#clojure – 2014-11-04

2014-11-04

00:01	sm0ke	nestastubbs: it is a very interesting idea though
00:02	sm0ke	i think you need a parser which parses each key lazily
00:02	nestastubbs	you ever seen Ragel?
00:02	sm0ke	nope
00:03	sm0ke	but regex are also kind of state machines right?
00:03	nestastubbs	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragel
00:04	sm0ke	i dont see how it will help except from may be a very fast lexer
00:06	nestastubbs	it's overkill for this task
00:06	sm0ke	how about is cheshire return you a lazy map, and each key is parsed only upon first access
00:07	nestastubbs	nope
00:07	sm0ke	:)
00:07	nestastubbs	too complicated
00:08	sm0ke	yep too complicate for {"a": 1}
00:08	sm0ke	but for a json in gigbytes?
00:09	sm0ke	like the one you have
00:09	sm0ke	:P
00:09	nestastubbs	not gigabytes
00:09	nestastubbs	megabytes tho
00:09	nestastubbs	ok, I gota go to bed
00:09	nestastubbs	latah!
00:09	sm0ke	ok sleep on it
00:09	nestastubbs	thanks for noodling
00:33	ddellacosta	anyone in here used riemann? I'm having trouble getting it to pick up events. Using the 2.6 server and the clojure client
00:33	ddellacosta	just running it on 127.0.0.1
01:03	vIkSiT	hello all
01:03	vIkSiT	I forked a github project, and i want to use it with some changes using lein.
01:03	vIkSiT	so far, i use the [lib-v.0.0] in my project.clj
01:04	vIkSiT	how do I build this and use it using lein so that my user project points to the local version and not the one on clojars?
01:05	dgellow	today I learned: after having modified a defrecord, always run `lein clean` !
01:05	luxbock	vIkSiT: you can do `lein install' in the forked project directory and then use it normally through Leiningen
01:06	vIkSiT	luxbock, but lets say my project.clj contains [mylib-1.0.0-snapshot]
01:06	vIkSiT	if i do a lein install
01:07	vIkSiT	how does it know to pick up my version rather than the one in clojars?
01:07	luxbock	the dependencies are stored locally in ~/.m2
01:08	luxbock	so once you have it there then it leiningen won't need to find it from Clojars anymore
01:12	vIkSiT	ahh
01:12	vIkSiT	got it
01:12	vIkSiT	thanks luxbock
01:54	ddellacosta	argh, setting up riemann's dashboard is making me want to cry
01:54	ddellacosta	the docs are non-existent and/or wrong
01:55	kenrestivo	well, there's palet, puppet, jclouds...
01:56	bjeanes	Is there a way to do do a sort of "blocking pop" on a PersistentQueue? I'm can only see looping on a deref to wait for it to be non-empty but without doing that in a transaction it could still try to pop an empty queue. Either way, it kills the CPU. Should I just be using a java.util.concurrent.BlockingQueue instead?
01:56	amalloy	ddellacosta: try asking aphyr? he's not in here, but i think he's pretty responsive on twitter
01:56	bjeanes	I feel like... yes but want to make sure it's not just that I don't know how to think in PersistentQueues (as I've not used them properly)
01:56	ddellacosta	amalloy: yeah, I'll try that, thanks
01:57	amalloy	bjeanes: if you want a concurrent blocking mutable queue, j.u.c is pretty good for that. you can implement it in clojure as an atom around a queue in a much better way than you're suggesting, but there's no real need to
01:57	ddellacosta	kenrestivo: as far as I know riemann is doing different stuff than those
01:57	bjeanes	amalloy: cool, I'll go with the j.u.c but for my own curiosity/learning what should I read about or think about to do it with persistent queues?
01:59	ddellacosta	aha, breakthrough, apparently a "view" is the thing the instructions are written on
01:59	amalloy	bjeanes: well, you can avoid popping an empty queue by following the one rule of thread safety: make all important decisions inside of a swap! or a dosync. like, never ever write (if (seq @a) (pop @a)), because those aren't connected
02:00	amalloy	instead, swap! it with a function that checks if it's empty, and then if not pops it
02:00	amalloy	additionally, to avoid the spinlock, you can use watchers, such as with https://github.com/amalloy/useful/blob/develop/src/flatland/useful/state.clj#L54
02:02	amalloy	that wait-until doesn't enable you to modify it when a condition is met, but does let you block until that condition is met, at which point you can open a transaction (or a swap!) and double-check that it's still set, following the same suggestion about doing all the work inside a transaction
02:02	bjeanes	amalloy: thanks that helps. I am doing the pop inside the dosync but not the while loop. I forgot that transactions will all be attempted more or less simultaneously and was in my DB mind of "don't hold the transaction open".
02:02	amalloy	bjeanes: transactions are "free"
02:02	bjeanes	amalloy: ah perfect. I'll look at that a bit. I knew I was missing an ingredient (first time back in clojure for more than a year
02:03	bjeanes	amalloy: indeed. I recognized my mistaken thinking after my initial question
02:03	bjeanes	I haven't used watchers before so I think that was the missing piece in my approach
02:03	bjeanes	thanks!
02:06	bjeanes	amalloy: ah looked at your wait-until. The watch + promise delivery paints a complete picture now. Thank you
02:06	amalloy	bjeanes: you're welcome
02:32	ddellacosta	is there a better way to perform an action on a regular basis than to simply start a thread, and loop with Thread/sleep for the duration of time I want to wait?
02:34	Kneiva	ddellacosta: there is a scheduling library: https://github.com/clojurewerkz/quartzite.docs but that might be a bit heavy handed if your use case is that simple
02:35	ddellacosta	Kneiva: ah, yeah, I'm talking more about some simple monitoring activities. Actually we are already using quartzite for task scheduling (but stuff more like backups/regular data imports/etc.)
03:01	fairuz	Any Titan db users? I need some advice connecting to a remote titan db instance.
03:28	visof	hi guys
03:29	visof	what is the fastest way to get the last word from URL like http://hello-world.com/welcome/foo , i need to get foo?
03:29	visof	split and get last are going to be fast?
03:30	rweir	using an actual urlparser sounds like a better idea
03:32	visof	rweir: is there any suggestions for urlparser ?
03:40	amalloy	$google java.net.url
03:40	lazybot	[URL - Oracle Software Downloads] http://download.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/net/URL.html
03:41	amalloy	actually, didn't i write a $javadoc command? i no longer remember how to use it
03:41	Glenjamin	$help javadoc
03:41	lazybot	Glenjamin: Lookup Oracle's javadocs for a class. Input can be a fully qualified class name, a class name and a method/field, or a non-qualified class name.
03:41	amalloy	$javadoc java.net.URL
03:41	lazybot	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/net/URL.html
04:01	Glenjamin	anyone else find they always try and put the docstring after the arglist?
04:09	SagiCZ1	Glenjamin: i totally always do, and then get super confused
04:09	SagiCZ1	Glenjamin: it also feels weird i cant have separate docs for overloaded functions
04:10	cfleming	Glenjamin: Yeah, Eastwood has a warning about that, I'm going to add one to Cursive too.
04:10	cfleming	Glenjamin: I think it's pretty common.
04:10	SagiCZ1	cfleming: sweet!
04:11	SagiCZ1	btw cursive managed to kill my aero today, something that might be worth looking into
04:11	cfleming	Your aero?
04:11	SagiCZ1	cfleming: i will pm you
04:37	chatterbox	r
04:38	chatterbox	Oh! Sorry, for the mistaken "return" key in this window :)
04:39	sm0ke	i am looking for a simple embeddable java interop language where you can define a simple method, compile/interpret it, pass arguments and execute, get some meta like no. of arguments and return type. Any suggestions?
04:47	zot	where can i publicly lament that (imho) string/split arguments are incorrectly ordered? :)
04:47	mavbozo	zot: what should the order be?
04:48	zot	the pattern feels like it is an action function, a la f in map, filter :) and semantically, then you can do things like (partial string/split #"\n") to get a line splitter
04:49	zot	(instead of having to use an anon func or something else)
04:49	zot	i just want a ballot box to say it out loud, with full awareness that it's been this way for 5 years, and won't be changing any time soon :)
04:54	clgv	zot: well obviously the devs do not thing a string is a sequence or collection - that's very likely the reason for the order
04:55	clgv	zot: since this is a breaking change with almost no benefit your chances to get it changed approach zero
04:55	clgv	*think
04:56	zot	clgv: fair point, re seq - although (count) works against it. and i know it won't change, as said above.
04:56	clgv	zot: count works since string can be considered as seqable similar to maps
04:58	zot	is there an important semantic difference between seqable and sequence? this sounds different than what you mentioned above…
04:59	clgv	zot: yeah, seqable means that you can use `seq` to convert the thing into a sequence
04:59	clgv	but it is not a clojure sequence in the first place
05:00	clgv	,(seq "Hello")
05:00	clojurebot	(\H \e \l \l \o)
05:00	clgv	,(seq? "Hello")
05:00	clojurebot	false
05:00	hyPiRion	,(sequential? "foo")
05:00	clojurebot	false
05:00	hyPiRion	oh gurr.
05:01	zot	clgv: cool, thanks. learned my new thing for the day :)
05:01	hyPiRion	You want seqable?, which isn't in core afaik
05:01	clgv	hyPiRion: we do not need to query it? he just wanted to know the difference
05:01	clgv	-?
05:13	phillord	hmmm
05:13	phillord	(.isAssignableFrom java.util.Set clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet)
05:13	phillord	,(.isAssignableFrom java.util.Set clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet)
05:13	clojurebot	true
05:13	phillord	,(.isAssignableFrom java.util.Set clojure.lang.IPersistentSet)
05:13	clojurebot	false
05:14	phillord	which is strange -- the implementation class implements the interface
05:14	phillord	but the two interfaces do not extend each other
05:14	phillord	is this not strange?
05:15	phillord	or is it just me?
05:15	martinklepsch	what do people think of boot? I was sceptic the first time I saw it but I begin to see a use for it when it comes to application development
05:26	ssideris	martinklepsch: what is boot?
05:26	martinklepsch	ssideris: ah sorry — boot: Build tooling for Clojure. — https://github.com/boot-clj/boot
05:31	clgv	martinklepsch: good question. its announcement suggested that the leiningen way for CLJS is problematic - is that really the case?
05:31	ssideris	martinklepsch: looks interesting, thanks
05:33	perplexa	hmm use people vim-slime or vim-fireplace? ;x
05:35	perplexa	also, nikuse is a spambot :P
05:59	zarkone	hello all! I want to try the clojure language (just curious and to compare with cl). ButI havesome doubts.. It works on top of JVM and i'm afraid I have to understand what's inside of it. Is it true, and give
05:59	zarkone
05:59	zarkone	me someadvicesabout how tobegin
05:59	zarkone	thanks
06:00	zarkone	*to begin with JVM, i mean. May be some books or articles..
06:01	cbryan	joyofclojure.com/ is a very good book
06:05	zarkone	cbryan: thank you!
06:16	donbonifacio	talking about books, I've read the programming clojure. Any suggestions on more advanced books?
06:17	clgv	donbonifacio: joy of clojure
06:18	donbonifacio	nice :) thanks clgv
06:18	mmeix	short question: the use case for "delay" is for a (expensive) computation, which I'm not sure I'll need - correct?
06:20	mmeix	(only computed if needed by derefing)
06:20	clgv	mmeix: or deferred calculation, you have multiple threads potentially needing the result of a particular calculation but it shall be calculated only once and you do not care who calculates it
06:21	clgv	mmeix: it is used in core.cache afair
06:21	mmeix	ah! didn't consider multiple threads - thanks!
06:21	mmeix	so it really makes sense only for longer calculations
06:22	mmeix	I guess
06:22	mmeix	in the case of single thread
06:22	mmeix	got it
06:23	clgv	mmeix: not necessarily, in case of core.cache aka advanced memoize some computations might be quick as well
06:24	mmeix	ok
06:24	mmeix	thanks!
06:25	clgv	mmeix: resource loading into a map of resources might be a use case as well, you want to load that resource only once
07:24	visof	hi
07:24	visof	i'm running my app using lein ring server, but it's running forever at specific ns, how can i deal with this?
07:24	visof	and what is best fastest way to debug this?
07:25	weavejester	You mean the ns isn’t loading?
07:27	visof	weavejester: i got compiling foo.clj
07:27	visof	but don't terminated
07:27	visof	and when i try to load in repl i got repl timeout
07:28	visof	weavejester: what do you think ?
07:28	weavejester	visof: It sounds like you have an infinite loop in your namespace, or something else that’s blocking
07:29	weavejester	visof: The easiest way to debug it is to remove everything from the ns, then add things back in until you hit the error again
07:29	weavejester	visof: Or look for anything that isn’t a “def” or “defn”
07:29	weavejester	Or anything potentially side-effectful
07:39	clgv	weavejester: visof: "(def ...)" is problematic as well
07:41	weavejester	clgv: Yeah, if it’s connected to something that could block.
07:50	kungi	I have the symbol of a namespace in a variable. Can I somehow call a function in this namespace through the variable?
07:54	clgv	kungi: yeah require the namespace with the symbol, build a symbol of the function, resolve the function symbol, get the function via var-get and call it
07:55	clgv	,clojure.string/join
07:55	clojurebot	#<string$join clojure.string$join@1a7d91c>
07:56	clgv	damn it is required.
07:56	clgv	,clojure.java.io/file
07:56	clojurebot	#<io$file clojure.java.io$file@1daf1cd>
07:56	clgv	:(
07:56	clgv	ok no demonstration here ,)
07:56	clgv	,(-> 'clojure.java.io resolve var-get)
07:56	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.java.io>
07:56	clgv	,(-> 'clojure.java.io/file resolve var-get)
07:56	clojurebot	#<io$file clojure.java.io$file@1daf1cd>
07:57	clgv	kungi: ^^
07:57	neena	((eval (symbol (.getNamespace the-symbol) "myfunction")) arguments)
07:57	clgv	neena: no please dont. thats absolutely not necessary
07:58	kungi	clgv: like this: (defn fn-in-ns [ns function]
07:58	kungi	(var-get (resolve (symbol (str ns "/" function)))))
07:58	clgv	,((-> 'clojure.java.io/file resolve var-get) "foo.txt)
07:58	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading string>
07:58	clgv	,((-> 'clojure.java.io/file resolve var-get) "foo.txt")
07:58	clojurebot	#<File foo.txt>
07:58	clgv	,(symbol "clojure.java.io" "file")
07:58	clojurebot	clojure.java.io/file
07:59	clgv	kungi: ^^
08:00	neena	clgv: i guess you can replace eval with (comp var-get resolve)
08:01	clgv	neena: you definitel should
08:09	visof	how can i replace all "\"\'" in a string with nothing?
08:09	visof	,(clojure.string/replace "\"\'" "\"" "")
08:09	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unsupported escape character: \'>
08:09	visof	,(clojure.string/replace "\"\'" #"\"" "")
08:09	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unsupported escape character: \'>
08:09	visof	,(clojure.string/replace "\"\" #"\"" "")
08:09	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading string>
08:09	visof	,(clojure.string/replace "\"\" "\"" "")
08:09	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading string>
08:09	visof	,(clojure.string/replace "\"\'" "\"" "")
08:09	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unsupported escape character: \'>
08:10	visof	,(clojure.string/replace "\"'" "\"" "")
08:10	clojurebot	"'"
08:12	clgv	visof: don't you own a private repl? :P
08:12	visof	clgv: sorry
08:13	clgv	,(re-pattern "\\\"")
08:13	clojurebot	#"\""
08:13	clgv	visof: that's the reason ^^
08:14	clgv	clojure's reg exps have a shortcut for less escaping then you'd need with strings
08:17	mavbozo	why when dealing with java, i encounter lots of byte, byte array, byte stream? seems too low level for a language such as java
08:20	clgv	mavbozo: that strongly depends what kind of projects you are looking at
08:22	visof	what is the best way to deal with text data which has unsupported chars in clojure?
08:22	visof	if i do somethign like (str "\xea") i got RuntimeException Unsupported character:
08:23	clgv	visof: no you get an error because that escape "\e" is unknown
08:24	clgv	,(str (char 0xEA))
08:24	visof	clgv: yeah but suppose i'm reading a strange content of webpage and want to escape all the \ to convert it to a string to can deal with in clojure
08:24	clojurebot	"ê"
08:24	clgv	visof: ^^
08:24	visof	clgv: i mean the data from the webpage already has unknown things like \xaea \cvf \adfdf so how can i escape them?
08:24	clgv	you could replace all "\eXX" with result of the function above ;)
08:25	clgv	ah not repair them?
08:25	visof	clgv: i don't even know what are the chars should i escape ?
08:25	clgv	visof: if you them as text why do you need to escape them?
08:25	visof	clgv: i don't repair just escape them to handle them after that
08:26	visof	clgv: because it's not a valid string
08:26	visof	i need to read them as valid string
08:26	dysfun	hi all. is there any good library for building indexes into data? i've got some data that fits in memory, so it makes sense to keep it there
08:26	clgv	if I read in "\xea" from some external source I get "\\xea"
08:26	clgv	internally
08:27	clgv	you are something that causes the need to escape those
08:27	clgv	+doing
08:28	clgv	dysfun: for one attribute?
08:28	dysfun	ideally supporting more complex operations
08:29	dysfun	i would like to build computed indices that may operate over multiple attributes
08:30	clgv	ok. well no idea
08:30	dysfun	heh
08:30	clgv	dysfun: might be you end up with a databased solution anyway...
08:30	clgv	does sqlite offer sophisticated indices?
08:31	dysfun	since it all fits in memory and i don't have budget for datomic, it seems daft to use a database
08:31	clgv	I would never recommend datomic to you ;)
08:31	dysfun	heh. it's nice, but i will never have budget for datomic :)
08:31	clgv	sqlite is a in-memory db, so if you dont find anything else it might be the easiest way
08:32	dysfun	nod
08:32	dysfun	thanks
08:52	dysfun	is there a datatype that looks like a promise, but might cover something that goes away and attempting to use it will trigger eg. a socket connection? i think promises can only be delivered once?
08:52	dysfun	an atom and a promise would do it, but it seems like a simple thing
08:53	dysfun	well, maybe not the autoconnecting when accessing, happy for that to be done elsewhere
08:53	hyPiRion	You can implement a record which implements IDeref for stuff like that
08:54	dysfun	hrm, interesting idea
08:55	hyPiRion	,'(@hello)
08:55	clojurebot	((clojure.core/deref hello))
08:55	hyPiRion	@ is just sugar for deref
08:55	dysfun	yeah, i use it
09:07	clgv	+1 for IDeref
09:56	clgv	,(read-string "@hello")
09:56	clojurebot	(clojure.core/deref hello)
09:56	clgv	hyPiRion: to demonstrate the reader macro expansion ^^
09:56	hyPiRion	yeah
10:04	gfredericks	,'@hello
10:04	clojurebot	(clojure.core/deref hello)
10:05	gfredericks	,'@@@@@@@@@hello
10:05	clojurebot	(clojure.core/deref (clojure.core/deref (clojure.core/deref (clojure.core/deref (clojure.core/deref (clojure.core/deref (clojure.core/deref (clojure.core/deref (clojure.core/deref hello)))))))))
10:06	hyPiRion	,````hi
10:06	clojurebot	(clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list (quote clojure.core/seq)) (clojure.core/list (clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list (quote clojure.core/concat)) (clojure.core/list (clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list (quote clojure.core/list)) (clojure.core/list (clojure.core/seq #))))) (clojure.core/list (clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clo...
10:08	csd_	what level of of proficiency would someone need to demonstrate to get a junior dev job in clojure (assuming you can find a company using clojure ;) )
10:12	dysfun	that very much depends on the company
10:17	craigglennie	Anyone have a problem with Cursive not letting you put parens where you want to?
10:17	craigglennie	I’m trying to close a function and it either just won’t insert the paren, or it jumps into a comment block
10:18	justin_smith	craigglennie: is cursive's version of paredit turned on?
10:19	clgv	craigglennie: try hitting ESC and then the paren to insert it out of scrope of paredit?
10:19	clgv	or maybe that is bound to a different key
10:19	karls	hey guys, a slightly hand-wavy question. i'm trying to write a sort of helper library that covers plumbing and some common patterns for our worker system at work. i'm finding it hard to not fall into the inheritance-style OO thinking. are there any rules of thumb for how to structure such a library?
10:19	jackjames	craigglennie: it's in the lower right corner, where it says "Stuctural: On". you can click that to toggle it off
10:20	craigglennie	jackjames: That did it, thanks
10:20	karls	i'm experimenting with component atm, but just want to see if there are alternative approaches before i dive too deeply into one it
10:20	clgv	karls: hand-wavy answer: think in data and functions manipulating the data
10:20	justin_smith	karls: instead of inheriting, define a protocol or multimethod and have things implement that
10:20	craigglennie	Structural == paredit in Cursive?
10:21	clgv	karls: humm do you really need "component" if that is a library for some task? afaik "component" is built to organize systems and the dependencies between their components
10:21	clgv	craigglennie: probably yes
10:21	karls	clgv: justin_smith, that's what i'm trying to do, just finding it difficult. the particular use case is to have rabbitmq and postgres connections set up, logging, and other such "plumbing".
10:22	karls	clgv: yeah, that was my original thinking. the readme does have a section on this as well
10:22	justin_smith	karls: in my experience that isn't something complex in clojure
10:22	justin_smith	unless you are doing something weird
10:22	clgv	karls: well your last description sounds as if you could use components for rabbitmq and postgres each
10:23	karls	i'm a bit confused as to whether or not setting everything up "behind the scenes" is the clojure way.
10:23	karls	indeed, and i have an example component for rabbitmq, and that seems to work fine
10:23	clgv	karls: no you set up things in clojure explicitely, not behind the scenes
10:24	justin_smith	karls: with immutibility you don't really need data hiding
10:24	karls	the essential reason for this is that i ideally wouldn't like to keep track of config opts, "instantiation" of connections etc for every single worker individually..
10:25	karls	hence trying to think about how to make it a bit more straightforward to write workers that connect to rabbitmq and postgres/redis/whathaveyou
10:25	karls	(avoiding copy-pasting)
10:26	clgv	huh? where should the config opts come from?
10:27	karls	for dev - project.clj atm, for prod - env variables or a config file? i'm not too sure yet
10:27	karls	but just writing it down it already feels like an overkill...
10:27	justin_smith	karls: a nice approach is to have a different config.edn file to load for each environment (guided by a system property telling you which one to load)
10:27	clgv	In one of my projects I use config files but they are generated from GUI input.
10:29	clgv	for example for a distributed communication I have (create-client config-url) which returns a "client" deftype which can be passed around where communication is needed
10:29	karls	justin_smith, clgv okay
10:30	karls	clgv: and it sits in a var at the top level?
10:30	karls	justin_smith, clgv, thanks for your input. i think i was waayy overthinking this.
10:30	justin_smith	karls: in practice all vars are top level, def can only make globals
10:30	clgv	karls: no, it is called in the "-main" function and then passed to the functions that need it
10:31	mmeix_	just found Gorilla REPL, which could serve as a music notebook with clojure, if I manage to write a custom renderer for music snippets for it - doesn't seem to hard on first sight ... someone here tried Gorilla REPL? http://gorilla-repl.org/index.html
10:31	karls	clgv: got it.
10:32	karls	justin_smith, clgv, cheers!
10:32	justin_smith	mmeix_: gorilla can use LaTeX right?
10:32	mmeix_	yes
10:32	justin_smith	mmeix_: if so, lilypond is amazing
10:32	justin_smith	and it has scheme bindings to all its internals
10:33	mmeix_	yes, I know lilypond quite well
10:33	justin_smith	cool :)
10:33	mmeix_	went trough a couple of music typesetting systems
10:33	mmeix_	lilypond is one of the best
10:34	mmeix_	problem is: it's not possible to run on a server
10:34	mmeix_	which is the usage I'm looking after
10:34	mmeix_	looking for
10:34	mmeix_	(sorry for non-native English)
10:35	mmeix_	I'm planning a web service in the long run
10:35	justin_smith	why not install lilypond on the server? most servers run linux
10:35	mmeix_	for our Music University
10:35	justin_smith	oh, they have a specific setup
10:35	mmeix_	I need user interactivity
10:35	mmeix_	and that is not something easily to get in lilypond
10:35	justin_smith	mmeix_: I was imagining lilypond as a rendering backend
10:36	mmeix_	people tried that
10:36	justin_smith	so interact with gorilla repl, call some scheme code or generate lilypond input...
10:36	mmeix_	but obviously this didn't work out well
10:36	justin_smith	maybe that's too complex
10:36	mmeix_	yes, I think so
10:37	mmeix_	I tried some simple things myself with SVG, which is easy to manage with hiccup or so
10:37	mmeix_	I would inly have to write my own notation engine
10:37	mmeix_	:-)
10:37	justin_smith	analemma is nice for generating svg
10:38	mmeix_	(googling analemma)
10:38	justin_smith	mmeix_: that doesn't sound simpler than using lilypond to me, but it's your call
10:38	mmeix_	I don't see a way to get lilypond interactive easily: it's heavily text based
10:39	mmeix_	so one would need to write a whole handling library
10:39	justin_smith	my point is that your code can generate data that is fed to lilypond
10:39	mmeix_	I see
10:39	justin_smith	it has a lisp in the background, you can use data structures to generate its input
10:40	justin_smith	for example I know rosegarden does this (linux composition program)
10:40	mmeix_	I need an interface, where the user can drag a note directly, and I'm not sure how this would work with e server backend
10:40	justin_smith	ahh yeah - that's another thing entirely, you are right
10:40	mmeix_	I had tha idea to use Noteflight for this
10:41	justin_smith	maybe once everything in place make a pretty lilypond version - but for user interaction something uglier but more drag and drop friendly
10:41	justin_smith	there is vexflow http://www.vexflow.com/
10:41	mmeix_	ja, know that: in my opinion it's too naive in some aspects, musically
10:42	justin_smith	OK
10:42	mmeix_	I have very long and extensive experience with music setting applications
10:43	mmeix_	it's not an easy task, yes
10:44	mmeix_	but I guess, for my Eartraining app it doesn't need to be of the highest sophistication (only 1-2 lines of music, reduced polyphony)
10:44	mmeix_	so maybe I can SVG something myself
10:45	mmeix_	and just found, that Gorilla REPL allows integration of DIY renderers
10:45	mmeix_	so I'll try that
10:46	mmeix_	could be a nice workflow: building music structures in clojure with a growing renderer function
10:47	mmeix_	highly optimistic, of course ;-)
10:47	mmeix_	but Clojure lends itself to music (like its creator...)
10:48	mmeix_	(looking at Analemma...)
10:50	mmeix_	ah, that's great: they divided it into three layers, xml, svg, charting
10:50	mmeix_	something to learn from
10:51	mmeix_	thanks for the hint!
10:52	lazylambda	folks, is there a way to treat the comma as a symbol instead of whitespace?
10:52	hiredman	nope
10:53	mmeix_	what for?
10:55	lazylambda	it's not a big deal. I was working on django project for work and I wanted to sort some imported constants to shut up flake8. I sorted them in the clojure repl, and after that I wanted to interleave the sorted list with (repeat ',) so I could just copy and paste the output into my python code without having to manually insert commas
10:55	lazylambda	that's why I was wondering if it's possible to quote comma
10:56	mmeix_	wouldn't interpose work for that?
10:56	mmeix_	(if a string output would work)
10:57	clgv	lazylambda: why not print what you want to export? e.g. (println "[" (str/join ", " coll) "]")
10:57	cbryan	,(symbol ",")
10:57	clojurebot	,
10:58	cbryan	,(take 10 (repeat (symbol ",")))
10:58	clojurebot	(, , , , , ...)
10:58	cbryan	yeah?
10:58	mmeix_	,(interpose "," (range 9))
10:58	clojurebot	(0 "," 1 "," 2 ...)
10:58	clgv	,(require '[clojure.string :as str])
10:58	clojurebot	nil
10:59	lazylambda	cbryan: YES.. that's it.
10:59	clgv	,(println "[" (str/join ", " (range 10) "]")
10:59	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
10:59	cbryan	,(interpose (symbol ",") (range 9))
10:59	clojurebot	(0 , 1 , 2 ...)
10:59	cbryan	;)
10:59	lazylambda	clgv: printing would have been a good option as well
10:59	mmeix_	,(apply str (interpose "," (range 9)))
10:59	clojurebot	"0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8"
10:59	clgv	,(println "[" (str/join ", " (range 10)) "]")
10:59	clojurebot	[ 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ]\n
11:00	mmeix_	(mmeix just learned to use the clojurebot :)
11:00	clgv	mmeix_: thats exactly str/join :P
11:00	clgv	but less efficient ;)
11:00	mmeix_	ah, ok
11:00	cbryan	psh. clever code above clear code!
11:00	mmeix_	(back to learner's seat ;)
11:00	justin_smith	$source clojure.string/join
11:00	lazybot	clojure.string/join is http://is.gd/aOFm5m
11:01	justin_smith	cbryan: well as that link from lazybot will show, in clojure core it is fast code above clear code :)
11:01	clgv	justin_smith: not always ;)
11:02	justin_smith	fair enough - but it's a definite pattern
11:02	lazylambda	,"test the bot"
11:02	clojurebot	"test the bot"
11:03	lazylambda	,(+ 1 2 3)
11:03	clojurebot	6
11:03	justin_smith	don't forget to ##(str "test the other bot")
11:03	lazybot	⇒ "test the other bot"
11:03	clgv	justin_smith: uh he is around.
11:03	lazylambda	lol, who's the other bot?
11:03	kenrestivo	is there a way to force transitive aot, like, all of clojure.core ?
11:04	cbryan	,(print (str "hmmm" '##(str "test the other bot")))
11:04	lazybot	⇒ "test the other bot"
11:04	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Reader tag must be a symbol>
11:04	cbryan	oops
11:04	clgv	kenrestivo: isnt that AOTed already?
11:04	cbryan	does lazybot respond to clojurebot? >:)
11:04	cbryan	and vice versa?
11:04	justin_smith	cbryan: there was, in times of legend, a bot-quine
11:04	clgv	kenrestivo: otherwise just specify #"clojure\.core.*" in your project.clj
11:04	kenrestivo	clgv: nope
11:04	cbryan	oh, but the arrow would stop that
11:04	cbryan	justin_smith: haha
11:05	justin_smith	cbryan: this forced some changes, as you could imagine
11:05	kenrestivo	hmm, doesn't :aot :all do that?
11:05	clgv	cbryan: not blacklisting. they did in the past ;)
11:05	kenrestivo	because, it isn't. i guess i could try :aot #"." ?
11:05	clgv	s/not/no./
11:06	clgv	kenrestivo: see above ;)
11:06	clgv	kenrestivo: this a not a valid pattern ###".
11:06	clgv	kenrestivo: this a not a valid pattern ##(identity #".)
11:06	clgv	,#"."
11:06	clojurebot	#<NoClassDefFoundError java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: Could not initialize class java.util.regex.PatternSyntaxException>
11:06	cbryan	,#"\."
11:06	clojurebot	#<NoClassDefFoundError java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: Could not initialize class java.util.regex.PatternSyntaxException>
11:06	kenrestivo	,(re-find #"\." "foo.bar")
11:06	clojurebot	#<NoClassDefFoundError java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: Could not initialize class java.util.regex.PatternSyntaxException>
11:07	clgv	no. the star in the beginning is wrong ;)
11:07	cbryan	oh, oops
11:07	kenrestivo	,(re-find #"\.*" "foo")
11:07	clojurebot	""
11:07	clgv	,(re-find #"clojure\.core.*" "clojure.core.reducers")
11:07	clojurebot	"clojure.core.reducers"
11:08	clgv	,(loaded-libs)
11:08	clojurebot	#{clojure.core.protocols clojure.instant clojure.java.io clojure.repl clojure.string ...}
11:08	mmeix_	BTW, I need to translate a XML-file into a csv - only once - somebody has a quick tip for that?
11:08	clgv	,(->> (loaded-libs) (map name) (filter #(re-find #"clojure\.core.*" %)))
11:08	clojurebot	("clojure.core.protocols")
11:08	kenrestivo	,(re-find #"\." "any.damn.namespace")
11:08	clojurebot	"."
11:09	cbryan	,(re-find #".\.." "any.damn.namespace")
11:09	clojurebot	"any.damn.namespace"
11:09	clgv	mmeix_: XSLT?
11:09	justin_smith	mmeix_: clojure.data.xml and clojure.data.csv both exist
11:09	mmeix_	justin_smith thanks
11:10	mmeix_	(inc clgv)
11:10	lazybot	⇒ 34
11:10	mmeix_	(inc justin_smith)
11:10	lazybot	⇒ 115
11:10	mmeix_	for continued help :)
11:13	dysfun	does anyone know how clojure performance is on android?
11:13	tbaldridge	clojurebot: clojure performance android?
11:13	clojurebot	Huh?
11:13	tbaldridge	exactly....
11:13	dysfun	remarkably helpful...
11:14	tbaldridge	dysfun: from what I understand, it works, and isn't bad once it's loaded, but it does take some time to load
11:14	dysfun	hrm, that could be acceptable
11:15	nathanic	i would think that the extra GC pressure from clojure's (otherwise wonderful) persistent data structures would be pretty noticable on android
11:15	csd_	does riddley walk from inside out or from outside in?
11:16	nathanic	but i've so far been scared off by reports of many-second loading times
11:16	tbaldridge	dysfun: http://nicholaskariniemi.github.io/2014/03/12/clojure-android-startup-benchmarks.html
11:16	clgv	dysfun: you could go the clojurescript way for android though. there are js containers to write apps with js
11:16	ToxicFrog	I've been kicking around the idea of using Chrome Apps on Android and cljs to deploy that way, but haven't actually tested it yet.
11:16	dysfun	umm, why is ART startup so long? I thought it AOT-compiled everything?
11:17	tbaldridge	dysfun: yeah, I've done that several times and CLJS works really well...
11:17	dysfun	actually this way to get around having to do something that works on javascript
11:17	tbaldridge	dysfun: it does, but you still have to init clojure/lang/rt.java and that takes time
11:17	dysfun	yeah, but it takes more time :)
11:18	clgv	the nexus 7 is slower than the 5?
11:18	kenrestivo	i found performance of clojure on android to be not much different than performance of android on android
11:18	tbaldridge	dysfun: there's been some work done around startup time that was slated for 1.7, not sure if it's going to get into 1.7 though due to transducers.
11:18	clgv	interesting product strategy ;)
11:19	kenrestivo	then again i'm not doing anything terribly tight-loopy, it's all just gui stuff and calling android services
11:20	kenrestivo	and... it is worlds more fun than trying to deal with the android toolkit in native java. also too, repl.
11:20	dysfun	i don't mind waiting for cool stuff :)
11:21	cbryan	"i'm not doing anything terribly tight-loopy" famous last words
11:21	cbryan	;)
11:21	dysfun	also "my dataset is quite small"
11:21	eric_normand	good morning folks!
11:21	kenrestivo	hah, well not on that platform. i will soon be doing tight-loopy stuff on a different embeedded arm platform, and i'm ready to offloa it to c if needed
11:22	cbryan	(inc dysfun)
11:22	lazybot	⇒ 1
11:22	eric_normand	anybody get tikkba to work on heroku?
11:22	eric_normand	I think it's an openjdk issue
11:22	dysfun	i'm intrigued by the idea of a repl running on my device as part of the app during dev though
11:23	eric_normand	says that this class is not found: com.sun.image.codec.jpeg.TruncatedFileException
11:24	kenrestivo	dysfun: http://github.com/kenrestivo/spazradioapp first and only (so far) clojure android thing i've done, it was fun
11:24	justin_smith	eric_normand: I have used tikka with openjdk
11:24	eric_normand	justin_smith: with no problem?
11:24	dysfun	kenrestivo: sweet, thanks :)
11:24	justin_smith	eric_normand: but the jvm is silly and thinks that headless = nothing that uses images
11:25	justin_smith	eric_normand: so if they have the "headless" jdk and that can be a problem
11:25	justin_smith	eric_normand: the idea that the ability to composite an image and the ability to show one in a GUI are tied is absurd, but it is the case :(
11:25	eric_normand	justin_smith: so what to do?
11:25	engblom	On Linux, what is the best way for reading a mouse device? Assume you have several mice and each one of them will control things (and not the cursor on screen). /dev/input/MouseN is producing a C-struct.
11:26	eric_normand	justin_smith: google is not giving me a good solution
11:26	justin_smith	eric_normand: make sure you are not using a headless jvm - I don't know how this is done on heroku
11:26	justin_smith	eric_normand: technomancy may have some inner heroku insight though
11:26	cbryan	engblom: you mean read it in clojure? or just in general?
11:27	justin_smith	engblom: use the .h file to make a parser, it is a simple and stable data
11:27	justin_smith	engblom: it sucks to do it by hand, but it isn't a large thing (I have done it before) and you only need to do it once
11:27	engblom	cbryan: Reading it in Clojure... This is a clojure channel after all :)
11:28	justin_smith	engblom: we have great tools for parsing binary data packets by the way - like that one from ztellman
11:28	justin_smith	https://github.com/ztellman/gloss
11:29	csd_	Is there an equivalent of `lein clean` for cider-nrepl?
11:29	csd_	Its getting borkedup by an old package it seems
11:29	engblom	justin_smith: Sounds interresting
11:30	justin_smith	engblom: there is also the possibility of using java.awt of course
11:30	justin_smith	but in my experience the linux mouse device is very easy to access and use
11:31	justin_smith	and bonus, when you use the device and not awt, you don't need a window open, and you get all events (well for me this was a bonus...)
11:37	technomancy	eric_normand: I don't know the solution for this, but we just hired someone specifically to own JVM issues; if you open a support ticket he could probably point you in the right direction
11:38	eric_normand	technomancy: thanks
11:39	mnngfltg	Can I somehow refer to the name of a `let` binding from inside the same `let`? This won't work: https://www.refheap.com/92702 (Unable to resolve symbol: power-set* in this context)
11:39	tbaldridge	mnngfltg: name the function
11:39	tbaldridge	mnngfltg: (fn power-set* [xs] ...)
11:39	csd_	not within the same binding. only a different binding, below the first
11:39	justin_smith	mnngfltg: or letfn
11:39	mnngfltg	tbaldridge, then the function calls are not cached
11:39	Bronsa	tbaldridge: that would not pass through the memoize
11:40	Bronsa	mnngfltg: as letfn should work
11:40	tbaldridge	ah right, missed the memoize. yeah, use letfn
11:40	Bronsa	*as justin_smith said
11:41	phillord	Is there a good way to see what Clojure things the type is of a particular entity
11:41	justin_smith	type
11:41	justin_smith	,(type nil)
11:41	clojurebot	nil
11:41	justin_smith	,(type {:a 0})
11:41	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
11:41	phillord	sorry, meant at compile time
11:41	mnngfltg	I thought of letfn, but it doesn't take a function as a value (as `let`) but a function definition
11:42	phillord	I am getting a reflection warning from a call which looks like (.method (set properties))
11:42	justin_smith	,(type (with-meta {:a 0} {:type "foo"}))
11:42	clojurebot	"foo"
11:42	phillord	and it complains that it doesn't know the type of the call
11:42	justin_smith	phillord: (.method ^the.Class (set properties))
11:42	kenrestivo	for the record, :uberjar {:aot [#"\."] :omit-source true}} did what i wanted
11:43	Bronsa	mnngfltg: ah right, uhm there might be someting in useful for this, let me check
11:43	justin_smith	mnngfltg: ahh, right
11:43	phillord	the method signature is .method(java.util.Set)
11:43	phillord	it should just work
11:43	mnngfltg	by the way, I can't use `def` because 4clojure won't let me :)
11:44	justin_smith	(fn memoized [args] ((fn inner [x] ... (memoized y)) args))
11:44	Bronsa	mnngfltg: well the hacky way is to use a promise
11:44	justin_smith	(fn memoized [args] ((memoize (fn inner [x] ... (memoized y))) args))
11:44	justin_smith	that is
11:45	justin_smith	or wait, that creates a new memo on each call doesn't it? no good
11:45	mnngfltg	justin_smith, but that will create a new cache every time, which defeates the purpose
11:45	justin_smith	right
11:45	tbaldridge	forget this stupid immutability, it only causes problems...I'm going back to Python
11:46	noonian	lol
11:46	mnngfltg	tbaldridge, heh
11:46	Bronsa	mnngfltg: (let [f (promise) your-f (memoize (fn [] .. (@f ..))) _ (deliver f your-f)] ..) not pretty but should work
11:46	tbaldridge	(inc Bronsa)
11:46	lazybot	⇒ 67
11:48	mnngfltg	Bronsa, very nice :)
11:48	justin_smith	(inc Bronsa)
11:48	lazybot	⇒ 68
11:48	justin_smith	I find myself solving more and more things with promises
11:49	justin_smith	,(deliver (promise) ()) ; an empty promise
11:49	clojurebot	#<core$promise$reify__6499@1766b1e: ()>
11:49	cbryan	ba-dum-tsh :p
11:51	mnngfltg	I'll sleep on it.
11:52	mnngfltg	There's gotta be a better algorithm for calculating the powerset which doesn't require memoization :)
11:52	justin_smith	yeah, memoizing a powerset is going to use a lot of heap
11:58	Bronsa	phillord: I just replied to your thread on the ML, the answer to your question is that clojure.core/set is not type hinted
11:59	csd_	I'm trying my hand at writing my first macro and am running into trouble.. I just want a macro that expands into Compojure's destructuring syntax. So the macro is just (defmacro foo {{x :x} :y}); and I'm trying to insert it into {{existing :binding} :baz} ~@foo}. I'm running into errors though so I'm curious if I'm doing something that's not possible since I know that the syntax I'm working with is itself nonstandard
11:59	gfredericks	macros need an arg list
11:59	csd_	ah
11:59	gfredericks	so (defmacro foo {{x :x} :y}) doesn't make any more sense than (defn foo {{x :x} :y})
11:59	technomancy	maybe your macros do gee fredericks
12:00	cbryan	write a macro that defines a macro without an arglist
12:00	cbryan	duh
12:00	weavejester	macros are just functions which have their return values evaled instead of their arguments.
12:00	Bronsa	weavejester: that's a nice way to explain it
12:01	cbryan	technomancy: eric_normand had a heroku question (he might have solved it)
12:01	cbryan	well, clojure question relevant to heroku ;)
12:01	technomancy	cbryan: yeah, I handed him off to our jvm guy
12:02	cbryan	cool cool
12:02	phillord	@Bronsa okay
12:02	phillord	that's confusing
12:04	csd_	gfredericks: It looks like hash-map checks for even number of forms before macro expansion occurs
12:05	Bronsa	csd_: that happens at read-time
12:05	dc_	how do i configure clojure to use more cores? it's only like using 12% of my processor
12:05	phillord	@Bronsa I will reply on the mailing list -- I still don't think this makes sense
12:05	Bronsa	csd_: the hacky way to make it work is to put a ~@()
12:06	rweir	in what sense do you want clojure to use more cores
12:07	dc_	i've got some parallelized functions using r/fold and r/mapcat and reduce
12:07	justin_smith	dc_: you probably need to rewrite code so it can execute in more threads
12:07	justin_smith	oh
12:07	dc_	but the java process doesn't seem to be utilizing the cores
12:08	justin_smith	it will use all the cores it can, unless you force it not to
12:09	dc_	justin_smith: does that include processes spawned inside a repl?
12:09	dc_	or from inside intellij's repl?
12:09	justin_smith	yes
12:10	justin_smith	unless you went out of the way to place some limit on the CPUs it could use
12:10	dc_	i'm looking at activity monitor and the java process says 100%, but my CPU load is like 12%
12:11	cbryan	try a profiler?
12:11	dc_	might be osx
12:11	clgv	8 logical cores?
12:11	justin_smith	dc_: it could be that the CPU intensive part of what you are doing is all in one thread
12:12	clgv	maybe different relation ;)
12:12	clgv	100/800 vs 12.5/100 ...
12:12	dc_	if i'm using persistent/transient is this going to force certain ops to use one thread?
12:13	justin_smith	transients need to stay in one thread
12:13	clgv	dc_ currently (<= 1.6) you can't use trnaisent in other threads than the owner thread
12:14	gfredericks	what was the motivation for changing it?
12:14	Bronsa	gfredericks: supporting core.async
12:14	dc_	so a reduce using a transient structure wouldn't be parallelized?
12:14	clgv	dc_: also there is no implicit spawning of threads for clojure collections without using something that explicitely uses a different thread
12:14	Bronsa	technomancy: ban nikuse please
12:14	Bronsa	technomancy: it's a spammer
12:14	Glenjamin	dc_: reduce is never parallelized
12:14	justin_smith	dc_: the jdk comes with jvisualvm, and you can see a nice graph of all your threads and how hard each is working in a graph there
12:14	Glenjamin	core.reducers/fold can be though
12:14	dc_	Glenjamin: i thought reduce now uses r/reduce
12:15	justin_smith	dc_: you can just start jvisualvm, and choose your process and click around
12:15	clgv	but if you have many large enough collections the GC will spin up some threads ;)
12:15	Bronsa	dc_: reduce and r/reduce are different things
12:15	Glenjamin	not sure, but r/reduce is still single threaded
12:15	Bronsa	technomancy: thanks
12:15	technomancy	Bronsa: I got 'im earlier but forgot to use * as the hostmask
12:16	dc_	can i force reduce to use threads?
12:16	Glenjamin	only with r/fold
12:16	Bronsa	dc_: you can't. currently only r/fold can
12:17	dc_	ok cool, thanks guys
12:42	razum2um1	is there any way to inspect objects safely? (say for infinite seq print only <LazySeq@dfsdf>
12:43	justin_smith	,(str (range))
12:43	clojurebot	#<OutOfMemoryError java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space>
12:43	justin_smith	,(print (range))
12:43	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
12:44	razum2um1	justin_smith: strange, but in repl it prints infinite (probably it's smart bot)
12:46	cbryan	,(print (range 10))
12:46	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
12:46	cbryan	it just sets a threshold
12:47	gfredericks	,(doc print-length)
12:47	clojurebot	"; print-length controls how many items of each collection the printer will print. If it is bound to logical false, there is no limit. Otherwise, it must be bound to an integer indicating the maximum number of items of each collection to print. If a collection contains more items, the printer will print items up to the limit followed by '...' to represent the remaining items. The root binding is...
12:48	clgv	the bot that could decide the halting problem ;)
12:50	clgv	,(binding [print-length 500] (str (range)))
12:50	clojurebot	#<OutOfMemoryError java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space>
12:51	clgv	let's guess its memory ^^
12:52	razum2um1	,(binding [print-length 2] (str (range)))
12:52	clojurebot	#<OutOfMemoryError java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space>
12:52	cbryan	,(.maxMemory (Runtime/getRuntime))
12:52	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.SecurityException: Reference To Runtime is not allowed, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
12:52	cbryan	darn :p
12:53	clgv	ah lol have to use print ;)
12:53	clgv	,(binding [print-length 500] (print (range)))
12:53	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 1...
12:53	razum2um1	clgv: thanks!
13:13	success	Anyone know a simple explanation of STM?
13:13	success	getting rid of locks seems great but what is the downside?
13:13	CookedGryphon	success: you might do some work twice
13:13	rweir	complicated, poor performance with lots of collisions, operations need to be idempotent
13:14	clgv	rweir: you sounds pretty convinced of the benefits of STM :P
13:15	clgv	success: you can read up on pessimist vs optimistic transaction handling
13:15	rweir	no, ti's handy
13:15	rweir	but it's not a silver bullet
13:15	clgv	success: in worst case scenarios your calculation within the transaction might run a lot of times instead of once
13:16	clgv	rweir: usually I don't hunt werewolves while coding ;)
13:17	alexherbo2	Hi
13:17	alexherbo2	How start a repl headless?
13:18	alexherbo2	How send code to a repl?
13:18	justin_smith	alexherbo2: you can start a headless repl with lein repl :headless
13:19	justin_smith	then you would need to run lein repl :connect, or connect to it with some other client
13:19	alexherbo2	hum
13:19	alexherbo2	i actually need head
13:20	alexherbo2	how list repl ?
13:21	alexherbo2	in my editor i want send code to repl connected in current dir.
13:21	clgv	which editor do you use?
13:21	alexherbo2	kakoune
13:21	clgv	never heard of it. is there any clojure support for that one?
13:22	alexherbo2	a write syntax highlighting
13:22	alexherbo2	s/a/i/
13:22	clgv	yeah well, if that is all, you wont be able to send code from editor to repl
13:23	clgv	you probably need to switch to an editor with clojure support
13:24	cbryan	https://github.com/mawww/kakoune seems you can use :eval or something
13:24	alexherbo2	in a term i start kakoune from ~/foo/bar and edit baz.clj
13:24	alexherbo2	in another term i start lein repl from ~/foo/bar
13:24	alexherbo2	i want list connected repl
13:24	clgv	I want dinner!
13:25	clgv	scnr
13:25	alexherbo2	and connect from the editor to first repl
13:25	alexherbo2	in current dir
13:25	cbryan	alexherbo2: either use a different editor or write a plugin for kakaoune
13:25	alexherbo2	i will write a plugin
13:26	clgv	that is not the easiest task if you are new to clojure and leiningen
13:26	alexherbo2	it should not be hard.
13:27	technomancy	alexherbo2: you should be able to look for a .nrepl-port file in the project root
13:27	technomancy	theoretically that file gets deleted when the repl process exits, so if it's present it should be an indicator that there's a running repl
13:27	alexherbo2	what i need is find a repl and connect to it. send send selection to the repl.
13:28	technomancy	are you aware that the nrepl protocol is a bit more complicated than stdin/stdout?
13:29	alexherbo2	no
13:30	technomancy	https://github.com/clojure/tools.nrepl#design
13:30	technomancy	the simplest thing to do is to start a `lein repl` subprocess
13:30	technomancy	connecting to a running repl server means implementing the nrepl protocol
13:30	success	clgv: ok, indefineately many?
13:31	noonian	alexherbo2: if you are just starting with clojure i would recommend just using lein repl and reloading your code when you change it in your editor
13:31	clgv	success: you probably can construct such a scenario
13:32	technomancy	alexherbo2: I've done a standalone nrepl client, and it was ~500 lines of ocaml
13:32	success	compared to haskell, clojure feels pretty far behind, is this language really worth getting into?
13:32	technomancy	150 was the bencode implementation, you might be able to get that for free from a library, and ~50 was lein-specific stuff you would leave out
13:32	success	it seems mostly a webapp lang...?
13:32	tbaldridge	success: how are comparing?
13:32	cbryan	haskell was created in 1990
13:32	clgv	success: how do you judge both of these statements?
13:32	technomancy	success: it's over a decade behind, sure
13:32	cbryan	clojure in 2007
13:33	clgv	success: no you can write optimization algorithms with JVM performance in Clojure as well
13:33	technomancy	tbaldridge: number of years, I would guess =)
13:33	dbasch	success: we’re successfully using clojure at companies that do infrastructure, to process large amounts of data
13:33	success	i didnt mean when the projects were started, i meant where they are. haskell feels incredibly fresh and solid, so much more rigorous than anything I ever tried befoe
13:34	tbaldridge	success: feelings are never a good way to do tech evaluations ;-)
13:34	clgv	success: I wouldnt describe that syntax as "fresh" :P
13:34	technomancy	hmm, what unit of measurement is used for fresh/solid?
13:34	clgv	technomancy: in terms of fish smell ;)
13:34	technomancy	millimentos?
13:34	dbasch	success: the comparison only makes sense within a context. Otherwise you might as well be asking: should I ride a bike or fly a helicopter?
13:34	clgv	at least the fresh part ^^
13:35	success	actors use locks underneath right? or am i wrong? you push and pop from its mailbox so that access must be synchronized.
13:35	noonian	clojure feels pretty solid to me at least
13:35	tbaldridge	success: Clojure really doesn't have actors...
13:35	cbryan	i've never felt clojure :( i'
13:36	tbaldridge	success: you mean agents?
13:36	cbryan	dammit, hit enter before i finished my awesome joke
13:36	tbaldridge	success: but if you want a list of people who use clojure, this is a good starting point: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8549823
13:36	success	agents != actors?
13:36	tbaldridge	success: yep, you send msgs to actors, you send functions to agents
13:36	tbaldridge	success: actors require a message to deref, agents have instant deref
13:38	success	either way, you send something, it has to go via something, access to that something must be synchronized
13:39	tbaldridge	success: yes, agents are backed by a thread pool, but they can't deadlock since sending is async
13:39	dbasch	also agents are in-process
13:40	success	but how can sending be async? you cant push to the mailbox/Q/whatever without checking if someone is reading
13:40	laliluna	@success Of course you can
13:40	tbaldridge	there's many ways to do that, one of them is via a queue and a CAS.
13:41	laliluna	You can use compensation to validate if data reached its target
13:41	dbasch	success: that’s like saying that you cannot send an email if there’s nobody to read it
13:42	laliluna	If you sent money from US to Europe, this does not happen in one hop. Basically, the system validate at the end of the day, if all accounts are as expected.
13:42	cbryan	dbasch: MAILER-DAEMON begs to differ ;)
13:43	dbasch	cbryan: I can send an email to my father even though he’s been dead for 2 1/2 years. The account still exists.
13:44	success	no im saying if reading means deleting as well, then you cannot be sure that someone isnt deleting while you write. im thinking of data structures underneath, you could be manipulating the same pointers if you write and delete at the same time
13:44	tbaldridge	success: btw, sorry for all the snark. It's just a bit funny to go to a forum and say "your stuff seems to be less mature than this other stuff guys...". Say that and you're going to get some snark ;-)
13:44	tbaldridge	success: that's what CAS is for...
13:44	technomancy	heh, this is not exactly uncharted territory
13:45	cbryan	dbasch: true, true. depends on if "no one there" means "non existant" or "not available". but i was being pedantic!
13:45	laliluna	Unrelated question: do you avoid to use function names used by clojure in library APIs?
13:45	tbaldridge	success: if you have immutable data structures, and CAS that's about 3 lines of code
13:46	technomancy	I guess if you were unaware that CAS existed, clojure reference types would feel super shaky and untrustworthy =)
13:46	cbryan	laliluna: like create a function named map or something? i would avoid it if you can
13:47	laliluna	comment, sort-by, find are other candidates. It is not easy to find other names every time.
13:47	dbasch	laliluna: http://clojure.org/cheatsheet
13:47	dbasch	when in doubt
13:48	cbryan	dbasch: laliluna is wondering if its okay to name a function with the same name as one in clojure.core
13:49	dbasch	laliluna: it depends on the context. It’s fine to have a function with the same name if it does the same conceptual thing in a different context
13:49	cbryan	tbaldridge: what does CAS stand for here?
13:49	Bronsa	cbryan: compare and swap
13:49	cbryan	ah
13:50	tbaldridge	it's like STM for a single integer/pointer
13:51	martinklepsch	I asked that question before but since there's a bit more activity right now:
13:51	martinklepsch	what do people think of boot? I was sceptic the first time I saw it but I begin to see a use for it when it comes to application development
13:51	cbryan	martinklepsch: it looks cool but i haven't used it
13:51	martinklepsch	boot provides build tooling for Clojure. — https://github.com/boot-clj/boot
13:52	tbaldridge	martinklepsch: diversity is good, lein hasn't ticked me off enough to want to switch, but many of my co-workers already use other stuff besides lein.
13:52	tbaldridge	So the more options the better.
13:52	martinklepsch	tbaldridge: what else is there what your coworkers use?
13:52	cbryan	seems kind of like lein : boot :: maven : gradle
13:52	cbryan	i mean maven is hell on earth and i love lein, but in the sense of config vs code
13:53	tbaldridge	martinklepsch: some use custom bash scripts, others have built make based tools, or simply use maven in one way or another.
13:53	success	CAS=Content-addressable storage ?
13:53	cbryan	compare-and-swap, as Bronsa said
13:53	tbaldridge	success: compare and set.
13:54	mmeix	very newbish question again (sorry 'bout that): when using (clojure.data.csv/write-csv writer data & options) - which would be the correct writer to write to a file on disk? (And where do I educate myself about writers?)
13:54	martinklepsch	cbryan: not familiar with gradle/maven but that sound like a good analogy
13:54	mmeix	(and readers)
13:54	tbaldridge	success: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compare-and-swap
13:54	ToBeReplaced	mmeix: look at clojure.java.io/writer
13:54	laliluna	The JavaScript has a very good separation of task runners and tasks: grunt, gulp, brunch are solutions there. I am not sure, if this is the direction of boot
13:54	cbryan	(writer "my-file")
13:54	justin_smith	mmeix: I think (java.io.File. "your-file-name") works in that context
13:54	tbaldridge	success: almost all locks/mutexes are built off of CAS, but CAS itself is non-blocking.
13:54	mmeix	thanks
13:55	danneu	mmeix: check out clojure.java.io's fns/helpers at least as a place to start
13:55	cbryan	yeah, lein : boot :: grunt : gulp also works
13:55	laliluna	lein is nice for packaging and a hell, if you want to hook into one step. There it becomes as elegant as maven plugins
13:56	ToBeReplaced	huh... boot-clj is interesting
13:56	justin_smith	so make : autotools :: lein : ??
13:56	lazybot	justin_smith: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
13:56	honza	I have yet to see how Emacs + cider is any more interactive than vim + fireplace for Clojure development. Any mad enough to convince me? :)
13:56	justin_smith	$botsmack
13:56	alexherbo2	technomancy: http://leiningen.org/grench.html ? :)
13:56	danneu	honza: no vimscript
13:57	ToBeReplaced	if nothing else, i'm glad someone(s) are trying another approach
13:57	success	Android is multithreaded, you cant get away from it, would be interesting to have clojure working really good on android
13:57	justin_smith	honza: I don't think it's more interactive. But emacs has elisp and org mode, so use emacs if you want that sort of thing.
13:57	honza	danneu: meaning? easier to customize?
13:57	technomancy	alexherbo2: that's the one
13:58	justin_smith	honza: elisp is a mediocre programming language, but it's an actual language you can write things in
13:58	technomancy	justin_smith: make : autotools :: lein : cljsbuild maybe
13:58	danneu	honza: ever try evil-mode in emacs?
13:58	justin_smith	for vi's many benefits I don't think you could say writing an app in vimscript is reasonable
13:59	technomancy	honza: you can invoke commands implemented in clojure using nrepl-discover and have them auto-generated as first-class M-x commands in emacs, bound to keystrokes, etc
13:59	technomancy	cross-runtime metaprogramming
13:59	honza	justin_smith: how does that affect clojure development? vim-fireplace gives you tons of interactive code eval mappings that are supposedly only possible in emacs
13:59	alexherbo2	technomancy: not tested yet but works like this ?, grench eval "(+ 2 3)" and it sends code to running repl in current dir. i should see result in grench repl.
14:00	honza	danneu: yes - why?
14:00	technomancy	alexherbo2: result would be in stdout, not in a separate repl session
14:00	success	where would you recommend launching your clojure webapp?
14:00	success	heroku?
14:00	danneu	success: yeah
14:00	honza	technomancy: welp, that's a good one
14:00	alexherbo2	technomancy: i want see result in the repl
14:00	technomancy	alexherbo2: well, you can't use grench for that then
14:00	alexherbo2	i just want use editor to send selected code, and have a repl where i see result
14:01	alexherbo2	not see result inside the editor
14:01	clgv	alexherbo2: there are a lot of editor+plugin combination that are capable to do that
14:01	technomancy	alexherbo2: it sounds like you'd end up reimplementing grench in whatever language your editor uses for extensions
14:02	justin_smith	honza: I hae never seen that "only available in emacs" claim
14:02	danneu	success: have you seen https://devcenter.heroku.com/articles/getting-started-with-clojure#introduction
14:03	danneu	success: there are a couple gotchas with deploying to heroku. like you should specify :min-lein-version (or whatever) in projet.clj or else heroku uses an old 1.x version of lein that usually fails to deploy
14:03	technomancy	danneu: you get that for free with `lein new heroku myapp` fwiw
14:03	technomancy	but yes, good point
14:04	success	so it is a pain
14:04	success	maybe I should just run my own server!
14:04	danneu	if you've been programming clojure you should be used to idiosyncrasies
14:04	success	is it easy to deploy on my comp?
14:05	danneu	technomancy: is there a list of templates?
14:05	justin_smith	success: it's not a pain if you use lein new heroku, like technomancy said
14:05	technomancy	danneu: I think searching clojars for lein-template works?
14:05	danneu	cool
14:05	justin_smith	success: also, deploying to a vanilla unix env consists of "lein uberjar"; scp that to the server; run java -jar my.jar on the server
14:06	justin_smith	success: you can get fancier but often don't need to, that's how I do it for some production sites
14:06	danneu	success: doing the couple things you need to do for heroku is less painful than doing your own deploys
14:06	danneu	git push heroku vs ?
14:06	danneu	rsync?
14:06	justin_smith	danneu: scp / ssh -c restart (where restart is a five line script)
14:07	justin_smith	well lein uberjar first, of course
14:07	justin_smith	danneu: the only thing I install on the server is nginx and a jvm
14:07	danneu	i unfortunately still ssh into my linode, attach to my tmux session, and reboot the app
14:07	danneu	"one day i'll streamline/automate this"
14:08	danneu	it's been 1 year
14:08	technomancy	what's the app?
14:08	justin_smith	danneu: I find nohup more reliable (and scriptable) than running inside tmux
14:08	danneu	it's a forum
14:09	danneu	justin_smith: yeah, i'm a sysadmin noob. if a process isn't in the foreground, it doesnt exist to me
14:10	justin_smith	danneu: yeah, I think I am ignoring a big background of linux usage that makes things seem "simple" that actually took me a while to learn
14:10	justin_smith	but hey, once you know it it's like riding a bike!
14:10	justin_smith	and heroku definitely eliminates a bunch of that (in trade for some monetary cost and more limited options, of course)
14:13	danneu	heroku also forces you to get your act together. can't be as lazy
14:13	danneu	i somehow let my linode app get so nasty that it doesnt even work once it's an uberjar
14:15	success	technomancy, ty! working now
14:16	technomancy	cool
14:19	justin_smith	danneu: here are three scripts I have used in deployment, I intend to make them a bit more modular and make a real package out of them some day https://www.refheap.com/92704
14:19	success	what about running on a raspberry? clojure has a pretty big footprint compared to python right?
14:20	justin_smith	success: it does, but I have heard tell of it running OK on a pi (as long as you aren't doing something realtime like audio)
14:20	mmeix	(or a Beaglebone or on the new Intel Edison, interested in that too)
14:22	danneu	justin_smith: you use grunt? you didn't yakshave your own asset pipeline like the rest of us?
14:22	justin_smith	danneu: I have frontend guys on the team, they don't want to use clojure and I don't make them use it
14:22	justin_smith	(well, the boss doesn't make them use it, it isn't even up to me)
14:24	danneu	plant the seed, man. start slow. grow your hair out like hickey's
14:24	justin_smith	danneu: getting too old for that (or too balding to be precise)
14:24	mgaare	this is ugly... better way to do this? (some-> nil-or-fn (#(%)))
14:25	success	meh, this language just doesnt bring anything to the table.
14:25	justin_smith	I'm sorry to hear you feel that way. It's worked great for me.
14:25	noonian	success: haha
14:25	mgaare	ok I guess (when nil-or-fn (nil-or-fn)) is nicer
14:26	noonian	i think you just need to spend more time with it
14:26	justin_smith	mgaare: (and (ifn? nil-or-fn) (nil-or-fn))
14:26	justin_smith	it makes it more explicit what you are checking
14:26	justin_smith	what if someone accidentally passed "true" in
14:27	noonian	success: what piqued your interest in clojure in the first place if you don't mind me asking?
14:28	mgaare	to give a little more context, it's actually this: (some-> (get-in functions-map [:maybe :fn]) (#(%))))
14:28	mgaare	I just re-wrote as a when-let and I feel better about myself
14:30	success	noonian, the possibility of using it instead of java (on android) but it is not practical at all there
14:30	danneu	noonian: embedded programming
14:31	noonian	success: ah, yeah i think clojure has some problems on android
14:31	mgaare	sometimes the embarassment of showing something crappy to the channel is enough motivation to come up with something better. so, thanks all :D
14:31	danneu	success: youre talking about barely charted territory http://clojure-android.info/
14:32	mgaare	for even more fun, you can go clojurescript -> phonegap -> android
14:32	danneu	oh man
14:33	danneu	it took me long enough to even get the bundled-for-android eclipse package to run the example program without error.
14:34	razum2um1	is there any way to include some jar into one build by lein jar? how can I depend on some arbitrary jar file?
14:35	mgaare	razum2um1: it's not very fun to do that. The easiest way is to get the jar you want into a maven repository. The other way is to use a lein plugin
14:35	mgaare	no, "easiest" was not the word I wanted there. "most recommended"
14:36	razum2um1	mgaare: where is no pom.xml file, but jar has no deps, is there an easy way like lein deploy maven?
14:37	mgaare	razum2um1: you can just make a skeleton pom file in that case.
14:38	razum2um1	mgaare: ok, thx ;)
14:38	justin_smith	mgaare: isn't there a lein command that does that?
14:38	mgaare	justin_smith: there certainly might be
14:39	justin_smith	lein-localrepo
14:39	justin_smith	it does various stuff with the local maven cache
14:39	technomancy	you can just use the second arity of lein deploy
14:39	justin_smith	oh, that too
14:40	success	sorry if I was rude, no offense meant!
14:41	mgaare	you can't offend clojure people. we have abstracted away our emotional response mechanisms
14:41	success	just trying to figure out if this was for me and the conclusion is it is not. it does not offer me anything at all.
14:41	dbasch	if I were doing android development, I’d probably stick with Java.
14:42	dbasch	mostly because of the tooling
14:42	technomancy	I read that as "because of the trolling" at first and thought "it certainly would provide many rich opportunities"
14:43	danneu	is it rare for a given JS library to be closure-compatible?
14:43	danneu	i.e. get to move it into the build process instead of :libs + externs?
14:43	noonian	danneu: definitely, its mostly only googles libraries afaik
14:44	dbasch	trolling in java is easier too, but the clojure support for trolling keeps getting better
14:44	technomancy	http://technomancy.us/165
14:45	amalloy	dbasch: the downside is it takes so many words to build up to a proper troll in java that your audience leaves in the middle
14:45	dbasch	I was listening to the stack exchange podcast, apparently one of the indicators of poor quality of a question in SO is having “java” as its only tag
14:46	mgaare	I'd imagine a non-trivial percentage of java SO questions are related to CS101 homework assignments
14:47	dbasch	mgaare: they speculated quite a bit about the reasons, one possibility is that a vast majority of the java questions are trivially googleable
14:49	danneu	which of course leads to a nice succinct SO answer
14:49	danneu	SO is about playing the answer arbitrage market
14:52	csd_	Has anyone experienced a problem where cider-error's stacktrace's colors are wrong. It's giving me dark on dark and its nearly impossible to read.
14:52	justin_smith	csd_: put your cursor on the text, and M-x describe-face
14:53	csd_	I did, it's telling me default, and it's incorrect
14:53	justin_smith	you will end up with a hyperlink you can go to to set the new color for future usage
14:53	justin_smith	are you really on the colorized text? if so that is really weird
14:53	csd_	It's not reporting the correct face for some reason
14:53	csd_	Yes. I am on the stacktrace portion of the buffer
14:53	justin_smith	csd_: it could be a face that "bled", you may need to go up to where the color setting started
14:54	csd_	you mean a problem with another package?
14:54	justin_smith	csd_: also, it could be an overlay instead of a face (m-x describe-text-properties iirc)
14:54	justin_smith	no, not another package
14:54	justin_smith	for any given text, emacs knows why it has the color it has
14:55	justin_smith	it usually comes down to font-lock, overlays, or bugs
14:55	csd_	that last command seems like it is the right one
14:55	csd_	looks like the face is cider-stacktrack-face, and every property of it is undefined
14:56	justin_smith	csd_: you can follow that as a link and set the colors
14:56	alexherbo2	technomancy: the editor i use, kakoune, is langage agnostic.
14:56	justin_smith	it is probably inheriting a bad default
14:56	csd_	inherits default so that explains that
14:56	csd_	thx
14:56	justin_smith	np, sorry it took me a few to remember the real solution there :)
14:56	technomancy	alexherbo2: if it doesn't let you write extensions in-process then that just means it supports all languages equally badly =\
14:57	justin_smith	technomancy: ed is language agnostic
14:57	alexherbo2	technomancy: yes
15:00	csd_	is it worthwhile reading let over lambda for someone who isn't doing CL?
15:00	amalloy	csd_: it won't actively harm you, so "worthwhile" depends how much you value your time. there's some value there
15:01	amalloy	there are some interesting ideas and techniques, which mostly don't apply to clojure but might get you thinking
15:01	csd_	i read that the macro portion of it is supposed to be pretty good
15:01	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
15:02	justin_smith	~i read that the macro portion of it
15:02	clojurebot	i read that the macro portion of it is supposed to be pretty good
15:11	SegFaultAX	justin_smith: Obligatory https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed-msg.html
15:13	justin_smith	SegFaultAX: I should make a line editor for clojure
15:13	justin_smith	all the old lisps had one
15:13	justin_smith	do all your work in the repl!
15:16	SegFaultAX	Hah, do it! :)
15:32	justin_smith	and then I can have a setup where you can define editor plugins in clojure - and someone can integrate it with curses or awt - and then we have clomacs!
15:33	amalloy	bbloom: my recollection of your stance on monads is that you think specific monad instances are useful (eg mapcat for List), but that there's no real value in having the generic notion of a Monad. (a) is this about right, and (b) i was curious how you feel about monoids
15:33	bbloom	amalloy: that's close to how i feel
15:33	bbloom	amalloy: there obviously is value to the generic notion of a monad when you have something that operates on it, like do syntax in haskell
15:34	bbloom	but if you don't have return type polymorphism (as you can't really in a latent typed language) then you have to specify the monad specifically, so you might as well specify that via the syntax you choose
15:35	bbloom	ie when you use clojure.core/for, you're specifying that you want the list monad and it's syntactic form
15:35	bbloom	list comprehension is the monadic interface, but it's a richer interface than just bind/return
15:35	bbloom	so it gets special syntax, like :let, :when, etc
15:36	bbloom	amalloy: that make sense?
15:36	amalloy	wellll, :let is just more sugar over bind/return. :when is a bit richer, though
15:37	bbloom	amalloy: no let is sugar over lets expressions in between binds
15:37	amalloy	sure
15:37	amalloy	i guess i meant, it's sugar over things that don't need any more "power" than bind/return
15:37	bbloom	yes, true
15:37	bbloom	but worth nothing that haskell's AST explicitly supports late statements in do notation
15:38	amalloy	s/late/let, right?
15:38	bbloom	yeah
15:38	bbloom	(doc for)
15:38	clojurebot	"([seq-exprs body-expr]); List comprehension. Takes a vector of one or more binding-form/collection-expr pairs, each followed by zero or more modifiers, and yields a lazy sequence of evaluations of expr. Collections are iterated in a nested fashion, rightmost fastest, and nested coll-exprs can refer to bindings created in prior binding-forms. Supported modifiers are: :let [binding-form expr ...], :while test, :when te
15:38	bbloom	oh yeah, while too
15:39	bbloom	haskell has list comprehensions for when/while
15:39	amalloy	and i definitely see what you mean in a loosely-typed language like clojure: there's not a ton of value in generic monad functions, because even though you can write them they're not really as easy to use than specialized versions
15:39	amalloy	bbloom: well, when is just a function; you can include that in do notation too
15:39	amalloy	though i think `guard` is the function more like clojure's :when
15:39	bbloom	http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Syntactic_sugar
15:40	bbloom	yeah, guard is a monadic operation
15:40	bbloom	the list monad's interface is larger than the generic monad's interface
15:40	bbloom	that's the point
15:40	bbloom	if you want special monadic syntax, you lose that for things outside the generic interface
15:40	bbloom	modulo let
15:40	bbloom	as far as i can tell
15:41	bbloom	although the "-- or equivalently" block looks relatively nice
15:43	bbloom	amalloy: do you know how to do :while in haskell?
15:43	amalloy	bbloom: i was just about to say that :while is the interesting one and i don't know what's like it in haskell
15:43	amalloy	i have a SO comment somewhere, where i asked a haskell guy with some clojure experience and his response was similar
15:44	bbloom	shrug either which way, for syntax, haskell people generally use list comrhensions instead of do notation
15:44	bbloom	i wonder what other extra-monadic operations are interesting on which underlying monads
15:45	bbloom	surely there are many, but which benefit from syntax support?
15:46	bbloom	scala's for comprehensions include yoda-style trailing `if`
15:46	amalloy	speaking of using do-notation for list comprehensions, i saw this beginner haskell question recently, and an answer which was completely incomprehensible, even to someone like me who already knows the answer: http://stackoverflow.com/q/26659648/625403 (this is unusual for haskell SO, despite the stereotype that haskellers just answer everything with graduate-level mathematics)
15:47	bbloom	heh
15:47	bbloom	http://docs.scala-lang.org/tutorials/FAQ/yield.html
15:47	bbloom	.withFilter
15:49	amalloy	that's basically the same as :when, right? (for [x xs :when cond] (f x)) => for (x <- xs; if cond) {yield f x}
15:49	amalloy	ours is just as trailing/yoda
15:49	bbloom	yes
15:50	bbloom	https://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/MonadPlus
15:50	amalloy	right, that's where guard lives
15:50	bbloom	yeah
15:50	amalloy	needs mzero, iirc
15:51	bbloom	hilarious that it's called "MonadPlus"
15:51	bbloom	is that a technical term or "shit, this is useful, let's put it in"
15:51	amalloy	bbloom: plus as in addition, i think
15:51	amalloy	zero and plus
15:51	bbloom	yeah, i know, but surely there is a word from abstract algebra
15:52	bbloom	anyway
15:52	bbloom	i'm not saying do notation is useless
15:52	bbloom	or that having a monad-abstraction is useless
15:52	bbloom	i'm just saying it's not that useful :-P
15:55	aztak	good morning!
15:56	nathan7	bbloom: AdditiveMonad?
15:57	bbloom	nathan7: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_(mathematics) maybe? i suck at abstract algebra
15:57	nathan7	bbloom: No
15:57	nathan7	bbloom: or, hmm, yes
15:58	nathan7	bbloom: mzero is the identity element
15:58	nathan7	bbloom: and mplus is the group operation
15:58	nathan7	bbloom: ah, no
15:58	nathan7	bbloom: a group is a monoid
15:59	nathan7	bbloom: monoids have associativity and an identity element
15:59	bbloom	we need to lock the abstract algebra and category theory people in a room and convince them to chop the vocabulary in half
15:59	nathan7	bbloom: "The precise set of rules that MonadPlus should obey is not agreed upon."
15:59	nathan7	on the plus side, I now know what a monoid is
16:00	bbloom	if the rules are hard to decide, that means you don't understand it :-P
16:00	dbasch	bbloom: if you chop the vocabulary in half, then talking about all those things becomes really verbose
16:00	bbloom	which is also why i don't concern myself too much w/ the precise mathematical structure and instead worry about making shit that works and feels right
16:01	bbloom	dbasch: i was mostly kidding
16:01	dbasch	bbloom: let’s do away with decimal, I don’t want to remember all those symbols when 0 and 1 suffice :P
16:05	nathan7	bbloom: you should learn J or K
16:06	nathan7	bbloom: it has like maybe 40 functions? many of them with the same symbol but different arities
16:06	nathan7	bbloom: +/%# being an averaging function, for example (+/ is kinda like map, % is division, # is count)
16:07	dbasch	and then you can find out if non-abelian supercalifragilistic groups are supersolvable
16:11	lodin	bbloom: Can you elaborate on why do notation is not that useful (in Clojure?)? I've heard this statement before, but never got the rationale.
16:11	bbloom	lodin: amalloy and i discussed it above
16:15	lodin	bbloom: Ah, the lack of return type inference. Indeed.
16:18	amalloy	lodin: which is the same thing that makes functions like (Monad m) => (...) not very useful: it's super-hard to say which specialization you want
16:19	amalloy	i noticed it because yesterday i was writing (sequence :: (Monad m) => [m a] -> m [a]), since i wanted it for test.check generators, and i realized/remembered: oh yeah, if you apply this to the list monad instead of the generator monad, it's cartesian-product
16:19	amalloy	and like...too bad: i kinda just have to write it twice, with different binds and returns
16:22	lodin	Yeah. I've faced the same issue. Specifically, you can't put return in a protocol, which you would do for fmap in a Functor protocol and bind in a Monad protocol.
16:24	amalloy	right. the various attempts at generic clojure monad libraries have tried to address this in various ways; none are super-impressive
16:26	amalloy	jimduey's protocol-monads does an interesting thing which makes do-notation work surprisingly well but doesn't seem to address the question of functions like sequence
16:26	dbasch	here’s an example of a bad “java” question on SO: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/26745316/how-to-interpolate-point-in-time-in-java
16:27	lodin	amalloy: Ultimately I guess you end up writing your sequence function with two arguments: the monad description, and the [m a] value.
16:28	amalloy	right. you have to do all the type-witness passing by hand and at runtime, where it's "ordinarily" done at compile time by ghc
16:28	amalloy	well, actually, i guess sometimes it does leak up to runtime in ghc too. either way doing it by hand sucks
16:31	arrdem	is there a good "infinite integer" value hack that people use or is it just Double/POSITIVE_INFINITY?
16:35	lodin	amalloy: Is https://github.com/bwo/monads/blob/master/src/monads/util.clj#L68 satisfactory?
16:41	amalloy	lodin: i can't tell how the knowledge about the current monad gets from place to place, there. it looks vaguely like he's using something like the Free monad to determine the structure of the computation without running it, and then at the top level running that Free instance through the monad you want?
16:41	amalloy	a neat approach if he actually made it work
16:44	EvanR	monads in clojure?
16:44	EvanR	does that imply types in clojure?
16:45	talios	clojure has types - what do you think list, set, map are? is there a difference between data structure and type?
16:45	EvanR	i mean, non dynamic types of the simple java flavor
16:46	talios	you can type hint. and protocols/records compile to static java classes so..
16:46	dbasch	arrdem: every number should be < Infinity in the jvm
16:47	EvanR	my question was whether monad libs come with the expectation of parametric types, or are they just freeform
16:47	justin_smith	arrdem: Integer specifically?
16:47	EvanR	cuz freeform would be interesting
16:47	arrdem	nevermind I'm being silly about how I'm approaching this
16:47	amalloy	dbasch: except NaN
16:47	justin_smith	,Integer/MAX_VALUE
16:47	clojurebot	2147483647
16:47	justin_smith	,Long/MAX_VALUE
16:47	clojurebot	9223372036854775807
16:48	arrdem	\forall X x \lteq \Ifty is good enough
16:48	dbasch	amalloy: but NaN is not a number :)
16:48	amalloy	,(number? Double/NaN)
16:48	clojurebot	true
16:48	arrdem	NaN can go cry in the corner with NaR neither of whom belong in real data :P
16:48	EvanR	,(< Double/Infinity Double/Infinity)
16:48	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to find static field: Infinity in class java.lang.Double, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
16:48	amalloy	NaR?
16:48	dbasch	I didn’t say any #(number? %) :P
16:48	arrdem	amalloy: Not a Result. used in some speculative hardware.
16:49	dbasch	btw, wat
16:49	arrdem	lol EvanR
16:50	EvanR	theres two kinds of NaNs
16:50	dbasch	it is true that not a number is a number… therefore everything in clojure is true
16:50	justin_smith	dbasch: with two notable exceptions, yes
16:51	EvanR	,(if nil 1 0)
16:51	clojurebot	0
16:51	EvanR	,(if NaN 1 0)
16:51	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: NaN in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
16:51	EvanR	,(if Double/NaN 1 0)
16:51	clojurebot	1
16:51	arrdem	EvanR: it's ##Double/POSITIVE_NAN
16:51	amalloy	(inc justin_smith)
16:51	lazybot	⇒ 116
16:52	justin_smith	arrdem: it's ##(Double/NaN)
16:52	lazybot	⇒ NaN
16:52	EvanR	positive nan o_O
16:52	arrdem	or does NaN not have a sign bit.. I thought it did..
16:52	EvanR	nooo
16:52	amalloy	arrdem: were you positive?
16:52	arrdem	amalloy: gtfo
16:52	technomancy	some architectures give zero a sign bit
16:52	dbasch	(doc number?)
16:52	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns true if x is a Number"
16:53	EvanR	,(= Double/NaN Double/NaN)
16:53	clojurebot	false
16:53	amalloy	/topic Clojure, and puns thereon.
16:53	justin_smith	,-0.0 ; technomancy like the jvm, sometimes
16:53	clojurebot	-0.0
16:53	amalloy	justin_smith: well, for floats that's required
16:53	dbasch	,(instance? Number Double/NaN)
16:53	clojurebot	true
16:53	ambrosebs	,(= Double/NaN)
16:53	clojurebot	true
16:53	justin_smith	a classic
16:53	EvanR	wtf
16:53	arrdem	EvanR: HAH yes you can have +/- NaN, but it's ignored on most architectures
16:54	arrdem	NaN is 0bX1111111axxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
16:54	arrdem	where a
16:54	justin_smith	,(.longValue Double/NaN)
16:54	clojurebot	0
16:54	arrdem	is the signaling bit
16:55	technomancy	(negative? -0.0)
16:55	technomancy	,(negative? -0.0)
16:56	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: negative? in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
16:56	lodin	amalloy: Don't know about the free monad, but yeah. That's basically it I think. I ended up with such a solution and then found that library.
16:56	technomancy	,(neg? -0.0)
16:56	clojurebot	false
16:56	technomancy	justin_smith: that doesn't count
16:56	EvanR	,(negative? Double/NaN)
16:56	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: negative? in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
16:56	EvanR	,(neg? Double/NaN)
16:56	clojurebot	false
16:56	EvanR	,(pos? Double/NaN)
16:56	clojurebot	false
16:56	justin_smith	technomancy: the only number that prints with a leading - that isn't negative, I guess
16:56	justin_smith	(zero? Double/NaN)
16:56	justin_smith	,(zero? Double/NaN)
16:56	clojurebot	false
16:57	EvanR	i hate NaN
16:57	amalloy	,((juxt neg? pr-str) (- Double/NaN))
16:57	clojurebot	[false "NaN"]
16:57	amalloy	well, so much for that being a counterexample
16:57	amalloy	EvanR: how do you feel about naan?
16:58	EvanR	its ok
16:58	pmonks	EvanR: my nan is the best. She makes me stewed apple.
16:58	technomancy	amalloy: are you asking for a naan disclosure agreement?
16:58	amalloy	technomancy: only clojure-related puns, sorry
16:58	nathan7	o.o
16:58	amalloy	this is more of an engineering wordplay
16:58	nathan7	(naan highlights me for hysterical raisins)
16:59	dbasch	I only like naan that lends itself to currying
16:59	nathan7	shoo, off to Haskell you go q=
17:01	lodin	amalloy: in monads.core you find (defn run-monad [m computation] ...) and (defn return [x] (Return. x)), and I believe (Return. x) is a computation.
17:03	gfredericks	amalloy: something something naan disclojure agreement
17:04	{blake}	Why would "lein test" show a FAIL and then end with "Ran 2 tests containing 2 assertions. 0 failures, 0 errors."?
17:04	dbasch	gfredericks: you have to sign one before they let you eat here http://www.yelp.com/biz/naan-n-curry-san-francisco-4
17:09	justin_smith	{blake}: that's weird, how many tests do you actually have defined?
17:10	sdegutis	Is rsync a reasonable way to deploy a Clojure web app in uberjar form along with its resources dir?
17:10	technomancy	(deftest ohai (println "FAIL") (is true) (is true))
17:10	amalloy	sdegutis: why would you deploy its resources directory separately? it should be included in the uberjar
17:10	sdegutis	amalloy: I meant resources/public, for Nginx.
17:11	{blake}	justin_smith, Two. I'm just starting to write tests. Two were in the auto-generated test file, but I removed one. Then I added one.
17:11	dbasch	sdegutis: why does nginx need the resources/public dir?
17:12	{blake}	If I run it from the REPL in Cursive, it doesn't even show the error. (Making running testing from the REPL useless.)
17:12	amalloy	dbasch: i presume sdegutis wants to let nginx serve his public resources instead of doing it with ring
17:13	dbasch	amalloy: yes, but why?
17:13	ticking	Quick poll :), what is the most idiomatic way to split a sequence of booleans on a true false flank?
17:13	amalloy	ticking: flank??????
17:13	amalloy	it's not an incoherent choice. nginx surely does a better job of it. better caching, performance, whatever
17:14	dbasch	amalloy: sure, if you’re google, or heroku, or whatever
17:14	dbasch	otherwise it’s a very premature optimization
17:14	ticking	amalloy: edge, sorry it's late here
17:14	justin_smith	{blake}: using clojure.test, right?
17:15	{blake}	justin_smith, Yep.
17:15	amalloy	ticking: do you have a sample input with expected output? it's a pretty vague question
17:15	justin_smith	{blake}: if you load the namespaces that define the tests, (clojure.test/run-all-tests) will run the tests and give a summary
17:15	arrdem	ticking: amalloy: [true true false true] -> [[true true] [false] [true]] if I understand...
17:16	ticking	amalloy arrdem: [true true true false true true false true] => [[true true true false] [true true false] [true]]
17:16	amalloy	so whenever a is false and b is true, put a split between a and b
17:16	amalloy	(in that order)
17:16	ticking	yeah
17:17	sdegutis	dbasch: For when the site is restarting.
17:17	amalloy	if you don't mind pulling in flatland/useful (https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/flatland/useful/seq.clj#L224), you could: (defn splits [xs] (partition-between (fn [[a b]] (and b (not a))) xs))
17:17	sdegutis	amalloy: Most of my resources are on CloudFront. I just want to serve some while the Clojure web app is restarting.
17:18	ticking	amalloy: yeah, but this has to be doable in clojure.core :D
17:18	amalloy	ticking: huh? you're hoping to include this function in clojure.core?
17:18	dbasch	sdegutis: sure, you can rsync. I’d rather deal with the few seconds of downtime
17:18	gfredericks	&(pr-str (map #(doto % println) '(1 2 3)))
17:18	lazybot	⇒ "(1\n2\n1 3\n2 3)"
17:18	sdegutis	Than what?
17:19	dbasch	sdegutis: than with the error-prone nature of deploying a jar and a directory of resources separately
17:19	sdegutis	Why is that error-prone?
17:19	dbasch	unless I had to optimize for uptime because I have tons of users and I lost money when they couldn’t see the site
17:19	ticking	amalloy: it's driving me nuts, splitting seqs between values is such a basic operation, and in comparison partition-by is super useless, especially considering that partition-by is a special case of partition-between
17:19	dbasch	sdegutis: because you have to write a custom script to deploy both at once, and you could forget to run it
17:20	{blake}	justin_smith, Yeah. There it shows 1 test containing 1 assertion. :-/
17:20	sdegutis	dbasch: It's the only way to deploy though.
17:20	amalloy	ticking: i mean, i agree; that's why i wrote partition-between. what does this have to do with not wanting to use useful?
17:20	justin_smith	{blake}: is there some other namespace that has test definitions in it that did not get loaded?
17:20	arrdem	&(bit-shift-left 5 2)
17:20	lazybot	⇒ 20
17:20	ticking	amalloy: I'll happily use it, but it should be in core ;)
17:21	arrdem	&(bit-shift-left 5 5)
17:21	lazybot	⇒ 160
17:21	amalloy	oh, by "has to", you mean "there should be a way to do it with just functions in clojure.core"?
17:21	ticking	amalloy: yeah
17:22	amalloy	obviously there is one; reimplement all the functions in useful, which depend on stuff not in clojure.core, and use the reimplemented versions as helpers
17:22	ticking	in less than 5 lines ;)
17:22	amalloy	it's not super-hard to write this boolean-splitting function by hand
17:22	{blake}	justin_smith, When I do a run-all-tests in the REPL, it doesn't load my "main" tester. When I "lein auto test" (using the "auto" plugin), it loads both files.
17:22	amalloy	but it's so specific i can't imagine why you would; instead, implement partition-between
17:23	m1dnight_	If I want to make a quick program (solve a puzzle, belphegor numbers, for who cares), how do I import a namespace?
17:23	ticking	yeah I wrote one that is faster than partition-by when supplied with not=
17:23	technomancy	m1dnight_: "use" is fine for throwaway code
17:24	m1dnight_	but then i get classnotfound exception
17:24	m1dnight_	It's not in a leiningen project, to be clear
17:24	m1dnight_	just a buffer in cider
17:24	sdegutis	I like the idea of deploying via Git, though.
17:24	sdegutis	That way I can push a tag to remote.
17:24	technomancy	well ... the namespace has to be present
17:25	amalloy	i don't think you can write it well with clojure.core in less than five lines
17:26	dbasch	amalloy: you could do it easily with a greedy loop and an accumulator
17:26	amalloy	dbasch: so far that doesn't sound like a counterargument
17:26	amalloy	lazy seqs for life
17:27	arrdem	transducer style partial lazyness :P
17:29	amalloy	ticking: if i had to write it from scratch and wasn't allowed to build any reusable helpers, https://www.refheap.com/caf4ede90f5fd21a2fa1d47e8 is what i would do
17:33	arrdem	http://macbeth.cs.ucdavis.edu/lang_study.pdf
17:34	dbasch	“a very large data set from GitHub (729 projects)” … ok
17:35	arrdem	by the standards of software defect papers that's actually not bad :P
17:35	arrdem	most of the software engineering literature I've seen is grateful for 2 or 3 projects as samples
17:36	dbasch	“Some languages induce fewer defects than other languages.” ok, let’s make everyone code in Scala and see how that remains true
17:37	m1dnight_	hmm, I've been using exp function in clojure by accident (meant to write expT) and it yields false results, is that possible?
17:39	Bronsa	m1dnight_: there's no exp function in clojure
17:39	m1dnight_	huh
17:39	m1dnight_	what on earth have I been using then..
17:39	Bronsa	,exp
17:39	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: exp in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
17:39	noonian	there is java's Math/exp
17:39	m1dnight_	I have no use, import nothing
17:40	noonian	,(Math/exp 2 4)
17:40	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method: exp, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
17:40	m1dnight_	and yet, (exp x y) worked :p
17:40	m1dnight_	oddly enough
17:40	m1dnight_	user> (exp 2 3)
17:40	m1dnight_	8
17:40	m1dnight_	.. :p
17:40	Bronsa	m1dnight_: how are you running clojure?
17:40	m1dnight_	Cider
17:40	m1dnight_	hmm, user defined function according to repl
17:40	m1dnight_	i must have done.. euhm.. nvm :p
17:42	{blake}	Wow...inspired by Eiffel!
17:44	dbasch	arrdem: “the defect proneness of languages in general is not associated with software domains.” <- they cannot assert that if their universe of domains is restricted to a few open-source projects on github
17:46	arrdem	dbasch: gimme a minute hand-assembling some code..
17:47	cfleming	{blake}: Are you having problems testing in Cursive?
17:47	{blake}	cfleming, I'm having specific issues testing in Cursive, but I'm having problems NOT in Cursive as well. =)
17:48	cfleming	{blake}: Hehe, well I can at least help with the Cursive bit
17:48	cfleming	{blake}: Have you seen this? https://cursiveclojure.com/userguide/testing.html
17:48	{blake}	cfleming, I have, but not in a while. Let me revisit...
17:48	cfleming	{blake}: It's slightly out of date (the tooltips are now on the error message in the editor itself) but it'll give you the idea.
17:49	cfleming	{blake}: If you're still having problems let me know
17:49	m1dnight_	Hmm, so I can't use namespaces like math.numeric-tower in a not-leining project?
17:49	m1dnight_	I have the clojure jar in the same foler, but I have no idea if I have to load it by hand or so?
17:50	dbasch	m1dnight_: you need the jar in the classpath
17:50	m1dnight_	I'm guessing that is in the classpath of CIDER?
17:51	{blake}	cfleming, Well, it runs the tests, so there's that. The counts are wrong, just as they at the CLI.
17:51	amalloy	m1dnight_: doing anything not in a leiningen project is quite a handicap. everything is easier with lein
17:51	cfleming	{blake}: So your counts are wrong using lein test, or whatever you're using to run your tests?
17:52	m1dnight_	but I just want to solve a simple puzzle, I dont want to create a leining project for that
17:52	{blake}	cfleming, Yeah, it seems to count each namespace as 1, regardless of the number of tests and assertions.
17:52	m1dnight_	not being able to quickly mash up some code for a 10 line puzzle is a handicap imo
17:52	dbasch	m1dnight_: but it takes like 1 second to create a leiningen project, and you can keep it for future puzzles
17:53	m1dnight_	point well made
17:53	m1dnight_	argh ;p ill do it that way then
17:53	{blake}	dbasch, m1dnight_ That's what I do.
17:56	arrdem	bah bugs
17:57	ToBeReplaced	m1dnight_: "lein one-off" might be of interest
17:57	arrdem	dbasch: you're right. yay research criticism
17:57	xonev1	m1dnight_: I use the lein-exec plugin for simple scripts: https://github.com/kumarshantanu/lein-exec
17:57	m1dnight_	aaah, that might be something that might aleviate :)
17:57	m1dnight_	thank you guys
17:59	dbasch	arrdem: yeah, I’m sure the approach is ok for github, but for example C is used in tons of industrial domains with long development cycles (e.g. embedded devices). They need to take that into account when they make broad statements like that one.
17:59	arrdem	dbasch: for sure, but measuring defect rates and classes for closed source stuff like that is le hard :/
18:00	dbasch	arrdem: that’s the kind of data that the SEI has, mostly with defense contractors
18:01	arrdem	dbasch: which SEI? :P
18:02	dbasch	arrdem: software engineering institute http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability_Maturity_Model
18:02	cfleming	{blake}: Hmm, that's strange. Cursive will probably report the same as clojure.test does there, it just delegates to clojure.test for all that info.
18:04	andyf	Bronsa: Ok, Clojure and taj trivia question. Clojure seems to allow foo/bar as args to methods in reify, but taj throws exception. That looks reasonable to me on taj side, but wanted to verify
18:05	amalloy	,(reify Object (toString [user/this] "x"))
18:05	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval25$reify__26 x>
18:05	amalloy	huh, i didn't expect that
18:05	Bronsa	andyf: ugh.
18:05	Bronsa	andyf: yeah I'll have to support that
18:05	technomancy	I vaguely recall opening a bug about reify accepting nonsense args
18:06	Bronsa	,(reify Obejct (foo/toString [foo/this] "foo"))
18:06	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: Obejct in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
18:06	Bronsa	,(reify Object (foo/toString [foo/this] "foo"))
18:06	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval75$reify__76 foo>
18:06	andyf	Bronsa: Why would you have to support it? Isn't it an accident that Clojure accepts it?
18:06	amalloy	Bronsa clearly doesn't trust my tests
18:07	amalloy	andyf: lacking a spec that's independent from the existing implementation, it doesn't really matter what's an accident: anything that works in clojure is as close to defined behavior as we get
18:07	Bronsa	andyf: some code might rely on this, clojure.core relies on (foo/toString ..) to work
18:07	Bronsa	,(deftype x [] Object (toString [foo/bar] ""))
18:07	clojurebot	sandbox.x
18:07	Bronsa	gah
18:07	andyf	Even when I say Clojure accepts it, I just mean it doesn't give error. You can't refer to those args in the body (at least I don't know how)
18:07	Bronsa	andyf: ah really?
18:08	Bronsa	,(defprotocol p (f [_ _]))
18:08	clojurebot	p
18:08	Bronsa	,(f (reify p (f [_ foo/bar] bar)))
18:08	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No single method: f of interface: sandbox.p found for function: f of protocol: p, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
18:08	justin_smith	{blake}: coming back after a nap: clojure.test does not do anything to look for namespaces with tests in them, all it does is run the tests in namespaces that have been loaded
18:09	justin_smith	{blake}: lein test has some rules for looking for namepsaces that have tests in them
18:09	technomancy	I wish that were part of clojure.test
18:09	technomancy	really lame to have to put them in the task
18:09	Bronsa	,(f (reify p (f [_ foo/bar] bar)) 1)
18:09	clojurebot	1
18:10	Bronsa	andyf: ^ looks like it work
18:10	Bronsa	works*
18:10	andyf	Look at gist.github.com/jafingerhut/9323268424eca54293f5
18:10	technomancy	Bronsa: it's not the same identifier though
18:10	technomancy	I mean ... FSVO "works"
18:12	Bronsa	andyf: how did you find out about this?
18:12	andyf	Got exception when trying to lint aleph lib, got that taj exception, and started experimenting.
18:12	andyf	Let me find aleph code.
18:13	Bronsa	ah so there is real code that depends on this :(
18:13	technomancy	andyf: fixing this in a way that throws at compile time would be a lot better than some behaviour changes that just affect codebases silently though
18:14	andyf	I think it just happens to work with Clojure because aleph has this issue for args named _, so never used in method
18:14	technomancy	anyone who sees an exception would immediately say "oh wow, we were doing what??" and feel embarrassed.
18:14	technomancy	like how Clojure used to discard nonsense type hints and then started throwing compile errors
18:14	andyf	technomancy: Agreed that the error is preferable if this can't be used in reasonable way
18:15	Bronsa	technomancy: people write `(deftype x [] Interface (method [..] ..) all the time never realizing that's going to expand to (ns/method [..] ..)
18:15	technomancy	there is nothing reasonable about namespaced locals
18:15	technomancy	locals by definition need no namespace
18:15	technomancy	Bronsa: is this about the method name or the arglist?
18:15	Bronsa	technomancy: method name
18:15	ztellman	andyf: thanks for the heads up on that
18:15	ztellman	crazy that it's such an invisible bug
18:16	Bronsa	technomancy: clojure still silently ignores wrong type-hints btw
18:16	technomancy	Bronsa: I meant for classes that simply don't exist
18:16	Bronsa	technomancy: .. yeah
18:17	Bronsa	technomancy: it's highly inconsistent, it might throw or just ignore it depending on where you put the type hint
18:17	cfleming	andyf Bronsa: I noticed while working on my macroexpander that macroexpansions of deftype/reify/etc forms have clojure.core-qualified method names.
18:17	technomancy	Bronsa: it changed somewhere in 1.1 -> 1.3 to be more strict
18:17	andyf	Github.com/ztellman/aleph/blob/0.4.0/src/aleph/netty.clj#L277
18:18	Bronsa	technomancy: well I can't imagine how bad it was earlier then, lol
18:18	dbasch	Bronsa: and when it throws it’s not always the same exception
18:18	technomancy	anyway, I wrote code that accidentally relied on the old behaviour and was glad for the new behaviour even though it was a breaking change, because it was compile-time
18:18	Bronsa	andyf: I've felt your pain typing that url
18:20	andyf	I guess I should have said before that at least in this case, an error from taj seems preferable to Clojure's accepting it
18:20	Bronsa	cfleming: yeah defrecord has all its method impls qualified
18:20	andyf	It is quick copy and paste when not on my iPhobe (left that typo in for fun :-)
18:21	cfleming	technomancy: The one case where locals are reasonably ns-qualified is in the new :keys destructuring
18:22	cfleming	technomancy: Otherwise, right, no argument there.
18:22	amalloy	cfleming: well, that's because you're using `: macroexpansion isn't qualifying those names, you are
18:22	amalloy	,`(reify Object (toString [this] "s"))
18:22	clojurebot	(clojure.core/reify java.lang.Object (sandbox/toString [sandbox/this] "s"))
18:23	Bronsa	,(macroexpand-1 '(defrecord x []))
18:23	clojurebot	(clojure.core/let [] (clojure.core/declare ->x) (clojure.core/declare map->x) (deftype* x sandbox.x [__meta __extmap] :implements ...) ...)
18:23	Bronsa	well.
18:23	amalloy	&(macroexpand-1 '(defrecord x []))
18:23	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/let [] (clojure.core/declare ->x) (clojure.core/declare map->x) (deftype* x sandbox12103.x [__meta __extmap] :implements [clojure.lang.IRecord clojure.lang.IObj clojure.lang.ILookup clojure.lang.IKeywordLookup clojure.lang.IPersistentMap java.util.Map j... https://www.refheap.com/92715
18:23	amalloy	okay, i guess that's true. if you expand past defrecord to the deftype* phase, there are more clojure.core-qualified names
18:24	Bronsa	cfleming: in cljs it's even worse btw protocols too get cljs.core qualified and ctors too in some cases
18:24	cfleming	Right, as a user I can't avoid that happening AFAICT - not that I probably care as long as Clojure accepts it
18:25	cfleming	Just thought it was curious
18:25	andyf	Anyone have example if new namespace qualified key destructuring for me to test with?
18:25	Bronsa	,(let [{:keys [foo/bar]} {:foo/bar 1}] bar)
18:25	clojurebot	1
18:25	cfleming	andyf: I think the JIRA had examples, but I don't have it to hand.
18:25	cfleming	Or Bronsa has your back :-)
18:26	amalloy	actually, i take it back. defrecord expands into (deftype* Object (clojure.core/toString [this__auto] "whatever")), which is not an instance of this undesirable qualified names
18:26	andyf	Yes. Yes he does
18:26	cfleming	Bronsa andyf: The new Eastwood looks great BTW - I need to get those type-hint warnings into Cursive too.
18:27	Bronsa	amalloy: cfleming was talking about qualified method names not locals
18:27	amalloy	Bronsa: yes, i missed that
18:27	cfleming	Right, the clojure.core/toString in your example
18:27	andyf	cfleming: The new version is easier to call from a repl or other app, if you want to go that route
18:27	amalloy	which is sorta "old news". weird that the compiler accepts it, but once you think about it it's much preferable to the alternative
18:28	Bronsa	amalloy: agreed
18:28	cfleming	andyf: I'll have to rewrite them to work within Cursive, unfortunately - the infrastructure works in quite a different way.
18:28	amalloy	accepting qualified method arguments is the wild thing andyf noticed
18:28	cfleming	andyf: BTW this would be good to warn about too, if you can: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-865
18:29	cfleming	andyf: This bit me the other day.
18:29	amalloy	oh hey, that would be a good thing to put in a linter, i suppose
18:29	cfleming	No doubt, I'll be warning about that in Cursive when I get some time
18:30	Bronsa	cfleming: if you need hints on what to look for when warning about type hints feel free to email me
18:30	andyf	Meaning if a macro invocation has a type hint, warn that compiler will/might remove it depending on macro defn?
18:31	cfleming	Bronsa: Thanks, I will do when I get to it, definitely.
18:31	{blake}	justin_smith, It's running the tests. I can make them fail and they'll all show up. It just doesn't count them.
18:31	Bronsa	btw I've run into a super weird issue with tools.reader the other day
18:31	cfleming	andyf: Right. I think "will almost certainly remove it" is a more accurate characterisation
18:31	Bronsa	changing ` to emit c.c/sequence instead of c.c/seq caused some metadata to be lost
18:32	Bronsa	I tracked it down to sequence possibly returning a LazySeq rather than an ASeq but couldn't figure out why lazyseq were problematic
18:32	{blake}	justin_smith, So, I'll get five fail messages, but then "2 tests containing 2 assertions, 0 failures, 0 errors."
18:34	andyf	So sounds like it may be best to keep exception in t.a.j for method arguments with namespace qualifiers?
18:35	justin_smith	{blake}: weird, I've never seen anything like that
18:35	cfleming	{blake}: That does sound like the ns is not being correctly loaded somehow.
18:35	cfleming	{blake}: There are no exceptions while loading?
18:36	Bronsa	andyf: I just unstaged the changes to relax the check, amalloy and technomancy have convinced me it's not worth it
18:37	andyf	Cool. One more kind of likely-a-bug thing it can catch, then
18:43	{blake}	cfleming, While loading what? From the command lein it's just "lein auto test". No exceptions there.
18:43	cfleming	{blake}: While loading the namespace - to me it looks like your test vars are not being created correctly for some reason. If you manually require your test ns, do you get any exceptions?
18:44	{blake}	From a new REPL in cursive, I just do "(clojure.test/run-all-tests)".
18:44	{blake}	Let me try that.
18:44	cfleming	{blake}: You could also look for your test vars to make sure they're there as you expect, and that they have the clojure.test metadata attached to them.
18:45	cfleming	{blake}: i.e. (meta my-ns/my-test-var) should have some test-related entries, although I'm travelling right now and can't remember what it looks like
18:45	{blake}	cfleming, Requiring the namespace causes the tests to be run, and the errors to be shown, but no count.
18:45	cfleming	{blake}: Then that is very weird.
18:45	{blake}	cfleming, So far I've got no test vars, just running functions.
18:46	cfleming	{blake}: So you're not using deftest?
18:47	{blake}	cfleming, That could be it. I started with deftest then switched to testing.
18:47	amalloy	{blake}: if your test assertions aren't inside of a deftest form (ie, are just at the top level of your namespace), then of course lein test won't know they failed
18:47	justin_smith	yeah, that's not what testing is for
18:48	{blake}	Well, mystery solved, then.
18:48	amalloy	all tests should be inside of a deftest; testing is for finer shades of meaning within that
18:49	justin_smith	{blake}: testing is for getting more meaningful failure messages, and for grouping assertions within a test
18:50	{blake}	justin_smith, Sure. I see the admonition to use deftest on the api page, but I'm used to using RSpec (which I see this is Not Like).
18:50	{blake}	Anyway, thanks all.
18:51	{blake}	cfleming, And nice job on underlining the failed test in Cursive!
18:54	cfleming	{blake}: Thanks! Glad the mystery is solved.
18:54	cfleming	{blake}: I'd recommend checking out the clojure.test source sometime to see how it works, it's a single longish ns, and relatively easy to understand.
18:55	justin_smith	cfleming: {blake}: I am a big fan of how clojure.test leverages standard clojure features instead of trying to be a mini language for testing
18:56	{blake}	cfleming, Thanks, I'll do that. That seems to be a very effective tactic in Clojure.
18:56	cfleming	justin_smith: Agreed. I like expectations for that, too.
19:00	bbloom	help me convince don syme that value recursion is a bad idea :-)
19:00	bbloom	https://twitter.com/BrandonBloom/status/529700895765049344
19:12	{blake}	justin_smith, Oh, no argument from me. I'm coming from a language where EVERYTHING is done as a mini-language. And there are six constantly changing mini-languages for any domain. And you can't learn one of the mini-languages without learning 3 or 4 others the mini-language creator was currently enamored of at the time.
19:12	justin_smith	heh
19:13	noonian	{blake}: which language is that?
19:14	postpunkjustin	racket?
19:16	tuft	just wrote the best equivalent to the threading macro possible =)
19:17	amalloy	noonian: ruby, presumably, since he said rspec
19:17	{blake}	noonian, Ruby. Which I like a lot, don't get me wrong. But the premiere Ruby on Rails book has (IIRC) over ten technologies you have to tackle before you get to a "Hello, World."
19:17	noonian	ah
19:18	{blake}	Ooh, I outed myself. I'm actually a Smalltalk guy. And Delphi. Heh.
19:25	{blake}	(Or used to be, anyway.)
19:33	rweir	tuft, hah, mine too
19:49	{blake}	Deploying with JBOSS? Rad? Or gnarly?
19:51	jcrossley3-away	{blake}: define "JBOSS"
19:53	{blake}	jcrossley3-away, JBOSS can be whatever you want it to be! (Our devops guy said "Let's use JBOSS to deploy it". Whatever it is, it'll be a brand new box just hosting this one app.)
19:53	justin_smith	there is immutant
19:54	justin_smith	for a clojury jboss exerience
19:55	{blake}	justin_smith, I'm trying to talk him into it.
19:55	tuft	clustering in immutant seems interesting
19:55	tuft	otherwise i'd rather roll my own with libs
19:56	jcrossley3-away	{blake}: it all depends on why he wants jboss. if it's because he wants you to hand your app to him in the form of a war file, then the onus is on him to deal with jboss
19:56	{blake}	tuft, Your own deployment platform?
19:56	jcrossley3-away	immutant can make your dev experience a little nicer until you have to hand him a war file
19:56	{blake}	jcrossley3-away, Yeah, that was my argument.
19:57	tuft	{blake}: oh, i wasn't thinking about it from a deployment perspective i guess. yeah if you're stuck having to spit out a war then i guess you need the j2ee app server stuff
19:57	jcrossley3-away	{blake}: fwiw, immutant's clustering requires wildfly, so that rules out older jboss versions.
19:58	{blake}	What's the most common approach for deploying Clojure?
19:58	tuft	{blake}: i was thinking more about immutant's capabilities as an application server vs just booting up some library components and managing your own "main"
19:58	{blake}	I can probably sell whatever.
19:58	tuft	with nginx in front =)
19:59	technomancy	the most common approach is jetty uberjar
19:59	{blake}	technomancy, So...standalone?
20:00	technomancy	yeah
20:00	jcrossley3-away	tuft: {blake}: immutant 2 can do either standalone/runnable/uberjar or app server (wildfly)
20:01	tuft	jcrossley3-away: cool yeah, i saw it's more componentized
20:01	jcrossley3-away	and immutant.web's embedded undertow should be a skosh faster than jetty
20:01	{blake}	jcrossley3-away, So maybe I use jetty uberjar while I figure out Immutant?
20:01	tuft	immutant 2 isn't released yet i don't think
20:02	{blake}	OK, thanks, all. Off to experiment.
20:02	jcrossley3-away	tuft: correct, hopefully in a month or so
20:03	jcrossley3-away	and 2.0.0-alpha2 is out, certainly experiment-worthy
20:05	sdegutis	The main benefit of Clojure over Ruby so far appears to be the complete lack of worrying about method name collisions.
20:05	tuft	heh
20:14	amalloy	the main downside? a complete lack of worrying about artifact-id collisions
20:15	sdegutis	wat
20:17	dbasch	I’d say the main benefit of Clojure over Ruby is that you can look at a few lines of code and know that no horrendous monkeypatching mutation will be sending you into a random circle of debugging hell
20:17	csd_	amalloy: have you ever thought about extending 4clojure to have questions that require macros to solve?
20:19	amalloy	csd_: i have. it was a hard problem, both technically (missing features in the sandbox) and pedagogically (how do you define such a problem anyway?)
20:19	amalloy	that was years and years ago; these days i don't really do much with 4clojure besides keep it running
20:20	dbasch	amalloy: the arrow macros would be interesting pedagogically
20:21	amalloy	dbasch: we have a problem or two showing how the arrow macros are used, but none about how to write them
20:22	dbasch	I wouldn’t want to deal with getting the sandbox to allow macros securely though
20:23	amalloy	reiddraper: is (apply gen/tuple gens) functionally the same as (sequence gens)? i spent some time yesterday looking for sequence, and then stopped when i found it as a private helper function, but i now see that tuple looks like the user-facing version of that
20:25	gfredericks	amalloy: sequence is a 3-arg function, so I'm having trouble parsing your meaning
20:26	amalloy	gfredericks: i mean sequence like the haskell function whose type is given in the docstring. it's what gen/sequence would be, except it takes bind and return as args too
20:26	sdegutis	dbasch: Not true at all.
20:26	dbasch	sdegutis: which part?
20:27	gfredericks	amalloy: ah okay; it looks to me that sequence could be a bit more raw and not handle shrinking, perhaps?
20:29	amalloy	gfredericks: mabye. i don't actually plan to use gen/sequence; the fact that it's private is warning enough. but after writing my own (sequence :: [m a] -> m [a]) i realized maybe i just want tuple
20:29	amalloy	i don't know anything about how the shrinking is implemented
20:30	gfredericks	yeah I think that's what tuple is for; I've used tuple on long runtime seqs of generators with no obvious downside
20:31	gfredericks	in fact that's how vector is implemented
20:31	gfredericks	(apply tuple (repeat num-elements generator))
20:33	mdeboard	What's the purpose of the "I" convention for protocols
20:34	csd_	i'm sure this question has no good answer, but what do you guys think of rails vs node
20:34	mdeboard	csd_: They're not equivalent
20:34	mdeboard	You can't compare them. You'd need to compare like Angular or Ember to Rails
20:36	csd_	mdeboard: do you see node as sticking around?
20:37	justin_smith	$examples juxt
20:37	lazybot	http://clojuredocs.org/v/2058
20:38	justin_smith	arrdem: any interest in adding grimoir to the examples plugin while I am working on lazybot? almost done over here
20:40	sritchie	has anyone here tried to render React / Om code on the server side?
20:40	sritchie	I’m trying to use Kioo,
20:41	sritchie	and it’s failing because Nashorn has no DOMParser implementation
20:42	mindbender1	Is there a standard algorithm for inserting things anywhere in a sequential?
20:43	amalloy	mindbender1: that's a corollary to a question asked in here yesterday: go back in time to when you decided what data structure to use, and use something that supports the operations you want to perform
20:44	guest59	sritchie: I've render on the server side using nashorn
20:45	sritchie	guest59: do you have any code that tries to parse HTML?
20:46	guest59	Let me try to find the code ...
20:48	mindbender1	amalloy: that's tricky because i have had this issue on my mind for a long time and ever since playing with sequentials? I have never come across such a function in clojure unless of course I have bad re-collective memory and would rather indulge your assistance here.
20:49	amalloy	mindbender1: i mean, it doesn't exist. you can write it yourself, but if your algorithm involves inserting in the middle of an arbitrary seq that almost always means it is a bad algorithm
20:49	dbasch	mindbender1: there can’t be a standard algorithm because you don’t know the structure, but you can code a simple, generic O(n) solution
20:49	dbasch	which is probably not what you want unless you need to modify someone else’s code in a pinch
20:51	mindbender1	amalloy: exactly. I was thinking if it's not that standard then it probably means I'm not thinking right about the problem and it's solution.
20:52	dbasch	mindbender1: think about it, inserting things anywhere in a sequential structure means either shifting things, changing pointers or having empty space to begin with
20:52	amalloy	mindbender1: right. so instead of "how do i insert into the middle of a seq", the question to ask is "here's why i think i need to insert into the middle of a seq; what am i wrong about?"
20:53	arrdem	justin_smith: sure, but I think that example selection & formatting will prove problematic
20:53	arrdem	justin_smith: if anything I would want a way to say $grim <symbol> and get a link
20:54	arrdem	justin_smith: that would be kickass
20:54	amalloy	$grim fandango
20:55	guest59	sritchie: Looks like I was just testing it out. Here's the code I used - https://www.refheap.com/92723
20:55	mindbender1	But in this case I'm not sure I'll be dealing with that much elements to really affect performance. It's really vectors that I want to use and hold a number of non-rendered dom elements when something needs to change position I do that off the dom and re-render. I really don't know how to make this happen without pushing and pulling.
20:55	justin_smith	arrdem: yeah, that is what I had in mind, if you can give me the code that does that for a given symbol, I can throw it into a lazybot plugin no prob
20:55	mindbender1	I wrote an insert-at as far back as last year
20:56	mindbender1	but I'm really concerned if I'm doing it wrong
20:56	dbasch	mindbender1: the obvious O(n) way would be (concat (take n xs) [x] (drop n xs))
20:57	mindbender1	dbasch: that's exactly what i did
20:57	arrdem	justin_smith: so the munging is easy that's all in lib-grimoire
20:57	arrdem	justin_smith: you can just require that stuff
20:57	dbasch	which would not be bad if you have a small number of elements that you’re going to render (say < 100)
20:58	arrdem	justin_smith: the real issue is that for anything not in clojure.core it gets way more complex
20:58	justin_smith	arrdem: if only you had a query api
20:58	mindbender1	dbasch: yes. That much would be just about it. You think the algorithm you put up above serves well?
20:58	arrdem	justin_smith: there's a listing API in 0.4.0, but that's not done yet
20:58	justin_smith	oh, cool
20:58	arrdem	justin_smith: throw me a ticket and I'll think about a real search API
20:59	justin_smith	may make more sense to just wait and make something that uses that
20:59	mdeboard	I've seen a few decision trees/matrices about when to use types, records, protocols, etc. Anyone know where those can be found
20:59	amalloy	$google cemerick types flowchart
20:59	lazybot	[Flowchart for choosing the right Clojure type definition form \| cemerick] http://cemerick.com/2011/07/05/flowchart-for-choosing-the-right-clojure-type-definition-form/
20:59	justin_smith	arrdem: a fallback would be to ask for a full name / url index one time, and then just look things up in that
20:59	mdeboard	aha
20:59	mdeboard	thanks
20:59	amalloy	mindbender1: i mean, why do these things need to be in a particular order? is there some way you can make it a tree with a reasonable sort, instead of a list?
21:00	justin_smith	yeah, a sorted-set-by for example
21:00	arrdem	justin_smith: have you seen my var-link stuff?
21:00	amalloy	presumably there is some property of the data items themselves that makes you say "this one has to go after that one"
21:00	amalloy	encode that in the data structure, instead of in your application's list-manipulation code
21:01	mindbender1	amalloy: I think I get it. Or we can say why does it even have to be re-ordered in the first instance?
21:01	justin_smith	,(sorted-set-by #(compare (:a %) (:a %2)) {:a 0 :b 1} {:a 1 :b 3} {:a -1 :b 2})
21:01	clojurebot	#{{:b 2, :a -1} {:b 1, :a 0} {:b 3, :a 1}}
21:01	justin_smith	arrdem: no I have not
21:01	amalloy	sure, if order doesn't matter at all the question is even easier
21:02	amalloy	justin_smith: super-dangerous there, to use a compare function that doesn't agree with equals
21:03	justin_smith	amalloy: oh, good point
21:03	justin_smith	,(sorted-set-by #(compare [(:a %) %] [(:a %2) %2]) {:a 0 :b 1} {:a 1 :b 3} {:a -1 :b 2})
21:03	clojurebot	#{{:b 2, :a -1} {:b 1, :a 0} {:b 3, :a 1}}
21:03	amalloy	usually such things are better as a multimap than as a set
21:03	amalloy	or that
21:04	gfredericks	clojurebot: using a compare function that doesn't agree with equals is super-dangerous
21:04	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
21:05	amalloy	clojurebot: justin_smith \|lives\| side by side with danger
21:05	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
21:05	justin_smith	~using a compare function that doesn't agree with equals
21:05	clojurebot	using a compare function that doesn't agree with equals is super-dangerous
21:06	justin_smith	~super-dangerous
21:06	gfredericks	,(into (sorted-set-by #(compare (rem %1 2) (rem %2 2))) (range 6))
21:06	clojurebot	excusez-moi
21:06	clojurebot	#{0 1}
21:06	gfredericks	HUH.
21:06	gfredericks	I did not expect that
21:06	justin_smith	yeah, that was a goof for sure
21:06	amalloy	gfredericks: you expected #{5 6}?
21:06	gfredericks	amalloy: no, logically it's possible for it to keep everything
21:06	gfredericks	isn't it?
21:07	amalloy	gfredericks: not if it uses the compare function you gave it
21:07	gfredericks	it could also check =
21:07	amalloy	gfredericks: it's required not to do that
21:07	gfredericks	who required that?
21:07	amalloy	the Set interface
21:07	dbasch	mindbender1: all you need is for your component to know how to render your elements in order
21:07	amalloy	also Comparator, which says it must impose a total ordering
21:07	dbasch	they don’t need to be in an ordered structure necessarily
21:08	dbasch	of course it’s more efficient if it’s ordered
21:08	amalloy	there's no way for a total ordering to say "i don't care": it has to say less, greater, or equal
21:08	amalloy	and if they're equal, then duplicates must be rejected from the set
21:08	gfredericks	,(parents (class (sorted-set)))
21:08	clojurebot	#{clojure.lang.APersistentSet clojure.lang.Sorted clojure.lang.IObj clojure.lang.Reversible}
21:08	amalloy	,(supers (class (sorted-set)))
21:08	clojurebot	#{clojure.lang.APersistentSet java.lang.Runnable clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection clojure.lang.Sorted clojure.lang.IObj ...}
21:08	amalloy	&(supers (class (sorted-set)))
21:08	lazybot	⇒ #{java.util.concurrent.Callable java.util.Collection clojure.lang.IHashEq clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection java.lang.Runnable java.io.Serializable clojure.lang.Reversible clojure.lang.AFn clojure.lang.Seqable clojure.lang.IPersistentSet clojure.lang.IObj clojure.la... https://www.refheap.com/92724
21:09	gfredericks	,(reduce list (supers (class (sorted-set))))
21:09	clojurebot	((((((((((# java.util.Set) java.util.Collection) clojure.lang.Counted) clojure.lang.AFn) java.lang.Object) clojure.lang.IMeta) clojure.lang.Seqable) clojure.lang.Reversible) java.util.concurrent.Callable) java.lang.Iterable)
21:09	gfredericks	oh poop
21:09	gfredericks	almost tricked it
21:09	gfredericks	,(some #{java.util.SortedSet} (supers (class (sorted-set))))
21:09	clojurebot	nil
21:10	gfredericks	does the Set interface say anything about orders or comparators?
21:10	amalloy	gfredericks: i think i was wrong about that
21:10	amalloy	$javadoc Comparator
21:10	lazybot	Javadoc not found. Try http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/
21:10	amalloy	$javadoc java.lang.Comparator
21:10	amalloy	c'mon, man
21:11	gfredericks	okay I guess Comparator contract is a good enough reason
21:11	dbasch	gfredericks: no, Set is about no two things being equal
21:11	dbasch	they don’t need to be comparable
21:11	mindbender1	dbasch: yeah. The insert use case was if a user wanted to drag a component from it's position to another position in it's container or another container entirely. but like amalloy pointed out one has to think critically where the real sense in that lies.
21:12	gfredericks	'It is generally the case, but not strictly required that (compare(x, y)==0) == (x.equals(y)). Generally speaking, any comparator that violates this condition should clearly indicate this fact. The recommended language is "Note: this comparator imposes orderings that are inconsistent with equals."'
21:12	gfredericks	amalloy: ^
21:12	amalloy	right, but 'If the ordering imposed by c on S is inconsistent with equals, the sorted set (or sorted map) will behave "strangely." In particular the sorted set (or sorted map) will violate the general contract for set (or map), which is defined in terms of equals.'
21:12	amalloy	so it's not an illegal comparator, but using it causes you to get an illegal set
21:13	amalloy	or at least one that will surprise you
21:13	dbasch	of course you could also have an illegal set by mutating things after inserting them
21:13	gfredericks	that's strange for the Comparator docs to make claims about what sets do
21:14	dbasch	but a set of mutable things is a really bad idea
21:14	gfredericks	it also claimed a set couldn't contain itself so now I have to try
21:14	gfredericks	,(let [s (java.util.HashSet.)] (.add s s) s)
21:14	clojurebot	#{#{#{#{#{#{#{#{#{#{#}}}}}}}}}}
21:14	amalloy	hah, did it really?
21:14	gfredericks	"A special case of this prohibition is that it is not permissible for a set to contain itself as an element. "
21:15	TEttinger	##(let [s (java.util.HashSet.)] (.add s s) s)
21:15	lazybot	⇒ #<HashSet [(this Collection)]>
21:15	gfredericks	haha
21:15	kenrestivo	everything is permissible
21:15	nathan7	gfredericks: damnit
21:15	gfredericks	&(let [s1 (java.util.HashSet.) s2 (java.util.HashSet.)] (.add s1 s2) (.add s2 s1) s1)
21:15	lazybot	java.lang.StackOverflowError
21:16	gfredericks	,(let [s1 (java.util.HashSet.) s2 (java.util.HashSet.)] (.add s1 s2) (.add s2 s1) s1)
21:16	clojurebot	#{#{#{#{#{#{#{#{#{#{#}}}}}}}}}}
21:16	gfredericks	,(let [s1 (java.util.HashSet.) s2 (java.util.HashSet.)] (doto s1 (.add s2) (.add :foo)) (doto s2 (.add s1) (.add :bar)) s1)
21:16	clojurebot	#{#{:bar #{#{:bar #{#{:bar #{#{:bar #{#{:bar #} :foo}} :foo}} :foo}} :foo}} :foo}
21:17	dbasch	by “not permissible” they mean “please dont’ do it"
21:17	dbasch	don't
21:18	gfredericks	oh no...what happens if they find out?
21:18	dbasch	Oracle might sue you
21:20	gfredericks	,(into (sorted-set-by (fn [_ _] (- 100 (rand-int 200)))) (range 10))
21:20	clojurebot	#{3 8 9 6 7 ...}
21:20	kenrestivo	i would like oracle to go sue themselves.
21:21	amalloy	it will probably happen accidentally eventually, kenrestivo, if it hasn't already
21:22	kenrestivo	,(let [oracle-lawsuit (java.util.HashSet.)] (.add oracle-lawsuit oracle-lawsuit) oracle-lawsuit)
21:22	clojurebot	#{#{#{#{#{#{#{#{#{#{#}}}}}}}}}}
21:23	dbasch	in clojure we obey the laws of thermodynamics
21:24	arrdem	oh dear
21:25	gfredericks	I also looked suspiciously at it
21:25	gfredericks	I'm betting it's a weird HashSet feature
21:26	arrdem	"feature"
21:27	amalloy	well, having a .toString representation that takes up all available RAM is pretty crap for debuggers and so on
21:28	amalloy	particularly in a language where there's no better way to look at things than .toString
21:28	amalloy	so it's nice that HashSet puts in a little effort to avoid that problem
21:28	gfredericks	(inc HashSet) ;; for effort
21:28	lazybot	⇒ 1
21:32	gfredericks	oh man cljs
21:32	gfredericks	I typo'd "%" as % and all I got was a warning
21:33	nonuby	is there something like -> that bails the first non truthy value it encounters like (or (-> (first args) (Integer/parseInt)) 8080)
21:33	gfredericks	I know that's consistent with everything else it does I just feel unusually let down
21:33	gfredericks	nonuby some->
21:33	arrdem	http://grimoire.arrdem.com/1.6.0/clojure.core/some-%3E
21:33	gfredericks	though that's non-nil I think
21:33	nonuby	sweet! thanks
21:40	arrdem	&(re-matches #"clojure\.((core)\|(data)\|(edn)\|(inspector)\|(java)\|(main)\|(pprint)\|(repl)\|(set)\|(stacktrace)\|(template)\|(test)\|(uuid)\|(walk)\|(xml)\|(zip)).*" "clojure.core/concat")
21:40	lazybot	⇒ ["clojure.core/concat" "core" "core" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
21:42	arrdem	justin_smith: oneoff https://www.refheap.com/92725
21:42	arrdem	not my best regex but it'll do
21:45	lazylambda_	folks, is it possible to print a bigint without having that N tagged at the end?. Anyway that doesn't require changing the value to a string first?
21:46	TEttinger	,(.toString 10N)
21:46	justin_smith	arrdem: cool
21:46	clojurebot	"10"
21:46	TEttinger	,(.toString 1000000000000000000000000000000N)
21:46	clojurebot	"1000000000000000000000000000000"
21:46	arrdem	justin_smith: better version incomming..
21:46	TEttinger	how's that, lazylambda_?
21:47	arrdem	justin_smith: https://www.refheap.com/92727
21:48	lazylambda_	Tettinger: good enough, thanks
21:48	lazylambda_	,(str "1000000000000000000000000000000000000N")
21:48	clojurebot	"1000000000000000000000000000000000000N"
21:48	lazylambda_	hmm, I thought str calls toString
21:48	arrdem	justin_smith: note that you need to add [org.clojure-gimoire/lib-grimoire "0.2.0"] to your deps for that
21:48	Raynes	$last
21:48	lazybot	Raynes is listening to: Kanye West - Stronger (Explicit) []
21:48	Raynes	justin_smith: You're a special person.
21:48	arrdem	Raynes: 10/10 GUD SONG
21:48	Raynes	You've spent days
21:48	Raynes	DAYS
21:48	Raynes	Working on this bot.
21:49	lazylambda_	Raynes: go to bed, Grimey
21:49	Raynes	For no good reason other than the goodness of your heart.
21:49	Raynes	Mostafa!
21:49	TEttinger	lol
21:49	lazylambda_	:D
21:49	Raynes	We meet again.
21:49	TEttinger	I have done the same, but for other reasons
21:49	TEttinger	mostly people nagging me
21:49	lazylambda_	yes
21:50	arrdem	justin_smith: can you throw that up in here or in -offtopic? I want to kick it for a minute
21:50	TEttinger	lazylambda_, it's not even 7:00 PM here in Raynes' and my timezone
21:50	TEttinger	-social was it?
21:51	TEttinger	arrdem: I've kicked it plenty in ##anyone
21:51	arrdem	TEttinger: there's -social which I no longer lurk, and there's -offtopic which is me, Bronsa, justin and ambrose
21:51	justin_smith	Raynes: aww, shucks
21:51	arrdem	for the most part
21:52	justin_smith	Raynes: it was fun, and we all benefit
21:52	lazylambda_	TEttinger: I know, I was just being retarded
22:07	arrdem	@grim clojure.core/some->
22:12	technomancy	wow. beanshell.org uses comic sans with a drop shadow.
22:14	TEttinger	technomancy, that's incredible.
22:15	technomancy	TEttinger: it gets better http://beanshell.org/beany.html
22:16	TEttinger	heavily compressed gifs? http://beanshell.org/images/bshsplash3.gif the background repeats if your monitor is too wide? wow.
22:26	justin_smith	that site has the most awesome design
23:12	j0nii`	I'm trying to figure out the correct way to call protocol
23:12	j0nii`	functions which are defined inline in defrecord forms
23:12	justin_smith	j0nii`: how are you calling them now?
23:13	j0nii`	It seems like (.func record) works but is wrong since it's an
23:13	j0nii`	implementation detail
23:13	j0nii`	well I was doing it like that, then just recently switched to
23:13	j0nii`	using the namespace qualified version
23:13	j0nii`	(ns/func record)
23:13	justin_smith	(proto-ns/proto-method record) should work, where proto-ns is the namespace where the protocol is defined
23:14	j0nii`	ah, that sounds good, because it preserves the polymorphic propertes
23:14	j0nii`	ies
23:14	j0nii`	I guess I've only been thinking of using the record namespace
23:14	justin_smith	right, that way, any implementation of the protocol is called identically
23:14	j0nii`	since the protocol and records are sharing a namespace right now
23:14	justin_smith	got it
23:14	j0nii`	so I shoud fix that :)
23:15	justin_smith	they can be in the same ns, that's fine
23:15	justin_smith	but eventually some instances may not be
23:16	j0nii`	right - so is the defrecord implementation of the proto-fn not exported?
23:16	j0nii`	to clarify, if my record is in a separate ns, will
23:16	j0nii`	record-ns/proto-fn work?
23:16	justin_smith	the proto-fn belongs to the proto
23:16	justin_smith	the record gets a method
23:17	j0nii`	right
23:17	j0nii`	the method isn't exposed as a fn in the record namespace?
23:17	justin_smith	the (.method record) form
23:17	justin_smith	not as I recall, it shouldn't be
23:17	j0nii`	ok, that makes things a lot clearer, thanks
23:17	justin_smith	I'd have to make a few namespaces and check that I guess
23:18	j0nii`	well I can do that myself, and will - I don't mean to task you :)
23:19	j0ni	thanks justin_smith for your help!
23:20	justin_smith	np
23:21	nonuby	slightly OT, when search google for clojure docs on some-> and some->> it seems google strip the -> part, even when quoted, is there a way of googling these things?
23:21	justin_smith	$examples some->
23:21	justin_smith	hmm, oh, yeah, lazybot is too old for that function
23:22	justin_smith	http://grimoire.arrdem.com/ is kept up to date
23:22	justin_smith	http://grimoire.arrdem.com/1.6.0/clojure.core/some-%3E/
23:22	nonuby	justin_smith thanks
23:23	justin_smith	arrdem did all the work :)
23:23	arrdem	justin_smith: doing more work now :P
23:24	nonuby	arrdem, thanks, btw the offline version link is dead, are you aware?
23:24	arrdem	https://github.com/clojure-grimoire/grimoire/issues/131
23:24	arrdem	feel free to comment if it's something you'd like
23:24	arrdem	Grimoire 0.3.9 can be cloned and run locally
23:25	arrdem	all versions of Grimoire can be run locally
23:25	arrdem	0.4.0 will go one better, but that's not done yet :P
23:25	arrdem	the "static HTML snapshot" thing was slow to build and seldom used accoring to my logs so it's been dropped
23:25	arrdem	feel free to comment on that issue if you want it tho
23:26	nonuby	thanks, ill try running it locally first
23:30	jcsims	any idea why environ might be failing to pick up either of the recommended var forms in an uberjar?
23:31	jcsims	i.e either an env variable or a java system property
23:47	bbloom	hyPiRion: you should put dates on your blog posts :-)
23:52	sm0ke	need a little with a macro i am trying to write which given a integer returns a function with same arity
23:52	sm0ke	i have come up with the following but it doesn not work for no constants
23:52	sm0ke	https://www.refheap.com/92734
23:52	sm0ke	little help*
23:55	arrdem	dear clojure.parallel go away nobody likes you
23:55	arrdem	justin_smith: got it for real this time :D
23:56	arrdem	justin_smith: lein grim can now document arbitrary artifacts off of the classpath
23:56	justin_smith	nice
23:57	justin_smith	sm0ke: I am not sure, I think this has to do with some interaction between the let macro and your own definition
23:58	sm0ke	justin_smith: actually if you expand it you will get num cannot be cast from symbol
23:58	sm0ke	which makes sense
23:59	sm0ke	but i am not sure how to resolve it
23:59	justin_smith	sm0ke: that is because a is a symbol
23:59	arrdem	thehell...
23:59	justin_smith	and that happens because of the let macro, I think
23:59	arrdem	why is clojure.parallel not listed here
23:59	arrdem	http://clojure.github.io/clojure/
23:59	arrdem	totally part of "stock" clojure