#clojure – 2008-11-06

2008-11-06

01:23	Cark	hello
04:50	kib2	hi, did someone read the first chapters and is it worth a look ? http://blog.thinkrelevance.com/2008/11/5/clojure-beta-book-available
06:20	tomppa	hmm, AWT/Java2d seems to produce an awful lot of garbage. At first I thought it was Clojure but luckily it seems that wasn't the case.
06:24	tomppa	ah damn. It was the Clojure side after.. forgot the laziness part in my benchmark
06:33	Lau_of_DK	tomppa, garbage ?
06:34	tomppa	I'm doing some simple performance tests and I get lots of annoying gc pauses
06:34	tomppa	part of it is probably because of awt but I have tried to factor that out
06:35	tomppa	I'm just writing the same thing in mzscheme for comparison
07:01	tomppa	I'm testing a simple particle system, kind of an fireworks effect and currently the mzscheme version seems to be a lot faster than the clojure one and doesn't have much noticiable gc pauses
07:03	tomppa	any clues on how I could improve the performance? I just have a list of particles [[posx posy] [[velx vely]] that I update and draw
07:19	hoeck	tomppa: can you paste your code?
07:19	tomppa	sure, just a sec
07:20	hoeck	tomppa: there is warn-on-reflection and some math primitives
07:22	lisppaste8	tomppa pasted "Fireworks" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69811
07:23	tomppa	I doesn't have all the code, graphics are handled by awt/java2d
07:23	tomppa	... and it isn't meant to look neat. Just a quick test
07:24	Kerris0	just found an online Lisp interpreter http://weblisp.net/
07:25	tomppa	I don't mind if my code is a bit slow but the GC pauses are annoying. mzscheme version is ~identical but doesn't exhibit any gc problems. And is some 3-4 times faster
07:35	tomppa	if someone wants to try it out here's the jar http://www.yellow-hut.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/fireworks.jar
07:45	tomppa	okay, when I set -XX:+UseConcMarkSweepGC it works a lot better. Just, umm, what does that flag do
07:47	tomppa	isn't incremental gc on by default on the client vm?
07:59	tomppa	it seems that none of my extra and classpath args are used when I run clojure-slime
08:01	Chouser	kib2: the book is good. it's still a bit rough at this point, but the narrative flows very nicely. I think it'll be quite good for anyone who wants to learn Clojure.
08:10	kib2	Chouser: thanks, so I'll wait some time and then buy it. See you, I need to go to work :)
08:11	tWip	I think I'll need to buy them in bulk and sneakily distribute them to my coworkers' desks
08:25	jkantz	Q on maps... how would I map across a map, returning another map?
08:26	jkantz	do I need to write something to do this or is there some built-in way?
08:26	rhickey	jkantz: (into {} (map (fn [[k v]] ... [newk newv]) amap))
08:27	jkantz	thks
08:28	rhickey	or: (reduce (fn [m [k v]] ... (assoc m newk newv)) {} amap)
08:29	rhickey	the latter will allow you to conditionally add entries
08:39	Chouser	rhickey: it's nice to have you back.
08:40	rhickey	Chouser: nice to be back!
08:41	gnuvince	good morning
09:22	abrooks	rhickey: How was tabulating? :)
09:25	rhickey	abrooks: it's a lot more than tabulating, but it went well
09:26	abrooks	rhickey: I figured it was more that tabulating. I should have included a wink.
09:29	abrooks	rhickey: Is the system that you were working on part of the federal election system or something used by a private/commercial entity (or something else entirely)?
09:29	rhickey	http://www.exit-poll.net/
09:30	rhickey	it's the exit poll that feeds every networks and newspaper - essentially everything you see about voter opinion on election day
09:30	abrooks	rhickey: Ah, cool. I was going to ask if there was any public information about it. Thanks.
09:39	Lau_of_DK	rhickey, how do you feel Clojure stacks against something like ATS?
09:43	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: do you mean this: http://www.cs.bu.edu/~hwxi/ATS/ATS.html
09:49	Lau_of_DK	yes, although I read about it at www.ats-lang.org
09:49	Lau_of_DK	@ rhickey
09:51	gnuvince	Lau_of_DK: what do you mean by "stacks against"?
09:53	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: never heard of it
09:53	Lau_of_DK	Im thinking pros/cons. ATS looks very (http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64q/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=all) powerful, and like it has some of the same features as Clojure, as in persistant lists
09:56	gnuvince	all the ATS programs I've seen on that benchmark are 10x as long as all the other programs.
09:59	Chouser	seems like a very different language -- staticly typed, compiled, explicit pointer arithmetic, almost certainly no macros.
10:02	gnuvince	Definitely no leveraging existing Java code ;)
10:05	Lau_of_DK	Alright, thanks :)
10:15	rhickey	accepting proposals for sorted version of set and map literals
10:16	Chouser	you want something syntaxy, not just #=(sorted-map 1 2,3 4,5 6)
10:16	Chouser	?
10:17	Chouser	it could be implicit -- if the keys are printed in order, read them into an sorted collection. I'm sure that would never cause nasty surprises.
10:18	Chouser	#>{:a 1, :b 2} ##>{:x :y :z}
10:38	rincewind	the to-do-list mentions: arbitrary symbols in \| \|
10:40	rincewind	there are currently no pipe symbols in the .clj files in trunk i think
10:54	rhickey	Chouser: yes, not #=(sorted...
10:55	rhickey	rincewind: yes, thinking forward to \|whatever including spaces\| as a symbol
10:56	rincewind	when AOT compilation is available, will LispReader.java be ported to clojure?
10:56	rhickey	rincewind: could be, not a top priority though
10:57	rhickey	I guess a long-term goal might be a bootstrapped version of Clojure
10:58	rhickey	but bootstrapping has its own set of complexities, few of which contribute to productivity
10:59	rhickey	Chouser: #>{:a 1, :b 2} #>#{:x :y :z} ?
11:00	Chouser	these are starting to feel a bit like perl, or maybe regex.
11:01	rhickey	yeah
11:01	Chouser	> is nice, but 3 symbols preceding the { is not so much.
11:01	Chouser	#> feels ok
11:02	Chouser	##{:x :y :z} ? less consistent, but fewer chars too
11:02	rhickey	I'm not sure sorted literals are that important, and given the new reader extensibility, at least #=(sorted...) will work
11:03	rhickey	for print/read
11:03	Chouser	actually it doesn't, but I don't understand the new reader enough to know why
11:03	Chouser	(class #=(sorted-map :a 1, :b 2)) -> #=clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap
11:03	rhickey	I do, it's due to compiler interpretation of maps - always yields hash-maps right now
11:03	Chouser	oh, ok.
11:03	rhickey	maps in code are evaluated
11:06	rhickey	these things are all connected, for instance, should sorted-maps in code be evaluated too, especially if there isn't literal syntax for them
11:09	Chouser	ah, subtle. #=(sorted-map (keyword "a") 1) vs. {(keyword "a") 1}
11:10	Chouser	#= is an odd beast that I definitely do not have a feel for yet.
11:10	rhickey	Chouser: It's not intended for use by humans
11:10	Chouser	heh
11:12	rhickey	for instance above, there's no reason for #=
11:13	Chouser	I guess if there was a general warning -- don't use #= literals in your hand-written code -- it wouldn't be too bad for #=(sorted-map ... to skip eval its arguments
11:13	Chouser	yeah
11:13	Chouser	skip eval'ing
11:14	rhickey	In CL, vector literals are constants, if you want evaluation you need to backquote
11:14	rhickey	In Clojure, I decided to make vector and map literals be evaluated
11:15	rhickey	this has been very convenient, returning [a b] etc
11:19	Chouser	yes, I agree. It also feels more like python and javascript, which I imagine has eased many people's transitions.
11:19	danlarkin	Chouser: I can vouch for that
11:19	rhickey	but it's a basic fact that there can't be syntax for everything
11:20	rhickey	(sorted-map ...) works fine when you need it
11:21	rhickey	the few times I've wanted a map other than hash-map for syntax has been when I've wanted array-map for order preservation
11:21	Chouser	yep. And it's nice that #= can help hold back the need for ever more syntax.
11:22	rhickey	the idea behind #=(what you would write anyway) is that you'll never be inclined to write #= yourself
11:24	rhickey	it's strictly for read/print representation
11:25	Chouser	so fixing up the compiler such that #=(sorted-map ...) works should be sufficient.
11:25	rhickey	for some definition of works
11:25	rhickey	I'm leaning towards unevaluated, as-read
11:26	rhickey	constant
11:26	Chouser	yeah
11:30	rhickey	the other side I'm currently mulling over is whether this print-type-preserving shouldn't be separate from print-readably
11:31	Chouser	so 3 modes of printing (not including "pretty")?
11:31	rhickey	at the repl, I'd like all my maps and sets to look the same
11:32	rhickey	but when serializing constants, I need to distinguish precisely
11:34	Chouser	would there be any difference for any type other than sorted mapand sorted set?
11:34	rhickey	sure, array-maps vs hash-maps
11:35	rhickey	maybe different sorted sets with different implementations/perf characteristics
11:35	Chouser	ah, array-maps.
11:35	Chouser	hm.
11:35	rhickey	generally, there will be N implementations
11:35	rhickey	I think the repl should be about the abstractions
11:36	rhickey	that sort of forces to type-annotated serialized versions
11:37	Chouser	but that means this new format really will be just for serialization. Any reason not to hook into Java's serialization at that point?
11:37	rhickey	#=(java.util.HashMap. {:b 2, :a 1}), #=(clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap. {:b 2, :a 1})
11:38	rhickey	Chouser: it's binary, tied to class versions etc
11:39	Chouser	...or at least make the new format compatible with dropping in Java-serialized versions of Java objects that don't have a clojure-print method.
11:39	Chouser	oh, I didn't realize it was binary. bleh.
11:39	rhickey	there is JAvaBeans serialization which is text and extensible, if somewhat verbose
11:39	rhickey	very verbose
11:39	Chouser	that's xml?
11:39	rhickey	too verbose
11:39	rhickey	yeah
11:40	Chouser	could that be used when there's no print-method though?
11:48	rhickey	Chouser: it could, but there's no registry for persistence delegates AFAIK, and the default uses bean properties, not likely to be useful in many cases
11:51	rhickey	Kawa had an efficient way to store constants using Externalizable, but not many built-in classes implement that
11:57	Chouser	you could base64 the binary serialization. #=(deserialize java.Whatever "...")
11:58	Chouser	anyway, that's secondary I guess to the core idea of 3 print types
12:02	Chouser	would print-meta still be optional for the serialize form?
12:02	rhickey	no, that's one of the current todos
12:03	rhickey	this one is that: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/c77604094dba3b6c
12:03	rhickey	metadata not serialized
12:06	Chouser	huh. I couldn't make any sense of that.
12:07	Chouser	so this might make sense as modes on a linear scale from "undecorated" through "serialization": print, print-readably, readably with meta, and serialize
12:07	rhickey	basically the value at the repl gets wrapped in a little fn, which when compiled, serializes the symbol constant, losing its metadata at present
12:08	rhickey	Chouser: yes, that's one way to look at it
12:09	Chouser	auto-indentation would still have to be a separate flag
12:28	rsynnott	has anyone read this new book?
12:33	Chouser	rsynnott: I've read the half that's available.
12:33	rsynnott	I'm vaguely considering buying the PDF
12:34	rsynnott	though I'm not sure whether I actually need it; the website was quite useful
12:56	gnuvince	Chouser: how is it?
12:57	duck1123	does anyone know if you buy the PDF first if you can still get the discount on the print version, or do you have to buy them together
13:21	danlarkin	any better way to make a string of n spaces? (apply str (map (fn [x] \space) (range 4))) n being 4 for this example
13:24	Chouser	danlarkin: (apply str (replicate 4 " "))
13:25	danlarkin	Chouser: perfect, thanks
13:26	Chouser	gnuvince: It's easy to read. I think it's the kind of ground-up tutorial a lot of people have been asking for.
13:31	gnuvince	Chouser: cool
13:31	Chouser	we'll see when it's complete if it's also going to be a good reference.
13:51	drewr	lol. http://twitter.com/dysinger/statuses/993446623
13:52	rhickey	drewr: I think he was just interested in distributed concurrency, which Clojure doesn't provide yet
13:58	rhickey	made AFn's Comparator.compare work with predicates too, true values sorting first (sort > [1 2 3 4]) no longer needs comparator
14:10	AWizzArd	What are AFn's?
14:10	danlarkin	Abstract Functions, I assume
14:10	danlarkin	but I know what happens when one assumes
14:11	danlarkin	so perhaps I should have kept my mouth shut
14:12	AWizzArd	regardless if it stands for Abstract Functions or not: what are Abstract Functions?
14:14	wwmorgan	AFn is the abstract class that all functions inherit from
14:14	cemerick	rhickey: many thanks for that change to sort. very handy
14:21	Chouser	yeah, pretty.
15:04	drewr	Any particular reason why finally can't return a value in case a catch clause was invoked?
15:05	Chouser	you get the specific catch-clause return value instead, right?
15:06	drewr	No, I get a boolean.
15:08	Chouser	this returns "c1": (try (throw (Exception.)) (catch Exception e "c1") (finally "f"))
15:12	drewr	The boolean was coming from the return value of what I thought was causing the exception. I guess it wasn't, though my catch clause was getting invoked.
15:14	fanda	hello all!
15:14	fanda	can I have a question about macros?
15:14	Chouser	danlarkin: go for it
15:14	Chouser	sorry
15:14	Chouser	fanda: go for it :-)
15:14	danlarkin	Chouser: :-o
15:14	fanda	i would like to create a macro 'mac
15:14	fanda	(mac (run-mac 1 2) (do-not-run-fn 1 2))
15:15	fanda	when called like this, if expands run-mac macro
15:15	fanda	but it does not expand/run do-not-run-fn
15:15	fanda	a returns a list with results
15:16	fanda	(list expanded-expression-from-run-mac (do-not-run-fn 1 2))
15:16	fanda	run-mac is a constant name - not any macro
15:17	Chouser	you want the raw symbol list '(do-not-run-fn 1 2) in your result list?
15:17	fanda	yes
15:18	Chouser	(defmacro mac [a b] `(list ~a '~b))
15:18	rhickey	drewr: finally is for cleanup side-effects, it runs even when the (returning) body succeeds, so can't define return
15:19	fanda	thanks Chouser, let me try it, if that is what I need
15:28	drewr	rhickey: AH, good point.
15:30	fanda	Chouser: still not there, I give you the concrete example of what I am trying to do
15:30	fanda	(defmacro equal-pairs [& expr] (map #(cons '= %) (partition 2 expr)))
15:30	fanda	user=> (macroexpand '(equal-pairs 1 1 2 2 1 4))
15:30	fanda	((= 1 1) (= 2 2) (= 1 4))
15:32	fanda	now I want to create a macro: (check (equal-pairs 1 1 2 2 1 4) (= 5 5) (= (+ 1 2) 3))
15:32	fanda	which returns for the start this: '((= 1 1) (= 2 2) (= 1 4) (= 5 5) (= (+ 1 2) 3))
15:33	fanda	it calls the macro equal-pairs and joins its result with all other expressions - unless it is equal-pairs again, which gets called and joined...
15:34	fanda	more advanced version of macro 'check returns a list of (expression result) '(((= 1 1) true) ((= 2 2) true) ((= 1 4) false) ...)
15:34	Chouser	you want "check" to be explicitly aware of the "equal-pairs" and treat it differently from "="?
15:34	fanda	yes, exactly
15:35	Chouser	first of all, I think think there's any need for equal-pairs to be a macro
15:36	Chouser	bah. I mean I equal-pairs can be a fn
15:37	fanda	no, I need to keep both - non-evaluated parameters and evaluated ones
15:37	fanda	user=> (macroexpand '(equal-pairs (+) 0 (+ 1) 1 (+ 1 2) 3))
15:37	fanda	((= (+) 0) (= (+ 1) 1) (= (+ 1 2) 3))
15:39	fanda	otherwise, I would have to quote everything - '(+) '(+ 1) ...
15:41	rhickey	fanda: do you need equal-pairs on its own? can it just be syntax of check?
15:41	Chouser	(defmacro check [& s] (cons `list (map #(if (= (first %) 'equal-pairs) % `(quote ~%)) s)))
15:41	Chouser	but you should listen to rhickey :-)
15:42	Chouser	oh, that's not right. sorry.
15:43	rhickey	Chouser: he shouldn't listen to me?
15:43	rhickey	:)
15:43	AWizzArd	I think he meant the macro
15:44	fanda	just a second guys...
15:46	Chouser	rhickey: that's right, you got a problem with that?
15:51	Chouser	(defmacro check [& s] `'(~@(mapcat #(if (= (first %) :equal-pairs) (for [p (partition 2 (rest %))] (cons '= p)) [%]) s)))
15:51	Chouser	wwwwwuser=> (check (:equal-pairs 1 1 2 2 1 4) (= 5 5) (= (+ 1 2) 3))
15:51	Chouser	((= 1 1) (= 2 2) (= 1 4) (= 5 5) (= (+ 1 2) 3))
15:53	Chouser	or for your original syntax: (defmacro check [& s] `'(~@(mapcat #(if (= (first %) 'equal-pairs) (macroexpand %) [%]) s)))
15:54	Chouser	but that's kinda weird because the equal-pairs macro doesn't really work on its own.
15:54	fanda	yes, it doesn't have to work on its own...
16:12	jgracin	rhickey: rich, could you please verify memfn definition. it seems to me that ~@args should not go into the arglist of lambda form.
16:19	fanda	thanks guys for help!
16:19	fanda	having phone calls and stuff to do...
16:19	fanda	greatly appreciate your help!
16:42	rhickey	jgracin: methods aren't variadic - the args to memfn are names used to make a specific-arity call
16:46	jgracin	rhickey: Should this work: (filter (memfn endsWith ".clj") ["a.clj" "b.java"]) ?
16:46	jgracin	it doesn't seem to.
16:46	rhickey	jgracin: no, it's not partial binding
16:53	jgracin	ok, got it. thanks.
16:54	rhickey	jgracin: I see how the docs could use clarification
16:58	Chouser	jgracin: memfn is hardly ever worth it. #(.endsWith % ".clj")
16:59	jgracin	Chouser: that's what I went back to. (memfn endsWith ".clj") seemed nice, though.
17:00	rhickey	Chouser: right, it predates #()
17:19	Chouser	I've got a bunch of old projecteuler code that uses "thisfn"
17:19	Chouser	it also uses "true" instead of ":else" in conds
17:26	danlarkin	Chouser: http://blog.danlarkin.org/2008/11/apply-is-lazy-and-i-was-wrong/
17:42	Chouser	danlarkin: :-) thanks
17:53	Chouser	set and sorted-set are different arities!?
17:54	wwmorgan	Chouser: you're looking for hash-set I think
17:54	Chouser	hm.
17:55	Chouser	good point.
18:20	blackdog	is it significant that all package names in contrib are lower case? can i use proper case without any problems with AOT in the future?
18:21	rhickey	blackdog: sure, but people choose lower case because upper is annoying, so if you have a choice...
18:21	blackdog	oh ok :)
18:21	rhickey	convention is Java is also all-lower for packages
18:22	rhickey	in Java
18:32	AWizzArd	Does the jvm support something like "green threads", some very lightweight threads?
18:39	danlarkin	AWizzArd: I don't believe so, but I think if you use a thread pool the effect is somewhat similar
19:00	AWizzArd	rhickey: do you see reader macros for users coming in 2009?
19:06	Chousuke	I haven't seen anyone present a really good argument for user-definable reader macros :/
19:09	AWizzArd	Chousuke: to not depend on what Rich thinks is the best syntax for all tasks and all upcoming problems/datastructures etc. If this is a good argument depends on your opinion.
19:10	Chousuke	Well, you can define syntax with regular macros; though I can see the usefulness of reader macros if you really need something a lot.
19:11	AWizzArd	Chousuke: and reader macros just look better for some stuff. Just think about #(foo 1 2 3) vs (# foo 1 2 3)
19:11	AWizzArd	This is: reader macro vs macro
19:12	Chousuke	well, yeah, but that's quite a small difference.
19:12	Chousuke	the problem that reader macros are prone to name clashes should be somehow solved first.
19:13	AWizzArd	I don't agree. This difference is so huge that Rich luckily decided to implement it as a reader macro.
19:13	Chousuke	Well, in this case yes.
19:14	Chousuke	as anonymous functions are quite common.
19:14	AWizzArd	Yes
19:14	AWizzArd	But currently I can't implement fully featured currying support, which would even more commonly used in Clojure
19:15	Chousuke	fully featured?
19:15	AWizzArd	yes
19:15	AWizzArd	Clojure has no currying support, but instead #(..) which comes already close
19:15	Chousuke	clojure has partial though
19:16	AWizzArd	Yes, but this makes not much sense in my opinion
19:16	AWizzArd	Currying is syntactic sugar
19:16	AWizzArd	it's about brevity
19:16	AWizzArd	Currying makes imo only sense when implemented as a reader macro
19:16	gnuvince1	As I said before, I prefer that #(...) anonymous functions be used instead of currying in general, because currying + function composition lead to some really hard to understand code in haskell IMO.
19:16	AWizzArd	(map $(* 3) mylist)
19:16	gnuvince1	It's almost backwards Factor code.
19:17	gnuvince1	Where you need to remember what a function takes and what it returns
19:17	AWizzArd	gnuvince1: in fact currying makes code easier. That's why Rich implemented something like #(..) in the first place, which already comes close.
19:17	gnuvince1	AWizzArd: the difference is that with #(...) you must be explicit about arguments
19:18	AWizzArd	and I am not talking about implicit currying, but explicit one
19:18	gnuvince1	(map #(* 3 %) my-list) reads bery easily.
19:18	gnuvince1	*very
19:18	Chousuke	AWizzArd: that's not much of an improvement over (map #(* 3 %) sequence)
19:19	AWizzArd	and (map !(* 3) my-list) reads even better, and (map !(rgb _ 255) colors) is also better than (map #(rgb %1 255 %&) colors
19:20	gnuvince1	How does the first example read better?
19:20	AWizzArd	because it says: multiply with 3
19:20	gnuvince1	So do ours.
19:21	AWizzArd	how does #(* 3 %) read better than (fn [x] (* 3 x))
19:21	Chousuke	If you ask me !(rgb _ 255) looks really confusing
19:21	AWizzArd	I can read both perfectly and understand them very well
19:21	AWizzArd	how can look #(rgb _ 255 %&) non-confusing to someone new to Clojure?
19:21	Chousuke	AWizzArd: #() doesn't have a superfluous name ("x") in the code
19:22	AWizzArd	Chousuke: but it has a superflous % in the code
19:22	Chousuke	it's not superfluous
19:22	Chousuke	it's the placeholder
19:22	AWizzArd	the x in fn also not
19:22	Chousuke	it's not a name, it's just %
19:22	AWizzArd	x is not a name, it is just a placeholder too
19:23	Chousuke	but x is a name.
19:23	AWizzArd	both are either names or placeholders
19:23	Chousuke	% is part of the syntax of #()
19:23	AWizzArd	right
19:23	AWizzArd	but it is superflous
19:23	gnuvince_	But it does help with shouwing explicitly what parameters a function takes
19:23	AWizzArd	(* 3) is a problem, I agree, as this would be implicit currying
19:24	gnuvince_	and !(* 3) is a nice example
19:24	gnuvince_	let's do something different
19:24	gnuvince_	subtract 3
19:24	gnuvince_	(map #(- % 3) coll)
19:24	AWizzArd	gnuvince_: how does #(* 3 %&) show explicitly what parameters * takes?
19:24	Chousuke	AWizzArd: again, once one knows the syntax for #(), it's clear
19:24	AWizzArd	(map !(- _ 3) coll)
19:25	AWizzArd	Chousuke: same with the syntax for !(...)
19:25	gnuvince_	AWizzArd: how is that better than the syntactic sugar for fns?
19:25	Chousuke	AWizzArd: but what about (map !(- 3) coll)
19:25	AWizzArd	or whatever the symbol might be
19:25	Chousuke	AWizzArd: shouldn't that be possible too, since !(* 3) is?
19:25	gnuvince_	Chousuke: with subtraction, order matters
19:25	Chousuke	gnuvince_: yeah, I know, and that's the problem
19:25	gnuvince_	3 * 4 == 4 * 3; 3 - 4 != 4 - 3
19:25	AWizzArd	Chousuke: !(- 3) ==> #(- 3 %&)
19:26	gnuvince_	Anyway, I think we're talking in circles here
19:26	Chousuke	AWizzArd: the latter is better in this case.
19:26	gnuvince_	Since it should be a library, it wouldn't matter much to me
19:26	AWizzArd	the better is !(...)
19:26	gnuvince_	I would never use it, but if AWizzArd wants to, his choice.
19:26	gnuvince_	That's the beauty of having extensible languages
19:26	AWizzArd	chances are you would use it all the time
19:26	gnuvince_	libraries can "modify" the language
19:27	Chousuke	! is not a very good macro character for your currying though.
19:27	AWizzArd	Chousuke: I don't care for the character.. see it as a placeholder for the real thing, whatever that might be
19:27	AWizzArd	it could be a ! or $ or & or % or ~ or \| or whatever
19:28	Chousuke	but I don't see how !(- 3) or !(rgb _ 255) are better than the explicit alternatives, really.
19:28	Chousuke	all they do is hide things.
19:28	Chousuke	that should be visible.
19:28	AWizzArd	but that is the only reason why currying exists
19:28	AWizzArd	it is pure syntactic sugar
19:28	AWizzArd	and if it should be visible one can use (fn [x] ...)
19:28	Chousuke	but #() provides us with enough syntactic sugar already
19:29	Chousuke	(fn [x] ...) is too verbose; the benefit gained from #() is greater than the benefit of !() compared to the already existing #()
19:29	AWizzArd	#(foo %1 %2 %3 "hallo" %4 -100 %&) vs ~(foo _ _ _ "hallo" _ -100)
19:29	Chousuke	yeah
19:29	Chousuke	I'd take the former.
19:29	rhickey	Clojure doesn't allow user-defined reader macros because they can't be combined - there's no namespace support, unlike for regular macros
19:30	rhickey	but the case for more currying support is very weak
19:30	Chousuke	the latter does look really nice but it doesn't allow easy changing of parameter order for example
19:31	AWizzArd	Chousuke: yes, the benefit is greater from (fn [..] ..) to #(...), but it also misses some features
19:31	rhickey	so you'll probably have to come to grips with that's how Clojure works
19:31	AWizzArd	Chousuke: you could also say ~(* %1 %1)
19:32	Chousuke	and would that take an automatic "rest" parameter or not? it's pretty confusing :/
19:32	AWizzArd	rhickey: so probably there won't be reader macros any time?
19:33	AWizzArd	Chousuke: it is not confusing at all if you would read (in the case currying was present) the then existing manual for 5 minutes
19:33	Chousuke	yeah but it looks like a #(* %1 %1)
19:34	rhickey	AWizzArd: not in the plans as of yet
19:34	Chousuke	which is different.
19:34	AWizzArd	Chousuke: yes, that's right
19:34	AWizzArd	Chousuke: and in this case #(* %1 %1) is probably even more efficient as no apply would be needed, as it would be the case for a curried object
19:34	AWizzArd	(under the hood I mean)
19:35	rhickey	the clash problem is significant - I don't want libraries that can't be combined. Macros work, user-defined reader macros don't
19:36	AWizzArd	Maybe one could enforce user-defined reader macros need some explicit "turning on" and "turning off"?
19:36	AWizzArd	(activate-infix-math)
19:36	Chouser	What about namespaced reader macros, like (chouser/regex .*$)
19:37	AWizzArd	and then you can say: (print ~[4x?-14]) or something like that
19:37	Chouser	lots of people who want reader macros might not be satisfied with that, but it would certainly grant some power.
19:37	rhickey	Chouser: how does that work?
19:38	duck1123	as much as I would like reader macros for my own use, I would hate to see them used by other people and figure out what it means
19:38	rhickey	AWizzArd: CL has user reader macros and the consensus is to avoid them
19:38	rhickey	duck1123: exactly
19:38	AWizzArd	sure, abosolutely, in 99% of all cases
19:38	duck1123	it's bad enough with the few that we have now (for a new user)
19:39	Chouser	at read-time the macro name would be resolved, recognized as a reader macro, and called with the input stream. It would return the s-expression, with the stream advanced to the end of the expression.
19:39	gnuvince_	Is there demand for an infix arithmetic library?
19:39	AWizzArd	gnuvince_: yes
19:39	Chousuke	maybe have some dispatch-character for user-defined reader macros, and for any defined macros, unless explicitly imported, would have to be qualified with the namespace?
19:40	rhickey	Chouser: the issue isn;t how to implement user macros, but what happens when you have two libraries that define $ ?
19:40	AWizzArd	rhickey: so let's enforce to activate and deactivate them
19:40	rhickey	gnuvince: no
19:40	Chousuke	that might result in some mismatching conventions though, so you could have pieces of code that look similar but do some very different things
19:40	rhickey	AWizzArd: you are unlikely to convince me they are a good idea
19:41	AWizzArd	(Well, if only one person asks for infix arithmetic from this moment on there is demand.)
19:41	Chouser	rhickey: the reader macro in my example is a function named regex in the chouser namespace. Existing namespace resolution and collision rules would apply.
19:41	rhickey	Chouser: so how do you use it?
19:42	AWizzArd	rhickey: I don't want to convince anyone that reader macros are a good idea in general. But I think that you can't forsee everything, and people might come into situations where 1 or 2 reader macros are really helpful
19:42	Chouser	it looks like a function or macro call, but it's actually a reader-macro call.
19:42	rhickey	Chouser: I don't see the point then
19:42	rhickey	doesn't allow for syntax that regular macros don't
19:43	Chouser	it would allow you to have non-valid-symbol stuff inside the parens. like literal regex chars, or SQL code or something.
19:44	Chouser	LispReader, upon seeing a symbol at the head of a list, would attempt to resolve it. If it resolves to a reader macro, it would pass the input stream to it, and accept back the s-expression to use in it's place.
19:44	rhickey	Chouser: ah, sort of an escape area
19:44	Chouser	yes
19:45	rhickey	I don't like it :)
19:45	Chouser	heh. ok.
19:45	Chouser	biab.
19:47	rhickey	AWizzArd: I'd rather there be a consensus of need for something and add it in a way that everyone can use
19:47	AWizzArd	yes
19:49	AWizzArd	of course, every decision comes with its own advantages and disadvantages
19:51	rhickey	AWizzArd: yes, I recognize fully this is less flexible than CL in this area, OTOH, I'd like to think Clojure will engender less desert-island programming than did CL
19:52	rhickey	speaking a common language fosters library development, shared idioms etc. When everyone creates their own language there's less of that
19:53	AWizzArd	And I agree and think this is a good thing. Ironically reducing the amount of flexibility a little bit can have positive effects here.
19:53	rhickey	and even standard reader macros pose an understanding challenge for newcomers
19:54	Chouser	esp. weird ones like #+ and #-
19:54	Chouser	:-)
19:55	AWizzArd	Well, I just think it is not overly important to be too nice to newcomers. Being a newcomer is a phase in which people are only a short time. Most of your life you have been an expert in programming.
19:55	rhickey	Chouser: coming soon :)
19:56	AWizzArd	concentrating on things that medicore to experts users like/want/need can be a good thing
19:56	AWizzArd	Instead of beeing nice to newcomers from the language side we need to write tons of examples and tutorials.
19:57	AWizzArd	I will see if I can do that for some german newcomers
19:57	rhickey	print-replica, print-clone(r) ???
19:58	Chouser	(set! print-detail :serialize)
19:58	rhickey	Chouser: talking about multimethod name
19:58	Chouser	serialize?
19:59	rhickey	serialize is out, not a good name at all IMO, I think driven by flattening graph notion, but weak
19:59	Chouser	the opposize of "read" is often "write"
19:59	Chouser	opposite
19:59	AWizzArd	(print-readable ...) maybe
19:59	AWizzArd	readably
20:00	Chouser	AWizzArd: that would mean something different
20:00	rhickey	unfortunately you can print to something readable that doesn't read as an identical copy, as happens now
20:00	AWizzArd	ic
20:00	rhickey	this is a stronger notion
20:00	Chouser	unless we change what is now print-readably to be named print-for-repl or something.
20:01	rhickey	it's really print-replicator, but that's a mouthful
20:01	Chouser	print-clone's not bad.
20:01	rhickey	clone is so sci-fi though
20:02	Chouser	what get's printed is not the original, so there's not much need for the "-r"
20:02	rhickey	but short, and people get clone
20:02	AWizzArd	reduplicate
20:02	Chouser	ooh, print-dup
20:02	rhickey	Chouser: but it creates the clone when read back, the printed version is not itself a clone
20:03	AWizzArd	(print-twin ...) :-)
20:03	rhickey	nice - leave out enough letters and you can interpret it in many ways
20:04	rhickey	print-dup(licator)
20:05	AWizzArd	print-genes
20:06	rhickey	print-dup wins - thanks Chouser !
20:07	Chouser	just riffing on AWizzArd :-)
20:11	AWizzArd	without trying this in the repl, what result do you expect? ((symbol "+") 4 10) ==> ?
20:11	duck1123	error
20:11	Chouser	can't cast Symbol to IFn
20:12	rhickey	Symbol's are IFns, like keywords
20:12	AWizzArd	I thought: either error or 14.
20:12	rhickey	10
20:12	AWizzArd	yes :-)
20:12	AWizzArd	but why?
20:12	Chouser	rhickey: nobody's impressed. ;-)
20:12	rhickey	look up the symbol + in 4, if not found return 10
20:13	Chouser	4 not being a collection doesn't bother it?
20:14	Chouser	hm. (get 4 '+ 10)
20:14	rhickey	Chouser: no, get was generalized a while back
20:14	AWizzArd	from get I would not expect errors
20:15	AWizzArd	but (nth 4 '+) instead should be an error
20:15	Chouser	AWizzArd: I bet you didn't get very far though -- this is a not a deep or hidden error, is it?
20:16	AWizzArd	I was just playing in the repl, so, not deep at all ;-)
20:16	AWizzArd	((symbol "+") {'+ 8 :a 13} 100) ==> 8
20:17	rhickey	Symbols were made to do self-lookup like keywords a while back, so they have parity for that use, with slightly different ns defaults
20:18	rhickey	also symbols used as keys can have metadata
20:18	AWizzArd	How can one get somthing like (symbol-function '+)?
20:18	Chouser	resolve
20:18	AWizzArd	thx
20:19	AWizzArd	n8 n8
20:33	Chouser	I often use (apply X (map Y ...)) instead of reduce so that I can use #() for Y without the ugly %1 and %2
20:33	Chouser	I don't know if that's a defensible reason.
20:34	rhickey	Chouser: probably not
20:35	rhickey	what's an example?
20:38	Chouser	(apply + (map #(- (int %) 64) word))
20:39	rhickey	vs?
20:40	Chouser	(reduce #(+ %1 (- (int %2) 64)) 0 word)
20:40	Chouser	(reduce (fn [a b] (+ a (- (int b) 64))) 0 word)
20:40	rhickey	you can say % instead of %1 there
20:40	rhickey	leaves only one ugly
20:40	Chouser	hm, didn't know that.
20:41	rhickey	but I'd advise you to get friendly with reduce, it's likely to be much faster, and more reduce-based idioms are on the way, including some that solve the lazy io problem
20:42	Chouser	hm...
20:43	rhickey	http://okmij.org/ftp/Haskell/Iteratee/DEFUN08-talk-notes.pdf
20:45	Chouser	91 slides?
20:45	gnuvince_	Chouser: that's Oleg for you
20:46	gnuvince_	91 slides of stuff that's gonna blow your brains out completely and make you wonder if you really know anything about programmming
20:47	rhickey	r you could just wait for the Clojure version, after AOT
20:48	rhickey	the idea is good, and I've got it mostly worked out for Clojure, in my head
20:50	rhickey	basically IO becomes an enhanced reduce, where the reducing fn can communicate that its done with the reducee, the reducee can clean up, also reducing fn gets passed a source of data rather than one item
20:50	rhickey	so can read multiple items per step
20:51	rhickey	based around a new abstraction, an io, like a generating function, new value every time called
20:51	rhickey	but threadsafe, unlike iterators
20:52	rhickey	still working on EOS/EIO protocol
20:53	rhickey	so you'll be able to reduce files/sockets/queues, blocking or non, resources always cleaned up
20:53	drewc	very cool!
20:54	danlarkin	rhickey: you're too smart for me :-o
20:54	rhickey	the Haskell guys came up with the core idea, Clojure won't be exactly the same of course
20:55	rhickey	they have the same resource management problems with lazy IO as we've seen
20:56	rhickey	Clojure version should be about 3 slides
20:56	rhickey	:)
20:56	abrooks	Heh. Naturally.
20:56	drewc	"Lazy IO in serious, server-side programming is unprofessional" he says :)
20:57	danlarkin	destructuring works with strings too, hoorah!
20:57	rhickey	an overstatement of course, you could do lazy io within a with-open and be fine, but handing off the lazy seq is the problem
20:59	abrooks	rhickey: Have you given any thought to a limited eager seq wrapper? Something to gobble, say, N at a time?
21:00	abrooks	That would be more like buffering.
21:00	rhickey	abrooks: partition?
21:00	abrooks	Sure but partition alters the structure of the seq, right?
21:01	abrooks	I'm talking about something like a lazy-cat with a delay in the fn slot which will yield N more items at once when the delay is hit.
21:01	Chouser	abrooks: there's also seque
21:02	abrooks	Oh.. wait.. brain cells clicking... deja vu..
21:03	abrooks	seque is very, very close to what I was thinking of. Probably because I'VE BEEN HERE BEFORE... :-}
21:05	danlarkin	OT but deja vu totally freaks me out
21:07	abrooks	I just chalk it up to by brain failing miserably. Nothing freaky about that. Just annoying. :)
21:10	drewc	i once heard deja-vu as simply your write-head getting a little ahead of your read-head, and reading (remembering) what you just wrote.
21:10	drewc	deja-vu described as*
21:19	danlarkin	so I guess that (take 2 "abcd") == (\a \b) and (\a \b) != "ab" is just the way it is?
21:19	danlarkin	I know I could apply str to the list, but I'd like to make it more generic and not have built in behavior for strings specifically
21:21	djkthx	are there default paths LOAD-FILE looks in?
21:21	djkthx	if so, how can i change/add to it?
21:22	gnuvince_	danlarkin: into?
21:24	abrooks	Strings really aren't collections though they're seq-able. There's no (empty "abc") or (into "" \a \b \c)
21:24	abrooks	It would be nice though.
21:25	gnuvince_	hmmm
21:25	gnuvince_	I thought it did
21:25	gnuvince_	Sadness :(
21:25	abrooks	Truly. If only there were someone in this channel who could fix it...
21:26	Chouser	most collections are not themselves seqs. (take 2 [1 2 3]) doesn't return a vector
21:27	abrooks	Chouser: I know. But a string is somewhat like a collection and into/empty/etc. would be nice.
21:28	abrooks	It's easy to break up a string (last "asdf") (rest "asdf") (first "asfd"), etc. Now what do you do with it?
21:28	Chouser	Strings aren't Persistent -- any change requires a complete copy.
21:28	abrooks	Chouser: I know.
21:28	Chouser	that's why conj and assoc shouldn't work.
21:29	abrooks	Chouser: It still would be nice. Otherwise we're just lost in regex land.
21:29	Chouser	into would be inefficient, but (apply str ...) uses a StringBuilder and thus works pretty well.
21:29	abrooks	I forget, are Java strings a reference type?
21:30	abrooks	Could Clojure build something which looks like a string but is persistent?
21:32	Chouser	I was thinking about something like that for a text editor data structure.
21:33	Chouser	(defn seek [n s] (= n (last (take-while #(<= % n) s))))
21:34	Chouser	that returns true in n is in the ordered infinite seq s
21:34	Chouser	is there a better way?
21:37	Chouser	this is not better: (defn seek [n [f & r :as s]] (if (< f n) (recur n r) (= f n)))
21:48	mibu	Anyone in here?
21:49	aspect	um yeah
21:49	mibu	Hi.
21:49	mibu	I have two small suggestions for features, who do I turn to?
21:51	Chouser	you can air it here or on the google group
21:51	mibu	Ok then. One is multiple pairs on def, similar to setq.
21:52	mibu	The other is cleaning up compiler error messages in the repl.
21:52	mibu	Thoughts?
21:52	mibu	Is there a reason def does not work on pairs?
21:53	Chouser	there are lots of different error messages coming from lots of spots in the code. There's an ongoing effort to improve individual messages as they come up.
21:53	mibu	on multiple pairs?
21:53	Chouser	I don't know setq. Can you give an example of what you want?
21:54	mibu	Re errors, I'm not talking about something fancy. As simple as replacing e.printStackTrace() with if (!(e instanceof Compiler.CompilerException)) e.printStackTrace(); in the main repl loop's catch clause.
21:54	mibu	example for multiple pairs is: (def a 1 b 2) to associate a with 1 and b with 2. Looks better on multiple lines.
21:54	Chouser	latest repl only prints the first line of the exception. Is that not what you see?
21:55	mibu	Really? Mine dumps the stack trace. Which version is the latest?
21:55	Chouser	oh, just to avoid (def a 1) (def b 2) ?
21:55	mibu	yeah about the def
21:55	Chouser	latest is always from svn :-)
21:56	mibu	I prefer the latest stable release.
21:56	Chouser	there's a link at clojure.org
21:56	mibu	but it's good to know it's in the trunk.
21:56	mibu	Is there a release schedule?
21:57	Chouser	ah. latest release is 20080916
21:57	mibu	I've got that release.
21:58	mibu	In that release, it still dumps the stack trace, no?
21:58	Chouser	ok. in svn the full exception is kept in *e and by default only the first line is printed.
21:58	Chouser	yep, that change missed the release by 3 days.
21:59	mibu	Great, it's good to know it'll be in by default in the next release.
21:59	mibu	Is there a release schedule?
21:59	Chouser	I don't know of a predicted release date, but I think the next will be called 1.0
22:00	mibu	chouser, do you know if there are plans to expand def to multiple pairs?
22:01	Chouser	nope, not heard that mentioned before.
22:01	abrooks	I thought someone created a "defs" macro at onepoint, perhaps as a lisp paste.
22:02	Chouser	You can make a case for your change on the google group, and see what kind of response you get.
22:02	mibu	It's not a problem making a macro, it'd just be nice to have it built-in.
22:03	Chouser	abrooks: there's declare, but that's not what mibu wants.
22:03	mibu	That kind of small feature is not worth bothering the group about.
22:04	Chouser	it's not going to happen otherwise. You could provide a patch if you want.
22:05	mibu	What you guys use to for dev environment?
22:05	Chouser	there's a pretty wide variety. lots use emacs, a few use netbeans (+ enclojure), I use vim.
22:05	djkthx	emacs
22:05	djkthx	personally
22:06	djkthx	after getting used to slime, it's hard to use anything else
22:06	danlarkin	aye, aquamacs
22:06	mibu	I use the emacs with the clojure-mode, is there something better than that around?
22:06	mibu	I tried to get slime to work with clojure, but it messed up my config with sbcl.
22:06	djkthx	yeah, i'm wrestling with that right now actually
22:07	mibu	djkthx, I use slime2 and it's a mess. does the cvs version solve some of these problems?
22:08	djkthx	well, i'll let you know in a minute if i get it working :P
22:08	mibu	:-)
22:08	danlarkin	I'm trying to translate this haskell function to clojure but I'm having a brain lapse... satisfy p (x:xs) = [ (xs,x) \| p x ]
22:10	danlarkin	I know that between the []'s is a list comprehension, but what is it iterating on?
22:11	danlarkin	or is it not iterating? is it just returning a list of one (or zero) elements?
22:20	mibu	do agents guarantee ordered execution of requests from a single thread?
22:22	Chouser	mibu: I think so.
22:23	Chouser	"Actions dispatched to an agent from another single agent or thread will occur in the order they were sent, potentially interleaved with actions dispatched to the same agent from other sources."
22:24	mibu	yeah, I just got to that section. premature question.
22:24	Chouser	:-)
22:25	mibu	So, essentially you can use agents instead of producer/consumer queues, in most cases.
22:26	mibu	Is there a reason not to?
22:26	Chouser	I think that's fine. You might look at seque.
22:29	mibu	Seque is good only for efficiency issues. From the logic aspect, it's unnecessary, right? Or am I missing something...
22:33	mibu	btw chouser, where did you find out about seque? Does it only appear in the API page or is there another section about it?
22:34	Chouser	It's probably only on the api page. I would also recommend reading through boot.clj -- very educational.
22:38	mibu	educational yes, but not informative. If you hadn't told me about it, I wouldn't have found out about it. When I look for something I need, I check the relevant section in the reference, I don't scan every single function.
22:40	mibu	boot.clj is kinda hard to read when you're new to clojure. also, much needed comments are very scarce.
22:42	Chouser	not every function fits well in any particular reference page, but I do think we could use some better way to discover functions
22:42	Chouser	about the best we've got is (find-doc "queue")
22:44	mibu	The hyperspec managed to cram every single function in CL to a category, and it's very helpful when you're checking out a new area you don't know much about.
22:46	Chouser	I could never find functions in CL
22:46	Chouser	...for the week or two that I tried.
22:46	mibu	damn, now I think about all the useful functions I haven't discovered yet and possibly written unnecessarily.
22:47	mibu	yeah, CL is not very friendly. some say it's policy to exclude mere mortals from programming in it.... ;-)
22:47	Chouser	:-)
22:49	mibu	hey, we can adopt a similar smug policy. want to write in clojure? read the boot.clj. if someone complains about the lack of comments, tell them it's intentional. :-)
22:49	mibu	a language can't be a real lisp without the smug attitude of it's followers...
22:50	Chouser	yet another way which Clojure is better than lisp. :-)
22:51	duck1123	I've been driving my self nuts trying to figure out why my connection is closed before I get to it
22:51	duck1123	turns out my parens were in the wrong place
22:55	danlarkin	duck1123: ouch
23:09	djkthx	mibu: i got it all working pretty harmoniously now
23:09	djkthx	with sbcl/mzscheme/clojure
23:09	djkthx	if you want me to post my .emacs file
23:09	mibu	what's your .emacs slime section looks like?
23:10	mibu	yeah, I'd like that.
23:10	djkthx	yeah, jas
23:11	djkthx	mibu: http://pastebin.com/m5854a0fa
23:11	djkthx	if you were having a problem with progn
23:11	djkthx	which was the error i was getting
23:11	djkthx	you just have to prevent certain things from being eval'd when you start slime with clojure instead of common lisp
23:11	mibu	which version of slime you use?
23:12	djkthx	cvs
23:12	djkthx	the git version on github
23:13	mibu	I want to see if there's a way to make it work with slime2. I have some programs running with swank of that version, and it's a bad idea to mix versions of slime and swank.
23:13	djkthx	ah
23:13	djkthx	hmm
23:18	mibu	djk, what's slime-fancy?
23:18	duck1123	does anyone know how I can 'let' a local variable in a macro to be made available to forms in the '& body' of the macro?
23:18	duck1123	I keep getting errors whenever I try
23:19	duck1123	The only way I've managed to do this is to bind on a global variable like in clojure.contrib.sql
23:21	mibu	djk, thanks for the .emacs, but it seems my problem is not as simple as I thought.
23:21	djkthx	that's too bad =\
23:21	djkthx	mibu: slime-fancy just adds the nice tab completion and other features
23:21	djkthx	i was having issue including it
23:22	mibu	right now, clojure-mode does the trick for me. if clojure is as good as it seems, maybe I won't need sbcl and slime anymore.
23:25	danlarkin	oh wow what are the chances... someone already wrote a parser combinator library for clojure, hooray!
23:26	Chouser	duck1123: the called of your macro is passing in the local name to be bound?
23:27	duck1123	I'm basically writing a bunch of with-* macros right now
23:27	duck1123	I want those macros to make a variable available to the body of those macros
23:28	Chouser	(defmacro let99 [a & body] `(let [~a 99] ~@body))
23:28	duck1123	I'd prefer to not have to specify the name of those variables when calling the macro, but I will if I have to
23:29	Chouser	oh, you want to "capture" the name.
23:29	duck1123	yes
23:29	duck1123	I want 'a to be available to body
23:30	Chouser	(defmacro let-foo [v & body] `(let [~'foo ~v] ~@body))
23:30	Chouser	naughty
23:30	duck1123	is that not good form?
23:31	drewc	duck1123: in general, variable capture is a no-no.
23:31	Chouser	in clojure, anyway. arc loves it.
23:31	drewc	entire macro systems have been written in an attempt to avoid even the possibility.
23:32	Chouser	drewc: part of that is attempting to avoid un-intentional capture.
23:32	drewc	arc is a no-no as well... wanton variable capture being among the reasons :)
23:32	drewc	Chouser: indeed, and i actually capture variables all the time in CL... but only for internal macros.
23:33	Chouser	intentional capture is less bad, but still -- for example, you may shadow a name the user has been using for a while, forcing them to rename their own variables just to use your macro.
23:33	drewc	exactly. If the macro will be used outside a few select places, best not capture a variable the programmer may be using.
23:34	duck1123	ok the, assuming I want to pass in the name of the var I will use, I get the error: Unable to resolve symbol: resource in this context
23:34	drewc	if it's for hack, or will only be used internally in some module of code and doesn't even make sense outside that context, then go ahead and capture IMO.
23:35	Chouser	duck1123: you're using a pattern like let99 above?
23:36	duck1123	yes
23:36	Chouser	(let99 foo (+ 5 foo))
23:37	duck1123	lisppaste8: url
23:37	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
23:39	lisppaste8	duck1123 pasted "Trouble using macros" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69887
23:39	duck1123	the part I'm working on is the with-resource
23:40	duck1123	and add-statement
23:40	duck1123	the code is not very clean yet, I'm still working on it
23:45	duck1123	hmm... maybe I forgot to evaluate something... I'm getting a different error now that I've restarted the repl
23:55	djkthx	so, is there a way to package clojure code into a jar or anything?