#clojure – 2008-11-08

2008-11-08

03:38	knobo	I have some problems starting clojure. Is there a paste-bin I can use?
03:39	knobo	I start clojure like this: java -cp clojure.jar clojure.lang.Repl
03:39	H4ns	lisppaste8: url
03:39	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
03:39	knobo	And I get lot's of error messages. It starts with Exception in thread "main" java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError
03:40	lisppaste8	knobo pasted "Error booting clojure" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69939
03:42	knobo	$JAVA_HOME is /usr/lib/jvm/java-6-sun-1.6.0.07/
03:42	knobo
03:43	knobo	I don't know anything about Java. Maybe I shood learn java before clojure?
03:43	Cark	i don't know anything about java either ....but it's manageable it seems
03:44	H4ns	are you starting java in the directory that clojure.jar is in?
03:44	knobo	yes
03:44	knobo	ls -l clojure.jar gives -rw-r--r-- 1 knobo knobo 498538 2008-11-08 09:32 clojure.jar
03:45	H4ns	did you compile clojure yourself?
03:45	knobo	yes, at 09:32
03:45	H4ns	what java version do you use?
03:46	knobo	haha! I did not know... java version "1.5.0" gij (GNU libgcj) version 4.2.4 (Ubuntu 4.2.4-1ubuntu3)
03:47	H4ns	erm
03:47	H4ns	my guess is that you need sun java
03:47	knobo	Maybe better use sun.
03:48	H4ns	also, you will need to learn java to some extent in order to use clojure.
03:48	Cark	learn to use javadoc and you're all set imho
03:50	knobo	Do I nead to do some kind of "make clean"?
03:50	knobo	I also don't know ant
03:51	H4ns	you can remove all .class files
03:52	knobo	Hurra!
03:52	knobo	I made it :)
03:52	Cark	bravo !
03:54	knobo	I can see. I need too learn swing, and other APIs
03:54	knobo	libs.
03:55	Cark	i would recommend learning MigLayout along with swing
03:56	knobo	Can I load .jar files dynamicly after cojure has started?
03:56	knobo	hmm. well. I'll start by reading some docs.
03:57	Cark	knobo : i have a directory in the classpath with all the jar files i want to use, then just (import) them
03:58	knobo	So (import "MigLayout") should do it then.
03:59	Cark	let me copy past a namespace declaration
04:00	lisppaste8	cark pasted "example namespace" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69940
04:04	knobo	thanx
04:09	knobo	Is the slime patch maintained?
04:11	Cark	i don't know
04:24	knobo	How about using eclipse. Is that what people is doing?
04:25	knobo	I would like to know some best pratises
04:30	Cark	i'm using slime
04:31	Cark	i hear there's a netbean add-on too
04:31	Cark	though i would think that emacs is best suited for sexpr based languages
04:42	knobo	It would be nice if http://clojure.org/api had examples for each function. Like hyperspec have.
04:44	Cark	yep that's a problem ...
04:45	Cark	there's the wiki-book with a few examples
04:45	knobo	Why is it a problem. A wiki would solve that (almost).
04:45	knobo	:)
04:46	Cark	well clojure is still pretty much a moving target
04:47	Cark	examples should show up in the doc strings, that would be perfect, commiters could update it in place
04:48	Cark	they're talking about making a test suite too, that would be even better !
04:49	knobo	Is clojure written in clojure?
04:50	knobo	hmm, no it's not..
04:50	Cark	nope ...much is done in boot.clj, but the basis is java
04:55	knobo	boot.clj is mostly understandable :)
04:56	Cark	it's a good reference
04:56	Cark	when you don't know how to use something
04:56	knobo	It solves a lot of the missing examples
06:48	Lau_of_DK	Good afternoon guys
06:49	Cark	hello lau_of_dk
06:57	Lau_of_DK	Anybody here got some interesting projects on Sourceforge (Clojure ofc) ?
07:17	kib2_away	hello, I wanted to know how to add a .jar to my classpath
07:18	Lau_of_DK	java -cp /path/to/your.jar:/path/to/clojure.jar clojure.lang.**
07:18	rhickey_	djkthx: still here?
07:19	kib2_away	Lau_of_DK: thanks !
07:19	Lau_of_DK	np :)
07:19	Lau_of_DK	Unless your on Windows kib2_away ?
07:19	kib2_away	Lau_of_DK: yes, I'm on windows
07:19	kib2_away	why ?
07:19	Lau_of_DK	Then I think its java -cp "c:\jar1.jar;c:\clojure.jar" instead
07:20	Lau_of_DK	The syntax is a little different
07:20	kib2_away	ok, " are there to handle spaces I think
07:20	kib2_away	like "Documents and Settings/..."
07:20	Cark	most important is the : which becomes a ;
07:21	Lau_of_DK	ok
07:21	kib2_away	I've tried inside my code to use (add-classpath "file://core.jar") but it fails under windows. Do i miss something ?
07:22	kib2_away	maybe my classpath is not well configured
07:22	philed	I'm hoping to use Clojure for my next project, since it ticks most of the boxes I want for the purpose. One thing I'm concerned about is whether there currently is or will be a means to do the equivalent of reflecting into packages and the symbol table as in CL. Any ideas?
07:24	Cark	i'm calling clojure with java -cp c:\path\to\libs\*;c:\clojure\clojure.jar clojure.lang.Repl
07:24	Cark	then i only need to (require com.some.lib)
07:24	rhickey_	philed: look at: (find-doc "ns-")
07:25	kib2_away	Cark: nice tip, thanks.
07:25	Cark	err not require but import !
07:25	kib2_away	Cark: import or use ?
07:26	Cark	import for java stuff
07:26	philed	Unfortunately, I don't have clojure installed on my home machine at the moment. But I'm thinking more like "do-symbols" and "find-symbol" and "find-package" and so forth.
07:26	Lau_of_DK	philed, take a look at this http://paste.lisp.org/display/67122
07:28	lisppaste8	rhickey pasted "ns fns" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69948
07:28	philed	Very nice. That should be all I need.
07:29	philed	It would be good to get this hooked up to SLIME so we can get some auto-complete working.
07:29	Lau_of_DK	:)
07:30	Lau_of_DK	I think we need to review the wiki's recommendations on setting up slime, for every 1 person who gets it working there seems to be 10 who cannot
07:32	philed	It took me a while. I can't remember what the problem was. But I take it I have it set up correctly: there is no tab-completion available at the REPL, or any information about function arguments in the minibuffer as you type?
07:33	kib2_away	philed: C-c M-i does not do completion in Slime ?
07:34	Cark	philed : i have both
07:34	philed	Ah okay. Something's wrong with my setup then.
07:34	Chousuke	I set up tab completion manually
07:34	Chousuke	but the minibuffer info should be there.
07:35	philed	Yes, I've read a few articles about doing tab-completion yourself, by loading in a database of function definitions and so forth. But I want this done automatically, with updates every time I write a new function.
07:35	Chousuke	no I mean I set up tab completion separately from slime :)
07:35	Cark	swank-clojure provides this, it should work out of the box
07:35	Chousuke	it does update automatically.
07:35	philed	Okay, then I definitely have done something wrong.
07:54	philed	Okay, so does the clojure swank server use the java reflection API to do all the tab-completions and other such stuff?
07:54	Cark	nope
07:55	philed	Any idea how it works then?
07:55	Cark	it does completion for the clojure stuff only
07:56	philed	Okay, so does it work in any way like slime for CL?
07:57	Cark	i don't know ... i'm a lispworks user.
07:57	Cark	it uses the namespace api at http://clojure.org/namespaces
07:59	Cark	you can check this in swank-clojure\swank\commands\basic\
07:59	Cark	i think adding the java reflection completion would be trivial
08:00	philed	Ack! I don't know what I'm talking about then. I read "the read table is currently not accessible to user programs" on the website and stupidly confused "read table" with "symbol table".
08:00	philed	I had thought Clojure had no support for the equivalent of first-class packages, but it obviously does (and damn well should!)
08:01	philed	Still, surely swank could be extended to use both the ns API and Java reflection?
08:01	Cark	has to because of the lisp1 thing
08:01	philed	Why would lisp1 force it to?
08:02	Cark	because of name clashes
08:03	Cark	can you imagine a single namespace a la emacs
08:03	Cark	that's ugly
08:03	philed	No I don't mean that. I specifically mean first-class packages. That is, packages and symbols that are first-class objects.
08:03	philed	So you can do things like enumerate the symbols interned in a package.
08:04	Cark	you know what, i never understood the meaning of "first class" =P
08:04	rhickey_	philed: Clojure's namespaces are first class but Java's packages are not
08:04	philed	I'm not sure I could give a formal definition. I would say anything which can be bound to a variable is a first-class object.
08:04	rhickey_	but I do think IDEs/Slime could do Java completion too
08:05	rhickey_	there are some context hints (like the presence of . ) that can help
08:05	Lau_of_DK	rhickey_, would you mind setting that up and then updating the wiki accordingly? :)
08:05	rhickey_	but being dynamically typed, a lot of the hooks used by Java IDEs won't work
08:06	philed	rhicker: That sucks. I don't really know much Java, but then, since I'm not going to be writing much Java code, it should be possible to just put lots of metadata around existing java functions so we can get autocompletion and documentation via "find-doc". Unless this has already been done.
08:06	Chouser	nono, that's not rhickey_'s job
08:06	Chouser	let him get AOT and io streams working. :-)
08:07	Lau_of_DK	I knew it was a long shot :) But they dont call me 'The Delagator" for nothing. No I actually already asked Chousuke to review the wiki, because he seems to have a well-working slime-setup
08:08	rhickey_	Chouser: It looks like cgrand is ahead of me on the io enumerators, so I hope he runs with that, then we can get it done in parallel - trying to get a dialog with him going on the group about it so everyone can follow along
08:08	philed	rhickey: By the way, though I haven't started coding in it yet, I have extremely high hopes for Clojure. The design philosophy matches up pretty much precisely with what I want from a language.
08:08	philed	Great work!
08:08	rhickey_	Chouser: simpler doseq looks nice, I have 2 nits
08:08	rhickey_	philed: thanks!
08:08	Chouser	rhickey_: ok, go for it.
08:08	rhickey_	Chouser: will paste momentarily
08:09	Chouser	I got far enough in implementing that paper's io ideas, that I'm now pretty excited to see it implemented.
08:10	rhickey_	Chouser: yes, will be great addition
08:10	Lau_of_DK	rhickey_, I know this is probably also a long shot, but all these talks your doing around the US, is there any chance you'll have an oppotunity to do any such thing in Europe, preferably Scandinavia, preferably Denmark? :)
08:10	Chouser	Unless I'm missing something it won't be hard to do, it's more a matter of doing it well.
08:11	rhickey_	Chouser: yes, lots of little details, EOF, done protocol, timeouts etc
08:11	philed	rhickey_: Are Clojure namespaces hierarchical?
08:11	Chouser	philed: nope
08:11	rhickey_	Like most of Clojure, I'd like it to be part of a unified model, in this case making sure it encompasses queues well
08:12	Chouser	philed: but it's convention to use . to separate parts of the namespace name
08:12	Chouser	philed: when used with "use" and "require" the name parts are mapped to directory names on disk, just like java packages.
08:12	lisppaste8	rhickey annotated #69926 with "doseq nits" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69926#2
08:13	Chouser	apply assoc is good
08:13	philed	Any explanation for why? I've done things in CL to get something like hierarchical packages, extending the existing hacks in CMUCL. It's nice to be able to use relative namespace names.
08:14	Lau_of_DK	rhickey_, I know this is probably also a long shot, but all these talks your doing around the US, is there any chance you'll have an oppotunity to do any such thing in Europe, preferably Scandinavia, preferably Denmark? :)
08:14	Chouser	but I don't think I can use destructuring at that point to boot.clj (I tried to at first)
08:14	rhickey_	Chouser: ah!, didn't consider that
08:14	Chouser	so apply emit was my hack attempt to use & in the fn instead
08:15	rhickey_	generally, if you always apply a fn, the sig is wrong
08:15	Chouser	I had to move partition up too, but that seems to be ok.
08:15	rhickey_	apply is fine then
08:16	rhickey_	I'll try your patch today if it's ready - might as well break everything at once :)
08:16	Chouser	Maybe a comment to warn people reading boot.clj looking for examples of how code should look.
08:17	rhickey_	Chouser: yeah, I'd love to just go through it and change all the Java interop to the latest conventions too
08:17	Chouser	heh, ok! You want a fresh patch against 1089?
08:17	rhickey_	but there will always be some trickiness to the bootstrap order
08:17	Chouser	yeah
08:18	rhickey_	Chouser: fresh patch welcome
08:18	Chouser	ok. no need for extra exception throwing as mentioned in the groupthread?
08:18	Chouser	for "too many bindings"?
08:19	rhickey_	Lau_of_DK: no plans for Europe yet - please send plane tix :)
08:20	philed	rhickey: Maybe I could persuade some of the Foundations of Computer Science people here in Edinburgh to get you over for a talk. Philip Wadler likes Lisps.
08:20	rhickey_	Chouser: no, let's keep it simple, I don;t think people will be inclined to try multiple bindings in if-let
08:21	rhickey_	philed: um, Wadler likes to beat up on Lisps :)
08:21	Lau_of_DK	rhickey_, Im sure air-fare wont be a problem, but if any such practicality is preventing you, feel free to let me know, I'll help resolve it
08:22	philed	rhickey: He does? He's got a copy of the "God codes in Lisp" poem on his blog, so I thought he would probably be into them. But then, being a Haskell guy, he probably hates dynamically typed languages. Haven't chatted with him about Lisp, actually.
08:22	rhickey_	philed: those folks are way into type systems, so Clojure is rather primitive from that point of view
08:23	rhickey_	philed: He gave a talk at a Lisp conf to the effect of - God codes in a strongly typed lambda calculus
08:23	philed	rhickey: Yep. I like type-systems as well from an intellectual point of view, and I think what Ocaml does is pretty amazing (static duck typing). I've also seen some cool tricks with the type systems, but they seem as obscene as template metaprogramming in C++ sometimes.
08:28	arbscht_	Lau_of_DK: while you're at it, sponsor him a trip to new zealand too! :)
08:30	Chouser	and Indiana. :-P
08:33	philed	So going back to hierarchical namespaces: the only behaviour I like (which you can hack into CL) is to have it so that all symbols in a namespace foo are automatically interned in the namespace foo.bar, and having it so that, while in the namespace foo, the namespace bar can be referred to with a relative namespace name, perhaps just "bar". Depending on how the reader works, you can always add this behaviour to CL. Is it p
08:33	philed	ossible in Clojure, or there already?
08:36	philed	Hope this question isn't impertinent by the way. It hasn't been discussed to death already on newsgroups?
08:46	rhickey_	philed: I want to hold off on that until I see a need - with aliases, I don't see it
08:46	rhickey_	complexity/utility ratio is not good
08:49	philed	Would it be possible (for me) to write it as a library on top of Clojure? In CL, all you need to do is rewrite find-symbol and add a macro to define nested packages. It just requires that the reader looks up symbol definitions by using a function like "find-symbol" which can be rebound to a user-defined function.
08:49	philed	Of course, that latter issue is not guaranteed by the CL specification.
08:51	rhickey_	philed: as evidenced elsewhere, I'm not inclined towards language customization outside of macros, esp. reader customization, as such customizations can't be combined
08:57	philed	That's fair. It opens the door to abuse. I think getting hierarchical packages in CL was justified though, since I feel there is a fair amount to be gained from them. In CMUCL, they are available out of the box.
08:57	philed	But again, as a reader customisation.
08:58	rhickey_	Java and C# have much larger libraries and flat namespaces have been sufficient there, IMO
08:59	rhickey_	again, it's not that they are bad, just the complexity/utility ratio
09:01	philed	But those languages rely on OO for much of their modularity, and their model of OO means that classes are effectively namespaces, and are frequently nested (right). With generic functions, you don't have this, and besides, aren't you putting much less emphasis on OO with Clojure?
09:04	Chousuke	deep nesting gets confusing pretty quickly :/
09:04	rhickey_	philed: yes, classes are namespaces, no, not too frequently nested, yes, Clojure is not very OO. That said, a one-line alias or :as at the top of a file le's you get a short name for anything vs everyone (incl. tools) having to understand hierarchical namespaces. It's simply a tradeoff
09:06	philed	rhickey_: Okay, cool. I'll trust your experience on this one and try hacking with flat namespaces. There's always a chance my early exposure to C++ has clouded my judgement on this matter.
09:07	philed	Chousuke: Right, there's be diminishing returns involved. And I have noticed this with my own code, even with only three levels of nesting.
09:09	Chousuke	on thursday I was watching a presentation about distributed systems on .NET, and the guy did a code demo. Everyone (including the speaker himself) laughed a bit when he read aloud code that accessed a property that was nested at least 5 levels :P
09:10	philed	Chousuke: Java and C# have the whole "kingdom of nouns" thing going on which just compounds the problem.
09:24	Chouser	Yegge's got reach, doesn't he. If only Google would let him use Clojure.
09:28	drewr	I don't see why he couldn't. They already have a huge JVM infrastructure.
09:28	drewr	Should be easier than the Ruby battle he's been fighting.
09:29	Chouser	Google only allows javascript, java, C, and python (from what I understand)
09:29	Chouser	he's only allowed to do his Rhino experiments because it's js and java.
09:30	Chousuke	I took a look at the wiki slime set up guide and changed it a bit to match how my setup is done.
09:30	Chousuke	I don't know if it works for others but it works for me :/
09:30	Chousuke	mostly it was the same though.
09:30	drewr	Chouser: He's said that limitation is based on deployment. Clojure would require little infrastructure change if any.
09:31	Chousuke	I also added a tab completion trick I found on the internet somewhere that I use
09:33	Chouser	with the possible exception of C-like syntax, clojure is so much closer to what he seems to want than javascript it.
09:35	drewr	I get the impression he'd prefer a lisp if it was practical. I think he only puts up with JS because it's the most lispy of the mainstream languages.
09:37	drewr	I find it ironic that people complain about lisp's parens. I look at javascript and I am blinded by the braces, especially if I write it in a functional way.
09:39	drewr	hola wilkes
09:40	kotarak	drewr: (-> obj .getAThing .makeMore .actions) vs. obj.getAThing().makeMore().actions()... 2 vs. 6, aha, so Java is the actual Lisp...
09:41	wilkes	howdy drewr
09:42	wilkes	drewr: I made a bit of headway yesterday on the pivotal-tracker client
09:42	wilkes	http://github.com/wilkes/pivotal-tracker-clojure-client/tree/master/
09:42	drewr	kotarak: :-)
09:43	wilkes	accidently created a DSL
09:43	drewr	I see that.
09:46	philed	kotarak: Still, there is something to be said in the fact that I couldn't write Lisp code without paren matching switched on, while I can write procedural code with C-like syntax without any difficulty.. That said, when you have paren-matching, I have not found Lisp syntax any more of a pain than any other language, and the benefits of code-as-data and syntactic macros make Lisp syntax far superior. Now that mainstream lan
09:46	philed	guages such as C# are taking syntactic abstraction seriously, I think it will be easier to convince programmers of this, especially when working with C# expression objects (and Ocaml expression objects) is so much more painful.
10:13	rhickey_	Chouser: bindings patch applied - rev 1090. Thanks, that's a significant contribution!
10:14	Chouser	great, thanks.
10:14	Chouser	i assumed there were a dozen or more such macros, so it's not as significant a contribution as I assumed it would be. :-)
10:15	rhickey_	still a lot of work - I appreciate it
10:17	Chouser	you're quite welcome. I'm all about breaking other people's code.
10:18	rhickey_	nice
10:18	rhickey_	aargh, forgot to give you blame, er, credit in the checkin comment
10:20	Chouser	:-) no worries.
10:20	rhickey_	I guess there's a lot todo to bring contrib up to speed too
10:21	Chousuke	doseq etc. are like let now?
10:21	rhickey_	The next phase of AOT is a big one for contrib - moves directories around
10:22	rhickey_	Chousuke: yes, per: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_frm/thread/55213f2eb203ca39
10:23	rhickey_	also for AOT the mappings will now be from my.company.lib ns to class lib in my.company package Java-wise
10:23	rhickey_	this won't affect ns/require/use et al, but will lift everything up a directory
10:24	rhickey_	but biggest change is that clojure ns should really be at least one nested, lest it have no Java package, e.g. clojure.core
10:25	rhickey_	thinking about some standard aliases - core/set/xml/zip etc
10:27	Chouser	bah, I forgot to add the comment for (apply emit binds)
10:27	rhickey_	Chouser: when people start noticing that we'll be in good shape
10:28	Chouser	heh
10:32	djkthx	rhickey_: here now
10:33	rhickey_	djkthx: you were doing sieve?
10:34	djkthx	yeah
10:34	rhickey_	I had a faster version, here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/69952, commented on your blog
10:34	djkthx	yeah, why is it faster?
10:35	rhickey_	djkthx: because it uses primitives
10:35	djkthx	ah, gotcha
10:35	djkthx	cool
10:35	djkthx	thanks :)
10:35	rhickey_	sure
10:36	Chouser	I was noticing that since doseq uses loop/recur, it could benefit from primitives, except there's no way to specify them.
10:37	Chouser	would the benefit be to little just because it's always pulling from seqs?
10:37	rhickey_	Chouser: doseq uses numbers?
10:38	rhickey_	or if the seq contents are numbers?
10:38	Chouser	if the seq contents are numbers. range, primes, fibs, etc.
10:39	rhickey_	yeah, time will probably be dominated by seqs
10:40	Chouser	ok.
10:41	rhickey_	numbers will be boxed in seqs anyway, unbox is no big deal
10:43	Chouser	You might get primitive logic in :when and :while, but I can see it might not help much.
10:44	rhickey_	once you are at that point you're looking at amap/areduce anyway
10:45	Chouser	pity. :-)
10:45	rhickey_	tagged numbers needed to do better with Object-based interfaces
11:09	lisppaste8	mibu pasted "line-seq" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69962
11:10	mibu	I have a question regarding recursive calls.
11:10	mibu	What exactly is the semantics of recur?
11:11	Chouser	recur is like a call to the immediately containing function or loop
11:11	Chouser	except it doesn't consume a stack frame
11:13	mibu	Well in the paste above, line-seq recursively call line-seq. I assume it's possible because defn creates a var of line-seq instead of a let binding. But shouldn't that have worked with recur instead of line-seq? (It doesn't)
11:14	kotarak	The function returns, before the "recursive" call happens because of the lazy-cons
11:16	Chouser	yeah, lazy-cons is the key. Neither of it arguments is evaluated immediately; they're both deferred until needed.
11:16	mibu	ok. so how do I create recursive references when not using defn? for instance in a let binding clause: (let [lines (something) seqqer (fn [seq] (lazy-cons (re-seq #"\\w+" (first lines)) (seqqer (rest lines))))] (seqqer lines))
11:17	mibu	seqqer is not recognized in the fn def.
11:17	kotarak	seqqer (fn seqqer [seq] ...)
11:17	kotarak	(where seq is a bad local variable, because it shadows the function seq)
11:18	mibu	oh! thanks.
11:18	mibu	isn't it a little redundant?
11:19	kotarak	I almost never need it.
11:19	kotarak	but letrec is on the TODO list
11:21	mibu	why use a different symbol for a recursive let?
11:35	AWizzArd	Moin
11:43	mibu	Is there a last-value-evaluated var in the REPL (like '*' in CL)?
11:43	rhickey_	mibu: 1 2 *3
11:43	kotarak	1 2 3 e (<- last one is exception)
11:44	mibu	thanks.
11:45	mibu	ah, that's not in the latest release (...0916), right?
11:45	AWizzArd	try the svn
11:45	mibu	I will.
11:47	Chouser	don't use the latest svn, though, unless you're feeling adventurous.
11:47	rhickey_	mibu: the last 2 checkins contained significant changes - try rev 1088 for the smoothest ride
11:48	rhickey_	anyone have any issues with clojure ns being renamed clojure.core ? (aside from the breakage)
11:48	mibu	rhickey: thanks. I will.
11:49	kotarak	rhickey_: why not clojure.lang? Would match the java side. (Although that might be a problem)...
11:50	rhickey_	kotarak: I'd rather avoid mixing the generated classes from the two sources
11:50	rhickey_	also would cause a class and a package to be called clojure.lang
11:51	rhickey_	most of what is in there (currently boot.clj) is core library, not language syntax
11:51	rhickey_	so seems easiest to have a different name
11:52	kotarak	just an idea.. Separating the underlyings from the core librarary running on the former is a good argument
12:07	mibu	Is there an active issue tracker somewhere? (todo list, feature requests, known bugs, release schedule, and the like.)
12:08	kotarak	mibu: TODO list: http://richhickey.backpackit.com/pub/1597914
12:08	mibu	thanks
12:09	kotarak	mibu: feature request are discussed on the Clojure list of google groups
12:09	kotarak	mibu: bugs are dropped here and are immediately fixed by Rich. :)
12:09	mibu	:-)
12:09	kotarak	(of course they can also go to the Clojure list)
12:12	mibu	the group is good to keep track of what's happening right now, but for newcomers (I am one) it's hard to see what was already discussed in the past without reading everything. right now, I'm trying to wrap my head around what's the current status of things and where it's going.
12:14	rhickey_	mibu: I hope to move to a tracker soon, the todo represents those things that made it onto the agenda
12:15	rhickey_	scary - just got rid of clojure namespace
12:15	rhickey_	(and Clojure still works)
12:16	kotarak	Clojure finally transcedented to a higher being and doesn't need such profane things like a namespace anymore.
12:17	mibu	rhickey, is the project right now still rapidly changing or is it converging to something stable enough for production code?
12:17	mibu	(I'm good with rapidly changing. I just need to know)
12:18	AWizzArd	I feel its rapidly changing into something stable for production code :-)
12:18	mibu	:-)
12:18	rhickey_	mibu: there are very few breaking changes. A few have built up and I am putting them in now in prep for a 1.0 release. While there is a lot of dev activity, it's mostly enhancements/additions
12:19	kotarak	I had relatively few troubles lately. The biggest fluctuations in my code were during the require/use/ns transitions.
12:19	AWizzArd	As soon we can compile everything into .class files and deliver apps the biggest hurdle for some companies is gone.
12:19	rhickey_	It only seems rapidly changing for those that want to try the latest toys
12:19	AWizzArd	...and deliver apps without delivering code...
12:20	rhickey_	AWizzArd: coming soon
12:20	AWizzArd	yes, and I am beginning already translations
12:21	AWizzArd	mibu: I think it makes sense to begin now to work on your products. If it is something that needs several months anyway then everything will be in place as soon you are done.
12:22	mibu	I'm all good with changing tech (what else am I doing here?), but my colleague are not. Changing tech means it's improving and not yet bound by compatibility issues and standards (like CL).
12:22	mibu	colleagues*
12:23	AWizzArd	we are not forced to use newer versions.. one could simply stick to one of them and nothing will change
12:24	rhickey_	AWizzArd: true, the only caveat being that right now bug fixes and new features come together
12:25	mibu	awizz: yeah, but when things change fast you want all the latest cool toys at your possesion. otherwise you feel like using tape recorders in a world of Ipods.
12:26	AWizzArd	Yes, that's right. Anyway, Clojure was done mostly right, and I think there won't be dramatic changes that would force us into full rewrites. But standing still like CL mostly is, is also not a good option.
12:30	mibu	I think CL also got the basics right, the only cardinal problem was the libs. Think about CL with a Java like library and it's pretty sweet. Of course, I welcome the much improved changes in clojure.
12:32	AWizzArd	CL still challenges us to not do what it offers: like imperative programming. One of the reasons that CL has not enough libs is that one needs big efforts to make them compatible.
12:32	AWizzArd	Java allows more or less only one way to do it. So everyone has to do it the same way, and often ends up with libs that can be shared and used with/by others.
12:36	mibu	now that I think of it, every single successful language in the last years became successful thanks to a batteries included philosophy--large useful well-documented library. It worked for perl, java, python, and I assert it's also true in relative terms to C.
12:39	AWizzArd	Sure, a large library is the most important factor for productivity. The biggest factor for productivity is code reuse. If systam A already has a lib to do some stuff then making just a few calls is simply the easist thing to do. Clojure is prepared here, as Java offers the more or less biggest code base.
12:43	mibu	now that the library factor is covered, I think concurrency is the biggest issue, and immutability pretty much untangles that. Now the last two factors left is documentation and a following.
13:03	mibu	1088 rev broke something with regexes. Is it just me?
13:03	mibu	(moved from the 0916 release to 1088 svn)
13:05	rhickey_	mibu: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_frm/thread/789b57325c885752/7442ef6e2fc4d0b7?lnk=gst&q=regex#7442ef6e2fc4d0b7
13:05	rhickey_	basically, \ doesn't need to be escaped
13:05	rhickey_	anymore
13:06	mibu	Ah, thanks. That did it.
13:10	mibu	People working with code from Eric Rochester's blog will have problems. http://writingcoding.blogspot.com/2008/06/tokenization-part-2.html
13:12	mibu	Google's captchas are getting ridiculous. I tried living a note about the change in the above link, but couldn't decipher the captcha...
13:13	mibu	*leaving
13:54	AWizzArd	rhickey_: http://clojure.org/functional_programming .. ca. at the middle of that page a (def vec [1 2 3]) is suggested. Most people will have a problem when they try it in the default namespace.
13:58	AWizzArd	rhickey_: a little typo in "defonce". It should be "if" instead of "iff" I guess.
13:59	rhickey_	AWizzArd: page fixed - thanks
14:00	rhickey_	AWizzArd: iff == if and only if
14:00	AWizzArd	I see
14:00	AWizzArd	rhickey_: in (defn concat ... ) there is a (if (seq x) ..) was this supposed to be (seq x) or should it be (seq? x) instead?
14:01	AWizzArd	(in the now newly named core.clj)
14:01	rhickey_	AWizzArd: wow, you are bleeding edge
14:02	rhickey_	it is correct as is, testing a seq for non-nil idiom == is there more?, seq call only needed because it might not yet be one (i.e. an empty vector)
14:18	Jedi_Stannis	Hi, I'm trying to access javax.swing.GroupLayout.Alignment.TRAILING and the other Alignment constants, but can't fgure out the syntax for it in clojure
14:20	Chouser	javax.swing.GroupLayout$Alignment/TRAILING
14:20	Chouser	$ for a nested class, / to access a static member of that class
14:22	Jedi_Stannis	is that document anywhere? I didn't see it anywhere on the website, I knew about / just not $
14:23	rhickey_	Jedi_Stannis: http://clojure.org/java_interop
14:24	Jedi_Stannis	oo, its kinda hidden in the . special form, I was looking for something in bold
14:25	Jedi_Stannis	thanks though
14:26	Jedi_Stannis	I have GroupLayout imported, but still need to fully qualify for $Alignment to work, is that expected?
14:26	rhickey_	GroupLayout and GroupLayout$Alignment are 2 different classes
14:28	rhickey_	you can import it too (import '(javax.swing GroupLayout GroupLayout$Alignment))
14:28	Jedi_Stannis	got it
14:28	Jedi_Stannis	thanks
15:38	AWizzArd	rhickey_: motivated by the google groups kotarak and I were discussing about why do is a special form and not simply implemented as a function: (defn do [& body])
15:42	Chousuke	hmmh
15:42	rhickey_	while everything can be looked at as an expression in CLojure, some things are not actually expressions and I have to fake it, like void methods
15:43	rhickey_	those are exactly the kinds of things you'll have in do bodies, in which case there is no realized expression value produced
15:43	rhickey_	if they were fn args I'd have to produce them
15:43	rhickey_	plus there's some overhead to & body and arg packing
15:44	AWizzArd	I see, thanks
16:28	sohail	do you guys use ns for multi-file projects?
16:29	Chouser	depends on why I'm using more than one file
16:29	sohail	Chouser, interesting statement. for me, I'm writing an app that is getting too big for one file now :-)
16:31	Chouser	clojure.contrib.lazy-xml has two files. The secondary file depends on a 3rdparty lib, so the main file uses load in a try block to use the 3rdparty lib if it's there or to fail gracefully if it's not
16:31	sohail	where is clojure.contrib?
16:32	Chouser	clojure.contrib.zip-filter has a set of features just for xml that not all users will need, so it's in a separate namespace, clojure.contrib.zip-filter.xml
16:33	sohail	Chouser, ok none of these sound like: "This file is too damn big."
16:33	Chouser	https://clojure-contrib.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/clojure-contrib clojure-contrib
16:34	Chouser	sohail: yeah, I haven't run into that problem yet.
16:34	sohail	ok so say you had, would you be using ns for that?
16:34	Chouser	I guess it depends on your definition of "damn", or perhaps "big". Have you seen boot.clj?
16:34	sohail	I have
16:34	Chouser	>3600 LOC -- you've got more than that?
16:35	sohail	no
16:35	sohail	that's pretty damn big though
16:35	sohail	besides, I'm putting a lot of stuff together that really shouldn't be... mixing GUI and non-GUI things
16:35	Chouser	I guess if there are natural divisions, esp. reusable chunks, I might break those into namespaces.
16:36	Chouser	otherwise I'd tend to keep it in one big file.
16:36	Chouser	I'd rather have a big file, then have 2 small ones and not be sure where exactly I put a particular function.
16:36	Chouser	than
16:37	Chouser	gotta go
16:37	AWizzArd	I sometimes can't decide when something should go into another file. And even in one file I am sometimes splitting functions into 2-3 parts, although these are then used only once, for the main function.
16:37	sohail	where's the ant colony simulation code
16:38	sohail	that's gotta be kinda big atleast
16:38	AWizzArd	sohail: check GG or the vid
16:39	sohail	AWizzArd, what is GG?
16:39	sohail	and I saw the vid, but it was not obvious how the code was structured
16:39	AWizzArd	google groups
16:39	AWizzArd	sohail: the code is attached to the vid, there is some link below the vid itself
16:40	sohail	lol, that's tiny
16:42	AWizzArd	150 loc for the non-gui stuff, without comments and whitespace-only lines
17:15	knobo	Is it possible to write java objects in clojure?
17:15	knobo	sorry
17:15	knobo	delete that line
17:15	knobo	Is it possible to define java classes
17:15	kotarak	Yes. With gen-class
17:15	kotarak	(doc gen-class) in the Repl gives more information
17:16	AWizzArd	note it is possible though that gen-class will get replaced by something
17:17	knobo	So I could use clojure when working with tomcat for exaxmple
17:17	AWizzArd	absolutely
17:17	AWizzArd	everywhere, where you can also use Java
17:17	knobo	For mobile-phone applications
17:18	AWizzArd	yes
17:18	AWizzArd	and soon this will be simpler
17:19	knobo	I feel I am starting to become a member of the society again :)
17:19	AWizzArd	the mobile phone stuff will probably be more available in 2009 as I understand it
17:19	knobo	I have been an outsider, programming in common-lisp
17:20	AWizzArd	I also come from CL
17:20	knobo	I actualy have a paid job programming CL :)
17:20	knobo	for now....
17:20	AWizzArd	same with me :-)
17:21	AWizzArd	Clojure will offer most Lispers a way to get a job in which they can do Lisp
17:22	knobo	even openoffice.org
17:23	danlarkin	is there a class that all clojure collections implement?
17:23	AWizzArd	what do you mean?
17:23	AWizzArd	danlarkin: you mean class or interface?
17:23	rhickey_	danlarkin: clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection
17:24	rhickey_	http://clojure.googlegroups.com/web/chart.png
17:24	danlarkin	rhickey_: thanks :)
17:25	rhickey_	chart courtesy of Chouser
17:33	AWizzArd	rhickey_: is it easy to use the Clojure datastructures in Java too?
17:35	rhickey_	AWizzArd: sure, there are interfaces for everything. Their functional style is not idiomatic Java, though
17:36	AWizzArd	But does one need to do a lot of casting? I don't understand the static type system of Java not well enough. I think Clojures DS all work on Object and could need casting
17:37	AWizzArd	-not
17:37	AWizzArd	Moin Lau
17:37	Lau_of_DK	Ola AWizzArd
17:38	rhickey_	AWizzArd: yes, they are all Object based, just like pre-generics Java collections
18:00	sohail	hmm.. anyone getting this with latest clojure: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: Could not initialize class clojure.lang.RT at clojure.lang.Script.main(Script.java:71)
18:00	Lau_of_DK	no
18:00	sohail	seems clojure.lang.Repl has disappeared for me too... maybe I need to rebuild it again
18:01	Lau_of_DK	distclean
18:01	sohail	Target "distclean" does not exist in the project "clojure".
18:02	rhickey_	ant clean ?
18:03	sohail	tried that too
18:04	Lau_of_DK	hehe
18:04	Lau_of_DK	I know, I just meant, clean up the old before you start on the new
18:06	sohail	crap client on phone
18:07	sohail	https://clojure.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/clojure/trunk is the right branch right?
18:08	rhickey_	sohail: stick with rev 1088, lots of changes in last few checkins
18:09	sohail	rhickey_, ok thanks
18:09	sohail	ok this version works
18:10	kotarak	sohail: with the latest check-in clojure is gone.
18:10	kotarak	sohail: clojure is dead, long live clojure.core
18:10	sohail	kotarak, oh noes
18:10	sohail	ah, I see
18:10	sohail	so clojure.core.Repl?
18:10	kotarak	sohail: just kidding. Rework of the clojure namespace.
18:11	kotarak	I think Repl should still be in clojure.lang
18:11	sohail	's not!
18:11	Lau_of_DK	For an immutable language, the namespace-stuff sure mutates alot
18:12	sohail	haha
18:12	Chousuke	heh
18:12	Chousuke	better mutate now than be stuck with a suboptimal solution forever
18:13	duck1123	that's okay, yesterday I did a pull of one of the emacs libs I use. The maintainer switched hosters, and basically told everyone by deleting all the files with the commit message "it's gone"
18:13	Lau_of_DK	haha
18:14	Chousuke	well that'd at least encourage people to investigate what has happened.
18:14	Chousuke	though the commit message could've been better...
18:14	duck1123	and Lau_of_DK, that's one of the benefits of git. even had I not found where it went, I would've still been able to back it up a revision
18:15	Lau_of_DK	Same with SVN though, right duck1123 ?
18:15	duck1123	what if he shut down the server between the time I pulled and realived what happened
18:16	duck1123	rare risk, but still...
18:17	Lau_of_DK	Sure, and if you combine that with a sudden Earth/Moon collision, hitting directly on top of your broad band connection, you might also experience great packet-loss, but as you said.. rare risk
18:18	duck1123	I don't need the moon to hit the earth, I have DSL
18:18	Chousuke	well with GIT you could rehost the old repository easily.
18:18	Chousuke	with SVN all the history would be gone,
18:18	Lau_of_DK	oh I see
18:19	Chousuke	the big thing with git is that any clone of a repository is equal with its origin
18:20	Lau_of_DK	same with SVN though, right?
18:20	Chousuke	no
18:20	Chousuke	with SVN, your checkout is still dependent on the repository you checked out
18:21	Chousuke	you can't for example have other people check out your version of the repo
18:21	Chousuke	which, with git, is trivial :)
18:21	Lau_of_DK	I cant have them checkout my version? What can they checkout then ?
18:22	Chousuke	the repository.
18:22	Lau_of_DK	oh I see, so you mean that Git checksout all the versions when you co ?
18:22	Chousuke	well, kind of.
18:22	Chousuke	it clones the entire repository
18:23	Chousuke	so if you have repository A and clone it as A', then as long as no modifications are made on either repo, they contain the same data
18:24	Chousuke	including history
18:24	Lau_of_DK	k, but thats still the same as SVN though, just excl. history
18:25	arohner	Lau_of_DK: no. In SVN, there is a master/slave relationship. When you check out, you get a copy of the current revision. Doing anything requires talking to the repo that you checked out from.
18:25	Chousuke	but with git, you could make modifications and someone could clone your A'.
18:25	duck1123	with svn, if you can't reach the repository (due to lunar disaster) you can't make any commits
18:26	Chousuke	without even knowing that A existed
18:26	Lau_of_DK	oh I see, so theres more a bittorrent approach to Git
18:26	Lau_of_DK	Theres no central hosting for Git is there, people use their own servers primarily ?
18:26	Chousuke	there's no "master" in git, other than by policy.
18:27	kotarak	Lau_of_DK: there's github
18:27	duck1123	so my github repository is just a copy of what I have here at home
18:27	Chousuke	you can decide that there's a "central" server, but technically it's just another git repo
18:28	Fanda	hello!
18:28	kotarak	Which basically applies to all newer systems: hg, bzr, darcs...
18:28	arohner	Fanda: hi
18:28	Fanda	just wanted to ask, what sources have you used for learning how to write macros
18:28	Fanda	i like clojure very much, but macros give me hard time
18:28	arohner	Fanda: some people have recommended On Lisp
18:29	sohail	hey Lau_of_DK, in your qt api thingy, how are you handling designer stuff?
18:29	duck1123	and mr rules them all
18:29	Fanda	i am looking into: Practical Common Lisp
18:29	Fanda	http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
18:29	Lau_of_DK	Fanda, theres actually a section on the Clojure Wiki about that now
18:29	arohner	Fanda: that's another good option
18:29	arohner	Fanda: reading the clojure source is also good
18:29	Lau_of_DK	sohail, 2 ways: 1) For everything except Webkit, use 'designer' and import the UI, 2) Webkit: Hardcode
18:29	Lau_of_DK	Anyway, thanks to everybody for your explanations on Git vs Svn
18:30	Fanda	yes, I will read all: On Lisp, PCL and wiki :-)
18:30	sohail	Lau_of_DK, so you mean you have an extra juic step?
18:30	arohner	Fanda: in the source tree, src/clj/clojure/boot.clj
18:30	Lau_of_DK	You mean when I dance, or when I code ?
18:30	sohail	Lau_of_DK, both
18:31	Lau_of_DK	sohail, haha
18:31	Lau_of_DK	What do you mean by juic step ?
18:32	sohail	Lau_of_DK, because designer has the ui files, do you use juic to generate the actual code or do you use the dynamic equivalent?
18:32	sohail	I think it's forms
18:32	sohail	I haven't used forms
18:32	Lau_of_DK	oh hang on
18:32	Fanda	arohner & all: thanks for pointers about macros
18:33	Lau_of_DK	sohail, for your education: http://paste.lisp.org/display/69450
18:33	Fanda	it is gonna take me a little time to learn just it... just getting impatient here :-)
18:33	Chousuke	Fanda: if you're going to read PCL, this will help as well: http://blog.thinkrelevance.com/2008/9/16/pcl-clojure
18:33	Fanda	yes, that's true - completely forgot about it :-)
18:34	Fanda	is there any other way than using macroexpand to see what's happening?
18:34	sohail	Lau_of_DK, perfect, that's what I thought
18:34	sohail	right now I'm using code
18:34	sohail	which is so ugly it's not even funny
18:34	Lau_of_DK	hehe, its swing-like ugly
18:34	arohner	Fanda: macroexpand is your best option
18:35	arohner	I'm not sure if there are other options
18:35	arohner	are you an emacs user? because slime makes it very convenient
18:35	Chousuke	Fanda: I think most important is to not get overly excited about macros though.
18:36	Fanda	usually, i just use simple editor and repl
18:36	sohail	Lau_of_DK, well I have never explored this part of the Qt framework before so I will be bugging you :-)
18:36	Fanda	I have worked with macros in the interpreted-only LISP
18:36	Lau_of_DK	sohail, bug away :)
18:36	Fanda	macroexpansion at compile time is new to me
18:37	Lau_of_DK	then you should try compilemacro at expansion time
18:37	Lau_of_DK	..but thats really advanced
18:38	Chousuke	clojure syntax-quote is a bit different from the common lisp quasiquote too. At least, I think so. I haven't yet grasped all of the macro-fu myself either.
18:38	arohner	they're fairly easy to translate between
18:38	arohner	there's a 1-1 correspondance for most things
18:38	Fanda	ok, example
18:38	Fanda	a=1, b=2, c=3
18:39	Chousuke	the namespace-qualifying thing makes a difference though.
18:39	Fanda	(mac a b c) => ((a 1) (b 2) (c 3))
18:39	Fanda	yes, namespaces and other symbol lookups make it hard for me
18:39	arohner	so you want the symbols to be bound to sequential integers starting at 1?
18:40	Fanda	just any symbols
18:40	Fanda	and any numbers
18:42	Fanda	(def a 1) (def b 2) (def c 3)
18:42	sohail	what does this syntax mean? (QIODevice$OpenMode. something)
18:42	Chousuke	sohail: inner class
18:42	sohail	I'm not fully up to snuff on my java interop syntax
18:43	sohail	Chousuke, what about the trailing dot?
18:43	Chousuke	it's "new"
18:43	Chousuke	that's the same as (new QIODevice$OpenMode something)
18:43	sohail	ah
18:51	Fanda	can i have one more question about macros?
18:51	Fanda	let have: (def a 1) (def b 2) (def c 3)
18:51	Fanda	(def lst '(a b c))
18:52	Fanda	what expression do you write in order to evaluate symbols inside the list 'lst'?
18:52	Fanda	user=> `~lst
18:52	Fanda	(a b c)
18:52	Fanda	user=> `(~@lst)
18:52	Fanda	(a b c)
18:53	Fanda	user=> (map eval lst)
18:53	Fanda	(1 2 3)
18:54	danlarkin	Wow, type hints give me a 6x running time decrease
18:54	danlarkin	I didn't expect it to be nearly that much
19:03	verec	rev 1092 throws java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.core$eval__1 (core.clj:0)
19:03	verec	from
19:03	verec	compiledClass = RT.classForName(name);
19:03	verec	line 3198 in Compiler.getCompiledClass
19:03	verec	???
19:04	danlarkin	verec: revert to r1088 for a while
19:05	verec	Ah. OK. Thx
19:06	arohner	do type hints work in the middle of function calls?
19:06	arohner	i.e. (foo #^java.lang.String bar)?
19:08	arohner	and, on a javadoc, what does "..." mean in the type signature?
19:08	danlarkin	arohner: I don't think it works that way, only in function arg lists that I know of
19:08	Chousuke	arohner: variadic?
19:09	arohner	huh. Didn't know java supported that
19:27	arohner	oh, that was fun.
19:27	arohner	in this instance (I'm not sure about all), ... meant "array of"
19:27	arohner	and if you want an array of strings, (into-array string) is not what you want
19:27	arohner	you want (into-array [string])
19:28	arohner	otherwise you get an array of chars
20:17	AWizzArd	Is there a string-reverse? (str-reverse "123") ==> "321"
20:19	rhickey_	AWizzArd: (str (reverse "123")) ?
20:19	AWizzArd	I know how to do this without a str-reverse, I'm just curious if there is something like that.
20:19	rhickey_	no dedicated function
20:20	AWizzArd	(str (reverse "123")) ==> "(\\3 \\2 \\1)" for me
20:20	AWizzArd	(reverse "123") ==> (\3 \2 \1)
20:20	Chouser	(apply str (reverse "123"))
20:21	AWizzArd	Chouser: yes, I am doing this so far
20:21	Chouser	you could lobby Stuart Sierra to add it to clojure.contrib.str-utils
20:21	AWizzArd	ok
20:24	AWizzArd	How would you name it if you had to chose a name for it?
20:24	rhickey_	ick
20:25	AWizzArd	What does it stand for?
20:25	rhickey_	do we need such specialized fns?
20:25	AWizzArd	not necessarily
20:25	AWizzArd	depending on how regular people reverse strings
20:26	AWizzArd	but one could argue if people would expect (reverse "123") to return "321" or (\3 \2 \1)
20:27	Chouser	reverse returns a seq.
20:27	Chouser	(reverse [1 2 3]) doesn't return a vector, so why should (revers "123") return a string?
20:27	AWizzArd	right
20:27	AWizzArd	although it's probably what most people would think about it first
20:28	AWizzArd	if reverse were a multimethod one could dispatch for the argument type
20:29	AWizzArd	whatever, (apply str (reverse my-string)) is fair enough
20:43	scgilardi	rhickey_: I'd be happy to update the former contents of boot.clj to the lispy Java interop syntax if that would be helpful and isn't already being tackled.
20:45	rhickey_	scgilardi: at some point that would be great - but right now I've got it my hands deep in - just booted Clojure with no source - all from classfiles!!
20:45	rhickey_	hands deep in it
20:45	scgilardi	rhickey: ok, cool. Nice! another milestone passed.
20:46	rhickey_	boots like lightning
20:47	rhickey_	scgilardi: you might want to think about how lib will work when we have pre-compiled libs, some sort of try the class first, then the source
20:47	rhickey_	for load
20:51	scgilardi	yes, ok. maybe a new flag to force a compile or recompile as well. I haven't looked at the newest yet, is there a new routine to load a class file compiled from Clojure?
20:53	rhickey_	scgilardi: not yet, still working out loading logistics. We'll need compile, load, compile-and-load - still subject to limits for reloading of classes, i.e. reload must always be from source
20:58	scgilardi	rhickey_: is that a limitation to preserve programmer sanity or something more fundamental to how things work?
20:58	rhickey_	Java can't load a class twice into same classloader
20:58	scgilardi	does it also have no notion of unloading?
20:59	rhickey_	yes, no unloading
20:59	scgilardi	ok I understand
21:14	sohail	runonce
21:14	sohail	is it even possible with STM?
21:14	sohail	I think it isn't
21:14	sohail	so maybe Stuart shouldn't be using refs and friends for runonce
21:20	rhickey_	woo hoo!! AOT rocks!
21:20	AWizzArd	grats
21:21	rhickey_	clojure.jar with no source inside
21:21	Chouser	nice
21:21	scgilardi	and we were here when...
21:21	scgilardi	don't be goin' closed source on us.
21:22	rhickey_	source on the side
21:22	scgilardi	special source
21:22	rhickey_	sadly, clojure.jar crosses 1mb mark
21:23	rhickey_	would still fit on floppy if they existed
21:23	AWizzArd	perhaps one day there could be deployment tools, like those for CL that can strip out parts that will not be used in the app itself
21:24	Chouser	my clojure.jar is half that
21:24	rhickey_	Chouser: right, precompiling doubles it
21:24	Chouser	even without the source, huh?
21:24	rhickey_	I haven;t worked on size at all
21:25	Chouser	sure
21:25	rhickey_	including source only adds 150k
21:25	AWizzArd	but it seems to reduce loading times a little :-)
21:25	Chouser	hm. .jar's can be zipped, can't they?
21:25	Chouser	anyway, shouldn't matter much.
21:26	rhickey_	reduces load times a lot - hard to measure, but it may be 5-10x reduction over Java baseline
21:26	rhickey_	gotta run
21:26	AWizzArd	Chouser: .jar's already are zipped
21:27	Chouser	AWizzArd: ah
21:28	scgilardi	I know the latest svn is marked interim, do not use, but I gather it's possible to use. For me, it fails with ExceptionInInitializer in Repl.java. What's the trick?
21:29	AWizzArd	n8 n8
21:38	scgilardi	sohail: could it perhaps be done with a counter instead of a boolean? Would it be possible for one of the parallel invocations to know that he was the one that accomplished the transition from 0 to 1 on a runcount and proceed with the run?
21:40	sohail	scgilardi, or just use a mutex and boolean :-)
21:40	scgilardi	from java.util.concurrent yep.
21:41	sohail	i'm sure java has some more efficient interface to pthread_once
21:42	scgilardi	sounds right. I haven't thought through all the options for updating a ref in a transaction. Everything I've done has worked with commute.
21:42	sohail	scgilardi, I think the counter wouldnt work either
21:43	scgilardi	it seems that if the update were done in a dosync before running the function, a call to ensure could allow one thread to know it was the one that made the 0 to 1 transition.
21:43	sohail	whats dosync anyway
21:44	scgilardi	in fact, that's the same as a false to true transition, so a counter isn't necessary, it's just necssary to know that the ref was false before (this thread) changed it.
21:44	sohail	well if there are no side effects then it doesnt matter really
21:45	scgilardi	dosync wraps Clojure's ref operations
21:45	scgilardi	it seems that runonce would only be useful when there are side effects.
21:45	sohail	yep :-)
21:46	sohail	I don't have my head quite wrapped around STM but my understanding is that each transaction occurs within a timeline, so two could occur at the same time in the same timeline
21:47	sohail	only one will succeed of course, but the effects are that it ain't runonce!
21:48	scgilardi	If only one thread will run the function and that thread will only run it once, it seems to me that it is exactly runonce.
21:48	sohail	I think it is still possible for two threads to run the function
21:48	sohail	you need the stm guy, rich to tell you it ain't so!
21:51	Jedi_Stannis	is there a way to eval in the current scope? I have a gui program that is trying to call eval on the text in a text field, but it can't find the function I have defined. the same function works fine from the repl
21:56	Chouser	(binding [ns (find-ns 'user)] (eval ...))
21:57	Chouser	oh, maybe not
21:59	Chouser	yeah, I think that's it.
21:59	Jedi_Stannis	chouser: nope, that worked
21:59	Jedi_Stannis	thanks
22:30	julian_morrison_	hi, folks
22:30	Chouser	hi
22:31	julian_morrison_	does anyone know how to use (with-open x y ...) in a macro? defmacro qualifies the x and then complains about letting a qualified symbol
22:32	duck1123	~x
22:32	duck1123	I've been fighting that all weekend
22:32	julian_morrison_	and to access it from inside after expansion?
22:33	julian_morrison_	supposing it's JDBC and the x will end up being the conn
22:33	duck1123	you use x at first, ~x later
22:33	julian_morrison_	can you paste an example?
22:38	duck1123	one sec
22:38	julian_morrison_	I'm trying to (defmacro connected ([& body] `(with-open conn (DriverManager/getConnection ...) ~@body))) and then (connected (.createStatement conn))
22:39	julian_morrison_	do I need to use vars and bindings?
22:39	duck1123	http://github.com/duck1123/mycyclopedia/tree/4adfd71e42f626cf5f6fd2630a1bc2c16e1915a0/app/model/entry/entry.clj
22:39	duck1123	look at with-model
22:40	julian_morrison_	Ah. Thanks, that's about perfect.
22:41	duck1123	looks like we were doing very similar things.
22:41	duck1123	you were probably thinking about bindings due to clojure.contrib.sql
23:13	danlarkin	wow, 2x running time difference between passing around a hash-map of args versus each function having n number of arguments
23:14	duck1123	wow
23:14	duck1123	how many args?
23:15	danlarkin	4
23:16	duck1123	is there a fn that'll take a seq and filter out the dups?
23:16	danlarkin	I think it's all the object creation the JVM has to do, it isn't very fast at that type of thing I think
23:16	duck1123	nvm, found it
23:23	danlarkin	is there a better way to express this: (if (nil? (first coll)) 'foo (first coll))?
23:25	Chouser	(if-let x (first coll) x 'foo)
23:26	Chouser	soon to be (if-let [x (first coll)] x 'foo)
23:26	Chouser	...assuming it's ok to treat "false" like "nil"
23:27	danlarkin	in this case it is indeed