#clojure – 2008-11-16

2008-11-16

02:25	Lau_of_DK	Morning gents
02:29	Chouser	Hey, Lau, having some emacs/irc issues there?
02:29	Chouser	:-)
02:34	Lau_of_DK	Hey Chouser
02:34	Lau_of_DK	Im not sure what happend, suddenly the screen turned dark, smoke came out of the back of my laptop - I heard the hard-drives reader-head break off and destroy all my data. And sinking back into the couch I remember thinking "this still beats Vim"
02:35	Chouser	ha ha
02:37	Lau_of_DK	Chouser: but this actually rocks. Im sitting code, sending code directly to my Repl having it evaluated. And if I need your advice on something, I hit F1 type "Cho<tab>" and we're chatting
02:37	Lau_of_DK	Any text you write, I can send to the Repl :)
02:37	Chouser	yes, that sounds nice.
02:38	Lau_of_DK	Isnt it around midnight where youare at ?
02:38	Chouser	2:30 AM. I should definitely not be awake.
02:38	Lau_of_DK	Thats gonna hurt in the 'morning' :)
02:39	Chouser	indeed
02:39	Lau_of_DK	Did you produce some outstanding code tonight though ?
02:39	Chouser	I'm in the thick of it. Got ClojureScript spun up to work post-AOT, and now I'm writing a little C program.
02:40	Lau_of_DK	How does C fit into this ?
02:40	Chouser	I want something with very fast startup time to use as a little cgi bridge for a ClojureScript REPL in a browser.
02:41	Lau_of_DK	oh, so you start that on the webserver and then connect to it?
02:42	Chouser	yeah, pretty much.
02:42	Lau_of_DK	Sounds like an awesome idea
02:42	Lau_of_DK	How far along are you ?
02:43	Chouser	the repl works pretty well locally, but I need this lame C program to get it all hosting nicely at n01se.net
02:43	Lau_of_DK	Considered ... I dare not say it... Perl for the job?
02:44	Chouser	yeah, but I want very fast lightweight startup.
02:44	Chouser	and the requirements are pretty thin, so I thought I'd try C
02:45	Chouser	I'm sure I'll regret it eventually.
02:45	Lau_of_DK	Fair enough
02:45	Lau_of_DK	hehe
02:48	Lau_of_DK	Lets say I want to store 500Mb of data in RAM - How do I go about this in Java?
02:57	Chouser	(make-array Byte/TYPE (* 500 1024 1024))
02:58	hiredman	is there an encoding for clojure source?
02:58	Chouser	hiredman: I think it defaults to UTF-8
02:59	hiredman	are there rules for vars?
03:00	hiredman	the last release of clojure seems to think ? (the interrobang) is =
03:00	hiredman	user=> (def I? I)
03:00	hiredman	#'user/I=
03:26	Lau_of_DK	Never heard of any interrobang :)
03:31	hiredman	You've never heard of the interrobang?
03:31	Lau_of_DK	no
03:32	hiredman	well, now you have
03:32	Lau_of_DK	Yea, thanks
03:33	Lau_of_DK	But all the Americans are sleeping now (presumeably) so you might gain more from posting your question to the ggroup
03:33	hiredman	I guess
03:33	hiredman	user=> (def ? :heart)
03:33	hiredman	#'user/e
03:48	Lau_of_DK	Do you see any special use for this?
04:05	kotarak	Hmm.. recur in a catch clause doesn't work?
04:10	Lau_of_DK	Whats your experience MR. Kota ?
04:11	kotarak	(try ... (catch Exception e (loop [x e] .... (recur (do-something-to x)))) complains
04:13	Lau_of_DK	If possible, maybe you should just wrap the execution of that whole func in a try/catch ?
04:13	kotarak	(try :x (catch Exception e (loop [x e] (if (.getCause x) (recur (.getCause x)) x))))
04:13	kotarak	java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: Cannot recur from catch/finally (NO_SOURCE_FILE:1)
04:14	kotarak	I think, this is a valid use of loop.
04:14	Lau_of_DK	k, so do what I said
04:14	Lau_of_DK	Its quite clear "Cannot recur from catch"
04:14	Lau_of_DK	I have to jet, bubye
06:02	AWizzArd	Clojure lists know their length, yes? (count list) ==> O(1)
06:04	Pupeno	Hello.
06:04	AWizzArd	Hi Pup
06:05	Pupeno	AWizzArd: I haven't been called Pup in quite a while :)
06:06	Pupeno	AWizzArd: I would expect count to be O(n) on lists, but O(1) on vectors, but there might be some optimization.
06:12	polli	AWizzArd: for PersistentLists it's O(1)
06:14	polli	judging from scimming through its implementation
06:24	kotarak	AWizzArd: according to clojure.org count is O(1) for lists, vectors and maps
06:33	AWizzArd	kotarak: thx
08:09	pjb3	So with the latest clojure, if I have some directory on my classpath, and in that directory I have a foo directory that has a bar.clj file in it, that file should declare (ns foo.bar) at the top, correct?
08:09	rhickey	pjb3: yup
08:10	pjb3	and then I should be able to do (require 'foo.bar), right?
08:11	rhickey	yes
08:13	pjb3	ah, I got it now, had a typo in my classpath, thanks
08:20	rhickey	poll - if you enter (cast 4 String) at the repl, do you get a CastClassExceptionMessage naming both types or only Integer, and if both, what message do you get and what VM are you running?
08:20	rhickey	I get: java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer
08:21	pjb3	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
08:21	kotarak	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer
08:21	rhickey	would prefer: java.lang.ClassCastException: had java.lang.Integer wanted java.lang.Class orsomething
08:21	pjb3	The 1.5 JDK that comes with Mac OS X Leopard
08:21	kotarak	mac 10.5.5 stock java 1.5
08:21	rhickey	I'm only interested if it's different from mine
08:22	rhickey	I know I've seen messages with both types in stack traces from users, but didn't ask then
08:23	mehrheit	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to java.lang.Class (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
08:23	mehrheit	on Sun JDK 1.6
08:23	rhickey	mehrheit: what OS?
08:24	mmcgrana	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to java.lang.Class (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
08:24	mehrheit	ubuntu 8.10
08:24	rhickey	mmcgrana: what JVM/OS?
08:24	mmcgrana	1.5 OS X leopard
08:25	rhickey	ok, so maybe fixed in JDK 6, same here on JDK 6
08:26	mmcgrana	o wait sorry rhickey i'm actually 1.6
08:27	mmcgrana	i had switched back and forth yesterday trying to get the core precombile thing to work. sorry about the confusion
08:27	mmcgrana	*precompile
08:30	pjb3	I jut noticed the REPL prints the expression that you entered as well as the value the expression evaluates too
08:30	pjb3	Has it always done that or is that a recent thing?
08:31	kotarak	I had this with a broken rlwrap.
08:31	rhickey	pjb3: it doesn't do that
08:32	pjb3	Ah, that is an aquamacs thing I guess
08:32	pjb3	rhickey: your right, doesn't do that when I run the REPL from the command line
08:32	pjb3	does it when it is the inferior-lisp in aquamacs
08:45	rhickey	pjb3: not for me, but I haven't updated my clojure-mode in ages
08:46	pjb3	rhickey: weird, maybe that's just another setting somewhere in aquamacs
08:47	rhickey	pjb3: you type 42 enter and get 42 newline 42?
08:47	rhickey	user=> 42
08:47	rhickey	42
08:48	pjb3	rhickey: yeah, I get it twice
08:48	pjb3	user=> 42
08:48	pjb3	42
08:48	pjb3	42
08:48	rhickey	yikes
08:48	pjb3	user => (+ 1 2)
08:48	pjb3	(+ 1 2)
08:48	pjb3	3
08:48	pjb3	yeah, it's annoying, what did I do! :)
08:48	kotarak	pjb3: I had this with an old version of rlwrap. Maybe this effect is similar. How do you start clojure?
08:50	pjb3	kotarak: http://github.com/pjb3/clojure-bin/tree/master/clojure
08:50	pjb3	I set that script as the inferior-lisp-program
08:51	pjb3	then press C-C C-Z when I'm in a .clj file
08:51	kotarak	Do you have jline somewhere in your cp? Maybe this interferes?
08:51	pjb3	it does it in aquamacs only, not if I start that command line
08:51	pjb3	Yeah, I do have JLine, let me try to take that out
08:53	pjb3	kotarak: Yeah, jline seems to be the problem
08:53	kib2	\join #lyx
09:15	pjb3	What's up with this?
09:15	pjb3	user=> (contains? [\b \y] \b)
09:15	pjb3	false
09:15	pjb3	user=> (contains? #{\b \y} \b)
09:15	pjb3	true
09:16	pjb3	oh right, contains is has-key?, that confuses me every time :/
09:17	pjb3	Is there a function for "does this sequence has this value in it?"
09:18	mmcgrana	includes? in seq-utils in contrib
09:18	rhickey	user=> (some #{\b} [\b \y])
09:18	rhickey	\b
09:19	Chousuke	nifty use of sets, that :P
09:19	mmcgrana	btw rich what was the inspiration for the name some - does that come from another lisp?
09:19	rhickey	plus you can put in more than one search item
09:20	rhickey	mmcgrana: CL has some
10:02	duck1123	if I want a param with a default optional param, I need to use multimethods? or something else?
10:03	kotarak	duck1123: (defn foo ([x] (foo x 5)) ([x y] (+ x y)))
10:03	duck1123	ok, thanks
10:10	Chouser	or: (defn foo [a & [b]] (+ a (or b 5)))
10:24	mibu	I have two questions regarding future development of clojure: 1. I saw there are plans to deprecate the . function - has it become too late to drop it anytime soon and nip it in the bud? 2. What is the plan with the contribs? Is it going to be a repository like system, or are there inclusive intents to get anything good into clojure core like in python and java?
10:25	Chousuke	mibu: some stuff from contrib might end up in core. nothing has been decided yet, though.
10:25	Chousuke	I don't know about .
10:25	Chousuke	Personally I'd like to see it disappear, though.
10:26	Chouser	The namespace loading stuff (use, require, alias, etc.) started off in contrib
10:27	kotarak	there is vote going on for extensions from contrib to be included in core
10:27	rhickey	The value of . is that all of the other sugar just turns into that at macroexpand time, so code analyzers need only deal with . and not static/member, .member, ctor. etc
10:27	mibu	chousuke: I also don't like it. But its presence is just calling for people to use. Has clojure reached the point where it can't be just be removed because of concerns of breaking code?
10:28	kotarak	then almost all my code will break
10:28	Chousuke	maybe people should just be encouraged not to use . outside of macros :p
10:28	duck1123	Once nobody ever sees use of . they'll never think to use it like that
10:28	mibu	rhickey: so will . remain for macros?
10:28	rhickey	Chousuke: yes, I just need to change the docs to emphasize the other forms
10:28	Chouser	oh, I was under the impression . was going away for statics
10:29	rhickey	Chouser: undecided on that, in fact there is a new need for it to disambiguate calls to static members of classes corresponding to namespaces
10:30	rhickey	admittedly rare, but my.ns/foo will not resolve to the class my.ns
10:32	Chouser	yeah, I've noticed related issues for ClojureScript. I can't use the Class/member syntax for JS classes because the compiler assumes they're namespaces.
10:32	mibu	rhickey: I'm confused. what are the long-term plans for . ?
10:32	Chousuke	maybe I should remove uses of . from the clojure wikibook... to manipulate new users into not using it.
10:33	rhickey	mibu: there are no plans to change .
10:33	mibu	oh ok.
10:35	Chouser	any plans to make StructMap$Def implement IFn? :-)
10:36	rhickey	Chouser: I dont know if you saw my comment to cemerick on structmaps in the light of AOT (will try to find it)
10:38	mibu	rhickey: about the contribs issue, what's your take on the core library in general - an inclusive battery-included kind of core with plenty of common use facilities or a more compact core which is supplemented with 'require'd extensions?
10:41	rhickey	mibu: the latter. OTOH, you shouldn't have to require anything for basics, so some of what is in contrib (i.e. case) can move in. Maybe contribs could have those things that are proven separated somehow from those that are gestating, the former being included with the distribution.
10:41	Chouser	rhickey: I saw it, but I suppose I didn't understand the implications.
10:42	rhickey	the implications are you have to wait for me to figure that out before I do any more enhancements to structmaps :)
10:44	mibu	rhickey: is there some kind of plan for a standard repository and install mechanism? you know, to avoid a fiasco like we have with CL library installation...
10:45	rhickey	mibu: AOT and the solidification of the directory structure serve as a basis for library management mechanisms, including some of those successful in Java-land.
10:48	mibu	rhickey: yeah, but will there be a standard to avoid making it a chore to figure out how to quickly install depended extensions? Something as simple as (install 'sql)
10:48	Chousuke	mibu: I don't think that's going to be a problem
10:48	rhickey	mibu: the community will figure that out
10:48	Chousuke	mibu: you can just download a jar, add it to classpath, and use it
10:49	duck1123	We have all the options open to java available to us
10:49	rhickey	there are a lot of models, and Clojure has the benefit of a community with knowledge of those of CL/Scheme/Ruby/Python/Java etc
10:49	duck1123	has anyone tried Ties yet?
10:50	Chouser	if structmap basis become named classes and structmaps instances of those, people will immediately begin dispatching multimethods on basis type.
11:07	rhickey	Chouser: I'm not sure that is bad vs everyone reinventing their own metadata-based mechanism for his common case - the main problem with real classes here is their lack of dynamism - can't add a field without a restart
11:07	rhickey	this common
11:08	rhickey	I don't have a solution for this yet, but would like structmaps to be 'serializable' at some point
11:09	mibu	there is a mention in boot.clj that import is not the preferred way to import, yet in every example I see there is import. what am I missing?
11:11	rhickey	mibu: a) those examples may have predated ns having :import capability, or b) for a one-off script you might not have a ns
11:11	kotarak	(ns (:import ...)) is preferred over (import '(...)), as I understand it.
11:11	rhickey	if you have a ns, don't use import
11:12	kotarak	rhickey: but I found it necessary sometimes: (when compile-files (gen-class-stuff-here)) (import '...) because ns assumes that everything is already there.
11:13	rhickey	kotarak: gen-class should become much better when integrated into AOT
11:13	kotarak	rhickey: hopefully. :)
11:13	mibu	rhickey: the distinction of uses (import,:import) is not clear in the docs.
11:14	kotarak	Although: compile-files eliminated a separate compilation step for gen-class.
11:15	mibu	rhickey: if you add "if you have a ns, don't use import" to the docs. it'll solve a lot of headaches later :-)
11:17	kotarak	Is it possible to get the remaining string out of a string reader? (def x (new java.io.StringReader "hello")) (.read x) (.read x) (??? x) => "llo" ?
11:20	danlei	em
11:20	danlei	miss
11:36	Drakeson	Is there a simple way to import and rename java camelCase classes and methods into dash-seperated names?
11:49	Drakeson	like, can I ship an fn to :rename? (e.g., as in (refer ... :rename (fn [x] ..)))
11:50	Drakeson	the API only says "map"
11:51	rhickey	Drakeson: rename fn is interesting, a concrete map is expected right now
11:52	rhickey	but the rename of Java API is likely to be a bad idea because: other people can't read your code, IDEs can't help you etc
11:58	Drakeson	it is not an arbitrary/hackish renaming. It is to make all the names in clojure and libraries consistent. Currently the names seem ... a bit funny.
12:01	Drakeson	also it slightly improves readability. something-or-the-other can be read easier than SomethingOrTheOther, IMHO.
12:04	danlei	how do i get a string of a seq of chars?
12:04	rhickey	Drakeson: I prefer dash-separated-names too, but we didn't name these things, someone else did, and I'm now in the camp that says it's best to leave them as named by their owners - all conversion strategies have problems, difficult-to-guess transformations, need to be supported by all tools etc
12:04	danlei	(??? (seq "hello")) -> "hello"
12:04	kotarak	danlei: (apply str (seq "Hello"))
12:05	danlei	kotarak: ah, thanks
12:40	pjb3	testing...1...2...3...
12:42	rhickey	pjb3: testing what?
12:42	pjb3	rhickey: just some IRC thing, plz ignore, sorry
12:43	rhickey	np
12:43	pjb3	specifically http://mibbit.com
12:43	pjb3	web-based IRC thing
12:43	pjb3	that's what all those mib_* join/left messages were about
12:47	kotarak	Chouser: thanks for the discussion yesterday. I have now a working vim repl with multiple expression send. Ugly, but working. :)
12:50	Chouser	kotarak: sounds just like vim itself. :-)
12:50	kotarak	yeah, in some way :)
13:24	Lau_of_DK	Good evening gents =)
13:31	Lau_of_DK	Design question for those of you who like agents. I have a swing program, which runs several agents (in the 100s). All these pile up some type of data. I have another agent, which in a transaction reads the queue, outputs the data to a visual log, and clears out the global ref which they all log into.
13:31	Lau_of_DK	Is this the correct way to handle that type of thing?
13:34	AWizzArd	Is that all to have a user not waiting? Or do you just want to write logs?
13:52	Lau_of_DK	Noone here likes agents?
13:53	SnowBuddy	When you see an agent, you run.
13:54	Lau_of_DK	Not me - I bend backwards really fast, making a clear statement
13:55	Lau_of_DK	But doesnt anyone here have a take on my design question?
13:56	arbscht	Lau_of_DK: is the read-clear routine atomic?
13:57	Lau_of_DK	I was thinking about that earlier, because for accuracy it needs to be ofc. How could I accomplish that?
13:57	arbscht	is it in a single transaction?
13:59	Lau_of_DK	Yes
13:59	Lau_of_DK	I mean, theres really no need to do the reading in a transaction, but it can be done ofc
14:18	Lau_of_DK	In practical terms, how do I choose between alter/commute, they seem very similar
14:18	Lau_of_DK	Or, rephrase: When do I prefer one above the other?
14:22	mortis`	humbly requesting help...going through the PP book, trying to get lancet to load
14:22	mortis`	I have added what I think is the correct path to the classpath: (add-classpath "file:///home/mortis/personal/projects/clojure/lancet")
14:23	mortis`	though, when I: (require 'lancet)
14:23	Lau_of_DK	PP??
14:23	gnuvince_	PragProg
14:23	mortis`	I get: Could not locate Clojure resource on classpath: lancet/lancet.clj (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
14:23	mortis`	PP => pragmatic programmers book
14:23	mortis`	the PDF
14:24	mortis`	...and this returns true: (. (new java.io.File (str "/home/mortis/personal/projects/clojure/lancet/" "lancet/lancet.clj")) exists)
14:24	mortis`	which is what I think it'd be doing when I attempt to use lancet
14:24	Lau_of_DK	Never heard about the book Im afraid, but if its free and you have a link I can have a look
14:24	mortis`	er, it's not
14:24	Lau_of_DK	k
14:25	mortis`	the books is irrelevant to the issue I"m having, it was just a bit of context
14:25	Chousuke	mortis`: I think the classpath needs the final /
14:25	mortis`	I'll try that
14:25	mortis`	ok, that worked, thanks
14:25	mortis`	all classpath-urls have to end w/a filesep?
14:25	mortis`	well, I suppose that's teh case
14:25	Chousuke	and please use .method syntax instead of . ;( . is difficult to read
14:26	mortis`	any chance we could have add-classpath do that for file:// urls?
14:26	Chousuke	mortis`: java thinks they are jars if they don't
14:26	mortis`	ah ok
14:26	mortis`	is there a difference between the jscheme style (.method instance args) vs the (. instance (method args))?
14:27	Chousuke	no. except that the latter is not as nice.
14:27	rhickey	mortis`: the former is preferred
14:27	Chousuke	.foo also works for fields, not just methods.
14:27	mortis`	oh, great
14:28	Lau_of_DK	rhickey: Can you answer my design-question above, is it the correct use of agents, and can it be done atomic, the print/clear log ?
14:29	rhickey	if you want a queue, use j.u.concurrent queues
14:29	Lau_of_DK	I think I cant avoid having a queue when its a log we're talking about, but I'd much prefer to use the wrappers if thats at all possible ?
14:30	rhickey	Clojure doesn't wrap, j.u.concurrent, but works with it
14:30	AWizzArd	Would that be also the right thing for something that is just a side effect and needs no data itself? Say, my app wants to write every minute some data into a file, then an agent would feel a bit artificial, as I would have no data that needs a change.
14:31	rhickey	AWizzArd: agents make fine thread wrappers, or you can use Thread
14:31	rhickey	AWizzArd: agents also encapsulate thread pools
14:31	Lau_of_DK	rhickey: works with it? Just to avoid misunderstandings: I consider the whole agent setup as wrapers of Javas threads, correct? So when you say that Clojure works with java queue class, do you mean something beside the usual java interop?
14:32	rhickey	I mean java.util.concurent queues - these are data structures, not threads - agents can communicate through queues
14:33	rhickey	i.e. don't use STM to implement anything proved by j.u.concurrent
14:35	Lau_of_DK	k, thanks rich
14:36	Lau_of_DK	Now about agents, without thinking too much about it, all repetive agent-funcs end with the line (send-off agent self) right? My agent for some reason becomes an error after the first cycle, where do I look for a more precise error message?
14:37	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: I will eventually provide a wrapper API for j.u.concurrent since so few people know about it
14:37	duck1123	just saw that #! is now a comment. Very cool
14:37	quuuux_	hi, while making my first steps with clojure i stumbled upon the following maybe-problem... calling "with-in-str" in r1106 fails with "java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: with-open now requires a vector for its binding". Wrapping name and init in the call to "with-open" (core.clj, line 2397) in a vector seems to fix the problem for me.
14:38	Lau_of_DK	rhickey: thats very kind of you =)
14:39	Chousuke	quuuux_: it seems with-in-str has a bug :)
14:40	rhickey	quuuux_: got it, thanks
14:41	quuuux_	np
14:41	Chousuke	hmm
14:43	Chousuke	would it make sense to extend with-open to support multiple bindings? like (with-open [a (File.) b (File.)] ... ? currently with-open will not complain about that, but only the first file will actually be closed :/
14:43	Lau_of_DK	You wouldn't need it that often would you? But on the other hand, it couldnt really hurt?
14:44	Chousuke	it might hurt if people assume with-open supports multiple bindings but doesn't actually close anything but the first...
14:44	Lau_of_DK	rhickey: Now I understand that using j.u.concurrent is the correct approach, but just out of pure interest in agents/STM - Can I make 2 transaction be virtually atomic? (like f.i clearing a log and outputting the data)
14:46	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: nest transactions join the enclosing transaction
14:46	rhickey	nested
14:48	Lau_of_DK	rhickey: Normally I have absolute no problem understanding Americans, but for some reason you sometimes come across almost cryptic. Can you further explain "join the enclosing transaction" ? Does it mean that the STM locks down the I/O while comitting everything in the dosync?
14:49	rhickey	(dosync ... (dosync ...) (dosync ...)) is one atomic transaction
14:50	Chousuke	If I want to map a function that has side-effects, the correct way to do that is (dorun (map ...), right?
14:51	rhickey	i.e. if you have two functions that themselves are transactions and call them within another dosync, they become part of that outer transaction and all occur together
14:51	AWizzArd	Chousuke: dorun or doseq?
14:51	rhickey	Chousuke: yes, if you don't need the resulting seq
14:51	Lau_of_DK	oooh :) Thats fantastic, thanks rhickey
14:51	Chousuke	AWizzArd: I don't think I want to use doseq for this
14:51	AWizzArd	can one make circular structures in Clojure?
14:53	Chousuke	going to experiment with changing the finally block in with-open to do (dorun (map #(.close (first %)) ~(partition 2 bindings))) instead of just (.close ~(first bindings))
14:53	astor	I've seen that I need async lazy sequences - kind of producer/consumer, but where the consumer is in the form of a lazy sequence. To me, a channel abstraction of some sort would be natural for this, and the produer/consumer example I've seen is kind of cumbersome. Is a channel something that should be built on top of agents, or where does this fit into the clojure world?
14:57	rhickey	astor: you could look at seque
14:57	rhickey	(doc seque)
14:58	Lau_of_DK	I think (ref-set alter and commute) are a bit confusing. If I have a ref to a vector [1 2] and I want to conj 3 onto that vector, whats the recommended approach?
14:58	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: (alter aref conj 3)
14:59	Lau_of_DK	Thanks
15:03	gnuvince_	What's the difference between setting the value of ref and setting the in-transaction-value of ref?
15:06	gnuvince_	THe number of people in here just keeps growing, doesn't it?
15:07	Lau_of_DK	gnuvince_: I presume in the first example you speak of the value which is commited once the transaction closes, and the other is visible within the transaction ?
15:12	astor	rhickey: thanks
15:16	Lau_of_DK	I just want to share this with you Emacsers. Most of you have got slime working so that you can eval code directly from your buffer. But did you know that with ERC you can also have #Clojure scrolling right in a buffer, so that you can copy/eval code directly from the channel without ever leaving emacs? I think this is great, so I just wanted to share :)
15:17	AWizzArd	it's nice, but for lot's of code it is even nicer to post it online somewhere, instead of spamming the channel :-)
15:19	Lau_of_DK	Its a matter of taste, for debugging I prefer lisp.paste, for sharing cool snippits, I prefer in chan, but thats just me
15:25	Chousuke	hmm
15:26	Chousuke	my multiple-binding with-open appears to work. yay
15:26	Lau_of_DK	yay :)
15:26	danlei	Lau_of_DK: also beware that you could end up like me: sending random snippets and stuff to unrelated channels, because you keep hitting the wrong buffer from time to time ;)
15:26	Chousuke	it's a ~one-line change though :p
15:26	Lau_of_DK	danlei: oh my - you do that too ? :)
15:27	Lau_of_DK	Chousuke: Thats Lisp for you :)
15:29	Chousuke	can't send a patch though as I have no CA.
15:32	blarfo	wha is ~ ? gensym? or @ in common lisp
15:32	Chousuke	~ is unquote
15:32	Lau_of_DK	blarfo: I think gensym is var#
15:35	Chousuke	wonder if I could just release my patch as public domain to circumvent the need for a CA :P
15:36	fanda	Hello! Just a question about 'symbol' fn
15:36	fanda	user=> (symbol "abc")
15:36	fanda	abc
15:36	fanda	user=> (symbol nil)
15:36	fanda	java.lang.NullPointerException (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
15:36	fanda	What would you expect to return (symbol nil)? Is this an expected behavior?
15:36	fanda	Thanks!
15:38	rhickey	fanda: symbol takes a name string, nil is not a name
15:38	rhickey	so, yes, NPE
15:39	fanda	rhickey: hm... so exception is pretty much ok
15:39	fanda	just thinking about different tests for functions
15:42	leafw	if one has a vector [1 2 3] .. what is the proper way to check if number 'a' is contained in the vector?
15:42	leafw	(some #{a} v) is failing for me
15:45	Lau_of_DK	(some #(= 5 %) [1 2 3 4 5])
15:45	danlei	leafw: if i understand you right: (let [a 1] (some #(= % a) [2 3 1]))
15:46	rhickey	user=> (some #{2} [1 2 3 4])
15:46	rhickey	2
15:46	blarfo	can i shorten this: (fn [x] (= x true )) ?
15:46	Lau_of_DK	Guys, if you check out the macro time in core.clj - I would like to modify it, so that instead of just printing the execution time, that it actually attaches it as meta-data, but Im having some difficulty - Can anybody see how that could be accomplished?
15:47	rhickey	leafw: what didn't work?
15:47	leafw	never mind. Extra tick in macro.
15:47	leafw	thanks guys.
15:47	leafw	debuging macros is hard.
15:47	Lau_of_DK	blarfo: #(= true x) ?
15:48	hiredman	I have the latest clojure release, and if I try to def ? to :x it binds :x to the symbol e similar thinsg happen when trying to use other unicode entities as symbols
15:48	rhickey	blarfo: true? does that
15:48	hiredman	the interrobang ? turns in the symbol =
15:49	hiredman	? seems to work ok though :P
15:53	Lau_of_DK	Come on guys, its a very simple macro, any takers? :)
15:55	AWizzArd	Lau, what exactly did you try so far, and what happened?
15:56	rhickey	hiredman: did that work in the past?
15:57	Lau_of_DK	AWizzArd: Im trying to return (with-meta ret# (calculus)) instead of prn then ret#
15:57	Lau_of_DK	But Im not sure if I can still get an accurate time
16:01	AWizzArd	In principle the timing should be over before you attach the meta data and/or print it out into the repl. So I guess the timing would stay as accurate as your current hardware allows.
16:02	Lau_of_DK	user> (timer (take 10 primes))
16:02	Lau_of_DK	(clojure/let [start__4753 (System/nanoTime) ret__4754 (2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19 23 29)] (clojure/with-meta ret__4754 {:time (clojure/str (clojure// (clojure/double (clojure/- (. java.lang.System (user/nanoTime)) start__4753)) 1000000.0))}))
16:02	Lau_of_DK	This looks funny
16:03	AWizzArd	Oh, clojure// is division yes? :-)
16:03	Lau_of_DK	But the timing here is pretty important since its a benchmarking/stress-testing program Im writing
16:03	Lau_of_DK	yes
16:04	AWizzArd	What I find very strange is that there are still no complex numbers in the standard java lib.
16:06	Lau_of_DK	In a macro like (defmacro test [expr] (let [ret# ~expr]).. Does ret# already at the point hold the return value of expr?
16:07	hiredman	Lau_of_DK: you may have already run into this, but (with-meta ret# {:x :y}) as the tail of the macro raises and exception
16:08	hiredman	but (with-meta [ret#] {:x :y}) does not
16:10	Lau_of_DK	I cant even get a result, I just get a macro-expansion
16:10	hiredman	huh?
16:10	hiredman	huh?
16:11	Lau_of_DK	hehe
16:11	Lau_of_DK	user> (timer (take 10 primes))
16:11	Lau_of_DK	(clojure/let [start__4817 (System/nanoTime) ret__4818 (2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19 23 29) user/benchmark (clojure/str (clojure// (clojure/double (clojure/- (. java.lang.System (user/nanoTime)) start__4817)) 1000000.0))] (clojure/with-meta [ret__4818] {:time user/benchmark}))
16:11	Lau_of_DK
16:11	Lau_of_DK	Like this - This is not what I paid for
16:12	Lau_of_DK	In a macro like (defmacro test [expr] (let [ret# ~expr]).. Does
16:12	Lau_of_DK	ret# already at the point hold the return value of expr?
16:12	hiredman	`(let
16:12	Lau_of_DK	I have that
16:13	hiredman	I think yes, but it sort of depends on what you mean by "that point" and the quote
16:13	Lau_of_DK	I mean, does ~expr = evaluation
16:13	hiredman	yes
16:15	hiredman	http://www.thelastcitadel.com/clojure/time-meta returns a vector with the metadata associated to vector, and the result in the vector
16:15	hiredman	if I try it without a vector it throws an error
16:16	hiredman	in fact, the same error I get from (with-meta 5 {:x :y})
16:16	hiredman	so nums don't get metadata
16:17	hiredman	and the function I was testing it on, returns a num
16:17	danlei	just symbols or collections, afaik
16:18	Lau_of_DK	hiredman: I dont quite understand your code. You define tim#, but in the map you use :time and :a, which are defined nowhere, what gives?
16:20	hiredman	oh
16:20	hiredman	I think I made a bug
16:21	hiredman	:a should be tim#
16:22	Lau_of_DK	k
16:24	Chousuke	hmmh
16:24	Chousuke	is there a reliable way to determine whether a symbol is a gensym or not?
16:24	hiredman	seems like you almost might as well just have it evaluate to a hash {:time n :result output}
16:24	hiredman	if you need a collection to attach metadata to anyway
16:25	Chousuke	5 can't have metadata, it's a constant :/
16:25	hiredman	yeah
16:25	hiredman	I figured that out :P
16:28	danlei	my shot: http://paste.lisp.org/display/70520
16:28	Lau_of_DK	thanks danlei
16:28	danlei	np
16:29	danlei	still gotta lookup things all the time ...
16:29	Lau_of_DK	Im really starting to like the Clojure-community
16:30	Lau_of_DK	In the early days answers were much harder to come by
16:30	danlei	oh
16:30	danlei	,'s sneaked in ...
16:33	danlei	Lau_of_DK: that's better: http://paste.lisp.org/display/70521
16:33	Lau_of_DK	thanks alot danlei, its an interesting approach
16:33	Lau_of_DK	notice: You can annote your own pastes to keep the history
16:35	danlei	Lau_of_DK: just saw it after i pasted the 2nd one =), thanks
16:40	Lau_of_DK	danlei: that fancy (or (and (or (...)))) thing you got going on, thats just to check if its a symbol, if so attach meta, if not, just return it
16:40	Lau_of_DK	?
16:41	danlei	Lau_of_DK: yes, could've used if, or some other conditional
16:41	Lau_of_DK	No no, (or (and (or))) looks good, its original :)
16:42	Chousuke	hmm
16:42	Chousuke	functional programmin really is fun :)
16:43	Chousuke	I wrote a neat little function to return a seq of all the names bound by a destructuring binding form.
16:43	Lau_of_DK	Paste it!
16:44	Chousuke	I was fortunate enough to find 'destructure from core.clj so I didn't actually have to write the destructuring myself...
16:47	Chousuke	http://paste.lisp.org/display/70524
16:47	Chousuke	might be useful if you're writing macros.
16:48	Chousuke	the problem is though that it ignores gensyms for now (because destructure generates gensyms)
16:49	Lau_of_DK	looks nice, as concise as can be
16:49	Chousuke	also I notice there's an error
16:49	Chousuke	should be (destructure binding-form), not (destructure bindings)
16:51	Chousuke	that doesn't necessarily find all gensyms either :/
16:51	Pupeno	Hello.
16:52	Lau_of_DK	Hello MR. Pupeno
17:01	pjb3	Is this a bug?
17:01	pjb3	user=> (for [i (range 0 2)] (do (println i) i))
17:01	pjb3	(0
17:01	pjb3	0 1
17:01	pjb3	1)
17:01	pjb3	I would expect
17:01	pjb3	user=> (for [i (range 0 2)] (do (println i) i))
17:01	pjb3	0 1
17:01	pjb3	1)
17:01	pjb3	oops, not that
17:01	pjb3	user=> (for [i (range 0 2)] (do (println i) i))
17:01	pjb3	0
17:01	pjb3	1
17:01	pjb3	(0 1)
17:02	pjb3	What happens is that somehow the values that are printed are mixed in with the return value
17:03	Lau_of_DK	Its not a bug, println doesnt return anything, it just mangles the output
17:03	Lau_of_DK	(for [i (range 2)] (do i))
17:03	Lau_of_DK	(0 1)
17:03	Lau_of_DK	This is the return, and in that, you have printed first 0, then on the next line 1
17:03	pjb3	Lau_of_DK: so why isn't the result
17:03	pjb3	0
17:03	pjb3	1
17:03	pjb3	(0 1)
17:04	pjb3	Shouldn't the first println happen, then the second, then expression is finished evaluating and the REPL prints the return value
17:04	pjb3	?
17:05	rhickey	pjb3: for is lazy, use dorun on the result or switch to doseq which now takes all the options of for, but is eager
17:05	Chousuke	hmm
17:06	Chousuke	apparently destructure only generates gensyms prefixed vec__ and map__... maybe I could use that to filter them out :/
17:06	Chousuke	ugly, though :(
17:07	Lau_of_DK	Regex is ugly...Perl is regex....I'll stop here :)
17:07	pjb3	rhickey: both of those print, but return nil
17:09	Pupeno	How do you quit Slime?
17:09	Pupeno	Other than by manually killing all its buffers?
17:09	danlei	Pupeno: ,sayoonara
17:10	Pupeno	danlei: cryptic! thanks.
17:10	pjb3	(let [x (for [i (range 0 2)] (do (println i) i))] (doall x))
17:10	pjb3	that works
17:11	Pupeno	And when you get errors, is there a way to dismiss them without killing the window?
17:11	danlei	Pupeno: q
17:11	pjb3	or I guess just (doall (for [i (range 0 2)] (do (println i) i)))
17:11	danlei	Pupeno: if you're in the debutter
17:12	danlei	*bugger
17:12	Pupeno	danlei: I used to do that with CL, but that is killing with the window.
17:13	danlei	Pupeno: hm, for me, q works the same with clojure and cl
17:15	Pupeno	danlei: I don't know about CL as I haven't used it in a long time, all I know is that q kills the (Emacs) window here.
17:16	danlei	hm, i don't think i can help you, works fine here. (ends the debugger, but doesn't kill the buffer)
17:16	Pupeno	ok.
17:16	Pupeno	probably my unstable emacs playing tricks on me... who knows.
17:17	danlei	Pupeno: but then, i'm not sure if i understand you right. do you mean 1. 2 buffers, 2. error -> debugger -> q 3. only one buffer open?
17:21	Pupeno	danlei: not buffers, windows. But the answer is probably yes (Emacs terminology is weird).
17:21	pjb3	wow, duck streams FTW
17:22	pjb3	(with-open [rdr (reader "http://www.google.com")] (doseq [l (line-seq rdr)] (println l)))
17:22	danlei	Pupeno: hm. in my case, there is no debugger buffer after q, but the window buffer stays open. (in emacs terminology)
17:22	pjb3	(with-open [rdr (reader "/etc/passwd")] (doseq [l (line-seq rdr)] (println l)))
17:23	pjb3	I remember things like that being a major PITA when I was doing a lot of Java programming
17:24	Pupeno	danlei: in my case, the emacs window gets destroyed, like if I did C-x 0.
17:24	danlei	pup: hm
17:25	hiredman	pjb3: word
17:26	Chousuke	I improved my bound-names function somewhat, but still it could be made more robust. any ideas? http://paste.lisp.org/display/70528
17:26	danlei	Pupeno: then maybe it's your emacs. 2 window stays open here, if there was one, before the debugger popped up
17:27	Pupeno	danlei: yes, maybe it is.
17:28	Chousuke	is that binding form even correct :/
17:28	Chousuke	meh, anyway. you should get the idea :)
17:29	Pupeno	Anyway... anyone working on 1094+ compatibility for compojure?
17:50	Pupeno	Ok, done.
17:54	meredydd	Pupeno: Excellent. Does anyone have integration with more recent Jetty versions, too?
17:55	meredydd	I tried to play around with the Comet stuff a while ago, but the docs are really thin on the ground for the two-iterations-behind version they're using
17:56	Pupeno	meredydd: you mean jetty 7? not sure.
17:56	dthomas	I'm a Python programmer learning Clojure. I'm doing a simple little web scraping exercise, and I'm having trouble converting the idea of a generator to something in Clojure. Could anyone point me in the right direction for doing something like http://paste.lisp.org/display/70530 in Clojure?
17:57	Pupeno	meredydd: you can check the compojure network: http://github.com/weavejester/compojure/network
17:57	walters	dthomas: i think the rough equivalent is lazy-cons
17:57	meredydd	That's wicked cool.
17:57	meredydd	I think I need to learn git.
17:58	pjb3	If you want to find the first element in a seq that meets a predicate, do you have to do (first (filter pred coll)), or is there a different function that does that?
18:02	dthomas	walters: That was my first guess. Will returning the results in a lazy sequence mean that all the members of the sequence are going to hang around until the whole sequence becomes eligible for garbage collection?
18:03	walters	dthomas: you're talking to a python expert but a total clojure newbie, so we've about exhausted my clojure knowledge =) but my guess is yes
18:03	hiredman	in the irc log someone mentions some "agents and refs in use" slides of rhickey's, does anyone know if those are around somewhere?
18:03	Chousuke	dthomas: hmm, no.
18:04	hiredman	as long as you don't have onto the head, right?
18:04	dthomas	walters: Yeah, my guess too. That led me to think that lazy sequences aren't 100% the right solution.
18:04	Chousuke	dthomas: as long as you don't hold on to the head, previous parts may be freed.
18:07	meredydd	pjb3: (some pred coll) does the trick
18:07	dthomas	Chousuke: Ah, so (doseq x (lazy-make-a-lot-of-stuff) (prn x)) won't eat up more memory than the biggest item in the lazy sequence (ideally)?
18:08	meredydd	uhh, wait, no
18:08	pjb3	meredydd: some returns the value of the pred
18:08	meredydd	oh, rats.
18:09	pjb3	this does the trick: http://gist.github.com/25589
18:09	dthomas	Chousuke: (Sorry, that's actually not very good phrasing on my part, but I hope my intention was clear.)
18:10	meredydd	pjb3: Or just (defn find-first [pred coll] (some #(when-let x (pred coll) x) coll)
18:11	meredydd	Oh, what am I talking about? (defn find-first [pred coll] (first (filter pred coll))) is simple, easy and efficient.
18:11	pjb3	meredydd: oh, filter is lazy?
18:12	meredydd	of course
18:12	pjb3	right
18:13	rhickey	dthomas: if you (lazy-cons first-expr rest-expr) neither expr is evaluated until needed. If rest-expr in turn is lazy, then the result is that the only part of the sequence that exists at any point is the part you are using. Can definitely substitute for generators, albeit with a less imperative approach. You can make infinite sequences etc
18:15	pjb3	that would be cool if first had a two argument version that let you avoid the filter
18:15	dthomas	rhickey: Cool, "only part of the sequence that exists at any point is the part you are using" is what I was looking for.
18:15	pjb3	or maybe that would just be overloading that method name too much
18:15	pjb3	but (first even? [1 2 3]) makes sense to me
18:16	dthomas	Thanks walters, Chousuke, rhickey.
18:16	rhickey	dthomas: keep in mind the caveat about holding onto the head though, as doing so will keep all of the realized seq alive
18:16	dthomas	Now I just have to figure out how to translate that Python to a lazy-cons where I can't rebind page.
18:17	dthomas	rhickey: Dumb question: by "head" you mean the head of the lazy-cons itself, not the first value in the lazy sequence, right?
18:18	rhickey	dthomas: right
18:25	Chousuke	meh. I just can't figure out a reliable way to determine what symbols are generated by 'destructure :/
18:26	Chousuke	I suppose the only way to determine what symbols it actually binds (other than its own gensyms) would be to write my own 'destructure clone that keeps track of the names. :(
18:26	Chousuke	Something that, looking at the implementation of 'destructure, I don't want to do.
18:27	gnuvince_	Where is it defined that things like Strings and arrays implement seq?
18:28	meredydd	dthomas: I can't get lisppaste.org to work
18:29	Chousuke	gnuvince_: they don't. (seq? "foo") returns false
18:29	Chousuke	meredydd: don't use the paste-to-channel feature.
18:30	Chousuke	it seems to be broken
18:30	hiredman	seq knows how to make seqs out of strings and arrays
18:30	meredydd	aha
18:30	meredydd	In any case, it's a one-liner:
18:30	meredydd	(filter result-is-relevant? (reduce concat (pages-from-search query)))
18:30	meredydd	then just make (pages-from-search) return a lazy seq of the pages, etc
18:30	hiredman	most functions that operate on seqs call seq on the args first
18:30	gnuvince_	Chousuke: I meant the Seq interface: you can do (first "hello") and (rest (to-array [1,2,3]))
18:31	dthomas	meredydd: I like reduce + concat. But how do you stop the first time result-is-relevant? returns false?
18:32	Chousuke	gnuvince_: as hiredman said, 'first calls 'seq on its argument
18:32	Chousuke	dthomas: that version doesn't doesn't stop.
18:32	Chousuke	dthomas: you'll have to use the find-first defined above
18:32	meredydd	dthomas: change that (filter) into a (take-while)
18:32	Chousuke	or that. :p
18:33	meredydd	That will give you the seq up until the first non-relevant result.
18:33	dthomas	take-while, awesome. That's exactly what I needed and didn't want to figure out how to write myself.
18:34	Chousuke	no-one can help me with my problem? :(
18:34	meredydd	What are you trying to do, Chousuke?
18:35	Chousuke	figure out what names are bound by a binding form
18:35	meredydd	Why?
18:35	Chousuke	http://paste.lisp.org/display/70528 here is something that "works", but is prone to failure
18:35	dthomas	Oh, OK, take-while's implementation is embarassingly simple.
18:36	Chousuke	meredydd: it might be useful for macros that create context.
18:36	Chousuke	meredydd: I'm trying to figure out if I can make with-open support destructuring :)
18:37	Chousuke	I did it for simple [a b c d] binding forms but full destructuring support is more difficult. :/
18:37	meredydd	How so? Give me an example of the fantasy syntax you want to implement.
18:38	meredydd	And does the version you posted there not work? Seems no more ugly than is necessitated by what you're trying to do.
18:39	meredydd	My only comment is that this is tripping my "this is a question to which all the answers are ugly; are you sure you're asking the right question?" sense
18:41	rottcodd	it would be nice if into-array had an optional type arg for cases where coll is potentially empty
18:42	hiredman	uh
18:42	hiredman	wha?
18:42	rhickey	rottcodd: it does now, (doc into-array)
18:43	rottcodd	ah, thanks
18:44	Chousuke	meredydd: http://paste.lisp.org/display/70528#1
18:45	meredydd	Oh, and rhickey? A belated thank-you-very-very-much for AOT.
18:46	Chousuke	meredydd: my question is simple: how do I get a list of the names bound by a given binding form?
18:46	rhickey	meredydd: you're welcome!
18:46	Chousuke	the answer, as you can see, is not as simple :(
18:46	Chousuke	unless there's some magic I'm unaware of.
18:58	meredydd	Chousuke: Well, the simplest way would be to separate a binding list into assignees (first element, third, fifth, etc) and values (second, fourth)
18:58	meredydd	then descend into the assignees and pull out everything that's a symbol.
18:59	meredydd	I think that should work.
18:59	meredydd	(rather than relying on (destructure), which isn't very official or supported IIRC)
19:05	hiredman	hwa
19:06	hiredman	my unicode issues are a reult of using jline
19:06	hiredman	result
19:09	Chousuke	meredydd: but that would mean rewriting destructure :P
19:09	danlei	how would one just run a simple function in a thread? i tried things like (.start (Thread. (pr 'hello))), but that won't do
19:09	Chousuke	meredydd: which is not simple at all
19:09	meredydd	Chousuke: No, it wouldn't. You just ignore the keywords, and pick out all the symbols.
19:09	danlei	+ #
19:10	Chousuke	meredydd: but what if someone wants to bind a symbol as the value of another symbol? :/
19:11	hiredman	last I checked the printing functions did not work in other threads, I think you need to explicitly bind out, or something
19:11	meredydd	You just want the bound symbols' names, right? You don't want to actually get their value expressions. So you can safely ignore all the keywords, and the values in map binding expressions, etc
19:11	danlei	hiredman: thanks
19:11	Chousuke	hmm, right.
19:12	Chousuke	binding always happens in pairs, right?
19:13	hiredman	danlei: nm
19:13	danlei	is there an equivalent to cl's #. ?
19:13	hiredman	danlei: forget that about binding out
19:13	danlei	or how would i bind out?
19:13	danlei	hm
19:13	danlei	ok
19:14	hiredman	(.start (java.lang.Thread. #(prn :x))) prints :x here
19:14	danlei	not for me
19:14	danlei	but i'm is slime, in cl i've got do bind standard-output with sharpdot-reader (#.)
19:15	danlei	how would i do that in clojure/slime?
19:15	hiredman	danlei: try prn instead of pr
19:15	hiredman	pr doesn't print here
19:15	danlei	(.start (java.lang.Thread. #(prn :x)))
19:15	danlei	will just output nil, prints nothing here
19:16	danlei	i guess it'll work on the blank command line, i'll check
19:16	danlei	yes, it does
19:17	danlei	so it boils down to binding clojures equivalent to standard-output to slimes
19:17	danlei	it gets printed in the inferior-lisp buffer
19:18	danlei	is there a way to access a value at read-time?
19:23	rottcodd	danlei: I use M-x slime-redirect-inferior-output
19:24	danlei	rottcodd: perfect, thank you!
19:30	Chousuke	hmmh
19:30	Chousuke	(remove #(or (keyword? %) (= '& %)) (flatten (map #(if (map? %) (seq %) %) (map first (partition 2 form)))))) <- not very clean, but that should leave me with just the symbols in a binding expression.
19:31	Chousuke	anyone spot anything fishy? :p
20:29	Chouser	Chousuke: does that handle :keys, :syms, :strs ?
21:42	scgilardi	Chousuke: in my patch to allow destructuring in the "binding" form, I distinguished the generated symbols by attaching metadata to them. Of course that required modifying destructure, but I thought I'd mention that the need has come up before. http://tinyurl.com/5uyke5
21:55	grkz	/part
21:55	grkz
22:26	jtoy	hi guys, im coming from ruby, how do you build larger programs in clojure? I onyl know about oop systems, is there papers/articles i can read that relate this to clojure?
22:38	gnuvince_	jtoy: with functions and macros and multimethods and the rich data structures.
23:18	topo	oh
23:18	topo	theres a lot of people in this channel
23:18	topo	hello
23:19	Chouser	hi
23:30	topo	hello
23:30	topo	i just download clojure for macosx
23:30	topo	how can i make it work?
23:30	topo	theres a .jar archive but nothin happens when i run it
23:30	Chouser	add clojure.lang.Repl to your command line
23:30	albino	how are you running it?
23:31	albino	Does java -jar /path/to/clojure.jar still work?
23:31	albino	that's how I'm used to invoking it
23:31	topo	just click 2 times in the .jar
23:32	topo	so i do program in my command line?
23:32	topo	oh
23:32	topo	i need java?
23:33	albino	topo: yes, clojure runs on the java virtual machine
23:33	topo	albino do you have macosx?
23:33	albino	topo: no, I'm on linux
23:33	albino	topo: but java kind of takes the os out of the equation after you figure out how to get it for your specific platform
23:35	topo	i got this:
23:35	topo	toppos-computer:live-coding-lisp topo$ java -jar /users/topo/desktop/clojure/clojure.rar
23:35	topo	Unable to access jarfile /users/topo/desktop/clojure/clojure.rar
23:35	topo	oh jar
23:35	topo	haha
23:35	danlei	and capital U
23:36	topo	oh i got user==>
23:36	topo	cool
23:36	topo	whats that?
23:36	topo	can i program lisp there?
23:36	topo	like the repl?
23:36	Chouser	topo: you're going to have to go read some docs or watch a screencast or something.
23:36	danlei	it's called a repl, you can type expressions, it will evaluate and print the result
23:36	danlei	try (+ 1 2)
23:36	topo	oh nice
23:36	topo	it works
23:36	topo	cool
23:36	topo	yes
23:37	Chouser	topo: do you know lisp?
23:37	topo	can i port my opengl app from common lisp to clojure?
23:37	topo	is that possible?
23:37	topo	and making java applets?
23:37	topo	is that possible?
23:38	topo	chouser yes i been experimenting with common lisp
23:38	Chouser	topo: ok, Clojure is not CL. There are many differences, some subtle, some not. Don't expect CL code to just work.
23:39	Chouser	there are OpenGL libs for Java, so Clojure can use those easily. That should be possible.
23:39	topo	does it have macros?
23:39	danlei	yes
23:39	topo	cool
23:39	topo	im gonna read a tutorial
23:39	topo	looks interesting
23:43	danlei	everytime i do some sort of (.get (... (.invokeAll pool ...))) threr is a reflection warning. (reference to get ...), can i ignore that? if yes, can i surpress it?
23:44	Chouser	danlei: you must be using slime
23:44	danlei	Chouser: yes, i am
23:44	Chouser	You can ignore it. The reflection warning indicates a performance hit at runtime.
23:44	danlei	ah, ok
23:45	danlei	can i avoid getting it printed every time?
23:45	Chouser	I don't have slime, but you can try (set! warn-on-reflection false)
23:45	danlei	ah, that did it. thanks, chouser
23:46	Chouser	I think it's a mistake for slime to have in on by default -- the regular REPL doesn't.
23:46	danlei	ok, thanks
23:46	Chouser	To avoid the runtime hit, look into type hints. But don't bother unless you really need the performance -- they're ugle.
23:46	Chouser	ugly
23:47	danlei	ok. i'll just ignore it, for the time being
23:48	Chouser	good choice. :-)
23:48	danlei	=)