#clojure – 2015-02-05

2015-02-05

00:11	tomjack	interestingly metadata does not survive apply for vectors
00:11	tomjack	generally, for proper seqables which don't copy their metadata
00:12	tomjack	(fn [& args] (meta args)) is a user error I suppose
00:15	amalloy	tomjack: well, that's because vectors are never actually the arglists
00:15	amalloy	rather, the arglist is (seq v), not v
00:15	amalloy	i simplified a little for Lewix
00:19	tomjack	I thought I understood metadata, but I was wrong
00:20	amalloy	i mean, metadata lives on values, and if you construct a new version of the same value by modifying it a bit, eg via conj, you get the same metadata
00:20	amalloy	if you construct a totally distinct object, eg via seq, you don't
00:21	tomjack	I understand what happens; I want to understand what it means
00:21	amalloy	well, i thought i was explaining that
00:22	tomjack	"same value" is reminiscent of "same electron"
00:22	tomjack	you don't mean same as in =, right?
00:22	justin_smith	tomjack: same Object
00:22	justin_smith	not value, but identity
00:22	amalloy	well, the metadata is the same as in identity
00:23	amalloy	i was talking about getting a new version of a value, which of course leaves you something which is not "same"
00:23	julianleviston	Lewix: a vector isn’t a seq, is it?
00:23	tomjack	I don't think you mean the same thing by "a value" as I do
00:24	justin_smith	tomjack: what is a value?
00:24	julianleviston	justin_smith: is it the content of something?
00:24	tomjack	or rather, when I say "what it means", I'm thinking in a context where, inside (let [x [1 2 3] y [1 2 3]] ...), x and y refer to the same value (regardless of any compiler tricks)
00:25	justin_smith	tomjack: right, that's the same value
00:25	justin_smith	different identities
00:25	tomjack	but I find that my variables actually seem to refer to a pair of a value and an identity
00:25	julianleviston	tomaw: do you mean memory location?
00:25	justin_smith	tomjack: vars have identities, you can get at it via resolve, (var x), #'x etc.
00:25	tomjack	s/identity/non-value/, I dunno what really
00:25	justin_smith	tomjack: metadata does not go with values, it goes with identities
00:26	tomjack	right
00:26	julianleviston	tomjack: this is going to get very existential. :)
00:26	justin_smith	julianleviston: there's a good hickey talk, I forget which one, about values state and identity that makes all this stuff very clear, he even references Whitehead
00:27	julianleviston	justin_smith: yeah, I’ve seen it a couple times. I love it :) Whitehead rocks… if not a little self-confusing at times.
00:27	julianleviston	justin_smith: I think it was actually the first exposure I had to clojure.
00:27	tomjack	so when working with values, I expect that, given I am careful in my code, I can put on "metadata-blocking glasses" and see a version of my code where the identities become irrelevant for understanding the meaning of the code
00:28	julianleviston	tomjack: I guess that depends if your code deals with meta-data or not!
00:28	tomjack	it's ok if the code deals with metadata
00:28	tomjack	in certain ways
00:28	justin_smith	tomjack: sure, metadata is used as an implementation detail that you can usually ignore
00:28	tomjack	e.g. consider (defn identity' [x] (vary-meta x update :counter (fnil inc 0)))
00:29	tomjack	I can put on metadata-blocking glasses, and then (= identity identity') as far as I'm concerned
00:29	justin_smith	tomjack: it wouldn't work on java Objects, or primitives
00:29	justin_smith	while identity does
00:29	tomjack	ah, yes, it's a restricted identity
00:29	tomjack	to IObj
00:29	justin_smith	right
00:30	tomjack	ok, I guess I do understand metadata
00:38	tomjack	not really though. I guess some fns should be able to get tickets which permit them to inspect certain metadata (and to use the result of the inspection in the return value, not just in the return metadata). e.g. eval needs to be able to case on :macro
00:40	justin_smith	tomjack: it does that by looking up the var
00:40	justin_smith	tomjack: eval doesn't get the var as an arg, it gets a symbol, it uses that to find the var, and uses that to find the metadata
00:41	tomjack	yes, but if I had metadata-blocking glasses, putting them on would break macroexpansion
00:41	tomjack	well, no, though. because vars aren't values
00:43	tomjack	I'll just wait until after I macroexpanded to put the glasses on :)
00:51	tomjack	(fn constantly' [x y] (with-meta x (merge (meta x) (-> y meta meta))))
02:20	sobel	can someone help me understand what the idiomatic way to solve a little programming problem is with clojure? i have a simple row-data transformation to make
02:21	Empperi	shoot
02:22	sobel	nutshell: reading csv, i need to capture some header data and distribute it to body rows. target is more csv, eventually on disk
02:23	Empperi	first https://github.com/clojure/data.csv
02:23	sobel	i got as far as that library and it seems to read ok
02:24	Empperi	then I'd need a bit more information about "capturing header data and distributing it to body rows"
02:24	Empperi	what do you mean with that?
02:24	Empperi	take the first row then copy-paste that data to rows after that?
02:24	sobel	denormalizing
02:24	sobel	yes
02:25	Empperi	ok, so you have something like:
02:25	Empperi	foo;bar
02:25	Empperi	blergh;blorgh
02:25	Empperi	and you want:
02:25	Empperi	foo;bar;blergh;blorgh
02:25	Empperi	?
02:25	sobel	pretty much. the rows containing the foo;bar are identified by the content of the 1st element
02:26	Empperi	ok, wait a sec then
02:27	sobel	there will be >1 blergh;blorgh (body rows)
02:27	ibash	Blergh
02:32	Empperi	sobel: https://www.refheap.com/b8917f48546768a06cf6b0dcf
02:32	Empperi	should get you started
02:33	Empperi	definetly not what you need exactly
02:34	sobel	i can mung my way through the code if i have a decent design target. so, the header row will come after a row with a start token. so there's a couple state transitions there.
02:37	vas	Hi, is it possible to reload changed html without restarting my lein server?
02:41	julianleviston	vas: I thought that was the default?
02:45	julianleviston	vas: Assuming you have :reload true set, or whatever that option is...
02:47	vas	most files definitely follow that behavior, but my html files are not being reloaded. perhaps firefox is the culprit...
03:23	devll	How to get the port of REPL?
03:25	ggherdov	devll: probably not the answer you expect, but: `netstat -tulpn \| grep java` on my ubuntu machine
03:26	ggherdov	(in your shell, not in the REPL)
03:26	ggherdov	don't know how to make clojure tell you that
03:30	devll	I know this command.
03:30	devll	I have many Java threads
03:31	noidi	devll, lein repl creates a file called .nrepl-port
03:31	devll	noidi: thx
03:34	devll	noidi: which dir ?
03:35	devll	I cant find it from current dir.
03:36	devll	my bad. C
03:36	devll	I found it.
03:37	ggherdov	Hello. I need a function (update-or-insert map key val func default) which takes a map, a key-val pair, a function.
03:37	ggherdov	If key is already in map, gives a new map where key is mapped to (func (key map) val). If key not present, gives a map where key is mapped to (func default val).
03:37	ggherdov	Example: values are numbers. If key present, sum w/ new value. If not, insert value (default is 0).
03:37	ggherdov	Does it exist already?
03:39	julianleviston	ggherdov: update-in? I’m not sure
03:39	ggherdov	julianleviston: uhm, that one overwrite if key's already there.
03:39	ggherdov	basically is a mix of the behaviours of update-in and assoc.
03:40	noidi	,(merge-with + {:a 2} {:a 1, :b 2})
03:40	clojurebot	{:b 2, :a 3}
03:40	ggherdov	noidi: very many thanks
03:44	julianleviston	ggherdov: haha I’m sorry I had no idea what you meant from your description. My deficiency, I’m sure.
03:44	julianleviston	(inc noidi)
03:44	lazybot	⇒ 1
03:45	hyPiRion	ggherdov: usually you can combine update-in and fnil
03:45	julianleviston	ggherdov: I don’t see how that fits your “defaults” requirement, tho
03:46	julianleviston	ggherdov: but like I said, I don’t understand the problem, really.
03:46	hyPiRion	,(map #(update-in [:a] % (fnil + 10) 1) [{:a 1} {}])
03:46	clojurebot	#<UnsupportedOperationException java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: PersistentArrayMap>
03:47	hyPiRion	,(map #(update-in % [:a] (fnil + 10) 1) [{:a 1} {}])
03:47	clojurebot	({:a 2} {:a 11})
03:47	hyPiRion	ggherdov: key is :a, 10 is default, func is +, val is 1
03:47	hyPiRion	that is your goal?
03:48	julianleviston	hyPiRion: if you only have one key, you don’t need to wrap it in a vec, I don’t think.
03:49	hyPiRion	julianleviston: you can use update if you're running 1.7, but it's still in alpha
03:49	hyPiRion	,[(update {:a []} conj 1) clojure-version]
03:49	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
03:50	julianleviston	hyPiRion: no, update-in…
03:50	hyPiRion	oh dear, I need my morning coffee
03:50	hyPiRion	julianleviston: that doesn't work
03:50	hyPiRion	,[(update {:a []} :a conj 1) clojure-version]
03:50	clojurebot	[{:a [1]} {:interim true, :major 1, :minor 7, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}]
03:51	julianleviston	hyPiRion: right you are… I read the doc wrong.
03:51	julianleviston	hyPiRion: SO MANY MISTAKES! Julian… lurk more!
03:54	ggherdov	hyPiRion: thanks for the hint about fnil. Yes that's it
03:55	hyPiRion	hurray!
03:55	julianleviston	(inc hyPiRion)
03:55	lazybot	⇒ 66
03:56	ggherdov	lol for inc-ing users :) I think ##java has something like that too
03:56	ggherdov	(the channel)
03:56	hyPiRion	yeah, many have some sort of bot
03:56	ggherdov	then ...
03:56	ggherdov	(inc noidi)
03:56	lazybot	⇒ 2
03:57	ggherdov	what's right is right
04:09	zacts	hum I need to improve my clojure style
04:10	zacts	I find myself using map / reduce / filter like I did regexes in Perl
04:10	zacts	I don't think I use them for what they are supposed to be used for
04:11	zacts	although it seems it's better to use higher order functions than a recursive equivalent
04:11	zacts	(loop recur) in this case
04:12	zacts	I need to unlearn perl for clojure, oh well. It'll happen eventually. lol
04:13	hyPiRion	zacts: Stuff like that happens with experience. I'd suggest not to stress it :)
04:14	zacts	heh, yeah
04:22	kir	Greetings all. Trying to understand Clojure namespace; thought I understood it, until I replaced (ns kir.funcs) with (in-ns 'kir.funcs) in a lib - resulting in an error....
04:23	kir	"Unable to resolve symbol: defn in this context, compiling:(kir/funcs.clj:7:1)[...]"
04:24	kir	I was under the impression the (in-ns) would create a namespace for the lib, just as (ns) did?
04:25	kir	Btw, I'm including the lib with : (use 'kir.funcs)
04:26	michaelr`	cursive users here?
04:26	michaelr`	or the cursive developer? ;)
04:27	hyPiRion	kir: No, in-ns makes the barebones of a namespace only
04:28	hyPiRion	You would at least have to do something like (clojure.core/refer 'clojure.core) to get core functions, and probably some more if you want to be on the safe side
04:28	hyPiRion	My suggestion is to just use ns :p
04:29	julianleviston	michaelr`: I’ve been using it since yesterday a little...
04:29	kir	hyPiRion, thanks for the tip, going to test...
04:29	michaelr`	julianleviston: :)
04:30	cfleming	michaelr`: What's up?
04:30	julianleviston	michaelr`: can I help?
04:30	jinagarano	i'm trying to set up a postgresql db for use with clojure. i'm running windows 7, installed postgresql, added the dependencies to project.clj. when i'm trying to create a table, i get an error "org.postgresql.util.PSQLException: Connection refused." hostname, port and user/password are correct. what could be the problem?
04:30	julianleviston	michaelr`: ooh even better… the main man of all things running writing :)
04:30	michaelr`	configure identation parameters, it's not always working
04:30	michaelr`	cfleming: sometimes it does.. but a lot of times it doesn't
04:31	michaelr`	is there already an issue open on this or I'm doing something wrong?
04:31	julianleviston	jinagarano: stupid question, but is it on?
04:31	julianleviston	jinagarano: that happens to me often.
04:31	jinagarano	how do i turn it on? no stupid questino there :)
04:32	cfleming	michaelr`: What are you doing to adjust the parameter?
04:32	kir	hyPiRion, that worked. Previously I had tried (refer 'clojure.core) to resolve it. I can see my error now. Thank you :)
04:32	julianleviston	jinagarano: sadly I don’t know on win… on the mac, I open it. You can set it up to always run, but I haven’t done that… and I’m not sure that it’s the default, depending on your installation.
04:32	michaelr`	cfleming: Alt-Enter on defonce, for example and then select 2 from the dropdown menu.
04:33	cfleming	michaelr`: Ok, and that doesn't work?
04:33	jinagarano	julianleviston: well, i can find that out. thanks!
04:34	hyPiRion	kir: np :) If you want to know more about how the ns macro works, you can try (require '[clojure.walk :refer [macroexpand-all]]) and do (macroexpand-all '(ns foo)). You could also attempt to read the source, but that's not always as easy
04:34	michaelr`	cfleming:
04:34	michaelr`	https://www.refheap.com/31ab32048689327cabf9d10bb
04:34	michaelr`	nope, here is an example ^^
04:35	hyPiRion	I find macroexpanding to be helpful when I don't know what happens behind the scenes
04:35	cfleming	michaelr`: That's correct for a setting of 2, if you want the next line indented, you want to set it to 1, or even better to Only Indent
04:35	cfleming	michaelr`: I need to put some text on the website explaining that parameter
04:36	michaelr`	indeed 1 worked :)
04:36	michaelr`	I though it was about the number of tabs/characters to indent
04:36	cfleming	michaelr`: Here's how this works - this is designed for macro forms. They generally have a number of parameters, and then a body.
04:36	michaelr`	oh cool, i get it
04:37	michaelr`	this is the number of params
04:37	cfleming	michaelr`: That number is the number of elements after the head symbol that Cursive will assume are parameters
04:37	cfleming	michaelr`: Right.
04:37	michaelr`	great
04:37	michaelr`	wish I knew that earlier
04:37	michaelr`	;)
04:37	cfleming	michaelr`: The parameters get lined up, and the rest of the elements are assumed to be the body and are indented by 2
04:37	kir	hyPiRion, cheers, I was actually wondering how macro expansion works.
04:37	michaelr`	ok
04:38	cfleming	michaelr`: Yeah, my doc requires a little inventiveness, sadly
04:38	michaelr`	btw, thanks for Cursive
04:38	michaelr`	Especially the wonderfull debugger
04:38	michaelr`	it's a life saver
04:38	cfleming	michaelr`: If you set it to only indent, then everything after the head symbol will be just indented by 2 spaces - this is good for defn-like things
04:38	cfleming	michaelr`: No worries, I'm glad it's working for you!
04:38	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
04:39	cfleming	michaelr`: More bugfixes in the next drop, expression eval should be more reliable
04:39	michaelr`	the debugger really improved in the last version
04:40	cfleming	michaelr`: Yeah, I totally broke it in the previous one, and while I was fixing that I fixed a lot of other things.
04:40	cfleming	michaelr`: I use the debugger all the time, I wish I'd done that a year ago, it only took two days ;)
04:40	michaelr`	heh
04:41	michaelr`	hmm
04:41	cfleming	michaelr`: Now that expression eval works, it's a small step to a debug REPL when you're stopped at breakpoints
04:42	michaelr`	used it yesterday, it actually works :)
04:42	cfleming	The eval?
04:42	michaelr`	yes
04:42	cfleming	Yeah
04:42	michaelr`	Alt-F8
04:42	cfleming	I can't believe I lived without it for so long, or at least with a seriously broken version
04:44	cfleming	IntelliJ 14 has some really nice debugger enhancements in Java, I have to see how many of them I can make work
04:44	michaelr`	Is there an option somehow to set up a shortcat to eval (user/reset)?
04:44	michaelr`	shortcut
04:44	julianleviston	cfleming: is there a good video walkthrough on cursive?
04:44	cfleming	michaelr`: Unfortunately no, see https://github.com/cursiveclojure/cursive/issues/85
04:44	cfleming	julianleviston: Sadly there isn't even a bad one
04:45	cfleming	julianleviston: It's somewhere on my to-do list
04:46	julianleviston	cfleming: delegate! :)
04:46	cfleming	julianleviston: Hehe. There are a couple that help with getting it set up, but they don't go into great depth.
04:47	julianleviston	cfleming: I watched an install video the other day… can’t remember where it was but apparently there was a second video but I can’t remember where it was
04:47	michaelr`	cfleming: good to know that other people experience the same pains and needs as I do..
04:47	julianleviston	cfleming: ah yes.
04:47	michaelr`	cfleming: +1 mouseless jump to repl
04:47	julianleviston	jony epsilon…
04:47	julianleviston	http://vimeo.com/103808402
04:48	cfleming	michaelr`: Yeah, I think I'm pushing 300 open issues these days. Whatever your heart desires is probably in there somewhere.
04:48	cfleming	julianleviston: Yeah, Timothy Baldridge has one too
04:48	julianleviston	cfleming: is it all self?
04:48	julianleviston	cfleming: are you going to do all of this stuff yourself?
04:48	cfleming	julianleviston: Well, mostly.
04:49	cfleming	julianleviston: I'm working on an extension API, in the short term that will be for adding symbol resolution for 3rd party libs
04:49	julianleviston	cfleming: I don’t want to be rude about jony but it’d be nice if he edited his videos a bit… and I find his audio could do with some compression
04:49	cfleming	julianleviston: In the long run people will be able to add more complex functionality, but developing a good API takes time
04:50	cfleming	julianleviston: Try Timothy's and see if it works better for you
04:50	julianleviston	cfleming: it’s purchase?
04:50	cfleming	julianleviston: There's one free and one non-free on CLJS
04:51	cfleming	I have 305 open issues. Fortunately I have 421 closed issues, so I'm still winning.
04:52	julianleviston	cfleming: god I wish I would hurry up and finish the project I’m working on so I could start on my the pedagogical project I really want to do.
04:53	kir	michaelr`, " cfleming: +1 mouseless jump to repl" - only possible, through custom keymap
04:53	kir	already*
04:58	michaelr`	kir: please share :)
05:00	julianleviston	cfleming: I really wish that the REPL was even more tightly integrated with the IDE…
05:00	julianleviston	cfleming: generally, not specifically to cursive.
05:01	julianleviston	cfleming: I want the forms I’m editing to be the live forms in the “REPL”.
05:01	kir	michaelr`: Settings -> Keymap -> In the keymap list there is "Other" -> in that list there is "REPL" - I've set mine to alt+0
05:02	kir	michaelr`, press esc when you're in the REPL to get back to your code
05:04	TEttinger	(inc kir)
05:04	lazybot	⇒ 1
05:07	cfleming	julianleviston: You mean like a LightTable style instarepl?
05:12	julianleviston	cfleming: Sort of. LT still has a separate process than the source. I mean that the “source” is the live data structures. So if you have a (def x 5) and you change that 5 to 10, it does a reload… to do this, you’d have to mod clojure quite a bit, I imagine… stuart sierra was barking up this tree a bit with his component workflow… I’d like my “source” to be actual live data within a VM… and for it to
05:12	julianleviston	able to describe itself rather than the opposite 2 - step process which is REPL driven development.
05:14	julianleviston	cfleming: so… editing that 5 to a 10 is changing the value in memory first… and only then serialising it to display and/or text for the source… if that makes sense. It’s really not possible at the moment, AFAIK… but we could get there… and it’d be… amazing. Because then you really could use the full power of LISP on the data structures that comprise the program, if that makes sense...
05:15	cfleming	julianleviston: Sure - I'm not sure what the practical difference of that is from modifying the text and have it update though
05:16	julianleviston	cfleming: when your “source” isn’t text, interesting things can happen (as I’m pretty sure you know). A lot of errors would be impossible… like creating an invalid data structure, or a syntax error...
05:17	julianleviston	cfleming: You’d effectively get live linting for free.
05:18	julianleviston	cfleming: and a whole raft of different kinds of editors would be pretty trivial… like the gorilla REPL… because you could simply plug functions into your editor, right? :-) it’s all just functions.
05:18	julianleviston	cfleming: I think macros break things, tho… because they’re inherently tied to reading… perhaps. Anyway, it’s just an interesting idea, really :-)
05:19	cfleming	The problem is that you still have to represent your program somehow, probably as something similar to the text we use now. And it's still a two step process since that doesn't get evaluated directly, it gets compiled.
05:21	julianleviston	cfleming: yep. It depends how you view your source of truth. Smalltalk VMs are an interesting example… file in / file out… of pure true data structures that can’t be “broken”.
05:21	julianleviston	cfleming: I think shifting as much of our “stuff” (as programmers) into data as possible is the best idea… given that that’s where flexibility lies.
05:22	julianleviston	cfleming: but yeah, good points, as always.
05:25	cfleming	julianleviston: I definitely think it's good to think about these things, but I struggle to see a useful path to actually making a real editing environment out of them. I haven't looked closely at Eve, I should take another look at it.
05:25	julianleviston	cfleming: I guess we’ll see what chris granger’s next project eventuates as ;-)
05:25	julianleviston	cfleming: oh yeah, that’s what it’s called? Last time I looked it was called aurora… does it have a way one can look at it now?
05:25	julianleviston	cfleming: last time I looked (preview video) it had gone too far, IMHO…
05:26	julianleviston	a lot of times when people try to simplify, they go a bit too far.
05:26	julianleviston	“Lovely, but limited” springs to mind.
05:26	cfleming	I think the language is Aurora and the environment is Eve?
05:26	cfleming	Not sure.
05:27	michaelr`	kir: i mean, I have the repl tool window mapped to Alt-6 and there is
05:27	michaelr`	F12 but often it wouldn't go to the command prompt. another thing
05:27	michaelr`	is that I would often like to switch to the console in the repl in
05:27	michaelr`	order to examine a long exception
05:27	michaelr`	sorry, was disconnected
05:29	cfleming	michaelr`: Yeah, the solution is basically what kir said right now. Alt-num to go to REPL, and esc to go back
05:32	kir	cfleming: Btw, I really appreciate the multi-line-input REPL; thanks.
05:32	cfleming	kir: No worries, glad you're liking it. I use that a lot too.
05:34	julianleviston	cfleming: this is the only thing I’ve seen of aurora: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6iUm_Cqx2s
05:34	cfleming	julianleviston: Yeah, me too
05:34	julianleviston	cfleming: I had an almost visceral reaction to the tonal quality of his voice.
05:36	cfleming	julianleviston: More than that, I just wasn't very excited by the video
05:36	cfleming	I guess sooner or later someone will reinvent programming, but I haven't seen anything that shouts that to me yet.
05:38	julianleviston	cfleming: yeah, it just seemed like another mathematica to me… and it seemed to not be building on the past, but kind of clearing it out… which made me a bit sad… the main thing I dislike, though, is that the system can’t be modified from within itself, or applied to itself… it’s not homoiconic… not that most interfaces are, but I expect that…
05:38	julianleviston	cfleming: I feel that frank (VPRI) or even seaside are more advanced.
05:39	julianleviston	but hey, what have I done latel? :-) they’re doing good work.
05:39	julianleviston	latel*
05:39	julianleviston	lately* (sigh)
05:39	julianleviston	cfleming: as are you! :) <3
05:40	TEttinger	you've made typos lately :D
05:40	julianleviston	TEttinger: boy have I! :)
05:40	cfleming	Absolutely, kudos to them for trying. I'm interested to see more of what they come up with. I'd just like to feel more optimistic about it.
05:41	TEttinger	it's interesting how a number of questions have popped up in ##fsharp about clojuresque usage of the language (code as data and calling things by string name), which seems very difficult in such a strictly typed language
05:42	julianleviston	cfleming: if they can get simple while keeping advanced capability (or some way of traversing them) then it’ll be cool… that’s (interestingly) what my primary interest is.
05:52	julianleviston	Is a vec of 3 elemet vecs the best way to represent a tuple?
05:53	julianleviston	Acutally nevermind. It’s small. I’ll just use that.
05:53	Glenjamin	it is the simplest
05:53	julianleviston	Glenjamin: I really meant a collection with three elements. If it were large, I’d use a vec of records, yeah?
05:54	Glenjamin	large number of elements, or large number of items?
05:55	Glenjamin	actually, i don't really know the answer either way
05:55	julianleviston	Glenjamin: elements… all good. Depends what the criteria are. HeHe :)
05:55	Glenjamin	i know there's an optimised tuple implementation available if you need high perf short-tuples
05:55	julianleviston	Glenjamin: thanks, I’ll keep that in the back of my mind.
06:16	luxbock	what is the etiquette for using someone elses work in your own library? I'm building a REPL util library for myself, and I'd like to use print.foo but do some changes that might not jive with the author, though I haven't asked yet
06:16	luxbock	I'd obviously give attribution to the author, but is there something beyond that I should do if I'm just going to rip a huge part of someone elses useful library and do some tiny tweaks?
06:18	julianleviston	luxbock: you’d probably be best advised to ask him. Different folks have different ideas of what’s reasonable.
06:18	julianleviston	(or her)
06:18	luxbock	alright, I'll ask him how he'd feel about the changes I'd like to make
06:18	Glenjamin	if all else fails, you'll want to follow the license terms
06:19	luxbock	yeah, it's MIT license
06:21	TEttinger	MIT doesn't even require attribution IIRC
06:21	TEttinger	you can't change the license on the MIT-licensed files, but that's about it
06:22	luxbock	yeah I know the license allows me to do what I want, but I was more curious about the etiquette :)
06:22	TEttinger	tell him, thank him, change your fork at will?
06:22	luxbock	yep I'll do that, thanks
07:58	justin_smith	TEttinger3: rubyists giving f# a go? (regarding using code as data)
08:15	NhanH	Is there anyway you can format ring stacktrace with lein plugin like ultra ? (Ie when I'm running as `lein ring server-headless` and error popup, it formatted nicely)
08:15	justin_smith	NhanH: you could replace the wrap-stacktrace middleware
08:17	NhanH	do you mind elaborate a bit? (I have no idea how lein plugin work), so basically, I need to replace the wrap-stacktrace middleware without whatever the plugin is using to format the s tacktrace, right?
08:17	justin_smith	it's not a lein plugin
08:17	justin_smith	but yeah
08:18	NhanH	what is not a lein plugin? Middleware?
08:18	justin_smith	right
08:18	justin_smith	lein is for build time
08:18	NhanH	yeah I know
08:18	justin_smith	a lein plugin could only help with errors during dep resolution / startup
08:18	justin_smith	it can't help you at runtime
08:19	NhanH	okay thanks. So I guess the follow up question would be: is there any middleware to format ring stacktrace?
08:20	justin_smith	like I said, wrap-stacktrace does that, and if you don't like its formatting, you could make your own based on what ultra does
08:20	justin_smith	https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/master/ring-devel/src/ring/middleware/stacktrace.clj
08:22	justin_smith	NhanH: this is what wrap-stacktrace does: http://i.imgur.com/67oFIEf.png
08:23	NhanH	I tried that earlier, and I think that's the default behaviour of ring even if you don't put the middleware in. But yeah, that stacktrace is still a bit annoying
08:23	NhanH	Thanks anyway
08:24	justin_smith	NhanH: ok, so we have the other option, making some other handler based on wrap-stacktrace, with behavior more like ultra
08:26	NhanH	seems like time to read ultra source! :-)
09:46	vas	is there an idiomatic way to serve a favicon with compojure or ring?
09:46	justin_smith	vas: typically I use a middleware that special cases "favicon.ico" no matter what the leading path is
09:48	vas	justin_smith: coo. thanks for your <input>
09:48	vas	=]
09:51	vas	i'm not really sure what the favicon request even looks like to write code to handle it in my barebones routing..
09:51	justin_smith	vas: https://www.refheap.com/96939
09:52	justin_smith	it's a bit convoluted (those abstractions make sense with my other custom middlewares) but it works
09:53	justin_smith	refer-favicon is a middleware that can be used in the same way you use any other ring middleware
10:02	justin_smith	vas: just updated that paste with a simpler version at the bottom https://www.refheap.com/96939 that doesn't rely on the other defs
10:13	thesaskwatch	Hi .. anyone knows how to disable emacs prompt asking about file save before evaluating file via cmd+c cmkd+k ?
10:13	the_frey	M-x customise might present an option to disable it?
10:16	thesaskwatch	the_frey: clever ;)
10:19	ordnungswidrig	thesaskwatch: you can defun a function that calls save-buffer and cider-eval-buffer
11:05	acron^	hey all
11:05	acron^	I'm having trouble reading from a file
11:05	acron^	https://www.refheap.com/96945
11:05	acron^	I only want to read the first 5 lines
11:05	acron^	but I keep getting Caused by: java.io.IOException: Stream closed
11:06	acron^	Exception in thread "main" java.io.IOException: Stream closed
11:06	acron^	if I only inspect the first line, it work fine ...
11:06	justin_smith	acron^: map is lazy, you need to force the results you use before leaving the "with-open" context
11:06	julianleviston	acron^: is LF what you think it is?
11:06	ordnungswidrig	acron^: I guess that line-seq is lazy. Until you try to evaluate the whole seq the reader is closed
11:06	julianleviston	justin_smith: ah… cool :)
11:07	justin_smith	acron^: what happens is that by the time the map tries to do its thing, you are outside the with-open block
11:07	ordnungswidrig	acron^: (doall lines) might help
11:07	justin_smith	acron^: use (doall (take 5 (map ...))) if you need to use with-open
11:07	justin_smith	or yeah, actually just adding a doall
11:08	justin_smith	acron^: also, (nth (take 5 sq) 5) will always be nil
11:08	ordnungswidrig	it's actually when `map` want's to do it's thing but when (nth lines 1) forces seq
11:08	julianleviston	that code could deal with some reformatting
11:08	ordnungswidrig	that should read "actually not when `map`..."
11:09	acron^	julianleviston: i am really open to suggestion
11:09	acron^	i'm pretty new to clojure
11:09	julianleviston	it’s not immediately obvious where the let block bindings ends.
11:09	justin_smith	,(nth (take 5 [1 2 3 4 5]) 5)
11:09	clojurebot	#<IndexOutOfBoundsException java.lang.IndexOutOfBoundsException>
11:09	justin_smith	oh yeah
11:09	justin_smith	not even nil, it's an exception :)
11:09	justin_smith	,(nth (take 5 [1 2 3 4 5]) 4)
11:09	clojurebot	5
11:10	justin_smith	,(nth (take 5 [1 2 3 4 5]) 5 nil)
11:10	clojurebot	nil
11:10	acron^	sorry
11:10	acron^	the 5 was an error
11:10	justin_smith	(if you don't want the exception behavior, you can provide a default)
11:10	acron^	should be 4
11:10	justin_smith	right
11:10	ordnungswidrig	acron^: #(convert-line %) can be simplified to convert-line, unless that's a macro
11:10	acron^	ordnungswidrig: face-palm, oh yeah :)
11:11	acron^	sorry im still not 100% where i need to add thi9s doall
11:11	julianleviston	acron^: this is what I’d write it as… https://gist.github.com/JulianLeviston/c5def8e78eeca9f1eaba
11:11	acron^	around the with-open
11:11	acron^	?
11:11	justin_smith	acron^: (doall (map ...))
11:11	justin_smith	acron^: once you leave the with-open, it's too late, the with-open is closed
11:12	justin_smith	so you need to force the result before the with-open exits
11:12	acron^	ahhh
11:12	acron^	that worked perfectly
11:12	acron^	ok
11:12	acron^	so
11:12	justin_smith	it's as if you opened the gate, said "when I ask for an apple, get one from that tree, closed the gate, and then asked for an apple
11:12	justin_smith	missed a close " up there
11:13	acron^	nice analogy :)
11:13	ordnungswidrig	acron^: make sure that you "take" within the "doall" or you will force the whole file even if you process only the first n lines
11:13	acron^	nice analogy :)
11:13	acron^	oops
11:13	justin_smith	ordnungswidrig: yeah, in the original the take is inside the map call
11:14	acron^	new version: https://www.refheap.com/96947
11:14	acron^	works a treat :)
11:14	justin_smith	the first 4 should maybe be a 3? just a guess
11:15	acron^	you'd have thought so, wouldn't you?
11:15	acron^	actually the file format author decided to put 2 vars on that line, space-separated
11:15	ordnungswidrig	n acron^: a more idiomatic version https://www.refheap.com/96946
11:15	acron^	and leave blank the line above
11:16	acron^	what's the ->> notation?
11:16	ordnungswidrig	acron^: a very importand short cut to avoid (nested (deep (burried (whatever (function calls)))))
11:17	ordnungswidrig	acron^: (->> [1 2 3 4] (map odd?)) => (map odd? [1 2 3 4 5])
11:17	julianleviston	acron^: it’s the human centipede of clojure…
11:17	justin_smith	,(let [nums [1 2 3 4 5] [a b c] nums] c) ; acron^ - this is another trick that may help you
11:17	clojurebot	3
11:17	acron^	julianleviston: oh god, i hope not!
11:18	ordnungswidrig	acron^: ->> takes the first argument and inserts it as the last argument in the following expression. Then it takes the result and inserts it as the last argument to the next expression and so on.
11:18	ordnungswidrig	it a so called "threading macro".
11:18	julianleviston	acron^: there are two variants… -> feeds the output into the first arg of the next form… and ->> feeds the output into the last arg of each form.
11:18	justin_smith	acron^: the threading macros (-> / ->>) are for propagating data through expressions
11:18	acron^	Ah ok, how does it differ to just -> cs ive seen that too
11:18	acron^	Aha
11:18	ordnungswidrig	-> inserts as the first argument, ->> as the last
11:18	acron^	Got it
11:18	julianleviston	acron^: :) so pretty.
11:19	ordnungswidrig	some-> stops as soon as there's a falsey value (typically nil)
11:19	ordnungswidrig	where handy for, e.g. (some-> x inc)
11:19	julianleviston	ordnungswidrig: better explain as-> as well! :-)
11:20	ordnungswidrig	and there are cond-> and as-> which are advanced variations
11:20	justin_smith	,(some-> {false :ordnungswidrig} false str)
11:20	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Boolean cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
11:20	justin_smith	hrmph
11:20	justin_smith	,(some-> {false :ordnungswidrig} (get false) str)
11:20	clojurebot	":ordnungswidrig"
11:21	justin_smith	that never returned false though, I need coffee
11:21	justin_smith	lol
11:21	ordnungswidrig	hahaha
11:21	ordnungswidrig	(inc coffee)
11:21	lazybot	⇒ 1
11:21	ordnungswidrig	no wonder...
11:21	justin_smith	(some-> {:a false} :a)
11:21	justin_smith	,(some-> {:a false} :a)
11:21	clojurebot	false
11:22	justin_smith	,(some-> {:a false} :a inc)
11:22	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Boolean cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
11:22	justin_smith	as expected
11:22	justin_smith	,(some-> {:a nil} :a inc)
11:22	clojurebot	nil
11:22	justin_smith	ordnungswidrig: as we see, only nil short-circuits some->
11:22	justin_smith	false does not
11:22	fortruce	if I want to map a function with side effects over a seq, is there a way to do it such that I don't have to hold the entire seq in memory as it's being done?
11:22	acron^	justin_smith: https://www.refheap.com/96948
11:23	justin_smith	fortruce: dorun
11:23	justin_smith	fortruce: or use doseq instead of map
11:23	fortruce	justin_smith: thanks, i'll check those out
11:23	justin_smith	acron^: yeah, destructuring is pretty cool, huh
11:23	ordnungswidrig	justin_smith: oh, I did not know that. I wonder why.
11:23	justin_smith	ordnungswidrig: some-> is specifically for nil
11:23	justin_smith	,(doc some)
11:23	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns the first logical true value of (pred x) for any x in coll, else nil. One common idiom is to use a set as pred, for example this will return :fred if :fred is in the sequence, otherwise nil: (some #{:fred} coll)"
11:24	justin_smith	,(doc some->)
11:24	clojurebot	"([expr & forms]); When expr is not nil, threads it into the first form (via ->), and when that result is not nil, through the next etc"
11:24	ordnungswidrig	I can live with that ;-)
11:25	julianleviston	oooh
11:25	julianleviston	oh nevermind.
11:25	julianleviston	lol @ self
11:25	justin_smith	acron^: you could also replace the binding of lines with the destructure directly, but that's a style decision
11:26	julianleviston	acron^: you could also use interpose “\n” if you get bored of all those \n repetitions.
11:26	justin_smith	julianleviston: it's a little trickier with a 3 item pattern though - unless there is some interpose / concat trick
11:28	justin_smith	,(apply concat (interpose ["\n"] [[:a :b] [:c :d] [:e :f]]))
11:28	clojurebot	(:a :b "\n" :c :d ...)
11:28	justin_smith	that works, kind of, but a little clumsy
11:29	tcrayford____	so yesterday I open sourced a clojure webapp profiling tool: Clojure Miniprofiler: http://yellerapp.com/posts/2015-02-04-miniprofiler.html (in case anybody here does webapp server performance work in clojure). I'd love to hear any feedback anybody has
11:30	justin_smith	tcrayford____: COOL, I'll definitely check that out
11:30	lunk	hello, is there a more idiomatic way to do fall-back tests for resolving parameters/environment variables? http://pastebin.com/Ef2d66QY
11:30	lunk	apparently beanstalk says env, but means params, for their tomcat container
11:31	havenwood	tcrayford____: ooh, nifty!
11:36	julianleviston	justin_smith: I love clojure… ## (apply str (map #(apply str %) (let [newlines-every-second-element (comp (partial interpose "\n") (partial partition 2))] (newlines-every-second-element ["a" "b" "c" "d"]))))
11:36	lazybot	⇒ "ab\ncd"
11:37	julianleviston	justin_smith: very silly of me, I know… but I like that I can build my own custom function to do whateve I like quite efficiently as if it was a first class function. Not that my version there was particularly elegant, but yeah :)
11:40	acron^	justin_smith: https://www.refheap.com/96948
11:40	acron^	oops
11:40	acron^	sorry
11:40	acron^	keep pressing up-enter
11:41	julianleviston	,(defn interpose-nth [n i coll] ((comp (partial interpose i) (partial partition n)) coll))
11:41	clojurebot	#'sandbox/interpose-nth
11:41	julianleviston	,(interpose-nth 2 "\n" [1 2 3 4])
11:41	clojurebot	((1 2) "\n" (3 4))
11:42	julianleviston	not quite what I was after hm.
11:42	acron^	Random question - how do I specify mutiple things in :require ?
11:42	julianleviston	(:require [om.core :as om :include-macros true] …)
11:42	julianleviston	replace the … with as many of those bracketed sections as you like...
11:42	julianleviston	acron^: assuming you’re talking about the ns require?
11:43	dnolen	cfleming: ping
11:43	acron^	julianleviston: yes, thanks
11:43	acron^	it's giving me grief
11:46	acron^	thanks, i was doing something weird
11:46	julianleviston	just looking at the interpose source humbles me.
11:46	acron^	lol
11:47	julianleviston	:)
11:59	julianleviston	is there a thing like when-let which has a separate predicate function instead of the first binding?
11:59	julianleviston	(uknown-fn predicate [bindings…] (fn body)…)
12:00	julianleviston	I guess I could just do what I usually do: wrap a let in a when...
12:00	justin_smith	julianleviston: that would be an easy macro to write
12:00	llasram	julianleviston: You want the maybe monad from algo.monads
12:00	llasram	(although I do think it'd be nice if `maybe`-specialized version of it were in core)
12:01	julianleviston	I basically want (when-not empty? [x thing] ...)
12:02	gfredericks	julianleviston: use seq
12:02	julianleviston	i want when to be predicate-pluggable hehe :)
12:02	gfredericks	(when-let [x (seq thing)] ...)
12:02	justin_smith	gfredericks: or (when-let [x (not-empty thing)] ...) so that you still get the original datatype if it isn't empty
12:02	julianleviston	gfredericks: ooh cool :)
12:03	justin_smith	,(not-empty [1 2 3])
12:03	llasram	(am/domonad am/maybe-m [x (f), :when (pred1? x), y (g), :when (pred2? y)] [x y])
12:03	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
12:03	julianleviston	justin_smith: mind being bent. ;-)
12:03	julianleviston	,(not-empty [])
12:03	clojurebot	nil
12:03	gfredericks	justin_smith: not-empty is a funny function
12:03	justin_smith	gfredericks: I am very fond of it
12:03	julianleviston	,(empty [:a :b :c])
12:03	clojurebot	[]
12:03	gfredericks	it smells wasteful to my prematurely-optimizing gut
12:04	justin_smith	gfredericks: for example, (when-let [x (seq {:a 0 :b 1}] ...) - not-empty is a clear winner here
12:04	gfredericks	since it has to make a whole seq just to find out if something is empty
12:04	julianleviston	justin_smith: it is more sematically explanatory
12:04	justin_smith	gfredericks: "make a whole seq" doesn't neccessarily mean doing much work
12:04	julianleviston	justin_smith: as well
12:04	julianleviston	thanks both!
12:04	julianleviston	(inc justin_smith)
12:04	lazybot	⇒ 181
12:04	julianleviston	(inc gfredericks)
12:04	lazybot	⇒ 116
12:04	gfredericks	justin_smith: I know it's just an object allocation that feels silly
12:05	justin_smith	gfredericks: sure, but (when-let [x (seq y)] ...) doesn't improve on that much does it?
12:06	gfredericks	justin_smith: oh no, I wasn't making that comparison
12:06	julianleviston	I’d still prefer do have (when pred let-bindings) tho
12:06	justin_smith	OK, got it
12:08	ontoillo1ical	Is it possible for me to import testing namespaces from another project? I.e. I want to import his ns https://github.com/clojure-liberator/liberator/blob/master/test/checkers.clj, is there anyway to do that?
12:08	gfredericks	ontoillo1ical: tests aren't normally packaged with libraries, so you couldn't do that in any normal way
12:08	justin_smith	julianleviston: this does what you want (defmacro pred-let [cond bindings & body] `(when ~cond (let ~bindings ~@body)))
12:09	ontoillo1ical	gfredrick: thanks, I guess I'll just copy it into my own lib
12:09	julianleviston	justin_smith: I’m macro-averse…
12:09	andyf_	ontoillo1ical: If licenses are compatible or you get author's permission, you can copy the source
12:09	justin_smith	julianleviston: the macro is already done, and let and when etc. are macros already :)
12:09	julianleviston	justin_smith: but thanks heaps… I know half the language I use is macros… :)
12:09	justin_smith	julianleviston: it's a simple macro, it just works
12:10	julianleviston	justin_smith: macros also scare me from cljs… only because I’ve never built one and had it work
12:11	justin_smith	OK. If you want a better syntax, the answer is going to be a macro (though sometimes you can express something more elegantly in the existing syntax (using the macros that exist already))
12:11	csd_	,(let [[f s] (clojure.string/split "split me" #" ")] [f s])
12:11	clojurebot	["split" "me"]
12:11	andyf_	arrdem: Have you by any chance asked ClojureDocs folks if they mind if Grimoire tracks updates made to ClojureDocs in the future? Or were you planning on letting them gradually diverge?
12:12	andyf_	Well "planning" might not be the most precise use of language there :)
12:12	csd_	The clojure.string/split docstring is misleading
12:12	bbloom	ignore the crazy transducer version... the source is just (drop 1 (interleave (repeat sep) coll)) :-)
12:12	andyf_	csd_: How so?
12:12	csd_	Optional argument limit is the maximum number of splits => ["x" "y"] is one split, not two
12:13	csd_	,(let [[f s] (clojure.string/split "split me" #" " 1)] [f s])
12:13	clojurebot	["split me" nil]
12:14	llasram	(doc clojure.string/split)
12:14	clojurebot	"([s re] [s re limit]); Splits string on a regular expression. Optional argument limit is the maximum number of splits. Not lazy. Returns vector of the splits."
12:15	{blake}	I take that "split" as a noun, not a verb.
12:15	llasram	csd_: I think the fact that it "returns a vector of the splits" clarify that "split" here refers to one of the resulting split-off strings, no the split-point
12:15	{blake}	i.e., "number of splits" <> "number of times I will split this" but "number of pieces resulting".
12:15	julianleviston	{blake}: split is the gap between things, not the things
12:16	llasram	I've always found it weird in Python you specify the number of split points
12:16	julianleviston	{blake}: if you split wood in two, you’re splitting it once into two pieces… or… it is a single piece of wood with one split in it.
12:16	arrdem	andyf_: "planning" is pretty generous for me :P
12:17	justin_smith	it's just verb vs. noun, in clojure you clearly specify noun (how many results) in python the verb (how many times to perform the splitting action)
12:17	arrdem	andyf_: the plan such as it is was to at some point go through all the examples and copy edit everything rather than just mirroring the clojuredocs examples
12:17	arrdem	andyf_: reality is that other things were and are higher priority :c
12:18	julianleviston	justin_smith: yeah but “pieces” would be a better word. The noun split means gap between pieces
12:18	andyf_	arrdem: Yeah, that is a big job
12:18	{blake}	julianleviston: If you're dividing up loot from your heist, you each get a split. =P
12:18	arrdem	andyf_: it's much smaller than it sounds, but yeah it's just time with a text editor and thinking about each fn
12:19	justin_smith	{blake}: exactly
12:19	andyf_	Well, maybe I am slow at it, but there are over 600 vars in Clojure alone
12:19	{blake}	julianleviston: See definition "split (noun)" 2, 3b, & 5. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/split
12:19	justin_smith	"a piece or part separated by or as by splitting"
12:19	julianleviston	{blake}: it’s not the primary definition…
12:19	arrdem	andyf_: done with HW for the week so I'm gonna try and get all the ox stuff out of my head and crunch on Grimoire before SimpleDB takes the site down again. I'd be happy to talk to the clojuredocs folks if you think it'd be useful.
12:19	{blake}	That's English for ya. There is no noun that cannot be verbed! And vice-versa!
12:19	justin_smith	{blake}: if only we could make string/split give you an ice cream sundae containing a banana
12:20	julianleviston	justin_smith: now I’m hungry :)
12:20	{blake}	justin_smith: Ha! That would be...python-esque somehow.
12:20	justin_smith	clojure.banana could have other useful functions in it too
12:20	{blake}	Homonyms, man. I tell ya.
12:20	andyf_	I only ask because if they don't mind you periodically updating the parts if Grimoire from there to the latest, it might be nice.
12:21	andyf_	s/if/of/
12:22	{blake}	Homonyms really suck in other languages. "I already learned this means 'criminal gang', whaddayamean it's also "893"?"
12:22	arrdem	yeah. that would be nice... but getting a real editing workflow added would be nicer.
12:22	justin_smith	{blake}: that's why on the chinese internet they always call politicians "mud horse"
12:22	julianleviston	{blake}: grass mud horse...
12:23	justin_smith	that's the one, yeah :)
12:23	julianleviston	{blake}: it’s a homonym for something really rude about your mother.
12:23	{blake}	Nothing makes me happier than a defiant populace.
12:23	andyf_	arrdem: Your edit examples link could go to ClojureDocs :)
12:23	justin_smith	http://chinadigitaltimes.net/space/Grass-mud_horse
12:23	arrdem	andyf_: rofl then I may as well just close down Grimoire
12:24	justin_smith	"Originally conceived as a zebra, the grass-mud horse is now an alpaca."
12:24	arrdem	andyf_: which isn't on the cards since I just made it into gigasquid's book :P
12:24	julianleviston	{blake}: irrespective, the word is ambiguously used. Which was the problem.
12:24	andyf_	Currently you do have info they do not, e.g. Thalia content (not a lot, but something)
12:24	julianleviston	{blake}: change it to piece, and it wouldn’t be.
12:25	andyf_	Which gigasquid book is that?
12:25	arrdem	Living Clojure
12:25	arrdem	http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920034292.do
12:25	{blake}	julianleviston: I'm all for doc improvement.
12:26	arrdem	andyf_: thinking of which I probably owe you a lib-grimoire backed thalia version...
12:26	{blake}	So..."Joy of Clojure 2ed" is over $40?
12:26	justin_smith	{blake}: following some more links there, I found the delightful euphamism "death by hide and seek"
12:26	justin_smith	{blake}: worth every penny!
12:26	julianleviston	{blake}: yeah.
12:26	arrdem	something something datastore duplication.
12:26	arrdem	{blake}: totally worth
12:27	julianleviston	{blake}: makes me sad, too. I don’t have $40 to spend on it and I’ve wanted it for about a year.
12:27	{blake}	justin_smith: If that were French, I'd guess it was sexual.
12:27	julianleviston	{blake}: let alone 50+ which is what it is here...
12:27	matzie	hi, noob qn:- given a map like {:a "apple" :b "banana" :c "cherry"} , how would I create a string joining the values for some of those keys with a period, eg for :a and :c I’d want the output “apple.cherry” ?
12:27	justin_smith	{blake}: reminds me of soviet humor
12:27	bbloom	talk to your employer about starting a company library
12:28	julianleviston	matt_c: SOME of them?
12:28	matzie	bah sorry if that got emoticon’d for you
12:28	{blake}	So far I haven't had much luck with Clojure books. They tend to caught up in the weeds. Although, I'm now at the point where I can appreciate some of those weeds, and am grateful the books exist.
12:28	bbloom	ask other employees to donate their books
12:28	julianleviston	matt_c: you want “:a,:b,:c” ?
12:28	justin_smith	,(map (fn [[k v]] (str (name k) \. v)) {:a "apple" :b "banana" :c "cherry"})
12:28	clojurebot	("c.cherry" "b.banana" "a.apple")
12:28	matzie	I want to pick some keys from the map and construct a string from them
12:28	justin_smith	ahh
12:28	llasram	,(let [m {:a "apple", :b "banana", :c "cherry"}, keys [:a :b]] (clojure.string/join "." (map m keys)))
12:28	clojurebot	"apple.banana"
12:28	{blake}	justin_smith: In Soviet Russia, the joke's on you?
12:28	justin_smith	oops!
12:28	julianleviston	matt_c: ah… well
12:28	julianleviston	matt_c: select-keys will get you specifc keys...
12:29	julianleviston	oops
12:29	justin_smith	{blake}: no, I mean actual jokes from soviet russia (like the one about the man who stole stalin's pipe)
12:29	julianleviston	matzie: but you mean you want the values of particular keys…
12:29	{blake}	justin_smith: Oh, I only know a few of those. "In five years, every Soviet citizen will have helicopter!"
12:29	justin_smith	right
12:30	matzie	(actual context is a riemann event that goes to influxdb, triying to set :series to the value of :host and :service … but I’m climbing a whole lot of learning curves simultaneously)
12:30	matzie	and i don’t yet know enough clj to understand the riemann doc on this case
12:31	{blake}	(They're actually not much funnier in the original Russian...)
12:31	justin_smith	,(apply (partial clojure.string/join \.) ((juxt :a :c) {:a "apple" :b "banana" :c "cherry"}))
12:31	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (3) passed to: string/join>
12:32	justin_smith	,(clojure.string/join \. ((juxt :a :c) {:a "apple" :b "banana" :c "cherry"})
12:32	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
12:32	justin_smith	,(clojure.string/join \. ((juxt :a :c) {:a "apple" :b "banana" :c "cherry"}))
12:32	clojurebot	"apple.cherry"
12:32	julianleviston	matzie: well, you set something in a map with the assoc function...
12:32	julianleviston	matzie: ##(doc assoc)
12:32	lazybot	⇒ "([map key val] [map key val & kvs]); assoc[iate]. When applied to a map, returns a new map of the same (hashed/sorted) type, that contains the mapping of key(s) to val(s). When applied to a vector, returns a new vector that contains val at index. Note - index must be <= (count vector)."
12:33	matzie	ah… justin_smith ’s answer is making sense.
12:33	julianleviston	matzie: oh ok :)
12:33	justin_smith	(inc juxt)
12:33	lazybot	⇒ 19
12:34	justin_smith	matzie: though select-keys would work better if the keys were eg. strings instead of keywords
12:35	matzie	so… I have a map, ‘event’, already which contains many keys, of which I want to take two (:host and :service), and create a period-separated string from those… I think I can work with this info, thanks all
12:35	justin_smith	np
12:39	gfredericks	could refs & stm & such be a library?
12:39	gfredericks	I guess they interact with agents pretty closely
12:40	justin_smith	gfredericks: I think refs + agents would want to be one lib
12:40	justin_smith	gfredericks: but atoms, apropriately, could stand on their own :)
12:44	justin_smith	gfredericks: also, you would probably end up with futures+agents using separate pools instead of sharing one
12:45	hiredman_	if the stm exposed hooks for detecting transaction commits (which I am pretty sure ztellman wants, I seem to recall discussing this in a loud bar) agents could just hook in
12:45	justin_smith	oh, that's interesting
12:46	gfredericks	~this \|was\| discussed in a loud bar
12:46	clojurebot	In Ordnung
12:53	dnolen	wow the ability to break on uncaught exceptions in CursiveClojure is going to change my life
12:57	bbloom	dnolen: one of these days yet we'll have every obviously good tool in one damn language :-P
12:57	dnolen	bbloom: eh between real static analysis, real debugging support, real refactoring support I'm not going to dumb text editors for Clojure programming.
12:58	dnolen	going back
12:59	bbloom	dnolen: understood. we've discussed this, but for onlookers: i use intellj for java most of the time and the rest of the time i do major text editing via vim, switching back and forth --- may consider doing similar for clojure soon
13:00	dnolen	bbloom: the Emacs simluation in IntelliJ is amazingly good, otherwise I would feel the pain more. I imagine getting the real VIM experience is a different matter.
13:00	bbloom	dnolen: yeah, evil is the only vim emulator that even comes close, but it just breaks muscle memory so badly
13:00	bbloom	uncanny valley thing going on. i'd almost rather a significantly worse emulation
13:01	bbloom	bigger problem is that there's never a good time to switch
13:01	bbloom	~2 weeks lost productivity is a hard fixed cost to pay
13:01	clojurebot	Alles klar
13:03	bbloom	dnolen: the ktc crew going to come out for some composable macros at PWL tonight?
13:03	TimMc	clojurebot: 2 weeks lost productivity?
13:03	clojurebot	2 weeks lost productivity is a hard fixed cost to pay
13:03	bbloom	TimMc: nice.
13:03	dnolen	bbloom: I'm coming for sure
13:03	bbloom	cool
13:03	dnolen	bbloom: not sure about Kovas
13:04	bbloom	looking forward to meeting Sam, as we've had some fun twitter interactions in the past
13:05	gfredericks	the threadBound field on the Var class is interesting
13:06	gfredericks	I have to assume it's just a perf thing
13:06	justin_smith	gfredericks: isn't that about dynamic vars?
13:06	gfredericks	yeah
13:06	gfredericks	it starts out false
13:07	gfredericks	and the first time you use binding on a var it (for that var) gets set to true, and then it just stays true forever
13:07	gfredericks	afaict
13:07	bbloom	i wondered about that as well
13:07	bbloom	it seems like you could check instanceof Unbound
13:07	bbloom	saving a pointer & an atomic deref
13:07	gfredericks	check that on what?
13:08	gfredericks	the root being unbound doesn't say anything about whether the var has a thread-local binding
13:08	TMA	VIM emulation in IntelliJ is quite good -- at least compared to eclipse or netbeans counterparts; alas I have never got around to acquire more than basic knowledge of emacs
13:08	bbloom	gfredericks: er, yeah, you're right
13:08	bbloom	gfredericks: sorry, was speaking from memory (poorly)
13:09	gfredericks	so presumably it only helps for dynamic vars that don't ever get bound
13:09	gfredericks	which I guess could happen enough in practice?
13:09	tcrayford____	gfredericks: sounds like a thing one could measure haha
13:10	gfredericks	tcrayford____: well it's more about how dynamic vars get used in different codebases
13:10	Bronsa	gfredericks: Var.java is kinda confusing. there's dead and duplicated code
13:10	gfredericks	e.g., libraries that have them for some kind of config that's rarely used
13:10	tcrayford____	so measure some open source ones haha
13:10	gfredericks	tcrayford____: well it's not just about the library itself but how people use them
13:11	tcrayford____	gfredericks: guess there's not really enough open source apps to measure that haha
13:12	gfredericks	tcrayford____: appending "haha" is your new verbal tick?
13:14	tcrayford____	haha
13:21	gfredericks	,(keys (get-thread-bindings))
13:21	clojurebot	(#<Var: --unnamed--> #'clojure.core/ns #'clojure.core/read-eval #'clojure.core/err #<Var: --unnamed--> ...)
13:22	gfredericks	^ surprised at how many unnameds there are
13:23	gfredericks	I just deref'd all the unnamed vars in my repl and got (nil 72 0 true nil nil 1 1 1 21982 19308 #<clojure.lang.DynamicClassLoader@f774f clojure.lang.DynamicClassLoader@f774f>)
13:23	tcrayford____	gfredericks: in a fresh reepl?
13:23	gfredericks	not too fresh
13:24	gfredericks	haha
13:24	tcrayford____	freshen up
13:25	sentient22	Can I ask a really noob question?
13:25	tcrayford____	sentient22: welcome. Yes!
13:25	sentient22	Okay so, new to clojure, been reading the documentation
13:25	gfredericks	lol a fresh repl stackoverflows for (get-thread-bindings) at java.util.Currency.getInstance
13:25	tcrayford____	(typically in irc: don't ask if you can ask a question, just ask it)
13:25	sentient22	Lists can't be indexed, according to the docs
13:25	gfredericks	tcrayford____: well you might at least have to establish the purpose of the channel
13:26	justin_smith	sentient22: you can use nth, but they are not associative
13:27	sentient22	Okay, so my question is then why does (assuming my list is '(1 2 3)) (.indexOf my-list 1) return 0?
13:27	justin_smith	sentient22: that's not the same sense of "indexing" that we mean regarding associative data structures
13:27	gfredericks	what docs say "can't be indexed"?
13:28	sentient22	http://clojure-doc.org/articles/tutorials/introduction.html
13:28	sentient22	and justin_smith okay that makes a little more sense
13:28	Bronsa	,(nth '(1 2 3) 0)
13:28	clojurebot	1
13:28	justin_smith	sentient22: "access by index" is not the same as getting the item from an index
13:28	justin_smith	sentient22: nth walks a list until it gets to n
13:29	justin_smith	sentient22: while with a vector you can directly access item n
13:29	sentient22	Yeah okay I see what you're saying. Cool. Thanks!
13:29	sentient22	Just got confused for a second because for some reason I thought .indexOf would fail
13:29	sentient22	But it was just my own mind playing tricks on me lol
13:29	justin_smith	sentient22: yeah, it's a different usage of the word index
13:30	sentient22	yeah. Thanks all!
13:30	justin_smith	sentient22: clojure tries to avoid abstracting over things that lead to big inefficiencies, treating lists as lookup arrays is one example of that
13:31	justin_smith	(of a thing that is made less convenient because it's inefficient)
13:31	sentient22	Ahh yeah okay
13:34	gfredericks	,clojure.lang.Var/rev
13:34	clojurebot	989
14:29	mgaare	having a strange issue with tools.namespace. I do (refresh) on a fresh repl, it says it's reloading all the ns's, throws an exception loading a later ns that an earlier loaded ns was not found. If I go through and manually compile all the ns's, it eventually works fine
14:32	stuartsierra	mgaare: AOT
14:32	tbaldridge	~aot
14:33	clojurebot	aot was so ahead of its time
14:33	tbaldridge	~aot
14:33	clojurebot	aot was so ahead of its time
14:35	gfredericks	tbaldridge: sorry did I pollute actual useful things that the bot says?
14:35	tbaldridge	gfredericks: nah, I forget what the right incantation is to get the "AOT" image
14:35	tbaldridge	~AOT
14:35	clojurebot	AOT is kinda broken already
14:35	tbaldridge	~AOT
14:35	clojurebot	AOT is kinda broken already
14:36	tbaldridge	it was the aliens guy
14:36	tbaldridge	oh well
14:37	stuartsierra	How about this http://imgur.com/ojVQfVv
14:39	tbaldridge	I was thinking of this one: https://i.imgflip.com/h9gtq.jpg
14:39	tbaldridge	but yeah, that works too
14:43	stuartsierra	I think we scared off mgaare.
14:43	TimMc	~aot
14:43	clojurebot	http://i.qkme.me/3vb225.jpg
14:44	TimMc	It's case-sensitive, I guess.
14:48	hyPiRion	hrm
14:49	mgaare	stuartsierra: sorry, someone grabbed me to look at an issue where cljsbuild was working under bash and failing under zsh..... no idea. anyway, thanks, after a lein clean things are reloading again
14:49	hyPiRion	,(map (comp first second) ['#(+ %) `#(+ %)])
14:49	clojurebot	(p1__25# p1__26__27__auto__)
14:50	TimMc	yup
14:51	TimMc	I've occasionally wondered about that.
14:51	llasram	auto-gensymed gensyms?
14:52	hyPiRion	I wonder if it matters.
14:54	stuartsierra	clojurebot: tools.namespace
14:54	clojurebot	I don't understand.
14:55	TimMc	~you
14:55	clojurebot	you have to double-pinky-swear before you :refer :all
14:55	stuartsierra	haha
14:57	gfredericks	~you
14:58	clojurebot	you are a weirdo
14:58	bbloom	awesome.
14:59	llasram	~you
14:59	clojurebot	you are the cloud
14:59	llasram	YES
14:59	gfredericks	~it
14:59	clojurebot	it is time for clojure history anecdotes with technomancy
15:00	llasram	Awww
15:00	gfredericks	~it
15:00	clojurebot	it is for clojure.pprint/cl-format :)
15:01	bbloom	~why
15:01	clojurebot	bbloom: because you can't handle the truth!
15:01	bbloom	:-)
15:01	bbloom	~what
15:01	clojurebot	what is cells
15:01	bbloom	~what?
15:01	clojurebot	what is not a bug
15:01	gfredericks	llasram: I was thinking that
15:01	gfredericks	~I
15:01	clojurebot	I don't have any opinions of my own
15:01	llasram	~clojurebot
15:01	clojurebot	clojurebot is perhaps the definition of a legacy software system
15:01	bbloom	~i
15:01	clojurebot	i is disapoint
15:01	bbloom	~i
15:01	clojurebot	i is disapoint
15:01	bbloom	~i
15:02	llasram	Now that is disapoint
15:03	hyPiRion	~gfredericks
15:03	clojurebot	gfredericks is gfredricks
15:03	llasram	ha
15:04	hyPiRion	clojurebot, tautologist
15:04	TimMc	Is it possibly getting factoids over a network connection like it does with eval?
15:04	clojurebot	excusez-moi
15:04	gfredericks	actually it's a misspelling
15:05	gfredericks	I guess to make the factoids less spelling sensitive
15:05	gfredericks	~gfredricks
15:05	clojurebot	gfredricks is a menace to bots everywhere
15:05	gfredericks	~gfredericks
15:05	clojurebot	gfredericks is a DSL for seeding clojurebot with high-concept talk ideas
15:06	gfredericks	~bbloom is an ornithologist
15:06	clojurebot	A nod, you know, is as good as a wink to a blind horse.
15:06	bbloom	gfredericks: fishing for a bird talk?
15:06	gfredericks	yep
15:06	gfredericks	I assume some sort of metaphor about birds living in trees
15:06	llasram	as long as he doesn't start birding for a fish talk
15:06	bbloom	gfredericks: you figure out how to get me to rant about birds and maybe i can do that for you
15:06	gfredericks	I'm sure you'll work it out so it makes sense
15:07	TimMc	mockingbirds
15:07	llasram	Because I don't know what that would mean
15:07	TimMc	I'll tell you when you're older?
15:08	llasram	heh
15:09	hiredman_	llasram: it is doing terrible core.logic things to infer new facts
15:09	TimMc	So with the right set of facts we could make it hang for absurdly long?
15:09	hiredman_	any set?
15:10	TimMc	You're suggesting that it already hangs for absurdly long?
15:11	hiredman_	I dunno
15:12	llasram	hiredman_: ah, interesting
15:12	hiredman_	a never used feature is clojurebot keeps a list of infered facts for some amount of time after being asked something, and if it is given a botsnack before a timeout it stores those facts in the db so they don't need inference again
15:13	llasram	oh!
15:13	llasram	That's cool
15:14	gfredericks	hiredman and his intimate secrets about clojurebot
15:14	llasram	clojurebot: ~it is time for clojure history anecdotes with hiredman
15:14	clojurebot	In Ordnung
15:14	llasram	Damn it
15:15	llasram	meant that to be clojurebot, but I am bad at editing text
15:15	hiredman_	clojurebot: origin story?
15:15	clojurebot	http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-11-21.html#13:04
15:15	llasram	Oh my
15:16	llasram	Way back from in the rhickey-on-IRC era
15:17	llasram	Pretty amusing that rhickey's handle gets highlighted in red there
15:23	tbaldridge	llasram: kind of like a red-letter Bible
15:23	TimMc	hiredman_: I've done ~botsmack after an inference but maybe not a ~botsnack.
15:24	rhickey	Thou shalt not mutate within my sight.
15:24	tbaldridge	rofl
15:25	TimMc	(let's see if that highlighting is still in effect)
15:28	moquist	I've read this line about 20 times and I still only understand it if the word order is wrong: "If a transaction specifies a unique identity for a temporary id, and that unique identity already exists in the database, then that temporary id will resolve to the existing entity in the system." (from http://docs.datomic.com/identity.html )
15:29	moquist	It seems to me that it wants to say: "If a transaction specifies a temporary id for a unique identity attribute, and that unique identity already exists..."
15:29	kirill	hi all, is there some kind of generic way to turn off various annoying logs from java libraries? I'm using a clojure library that uses netty, and I keep getting messages like "[main] DEBUG i.n.util.internal.PlatformDependent0"... which I'm not interested in
15:29	moquist	Am I misunderstanding, or on the right track?
15:31	llasram	kirill: Depends on the logging libraries in play. Usually you can tweak which classes log at what level with a small Java property file
15:31	amalloy	kirill: you basically have to figure out how java's logging works, and create an appropriate log4j.properties file (or whatever library is being used)
15:32	stuartsierra	moquist: "identity" in this case refers to the value of an attribute with db.unique/identity.
15:32	stuartsierra	As in, your account number is an "identity" for you at the bank.
15:33	stuartsierra	At least I think that's what it means. :)
15:48	TimMc	llasram: Check out the source for the IRC logs. For rhickey lines it has class="bdfl" :-P
15:51	gfredericks	~bdfl
15:51	clojurebot	Excuse me?
15:57	seangrove	I don't suppose there's anything like om/shared in reagent?
16:01	bbloom	gfredericks: i could however probably give a whole talk about record players
16:01	gfredericks	bbloom: I don't think there's any good reason not to
16:01	bbloom	i don't know anything about records / record-players, other than that i'm sick of picking up a record and having a record player attached to it ;-)
16:02	bbloom	(this is me bitching about OOP, if you can't tell)
16:02	gfredericks	~this is bbloom bitching about OOP
16:02	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
16:02	gfredericks	~this
16:02	clojurebot	this was discussed in a loud bar
16:04	gfredericks	bbloom: not a bad metaphor
16:04	bbloom	not strictly mine: it's from GEB
16:04	bbloom	but it has stuck with me
16:05	gfredericks	oh man he couldn't'vebeentalkingabout OOP in context though
16:05	sobel	(inc GEB)
16:05	lazybot	⇒ 1
16:05	bbloom	i particularly enjoyed the bit about whether or not aliens could interpret a record "correctly".... even if they got it to produce sounds, would it elicit the emotion that the composer was intending? who knows.
16:13	nicferrier	has anyone done any static analysis on clojure? for example security analysis?
16:16	dagda1	I'm trying to solve the project euler problem for selecting the nth prime number, my code works but it is not quick enough https://gist.github.com/dagda1/1f765e0fcade3193f1e0 can anyone suggest what is the bottle neck
16:17	dagda1	by not quick enought, I mean it times out for the bigger numbers thrown at it on the test hacker site
16:17	dagda1	I was thinking if I could ignore even numbers apart from 2 in the (iterate inc 2) bit
16:18	dagda1	I'm surprised it times out TBH, I'm not really using loop/recur
16:20	jinagarano	noir.validation/rule doesn't set any errors for me. syntax is correct, arguments are passed properly, and if i evaluate them in the repl, the checks give proper return values. does anyone have an idea what the problem could be?
16:24	gfredericks	dagda1: you're filtering on (range 2 n) which takes a while for large n
16:25	dagda1	gfredericks is there an alternative that you know?
16:26	gfredericks	going up to (inc (Math/sqrt n)) is sufficient
16:27	dagda1	gfredericks are lazy sequences slow?
16:28	hyPiRion	I'd say the algorithm is more important than the underlying data structures here.
16:28	gfredericks	yep
16:29	dagda1	gfredericks: indeed
16:29	hyPiRion	But if you need low constant factors and don't want to find a clever algorithm to make primes, you could always use https://github.com/hyPiRion/primes
16:29	dagda1	hyPiRion: I know but it is all about learning clojure
16:29	gfredericks	and https://github.com/gfredericks/composites
16:30	hyPiRion	dagda1: ah. Well, then I'd focus on the algorithms :) I've done some project euler problems in Clojure, and the data structures doesn't really matter if you're doing them "the right way"
16:31	gfredericks	well you don't want to misuse the data structures at least
16:31	hyPiRion	Oh, yeah.
16:32	gfredericks	good ole (vec (concat (subvec v 0 i) [x] (subvec v i (count v)))) ;; lifehack
16:33	hyPiRion	gfredericks: psh, (-> (subvec v 0 i) (conj x) (into (subvec v i (count v))))
16:33	TimMc	Good thing we're using performant datastructures, amirite?
16:34	gfredericks	huh; does that work?
16:35	gfredericks	,(def v (vec (range 10)))
16:35	gfredericks	,(def i 3)
16:35	clojurebot	#'sandbox/v
16:35	clojurebot	#'sandbox/i
16:35	gfredericks	,(def x "fort-ytwo")
16:35	clojurebot	#'sandbox/x
16:35	gfredericks	,(-> (subvec v 0 i) (conj x) (into (subvec v i (count v))))
16:35	clojurebot	[0 1 2 "fort-ytwo" 3 ...]
16:35	gfredericks	hrm
16:35	gfredericks	I remember some difficulties with subvectors and transients, I guess it just means that into doesn't use them
16:36	hyPiRion	gfredericks: should be fine if they're implemented correctly
16:36	hyPiRion	but yeah, when you speak about it, I remember something about that as well
16:36	raspasov	does anyone know what's the memory cost of (go (loop [] (do "something") (recur)))
16:37	justin_smith	raspasov: nearly nothing, it compiles to about what a while true loop would
16:37	dagda1	gfredericks: could you explain.... going up to (inc (Math/sqrt n)) is sufficient
16:38	gfredericks	dagda1: any divisor above sqrt(n) has a corresponding divisor below sqrt(n)
16:38	gfredericks	e.g., 100 is divisible by 20, but it's also divisible by (/ 100 20) == 5
16:39	justin_smith	another way to put it: it will have no pair of factors where both are greater than its square root
16:39	_alejandro	gfredericks: dagda1 because for any x,y > sqrt(n), x * y > n^2
16:39	_alejandro	doh x * y > n
16:40	raspasov	justin_smith: thanks, I have a use case where I'd have potentially a lot of those to ensure sequential operations to many locations, wondering if I should worry about GC-ing those loops when they are not in use
16:40	justin_smith	raspasov: I would be much more concerned about the CPU cost
16:41	raspasov	GC-ing the loop while ensuring that re-establishing the loop doesn't violate the sequential semantics seems tricky without going into lock land
16:42	tcrayford____	You care about GCing the loop - if you don't, you can cause unbounded thread growth on the JVM (iirc)
16:42	raspasov	justin_smith: well I assume that having a bunch of loops parked doesn't incur any cost? most of the loops will be parked most of time
16:42	justin_smith	raspasov: also, gc automatically reclaims resources, but you can't actually "gc" anything. You can make a loop stop (easiest from inside the loop) but the vm decides when to reuse the memory
16:42	justin_smith	raspasov: parked core.async loops?
16:43	moquist	Hm. stuartsierra seems to be gone now, but here's code I wrote to test my suggested change to the Datomic docs: https://github.com/moquist/datomic-uniqueness-ftw
16:43	justin_smith	raspasov: core.async makes a big difference here, because they won't actually hog a thread if parked
16:43	raspasov	justin_smith: by GC-in the loop I mean "ending" the loop by having it not (recur) or be parked any more
16:43	raspasov	justin_smith: yes I'm aware of that
16:43	justin_smith	raspasov: OK, I think "halt" is more clear here
16:43	raspasov	that's why I'm using them :)
16:43	justin_smith	raspasov: OK, but you didn't mention core.async, that is like - the most important detail here
16:44	justin_smith	a parked go block isn't going to use many resources at all, no
16:44	raspasov	justin_smith: well (go) assumes the non-thread version
16:44	justin_smith	raspasov: which is why I asked if it was parking (you can't park (thread))
16:44	raspasov	there's the (thread (loop [])) version that actually blocks a real thread I think
16:44	justin_smith	right
16:45	justin_smith	that can only block, it doesn't really park
16:45	raspasov	yea but this is a potentially very long lived process, and over time there could be 100s of thousands of parked loops
16:45	raspasov	I believe the documentation uses "park" for the "fake" threads and "block" for the real threads
16:46	justin_smith	frankly I'm not sure how that would scale, but I bet some profiling would help you predict
16:46	raspasov	but anyway I think we understand each other :)
16:46	tcrayford____	raspasov: depends on your machine too. I've seen modern machines do that many native threads ;)
16:46	tbaldridge	gos are attached to channels when parked, if the channel is GC'd the gos will be as well.
16:46	justin_smith	raspasov: yes, go glocks can park or block, threads can only block
16:46	raspasov	tbaldridge: oh that's good to know, thanks!
16:47	tbaldridge	raspasov: go blocks are really just fancy callbacks, so they behave the same way that (take! c (fn [v] ...)) would
16:47	amalloy	go blocks can block?
16:47	tbaldridge	sure, if you do something blocking in them ;-)
16:47	justin_smith	amalloy: if you fuck up you can do something blocking in a go block
16:47	amalloy	well, i guess that's fair
16:47	justin_smith	it's a bad idea though
16:47	tbaldridge	or if you do something stupid like, (chan 10 (map (fn [x] (Thread/sleep 10000) x)))
16:47	sobel	is that why <! is distinct from <!! ?
16:47	sobel	(parking)
16:47	tbaldridge	exactly
16:48	raspasov	yea I always send to an agent or future or something else non-blocking if I have some IO to do, et
16:48	sobel	hey, i'm learning
16:48	raspasov	etc
16:48	sobel	reasoning even
16:48	tbaldridge	raspasov: or instead of a future, just use (thread ...) that way you get backpressure
16:48	tbaldridge	*instead of a agent
16:48	_alejandro	raspasov: https://tbaldridge.pivotshare.com/media/core.async-episode-7-gc'd-go-blocks/9394/feature was useful for me to understand how core.async and gc interact
16:48	sobel	small victories. hoping to deploy the first clojure in a client env. for my company next week, too. :)
16:48	raspasov	tbaldrige: yes, I do use that as well, thanks!
16:49	raspasov	tbaldridge*
16:52	raspasov	_alejandro: thanks I'll check that out!
16:54	cfleming	dnolen: pong
16:55	dnolen	cfleming: figured out, being able to drop into the debugger on any exception in IntelliJ is sick
16:55	dnolen	cfleming: gonna save me hours
16:55	cfleming	dnolen: Yeah, that's a life-saver. I need to document the debugger now that it works properly.
16:56	dnolen	cfleming: it's seriously amazing
16:56	cfleming	dnolen: Expression evaluation now works too.
16:56	raspasov	dnolen: do you run your project directly from IntelliJ or connect remotely to a REPL in a terminal?
16:56	dnolen	raspasov: locally
16:56	cfleming	dnolen: I'm going to propose a talk for Clojure/West on the debugger I think.
16:56	dnolen	cfleming: my Clojure debugging workflow is finally almost as good as ClojureScript, lol
16:56	raspasov	dnolen: yea I was trying to make that work the other day but some leiningen plugin was causing me trouble
16:57	cfleming	dnolen: Haha
16:57	raspasov	otherwise can't wait to get all the IntelliJ/YourKit local goodness :)
16:57	amalloy	cfleming: i would install intellij just for a debugger
16:57	cfleming	dnolen: Since eval now works, you can now also put conditions on breakpoints too
16:58	cfleming	amalloy: Now's your chance! Some bugfixes in the next drop too.
16:58	raspasov	cfleming: yes do that, I've been using Cursive for months and I think I only managed to start it once by accident :)
16:58	cfleming	Some Java-specific (but mostly relevant) info here: https://confluence.jetbrains.com/display/IntelliJIDEA/Debugger
16:59	sobel	what's the status of Cursive? do you have to own IntelliJ to use Cursive or what?
16:59	cfleming	sobel: No, it works with the free community edition.
16:59	raspasov	IntelliJ community edition is great & free
16:59	sobel	cool
17:00	amalloy	my main objection to intellij is that it doesn't start with an E like every other great editor/ide
17:00	dnolen	sobel: the intention however is the Cursive will cost money in the future, but at this point I'm all "take my money" already :)
17:00	raspasov	amalloy: that's a pretty big price to pay :)
17:00	amalloy	emacs, eclipse, and of course ed
17:01	cfleming	Yeah, since evim changed its name, I'm bugging JetBrains to do the same.
17:01	raspasov	what about Notepad, I heard all the legit hackers only use Notepad
17:02	cfleming	sobel: The idea is that there'll be a standalone version of Cursive, and a plugin to IntelliJ for those using Ultimate Edition. The same licence will work for both, so you'll be able to switch.
17:02	justin_smith	cfleming: ex ;)
17:02	hiredman_	back when I was doing euler problems in clojure I did them mostly in notepad++ with a clojure repl running in a cmd.exe window
17:02	hiredman_	worked great
17:02	raspasov	for clarification I'm talking about the most basic Notepad that comes with Windows since prob 95 lol
17:02	sobel	dnolen: that was my exp. with IntelliJ: take my money!
17:03	dnolen	sobel: well cfleming is continuing in that great tradition then
17:03	sobel	having LT and SublimeText both with working REPLs really cuts my urgency, though.
17:03	hiredman_	raspasov: sure, the biggest improvement of notepad++ over notepad in this case is notepad++ will hilight matching parans
17:04	sobel	but i have to think about more than myself, i'm hoping to start a whisper campaign for clojure to replace all our stupid groovy code here
17:04	sobel	and maybe some of the core java
17:04	raspasov	hiredman_: haha yea, I can't imagine not having color coding lol
17:04	amalloy	hiredman_: i'd have guessed the biggest improvement is it doesn't completely fail at handling unix line endings
17:04	hiredman_	the great thing about having a lot of practice copying and pasting code between an editor and a repl is it is a workflow that works everywhere
17:05	hiredman_	I can do things the same if the repl is in an ssh session in to dev or qa servers vs locally
17:05	expez	:db/id #db/id[:db.part/db] <- what does this literal notation mean in datomic schemas? Is this simply how you tell datomic to fabricate an id for you?
17:05	sobel	hiredman_: that's where i'm coming from, and it's a great advantage until i don't need it and then it becomes a costly capability to maintain
17:05	amalloy	i've tried turning on paren-highlighting in emacs, and couldn't really get the hang of it. it feels like a distraction, and not really needed when you have paredit commands like paredit-backward-up or whatever
17:08	sobel	indenting/coloring in ST3 seem to be ok
17:09	moquist	expez: Yes. See the docs for d/tempid, also.
17:16	justin_smith	tbaldridge: above, when you recommended using (thread) for things that might block, do you mean putting the whole loop in (thread) or just the blocking action?
17:16	tbaldridge	the whole loop
17:16	justin_smith	ahh, OK
17:17	tbaldridge	or at least move the the blocking bits to a different thread via a channel
17:17	justin_smith	tbaldridge: right, and they would be in their own loop in a (thread) block
17:24	sobel	has anyone (present) deployed with nginx-clojure? the nginx's cosocket support seems like it would be a pretty good boost.
17:27	justin_smith	sobel: my impression was that the boost nginx-clojure offers doesn't apply to the main bottlenecks you'd actually see in a clojure app. That said I haven't tested it to confirm.
17:31	sobel	justin_smith: i try to plan ahead to take advantage of the deployment environment for flexibility and performance, so i am looking to nginx for simple vertical scaling
17:32	sobel	need to borrow a prod environment to beat it up sometime
17:32	justin_smith	sobel: how would the nginx plugin make deployment / scaling easier?
17:32	justin_smith	sobel: you can get a digitalocean server for like $10 a month
17:34	dagda1	gfredericks: thanks
17:34	mgaare	sobel: have you seen this? https://github.com/ptaoussanis/clojure-web-server-benchmarks
17:34	sobel	justin_smith: the obvious/minimum needs are serving static content and proxying dynamic content reqs to your app. my experience is apache2 (to say nothing of nginx) beats java for that kind of service
17:35	justin_smith	sobel: sure, for security if nothing else I put nginx in front of my clojure app
17:35	mgaare	sobel: probably the most common way to do clojure web deployment is to have nginx as a reverse proxy in front of a clojure app
17:35	justin_smith	sobel: what I don't get is the rationale for putting the jvm inside the nginx process
17:35	mgaare	and the clojure web app runs using an embedded web server
17:35	justin_smith	exactly
17:36	sobel	interesting. i had not seen that graph since the may 2014 data.
17:38	sobel	i have been pretty used to deploying tomcat with mod_jk or just http proxying, but i was looking at OpenRESTy as an app platform when i saw nginx-clojure and started thinking clojure would be a brilliant member of that platform
17:39	sobel	so the interest is at least partly experimental. glad to see other servers reaching parity (and then some) with nginx-clojure, rather than leaving it in the dust :)
17:39	dah	yeah, http reverse proxy has to be the most simple to configure and operate
17:40	dah	it's handy to be able to hit the application server directly locally, too
17:40	mgaare	sobel: also, have you seen immutant?
17:40	dah	instead of it being embedded or speaking some binary protocol
17:40	mgaare	(gotta give the shout-out there, those guys are great)
17:40	sobel	mgaare: no, but it's on my radar now
17:41	mgaare	sobel: what's particularly nice about the new version of immutant is that you can deploy an app that uses the immutant libraries either standalone or inside a wildfly (nee jboss) container
17:42	sobel	haven't heard that name (jboss) in a while
17:42	justin_smith	sobel: it's the container for the top performer on that benchmark :)
17:43	sobel	justin_smith: good enough for me!
17:47	jcrossley3	mgaare: thanks :)
17:48	jcrossley3	sobel: find us in #immutant if you get stuck
17:48	sobel	thanks!
17:49	jcrossley3	sobel: justin_smith: technically, that benchmark was run with immutant out of container, no wildfly involved.
17:49	justin_smith	jcrossley3: oh, OK
17:50	justin_smith	jcrossley3: shows how much I know :)
17:50	sobel	is it faster with wildfly?
17:50	jcrossley3	sobel: i wouldn't expect much difference at all, tbh. undertow is doing all the work either in-or-out of wildfly
17:50	sobel	k
17:51	sobel	i really thought SQL would be the last data-drive language i'd ever need
17:52	tehgeekmeister	how do i coerce a url to a string representing just the contents of the url?
17:52	tcrayford____	tehgeekmeister: what url type do you have, and what do you mean by "contents"
17:52	tehgeekmeister	have a file url
17:52	amalloy	also by "coerce"
17:52	sobel	.toString?
17:53	tcrayford____	the path, the protocol? the host?
17:53	tehgeekmeister	want just the portion after the file: bit
17:53	tcrayford____	tehgeekmeister: what url class is it
17:53	tcrayford____	(class url)
17:53	tehgeekmeister	on it
17:53	tcrayford____	(probably .getPath for a java.net.URL)
17:53	tehgeekmeister	yep, that's the kind it is
17:54	tehgeekmeister	will try now
17:54	tcrayford____	(no idea if that actually works though, just scanned through the javadoc)
17:54	amalloy	,(let [s "file:///home/akm/whatever.txt", u (java.net.URI. s)] (.getSchemeSpecificPart u))
17:54	clojurebot	"///home/akm/whatever.txt"
17:54	tehgeekmeister	it seems to have worked
17:56	amalloy	tehgeekmeister: just about anything will work fine for a file: url; the question is what you want it to do on other sorts of uris
17:56	amalloy	eg, for http://google.com?q=wikipedia
17:56	tehgeekmeister	this is always going to be a file url in this case
17:56	tehgeekmeister	i'm really just trying to get the path to a resource in my leiningen project
17:56	tehgeekmeister	a shell script i want to bundle and execute
17:57	tehgeekmeister	(by bundle i mean bundle with the app)
17:57	amalloy	why do you need its path?
17:57	tehgeekmeister	for shelling out to it
17:57	tehgeekmeister	conch takes paths,
17:57	tehgeekmeister	not files
17:57	amalloy	if you bundle it with the app, it won't be in a file at all, but in your jar
17:58	tehgeekmeister	crap
17:58	tehgeekmeister	i seriously misunderstood something, then
17:58	tehgeekmeister	i found this code on the net, and have been building off of it
17:58	tcrayford____	you could always copy it out of the jar and throw it in /tmp
17:58	tcrayford____	#notagoodideathough
17:58	justin_smith	tehgeekmeister: you can slurp the file and provide that to /bin/sh via conch maybe?
17:58	tehgeekmeister	(-> (Thread/currentThread) .getContextClassLoader (.getResource path))
17:59	tehgeekmeister	and using that to get files of things in the resource directory
17:59	justin_smith	tehgeekmeister: how did the files get out of the jar?
17:59	amalloy	tehgeekmeister: that's fine if you actually have files. but if you're distributing this program as a runnable jar
17:59	amalloy	instead of as like a "please clone the git repo and run from that"
17:59	tehgeekmeister	i can distribute it however i want
18:00	tehgeekmeister	could be made jar-friendly later, if need be
18:00	tehgeekmeister	for now, i can just use it as a repo
18:00	tehgeekmeister	good to know it is not yet jar friendly, though
18:03	bashed	Can anyone point me to a good intro on how clojure or any other immutability-centric language handles performance issues? Intuitively, it would seem that in-place transformation of a data structure would be more performant than making a copy of the data structure for each action.
18:04	justin_smith	bashed: full copies are not needed if you can't mutate :)
18:04	amalloy	bashed: it is, but we don't actually copy the whole data structure
18:04	justin_smith	bashed: basic idea, you have a tree which shares most of its structure
18:05	sobel	bashed: the nutshell explanation for me is that immutability takes a lot of complexity out of concurrency, which helps performance. also, as mentioned, the data structures support cheating our way around full copies
18:05	bashed	Oh, so is there a case when the immutability really affects perforamnce?
18:06	amalloy	bashed: i mean, every operation is slightly slower than the equivalent mutate-in-place operation
18:06	justin_smith	bashed: sure, it affects cache behavior because we have more heap fragmentation
18:06	sobel	sure. you won't have to lock a clojure data structure yourself.
18:06	amalloy	but it's not a lot slower, and you get a lot of benefits out of it, like keeping old versions, not needing to lock...
18:06	justin_smith	bashed: but most apps don't need to optimize to that level (and we have java arrays if you hit that point)
18:08	turbofail	oh boy. a badly formatted sha1sum file for a maven artifact
18:09	hyPiRion	turbofail: like https://repo1.maven.org/maven2/org/apache/spark/spark-core_2.10/1.2.0/spark-core_2.10-1.2.0.pom.md5
18:09	hyPiRion	(?)
18:10	turbofail	yep, that's the one
18:14	turbofail	ah, after following the chain of bug reports i arrive at some stuff you're involved in
18:19	justin_smith	turbofail: the hyPiRion is calling from inside the thread
18:19	sobel	haha
18:21	hyPiRion	turbofail: I should've given you the tip about `:checksum :warn` as a temporary fix
18:21	turbofail	then who was lein?!?
18:22	tcrayford____	hyPiRion: any idea if there's a faster way to iterate through PersistentTreeMap than reduce-kv (e.g. without allocating a function)
18:23	tcrayford____	loop/recur are (with first/rest calls), surprisingly slower
18:23	tcrayford____	wait, not treemap, persistentarraymap
18:24	turbofail	hyPiRion: yeah. unfortunately my stuff is still broken even after succesfully fetching the dependency, but that's an unrelated issue
18:24	amalloy	it's not at all surprising that loop/recur is slower than reduce-kv
18:24	amalloy	allocating a function to give to reduce-kv is going to be your fastest option
18:24	hyPiRion	turbofail: gurr. At least one step closer to a solution
18:25	turbofail	yeah. it looks like spark changed the signature of some of their constructors
18:49	wei	does there exist an rpc library (similar to shoreleave-remote) that runs asynchronously over sente?
18:56	dweave	I don’t really understand clojure’s (hickey’s) take on FRP. Basically my understanding is that “we don’t need it because clojure has point in time identities (datastructures)”. But isn’t FRP useful for more than just modeling time? isn’t it about composability?
18:57	dweave	these seem to be orhthoginal concepts, but the general attitude is that frp solves a problem clojure doesn’t have.. Or am i missing something
18:59	justin_smith	dweave: I think there are a few things in clojure that approach the general territory of FRP. core.async, prismatic/plumbing, ztellman/manifold
18:59	justin_smith	though none of those are exactly FRP of course
19:01	justin_smith	dweave: in fact, now that I think of it, the one thing that I think really could be FRP is the audio / control data flow in kunstmusik/pink which has explicit stepped time (because the audio signal processing algorithms it implements all need to be strict about time)
19:01	dweave	hmm
19:02	justin_smith	but that project is not very functional, as clojure code goes (because it needs low latency)
19:02	justin_smith	maybe I should say "not very pure"
19:02	dweave	I guess why is this not something that’s more widespread in clojure tho.. For instance clojurescript Om has no good corollary. I find it a great paradigm in gui programming
19:03	aperiodic	there's also a more-or-less port of ELM using core.async: https://github.com/jamesmacaulay/zelkova
19:03	justin_smith	dweave: well clearly cljs/om use core.async for the pipelining of events / calculations that frp would have
19:03	justin_smith	dweave: but it doesn't have the strict stepping of time that would make it frp
19:03	dweave	yeh
19:04	dweave	i think the difference with om is that ReactJS solves some of that problem
19:05	justin_smith	pink is pull based frp iirc
19:05	dweave	you know longer have to explicitly connect events to UI updates
19:05	justin_smith	(but I would not recommend trying to use pink for web dev at all... it's very specialized for audio synthesis)
19:06	justin_smith	dweave: is the strict time sync actually something you need? because otherwise core.async can surely do the rest
19:07	dweave	i think it is something i need, but let me give u an example and tell me if it qualifies as strict time sync
19:08	dweave	well my examples a little complicated. so i’ll simplify. Say I have a button and I only want some action to take place if I click it twice within a set number of seconds.
19:08	dweave	that’s a problem FRP handles elegantly
19:08	dweave	is that wat u mean by strict time
19:09	justin_smith	dweave: core.async does this nicely if you define debounce (which I swear should totally be built in by now)
19:09	dweave	the problem I’ve found with core.async is it places emphasis on using transducers
19:09	dweave	which u have to bake in when u create the channel
19:09	justin_smith	dweave: no, what I meant was that in frp there is a global model of time (often with a sampling rate and strict propagation semantics) and core.async is a bit looser about this stuff
19:09	dweave	that limits composabliity “down stream” no?
19:09	justin_smith	dweave: how would using a transducer limit composability
19:10	dweave	say i have a channel already
19:10	dweave	i can’t “add” a transducer to it
19:10	justin_smith	dweave: a transducer is compatible with an frp stream processor
19:10	dweave	what is frp stream processor in this context
19:11	justin_smith	dweave: some element that processes your data between a source and sink
19:11	justin_smith	in the abstract sense, anything with both inputs and outputs
19:11	dweave	i see
19:12	justin_smith	dweave: being able to recompute the graph at runtime can be a limitation in cljs (no eval / no compiler in the runtime) but not a limitation of core.async itself
19:12	justin_smith	but recomputing graphs should be a rare event anyway if you care about perf at all
19:12	dweave	if I have a channel i guess i’m wondering how to apply a map function to it
19:13	justin_smith	and in practice you can make a graph that is flexible enough to represent the various kinds of processing you need
19:13	dweave	say it’s being consumed by another component
19:13	justin_smith	dweave: the map function can be provided as an argument to the channel
19:13	dweave	but map is deprecated
19:13	dweave	in favor of transducers
19:13	justin_smith	no, we just use the transducing map now
19:13	justin_smith	it's still map
19:13	dweave	oh
19:13	dweave	what’s that look like?
19:14	dweave	(map ch fn)
19:14	dweave	?
19:14	justin_smith	(chan buffering (map f))
19:14	dweave	and that produces a new channel?
19:14	justin_smith	right
19:15	justin_smith	you can send things to that channel in order to have them processed
19:15	dweave	but what if I already have a channel is what i’m saying
19:15	justin_smith	dweave: then feed that channel into the mapping one
19:15	dweave	just using pipe?
19:16	dweave	(pipe existing-chan (chan buffering (map f)))
19:16	justin_smith	there is also map (as opposed to the depricated map<)
19:16	dweave	and that does something like i just did ^
19:16	dweave	?
19:16	justin_smith	https://clojure.github.io/core.async/#clojure.core.async/map
19:17	dweave	ah yes thank u
19:18	justin_smith	it's too bad core.async isn't as straightforward to demo on this channel as clojure.core is
19:18	justin_smith	it would be cool to have a "show and tell core.async" env for doing demos and establishing what works
19:18	dweave	yeah
19:19	dweave	could that be a lazybot plugin
19:19	justin_smith	yeah, the security would be tricky - there's good reason to restrict threaded / async stuff
19:19	justin_smith	but there's probably a way to do it...
19:19	dweave	true
19:25	kiwitobes	Is there any way to use Swing (or any other window library) if I'm connected to a remote REPL?
19:26	kiwitobes	Trying to open windows complains that the environment is headless (which makes sense) but I can't tell if there's a way to run this part locally
19:26	justin_smith	kiwitobes: if the remote repl was started with the X server display set, the display is running, and it has permissions to access that display (on *nix)
19:26	justin_smith	kiwitobes: you would need to do X11 forwarding, and have an X server running
19:26	justin_smith	or if you use another windowing system - well good luck!
19:26	kiwitobes	justin_smith: Ah, ok, thanks!
19:27	kiwitobes	Yes, I'm using X11
19:27	justin_smith	kiwitobes: you also need a java jre that has all the display stuff (not a headless jre)
19:27	justin_smith	kiwitobes: ssh has an option to do compressed ssh session forwarding
19:27	justin_smith	but there is some config needed, and X over a socket is notoriously hard to use
19:27	justin_smith	as in laggy, it's a fairly noisy protocol
19:28	kiwitobes	Right, I'm thinking I'll have to have a local repl somehow talking to the remote one
19:28	justin_smith	kiwitobes: that would give a much better user experience for sure - you could use some protocol to coordinate between the two processes
19:32	kiwitobes	I looked into using Gorilla REPL, but it doesn't connect to remote REPLs, it has to run its own
19:51	arrdem	what do people like for working with SQL?
19:52	justin_smith	more and more I think sql is the right dsl for doing sql in
19:52	arrdem	so you'd go with yesql
19:52	justin_smith	yeah
19:52	arrdem	hum...
19:52	justin_smith	haven't used it in anger yet though
19:53	justin_smith	just base line frustrations with various attempts to abstract over it
19:53	arrdem	fair. I used ibdknox's simpledb (which is an unbounded in memory map) in Grimoire and it's really just a memory leak that I need to replace with a real datastore.
19:53	arrdem	so looking to see what my options are.
19:54	justin_smith	arrdem: so by "sql" you mean "persistent data store"
19:54	justin_smith	(though many of the good options are sql of course)
19:54	arrdem	by SQL I mean "SQL is something I need to learn anyway and the only set of datastores I have confidence in finding working drivers for"
19:54	justin_smith	:)
19:54	vas	Hi. I'm trying to use compojure and a simple HTML form to write to a database. any hints on how to make my submit button do an action that is caught by my router clj? (=
19:54	arrdem	with all due respect to cbp for his awesome work on bitemyapp/revise it is out of date.
19:55	arrdem	otherwise I'd just use rethinkdb again :P
19:55	tbaldridge	for grimoire, I'd be tempted to use some sort of document db
19:55	tbaldridge	like couchdb
19:56	justin_smith	vas: create a POST route, and point the form at it, and use wrap-params and friends (ring middleware) to turn the request data into a map of data
19:56	arrdem	yeah... since I'm finally caving to using a "real DB" anyway for analytics I may need to rethink the filesystem "datastore" I'm using for the actual documentation data.
19:56	justin_smith	vas: also, in practice, minimize your points of failure - test the route using CURL, then once you like those results, use the request form on a page etc.
19:57	arrdem	the datastore in question is just for storing analytics (for now..)
19:57	justin_smith	vas: nothing more maddening than "everything is broken and I don't know if I fixed either side yet" when you don't have the form or the backend working yet
19:58	vas	justin_smith: ah, that is a great idea. curl ftw. i just read about cemerick/friends today, checking it out now. also, madness is not always a bad thing sips tea at tea party thanks for the data\|code.
20:03	arrdem	tbaldridge: have you used clutch or another couchdb driver?
20:03	tbaldridge	I did a long time ago, but the api is so simple, you can almost use slurp + data.json if you had to
20:04	arrdem	gotchga
20:09	cfleming	So my understanding is that destructuring cannot be used in Clojure deftype/defrecord/reify method implementations, but can in ClojureScript - is that right?
20:10	arrdem	yes IIRC
20:10	tbaldridge	really?
20:10	arrdem	tbaldridge: I've never seen it done in CLJ at least
20:10	tbaldridge	,(reify clojure.lang.IDeref (deref [[x y]]))
20:10	clojurebot	#<UnsupportedOperationException java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: sandbox$eval25$reify__27>
20:10	tbaldridge	interesting....
20:11	Bronsa	yeah deftypes & co in cljs expand into extend-type expressions
20:11	cfleming	Makes sense, since in ClojureScript I guess it desugars down into fns set to JS properties in the end
20:11	Bronsa	cfleming: correct
20:11	tbaldridge	someone should patch clojure...
20:12	cfleming	Bronsa: Ok - so extend-type allows destructuring? Is that true in Clojure too?
20:12	amalloy	tbaldridge: you can destructure just fine in deftype and friends
20:12	amalloy	you just can't use &args
20:12	amalloy	which people sometimes conflate
20:12	cfleming	amalloy: Are you sure about that?
20:12	Bronsa	amalloy: I don't think you are right
20:13	amalloy	i just did it in a reify
20:13	amalloy	(defprotocol Foo (f [this x])) (f (reify Foo (f [this [a b]] (+ a b))) [1 2]) ; 3
20:13	Bronsa	oh well, TIL
20:14	amalloy	same in a deftype
20:14	Bronsa	(inc amalloy)
20:14	lazybot	⇒ 221
20:15	Bronsa	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core_deftype.clj#L63-L65 relevant code in core_deftype for those interested
20:17	cfleming	(inc amalloy)
20:17	lazybot	⇒ 222
20:17	Bronsa	tbaldridge: looks like the exception of your example comes from trying to print the reify
20:17	cfleming	And that's independent of whether it's implementing an interface or a protocol, I guess
20:19	cfleming	So I guess this also means that extend-type and extend-protocol also allow destructuring.
20:19	Bronsa	no doubt about that
20:20	cfleming	Ok, now I'm confused - the examples for extend-type also show it allowing rest params?
20:21	cfleming	Actually, of course, since that ends up as an fn too
20:22	Bronsa	cfleming: http://sprunge.us/TcQT
20:22	Bronsa	weird, but valid usage
20:22	vas	in a very simple attempt to get a POST route working in my router clj i have something like ,(POST "/ptest" [val] (str "the val was : " val)) ... but I keep getting a 403 ferrbidden when using curl -X POST
20:23	cfleming	Huh
20:23	cfleming	Bronsa: Like you say, TIL
20:23	cfleming	Bronsa: I'm starting to think that the grammars I'm developing for Cursive will be pretty useful, this stuff is hard to figure out from doc + examples
20:25	Bronsa	cfleming: a weird thing about that example is, the accepted arities to f are still determined by the declared arities in the defprotocol, even though there's a variadic impl
20:25	Bronsa	e.g. you cannot invoke (f) or (f 1 2 3)
20:26	Bronsa	but I've never seen varargs used in extend-protocol
20:26	cfleming	I guess that makes sense, since the f you invoke is created by the protocol, which looks the implementing f up, right?
20:26	Bronsa	yeah
20:27	justin_smith	vas: maybe try turning off any auth et. until you have the basic functionality
20:29	justin_smith	vas: it can help to add sn outermodt middleware that dumps info before the rest of the code runs
20:29	justin_smith	*outermost
20:32	vas	justin_smith: it's pretty much as barebones as it can be. that is a good idea... it is bizarre because all the GET routines work fine..
20:32	justin_smith	easy to write your own printing middleware, but eg. ring.middleware.logger is an option as well
20:33	vas	justin_smith: thanks for mentioning curl, that is actually life-saving in this circumstance
20:33	amalloy	vas: what happens if you send a GET request for a route that your app doesn't handle at all, like curl http://localhost/dsaffas
20:33	justin_smith	perhaps something like ring-sntiforgery id on by default?
20:34	justin_smith	*antiforgery
20:34	vas	justin_smith: the GETs have a catchall, but the POST returns <h1>invalid anti forgery token</h1> ...
20:35	amalloy	sounds like justin_smith wins the prize
20:35	vas	:)
20:36	rakkar	excuse guys, but do you know where I can get a good clojure .pdf file tutorial? I can see a lot about it in different sites.
20:36	rakkar	just free tuto
20:37	amalloy	i don't understand what you want, rakkar. a tutorial on using pdfs in clojure? a tutorial on clojure, delivered as a pdf...?
20:37	rakkar	to read offline
20:37	rakkar	in my tablet
20:37	rakkar	if I got in my needs
20:37	rakkar	will check some good book before
20:37	rakkar	I have already tried somethings on this language, very impresive.
20:38	vas	justin_smith: so, in short, i need to do sessions in order to be able to POST something? (pardon my nubility)
20:38	arrdem	O'reily will happily sell you a PDF copy of any of the Clojure books...
20:38	rakkar	a lot of books there
20:38	amalloy	chuckle nubility is an actual word, vas, which means something different from "newness"
20:39	vas	amalloy: rofl i just looked it up. haha
20:39	rakkar	many books, what could be the best?
20:39	arrdem	~books
20:39	arrdem	,1
20:39	clojurebot	eval service is offline
20:39	rakkar	like to beginners, or to work with oracle databases
20:40	rakkar	or concurrency
20:40	cfleming	While I'm at it, is it there any restriction on the placement of :as and rest params in parameter lists and destructuring?
20:40	cfleming	By convention they're always last, but is that required?
20:41	cfleming	,(fn [a & b c] (+ a b c))
20:41	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unexpected parameter, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
20:41	cfleming	,(fn [a b & c] (+ a b c))
20:41	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval49$fn__50 sandbox$eval49$fn__50@32529bfc>
20:41	cfleming	,(fn [[a b & c]] (+ a b c))
20:41	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval75$fn__77 sandbox$eval75$fn__77@6f35ec84>
20:41	cfleming	,(fn [[a & b c]] (+ a b c))
20:41	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.Exception: Unsupported binding form, only :as can follow & parameter, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_FILE:0:0)>
20:42	cfleming	Wow, that's a helpful error messge
20:42	cfleming	message
20:42	cfleming	,(fn [[a b & c :as d]] (+ a b c))
20:42	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval129$fn__131 sandbox$eval129$fn__131@65d0c5d2>
20:42	cfleming	,(fn [[a b :as c & d]] (+ a b c))
20:42	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval157$fn__159 sandbox$eval157$fn__159@56cbdfca>
20:42	cfleming	,(fn [[a :as b c & d]] (+ a b c))
20:42	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: c in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
20:43	cfleming	Interesting
20:44	cfleming	,(fn [[:or {b 10} a :as b & c]] (+ a b c))
20:44	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: c in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
20:44	Bronsa	cfleming: :as and :or go after fixed & varargs
20:45	cfleming	Bronsa: (fn [[a b :as c & d]] (+ a b c)) worked, or at least compiled - whether the fn does the right thing is another question
20:46	Bronsa	cfleming: & d is just ignored there
20:46	Bronsa	,(fn [[a b :as c & d]] d)
20:46	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: d in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
20:46	cfleming	,(fn [[a b :as c & d]] (+ a b c d))
20:46	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: d in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
20:46	cfleming	I see
20:46	cfleming	Nice, thanks
20:46	cfleming	(inc Bronsa)
20:46	lazybot	⇒ 91
20:47	amalloy	whoa what, it's ignored, not an error?
20:47	cfleming	Looks like it
20:47	cfleming	This is why we should be using grammars to parse our forms
20:48	Bronsa	cfleming: no why, c.c/destructure, c.c/for and c.c/doseq are so nice to read :P
20:48	cfleming	This, and many other reasons
20:48	amalloy	well. it's a bit tricky, because you either have to do what's currently done, and have the reader just accept lists and vectors and so on
20:48	amalloy	or else you have to adjust the grammar every time you write a macro
20:48	justin_smith	vas: was walking to the clojerks meetup. it will suffice to provide the token ring generates when serving the page with the form, or turn off the middleware
20:49	cfleming	amalloy: I define grammars for each individual form
20:49	amalloy	cfleming: and user-supplied macros?
20:49	cfleming	amalloy: They'll be provided by an extension api
20:49	justin_smith	vas: actually the session may be used to track token validity...
20:49	cfleming	Words can't express how much better doing that made my life
20:49	amalloy	huh? it sounds like you're saying i have to write an intellij extension to write a clojure macro, but that can't be what you mean
20:50	cfleming	Not quite. You have to write a Cursive extension if you want support in Cursive for your macro.
20:50	amalloy	where support in cursive means...
20:51	cfleming	But "write an extension" makes it sound like more work than it is - it's pretty simple
20:51	cfleming	Having your symbol resolution work, basically.
20:51	cfleming	Otherwise there's no way for Cursive to see inside macros to see which symbols they define.
20:51	vas	justin_smith: i've always wanted to visit oregon... thanks for your help. i will investigate how to turn it off for now... although eventually CSRF protection will be +
20:53	cfleming	amalloy: But the extension mechanism is only required in Cursive since I need to support all macros. For a normal lib that needs to parse its own macros, it can be totally self-contained.
20:53	justin_smith	vas: the rradme looks quite straightforward https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring-anti-forgery
20:54	cfleming	amalloy: With macros it's even easier than what I do in Cursive, since you know what the form should look like, and you have &form to parse, so your first step can always be (let [parsed (p/parse &form my-grammar))
20:55	cfleming	The parser combinators for a PEG parser are about a page of code, and took an afternoon to write.
20:55	amalloy	well, my perspective on this is that it sounds absurdly over-formal but i could believe i might be wrong
20:56	cfleming	Again, it sounds more formal than it feels when you're using it.
21:01	arrdem	I will be.. should be fun =D
21:02	turbofail	yeah. it's just a significant amount of money is all
21:02	turbofail	ideally i would have gone last year when it was in SF
21:03	turbofail	then i could have at least avoided the hotel and plane ticket
21:07	cfleming	amalloy_: Here's an example: https://www.refheap.com/96978 is the grammar for deftype. I can then parse it like this: https://www.refheap.com/96980
21:09	turbofail	i still have nightmares about the c.c/for implementation
21:09	cfleming	amalloy_: (slightly edited to remove some Cursive-specific stuff, but that's the idea)
21:10	cfleming	turbofail: https://www.refheap.com/96981 :-)
21:10	arrdem	(inc cfleming)
21:10	lazybot	⇒ 10
21:10	turbofail	though i guess the nasty part of `for''s implementation isn't really the parsing of it, just the things it does to handle chunked seqs and things
21:11	cfleming	turbofail: Sure, although the parsing is also pretty hairy. Check out ns too for a bundle of laughs.
21:12	cfleming	The other nice thing about this method is that with some small extensions you can get really nice error messages like "Expecting symbol but found vector when parsing let binding vector" rather than "Clojure compiler couldn't convert ISeq to char fuckyou"
21:13	arrdem	It's A Feature™
21:14	cfleming	And you don't get weird corners like rest params being ignored if they come after :as and :or clauses just because.
21:14	cfleming	Anyway, I'll shut up now. tldr - this is fantastic, everyone should do it.
21:16	arrdem	I'll be looking out for CIDER support :P
21:20	arrdem	one so motivated could probably package this up as polite-core-macros or something and just alter! all the clojure.core/* macros to add nice arg parser wrappers...
21:22	cfleming	That's sort of similar to what dynalint does, I guess, although that's more dynamic checks more along the lines of :pre and :post I think
21:26	stevenleeg	quick question
21:26	stevenleeg	how can I get access to pow and sqrt?
21:26	arrdem	half considered answer
21:27	stevenleeg	http://clojure.github.io/clojure-contrib/math-api.html is deprecated apparently?
21:27	arrdem	&(Math/sqrt 4)
21:27	lazybot	⇒ 2.0
21:27	stevenleeg	arrdem: hurrr, got it
21:27	stevenleeg	thanks
21:27	stevenleeg	haha
21:27	arrdem	stevenleeg: it's interop to java.lang.Math. I don't like it and think we should have real math fns but we don't.
21:28	arrdem	good numerics are hard.
21:28	arrdem	bad numerics are easy.
21:28	stevenleeg	arrdem: what is http://clojure.github.io/algo.generic/clojure.algo.generic.math-functions-api.html
21:28	stevenleeg	I saw that and it looks like real math fns in clj
21:29	stevenleeg	but I couldn't do (use clojure.algo.generic.math-functions)
21:29	arrdem	stevenleeg: algo.generic is a solid math fn suite implimented as multimethods, which are fine for light/medium weight use but are too slow to be called "high performance".
21:29	arrdem	$google arrdem meajure
21:29	lazybot	[arrdem/meajure · GitHub] https://github.com/arrdem/meajure
21:30	arrdem	^ project of mine extending algo.generic to do math on numbers with units.
21:34	sdegutis	Has there been any work done to separate the ClojureScript compiler from the JVM?
21:38	gfredericks	sdegutis: I'm not sure what this means: https://twitter.com/swannodette/status/559013608232062977
21:40	cfleming	sdegutis:https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/wiki/Bootstrapping-the-Compiler
21:40	sdegutis	Is help welcome?
22:33	julianleviston	,"Just checking quotes - disregard"
22:33	clojurebot	"Just checking quotes - disregard"
22:33	julianleviston	yay
22:44	gfredericks	julianleviston: clojurebot does PMs
22:45	julianleviston	gfredericks: ah ok… I can't even remember how to do PMs… it's been about 15 years since I used one. lol
22:45	julianleviston	gfredericks: /msg ?
22:45	julianleviston	yep. sweet! haha go memory, go!
22:45	gfredericks	I always start with /query to minimize the chance of accidentally saying something publicly
22:46	gfredericks	I don't want anybody to know the things I say to clojurebot in private
22:46	julianleviston	gfredericks: lol… there's some poetry in there somewhere ;-)