#clojure – 2015-01-29

2015-01-29

00:33	Draggor	Am I missing something? How do I make the lein script not download clojure every time.
00:35	amalloy	it will only download clojure if the project you're building requires a version of clojure that you don't already have downloaded
00:40	Draggor	How do I install clojure so that lein sees it? I've got the zip downloaded and extracted.
00:40	Draggor	linux platform
00:41	rhg135	It downloads it from maven central
00:43	Draggor	I get that, but it seems to do it every time I issue a lein command.
00:44	rhg135	Is ~/.m2 there?
00:44	Draggor	Yep
00:44	Draggor	how long should it take to get into lein repl?
00:45	rhg135	~1s for me
00:45	clojurebot	I don't understand.
00:46	Draggor	About 6s here.
01:16	amalloy	Draggor: are you inside a lein project when `lein repl` appears to download clojure? if so, can you gist its project.clj?
01:19	Draggor	amalloy: So it seems to not be downloading it, but still has a very slow startup time of 6 seconds when I'm inside of a lein project.
01:21	Draggor	or apparently longer, that one was 15s
01:21	amalloy	lein's startup time is legit pretty terrible. there are some things you can do to speed it up, but also you don't have to start lein very often; you can leave a repl or an nrepl session up for a long time
01:23	amalloy	like i start up lein repl ~never (i use an emacs interaction plugin instead). the emacs plugin takes a silly amount of time to start too, but i only start it once or twice a day and then live in it for the rest of the day, so that awfulness is not such a big deal
01:26	mgaare	you can also use this https://github.com/ninjudd/drip
01:26	Draggor	I'm poking at getting vim + fireplace going
01:27	Draggor	The documentation for it all is not the best I suppose.
01:32	amalloy	vim is fine
01:33	amalloy	if you prefer vim to emacs, you don't need to switch just to use clojure
01:39	Draggor	amalloy: well, in terms of getting a slime like thing going, one of this is clearly way more effort than the other, heh.
01:39	amalloy	which one?
01:40	Draggor	vim + fireplace and the rest
01:41	wgwgzsdfwe	,(.shiftLeft 2 (biginteger 8))
01:41	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: shiftLeft for class java.lang.Long>
01:41	wgwgzsdfwe	This once worked.
01:48	wgwgzsdfwe	,(.shiftLeft (biginteger 8) 2)
01:48	clojurebot	32
01:48	wgwgzsdfwe	Oopsies.
01:54	Draggor	Where did I put all my old clojure projects... How hard is upgrading from around 1.0.0 to current?
02:02	sm0ke	never heard someone using 1.0.0
02:03	sm0ke	wow must be very old
02:14	devn	Draggor: It's not the end of the world.
02:14	devn	Draggor: why do you need to upgrade?
02:14	devn	I realize you want to, just asking why you need to.
02:15	devn	A particular library, new development on the project, just making it work?
02:19	clj123	What is the best way to concat more than 2 lists for eg. ['a' 'b' 'c'] + ['d' 'e' 'f'] + ['g' 'h' 'i'] => ['a' 'b' 'c' 'd' 'e' 'f' 'g' 'h' 'i']
02:30	bucketh3ad	clj123: concat takes more than one argument, so that should work just fine
02:31	ianhedoesit	,(into [] (concat [\a \b \c] [\d \e \f] [\g \h \i]))
02:31	clojurebot	[\a \b \c \d \e ...]
02:32	ianhedoesit	,(into [] (concat ['a' 'b' 'c'] ['d' 'e' 'f'] ['g' 'h' 'i']))
02:32	clojurebot	[a' b' c' d' e' ...]
02:33	ianhedoesit	clj123: note that the quote is not used as a character literal
02:33	clj123	ok thanks
02:34	clj123	should have been double quote. clojure treats single quote differently
02:35	ianhedoesit	when trying to run my tests (`lein test` or `lein midje`), I'm getting a 'FileNotFoundException: Could not locate <project>/handler__init.class or <project>/handler.clj on classpath: , compiling:(<project>/core/handler_test.clj:1:1)'
02:36	ianhedoesit	I can't figure out what is different about this project vs the last project I had which works fine and runs tests fine. the structure is the same as far as I can see.
02:38	Draggor	devn: no real reason, I just haven't tried running the old code with the latest version.
02:47	ianhedoesit	never mind me. I made a silly mistake.
03:39	Empperi	cfleming: debugging works again, at least mostly. let values are not shown and evaluate expression is broken
03:41	cfleming	Empperi: When you say let values are not shown, what do you mean?
03:41	cfleming	Empperi: Which version of IntelliJ are you using?
03:42	Empperi	14, latest
03:42	Empperi	just updated today
03:43	Empperi	and I mean that they are not shown in the debugger as values
03:43	Empperi	only function parameter values are
03:43	Empperi	same problem with custom macro parameters
03:43	Empperi	that I kinda understand though
03:43	Empperi	but the thing I'm missing most is the evaluate expression
03:44	Empperi	I want to stop the execution to specific point, then evaluate some expressions when the application is in certain state
03:44	Empperi	eg. right now I have a bug in my code which integration tests showed
03:44	Empperi	but for it to happen my database has to be in certain state
03:44	Empperi	which my tests do initialize
03:45	Empperi	now, when evaluate expression worked all I had to do was to place a breakpoint to certain part of my code, then when the execution stops I could query the state of the database via evaluate expression
03:45	Empperi	since the tests use in-memory H2 there would be all kinds of hassle to make it persistent
03:46	Empperi	can be done, but would be so much easier :)
03:46	cfleming	Empperi: So evaluate expression should work in 0.1.44. Do you get any exceptions in the log when you try it?
03:47	Empperi	cfleming: no, I can evaluate a single value but not a clojure expression
03:47	Empperi	it doesn't show the clojure logo in the evaluate expression window which I think it did before
03:47	Empperi	it seems to be an ordinary java expression evaluation
03:48	cfleming	Empperi: I use it myself, it works fine for me. Let values should be shown, but there's one issue - if the value you want is closed over (i.e. you're in an anonymous fn of some kind) they will be shown as fields on 'this'
03:48	Empperi	well, not showing here :(
03:48	cfleming	Empperi: If that's not the case, can you send a screenshot of the locals view?
03:48	Empperi	I'm kinda used to checking the value of this by now
03:48	Empperi	sure
03:48	cfleming	Actually, of the locals view and the code around the stopped line.
03:49	cfleming	When you try to evaluate a Clojure expression, what happens? Do you get an error?
03:49	Empperi	yes
03:50	Empperi	eg it breaks on foo-bar at -
03:50	Empperi	which would indicate it's using java evaluation
03:50	cfleming	Empperi: Yeah, it might be getting confused about the context somehow.
03:51	cfleming	Empperi: I'm trying to fix some bugs in expr eval in 13.1, but 14 has always worked well so far. Interestingly, the 13.1 bug is that it seems to be using a Java context - might be the same bug
03:51	cfleming	Empperi: I do see the Clojure icon by the eval text field though
03:53	Empperi	not here :/
03:54	Empperi	cfleming: sent mail
03:55	Empperi	idea says plugin version is 0.1.44
03:55	cfleming	Empperi: Thanks - you're stopped at the line marked in red there?
03:55	Empperi	yes
03:56	cfleming	Empperi: That is very strange. Is this a work project? Can you send it to me so I can try to reproduce?
03:57	Empperi	unfortunately yes, this is a work project
03:57	cfleming	Empperi: If not, I'll try to fix the 13.1 bug, since that might actually be the same cause.
03:57	cfleming	Ok
03:57	Empperi	so can't send the source code
03:57	cfleming	When I have this other bug fixed I'll send you a build to try to see if it fixes your problem.
03:57	Empperi	nice
03:58	cfleming	Empperi: If you keep stepping in from that line, do you ever see the locals appear?
03:59	Empperi	sometimes
03:59	Empperi	but only in function parameters
03:59	Empperi	never with let locals
03:59	cfleming	Empperi: See, there's a problem - JDI debugging is line based. So there's at least three points that you might be stopped on at that line - update-in, map, or fn
03:59	Empperi	but I can access all of them from evaluate expression just by typing the name
03:59	Empperi	but can't type clojure code there
04:00	cfleming	Empperi: That is really weird, I have no idea how that's working
04:00	Empperi	and yeah, I've already got used to having to keep stepping several steps forward before I get my locals in view
04:00	Empperi	this used to work just fine
04:00	cfleming	Empperi: You get all the weird ones :/
04:00	Empperi	hehe, sorry for being such a pain in the ass :)
04:01	cfleming	Empperi: Hehe, no worries - hopefully this other bug will turn out to be the same
04:01	Empperi	would be nice :)
04:01	cfleming	If I'm lucky I'll get that fixed tonight - will let you know
04:01	Empperi	but anyway, I have this problem both on windows and mac
04:01	cfleming	Ok, thanks
04:01	Empperi	so this time it's not operating system related
04:01	cfleming	I've been working on the other one this afternoon, I might have to consult JetBrains on this one
04:02	Empperi	no worries, you're doing a great job
04:02	Empperi	and even more awesome I have this direct feedback link to you :D
04:03	Empperi	cfleming: oh, btw the exact Idea version number is 14.0.3
04:04	cfleming	Empperi: Ok, thanks. It mostly matters whether it's 13.1 or 14, since in 14 they changed a bunch of stuff in the debugger
04:04	Empperi	yeah, the debugger worked fine in 13.1
04:05	Empperi	at least as far as I remember
04:05	Empperi	been using 14 since it came out
04:06	cfleming	Empperi: Well, the debugger got broken in Cursive, in 0.1.43, then I fixed it up for 0.1.44. For almost everyone it's now way better than it was :)
04:07	Empperi	cfleming: :)
04:07	cfleming	Empperi: Looking at your screenshot, it's executing update-in since your top thread frame is still mark-double-xmls, not some anonymous fn
04:09	cfleming	Empperi: You're not doing anything that would change bytecode, right? A JVM agent or anything like that?
04:09	Empperi	no
04:09	Empperi	this is just plain ol' clojure
04:09	cfleming	Empperi: Because the locals display is all IntelliJ, I actually want to change that but I can't
04:09	Empperi	running on top of http-kit normally, but in this case through clojure.test
04:10	Empperi	opened a repl via leiningen
04:10	cfleming	So if it's not showing the locals, it's because IntelliJ isn't finding them in the stack frame context
04:10	Empperi	directly from idea
04:10	cfleming	I don't get to do anything till long after that
04:10	Empperi	so no remote connections or such things from terminal launced lein
04:11	Empperi	then I just execute the tests from the active namespace to repl
04:11	Empperi	and debugger gets caught but doesn't show anything
04:15	m00nlight_	What's the right way for an require library to access its own resource file? I can do it in the library's repl, but when I use the library in another project, it report an "Not a file" error of the resource file
04:15	m00nlight_	I use the io/resource to access the file under "resources/" directory
04:20	tomjack	m00nlight_: you're trying something like: file at project-a/resources/foo/bar.txt, then in project-b, (io/resource "foo/bar.txt") ?
04:21	m00nlight_	tomjack: No, in fact, I only require the library, the library itself will need the "resources/file.dict" of its own
04:22	m00nlight_	tomjack: but when I require the file in another project, it report an error like "Not a file: jar:file:/home/m00nlight/.m2/repository/clj-cn-mmseg/clj-cn-mmseg/0.1.2/clj-cn-mmseg-0.1.2.jar!/CNCharacter.freq, compiling:"
04:23	m00nlight_	I use (io/file (io/resource "file.freq")) in the library code, I want to know is it the right way?
04:25	tomjack	what do you want to do with the file?
04:25	tomjack	you're not going to be able to call io/file on that
04:26	m00nlight_	It's just an dictionary for language processing
04:26	m00nlight_	so only (io/resource "file.dict"), you mean?
04:27	tomjack	right
04:28	clgv	m00nlight_: you can open inputstreams from URLs returned by io/resource
04:28	tomjack	you can e.g. (slurp (io/resource path))
04:28	tomjack	or, yeah, (io/input-stream (io/resource path))
04:28	tomjack	(io/reader (io/resource path))
04:29	m00nlight_	So maybe the doc here https://clojuredocs.org/clojure.java.io/resource need update?
04:29	m00nlight_	What's the difference? Why use io/file will cause not a file error on another project?
04:29	tomjack	yes, that's a bad example
04:29	clgv	m00nlight_: more use cases could be added, but it is not wrong
04:29	tomjack	well, sure
04:30	tomjack	but say you uberjar and run in production
04:30	tomjack	boom?
04:30	clgv	the use of a global var for the file is horrible anyway
04:32	tomjack	m00nlight_: the difference is that, in the example, it is assumed that "hello.txt" is on the classpath because you're inside the project, and the project's files on the filesystem are directly on your classpath
04:32	tomjack	so io/resource will return a file:/ URL, from which the path can be extracted to get a File
04:33	tomjack	but e.g. (io/resource "clojure/core.clj") will return a jar:file:/ URL, which a File can't represent
04:34	egli	tomjack: so how do I pack schema files that I need for schema validation. Can't I put them in resources?
04:35	tomjack	you can
04:35	egli	tomjack: you are saying that (StreamSource. (io/file (io/resource schema))) is not going to work in an uberjar?
04:35	tomjack	right
04:36	tomjack	use (StreamSource. (io/input-stream (io/resource schema))) or (StreamSource. (io/reader (io/resource schema))) I guess
04:36	m00nlight_	tomjack: (slurp (io/resource "file.dict")) also work, right?
04:37	egli	tomjack: thanks, I'll try that
04:38	tomjack	,(apply str (take 30 (slurp (clojure.java.io/resource "clojure/core.clj"))))
04:38	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No implementation of method: :make-reader of protocol: #'clojure.java.io/IOFactory found for class: nil>
04:38	tomjack	shucks
04:38	tomjack	it should work for you :)
04:39	m00nlight_	tomjack: Thanks a lot, I will try it
04:53	m00nlight_	tomjack: Solved, Much thanks
04:53	clj123	what is the purpose of '@' in clojure. While using one http lib I see code like (:status @response) (:body @response). When I try using '@' using a test hash table it doesn't work.
04:54	sm0ke	clj123: ##(doc deref)
04:54	lazybot	⇒ ------------------------- clojure.core/deref ([ref] [ref timeout-ms timeout-val]) Also reader macro: @ref/@agent/@var/@atom/@delay/@future/@promise. Within a transaction, returns the in-transaction-value of ref, else returns the most-recently-committed value of... https://www.refheap.com/96621
04:54	sm0ke	clj123: it is applicable only on @ref/@agent/@var/@atom/@delay/@future/@promise
04:55	sm0ke	you cant do ## @{:a 1}
04:55	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap cannot be cast to java.util.concurrent.Future
04:55	sm0ke	just a ## (:a {:a 1}) ; should be enough
04:55	lazybot	⇒ 1
04:56	clgv	clj123: as long as you getting started and are not learning about atoms/refs/etc... just forget about @ ;)
04:58	sm0ke	how do i `install` test namespaces?
04:58	clj123	I see. thanks.
04:58	sm0ke	#leiningen is out of my timezone it seems
04:58	sm0ke	grrr time
04:58	clgv	huh?
04:59	clgv	sm0ke: you want to load a test namespace?
04:59	sm0ke	clgv: well i want to be able to use it from a different project
04:59	sm0ke	clgv: mainly some utils namespaces in test
04:59	clgv	sm0ke: make it separate lib that is in the :dev dependencies
04:59	sm0ke	regular helper functions for test i wrote, not (deftest..) etc
05:00	clgv	sm0ke: other approaches will be hacks.
05:00	sm0ke	wth
05:01	sm0ke	cant i force lein to do that?
05:01	clgv	one of these hacks: you could have the "test" directory as additional "source" directory instead of a test directory
05:01	clgv	or a third source directory "test-utils"
05:02	clgv	i.e. source dirs "src", "test-utils" and test dir "test"
05:03	sm0ke	hurmm can i add a single file to source? let me check the epic sample lein project.clj
05:03	clgv	but the separate lib is probably the best choice since you will be wanting those tools in other projects as well
05:03	clgv	sm0ke: nope. you need a directory
05:03	sm0ke	ouch
05:04	sm0ke	how bad can packaging a test dir be?
05:04	egli	tomjack: it works! I owe you a beer!
05:04	egli	(inc tomjack)
05:04	lazybot	⇒ 3
05:04	clgv	sm0ke: well then just add it as source directory
05:05	sm0ke	hurmm is that a trap?
05:05	sm0ke	i wonder if deftest will expand at runtime and start running tests every time the jar is loaded
05:05	perplexa	are there any alternatives to clj-time?
05:05	clgv	no. but if you want to include it in the jar, thats an option
05:05	sm0ke	perplexa: joda
05:06	Glenjamin	perplexa: what problem are you having that makes you seek an alternative?
05:06	clgv	sm0ke: what? even if it did you would have to load the namespace first
05:06	sm0ke	clgv: hurmm i hate that lein does not allow classifiers
05:06	clgv	Glenjamin: the optimal solution for sm0ke would be a separate test-utils lib added as :dev dependency in the projects he needs it
05:07	Glenjamin	i agree
05:07	sm0ke	i would other wise just publish the "test" dirs with a classifier "test"
05:07	clgv	sm0ke: but afaik deftest results in a function definition
05:07	perplexa	Glenjamin: the periodic time stuff is broken here, i keep getting "No matching method found: multipliedBy for class org.joda.time.Period" and apart from that, its author is an arrogant jerk, who rather choses to rant about being contacted instead of fixing his stuff ;P
05:07	clgv	sm0ke: midje is not and runs the test when the namespace is evaluated
05:07	Glenjamin	perplexa: :s
05:08	sm0ke	perplexa: harsh words
05:08	Glenjamin	can you link to the github issue?
05:09	perplexa	sm0ke: i wrote to him directly and he called me a 'disrespectful dip shit' for not using the mailing list and followed it up with "I will never pay any attention to any issue you report."
05:09	perplexa	way to go.
05:10	clgv	interesting.
05:10	sm0ke	hurmm
05:10	clgv	perplexa: is the library that good that you will continue using it?
05:10	perplexa	no i will ditch it over this
05:10	sm0ke	clgv: thats not the point
05:11	Glenjamin	Joda is the best lib on java i know of, and with clj-time wrapping joda i suspect your only alternative is interop to joda directly =/
05:11	sm0ke	i wonder if you should directly write to an unknown person asking to fix stuff
05:11	Glenjamin	sm0ke: even if not, the sensible response is "please repost this to ML / github issues"
05:11	perplexa	if he doesn't want to be contacted he shouldn't put his mail in public places
05:11	sm0ke	i agree
05:11	clgv	sm0ke: from a practical point of view that would be a major descion argument for me
05:12	clgv	sm0ke: the other one being: can I fix and maintain it myself ;)
05:12	Glenjamin	fork: friendly-clj-time
05:12	sm0ke	there are 61 contributors to the lib
05:12	sm0ke	be one
05:13	clgv	ah it's clj-time? well, I hardly use that one. only formating timestamps so far ;)
05:16	clgv	I wonder whom he did write. I would guess not one of the top contributors
05:16	perplexa	Glenjamin: gonna look into https://github.com/dm3/clojure.joda-time ;p
05:16	perplexa	oh 'build failing'
05:19	perplexa	http://perplexa.be/Screen%20Shot%202015-01-29%20at%2011.16.42.png
05:19	perplexa	i wonder what's wrong with that guy :D
05:21	clgv	perplexa: why dont you use clj-time instead?
05:21	sm0ke	perplexa: no use getting personal, did you file an issue?
05:21	sm0ke	clgv: i think he is talking about it ony
05:22	perplexa	clgv: yeah using it and it's behaving weird ;p
05:22	perplexa	sm0ke: well since the author told me right away that he's gonna ignore any reported issues, there's probably not a point in it.
05:23	sm0ke	there are 61 authors someone will respond.
05:23	Glenjamin	That's not the point, getting a response like that from a project lead would put me off right away
05:24	clgv	perplexa: one of the top contributors of clj-time gave you that response?
05:25	perplexa	clgv: yes, it came from michael klishin.
05:26	clgv	hard to believe judging from the stuff I read from him. maybe a bad day...
05:28	clgv	perplexa: just create an issue on the project and describe the problem properly. with that many contributors it'll get a fix provided it is not out of the scope of that library
05:31	algernon	fwiv: https://twitter.com/michaelklishin/status/560741014525472769
05:32	cfleming	Ummm... so that's not very cool either.
05:33	algernon	it's not very cool from either side.
05:33	acron^	Ouch
05:33	cfleming	Agreed
05:34	sm0ke	i feel like i am back in highschool
05:34	perplexa	:P
05:36	hellofunk	this is pretty funny: https://github.com/landondyer/kasm/blob/master/LICENSE
05:36	cfleming	hellofunk: Yeah, I had a little smile at that too
05:37	acron^	lol
05:37	acron^	why the hate on RMS ?
05:37	cfleming	Who knows?
05:37	hyPiRion	no idea
05:37	sm0ke	haha thats just sadist
05:40	sm0ke	well RMS is the father of open source (?) and he make a license for his open source project which is not for RMS
05:40	sm0ke	acron^: get it?
05:41	acron^	i get it
05:41	acron^	but why doesn't he want RMS to use it
05:41	sm0ke	:/
05:41	acron^	is he trying to be ironic?
05:41	sm0ke	yea
06:06	zarkone	hello all. Does anybody use clojurescript and cider nrepl? cannot get it work propery..
06:09	Jahkeup_	zarkone: you'll have to connect to a brepl (browser repl)
06:10	Jahkeup_	zarkone: take a look at something like https://github.com/cemerick/austin
06:10	mavbozo	zarkone: what library do you use?
06:11	hellofunk	zarkone: you can use cider and clojurescript together for many tasks, but the REPL is not a part of cider if you need that
06:13	hellofunk	zarkone: cider includes clojure repl, and also lots of cider features work in both clojure and clojurescript. figwheel and weasel are the popular clojurescript repl choices (though personally i rarely need a cljs repl even when working in cljs all day)
06:23	cfleming	Empperi: So this bug I'm fixing is almost certainly not your problem
06:34	zarkone	Jahkeup_: hellofunk thank for response, sorry that i've missed it >..< I start cider-nrepl middleware with ring server. That i start figwheel. Than I connect to the repl and eval this: (piggieback/cljs-repl :repl-env (weasel/repl-env :ip "0.0.0.0" :port 9001))). It works quite ok, reload the code, etc. But source maps do not work properly -- my CIDER go-to-symbol uses old source location, wich was wirst build with cljs... I see, that
06:34	zarkone	source maps are changing in out/ dir. But i cannot understand -- is my browser does not relod maps on fly or is it cider issue? in browser debugger->sources i see old maps =(. cljs options :source-map and :source-map-timestamp are true, :optimization :none
06:34	zarkone	sorry for the long story >..<
06:36	hellofunk	zarkone: i don't know. i just use lein cljsbuild auto all day and never open a repl or deal with that stuff. i've always been happy with my workflow but am not using these more advanced features (and thus not dealing with their problems)
06:36	zarkone	oh, i get used to source docs, param highlight, jump to source...
06:37	zarkone	i miss it so much)
06:37	hellofunk	zarkone: i must be an odd one, but the incredible consistency between clj and cljs allows me to do all my repl experiements in clojure while actually writing cljs code.
06:38	zarkone	hellofunk: actually, may be it's even better, because e.g. wrong arity is just warning, sometimes i do not see it
06:39	zarkone	in cljs
06:39	justin_smith	hellofunk: funkhello
06:40	hellofunk	zarkone: yeah i've learned to just read the errors if any that get spit at the chrome console, perhaps i've gotten rehearsed at writing error-free cljs most of the time, though early on i had to figure them out. i don't think perfect source maps would save me any time now.
06:40	hellofunk	justin_smith: word
06:45	justin_smith	so, turns out Acid Mothers Tempple are playing during Clojure/West, we should make an outing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSJnhpmuuhc
06:49	hellofunk	justin_smith: that band reminds me of Ozric Tentacles
06:50	justin_smith	there are some similarities
06:51	hellofunk	in reading the comments it appears i'm not the only one to make that comparison
06:51	zacts	huh, I wonder where an actual manual / guide for overtone is
06:51	zacts	I don't see one on the homepage
06:52	hellofunk	zacts: there are some demo source files somewhere, let me see if i can find them
06:52	justin_smith	hellofunk: also much like Gong
06:55	zacts	hey I also found this https://github.com/overtone/overtone/wiki
06:55	zacts	I guess the wiki is a work in progress documentation for it
06:56	zacts	also I found this http://vimeo.com/22798433
06:57	zacts	which is the intro to doing overtone live coding
06:58	zacts	hellofunk: hey cool, yeah that could be useful
06:59	cfleming	justin_smith: Wow, that's... pretty freaky.
07:01	zacts	justin_smith: https://github.com/scheme/scsh
07:02	zacts	^ it seems someone may be maintaining scsh a bit
07:02	justin_smith	fascinating
07:02	zacts	but theres a bunch of code that could probably be converted into clojure
07:02	clojurebot	Excuse me?
07:02	zacts	silly bot!
07:02	zacts	:-)
07:02	justin_smith	clojurebot: you're excused
07:02	clojurebot	No entiendo
07:04	cfleming	clojurebot: Porque eres tonto
07:04	clojurebot	I don't understand.
07:04	cfleming	Obviously
07:05	justin_smith	haha
07:06	cfleming	I shouldn't mock the bot, when the singularity happens I'll be first against the wall
07:07	justin_smith	cfleming: in that case, midje users are in trouble
07:07	cfleming	justin_smith: Ba-doom tschhhh
07:08	clgv	cfleming: when the singularity happens clojurebot will choke on an unbalanced paren resulting in a RuntimeException ;)
07:08	clgv	so no danger from it
07:08	clgv	:P
07:08	hellofunk	ah, singularity, the great imaginary doom that will never happen but still scare everyone anyway
07:09	cfleming	By the time the singularity happens, I suspect clojurebot will have figured out how to temporarily disable paredit :-)
07:09	clgv	cfleming: are you saying he is secretly using cursive with paredit? ;)
07:09	cfleming	clgv: Shhhhh
07:10	cfleming	He will be when he gets smart enough, at least ;)
07:13	hellofunk	zacts: https://github.com/mgandin/lightning-talk-clojure-overtone
07:17	zacts	oh cool thanks hellofunk
07:48	arav93	Does persistent hash set have a data type of its own? Or do we mention all as merely set itself?
07:48	arav93	Sorry about asking the same question in #typed-clojure channel as well!
07:48	justin_smith	,(class #{})
07:48	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet
07:49	justin_smith	arav93: oh, you mean in the typed clojure sense? I don't know that part
07:53	clgv	arav93: does your program need to verify that distinction? (better not)
07:53	arav93	clgv: I was trying annotate clojure.set.
07:54	arav93	I wasn't quite sure whether to use persistenthashset or just the normal set
07:55	justin_smith	"normal set"?
07:55	justin_smith	clojure.set is a namespace with operations on PersistentHashSet
07:55	justin_smith	or do you mean java.util.Set or something?
07:59	clgv	justin_smith: he probably means PersistentTreeSet
08:00	clgv	,(type (sorted-set))
08:00	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentTreeSet
08:00	clgv	ok, the distinction of sorted vs unsorted could indeed be valid to some functions
08:09	yocapybara	guys this is not a clojure problem really, but say I'm using java 7 watcher stuff and I get a message that a file is created, any way to definitively tell it isn't being written to short of repeatedly checking its bytes and declaring it finished after a certain period of time? I've tried Files.move atomic move to rename, but it seems a file can be renamed while still being copied. I've tried opening it for random access reading and
08:09	yocapybara	that seems to be permitted also when the file is being copied too.
08:11	yocapybara	have been using interop to do the stream reading and Files.move stuff... but can't find a reliable approach. Will likely try to sidestep the problem but would be nice to resolve it!
08:12	justin_smith	yocapybara: what OS?
08:12	yocapybara	justin_smith: hi there - developing on osx, deploying to ubuntu
08:12	justin_smith	yocapybara: for example, on a Linux system you can move a file while it is being written without interrupting write
08:13	justin_smith	as long as the move is to the same file system
08:13	clgv	yocapybara: does the java api support locks on files?
08:13	yocapybara	justin_smith: yup, I didn't know what would happen and found that to be true :) shoud have perhaps looked it up!
08:13	clgv	yocapybara: so if you control both you could coordinate via file locks
08:14	yocapybara	clgv: I think Java 7 supports locking files, though I thought that was only inside JVM, do the locks interoperate with the OS somehow for this?
08:14	justin_smith	yocapybara: in fact, you can delete a file that another program is using, and the file is still usable by that program until they exit or close the file
08:14	yocapybara	justin_smith: that got me confused the first time I deleted a tomcat log!
08:14	justin_smith	yocapybara: this is also how they hide the video files that make video streaming possible, to prevent keeping a local copy of the video
08:15	yocapybara	justin_smith: that I had no idea of, clever but annoying
08:15	clgv	justin_smith: "security" by obscurity? :P
08:15	Glenjamin	i once zeroed a deleted logfile via /proc because i didn't know how to safely restart an app
08:16	Glenjamin	the /proc stuff is crazy magic
08:16	yocapybara	clgv: aaah from java.nio.channels.FileLock 'This file-locking API is intended to map directly to the native locking facility of the underlying operating system. Thus the locks held on a file should be visible to all programs that have access to the file, regardless of the language in which those programs are written.'
08:16	yocapybara	clgv: this looks worth a try
08:16	clgv	yocapybara: yeah, but you need to control the writer and the renaming process and force them to aquire the log
08:17	justin_smith	clgv: the issue is that everything is accessible on Linux (it's an open system), so DRM stuff is always a sloppy hack
08:17	clgv	justin_smith: DRM is broken by design ;)
08:17	justin_smith	clgv: right, but they can fake it better on closed systems
08:18	yocapybara	clgv: in my case I'm getting large files ftp'ed in - now I can try to configure the ftp server, but I wanted a reliable fallback to see if I can just find if a file is finished. So my plan was watcher API to give me create events, then run off a go block that establishes if it is finished periodically, and then fire the file off to its destination once done
08:18	justin_smith	$mail andyf are there known issues with eastwood arity checking and clojure.java.jdbc/insert! or is it an issue with this codebase?
08:18	lazybot	Message saved.
08:18	justin_smith	anyone else is free to offer an answer, of course :)
08:18	clgv	yocapybara: well, then the file lock might proof useless
08:19	yocapybara	clgv: you don't think the ftp server would lock the file when it was being transferred?
08:19	yocapybara	Glenjamin: I didn't realise you could do that, that's pretty awesome
08:19	clgv	justin_smith: isn't this part of the custom :arglists discussion?
08:20	clgv	yocapybara: I don't know, hence the "might" in the statement ;)
08:20	yocapybara	clgv: no worries :)
08:21	justin_smith	clgv: oh, that bullshit
08:21	justin_smith	yeah
08:21	justin_smith	probably
08:22	justin_smith	Glenjamin: yocapybara: this is also why env vars are inherently insecure
08:22	justin_smith	you can read any process' env via proc
08:22	justin_smith	(don't tell 12factor)
08:22	yocapybara	hahaha
08:23	Glenjamin	justin_smith: if you have perms for that, you'd be able to read config files too?
08:23	yfeng	hi all
08:24	justin_smith	Glenjamin: encrypted properties file, assign the password to nil once you have it decrypted, assign creds to nil once you are authenticated
08:24	justin_smith	Glenjamin: but as we know, there are no reliable methods to reassign env vars inside the jvm
08:24	justin_smith	not portable at least
08:25	Glenjamin	how do you pass in the decryption key?
08:25	justin_smith	ugh, I had this worked out once...
08:25	justin_smith	haha
08:25	clgv	Glenjamin: there is a monkey sitting in the server that is trained to type in the password on server reboots ;)
08:26	Glenjamin	yeah, so i need the same or higher perms than the process owner to read its env var
08:26	justin_smith	Glenjamin: anyway, at the very least, the env isn't any more secure than other methods of providing the creds (though of course keeping them in git is bad)
08:26	Glenjamin	i don't think env vars are any more insecure than other methods
08:26	clgv	or a banana to bribe the monkey
08:26	Glenjamin	^^
08:31	justin_smith	Glenjamin: in all seriousness though, a higher priveleged (and more locked down / more restricted use) account can provide the credentials for unlocking a properties file, and unlike an env var, the jvm process can assign these things to nil once they are unused. This is probably more vigilance than most apps need though.
08:32	justin_smith	Glenjamin: what this does is make it harder for a random takeover of the server process itself to get access to credentials.
08:32	Glenjamin	justin_smith: i'm still not sure how the privileged process can pass the data safely down before it drops perms
08:32	Glenjamin	yeah, i can see how that would be preferrable
08:32	Glenjamin	oh, stdin is safeish?
08:33	justin_smith	Glenjamin: it wouldn't drop perms, it's a separate service. I think things like PAM are designed for this sort of thing.
08:33	justin_smith	Glenjamin: yeah, or even a pipe
08:33	justin_smith	because there is no persistence of what passes through the pipe
08:33	justin_smith	but this is all james-bond stuff, beyond what most of us need to worry about :)
08:34	Glenjamin	yeah, to do automated ops stuff it's realistically going to end up in a file somewhere
08:34	justin_smith	but minimizing the spread of credentials, minimizing scope of permissions, etc. are good things to keep in mind regardless
08:34	Glenjamin	mm
08:34	justin_smith	Glenjamin: right, it's in a file, but the account that has access to that file has very little functionality
08:34	justin_smith	little functionality = small surface of attack
08:34	justin_smith	fewer things that can break
08:35	Glenjamin	isn't it the contents of the file that we're trying to protect?
08:35	Glenjamin	i've lost track a bit :D
08:35	justin_smith	as opposed to my webapp that runs a turing complete compiler at runtime :)
08:35	justin_smith	Glenjamin: like I said - the account that can access the master file does very little
08:35	justin_smith	it does not run a compiler
08:35	justin_smith	it is not turing complete, and we can prove it
08:36	Glenjamin	oh, interesting
08:36	justin_smith	the process running a compiler at runtime only gets those credentials under very specific circumstances, controlled by the other process
08:37	justin_smith	none of this is unbreakable I am sure, but you have degrees of breakability
08:37	Glenjamin	yeah, i like the general idea
08:39	justin_smith	but I think we have to be a little more careful, since we have full access to a compiler at runtime
08:54	dysfun	or we just defer compile time to runtime
08:54	dysfun	depending on how you look at it
09:05	nort_	Hi, I have a .nar file that I want to use from Clojure, but leiningen doesn't seem to support it atm. I found someone with the same problem here, explaning how he could work around it https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/maven-nar/d9BjwT_u2h8 . But I really don't understand how it's solved, or whether I can also do that. Does anyone have an idea how I can easiest access .nar-file from Clojure?
09:05	nort_	I don't have much experience with leiningen, so I wanted to ask here before I dig deeper and risk going in a wrong direction..
09:08	justin_smith	nort_: you may have more luck on #leiningen
09:08	clgv	nort_: projects like overtone directly include native dependencies in subfolders afaik
09:08	justin_smith	nort_: it seems like this wouldn't be a hard thing to add to lein though
09:09	justin_smith	clgv: but do they use the nar file abstraction? I don't know if that is a specific requirement here I guess.
09:10	clgv	justin_smith: I think they do not. so my workaround suggestion would be to extract the nar and build a jar working in leiningen
09:11	justin_smith	clgv: well, a nar is just a renamed jar, but the tooling knows you can't use it without extracting it to disk (since the OS needs to access the contents)
09:11	justin_smith	that's my understanding at least
09:11	justin_smith	not hard to hack, but it would be nice to do it the normal way
09:11	clgv	well the jar setup also extract the native dependencies
09:12	justin_smith	ahh, OK, I did not realize that was automatic
09:12	clgv	but I never used it myself...
09:15	nort_	Ok, I will try in that channel also. But if I understand correctly, it should be possible to extract the .nar, create a .jar from it, and then use that instead?
09:17	clgv	nort_: I guess so. you just have to find an example how clojure projects with native dependencies set this up
09:19	nort_	Ok, thanks
09:35	justin_smith	nort_: actually, it may be as simple as renaming .nar to .jar, I think the naming just indicates it should be handled differently (automatically extracted) and there is no difference in actual structure of the artifact from a jar
09:41	R0B_ROD	Morning
09:41	nort_	justin_smith: Oh, that would be awesome! I will try it out :-) Thanks
09:41	justin_smith	~UGT
09:41	clojurebot	UGT is Universal Greeting Time http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html
09:42	justin_smith	R0B_ROD: UGT to you as well
09:43	R0B_ROD	justin_smith: :) Hey there
09:46	clgv	UGT is **** ;)
09:46	clgv	(don't insert "awesome" for the stars) :P
09:49	R0B_ROD	justin_smith: I learned something new. UGT to you
09:49	R0B_ROD	;>
09:49	R0B_ROD	Im doing the koans
09:50	R0B_ROD	Like you advised the first time I logged in here
09:50	R0B_ROD	I am aka as brainacid
09:50	maio	how would I write macro which takes function as an argument? simplified example (which doesn't work): (defmacro foo [f arg] (f arg))
09:50	R0B_ROD	but after learning more about open-source and true programmers I decided to use a shortened version of my name
09:50	R0B_ROD	lol just talking out loud
09:50	clgv	maio: what exactly is the overall goal? what should the macro do with the function?
09:51	maio	clgv: I want to call that function (in compile time)
09:52	michaniskin__	i once saw a great chart that showed a graph of clojure collections and the protocols they implement
09:52	maio	(defmacro foo [f arg] ((eval f) arg)) seems to work, but is that OK?
09:52	michaniskin__	does anyone know how i can find it again?
09:52	clgv	maio: ah. macros do not work that way. you do not get the function but the symbol referring to the function when the macro is expanded
09:53	clgv	maio: are you sure that you do need a macro. it looks pretty much like you want an higher order function
09:53	clgv	?
09:53	maio	clgv: I think I need macro. My real code is here https://github.com/maio/defns/blob/master/src/defns.clj
09:54	clgv	maio: what is that code supposed to do?
09:54	justin_smith	maio: a macro needs to return at compile time the code for run time
09:55	maio	justin_smith: sure but I want/need to do some stuff at compile time (call some function in this case)
09:56	clgv	maio: but you do not know the function when defining the macro? that is a pretty rare use case - hence the question whether you are sure that is really a solution to your problem
09:56	justin_smith	maio: well, if you want to call the function at compile time, then yeah, there you go
09:56	clgv	justin_smith: you can just use (some-> some-fn-symbol resolve deref) to get hold of the function
09:57	clgv	maio: ^^
09:57	maio	clgv: It's up to the user to specify which (custom) function to use. For example in tests I need different function than in production code (https://github.com/maio/defns/blob/master/test/defns_test.clj)
09:58	clgv	maio: I sense a weird hack lurking there
09:58	maio	:)
09:58	maio	It's just some experiment :)
10:15	melipone	hello, I need to save a java random object to a file and read it back (since there is no getSeed() in java for that). How can I do that with Clojure?
10:17	justin_smith	melipone: you should be able to use the serialization stuff via interop
10:17	justin_smith	melipone: how random of an object?
10:17	justin_smith	could it be replaced by eg. an edn map or a properties file?
10:18	hyPiRion	justin_smith: the java.lang.util.Random kind
10:18	melipone	justin_smith: Just (Random. 143123)
10:18	justin_smith	melipone: why not just store the number part?
10:18	hyPiRion	justin_smith: because there's no getSeed()
10:18	hyPiRion	I'd just do reflection on the object, fetch its seed and put it on disk.
10:18	justin_smith	melipone: ahh, now I get it, sorry
10:19	justin_smith	yeah, reflection may be the easier way, compared to the default serialization methods
10:19	Glenjamin	heh, i read it as "an arbitrary object" too
10:19	justin_smith	glad I'm not alone
10:22	clgv	melipone: do you want to continue the random number sequence from an intermediate state? since seeds are usually preprocessed that wont be possible like that, even with getSeed
10:23	tcrayford____	justin_smith: here's a cool clojure learning for me from today (:or (:cached-thing foo) (expensive-computation foo)) is an amazing fuckup (it always runs the expensive computation, but because it's just caching, things seem fine)
10:23	hyPiRion	melipone: You could use serialization if you want some kind of guarantee that reflection doesn't blow up.
10:23	tcrayford____	(it should be (or (:cached-thing foo) (expensive-computation foo)))
10:23	clgv	melipone: you could store the initial seed and count the invocations. a nasty reflection is probably possible as well
10:23	justin_smith	tcrayford____: haha, so you meant to use or
10:23	justin_smith	lol
10:23	tcrayford____	yeah haha
10:23	clgv	melipone: why exactly do you want to do that?
10:23	tcrayford____	but it worked fine!
10:23	tcrayford____	been in production for a year like that!
10:24	tcrayford____	haha :(
10:24	justin_smith	oh shit!
10:24	Glenjamin	is that because you're not using the value of the expression?
10:24	justin_smith	caching for side effects I guess
10:24	clgv	tcrayford____: sell it as well crafted performance improvement ;)
10:24	tcrayford____	the caching happens outside that code
10:24	justin_smith	Glenjamin: ahh, it's because keyword takes a second, default arg
10:24	gfredericks	~(:or (:cached-thing foo) (expensive-computation foo)) is an amazing fuckup
10:24	clojurebot	Ok.
10:24	Glenjamin	oh right
10:24	justin_smith	Glenjamin: since the first thing had no :or key, the second part is run and returned
10:25	Glenjamin	yeah, i see
10:25	Glenjamin	ouch
10:25	gfredericks	~an amazing fuckup
10:25	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
10:25	tcrayford____	I mean, I say "expensive", it's like a sha256 call over a relatively small string haha
10:25	justin_smith	,(:or (:blah {:blah "OK"}) (:expensive {:expensive "OK"})) ; this is what he did
10:25	clojurebot	"OK"
10:26	gfredericks	tcrayford____: that one-use-of-keyword linter mightacaughtit
10:26	justin_smith	the right return value, but the wrong source
10:26	melipone	clgv: I want to continue the computation later with the same random seed to be able to compare results
10:26	tcrayford____	gfredericks: the one in eastwood?
10:26	tcrayford____	I literally just started using eastwood yesterday haha
10:26	tcrayford____	(it didn't catch it)
10:26	justin_smith	tcrayford____: aye, that is the one linter we have matey
10:26	justin_smith	but the keyword linting is not on by default
10:26	clgv	melipone: why not just store the initial seed for comparison?
10:27	tcrayford____	justin_smith: yeah, I turned all of the linters on yesterday and went through em, then turned off the ones that were super noisy
10:27	clgv	melipone: usually you just specified a concrete seed at the beginning of the computation
10:27	tcrayford____	the keyword one is fun with bootstrap and hiccup: "found :div.span6, did you mean :div.span3" etc
10:27	justin_smith	haha
10:28	tcrayford____	I have https://gist.github.com/tcrayford/0a82713cfb821eeca269 on and my build fails if I create more errors than the current allowed limit
10:29	gfredericks	tcrayford____: yeah eastwood
10:29	tcrayford____	(there are 38 linting errors eastwood spits out on my ~10k lines of code that are incorrect/wrong)
10:30	gfredericks	tcrayford____: if the keyword linter allowed a regex as a whitelist that could fit your html purpose I imagine
10:30	tcrayford____	yeah, that'd be dope
10:30	tcrayford____	(related: I wish kibit let you customize what linters you had on in project.clj)
10:31	melipone	clgv: yeah, I know
10:31	tcrayford____	I have a whole loada code that explicitly does (if thing bar nil), because I wanna remind myself that `nil` comes out of this conditional, don't want it sneaking around
10:32	gfredericks	melipone: this might not help immediately but I've been working on alternative RNGs that would let you do this
10:33	tcrayford____	gfredericks: perf benchmarks for yeller's api handler after eliminating that stupid :or thingy: https://gist.github.com/tcrayford/90756c22354d9ad19783
10:33	tcrayford____	easiest perf win I've ever done haha
10:33	gfredericks	tcrayford____: christmas is saved!
10:34	justin_smith	very nice
10:34	gfredericks	melipone: it also wouldn't be too hard to copypasta the Random.java file from openjdk and adapt it to be serializable
10:35	gfredericks	https://github.com/openjdk-mirror/jdk/blob/jdk7/jdk7/master/src/share/classes/java/util/Random.java
10:35	gfredericks	it does implement Serializable but I don't know what that means :/
10:36	tcrayford____	(lmao if your api's response time isn't measured in hundreds of microseconds)
10:38	melipone	gfredericks: But java.util.Random IS serialiazable
10:39	melipone	gfredericks: so how can I write a serializable java object to file in clojure?
10:39	hellofunk	when running lein cljsbuild, how does it know which profile to use in project.clj?
10:39	justin_smith	hellofunk: dev is the default profile
10:40	justin_smith	well, it's a sum of profiles, and you get like user+dev if you specify nothing else
10:40	justin_smith	you can provide them as arguments to lein with-profile
10:40	justin_smith	lein test activates :test, of coruse
10:40	justin_smith	*course
10:40	mmitchell	ugh, why doesn't this macro eval the (get names :foo) arg so that the resulting def is FOO? ... https://gist.github.com/mwmitchell/2db95d5b2f5264102f3e
10:40	hellofunk	if i have two different cljsbuild profiles, how do i specifiy to lein cljsbuild which one to use?
10:41	daniel__1	lein with-profile profile1 cljsbuild auto
10:41	daniel__1	for example
10:41	hellofunk	daniel__: ah cool, thanks
10:42	justin_smith	actually cljsbuild takes profile args too
10:42	justin_smith	lein cljsbuild auto profile-name
10:42	hellofunk	oh cool
10:43	justin_smith	which specify keys under :builds
10:43	daniel__1	cool justin_smith, didnt know
10:43	hellofunk	forgive my ignorance but where did you look this up exactly justin_smith?
10:43	gfredericks	melipone: googling suggests you want to use ObjectInputStream and ObjectOutputStream
10:43	justin_smith	it's right above "repl support" in the readme
10:43	justin_smith	https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild
10:43	gfredericks	melipone: and likely the best clojure way to do it is using interop and doing whatever you would do in java
10:43	zacts	http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/structure-and-interpretation-classical-mechanics-2
10:43	zacts	^ a new edition of SICM next month
10:44	justin_smith	hellofunk: most of my skill as a dev is a direct outgrowth of my dungeons and dragons hobby as a kid, and learning to be the one that was best at looking up rules :)
10:44	justin_smith	(if you are the best at looking up rules quickly, you can make sure rules that help you are always looked up, and you can "overlook" the ones that don't)
10:44	melipone	gfredericks: okay, I have already a function in Java to do that. I thought there would be something like that built-in in Clojure.
10:45	hellofunk	justin_smith: interesting what you describe would be a build id, while what daniel__ describes would be a profile. i guess they do similar things?
10:45	justin_smith	hellofunk: good point - I may have sidetracked us with the profile thing (or maybe they are related in some way I don't quite know) - but build ids are clearly documented to work
10:46	justin_smith	most things in lein will be parameterized by profile
10:46	hellofunk	justin_smith: most project.clj files i see for cljs development use profiles not build ids, which is why i wondered how they were getting accessed
10:46	justin_smith	aha
10:46	justin_smith	so we all learned something today
10:47	hellofunk	after i get it working, then i'll be able to say i learned something :)
10:52	clgv	melipone: Clojure interop is built-in and you can use it to implement reading/writing with the object streams
10:53	hellofunk	so if your lein profile is :dev you'd pass dev with no colon to lein with-profile ?
10:57	justin_smith	hellofunk: :dev is the default, you don't need :with-profile for that
11:01	hellofunk	justin_smith: daniel__ there must be more to the story. i have a profile as :prod but running lein with-profile :prod and lein with-profile prod cljsbuild auto both result in Warning: profile not found
11:03	clgv	hellofunk: don't use the colon on th command line
11:03	clgv	multiple profiles are separated via comma
11:04	daniel__1	hellofunk: think you'll have to gist your project.clj, second command looks ok
11:04	daniel__1	but unfortunately i have to go
11:05	hellofunk	daniel__ clgv : https://www.refheap.com/96634 but i run this it says :prod not found: lein with-profile prod cljsbuild auto
11:07	justin_smith	hellofunk: the key is :profiles
11:07	justin_smith	hellofunk: not :profile
11:07	clgv	:D
11:07	justin_smith	hellofunk: showing my work https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj#L155
11:08	justin_smith	hellofunk: that example project.clj is a good place to look whenever some config you put in lein is not behaving the way you expected
11:08	hellofunk	ah geez profile vs profiles. yikes how ridiculous.
11:09	justin_smith	hellofunk: easy mistake, lein is very willing to accept invalid keys without complaint
11:09	hellofunk	...which it has indeed been doing for along time for me
11:10	clgv	justin_smith: because they are not necessarily invalid but meaningless to leiningen ;)
11:10	justin_smith	clgv: indeed
11:10	clgv	but some plugin may use them
11:11	justin_smith	right, it just makes the helpfulness that strictness might provide unattainable
11:11	clgv	but a test-mode to list unknown options (for leinigen) would probably help debugging
11:12	justin_smith	clgv: if it was combined with an API to ask each plugin for the keys it considered interesting...
11:13	justin_smith	that actually wouldn't be too hard, though it would require a lot of cooperation to do it retroactively of course
11:14	hellofunk	leiningen is a big black magical box to me that i've never really looked inside for fear of... well, it's so much a box that i don't even know what my fear of it is
11:15	justin_smith	reminds me of that old weird movie, "the cube" - it was a good sci fi / horror kind of thing
11:15	justin_smith	oh no they made "the cube 2, hypercube" - probably fucking terrible
11:26	bacon1989	Was wondering, what would be the best non-relational database I could use with clojure?
11:27	bacon1989	Datomic looks interesting, is that one hard to adopt outside of clojure?
11:27	tbaldridge	bacon1989: Java support for Datomic is pretty solid
11:27	justin_smith	bacon1989: datomic has extensive docs for usage from other languages at datomic.com
11:28	bacon1989	Oh neat
11:29	bacon1989	Wait... Datomic uses Groovy in it's shell?
11:29	justin_smith	bacon1989: the docs show how to use Groovy
11:29	justin_smith	and I guess maybe the default shell is Groovy?
11:30	bacon1989	Is there a C API for Datomic, or is it strictly in the JVM?
11:30	bacon1989	I see a ruby implementation
11:31	justin_smith	that is likely via a server connection
11:31	justin_smith	so you could likely use a TCP lib to use it from C I guess?
11:31	tbaldridge	bacon1989: datomic does provide a REST interface, the Ruby version uses that, or JRuby can use the JVM API
11:31	{blake}	justin_smith: Actually Cube 2 and Cube 0 are both pretty good, but nowhere near the original.
11:32	bacon1989	tbaldridge: I see, that would make sense
11:32	justin_smith	{blake}: good to know!
11:32	bacon1989	Maybe i'll try out Datomic, anyone here familiar with the free nature of Datomic?
11:32	bacon1989	I don't really understand the restrictions
11:32	tbaldridge	bacon1989: sure. although #datomic is probably a better place for this conversation
11:32	justin_smith	bacon1989: I'd ask on #datomic about that
11:32	justin_smith	heh
11:32	bacon1989	Ah, good idea
11:33	justin_smith	also, since it is a commercial project, I am sure you could email support and expect a helpful response
11:37	sveri	Hi, which middleware do I have to apply to parse query-params in get requests?
11:39	justin_smith	sveri: ring.middleware.params/wrap-params
11:39	nkoza	sveri: ring.middleware.params
11:39	justin_smith	they show up as :query-params on the request map
11:39	justin_smith	and also in :params (merged with :form-params)
11:41	sveri	justin_smith: nkoza hm, that was my guess too, but somehow the uri is not parsed, maybe the uri is wrong? /user/login?next=/user/admin
11:41	sveri	query-params is just empty
11:41	jneen	hello! does anyone know of a clojure interface to truffle / graal? or have an opinion on whether making one is worth it?
11:42	sveri	oh, wait, I guess I made a mistake here, obv. I have this uri when rendering the login page, but obv. not when sending the login form to the server
11:42	jneen	its api is based mainly on annotated classes with overloaded methods, so it'd stretch java interop quite a lot i think
11:42	justin_smith	jneen: yeah, annotation is possible, but not simple
11:43	justin_smith	(from clojure that is)
11:43	jneen	hm yeah that's what i gathered
11:43	justin_smith	jneen: how many annotated things do you need?
11:43	justin_smith	you could make some small java shims that call out to clojure
11:43	jneen	well
11:43	jneen	arbitrarily many
11:43	jneen	one per node type
11:43	jneen	so, defined by the language implementer
11:43	jneen	ideally through some sort of macro...
11:44	jneen	but i think that means a lot of funky class generator stuff
11:44	justin_smith	a macro that generates your :gen-class invocation could be doable
11:44	jneen	can gen-class do class annotations?
11:44	sveri	justin_smith: nkoza thank you, I just had my brain think in the wrong direction
11:44	jneen	i've been looking through the docs and haven't found anything
11:45	justin_smith	jneen: yes, gen-class can do annotations
11:45	jneen	oh!
11:45	jneen	um
11:45	jneen	...how...?
11:46	justin_smith	oh wait! deftype can do it
11:46	justin_smith	https://gist.github.com/richhickey/377213
11:47	justin_smith	from the man himself ^
11:47	justin_smith	jneen: actually that looks quite a bit easier than I had imagined
11:47	jneen	oh nice
11:47	jneen	haha i ended up on the same gist
11:47	jneen	cool
11:48	justin_smith	that gist deserves the high page-rank it clearly has
11:48	llasram	jneen: Are the annotations involved runtime annotations?
11:49	jneen	llasram: compile-time i believe
11:49	jneen	(disclosure: i am not very well versed with java stuff)
11:49	llasram	Yeah, so using them with deftype won't help you much
11:49	jneen	yeah but i'd guess gen-class does it?
11:49	llasram	nope
11:49	jneen	aww
11:50	jneen	i thought gen-class was compile-time
11:50	justin_smith	llasram: what is the distinction here?
11:50	stuartsierra	Annotation support isn't really documented anywhere, but you can find examples in the Clojure language tests.
11:50	jneen	hence the requirement for AOT compilation
11:51	justin_smith	llasram: is this about annotation preprocessors for java code generation?
11:51	justin_smith	because yeah, doing that in clojure would be a bit pointless
11:51	llasram	justin_smith: Yah
11:51	jneen	hm
11:52	jneen	i figured gen-class would do that :\
11:52	jneen	maybe it's not possible then
11:52	justin_smith	jneen: well you see, clojure does not generate java code
11:53	justin_smith	it compiles to jvm bytecode with no java step
11:53	jneen	so the annotations are syntactic?
11:53	justin_smith	so if the point of the annotation is to pre-process java source, clojure can't help you do much useful with it
11:53	jneen	i figured that was what they were doing
11:53	justin_smith	jneen: not sure, llasram says they are
11:53	jneen	hrm
11:54	llasram	I'm not sure the one's of interest here are -- it's something to be aware might be the case though
11:54	jneen	yeah i figured they generated bytecode for other classes, but if they generate actual java syntax for other classes it could be weird
11:54	justin_smith	http://lampwww.epfl.ch/~magarcia/graal/replacements-tutorial.html would this be the relevant documentation?
11:55	justin_smith	it's talking about stuff happening during compilation, which would mean no-clojure
11:56	jneen	well
11:56	jneen	it's also compiler infrastructure
11:56	justin_smith	jneen: you could likely define a transform that uses clojure via interop
11:56	justin_smith	jneen: so you could use calls to clojure to assist in the compilation
11:56	justin_smith	that is feasable
11:56	jneen	so like, graal is compiling other lang's code
11:56	justin_smith	right
11:57	justin_smith	and you want graal to use clojure in the process of generating other lang code
11:57	R0B_ROD	Any resources available focusing on Introductory programming with Clojure??
11:57	lazybot	R0B_ROD: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?
11:57	justin_smith	R0B_ROD: yeah, aphyr's clojure info is very introductory
11:57	justin_smith	https://aphyr.com/posts/301-clojure-from-the-ground-up-welcome
11:57	R0B_ROD	I have seen his site, not interesed.
11:57	justin_smith	haha
11:57	justin_smith	it's a good guide though
11:58	seangrove	$seen bbloom
11:58	lazybot	bbloom was last seen quittingQuit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com 5 days and 13 hours ago.
11:58	seangrove	He's gone, he's gone.
11:58	R0B_ROD	Thats ok I have seen the data but not compatible with his implementation and organizing of info.
11:58	R0B_ROD	.. but I am not ...
11:58	godd2	R0B_ROD Clojure for the Brave and True
11:59	R0B_ROD	godd2: Also aware but my poor a** is too broke to pay for information at the moment.
11:59	R0B_ROD	OK. I will continue my current workflow
11:59	{blake}	R0B_ROD: I, personally, did not find any of the introductory works to be sufficient.
11:59	godd2	R0B_ROD you can just read it online: http://www.braveclojure.com/getting-started/
12:00	{blake}	R0B_ROD: I went to Aphy, B&T, got some videos, listened to youtube lectures, bought everyone's book...
12:00	R0B_ROD	{blake}: Indeed I am agreeing but I am not a programmer just a computer enthusiast. I dont even have a specific domain of interest. Just trying to develop some kind of skill-set
12:01	R0B_ROD	godd2: Ah very nice! #Thanks!
12:01	{blake}	R0B_ROD: And I still had to ping-pong around between all of those, plus clojure koans, plus 4clojure, and develop some simple game logic.
12:02	{blake}	R0B_ROD: On the plus side, as you get accustomed to the grammar, Clojure is not a world of secrets or assumptions.
12:02	justin_smith	yeah, clojure lacks magic in many respects, and things are generally explicit though concise
12:02	hiredman	/win 19
12:02	justin_smith	(one of my favorite things about it actually)
12:02	{blake}	R0B_ROD: Also, this chat is indispensible. =P
12:03	R0B_ROD	{blake}: You are the second to be very chatty with me. #!Thanks. First: justin_smith
12:03	{blake}	justin_smith: Me, too. So far every big sticking point I've had was easily resolved by digging into the code--and I've never had to dig deep, because there's generally not a lot of "deep".
12:04	R0B_ROD	{blake}: Thanks for your sequence. I do have the koans but not 4clojure. I will be here so we can share in the future as well.
12:04	{blake}	R0B_ROD: My pleasure. I'd have been in trouble without this group so if I can pay it forward, I will.
12:04	R0B_ROD	{blake}: Very nice attitude. I am glad you will pay it forward.
12:05	{blake}	R0B_ROD: Also, it's fun.
12:06	R0B_ROD	My experience is a little: Haskell, Racket, Python2, Perl, Linux Shell Scripts, basic C/x86_64 Assembly, Arch Linux config and install.
12:06	R0B_ROD	Played with classical FORTRAN just at the surface
12:07	{blake}	R0B_ROD: If you've got Haskell, Clojure should be easier for you than it was for me. I had studiously avoided functional programming (even in Smalltalk, which has quite a few HOFs).
12:07	ToxicFrog	Yeah, a lot of the clojure concepts should be familiar with that background.
12:08	R0B_ROD	BUT this is all at the syntactic and result level, the art of programming or better-said, the systematic methods of creating software is what I want to learn before learning a language
12:08	R0B_ROD	results as in building basic calculators or some very basic text manipulations
12:09	ToxicFrog	Fundamementally, that's something you learn by writing a lot of programs.
12:09	R0B_ROD	I enjoy the combination of Clojure so Im going to try and focus on developing my foundations and learn Clojure to solidify my findings.
12:10	R0B_ROD	ToxicFrog: Reading and debugging a lot of code is also a missed portion of learning fundamentals
12:11	ToxicFrog	R0B_ROD: I file that under "writing programs". You're going to be doing a lot of reading and debugging as part of that process.
12:11	justin_smith	good luck writing working programs without debugging or reading code!
12:11	ToxicFrog	Although I should probably have been more general: you become a better programmer by programming.
12:11	R0B_ROD	ToxicFrog: I dont believe that creation, design and implementation are an all-in-all for everyone. Im not ery creative but very tinkere/disassembler type.
12:11	benmoss	are these warnings something that should be fixed by the libraries maintainer? via (:refer-clojure :exclude [protocol?])?
12:11	benmoss	https://gist.github.com/benmoss/19231a7f5d4b53e973e7
12:12	R0B_ROD	ToxicFrog: Yes I agree with you in your general statement. No doubt
12:12	justin_smith	benmoss: yeah
12:12	justin_smith	benmoss: that should be a very easy PR to do if you feel like giving back :)
12:12	R0B_ROD	ToxicFrog: I mean: I enjoy someone else telling me how to help instead of me creating something useful from scratch
12:12	benmoss	justin_smith: cool, i thought so, i just wanted to verify there wasn’t some reason they weren’t before going ahead and making the PR :)
12:13	ToxicFrog	R0B_ROD: yeah, that's fair. Which is part of why, on reflection, I think that "by programming" is the better formulation.
12:14	ToxicFrog	Since "programming" is a lot broader than "writing programs"
12:14	R0B_ROD	Indeed ToxicFrog ;) :D xD :P
12:14	R0B_ROD	Im just here guys... I dont have any other outlet to the outer-world
12:14	godd2	ToxicFrog here's a pretty good list of the things that programming encompasses (plus some more) http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/computer-science/
12:15	R0B_ROD	I dont have friends-in-flesh... Trying to tap into IRC and make bytecode-friends
12:15	R0B_ROD	;>
12:17	benmoss	justin_smith: ah, i realize now my instinct was correct, these warnings are coming from installing Ultra yesterday (https://github.com/venantius/ultra) which has some stuff that adds fns to clojure.core, including `protocol?`
12:17	ToxicFrog	That sounds familiar. My wife and I are trying to rebuild our social lives after basically losing track of everyone we knew in meatspace.
12:17	benmoss	justin_smith: mentioned here https://github.com/venantius/ultra/wiki/Java
12:17	justin_smith	benmoss: oh, that's weird and kind of evil
12:18	benmoss	justin_smith: yeah makes me inclined to remove it
12:19	ToxicFrog	We still have IRC-friends, but sometimes you just want someone to help bake a cake and then snuggle with.
12:19	R0B_ROD	ToxicFrog: I just live in a town where there isnt real:down2earth folk. Its all superficial, 'oh-what-car-u-drive?', 'got $$$' type culture
12:19	justin_smith	benmoss: you know something about that project was setting off my spidey senses already, now that I am reminded which one it was
12:19	justin_smith	benmoss: "smells like rubby"
12:19	R0B_ROD	ToxicFrog: I hear you. I just got seperated from my wife because she just didnt want to snuggle.
12:20	R0B_ROD	ToxicFrog: Im trying so hard to build a skill-set so I can find work using computers and linux. :\|
12:20	R0B_ROD	I have a feeling Clojure will help too!
12:21	devll	How to setup -Xss option for Clojure ?
12:21	justin_smith	devll: are you using lein?
12:21	devll	yes
12:21	justin_smith	:jvm-opts [ ... ]
12:21	devll	I am getting stackoverflow exceptions from a previously working code.
12:22	justin_smith	you may need the ^:replace metadata to override the defaults
12:22	ToxicFrog	R0B_ROD: erk. My condolences.
12:22	devll	justin_smith: thanks
12:22	justin_smith	devll: I know you need ^:replace to specify the -server option for example
12:22	ToxicFrog	I graduated, and then we moved, and then we had a baby, and that kind of nuked our social life -- we've basically got my family (hers lives hours away), my ex, and an old friend of hers from uni she just reconnected with, and that's it :/
12:25	devll	OK. thx
12:29	R0B_ROD	ToxicFrog: My condolences. Glad you graduated. Im a father too. I feel you on social life for a married young couple. Im 30 y/o
12:31	ToxicFrog	R0B_ROD: hah! I'm 29.
12:32	ToxicFrog	She's starting to make friends at the baby's swimming lessons, but I'm at work all day. And neither of us are really good at meeting new people.
12:33	ggherdov	,(into {} '(("a" "b") ("c" "d")))
12:33	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry>
12:33	justin_smith	ggherdov: it needs vectors
12:34	ggherdov	justin_smith: ah thanks
12:34	justin_smith	,(into {} '(["a" "b"] ["c" "d"]))
12:34	clojurebot	{"a" "b", "c" "d"}
12:34	ggherdov	I see thanks
12:34	justin_smith	though that message mentioning String - that's messed up actually
12:34	R0B_ROD	ToxicFrog: Nice;>
12:34	justin_smith	it should have complained about list not string, right?
12:35	ggherdov	justin_smith: it got me very confused. I still am not sure what the error is about.
12:36	justin_smith	,(into {} '((["a" 1] ["b" 2]] [["c" 3] ["d" 4]]))
12:36	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: ]>
12:36	ggherdov	I'd have guessed that vectors and lists has interchangeable interfaces
12:36	justin_smith	,(into {} '((["a" 1] ["b" 2]) (["c" 3] ["d" 4])))
12:36	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry>
12:36	justin_smith	wat
12:36	justin_smith	that's a bug in the error message
12:37	justin_smith	because vectors definitely can be cast to map$entry
12:37	ggherdov	justin_smith: what is a map$entry ? The key, the value or the key-value pair?
12:37	csd_	Can anyone suggest a library for mocking sockets?
12:38	justin_smith	ggherdov: key/value pair
12:38	ggherdov	ok
12:38	justin_smith	,((juxt type identity) (first {:a 0}))
12:38	clojurebot	[clojure.lang.MapEntry [:a 0]]
12:38	justin_smith	they even print identical to vectors
12:38	justin_smith	,((juxt type identity vector?) (first {:a 0}))
12:38	clojurebot	[clojure.lang.MapEntry [:a 0] true]
12:38	ggherdov	I see.
12:38	justin_smith	they even count as a vector
12:39	justin_smith	anyway, off to add a bug report on the tracker
12:39	mahinshaw	,(into {} '([:a 1] [:b 2]))
12:39	clojurebot	{:a 1, :b 2}
12:44	R0B_ROD	godd2: Hey I check the Clojure Brave and True site but I think thats more for quiche eaters.
12:45	godd2	R0B_ROD well I don't know what a quiche eater is supposed to be, other than someone who eats quiche, which I can't really see as an insult, so can you clarify?
12:47	R0B_ROD	godd2: Just a little humor. Quiche-eater is reffered to someone with sensitive programming requirements, Pascal programmers, or other "easy-structured" language. Its folk tradition in Unix culture. The Story of Mel < google
12:48	godd2	I've read the story of Mel. He was pretty hardcore though
12:48	R0B_ROD	godd2: Yup
12:49	R0B_ROD	godd2: I commented on the site of 'brave' and true, he remmoved it, lol. Constructive critisism
12:50	R0B_ROD	Oh well... in this age of free and bloated functionality there is nothing less I expect. The future is doomed
12:50	{blake}	R0B_ROD: Huh. By that def, I'm a quiche eater, but I didn't find Brave & True that helpful.
12:51	godd2	R0B_ROD you can feel free to be pessimistic. In the future, I'll remember not to offer you any recommendations to try and help :)
12:51	R0B_ROD	{blake}: LOL
12:51	{blake}	Actually, I've been fretting over it for a while. I'd like to produce some really great beginner's stuff.
12:51	R0B_ROD	godd2: Nah man, I didnt mean it that way, chill
12:51	R0B_ROD	{blake}: Can I help?
12:51	godd2	THE SMILEY PROVES THAT IM CHILL UGH
12:52	{blake}	godd2: lol
12:52	noonian_	from the story of mel: “If a program can't rewrite its own code”, he asked, “what good is it?”
12:52	R0B_ROD	godd2: ugh, Im a bad parser
12:52	{blake}	R0B_ROD: Maybe some day. Writing good beginner's stuff is an odd balance of having mastery over the material with the memory of what it's like to not know anything.
12:53	godd2	R0B_ROD its okay, that's something computers are good at. I hear if you learn a LISPy language, you can make a parser easily. I wonder which one you could choose...
12:53	R0B_ROD	lol {blake}
12:53	{blake}	I'm usually pretty good at it, but it can be especially difficult when the thing you're doing changes your brain. =P
12:53	csd_	Can anyone suggest a library for mocking sockets or suggest how to test without one?
12:54	R0B_ROD	godd2: Not sure, too soon to tell. So much for me to learn
12:54	godd2	R0B_ROD ah then may I suggest that you hold your criticisms until you learn more
12:54	Glenjamin	csd_: midje has some stuff built-in, with-redefs is in core, there are libs on clojars called "bond" and "q" which do some stuff
12:54	Glenjamin	oh
12:54	Glenjamin	sockets
12:54	godd2	in that it would be in your best interest
12:55	Glenjamin	i didn't see that bit
12:55	cddr	Is there a name for the concept of tree which is a copy of another tree but with some nodes transformed or removed
12:55	csd_	yeah :-/
12:55	Glenjamin	ignore everything i just said
12:55	csd_	haha
12:55	csd_	Any alternatives?
12:57	R0B_ROD	godd2: To my memory I havent critizied anything. I suggested a web site an improvement.
12:57	godd2	That is an example of a criticism
12:57	godd2	I mean, do what you want, it was just a suggestion
12:58	godd2	word to the wise, if you will
12:58	R0B_ROD	Ok :)
12:58	godd2	when in clojureland do as the clojurans do
12:58	godd2	clojans?
12:58	R0B_ROD	Oh I dont do as anyone
12:58	noonian_	i think its Clojurians or Clojurists
12:58	R0B_ROD	Sorry this might be the wrong plce for me
12:59	godd2	but definitely not Clojuristas
12:59	csd_	is there maybe someway to shadow ServerSocket so that particular method calls return exactly what I want?
12:59	csd_	@Glenjamin
12:59	godd2	Clojurinianists
12:59	uptown	clojet cases
13:00	justin_smith	csd_: sounds like a good case for making a proxy or reify
13:00	justin_smith	csd_: implementing the same interfaces ServerSocket does, with dummy method impls
13:01	csd_	i'll give that a shot
13:02	justin_smith	csd_: another option is to rewrite your code to use a protocol (which you extend ServerSocket for) and pass in the impl
13:02	justin_smith	so for the test you pass in the test impl
13:02	noonian_	thats my recomendation
13:03	csd_	sorry i don't understand that justin, can you explain a bit further
13:04	justin_smith	csd_: you would define a protocol that does all the things you need your ServerSocket to do, and then extend ServerSocket to that protocol
13:04	csd_	what's the advantage of that? seems like it would be easier to use reify?
13:04	justin_smith	then you define a record that extends that same protocol, with testing impls of all the protocol methods
13:04	justin_smith	csd_: if it is easier to use reify, that is your answer
13:04	justin_smith	protocols are helpful when you abstract a bit more from the concrete jvm class
13:05	csd_	i'm guessing. i don't have experience doing any of these things before
13:05	justin_smith	csd_: if your functionality that you want to wrap is just the core functionality of ServerSocket, I would just proxy ServerSocket and override the applicable methods, or reify the interfaces ServerSocket uses
13:06	csd_	ok
13:06	csd_	thanks
13:06	justin_smith	and then you have a small refactoring to pass in the impl rather than creating a ServerSocket every time
13:06	justin_smith	but that part should be straightforward
13:18	{blake}	So, if I'm using ring in my ns, but it isn't in my dependencies list, that means I'm using whatever version some other lib (compojure, say) is pulling in, yes?
13:18	justin_smith	{blake}: yeah, if you run "lein deps :tree" it will show you where ring is coming from
13:19	{blake}	justin_smith: Thanks! I had forgotten that!
13:19	{blake}	(inc justin_smith)
13:19	lazybot	⇒ 177
13:20	{blake}	And this is bad, because we end up with hidden, unspecified dependencies. Or could it be good in some cases?
13:22	justin_smith	{blake}: it's good form to explicitly depend on it if you use it directly
13:22	{blake}	justin_smith: I guess the "good" is if you don't rely on it directly you're not required to care.
13:24	pandeiro	is there anywhere that clojure's roadmap WRT to java version compatability is outined?
13:26	justin_smith	pandeiro: anything 1.5+ will work, there has been talk about raising that limit though
13:26	justin_smith	pandeiro: but I don't know that there is any concrete plan to upgrade the required version
13:26	pandeiro	justin_smith: is that documented anywhere, eg for clojure 1.7?
13:26	justin_smith	pandeiro: it should be somewhere on clojure.org or maybe even the main clojure project README
13:27	pandeiro	justin_smith: yep, http://clojure.org/getting_started
13:27	pandeiro	says 1.6
13:27	justin_smith	ho ho!
13:29	clgv	pandeiro: it probably stays with Java 6 for Clojure 1.7
13:30	clgv	Java 6 is required since Clojure 1.6
13:30	{blake}	I've been using Java 8.
13:30	clgv	that's ok ;)
13:31	{blake}	Appears to be!
13:33	hyPiRion	doc <
13:33	hyPiRion	(doc <)
13:33	clojurebot	"([x] [x y] [x y & more]); Returns non-nil if nums are in monotonically increasing order, otherwise false."
13:33	hyPiRion	^ what's up with `non-nil`? I thought it always would return true.
13:34	Glenjamin	,(<)
13:34	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core/<>
13:34	justin_smith	ggherdov: I created a bug report on the Clojure jira for that issue http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1651
13:34	Glenjamin	,(< 1)
13:34	clojurebot	true
13:34	Bronsa	hyPiRion: yeah doesn't look like it will return anything else
13:34	Glenjamin	But I guess it's allowed to in future.
13:34	justin_smith	Bronsa: did you see that? I found it a bit amusing.
13:35	Glenjamin	Or maybe did in the past?
13:36	Bronsa	justin_smith: I never understood that error message
13:36	justin_smith	Bronsa: "PersistentVector cannot be cast to Entry" ohh reeeealy???
13:36	lazybot	justin_smith: How could that be wrong?
13:37	hyPiRion	Glenjamin: yeah, but that would mean you cannot do (sort < [3 2 1]) for instance
13:37	Bronsa	(dec lazybot)
13:37	lazybot	⇒ 36
13:38	Bronsa	,((ancestors (class [])) java.util.Map$Entry) ;; justin_smith
13:38	clojurebot	nil
13:38	justin_smith	aha
13:38	{blake}	ancestors hould never return nil. Just turtles.
13:38	justin_smith	so it's technically true, though not helpful
13:39	justin_smith	🐢
13:39	Bronsa	justin_smith: I actually thought that PV implemented AMapEntry too
13:39	Bronsa	,((ancestors (class (first {1 1})) java.util.Map$Entry)
13:39	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
13:39	Bronsa	,((ancestors (class (first {1 1}))) java.util.Map$Entry)
13:39	clojurebot	java.util.Map$Entry
13:40	Bronsa	,(first {1 1})
13:40	clojurebot	[1 1]
13:40	Bronsa	^ I guess this is why it confused us both
13:40	Bronsa	,(class (first {1 1}))
13:40	clojurebot	clojure.lang.MapEntry
13:40	justin_smith	so the issue is that if you pass in a vector, it can be specialized to a map entry
13:40	justin_smith	and a map entry is a vector
13:41	justin_smith	so really, it should complain that it can't be coerced to vector
13:41	Bronsa	I just accepted that conj on maps is weird
13:41	justin_smith	heh
13:41	Bronsa	an try not to use it
13:41	justin_smith	but into is so handy
13:41	hyPiRion	,(let [f (juxt key val)] (-> {1 2} first f f))
13:41	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry>
13:41	Bronsa	assoc/merge for maps, conj/into for vectors
13:41	hyPiRion	,(let [f (juxt key val)] (-> {1 2} first f))
13:41	clojurebot	[1 2]
13:42	Bronsa	justin_smith: I believe that if the PV enhancement proposed by ztellman gets into 1.8, we will be able to unify PV with MapEntry
13:43	justin_smith	cool
13:43	Bronsa	since we will have a concrete type for a 2-element vector
13:48	llasram	Huh. Clojure at one point had a FixNum class
13:49	llasram	hyPiRion: I was hoping software archaeology would reveal that the numeric comparison operators once returned the larger/smaller value on truth, but no -- that docstring is just wacko
13:50	gfredericks	what was FixNum? a wrapper around Long to mess with hash codes?
13:50	hyPiRion	(< 1 2) → :hi-there
13:52	llasram	gfredericks: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/b58d5badd4ed397f0f6e9be306ac12311c7049d9/src/jvm/clojure/runtime/FixNum.java
13:52	llasram	gfredericks: `int` apparently
13:54	TimMc	hyPiRion: (< 1 2) → false ;; false is non-nil
13:54	hyPiRion	TimMc: hah, that's an even better example
13:54	justin_smith	(< 1 2) -> false "am I on crazy pills?"
13:55	hyPiRion	(inc TimMc)
13:55	lazybot	⇒ 87
14:02	csd_	it doesn't look like reify will work after all. reify only works on java interfaces, and ServerSocket only has the interfaces Closeable and AutoCloseable, which don't help me
14:02	csd_	@ justin_smith
14:02	justin_smith	csd_: that's where proxy comes in
14:02	justin_smith	you can proxy ServerSocket itself
14:03	csd_	i see
14:03	justin_smith	also, failing that, this is where coding to a clojure protocol wins
14:03	csd_	whatever the outcome, learning a lot
14:04	justin_smith	csd_: the way clojure likes to do things, coding against interfaces and protocols, works out really nicely I think
14:05	csd_	do any of you use erc? very frequently the nick auto-completion doesn't acually end up in my submitted text, even though i see it before i hit return... very strange
14:05	csd_	protocols and interfaces are basically the same thing, just one is for java and the other for clojure, correct?
14:06	justin_smith	csd_: weird - I switched to irssi so I could leave irc logged in on my vps, but I never had that issue with erc
14:06	justin_smith	csd_: protocols are backed by an impl interface
14:06	justin_smith	but they define some extra stuff too
14:07	justin_smith	kind of like with defrecord defining a class, but giving you some stuff for free
14:14	cddr	I tried java 8 but ran into problems with the new date package. It may have been me being stupid though and I didn't have time to investigate much
14:18	justin_smith	cddr: I have had zero issues with java8
14:20	TimMc	Good, because Java 7 is apparently end of life.
14:20	TimMc	No more public security patches (at least on Oracle side.)
14:21	hyPiRion	only protected ones.
14:21	justin_smith	hyPiRion: so you need to be in Larry Ellison's will to have any hope of a patch?
14:22	hyPiRion	justin_smith: you must just extend him.
14:22	justin_smith	haha
14:23	justin_smith	am I allowed to use the rack?
14:25	sveri	cddr: IIRC the new date package is taken from joda-time which is pretty awesome
14:37	cddr	Yeah it might have been a clojure lib trying to pull in joda-time and getting collisions.
14:37	csd_	proxy is giving me "method not found in class errors
14:39	csd_	shouldn't at least one of these work? https://www.refheap.com/96652
14:39	justin_smith	csd_: do your arg counts match?
14:39	Bronsa	csd_: proxy unlike reify/deftype doesn't require an explicit "this" arg
14:40	Bronsa	csd_: and ServerSocket/accept takes no args
14:41	Bronsa	csd_: you can't define new methods using proxy, reify or deftype, only override already existing ones
14:45	csd_	what should i do if i want to pass a ServerSocket into a function, and have it return an overridden (.getHostName (.getInetAddress socket))
14:46	csd_	getHostName is part of the InetAddress class, not ServerSocket
14:46	justin_smith	csd_: override (.getInetAddress socket) to return a reify / proxy that covers .getHostName
14:47	justin_smith	or, write a protocol that does (.getHostName (.getInetAddress socket)) for a socket, and returns a string for your test impl
14:47	csd_	but I'm creating the socket via (ServerSocket. port)-- how would the InetAddress get wrapped in?
14:48	csd_	oh i think i see what you're suggesting
14:48	csd_	proxy getInetAddress, and have the proxied version return the overriden function
14:48	justin_smith	.getInetAddress returns an InetAddress describing a port on localhost
14:48	justin_smith	right
14:49	csd_	is this a the point yet where it would be easier to write a protocol
14:49	justin_smith	yeah, that way you don't need to use reify or proxy, and you don't need to replicate deeper structure of types of methods
14:50	justin_smith	so I would say yes
14:50	csd_	ok
14:50	justin_smith	but the exercise of doing it with a proxy is worth it :)
14:50	justin_smith	and will be useful another time I am sure
15:00	sdegutis	What's an impeccable technique for taking a list and getting a map of all duplicated items like {item => times-found} where times-found is more than 1?
15:01	justin_smith	sdegutis: frequencies
15:01	justin_smith	wait, more than 1?
15:01	justin_smith	,(frequencies [1 2 3 2 3 3 4])
15:01	clojurebot	{1 1, 2 2, 3 3, 4 1}
15:02	justin_smith	hmm, could be clearer ##(frequencies [:a :b :c :b :c :c :d])
15:02	lazybot	⇒ {:a 1, :b 2, :c 3, :d 1}
15:02	justin_smith	I guess you can then filter it to remove 1
15:03	justin_smith	,(into {} (remove #(= (val %) 1) (frequencies [:a :b :c :b :c :d])))
15:03	clojurebot	{:b 2, :c 2}
15:04	sdegutis	Well that is impeccable I suppose. But what about an immaculate method?
15:04	csd_	so proxy returns a new class. it seems like i can't use it as a constructor though. e.g. (def foo (proxy ... )); (foo. bar) isn't valid
15:05	justin_smith	csd_: (.newInstance (class foo))
15:05	hiredman	proxy turns an instance of the class
15:05	hiredman	not a class
15:06	csd_	how do i tell it what the constructor params are?
15:06	hiredman	,(doc proxy)
15:06	clojurebot	"([class-and-interfaces args & fs]); class-and-interfaces - a vector of class names args - a (possibly empty) vector of arguments to the superclass constructor. f => (name [params] body) or (name ([params] body) ([params+] body) ...) Expands to code which creates a instance of a proxy class that implements the named class/interface(s) by calling the supplied fns. A single class, if provided, mus...
15:06	justin_smith	csd_: why do you need to construct it?
15:06	justin_smith	why not just use the result of proxy directly?
15:06	csd_	i'm going to construct in my tests file the extended socket, and then pass that into my test functions
15:07	justin_smith	csd_: why not directly use the result of proxy? or wrap it in a function that returns the proxy if you must
15:07	justin_smith	I mean newInstance will work, but it seems odd
15:08	csd_	i misunderstood how to call proxy. it looks like I do (proxy [class & args] ...). Didn't realize the args followed the class name
15:08	hiredman	they don't
15:08	csd_	oh
15:09	gfredericks	(proxy [class & interfaces] [args] ...)
15:16	csd_	https://www.refheap.com/96659
15:17	csd_	Anything noticeably wrong?
15:18	sdegutis	Thanks for your help, dynamic typers.
15:18	sdegutis	Especially justin_smith.
15:19	amalloy	csd_: that error message is saying that the no-arg constructor for InetAddress is not public
15:20	amalloy	and indeed there are no public constructors at all
15:20	amalloy	so you can't subclass it in any way i can think of
15:20	csd_	it's a method of ServersSocket, which is public http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/net/ServerSocket.html#getInetAddress()
15:21	amalloy	csd_: the objection is to the proxy of InetAddress, not ServerSocket
15:21	amalloy	you simply cannot proxy that class
15:21	amalloy	because you cannot subclass it
15:22	amalloy	you would get the same error from just: ##(proxy [java.net.InetAddress] [] (getHostName [] (println "foo")))
15:22	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Var$Unbound cannot be cast to clojure.lang.DynamicClassLoader
15:22	amalloy	well, okay, except some lazybot weirdness i guess
15:22	amalloy	ie, reading the docs for serversocket will not help you at all, because your problem is not in serversocket
15:22	csd_	I want to override InetAdress.getHostName given a ServerSocket. Is my only option left to try extending via a protocol or is that ruled out too now?
15:23	csd_	reason for this is I'm trying to find a way to mock sockets for testing
15:23	amalloy	csd_: no, just return something which isn't a proxy
15:23	amalloy	use the static methods in InetAddress
15:24	csd_	how would you mock sockets personally?
15:25	amalloy	i don't really understand what you're trying to do. i don't know why i would mock a socket at all. just create a real socket bound to localhost and talk to it
15:27	csd_	i think that's the route i'll take
15:44	{blake}	Options for using MS's jdbc interface for MS-SQL? I can set up a repository, do stuff with Maven...but can't I also just put the JAR somewhere on my CLASSPATH? (I mean, I guess I can't 'cause I tried that, but maybe I'm just doing it wrong.)
15:44	{blake}	lein can't find the JAR when I put it in /targets.
15:45	justin_smith	{blake}: mvn install
15:45	sdegutis	Do most of you prefer to use core.typed in most of your code?
15:45	sdegutis	Or do you prefer the freedom and danger and excitement of dynamic typing?
15:46	ToxicFrog	sdegutis: I would love to use core.typed in most of my code, but historically I've had issues with it choking on things like command line parsers.
15:46	ToxicFrog	At that point I spend more time fighting the type checker than I gain in up-front bug detection, so I shelve it for another half year.
15:47	{blake}	sdegutis: "I’m not against types, but I don’t know of any type systems that aren’t a complete pain, so I still like dynamic typing."
15:47	bodie_	this feels like a dumb question, but how would you write a function that does nothing but eval to the same value no matter what?
15:47	justin_smith	bodie_: constantly
15:47	bodie_	ok. thanks
15:47	{blake}	justin_smith: Wow...can I kiss you if that works? Or, send a designated hot female (or male, your choice) to kiss you?
15:47	sdegutis	{blake}: which ones have you tried?
15:47	justin_smith	,(map (constantly 42) [:a 2 "hello" nil []])
15:47	clojurebot	(42 42 42 42 42)
15:48	justin_smith	{blake}: no need, but it will work
15:48	sdegutis	{blake}: I'm curious especially if you've tried Haskell and found it to be problemsome, since I'm looking into Haskell myself.
15:48	{blake}	sdegutis: Clojure is my first functional language.
15:49	{blake}	sdegutis: But I've coded in Basic, Pascal, PL/I, C, C++, Java...that may be it for statically typed systems. Wait, does Javascript count? I sorta don't think so. Actionscript is statically typed, and I do that.
15:50	bosky101	does anyone know of a http client that prints that stops just short of sending data over the socket, and instead returns the binary data . eg “GET / HTTP/1.1\r\n..."
15:50	justin_smith	{blake}: hindely-milner (as ml and haskell use) is a completely different experience compared to most static typing
15:50	{blake}	sdegutis: Then there's Smalltalk, PHP, Perl, Python and Ruby. I feel a little uneasy in Ruby sometimes, but I actually haven't had any issues with typing.
15:51	justin_smith	{blake}: hindley-milner type systems don't require type annotations at all, as long as the types are unambigous based on binding or usage
15:51	amalloy	bosky101: just use a real http client, and an http server on your own machine that prints out what it gets, or wahtever
15:51	{blake}	justin_smith: I'll check it out. The more I don't use typing, the less I miss it. And, again, big Pascal guy here. (And PL/I which would happily convert anything to anything with the gentlest of warnings about it. Then you'd get killed on your CPU-cycles bill.)
15:52	{blake}	justin_smith: Wait, does that count, then? =P
15:52	justin_smith	{blake}: no, the typing is quite strict, with few implicit conversions (ml won't even force into to float)
15:52	tomjack	I think they just don't require type annotations at all, unless the type inferred is not the type you want?
15:53	justin_smith	you just don't need to declare the type if the logic engine can prove what type the binding has to be
15:53	tbaldridge	{blake}: I used to do some work on a Pascal/Delphi system. It's a crime C won mindshare over Pascal. it's really a wonderful language.
15:53	{blake}	justin_smith: But strict <> static. Smalltalk is strict.
15:53	justin_smith	{blake}: strict and static
15:53	justin_smith	{blake}: but does not need explicit declarations
15:53	{blake}	tbaldridge: It is, though Delphi has become more and more Java-C#-esque.
15:53	sdegutis	{blake}: wow those are some unpleasant languages you named
15:54	tomjack	I prefer something which generally requires type annotations because inference is undecidable, but where annotations can be omitted whenever the system happens to be able to infer the type
15:54	{blake}	justin_smith: Well, so...let's say it's inferred one thing from use, then you do something that makes it infer something else...Well, I guess that's still static, but yeah, that'd be a horse of a different color.
15:54	sdegutis	tomjack: like Haskell?
15:54	tomjack	no, like Agda
15:54	sdegutis	Oh cool.
15:55	justin_smith	{blake}: if there is no unification of the inference possible (because it would need to be two different types, or no usage makes the type clear) you get a compilation error
15:55	justin_smith	{blake}: but in practice, almost always, usage makes the type clear
15:55	tomjack	e.g. omitting annotations on most defns is a non-goal for me, because the first thing I probably want to do when writing a defn is to specify the type
15:56	tomjack	otherwise, how will I know that the implementation is correct? :)
15:56	{blake}	sdegutis: I liked all of them except C and C++. Perl makes me woozy, but for what it is and what it does, it's tough to beat.
15:56	{blake}	I forgot REXX! No typing at all in REXX. Everything is a string. =P
15:56	{blake}	OOREXX is ...well, it's just ... a thing to be experienced.
15:57	{blake}	Also, while I rather enjoy PHP, working in it usually means unravelling some awful framework.
15:57	justin_smith	OOREXX is the sound I make when a language turns my stomach
15:57	{blake}	(I consider it a dangerous toy, sorta like Basic.)
15:58	{blake}	justin_smith: That's what happens on an all-string diet.
15:58	justin_smith	lol
15:58	{blake}	REXX's big thing was the principle of least surprise. That was its guiding consideration. It is the most surprising language I've ever worked with.
15:59	{blake}	Mis-spell "DOG" that you're using as an integer counter as "DOGG" and add one to it...I think you get "DOGG1"?
16:00	{blake}	Awesome batch language, tho'.
16:04	{blake}	I guess assembler is the ultimate dynamically typed language.
16:05	justin_smith	{blake}: untyped, which is different
16:05	justin_smith	in dynamic typing, eventually, at runtime, you check the type
16:05	justin_smith	untyped is like, OK, it's bytes, that checks out, chuck 'em in
16:06	justin_smith	because everything is just some quantity of bytes
16:06	{blake}	justin_smith: And, really, isn't that always true? (True, but not helpful, as you noted earlier.)
16:07	justin_smith	{blake}: types are of course the fiction of some language. But it's a fiction that helps us ensure correctness.
16:07	justin_smith	it's a constraint that isn't intrinsic to the machine, but in practice makes programming so much easier...
16:12	{blake}	Back to Maven install...is there a maven repository for each lein project? Is that the deal? So if I install a JAR with maven install for project A, it must be done again for Maven B?
16:12	{blake}	er project B?
16:12	justin_smith	{blake}: no, there is one repo per user
16:12	justin_smith	so unless you have a different user for each project, it only needs to be installed once
16:23	{blake}	justin_smith: So I think I've installed it. mvn reports success. Do I need to specify a repository in project clj or install with lein or...?
16:24	justin_smith	{blake}: if mvn installed it, you require it like you would any other lib in project.clj
16:24	justin_smith	[group/dep-name "version"]
16:24	justin_smith	s/require/depend on it/
16:38	{blake}	So if it's not working for me, I probably have the name wrong somehow.
16:38	justin_smith	{blake}: what coords are you trying to use?
16:39	{blake}	justin_smith: Well, I installed it as "com.microsoft.sqlserver/sqljdbc4".
16:40	{blake}	(That's the group ID/artifact ID.
16:40	justin_smith	OK
16:40	justin_smith	and what does the entry in project.clj look like?
16:40	{blake}	Version 4.
16:40	justin_smith	?
16:40	{blake}	[com.microsoft.sqlserver/sqljdbc4 "4.0"]
16:41	{blake}	The path is \.m2\repository\com\microsoft\sqlserver\sqljdbc4\4.0\sqljdbc4-4.0.jar
16:41	justin_smith	that all looks right
16:42	justin_smith	and when maven installed it, did it also install a pom?
16:42	{blake}	Yes. Same path, just .pom
16:43	{blake}	Wait, I'm describing this wrong.
16:44	{blake}	I apologize. My lein deps is fine. It's showing up in the tree.
16:44	{blake}	I just can't seem to actually use it.
16:44	justin_smith	{blake}: recall that the object package is not always (or even usually?) the same as the package coords
16:45	justin_smith	how are you trying to access the classes in the jar?
16:45	{blake}	justin_smith: I was trying to require it.
16:45	justin_smith	{blake}: you can only require clojure code
16:45	{blake}	And I just don't need to do that. It just has to be there for clojure.java.jdbc.
16:45	{blake}	Right. Dumb.
16:46	{blake}	It's installed. Thanks.
16:46	justin_smith	glad you got it sorted out
16:46	{blake}	I'm allergic to ODBC.
16:49	{blake}	So...I can only require Clojure code...but I can import whatever?
16:50	justin_smith	{blake}: right
16:50	justin_smith	and the jvm autoloads things from the classpath as they are accessed
16:50	justin_smith	import is just a syntactic convenience
16:50	{blake}	justin_smith: For?
16:51	{blake}	Manually loading stuff?
16:51	justin_smith	for not having to type out the full package name
17:02	gfredericks	,["symbol" 'keyword :string]
17:02	clojurebot	["symbol" keyword :string]
17:03	justin_smith	gfredericks: that's like that test where the words for the colors are written in other colors
17:03	seangrove	justin_smith: I was thinking the same thing
17:03	justin_smith	https://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/words.html
17:04	justin_smith	"the stroop effect"
17:06	gfredericks	,[(atom "ref") (ref "agent") (agent "atom")]
17:06	clojurebot	[#<Atom@622f497c: "ref"> #<Ref@5fbc8330: "agent"> #<Agent@ce82bd7: "atom">]
17:06	gfredericks	oh even better
17:06	gfredericks	,[(atom ref) (ref agent) (agent atom)]
17:06	clojurebot	[#<Atom@2718561f: #<core$ref clojure.core$ref@9e0e83d>> #<Ref@caf01dc: #<core$agent clojure.core$agent@66bfb2c5>> #<Agent@3371d836: #<core$atom clojure.core$atom@5d111be2>>]
17:06	justin_smith	and now I am thinking of stroopwafels.... mmmmm stroopwafels
17:06	gfredericks	,(atom (ref (agent atom)))
17:06	clojurebot	#<Atom@45ba6928: #<Ref@514de4db: #<Agent@50ec0f90: #<core$atom clojure.core$atom@5d111be2>>>>
17:08	gfredericks	^ concurrency protip
17:08	amalloy	gfredericks: ##(map #(% %2) (partition 2 1 [atom ref agent atom]))
17:08	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! agent is bad!
17:09	justin_smith	gfredericks: I'd like to see a single swap! call that rearranges all those contents (maybe changes their nesting)
17:09	justin_smith	maybe throw a delay or a promise in there too
17:10	gfredericks	,(->> [atom ref agent delay future] (rand-nth) (fn []) (repeatedly 10) (reduce #(%2 %1) 42))
17:10	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/delay, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
17:10	gfredericks	aw snapchat
17:10	gfredericks	,(->> [atom ref agent] (rand-nth) (fn []) (repeatedly 10) (reduce #(%2 %1) 42))
17:10	clojurebot	#<Ref@4531bbc1: #<Agent@441d9f64: #<Agent@74cb812b: #<Agent@5c8d69f4: #<Agent@482741a4: #<Agent@9469afe: #<Agent@7a699e73: #<Ref@2c21cece: #<Ref@5f904d04: #<Ref@7ab0729f: 42>>>>>>>>>>
17:10	justin_smith	it's like a rat-king of concurrency containers
17:11	gfredericks	and then you mutate the bottom one to contain the top one
17:11	TimMc	&(let [a (atom nil)] (reset! a a) a)
17:11	justin_smith	gfredericks: or put a promise at the very bottom, and deliver the top one to it
17:11	lazybot	java.lang.StackOverflowError
17:11	seangrove	,(let [b (atom nil) a (atom (ref (agent b)))] (reset! b a) (loop [v a c 10] (recur (deref v) (dec c))) :unprintable)
17:11	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
17:12	seangrove	,(let [b (atom nil) a (atom (ref (agent b)))] (reset! b a) (loop [v a c 10] (when (pos? c) (recur (deref v) (dec c)))) :unprintable)
17:12	clojurebot	:unprintable
17:12	seangrove	icanclojurez
17:19	slipset	what would be the idiomatic way to interupt a go-loop in a repl?
17:20	justin_smith	slipset: one option is to make a "poison pill" channel that askes the loop to stop
17:21	slipset	justin_smith: thanks, I've used an atom, like this:
17:21	slipset	(go-loop []
17:21	slipset	(handle-output cfg (<! messages))
17:21	slipset	(when @continue
17:21	slipset	(recur)))
17:22	slipset	But it would be nice to be able to kill the thing without restarting the repl
17:22	justin_smith	slipset: here's a poison channel example from danneu http://www.reddit.com/r/Clojure/comments/2ka3na/how_do_you_organize_your_coreasync_code/cljqzwb
17:24	slipset	justin_smith: thanks for the link, very nice approach
17:30	slipset	justin_smith: in http://www.reddit.com/r/Clojure/comments/2ka3na/how_do_you_organize_your_coreasync_code/
17:30	slipset	it is mentioned that
17:31	slipset	(go-loop [m (<! messages)]
17:31	slipset	(handle-output cfg m)
17:31	slipset	(recur (<! messages)))
17:32	slipset	will terminate once messages closes
17:33	slipset	but I can't read that out of the docs for neither go-loop, loop nor recur
17:33	slipset	~loop
17:33	clojurebot	loop is https://www.refheap.com/90332
17:35	slipset	crap, my bad, didn't read the whole code
17:35	slipset	he had a when in there.
17:35	slipset	(go-loop [v (<! in)] (when v (println v) (recur (<! in)))
17:38	tomjack	justin_smith: are the natural numbers fictional? :)
17:39	xyz_	Hello, using clj-time/clj-time, how do I import DateTime ? I have a check like that : (condp = x DateTime (...)) and I (:require [clj-time.core :as t] [clj-time.format :as f])
17:40	justin_smith	tomjack: of course, they are a mental construction
17:40	TimMc	xyz_: To refer to DateTime without the full package prefix, you need to :import it.
17:40	TimMc	This is just like in Java -- "import" is an unfortunate term.
17:41	slipset	xyz_: (:import [java.net URLEncoder])
17:41	xyz_	TimMc: I see. And it is in core then I guess? so I should use t/DateTime ?
17:41	TimMc	so this would be like (:import (org.joda.time DateTime))
17:42	xyz_	TimMc: Oh ok. Thank you!
17:42	slipset	TimMc: but with the square breackets, yes?
17:42	slipset	s/breackets/brackets/
17:42	TimMc	I use lists instead of vectors there. I think it actually specifies that but will accept either.
17:43	TimMc	xyz_: The foo.bar/baz syntax is for vars, which are a Clojure thing. DateTime is a class. While it could have been defined by something in clj-time.core, it isn't a var.
17:43	justin_smith	(doc import)
17:43	clojurebot	"([& import-symbols-or-lists]); import-list => (package-symbol class-name-symbols*) For each name in class-name-symbols, adds a mapping from name to the class named by package.name to the current namespace. Use :import in the ns macro in preference to calling this directly."
17:44	TimMc	(In this case it is defined by joda, but to the same effect.)
17:44	TimMc	justin_smith: It says list, so I use lists. Also, the first element is distinguished. :-)
17:44	justin_smith	yes, just checking what the doc actually said
17:45	xyz_	TimMc: ok this clears the fog a bit now. And to import the joda jar? Is it in leiningen ? (I've only imported clojars)
17:45	justin_smith	xyz_: you don't import jars
17:46	justin_smith	and import doesn't open things or make them accessible, it just makes it syntactically simpler to refer to them
17:46	justin_smith	the fact that the thing is on the classpath (as lein sets it up) is what makes the class available
17:46	TimMc	xyz_: Both joda and clj-time are jars. Clojars is a repository of jars. leiningen is a build tool that (among other things) pulls down jars from repositories.
17:47	TimMc	More correctly, clj-time is an artifact -- a specification of dependencies along with an actual jar. Since it specifies joda as a dependency, when you ask leiningen to get clj-time, it also fetches joda and makes it available to you.
17:48	xyz_	timMc / justin_smith: not sure I get it yet : how will it find org.joda.time ?
17:48	justin_smith	xyz_: because it is in the classpath
17:48	xyz_	timMc / justin_smith: shoudl I look for importing from maven with lainingen ?
17:48	sobel	hi, i have a question about use of loop/recur. i'll be parsing a quasi-CSV file that has variable record types and some light rules about nesting. i thought i would just pass parse state as the loop variables. is that generally the worst use of memory or what?
17:48	justin_smith	it is in the classpath because lein set up your classpath, and downloaded it if it was not on your machine yet
17:49	justin_smith	xyz_: import doesn't make the class accessible, it's just a shortcut for referring to the class. The classpath makes the jar (and its classes) available.
17:49	xyz_	TimMc: ok that makes sense.
17:50	justin_smith	sobel: passing the object to the next loop doesn't use any more memory than any other way of leaving it accessible would
17:50	xyz_	justin_smith: I get it now thank you. And now, if I wanted to re-export DateTime from a namespace so that it becomes available, how would I do that? (:import [org.joda.time DateTime]) (def DateTime DateTime) doesn't work
17:50	justin_smith	sobel: clojure does very little copying, because most things we use are typically immutable anyway
17:51	justin_smith	xyz_: that's not how it works. If DateTime is on the classpath, any namespace can use it.
17:51	justin_smith	xyz_: why would you def?
17:52	justin_smith	def creates vars, DateTime is a class.
17:52	xyz_	justin_smith: yes but the second namespace has to import it also ? Sorry if I'm unclear I can re-explain just say so.
17:52	sobel	justin_smith: so i don't have to worry about it behaving like a real stack, which would grow proportionally with the loop count
17:52	justin_smith	xyz_: namespaces don't contain classes, they contain vars
17:52	justin_smith	xyz_: packages contain classes
17:52	justin_smith	sobel: no, there is no stack to loop
17:52	TimMc	xyz_: You specify [clj-time/clj-time "1.2.3"] or whatever in your project.clj. Leiningen asks Clojars (and other repos) "do you have that"? One says "yes, here is the jar for it and here's what it depends on". Leiningen continues to download dependencies until they're all in your ~/.m2 directory. Then when you start your program, all those jar files are included on the classpath. Any classes in those jars can simply be refe
17:52	sobel	justin_smith: thx
17:52	tomjack	justin_smith: I think the universe needs _at least_ primitive recursion to function, whether there are minds in the universe or not :P. I don't think I had noticed this ontological perspective on the 'church vs curry types' distinction before... thanks.
17:52	amalloy	sobel: loop/recur uses jump instructions, not call
17:53	xyz_	TimMc / justin_smith: thank you for your help !
17:53	TimMc	xyz_: That part is basically identical to how Maven works with Java programs.
17:54	justin_smith	tomjack: sure, but the natural numbers don't need to exist as a reified thing, and as a description of our reality, they need not obey our mathematical axioms regarding the natural numbers
17:54	justin_smith	tomjack: we can find the mapping from our mathematics to how things in the world work useful, of course
17:54	sobel	ok, probably going to write an amazingly elegant clojure statement to do some file parsing then recode the whole thing in java for realsies (deployment) because i don't (yet) work in a clojure shop
17:54	justin_smith	but it's a model imho
17:54	xyz_	TimMc: unfortunately I did some java quite some time ago, and never used Maven... but I get the idea (similar to npm in node). Thank you!
17:55	justin_smith	xyz_: the namespaces with vars vs. packages with classes thing is a tricky one
17:55	justin_smith	xyz_: but it's better than the situation would be if we just used packages / classes for everything I think
17:58	xyz_	justin_smith: I trust it is :) I was confused indeed.
18:15	TimMc	xyz_: Better for now not to think too much about how vars and namespaces interact with classes and packages. The one interaction you need to know of is that namespaces can define classes, so you'll occasionally need to :require a namespace before you can use the classes it defines (by any name.)
18:19	xyz_	TimMc: I'll probably have to take some time to play with it before understanding that, so your simplification is welcome
18:23	TimMc	xyz_: WHen you :require a namespace you are actually causing it to be loaded, compiled, and made available for use (if it hasn't been already.) That includes side-effects like defining classes. :-)
19:28	arohner	I'm getting "Could not find artifact net.mikera:mikera-pom:pom:0.4.0 in clojars.org' when I add [net.mikera/core.matrix "0.32.1"]
19:29	arohner	and AFAICT, I haven't modified my :repositories settings
19:29	arohner	and it looks like that pom is in mvn central
19:30	arohner	aha, it says it couldn't find it in clojars
19:30	arohner	but that version isn't in clojars
19:31	arohner	0.0.4 is the latest in clojars, 0.4.0 is the latest in mvn
19:31	amalloy	well, does it eventually find it in maven central?
19:31	arohner	amalloy: no, it errors out with a big stacktrace
19:31	amalloy	honestly though i don't understand how pom-only artifacts work, or parent poms
19:39	arohner	sigh. replacing my :repositories order fixed it
19:40	arohner	this looks like a maven bug, because there are old net-mikera/mikera-pom versions on clojars, but not the version I asked for
20:09	andyf	justin_smith: Which version of Eastwood are you using? Version 0.2.1 has some code where I tried to eliminate incorrect arity warnings specifically for clojure.java.jdbc/insert!
20:13	justin_smith	andyf: oh, my version is 0.1.5, that must be ancient by now
20:13	justin_smith	thanks
20:13	andyf	version 0.2.0 and earlier do have known issues with incorrect warnings there. If you see them with 0.2.1 I would appreciate if you could file an issue with whatever details you can provide
20:13	andyf	Only 4 months or so
20:14	justin_smith	andyf: that fixed it, thanks!
20:14	justin_smith	(inc andyf)
20:14	lazybot	⇒ 25
20:14	justin_smith	(inc eastwood)
20:14	lazybot	⇒ 8
20:15	andyf	Cool
20:19	xyz_	Hello, I'd like to get some help on my merge/validate maps code. I made it work for simple nested maps, but it fails in the case of an array as a value inside the map. I'm not sure how I can attack the problem yet. Any ideas? I can post the full code if needed.
20:19	justin_smith	xyz_: for vectors, get-in / update-in can use a numeric index
20:20	justin_smith	,(get-in {:a [:b {:c 0} :d]} [:a 1 :c])
20:20	clojurebot	0
20:20	justin_smith	xyz_: unless you really mean arrays - not sure if it works with those
20:21	xyz_	justin_smith: good to know. I'm not sure how I can use that though. I used the flatten-map idea to list all the keys, so I should modify it ?
20:22	justin_smith	xyz_: you can update your flattened-map to descend to each numeric index of the vector separately
20:22	xyz_	I mean things like {:a [{:b "b" :c "c"}]}
20:22	justin_smith	xyz_: ##(get-in {:a [{:b "b" :c "c"}]} [:a 0 :c])
20:22	lazybot	⇒ "c"
20:23	xyz_	justin_smith: to be honest I don't quite get the code yet. I took it from amalloy's answer there http://stackoverflow.com/questions/21768802/how-can-i-get-the-nested-keys-of-a-map-in-clojure/21769786#21769786
20:24	xyz_	justin_smith: I'll experiment with the get-in / update-in and numeric indexes then (does it work for assoc-in too? I'm using that right now), and then try to modiy the fletten function.
20:24	justin_smith	xyz_: you would change the (if (map? m) ...) to a (cond (vector? m) ... (map? m) ...) and in the vector case you would iterate descending to each numeric index
20:24	justin_smith	xyz_: yes, assoc-in should also follow the numeric indexes
20:25	xyz_	justin_smith: thank you for the tip ^^ I'll probably be back again then :)
20:26	justin_smith	xyz_: another option, if you know the schema statically, is to replace [a b c] with {0 a 1 b 2 c}, which would generate the right keys in the output vec to work with get-in / update-in / assoc-in
20:28	TEttinger	,(zipmap [:a :b :c] (range))
20:28	clojurebot	{:c 2, :b 1, :a 0}
20:28	justin_smith	TEttinger: opposite order, but yeah, great point
20:28	TEttinger	,(zipmap (range) [:a :b :c])
20:28	clojurebot	{2 :c, 1 :b, 0 :a}
20:28	TEttinger	yeah just realized
20:28	xyz_	justin_smith: the schema is a parameter, so I guess it's not static ?
20:29	justin_smith	xyz_: in fact, you could just update the code you have now to do what TEttinger just did if you hit a vector, and then treat it the same way you would a map
20:29	TEttinger	yup
20:29	justin_smith	hrm
20:29	justin_smith	,(keys [:a :b :c])
20:29	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry>
20:29	justin_smith	aww, shucks :)
20:30	TEttinger	,(sequential? {:a 1})
20:30	xyz_	TEttinger / justin_smith: I really appreciate the help thank you! I'll try that first
20:30	clojurebot	false
20:30	TEttinger	,(sequential? [:a :b])
20:31	clojurebot	true
20:31	TEttinger	,(zipmap (range) '(:a :b :c))
20:31	clojurebot	{2 :c, 1 :b, 0 :a}
20:31	TEttinger	,(sequential? '(:a :b :c))
20:31	clojurebot	true
20:31	TEttinger	good
20:32	TEttinger	I'm not sure if there's a better test of "collection that isn't a map" here
20:33	justin_smith	,(map (every-pred (complement map?) coll?) [[] () #{}])
20:33	clojurebot	(true true true)
20:33	metellus	anything wrong with (not (map? ..
20:34	justin_smith	TEttinger: (every-pred (complement map?) coll?) catches one coll yours does not
20:34	justin_smith	(of the most common sorts)
21:10	tcrayford____	is there a way to specify multiple type tags on a local?
21:10	tcrayford____	e.g. I wanna say "this type is both clojure.lang.Counted and clojure.lang.IMeta", without two locals or involving reflection on either
21:21	TEttinger	tcrayford____: do you mean type hints? you could probably make an interface that implements both? I'm not sure what the way to do this is
21:21	TEttinger	I'm not sure if Counted is an interface or class, tbh
21:27	tcrayford____	TEttinger: turns out you can just do (let [^clojure.lang.Counter ^clojure.lang.IMeta a thingy] …)
21:27	tcrayford____	I think anyway
21:27	TEttinger	woah nice
21:27	tcrayford____	nope
21:27	tcrayford____	maybe not
21:27	tcrayford____	haha
21:27	tcrayford____	it compiles
21:27	tcrayford____	but it doesn't work ;)
21:28	tcrayford____	lang.Counted is an interface ;)
21:28	TEttinger	,(let [^clojure.lang.Counted c [1]] (meta c))
21:28	clojurebot	nil
21:35	turbofail	,(meta '^clojure.lang.Counted c)
21:35	clojurebot	{:tag clojure.lang.Counted}
21:36	turbofail	anyway the proper thing to do is not have to do that at all
21:36	turbofail	but instead define separate functions that call the methods that you care about
21:36	turbofail	each with their own relevant type hint
21:38	turbofail	and then hope those functions get inlined by the JVM
21:39	turbofail	but in practice as long as you're not hitting reflection, you're probably in decent shape performance-wise even with the function calls
21:41	tcrayford____	turbofail: this is for extremely performance sensitive code, and I know what I'm doing (mostly)
21:41	tcrayford____	(in this case: trying to eliminate the conditional inside clojure.core/meta in clj-tuple's calling of it)
21:42	tcrayford____	though I suspect the JIT's prolly ahead of me here
21:42	tcrayford____	(on the other hand: http://cl.ly/image/2Z1G2f0e3d2A)
21:53	TimMc	tcrayford____: Yeah, multiple ^foo.Bar will just overwrite each other.
22:26	ambrosebs	,(= (Boolean. false) false)
22:26	clojurebot	true
22:26	ambrosebs	,(if (Boolean. false) 1 2)
22:26	clojurebot	1
22:27	ambrosebs	,(if (first [false]) 1 2)
22:27	clojurebot	2
22:27	justin_smith	that's some weird ass shit
22:27	ambrosebs	,(if (first [(Boolean. false)]) 1 2)
22:27	clojurebot	1
22:27	ambrosebs	So my question is, does `false` get boxed once it gets inserted into a vector?
22:28	justin_smith	wait, there is such thing as unboxed false?
22:28	ambrosebs	I'm highly ignorant here
22:28	tomjack	Boolean/FALSE
22:28	tomjack	Boolean. is a nono in clojure
22:29	ambrosebs	is Boolean/FALSE an object?
22:29	tomjack	clojure pretends it doesn't exist to make the non-insane case have better perf
22:29	tomjack	right
22:29	justin_smith	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/java/nutsandbolts/datatypes.html yeah, looks like boolean can actually be unboxed, TIL
22:29	ambrosebs	ah so the primitive boolean is something different?
22:30	justin_smith	yeah, the "true false" has only one possible instance
22:30	justin_smith	and if you make new falses, they are not actually truly false
22:30	justin_smith	in fact they are instead falsely true!
22:30	ambrosebs	so I get this right, Boolean/FALSE is a boxed primitive false?
22:31	justin_smith	,(get {Boolean/FALSE 42} false)
22:31	clojurebot	42
22:32	justin_smith	that either auto-boxed, or established that Boolean/FALSE is boxed
22:32	justin_smith	,Boolean/FALSE
22:32	clojurebot	false
22:32	tomjack	`public static Boolean FALSE = new Boolean(false)`
22:32	tomjack	er, final too
22:32	ambrosebs	oh I see.
22:33	tomjack	(with a `private final boolean value;`)
22:33	ambrosebs	I guess clojure uses pointer equality to test against FALSE
22:33	tomjack	clojure wants (identical? FALSE x) though
22:33	tomjack	yeah
22:34	ambrosebs	when we type (Boolean. false), is that a nested boxed boolean anyway?
22:34	ambrosebs	,(= Long/NaN)
22:34	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to find static field: NaN in class java.lang.Long, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
22:34	justin_smith	ambrosebs: do you want Double/NaN ?
22:35	justin_smith	,(= Double/NaN)
22:35	clojurebot	true
22:35	ambrosebs	thx :)
22:35	ambrosebs	for a twitter snark
22:35	justin_smith	,(get {Double/NaN 42} Double/NaN)
22:35	clojurebot	nil
22:35	justin_smith	haha
22:36	ambrosebs	,(= Double/NaN Double/NaN)
22:36	clojurebot	false
22:36	ambrosebs	never gets old
22:44	danielszmulewicz	Is there an idiom to write a function that does x if its argument is a map, and does the same x for each map when the argument is a sequence of maps?
22:44	tomjack	no
23:17	gfredericks	this bytecode is super weird
23:18	gfredericks	I just compiled (defn foo [x] (def bar x))
23:18	justin_smith	if someone had said "someone on #clojure discovered something super weird" I would have put a $100 bet on "gfredericks", no hints needed.
23:18	gfredericks	and the bytecode creates a map in the static initializer
23:18	gfredericks	an IPersistentMap
23:18	justin_smith	woah
23:19	gfredericks	and stores it in a static field for good deffings later
23:19	gfredericks	this is all normal
23:19	justin_smith	what does the map do?
23:19	gfredericks	it's got the metadata for the def
23:19	gfredericks	line number and such
23:19	justin_smith	ahh, of course
23:19	gfredericks	but
23:19	gfredericks	the type of the static field is........
23:19	gfredericks	clojure.lang.AFunction
23:20	gfredericks	then at runtime it pulls the map out of that static field and checkcasts it back to a persistent map
23:20	gfredericks	O_O
23:20	gfredericks	afaik there's nothing that is both an IPersistentMap an an AFunction
23:20	gfredericks	so I believe this bytecode is impossible
23:20	gfredericks	(it checkcasts it as AFunction on the way in as well)
23:21	justin_smith	this isn't related to creating the var bar?
23:21	gfredericks	the var itself is created in the static initializer
23:21	gfredericks	(not at runtime)
23:22	justin_smith	oh, right
23:22	TEttinger	what is AFunction? different how from IFn?
23:22	gfredericks	it's a class, not an interface
23:22	gfredericks	AFunction is an IFn
23:23	justin_smith	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/AFunction.java
23:23	justin_smith	gfredericks: extends AFn
23:23	gfredericks	sure
23:23	justin_smith	implements Fn
23:23	gfredericks	AFn implements IFn though so by extension...
23:24	justin_smith	well it's an abstract class, so technically does it implement anything? not sure of those distinctions
23:24	gfredericks	yes
23:24	justin_smith	OK
23:24	gfredericks	I mean it's not instantiable
23:24	gfredericks	but if you have something that is an AFn then it is definitely those other things as well
23:25	gfredericks	anyhow we can at least agree that ##(instance? clojure.lang.AFunction (hash-map 3 4))
23:25	lazybot	⇒ false
23:25	TEttinger	that's extremely odd, yeah
23:25	gfredericks	AFunction is the superclass of any given function literal
23:26	gfredericks	,(supers (class #()))
23:26	clojurebot	#{clojure.lang.AFn clojure.lang.Fn java.util.concurrent.Callable java.lang.Runnable clojure.lang.IFn ...}
23:26	TEttinger	,(clojure.string/join " " (supers (class #())))
23:27	clojurebot	"class clojure.lang.AFn interface clojure.lang.Fn interface java.util.concurrent.Callable interface java.lang.Runnable interface clojure.lang.IFn interface clojure.lang.IMeta interface java.util.Comparator class java.lang.Object interface java.io.Serializable class clojure.lang.AFunction interface clojure.lang.IObj"
23:27	TEttinger	,(clojure.string/join " " (supers (class {})))
23:27	clojurebot	"interface clojure.lang.IEditableCollection interface clojure.lang.ILookup class clojure.lang.APersistentMap class clojure.lang.AFn interface clojure.lang.MapEquivalence interface clojure.lang.IHashEq interface java.lang.Iterable interface java.util.concurrent.Callable interface clojure.lang.IPersistentMap interface clojure.lang.Associative interface java.lang.Runnable interface clojure...
23:28	gfredericks	AFn is in there, but AFunction shouldn't be
23:29	TEttinger	,(re-seq #"\w+ (.+?AFunction)" (clojure.string/join " " (supers (class {}))))
23:29	clojurebot	nil
23:29	TEttinger	,(re-seq #"\w+ (.+?AFn)" (clojure.string/join " " (supers (class {}))))
23:29	clojurebot	(["interface clojure.lang.IEditableCollection interface clojure.lang.ILookup class clojure.lang.APersistentMap class clojure.lang.AFn" "clojure.lang.IEditableCollection interface clojure.lang.ILookup class clojure.lang.APersistentMap class clojure.lang.AFn"])
23:29	gfredericks	oh wait
23:29	gfredericks	I lied
23:29	gfredericks	it stores it as an AFn
23:29	TEttinger	heh
23:29	TEttinger	crisis averted!
23:30	gfredericks	indeed
23:30	gfredericks	clojure is saved
23:30	gfredericks	also now I know exactly what happens when you def something in a function
23:31	TEttinger	what's your reason for doing this, gfredericks?
23:31	TEttinger	are you doing optimizations on clojure's core?
23:31	gfredericks	oh heck no
23:31	gfredericks	just making a talk on vars
23:32	justin_smith	gfredericks: wait, what is stored as an AFn?
23:32	gfredericks	justin_smith: the metadata map
23:32	justin_smith	fascinating
23:32	gfredericks	but a map is an AFn so it's okay
23:32	gfredericks	weird but okay
23:33	gfredericks	seems to necessitate extra checkcasts