#clojure – 2008-11-07

2008-11-07

00:01	Chouser	yes, .clj files in .jars will be found by require and use
00:03	djkthx	cool
00:03	djkthx	and if someone has clojure, could they run it from java?
00:09	Chouser	you can actually bundle clojure and your code into a single .jar, and the user won't even have to know clojure's in there. it'll just run like a java .jar
00:09	djkthx	awesome
00:21	pmf	I've uploaded a patch to the files-section of the group that fixes the behaviour of gen-class when a field to be exposed via :exposes is not declared in the immediate superclass, but somewhere in the ancestors.
00:30	Chouser	pmf: it'd be best to announce that on the group
00:30	Chouser	along with the file name
00:32	pmf	URL of the uploaded file is http://clojure.googlegroups.com/web/genclass-exposes-fix.patch
00:34	pmf	For some reason, I can upload files to the group, but am unable to post there (get an error email from GOOG).
00:56	H4ns	lisppaste8: url
00:56	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
04:32	Lau_of_DK	Top of the morning gents :)
04:42	hoeck	good morning Lau_of_DK
07:42	Lau_of_DK	rhickey, pure interest question, how long did it take you to write ants, start to finish?
07:43	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: a couple of hours
07:43	Lau_of_DK	Impressive...But perhaps its an advantage have written the language your working in, thanks
07:48	Lau_of_DK	rhickey, now that Ive got you: Will you consider letting print/println return whats being printed instead of nil
07:49	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: probably not
07:49	Lau_of_DK	rhickey: May I ask why ?
07:49	rhickey	you can ask
07:50	H4ns	one good reason is (print & more)
07:50	rhickey	print et al are not functions, they do IO, they can take multiple args, there's no more reason to return the thing being printed than the stream being printed to etc
07:51	H4ns	rhickey: if it'd be (print object), it would be convenient to return the object, too. this makes it easy to insert printing for debug purposes, at almost arbitary places
07:52	H4ns	rhickey: but i like (print & more) better, as it is more helpful in the general case. one can always define a debug-printing macro that drt and only accepts one argument
07:52	H4ns	(not that i've been asked) :)
07:53	rhickey	right, a debug print would be a macro and could do that
07:55	alvin-x	was Clojure at work on election night?
07:56	rhickey	alvin-x: I cannot discuss the details of that system, sorry
07:58	alvin-x	no problem
07:59	Lau_of_DK	rhickey, alright I see your point. My exact situation was actually trying to debug something, and then ended up causing more errors because of prints behavior. Is there a debug macro I could use instead?
08:17	gnuvince	Good morning
08:24	rhickey	gnuvince: hey
08:25	gnuvince	How's everybody doing?
08:28	alvin-x	looking forward to the weekend and the new Bond movie :)
08:29	gnuvince	Ooh, yeah!
08:34	Lau_of_DK	H4ns, have a good flight :)
08:34	gnuvince	Too bad the beta costs money
08:35	gnuvince	I like how the Bryan O'Sulllivan, Don Stewart and the other gentleman whose name I cannot recall did with "Real World Haskell": directly online with a per-paragraph comment system.
08:51	aperotte	If I wanted to do some heavy numerical computations in clojure, what would be the best approach? Writing it in java, using type hints, or coercions?
08:53	rhickey	aperotte: you can use the primitive support in your inner loops to get the same perf as Java, then wrap in a function of macro wrapper lib for ease of use/expressivity. You'll probably want to stick with (Java) arrays of primitives for best results
08:58	aperotte	rhickey: just to be sure I understand. If I want to do something like a matrix vector multiplication, I'd represent the matrix and vector as java arrays of primitives (by coercion), and write a function or macro whose inner loop(s) perform the computation.
09:01	rhickey	aperotte: not exactly sure what you mean by coercion, but yes, you can use arrays of primitives directly, and use amap/areduce, as shown here: http://clojure.org/java_interop
09:01	rhickey	see the section: Support for Java Primitives
09:02	aperotte	rhickey: Thanks, I think I got it. I got coercion from that page at the bottom (ie. using (int x) to use a primitive type)
09:06	aperotte	rhickey: p.s. Thanks for clojure in general. I'm sure you've heard this before, but it's exactly what I've been looking for.
09:07	rhickey	you're welcome!
09:19	Cark	question : in the ns macro, is there a one liner to specify i want to require 'cara.dialog and filter to get only the show-message symbol imported ?
09:23	rhickey	Cark: yes, using the :use option with :only
09:23	Cark	i tried =P
09:23	Cark	(:use (cara.language :only (lgstr add-strings)))
09:24	Cark	and (:use cara.language :only (lgstr add-strings))
09:24	Cark	but that does not work
09:25	rhickey	(:use [cara.language :only (lgstr add-strings)]) ?
09:26	Cark	that's it...thanks a lot
09:26	Cark	maybe a better example in the doc would be usefull
09:27	Cark	couldn't find any such bracket to give me a hint
09:27	Cark	and it's not consistent with :refer or :import
09:29	rhickey	Cark: yeah, (doc require) describes the libspec format, but has no example of that
10:36	Chouser	I can only extract the vaguest of gists from Haskell code. Syntax is tiring to learn.
10:37	rhickey	Chouser: I agree, the syntax is write-only, so much parsing required to read
10:38	Chouser	I think I understand the basics of that IO stream slideset, but I'm not terribly confident.
10:42	danlarkin	hah tell me about it... I'm reading a paper on parser combinators and the haskell code used in examples is not making it easier to understand
10:55	djkthx	is there something i need to have enabled to have [ret] go to a newline and indent with clojure-mode on emacs?
11:00	gnuvince	djkthx: you need to remap it.
11:01	gnuvince	My elisp-fu is rusty, but it should be something like (global-set-key [ret] 'newline-and-indent)
11:01	gnuvince	It's been a while since I used Emacs.
11:03	drewr	Chouser: Can you not permalink in your clojure log anymore?
11:03	drewr	How do I link to a paragraph? (FF3)
11:10	Chouser	drewr: you can either use #05:23b type syntax or #05:23b-14:03
11:11	Chouser	either way you may need to reload once you've built the url to see it work.
11:11	drewr	OK.
11:12	drewr	It's that new Clojure-Firefox integration.
11:15	djkthx	thanks gnuvince
11:15	djkthx	it was "\r"
11:15	djkthx	but it works now
11:21	Chouser	rhickey: do you have any thoughts on deprecating .. (in favor of ->) ?
11:30	gnuvince	djkthx: happy to know I was in the ballpark :) I've not used Emacs in two years after pain in my wrists and pinky finger made it impossible to continue using it.
11:30	djkthx	that sucks
11:30	djkthx	what do you use now?
11:30	gnuvince	Went back to vim.
11:31	djkthx	gotcha
11:31	gnuvince	I was a vim user who converted to Emacs and who came back.
11:31	djkthx	yeah, i primarily use vim, but lisp-y stuff seems so much nicer in emacs
11:31	gnuvince	I'll be writing a book about it: "There and back again"
11:31	gnuvince	:)
11:31	djkthx	haha
11:31	gnuvince	Yeah, Emacs is way ahead of vim when it comes to any language that has a REPL.
11:32	gnuvince	and Lisp support in Emacs is great.
11:33	drewr	And that's using it 8-10 hours a day.
11:34	gnuvince	drewr: there are some factors that come into
11:34	gnuvince	play
11:43	duck1123	I've had some days where my left pinky was so sore after working all day in emacs
11:45	drewr	Maybe it's the intense pre-work finger workout I subject myself to.
11:49	Chousuke	If I didn't use caps lock as control I probably couldn't use emacs for longer than few minutes at a time :/
11:49	drewr	Chousuke: No doubt.
11:50	duck1123	My caps lock is my meta key for stumpwm
11:51	gnuvince	I have capslock mapped to control
11:51	gnuvince	and I used my ring finger
11:52	gnuvince	but I always kept my pinky curled up
11:52	duck1123	is your control still a control?
11:52	drewr	gnuvince: Why not use your pinky? My wrist and my fingers barely move because everything is in the right place.
11:53	gnuvince	drewr: small hands
11:53	duck1123	I think the frustration trying to break that muscle memory would be worse than any RSI it might save
11:53	drewr	gnuvince: That seems to be even more reason to use the pinky.
11:54	gnuvince	drewr: small hands, little strength
11:54	gnuvince	anyway
11:54	Chousuke	having caps lock as control has become a requirement for me... Caps lock only really caused annoyance :/
11:54	gnuvince	I'm very comfortable in vim now.
11:54	drewr	Heh. I like vim too.
11:54	gnuvince	SLIME would be nice, but I'll trade that for being able to play the guitar and stuff when I'm 40 :)
11:55	drewr	gnuvince: Maybe my guitar playing is what keeps my fingers strong enough for Emacs. :-)
11:57	gnuvince	:)
11:57	Chousuke	kotarak is working on some improved REPL support for vim/clojure I think. he has chimp on his site, but he said he's working on "gorilla" now.
11:59	gnuvince	drewr: one thing that really wears out my pinky is that with my keyboard binding (french canadian), / is done with Shift-3 and I do that chord with pinky-index
12:00	gnuvince	so that's a lot of shifting in a day
12:02	duck1123	I've been tempted to buy one of those gamer's keyboards for using with emacs
12:21	danlarkin	kotarak: just the man I want to speak to
12:22	kotarak	danlarkin: who? me? must be misunderstanding! ;)
12:22	danlarkin	I stumbled upon your parser combinator library last night
12:22	danlarkin	it's a nice piece of work
12:23	kotarak	unfortunately, it doesn't get the time slice of my spare time, it deserves. :/
12:23	danlarkin	yes I noticed it's using some old idioms
12:24	kotarak	It's in a transition state...
12:24	danlarkin	oh are you working on it?
12:25	kotarak	yes, but the last change of in september or so...
12:26	kotarak	As soon as I get some time off from Gorilla and ClojureCheck, I will continue on Parser.
12:28	gnuvince	kotarak: What is Gorilla?
12:29	kotarak	successor of Chimp. With both way information flow, Repl inside a Vim, buffer etc...
12:29	gnuvince	ok
12:29	gnuvince	that's interesting, we were just talking about SLIME and how us vim users didn't have it
12:33	SnowBuddy	I have something like this: (take-while !nil (all-lines-from file)), where !nil is defined as (defn !nil [x] (not (nil? x))). is there a function that already gives me the same effect as !nil that I just haven't seen?
12:33	kotarak	gnuvince: on http://tinyurl.com/5ma9d8 there is a short screencast, with my initial prototype. Currently I'm working make it usable for someone who's not me...
12:34	Chousuke	heh
12:34	kotarak	SnowBuddy: (complement nil?) (not that is shorter)
12:34	rhickey	SnowBuddy: (comp not nil?), or maybe identity
12:34	Chousuke	kotarak: I tried cloning your hg repo but make fails :/
12:35	Chousuke	it just says Makefile:40: *** missing separator. Stop.
12:35	kotarak	Chousuke: which hg repo?
12:35	kotarak	Chousuke: this a BSD makefile, no GNU makefile
12:35	Chousuke	gorilla's; using the url I found on your site
12:35	Chousuke	right.
12:35	Chousuke	I suspected that. need to get bsd make then.
12:35	kotarak	Chousuke: hmm... give until tomorrow.
12:35	Chousuke	oh, no I don't. it's there already :D
12:36	kotarak	Chousuke: then I will put up a jar.
12:36	kotarak	Chousuke: then there's no need for the make. :)
12:36	Chousuke	I seem to be missing shtool too. :)
12:37	SnowBuddy	ok, so other options are just alternative ways of writing the same thing then?
12:37	rhickey	SnowBuddy: identity isn't
12:38	danlarkin	kotarak: is Parser in a usable state right now? I've only skimmed through your code and examples so far, haven't tried to run anything yet
12:39	rhickey	SnowBuddy: and re: all-lines-from-file see line-seq
12:39	duck1123	identity would also fail on false, right?
12:39	rhickey	duck1123: yes, but for his lines use would be ok
12:40	rhickey	presuming string or nil
12:41	SnowBuddy	rhickey: so something like (take-while #(identity %) (line-seq file)) then?
12:41	SnowBuddy	it took me a moment to grok how identity solves the problem ;)
12:41	rhickey	SnowBuddy: just (take-while identity ...)
12:43	SnowBuddy	rhickey: ah, I see. on a style note, how does (take-while identity ...) compare to (take-while !nil ...) in terms of readability?
12:44	duck1123	"while it's there, take this..." is how I mentally translate it
12:45	duck1123	vs. "while it's not nill, take this..."
12:46	rhickey	I prefer identity when false isn't involved, else (complement nil?) - prefer standard fns
12:46	SnowBuddy	rhickey: what do you mean by "when false isn't involved"?
12:46	rhickey	but I think all-lines-from-file is suspect, not using seqs
12:48	rhickey	(filter identity [1 2 false nil 6])
12:48	rhickey	(filter (complement nil?) [1 2 false nil 6])
12:51	SnowBuddy	all-lines-from boils down to a repeatedly on readLine. so in the first filter are false and nil treated as the same while in the second they're unique?
12:57	Chouser	SnowBuddy: right.
12:58	Chouser	line-seq is a standard function that also does readLine repeatedly.
12:59	kotarak	danlarkin: Parser is not really usable at the moment.
13:00	kotarak	Chousuke: the makefile more some convenience for internal usage....
13:01	SnowBuddy	I'm still learning what all the standard functions are and what they do. looking at line-seq, it uses lazy-cons and a recursive call instead of the repeatedly I was using. what's the difference?
13:01	danlarkin	kotarak: aw :-/
13:01	gnuvince	Has anyone started a style guide for Clojure?
13:02	Chousuke	kotarak: I managed to build the .jar and run the socketrepl but I can't figure out how to run the actual vim repl :/
13:02	drewr	gnuvince: boot.clj :-)
13:02	gnuvince	:)
13:02	Chouser	rhickey: I just finished the binding-vector audit and patch. fixing up the doc strings now.
13:03	kotarak	Chousuke: In a clojure buffer \sr
13:03	gnuvince	Specifically, I'm wondering if (. obj method), (. obj (method)) or (.method obj) is prefered
13:03	Chouser	there weren't as many as I thought
13:03	rhickey	Chouser: cool! thanks
13:04	kotarak	danlarkin: I'm working on it. :) Patience, I say! ;)
13:05	drewr	gnuvince: I think the latter. (. obj (method)) is probably from code that hasn't been updated.
13:06	Chousuke	kotarak: hmm, for some reason vim doesn't seem to be detecting clojure files properly now... need to fix that first I suppose.
13:07	gnuvince	drewr: cool, that's actually my favorite ;)
13:08	drewr	Yeah, it's the lispiest.
13:08	drewr	Very CLOS-like.
13:09	duck1123	(new Object) or (Object.) ?
13:10	kotarak	I prefer new, but the dot-notation is wide-spread
13:17	Chousuke	kotarak: I'm trying to run it but it says "pattern not found: print-method" :/
13:20	kotarak	Chousuke: sounds like broken, keyboard mapping...
13:20	kotarak	Chousuke: just a sec
13:21	kotarak	Chousuke: try to run it manually, :call GorillaStartRepl()
13:21	danlarkin	kotarak: I guess while I wait I can learn a little more about how it works :) it's mostly still over my head at this point
13:21	Chousuke	kotarak: well that worked
13:22	kotarak	danlarkin: one get the hang of it, you see combinators all over the place. :)
13:23	kotarak	Chousuke: <C-CR> send to the Clojure instance, <C-Up> goes in history, <C-Down> goes down, never ever send two things at the same time!
13:24	Chousuke	I get "IndexError: (eval):66:in `[]': index 0 out of buffer" :/
13:25	Chousuke	ah right
13:25	Chousuke	that was because I had an extraneous newline
13:26	abrooks	kotarak: Is Gorilla publicly available now?
13:26	kotarak	Chousuke: as I said: prototype. I'm working making it more robust right now. Hopefully I have something tomorrow. (I wanted to have something already this week....)
13:26	kotarak	abrooks: not really.
13:26	kotarak	abrooks: you can have a look at http://kotka.de/projects/clojure/gorilla.html, but you won't have fun...
13:27	abrooks	kotarak: Okay. Should I keep an eye out in the Clojure Group for your announcement when it is?
13:27	Chousuke	kotarak: well, I wasn't expecting it to be perfect. Still, looks promising.
13:27	abrooks	kotarak: Hehe. :)
13:27	kotarak	abrooks: yes. I will send an announcement
13:29	kotarak	Chousuke: the biiig improvement over chimp is: it's two-way. With Chimp the information goes only in one-way - out of Vim. Since it's via network, one can also do remote repling, independent of Windows or Unix or Mac, or via a ssh tunnel or whatever
13:32	abrooks	kotarak: I use (and enjoy) Chimp. I create splits in my Chimp session and can use Screen to copy stuff back and forth.
13:32	Chousuke	hmm
13:33	abrooks	kotarak: It's a lot less smooth than going back-and-forth between Vim buffers since I have to shift from Vim to Screen to Vim key bindings but I do use it bidirectionally.
13:33	kotarak	abrooks: yes, but for example auto-completion with display of arglists (omni-completion), etc, is not possible with Chimp.
13:33	Chousuke	oops. I managed to send java into an infinite loop again.
13:33	abrooks	kotarak: Absolutely. And I'm looking forwards to Gorilla for that reason. :)
13:34	kotarak	Chousuke: that's possible if you send something like this: Gorilla=> :a :b
13:34	kotarak	Then vim and clojure get out of sync.
13:34	kotarak	I'm still working on that one....
13:34	danlarkin	Chousuke: I think we all do that more than we'd care to admit
13:35	Chousuke	the repl kind of encourages it
13:35	Chousuke	since it's so easy to experiment.
13:35	abrooks	Yeah, infinite, lazy seqs are landmines for the forgetful or typo prone...
13:35	kotarak	abrooks: In the beginning I want to first make Chimp and Gorilla equivalent in functionality. Then I will start to implement additional things like omni-completion.
13:36	kotarak	Or maybe ballons with docstrings...
13:36	Chousuke	some way to tell clojure to abort evaluation might be useful.
13:36	abrooks	Oooo. :)
13:38	danlarkin	Chousuke: now you're talking
13:38	danlarkin	I like that in python C-c raises a KeyboardInterrupt exception
13:39	danlarkin	and brings you back to the repl
13:39	Chouser	there was some discussion of that on the group some months ago
13:52	rhickey	there's print-length now
14:11	AWizzArd	Hello
14:11	Lau_of_DK	Hey AWizzArd
14:11	AWizzArd	Good evening Lau
14:11	kotarak	hi wizz, hi lau
14:12	AWizzArd	Moin Kota
14:12	Lau_of_DK	Ola Kota
14:12	AWizzArd	everyone is slowly waking up :-)
14:12	Lau_of_DK	Friday night, time for coding!
14:13	AWizzArd	qt?
14:13	Lau_of_DK	Hmm, Im as far with Qt now as I need
14:14	Lau_of_DK	I have the designer integrated, I have webkit running, I have hooked slots/signals to anonymous functions. So, its functional as far as smaller fancy GUIs go :)
14:14	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: is that code posted anywhere?
14:14	Lau_of_DK	yea, I put it all in /home/lau
14:14	Lau_of_DK	:)
14:21	sohail	Lau_of_DK, paste.lisp.org man!
14:21	Lau_of_DK	I need to compile the whole thing and comment it, giving credit where credit is due, before I unleash it
14:21	Lau_of_DK	But there are problems with Qt at the core, which makes me a bit cautious to distribute
14:24	sohail	Lau_of_DK, what problems?
14:26	Lau_of_DK	The signal/slot system does not throw errors. If somethings fails it will be silently dropped. If a slot throws an error, QApplication ignores it.
14:27	Lau_of_DK	QObjects are non-thread-safe - Objects spawned in 1 thread can only be called from that thread ( this is probably fixable/patchable), but as of yet its a real problem
14:27	Lau_of_DK	Some of these issues, especially with slots, quire alot of work and attention before being industry grade, and Im not sure anybody will put that work in, or just instead start using it as is, and by doing so throwing all clojure concurrency guarantees overboard
14:30	sohail	Lau_of_DK, they did that by design
14:31	sohail	I still don't understand it
14:31	sohail	maybe it helps in thread-safety or something
14:31	sohail	and yeah for slots throwing errors, you need to basically wrap all your slots somehow
14:32	sohail	Python has a really nice "unhandled exception" handler which does this very nicely for pyqt
14:32	sohail	I doubt clojure has something similar
14:33	Lau_of_DK	If it could be written in a good way, Im all for it. But Ive seen a few people just jump allover Qt (incl me), which might not be so good
14:33	Lau_of_DK	But Im no expert :) Im just sharing a concern
14:33	sohail	I don't understand what you mean by "jump all over Qt"
14:34	Lau_of_DK	I read a blogspot which celebrated that there was now a Lisp with Qt in it, and gave an example of a GUI and such, without any mention of any of these restrictions, and that gives an inaccurate view of the platform
14:35	sohail	lol, that's probably me
14:35	Lau_of_DK	oh :)
14:35	sohail	the one thread-per QObject is nothing you can change
14:35	AWizzArd	what does this mean? One thread per QObj?
14:36	sohail	means that a QObject may only be used from one thread
14:36	AWizzArd	hmm
14:36	Chouser	for what it's worth, I expect all those issues could be handled pretty well with a single well-thought-out lib.
14:36	AWizzArd	is it not good if you can run each component of your gui in its own thread?
14:37	AWizzArd	scrollbar, each point in the menu, buttons, etc
14:37	sohail	AWizzArd, all GUI stuff must be done on the main thread
14:37	sohail	but QObjects aren't always GUI threads
14:37	AWizzArd	and what about swing?
14:37	sohail	same, iirc
14:37	sohail	I think all GUI frameworks do that
14:37	AWizzArd	so it's nothing special to point out then?
14:38	sohail	nope
14:38	sohail	Lau_of_DK, as for signals/slots, yes Qt pretends exceptions don't exist
14:38	Lau_of_DK	Chouser, thats worth alot
14:38	sohail	so you have to do something
14:38	sohail	it's fine to have an unhandled exception handler for clojure-qt or whatever
14:38	Lau_of_DK	Yea, I might look into that as the next project
14:38	sohail	it's not very hard
14:39	sohail	for my qtcl thing, I had one function that all slots went through
14:39	sohail	that's where I did the error handling
14:39	sohail	I think anyway!
14:40	Lau_of_DK	Write it up man
14:41	sohail	hm, no I lied
14:42	sohail	I didn't do the error handling
14:42	Lau_of_DK	You just pretended, like Qt ? :)
14:42	sohail	but had a macro define-slot-handler which generated a cffi:callback which should have done the error handling
14:43	Lau_of_DK	ok
14:45	sohail	and I had a bunch of (define-slot-handler some-name "(SlotArgList)" (:cffi-arg-list)) so: (define-slot-handler activation-reason "(QSystemTrayIcon::ActivationReason)" (:int)) for example.. then any slots that had the arg list of QSystemTrayIcon::ActivationReason would use that one callback (through some other magic)
14:45	sohail	and since I'm sure that makes nos ense, I will take my leave and go debug some multi-threaded code
14:47	Lau_of_DK	Ok :)
14:47	Lau_of_DK	It might make perfect sense, but I cant grapple with it right now, long day
14:48	sohail	Lau_of_DK, I'd like to see what you've done with Qt
14:48	Lau_of_DK	When I have the time and the energy, I'll wrap something up for you, I'll try to get it done this weekend
14:59	AWizzArd	I am running tons and tons of agents. Can I somehow check how much of them are still in the queue?
15:05	Chouser	rhickey: is it intentional that for doesn't support :when and :while at the same time?
15:06	djkthx	does clojure have its own integer square root like isqrt?
15:07	rhickey	Chouser: probably not
15:13	djkthx	also, is there a bit-vector or anything like that?
15:14	rhickey	Chouser: doseq based on for is a perf loss, easiest implementation, I know, but the objective should be imperative version of for
15:16	Chouser	ah, so no laziness inside.
15:16	Chouser	but still :while :when and nesting?
15:17	rhickey	Chouser: that would be best
15:17	rhickey	Chouser: yes, same interface
15:18	Chouser	that would probably be easier for me than trying to understand for well enough to fix the :when-and-:while bug. :-P
15:18	rhickey	Chouser: it's not a bug, but a lack of a feature, so no need to fix yet, but yes, imperative much easier
15:19	Lau_of_DK	rhickey, have you plans on making any more screencasts like the one with Ants, where you similarily would walk through lines of code, explaining them as you go along ?
15:20	kotarak	rhickey: may I ask something rather unprofessional? Are you working in parallel to Clojure development? Or is clojure your main engagement at the moment?
15:21	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: the most recent thought was to conduct some sort of online study group, but it hasn't moved forward due to my schedule recently
15:21	kotarak	rhickey, Lau_of_DK: yeah, there was this netmeeting thing spooking around.
15:21	kotarak	yea, exactly
15:21	Lau_of_DK	rhickey, great, where can I sign up? :)
15:22	kotarak	Lau_of_DK: you considered the time shift?
15:22	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: it's a matter of getting enough people interested who can attend at the same times
15:22	rhickey	kotarak: I do consulting and Clojure
15:22	Lau_of_DK	Alright, well Im pretty flexible, which I'll have to be considering im in CET
15:23	kotarak	note me down also! I'm absolutely interested.
15:24	kotarak	But something earlier than 2 o'clock in the night would be good. (also CET)
15:30	gnuvince	What's a $ in an identifier? Inner-class?
15:31	kotarak	inner class
15:31	rhickey	gnuvince: yes, you'll need $ to reach a nested class
15:31	gnuvince	Thanks.
15:32	gnuvince	rhickey: how much Java do you think a casual Clojure programmer ought to know? I only had one (very bad) semester of Java 1.1 in school 5 years ago.
15:33	rhickey	gnuvince: you need to know very little Java syntax, but should understand the object model and how to read JavaDoc
15:33	gnuvince	OK.
15:34	rhickey	the object model is very simple single inheritance + interfaces
15:34	rhickey	no need to know generics
15:34	kib2_away	rhickey: not so sure (for me indeed), playing ie with Swing if you never touched Java and Clojure before is really hard.
15:34	gnuvince	Just to make sure, inner classes are: class Foo { class Bar { /* I am an inner class */ } }?
15:37	rhickey	kib2_away: well, you do need to know some
15:37	kotarak	the problem with Java is the huge number of classes one has to understand at least a bit. JTree, TreeModel, TreeNode, TreePath, BlaLaberThingyListener, ....
15:37	rhickey	kotarak: that has more to do with Swing than Java per se
15:37	kib2_away	ThisMethodIsRatherBeautifulDontYouThinkSo ?
15:38	gnuvince	I might check out "Head First Into Java" by Kathy Sierra
15:38	kotarak	rhickey: well, that was my closest contact to java up to now. Interfaces and that isn't really a problem.
15:41	kotarak	there was a google tech talk of some Java Guru, talking about interfaces, with a "don't do it like that" example where some Java library needed have a dozen classes to a simple task....
15:42	AWizzArd	kotarak: you could think about not using swing but a browser instead for displaying a gui
15:42	rhickey	kotarak: in the end, whatever pain exists in Java, Clojure can make go away
15:45	kotarak	AWizzArd: bah, I hate those browser guis.
15:47	kotarak	rhickey: Clojure - a painkiller - For risks asks you doctor, side effects are forbidden. (So even better than Aspirin. :)
15:50	Lau_of_DK	kotarak, I'll fire up the T-Shirt printer :)
15:50	duck1123	I like that
15:51	gnuvince	Somebody in the Clojure Book reddit thread mentioned the Joda library. That's a very nice one!
15:52	sohail	joda = yoda?
15:52	gnuvince	I'm not sure if that's what they were going after.
15:53	sohail	my date times you have replaced
15:55	gnuvince	:)
15:55	AWizzArd	kotarak: I think in the past 10 years it were exclusively web applications that made people billionairs
15:55	gnuvince	user=> (Days/daysBetween (DateTime.) (DateTime. 2009 1 20 12 0 0 0))
15:55	gnuvince	P73D
16:00	kotarak	AWizzArd: I was never fond of things, which made others billionairs. (Whether these billions are reallistic or not is another story). I'm sitting in the train, no web, esoteric rays, crappy connection, annoying sluggish interface, .... I'm not a fan of having to be online all the time, to read my mails .... I'd rather have them locally with a goode olde mail reader.
16:00	sohail	AWizzArd, that is really, really ignorant!
16:01	AWizzArd	g
16:01	sohail	billionaire on paper doesn't count
16:01	sohail	I have a company right now that I value at 15 billion and I own half the shares, am I a billionaire?
16:01	sohail	hell no :-)
16:02	Lau_of_DK	sohail, but lets imagine that you were a billionaraire, for a second... can I borrow a few bucks? :)
16:02	AWizzArd	If you are allowed to sell them and if they are worth so much/requested so much you could do it like Bill Gates and sell them for 30 million a day
16:03	sohail	so your only example is someone who didn't make his billions via web apps :-)
16:03	sohail	Lau_of_DK, I didn't get paper rich by giving money away!
16:03	Lau_of_DK	haha
16:04	AWizzArd	I just say they could (if the law allows it) make at least a few millions per day by selling, or not?
16:04	sohail	but you said billions
16:04	sohail	anyway, I've dealt with both web app companies and traditional desktop apps... latter makes many, many times more in my experience
16:04	AWizzArd	no one has billions on his bank account.. your investment manager will "force" you to buy shares and stuff
16:05	Lau_of_DK	Guys, it would be kind of cool it we could get back into a Clojure discussion
16:05	sohail	yeah, so clojure needs to have a good qt interface to make me rich
16:05	Lau_of_DK	Have any of you made some interesting webapps with Clojure ?
16:06	AWizzArd	hmm no, don't know how to do it with the jvm..
16:09	Lau_of_DK	Nobody made anything that runs on a webserver yet?
16:09	sohail	web apps suck
16:10	Lau_of_DK	hmm, I must be gettin forgetful, sohail show me the line where I asked for your oppinion on web apps :)
16:10	sohail	<Lau_of_DK> Have any of you made some interesting webapps with Clojure ? sohail specifically, what do you think about web apps?
16:10	sohail	that's what I saw
16:10	Lau_of_DK	LOOOOOOOL
16:11	Lau_of_DK	Sohail, try this out http://www.sumopaint.com/
16:13	sohail	Lau_of_DK, flash != web app, sorry
16:13	AWizzArd	well, they come with advantages and disadvantages
16:14	AWizzArd	for the user it's nice that he needs no installation and gets gradual updates so easily
16:14	rhickey	let's try to stick to Clojure, please
16:20	Lau_of_DK	What are people in here doing with Clojure atm ?
16:20	Lau_of_DK	Are you all building Swing apps?
16:21	drewr	Migrating massive amounts of data.
16:22	kotarak	Lau_of_DK: mainly libraries, but also a Swing app, and tools for Vim mainly...
16:22	Chouser	procrastinating
16:22	duck1123	I'm working on a web app
16:23	AWizzArd	Lau_of_DK: I am testing performance of agents, and I will need tons of them, cause I am looking into porting my Genetic Programming system from Common Lisp to Clojure
16:23	Lau_of_DK	Sounds like you guys are doing some advanced stuff
16:24	AWizzArd	And I am having memory problems, and maybe rhickey or someone else has an idea why:
16:24	lisppaste8	AWizzArd pasted "Running into problems with the Java Heap" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69919
16:25	AWizzArd	It runs okay when doing a few 100k iterations
16:27	AWizzArd	Could it have to do with (fak 35) resulting in a BigInteger which does not get GCed fast enough?
16:27	rhickey	AWizzArd: you are awaiting nothing
16:27	AWizzArd	I thought await would wait until the current thread finished all agents
16:27	rhickey	agents don't run on the current thread
16:27	rhickey	you can await for specific agents
16:27	AWizzArd	damn, right
16:28	AWizzArd	yes, I usually do that
16:28	AWizzArd	in this example I wanted to use anonymous agents, but anyway, even if I can't time this correctly right now it still runs into memory problems
16:30	rhickey	AWizzArd: you'll have to allocate enough memory to hold your agents, I have problems with -Xmx1024M
16:31	rhickey	I have no problems
16:32	Lau_of_DK	huh? You have problems with -Xmx1024M but you have no problems?
16:33	rhickey	a type
16:33	AWizzArd	I think he means when he runs it with 1g it won't cause memory problems
16:33	rhickey	typo
16:33	AWizzArd	okay, so the problem is in the queue? It stores the calls faster than working them off
16:33	Lau_of_DK	oh
16:33	rhickey	AWizzArd: or whatever, it's just a memory allocation/usage thing
16:33	AWizzArd	good good, that is fine for me
16:34	AWizzArd	I will then configure slime to run clojure always with 1024M
16:34	rhickey	I don't know exactly how much you'll need, but -server and -Xmx can help
16:34	AWizzArd	rhickey: do you see a good reason to not run Clojure with the -server flag when developing?
16:34	rhickey	the important thing is, no problem having that many agents
16:35	rhickey	AWizzArd: I always run with -server
16:35	AWizzArd	yes, I see, that's good news, so it just means I need more memory
16:35	AWizzArd	funny that the default seems to be just these 128mb
16:50	AWizzArd	I remember that I got emacs to show me a gui in which I could configure slime/swank/clojure, but I forgot how to do it. Anyone here maybe knows how?
16:53	Lau_of_DK	If the GUI is called firefox and the contents was the Clojure-wiki, then yes, I can point you in the right direction
16:55	AWizzArd	I was running some emacs command and inside emacs there were some options I could set, for example the path to java, etc
16:57	AWizzArd	ah yes, M-x customize-group swank-clojure
16:57	Lau_of_DK	cool, I'll have to try that out
17:26	AWizzArd	is there a way to see in the repl with what command line arguments Java was started?
17:26	AWizzArd	(like -server -Xmx1024M and so forth)
17:30	rhickey	(.maxMemory (Runtime/getRuntime))
17:30	rhickey	(System/getProperties)
17:36	AWizzArd	thx
17:36	Hun	AWizzArd: customize-group slime
17:36	Hun	oh, you found that already :)
17:37	AWizzArd	yes, but thanks
17:37	Hun	hmm... reading history forwards does not work. backwards neither. any suggestions for better reading? :)
17:39	AWizzArd	Will AOT mean that one can compile all clojure code into .class files and that way is not forced to deliver source code to customers?
17:39	rhickey	AWizzArd: yes
17:40	solkis	What function can I use to determine if a variable has already been bound using def? I need to only initialize something once with an if.
17:41	rhickey	solkis: there is defonce
17:42	solkis	rhickey: thx, that's what I need
17:42	lisppaste8	Chouser pasted "new doseq" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69926
17:42	rhickey	also (.isBound #'foo)
17:43	Chouser	ugleee but it produces good code (re: doseq)
17:44	Chouser	hm, it'd be simpler if I left "when" blocks in but used "true" if no :when or :while was given.
17:44	Chouser	is that too much slower?
17:44	AWizzArd	Good code in what way? You mean efficient?
17:45	rhickey	Chouser: that's what for does IIRC
17:45	rhickey	simpler is better, HotSpot will remove later
17:46	AWizzArd	Btw, are there already any real world apps written in Clojure yet?
17:47	Lau_of_DK	rhickey, apropos the study group you mentioned earlier, where do I sign up?
17:48	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: when I get some time to organize it, I'll post on the group to measure interest
17:48	Lau_of_DK	Alright, I'll be patiently waiting.
17:50	solkis	Anybody know how to restart (basically clear out) a slime environment in emacs? I just want a fresh REPL with nothing yet defined.
17:53	Chousuke	IIRC there was a slime-reset or something like that
17:54	Chousuke	though you could just kill the clojure repl and restart slime.
17:57	AWizzArd	solkis: you could also just delete all vars from within clojure
17:57	solkis	Chousuke: thx
17:58	solkis	AWizzArd: just for fun, how would you do that?
18:01	lisppaste8	solkis pasted "Clojure Java GTK Sample" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69927
18:01	AWizzArd	solkis: (map #(ns-unmap 'user %) (keys (ns-interns 'user))) where 'user is your namespace
18:03	solkis	AWizzArd: thx, I'll figure that one out as an exercise in Clojure :-)
18:03	AWizzArd	it will kill everything in that namespace that you set up via def or defn
18:05	solkis	Also, I just pasted a short example (based on anther one I saw in the archive) using clojure and the java gtk bindings (I'd never used them and I thought it might be fun.) The original Java example was here: http://java-gnome.sourceforge.net/4.0/doc/examples/button/ExamplePressMe.html
18:06	AWizzArd	solkis: or even better is Chousers version: (doseq [n v] (ns-interns ns) (ns-unmap ns n))
18:06	solkis	AWizzArd: thx
18:39	Lau_of_DK	Potentially dumb question: Im sitting here on my very first Dual-core system ever. And I wonder why, if I start up some large computation in Clojure, that it only utilizes 1 CPU 100% and the other is resting at around 20%. ?
18:47	ivan	you're right, that is pretty dumb :)
18:47	ivan	are you expecting it to parallelize?
18:48	Lau_of_DK	I was actually expecting it to use the full capacity of the system - I mean, whats the idea of a high level language anyway ?
18:51	ivan	i really have little clue
18:51	ivan	but http://clojure.org/concurrent_programming suggests that you manage the concurrency for now
18:51	AWizzArd	Lau_of_DK: this is not possible the way you think about it
18:52	Lau_of_DK	You mean in terms of raw power and utilization ?
18:52	AWizzArd	you will need to inform Clojure what exactly it should run
18:52	AWizzArd	Clojure itself will run in only one thread all the time if you don't do anything against that.
18:53	AWizzArd	the problem is: threads cause overhead
18:53	rhickey	AWizzArd: there is pmap and the parallel lib, but otherwise, yes
18:53	AWizzArd	rhickey: sure, and I am adding more parallel mapping functions
18:54	AWizzArd	Lau_of_DK: Clojure should not simply go around and let each function call run in its own thread
18:54	Lau_of_DK	AWizzArd, can you define 'overhead' for me ?
18:54	AWizzArd	if you want to do (count my-vector) then this can be done within a few microseconds
18:55	AWizzArd	but if you would say: hey Clojure, run this in a thread, then some extra work needs to be done
18:55	AWizzArd	your thread has its exclusive copy of "global vars"
18:55	AWizzArd	and some scheduling must be done, etc
18:55	Chousuke	Lau_of_DK: The main problem is, clojure can't tell which operations are safe to parallelise, or whether it makes sense.
18:55	Chousuke	Lau_of_DK: so you need to take care of it manually.
18:55	AWizzArd	so in the end your (count my-vector) in its own thread will take some thousand or ten thousand microseconds
18:56	Lau_of_DK	Okay I get what you guys are saying
18:56	Lau_of_DK	Thanks alot
18:56	AWizzArd	in principle everything should be safe to parallelize in a pure functional environment, but yes, detecting this is also not so easy
18:57	AWizzArd	Lau_of_DK: if you have a function that will run for 1 second or longer, then you could decide to give it its own thread
18:57	AWizzArd	because the administrative work of the JVM of 2 msecs is not important then anymore
18:58	Lau_of_DK	Ok
18:58	AWizzArd	you will benefit of having 2 calls running at the same time and finish after 1.002 seconds, vs 2 secs with just one thread
18:58	AWizzArd	it could be interesting to know where the break-even point is
18:59	Lau_of_DK	But the possibilities for improvements are quite large I see
18:59	AWizzArd	Lau_of_DK: and btw, threads make sense for positive user experience
18:59	Chousuke	there are algorithms that really don
18:59	Chousuke	don't gain benefit from parallelisation
18:59	Lau_of_DK	Yea I know
19:00	AWizzArd	if your application is used by several people at the same time then running their requests in different threads. Just imagine google replying: sorry, can't search because someone else is doing that right now :-)
19:01	AWizzArd	but Clojure makes it very easy for you to run your code in parallel
19:01	Chousuke	functional languages in general make it less troublesome I suppose.
19:01	AWizzArd	exactly
19:03	AWizzArd	In principle we try to make as much code as possible a mathmatical function. It depends only on it's arguments and will always return the same result when given the same args. In that case it doesn't matter on what processor you run (+ 1 3)
19:25	Lau_of_DK	I gots to the hit sack, thanks for all the input guys
20:08	rhickey	Note on SVN rev 1089:
20:08	rhickey	Interim checkin - DO NOT USE!!
20:08	rhickey	Unless you are interested in helping test:
20:08	rhickey	new print-dup functionality for replica generation of compilation constants
20:08	rhickey	new print-dup flag, prints duplicators
20:08	rhickey	back to simplified readably printing for repl
20:08	rhickey	readable fns, as long as they are not closures
20:14	AWizzArd	yummy
20:43	lisppaste8	Chouser annotated #69926 with "simpler doseq" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69926#1
20:55	djkthx	why doesn't this return true?
20:55	djkthx	user> (false? (let [a (make-array (. Boolean TYPE) 10)] (aget a 0)))
20:55	djkthx	false
20:55	djkthx	?
20:56	djkthx	all the values are false in the array
21:02	duck1123	but it's an array of non-zero size
21:03	pjb3	djkthx: false? returns true if it's argument is false, otherwise false
21:03	pjb3	(false? [false]) => true
21:03	pjb3	err (false? [false]) => false
21:03	pjb3	I meant
21:05	pjb3	oh wait, I didn't see the last part of your expression
21:05	djkthx	but i'm just taking one of the elements
21:05	djkthx	yeah
21:06	djkthx	user> (let [a (make-array (. Boolean TYPE) 10)]
21:06	djkthx	user> (let [a (make-array (. Boolean TYPE) 10)] (aget a 0))
21:06	djkthx	false
21:06	djkthx	is what aget returns
21:06	pjb3	(= (. Boolean TYPE) false) => false
21:06	djkthx	ah
21:08	pjb3	(= (new Boolean false) false) => true
21:08	djkthx	yeah
21:09	djkthx	yay, got it working
21:09	djkthx	alright, thanks :)
21:25	djkthx	does anyone have a sample clojure prime sieve function?
21:26	djkthx	i had a nice one in common lisp, but it used type declaration and mutable bit-vectors, which i'm not sure how to replicate in clojure...
21:26	djkthx	i tried copying my CL function, but it wasn't nearly as fast
21:27	djkthx	user> (time (last (sieve 100000)))
21:27	djkthx	"Elapsed time: 5950.069 msecs"
21:27	djkthx	99991
21:27	djkthx	in clojure
21:27	djkthx	NIFTY-FUNS> (time (last (sieve5 100000)))
21:27	djkthx	Evaluation took: 0.001 seconds of real time
21:27	djkthx	0.001421 econds of total run time (0.0(01413 user, 0.000008 system) 100.00% CPU
21:27	djkthx	2,829,528 processor ycles 90,112 bytes consed
21:27	djkthx	(99991)
21:27	djkthx	in sbcl
21:58	djkthx	ah, cool
21:58	djkthx	type declarations helped out quite a bit
22:53	djkthx	is there a tab completion for symbols in clojure-mode?
22:54	drewr	I can ESC-TAB, but that might be SLIME.
22:55	duck1123	M-/
22:55	djkthx	ah, there we go
22:55	djkthx	thanks duck1123
22:56	duck1123	np
22:56	djkthx	do you know the name of the function so i could rebind it to tab?
22:57	duck1123	dabbrev-expand
22:58	duck1123	a little tip. C-h k then a keystroke will give info about the command
22:58	duck1123	C-h c does similar, but only shows minimal info
22:59	djkthx	cool
22:59	djkthx	thanks
23:00	duck1123	you also might want to bind hippie-expand instead
23:00	duck1123	it uses multiple methods
23:00	djkthx	multiple methods?
23:01	djkthx	is that like slime-fuzzy-completion?
23:01	duck1123	there are several different completion algorithms, it'll try them in order
23:01	djkthx	ah
23:01	duck1123	I'm not familiar with that one
23:02	djkthx	i used it with common lisp
23:02	duck1123	also, if you like using [tab] check out pabbrev-mode
23:02	djkthx	typing m-v-b and tab would give multiple-destructuring-bind
23:02	duck1123	I use it all the time with ruby, but havn't gotten around to hooking it to clojure-mode
23:02	djkthx	gotcha
23:09	djkthx	blah, emacs
23:09	djkthx	i can't seem to rebind this stupid key
23:10	duck1123	how are you doing it?
23:10	djkthx	(global-set-key (kbd "TAB") 'dabbrev-expand)
23:10	djkthx	tried dabbrev-completion also
23:11	djkthx	i put it in my run-clojure fun
23:11	djkthx	so it would only redifine it if i was using clojure-slime
23:11	djkthx	redefine*
23:12	duck1123	in that case (define-key clojure-mode-map (kbd "TAB") 'dabbrev-expand)
23:13	duck1123	although I'm not sure if (kbd "TAB") is the right syntax
23:14	djkthx	i believe it is
23:14	duck1123	modify to taste: (add-hook 'clojure-mode-hook '(lambda () (define-key clojure-mode-map (kbd "C-x C-e") 'lisp-eval-last-sexp))))
23:15	djkthx	wait, do i need both?
23:16	djkthx	im not terribly well versed in emacs config stuff...
23:17	duck1123	if you replace that second thing I sent with your commands, it'll load that key binding when clojure-mode is loaded
23:17	djkthx	gotcha
23:17	duck1123	I just copied that out of my init.el file, so I didn't bother fixing it
23:19	djkthx	got it working, thanks :)
23:19	duck1123	cool
23:20	djkthx	i feel ready to get down to some clojure hacking now
23:21	duck1123	I need to set up a global lisp eval binding so I can eval stuff out of irc windows
23:21	djkthx	that'd be pretty slick
23:25	duck1123	ok, someone send a clojure form
23:26	duck1123	(+ 2 2)
23:26	djkthx	(* 1 2 3 4)
23:26	duck1123	didn't work the way I wanted
23:26	djkthx	(map (fn [x] (* x x)) (range 1 10))