#clojure – 2014-11-18

2014-11-18

00:03	fairuz1	Ok, seems I'm getting a hang of the piece of code you gave just now :)
00:09	fairuz1	justin_smith: this is difficult stuff :)
04:01	zarkone	hello all! Please, give me aquick explanation or link why " cond requires an even number of forms"
04:02	andyf	zarkone: Because it is always (cond <test1> <result1> <test2> <result2> ...)
04:02	andyf	every test must have a corresponding result
04:02	zarkone	andyf: oh, seeems like i write clauses wrong, thanks!
04:02	justin_smith	zarkone: for a default form, you can provide a truthy test
04:03	justin_smith	,(cond false 0 nil 1 :default 2)
04:03	clojurebot	2
04:03	justin_smith	,(cond false 0 nil 1 :foo 2)
04:03	clojurebot	2
04:03	justin_smith	anything works there, but :default is considered standard
04:04	zarkone	thanks all, im stupid, should look at docs next time. I just wrote it like in CL
04:04	andyf	justin_smith: I think :else is somewhat more common than :default, but I've seen both used, and even true
04:04	justin_smith	zarkone: it took me a long time to stop trying to write CL style let :)
04:04	justin_smith	andyf: definitely
04:05	andyf	zarkone: clojuredocs.org is pretty decent for examples, in addition to the built-in doc strings.
04:05	justin_smith	,(cond false 0 nil 1 0 2) ; if you want to mess with the C programmers
04:05	clojurebot	2
04:06	zarkone	andyf: thanks, i use docstring in emacs like C-c C-d d, very convinient. Like other things in CIDER
04:16	justin_smith	,(cond false 0 nil 1 () 2) ; if you want to mess with the lispers
04:16	clojurebot	2
04:32	rurumate	,(quote 'a)
04:32	clojurebot	(quote a)
04:32	rurumate	,(#(quote %) 'a)
04:32	clojurebot	p1__49#
04:33	rurumate	,(quote 'a)
04:33	clojurebot	(quote a)
04:34	rurumate	uhm
04:34	rurumate	what seems to be the problem here?
04:34	rurumate	,(quote 'a)
04:34	clojurebot	(quote a)
04:34	justin_smith	what's the problem? that's what quote does
04:34	justin_smith	,''a
04:34	clojurebot	(quote a)
04:34	rurumate	that returns a in my repl, not (quote a)
04:34	andyf	quote is a special form, not a function
04:35	justin_smith	,(quote a)
04:35	clojurebot	a
04:35	hyPiRion	,'#(quote %)
04:35	clojurebot	(fn* [p1__172#] (quote p1__172#))
04:40	rurumate	,''a
04:40	clojurebot	(quote a)
04:41	clgv	rurumate: one quote is "completed" during `eval`
04:42	rurumate	,'''a
04:42	clojurebot	(quote (quote a))
04:42	clgv	(eval (quote x)) -> x
04:43	clgv	for all x ;)
04:44	clgv	rurumate: do you want a function that returns quoted forms?
04:44	clgv	,((fn [x] `(quote ~x)) 'b)
04:44	clojurebot	(quote b)
04:46	fairuz1	hey justin_smith. Just want to say thanks. I think I make it work. :)
04:46	justin_smith	very cool
04:51	fairuz1	indeed
04:53	rurumate	clgv: splendid, thanks!
04:54	clgv	rurumate: that one is tricky. I think I rediscovered it at least twice in the last two years ;)
05:02	dysfun	i'm having a very bizarre error. wrap-session is causing a nullpointerexception to be thrown. commenting it out works fine, trying it in the repl, it appears to do the right thing. any ideas?
05:03	justin_smith	dysfun: do you have a cookie from the same host, but a different app, such that different keys are stored in the cookie?
05:03	dysfun	no
05:04	justin_smith	I have run into that one before... really weird bug
05:04	justin_smith	(ie. the app only breaks on one guy's browser...)
05:05	dysfun	only cookies are ones i'm expecting to see
05:05	justin_smith	with the expected contents?
05:05	dysfun	there's only one related to ring, csrftoken
05:06	dysfun	the session isn't being set, so there's no session cookie at all
05:06	justin_smith	what specific call or operation in wrap-session is getting the npe?
05:07	dysfun	heh, you don't think it gave me any such useful information do you?
05:07	justin_smith	so the stack stopped at wrap-session?
05:08	dysfun	it appears to come from the preceding middleware, keyword-params
05:09	dysfun	wrap-session is invoked thus : (wrap-session f {:store (cookie-store)})
05:11	dysfun	from the missing stacktrace line, it sounds like wrap-session is returning nil, effectively
05:11	justin_smith	dysfun: there are libs (including groundhog, which I wrote) that can serialize a ring request to a data literal, such that you can load or inline the data literal in a unit test, and narrow down which middleware is breaking (and sometimes, which parts of the request make it break)
05:12	dysfun	ooh, groundhog looks nice
05:13	dysfun	i have some interesting ideas for using that for some other things
05:13	justin_smith	I've found it useful for narrowing down issues in ring handlers / middleware
05:31	dysfun	justin_smith: so i've wrapped groundhog, and i still get my NPE. and no useful output?
05:32	dysfun	those have presumably been stored somewhere?
05:32	justin_smith	dysfun: the idea is that with the serialized request you have a few options: write unit tests that run that request against your handler (the ring server need not be running) or modify and replay until you figure out the minimal cause of the error
05:33	rurumate	,(type (quote []))
05:33	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentVector
05:34	rurumate	,(type (quote '[]))
05:34	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList
05:34	rurumate	how does that become a list?
05:34	justin_smith	,(quote '[])
05:34	clojurebot	(quote [])
05:34	justin_smith	that's a list
05:35	hyPiRion	list with the symbol quote and the vector []
05:35	rurumate	,(first (quote '[]))
05:35	clojurebot	quote
05:35	rurumate	,(first (quote []))
05:35	clojurebot	nil
05:36	dysfun	,(= ''[] '(quote []))
05:36	clojurebot	true
05:37	rurumate	(= '(quote []) (quote '[]))
05:37	rurumate	,(= '(quote []) (quote '[]))
05:37	clojurebot	true
05:37	dysfun	' is a reader macro that is expanded into (quote )
05:38	clgv	,(read-string "'[]")
05:38	clojurebot	(quote [])
05:38	dysfun	i'd like to see some sort of source mapping in metadata for the reader one day
05:46	clgv	dysfun: what is that supposed to mean?
05:46	clgv	dysfun: there is :line and :col metadata for lists in clojure
05:47	clgv	sadly not for the other literals...
05:48	dysfun	no, i'd like to map reader macro expansion back to original syntax
05:49	dysfun	so you'd be able to distinguish for example between (quote ...) and '
05:49	dysfun	i'd also like to track it for "real" macro expansion
05:49	dysfun	but it's nontrivial and i haven't thought of a good enough use case for it yet to tempt me
05:51	clgv	dysfun: ah ok. sounds interesting for macro expansion
05:51	clgv	dysfun: I have an algorithm DSL were it would be really handy
05:52	dysfun	nod
05:52	dysfun	there are some interesting things i think you can do, but not interesting enough to warrant the time investment. yet.
05:54	clgv	dysfun: yeah, if you do not need it often, it's probably not worth investing time in it
05:55	dysfun	but i might come up with a really cool use case and do it at some point
05:55	dysfun	i also need to go play with that llvm clojure-alike i saw on twitter yesterday
06:00	RobT-	Have you seen these resources yet? clojure.zeef.com
06:05	engblom	I'm able to write macros but not able to detect situations where a macro would do things easier than writing several functions. What material do you recommend for me to read?
06:06	justin_smith	engblom: macros are for syntax
06:07	justin_smith	use them when you need to create a syntax
06:07	justin_smith	for example if there is something you frequently do in your code, that is clumsy to express
06:08	justin_smith	look at what the major macros in clojure are: defn, let, for, loop
06:08	engblom	justin_smith: Thanks
06:28	dysfun	justin_smith: the ring-session thingy was actually my mistake. amusingly i'd forgotten a paren and so it was doing a hash lookup -> nil -> NPE
06:28	justin_smith	nice
06:30	dysfun	times like these i wonder if paredit might help
06:34	justin_smith	it does
06:34	justin_smith	as do rainbo parens
06:34	justin_smith	*rainbow
06:36	dysfun	i use rainbow-parens
06:36	Bronsa	I could never use rainbow parens
06:36	dysfun	$flatmate has suggested whitespace-mode might help if configured better
06:37	dysfun	er show-paren-mode even, you can change backgrounds of sexps apparently
06:37	Bronsa	OTOH I love show-paren
06:37	Bronsa	jinx
06:40	clgv	dysfun: which?
06:41	clgv	engblom: when you want efficient calculations with longs and floats in a reduce-like syntax, you'll need a macro
06:41	clgv	engblom: efficient in the sense that you need to keep unboxed floats and longs
06:44	clgv	s/floats/doubles ;)
06:44	engblom	clgv: Could you give a short example of what you mean?
06:46	clgv	engblom: there is no way to use reduce to calculate more than one long/double result value without boxing
06:47	clgv	engblom: a general example are statistic values aggregate over a collection of entities
06:49	dysfun	clgv: the idea is that you can change the background colour of the entire paren-delimited sexp based on nesting level
06:50	clgv	dysfun: damn, I should have added context - I meant the llvm clojure-alike (didnt see that you wrote sth else after that)
07:00	dysfun	clgv: there's more than one?
07:01	dysfun	i just saw it go by on twitter, had a look at the github page. let me see if i can find it
07:02	clgv	no, but I am not on twitter - I don't know how easy it is to find the correct one ;)
07:02	dysfun	rhine
07:02	dysfun	https://github.com/artagnon/rhine
07:02	clgv	hmm "clojure-inspired" - let's remove the "-inspired" ;)
07:03	dysfun	on the face of it, it looks like clojure
07:03	dysfun	but the reason it piqued my interest is i have an interest in getting clojure working on llvm
07:03	dysfun	and frankly vmkit is unlikely to happen now. would be awesome if it did though
07:04	clgv	"vmkit" is the oracle project?
07:04	dysfun	no, vmkit is the jvm/clr-on-llvm project
07:04	dysfun	i did think about taking it over, but it's starting to look like real work
07:04	clgv	is that just a nickname you gave it?
07:04	dysfun	no, it's called vmkit
07:05	dysfun	http://llvm.org/viewvc/llvm-project/vmkit/
07:05	dysfun	http://vmkit.llvm.org/
07:06	dysfun	it's abandoned (hence my talk of possibly resurrecting it)
07:06	clgv	those other language/vm projects (not jvm, clr and js) always lost their devs. would be awesome if one of the llvm approaches is continually developed
07:06	dysfun	but i have way too much stuff on to do something like that. i think clojure on llvm might be much easier
07:06	dysfun	haha. i tried to port perl to the jvm back in the day
07:06	dysfun	that was fun for a while
07:07	clgv	with efficient C/C++ interop there'd be no reason to start a project in C/C++ anymore ;)
07:08	dysfun	quite
07:08	dysfun	and it's an interesting project. if it's not too tedious it might even keep my attention
07:08	justin_smith	clgv: with efficient C/C++ interop we'd lose a bunch of the guarantees that make clojure nice to use, wouldn't we?
07:09	dysfun	justin_smith: not necessarily. you can model a lot of it in terms of clojure things, like a derefable
07:09	clgv	justin_smith: well you use a lot of guarantees with java interop as well ;)
07:09	justin_smith	clgv: fair point on that if by use you mean lose
07:10	clgv	justin_smith: oops right
07:10	justin_smith	rhyming typos are a bane for me as well
07:10	clgv	is that a general thing for non-native speakers?
07:10	justin_smith	I'm a native speaker, and I do it all the time
07:10	dysfun	words that noone is quite sure how to spell are a good one
07:11	clgv	oh ok. well then probably not ;)
07:11	clgv	justin_smith: I did not notice that in my mother tongue so far...
07:11	dysfun	$previous_client had a 'remuneration' table that annoyed a few of the developers rather too much
07:11	clgv	:D
07:11	justin_smith	haha
07:12	dysfun	er, 'renumeration'. see, my brain automatically corrected it
07:12	clgv	?
07:12	justin_smith	oh, I thought you meant the problem was that the var was misspelled - that's even worse
07:12	justin_smith	when a misspelling becomes canonical in the codebase...
07:12	dysfun	yeah
07:12	dysfun	and it was, because database classes were generated from the db schema
07:13	dysfun	and you'd constantly mistype them. handily the codebase was in perl so you'd at least get a compile time error because strict;
07:14	clgv	"real perl hackers don't use strict" :P
07:14	dysfun	in that case, i've worked with a few "real perl hackers"
07:14	dysfun	(sadly)
07:15	dysfun	but less perl hate please.
07:15	clgv	I have seen those hashsums which were supposed to be programs from fellow students ;)
07:16	dysfun	yes. it's never taught properly. on the other hand, i've had quite a lot of joy programming modern perl in the last few years and have produced clean and elegant code
07:16	dysfun	the reputation is ill-deserved and it's because back in the day it was the only option unless you were insane and so it caught the idiots that now plague php because php wasn't popular
07:17	clgv	it wasn't taught at all at university. they just learned it on there own and found "non-strict" perl that good to use it in most of the exercises ;)
07:17	dysfun	Matt's Script Archive was a bugger for that. to the point that one of the london perl mongers rewrote all of them in cleaner perl that actually understood basic security
07:18	dysfun	it was still ugly old style perl, but at least they weren't hurrendously insecure
07:22	clgv	dysfun: I only used perl once since they had a nice webpage crawler library
07:29	dysfun	WWW::Mechanize? Yes, I'm very fond of it
07:29	dysfun	but i found it really hard after programming mostly clojure for 3 months to go back to dealing with mutable data
07:30	dysfun	even though my perl is tinged with lots of functional idiom anyway
07:31	dysfun	i'd love to see what advice rich hickey would give the perl 5 porters if asked about how to improve perl as a language
07:31	Ember-	I know the answer
07:32	Ember-	"dump mutability, embrace immutability"
07:32	dysfun	you'd be surprised how little you actually use mutability in perl
07:32	dysfun	quite a lot of things tend to be chaining of lists through function calls
07:33	Ember-	you can do that in every language :)
07:33	Ember-	more or less
07:33	dysfun	and yes, we did sort of implement a macro system for perl. and yes i know it's a silly complicated language
07:33	Ember-	hehe
07:34	dysfun	there are even battle tested libraries using it to transform code into something resembling more familiar syntax
07:34	dysfun	implementing try/catch for example
07:34	dysfun	(although Try::Tiny fakes it well enough, except that return() behaves wrongly
07:35	clgv	yes mechanize sounds about right. nowadays, I'd just use Clojure for that task
07:35	dysfun	i haven't found a DOM manipulation library that i like
07:35	dysfun	and there's a Mechanize wrapper that uses HTML::Tree which has a quite nice interface, so i'd use perl
07:40	dysfun	i'm a little confused about how compojure works. I see in all the examples (which i've been liberally copying and pasting from) that they setup routes like so: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/443138 . But i'm not sure of the flow order
07:40	dysfun	i see that route/not-found is just a simple function call?
07:40	dysfun	how does that work? does the previous entry return nil if it doesn't match or something?
07:41	dysfun	or is it doing wrapping magic?
07:41	weavejester	dysfun: There should be an explanation on the Compojure wiki
07:41	dysfun	if there is, i haven't found it :(
07:43	weavejester	dysfun: The “routes in detail” section should explain it, but perhaps it isn’t clear enough…
07:43	weavejester	dysfun: Essentially routes are handler functions that can return nil
07:43	weavejester	dysfun: The `routes` function tries each handler function in order until it gets a non-nil response
07:44	dysfun	aha. brilliant, thanks.
07:44	Ember-	simple and brilliant
07:44	dysfun	shall i update the wiki?
07:44	Ember-	makes many things so easy
07:47	weavejester	dysfun: If you like. The “routes in detail” page does mention that routes return nil or a response, but the information is spread across the page, and there’s no mention of what the compojure.core/routes function does.
07:47	weavejester	dysfun: So maybe an extra paragraph at the beginning would work
07:47	dysfun	yeah, i didn't link them when i read it
07:49	weavejester	Re-reading that page again, it could be a lot clearer on the overview about how Compojure uses routes.
07:50	dysfun	i'm editing now
07:51	clgv	reduce-kv works on arbitrary maps not only clojure hashmaps, right?
07:51	weavejester	dysfun: I also wrote a blog entry on the design of routes: http://www.booleanknot.com/blog/2012/09/18/routing-in-compojure.html
07:53	clgv	hm no, it does not ...
07:53	clgv	you have to extend the corresponding protocol
07:53	edw	ping
08:03	dysfun	weavejester: https://github.com/weavejester/compojure/wiki/Routes-In-Detail ta-da!
08:04	weavejester	dysfun: Thanks! I’ll tweak it a little though, as I’d prefer `routes` to be introduced first.
08:04	dysfun	of course. documentation is hard :)
08:05	dysfun	of course now i understand what's going on, i find i like compojure just that little bit more
08:09	weavejester	dysfun: That’s a good sign :)
08:09	dysfun	:)
08:12	H4ns	is anyone aware of a clojure ftp+ssl client library? i have found miner.ftp, but that does not seem to support ssl right away.
08:18	clgv	H4ns: maybe you can inject javas SSLSockets via a factory
08:20	H4ns	clgv: sounds like something that is beyond my level of java expertise. i'll try using org.apache.commons.net.ftp.FTPSClient directly
08:24	clgv	H4ns: sounds reasonable as well. I have no idea how much that miner.ftp provides you anyway
08:25	clgv	H4ns: a pattern in java network programming is to have socket factory classes that construct the sockets to use - this way you can exchange a plain socket with ssl sockets for example
08:25	H4ns	clgv: it seems to rely on the java infrastructure to parse the url and then instantiates an FTPClient. It may not be too hard to change that so it can deal with ftps:// in addition to ftp://
08:26	H4ns	clgv: i'll have to understand how protocols are registered so that clojure.java.io/as-url understands them.
08:28	justin_smith	,(.getScheme (java.net.URI. "ftps://foo"))
08:28	clojurebot	"ftps"
08:29	justin_smith	dunno if that means much actually...
08:29	justin_smith	,(.getScheme (java.net.URI. "foo://foo"))
08:29	clojurebot	"foo"
08:29	justin_smith	yeah, probably doesn't mean much
08:29	H4ns	"MalformedURLException unknown protocol: ftps"
08:29	clgv	,(require '[clojure.java.io :as io])
08:29	clojurebot	nil
08:30	clgv	,(io/as-url "ftps://www.bla.com/lala.pdf")
08:30	clojurebot	#<MalformedURLException java.net.MalformedURLException: denied>
08:30	justin_smith	$source clojure.java.io/as-url
08:30	lazybot	Source not found.
08:30	justin_smith	:P
08:30	clgv	interesting
08:30	clgv	,(io/as-url "ftp://www.bla.com/lala.pdf")
08:30	clojurebot	#<MalformedURLException java.net.MalformedURLException: denied>
08:31	justin_smith	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/java/io.clj#L35
08:31	clgv	so on to the javadocs of URL ;)
08:32	justin_smith	&(URL. "ftp://www.bla.com/lala.pdf")
08:32	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Unable to resolve classname: URL
08:32	llasram	Java URLs are explicitly resource "locators", which means there needs to be a (Java-)registered handler for the scheme which supports retrieval of a representation of the resource
08:32	justin_smith	&(java.net.URL. "ftp://www.bla.com/lala.pdf")
08:32	lazybot	⇒ #<URL ftp://www.bla.com/lala.pdf>
08:32	llasram	I thought
08:32	TimMc	j.n.URL and j.n.URI are the worst
08:32	llasram	URI is fine
08:32	TimMc	eh
08:33	soulman_	hi
08:33	justin_smith	is it URL which can be side-effecting and unexpectedly load some network resource just in being created?
08:33	llasram	yes
08:34	justin_smith	I remember something like this that surprised and annoyed me
08:34	justin_smith	so why and what does it load exactly?
08:34	TimMc	llasram: OK, j.n.URL is clearly the worst; j.n.URI has some serious problems.
08:34	llasram	They resolve the hostname to an IP address
08:34	llasram	(j.n.URLs do)
08:34	justin_smith	AHH
08:34	llasram	And use the IP address in the hash
08:34	justin_smith	that's messed up
08:34	llasram	Yeeees
08:35	TimMc	If anyone wants to help hack on a URL library: https://github.com/brightcove/johnny
08:38	TimMc	justin_smith: ##(= (java.net.URL. "http://www.example.net/") (java.net.URL. "http://www.example.com/"))
08:38	lazybot	⇒ false
08:38	tmarsh	any lighttable users know how to disable “remove trailing whitespace” on save?
08:38	TimMc	hmmm
08:38	TimMc	&(= (java.net.URL. "http://example.net/") (java.net.URL. "http://example.com/"))
08:38	lazybot	⇒ false
08:39	llasram	TimMc: Are those equal for you locally?
08:39	jonathanj	how do things like Korma or Hyperion perform their queries? are they synchronous?
08:39	jonathanj	if i'm performing queries in a ring handler do i have to worry about blocking?
08:39	justin_smith	TimMc: returns true locally, oracle jdk 8
08:39	justin_smith	,(clojure-version)
08:39	clojurebot	"1.7.0-master-SNAPSHOT"
08:39	TimMc	llasram: I've had that (or .equals) return true.
08:40	justin_smith	llasram: can verify
08:40	TimMc	Oh! lazybot is blocking the network lookup, I bet.
08:40	justin_smith	oh, yeah, sandbax magik
08:40	TimMc	,(.equals (java.net.URL. "http://example.net/") (java.net.URL. "http://example.com/"))
08:40	clojurebot	#<MalformedURLException java.net.MalformedURLException: denied>
08:40	llasram	Heh
08:40	kungi	Can I prevent leiningen from running my test fixtures when I spcify a specific test-selector?
08:40	TimMc	,(.printStackTrace *e)
08:40	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: printStackTrace for class clojure.lang.Var$Unbound>
08:40	TimMc	:-P
08:40	kungi	When I run lein test :unit it still runs the :once fixture from my integration tests
08:40	justin_smith	kungi: I bet you could, but I don't think it would be worth the effort it would take
08:41	clgv	TimMc: clojurebot is not a repl ;)
08:41	TimMc	nonsense :-)
08:41	wiruzx	(+ 2 2)
08:41	clojurebot	4
08:41	wiruzx	heh
08:42	llasram	`true` here too. That's actually even crazier behavior than I thought it had
08:42	kungi	justin_smith: my integration tests take a long time to start because they start a firefox with selenium stuff. So It would really make sense to exclude this fixture.
08:42	justin_smith	kungi: put them in a different namespace
08:43	clgv	kungi: isnt there selection by metadata?
08:43	justin_smith	clgv: that does not effect a :once fixture
08:43	kungi	clgv: Yes but only for the tests
08:43	justin_smith	clgv: that is just a fixture that decides which tests get called iirc
08:43	clgv	skip using the fixture and just explicitely wrap those test with robert.hooke?
08:44	justin_smith	I think putting unit tests and integration tests in different namespaces is the right thing to do anyway
08:44	clgv	justin_smith: true
08:44	justin_smith	if they aren't in the same namespace, the fixture isn't an issue
08:45	notofi	Hi, what is the idiomatic way to assoc something to a core.cache ? https://github.com/clojure/core.cache/wiki/Using says that the has?/hit/miss pattern should be used, what If I just want to call assoc on a cache ?
08:45	kungi	justin_smith: so I should use project-name.unit.test-1 and project-name.integration.test-1 as namespaces
08:46	justin_smith	kungi: yeah, that would be how I would do it, or maybe project-name.my-ns-unit and project-name.my-ns-integration
08:46	clgv	kungi: and the lein aliases :D
08:48	mavbozo	jonathanj: yes, the query blocks the thread
08:51	justin_smith	well, they will block the thread handling that request, which slows down your response, but it won't block other response threads
08:51	jonathanj	presumably casually creating a thread for every request is not a terribly good design
08:52	justin_smith	jonathanj: it's a thread pool
08:52	justin_smith	jonathanj: the lib is doing it for you
08:52	jonathanj	how do i create a thread? (thread)?
08:52	justin_smith	yeah, or (future)
08:52	justin_smith	but you don't need to in this case
08:52	jonathanj	i found this: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/clojure/Aj2njGQtPN0/PMVOigU2fDAJ
08:53	jonathanj	justin_smith: how so?
08:53	justin_smith	jonathanj: your server creates a thread pool, and your handler is run in one of the threads
08:54	justin_smith	go blocks are another beast entirely
08:54	rurumate	How do I map with a macro? Can't take value of a macro. Is there a way around it?
08:54	justin_smith	rurumate: call the macro inside a function
08:54	dysfun	#()
08:54	rurumate	hmm
08:55	TimMc	rurumate: In the general case, no.
08:55	justin_smith	,(map #(and % %2) [1 2 nil] [3 4 5])
08:55	clojurebot	(3 4 nil)
08:55	justin_smith	and is a macro
08:56	TimMc	and/or are interesting because they can be used for control flow or for logical-boolean computations (or both).
08:56	kungi	clgv: Lein aliases?
08:57	clgv	kungi: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj#L204
09:02	justin_smith	jonathanj: to elaborate, notice he says "io should not be done inside a go block" - a requestion handler is the middle piece between two IO operations, that's what this particular thread pool is meant for
09:02	TimMc	rurumate: This is why macros are to be avoided unless necessary.
09:12	clgv	how do you define overloads in `definterface`
09:12	clgv	all arities in one method declaration?
09:14	clgv	seems to be one by one
09:17	clgv	different topic: are inliner with different arities possible? e.g. {:inline (fn ([x] ...) ([x y] ...))}
09:17	Bronsa	yup
09:18	Bronsa	+/-/* etc do that for example
09:21	clgv	Bronsa: ok, it was not the inliner arity but a strange reflection warning. it disappeared after lein clean and repl restart ... O_o
09:22	clgv	Bronsa: does `definterface` have `defonce` semantic?
09:24	Bronsa	don't think so
09:26	clgv	*.class files prevail over dynamic definterface on repl?
09:27	irctc	if I have a lein profile :my-profile which defines resource-paths and I run "lein with-profile my-profile uberjar", shouldn't the resources be included in the jar, even if I also have a :uberjar profile
09:28	irctc	for some reason the resources are not included
09:28	mmitchell	day 2 of trying to get a simple gen-class annotation to work :/ The clojure docs say annotations work, so I believe it! But I need to add a simple (@Stage), non-java.lang annotation, and that doesn't seem to work. Any Java + Clojure gurus here that could help shed some light on this?
09:29	clgv	mmitchell: which docs say that this will work? and why didnt you just write the class in java as adviced? ;)
09:30	mmitchell	clgv: I knew you were going to bust me on that :)
09:30	mmitchell	OK not "docs", but here in the clojure source/example: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/test/clojure/test_clojure/genclass/examples.clj#L34
09:30	justin_smith	mmitchell: "simple", "gen-class" - does not compute
09:31	mmitchell	yeah, seriously
09:31	clgv	mmitchell: is there any test querying that class and the supposed annotations?
09:32	clgv	ah that test is in a comment
09:32	clgv	mmitchell: did you try whether that test can pass ?
09:32	justin_smith	mmitchell: did you see this? https://gist.github.com/richhickey/377213
09:32	justin_smith	comes from a reputable source :)
09:32	mmitchell	clgv: no I haven't tried that yet
09:32	clgv	mmitchell: but hey, about how many classes are we talking?
09:32	mmitchell	justin_smith: cool will read
09:32	mmitchell	clgv: just 1
09:33	justin_smith	looks like annotations in clojure don't use @
09:33	clgv	mmitchell: well then just write it in plain java, everything else is wasting time ;)
09:34	clgv	except for a learning exercise, but even then... well you learned to love gen-class right?
09:34	mmitchell	yes :)
09:35	justin_smith	clgv: we should petition to rename gen-class to generate-class-in-the-most-difficult-and-complex-manner
09:35	black_13	can clojure be used with eclipse
09:35	clgv	justin_smith: haha :P
09:35	mmitchell	it was partially learning (it's a side project) but also was hoping to show a few java colleagues that clojure is an alternative, but better to just get things moving forward
09:35	black_13	from what google says "yes"
09:35	justin_smith	black_13: yes, there is the counterclockwise plugin
09:35	clgv	justin_smith: we just need reify-class and be done with it ;)
09:35	justin_smith	haha
09:36	clgv	there is actually a ticket for it
09:36	justin_smith	mmitchell: as you see in that gist, you can do annotations, and class creation (via deftype) without gen-class
09:36	mmitchell	justin_smith: yeah reading that now, i'll give that a shot
09:36	justin_smith	gen-class is typically the hard way, and only worth trying if other options fail
09:37	clgv	justin_smith: undocumented feature, yay. going to break without announcement
09:38	justin_smith	clgv: so do you think that gist indicates that annotations are inferred from metadata, or that metadata is implemented via the annotation mechanism?
09:38	clgv	justin_smith: the compiler infers it from metadata
09:39	justin_smith	cool
09:39	clgv	justin_smith: if it does, I have not tested any of it
09:39	clgv	metadata itself is directly implemented in clojures java implementation
09:39	justin_smith	clgv: OK, so it's definitely not using annotation
09:40	clgv	justin_smith: primitive types long and double are also possible for deftype fields
09:40	clgv	same principle
09:41	mmitchell	justin_smith: ahh, but my class must extend from another (java class) so I don't think deftype will work?
09:41	justin_smith	mmitchell: than maybe proxy would work
09:41	justin_smith	*then
09:42	mmitchell	justin_smith: can you use proxy and export a named class somehow?
09:43	justin_smith	hmm...
09:43	justin_smith	now you may be in gen-class territory, sadly
09:43	mmitchell	rats
09:43	justin_smith	this interop code for putting annotations on things does not look to bad https://github.com/richhickey/clojure/commit/fa899d22dceb531d9f5af833ac6af0d956e6bdc7#diff-d951a5cd799ae841ffcc6b45598180dbR3846
09:48	llasram	mmitchell: My experience is that Java is a pretty decent DSL for defining Java classes
09:48	mmitchell	llasram: and do you then call clojure from your java classes? Or just go with java all the way?
09:48	llasram	And that the path of least resistence if you you need concrete classes esp with annotions is to create a small Java class which can trampoline into abritrary Clojure code via a passed-in IFn
09:48	llasram	The former
09:49	mmitchell	interesting
09:50	mmitchell	llasram: so your java class imports clojure-based classes, then calls methods on instances of the clojure class? Or something different?
09:50	clgv	mmitchell: so back again - write it in java ;)
09:50	mmitchell	ha yes :)
09:50	clgv	you can use the official clojure api to get hold of your functions
09:50	mmitchell	definitely learning something from this@
09:50	llasram	mmitchell: The former, exactly. Clojure 1.6 even introduced an official public Java API
09:50	llasram	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/changes.md#21-java-api
09:50	mmitchell	oh?
09:50	mmitchell	clgv: is that what you mean ^^ ?
09:51	clgv	mmitchell: yes.
09:51	mmitchell	awesome, reading now
09:52	justin_smith	this is what people refer to as "making a shim class", right?
09:52	llasram	An instance of it, certainly
09:52	clgv	justin_smith: heard it in that context yes
09:52	justin_smith	where the class is only just enough to have the properties the java code demands of it, and everything else is just calls to clojure stuff
09:52	clgv	in some datomic talk that was a topic, afair
09:53	clgv	justin_smith: we could call it "inverse proxy" in contrast to clojure's "proxy" ;)
09:53	llasram	Yeah, rhickey had a short impromptu lightning talk where he talked about that approach in terms of Datomic for the Java API it exposes
09:54	llasram	mmitchell: This class was supporting Clojure 1.5.1 so doesn't use the explicit 1.6+ API yet, but is an example of the basic approach: https://github.com/damballa/parkour/blob/master/src/java/parkour/hadoop/Partitioner.java
09:55	mmitchell	llasram: nice, that makes sense. Going to give it a go now
09:57	llasram	One thing which may be non-obvious there is pushing the vars into a static nested class which are `require`d in a static initializer. I think it's going to be fixed in Clojure 1.7, but right now Clojure can be overly aggressive about initializing referenced classes
09:57	clgv	llasram: writing such a class feels like playing clojure compiler ;)
09:58	llasram	Pushing the vars into a separate class defers the `require` until they are actually needed, which can simplify cases where you'd otherwise have a recursive dependency
09:58	clgv	llasram: ah you mean when clojure imports that class as well?
10:00	llasram	clgv: A tiny bit. This case would probably work mostly-okay with `gen-class` and AOT, but AOT isn't an option for libraries
10:01	llasram	Yep, to configure Hadoop jobs to use the class, need to mention it in Clojure code doing the configuration
10:02	clgv	llasram: so in principle the problem is some kind of circular dependency between the Clojure ns using the class and implementing the used functions and the class itself
10:11	llasram	clgv: Exactly. And in principle you could avoid that by never mentioning the class in the namespace implementing its functionality, but I've found that to be that a pretty hand-tying contstraint in practice
10:17	clgv	llasram: ok. I haven't done that kind of interop so far
10:34	EvanR	so, jargon question. wtf is "decomplected"
10:35	EvanR	sounds cromulent
10:36	mgaare	EvanR: Rich Hickey talks about it here http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy
10:37	mgaare	EvanR: "complect" means to tie or braid together. decomplect means to pull apart. It's part of a design philosophy which aims to take the different elements and concerns in a system and not intertwine them
10:39	EvanR	noted
10:44	black_13	justin_smith: i have installed the conterclockwise plugin however every time i create a new project i get the error "connection reset Reason: Exception while creating new project"
10:46	mishok13	hey
10:47	mishok13	having a bit of a trouble with writing a macro that should generate functions
10:47	mishok13	https://gist.github.com/mishok13/d66156a6bf45f83c7247
10:48	mishok13	basically, I'ld like fnk-creator to behave the same way regardless of whether it was a map literal passed to it or a var
10:49	stuartsierra	mishok13: You can't do that without evaluating the Var.
10:50	stuartsierra	`eval` would work, or `(var-get (resolve symbol))`
10:51	Bronsa	is there any difference between var-get and deref on a Var I'm not aware of?
10:52	mishok13	stuartsierra: i'm confused as to where would I eval?
10:52	stuartsierra	Bronsa: Oh, I think I meant var-get.
10:52	stuartsierra	I mean deref.
10:52	stuartsierra	sheesh
10:53	stuartsierra	mishok13: Your macro would have to eval `args`
10:53	Bronsa	it seems like var-get might be slightly faster than deref for non dynamic vars?
10:53	stuartsierra	I think var-get was intended for use in `with-local-vars`
10:54	stuartsierra	`deref` is the standard way to get the value bound to a Var.
10:56	Bronsa	they seem to behave exactly the same
10:56	mishok13	stuartsierra: seems to have done the trick
10:56	mishok13	cheers
10:56	Bronsa	meh, I'll just keep ignoring var-get/var-set then
10:59	RobT-	Nice clojure resources https://clojure.zeef.com/vlad.bokov
11:01	Bronsa	technomancy: it's the second time today that RobT- joins, spams that site and leaves
11:02	Bronsa	technomancy: I'd say if he does it a third time he shouldn't get to do it a fourth
11:09	bja	who are these top analyts? what are their credentials?
11:10	bja	s/analyts/analysts/
11:10	clgv	bja: ask technomancy he seems to be their pr guy ;)
11:13	technomancy	Bronsa: just let me know; in a pm if need be
11:13	the_frey	does anybody else have the issue that cider often starts and then dies with an end of process buffer error, but always works the second time you start it?
11:13	technomancy	also: someone who talks with rich should get him to appoint another op
11:13	the_frey	I'm pretty new to emacs so assuming I've set something up wrong...
11:14	technomancy	tbaldridge, stuartsierra: ^ east coast ops would be a good idea, just sayin'
11:14	stuartsierra	technomancy: yeah. Are you the only op?
11:15	stuartsierra	the_frey: yes, frequently
11:15	technomancy	stuartsierra: apart from rich and chouser, who I haven't seen on in over a year
11:16	stuartsierra	technomancy: Yeah, I'll try to remember for after the Conj. I could do it, maybe puredanger.
11:18	the_frey	stuartsierra ah okay, is it just one of those things that happens from time to time then?
11:20	stuartsierra	the_frey: Beats me. I don't expect consistent behavior from CIDER anymore.
11:21	TimMc	stuartsierra: Even without updating it?
11:22	stuartsierra	TimMc: yes, I'm still on 0.7
11:28	technomancy	0.6 was the best
11:28	technomancy	"cider classic"
11:32	sdegutis	Did you hear about this new Pixie language?
11:32	sdegutis	It's a new kind of Clojure dialect.
11:33	TimMc	Not just a new dialect, but a whole new kind of dialect? Wow!
11:33	sdegutis	Right!
11:33	sdegutis	It's magicalish.
11:33	tbaldridge	and very, very alpha
11:33	technomancy	a new kind of science
11:34	sdegutis	tbaldridge: citation needed
11:34	tbaldridge	I wrote it
11:34	sdegutis	tbaldridge: I don't see that anywhere on the readme.
11:34	sdegutis	That it's very very alpha.
11:34	sdegutis	It says "pre-alpha" but I don't know what that means.
11:35	tbaldridge	that means it's not even alpha yet. As in some things work really well, other things will segfault.
11:35	sdegutis	Oh :)
11:36	tbaldridge	and other stuff, like the ability to open and read files isn't implemented yet. But hey, I can count numbers and sum the contents of vectors really fast :-)
11:36	sdegutis	Well there you go, that's already half the battle.
11:36	sdegutis	And in only 6 instructions, too!
11:37	technomancy	how fast is fibbonacci, that's what I want to know
11:38	csd_	Is there any way to dynamically load new dependencies from the REPL? ie without having to create a project.clj?
11:38	sdegutis	csd_: lein-try
11:39	csd_	what if I'm inside cider though?
11:39	cursork	csd_: alembic.still
11:39	sdegutis	csd_: I don't know what cider is sorry.
11:39	csd_	emacs repl for clojuree
11:40	clgv	so clojure on python gets revived with a different name?
11:41	clgv	or is it clojure on pypy?
11:41	tbaldridge	clgv: no, it's not on python, it's rpython. Picture a lisp written in C with a GC/JIT
11:42	clgv	tbaldridge: ok, seems I need to find out what RPython is ;)
11:42	csd_	cursork: so i just add that to my profiles.clj and can then load whatever i want? sounds too great to be true
11:42	cursork	csd_: Yep. I haven't had any issues with it
11:42	csd_	wow
11:42	csd_	leiningen should just merge it
11:44	sdegutis	csd_: So it's like nrepl.el?
11:44	sdegutis	tbaldridge: what do you think of femtolisp?
11:45	csd_	i would guess so, although i'm not familiar with that
11:48	stuartsierra	csd_: lein-try is for launching a new REPL with specific dependencies without a project.clj
11:49	stuartsierra	If you're already running a REPL process, you can't change the dependencies without restarting.
11:49	stuartsierra	There are tools that try (https://github.com/cemerick/pomegranate) but I'm not sure how well it works in practice.
11:50	technomancy	you can add new deps without too much trouble, but upgrading usually won't work
11:50	stuartsierra	ah, makes sense
11:50	csd_	I just want an easy way to experiment with a new library, thats all
11:50	H4ns	i'm such a java noob, sorry: if i use (gen-class foo), should i not be able to instantiate a foo instance using (foo.)? i see "Unable to resolve classname: foo" instead.
11:50	stuartsierra	csd_: lein-try if you want to launch a new REPL with the library included, that's what it's for.
11:51	csd_	stuartsierra: i cant use that with cider though
11:51	stuartsierra	csd_: once you've launched the REPL you can connect to it with cider
11:51	csd_	so start the repl server externally?
11:51	stuartsierra	csd_: yes
11:51	csd_	interesting
11:52	stuartsierra	H4ns: gen-class isn't interactive; it only works when Ahead-of-Time (AOT) compiling.
11:53	H4ns	stuartsierra: ah, ok. would compiling the buffer in cider do what i expect? or is there some other way?
11:53	stuartsierra	H4ns: No.
11:53	technomancy	you can run clojure.core/compile from the repl
11:53	technomancy	but the gen-class has to be on disk
11:54	H4ns	ah, okay, thank you both!
11:59	cromwell	Hi. I have programming clojure by Stuart Holloway first edition. Has the language changed too much to make it not useful
12:00	csd_	stuartsierra: There's an hack evidently to use lein try with emacs.
12:00	csd_	(setq inferior-lisp-program "lein try <lib>") and then M-x inferior-lisp
12:00	technomancy	you can do that without a plugin
12:00	mavbozo	cromwell: it is still a useful book
12:01	technomancy	just set it to lein update-in :dependencies conj '[whatever "version"]' -- repl
12:02	csd_	what's the last part, -- repl do?
12:02	technomancy	csd_: launches a repl with a modified project map
12:02	technomancy	update-in is a higher-order task; it takes a task as an arg
12:02	cromwell	Mavbozo: ok good it is the core concepts I am keen to learn. New stuff like core.async etc I can learn elsewhere
12:03	m1dnight_	hrm, a (binding) seems to introduce an error "can not regur across try"
12:03	cromwell	Are there any useful core language features that have changed since 2009
12:03	m1dnight_	does it use that somewheree?
12:03	m1dnight_	I'm wanting to wrap a body of a function in a binding
12:04	TimMc	and you're using loop or recur or lazy-seq or something?
12:04	m1dnight_	Yeah, in the function body there is a recur
12:05	m1dnight_	h, so the binding should wrap the scope containing the recur?
12:05	TimMc	You may need to extract a helper fn that just does the bindings.
12:05	TimMc	*wrapper fn
12:06	justin_smith	black_13: do you have leiningen installed?
12:06	hyPiRion	cromwell: I think there are some new features, but I wouldn't say it's critical to get you up and running.
12:07	cromwell	Ok thanks I will give it a go
12:07	hyPiRion	cromwell: The only thing I can think of is Leiningen, probably.
12:07	cromwell	I was given it so :)
12:16	kzar	I added "{:user {:plugins [[cider/cider-nrepl "0.8.0-SNAPSHOT"]]}}" to my ~/.lein/profiles.clj as instructed but when I M-x cider-jack-in I am told that cider-nrepl isn't installed. Is there another step to trigger the installation after adding the plugin to my profiles.clj?
12:18	csd_	kzar: Did you install the emacs package today?
12:18	sm0ke	any duckling developers here?
12:18	kzar	csd_: Well I already had it installed, unfortunately I also had a really old version of the pre-rename nrepl installed as well so I just removed that
12:19	csd_	upgrade and delete the old package
12:19	csd_	i had a similar problem and this fixed it
12:19	kzar	csd_: Already deleted the old package, will see if I can upgrade the new one
12:19	m1dnight_	This got me up and running, if it can be of any help: http://www.braveclojure.com/using-emacs-with-clojure/
12:19	csd_	kzar: MELPA gets a new build basically every time there is an update on github
12:20	kzar	m1dnight_ csd_: My question really is do I need to do something to trigger cider-nrepl installing after I've added the relevant bits to my profiles.clj?
12:20	csd_	no it should happen automatically
12:24	m1dnight_	kzar: What i'm saying is that I haven't done it that way. I installed the cider package. If that works, great
12:24	m1dnight_	but I have only tried this way, and nothing else
12:25	csd_	kzar: my laptop battery is about to die very soon. one other thing you can try if this doesn't work though is to delete all the CIDER libs under ~/.m2
12:25	kenrestivo	lookupName(pfds[i].fd), pfds[i].fd);
12:25	csd_	i've also had weird problems caused by those before
12:25	kzar	csd_ m1dnight_: OK thanks. Hmm upgrading didn't help but I'll restart emacs and then try that
12:25	kenrestivo	meh paste fail.
12:28	kzar	\o/ that worked :)
12:29	csd_	awesome
12:29	kzar	ty for the help
12:29	csd_	which did, upgrading the package, or deleting the libs?
12:29	kzar	csd_: So I had nrepl 0.2 or something installed, a random version of cider from I guess a few weeks / months ago. I uninstalled nrepl, upgraded cider, restarted emacs and then it started working
12:30	kzar	csd_: (I also tried restarting cider before restarting emacs and that didn't work)
12:30	kungi	How do I use cider-grimoire properly? I only get the html of the page?
12:30	kzar	csd_: Not messed with the stuff in ~/.m2
12:30	csd_	kungi: if you're only getting html double check that you're actually doing it on top of a symbol
12:31	kungi	csd_ I am. C-c C-d h opens the proper symbol in my browser.
12:31	kungi	maybe my cider is too old ...
12:31	arrdem	kungi: waaaait before you update there's a ticket open for this
12:32	arrdem	https://github.com/clojure-emacs/cider/issues/867
12:32	kungi	arrdem: I always have a snapshot version number ready where everything works and copy my whole emacs config on a cider update
12:32	kungi	cider broke too often in the past
12:33	arrdem	ikr
12:33	kungi	ikr?
12:33	arrdem	I know right
12:34	arrdem	kungi: so if that ticket is right, I'd try clearing the .elcs in your cider package dir and restarting emacs
12:35	kungi	arrdem: I will try this
12:40	black_13	justin_smith: i thought leinigen was installed with the eclipse plugin
12:40	kzar	Anyone use kioo here? I get a bunch of warnings when using it, that normal?
12:46	kungi	arrdem: \o/ removing the .elcs did the trick
12:46	arrdem	kungi: -_- okay please comment on that thread saying so.
12:46	kungi	arrdem: will do
12:47	arrdem	kungi: cheers. enjoy plaintext mode :D
12:47	arrdem	glad to know I'm not the only person using it :D
12:49	kungi	commented
12:51	arrdem	thanks.
12:52	kungi	I really have to learn emacs lisp properly.
12:55	irctc	Does Clojure offer any significant benefits over Node.js for web developement. I'm a Node developer and Clojure looks quite interesting language wise, but how is the eco system for web developers? Thanks!
12:55	arrdem	kungi: if you have comments on the text/plain formatting I'd like to hear them.
12:55	arrdem	https://github.com/clojure-grimoire/grimoire/issues/68
12:56	tuft	irctc: one of the biggest advantages is the language itself. here's a good talk i watched the other day: https://vimeo.com/111214648
12:57	tuft	irctc: .. and yes, there's a pretty solid web development ecosystem AFAICT
12:57	tuft	both client and server side
12:58	tuft	irctc: ClojureScript can run on Node.js, too, so you have a nice pathway for dabbling
12:59	irctc	tuft, thanks. Have you used Clojure in production?
13:00	tuft	irctc: for my own projects, yes, but not commercially yet
13:00	CljNoob	how would I call a function f with its argument x repeated n times? so f x x ... x where the number of x's is n
13:00	arrdem	CljNoob: (apply f (repeat n x))
13:01	CljNoob	arrdem: awesome, let me try that
13:02	CljNoob	arrdem: lovely, exactly what i needed. thanks
13:02	irctc	tuft: alright. Have you faced any major hurdles when using Clojure on your projects?
13:04	tuft	irctc: shrug not really. it's something new to learn like anything else. tooling seems like it'd be on par with nodejs, but i have no experience with nodejs
13:06	clrnd	clojrue has great constructs for functional programming, which node lacks (in general)
13:06	tuft	yeah no need to bolt on something like underscore.js to get a partial solution for FP
13:08	irctc	tuft: I was considering using Clojure to build a commercial production grade system. Node.js is the safe bet for me since I know that best. But, Node projects have creative ways of failing in production :/. Well to be honest, it's more of a JS probelm than a Node problem.
13:08	tuft	irctc: yeah check out that talk i pasted -- it's super relevant to those concerns i think
13:09	tuft	irctc: it's hard to disagree with clojure being the better designed language i think
13:10	tuft	irctc: given JS was basically designed hurriedly over a few weeks, heh
13:11	irctc	tuft: Indeed, but with Node.js its very easy to get things done fast, since the ecosystem is really good and npm is extremely straightforward to use.
13:11	TimMc	irctc: Don't worry, Clojure projects also have creative ways of failing in production! Yay software.
13:11	tuft	irctc: try lein and see what you think. i find it quite excellent. does npm install things system-wide?
13:11	clrnd	in clojure it's very easy to get things done correctly
13:12	tuft	(inc clrnd)
13:12	lazybot	⇒ 1
13:12	TimMc	It would be easier with some static typing but I'm happy with the compromise.
13:12	technomancy	TimMc: did you deploy another Enterprise Swearjure app again?
13:12	tuft	yeah fast isn't really fast when it breaks and you lose lots of time to debugging, heh
13:12	technomancy	I keep telling ya that's gotta stop
13:13	TimMc	technomancy: Yes, but this time it uses SOAP so I'm sure it will all be fine.
13:13	irctc	TimMc: Of course :D. But JS is a complete hack.
13:13	tuft	TimMc: core.typed?
13:14	TimMc	I guess I haven't seen any surprises in production that are actually attributable to Clojure itself.
13:14	TimMc	tuft: I'll look into it eventually. :-)
13:16	clgv	TimMc: what do you produce?
13:19	irctc_	tuft: yes, npm allows you to install system wide or only within the project
13:19	TimMc	clgv: I work for Brightcove, which sells online video as a service. Right now we're working on a new playback server (the thing that serves video metadata when a player loads.)
13:19	TimMc	So, web servers.
13:20	clgv	TimMc: web servers and clojure then?
13:20	TimMc	yup
13:20	tuft	yay webservers
13:20	tuft	TimMc: which location are you at?
13:21	TimMc	There are a couple of other public-facing Clojure projects here and I've worked on a couple of those as well.
13:21	TimMc	tuft: Boston, the main office.
13:21	tuft	TimMc: cool. i'm near your seattle location
13:22	TimMc	Oh, the Zencoder folks.
13:22	TimMc	(I actually don't know if they're all Zencoder or if there's more mixing than that.)
13:22	bja	technomancy: any tutorials on architecting a scalable enterprise swearjure javabean?
13:23	technomancy	bja: it's running into some publication issues with censorship
13:23	TimMc	bja: Swearjure isn't so much architected as... extruded.
13:24	bja	:(
13:24	clgv	TimMc: brightcoves german translation for engineer is strange ;)
13:24	TimMc	Oh yeah?
13:25	clgv	translated back it means technician ;)
13:25	clgv	but the image corrects that by showing a guy in front of code ide ;)
13:25	TimMc	Is this on our jobs pages? Maybe I should poke someone.
13:26	clgv	yes
13:27	TimMc	Thanks, I'll try to figure out who that would even be. :-P
13:30	TimMc	clgv: Someone pointed out that because we don't translate brand names, our "Once" product (acquired from another company) gets listed on the Spanish site as (effectively) "Brightcove Eleven".
13:31	hlship	Does "lein repl" compile Java classes before running the REPL?
13:31	technomancy	hlship: yeah
13:31	technomancy	provided :java-source-paths is set
13:32	hlship	I'm on 2.4.3 and I'm not seeing this.
13:33	hlship	:java-source-paths ["java-src"]
13:33	hlship	$ tree java-src/
13:33	hlship	java-src/
13:33	hlship	└── fan
13:33	hlship	└── logging
13:33	hlship	└── CorrelationIdConverter.java
13:33	hlship	2 directories, 1 file
13:34	hlship	But I'm getting a ClassNotFoundException on fan.logging.CorrelationIdConverter
13:34	hlship	things are working in the Cursive REPL
13:34	hlship	I also don't see any *.class files
13:35	technomancy	hm; ok, well if you have a repro case please open an issue
13:35	TimMc	$ tree
13:35	TimMc	🌲
13:36	hlship	It's going to be a pain to extract out, is there any lein debugging I can enable to get some insight?
13:37	bja	IIRC, you can set DEBUG=1 in your environment, and lein gets a lot more chatty
13:38	hlship	lein jar does compile the Java class
14:01	hyPiRion	hlship: does CorrelationIdConverter.java start with `package fan.logging;`?
14:01	hlship	yes
14:02	hyPiRion	hrm, then it should work fine
14:03	hyPiRion	(theoretically)
14:04	hlship	Ok, found it.
14:04	hlship	I have a dev-resources/user.clj
14:04	hlship	that sets things up for testing
14:05	whodidthis	whats a cool way to write string? but one that returns the string when true instead of just true
14:06	hlship	and it was indirectly trying to load the Java class
14:07	hlship	so I'm not happy that the javac step puts dev-resources on the classpath
14:10	sdegutis	,[{()()}]
14:10	clojurebot	[{() ()}]
14:11	clgv	TimMc: haha :D
14:11	sdegutis	,#{[{() ()}]}
14:11	clojurebot	#{[{() ()}]}
14:11	sdegutis	:D
14:12	zanes	Are profilers like YourKit capable of determining which reference(s) might be hogging memory?
14:13	clgv	zanes: not that easily, but yourkit contains tools for analyzing that - but it is more than hit a button and get the code lines
14:14	zanes	clgv: I’m struggling to figure it out. Any specific pointers for where to look?
14:14	hlship	or trys to load namespace 'user
14:14	hlship	quit
14:14	clgv	zanes: in your program or the profiler?
14:15	zanes	Profiler.
14:15	zanes	I’m pretty sure I’m hanging on to the head of one of several infinite lazy sequences somewhere.
14:16	clgv	zanes: "start object allocation recording" and "advance object generration number" - they have some more infos in their online docs
14:18	sdegutis	How do I use the function that a macro is calling without using the macro itself?
14:18	clgv	sdegutis: what?
14:19	Bronsa	sdegutis: ... invoking the function?
14:19	sdegutis	The macro is defined like this: (defmacro foo [some args] (some-fn-call some args))
14:19	sdegutis	No lie.
14:19	clgv	sdegutis: just call the functio
14:19	sdegutis	Do you see?
14:19	clojurebot	Pardon?
14:19	sdegutis	It omits the `
14:19	clgv	but it probably just returns code ;)
14:19	sdegutis	There's no semi-quote.
14:19	clgv	sdegutis: what do you want to achieve?
14:19	Bronsa	sdegutis: so what? it means that some-fn-call returns the code for the macro
14:20	Bronsa	(defmacro x [] `(foo)) is the same as (defn bar [] `(foo)) (defmacro x [] (bar))
14:20	sdegutis	Bronsa: Right, so how do I call the code returned by calling (some-fn-call some args) myself?
14:20	Bronsa	eval
14:20	sdegutis	clgv: I am trying to avoid someone else's DSL since it does not fit my use-case.
14:20	sdegutis	Bronsa: That happens at runtime though, I want to have this happen at compile-time.
14:20	justin_smith	sdegutis: yeah, that sucks
14:20	clgv	as Bronsa said ;)
14:20	sdegutis	justin_smith: which part?
14:20	justin_smith	having to use someone's DSL
14:20	sdegutis	Ah.
14:21	Bronsa	sdegutis: then use a macro
14:21	sdegutis	Oh I know, I'll just write a macro will just call their fn dir-- yeah that.
14:21	clgv	huh? you literally just want to avoid the macro but you want exactly what it does?
14:21	sdegutis	clgv: I want its implementation, but not its interface.
14:22	sdegutis	clgv: Surely you can understand.
14:22	sdegutis	I really feel like I'm speaking Greek here or something.
14:22	clgv	sdegutis: define your own macro with different parameters and call their function apropriately
14:22	sdegutis	Right, that's the solution I ended up with.
14:22	Bronsa	sdegutis: you haven't expressed your problem clearly. Anyway you got your answer now
14:22	sdegutis	Thanks anyway for trying.
14:23	sdegutis	I'm writing an alternative DSL to compojure.core/GET and friends.
14:23	sdegutis	(For my own personal use -- so don't worry.)
14:25	sdegutis	It's turning into quite a difficult ordeal.
14:25	sdegutis	I suppose I can just try to omit '(GET ...) etc. instead.
14:25	{blake}	I've got a form created with hiccup and now I want to format the inputs and outputs. (Masks, dollar signs, percentage signs, etc.) Suggestions?
14:26	weavejester	sdegutis: Are you talking about calling compojure.core/compile-route ?
14:26	sdegutis	weavejester: Yes.
14:26	weavejester	sdegutis: You know it’s a public function?
14:27	sdegutis	weavejester: Yes, I'm calling it.
14:27	weavejester	sdegutis: Hm, so what’s the problem?
14:27	justin_smith	{blake}: ##(java.net.URLEncoder. "hello&world!%" "UTF-8")
14:27	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching ctor found for class java.net.URLEncoder
14:27	justin_smith	err
14:27	sdegutis	weavejester: The difficulty is in trying to create a new `body` that wraps the one given to my new function, and giving that to compile-route.
14:27	justin_smith	{blake}: ##(java.net.URLEncoder/encode "hello&world!%" "UTF-8")
14:27	lazybot	⇒ "hello%26world%21%25"
14:27	sdegutis	*to my new macro
14:28	justin_smith	{blake}: ##(java.net.URLEncoder/decode (java.net.URLEncoder/encode "hello&world!%" "UTF-8"))
14:28	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method: decode
14:28	{blake}	justin_smith: URLEncoder?
14:29	justin_smith	{blake}: yeah, it escapes things that aren't safe in a URL
14:29	justin_smith	may not be an exact match for what you want, I guess
14:29	weavejester	sdegutis: What do you have so far? I don’t really follow what you’re doing.
14:32	{blake}	justin_smith: Yeah, doesn't seem like it'd work. Thanks, though.
14:33	munderwo	Does anybody know how to kill nrepl-server processed in emacs?
14:33	sdegutis	weavejester: I'm trying to wrap the body of a (GET "/:foo" [foo] ...) call so that "..." is turned into "(do some more stuff ...)" but because compile-routes takes a seq for the `body` arg, I'm kind of lost on how to do this short of building up a list myself.
14:33	stuartsierra	,(java.net.URLDecoder/decode (java.net.URLEncoder/encode "hello&world!%" "UTF-8"))
14:33	sdegutis	Oh, I suppose I can just pass `(do some more stuff ~@body) to the body arg.
14:33	clojurebot	"hello&world!%"
14:34	sdegutis	munderwo: Why not use cider?
14:34	munderwo	well im using cider and nrepl for clojure script…
14:35	munderwo	And i’ve killed the cider buffer, but the nrepl-servers are still around. and I can get my browser because they still have the port bound.
14:35	munderwo	I understand that to connect cider with a browser for clojurescript you need nrepl?
14:35	weavejester	sdegutis: Well, compile-route is just a wrapper to around make-route, so you could always drop down to that if you want to deal with functions instead of unevaluated lists of code.
14:35	sdegutis	Thanks.
14:36	weavejester	sdegutis: But it sounds like you’re doing something like wrap-routes ?
14:36	weavejester	sdegutis: What’s the end goal?
14:37	sdegutis	weavejester: Part of the goal is to just bind some more variables to the body of each function.
14:38	weavejester	sdegutis: So… why not something like `(let [x 1] ~@body) ?
14:38	sdegutis	Thanks.
14:38	weavejester	sdegutis: Even though you have unevaluated code, it’s not hard to wrap that in a let.
14:39	sdegutis	weavejester: It's slightly more complicated than that, since I want to use the values from some of the bound variables that will be bound in the 'args' arg. But either way, thanks for your help.
14:42	whodidthis	can i clojure.string/trim in a prismatic's schema
14:42	justin_smith	{blake}: there is clojure.string/escape if you have a definitive list of what needs escaping https://clojuredocs.org/clojure.string/escape or some utilities from apache/spring http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1265282/recommended-method-for-escaping-html-in-java but the right thing is a proper encoder, because escape based techniques tend to be bad hacks...
14:44	{blake}	justin_smith: I'm not really looking for how to get a formatted string on the page. I'm looking for how to format the stuff to begin with. Like, given a mask of "$###,###" take "123456" and make "$123,456". I'm trying to avoid shoehorning a bunch of javascript in there.
14:45	{blake}	May be inevitable.
14:45	justin_smith	oh, I misunderstood what you meant by "formatting", sorry
14:46	{blake}	justin_smith: No problem. The escaping thing is bound to come up.
14:46	justin_smith	cl-format has a bunch of things along those lines baked in (the above is one of the printing formats for numbers)
14:47	justin_smith	https://clojuredocs.org/clojure.pprint/cl-format
14:47	{blake}	justin_smith: Cool. I'll have to do some translating (these formats come from Excel =8-0) but it shouldn't be too bad.
14:48	{blake}	I think the real issue is going to be formatting input. Maybe I'll see about cheating that.
14:48	justin_smith	looks like ~d does the , thing
14:48	justin_smith	oh user input...
14:48	{blake}	justin_smith: Heh. Yeah.
14:50	amalloy	{blake}: java.text has methods for formatting strings and numbers
14:50	amalloy	eg, https://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/text/NumberFormat.html
14:50	justin_smith	&(require 'clojure.pprint)
14:50	lazybot	⇒ nil
14:50	justin_smith	&(clojure.pprint/cl-format nil "~:d" 123456)
14:50	lazybot	⇒ "123,456"
14:50	{blake}	amalloy: Also cool, thanks.
14:51	amalloy	i don't think i would use cl-format; i'm sure it produces lovely output in a minimum of source-code characters in english, but java.text stuff is all nicely localized
14:51	amalloy	eg, the same formatstring will produce 123,456 here or 123.456 in countries that use a different decimal separator
14:52	amalloy	it also contains methods for parsing inputs with similar format specifiers
14:53	{blake}	amalloy: Any thoughts on the user-interface front?
14:53	amalloy	users lie
14:53	{blake}	Chronically, habitually, unconsciously, yes.
14:55	justin_smith	amalloy: so with that approach, you would set the locale to match the user making the request?
14:56	amalloy	justin_smith: i haven't paid much attention to what {blake}'s program actually is. localization is easier for a program that a user will actually run, but of course you can set the locale for webservers too
14:57	{blake}	It's pretty straightforward: A web page with data input fields on the left and results on the right.
14:57	amalloy	i'm just recommending it by default because it's something that java gets a lot more right than most languages, and it would be a shame to go back to the dark days of ascii-everywhere with cl-format
14:58	justin_smith	amalloy: fair point on that, yeah
14:59	TimMc	explosion in the keyboard factory
15:00	{blake}	No QWERTYs were injured, however.
15:00	technomancy	PSA: having a small issue restoring clojars DB that's resulting in duplicate group memberships.
15:01	technomancy	should not affect functionality but might look weird for a while
15:03	TimMc	Did Clojars explode?
15:03	justin_smith	TimMc: UHOH who'se gonna re-package all those bytes back into jars?
15:03	amalloy	it was caught in the qwertypocalypse
15:04	technomancy	TimMc: I accidentally deleted a whole table because korma syntax is weeeeird
15:04	TimMc	oy
15:04	honza	y u no yesql
15:04	technomancy	(korma.core/delete groups (values {:name "com.somesuch" :user "whoever"})) ; <- doesn't do what it looks like it does
15:04	technomancy	honza: didn't exist at the time =P
15:05	amalloy	technomancy: i guess clojars was using korma when you started maintaining it? i don't remember you being a fan of korma
15:06	technomancy	amalloy: yeah, it wasn't my choice
15:06	technomancy	amalloy: luckily I added an immutable event log that it wrote to redundantly
15:06	technomancy	and I was able to restore from that, though it's peppered with dupes
15:06	technomancy	the plan was to get off the DB and onto the event log, but that never happened
15:07	technomancy	but it's been very valuable for the restore
15:08	technomancy	bash-in-place data stores: terrible idea or worst idea?
15:09	mdrogalis	technomancy: Best terrible idea.
15:09	amalloy	technomancy: but these days we have fancypants BIP data stores like hbase, which will store several past revisions of an entry, unless you configure it not to!
15:10	mdrogalis	amalloy: BIP?
15:10	technomancy	amalloy: or like ... a single .clj file
15:10	sdegutis	How do you prevent a symbol from being fully resolved at such time as marco expansion?
15:10	llasram	sdegutis: do you mean like:
15:10	llasram	,`(this :vs ~'this)
15:10	clojurebot	(sandbox/this :vs this)
15:10	amalloy	mdrogalis: Bash In Place
15:11	sdegutis	I mean 'foo vs 'user/foo
15:11	mdrogalis	amalloy: Ah :)
15:11	justin_smith	sdegutis: rewrite the macro
15:11	sdegutis	I am trying.
15:11	mi6x3m	was 'positions' actually migrated to somewhere?
15:11	dc_	do agents in clojure have anything to do with agent-based design, over the network?
15:11	sdegutis	I type 'foo in the macro's definition, but at runtime its 'user/foo
15:11	llasram	sdegutis: see what clojurbot did with my example
15:11	justin_smith	sdegutis: that's what ` does
15:12	llasram	clojurebot even
15:12	amalloy	the expansion from foo to user/foo is not a macroexpansion feature
15:12	sdegutis	Oh.
15:12	dc_	in other words, whats the best way in clojure to send a command over the network to have it executed by an agent
15:12	sdegutis	Taht worked.
15:12	amalloy	dc_: i don't think they're related, no
15:12	sdegutis	llasram: You win.
15:12	sdegutis	amalloy: What would you call it?
15:12	justin_smith	dc_: well, it can be misleading, agents hold values and you pass them functions
15:13	amalloy	sdegutis: syntax-quote does it
15:13	amalloy	as you can tell from llasram demonstrating it without writing a macro
15:13	justin_smith	dc_: usually agant-based design assumes a function, that you pass a value
15:13	sdegutis	amalloy: Oh. Thanks gentleman/scholar.
15:13	dc_	i've got a dependancy that forces me to use AoT compilation and makes it hard to use the repl. i'd rather have that dependency in a separate program that i can easily communicate with and possibly have multiple processes running it. is there an established way to do this inclojure?
15:13	llasram	dc_: What's the dep requiring AOT?
15:14	dc_	amalloy justin_smith: cool, so i may be able to use agents to accomplish this in some way
15:14	dc_	llasram: aparapi-matrix
15:14	justin_smith	dc_: you can launch an nrepl server from inside an aot'd program
15:14	amalloy	justin_smith: i think dc_ has a completely different idea of what agent-based design means from yours
15:15	justin_smith	amalloy: fair enough!
15:15	amalloy	i don't really know what either of you means, though, so who knows
15:15	justin_smith	hah
15:15	dc_	llasram: aparapi-matrix lets you run matrix multiplication and a few other algorithms on the GPU, using aparapi and OpenCL. there's a few other algorithms i want to encode on the GPU myself, but i don't really want the dependancy in my main program
15:15	llasram	huh
15:15	kungi	I am trying to use the component workflow while developing a web app in clojure and constructed the following minimal example. When I change the content of my only get handler and (reset) in the repl I still get tho old results. Can someone please have a look at my example and tell me where I got it wrong (https://github.com/Kungi/example-component-ring)
15:15	llasram	ok
15:15	justin_smith	dc_: oh, yeah, don't run a repl from the GPU, that would be silly
15:16	dc_	justin_smith: ahh, so one program can connect to others via nrepl and pass code as data?
15:16	justin_smith	dc_: that's what nrepl is for, yeah
15:16	justin_smith	it's a socket based repl server
15:16	dc_	justin_smith: so far i've only used it as a repl :)
15:16	justin_smith	it's what lein repl uses
15:17	justin_smith	dc_: little did you know lein was launching both a client and a server
15:17	justin_smith	dc_: sometimes it is useful to run a compiled project, and then host an nrepl server inside it
15:17	bobbywilson0	What is the trick for getting a play-clj project to run with updates in cider? I keep getting "IllegalStateException Only one OpenAL context may be instantiated at any one time." when I try to eval (-main) again.
15:17	dc_	justin_smith: i realized i could connect to it over the network, but i guess i just didn't think about it like that
15:17	justin_smith	dc_: inside out from the usual launch-your-code-from-a-repl
15:18	dc_	justin_smith: ok that's awesome! that makes interacting with other programs very easy
15:18	justin_smith	dc_: as long as you fully trust them with all the capabilities of your own process, yes
15:18	dc_	basically i just need a clojure wrapper across a library or interfacing with an external program, then i can interact with it across the network.
15:18	dc_	ahh i see what you're saying
15:19	weavejester	kungi: You have a fair bit of odd code in your example project, like macros that create records. You’re also writing a lot of your own code when there are libraries that give you things like Jetty components and user REPL functions.
15:19	dc_	justin_smith: so what should i look into to restrict the nrepl interface, so that only approved code can run?
15:19	justin_smith	dc_: I am not totally sure what you are doing, but there are also various inter-process queue setups
15:20	justin_smith	dc_: because it is easier to read from a queue, and use that value to execute a task, rather than try to run a sandboxed interpreter
15:20	justin_smith	rabbitmq, hornetmq etc.
15:20	justin_smith	*hornetq
15:20	weavejester	kungi: I can’t see anything that would cause the error, but it’s very complex for what it does.
15:20	dc_	justin_smith: i'm working on a bioinformatics algorithms class on coursera. i want to accelerate some of the low-level algorithms with the GPU, but i don't really want to introduce certain dependencies to my main project.
15:21	justin_smith	dc_: what about doing it caveman style and launching its vm via ProcessBuilder, and then feeding it input via (.write (.getInputStream proc) bytes)
15:22	justin_smith	maybe not your best option actually
15:22	dc_	justin_smith: ah ok. that makes sense. that's how i would have solved the problem in ruby. what i'm worried about now, is that implementing this will result in too much overhead passing data across the network, making it just as slow as it would be without using the GPU
15:22	kungi	weavejester: let me try to tidy it up a bit. I ripped this out of production code where the problem occurs. I did google a bit and did not find a library for a jetty component?
15:23	weavejester	kungi: https://github.com/weavejester/ring-jetty-component
15:23	dc_	justin_smith: i wasn't aware of that option, i'll have to look into ProcessBuilder
15:23	kungi	O.o how have I missed this?
15:23	justin_smith	dc_: then maybe that ProcessBuilder option is usable then.
15:23	weavejester	kungi: Also: https://github.com/weavejester/reloaded.repl
15:23	amalloy	dc_: i have trouble believing you can move data across even the localhost network interface fast enough to make using the gpu profitable
15:24	weavejester	kungi: I’ve been writing a fair few components recently, because I’ve been working on an opinionated template for component-based web apps. https://github.com/weavejester/duct
15:24	zanes	Is it possible to get object allocation profiling data from YourKit when in attach mode?
15:25	justin_smith	amalloy: what about things like unix domain sockets or stdio?
15:25	weavejester	kungi: Rather than use a macro to create a record, I use a function with reify, which I think works a little better
15:26	dc_	amalloy: that's what i was worried about. i'll probably keep the gpu project separate then. i'm looking at this bioinformatics algorithms paper by Tuan Tu Tran, where he uses GPU acceleration on all kinds of algorithms: hamming-distance, motifs and string neighborhood.
15:26	amalloy	justin_smith: it's still a lot of syscalls and buffer copying. but it's not really my area of expertise, even though i like to sound informed. maybe it really will be faster
15:26	weavejester	kungi: So I have a function that takes in a config map and spits out a routing function: https://github.com/weavejester/duct/blob/master/lein-template/resources/leiningen/new/duct/example.clj#L8
15:26	weavejester	kungi: And then I transform this into an endpoint using a function: https://github.com/weavejester/duct/blob/master/duct/src/duct/component/endpoint.clj
15:26	justin_smith	amalloy: if it's a truly parallelizable algo, it shouldn't be too dependent on the rate of input to the process anyway
15:27	weavejester	kungi: Which I now realize doesn’t use reify as I said before. I think that was an earlier version I was thinking on.
15:27	dc_	justin_smith amalloy: i'm definitely in way over my head with this stuff, but the bioinformatics class has been a lot of fun so far. i just want to take some of these algorithms and see how ridiculously fast i can implement them.
15:28	kungi	weavejester wow thanks for the input! I will start refactoring right away :-)
15:28	justin_smith	dc_: it's pretty straightforward to just feed your data as bytes to a Process instance created via ProcessBuilder. It's not super flexible, because unlike with a network based input you can't send / receive data with arbitrary programs - you own its input and output within your own process
15:28	dc_	justin_smith amalloy: hamming-distance can be pretty much done in constant time already, but i'm pretty sure it can be accelerated across an array of bytes, so that it doesn't have to process one at a time.
15:30	TimMc	(defmarco polo)
15:30	justin_smith	TimMc: I almost went there but backed off
15:30	TimMc	Someone needed to say it.
15:30	dc_	network as a bus, mannn... netowork as a bus. it's coming
15:31	justin_smith	well, the network thing is much slower
15:31	justin_smith	but unix domain sockets are a compromise
15:31	justin_smith	they are faster, but localhost only
15:32	dc_	probably still be slow to read/write from network interfaces, regardless of how fast they are
15:32	justin_smith	but sadly java can't use them without jni :(
15:32	justin_smith	dc_: unix domain sockets are not network interfaces
15:32	justin_smith	they are interfaces for fast local IO between multiple programs
15:36	annelies	I started working on clawk today.
15:36	sdegutis	What's that?
15:36	justin_smith	sweet
15:36	arrdem	w00t
15:36	sdegutis	https://github.com/daveray/clawk ?
15:36	annelies	shitwtf it already exists dammit
15:36	annelies	with the same name
15:36	annelies	:V
15:36	sdegutis	annelies: what is your clawk?
15:36	arrdem	:C
15:37	dc___	oh no, now i haz three underscores. i really need to configure my nick
15:37	justin_smith	annelies: great minds think alike I guess - but I bet if you read the code you find like 50 ways to improve it
15:37	sdegutis	dc___: LLOL
15:37	annelies	justin_smith: yeah but I'll have to think up a different name :P
15:38	annelies	awkjure
15:38	annelies	I disabled that moronic lein restriction anyway.
15:38	sdegutis	awkjward
15:38	dc___	i've got a good irssi config, but i don't like that i have to use it from within terminal. makes it hard to switch back in forth. though i really do prefer irssi
15:38	justin_smith	sdegutis: I love that that word describes itself
15:38	dc___	lol
15:39	sdegutis	justin_smith: well awkjward isn't a word thus it describes nothing
15:39	sdegutis	but it describes nothing with exquisite accuracy and superb elegance
15:39	annelies	sdegutis: something like (defawk weather pattern rule, pattern rule, pattern rule) where pattern can be anything that implements Pattern protocol and rule can be anything that returns a sequence
15:39	justin_smith	dc___: registering your nick is not super hard to do, and /msg nickserv ghost ... works nicely once you've done that
15:39	annelies	I want to implement Pattern for regex and boolean to start with
15:39	justin_smith	sdegutis: it describes trying to parse or pronounce itself
15:40	annelies	and :begin and :end are special like in AWK
15:40	annelies	But I have to think of how to have it keep state.
15:40	annelies	AWK without state isn't _very_ useful.
15:41	sdegutis	justin_smith: :)
15:41	sdegutis	"awkuhjuhword"
15:41	sdegutis	I am writing macros.
15:41	sdegutis	In real life.
15:41	annelies	,(shuffle "clojure awk")
15:41	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.util.Collection>
15:41	annelies	wat
15:42	dysfun	is there any library that deals with sequences of functions? i.e. doing clever function things at runtime?
15:42	annelies	,(apply str (shuffle (seq "clojure awk")))
15:42	clojurebot	" cljarouekw"
15:42	annelies	That will be the name of my library.
15:42	TimMc	Like... composing them?
15:42	TimMc	&(format "lib-%04d" (rand-int 1e4))
15:42	lazybot	⇒ "lib-2945"
15:42	justin_smith	dysfun: lots, which kinds of clever things?
15:42	TimMc	annelies: ^ a suggestion from gfredericks
15:43	llasram	Probably monads
15:43	dysfun	composing them conditionally, perhaps
15:43	annelies	TimMc: hm?
15:43	dysfun	i can see how i could have some fun with lazy-seq
15:43	TimMc	annelies: ##(format "lib-%04d" (rand-int 1e4))
15:43	lazybot	⇒ "lib-7208"
15:44	TimMc	There's another one.
15:44	TimMc	I'm just giving him credit.
15:44	annelies	oohh :P
15:44	annelies	nice
15:45	justin_smith	,(str "cl" (java.util.UUID/randomUUID) "jure")
15:45	clojurebot	"cl0d50d7ba-1752-4e09-b6d5-5369a221a596jure"
15:45	llasram	(inc justin_smith)
15:45	lazybot	⇒ 132
15:45	TimMc	(inc justin_smith)
15:45	lazybot	⇒ 133
15:45	TimMc	That one even starts with "cl0".
15:46	justin_smith	1 in 16 chance, so I basically just killed the orc in one hit
15:46	arrdem	Grimoire now officially moved to conj.io. No URL rewriting required, 301 redirect in place.
15:47	not_arrdem	,(let [characters (->> (range 48 58) (concat (range 65 89)) (concat (range 97 123)))] (defn generate-id [] (->> #(rand-nth characters) repeatedly (take 4) (map char) (apply str))))
15:47	clojurebot	#'sandbox/generate-id
15:47	not_arrdem	,(generate-id)
15:47	clojurebot	"jEz4"
15:47	annelies	debugging concurrent code is so much fun
15:47	mavbozo	org.clojure/tools.awk ?
15:47	arrdem	mavbozo: org.clojure is by invite only :P
15:48	mavbozo	community.clojure/tools.awk ?
15:48	arrdem	huh. wonder if anyone is using that group..
15:48	arrdem	nope
15:49	TimMc	"community" is long
15:49	TimMc	Let's abbreviate it "com".
15:49	amalloy	justin_smith: words that describe themselves: "homological". today's fun trivia fact
15:50	TimMc	Is homological homological?
15:50	justin_smith	amalloy: thanks! I've wanted that word for a while.
15:50	dysfun	okay, the sequences of functions thing, the reason was i wanted to figure out how i could better model this function. the handlers take a ring request map and return a 2-tuple
15:51	dysfun	https://www.refheap.com/bea95b312aef4fbf0a190a037
15:51	justin_smith	TimMc: the editor edits all texts by people who do not edit their own texts, does he edit his own text?
15:51	arrdem	justin_smith: yes
15:52	weavejester	dysfun: What’s that meant to be doing?
15:52	justin_smith	arrdem: congrats, solved Russel's Paradox, claim your prize
15:52	arrdem	owl allow it
15:52	dysfun	i'm experimenting with abstracting web workflows on a RESTful-ish website
15:53	TimMc	justin_smith: Yes.
15:53	kungi	weavejester: Thank you! I was able to make my code much easier. :-) https://github.com/Kungi/example-component-ring
15:53	mavbozo	TimMc: clojure.com domain name is owned by cognitect, so we go back to community.clojure group
15:53	TimMc	You didn't say "and only".
15:53	justin_smith	oh, crap
15:53	justin_smith	:)
15:53	dysfun	in this case, my thesis is that on most sites, POST actions basically are a simple composition of logic that includes validation, canonicalisation, storage, testing and template/response rendering
15:53	TimMc	I'm also not clear on whether this editor has any of his own texts to edit.
15:53	justin_smith	TimMc: natural language is hard
15:54	dysfun	and i'm experimenting with making functins take ring request maps to try and ease composition
15:54	dysfun	i was inspired by your routes function, actually, weavejester
15:54	weavejester	kungi: No problem.
15:56	weavejester	dysfun: So… The “handlers” in the example return either [:success] [:failure] or [:request another-request] ?
15:56	justin_smith	amalloy: TimMc: arrdem: apropos http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grelling%E2%80%93Nelson_paradox
15:56	TimMc	justin_smith: In the case of homological there are at least two possible consistent states.
15:56	dysfun	weavejester: yes. it looks like a state monad if you squint a bit
15:57	TimMc	yeah
15:57	weavejester	dysfun: What’s the purpose of returning a request? And what’s “i”?
15:58	justin_smith	of course, in all this talk of homological, and heterological, we are forgetting to include the very important members of our community, the bilogical, the alogical, and translogical
15:58	TimMc	weavejester: Philosophers have been asking that last question since time immemorial.
15:59	weavejester	TimMc: What’s the command to downvote again…? :P
15:59	annelies	TimMc: POSIX has a utility to find the answer.
15:59	dysfun	the list of handlers going in is of function from request-map to instruction-tuple. :success and :failure cause the the instruction tuple to be returned as-is (that 'i' is a typo, should be 'ret') and :request continues down the chain, but with a modified request map
15:59	dysfun	so it provides a means of mutating the request map for things further down the chain
16:01	weavejester	dysfun: Hm, okay. So your handler function can either modify the request or return a response.
16:01	dysfun	yes
16:01	llasram	dysfun: You can accomplish the same result with the middleware pattern
16:01	amalloy	TimMc: good; i had concluded the same thing: that homological could consistently be homological or not
16:02	llasram	dysfun: Each middleware function can either handle the request itself or pass (a potentially modified request) on to the next function in the chain
16:02	justin_smith	dysfun: with what you say about composition of logic to make a POST route, it sounds like you are getting close to the idea of what liberator tries to do
16:03	dysfun	i had a look at liberator way back when but i wasn't terribly impressed
16:03	dysfun	i'll take another look
16:03	justin_smith	dysfun: on a more theoretical level, I could imagine an alternate version of a middleware stack, where each step sees not just the next middleware in the cahin, but a data structure containing all the next steps, and has the option to modify, wrap, or destructure arbitrary elements in the chain. Down that road likely lies complete madness though.
16:04	justin_smith	*s/cahin/chain
16:04	dysfun	i went mad years ago, you can't scare me.
16:05	arrdem	(inc dysfun)
16:05	lazybot	⇒ 2
16:05	arrdem	someone pass the tea...
16:05	llasram	No tea here. Just ravens and writing desks
16:05	arrdem	but are there burritos in the writing desk?
16:05	dysfun	llasram: it seems a bit stack-messy to go for the middleware pattern
16:06	{blake}	We all go a little mad sometimes.
16:06	mavbozo	dysfun: your idea just looks like pedestal-service's service-routing and interceptors https://github.com/pedestal/pedestal/blob/master/guides/documentation/service-routing.md
16:07	dysfun	mavbozo: i shall read, thanks
16:10	TimMc	weavejester: (dec TimMc) :-)
16:11	mavbozo	justin_smith: "each step sees not just the next middleware in the cahin, but a data structure containing all the next steps" is one of pedestal-service interceptors idea
16:11	TimMc	I almost certainly deserve it at any given time for some reason.
16:11	weavejester	TimMc: I was kidding :)
16:11	justin_smith	mavbozo: I had no idea they were so mad!
16:11	ffwacom	is it a Bad Idea to learn clojure without knowing java?
16:12	justin_smith	ffwacom: clojure is a great way to use the java apis
16:12	dysfun	ffwacom: definitely not!
16:12	justin_smith	and you don't need to know java itself for that
16:12	ffwacom	ok cool
16:12	justin_smith	ffwacom: I only learned java recently, as a long time clojure user. I prefer using java libs from clojure.
16:12	{blake}	ffwacom: Nope, but it helps not to be intimidated by Java when learning Clojure.
16:13	ffwacom	{blake}: would a familiarity with java help dealing with the java libs?
16:13	justin_smith	ffwacom: {blake}: yeah - don't need to learn java, but should definitely learn to read javadoc and apply it to clojure interop
16:14	ffwacom	ok cool
16:14	ffwacom	any recommended tutorials and books to start with?
16:14	mavbozo	justin_smith: see the madness for yourself https://github.com/pedestal/pedestal/blob/master/guides/documentation/service-interceptors.md
16:14	justin_smith	ffwacom: javadoc search pane is a cool addon for firefox / chrome that makes javadoc easier to use
16:15	kiwitobes	Anyone here using Intellij / Cursive? I like LightTable but I don't think people are really working on it any more
16:15	justin_smith	ffwacom: then, use the interop api as described at http://clojure.org/java_interop to access those apis
16:15	{blake}	ffwacom: Honestly, Java seems really well documented. I haven't used in a decade or so prior to picking up Clojure.
16:16	justin_smith	ffwacom: I think, rather than needing a tutorial, you can start with the examples on that clojure.org page, and then try applying it to some simple java apis
16:16	{blake}	ffwacom: I just wrote an app that relied heavily on a Java library I wasn't even aware prior to starting the app. It was fine. No troubles just looking at the doc and going "OK, so, in Clojure..."
16:17	justin_smith	ffwacom: simple ones to play with inclojure java.io.File, java.lang.String, java.net.URI
16:17	ffwacom	nice, that's good news
16:17	{blake}	ffwacom: Yeah, as someone who never really dug Java, I find Clojure makes it a lot more interesting.
16:18	justin_smith	,(.getCanonicalPath (java.io.File. "."))
16:18	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
16:18	justin_smith	:P
16:18	justin_smith	that was supposed to be a simple example, heh
16:18	ffwacom	haha no worries
16:19	ffwacom	,(+ 1 1)
16:19	clojurebot	2
16:19	justin_smith	another convenient thing, for figuring out java objects quickly, is bean
16:19	ffwacom	:)
16:19	justin_smith	,(bean (java.io.File. "."))
16:19	clojurebot	#<AccessControlException java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.lang.RuntimePermission getFileSystemAttributes)>
16:19	justin_smith	bleh
16:20	justin_smith	anyway, if you run that locally, you get a nice hash map with a bunch of info reflecting the data the object can provide via getter methods
16:20	tuft	,(bean (java.util.HashMap.))
16:20	clojurebot	{:empty true, :class java.util.HashMap}
16:20	ffwacom	oh nice, good to know
16:20	justin_smith	it's not going to be complete mind you
16:20	technomancy	running group de-dupe
16:20	technomancy	for clojars
16:20	justin_smith	but sometimes it gives an interesting lead
16:21	mavbozo	(inc justin_smith)
16:21	lazybot	⇒ 134
16:22	{blake}	Reminds me, I owe a couple incs.
16:22	{blake}	(inc justin_smith)
16:22	lazybot	⇒ 135
16:22	{blake}	(inc amalloy)
16:22	lazybot	⇒ 194
16:22	mdrogalis	Pretty sure I deserve a dec for that one.
16:23	{blake}	lol
16:23	TimMc	(identity mdrogalis)
16:23	lazybot	mdrogalis has karma 7.
16:23	{blake}	Do I owe you? 'cause, yeah, that cancels it out.
16:23	mdrogalis	P much
16:23	TimMc	Hah, how long have we had that?
16:24	technomancy	raaaaaacket
16:25	justin_smith	ocaml is pretty nice too - it makes small, quick running, quick compiling binaries
16:25	technomancy	if you're going to have clojure hackers modifiying them, racket is a lot quicker to pick up
16:25	technomancy	but you can't go wrong with either one
16:25	justin_smith	that's very true
16:26	mdrogalis	technomancy: You sure can go wrong. Just look at that GitHub syntax highlighting! Strike against Racket.
16:26	technomancy	._.
16:26	sdegutis	Can you put something like (symbol (str "clojure.string/" "lower-case"))) (not quoted) inside a Clojure macro and trust it'll evaluate as you intend?
16:26	arrdem	._.
16:26	technomancy	mdrogalis: another couple weeks and clojure hackers will be numb to it though
16:27	technomancy	either that or there'll be a mass github exodous
16:27	akkad	technomancy: yeah the racket-clojure and rackjure projects come close.
16:27	mdrogalis	Surely it can't be on purpose, right?
16:27	technomancy	akkad: rackjure is great, but raw racket is very passable too
16:28	technomancy	especially for quick throwaway scripts
16:29	akkad	k
16:29	sdegutis	Does Racket have a way to glue the interpreter into the script?
16:30	technomancy	yeah; you can have it spit out standalone executables
16:30	gfredericks	anybody know why I would have trouble with `lein deploy clojars` when my lib is on a snapshot but not when it's on a release?
16:30	aperiodic	sdegutis: why would you do that instead of 'clojure.string/lower-case?
16:30	technomancy	gfredericks: that might be me; I'm performing intensive DB surgery and sqlite sucks at concurrency
16:30	sdegutis	That is one of my favorite features of Lua is that there's a library that includes a Lua interpreter which loads the script attached to the end of its own binary and runs it.
16:31	technomancy	gfredericks: can you hold off like 10m
16:31	sdegutis	aperiodic: I don't have the string at compile-time, I generate it at macro-expansion time based on macro args.
16:31	technomancy	sdegutis: `raco exe` -> ~700kb standalone thingy
16:31	sdegutis	http://lua-users.org/lists/lua-l/2004-08/msg00489.html
16:31	gfredericks	technomancy: I guess that explains timeouts in particular; I just gave up and did a full release which worked fine
16:31	technomancy	gfredericks: you must have gotten lucky =)
16:32	technomancy	I should probably switch off uploads for a bit
16:32	technomancy	I would just like to point out that this is a great reason we should have a paid clojars admin
16:32	justin_smith	sdegutis: one of my favorite things about ocaml is that it compiles to a very small executable that only includes those parts of the lang you use in your code; and the compiler runs fast too
16:33	sdegutis	That's cool.
16:33	technomancy	justin_smith: welllll
16:33	justin_smith	?
16:33	technomancy	justin_smith: the tree-shaking works to varying degrees
16:33	technomancy	justin_smith: it doesn't work with jane street core
16:33	sdegutis	I like that about Google Clojure Library too, in theory.
16:33	justin_smith	technomancy: I've had good luck, but then I have never used jane street
16:33	technomancy	it's not very fine-grained, is all
16:33	sdegutis	Er sorry, Google Clojure Compiler.
16:33	technomancy	justin_smith: yeah... grenchman is 10m =\
16:33	technomancy	supposedly they're working on that though
16:34	justin_smith	technomancy: right, big monolithic libs are going to be an issue
16:34	arrdem	technomancy: the problem is "we" :c I'd be happy to gittip or whatever fund clojars
16:34	justin_smith	technomancy: its still only including the libs you use! it's just that one lib is really big :P
16:34	technomancy	hehe
16:34	TimMc	sdegutis: Closure :-)
16:34	justin_smith	(dec frameworks)
16:34	lazybot	⇒ -1
16:34	technomancy	arrdem: xeqi tried to start a campaign targeting big corps, but with limited success. maybe something more grassroots would work better
16:34	aperiodic	sdegutis: this sounds crazy. if you don't want to let the user refer to the function directly, why not have, say, a map from expected macro args to the symbol to use when given that arg?
16:35	TimMc	technomancy: I work at a company that uses Clojure. xeqi should poke me.
16:35	sdegutis	aperiodic: I originally had {"GET" 'compojure.core/GET "POST" 'compojure.core/POST}.
16:35	TimMc	(I have no idea if it would be a fruitful effort, but it's worth a shot...)
16:35	sdegutis	aperiodic: I was hoping to remove the redundancy by dynamically generating that symbol instead of using a lookup table.
16:36	sdegutis	And that's why I'm here! :)
16:36	technomancy	for background, this restore is happening because I was asked to remove someone from a group and due to a combination of sloppy argument handling and infamiliarity with korma, I ended up removing EVERYONE from EVERY group
16:36	technomancy	which wouldn't have happened if clojars were under active development
16:36	sdegutis	Also because I'm super sleepy and my little daughter vomited on a lot of us last night and this morning so we lost some sleep and it's easy to get side-tracked.
16:36	technomancy	so next time someone asks me to perform manual DB ops, I'm just going to tell them to upgrade to clojars pro =)
16:36	arrdem	lol
16:36	arrdem	https://gratipay.com/on/github/xeqi/
16:36	arrdem	huh
16:36	sdegutis	But mainly because I'm trying to create a symbol.
16:37	sdegutis	Oh wait! I think this is the wrong way to build a namespaced symbol.
16:37	sdegutis	(doc symbol)
16:37	clojurebot	"([name] [ns name]); Returns a Symbol with the given namespace and name."
16:38	justin_smith	technomancy: haha - you should just list consulting rates: remove someone from a group, $5, add someone $10, remove a jar your posted by mistake $100, fix something in the db for you $500
16:38	sdegutis	technomancy: LLOL (re: the SQL op you ended up with)
16:38	arrdem	I've been fortunate that my $3/wk is enough to keep Grimoire online would be happy to throw money at clojars to keep things alove
16:38	sdegutis	oh wait no, not LLOL, just LOL
16:38	arrdem	*alive
16:39	sdegutis	aloof?
16:39	weavejester	technomancy: What about adding on a “donate” page to Clojars?
16:39	TimMc	There really should be corporate users funding clojars.
16:40	technomancy	weavejester: well, I'm not in a position to accept monies in return for maintenance personally, but I think it would be wise for xeqi
16:40	weavejester	Well, that’s kinda what I mean
16:40	weavejester	If there’s a donate page on Clojars
16:40	weavejester	And we give people the option to make their donations public
16:40	justin_smith	technomancy: you know how people always have issues with setting up private maven repos for closed source / internal stuff? secure private repo as a service (spraas)
16:40	weavejester	Then that would give Clojure-orientated companies an incentive to donate.
16:41	technomancy	there's lots of ways it could go, yeah. I think it was wise to start by approaching high-profile clojure-using companies first because it's less messy than a grassroots approach.
16:41	technomancy	not that they're mutually-exclusive
16:42	weavejester	If I’m giving, say, $100 a month to Clojars and I was listed as the only donator, then larger companies like Cognitect might say, “why aren’t we listed”?
16:42	technomancy	justin_smith: yeah... liability is a big one with that though
16:42	weavejester	So kinda a shaming approach :)
16:42	technomancy	weavejester: sounds good to me =)
16:42	technomancy	but these kinds of subjects can be sensitive
16:43	technomancy	bringing in money when you're used to it being a big hippie love-fest etc =)
16:43	arrdem	eh servers and time aren't free
16:43	weavejester	technomancy: Something like the EFF page maybe: https://www.eff.org/thanks
16:44	technomancy	TBH it's astonishing it's been as problem-free as it has
16:45	talios	justin_smith - how hard is it to unzip and run nexus? I don't see why people have a hard time with that..
16:45	technomancy	talios: it's more keeping a server running in general
16:45	weavejester	Though I guess the hard part might be managing taxes and so forth.
16:45	talios	true
16:45	technomancy	applying security patches, keeping user accounts up to date
16:46	arrdem	emergency contracting on accidental pushes :P
16:46	weavejester	Ideally we’d have a company responsible for managing Clojars
16:47	weavejester	Maybe non-profit.
16:47	technomancy	somebody tell Marc Andressen
16:47	technomancy	(please don't actually do that)
16:48	technomancy	he invested in npm, inc
16:48	llasram	Maybe some sort of non-profit Clojure foundation
16:48	arrdem	It'd be nice if we did have a single entity wrapping the various clojure infrastructure projects
16:48	sdegutis	brb googling "Unsupported binding form: clojure.lang.LazySeq@a97d5d6c"
16:48	weavejester	xeqi has a consulting company, so donations could presumably be routed through that initially.
16:49	arrdem	but then that'll introduce a boatload of now absent politics..
16:49	technomancy	arrdem: exactly
16:49	weavejester	I think a Clojure foundation is a little too broad.
16:50	technomancy	in general being distributed is great; fewer points of failure.
16:50	justin_smith	sdegutis: that means you are using the string representation of a lazy seq where a symbol or destructure is expected, I think
16:50	justin_smith	sdegutis: translation: your macro is too clever
16:50	technomancy	maybe someone brilliant will come up with a distributed clojars replacement and we won't have a spof
16:50	sdegutis	Phew! The only other person Google claims has encountered the error I'm seeing in writing my macro is the guy who wrote Mastering Clojure Macros.
16:51	arrdem	clojure over gittorent..
16:51	nullptr	sdegutis: achievement unlocked!
16:51	sdegutis	(ninc nullptr)
16:51	weavejester	sdegutis: The error says you’re trying to bind something to a seq, which won’t work.
16:51	technomancy	arrdem: it's hard for me to imagine it working without a block chain; you need consensus for how to apply updates
16:52	weavejester	sdegutis: Try using macroexpand to see what the code looks like you’re generating.
16:52	justin_smith	weavejester: ahh, of course. Not the string rep, just putting a seq rather than vector on the lhs
16:52	sdegutis	Good idea. I was only using (macroexpand) to test, but I should be using it to print it out too.
16:52	llasram	,(eval `(let [~(seq ['a]) [1]] a))
16:52	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.Exception: Unsupported binding form: (a), compiling:(NO_SOURCE_FILE:0:0)>
16:52	weavejester	justin_smith: Right
16:52	arrdem	technomancy: I think you could get surprisingly far by just distributing artifacts over bittorent as-is with signatures
16:53	arrdem	technomancy: that just leaves the artifact discovery problem open
16:53	sdegutis	Also, how dumb of an idea is it to assert that (= (macroexpand '(my macro)) (macroexpand '(someone elses macro)))
16:53	technomancy	arrdem: well, how the heck else do you get decentralized consensus on a series of events
16:53	weavejester	technomancy: The latest version is controlled by the author of the app. There’s no double-spending problem to be solved because if I release 1.0.2 then by definition it’s later than 1.0.1.
16:54	justin_smith	sdegutis: false positives because ##(= '(1) [1]) but as we have seen, the former doesn't work in a destructure
16:54	lazybot	⇒ true
16:54	arrdem	technomancy: I'm with weavejester I don't think this is really a distributed problem at all. Really this is a global, signed, write-once datastore.
16:54	sdegutis	Oooooh.
16:55	sdegutis	That explains everything maybe!
16:55	justin_smith	sdegutis: like a more skeptical Archimedes
16:55	weavejester	arrdem: Yeah. You can write a new version out to the datastore, or write a deprecation/retraction notice for that version.
16:56	technomancy	arrdem: what about two users attempting to claim a new group-id?
16:56	justin_smith	technomancy: race condition, first one there wins
16:56	weavejester	technomancy: That’s a good point :)
16:56	weavejester	justin_smith: Distributed race conditions = double spending problem
16:56	justin_smith	right
16:56	sdegutis	Found it I think? https://gist.github.com/trptcolin/418759
16:56	hyPiRion	justin_smith: what happens if I somehow manage to get org.clojure first?
16:56	arrdem	weavejester beat me to it :P
16:56	arrdem	hyPiRion: GG no re
16:57	justin_smith	weavejester: I was just thinking about how literally that was a data race (they are racing for that identifier)
16:57	technomancy	anyway, there are jvm blockchain implementations, right?
16:57	technomancy	someone do this plz
16:57	weavejester	Yeah, like BitcoinJ
16:57	weavejester	However
16:57	arrdem	cljcoin
16:57	sdegutis	So, (vec) saved the day.
16:57	arrdem	GUYS WE CAN USE DOGECOIN
16:57	weavejester	Maven isn’t really blockchain friendly :)
16:57	sdegutis	Oops I'm on the wrong channel.
16:57	OceanBlues	hi all
16:57	justin_smith	arrdem: CLOJECOIN
16:57	sdegutis	Oh wait no this is right.
16:58	weavejester	Sometime we really have to move away from Maven. Their versioning makes me angry.
16:58	arrdem	kludgecoin...
16:58	gfredericks	arrdem: technomancy: so currently if somebody is obviously group-id squatting that's fixable
16:58	hyPiRion	OceanBlues: hello there
16:58	weavejester	It’s just. so. bad.
16:58	technomancy	gfredericks: FSVO obvious
16:58	OceanBlues	someone know were can I find clarix, it's not into clojars
16:58	technomancy	gfredericks: it requires a judgement call, which means centralized authority
16:59	llasram	weavejester: IMHO everything else is slightly worse, but obviously YMMV
16:59	weavejester	technomancy: If I was going to email xeqi regarding Clojars, who do you think I should CC?
16:59	ffwacom	are all clojure types java types?
16:59	technomancy	weavejester: ato@meshy.org and myself, I guess
16:59	gfredericks	technomancy: I know, I'm pointing out that once you decentralize people could squat arbitrarily
16:59	technomancy	we are the current triumvirate
16:59	weavejester	llasram: I haven’t seen versioning quite as crazy as Maven’s.
16:59	gfredericks	would I guess would be a sort of DOS on the system
16:59	technomancy	gfredericks: /me nods
16:59	pandeiro	what's the smart way to check if an element exists in a vector by identity?
16:59	sdegutis	brb gonna go roast some garlic and spread it on bread
16:59	talios	weavejester - you've not seen Java's new versioning scheme then yet have you?
17:00	arrdem	weavejester: technomancy: gfredericks: we don't need a new coin.. namecoin exists
17:00	{blake}	ffwacom: No.
17:00	justin_smith	OceanBlues: do you know where to get the jar?
17:00	ffwacom	{blake}: cheers
17:00	weavejester	talios: I’d be impressed if it was worse.
17:00	weavejester	talios: How bad is it?
17:00	OceanBlues	no, I don't justin_smith
17:00	llasram	pandeiro: you mean like? (some (partial identical? x) v)
17:00	justin_smith	OceanBlues: if so, there is a way to put it into your local cache via lein
17:01	justin_smith	OceanBlues: so first step, is to find some source of that lib then
17:01	OceanBlues	I'm trying to get via lein
17:01	gfredericks	arrdem: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/3644/namecoin-is-there-any-rationale-behind-the-apparently-foolish-choice-of-havin
17:01	talios	weavejester - http://openjdk.java.net/jeps/223 - major.minor.security
17:01	pandeiro	llasram: yeah that works
17:01	llasram	weavejester: Yeah, maybe specifically the versioning. But the way the overall package-management system works, I do prefer Maven
17:01	llasram	(via Leiningen, of course)
17:02	justin_smith	OceanBlues: like I said, if you can find the jar anywhere, you can use lein to install it locally once you have it
17:02	OceanBlues	but tell me don't find
17:02	weavejester	talios: Oh, I meant more Maven’s weird dependency resolution
17:02	justin_smith	OceanBlues: right, because nobody uploaded it to maven central or clojars, it seems
17:02	technomancy	how convenient that this problem happened to be raised the week of the conj
17:02	OceanBlues	I problem is that I don't know where to find the jar
17:03	technomancy	anyway you guys go figure everything out at a pub after the sessions or whatever and let us know what you decide
17:03	weavejester	talios: Like if package X requires Z 1.0-1.2, and package Y requires Z 1.1, what version number of Z do you think Maven will pick?
17:03	llasram	technomancy: Oh, are you not going this year?
17:03	technomancy	llasram: unfortunately I can't make it
17:04	llasram	sad face
17:04	OceanBlues	to install is not my trouble
17:04	llasram	Well now it hardly seems worth having the Conj at all
17:04	TimMc	technomancy: I demand a bas relief of you, ato, and xeqi as the Fates
17:04	arrdem	(inc TimMc)
17:05	lazybot	⇒ 82
17:05	technomancy	cardboard cutouts maybe?
17:05	mavbozo	joe armstrong has a crazy idea of using sha1 of source code as name & version and using service like kadimla as service-discovery
17:05	justin_smith	OceanBlues: how do you know this library exists?
17:05	OceanBlues	what I neet it to get the lib
17:05	TimMc	technomancy: This is acceptable.
17:05	technomancy	mavbozo: yeah, IMO the technical questions are less interesting than the social ones though
17:05	OceanBlues	because comes as reference into a book
17:05	hyPiRion	llasram: let's be sad together
17:06	OceanBlues	maybe it's wrong, maybe not
17:06	arrdem	well if we're gonna build a custom package manager for Clojure, we may as well take the opportunity to make sure that it enforces SemVer
17:06	technomancy	arrdem: haha, good luck
17:06	llasram	hyPiRion: I agree to this plan. I did buy non-refundable plane tickets
17:06	arrdem	technomancy: hey we can totally prove that you do or do not superset the existing API :D
17:07	technomancy	arrdem: technically every bug fix is an incompatible change
17:07	hyPiRion	llasram: I have 6 plates of chocolate I'll bring to (attempt to) remedy the absence of technomancy
17:07	technomancy	have fun with that one =)
17:07	arrdem	(dec state)
17:07	lazybot	⇒ -1
17:07	arrdem	wow only -1? come on people what are we doing
17:07	hyPiRion	if someone bring the ice cream we're set
17:08	llasram	someone: got that?
17:08	justin_smith	OceanBlues: the reason I ask, is if I google search for clarix I find nothing that looks like a java or clojure library
17:08	hyPiRion	oh, that's an actual person.
17:08	llasram	Well, it's a real (poorly-chosen) handle :-)
17:08	nullptr	state was -Infinity but it seems to have been reset ... just can't figure out where ... curse you, state!
17:09	llasram	Aaaanyway, speaking of the Conj -- time to go home and pack
17:09	OceanBlues	justin_smith I know I've asked to google so :D
17:09	sdegutis	Is there a Clojure pre-compiler that uses significant whitespace in place of parentheses?
17:10	talios	weavejester - 1.2 - as specified. highest wins. "1.1" is a suggestion. If you want exact - "[1.1]". well known fact.
17:11	weavejester	talios: Right, except that’s almost never what you want.
17:11	alandipert	sdegutis: https://github.com/one-more-minute/chiara is pretty excellent
17:11	talios	weavejester - you want the build to fail? or constrain down to 1.1?
17:12	weavejester	talios: One package is saying, “I’ll be happy with anything from 1.0 to 1.2”, and the other package is saying, “I kinda like 1.1”, then the obvious solution is to use “1.1”.
17:12	weavejester	talios: Maven is really strict about version ranges. IIRC there’s no way to override them.
17:12	talios	weavejester - maybe. "i kinda like 1.1, but I'll take anything higher".
17:13	weavejester	talios: And open version ranges tend to suck up snapshots
17:13	whodidthis	can i clojure.string/trim in a prismatic schema
17:13	TimMc	weavejester: You also have to handle alphas and such intelligently. (Which Maven does not.)
17:13	sdegutis	alandipert: That's.... interesting.
17:13	talios	weavejester - well there is, dependency exclusions - but that gets really nasty. the core problem is that compile-time dependencies are transitive,
17:13	talios	which they shouldn't be
17:13	weavejester	TimMc: Right, which is another problem with Maven
17:14	weavejester	Ideally version ranges should be suggestions.
17:14	weavejester	The project owner should be able to override.
17:14	OceanBlues	justin_smith thank you. I begin to think it could be an old library
17:15	OceanBlues	I've found some reference into github, but not a link
17:15	weavejester	So I release a library with a version range of 1.4-1.6, that just means I’ve tested this library on those versions. It’s not a hard lock.
17:15	talios	weavejester - that's one of the ongoing discussions for the new POM format - global exclusions
17:16	talios	among others - sadly those changes can only really be done for the 'build pom', not the consumer pom
17:16	sdegutis	The tests all pass when using the auto-runner but not when using the plain runner.
17:17	sdegutis	This is a riddle btw.
17:18	xeqi	weavejester, arrdem, TimMc: theres a number of legal issues surrounding a service that allows users to upload almost anything that become more important once $$ is involved
17:18	weavejester	IMO a dependency should look like: [name #{versions}]
17:18	OceanBlues	mistake resolved, library is not clarix, is clatrix, last version 0.4.0 into clojars
17:18	arrdem	xeqi: have you gotten a DMCAwesome complaint yet?
17:19	xeqi	arrdem: that requires having a DMCA registered agent
17:19	technomancy	I would actually seriously consider moving it out of the US
17:19	xeqi	but thats #1 or #2 on my list
17:20	xeqi	most of this is easy to solve
17:20	xeqi	I've just been stuck while reaching out to _ato, as I haven't heard anything from him in the past 2 months
17:21	xeqi	(since I got enough free time to start trying to maintain it)
17:21	sdegutis	weavejester: What was the motivation behind having (GET/POST/etc) be macros, rather than having (defroutes) accept pure data, such as [:get "/bla" ...]?
17:22	weavejester	sdegutis: It allows for flexible composition of routes.
17:22	sdegutis	Oh.
17:22	weavejester	sdegutis: Routes can decide to accept or reject based on arbitrary criteria.
17:22	xeqi	I'd end up pulling everyhing clojars under my consulting company for the corporate sheild
17:22	sdegutis	weavejester: Oh, you mean how a route fn can return nil and pass the request on?
17:22	amalloy	sdegutis: routes are functions, and you can combine two functions to get a function
17:22	weavejester	sdegutis: Right. There are alternatives to Compojure that use a static data structure. i.e. trade flexibility for transparency.
17:23	technomancy	arrdem: https://github.com/project-douglas/the-tao-of-dao/blob/master/_posts/2014-03-06-introducing-ethereum-package-manager.md
17:23	sdegutis	amalloy: thank you sir/gentleman/scholar
17:23	weavejester	xeqi: That’s what I figured you’d do :)
17:23	amalloy	you can't easily combine two of these data structure things and get out another one that makes sense
17:23	sdegutis	weavejester: interesting
17:23	arrdem	technomancy: huh that may actually get me to look seriously into ethereum
17:23	xeqi	but for anyone interested in the the more general discussion of a clojure foundation, you might talk to bridget hillyer and/or daniel solano gomez
17:24	technomancy	arrdem: don't take it too seriously; a few links are 404ing
17:24	arrdem	technomancy: sure but the idea is interesting
17:24	xeqi	we've passed a few emails around along with puredanger about it, and I know they were seriously interested
17:24	arrdem	technomancy: and from what I understand ethereum does provide a bunch of the infrastructure that you'd need for this sort of thing
17:25	weavejester	xeqi: If you need a corporate donator to encourage others to join in, I’d be happy to step up and contribute a modest amount each month to Clojars.
17:26	weavejester	xeqi: So for a brief time I can be Clojar’s top sponsor ;)
17:26	technomancy	https://clojars.org/leaderboard
17:27	arrdem	lol
17:27	xeqi	weavejester: heh, thanks
17:27	kzar	(doto h (.setEnabled true)) could be written as (.setEnabled h true) right?
17:27	xeqi	I did get one serious offer that I've had to table while waiting
17:28	arrdem	I'd be happy to throw some money at clojars as well. that Cider gets $23/wk in tips and you don't is... silly to say the least
17:28	technomancy	the leaderboard would have both "code released" and "money contributed" axes
17:28	arrdem	s/cider/bbatsov/g
17:28	xeqi	bah, bbatsov should get more then that
17:28	weavejester	kzar: The side effects would be the same, but the return value would be different.
17:29	kzar	weavejester: Right, thought so. I don't care about return value in this instance
17:29	weavejester	technomancy: I like that idea :)
17:29	xeqi	also, I guess I should publically lambast technomancy for trying to run untested code on a repl in a live server
17:30	cprice404	+1, would contribute some $$ to clojars
17:30	technomancy	I'll be the fall guy.
17:30	justin_smith	,(doto 'technomancy :lambast)
17:30	clojurebot	technomancy
17:31	arrdem	(inc justin_smith)
17:31	lazybot	⇒ 136
17:31	technomancy	"Contribute to clojars, or technomancy will have to keep running random defns in a live repl using libraries he hasn't touched in three years"
17:31	nickik	Maybe im just stupid, but does anybody know how to get the data that I past into pedestal (its a POST request)?
17:32	dbasch	technomancy: you could have a “featured artifact” slot that refreshes every 24 hours and goes to whoever pledges the most BTC or something
17:33	arrdem	google ads for clojars packages!
17:33	xeqi	so I guess you guys are for me totally selling out
17:35	xeqi	badges for users, special skins for packages
17:35	xeqi	oooh oohh
17:35	arrdem	inb4 hats
17:35	justin_smith	xeqi: hats for package avatars
17:35	justin_smith	lol
17:35	hfaafb	badgers for users
17:35	xeqi	you have used X/1 upload energy this month. Buy crystals for recharging!
17:35	arrdem	justin_smith: CALLED IT
17:35	justin_smith	you did
17:35	sdegutis	weavejester: I like a ton of what Compojure does, I wouldn't want to switch to a different library just to get a DSL that takes data instead of functions, because then I'd be missing out on all the other stuff your library does.
17:35	amalloy	xeqi: in-app purchases
17:36	OceanBlues	see you
17:36	dbasch	clojars gold, just like reddit gold but less useful
17:36	xeqi	dbasch: reddit gold is useful?
17:36	amalloy	dbasch: how is this possible?
17:36	dbasch	xeqi: no
17:36	mavbozo	nickik: what's the code look like?
17:36	dbasch	amalloy: usefulness can be negative
17:37	amalloy	ah. so clojars gold comes with a free rabid beaver delivered to your apartment when you're not expecting it?
17:37	mavbozo	nickik: your interceptor code?
17:38	dbasch	amalloy: I like that, but it has some probability of being useful depending on who visits you
17:38	hiredman	alternatively someone should figure out how to graft maven on to bittorrent in a way that preserves some amount of trust
17:39	amalloy	hiredman: "i trust that maven grafted onto bittorrent will still result in downloading the whole internet"
17:39	dbasch	Ubuntu Rabid Rodent, how did they miss that
17:39	talios	hiredman - bittorrentsync based wagon provider should solve that.
17:40	hiredman	talios: I don't think it is that easy
17:41	hiredman	talios: I don't think clients doing downloads run long enough to help serve other clients, so you would need something beyond just the wagon
17:42	sdegutis	speaking of reddit http://www.reddit.com/r/shittyaskscience/comments/2mhbth/if_heat_rises_why_isnt_the_sky_on_fire/
17:42	hiredman	you would also need to either get really serious about artifact signing, or come up with something else
17:42	TimMc	dbasch: Maybe in 12 years when they come back around to R...
17:42	technomancy	hiredman: there's still the question of claiming group-ids.
17:42	hiredman	right
17:43	dbasch	technomancy: you could claim one per bitcoin block?
17:43	gfredericks	hiredman: artifact just-leaving-it-on-the-front-step-and-crossing-your-fingers
17:43	nickik	mavbozo, hi, like this ["/:index" {:get get-index
17:43	nickik	:put make-move}]
17:44	sdegutis	Is (ns) officially the way to create Clojure files, or is it just a convention that happened to be adopted universally?
17:44	nickik	I do PUT /5 {:connect 5}
17:44	nickik	How can I get the {:connect 5} body
17:45	hiredman	we just had a little bit of a hiccup at work were due to mucking with the kernel for $REASONS we lost the node that was running our archiva node, which lead to the discovery of not good enough backups, which lead to a recovery of our artifacts out of various persons ~/.m2 directories
17:45	hiredman	which, well, if you formalized would be sort of like bittorrent
17:45	TimMc	technomancy: Namecoin is a thing, although I haven't researched it.
17:45	nickik	mavbozo, see the hole routes table http://paste.lisp.org/display/144407
17:46	TimMc	hiredman: We had a serious internet outage at the office some months back and I was seriously considering going around with a thumb-drive and having people rsync stuff onto it.
17:46	TimMc	(I guess it was very serious. Seriously.)
17:46	arrdem	namecoin for groupids would probably work just because it'd be a shake and bake implementation of the blockchain "first registrant wins"
17:47	arrdem	I was kicking around the idea of Web of Trust, since apparently we trust xeqi and technomancy with our packages :P
17:47	arrdem	most trusted package wins given a name conflict..
17:48	mavbozo	nickik: assuming your make-move handler like this (defn make-move [req] ...)
17:48	sdegutis	Like, can you have a Clojure file that doesn't have an (ns) form at the beginning?
17:48	AimHere	Surely the most trusted package is the package manager
17:49	arrdem	naturally
17:51	nickik	mavbozo, yes
17:52	nickik	I tried things like (:body request) and othres
17:52	nickik	I cant find documentation on this
17:52	TimMc	sdegutis: You could, but you'd have to manually set up the namespace in external code and then load the file in the context of that ns.
17:52	sdegutis	Anyone have thoughts on Joodo? http://joodoweb.com/
17:52	TimMc	So.... why?
17:53	justin_smith	nickik: something I find useful is (def debug (atom nil)) and then inside the handler (reset! debug request), then in the shell (keys @debug) and whatever else I want to try until I see what data is where
17:53	justin_smith	nickik: assuming you have a shell inside the same process as the pedastal server
17:54	justin_smith	TimMc: clojure.core does it. Not to say that proves it is a good idea.
17:54	hyPiRion	TimMc: Couldn't you just connect via the intranet? I mean, you should be able to reach people even if the connection to the outside world fails.
17:55	TimMc	hyPiRion: I think intranet was down, come to think of it.
17:55	hyPiRion	ah
17:55	TimMc	squirrels in the telecom room or something
17:55	nickik	interesting idea in general, but how is that diffrent then just looking at the request param
17:56	justin_smith	nickik: it is interactively using it, which can be much more expedient than trying to read a large structure
17:56	hyPiRion	TimMc: wat
17:56	TimMc	Just guessing.
17:56	TimMc	It was down and then it was back up. I never found out what the issue was.
17:56	justin_smith	nickik: also, lets you write code that accesses the exact request data in the repl, which can speed up development
17:57	TimMc	justin_smith: clojure.core splits an ns into multiple files; I think sdegutis was suggesting not even having an ns block.
17:57	hyPiRion	We had a broken water pipe right over our server room 2 weeks ago actually. That was a rather interesting experience.
17:57	justin_smith	TimMc: a classic is when someone plugs an ethernet cable, both ends into one box
17:58	justin_smith	TimMc: then he is just in ns user the whole time, but I thought he would be doing it from another file that does have an ns block
17:58	sdegutis	I've beg{a,u}n to disagree with the way mainstream Clojure is written as being the best way, and I'm experimenting with new techniques.
17:58	sdegutis	I like Clojure a lot, but I don't like the structure of our app at all. It's a stereotypical Clojure web app too.
17:59	hyPiRion	You could always try swearjure
17:59	nickik	The body is #<HttpInputOverHTTP HttpInputOverHTTP@38d2dd9b> im not sure what that means
17:59	justin_smith	sdegutis: well, that yak aint gonna shave itself
17:59	justin_smith	nickik: it's an input stream
18:00	justin_smith	you can call slurp on it
18:00	sdegutis	Are ##(ns foo) and ##(in-ns 'foo) exactly identical?
18:00	lazybot	(ns foo) java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! in-ns is bad!
18:00	lazybot	(in-ns (quote foo)) java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! in-ns is bad!
18:00	justin_smith	nickik: or whatever else you would do with a java.io.InputStream
18:00	sdegutis	Ah.
18:00	sdegutis	Thanks lazybot for telling me that's a macro and expanding it for me.
18:00	justin_smith	sdegutis: in-ns does not create the default clojure.core mappings
18:00	sdegutis	Ahh.
18:01	nickik	should it not be easier then doing this by hand, can I not just tell pedestal that I expect edn?
18:01	sdegutis	Sweet!
18:01	sdegutis	I have some very real ideas.
18:02	justin_smith	nickik: well, thanks to doing this much by hand, we have established that nothing is consuming / interpreting the request body. Yeah, the sane next step is to tell pedastal how to interpret the request body so you can access it more conveniently.
18:02	nickik	slurp seams to have crashed ...
18:03	nickik	So there are no body parsing intersepters provided?
18:03	justin_smith	nickik: I would be very surprised if they are not available
18:03	justin_smith	but you have evidence that they have not been applied
18:05	mavbozo	nickik: put "Content-type: application/edn" in your request header
18:05	mavbozo	nickik: like curl -H "Content-type: application/edn"
18:06	nickik	ah, so if the header is correct it does it automaticlly
18:06	sdegutis	Wait a second, why does (prn ns) say #<Namespace user> in a file that starts with (ns foobar.core) ?
18:06	justin_smith	sdegutis: is the prn happening inside a function or at the top level?
18:06	mavbozo	nickik: {:connect 5} is in :edn-params key
18:06	sdegutis	Oh, apparently it's set to 'user during -main
18:06	sdegutis	justin_smith: during -main
18:06	justin_smith	ns is only foobar.core while that is being compiled
18:07	sdegutis	Where is it documented to be 'user during -main?
18:07	justin_smith	'user is always the default ns
18:07	amalloy	sdegutis: ns is only set to anything useful at compile time
18:07	sdegutis	Oh. Thanks :)
18:07	amalloy	justin_smith: tbh i would have guessed that clojure.core was the default
18:07	arrdem	it's application/json, right?
18:07	justin_smith	amalloy: but the repl
18:08	amalloy	$google json mime type
18:08	lazybot	[What is the correct JSON content type? - Stack Overflow] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/477816/what-is-the-correct-json-content-type
18:08	sdegutis	amalloy: wouldn't that make all defs be visible to all new namespaces?
18:08	justin_smith	sdegutis: defs are global, but namespaced
18:09	amalloy	sdegutis: that's a good point, although not quite right: we're talking about what it is at runtime, and you aren't def'ing anything at runtime
18:09	sdegutis	o
18:09	sdegutis	Okay thanks.
18:10	mavbozo	nickik: the body-params interceptor handle that automatically based on known content-type
18:12	nickik	I see, cool
18:12	brucehauman	this is soo late in the game but I’m checking to see if any of ya’ll want a Clojure conj ticket.
18:12	film42424	Question for anyone around: I'm trying to implement an interface, but I need several default state variables. Is it better to use reify and a let-block, or should I use deftype and create a function to make sure default state vars are assigned? code: https://github.com/film42/hn-follow/blob/gt/poller/src/hn_follow/core/poller.clj#L13-L16
18:14	justin_smith	film42424: reify+defaults doesn't make since, because reify creates one offs - or do you want a generator function for one-off classes that has defaults?
18:14	justin_smith	s/since/sense
18:14	justin_smith	but either way, the most sensible thing is a function that creates an instance of the right thing, and that function can merge in defaults
18:15	film42424	justin_smith: ok. It just feels weird to open default params that shouldn't be exposed like that
18:15	mavbozo	nickik: looking at the source code the default supported content-type are application/edn, application/json, application/x-www-form-urlencoded, application/transit+json, application/transit+msgpack
18:15	justin_smith	film42424: why would applying defaults inside a function be "opening" them?
18:16	film42424	Just because the type is still in the namespace
18:16	amalloy	film42424: reify in a let-block is a pretty normal way to get a stateful implementation of an interface
18:16	{blake}	brucehauman: For how much?
18:16	brucehauman	I’m willing to work with ya at this point.
18:17	brucehauman	[blake] let me know what you are thinking
18:18	{blake}	brucehauman: Just wondering if I could swing it (ticket, flight, room).
18:18	film42424	Ok, thanks amalloy and justin_smith
18:18	brucehauman	[blake] i’d rather have someone who would benefit use it than let it go to waste
18:19	m1dnight_	is there a way to take a function (a set of expressions wrapped in a parameterless lambda) and execute it, but cancel it if needed?
18:19	justin_smith	m1dnight_: ##(doc future-cancel)
18:19	lazybot	⇒ "([f]); Cancels the future, if possible."
18:19	m1dnight_	I know in java you have for example isInterrupted() but that requires an explicit check
18:19	justin_smith	my favorite doc string evar
18:20	m1dnight_	hrm, it's the "if possible" that bugs me
18:20	nickik	mavbozo justin_smith thanks for your help
18:20	m1dnight_	but I might be able to do something with that
18:20	dbasch	justin_smith: lazybot was sent to find John Connor. Are you John Connor?
18:21	arrdem	lazybot is our only hope
18:21	dbasch	justin_smith: but you can reprogram lazybot. Or have you already?
18:22	justin_smith	m1dnight_: https://www.refheap.com/93603 future-cancel works
18:23	m1dnight_	hrm, I might look into that
18:23	m1dnight_	I think I can use it as a tool in this scenario
18:23	m1dnight_	Ideally a call/cc wouldve been more elegant
18:23	justin_smith	m1dnight_: the output is a bit weird of course, but hopefully what happened there makes sense
18:23	m1dnight_	but you can't always get what you want
18:23	m1dnight_	yeah it sure does :) thnx
18:24	m1dnight_	I had a thesis meeeting today :p "i'm finding it a bit more difficult than anticipated"
18:24	m1dnight_	reply: "well.. of course.."
18:24	justin_smith	m1dnight_: I would be hesitant to do that without a sleep in the loop, even a fairly short one
18:24	m1dnight_	I realize that
18:24	justin_smith	cool
18:24	m1dnight_	But I think I don't really need granularity in cancellation
18:25	m1dnight_	but I do need assurance of cancellation
18:25	m1dnight_	I think trying it out would be best
18:25	justin_smith	m1dnight_: note the realized? function (and the return value of future-cancel)
18:29	m1dnight_	A few minutes on the whiteboard and I think it's perfect
18:29	m1dnight_	combined with an add-watch
18:29	m1dnight_	et voila :p
18:29	m1dnight_	I love it when a plan comes together! :p
18:29	clojurebot	Pardon?
18:30	justin_smith	glad I could help
18:30	m1dnight_	well clojurebot, I mean that my brain excreted endorphines when a certain outcome of a scenario is what I want it to be. Is that clearer?
18:31	kzar	Trying to get a Clojurescript repl work, started the server with `lein trampoline cljsbuild repl-listen` and trying to connect to it using clojure.browser.repl/connect. When server is running and I load the page it never completes, but never connects. When the server isn't running I instantly get back a connection refused error
18:38	csd_	Really enjoying Clojure Cookbook
19:09	justin_smith	$ping
19:09	lazybot	justin_smith: Ping completed in 0 seconds.
19:09	justin_smith	technomancy: fustirge is spamming
19:17	amalloy	justin_smith: the ping command is really weird. it doesn't really seem to do what it says it does
19:18	justin_smith	$ping example.com
19:18	lazybot	justin_smith: FAILURE!
19:18	justin_smith	$ping refheap.com
19:18	lazybot	justin_smith: Ping completed in 0 seconds.
19:24	andyf	amalloy: https://github.com/jonase/eastwood#unused-meta-on-macro. I think you suggested this idea. Thx
19:25	amalloy	andyf: i didn't suggest the eastwood linter, just opened the jira ticket. someone else suggested a linter. glad to see it, though
19:26	amalloy	andyf: using def in that first example is a little weird, since the metadata there has no impact as far as i'm aware
19:27	andyf	amalloy: Yeah, example should be better
19:27	amalloy	the rest of the description is well-written, as i said about one of your earlier drafts
19:28	andyf	I should wrap them inside .close calls like later examples
19:30	csd_	Is it possible to reset out without opening a new REPL session? I somehow broke something while fooling around with `with-open`, and now I can't print to it.
19:31	justin_smith	csd_: you can reconnect to the same nrepl server, and get a working out binding in that session
19:31	justin_smith	if you are running nrepl (which is likely if you are using lein)
19:31	csd_	ok
19:31	justin_smith	technically it is a different session, but it's the same clojure instance
19:32	csd_	do you know what happens when in and out break? i get a similar problem if I halt execution while (read-line) is looking for input
19:32	justin_smith	so everything you were defining is still there, but things like out and in and 1 and e are all rebound
19:32	justin_smith	csd_: not really, but I don't use (read-line) in the repl very often
19:34	csd_	that trick worked, thanks
19:34	akkad	clojure-py it is
19:35	arrdem	akkad: check out pixie :D
19:35	AeroNotix	What do people use for their graphite metric exporters?
19:35	AeroNotix	I'm not satisfied with the current stuff
19:36	csd_	justin_smith: how would you personally send a complicated string to stdout. right now it seems to me the best option is just to create a StringBuilder and append to it as necessary. i'm wondering whether there might be a better approach
19:36	AeroNotix	current being codahale, dropwizard java libraries
19:36	justin_smith	csd_: str uses a StringBuilder btw
19:36	akkad	pre-alpha./
19:36	justin_smith	but some things are easier if you explicitly use a StringBuilder, yeah
19:37	justin_smith	but definitely construct the whole thing before printing
19:37	amalloy	csd_: also, printf and format
19:37	csd_	i'd love to find some resource that makes me more comfortable on when to use mutability
19:38	justin_smith	csd_: if there is no code-path that leaves the current thread, and you don't return the mutable value, it is probably OK - but still only opt into mutability when it is needed
19:38	justin_smith	sometimes returning a mutable thing can be OK, if it is only passed forward and not mutated concurrently, and using an immutible value is excessive overhead. But profile first.
19:38	csd_	what about atoms used infrequently to track state at a namespace level?
19:39	amalloy	csd_: an antipattern
19:39	amalloy	because it makes your whole program a singleton
19:39	justin_smith	csd_: I am OK with that if the atom is named "debug" and isn't in any code that ships
19:39	justin_smith	if any logic depends on the atom contents, probably a sign of poor design
19:40	amalloy	it's also okay-ish for an application, where you know that being a singleton is okay, although usually it turns out a lot cleaner if you design as if multiple instances are possible anyway
19:40	justin_smith	right
19:40	csd_	by singleton do you just mean that it prevents code reuse?
19:40	justin_smith	csd_: it means two different parts of the same code base can't use the same lib
19:40	justin_smith	because it holds state
19:41	justin_smith	what if you write lib a, that uses a global atom, and I want to use libs b and c that both want to use lib a
19:41	justin_smith	I'm probably stuck
19:41	csd_	i was thinking though that the alternative to using globals for state is to cram them all into a map that gets passed from function to function, and that doesn't seem particularly elegant to me either
19:41	justin_smith	csd_: it works
19:42	sdegutis	Do you absolutely need to use :gen-class when deploying a pure Clojure stand-alone .jar?
19:42	justin_smith	sdegutis: absolutely not
19:42	justin_smith	java -cp some.uber.jar -m some.uber.main
19:43	justin_smith	errr
19:43	justin_smith	java -cp some.uber.jar -m clojure.main some.uber.main
19:43	sdegutis	Thanks!
19:43	justin_smith	something like that
19:43	justin_smith	you can make clojure load that ns/ run that main
19:43	sdegutis	fustirge: spambot
19:49	sdegutis	Where did load-script go?
19:49	sdegutis	,load-script
19:49	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: load-script in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
19:49	dbasch	sdegutis: clojure.main
19:50	sdegutis	Also, is there a better way of doing this? (load (slurp (io/resource "bla.clj")))
19:50	sdegutis	Or maybe I meant s/load/eval/
19:50	andyf	load-file maybe ?
19:51	sdegutis	That seems to not find stuff in my jar's resources.
19:53	andyf	sdegutis: Do you have :resource-paths in your project.clj ?
19:54	sdegutis	andyf: Ah no, but it's just ./resources/
19:54	andyf	Verified that bla.clj is really in your jar ?
19:54	sdegutis	Nope :)
19:55	andyf	I don't know if there is a default for resource path or not
19:55	justin_smith	andyf: load-file wouldn't load from the classpath would it?
19:55	andyf	I haven't tried, but don't know a reason why not off hand
19:56	sdegutis	Right now I'm just doing (eval (read-string (slurp (io/resource "bla.clj"))))
19:56	justin_smith	sdegutis: perhaps you want load-string
19:56	sdegutis	Yep!
19:56	justin_smith	(load-string (slurp (io/resource ...)))
19:56	sdegutis	That's way better.
19:56	justin_smith	oooh
19:57	justin_smith	try (load-reader (io/resource ...))
19:57	justin_smith	that should work
19:57	sdegutis	java.net.URL cannot be cast to java.io.Reader
19:57	justin_smith	OK
19:57	justin_smith	so load-string it is
19:59	justin_smith	(load-reader (io/input-stream (io/reader ...))) works
19:59	justin_smith	three calls, either way
19:59	sdegutis	I'm still trying to find a way to make it work with load-file
20:00	sdegutis	Or maybe even (load).
20:00	sdegutis	https://clojuredocs.org/clojure.core/load -- seems to suggest it looks in jar's resources.
20:00	sdegutis	Except that I want it in the stand-alone uberjar.
20:08	amalloy	sdegutis: resources are included in the uberjar
20:15	justin_smith	amalloy: (load (io/resource "name.clj")) gives "URL cannot be cast to String"
20:16	amalloy	justin_smith: okay?
20:16	justin_smith	amalloy: sorry, misread some backscroll
20:24	justin_smith	sdegutis: oh, (load "/foo/bar") will find src/foo/bar.clj
20:25	justin_smith	the trick is to leave off the .clj part
20:25	justin_smith	(and put in a / to make it classpath relative)
20:28	sdegutis	justin_smith: But that won't find src/foo/bar.clj in the uberjar.
20:28	justin_smith	yes, it will
20:28	sdegutis	!!
20:28	justin_smith	the leading / means look int the classpath
20:28	sdegutis	My earlier test must have then been faulty.
20:28	justin_smith	did you have a leading / ?
20:28	sdegutis	Ahh, nope.
20:28	sdegutis	justin_smith = gentleman + scholar
20:31	sdegutis	justin_smith: that even works without io/resource
20:31	justin_smith	sdegutis: right
20:31	sdegutis	(load "/foo/bar") will find src/foo/bar.clj
20:31	sdegutis	Awesome!
20:31	justin_smith	indeed
20:32	sdegutis	This is going to make my view files a lot slimmer.
20:33	justin_smith	sdegutis: I like the greater referential transperency of require, and putting the whole ns definition in one file
20:33	justin_smith	sdegutis: in the very least, put a comment in the file you are loading indicating who loads it...
20:33	sdegutis	I'm doing a convention-over-configuration thing here.
20:33	sdegutis	So it'll be clear who uses it by its path.
20:34	sdegutis	Oh no! The return value from (load) seems to be nil now!
20:34	justin_smith	yeah, load-reader returns the last thing in the file, load returns nil
20:34	justin_smith	for whatever reason...
20:34	sdegutis	Weird.
20:35	sdegutis	Dang, it was just (load "/foo") for a second.
20:35	sdegutis	Now it's gotta be that 3-call long thing again :(
20:35	arrdem	makes sense to me... we need a way to load reading a value for files like data-readers
20:35	justin_smith	or, you may even have to write a function that calls three functions!
20:35	arrdem	but in general load for side-effects is bad..
20:39	sdegutis	arrdem: Yeah I was hoping to get a return value from it, nothing else.
20:39	sdegutis	Dang.
20:43	sdegutis	Ahhh.
20:43	sdegutis	(load) runs a doseq on all the paths, thus it returns nil.
20:43	sdegutis	Whatever, I'll just use clojure.lang.RT/load
20:44	sdegutis	That's public so why not, right?
20:44	arrdem	because it's an undocumented implementation detail that's not portable?
20:44	sdegutis	Portable to what?
20:45	sdegutis	arrdem: Do you mean I won't be able to run my code in a JavaScript environment or the CLR?
20:46	sdegutis	arrdem: I'm already making use of JVM-specific features so this isn't really a show-stopper.
20:46	sdegutis	justin_smith: the load-reader one seems to not work if it's in src/
20:46	justin_smith	even if it is on the classpath?
20:47	justin_smith	wait, are you specifying the path classpath relative, or relative to current dir, or?
20:52	sdegutis	justin_smith: I don't even know how to make the load-reader version work.
20:52	sdegutis	justin_smith: I tried variations on your incantation from above and all threw exceptions.
20:53	justin_smith	(load-reader (clojure.java.io/reader (clojure.java.io/resource "foo/bar.clj")))
20:53	sdegutis	Won't that only work if the file is ./resources/foo/bar.clj ?
20:53	sdegutis	And not ./src/...?
20:54	justin_smith	src/ is on the classpath
20:54	sdegutis	I was hoping to avoid putting these files in ./src -- oh.
20:54	justin_smith	resource just means "look in the class path"
20:54	sdegutis	Oh!
20:54	justin_smith	so you could add an extra "loadable/" dir, and put it on the classpath
20:54	justin_smith	and it would work
20:54	sdegutis	IT WORKED!
20:55	sdegutis	I am so excited.
20:55	sdegutis	I love how small a Clojure hello-world is.
20:56	sdegutis	31 lines total, counting all 4 files, for my little experiment.
20:56	sdegutis	And 9 of them are just a .gitignore!
20:56	justin_smith	heh
20:56	sdegutis	Thanks justin_smith for saving the day.
20:56	justin_smith	np
20:57	amalloy	sdegutis: a clojure hello-world is 13 characters
20:57	amalloy	"hello world"
20:57	justin_smith	you should add a bunch of crap to gitignore so you can say the majority of the lines in your codebase are .gitignore
20:57	sdegutis	amalloy: https://www.dropbox.com/s/mwl5o8tyb88np3k/Screen%20Shot%202014-11-18%20at%207.56.34%20PM.png?dl=0
20:58	sdegutis	(It was a pretty thorough experiment.)
20:58	sdegutis	justin_smith: lol
20:59	justin_smith	sdegutis: what do you think of (-> "rtest/views/one.clj" io/resource io/reader load-reader)
21:01	sdegutis	justin_smith: much sexier
21:02	gfredericks	I was trying to write a script to notify me when clojars came back up and it was back up before I could finish
21:02	sdegutis	justin_smith: ultimately it'll be hidden away in a small function somewhere though anyway
21:02	amalloy	justin_smith: i don't like it. if you i'd prefer something like (load-reader (-> "rtest/views/one.clj" (io/resource) (io/reader))), if you are going to use ->
21:02	sdegutis	gfredericks: ha
21:02	sdegutis	amalloy = gentleman / scholar
21:02	amalloy	the fully-arrowed version makes it hard to find the important part, ie that you are reading something
21:02	amalloy	non-arrowed makes it hard to find what you are reading
21:02	gfredericks	(inc technomancy) ;; keepin the clojars fire alive
21:02	lazybot	⇒ 158
21:03	amalloy	partial arrowing brings those both to the forefront and hides the boring details
21:03	justin_smith	amalloy: nice, I like that
21:03	amalloy	but i think fully arrowed is harder to read than no arrow at all, here
21:07	TEttinger	well, it looks like many of the pros are here, except technomancy. I'm having a hard time understanding why this JRE bundler (Packr) works with a "Hello World" runnable jar made by java tools (eclipse and a java source file), but fails on any play-clj projects with lein uberjar. I suspect it maybe related to a macro in play-clj
21:08	TEttinger	the macro in question: http://oakes.github.io/play-clj/core.defgame.html
21:08	TEttinger	I'm not sure if this does something that makes the uberjar's main class invalid somehow
21:09	TEttinger	this issue is here on Packr, it might need posting on play-clj's issue tracker https://github.com/libgdx/packr/issues/33
21:10	TEttinger	notably, someone got it working with a java main class loading a clojure class, but I couldn't figure out how to do that in lein
21:12	amalloy	TEttinger: it's pretty easy to write a java shim that just loads the clojure runtime and then calls some var of yours
21:12	clojurebot	excusez-moi
21:12	TEttinger	right, but can that be done from inside one mixed java-clojure project?
21:12	justin_smith	amalloy: is there a walk through or blog post about doing that anywhere?
21:12	amalloy	of course. i do it all the time
21:12	amalloy	uhhhhhhh
21:13	TEttinger	and the end goal of this is to run packr on arbitrary clojure projects
21:13	amalloy	here, use https://github.com/amalloy/thrift-gen as your example
21:13	TEttinger	as a lein plugin
21:13	TEttinger	cool thanks
21:13	justin_smith	(inc amalloy)
21:13	lazybot	⇒ 195
21:13	justin_smith	thanks
21:13	gfredericks	what's the standard leiningen setup for when you want to run tests with lots of clojure versions? I started with aliasing "test" to a bunch of calls to with-profile/test, but that feels weird
21:14	gfredericks	but I worry if I call it "test-all" I'll just forget to run it
21:14	amalloy	it has a bunch of junk you don't care about for making stuff java-friendly; the core is just the static {} block at the top, the one-arg constructor, and buildSamples(int)
21:14	TEttinger	amalloy: there's no :main in there -- it won't work as an uberjar, will it?
21:14	amalloy	TEttinger: just add :main my.java.Class to project.clj
21:14	amalloy	i think
21:15	amalloy	and no, this is a library, not an application, so it has no main
21:15	amalloy	but this is how you write a java bridge to your clojure code all in one project
21:15	xeqi	gfredericks: something like `lein all test` w/ https://github.com/xeqi/peridot/blob/master/project.clj#L28 ?
21:15	amalloy	or how i do it, anyway
21:15	TEttinger	k, the issue I had was that the java couldn't see the clojure files
21:15	TEttinger	class files i mean
21:15	gfredericks	xeqi: woah look at those colons
21:15	amalloy	well yeah, it shouldn't have to
21:16	amalloy	depending on what kind of interop you're doing, i suppose
21:16	amalloy	my sample project only uses vars, doesn't create any classes from clojure; if you want to do that it's substantially harder
21:16	TEttinger	java calling clojure code with a call to proxy in it
21:16	amalloy	that's fine
21:16	amalloy	just call the function through its var
21:17	amalloy	you don't need to see any classfiles
21:17	justin_smith	TEttinger: maybe you want to just use clojure.lang.RT to require and run the main namespace?
21:17	xeqi	gfredericks: did you see technomancy's tweet about the new highlighting with racket? https://github.com/technomancy/atreus/blob/master/atreus.rkt#L222
21:17	gfredericks	I did see that :)
21:18	justin_smith	xeqi: it's a good thing that's highlighted, or he may not have noticed he was accidentally using vectors
21:18	justin_smith	xeqi: common mistake
21:18	gfredericks	xeqi: this is a cool lein trick thanks
21:19	arrdem	is there a good name for symbols like finally, catch and the core.async channel operators that are actually just tokens other macros look for?
21:20	gfredericks	headaches
21:20	brehaut	sentinals
21:20	gfredericks	clojure even uses keywords like that in one or two places
21:20	amalloy	arrdem: they are, in a way, anaphora
21:21	justin_smith	amalloy: what thing is "catch" a pronoun for?
21:21	gfredericks	maybe that's slightly weirder
21:21	amalloy	gfredericks: thinking of cond :->, or whatever the token is?
21:21	technomancy	aren't they just special forms?
21:21	gfredericks	amalloy: yeah
21:21	amalloy	technomancy: no
21:21	arrdem	technomancy: but special form implies compiler rather than macro support
21:21	technomancy	the compiler* looks for them
21:21	technomancy	* - fsvo complire
21:21	technomancy	arrdem: macros are just compiler directives
21:22	amalloy	technomancy: try is a special form, which handles nested catches specially, but catch is not itself a special form
21:22	arrdem	basically I'm looking for a name for a documentation entity that redirects to something else :P
21:22	amalloy	justin_smith: i think you're right that anaphor is wrong
21:22	arrdem	as catch and finally punt to try right now
21:22	brehaut	arrdem: i think its normally used as a terminator in lists and trees, but its kind of fullfilling the same role
21:23	arrdem	brehaut: sure
21:23	TEttinger	amalloy: what does this do: generator = Clojure.var("thrift.gen", "struct-gen");
21:23	TEttinger	is it calling struct-gen ?
21:23	amalloy	guys if you actually call it sentinal instead of sentinel i will die
21:23	TEttinger	or is that defined in thrift,gen
21:24	amalloy	TEttinger: it's (let [generator #'thrift.gen/struct-gen]). have you read any of the code or docs for clojure.java.api.Clojure?
21:24	TEttinger	no
21:25	amalloy	well, i recommend you do so. its javadoc contains an annotated example of how to call clojure code from java
21:25	amalloy	it's like the only class in all of the clojure source that has decent javadoc
21:25	TEttinger	so it's just getting a var from that ns, and assigning to one in this one?
21:25	TEttinger	cool
21:25	justin_smith	that's like a version of "bro, do you even lift?" for #clojure
21:25	TEttinger	I'll take a look, thanks
21:25	TEttinger	(inc amalloy)
21:25	lazybot	⇒ 196
21:39	arrdem	danielcompton: OSS is totally a hardware store if you have enough karma to get other people to do work for you :P
21:39	danielcompton	ghadishayban: interesting https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/PersistentHashMap.java#L752
21:39	danielcompton	oops
21:40	danielcompton	arrdem: someone's got to sweep the floors still :)
21:40	danielcompton	(dec someone)
21:40	lazybot	⇒ 1
21:40	wei	is there an argument I can pass to take-last that will take the entire collection?
21:41	danielcompton	wei: why do you need to take-last at all if you want the whole thing?
21:43	wei	in my function, you can specify a limit through an options map. if it’s nil, i want to return the whole thing. so I need a function that works like take-last, but (take-last nil (range 3)) => (0 1 2)
21:43	danielcompton	wei: I'd probably just avoid the take-last call entirely in an if branch
21:43	danielcompton	wei: if I understand you correctly
21:44	danielcompton	$karma aardem
21:44	lazybot	aardem has karma 0.
21:44	danielcompton	$karma arrdem
21:44	lazybot	arrdem has karma 39.
21:44	danielcompton	aaardem the pirate
21:44	arrdem	nobody likes my jokes and the newbies don't know to inc :P
21:45	metellus	wei: you could maybe use fnil
21:46	danielcompton	arrdem: you gotta sneak in at night and inc yourself when no-ones here
21:46	arrdem	hehe
21:46	metellus	i don't think lazybot allows that
21:46	arrdem	at night andyf and TEttinger come out to keep the peace
21:47	arrdem	clearly my only question is to ask myself questions
21:47	arrdem	*s/question/option/g
21:47	danielcompton	(inc danielcompton)
21:47	lazybot	You can't adjust your own karma.
21:47	danielcompton	kicks lazybot
21:49	TEttinger	amalloy, ok this is odd, certainly. I keep getting type errors when I try to take the var I get out of clojure and use its value (it's been def'd) in java
21:49	danielcompton	Is ##java the right place to ask questions about Java stuff?
21:50	TEttinger	danielcompton: someone once tried to pay me to do his homework in ##java
21:50	TEttinger	I think I convinced him to go into a business major instead
21:50	andyf	danielcompton: Was that phm source link intended to point to something you believe is a bug?
21:50	marshall	hey clojure
21:50	danielcompton	TEttinger: I hope you asked for his uni email address then reported him to his lecturer
21:50	TEttinger	"you certaily have the moral flexibility needed for business"
21:50	danielcompton	andyf: nope, I was going through my previous replies and accidentally pressed enter
21:51	marshall	I have a ring server that sometimes 404s when I try to POST to /. like, it'll 404 when i try to do it using Postman (chrome app for making requests) and it'll work fine when I use cURL
21:54	danielcompton	TEttinger: solved my problem, learned more about unicode, didn't need to delve into ##java
21:54	TEttinger	nice
21:55	amalloy	marshall: sounds like you need to find out what's different between the two different kinds of requests
22:01	gfredericks	marshall: `nc -l 9000` is helpful for debugging the difference between two http clients
22:01	marshall	ok
22:02	marshall	that'll show me everything going across port 9000, yeah?
22:02	jgdavey	marshall: You would make a request using both clients to that listener
22:04	jgdavey	i.e., run netcat (nc) in one pane, then curl in another. Repeat for Chrome.
22:04	mindbender1	pallet's api names are a disturbance to my thought process.
22:04	marshall	ok, thanks
22:07	andyf	Does anyone else wish Clojure compiler messages gave full paths and/or URIs instead of the path relative to where the file is in an unspecified one of your classpath items?
22:08	danielcompton	andyf: after looking at python stack traces, not particularly
22:09	andyf	Do any existing dev environments figure out where those things are? If so, how? I guess they could just do io/resource on them?
22:10	Jesterman81	hey ladies/gents, how are you configuring your clojure apps?
22:10	hiredman	we had a patched clojure at work back around 1.2 I think that added full path names to compiler excetions
22:10	arrdem	andyf: io/resource is the smartest thing I'm aware of besides classpath introspection via tools.classpath
22:10	marshall	what's the most popular clojure web framework?
22:11	marshall	clojure and java are completely foreign to me, and i'm trying to create a simple api that uses duckling to parse date ranges in natural language
22:11	marshall	i'm having a lot of trouble with this compojure framework
22:12	danielcompton	marshall: is there a specific issue we can help with?
22:13	marshall	this is my clojure app: http://pastebin.com/EyjSVcu9
22:15	danielszmulewicz	howdy, is there anything new regarding generating externs for cljs advanced compilation. Anything else besides Chris Houser's gist?
22:16	danielszmulewicz	dnolen_ said something about integrating that functionality in the clojurescript compiler. Has it been done?
22:16	alandipert	danielszmulewicz: https://github.com/myguidingstar/fence is pretty cool
22:16	danielszmulewicz	alandipert: Oh, thank you indeed, sir.
22:16	marshall	posting to the one route with cURL: http://pastebin.com/Rcf8VXex
22:19	danielcompton	fence (verb) - to put a̶ ̶f̶e̶n̶c̶e̶ parentheses around something
22:26	danielszmulewicz	alandipert: Is fence only for js property access or for all js interop?
22:27	alandipert	danielszmulewicz: i think it does everything, since everything desugars into dot. i haven’t used it myself tho, could be wrong
22:27	danielszmulewicz	alandipert: OK, I'll give it a try. Thanks.
22:28	danielszmulewicz	alandipert: it overloads .., and has no api, so it doesn't make sense in all forms.
22:28	danielszmulewicz	alandipert: But I might be wrong. I'll try.
22:29	alandipert	danielszmulewicz: check out the readme, it has things :-)
22:29	danielszmulewicz	alandipert: Yes, but that's the thing. The README is what confuses me. I'm looking at source code now.
22:31	alandipert	i think myguidingstar is even among us, perhaps he can illuminate
22:33	danielcompton	Where are you myguidingstar? Did you just vanish from sight, a comet passing in flight?
22:39	sdegutis	Why is it that ##(let [foo 3] (load-string "foo")) doesn't work?
22:39	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! load-string is bad!
22:40	sdegutis	Doesn't load-string evaluate it in the context of the calling function?
22:40	sdegutis	If not, is there a way to accomplish this?
22:41	TimMc	sdegutis: Locals are a lie.
22:41	danielcompton	,(def foo 3)
22:41	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foo
22:41	TimMc	The compiler checks where each local is going to be used and clears it after the last use.
22:42	danielcompton	,(load-string "foo")
22:42	clojurebot	3
22:42	sdegutis	Surely there has to be a way to do this without using def or with-redefs?
22:42	TimMc	You can inspect the lexical environment from inside a macro, but once your code is executing it's too late to dynamically refer to locals.
22:43	danielcompton	,(println "(inc danielcompton)")
22:43	clojurebot	(inc danielcompton)\n
22:43	danielcompton	foiled
22:43	TimMc	&(defmacro locals [] (keys &env))
22:43	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
22:43	TimMc	,(defmacro locals [] (keys &env))
22:43	clojurebot	#'sandbox/locals
22:43	sdegutis	danielcompton: lazybot ignores clojurebot
22:43	TimMc	,(let [a 1 b 2] (locals))
22:43	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
22:44	TimMc	eh, I don't remember
22:45	TimMc	,(defmacro locals [] (vec (keys &env)))
22:45	clojurebot	#'sandbox/locals
22:45	sdegutis	,locals
22:45	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't take value of a macro: #'sandbox/locals, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
22:45	sdegutis	,(locals)
22:45	clojurebot	[]
22:45	sdegutis	,(let [a 1 b 2] (locals))
22:45	clojurebot	nil
22:45	sdegutis	Haha
22:46	TimMc	,(defmacro locals [] (count (keys &env)))
22:46	clojurebot	#'sandbox/locals
22:46	TimMc	,(let [a 1 b 2] (locals))
22:46	clojurebot	2
22:47	TimMc	,(defmacro locals [] (vec (map keyword (keys &env))))
22:47	clojurebot	#'sandbox/locals
22:47	TimMc	,(let [a 1 b 2] (locals))
22:47	clojurebot	[:b :a]
22:47	TimMc	There, now I'm not trying to call (2 1) or (:b :a) :-P
22:48	sdegutis	Anyway, this still doesn't give load-string any access to them :/
22:48	TimMc	right, you'd need a macro to grab the locals ahead of time
22:48	sdegutis	Well I'm not even talking about from that side of the picture.
22:48	sdegutis	I want to have a way to "create" locals inside the environment being run by load-string.
22:50	TimMc	I don't know what that means and I'm going to bed.
22:50	TimMc	(I'm curious, but up late.)
22:50	sdegutis	:)
22:51	sdegutis	(with-vars-somehow {:foo 3} (load-string "foo"))
22:51	sdegutis	I want 3.
22:51	sdegutis	That's all :)
22:53	danielcompton	sdegutis: what if you built up your let as a string inside your load-string
22:53	sdegutis	danielcompton: What is this, SQL?
22:53	danielcompton	data is code, code is strings
22:54	sdegutis	What is this, Korma?
22:54	arrdem	danielcompton: pls don't go around telling people to eval strings. pls.
22:54	danielcompton	(inc sdegutis )
22:54	lazybot	⇒ 1
22:54	danielcompton	arrdem: I figured he was already at load-string by himself
22:55	danielcompton	sdegutis: in case my shudder wasn't clear, I don't think building up a let string is a good idea
22:56	myguidingstar	danielszmulewicz, danielcompton sorry, I'm back now
22:57	danielszmulewicz	myguidingstar: oh, the star we've been waiting for :-)
22:57	danielszmulewicz	myguidingstar: nice work on fence.
22:58	myguidingstar	can you restate the question?
22:58	sdegutis	Hmm, I can see building up a form with a combination of read-string and some semi-quotes, and then evaling it.
22:59	sdegutis	,(eval `(let [foo 3] ~(read-string "foo")))
22:59	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't let qualified name: sandbox/foo, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
22:59	myguidingstar	fence is a hack against Google closure compiler
22:59	sdegutis	,(eval `(let [foo# 3] ~(read-string "foo")))
22:59	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: foo in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
22:59	danielszmulewicz	myguidingstar: sure. Is it meant to be used for js property access only or all forms of js interop?
23:00	myguidingstar	danielszmulewicz, the example in README shows both property and method calls
23:00	sdegutis	,(eval `(let [foo# 3] ~(read-string "foo__793__auto__")))
23:00	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: foo__793__auto__ in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
23:00	sdegutis	lol
23:00	sdegutis	There /must/ be a way!
23:01	danielszmulewicz	myguidingstar: I don't understand the examples in the README.
23:01	sdegutis	z
23:02	myguidingstar	I'll update the README with technical details about the way Google Closure compiler renames symbols in advance optimization mode
23:02	danielszmulewicz	myguidingstar: the line "(->> (.. js/something -someAttributes aMethod (anotherMethod "arg1" "arg2"))
23:02	danielszmulewicz	(.log js/console))" has too much in it. It would be good if you can break it down, and explain how to go about the different type of js interop cases.
23:03	myguidingstar	without extern files, a.longName will be renamed
23:03	myguidingstar	while a['longName'] won't
23:03	danielszmulewicz	myguidingstar: I understand what it does.
23:03	danielszmulewicz	myguidingstar: I don't understand how to use it.
23:04	danielszmulewicz	myguidingstar: For example, I have (.bind js/Ladda) that I would like to use without externs.
23:04	danielszmulewicz	myguidingstar: what would be the syntaxt for this scenario?
23:04	danielszmulewicz	with fence, I mean.
23:04	myguidingstar	danielszmulewicz, two steps:
23:04	myguidingstar	1. refer to fence.core/.. in your ns form
23:05	myguidingstar	2. replace (.bind js/Ladda) with (.. js/Ladda bind)
23:05	danielszmulewicz	myguidingstar: Ah, now I get it.
23:06	myguidingstar	okay. Any suggestion for a better README? danielszmulewicz
23:07	danielszmulewicz	myguidingstar: Yes, but just to make it clear: when I do somewhere else (.. js/window -location -hostname), since .. is overladed, what happens?
23:07	myguidingstar	it works, of course ;)
23:08	danielszmulewicz	myguidingstar: OK, but symbols get renamed or not in this case?
23:09	myguidingstar	as long as you use fence.core/.., NO symbols get renamed ;)
23:10	myguidingstar	fence.core/.. use `aget` which produces javascript like window['location']['hostname']
23:10	danielszmulewicz	myguidingstar: Ah, so that's what I wanted to know.
23:11	myguidingstar	and Closure will optimize it to window.location.hostname, not window.a.b etc
23:11	danielszmulewicz	myguidingstar: OK, but then just let me clarify the next thing if you will.
23:11	myguidingstar	you're welcome
23:12	danielszmulewicz	myguidingstar: The "promise" of fence is that when the cljs compiler will provide the functionality required, you could remove the reference to fence and everything should work without modification, right?
23:13	myguidingstar	yes
23:13	danielcompton	welp http://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/status/#current
23:13	sdegutis	How do you do (load-reader) but don't evaluate it, just get a form back from it?
23:13	danielszmulewicz	myguidingstar: However (.. js/Ladda bind) should actually be (. js/Ladda bind) without fence. So how do you keep that "promise" as it were?
23:15	myguidingstar	danielszmulewicz, it's the cljs compiler responsibility now
23:17	danielszmulewicz	myguidingstar: I don't understand.
23:17	danielszmulewicz	myguidingstar: js interop for method invocation is one dot. With fence is two dots. How will you reconcile that?
23:19	myguidingstar	but .. just works, right? danielszmulewicz
23:20	myguidingstar	I tried to override ".", too but the cljs compiler doesn't allow that
23:20	danielszmulewicz	myguidingstar: .. is meant for nested property acccess. (.. js/object -prop1 -prop2 -prop3) ;; JS output: object.prop1.prop2.prop3;
23:21	danielszmulewicz	myguidingstar: it's not the same as one dot.
23:21	myguidingstar	and Clojure doesn't allow reader macros (which is good imo) so I can't change the way (.-something ...) behaves
23:21	myguidingstar	danielszmulewicz, but they're equivalent. Don't worry
23:23	myguidingstar	danielszmulewicz, I wish I could do that. See FAQ#3
23:26	danielszmulewicz	myguidingstar: OK. So I guess I need to test it and see it for myself.
23:27	danielszmulewicz	myguidingstar: I think you could break down the exaples in the README to clarify usage.
23:27	myguidingstar	yeah, I'm thinking of throwing away the console.log
23:27	myguidingstar	thanks
23:28	danielszmulewicz	myguidingstar: That (.method js/object) should be written (.. js/object method), and stuff like that.
23:28	myguidingstar	got it ^^
23:32	danielcompton	,(doc aget)
23:32	clojurebot	"([array idx] [array idx & idxs]); Returns the value at the index/indices. Works on Java arrays of all types."
23:33	danielszmulewicz	myguidingstar: In the README I would make extra clear that any usage with .. means no renaming, and also remind the option of using `aget to eschew fence in those cases.
23:33	danielcompton	Reading the docstring, I thought I could get it to return multiple values if I passed multiple indices.But it's actually for accessing sub-arrays. That was confusing to me, am I an outlier here?
23:35	myguidingstar	danielcompton, aget is a bit platform specific
23:35	danielcompton	myguidingstar: what does it do in cljs?
23:36	myguidingstar	in javascript, it just compiles to obj['prop-or-meth']
23:36	bbloom	myguidingstar: well it compiles to obj[...]
23:36	bbloom	it's not necessarily a string key
23:37	myguidingstar	yeah, string is in fence's case
23:47	arrdem	technomancy: late but ping
23:49	tsantero	pretty sure that ping timed out
23:49	arrdem	's fine