#clojure – 2015-05-26

2015-05-26

01:44	curtmack	So... I'm getting an error that I can't type hint a primite local, but I'm using the (long-array arg) form as recommended, and if I do nothing then I get a reflection warning with warn-on-reflection turned on
01:44	curtmack	am I just SOL or is this a bug of some sort?
01:48	curtmack	Example with no type-hinting: http://ideone.com/Cajkyx , example with type-hinting: http://ideone.com/0nxeYJ
01:49	andyf	My memory isn't perfectly clear on this, but I have a recollection that asset is easier to type hint than the aset-* variants.
01:49	andyf	s/asset/aset/
01:50	amalloy	you can't typehint protocol functions anyway. type hints are for interop
01:51	amalloy	and you have a ton of needless code in here: (all your record's fields are in scope in method/protocol implementations, so you can just write state instead of (:state self)
01:51	andyf	Also try hinting ^longs on old-state when it is bound to a value in the let, before using ager on it.
01:52	andyf	sigh. s/ager/aget/
01:52	curtmack	andyf: still doesn't work
01:52	amalloy	andyf: it shouldn't need any hints at all there, if he just uses state instead of (:state self)
01:52	andyf	Yeah, listen to amalloy. He is probably more awake and has more recent relevant experience with this.
01:52	curtmack	amalloy: OH, that helps a lot... legitimately did not know that
01:53	amalloy	the compiler can infer types if you use the fields directly, but if you do a keyword lookup it doesn't know what type it will come up with
01:54	curtmack	okay yeah that worked, thanks a lot
01:54	curtmack	that makes sense
01:58	amalloy	curtmack: also, your shuffle doesn't look fair
01:58	amalloy	try it on the two-element deck [0 1] - i predict you will get out [0 1] 100% of the time
01:58	amalloy	er, [1 0] is what i rpedict you will get
01:59	curtmack	oh right, good catch
02:00	curtmack	it's supposed to be mod (inc i)
02:00	curtmack	0 <= j <= i
02:41	curtmack	exit
03:31	crocket	Does scala interoperate with clojure well and vice versa?
03:32	tdammers	currently my test suite of 3 rather trivial assertions takes about 30 seconds to run (lein test), is there anything I can do to bring this down to something workable?
03:32	tdammers	(I'm running on a brand new i7 with plenty of RAM, so "throw more hardware at it" is not going to be the solution)
03:39	amalloy	tdammers: the problem is vague enough ("my program is slow") that the only possible answers are "throw more hardware at it" or "write a better program"
03:44	TEttinger	tdammers: clojure does have kinda long startup time, there's several factors at work here and some are pretty solvable
03:44	TEttinger	one is lein itself
03:45	TEttinger	if your project is large, lein has to do a lot to get the whole project loaded, and lein itself needs to get up and running
03:46	TEttinger	grenchman is a rewrite of part of lein in OCaml that can call standard clojure lein and use project.clj, etc. but start up like OCaml (faster)
03:46	TEttinger	drip solves the JVM startup time issue
03:47	TEttinger	a JVM needs to load a 32 MB file completely into RAM every time it starts up, and before it has even started the HotSpot JIT compiler
03:47	TEttinger	(load from disk)
03:47	TEttinger	Drip does the loading and warming up long before you actually invoke lein
03:48	luxbock	does anyone here use a Clojure REPL as a shell replacement?
03:48	TEttinger	and keeps a spare JVM warmed up for when you want it
03:48	luxbock	i.e. have one REPL session running all the time with some handy libraries loaded
03:48	TEttinger	I think many people do, luxbock
03:49	TEttinger	I don't, personally, I haven't been too bothered by startup time
03:50	luxbock	if anyone sees my message, please do share the list of libraries you load :)
03:50	luxbock	TEttinger: right so the idea would be that this REPL session would be running at all times
03:51	luxbock	so startup time wouldn't be an issue
03:51	TEttinger	yah
03:51	TEttinger	I mean if I need it, I just start up a new one
03:51	TEttinger	I usually use lazybot or clojurebot for simple repl stuff
03:51	TEttinger	or my own lazybot
03:52	luxbock	you have your own lazybot?
03:52	luxbock	is it high maintenance?
03:52	TEttinger	not any more
03:52	TEttinger	it used to be
03:52	luxbock	had to put it down? :(
03:52	TEttinger	I added a feature that makes it start itself up again if it dies
03:52	TEttinger	http://i.imgur.com/Po3ZsbH.png
03:53	TEttinger	it hasn't needed maintenance in months
03:58	jefelante	offhand, anyone know an example of an application that stores state relationally in memory and queries it with core logic?
04:13	sm0ke	problem is you THINK that what you THINK is RELAITY
04:13	sm0ke	snap out of it
04:13	bendlas	,(do (declare x) (meta #'x))
04:13	clojurebot	{:declared true, :line 0, :column 0, :file "NO_SOURCE_PATH", :name x, ...}
04:14	bendlas	,(do (declare x) ((juxt :namespace :name)(meta #'x)))
04:14	clojurebot	[nil x]
04:14	sm0ke	,(do (declare x) (:namespace (meta #'x)))
04:14	clojurebot	nil
04:14	bendlas	,(do (declare x) ((juxt :ns :name)(meta #'x)))
04:14	clojurebot	[#object[clojure.lang.Namespace 0x7fb7a98f "sandbox"] x]
04:14	sm0ke	,(do (declare x) (:ns (meta #'x)))
04:14	clojurebot	#object[clojure.lang.Namespace 0x7fb7a98f "sandbox"]
04:14	sm0ke	bendlas: you monsterr
04:14	sm0ke	thanks
04:14	sm0ke	(inc bendlas)
04:14	lazybot	⇒ 3
04:15	bendlas	,(do (declare x) ((juxt (comp #(.getName %) :ns) :name)(meta #'x)))
04:15	clojurebot	[sandbox x]
04:15	bendlas	^^
04:17	crocket	sm0ke, The same could be said about you unless you give me convincing arguments.
04:17	crocket	Many people don't like working with scala for Scala's complexity
04:17	crocket	Clojure is simple and elegant.
04:18	bendlas	scala wins out when optimizing for http://xkcd.com/303/
04:19	crocket	bendlas, The same can be said about C++.
04:20	sm0ke	,(do (declare x) (ns foo) (def y sandbox/x) (:ns (meta y)))
04:20	clojurebot	nil
04:20	sm0ke	,(do (declare x) (ns foo) (def y sandbox/x) (:ns (meta #'y)))
04:20	clojurebot	#object[clojure.lang.Namespace 0x647c4297 "foo"]
04:20	sm0ke	bendlas: how do i get sandbox instead
04:21	bendlas	crocket: yep, but C++ also wins in a lot of other categories, like allocation-free code or introducing unintentional remote-management capabilities ^^
04:22	sm0ke	C is the best
04:22	crocket	C isn't the best.
04:22	crocket	Clojure is one of the best general purpose programming languages.
04:22	sm0ke	crocket: you will relaize one day how right i was
04:23	crocket	sm0ke, I know where C is the best and where it is not.
04:23	crocket	C dominates system programming.
04:23	bendlas	,(do (def x "x-val") (ns foo) (def y sandbox/x) ((juxt (comp :ns meta) identity) #'y))
04:23	clojurebot	[#object[clojure.lang.Namespace 0x647c4297 "foo"] #'foo/y]
04:23	crocket	In web programming and general programming, C sucks a lot
04:23	bendlas	,(do (def x "x-val") (ns foo) (def y sandbox/x) ((juxt (comp :ns meta) deref) #'y))
04:23	clojurebot	[#object[clojure.lang.Namespace 0x647c4297 "foo"] "x-val"]
04:23	crocket	In general programming, I tend to use clojure.
04:23	bendlas	what's the problem?
04:24	crocket	C has weakly static typing, which sucks.
04:24	sm0ke	bendlas: i will show you
04:24	sm0ke	,(do (declare x) (ns foo) (def y sandbox/x) (str y))
04:24	clojurebot	"x-val"
04:24	bendlas	any typing but dependent typing is weak to klingons
04:24	sm0ke	,(do (declare xx) (ns foo) (def y sandbox/xx) (str y))
04:24	clojurebot	"Unbound: #'sandbox/xx"
04:24	crocket	Rust as a language beats C and C++.
04:25	sm0ke	so i am trying to get the topmost binding ns
04:26	bendlas	sm0ke: I don't understand, you just declare xx, without defining it, thus it's unbound, but the var object exists in the expected ns
04:26	oddcully	rust, paper, scissors
04:28	bendlas	sm0ke: the current ns is ,*ns
04:28	bendlas	erm ...
04:28	bendlas	,ns
04:28	clojurebot	#object[clojure.lang.Namespace 0x426e9bbf "sandbox"]
04:28	sm0ke	i want to get the Root ns of a var
04:29	sm0ke	,(do (declare x) (ns foo) (def y sandbox/x) (:ns (meta (.getRawRoot #'y))))
04:29	clojurebot	nil
04:29	sm0ke	i fail
04:29	sm0ke	,(do (declare x) (ns foo) (def y sandbox/x) (.getRawRoot #'y))
04:29	clojurebot	"x-val"
04:29	sm0ke	,(do (declare xx) (ns foo) (def y sandbox/xx) (.getRawRoot #'y))
04:29	clojurebot	#object[clojure.lang.Var$Unbound 0x37d710ef "Unbound: #'sandbox/xx"]
04:29	bendlas	sm0ke: as soon as you get the var root, it's not the var anymore
04:30	sm0ke	,(do (declare xx) (ns foo) (def y sandbox/xx) (.getNameSpace (.getRawRoot #'y)))
04:30	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "No matching field found: getNameSpace for class clojure.lang.Var$Unbound"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.IllegalArgumentException\n :message "No matching field found: getNameSpace for class clojure.lang.Var$Unbound"\n :at [clojure.lang.Reflector getInstanceField "Reflector.java" 271]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.lang.Reflector getInstanceField "Reflector.java" 271]\n [clojure.lang.Re...
04:30	bendlas	values don't retain information about their containing var
04:30	sm0ke	then what is getRawRoot for?
04:31	bendlas	if you want to get around thread-local binding in a ^:dynamic var
04:31	bendlas	sm0ke: so, mostly an implementation detail
04:33	sm0ke	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Var.java#L170
04:33	sm0ke	only if somehow i could get hold of that `ns`
04:35	bendlas	sm0ke: you can, but not from the contained value. don't be confused by that `clojure.lang.Var$Unbound`, that's debugging info and should not be relied upon
04:36	bendlas	you need to get the #'var-object, which can be done at runtime by (resolve 'var-object)
04:36	bendlas	then get the ns from meta
04:40	sm0ke	i think i got it
04:40	sm0ke	,(do (declare xx) (ns foo) (def y sandbox/xx) (.. (.getRawRoot #'y) v ns))
04:40	clojurebot	#object[clojure.lang.Namespace 0x1d37da3a "sandbox"]
04:40	sm0ke	enjoy!! :D
04:41	sm0ke	surely not to be relied upon though
04:42	bendlas	well, yeah
04:47	bendlas	,(do (declare triple-x) (.. triple-x v ns))
04:47	clojurebot	#object[clojure.lang.Namespace 0x1d37da3a "sandbox"]
04:48	sm0ke	,(do (declare xx) (ns foo) (def y sandbox/xx) (.. #'y v ns))
04:48	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "No matching field found: v for class clojure.lang.Var"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.IllegalArgumentException\n :message "No matching field found: v for class clojure.lang.Var"\n :at [clojure.lang.Reflector getInstanceField "Reflector.java" 271]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.lang.Reflector getInstanceField "Reflector.java" 271]\n [clojure.lang.Reflector invokeNoArgInstanceMember "Ref...
04:48	sm0ke	,(do (declare xx) (ns foo) (def y sandbox/xx) (.. y v ns))
04:48	clojurebot	#object[clojure.lang.Namespace 0x1d37da3a "sandbox"]
04:48	sm0ke	weird
04:49	sm0ke	so getRawRoot is not required at all?
04:49	bendlas	no, why should it?
04:50	bendlas	clojure.lang.Var$Unbound is the class of a value, that represents debugging-info, with which `declare d vars are initialized
04:51	bendlas	.getRawRoot is implicit to any (non-dynamic) var reference
04:52	bendlas	Var$Unbound is a relatively recent addition, some time ago, references to just-declared vars threw exceptions
04:54	sm0ke	sorry i dont understand
04:54	sm0ke	but i am guessing `v` would always point to the root variable
05:05	bendlas-mobile	sm0ke, no
05:05	bendlas-mobile	,(do (def triple-x "foo") (.. triple-x v ns))
05:05	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "No matching field found: v for class java.lang.String"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.IllegalArgumentException\n :message "No matching field found: v for class java.lang.String"\n :at [clojure.lang.Reflector getInstanceField "Reflector.java" 271]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.lang.Reflector getInstanceField "Reflector.java" 271]\n [clojure.lang.Reflector invokeNoArgInstanceMember "Ref...
05:05	bendlas-mobile	there is no "root variable"
05:06	bendlas-mobile	Each variable has a root slot
05:10	zot	what is the idiomatic way to convert [:a :b :c] -> {:a (f :a), :b (f :b), :c (f :c)}?
05:10	bendlas-mobile	That slot just holds the current value of the var
05:11	Bronsa	zot zipmap+map
05:11	justin_smith	,(into {} (map (juxt identity name) [:a :b :c])
05:11	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
05:11	justin_smith	,(into {} (map (juxt identity name) [:a :b :c]))
05:11	clojurebot	{:a "a", :b "b", :c "c"}
05:12	tdammers	TEttinger: thanks for the pointers, I'll look into it
05:12	Bronsa	,(let [v [:a :b :c] f name] (zipmap v (map f v))
05:12	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
05:12	Bronsa	,(let [v [:a :b :c] f name] (zipmap v (map f v)))
05:12	clojurebot	{:a "a", :b "b", :c "c"}
05:12	zot	tnx Bronsa and justin_smith :) perhaps canonical is too strong a word :)
05:22	mmeix	just reading about transducers ... is this something, a beginner should learn alongside the basics, or afterwards?
05:23	bensu	mmeix, afterwards, when you are comfortable transforming collections
05:23	mmeix	(being fluent enough with map filter reduce & co.)
05:25	mmeix	would it change code radically, or can I rework later, without writing much from scratch?
05:28	m1dnight_	Guys, I'm trying to resolve the value of a var at runtime by its string name but I cant seem to succeed
05:28	m1dnight_	I always get #'user/myvar
05:28	m1dnight_	not the actual value
05:28	m1dnight_	(def myvar 1) (ns-resolve ns (symbol "myvar")) is what im doing now
05:35	m1dnight_	get-var!
05:36	justin_smith	,@(resolve '+)
05:36	clojurebot	#object[clojure.core$_PLUS_ 0x5f47e56f "clojure.core$_PLUS_@5f47e56f"]
05:36	justin_smith	m1dnight_: all you need is to deref
05:36	bendlas-mobile	Beware, ns is tricky
05:37	justin_smith	m1dnight_: also, for things you use as functions, you don't need to deref
05:37	bendlas-mobile	Only properly works in top level
05:37	justin_smith	,(#'+ 2 2)
05:37	clojurebot	4
05:38	bendlas-mobile	Or during compile time
05:41	m1dnight_	ah like that
05:41	m1dnight_	okay I get it
05:41	m1dnight_	thanks guys
08:47	dysfun	how cheap are core.async channels? i'm wondering if you're better off passing a message with a correlation id or just creating a new one-use channel for a response
08:48	dysfun	well, not one-use, but per-id
09:32	crocket	Does http://dpaste.com/2PYB0ZD leak a channel?
09:33	crocket	I see no point at which the channel is destroyed.
09:33	crocket	or closed
09:35	auxchar	I wonder if you need a timeout, maybe.
09:36	justin_smith	crocket: if you write a nil to the channel it will be closed and the go loop reading it will stop, iirc
09:37	justin_smith	also, consider (repeatedly num-quotes #(put! c (rand-quote)))
09:37	justin_smith	for the last line
09:38	crocket	justin_smith, That function was for side effect.
09:38	justin_smith	crocket: oh, sorry, I forgot repeatedly was lazy
09:39	justin_smith	,(dorun (repeatedly num-quotes #(put! c (rand-quote))))
09:39	justin_smith	err
09:39	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Unable to resolve symbol: num-quotes in this context"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: num-quotes in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyze "Compiler.java" 6543]}\n {:type java.lang.RuntimeException\n :message "Unable to resolve symbol: num...
09:59	auxchar	You'll have to excuse me, I'm new at this, but holy cow, you can put docstrings on any var!? That's awesome.
09:59	ToxicFrog	Yep.
10:00	auxchar	Well, those magic number vars just got a whole lot more useful.
10:01	crocket	How does a go process even exit on http://dpaste.com/2PYB0ZD ?
10:01	crocket	It is on an infinite loop.
10:01	crocket	Does it mean http://dpaste.com/2PYB0ZD leaks a go process?
10:02	justin_smith	crocket: you should check if the channel is closed (and close the channel)
10:02	justin_smith	also, you don't need to start a go in order to send a message, just use put! which is async and works outside a go block
10:03	crocket	justin_smith, If you read it again, I called put! outside a go block.
10:03	justin_smith	so if you really want the dotimes with unused n (dotimes [_ num-quotes] (put! c (random-quote)))
10:03	justin_smith	you don't
10:03	crocket	Look again
10:03	justin_smith	I read it again
10:03	crocket	oops
10:04	justin_smith	also, it's good to use _ instead of n
10:04	justin_smith	that indicates you aren't using the binding
10:04	crocket	,(doc >!)
10:04	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
10:04	crocket	Whut
10:04	crocket	,(doc put!)
10:04	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
10:04	crocket	Whut
10:04	justin_smith	,(require 'clojure.core.async)
10:04	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Could not locate clojure/core/async__init.class or clojure/core/async.clj on classpath."\n :via\n [{:type java.io.FileNotFoundException\n :message "Could not locate clojure/core/async__init.class or clojure/core/async.clj on classpath."\n :at [clojure.lang.RT load "RT.java" 449]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.lang.RT load "RT.java" 449]\n [clojure.lang.RT load "RT.java" 412]\n [cl...
10:04	oddcully	its not in clojure.core
10:04	crocket	puts a val into port. nil values are not allowed. Must be called
10:04	crocket	inside a (go ...) block. Will park if no buffer space is available.
10:04	crocket	Returns true unless port is already closed.
10:04	oddcully	hence the bot insulting you
10:05	crocket	The documentation of >! tells me to use >! inside a go block.
10:05	crocket	Fair deal
10:05	crocket	justin_smith, ^^
10:05	justin_smith	that's why I said use put!
10:06	justin_smith	"Asynchronously puts a val into port..."
10:06	crocket	justin_smith, ok
10:06	crocket	put! is not the same thing as >!
10:07	justin_smith	right
10:07	justin_smith	put! is the one to use if all you are doing is putting a value onto a channel, no need to make a go block for that
10:08	credulous	Hey, folks: etiquette question. I asked a question in #clojure-beginners because it's embarrassingly basic. That channel seems a bit quiet though? Should I just be more patient or is that channel dead?
10:09	crocket	justin_smith, Can you have a look at http://dpaste.com/3CS2N3H and tell me how to close the go block?
10:11	crocket	If while-let existed, it would be easy to do so.
10:16	tcrayford____	credulous: think it's up to you. Certainly there are folk who hang around in there a bunch. It's probably quiet because of time of day
10:18	crocket	Is it simple to interface JavaFX in clojure?
10:18	credulous	Thanks tcrayford____, I'll keep it there then
10:18	tcrayford____	credulous: if it's more urgent I'd typically ask in here
10:19	tcrayford____	or rn, feel free to ask me directly :)
10:20	credulous	Not urgent, just rookie. Beginner at both Clojure and Emacs. Trying to load "buddy" library in the repl, can't seem to do it.
10:21	credulous	I've run "lein deps" for the project and it works fine
10:21	credulous	but:
10:21	credulous	user> (require 'buddy)
10:21	credulous	FileNotFoundException Could not locate buddy__init.class or buddy.clj on classpath: clojure.lang.RT.load (RT.java:443)
10:21	sandbags	crocket: there is a project for that
10:21	credulous	Happens no matter what ns I'm in
10:22	crocket	sandbags, Actually I found two projects so far.
10:22	crocket	https://bitbucket.org/zilti/clojurefx and https://github.com/aaronc/fx-clj
10:22	sandbags	crocket: i was going to say actually there should be 3
10:22	sandbags	the one i looked at is by Tim.... i forget
10:22	tcrayford____	credulous: looks like that namespace doesn't exist, I guess?
10:22	sandbags	kind of React for JavaFX
10:23	sandbags	fn-fx
10:23	sandbags	https://github.com/halgari/fn-fx
10:23	tcrayford____	credulous: which bit of buddy were you looking to use/were you following a tutorial?
10:23	credulous	That's what it looks like to me... but I get the same error for (require 'buddy.core) and (require 'buddy.core.hash)
10:23	credulous	Loosely following a tutorial, but wanted to experiment with the sha2 and sha3 hashing functions
10:24	sandbags	crocket: i liked the fn-fx concept but I am not sufficiently versed in JavaFX to use it and I was afraid that Tim, having so many other commitments, wouldn't continue developing it
10:24	tcrayford____	credulous: wanna link the tutorial then?
10:24	credulous	The code that I "require" buddy in compiles fine, but I don't know if that means anything
10:24	schmir	crocket: I decided to use java interop with some small helper functions in order to use javafx..it's easy enough
10:24	tcrayford____	credulous: looks like `(require 'buddy.core.hash)` should work
10:25	credulous	urk
10:25	credulous	Pasted that in from the git page just as you were typing
10:25	credulous	Rubber duck moment.
10:25	tcrayford____	np
10:29	crocket	schmir, You juse use plain JavaFX on clojure?
10:29	crocket	POJO
10:29	schmir	crocket: yes, with some small helper functions.
10:31	crocket	schmir, Can you show me the codebase?
10:31	schmir	crocket: no, sorry. it's not open source
10:32	crocket	Damn you
10:35	maxpn	'lein repl' in project directory uses different timezone offset than 'lein repl' in home directory. How it is possible?
10:36	maxpn	it is with clj-time
10:36	gfredericks	that's fascinating
10:37	gfredericks	I think `lein repl` in the homedir creates a repl inside the lein jvm, but no idea if/how that's related
10:37	maxpn	it could be with old timezone info file
10:38	maxpn	what is the difference betweein 'lein repl' with project.clj and whihout?
10:39	maxpn	where it could find old incorrect zonefile?
10:43	arav93	Are there any Indians here?
10:44	arav93	I just wanted to know if there are clojure conferences in India
10:44	arav93	*there are any
11:00	sdegutis	Hello.
11:14	wasamasa	hey
11:16	sdegutis	wasamasa: you're into Clojure now?
11:16	wasamasa	sdegutis: well, yeah
11:16	sdegutis	wasamasa: well at least you got a good start on Emacs first
11:17	wasamasa	sdegutis: not like that helps me understanding how to start hacking on something less toy-like than what I've written so far
11:17	sdegutis	wasamasa: I haven't seen Clojure that doesn't look toy-like from a distance; it's part of the language's charm
11:17	sdegutis	The language doesn't take itself too seriously like Java does.
11:18	wasamasa	I mean, the project
11:18	wasamasa	sure, it's nice that someone figured out how to make the problem of organizing a complex application sound less enterprisey and more functional
11:18	wasamasa	yes, I'm refering to https://github.com/stuartsierra/component
11:19	sdegutis	Can anyone see the pattern I'm missing here? I've got two functions which take a state and a param, and return a new state and a new object. And I want to compose them naturally, so that I can create a wrapper function which calls them both, and returns the second new state, along with both newly created objects.
11:20	sdegutis	Here's the code: https://gist.github.com/sdegutis/20a3ba5f4e1cb826de04
11:20	sdegutis	wasamasa: Oh. I've never used Component. Heard a lot about it though. Then again I heard a lot about Pedastal back in the day. I usually wait about 2 years to see how well a library plays out before using it.
11:20	sdegutis	wasamasa: That said, Component does look handy.
11:21	wasamasa	oh, sure
11:21	sdegutis	Crap. My question got lost amidst a separate conversation.
11:21	wasamasa	but what if I don't want to stub or mock and just explore how something works
11:21	sdegutis	Welp.
11:21	wasamasa	in a REPL
11:21	sdegutis	wasamasa: lein repl
11:22	sdegutis	lein pretty much solved every tooling problem in Clojure
11:22	sdegutis	lein test, lein repl, lein uberjar, etc
11:22	sdegutis	oh, and lein run
11:22	wasamasa	sdegutis: it's more about, how the hell do I access the database used by the utility functions involving it built around that model
11:22	wasamasa	sdegutis: to make use of them
11:22	sdegutis	It's like somehow they knew what we needed to get done!
11:23	sdegutis	wasamasa: huh?
11:24	wasamasa	sdegutis: it is somewhere, I know
11:26	wasamasa	sdegutis: look at the example
11:28	wasamasa	sdegutis: how would you test any of the functions making up the behaviour of the database component?
11:29	sandbags	wasamasa: maybe look at ring.mock.request and see if you can cook up something equivalent for your db?
11:30	wasamasa	sandbags: I want to make use of the db as used by the web application
11:30	wasamasa	sandbags: this must surely be possible, no
11:30	justin_smith	wasamasa: this is what I use stuartsierra's component lib for
11:30	sandbags	wasamasa: i'm not sure what problem you are having then
11:31	justin_smith	wasamasa: each component is a stateful resource, that can be substituted at testing time, or initialized individually for repl hacking
11:42	crocket	WooHoo
11:43	justin_smith	crocket: so you end up with something like (go-loop [] (if-let [input (<! c)] ... (recur)) (println "loop exit"))) or whatever
11:44	justin_smith	that's bad paren nesting, but I hope you get the idea
11:44	wasamasa	or I just use the var it was established with :P
11:44	justin_smith	wasamasa: I mean in a unit test you can instantiate a component on its own
11:44	justin_smith	without needing to create the whole nested system
11:45	justin_smith	so each component can have isolated tests
11:46	justin_smith	wasamasa: not that this can't be done in normal code, but the component system makes the discipline of isolating functionality much more natural to maintain
11:48	wasamasa	justin_smith: I'll keep that in mind when it comes to writing more tests
11:48	wasamasa	justin_smith: so far the codebase got asserts here and there
11:48	crocket	What is transducer?
11:48	justin_smith	crocket: it separetes the logic of computation from the containers that the results would be put into
11:49	justin_smith	crocket: for example, usually if you use map or filter, this means creating a lazy seq, but with the transducer version, you pick where the results go directly
11:49	crocket	ok
11:51	justin_smith	crocket: for example, if you have nested map calls, you create as many lazy-seqs as you have calls to map. But composed map transducers compose directly without making intermediate collections.
12:10	mmeix	(just watching Stuart Sierras talk on Components - this is beautiful stuff indeed ...)
12:12	prose	i used instaparse to make a language that has syntax like IO but compiles to CLojure and ClojureScript
12:12	prose	https://github.com/aaron-lebo/prose
15:57	m1dnight_	i just discovered clojure monads. Now I recall so many moments I thought "well, i wish I had monads now"
16:01	sorbo_	I was so mad when I found them for Go (https://github.com/SimonRichardson/wishful) and they weren't called gonads
16:02	kwladyka	Ok i read about Enlive, but i think it is not "keep it simple", but it is good separate frontend people from coders.... still not sure it is good
16:02	m1dnight_	hahaha :) They missed out there indeed, sorbo_
16:06	sveri	kwladyka: I'd use it for larger projects when generating a lot on the server side with some nifty html markup
16:21	TimMc	m1dnight_: A word of warning -- monads take away your ability to use tools.trace effectively.
16:21	TimMc	I just ran into that recently.
16:22	TimMc	Err... I guess just things like the error-state monad, come to think of it.
16:23	justin_smith	((juxt inc dec) sorbo_) ; for puns
16:23	justin_smith	amazingly that command works as expected, despite not being implemented
16:23	m1dnight_	:D :D :D
16:23	m1dnight_	TimMc: I actually have never used tools.trace.
16:23	sorbo_	w00t
16:24	m1dnight_	So many things I have to learn :<
16:24	m1dnight_	Im writing a thesis, I have a valid excuse!
16:28	xemdetia	m1dnight_, that only buys you so much time!
16:30	m1dnight_	deadline is in 2 weeks :(
16:30	m1dnight_	implementation is barely done and I have to write 2 chapters and find a good evaluation program
16:30	m1dnight_	and here i am trying to update cider in emacs for no good reason :p :p :p
16:30	justin_smith	(inc yaks)
16:30	lazybot	⇒ 1
16:34	amalloy	speaking of clojure monads, i see http://www.reddit.com/r/Clojure/comments/37bzut/how_can_i_make_this_functions_internals_more/ and i'm so tempted to say "gosh, you just want to use the `State DB` monad" but i know it is not helpful at all
17:11	irctc	,(apply and true true [true true true])
17:11	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/and"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/and, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyze "Compiler.java" 6543]}\n {:type java.lang.RuntimeException\n :message "Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure....
17:12	irctc	What's the standard way of getting around calling apply with a macro like 'and' ?
17:12	amalloy	&(doc every?)
17:12	lazybot	⇒ "([pred coll]); Returns true if (pred x) is logical true for every x in coll, else false."
17:17	irctc	amalloy: ,(every? identity [:asdf #{:a} 'clojure])
17:22	gfredericks	,(every? identity [:asdf #{:a} 'clojure])
17:22	clojurebot	true
17:22	gfredericks	it kind of annoys me that and can't be a function
17:24	eindoofus	hi, does clojure do type checking at compile time?
17:26	TimMc	gfredericks: should be an and* and or*
17:27	arohner	eindoofus: no. There's core.typed (optional static typing), but I'd recommend getting more familiar w/ the language first before using it
17:28	wasamasa	eindoofus: you usually get the errors once the compiled code is evaluated
17:29	eindoofus	arohner, if i'm trying to do some more dynamic style programming like python using the jvm what language would you recommend?
17:29	gfredericks	TimMc: I'm not entirely opposed to that
17:29	arohner	eindoofus: clojure :-)
17:29	eindoofus	i'm trying to find something flexible for to aid in the creation of dummy data
17:29	arohner	gfredericks: TimMc: how would they work? and & or promise not not eval arguments. clojure fns are strictly evaluated
17:30	TimMc	arohner: and* would have the same value semantics as and, but with no delayed eval
17:30	TimMc	(def and* #(and % %2))
17:31	TimMc	arohner: This would be nice for (reduce and* ...)
17:31	wasamasa	aren't there equivalents to some/any and all?
17:31	wasamasa	as known from scheme and common lisp
17:32	ionthas_	Is there any implementation of mapv with parallelism? (map has pmap). I couldn't find pmap...
17:32	eindoofus	arohner, what worries me is that clojure appears to be more of a functional language. i like the ease of dynamic languages
17:32	ionthas_	(I meant pmapv)
17:32	eindoofus	but still need the jvm
17:32	wasamasa	eindoofus: you're in #clojure, do you seriously expect anyone to advocate anything else
17:33	eindoofus	why not? we're all techies. would expect better answers here than #java
17:33	wasamasa	...
17:33	eindoofus	it's just another tool
17:33	wasamasa	especially considering that they've tasted the benefits, such as writing more concise and immutable code with less error potential
17:33	ronh-	eindoofus if you just want python for java you know where to find jython
17:35	gfredericks	eindoofus: clojure is both functional and dynamic
17:35	wasamasa	"dynamic" makes little sense as classification anyways
17:36	wasamasa	I'm pretty sure it's just been coined for marketing purposes (because who wouldn't want to sound "dynamic")
17:36	gfredericks	I interpret it to refer to being able to easily redefine things; basically everything vars are all about
17:36	wasamasa	so, not php :D
17:37	eindoofus	the only functional language i've seen is javascript and it's warped my mind. not sure what functional means anymore
17:37	wasamasa	trololol
17:38	eindoofus	there is definitely a large difference between java, python, and javascript i would say
17:38	wasamasa	that is about as meaningful of a statement as saying the same about lentils, potatoes and pasta
17:40	wasamasa	meh, why must programming language discussions be so boring
17:41	amalloy	TimMc: why would you want to encourage (reduce and* ...)?
17:41	gfredericks	amalloy: what's the alternative?
17:41	amalloy	every?. that's what it's for
17:42	gfredericks	well they aren't strictly the same
17:42	gfredericks	and in any case
17:42	amalloy	(partial every? identity) is (partial reduce and*), except that it's smart enough to short circuit
17:42	gfredericks	and* is probably useful in other contects too
17:42	gfredericks	contexts
17:42	amalloy	gfredericks: (map and*)? that's fair enough
17:42	gfredericks	yeah that kind of thing
17:42	gfredericks	gotta grep a bunch of codebases for #(and %1 %2) to find examples
17:43	gfredericks	I agree the reduce example is bad for its long-circuiting
17:43	amalloy	i can get behind that, but when people encourage (reduce and*) in a non-lazy language i have to disagree
17:43	functor	This is pretty hard to search, but is there an "and" in clojure that is not a macro? or is the only option to wrap it in a lambda?
17:43	gfredericks	oh here's an example right here
17:43	gfredericks	functor: what are you going to use it for?
17:44	functor	Since the ESP is on today, exactly what amalloy is showing: (reduce and [true true true...])
17:45	arohner	gfredericks: I like the term long-circuiting :-)
17:45	functor	and* doesn't seem to exist.. where can i grab it from?
17:46	amalloy	functor: the point of the discussion we were just having before you asked that question is that (reduce and* xs) is a terrible thing to do
17:46	amalloy	because the function every? exists, and is much better for that
17:47	functor	Well then. :/
17:47	functor	so.. every? then?
17:47	gfredericks	functor: better because reduce wouldn't short-ciruit
17:47	gfredericks	,(every? identity (repeat nil))
17:47	clojurebot	false
17:48	gfredericks	,(reduce #(and %1 %2) (repeat nil))
17:48	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
17:48	functor	Ah! identity, that's what I was missing.
17:48	wasamasa	nice
17:48	lvh	Is there a merge-with where the fn takes both k and v, or do I do (into (empty m) (map f m))?
17:48	functor	amalloy, gfredericks thank you
17:48	lvh	err, I guess that doesn't really do it either; I mean reduce ;)
17:49	wasamasa	functor: identity is overall pretty useful if you wish to preserve the argument as is
17:50	TimMc	amalloy: Yeah, I think map is the case I was thinking of.
17:51	functor	wasamasa: yea, old me couldn't find a use for it, functional me is starting to get it though :)
17:58	TimMc	amalloy: No, that's not right. (every? identity ...) doesn't yield the final value, it yields true.
17:58	justin_smith	,(every? identity [:a :b :c])
17:58	clojurebot	true
17:58	amalloy	that's fine, TimMc. nobody who wants to reduce and over a list cares about the exact value, just its truthiness
17:59	TimMc	If you say so.
18:01	TimMc	I'm not willing to make that generalization.
18:02	bensu	when using clojure.java.shell should I be able to access environment variables?
18:02	justin_smith	bensu: the ones your jvm started with at least
18:03	justin_smith	bensu: try running "env"
18:04	bensu	justin_smith, I tried printenv and nothing happened. I'm running this through lein
18:04	justin_smith	(sh/sh "env") => :exit 0, :out "TERM_PROGRAM=iTerm.app\nTERM=xterm-256color\nSHELL=/bin/bash\nT..."}
18:04	justin_smith	missing a { in my pseudo-paste up there, but I definitely see results
18:05	justin_smith	oh, env is an actual program
18:05	justin_smith	printenv is a shell builtin, to run it you need to start a shell
18:05	justin_smith	despite the name, clojure.java.shell/sh does not spawn a shell unless the thing you ask it to run is a shell
18:05	bensu	justin_smith, thanks, I'll try env
18:06	justin_smith	oh wait... printenv works here too
18:06	justin_smith	so maybe you have some other issue
18:06	justin_smith	s/maybe//
18:07	TimMc	justin_smith: It only spawns a sh. :-)
18:09	danielcompton	cfleming: current status: trying to become the most unreasonably picky Cursive user - https://github.com/cursiveclojure/cursive/issues/904
18:10	justin_smith	TimMc: (println (:out (sh/sh "pstree"))) shows the pstree as a direct child of the jvm
18:10	justin_smith	no sh
18:10	bensu	justin_smith, thanks, printenv is also empty. It's probably something related to lein since I'm working on a plugin
18:11	justin_smith	fascinating
18:11	justin_smith	I assume you mean env is also empty
18:11	amalloy	bensu: what about (System/getenv)?
18:13	bensu	amalloy, that works!
18:13	amalloy	strange that that's populated but sh doesn't see any of it
18:14	justin_smith	could be that lein is frobbing the environment in a way that does not push it to child processes?
18:15	justin_smith	like it's explicitly setting the env, but not exporting?
18:16	justin_smith	bensu: there is an :env key to shell/sh you can use to explicitly export an environment
18:16	justin_smith	or create one!
18:17	TimMc	justin_smith: Sorry, bad joke.
18:17	justin_smith	oh, I didn't get it at all
18:18	bensu	justin_smith, I was trying to avoid managing the environment myself but I guess I have no choice.
18:18	bensu	amalloy, justin_smith thanks for the help. I'll continue tomorrow.
18:18	justin_smith	bensu: :env (System/getenv) as trailing args?
18:18	TimMc	(c.j.shell is in fact capable of spawning shells, but the var you're calling is sh, which is obviously a "partial shell" :-P)
18:18	justin_smith	ahh
18:19	justin_smith	my mix up is that /bin/sh exists, and a common NEWB mistake is to expect it to be bash
18:19	justin_smith	so the semantics of that joke went WHOOSH for me
18:21	amalloy	justin_smith: you have left me wondering what NEWB is an acronym for
18:21	justin_smith	hah
18:24	TimMc	Not Even Writing BASIC
18:26	crocket	Does clojure have devices that make it simple to write large codebases?
18:26	crocket	Haskell has rich typing system that makes it simple, and I heard clojure had other devices to make it simple.
18:29	amalloy	keyboards, monitors. pretty solid devices for writing large codebases
18:30	blkcat	a keyboard really is exceptionally helpful
18:30	crocket	I was talking about conceptual devices in clojure.
18:31	crocket	contrivances
18:32	xemdetia	it still is a poorly defined question, what hurt points do you have in your large codebases?
18:32	arohner	relevant xkcd: http://xkcd.com/378/
18:34	crocket	xemdetia, I wrote quite a few modules in node.js
18:34	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
18:34	crocket	Node.js doesn't help you organize code.
18:35	crocket	That's why I abandoned node.js
18:35	xemdetia	like.. how? do they not have namespaces? do you not like javascript anymore? do you like geese that fly in v's?
18:36	crocket	node.js doesn't have namespaces.
18:36	crocket	It has a workaround called require.
18:37	xemdetia	ok, clojure has namespaces. does that help your question?
18:37	crocket	I think there would be more.
18:42	bensu	crocket, watch this http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy
18:43	crocket	bensu, I did a while ago.
18:44	bensu	crocket, well, that is what Clojure has to offer in terms of making complex problems more tractable. Conceptual tools that help your code be modular and composable
18:49	zerokarmaleft	crocket: the component library is gaining a lot of traction in real-world, large codebases (for some definition of large), and there's plenty of blog posts and conf talks about it
18:50	zerokarmaleft	though you can get a lot done with just pure functions and clojure's reference types
18:51	danielcompton	crocket: Clojure often needs 3-10x less code than in other languages, so codebases don't get as large for equivalent functionality
19:30	boitumelophetla	whats up fellas
19:35	kmaru_p00ps	had a question re: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1147975/in-clojure-when-should-i-use-a-vector-over-a-list-and-the-other-way-around
19:35	kmaru_p00ps	a question Raynes had asked
19:36	kmaru_p00ps	I get the impression that lists should be used rarely
19:36	kmaru_p00ps	so, why is it that map, filter and reduce return lists
19:36	kmaru_p00ps	and not vectors?
19:37	weavejester	kmaru_p00ps: Seqs are fine for sequential data.
19:37	weavejester	They just don't provide random lookup.
19:38	weavejester	They can also be lazy
19:39	amalloy	kmaru_p00ps: they don't actually return lists, they return sequences that are printed the same as lists
19:39	kmaru_p00ps	you mean seqa can be lazy?
19:39	kmaru_p00ps	ok
19:40	kmaru_p00ps	oh..ok
19:40	kmaru_p00ps	weavejester: reading up on this now -http://stackoverflow.com/questions/22416387/differences-between-a-seq-and-a-list
19:42	weavejester	A list is a seq, but not all seqs are lists :)
19:42	kmaru_p00ps	amalloy and weavejester: so, why does clojure prefer seqs over list or vector?
19:43	amalloy	kmaru_p00ps: because you can't fit a list or a vector of every positive integer in memory at once
19:43	weavejester	They're lazy, and they're fast to construct
19:43	kmaru_p00ps	amalloy or weavejester: thanks..that explains things.
19:47	weavejester	Hm, yellerapp keep releasing libraries with single-segment namespaces.
20:01	amalloy	weavejester: it's hard to think of a way to split up yeller-clojure-client into multiple words. it's indivisible
20:03	weavejester	amalloy: Well, sure, but it's more that single-segment namespaces have edge-conditions associated with them, since they're compiled as packageless Java classes.
20:03	amalloy	weavejester: i can't tell if you've somehow missed the irony of my claim that their three-word phrase can't be split up into words
20:03	weavejester	amalloy: Oh! Hah! Yes, I did.
20:04	weavejester	amalloy: It's late here :)
20:05	gfredericks	com.yellerapp.whatever
20:43	sdegutis	Hi. I'm new to Clokire and Functional idioms. What is best practice for testing functions that use (shuffle) without side effects?
20:43	sdegutis	*Clojure
20:46	sdegutis	Any help is appreciated? Thanks?
20:47	amalloy	(let [xs (range 52), shuffled-xs (shuffle xs)] (assert (or (not= xs shuffled-xs) (= xs shuffled-xs)))) ;; rare edge case, but shuffling might leave the deck the same
21:47	cfleming	Do let blocks or do blocks in general propagate their tag metadata from the last (result) form?
21:48	cfleming	Threading forms do but that's because of how the macro is expanded.
21:49	cfleming	Actually, thinking it over my question isn't so much about the tag metadata itself as the compiler type inference, I guess.
21:49	amalloy	cfleming: they don't propagate the tag metadata itself, which is kinda a weird thing to do and probably not what you meant
21:49	amalloy	yes. the compiler does infer types through let/do
21:50	cfleming	amalloy: Thanks.
21:50	sdegutis	amalloy: sorry I mean I want to test that my function randomizes several properties
21:50	amalloy	you can sorta test it pretty easily, right? (set! warn-on-reflection true) (.length (let [x "test"] x))
21:50	sdegutis	should i generally just create a Function that does the thing with a given, and then a separate function that calls it with shuffle?
21:50	amalloy	cfleming: and indeed this does not cause a reflection warning
21:51	cfleming	amalloy: Yep, was just testing that exact case over here.
21:53	cfleming	Looks like try does not infer types
21:53	amalloy	cfleming: because there are multiple return branches
21:54	amalloy	(try 1 (catch Exception e :fail))
21:54	cfleming	amalloy: Yep, makes sense.
21:54	amalloy	maybe it could be smart enough to collapse them together if it can find a LCA for all the possible return paths
21:55	cfleming	amalloy: Interestingly if also seems to infer: (.length (if true "true" "false"))
21:55	cfleming	amalloy: Although only if the two branches are the same type: (.length (if true "true" 0)) warns
21:56	amalloy	and it doesn't do that if you return the same types from a try/catch?
21:56	cfleming	(.length (try "test" (finally "finally"))) warns
21:57	cfleming	(.length (try "test" (catch Exception w "finally"))) also warns
21:57	amalloy	sad
22:02	hiredman	try/catch/finally in an expression positions is hoisted at as a fn by the compilter
22:02	hiredman	compiler
22:03	amalloy	oh, right. hiredman: i never quite understood why that is. do you know?
22:04	hiredman	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1422 http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-701
22:04	hiredman	because it is way easier to hoist them out and treat the method/fn call as an expression then to treat the byte code for try/catch as an expression
22:05	hiredman	(same for loops)
22:08	crocket	Hell guys
22:08	cfleming	hiredman: That is what I call a tricky jira
22:09	matthavener	interesting, so that's why try/catch/finally doesn't play well with core.async ?
22:09	hiredman	the relationship between the two tickets?
22:09	cfleming	No, the loop problem in general
22:09	cfleming	That's pretty subtle
22:16	cfleming	How does the inference for recur work?
22:16	cfleming	I guess loop infers the type of its last expression, as with let
22:16	cfleming	But what is the type of refer inferred as?
22:16	cfleming	s/refer/recur/
22:19	hiredman	it infers as a custom type, and the inferrence logic for if has a special case to pick the type of the other branch of the if one branch is that recur type
22:21	cfleming	hiredman: So (loop [i 0] (if (< i n) (recur (inc i)) i)) will infer long, because the other if branch has type long?
22:22	cfleming	hiredman: It's a degenerate case, but what about (loop [i 0] (recur (inc i)))? Does that infer nil because the recur doesn't appear inside an if?
22:23	hiredman	cfleming: it doesn't really matter
22:23	hiredman	the loop is infinite, so there is no return value, so what the compiler inferes doesn't matter
22:25	cfleming	hiredman: Fair enough. So recur searches for its nearest enclosing if and then picks the type of the other branch?
22:25	hiredman	well, recur doesn't
22:25	cfleming	Right, the compiler does
22:25	hiredman	recur reports its return type as a special marker type
22:26	hiredman	if expressions, when asked for their type, do some logic examining the types of the branches, which special case that marker type
22:27	cfleming	Ok, that makes sense. Thanks, that's really interesting.
22:29	hiredman	it would be interesting to see the compiler do HM/algorithm-w inference, just to contrast with "Rich's Algorithm"
22:30	hiredman	doubly interesting because hm is generally applied to inference and checking, but clojure only case about inference
22:31	hiredman	I think Bronsa had some patches for clj-701 in his cinc work
22:41	cfleming	Yeah, Clojure's algorithm is really only type propagation
22:54	sdegutis	I have come up with this plan:
22:55	sdegutis	Write a function that returns a list of things and the shuffle function. Then write another function which calls that function and performs the given function on the list it also gives back.
22:55	sdegutis	I can test this with the principle of indirection.
22:56	sdegutis	I can test that A returns [shuffle, [1,2,3]], and that (B x y) just returns (apply x y).
22:57	sdegutis	This gives me indirect assurance that the list is going to be shuffled. Right?
22:58	ddellacosta	feeling a bit dense here--using Prismatic's schema, how does one go about creating a schema using a predicate function? That is, I simply want to validate an argument to a function by whether or not it satisfies a predicate. I thought I could use s/conditional but that seems to require a schema or schemas itself.
22:59	ddellacosta	er, and to answer the question myself, looks like I can use schema.core/pred. Nevermind.
23:13	gfredericks	sdegutis: is using clojure.core/shuffle one of your requirements? like you couldn't switch to a more functional shuffle function?
23:19	andyf	sdegutis: I'm being dense here. You have a function "uses-shuffle" that internally uses clojure.core/shuffle in its implementation, in a way that affects its return value, and you want to know a good way to write unit tests of uses-shuffle?
23:20	andyf	Where I am using 'function' there not in the pure function sense.
23:24	andyf	gfredericks: You should have that cough looked at. May need professional help
23:27	gfredericks	andyf: I'll make a jira ticket to remind myself
23:28	andyf	Steps to reproduce could get disgusting
23:30	sdegutis	gfredericks: not a hard requirement
23:30	sdegutis	andyf: I just want to verify that a function is shuffling things it gives me back
23:31	andyf	sdegutis: Could you call it twice, and check that the return sequences contain the same set of values?
23:32	sdegutis	andyf: It actually has several levels of complexity in this functino. Even if the top level is shuffled, there's no way of determining their equality at all.
23:33	andyf	or sort the 2 sequences and check they are equal (same thing, more specific method)
23:34	andyf	Certainly it would get more challenging if it is more complex than simply shuffling an argument, or shuffling once just before returning.
23:34	andyf	Making intermediate computed values observable in the test harness, and checking those intermediate values, could make it easier. That may simply be another way of saying what you were suggesting earlier.