be an fn that takes a selector and N number of functions to apply to the matched elements
21:47	cooldude127	wtf emacs?
21:47	gnuvince_	soup.findAll('img', src=re.compile(r'png$'))
21:47	cooldude127	just up and crashed
21:47	Chouser	gnuvince_: more powerful than css, or than zip-filter?
21:48	rzezeski	Is the TagSoup for Java derived from Neil Mitchell's TagSoup Haskell library?
21:48	gnuvince_	rzezeski: no, they're completely different
21:48	rzezeski	oh gotcha
21:49	pjb3	gnuvince_: with CSS3 "img[src$=.png]"
21:49	gnuvince_	Chouser: afaik, you can't search by regexes with CSS selectors.
21:49	gnuvince_	pjb3: did they add regexes to CSS3?
21:49	Chouser	gnuvince_: ah, right. yeah, css is too limited.
21:49	gnuvince_	or is it just "ends-with"
21:49	pjb3	no, just starts with, ends with, contains
21:50	gnuvince_	ok
21:50	pjb3	which is not bad
21:50	gnuvince_	Sure
21:50	pjb3	and if you have a function language, it's easy enough to get more than you need and filter on the result set using the language
21:50	gnuvince_	But if I went ahead and did a library like that for Clojure, I'd make sure you're not limited to using substrings.
21:53	pjb3	(filter #(re-matches #"whatever" %) ($ "img[src$='.png']"))
21:54	gnuvince_	(find-all "img" {:src #"png$"})
21:57	pjb3	so how does this AOT thing work?
21:57	pjb3	do I still use gen-and-save-class if I want to extend a Java class?
21:58	Chouser	pjb3: for a few more days, yes.
22:04	pjb3	Chouser: So you can't use AOT to extend a Java class yet?
22:04	Chouser	pjb3: right. you can create a class with a main function, but that's it so far.
22:05	pjb3	Ok, so I was going to try to write an Applet with Clojure, but I guess that will have to wait
22:06	pjb3	but I could just write a Java class to implement the applet that just loads up a Clojure script, right?
22:06	Chouser	I believe rhickey's working on it actively -- making gen-class-like options available for the ns macro.
22:07	rhickey	Chouser: coming along - it's been a bear
22:08	Chouser	rhickey: so is it more or less fun to have an impatient audience (compare to two years of silent solo work)
22:10	rhickey	I'm thrilled with the ever growing audience, and having you guys to run interference :)
22:10	Chouser	heh
22:15	hiredman	man, I love "," as whitespace
22:18	hiredman	lisppaste8: url?
22:18	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
22:50	sohail	Chouser, more tagged type? :-)
22:55	Chouser	nope, pprint tonight
23:26	cooldude127	man this place is dead
23:27	Chouser	we're working. shhhh...
23:27	Chouser	;-)
23:29	cooldude127	hehe