#clojure – 2015-01-30

2015-01-30

01:59	irctc	Hello everyone
01:59	rhg135	Hi
02:00	irctc	I'm having an issue with destructuring
02:01	irctc	I defn a function with parameter-vector : [[firstPerson secondPerson] peopleVec]
02:01	irctc	when I try to pass in the peopleVec vector - REPL tells that I've passed too few parameters?
02:01	amalloy	your function takes two arguments
02:02	amalloy	the second is called peopleVec, and the second is destructured as [firstPerson secondPerson]
02:02	amalloy	er, the first is destructured
02:02	irctc	I understood that [firstPerson secondPerson] will be bound to the contents of peopleVec
02:03	irctc	therefore [firstPerson secondPerson] does not count as a parameter?
02:04	rhg135	:as
02:07	ianhedoesit	,(defn foo [[fp sp] pv] (prn fp sp pv))
02:07	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foo
02:07	ianhedoesit	,(foo [:first :second] :person)
02:07	clojurebot	:first :second :person\n
02:08	amalloy	shredder supply OP
02:09	amalloy	oops, wrong wnidow
02:09	ianhedoesit	,(defn bar [[fp sp :as pv]] (prn fp sp pv))
02:09	clojurebot	#'sandbox/bar
02:09	ianhedoesit	,(bar [:first :second])
02:09	clojurebot	:first :second [:first :second]\n
02:09	amalloy	the dangers of connecting to twitch chat via irc i guess
02:09	ianhedoesit	irctc: does the above help?
02:10	irctc	ianhedoesit: :as binds the entire passed-in vector
02:11	ianhedoesit	yes, in the case of `bar`, `pv` is the name bound to `[fp sp]` (I think I said that correctly)
02:11	irctc	what I was hoping is selective binding like all the examples provide using let eg. (let [x y] [1 2])
02:13	irctc	correction: (let [[x y] [1 2]])
02:14	irctc	in my case I made the [1 2] vector a parameter of a function - I guess this not be the way function parameters work
02:15	ianhedoesit	I'm not smart enough to see the obvious is there is something obvious I'm missing, so mabe a more specific example would help?
02:15	amalloy	irctc: so, here is the thing. things in clojure which could be names can instead be destructured
02:15	amalloy	the first half of a let-binding can be a name, so you can destructure it
02:16	amalloy	each argument to a function could be a name, so you can destructure it
02:16	amalloy	if you destructure a thing, you don't also name it
02:18	irctc	thx amalloy - let me process this for a moment(eg. work through an example)
02:27	irctc	got: (defn destruct-this-3 [[fp sp]] (println fp sp)) - my problem was to equate "let" and "defn" destructuring
02:28	irctc	In the case of a defn the second vector in let eg. [[x y] [1 2]] -- is implicit in the parameter one passes-in
02:29	irctc	amalloy: your statement make perfect sense now - many thanks
02:29	hellofunk	amalloy: you say "if you destructure a thing, you don't also name it" but what about :as ?
02:33	amalloy	that's a way to destructure it though
02:33	amalloy	it's the way of destructuring which says, give this thing a name
02:34	hellofunk	i see, i follow, i understan' my G, i feel you!
02:56	irctc	anyone else using "pidgin" as irc client? what settings are you using, please?- trying to connect to bear.freenode.net is timing out for me
02:58	ianhedoesit	irctc: is there any reason you need to connect to bear.freenode.net? irc.freenode.net is a load balancer and any channel on the freenode network will work when connecting to any specific server, I believe.
02:58	irctc	ianhedoesit: only reason is that I couldn't find #clojure
02:59	irctc	will try again...
02:59	ianhedoesit	but you're on #clojure!
02:59	seancorfield	I only connect to irc.freenode.net and I'm here :)
02:59	irctc	ianhedoesit: through the web interface
03:00	ianhedoesit	ah, I see that now. may I ask why you wanted bear.freenode.net specifically?
03:00	irctc	in the web interface it shows me connected to that server
03:01	ianhedoesit	ah
03:02	ianhedoesit	I can't possibly imagine how this could change anything, but try chat.freenode.net maybe?
03:03	Kir	ianhedoesit: I'm in thanks - it did not show in the list - I had to connect manually
03:04	ianhedoesit	I haven't used Pidgin in years, but I think I know what you mean. it lists a number of networks like EFNet and whatnot but no freenode or something?
03:06	Kir	not quite: once connect to irc.freenote.net one get pull a list of all available rooms - searching for clojure in this list did not find this room
03:06	Kir	correction:..one can*
03:07	Kir	ianhedoesit: thanks all the same :)
03:07	ianhedoesit	oh, okay. well I don't know what I did but I'm glad you're not using an awful web interface anymore.
03:07	ianhedoesit	still, you could do better than pidgin.
03:07	ianhedoesit	:)
03:08	Kir	I'm open to suggestion?
03:09	ianhedoesit	Kir: *nix or Windows?
03:10	Kir	I use both
03:10	Kir	currently on windows
03:12	ianhedoesit	it seems like a lot of people are rather fond of Hexchat, especially those who use both Windows and some flavor of Linux since it's cross-platform
03:12	fairuz	I use pidgin both in windows and linux
03:12	fairuz	quite happy with it
03:12	ianhedoesit	it's also open source, which is nice.
03:13	ianhedoesit	Kir: listen to fairuz if you wish! I cannot speak for the usability of Pidgin today - like I said it's been years since I've used it.
03:14	ianhedoesit	if you want to make your friends think you're a hacker, use irssi like me! people will think you know far more than you actually do!
03:14	fairuz	:)
03:14	fairuz	agree ^
03:15	rhg135	Telnet ftw
03:15	Kir	lol
03:16	daniel__	ianhedoesit: i use irssi tooo
03:17	daniel__	and i3 window manager
03:17	ianhedoesit	"what are you doing?" "I am establishing an ssh connection to my vps in SF with an attached tmux session to talk to some chans on irc about clj"
03:17	ianhedoesit	"so you're hacking?"
03:17	fairuz	"of course"
03:17	ianhedoesit	daniel__: I have no wm. I'm so hip and retro.
03:19	daniel__	ianhedoesit: i boot straight into emacs
03:19	ianhedoesit	lol
03:19	rhg135	I flashed it to my bios
03:25	Kir	ianhedoesit: hexchat is looking like it will replace pidgin - only think I'm missing is the ability to stop logging when users login/logoff?
03:25	Kir	thing*
03:28	ianhedoesit	Kir: in irssi I just /ignore #clojure: JOINS PARTS QUITS MODES TOPICS
03:28	ianhedoesit	well, /ignore #clojure JOINS PARTS QUITS MODES TOPICS
03:28	ianhedoesit	without the :
03:28	ianhedoesit	but that might not work in hexchat, I don't know
03:28	Kir	Oh, pardon, didn't notice your not using it
03:28	rhg135	Right click the channel in the menu
03:29	Kir	you're*
03:30	ianhedoesit	Kir: http://wiki.xkcd.com/irc/Hide_join_part_messages#HexChat
03:31	Kir	thx ianhedoesit
03:32	ianhedoesit	:)
03:36	daniel__	i do /ignore ianhedoesit
03:48	ianhedoesit	daniel__ no
03:48	ianhedoesit	why me
03:48	daniel__	just kidding ianhedoesit :)
03:49	ianhedoesit	how can I know you're actually replying to me if you ignored me!
03:51	daniel__	ianhedoesit: yes, i hacked irssi to reply on my behalf
03:51	daniel__	to trick you
03:52	ianhedoesit	you did say you boot straight into emacs, so I'm inclined to believe you.
03:53	daniel__	you're talking to ELIZA
03:55	ianhedoesit	I feel much more at home knowing that.
04:16	sm0ke	hello i want to ^:replace a bool property in lein. but meta cant be applied to bools i think
04:16	sm0ke	,^:replace true
04:16	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Metadata can only be applied to IMetas>
04:16	ianhedoesit	,^:replace [true]
04:16	clojurebot	[true]
04:17	sm0ke	ianhedoesit: what about false?
04:17	ianhedoesit	sm0ke: I was just dealing with that for something. it's not a very elegant solution since you need to mess with how you deal with it, but until someone gives a better answer that seems okay?
04:18	ianhedoesit	sm0ke: what do you mean? the point is that all the containers can have metadata (I think?)
04:18	sm0ke	ianhedoesit: no, its just not about having metadata somehow
04:18	ianhedoesit	so just wrapping anything in a vector or list or whatever will allow it to have metadata
04:19	ianhedoesit	I must be misunderstanding what you're asking
04:19	sm0ke	ianhedoesit: the problem is ^:replace false is like saying ovrrite this property value with a false
04:19	sm0ke	so i can just say ^:replace [false] because ##(true? [false])
04:19	lazybot	⇒ false
04:20	sm0ke	lol what
04:20	sm0ke	,(doc true?)
04:20	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns true if x is the value true, false otherwise."
04:20	ianhedoesit	sm0ke: any vector is truthy
04:20	ianhedoesit	only nil and false are falsy
04:20	ianhedoesit	,(true? 0)
04:20	clojurebot	false
04:20	ianhedoesit	oh
04:20	ianhedoesit	and 0
04:20	sm0ke	ah
04:20	sm0ke	ianhedoesit: yes exactly my point
04:20	ianhedoesit	,(true? [])
04:20	clojurebot	false
04:20	ianhedoesit	oh
04:20	ianhedoesit	wow
04:20	ianhedoesit	I was wrong
04:20	sm0ke	ianhedoesit: no it just checks for `true` literally
04:20	ianhedoesit	oh
04:20	sm0ke	not logically
04:21	ianhedoesit	:D
04:21	ianhedoesit	well I don't know much of anything about nothing so I'm just gonna be quiet about what you're doing so as to not make things worse.
04:21	sm0ke	,(when [false] "This cant be true!")
04:21	clojurebot	"This cant be true!"
04:22	sm0ke	its always nice to get another set of eyes though
04:22	ianhedoesit	Raynes: I'm making something similar to tentacles but for something other than the GitHub API - I've been using some of tentacles.core as a learning tool for a great way of doing api calls and I hope you don't mind me using a couple functions as starting points. obviously not just copying it, but I've been learning a lot from your api-call and related functions and can't imagine any better sort of structure for something like that.
04:22	TEttinger	,(when 0 "this can't be true!")
04:22	clojurebot	"this can't be true!"
04:22	ianhedoesit	TEttinger: this is the place where I think I was right (only false and nil are falsy)
04:23	TEttinger	yes
04:23	ianhedoesit	,(if [] true false)
04:23	clojurebot	true
04:24	sm0ke	this is very basic there must be some trick for this
04:24	sm0ke	many lein properties are boolean
04:24	sm0ke	and they heavily use metadata too
04:25	ianhedoesit	sm0ke: because I don't fully understand but I want to, what exactly are you talking about? I don't have a very good understanding of how lein works.
04:27	sm0ke	ianhedoesit: you can have lein profiles with confilicting data e.g. profile1 says :aot true while profile2 says :aot false, now i want to give one profile precendence for replacing the others
04:28	sm0ke	so if you are doing lein with-profile +pf1,+pf2 what would :aot be?
04:29	ianhedoesit	I have no idea. I didn't know you could target multiple profiles at the same time like that. I've only done like `lein with-profile test`
04:31	ianhedoesit	is the project.clj file read just like any other clojure file? as in can you have arbitrary evaluations in the file? or is there a bit of magic done by lein?
04:32	sm0ke	i dont know internals of lein, but i guess it would be a `read-string`, defproject is a macro afterwall
04:32	sm0ke	its a regular clojure file
04:33	ianhedoesit	hm, right.
04:33	sm0ke	you can actually put (println "hello") before (defproject..) and it would be printed for every lein task
04:33	sm0ke	you do pretty fancy things with it
04:33	sm0ke	you can*
04:34	sm0ke	its kind of awesome to have a programmable build file :D
04:35	ianhedoesit	have you tried boot?
04:36	sm0ke	no, i am kind of very amazed with lein itself
04:37	sm0ke	its too overwhelming for me
04:37	ianhedoesit	I haven't tried Boot, and I'm obviously a novice lein user, but the people who say anything about boot tend to make it seem magical.
04:38	sm0ke	magic is good but stability and features are biggest factors imo
04:38	sm0ke	i will read the rationale behind boot some day though
04:40	nacon	Anyone having experience with clojure.java.jdbc and postgres' new json/jsonb types? Especially the writing/reading in combination with clojure.data.json. It seems I have to create a PGobject myself and set the type and value..
04:40	ianhedoesit	I was trying to think of a word better than magical. I wasn't trying to say it did a bunch of non-obvious magic or anything - from my understanding it's the opposite, which I enjoy.
04:44	mavbozo	nacon: have you tried https://github.com/remodoy/clj-postgresql ? it seems like they have automatic json conversion
04:45	nacon	mavbozo: no I'm using the clojure.java.jdbc api right now -- but might give this a try, thanks!
04:54	slipset	I'm just starting out with https://github.com/krisajenkins/yesql
04:54	slipset	so you can write the sql queries as select foo from bar where qux = :qix
04:55	slipset	but when calling the query, I haven't found a way to pass the params to the query in a named fashion.
04:55	slipset	eg, I'd like to do (query-quxes db {:qix "lols"})
04:55	slipset	is that possible?
04:56	slipset	for this example it's not so important, but when having multiple params, I'd rather not remember their order.
04:57	slipset	https://github.com/krisajenkins/yesql/issues/8
04:57	ianhedoesit	slipset: what do you mean remember there order?
04:58	slipset	well, if I have a query like "select * from foo where bar = :bar and qix = :qix"
04:58	slipset	I need to pass the arguments in order when I issue the query
04:59	slipset	(foos-and-bars db "value for bar" "value for qix")
05:01	ianhedoesit	slipset: it looks like that's been fixed since September, though?
05:01	ianhedoesit	https://github.com/krisajenkins/yesql/releases/tag/v0.5.0-beta1
05:01	slipset	Yeps, but not in the non-beta version I guess which is 0.4.0
05:02	ianhedoesit	I was confused because I've used yesql for a couple things and I pass around maps just fine.
05:02	ianhedoesit	I'm using 0.5.0-rc1
05:02	slipset	but yes, I'll just upgrade to 0.5.0-rc1 and check it out
05:02	ianhedoesit	there's also rc2 as of a week ago, I didn't realize.
05:06	slipset	ianhedoesit: it worked, thanks!
05:06	ianhedoesit	slipset: yup, no problem.
05:06	slipset	ianhedoesit: so if I have a query "select foo from bar" and issue it using yesql, I'll receive something like this:
05:07	slipset	[{:foo "value1"} {:foo "value2"}]
05:08	ianhedoesit	I believe so, yes.
05:09	ianhedoesit	I mean I don't know if it's a vector or what container it is, but that shouldn't really matter.
05:09	slipset	(inc ianhedoesit)
05:09	lazybot	⇒ 1
05:10	ianhedoesit	but for example, (first (query/select-all)) => {:id 1 :foo "bar"}
05:11	ianhedoesit	that is a working test.
05:11	slipset	thanks
05:11	ianhedoesit	also, hey thanks! :) my first inc, whatever that means.
05:12	slipset	I have no idea, I just see that people get inc'ed whenever they seem to deserve it :)
05:12	slipset	(karma ianhedoesit)
05:13	slipset	https://github.com/Raynes/lazybot/wiki/Commands
05:13	slipset	lazybot doesn't seem to respond well to karma queries
05:16	ianhedoesit	yeah, I was just looking at the source.
05:21	skratl0x1C	is it possible to model an undirected immutable graph, without duplicating the data? ie. without having each vertex in the structure more than once?
05:24	clgv	skratl0x1C: depends what you do not want to replicate. you can identify the vertex via an integer id and then use either an adjacency matrix or an edge list to represent existing edges
05:24	clgv	skratl0x1C: then you'd keep the data separate so that you can look up the data via the id
05:25	skratl0x1C	clgv: aha, so I should give them IDs and store the adjacency data separate from the vertex/edge data?
05:26	ianhedoesit	(identity slipset)
05:26	lazybot	slipset has karma 0.
05:26	ianhedoesit	(identity ianhedoesit)
05:26	lazybot	ianhedoesit has karma 1.
05:26	slipset	:)
05:26	slipset	was just RTFS'ing myself :)
05:27	ianhedoesit	(inc slipset)
05:27	lazybot	⇒ 1
05:27	slipset	:)
05:27	ianhedoesit	for reading source!
05:27	slipset	everybody lies, except the source
05:28	slipset	given, of course, that the source is not self-modifying
05:28	clgv	skratl0x1C: yes, that's the common way in most graph algorithms
05:29	ianhedoesit	I'm curious as to why the README points to the wiki on the flatland fork when that one isn't being updated or mirroring Raynes' repository
05:29	sm0ke	clgv: hello, :classifiers may be of interest to you
05:30	slipset	ianhedoesit: at least now the documentation is more correct
05:30	slipset	https://github.com/Raynes/lazybot/wiki/Commands
05:30	clgv	sm0ke: what?
05:31	sm0ke	clgv: about the test thing which i was asking yesterday
05:31	ianhedoesit	slipset: neat! :)
05:31	sm0ke	i though it might be of interest
05:31	clgv	sm0ke: ah ok
05:32	sm0ke	clgv: you can have a :classifiers {:tests {:source ^:replace []}}
05:32	sm0ke	in lein and it will install the test sources with `tests` classifier in maven
05:32	sm0ke	:D win win!
05:32	sm0ke	its pretty cryptic there are no docs for it
05:33	hyPiRion	sm0ke: oh dang, really? We should fix that
05:33	sm0ke	i am thinking of sending a pr to lein for this
05:33	sm0ke	hyPiRion: i have a issue for it
05:33	sm0ke	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/1589
05:33	hyPiRion	oh
05:33	sm0ke	will send a PR, you can also do :classifiers {:foo :foo}
05:34	sm0ke	and it will pick up the :foo profile
05:34	slipset	hyPiRion: http://2015.flatmap.no/
05:34	sm0ke	its pretty neat hugo duncan guy committed this
05:34	slipset	;)
05:34	hyPiRion	sm0ke: I'd totally send out stickers for that PR
05:34	sm0ke	:D i want i want
05:35	ianhedoesit	hyPiRion: you have stickers?
05:35	sm0ke	hyPiRion: you will send me a sticker for a doc pr ?
05:35	sm0ke	wow let me add that right now
05:35	hyPiRion	ianhedoesit: yeah
05:35	ianhedoesit	:O
05:36	ianhedoesit	I've never had more incentive to learn a tool and contribute to it than right now.
05:36	hyPiRion	sm0ke: of course, any accepted PR gives you rights to a sticker
05:37	sm0ke	nice
05:37	hyPiRion	ianhedoesit: haha, we should probably emphasize it a bit more
05:37	hyPiRion	for some reason many people still doesn't know about the stickers
05:38	ianhedoesit	I do remember seeing it when I first read the leiningen page I think. to be fair, it is the very last sentence on the page apart from the footer.
05:39	Glenjamin	hrm, damn - i could have sworn i had a leiningen commit
05:39	hyPiRion	slipset: I want to wait a tiny bit before submitting, as I believe I have a new persistent data structure brewing. (But I need to prove some property first)
05:40	hyPiRion	I think that might be interesting to speak about, along with the pvec.
05:41	ianhedoesit	https://twitter.com/technomancy/status/21632759649
05:42	ianhedoesit	"10 months old and 41 contributors"
05:44	tomjack	pvec?
05:44	hyPiRion	tomjack: persistent vector
05:44	hyPiRion	It's so long to write
05:45	tomjack	ah
05:45	ianhedoesit	hypirion.com/musings/understanding-persistent-vector-pt-1
05:45	ianhedoesit	hyPiRion: that?
05:45	hyPiRion	ianhedoesit: yup
06:16	hellofunk	anyone in here got an emacs erc setup that only shows direct mentions in the mode line, and not all other channel activity? i've been trying to figure this out for days. #emacs guys haven't had much to offer
06:19	dysfun_	emacs fanboy as i am, i use irssi
06:51	luxbock	,(let [[:a :b & :rest] [1 2 3 4]] [a b rest])
06:51	clojurebot	[1 2 (3 4)]
06:52	luxbock	o_O
06:52	luxbock	is there a use case for this?
06:54	Glenjamin	well, that's odd
06:55	Bronsa	it works as an accident since 1.6
06:59	luxbock	Bronsa: do you know why the (keyword? b) clause is needed in the 1.6+ clojure.core/destructuring?
06:59	luxbock	I'm working on something destructuring related and was puzzled by it when reading the source
07:00	Bronsa	,(let [{:keys [::foo]} {::foo 1}] foo)
07:00	clojurebot	1
07:00	Bronsa	luxbock: ^ to allow support for destructuring namespaced keywords
07:00	luxbock	oh
07:01	luxbock	(inc Bronsa)
07:01	lazybot	⇒ 89
07:02	hellofunk	(set! Bronsa (* Bronsa Bronsa))
07:08	RoccoD	Hi, is this also the channel to ask about clojurescript ?
07:10	hipsterslapfight	RoccoD: #clojurescript
07:10	RoccoD	oeps. sorry, thanks
07:16	kitallis	what would be the easiest way to search within a list of vectors like (["a" "val"] ["b" "val"]) for the value of a specific key like "b"?
07:17	Bronsa	,((into {} '(["a" "val"] ["b" "val"])) "b")
07:17	clojurebot	"val"
07:19	hyPiRion	,(first (for [[k v] '(["a" "val"] ["b" "val"]) :where (= k "b")] v))
07:19	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Invalid 'for' keyword :where, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_FILE:0:0)>
07:19	Bronsa	s/where/when
07:19	hyPiRion	yesh
07:19	kitallis	cool
07:19	hyPiRion	I do that mistake all the time :(
07:20	expez	does `lein capsule` work or is it extremely alpha?
08:27	justin_smith	expez: funny, it looks like new code got pushed to that repo about 30 minutes after you asked that. Not that this is an answer to your question :)
08:27	expez	justin_smith: yeah I submitted a minor bugfix
08:27	justin_smith	ahh, OK
08:28	expez	justin_smith: I'm trying to get it to package it refactor-nrepl so we don't pollute the user's classpath with tooling related dependencies.
08:28	expez	I think the generated capsule is OK now, but it fails to register the middleware
08:37	justin_smith	interesting
08:42	jlamain	if i have a defrecord "rec" and I do an assoc on it (assoc rec :x 0) i get a new record. But if i have records containing records, if i change the inner record, does the outer record change ? or does it contain the old value ? I have a bit of a hard time coming from a c++/javascript background ;-)
08:43	justin_smith	jlamain: records do not change
08:43	justin_smith	jlamain: assoc creates a new record
08:44	justin_smith	jlamain: so to update a record inside a record, you are creating new versions of both
08:44	justin_smith	jlamain: update-in makes this easy
08:44	justin_smith	,(update-in {:a {:b 1}} [:a :b] inc)
08:44	clojurebot	{:a {:b 2}}
08:44	justin_smith	jlamain: note how really we only updated the inner hash-map
08:45	justin_smith	jlamain: but technically two new hash-maps were created
08:46	justin_smith	and yes, the original {:a {:b 1}}, if we still had it around, is unmodified (in this case it was garbage collected because we have no pointer to it)
08:46	jlamain	thanks justin. But now the question. If i have a record implementing a protocol. A function in this protocol needs to add something to the record. Can the function add something to "this" ? if so how is this working for the upper records. if not, what is the clojure way to do suys things?
08:47	justin_smith	jlamain: the protocol method would be able to return a modified version of "this", it is up to the caller to use it or not, the original is unmodified
08:48	justin_smith	jlamain: the behavior of records is identical to the behavior of hash-maps in most ways, including this one
08:49	justin_smith	jlamain: in fact, I would use update-in in order to update the record via its protocol method, if the record were inside another one
08:52	jlamain	justin_smith: thx. Then i'm completely out of ideas how to complete implementing somethink like a UI dsl like in my gist: https://gist.github.com/jlamain/478c6978816b71257930. basically I have functions creating records. (layer, rectangle). But if some aotm changes i need to update some internal fields in a record. This means i should update all higher records also ? Please do not laugh too hard about my first clojure(script)
08:53	justin_smith	jlamain: the key is that anything modified needs to be passed into the modifying function, and also returned from it
08:54	justin_smith	if you need to do a series of updates, you likely will end up doing a chain of update-in operations, inside a swap! call if it must be an atom
08:54	Glenjamin	i quite like using (->) for DLS
08:54	Glenjamin	DSLs even
08:54	justin_smith	Glenjamin: yes, -> / ->> are definitely called for when doing multiple updates within one nested data structure
08:56	justin_smith	jlamain: you could simplify the code to render-translated as follows: new-translate (-> translate (update-in [:x] + x) (update-in [:y] + y))
08:57	justin_smith	that chains both the updates into one logical operation, without needing to bind the individual new values
08:57	SagiCZ	jlamain: do you really need that protocol? maybe you could just use hash-maps?
08:57	justin_smith	jlamain: also, do blocks are not needed in let bodies
08:59	perplexa	what would i do if i have [1 2 3 4 0 5 6] and want [1 2 3 4 5 6]? ie. drop the 5th item from the vector
08:59	octatone	Hello
08:59	octatone	I am a clojure noob, is there an easy way to log to repo from Midgje auto test in my tests?
08:59	SagiCZ	perplexa: you could join two subvectors.. but no there is no core function that does that
08:59	justin_smith	perplexa: create a new vector, if you need to do this alot, don't use a vector, dropping from the middle is not efficient
08:59	octatone	^repl
09:00	perplexa	nah, i'm just doing this to modify values for the tests ;x
09:00	perplexa	i reuse intermediate results
09:00	perplexa	but i need to drop a row
09:00	octatone	midje seems to just pr-str
09:00	jackhill	justin_smith: what would you use if you needed to do it a lot?
09:01	Glenjamin	a hash-map
09:01	justin_smith	jackhill: finger-tree
09:01	octatone	seems to just eat it
09:01	jlamain	SagiCZ: you mean operating over hash maps using functions ? No records anymore ?
09:01	justin_smith	jackhill: or rrb
09:01	hyPiRion	jackhill: RRB-tree. core.rrb-vector. But it sort of depends on how large they are
09:01	hyPiRion	for less than 1000 elts it's probably not worth the effort.
09:01	SagiCZ	jlamain: yeah.. but maybe this is easier.. in similar code of mine i used regular hash-maps with :type keyword and multimethods that dispatch on the :type.. very powerful and easy to extend
09:01	jlamain	justin_smith: thanks for the improvements
09:02	jackhill	justin_smith, hyPiRion: awesome, thanks. I was just curious what was out there
09:02	justin_smith	jlamain: records and hash-maps are behaviorally identical, except with records you have optimized default field lookup, and the possibility of protocols instead of functions (also potentially an optimization)
09:05	octatone	I just want to log to repl from midje autotest ... is this possible? It seems that pr-str is just eaten
09:05	justin_smith	octatone: what do you think pr-str does?
09:05	octatone	prints ?
09:05	justin_smith	no, it creates the string that would be printed if you had printed
09:06	justin_smith	you just want println
09:06	justin_smith	,(pr-str :a)
09:06	clojurebot	":a"
09:06	justin_smith	,(do (pr-str :a) nil)
09:06	clojurebot	nil
09:06	justin_smith	no printing
09:06	hyPiRion	,(prn pr)
09:06	clojurebot	#<core$pr clojure.core$pr@38950703>\n
09:06	hyPiRion	yayy
09:06	octatone	thanks
09:07	jlamain	oke. thx. i'll try to do with multimethod than. But i'm still confused about the propagation of updated records/hashmaps to upper values. So the multimethod returns a new hashmap when updated and the the upper hashmap does an assoc. hmm. Quite hard embedded engineer normally doing c/c++/javascript ;-) haha
09:09	justin_smith	jlamain: but the update/assoc can be a single operation thanks to update-in - the thing to remember is that you can't update something if you don't return it to your caller
09:10	justin_smith	jlamain: and what eventually becomes clear is that this restriction elimanates many points of failure - you know that any part of your code without mutation can only update what it returns
09:14	perplexa	justin_smith: using (vec (map #(vec (concat (subvec % 0 7) (subvec % 8 11))) aqft/expected-views)) but it is very ugly ;D
09:14	perplexa	it gets rid of the 8th item, tho. so it's ok ;p
09:15	justin_smith	(vec (map ...)) is (mapv ...)
09:15	perplexa	oh right :) thanks!
09:16	hyPiRion	also, do #(into (subvec % 0 7) (subvec % 8 11)) instead
09:16	hyPiRion	more efficient
09:16	justin_smith	(inc hyPiRion)
09:16	lazybot	⇒ 61
09:18	jlamain	justin_smith: so if i do a (update-in map [:l1 :l2 :l3 :l4 :x] 500) everything is updated updated "four levels" deep.
09:18	justin_smith	well 500 isn't a valid arg to update-in, and that's 5 levels :)
09:18	justin_smith	update-in needs an updating function, maybe that should be assoc-in if you want to set the thing to 500
09:19	justin_smith	but yes, that's the general concept
09:20	jlamain	ok. thanks!
09:20	perplexa	hyPiRion: oh!
09:28	jlamain	justin_smith: I'm now googling and see http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Examples/API_Examples/Advanced_Data_Structures. If i have a deep tree of maps and one of the deeper subtrees is a complex ui component it might not be handy to every time give the full "path" to the assoc-in/update-in functions. Is it possible to give the "component" a shortcut to its own part of the tree ? How ? Is that were zippers are for, s
09:28	jlamain	its zipper and say "update yourself!" ?
09:37	justin_smith	jlamain: the answer may be related to the answer to the quesiton "why do you have a deep tree?" - if each subtree is self contained, perhaps it should have its own implementation of update, such that it updates each of its own contents, recursively
09:37	justin_smith	jlamain: in which case you would call some update function on the top item (passing parameters) and it passes the parameters to an update call to each of its branches, etc.
09:38	justin_smith	I've never actually found zippers especially useful
09:40	jlamain	oke. thanks. Indeed thats also a simple/good solution
09:43	zacts	hi #clojure
09:49	justin_smith	code that uses zippers reads like konami cheat codes
09:51	Glenjamin	the xml-zip stuff seems to work pretty well, but i've never traversed up the tree with it
09:52	justin_smith	Glenjamin: (-> (xml-zip form) zip/up zip/down zip/up zip/down zip/left zip/right zip/left zip/right :a :b :start)
09:52	justin_smith	sorry
09:53	chouser	I still like it with data.zip
09:53	justin_smith	maybe I need to give them a second chance
09:54	hyPiRion	You usually make general functions on top of zippers. Like recursion schemes
09:57	hyPiRion	It's possible to use them yourself too, but I've felt it's only "viable" after a bit practise.
09:59	hellofunk	zacts: that SICM book is what exactly, a clever analysis of basic physics?
10:03	SagiCZ	would you consider Clojure a good scripting language? like perl or python?
10:04	justin_smith	SagiCZ: there's a few limitations - the lack of access to the PID of a child process, the relatively long startup time
10:04	justin_smith	SagiCZ: though I think cljs/node would address both of those
10:04	SagiCZ	i see
10:06	chouser	(def pid (Long/parseLong (str (Files/readSymbolicLink (to-path "/proc/self"))))) ;; probably only Linux
10:06	stuartsierra	Most "scripting" languages are implemented in C, putting them closer to POSIX-style system calls that are important for scripting.
10:06	justin_smith	chouser: I mean the PID of a child process
10:06	justin_smith	chouser: which amazingly, is not provided by Process
10:07	chouser	justin_smith: sigh That JVM. smh
10:08	chouser	even clojurescript is a bit clumsy for scripting type tasks though because of JVM-based compilation.
10:08	justin_smith	SagiCZ: also, pixie is very similar to clojure in a lot of great ways, and has decent scripting support I think (or at least has that as a goal)
10:08	justin_smith	chouser: I had imagined using the compiled output for scripting
10:09	SagiCZ	justin_smith: who makes pixie?
10:10	justin_smith	SagiCZ: it's a collaboration, but tbaldridge is the biggest contributor
10:10	SagiCZ	justin_smith: oh. nevermind then
10:10	justin_smith	SagiCZ: ?
10:10	justin_smith	$last tbaldridge
10:10	lazybot	Couldn't find that user.
10:11	tbaldridge	lol, I'm here
10:11	justin_smith	haha
10:11	tbaldridge	regardless of what lazybot thinks
10:11	SagiCZ	heh
10:11	justin_smith	I hope that isn't something I broke in the lazybot codebase...
10:11	justin_smith	$last tbaldridge
10:11	lazybot	Couldn't find that user.
10:11	justin_smith	so weird...
10:11	hyPiRion	$last justin_smith
10:11	lazybot	justin_smith last listened to: Jean-Baptiste Lully - Ouverture [LULLY: Ballet Music for the Sun King]
10:12	justin_smith	haha
10:12	justin_smith	of course
10:12	SagiCZ	wait what
10:12	justin_smith	$seen tbaldridge
10:12	lazybot	tbaldridge was last seen talking on #clojure 1 minute and 1 second ago.
10:12	hyPiRion	last.fm
10:12	SagiCZ	oh there we go
10:12	justin_smith	I was using the wrong command, my bad
10:13	justin_smith	SagiCZ: anyway, pixie has better access to the kind of stuff you would want for scripting, I think
10:13	SagiCZ	i see.. well i might as well learn perl since i know nothing about pixie
10:13	justin_smith	SagiCZ: like I said, pixie is very similar to clojure
10:13	justin_smith	intentionally so
10:14	tbaldridge	someone should package up node/cljs somehow so that it's easy to compile scripts from lein
10:14	justin_smith	tbaldridge: agreed
10:14	hyPiRion	That plugin must surely be called inlein
10:14	Glenjamin	as in "script.cljs" -> lein compile script.cljs -> ./script
10:14	zacts	hellofunk: it's a book on classical mechanics
10:15	justin_smith	Glenjamin: exactly, that would be great
10:15	Glenjamin	should be pretty doable
10:15	hellofunk	zacts: right, meaning, basic physics?
10:15	zacts	hellofunk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_mechanics
10:15	Glenjamin	they're quite chunky though, a small app like that will be 80k of JS
10:15	Glenjamin	there's no nice way to share libs or a runtime between compiled cljs afaik
10:16	zacts	advanced newtonian physics
10:16	hellofunk	zacts: i know what mechanics is, but i'm wondering if that book has much incommon with SICP or if it's just cashing in on the name
10:16	zacts	yes it has much in common with SICP
10:16	zacts	it uses scheme to teach classical mechanics
10:16	justin_smith	hellofunk: I think that it is just using the house naming style for the curriculum
10:16	SagiCZ	hellofunk: what is SICP? i see that thrown areound here a lot
10:16	zacts	then the math notation afterwards
10:16	hellofunk	SagiCZ: Sussman's ouvre
10:17	zacts	so you get an intuitive sense of how classical mechanics work
10:17	justin_smith	SagiCZ: SICP is a free online book, with accompanying free online lecture videos, that introduce programming via scheme
10:17	justin_smith	SagiCZ: very good course
10:17	zacts	I have yet to read SICM, and much of SICP
10:17	SagiCZ	this? http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/
10:17	zacts	yes SagiCZ
10:17	justin_smith	SagiCZ: yeah - it was my CS 101 and served me very well
10:17	zacts	I'm wondering if Sussman and Aebelson are planning to update SICP to a 3rd edition, I don't know though
10:18	SagiCZ	i see.. thanks
10:18	zacts	justin_smith: MIT or Berkeley?
10:18	justin_smith	SagiCZ: see also these lectures by the author https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLB63C06FAF154F047
10:18	justin_smith	zacts: MIT
10:18	zacts	ah nice
10:18	justin_smith	zacts: that youtube link is video of the MIT lectures
10:18	zacts	yes
10:18	Glenjamin	how about "lein backer script.cljs"
10:18	zacts	I've watched some of those
10:18	jackhill	zacts: MIT changed the CS curriculum, so probably not.
10:18	zacts	jackhill: well it's nice that justin_smith studied SICP when they used that
10:19	justin_smith	jackhill: much the worse for all of us, that
10:19	justin_smith	zacts: well, I did it on my own - it's been a free book for a long time now
10:19	zacts	oh I see
10:19	jackhill	There is also How To Design Programs which takes a different tact for how a first CS course should be structured (and uses racket)
10:19	zacts	I couldn't personally get into HTDP
10:19	justin_smith	I meant "101" in the general sense, I just read it and did the exercises independently
10:19	zacts	I much prefer the tone of SICP for my taste
10:20	zacts	although, to be fair I couldn't get myself to get past the first couple of ch's of HTDP
10:20	zacts	perhaps it gets better
10:20	jackhill	zacts: Different things work for different people. Maybe SICPs better for you.
10:21	zacts	ah yeah
10:21	jackhill	I've spend more time with SICP than HTDP, but I appreciate that the HTDP people have articulated why they wrote the book the way they did.
10:21	jackhill	If nothing else, it help me think of how best to explain things to others.
10:22	jackhill	(their critique of SICP is Structure and Interpretation of Computer Science Curricula)
10:23	jackhill	Anyways, I came here to get a critique of some of my early days in clojure code:
10:24	jackhill	I've written a function, http://paste.ubuntu.com/9957756/ , that returns a sequence of ratios. Is there a "better" (more clear/less repetitive/more efficient) way I could have done it?
10:27	justin_smith	jackhill: you could easily make that function lazy if you used lazy-seq in the tail call
10:27	justin_smith	s/tail-call/self-call
10:28	justin_smith	jackhill: added benefit of lazyness would be not blowing up the stack with large sequences
10:29	jackhill	justin_smith: where would I insert lazy-seq?
10:29	justin_smith	jackhill: one moment, I'll paste my version
10:30	hyPiRion	,(let [nums [1 2 3]] (map (fn [[f s]] (/ s f)) (partition 2 1 nums)))
10:30	clojurebot	(2 3/2)
10:31	hyPiRion	Knowing that you can make pairs with (partition 2 1 ...) is really useful
10:31	jackhill	hyPiRion: thanks!
10:31	justin_smith	jackhill: https://www.refheap.com/96695
10:32	justin_smith	(inc hyPiRion)
10:32	lazybot	⇒ 62
10:32	justin_smith	once again, his version is better
10:33	hyPiRion	jackhill: also take a look at justin_smith's one. It's good to know how the base mechanics of laziness works (where to put lazy-seq etc)
10:33	jackhill	justin_smith, hyPiRion: thanks. I just have to read them a couple time to make sure I understand
10:34	justin_smith	jackhill: I may have obfuscated my point by doing some DRY / extending the destructuring a bit
10:34	hyPiRion	jackhill: I can refactor my version to this (->> nums (partition 2 1) (map (fn [[f s]] (/ s f))))
10:35	jackhill	justin_smith: perhaps. Although I suspected I wanted to use a let, so that's great. I also hadn't seen the multi-level destructuring before, so that great too
10:35	chouser	justin_smith: I think that's less lazy than it could be. Is that intentional?
10:35	chouser	or perhaps just not important.
10:35	justin_smith	chouser: not intentional, I'd be glad for a tip to make it lazier
10:36	chouser	for maximum laziness, you generally want the lazy-seq form as close to the outside as possible. Alas this often means you don't destructure in the fn args.
10:36	hyPiRion	jackhill: (partition 2 1 [1 2 3 4]) => ((1 2) (2 3) (3 4)), and (fn [[f s]] (/ s f)) is just a fancy way to say "take a seq of two elements, and return the second divided by the first"
10:37	justin_smith	(fn [[f s]] (/ s f)) can also be "cleverly" expressed as (comp (partial apply /) reverse)
10:37	jackhill	hyPiRion: ah, and both partition an map return lazy-seq's?
10:37	justin_smith	(for two element list input)
10:38	chouser	As you've got it, calling empty? on remains means that remains will be forced immediately on calling rolling-ratio, which I think means it will immediately force 3 steps when called.
10:38	chouser	If you put lazy-seq just inside the defn, you can reduce that to 0.
10:38	justin_smith	chouser: oh, wow, yeah - the deep digging kills the laziness of course
10:38	hyPiRion	jackhill: yes
10:39	chouser	justin_smith: you got it.
10:39	hyPiRion	jackhill: most functions that work on seqs are lazy (map, filter, take, drop, etc)
10:40	hyPiRion	So it's very common to just use them than to use lazy-seq yourself, as you can often compose those into the desired output
10:40	hyPiRion	to make the desired output, rather
10:41	jackhill	Indeed. And map alrady knows to stop at the end, so I don't need to explicitly check for it.
10:42	hyPiRion	yup
10:43	jackhill	Yay, thanks everyone this really helped.
10:43	justin_smith	chouser: jackhill: my version more lazy https://www.refheap.com/96696
10:45	justin_smith	I just edited to add a version with a let binding, but I am not sure that is any better in this case
10:46	justin_smith	(if only we had a when-let that tested/required multiple bindings in core)
10:59	chouser	justin_smith: looks good to me
11:00	justin_smith	so now I've identified two corners of clojure I could brush up on today, laziness and zippers
11:09	ragge	I'm contemplating trying to implement something that would allow you to use maven packages JARs with nix. Does anyone know if something like this has been done/tried?
11:09	ragge	Ideally, I'd like to express JAR deps using nix, and stick JAR + all deps into nix store
11:10	justin_smith	ragge: what would this do that current usage of maven dependencies / uberjar would not?
11:12	ragge	justin_smith: short answer is that I'd like something that plays well with nix ecosystem
11:13	ragge	allowing things like nix-copy-closure
11:14	justin_smith	ragge: typically my clojure deploys consist of creating an uberjar and a shell script that runs it, and putting those two files on a server
11:14	TimMc	Same here.
11:14	justin_smith	ragge: I like the modularity of nix, but when a deploy has so few pieces, I don't really see what is being gained I guess
11:15	ragge	justin_smith: mine too, but there's alot of stuff that's not captured by that
11:15	justin_smith	ragge: OK
11:15	justin_smith	ragge: what about using nix to abstract the rest of the stuff, and using the maven stuff as usual? I don't see what's gained by wrapping up the maven part too
11:15	ragge	like which JVM, which native deps
11:16	justin_smith	ragge: ahh, native deps are another story
11:17	justin_smith	ragge: but still, I feel like wrapping the maven dependency management in nix feels like a pointless layering. my approach would be to wrap everything maven doesn't do well / can't do with the nix abstractions, and then instead of abstracting over maven, just generate the uberjar and treat that as a single atomic artifact
11:18	ragge	justin_smith: this is really just an exercise for me to try something a bit different
11:18	ragge	idea is to not really use maven or leiningen, or create uberjar
11:18	ragge	just express jar dependencies
11:19	TimMc	You're gonna have to reinvent a lot of stuff.
11:19	ragge	make nix download them, and provide them as needed for compilation/runtime
11:19	ragge	then use plain old java -jar clojure.jar:... clojure.main
11:19	ragge	or clojure.compile
11:19	ragge	TimMc: thats possible
11:20	ragge	and even likely
11:20	TimMc	How will you set the JVM args necessary for the app?
11:20	TimMc	for example heap size, system properties...
11:20	justin_smith	if you're exercising, as long as you're having fun I guess. But it will be a lot of work for little pragmatic end.
11:20	ragge	would be part of your package
11:20	ragge	what you execute is up to you
11:20	ragge	nix can help provide dependencies
11:21	ragge	construct classpath with appropriate JARs (and native deps) stuff from nix store
11:21	TimMc	I see, the command would have to be provided elsewhere, possibly from a shell script anyhow.
12:12	gfredericks	anybody did done made a library for deffing things with HOFs?
12:13	gfredericks	defpartial, defcomp, at least
12:13	gfredericks	not sure if anything else would fit in that group
12:14	chouser	defmap, defreduce?
12:14	gfredericks	the point would be to have better reloadability (by using vars) and better arglist metadata (by stealing it from the original)
12:14	justin_smith	defdef
12:15	justin_smith	(higher order macro for creating def-like forms)
12:15	gfredericks	I feel like I threatened to make a def-oriented library at one point I can't remember what happened
12:15	tcrayford____	gfredericks: free name "defning"
12:15	justin_smith	at least we would never need defdefdef
12:15	gfredericks	tcrayford____: that was suggested for another library already :P
12:16	tcrayford____	dammette
12:16	chouser	justin_smith: probably not, but I could find a use for defdefmacrodef
12:16	justin_smith	haha
12:16	gfredericks	one name I would consider is defdefdefdefdefdefdef
12:16	tcrayford____	gfredericks: "defntlynot"
12:17	hiredman	stick a random f in there
12:17	hiredman	defdefdeffdefdefdefdef
12:17	gfredericks	hiredman: I'm not opposed to this
12:17	justin_smith	defdefdefdefdefdefdefdef-mushroom-mushroom
12:18	chouser	,((get get get get) (get get get) ('get get) 'get)
12:18	clojurebot	get
12:18	chouser	who did I steal that joke from?
12:18	stuartsierra	deffr, rhymes with zephyr
12:19	justin_smith	chouser: (get get get get) was my "discovery" I think, but I like that variation
12:19	tbaldridge	obligatory Monty Python vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anwy2MPT5RE
12:20	chouser	justin_smith: thought it might have been you. It's a wonderful theme, full of potential variations.
12:20	justin_smith	semantic saturation for fun and profit
12:22	gfredericks	,(defn get-it [] (repeatedly (inc (rand-int 4)) #(case (rand-int 5) (0 1) 'get (2 3) ''get 4 (get-it))))
12:22	clojurebot	#'sandbox/get-it
12:22	gfredericks	,(get-it)
12:22	clojurebot	((quote get) (quote get) (get get) (get (quote get)))
12:23	gfredericks	,((quote get) (quote get) (get get) (get (quote get)))
12:23	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core/get>
12:23	gfredericks	:/ I guess it's not likely to evaluate
12:24	chouser	,(map map (meta meta))
12:24	clojurebot	()
12:24	justin_smith	nice
12:24	tcrayford____	(:or :or :or)
12:24	tcrayford____	,(:or :or :or)
12:24	clojurebot	:or
12:25	justin_smith	someone is totally new to clojure and wondering what the fuck they just got into
12:25	justin_smith	(also all of this is totally hilarious)
12:26	TimMc	oh, if we're doing this...
12:26	TimMc	,((((comp comp) (comp comp)) ((comp comp) (comp comp))))
12:26	clojurebot	#<core$identity clojure.core$identity@320baa47>
12:27	chouser	nice!
12:27	justin_smith	NICE
12:28	nic77	<justin_smith> someone is totally new to clojure and wondering what the fuck they just got into
12:28	nic77	yes thats me
12:29	nic77	yall set me back 10 years just now
12:29	justin_smith	nic77: we don't do this in real code, I hope you realize :)
12:30	justin_smith	nic77: though there may be some benefit to realizing why these silly things work
12:30	justin_smith	even if you would never do them on purpose
12:32	TimMc	,(eval (nth (iterate #(list % %) comp) 5))
12:32	clojurebot	#<ExceptionInInitializerError java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError>
12:32	TimMc	?
12:33	justin_smith	TimMc: weird, that works locally
12:33	justin_smith	&(eval (nth (iterate #(list % %) comp) 5))
12:33	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! eval is bad!
12:33	justin_smith	maybe the eval is the issue? does clojurebot usually allow it?
12:34	TimMc	,(eval 5)
12:34	clojurebot	5
12:34	TimMc	shrug
12:34	TimMc	,(eval (nth (iterate #(list % %) comp) 5))
12:34	clojurebot	#<ExceptionInInitializerError java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError>
12:38	TimMc	We should be able to do eval in lazybot, right? As long as we can resolve vars.
12:38	justin_smith	TimMc: I think it is an arbitrary sandboxing constraint, I don't know what the reasoning was.
12:39	TimMc	Challenge: Build a fn that allows you to do this: &(let [ev (fn ...)] (ev (list + 2 3))) ;; 5
12:39	TimMc	and have it fit in an IRC message, obviously.
12:39	TimMc	... = 5 is cheating
12:39	TimMc	or [] 5 in this case
12:41	justin_smith	&(let [ev (fn [f & args] (apply f args))] (ev (list + 2 3)))
12:41	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
12:41	justin_smith	hrmph
12:41	justin_smith	oh, duh
12:41	justin_smith	&(let [ev (fn [& [f & args]] (apply f args))] (ev (list + 2 3)))
12:41	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
12:41	justin_smith	OK, back to my own repl, sorry
12:42	Bronsa	justin_smith: remove the &
12:42	justin_smith	(let [ev (fn [[f & args]] (apply f args))] (ev (list + 2 3)))
12:42	justin_smith	&(let [ev (fn [[f & args]] (apply f args))] (ev (list + 2 3)))
12:42	lazybot	⇒ 5
13:00	justin_smith	TimMc: '(+ 2 3) would have made me use resolve
13:01	TimMc	&(letfn [(ev [s] (if (list? s) (apply (first s) (map ev (rest s))) s))] (ev (list + (list * 2 3) 5)))
13:01	lazybot	⇒ 11
13:01	TimMc	recursive!
13:02	justin_smith	I think that's really close to one of the 4clojure problems actually
13:05	mearnsh	this one? https://www.4clojure.com/problem/121
13:05	mearnsh	4clojure forbids resolve though
13:05	justin_smith	yeah, that's the one I was thinking of
13:06	benmoss	does anyone have any advice for how to serialize a byte buffer/byte array in order to write decoding tests against it?
13:06	benmoss	i’m up against the limits of my knowledge here
13:07	justin_smith	benmoss: I use base64 to turn it into a string that I put as a literal or into a resource file, then bas64decode to turn it into a byte array again for testing
13:07	TimMc	You could turn it into a seq of bytes or maybe produce a base64 string.
13:07	justin_smith	https://github.com/clojure/data.codec data.codec does base64
13:07	TimMc	Seq of bytes is dumb but easy (unless you'll be interacting with resource files.)
13:07	TimMc	Then it's just dumb.
13:08	justin_smith	yeah, for a smaller one at least seq of bytes would be fine too
13:08	TimMc	Oh, I guess with a seq of bytes you have to deal with the fact that they're signed... :-(
13:09	justin_smith	TimMc: well, it's a transperent thing when you go both ways with it
13:09	justin_smith	it's not like the double conversion would lose anything
13:09	benmoss	hmm how do you turn it into a seq of bytes? i assume we are talking about a byte array here
13:10	justin_smith	,(seq (byte-array (map byte [1 2 3 4]))
13:10	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
13:10	justin_smith	oops
13:10	justin_smith	,(seq (byte-array (map byte [1 2 3 4])))
13:10	benmoss	groovy
13:10	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4)
13:10	Bronsa	justin_smith: is the map byte really necessary?
13:11	justin_smith	or to construct a vector literal (into [] (.getBytes "hello"))
13:11	benmoss	that is perfect for my needs
13:11	justin_smith	Bronsa: I recall byte-array complaining
13:11	justin_smith	,(byte-array [1 2 3 4])
13:11	clojurebot	#<byte[] [B@385fbfa0>
13:11	justin_smith	Bronsa: I was wrong
13:11	justin_smith	,(into [] (.getBytes "hello"))
13:11	clojurebot	[104 101 108 108 111]
13:15	justin_smith	maybe I was thinking of something like (into-array Byte [1 2 3])
13:15	Bronsa	,(into-array Byte [1 2 3])
13:15	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: array element type mismatch>
13:15	Bronsa	uh
13:15	Bronsa	,(into-array Byte/TYPE [1 2 3])
13:15	clojurebot	#<byte[] [B@4cef0f23>
13:16	Bronsa	cool
13:16	justin_smith	that's where (map byte ...) is needed, but now I struggle to recall why I would make an array of Byte instead of Byte/TYPE
13:16	stuartsierra	,(byte-array [1 2 3])
13:16	clojurebot	#<byte[] [B@1eb9de7e>
13:17	Bronsa	stuartsierra: yeah we were just wondering when (map byte [1 2 3]) is necessary and when [1 2 3] is ok
13:22	stuartsierra	ah
13:22	stuartsierra	byte coercions are odd. Just the other day I had to write (.byteValue (Long. 0xFF))
13:24	hiredman	(doc unchecked-byte)
13:24	clojurebot	"([x]); Coerce to byte. Subject to rounding or truncation."
13:24	justin_smith	cool
13:24	justin_smith	,(unchecked-byte 1000)
13:24	clojurebot	-24
13:47	Bronsa	justin_smith: who needs unchecked-byte when you can do ##(first (byte-array [1000]))
13:47	lazybot	⇒ -24
13:47	TimMc	This seems sensible.
13:48	justin_smith	TimMc: after all, it is 24 short of a value that should map to 0
14:07	gfredericks	thinking of adding a test.chuck namespace for making assertions about generators & their distribution
14:07	gfredericks	and am trying to name the namespace
14:11	hiredman	test.check.gauss
14:11	gfredericks	it would be structured a lot like such-that
14:11	gfredericks	you give it a predicate and it checks that the generator generates something satisfying the predicate before too long
14:12	gfredericks	probably by increasing the size the same way such-that does
14:16	{blake}	Is it true that I need a Clojure library (like "classpath") in order to figure out what the classpath is? (I would've thought it was a built-in.)
14:17	hiredman	the classpath is a static thing handed to the jvm at start up, why would you need to know what it is?
14:17	{blake}	hiredman: I'm trying to use yesql, which requires the sql to be put on the classpath.
14:18	hiredman	{blake}: at run time the classpath is whatever you tell the jvm, at dev time it is the same, but generally people let lein manage launching jvms at dev time, and lein has a classpath command which prints out the classpath it is using
14:19	gfredericks	{blake}: the /resources directory is the normal place to put non-code on the classpath
14:19	hiredman	{blake}: but generally you would put things like the files yesql uses in a directory called resources/
14:20	{blake}	hiredman, gfredericks: Thanks. Does it search subdirs?
14:20	justin_smith	{blake}: provide a path that is relative to that directory
14:20	{blake}	I guess not.
14:20	justin_smith	ie resources/sql/my-query.sql
14:21	justin_smith	then ask for "sql/my-query.sql"
14:21	{blake}	Oh, right. Duh. That's what I started with but off the root.
14:21	{blake}	Points party!
14:21	{blake}	(inc hiredman)
14:21	lazybot	⇒ 69
14:21	{blake}	(inc gfredericks)
14:21	lazybot	⇒ 114
14:21	{blake}	(inc justin_smith)
14:21	lazybot	⇒ 178
14:27	benmoss	hmm, anyone familiar with ztellman’s byte-streams/manifold?
14:28	benmoss	i am trying to emulate the incoming tcp stream from aleph for a test, but can’t wrap my head around how to do it
14:29	benmoss	i have the byte array i was talking about earlier, but not sure how to turn it into a stream of bytes consumable by gloss
14:29	benmoss	stuck in ztellman hell
14:40	tcrayford____	benmoss: well, I tooted it at ztellman. Iirc he's on freenode, maybe you could just private message him on here?
14:41	benmoss	hah i just saw that
14:41	tcrayford____	(I use other parts of the ztellman kingdom, but not manifold or gloss or manifold)
14:41	ztellman	benmoss: hey, sorry for the troubles
14:41	ztellman	if you just use decode-stream on the aleph gives you, it should work
14:42	benmoss	no no its just my relative newbishness
14:42	ztellman	on the stream aleph gives you*
14:42	benmoss	yeah that works fine, i’m trying to diagnose a problem in my codec and thus trying to recreate the TCP stream in a test
14:42	ztellman	then you can just create a sequence of bytes, or a byte array, or whatever
14:42	ztellman	and (->source bytes)
14:43	benmoss	yeah, i have that much, i get “cannot convert byte[] to source”
14:43	cemerick	stuartsierra: you want (unchecked-byte 0xff)
14:44	ztellman	benmoss it has to be a sequence
14:44	cemerick	meh, should've kept reading the scrollback :-P
14:44	ztellman	(->source [bytes])
14:44	ztellman	if it's just a byte-array
14:44	ztellman	I've got to run, unfortunately
14:44	ztellman	send me an email if you keep having trouble
14:44	benmoss	no worries, thanks though
14:45	benmoss	your libs are a joy to work with as soon as i can wrap my head around them :)
14:45	ztellman	as a rule of thumb: you can convert streamy and sequencey things to Manifold streams, so you'll need to coerce it at least that ar
14:45	ztellman	far*
14:45	ztellman	you can also just call gloss.io/decode on the byte-array
14:45	ztellman	as an alternative
14:45	ztellman	anyway, best of luck
14:52	stuartsierra	cemerick: ah, thanks
14:54	cemerick	stuartsierra: sure; ironically, working with bytes in javascript is actually more pleasant than on the JVM because of the signededness
14:59	sdegutis	What majestic technique would you use to return all the non-alphanumeric characters in a string (duplicates found in the string are allowed but not required in the result)?
15:01	amalloy	(.replaceAll s "[a-zA-z0-9]" "")
15:02	amalloy	or use clojure.string/replace, whatever suits your fancy
15:04	edw	,(inc 41)
15:04	clojurebot	42
15:04	benmoss	,(re-seq #”\W” “foo@bar.com”)
15:04	clojurebot	#<ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException java.lang.ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException: 8221>
15:05	sdegutis	amalloy: thanks
15:05	amalloy	benmoss: close, except that removes _ as well
15:05	sdegutis	,(re-seq #"\W" "foo@bar.com")
15:05	clojurebot	("@" ".")
15:05	sdegutis	excellent thanks benmoss
15:05	benmoss	ah, don’t listen to me :)
15:05	sdegutis	why?
15:05	clojurebot	why is the ram gone is <reply>I blame UTF-16. http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/but-why-is-the-ram-gone
15:05	sdegutis	it was a legitimate solution benmoss
15:05	edw	Also, benmoss, you has some weird cury quotes in there.
15:05	sdegutis	,(.replaceAll "foo@bar.com" "[a-zA-z0-9]" "")
15:05	clojurebot	"@."
15:05	amalloy	,(re-seq #"\W" "foo_bar.com")
15:05	clojurebot	(".")
15:05	benmoss	yeah not sure where that crap is coming from
15:06	sdegutis	oh
15:06	llasram	,(into #{} (remove #(or (Character/isAlphabetic (int %)) (Character/isDigit %))) "What's this `*` doing in my code?")
15:06	clojurebot	#{\space \` \' \* \?}
15:08	sdegutis	What's a consummate way of removing all duplicate characters from a string?
15:08	TimMc	benmoss: oh ess ex
15:08	llasram	,(Character/getNumericValue \Ⅼ)
15:08	clojurebot	50
15:08	benmoss	TimMC: yep just figured out how to disable that :)
15:08	TimMc	llasram: ooooh
15:09	llasram	,(Character/getNumericValue \L)
15:09	clojurebot	21
15:09	TimMc	,(.getPort (java.net.URL. "http://www.example.com:Ⅼ/")) ;; just checking
15:09	clojurebot	#<MalformedURLException java.net.MalformedURLException: denied>
15:10	TimMc	,(.getPort (java.net.URL. "http://www.example.com:८५/")) ;; for comparison
15:10	clojurebot	#<MalformedURLException java.net.MalformedURLException: denied>
15:10	hellofunk	sdegutis: duplicates in succession, or duplicates anywhere?
15:10	TimMc	uh
15:10	TimMc	&(.getPort (java.net.URL. "http://www.example.com:८५/"))
15:10	lazybot	⇒ 85
15:10	amalloy	nice
15:11	sdegutis	hellofunk: anywhere
15:11	TimMc	&(.getPort (java.net.URL. "http://www.example.com:Ⅼ/"))
15:11	lazybot	java.lang.NumberFormatException: For input string: "Ⅼ"
15:12	hellofunk	sdegutis: probably many ways but you could just reduce over the string and add each char to a set which automatically removes duplicates, check for set inclusion in your reduce fn.
15:12	sdegutis	hellofunk: nice
15:12	llasram	,(into #{} "um, like this?")
15:12	hellofunk	sdegutis: i'm sure there are other oways
15:12	sdegutis	oh wait
15:12	sdegutis	this
15:12	clojurebot	#{\space \e \h \i \k ...}
15:12	sdegutis	,(= (set "foo") #{\f \o})
15:12	clojurebot	true
15:13	sdegutis	duh lol
15:13	llasram	haha
15:13	llasram	Even better
15:13	sdegutis	thanks everyoen for your help
15:13	sdegutis	,#{#{\@ \% \- \.} #{\@ \.} #{\@ \% \.} #{\@ \- \.}}
15:13	clojurebot	#{#{\@ \.} #{\@ \% \.} #{\@ \% \- \.} #{\@ \- \.}}
15:27	gfredericks	just made an alternative to test.check's prop/for-all that handles the bindings differently: https://github.com/gfredericks/test.chuck#properties
15:28	tomjack	looks like it exposes the generator monad?
15:29	tomjack	brilliant
15:29	tomjack	I wrote something like that which didn't handle :let and :when. thank you!!!
15:29	gfredericks	basically; it's based on another macro that does that as a generator rather than a property
15:29	slipset	Burrito!
15:29	gfredericks	tomjack: see this for the generator variant: https://github.com/gfredericks/test.chuck#for
15:30	gfredericks	tomjack: it also has :parallel for doing gen/tuple
15:30	tomjack	pretty awkward to deal with generators which take generated values as parameters without something like that, I think
15:30	gfredericks	yeah I've used it pretty heavily
15:36	tomjack	I've wondered if maybe the generator monad should be made a bit more like core.logic's monad?
15:36	tomjack	e.g. (gen/sample (gen/bind gen/nat #(gen/such-that even? (gen/return %))))
15:36	tomjack	should that fail..?
15:37	gfredericks	I don't think so...does it?
15:37	gfredericks	or wait
15:37	gfredericks	is this a such-that thing?
15:37	gfredericks	gotcha
15:37	tomjack	yeah, isn't that how your :when works?
15:37	tomjack	basically I want fair conjunction I think
15:38	gfredericks	yeah, if you went out of your way to write it that way
15:38	gfredericks	I've pondered an extra feature that would let you group things for applying the :when more selectively
15:39	gfredericks	I haven't actually needed different :when granularity very much
15:39	tomjack	I was trying stuff like "generate an active domain, then bind and generate some stuff from the domain such that certain conditions hold"
15:40	tomjack	but if the conditions can't be satisfied for any active domain, it breaks
15:40	tomjack	I mean, if for some active domain, the conditions can't be satisfied at all
15:40	gfredericks	right
15:40	gfredericks	so the question is if you can recognize those kind of domains
15:40	gfredericks	and filter early with that
15:40	gfredericks	if not, then yeah you need different granularity
15:41	gfredericks	I was thinking the syntax could be (for [:group [domain gen-domain, stuff (gen-stuff domain)] :when (...)] ...)
15:41	gfredericks	but couldn't decide what the keyword should be called. :group? something else?
15:42	gfredericks	there might have been some trickier aspect that I can't even remember at the moment
15:42	hellofunk	anyone know where the term "list comprehension" came from? it seems like an odd term. is it from lisp heritage?
15:43	tomjack	I think it's from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_schema_of_specification
15:43	hiredman	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set-builder_notation
15:43	amalloy	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_comprehension#History
15:43	justin_smith	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_comprehension#History
15:43	justin_smith	haha
15:43	hellofunk	holy wow
15:43	hellofunk	you guys are on top of it!
15:43	amalloy	so uh, tldr the internet is not a hard place to find things
15:43	hellofunk	sigh.
15:44	gfredericks	:group seems like a decent name now that I think about it
15:45	tomjack	that means (for-all [[domain stuff] (for-all [domain gen-domain, stuff (gen-stuff domain)] [domain stuff]) :when (...)] ...) ?
15:46	gfredericks	s/for-all/for/ but yeah
15:51	mspo	hey can someone show me how to configure connection pooling with mysql on org.clojure/java.jdbc?
15:52	justin_smith	the mysql part isn't relevant btw - it's the same for any jdbc driver - one minute, there's a good example out there I can dig up
15:53	justin_smith	mspo: https://github.com/niwibe/clojure.jdbc-c3p0 this lib makes it very easy
15:54	justin_smith	mspo: this shows how to do it via interop http://clojure-doc.org/articles/ecosystem/java_jdbc/connection_pooling.html which is not super hard either
15:57	mspo	thanks
15:58	hellofunk	anyone used Julia?
16:01	cddr	I want to process a map recursively, collecting the values into a flattened sequence after running each one through a fn. Is that something I could/should use clojure.walk/walk for?
16:02	amalloy	probably not. just mapcat+recursion
16:08	justin_smith	tree-seq could be an option if you filtered out the leaves ##(remove coll? (tree-seq coll? seq {:a 0 :b [1 2 3 [4 5 [6]]]}))
16:08	lazybot	⇒ (:b 1 2 3 4 5 6 :a 0)
16:08	zacts	is there a way I can reload a core.clj within a lein repl, without actually killing and restarting the repl?
16:08	amalloy	justin_smith: that's just flatten
16:08	amalloy	zacts: (require 'my.ns :reload)
16:08	justin_smith	amalloy: nope ##(flatten {:a 0 :b [1 2 3 [4 5 [6]]]})
16:08	lazybot	⇒ ()
16:09	justin_smith	maybe flatten + seq?
16:09	amalloy	justin_smith: yes, yes, a slightly improved version of flatten in that you use coll? instead of sequential?
16:10	mgaare	zacts: also can look at clojure.tools.namespace for the Big Guns (reloads all namespaces that have changed and their dependencies in the right order)
16:13	zacts	oh thanks!
16:13	justin_smith	amalloy: now I must take a hard look in the mirror and accept the fact that I have written a slightly improved version of flatten
16:13	noonian	zacts: also (require 'my.ns :reload-all) if code changed in a file required by my.ns
16:13	amalloy	justin_smith: or just break the mirror. some things are worse than seven years' bad luck
16:13	justin_smith	haha
16:15	zacts	oh is it a single quote?
16:15	zacts	not 'my.ns', but 'my.ns ?
16:15	zacts	I'm getting an error
16:16	amalloy	zacts: 'foo' is pretty much always wrong in clojure
16:16	noonian	yes, the single quote in clojure is used to suppress evaluation, and is syntactic sugar for (quote my.ns). You don't need it if you are doing this from inside the ns form
16:17	hellofunk	what's an approach to a functional lens in clojure? how would one do that?
16:17	noonian	,foo
16:17	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: foo in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
16:17	noonian	,'foo
16:17	clojurebot	foo
16:18	amalloy	hellofunk: for simple lenses, update-in and get-in basically handle it all; for complex lenses nobody really bothers
16:18	BobSchack	hellofunk: Here's an article about strongly typed lenses http://blog.podsnap.com/tinhole.html
16:18	hellofunk	amalloy: cool i follow you
16:21	{blake}	Is there a string formatting utility such that "The :speed :color :animal jumps!" would come out as "The quick brown fox jumps!" when passed a map of {:speed "quick" :color "brown" :animal "fox"}?
16:21	hellofunk	amalloy: http://stackoverflow.com/a/21293171/3758484
16:22	stuartsierra	{blake}: yes, string-interpolation in core.incubator
16:23	{blake}	stuartsierra: Thank you!
16:23	{blake}	(inc stuartsierra)
16:23	lazybot	⇒ 18
16:23	hellofunk	amalloy: most interesting quote: "Importantly that means that we can be sure when we have a true lens that datatype descent cannot fail—that kind of guarantee is impossible to make in Clojure."
16:25	amalloy	so you've been reading about haskell like you planned, hellofunk?
16:25	hellofunk	amalloy: i have. but mostly going above languages in general to read more about functional theory
17:28	{blake}	,(let [f0 "C:\\long\\fn.ext" f1 (apply str (take (.lastIndexOf f0 ".") f0))] (apply str (drop (inc (.lastIndexOf f1 "\\")) f1)))
17:28	clojurebot	"fn"
17:28	{blake}	Seems cumbersome.
17:30	Mr0rris0	what is it
17:31	{blake}	Strips a (Windows-style) path of all but the filename.
17:32	{blake}	You start with a string, which gets turned into an array as you use take, which you turn into a string again, and then turn back into an array with drop, then turn back into a string.
17:39	TMA	,(defn foobar [f0] (let [f1 (apply str (take (.lastIndexOf f0 ".") f0))] (apply str (drop (inc (.lastIndexOf f1 "\\")) f1))))
17:39	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foobar
17:39	TMA	,(foobar "c:\\long.ext\\extensionlessfilename")
17:39	clojurebot	"long"
17:40	TMA	,(foobar "c:\\long\\extensionlessfilename")
17:40	clojurebot	""
17:40	chouser	,(let [f0 "C:\\long\\fn.ext"] (second (re-find #"([^\\])\.[^.]$" f0)))
17:40	clojurebot	"fn"
17:41	amalloy	{blake}: why are you doing this with strnigs at all?
17:41	chouser	,(let [f0 "C:\\long\\noext"] (second (re-find #"([^\\])\.[^.]$" f0)))
17:41	clojurebot	nil
17:41	{blake}	I think I have a line (lein?) on what might be causing my Compojure access errors: When I run "lein new compojure app" and then "lein ring server" on the result in a HEADLESS enviornment, I get an X11 error...like it's trying to open a display.
17:41	{blake}	amalloy: 'cause that's what comes to me? A filename string?
17:41	amalloy	make a java.io.File, ask it for the filename-part
17:41	kodumulo	Looking for a streaming http client library. I'm looking at a chunked request. I tried http-kit and clj-http and they both seem to block rather than returning some sort of stream
17:42	kodumulo	chunked response*
17:42	dakrone	kodumulo: clj-http will return a stream if you use {:as :stream} with it, then you can read as you need
17:42	amalloy	,(.getName (java.io.File. "/foo/bar/baz.txt"))
17:42	clojurebot	"baz.txt"
17:42	kodumulo	dakrone: (def foo (client/get "http://localhost:9090" {:as :stream})) is blocking my repl
17:43	amalloy	will do the same thing on windows, for windows-style paths
17:43	{blake}	,(.getName (java.io.File "C:\whatever\what\os.txt"))
17:43	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unsupported escape character: \w>
17:43	chouser	,(.getName (java.io.File. "c:\\foo\\bar\\baz.txt"))
17:43	clojurebot	"c:\\foo\\bar\\baz.txt"
17:43	{blake}	amalloy: If I'm running on Linux and getting a Windows path?
17:43	{blake}	amalloy: (I mean, I didn't think of it. But wondering it hat would cause trouble.)
17:43	{blake}	er, if that
17:44	amalloy	well it won't do anything very useful then
17:44	kodumulo	dakrone: might be the servers fault though, thanks
17:44	{blake}	amalloy: Because it's assuming the path is going to be native?
17:45	amalloy	yeah more or less
17:45	{blake}	(And why wouldn't it. I only have to do this because, apparently, IE gives the whole path where other browsers just give the filename.)
17:45	{blake}	So, yeah, last segment between \ and . (Extensions required.)
17:46	kodumulo	Ah its working now
17:59	{blake}	So, why would a brand new compojure app generate this? "No X11 DISPLAY variable was set, but this program performed an operation which requires it".
18:00	hiredman	you are loading some java library that is trying to do gui stuff
18:00	amalloy	because lein ring server attempts to open a browser window and navigate to your server, for some misguided reason
18:00	Mr0rris0	is that just another name for clojure?
18:00	hiredman	lein ring has some really terribel stuff :/
18:01	{blake}	amalloy: Oh, sure. It does that locally, but it can't do that on my remote headless server.
18:01	amalloy	mhm
18:01	{blake}	Dammit, I thought I was on to something.
18:01	amalloy	onto something?
18:01	{blake}	Yeah, because I get access errors when I run locally.
18:01	hiredman	don't use lein ring to run your app
18:02	{blake}	hiredman: Locally? Why not?
18:02	hiredman	when doing dev, sure
18:02	{blake}	And it's not my app, per se, it's any Compojure app.
18:02	hiredman	I mean, it is kind of terrible still
18:02	hiredman	it adds all kinds of middleware and behaviour that will trip you up when it is different without it
18:02	{blake}	hiredman: Using Wildfly in production.
18:03	hiredman	ok, no worries then
18:03	{blake}	Well, different worries, anyway.
18:03	hiredman	well, it is almost certainly lein ring trying and failing to open a browser
18:04	hiredman	so just do lein ring server-headless or whatever it is and you'll be fine
18:04	{blake}	hiredman: Yeah, and that might be why I get local errors, too. For some reason, lein does not have permission to do that all of a sudden.
18:04	hiredman	but in theory, it could be some other random code loading java.awt or something
18:05	{blake}	Bingo!!
18:05	hiredman	which, well, I think incanter might do that
18:05	TEttinger	yeah
18:05	{blake}	Well, that's a relief.
18:05	hiredman	(for the graphing stuff)
18:05	{blake}	I was getting it with a compojure starting template.
18:05	{blake}	So it's just a weird Windows thing. I no longer care. =P
18:05	hiredman	there is a command line option you can pass to java to use the headless version of the gui toolkit too
18:06	hiredman	I forget what it is
18:06	amalloy	it varies by OS i think, hiredman
18:06	amalloy	oh or i think i'm thinking of something else
18:06	hiredman	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2552371/setting-java-awt-headless-true-programmatically
18:08	{blake}	Good to know.
18:51	justin_smith	{blake}: yeah, compojure uses awt to use the desktop stuff to make the browser open a page on startup
18:52	justin_smith	{blake}: oh, and I see someone already said that
18:56	Lewix	In terms of trend Go is pulverizing clojure
18:56	Mr0rris0	ya?
18:56	Lewix	yup
18:56	Mr0rris0	whats go
18:57	Lewix	more people use it , and it's growing faster
18:57	Lewix	Mr0rris0: the new google language
18:57	Mr0rris0	oh
18:57	Mr0rris0	im just starting to learn something, anything really
18:57	tbaldridge	well shoot, I guess I'll just stop programming clojure then...gotta go with the trends
18:58	Lewix	Mr0rris0: are you new to the world of programming
18:58	Mr0rris0	yes
18:58	Lewix	tbaldridge: yea do that
18:58	hellofunk	wise man once said somewhere that a language's popularity can be approximated by its number of starts on github. in which case Go is about tied with Julia, which I'd never heard of before this evening, both of which are significantly more starred than clojure
18:58	hellofunk	*stars
18:58	Mr0rris0	im trying to understand what these vecters are about with the graph theory, not sure why though
18:59	Lewix	hellofunk: i wonder what attracks people to Go as opposed to clojure and vice versa
18:59	justin_smith	Lewix: the languages have very little in common
18:59	metellus	I'm not sure it's fair to assume that all languages will have github representation proportional to popularity
18:59	tbaldridge	Lewix: could be nothing more than PR. Google is a tad bigger than Rich's team
18:59	Lewix	Mr0rris0: graph theory? why did you choose clojure to start with in the world of programming
19:00	hellofunk	Lewix: a significant part of Go was simply added to Clojure as a single library, so that breaks down the power of the languages pretty clearly
19:00	tbaldridge	same with Rust, the language isn't even finished, but Mozilla keeps hyping it so much it's gaining traction
19:00	Mr0rris0	its just something a guy un here mentioned having to do with a game
19:00	Lewix	hellofunk: well , do you know go at all?
19:01	hellofunk	Lewix: never used it, just going off others' remarks and articles
19:01	amalloy	black plays first, you want to surround territory and capture stones
19:01	Lewix	I stumbled across a few block of people moving from clojure to goland
19:01	Mr0rris0	well i was looking for places like this one and found it
19:01	justin_smith	(inc amalloy)
19:01	lazybot	⇒ 219
19:01	tbaldridge	I've played around with it a bit, it's cool and all, but not even close to the reach that a JVM based language gets.
19:01	Mr0rris0	clojure was just a chat when i looked at the more than 15,000 freenode channels
19:01	Mr0rris0	its alphabetical so thats prett much why
19:01	Lewix	aha
19:01	Mr0rris0	:D
19:01	Lewix	nice
19:02	Mr0rris0	yup
19:02	amalloy	we'd get more uptake if rich had had the foresight to name this language Aardvark
19:02	Mr0rris0	there was a room and it was named something closer to A than Z
19:02	Mr0rris0	yup
19:02	hellofunk	am i imagining it or is there a proliferation of new programming langauges these last few years, coming into the scene at a faster clip than previous decades
19:02	Mr0rris0	Aardvark++
19:03	tbaldridge	forget it, I'm going to program in APL
19:03	Mr0rris0	probably not imagining it
19:03	Lewix	I think it's all about easy and simple
19:03	Lewix	Golang is both
19:04	Mr0rris0	if it works it works
19:04	Lewix	clojure might be simple but it's not easy
19:04	Mr0rris0	that may be an asset in the long run
19:04	tbaldridge	I'd debate the whole "go is simple" thing. It has mutability through the entire thing
19:04	tbaldridge	OOP languages are not simple, let alone those that embrace CSP
19:04	Lewix	tbaldridgei won't listen if you never played with go
19:05	justin_smith	Lewix: few of my criteria that led to choosing Clojure apply to golang. It isn't a lisp, it isn't designed to make functional programming easy to do, it doesn't support programming against interfaces. The only things it has going for it is not being heavily OO and having a smart setup for concurrency, as far as I am concerned.
19:06	Lewix	and for people who don't like java like me it takes a lot to convince us to learn clojure - so far so good , i enjoy it
19:06	Mr0rris0	if its easy everyone does it depends on what side of the racket your on as to that being good or bad
19:06	Lewix	justin_smith: what do you mean by programming against interfaces?
19:07	hellofunk	justin_smith: just started watching this. first big point he makes is about how important interfaces are in Go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytEkHepK08c#t=73 though i'll have more idea what he's talking about in a few minutes
19:07	justin_smith	Lewix: code where concrete types rarely matter, and instead you can code in terms of an interface any type could implement.
19:07	justin_smith	hellofunk: interesting, I could be wrong on that point then
19:07	{blake}	Lewix: If you don't like Java, there's always ClojureScript and ClojureCLR.
19:08	Lewix	justin_smith: yes you're wrong about that
19:09	Lewix	{blake}: well I'm currently learning clojure, and I like it with the very basics stuff I learned so far - it's just at some point when ill be more fluent im pretty certain ill encouter java code while debugging
19:09	hellofunk	Lewix: {blake}: i don't think liking/knowing or not-liking/not-knowing Java has much relevance to whether one should/could use/love/learn Clojure. I've never used Java in my life and continue to avoid it despite working in Clojure all day
19:10	Lewix	hellofunk: I think it depends on the type of work you do
19:10	justin_smith	Lewix: java code never shows up in debugging. Java stacktraces sure, but not java code.
19:10	{blake}	Lewix: I've encountered Java code but never while debugging. Just put up a big project using POI.
19:10	{blake}	Which was awesome, because I got to leverage Java without having to use it.
19:10	Lewix	hey guys im not arguing against clojure
19:10	justin_smith	Lewix: but the code and documentation is good enough in quality generally that you don't need to read java to fix your bug, unless you were writing java.
19:10	{blake}	hellofunk: I agree. I leveraged it. Was happy to have it.
19:10	Lewix	just saying try Go you'll also love it
19:11	{blake}	Lewix: Oh, I didn't think you were. A lot of newcomers seem to have that reservation, vis a vis Java, is all. And it's only as relevant as you want it to be.
19:12	Lewix	Blake1: most libraries use java , the whole point of being on the jvm is to take advantage of it
19:12	{blake}	Just saying: I had a major win here by implementing an Excel/Java thing without having to use either Excel or Java.
19:12	amalloy	well if i use clojure i might encounter java code, but if i use go i will definitely encounter go code
19:12	Lewix	if you're the kind of programmer that tweek libraries, doesn't it make sense you'd encouter java
19:13	{blake}	Lewix: Sure. But it's not necessary. The other big project I manage goes nowhere near Java.
19:13	{blake}	amalloy: BaZING!
19:13	Lewix	I didn't say it was. I said in my use case it matters
19:13	Lewix	so I had to suck it up
19:14	hellofunk	man this Go syntax is looking a lot like C. i think lisp has really spoiled me.
19:14	Lewix	amalloy: are you a go dude
19:14	dnolen	Lewix: people here are familiar with Go especially its concurrency model and we love that part, but given its unquestionably weak support for functional programming I don't think you're going to find many converts in #clojure
19:14	Lewix	hellofunk: it sure does
19:14	Lewix	aha
19:15	Lewix	dnolen: well if you're closed minded that is
19:15	hellofunk	lol
19:15	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
19:15	{blake}	But will Go be as successful as Dart?
19:15	Lewix	dnolen: i came across great blog post about people who are very active with clojure who love go and vice versa
19:15	hellofunk	if dnolen is close minded then i'm an elephant taking a massive shit on the moon
19:15	{blake}	lol
19:16	Lewix	I don't understand how people can argue or pretend to when they never used what they're aguing against
19:16	Lewix	I fail to understand that
19:16	justin_smith	Lewix: there are thousands of languages I could go learn. I'm here because I use Clojure.
19:16	Lewix	exactly
19:16	hellofunk	Lewix: Go's async abilities are very well understood in the clojure community because of core.async, so it's not total ignorance
19:17	dnolen	Lewix: I've used Go, just never in anger, and I tried it enough to respect it but have zero desire to use it in anger
19:17	hiredman	I started writing a lisp to go transpiler, and wrote a minikanren port to go, I hated it
19:17	Lewix	hellofunk: well it doesn't represent the whole language, so criticizing or assuming you won't like it because you're a "functional guy" is closed minded IMO
19:17	hellofunk	Lewix: i never said anything like that
19:18	Lewix	hiredman: I see. your opinion count then =)
19:18	Lewix	hiredman: at least you know both
19:18	justin_smith	Lewix: I've done imperitive code, rejecting it again isn't close minded.
19:19	Lewix	justin_smith: it is, the fact that people don't wanna try functional programming is because they think about lips and close their mind to other options such as scala or #f, or clojure
19:19	hiredman	I started the lisp transpiler precisely because I was interested in go's concurrency, but the runtime was/isn't dynamic enough
19:20	hellofunk	Lewix: i will say this, i've rarely encountered someone anywhere who has used a lisp for a long time who didn't want to stick with it after seeing how it works, because other languages just don't quite feel the same to a lisper
19:20	hiredman	I did the minikanren port, because part of the justification for the lisp to go compiler was "oh, maybe I can make this lisp stuff more available to go", but then I thought "I could just do it in go" so I did
19:20	hiredman	the datastructure related work for minikanren was really painful
19:20	imanc	why would someone define a function like this? (defn foo [& [a b c]]... )
19:20	hiredman	I imeplemented a redblack tree for a persistent map
19:21	justin_smith	imanc: if they don't actually care about the argument count
19:21	justin_smith	imanc: and will just fill in unsupplied args with nils
19:21	hiredman	go is not a great language for custom data structures
19:21	hiredman	(fighting or ignoring the type system)
19:23	imanc	justin_smith: so presumably a, b, c will be assigned the first 3 params, anything else will get discarded?
19:23	Lewix	hiredman: I see. I give myself a few weeks with clojure - I was attracted to it mainly because of machine learning
19:23	hiredman	have fun, it is a blast
19:23	Lewix	hiredman: go lack the ecosystem / the libraries etc
19:24	Lewix	thanks
19:24	noonian	I don't agree with the premise that functional programming with immutable values and imperative programming with mutation is merely a matter of taste. I believe there are real technical advantages to avoiding mutation.
19:24	noonian	imanc: yep, exactly
19:25	{blake}	Lewix: What's kind of cool about Clojure is that people will wrap up other language libraries and make them better.
19:26	{blake}	(Or at least arguably so.)
19:26	Lewix	{blake}: really? good to know
19:26	imanc	so why not just do (defn foo [a b c & _] .... )
19:26	Lewix	{blake}: it reminds me of ruby
19:26	{blake}	Lewix: Yeah. So you may find, if you dig around in libraries, you're more inclined to stay out of the host environment.
19:26	justin_smith	imanc: that would not accept (foo a)
19:26	justin_smith	imanc: the other def will
19:27	noonian	imanc: the original one allows you to call it like (foo a) without throwing an exception as long as the body can deal with nil arguments gracefully
19:27	justin_smith	imanc: in fact, it would even work as (foo)
19:27	imanc	ahhh.. .awesome!
19:28	{blake}	Lewix: I came from Ruby (i.e., that was the language I was using professionally) and while Ruby was easier to get started in, Clojure has been easier to get to the details of.
19:28	Lewix	{blake}: im gonna use it then if i like it convince my team to use it for our next service
19:28	{blake}	Lewix: Go for it. It's worth it just for the discipline and the mindset.
19:28	Lewix	{blake}: i'll have to fight someone else who's learning go (and people in the office who like go including me)
19:29	Lewix	{blake}: oh great - i also started with ruby, and use it mostly
19:29	{blake}	I think I listed a dozen languages yesterday I'd programmed in, and I liked most of them. It's okay to like multiple things. Just ask yourself: What choice makes you a better programmer?
19:29	Lewix	ruby gets messy
19:29	Lewix	^^
19:30	Lewix	(rails)
19:30	Lewix	ok guys enough talking clojure time
19:30	Lewix	thanks for the useless chitchat
19:30	Lewix	always good for relaxing :)
19:31	{blake}	Lewix: Good luck.
19:32	kir	"Clojure Is the New C" - interesting take on why Clojure
19:37	justin_smith	kir: link?
19:38	hellofunk	kir: i wonder if that article suggests that like C, Clojure is a good tool to build other tools (i.e. languages) with
19:39	amalloy	justin_smith: it looked to me like another talk by bob martin based on wholly unsubstantiated claims
19:43	hiredman	amalloy: no different then many other claims made every day about programming here and elsewhere
19:43	hiredman	than
19:43	hiredman	then?
19:43	justin_smith	than is the comparitive
19:43	hiredman	but new c seems really weird
19:44	amalloy	hiredman: i dunno about "no different than". bob reaches for some grander claims than most
19:44	justin_smith	oh that one
19:44	justin_smith	haha
19:44	hiredman	I do want a c to jvm compiler
19:44	amalloy	anyone remember "the last programming language"?
19:44	hiredman	vaguely
19:45	amalloy	in which he claims that clojure is so perfect it could realistically be the last programming language anyone ever invents
19:45	amalloy	or uh something like that. it's been a while since i listened to it
19:45	hiredman	well, I mean, that is pretty spot on, no?
19:45	hiredman	:P
19:46	hellofunk	amalloy: someone needs to show him the Sussman lecture about how all programming langauges we have are already obsolete
19:47	noonian	I find him fun to listen to even if I don't always agree with him
19:52	{blake}	The last programming language was COBOL.
19:53	{blake}	So easy, even your secretary could write programs.
19:53	justin_smith	s/secretary/boss
19:54	justin_smith	a big motivation was the theory that management would actually be able to read the code
19:54	hellofunk	i still remember my elementary school librarian telling me about her Cobol work history
19:55	{blake}	My dad told me one of his clients gleefully told him how COBOL would make his services unnecessary.
20:15	hellofunk	what would it entail to lauch a local web server like normal from the REPL and have other computers in the same home/office network have access to what it serves
20:15	justin_smith	hellofunk: give them a URL with your port number in it, and be sure your firewall settings leave that port open
20:16	justin_smith	hellofunk: we would do that a lot at the web shop I used to work at
20:16	justin_smith	hellofunk: also, with linux and OSX at least, the machine will set it up so other people can navigate to http://your-host-name.local
20:16	justin_smith	for whatever the name of your machine is
20:16	hellofunk	you make it sound pretty simple
20:17	justin_smith	it is!
20:17	hellofunk	cool
20:17	justin_smith	IDK about windows though
20:17	justin_smith	I think windows makes these things harder
20:17	hellofunk	on OSX i wouldn't think the default is to just let any other machine access what you serve, is it?
20:17	justin_smith	but linux / osx, very simple
20:17	amalloy	hellofunk: just depends what interface you bind your server to
20:18	amalloy	if you bind to localhost, then no; a public ip, then yes
20:18	justin_smith	hellofunk: on the contrary, if you don't make some effort to run a network service local only, other machines on your local network can access it
20:18	hellofunk	interesting.
20:18	justin_smith	though yeah, for example nrepl binds to localhost, for good reason
20:22	kir	justin_smith : pardon the late reply(phone) : the link : http://www.infoq.com/presentations/clojure-c
20:23	justin_smith	kir: yeah, found it in the meantime, thanks
20:26	kir	my take: clojure is more complex then C/Go(feature wise - has much wider abstraction); much of what exists in Clojure can be and inevitabily will be duplicated in those langauges(as can be said for assembler vs C)
20:28	kir	... clojure provides feature and implements them in a highly consistant and integrated manner - far better then those languages could; accept the initial conceptual learning curve, become a better programmer, use Clojure
20:29	kir	features*
20:30	AeroNotix	what's that library for converting between naming styles?
20:30	AeroNotix	like fooBar -> foo-bar
20:30	justin_smith	AeroNotix: camel-snake-kebab
20:30	AeroNotix	justin_smith: thanks!
20:30	justin_smith	or was it camelSnake_ke-bab
20:30	justin_smith	something like that :)
20:31	AeroNotix	:)
20:32	zacts	kir: key point asm > clojure :-D
20:32	zacts	(joking)
20:34	kir	zacts
20:34	kir	asm?
20:34	justin_smith	I think we should bring back the old rule about Haskell, but for evangelism in general
20:34	justin_smith	kir: assembler macros for generating machine code
20:35	zacts	sorry kir I misread your post, I was trying to make a joke off of it
20:35	tomjack	wonder why they didn't use Guava
20:35	zacts	It was to say that I thought the post was putting down clojure
20:35	zacts	so I said, oh well that proves asm > clojure as a joke
20:35	kir	zacts: k
20:35	zacts	but I had the post all wrong anyway
20:36	kir	zacts : yep :)
20:41	kir	Wanted to add before I go: I'm comming from C++ and recently Go - learning Clojure makes me a more concise and more thoughtfull programmer in those languages; for what it's worth.
20:43	zacts	indeed
21:14	dnolen	methinks needs Figwheel https://www.dropbox.com/s/0o6pa3jdsueeovc/react-native-editing.mp4?dl=0
21:19	tomjack	huh. I don't think the idea of writing native apps in cljs had occurred to me
21:20	tomjack	I thought apple required using objc?
21:23	dnolen	tomjack: not since iOS 7, official JavaScriptCore bridge
21:23	dnolen	also React Native works for Android
21:23	dnolen	(though that work is still underway)
21:23	tcrayford____	dnolen: isn't official jscore really slow?
21:24	tcrayford____	(iirc there's still no JIT in the javascriptcore that you can use inside apps)
21:27	dnolen	tcrayford____: not true anymore as far as I know
21:28	dnolen	tcrayford____: and the JSC fast interpreter was never slow, but anyways JIT is on now from what I've heard
21:28	dnolen	tcrayford____: FB Groups app is already React Native only
21:28	tcrayford____	damn
21:29	tcrayford____	(to be fair, last time I used JSC was in 2011)
21:29	cfleming	dnolen: Unfortunately seems to be confirmed that there's no JIT for standalone JSC - not an issue for 99% of apps though.
21:29	dnolen	tcrayford____: it's a come a very, very, very long way in 4 years
21:29	dnolen	tcrayford____: on many benchmarks for ClojureScript it is on par or besting V8
21:30	cfleming	dnolen: i.e. FB groups is obviously responsive and does no heavy lifting
21:30	tcrayford____	dnolen: yea, damn
21:31	tcrayford____	dnolen: it's used by safari right? guess that's all the impetus they need to sink a tonne of money into it
21:31	dnolen	cfleming: ah K good to now, still I suspect for many applications modern JSC perf even non-JITed is great
21:31	dnolen	tcrayford____: yeah JSC is the Safari / Mobile Safari engine, they've got some serious compiler heads on it now
21:32	cfleming	dnolen: yeah, no doubt. WKWebView does JIT on iOS 8, it seems: https://twitter.com/awfulben/status/561015998610821120
21:35	dnolen	tcrayford____: https://www.webkit.org/blog/3362/introducing-the-webkit-ftl-jit/
21:36	dnolen	and SpiderMonkey is finally catching up too now that they have Generational GC
21:36	tcrayford____	dnolen: dope, thanks!
21:36	cfleming	dnolen tcrayford____ : I love that article, one of the most interesting things I've read in ages
21:36	cfleming	dnolen: on-stack replacement in JS engines is amazing.
21:37	tcrayford____	cfleming / dnolen like 3 (?) years ago I took several months off and studied the luajit source code intensively. Compiler optimization is such a fun topic
21:39	cfleming	tcrayford____: Nice, LuaJIT is an amazing piece of work.
21:40	tcrayford____	yeah, it's super intense. It's also amazingly readable (or was back then) - the whole thing is like 40k lines of C + 8k lines of assembly
21:47	Lewix	I find it quite difficult to get going with clojure - what materials did you use to learn it
21:48	Lewix	I tried a couple of different books but none of them hold my attention long enough
21:49	justin_smith	Lewix: have you tried 4clojure or the clojure koans at all?
21:49	Lewix	i dont think so
22:09	n0n3such	sometimes the best way to learn a language is to pick a project and dig in
22:09	n0n3such	worked for me with scala
22:09	n0n3such	ready to try clojure now
22:28	danlentz	monotonic timestamps
22:28	danlentz	https://gist.github.com/danlentz/301a0f056ffd9c6605a9
22:39	gfredericks	danlentz: swap!+constantly = reset!
22:39	danlentz	yup. doh
22:39	danlentz	gfredericks: thanks
22:41	gfredericks	danlentz: this smells racy
22:44	TimMc	gfredericks: That's the best way to suss out race conditions. Just run it a few times. :-)
22:45	justin_smith	give it a head start
22:45	danlentz	yes, that is what has been working for me :)
22:45	gfredericks	yep looks like collisions
22:46	gfredericks	any kind of "deref the atom, the swap based on what you see" is racy
22:47	justin_smith	danlentz: either put both stamps-this-tick and last-time inside a single map in an atom, or make them refs and use a transaction
22:47	danlentz	yeah
22:48	sdegutis	Can you do monads in Clojure?
22:48	gfredericks	and if you use a single atom you have to do the logic inside the swap function
22:48	gfredericks	sdegutis: it's less rewarding
22:48	sdegutis	gfredericks: why?
22:48	justin_smith	sdegutis: yes, but it performs poorly and it usually isn't especially useful
22:48	gfredericks	a) no type checker to fit the pieces together for you
22:48	gfredericks	b) the pertinent 0-arg functions don't work
22:48	gfredericks	I forget what they're called
22:49	sdegutis	curry?
22:49	sdegutis	bind or something?
22:49	gfredericks	mzero and something else
22:49	p_l	I'd add reason 0 = You're trying to escape time-travel hell in your code
22:49	sdegutis	justin_smith: why wouldn't it be useful?
22:49	sdegutis	To be fair, I don't understand why monads are useful even in Haskell.
22:50	gfredericks	sdegutis: I think clojure's for syntax is a decent approach for lots of monadic things
22:50	p_l	sdegutis: because they simplify what was previously a rather convoluted mess
22:50	gfredericks	there's just not a once-for-all impl of all the monad infrastructure like in haskell
22:50	p_l	but generally, monads are much less useful if you don't have heavy slant on purity that Haskell has
22:50	sdegutis	p_l: oh
22:51	p_l	sdegutis: Monads in Haskell started out from a certain Glasgow extension for doing IO ;)
22:51	sdegutis	neat
22:51	p_l	which replaced declaring main to be a function that consumes future and spits past, or something like that
22:51	p_l	(actually it might have been the other way around)
22:52	sdegutis	weird
22:52	sdegutis	But that's basically what monads seem like to me.
22:52	p_l	sdegutis: generally, Monads in Haskell are kinda a way to make impure seem pure
22:53	gfredericks	it's nice to have that stuff tracked in the type system though; e.g. the java type system has no idea where your side effects are
22:53	justin_smith	p_l: I'm pretty sure consumes past and returns future
22:53	justin_smith	yeah, and clojure monads aren't as useful because they can't segregate side effects really
22:53	p_l	justin_smith: I recall it was a bit non-intuitive
22:54	gfredericks	but this kind of syntax ends up being plenty useful even though it smells like monads: https://github.com/gfredericks/test.chuck#for
22:55	gfredericks	you could make a similar thing for Maybe
22:55	p_l	anyway, pseudo-monads were a patch on ills of Haskell (Most of Haskell monads are not, actually, monads)
23:26	tomjack	doesn't :let implement return?
23:26	tomjack	and :when is mzero
23:27	tomjack	but only usable in 'for-notation', hmm
23:29	tomjack	well
23:29	tomjack	only need them otherwise if you want to write something monad-polymorphic
23:30	tomjack	which I guess could be quite useful..
23:37	Mr0rris0	i found an old book on basic
23:37	Mr0rris0	is that of any use?
23:38	Mr0rris0	was in the loft in my barn
23:38	Mr0rris0	it looks pretty old, its just a student handbook thing for learning basic
23:41	Mr0rris0	whats that long number mean (possibilities) (~possibili@2601:9:280:b6b:5126:6189:b7b2:4
23:41	justin_smith	looks like a truncated ipv6 address
23:42	justin_smith	there should be 3 more hex digits at least
23:42	Mr0rris0	lol no clue what that means
23:42	justin_smith	Mr0rris0: domain names map to ip addresses
23:42	Mr0rris0	ya
23:42	justin_smith	ipv6 uses a different format from ipv4
23:43	Mr0rris0	truncated?
23:43	justin_smith	truncated means the end is cut off
23:43	Mr0rris0	oh
23:44	justin_smith	~foo@address is shortand for the user foo's home directory when you log into that address
23:44	clojurebot	Roger.
23:44	Mr0rris0	foo?
23:44	justin_smith	~forget foo@address
23:44	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
23:44	clojurebot	foo is learn foo
23:44	Mr0rris0	whats foo
23:44	Mr0rris0	lol
23:45	justin_smith	foo is the standard metasyntactic variable
23:45	justin_smith	in your example it was possibili
23:45	Mr0rris0	that bit before the @ sign?
23:45	justin_smith	so I was saying for any given name n ~n@address means the home directory of n when you log into address
23:46	justin_smith	yeah
23:48	Mr0rris0	i watched a little bit of that Go video
23:48	Mr0rris0	that one guy promoting Go alot earlier linked a youtube vid
23:49	Mr0rris0	i only got to see the first bit of it but it looked cool
23:49	Mr0rris0	i know so little but it seemed a little like the IRC
23:49	Mr0rris0	just in how it looked
23:49	rhg135	it's all nice until you call foreign-libs
23:49	Mr0rris0	how to work it ive got no clue but i managed to get little scripts going to run my game from irc
23:50	Mr0rris0	whats foreign-libs
23:50	Mr0rris0	whats it for
23:50	rhg135	erm, i meant any code you didn't write
23:50	dmitrig01	hey all! core.typed question. I’m using clojure.tools.logging, and when I do (log/error …), which is a macro that expands into a bunch of calls to other tools.logging functions… I’m fine providing them type annotations, but a bunch of them are methods on a protocol, and I don’t know how to annotate that
23:51	rhg135	mutability + code out of your control is a pain
23:51	Mr0rris0	like cutting stuff out and putting other things in?
23:51	Mr0rris0	whats mutability, i see that word alot
23:51	rhg135	things that can change basically
23:52	Mr0rris0	right i saw how it was hard to customize or edit things that had been done already
23:52	Mr0rris0	the stuff that is already in irc looks different than things people make for it
23:52	rhg135	it gets hard once you can call code and be unsure if you're data hasn't been changed
23:53	Mr0rris0	hmm
23:53	Mr0rris0	whats call code
23:53	Mr0rris0	remember all the shit and not need copy paste?
23:54	justin_smith	or more generally, to get a big picture view of what the invarients of a given piece of code might be. When things are immutable you know exactly where things propage (arguments and return values)
23:54	justin_smith	Mr0rris0: when you use a function that you already defined, that's calling the function
23:54	rhg135	yes as justin_smith says flow becomes explicit
23:54	justin_smith	s/propage/propagate
23:55	Mr0rris0	this is aggrigatin
23:55	Mr0rris0	:P
23:56	Mr0rris0	i need a new dictionary
23:56	Mr0rris0	or just use the old one
23:56	Mr0rris0	:D lol
23:56	Mr0rris0	uncommon words to me
23:56	Mr0rris0	seems theres a few in everything i read about this stuff
23:59	Mr0rris0	its bugging me all of the things i dont know
23:59	Mr0rris0	lol but im happy about it, dunno why