#clojure – 2014-10-30

2014-10-30

00:00	justin_smith	chenglou: kind of figures - and then each of those items would know how to compare to one another
00:01	justin_smith	starting with "if they are they same object yes, if they have different hash-codes no" and working forward from there I guess
00:01	bbloom	oooo i did install the legacy java package on my mac b/c it apparently uninstalled the old sdk
00:02	chenglou	yeah. Someone ping me if they discover a magical, collision-free hash that can be modified in constant time =)
00:02	bbloom	when i launched intellij for the first time after yosemite
00:02	justin_smith	chenglou: lol
00:02	bbloom	could that have something to do with it?
00:03	justin_smith	different default heap sizes would be the first difference I would think of
00:06	bbloom	$ lein pprint
00:06	bbloom	Error occurred during initialization of VM
00:06	bbloom	Too small initial heap
00:06	bbloom	hmmm
00:08	technomancy	32-bit jdk?
00:10	bbloom	technomancy: java -version reports 64-bit server 1.7.0_09
00:11	bbloom	i'm not sure how to set the system default heap size for jvm
00:12	bbloom	computers hate me
00:13	bbloom	JAVA_OPTS='-Xmx768M' lein repl <- seems to do the trick
00:13	bbloom	i guess i can just put that in my shell rc
00:14	bbloom	technomancy: or is that a terrible idea that will break my computer in some unexplained way 6 months from now?
00:22	justin_smith	Raynes: amalloy: one of you have a template for what the mongodb config for .lazybot/config.clj would look like? I will add it to the default if so, otherwise I will do my best to reverse engineer the config that should be there.
00:25	amalloy	justin_smith: does it need any? the lazybot instance in here has no mongodb config. i think it just assumes a mongodb server on localhost:default-port, and that it's allowed to write to the lazybot db
00:25	justin_smith	amalloy: oh, sounds magic!
00:25	justin_smith	I'll make sure my db is on the default port then
00:25	justin_smith	and that I am whitelisted to use the db etc.
00:26	justin_smith	amalloy: shows how much I know about mongodb (jack shit)
00:27	amalloy	justin_smith: the default mongodb config is to just assume the firewall takes care of everything, so that if you can connect to localhost you have permission to do whatever
00:27	amalloy	it looks pretty clear from lazybot/core.clj that there's nothing configurable at all
00:27	justin_smith	amalloy: OK
00:27	amalloy	except you can use a db name other than lazybot if you want
00:28	dbasch	justin_smith: mongodb is webscale, almost as fast as /dev/null. That’s pretty much all you need to know.
00:28	dbasch	oh, and it has shards as its magic secret scalability sauce
00:31	justin_smith	amalloy: weird, when I run > show dbs I see a lazybot db with contents, but @help gives me a connection error? very weird
00:32	justin_smith	ahh, never mind - it's an access control exception
00:32	justin_smith	I need to do that security settings thing
00:58	raspasov	hey guys does anyone have any idea about function calls within [let] blocks - long time ago I overheard from someone that they are not the most efficient way of executing fn calls in Clojure - is there any truth to that or it does not matter?
01:00	justin_smith	raspasov: why would a function call inside a let block be less efficient? function call dispatch can be marginally cheaper if you bind the function within a let block so that you never deref the var at runtime, but even then the speedup should be minor
01:01	raspasov	I see, ok, I was just wondering if there was any truth in that statement
01:05	tolstoy_	Andfam.12
01:21	andyf	Leiningen question: I have a directory in my project containing Clojure source files that I want to be in the classpath while I run ?lein test?, but I don?t want them in :source-paths, and I don?t want them in :test-paths. Why? Because they are not source files for the project, and they are only indirectly files for testing, by being require?d from my regular test files. Any recommendations?
01:26	zRecursive	,(doc ->>)
01:26	clojurebot	"([x & forms]); Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the last item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the last item in second form, etc."
01:26	justin_smith	andyf: isn't test-resources a thing?
01:27	andyf	justin_smith: Checking Leiningen docs for such a thing...
01:28	justin_smith	andyf: it's not in the example proejct.clj, so it likely is not a thing
01:28	justin_smith	but you could set a :resource-path under the :test profile I guess?
01:28	justin_smith	:resource-paths that is
01:28	andyf	justin_smith: I have tried putting it into the :resources path in the :dev profile, and that seems to be doing reasonable things, but your suggestion sounds even better.
01:29	andyf	justin_smith: Sorry, I meant to say in the :resource-paths in the :dev profile
01:30	andyf	Do :resource-paths in a profile like :dev or :test, and a "global" :resource-paths, concatenate?
01:30	justin_smith	andyf: there is a merge that is done of the active profiles
01:30	justin_smith	I think testing pulls in :dev, :user, :test
01:32	andyf	Duh, the very first example given in output of "lein help profiles" is adding a directory to classpath in :test profile.
01:32	justin_smith	oh, nice!
01:32	justin_smith	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/doc/PROFILES.md this has some good info for showing your effective profile etc. too
01:34	andyf	Yep, lists and vectors are concatenated when merging profiles. Cool. Bob's my uncle.
01:34	andyf	(inc justin_smith)
01:34	lazybot	⇒ 111
03:30	dopamean_	i am having a nightmare of a time trying to send a simple http request
03:30	dopamean_	i know all the information im sending is accurate because when i do it in the terminal with curl i get the expected response
03:30	dopamean_	but when using clj-http i get a 400 error every time
03:31	sveri	dopamean_: did you set the :content-type and :accept key values?
03:34	dopamean_	at first no
03:34	dopamean_	because i didnt think i needed to for a post request
03:34	dopamean_	but then i did add it and its still not working. though its a little unclear to me from the api exactly how it wants the information
03:35	dopamean_	this is the offending code: (client/post spotify-access-token-url {:form_params data})
03:35	dopamean_	data is a map with all the necessary stuff in it
03:36	sveri	dopamean_: Hm, it's been almost a year since I used this and I remember having had problems too, I don't remember what exactly the problem was, but this solved my problem: :as :json in the options map
03:37	dopamean_	400
03:52	sveri	dopamean_: I had some success debugging rest services using the postman app from the google chrome store, I know you tried already with curl, but if you dont get closer to the problem I guess it's worth to try it
03:56	dopamean_	i started with postman
03:56	sveri	it does work with postman?
03:56	dopamean_	no
03:56	dopamean_	which means im not setting something correctly
03:56	dopamean_	something that curl is doing automatically
03:56	sveri	yep
03:57	dopamean_	all i specified for curl was a bunch of -d tags
03:57	sveri	I guess you just have to figure this out by trial and error
03:57	dopamean_	and then the url
03:57	dopamean_	ive been at it for 3 hours
03:57	dopamean_	https://developer.spotify.com/web-api/authorization-guide/#authorization_code_flow
03:57	dopamean_	im on step 4 of that
03:57	dopamean_	requesting the new access token
03:58	dopamean_	can you read that and tell me if there is something glaringly obvious that im missing?
03:58	dopamean_	it says send a post request and then it says request body parameters...
03:58	dopamean_	is that not form-params?
03:59	sveri	it should be
03:59	sveri	However, this is hard to debug remotely, all I can ask is if you set all the params from step 4 correctly
03:59	sveri	which you did, I guess
04:00	dopamean_	yup
04:01	dopamean_	if i left all the params off, just to see what happened, do you tihnk a 400 response would make sense?
04:01	sveri	I am sorry then, I guess I am of not much value here
04:01	dopamean_	or should it be something else?
04:01	dopamean_	its all good
04:02	sveri	Yea, that would make sense
04:04	dopamean_	hmm
04:04	dopamean_	i just sort of got it to work
04:04	dopamean_	in postman
04:04	dopamean_	changed from "form-data" to "x-www-form-urlencoded"
04:05	sveri	nice, maybe curl does some kind of auto negotiation
04:05	dopamean_	perhaps
04:05	dopamean_	now if i can just get clj-http to do the same thing
04:07	shem	dopamean_: did you check if it does a OPTIONS query first? cljs-ajax/POST does that and had me baffled for a while
04:07	dysfun	i was going to recommend http-kit which has a quite nice promise-driven API. i'm a bit mystified to find it's not on clojure-toolbox
04:08	dysfun	oh, it's under servers
04:08	dopamean_	what do you mean by options query/
04:09	shem	if i call POST with json content-type, it first does OPTIONS to the same uri
04:10	shem	and your server endpoint might be confused with that
04:10	dopamean_	maybe thats whats happening
04:10	dopamean_	i have no idea
04:16	dopamean_	well
04:16	dopamean_	i feel dumb for wasting so much time on this
04:16	dopamean_	it works fine with http-kit
04:18	sveri	dopamean_: Hehe, I wasted time on much easier things, that's part of programming
05:11	jzinedine	hey guys, anyone knows about a seed project wiring pedestal service and reagent together?
05:12	jzinedine	I'm looking for a sample app to start with, and follow the patterns to build my app.
05:49	borkdude	https://gist.github.com/anonymous/53423c327ffda7faf852
06:15	celwell	I'm using lein-beanstalk, how can I define the application name to be something other than the name I have for my lein project (defproject ...)?
06:18	celwell	Hmmm, looking at the source, this seems promising, will try: https://github.com/weavejester/lein-beanstalk/blob/master/src/leiningen/beanstalk/aws.clj#L50
06:24	Glenjamin	is anyone around familiar with figwheel? I'm trying to figure out a way to have the :on-jsload callback fire once on initial page load
06:24	Glenjamin	on a related note, thanks to everyone who recommended reagent to me the other day - it's excellent
06:38	OliverJAsh	i'm learning clojure and have a JS background. i'm familiar with functional-reactive programming. i've used RxJS. can anybody tell me if clojure’s sequence data structures (seq?) are the same concept as what Rx calls "observables"?
06:39	TEttinger	sequences are a very common type in clojure. they can be lazy seqs or finite seqs.
06:40	TEttinger	lazy seqs you can generate with something like
06:40	TEttinger	,(repeat "infinite")
06:40	clojurebot	("infinite" "infinite" "infinite" "infinite" "infinite" ...)
06:40	TEttinger	and here, clojurebot limits how many items it will print
06:41	TEttinger	you could get just two items out of an infinite lazy seq with "take"
06:41	TEttinger	,(take 2 (repeat "infinite"))
06:41	clojurebot	("infinite" "infinite")
06:41	TEttinger	seqs are printed with single parentheses, like lists
06:41	TEttinger	I'm not sure what observables are, but I hope that clears up a bit
06:42	OliverJAsh	does a sequence represent data over time? i.e. can you add new values to the sequence through time, and the data will be "pulled through", like in functional reactive programming?
06:44	OliverJAsh	i think i'm confusing seq and FRP when they are totally different things :)
06:45	TEttinger	you might be thinking of core.async (a popular clojure lib)'s concept of channels
06:45	mavbozo	in core.async, (thread) and (go) return channel
06:45	TEttinger	I can't explain channels
06:45	mavbozo	what can I do with those channel, any easy example?
06:47	mavbozo	(thread (+ 1 2))
06:48	mavbozo	never mind, found it myself
06:49	mavbozo	(def c (thread (+ 1 2)))
06:49	mavbozo	(<!! c)
06:52	shriphani	hi, anyone here used core.matrix ? I want to compute a row-sum and I was wondering if a reduce is the right way to go ?
07:06	ustunozgur	hi all, in cider, what's the easiest way to send C-M-x output to repl?
07:07	ustunozgur	that's, I want to see the output in the repl, not in the mini buffer.
07:10	mavbozo	ustunozgur: so far, the solution is to create a elisp function and bind that function to keystroke
07:11	mavbozo	ustunozgur: i found the function in the README of clojure core async tutorial here https://github.com/halgari/clojure-conj-2013-core.async-examples
07:13	ustunozgur	mavbozo: thanks ,look promising, although cider-find-or-create-repl-buffer seems to be gone. maybe renamed
07:13	mavbozo	ustunozgur: here's my elisp snippet https://github.com/mavbozo/mavbozo-dotemacs/blob/0ca56487242f5b222fc3ac7a7c8c7243b4a1a0a6/mavbozo-custom.el#L149-L164
07:14	mavbozo	ustunozgur: yeah, I still use cider 0.70
07:15	ustunozgur	thanks a lot.
07:16	ustunozgur	I slightly modified it to execute the top level form instead.
07:17	mavbozo	ustunozgur: I am still a emacs newb, I would like to see your code, thanks
07:20	ustunozgur	mavbozo: here you go
07:20	ustunozgur	https://gist.github.com/ustun/0f1a86142b95a391773c
07:20	ustunozgur	I bound to Alt-Enter
07:20	ustunozgur	so anywhere within the form will execute the outermost form in repl
07:21	mavbozo	ustunozgur: fantastic! thanks a lot
07:22	ustunozgur	this is actually slightly different from how cider sends it to the repl but good enough for my demo purposes.
07:22	ustunozgur	giving a talk today to a java user group
07:22	ustunozgur	the difference between this and cider's C-M-x is that
07:22	ustunozgur	if you are in a different namespace in cider it will send that to that namespace
07:22	ustunozgur	whereas this will send the code to the current namespace the repl is in.
07:24	mavbozo	ustunozgur: have a great talk!
07:24	ustunozgur	thank you!
07:28	edbond	I use lein new with template and it seems old version of template is used.
07:29	pandeiro	edbond: did you `lein install` the template from a local repo with the same version?
07:29	edbond	https://github.com/magomimmo/om-start-template
07:30	edbond	pandeiro, no, used lein new om-start as in Readme
07:30	pandeiro	edbond: or maybe the clojars version is behind the github
07:30	edbond	maybe I had an old version
07:30	pandeiro	edbond: no i think lein new always checks
07:30	edbond	pandeiro, thanks, I'll check clojars
07:31	pandeiro	edbond: so you could do `git clone git://github.com/magomimmo/om-start-template && cd om-start-template && lein install`
07:31	edbond	pandeiro, thanks. Clojars have more recent version that github :)
07:32	edbond	https://clojars.org/om-start/lein-template 0.0.7
07:32	edbond	https://github.com/magomimmo/om-start-template/blob/master/project.clj here is 0.0.6
07:32	pandeiro	wow that's a first
07:32	pandeiro	i think `lein new ...` should always by default get the latest version from clojars
07:34	edbond	I have 0.0.7 jar here /home/eduard/.m2/repository/om-start
07:36	edbond	yes, clojars is a bit behind. Thanks, pandeiro
07:36	edbond	(inc pandeiro)
07:36	lazybot	⇒ 2
07:38	fairuz	hey guys, if let say I open 2 terminals, with one runing lein repl. Then I modify one of my function, and compile using lein compile. Do I need to reload the repl?
07:41	clgv	fairuz: why dont you just reload the namespace of the function?
07:41	clgv	fairuz: sounds like what you describe will fail
07:42	clgv	fairuz: development gets much easier if you have editor and repl integrated since you can use commands like "evaluate that function definition in repl"
07:46	TimMc	fairuz: None of Leingingen, the default REPL, or Clojure itself will automatically reload code.
07:46	fairuz	clgv: TimMc: Ok. I'm still learning on how to develop/debugging efficiently using repl.
07:47	fairuz	so how to reload a namespace?
07:47	fairuz	redo a (use xxx)?
07:47	clgv	fairuz: use one of the editor+repl combinations or IDEs
07:47	clgv	fairuz: with :reload or :reload-all yes
07:49	fairuz	clgv: Ok cool. Does not want to start an IDE war, but what are recommended IDEs? LightTable is more than enough I suppose?
07:49	clgv	fairuz: options for dev envs are Emacs+Cider, Vim+Fireplace, Eclipse+Counterclockwise,IntelliJ+Cursive, Nightcode ... maybe others I currently forgot
07:49	clgv	ah right LightTable ^^
07:50	TimMc	fairuz: My usual pattern is this: lein repl; edit files; (require 'foo.bar.baz :reload); repeat
07:51	TimMc	I don't use lein compile because I'm not using AOT.
07:51	clgv	TimMc: you dont use any integrated editor + repl combo?
07:51	TimMc	Nope.
07:51	clgv	wow O_o
07:52	fairuz	TimMc: I just want to ask about that :) we actually don't need to compile each time we modify the files right?
07:52	TimMc	clgv: One f these days I will try setting up cider again, but the last time I tried it all fell apart.
07:52	clgv	TimMc: I am only using lein repl on remote machines and sometimes if it gets more complicated I connect with my dev env to the remote nrepl
07:52	TimMc	fairuz: Right, reloading will compile on the fly (not to disk, just in memory.)
07:53	clgv	TimMc: haha yeah, seems that cider thing breaks often surprisingly
07:53	fairuz	TimMc: got it
07:53	TimMc	clgv: I version my .emacs.d so it shouldn't be too bad once I get it working, but I need to get a stable version in there.
07:54	clgv	TimMc: last posts on the ML suggest that even the stable version might break spontaneously - no idea if thats true
07:54	TimMc	fairuz: Or usually (require '[foo.bar.baz :as f] :reload) since I'll be calling it a lot.
07:54	TimMc	clgv: This does not surprise me.
07:55	TimMc	It also doesn't really fit with my windowing preferences. I like having my REPL in a totally separate window.
07:56	clgv	TimMc: yeah thats the setup I use with counterclockwise as well
07:57	TimMc	Bronsa suggested using emacsclient in order to accomplish that, but... eh, another thing to set up the next time I want to work.
07:59	clgv	TimMc: hehe. I think I'll never leverage the power of emacs since I am not good at remembering many complicated shortcut combinations...
07:59	shem	emacs can sprout several proper windows of course
08:00	clgv	TimMc: I used it 2 months for the SBCL course exercise I was organizing
08:05	TimMc	fairuz: Oh, just a tip -- you'll eventually find yourself in a situation where you have fn B that calls A, you rewrite and reload both repeatedly, but you fail to do it in the right order, and it works in your REPL because an old version of A is in memory but B doesn't work with the A on disk.
08:06	TimMc	You should be aware that this can happen so that you'll recognize it when it does. (This gets worse with defrecords and deftypes and multimethods -- different symptoms, same essential problem.)
08:07	TimMc	`lein test` or restarting your REPL will give you a more honest view of the world.
08:14	whodidthis	how does a human being test a ring middleware that depends on another middleware
08:17	foofoobar	Hi. (first „hello“). Why is this \h instead of h ?
08:18	clgv	foofoobar: notation for character literals
08:18	clgv	,(str (first "hello"))
08:18	clojurebot	"h"
08:18	clgv	above it is a string instead of a character ^^
08:18	foofoobar	,(str \h)
08:18	clojurebot	"h"
08:18	foofoobar	ah, okay. thanks
08:18	elfenlaid	well, strings aren't sequential by default, but can transform to sequence; and sequence from string is a list of chars
08:19	clgv	elfenlaid: that's a complicate explanation. strings are arrays of chars on the jvm would suffice ;)
08:19	clgv	at least internally ;)
08:20	elfenlaid	ow, ok :)
08:22	clgv	,(mapv #(nth "hello" %) (range (count "hello")))
08:22	clojurebot	[\h \e \l \l \o]
08:29	mavbozo	whodidthis: by mocking the required middleware
08:35	fairuz	TimMc: thanks for the tip. Really appreciate any advice now since I'm just started :)
08:36	whodidthis	i liked the ((wrap-whatever identity) {:body "my-request"}) approach, whats a cool way of testing something that depends on another, should i just ((mw/wrap-something identity) ((mw/wrap-else identity) {:body "my-request"}))
08:37	whodidthis	just request parsing middleware
08:41	mavbozo	whodidthis:(-> {:body "my-request"} (mw/wrap-else identity) (mw/wrap-something identity))
08:42	mavbozo	whodidthis: threading macro -> is better
08:42	whodidthis	cool, always room for some magic
08:43	mavbozo	whodidthis: better to use threading macro -> in your case
08:43	perplexa	thread-first macro*
08:43	perplexa	:P
08:47	whodidthis	although if i want to use a threading macro thingie i guess i would have to (as-> {:body ""} _ ((mw/wrap-else identity) _) ((mw/wrap-something identity) _))
08:53	clgv	fairuz: better make your first steps with LightTable since you have already installed it ;
08:59	mavbozo	whodidthis: or, (def test-app (constantly {:body ""}))
09:00	mavbozo	whodidthis: (-> test-app mw/wrap-else mw/wrap-something )
09:16	si14	how would you translate CLJS app? I've come up with a simple macro, but it's still not obvious how to compile two different artifacts for different languages.
09:17	si14	of course I can use environ or somethings like this and do TRANLSATION=en lein cljsbuild once production, but this seems a bit messy to me
09:24	perplexa	si14: you can use #+clj and #+cljs macros, if i understand you correctly
09:24	perplexa	oh wait, you're actually talking about languages and not clj and cljs ;p
09:24	si14	perplexa: no, sorry, I meant human languages :) like compiling two different artifacts for English and Esperanto languages
09:25	perplexa	haha yeah just realised :D
09:25	perplexa	sorry
09:25	si14	:)
09:25	si14	thanks for an advice, anyways :)
09:26	perplexa	si14: i don't understand your use case.
09:27	si14	perplexa: webapp with i18n
09:27	perplexa	languages are something chosen by the client, so shouldn't you include all resources and then decide inside of your application which one to use?
09:27	perplexa	not at compile time
09:27	perplexa	that would diminish the purpose of i18n
09:30	si14	perplexa: I can compile two different artifacts and give a choice on a landing page, I think
09:30	si14	basically, two different webapps
09:31	perplexa	shouldn't be a different app at all, the logic stays the same, just the strings are different
09:31	perplexa	maybe use something like https://github.com/ptaoussanis/tower
09:32	perplexa	and decide which language to use based on browser accept headers
09:34	si14	perplexa: I also need quite a lot of language-specific resources, so it be unwieldy to include them in app if they will not be needed
09:35	ustunozgur	anyone encountering erros with swing gui (frames) not appearing with cider?
09:36	ustunozgur	it returns visible=true but the gui is no where in sight
10:01	perplexa	do people actually use type hints?
10:09	Glenjamin	generally only to remove reflection on iterop
10:09	Glenjamin	personally
10:22	justin_smith	perplexa: they can make a massive difference in performance when you need them
10:24	perplexa	justin_smith: so it's preferable to just add them :)
10:25	Glenjamin	i'd say add this https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj#L255 to your project.clj
10:25	Glenjamin	then do whatever it tells you
10:28	perplexa	Glenjamin: i'll give it a shot
10:34	si14	oh wow. pretty epic
10:34	si14	there are no externs for Web Audio API in Closure Compiler that is used by CLJS
10:36	si14	(erroneous /me, sorry)
10:36	Glenjamin	https://code.google.com/p/closure-compiler/issues/detail?id=710 looks relevant
10:38	zot1	question on idiom: i'm trying to do something like update-in, but where the "rhs" also needs the same keyed structure. my raw version is above, and my first attempt at making it generic below. suggestions on how to improve? https://gist.github.com/anonymous/90213a0f47091e287bfc
10:41	justin_smith	zot: I think there is a misplaced paren in that reduce
10:42	zot	justin_smith: could be, it was 'scratchpad' idea, although it at least parsed in the repl, i think
10:42	si14	Glenjamin: yeah, but it doesn't work now
10:42	justin_smith	,(reduce +)
10:42	Glenjamin	you can just pull in additional externs in the build config
10:42	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core/reduce>
10:42	justin_smith	zot: you should have seen that error
10:43	zot	i just pasted it again w/ no problem, although there is definitely a paren off. strange.
10:43	justin_smith	zot: anyway, unless I am mistaken, the paren to the right of ks should be before m1 in that reduce call
10:44	zot	yep i've fixed it here, and will repaste if useful :)
10:45	zot	is there a cleaner way to pull it off? the anon func for reduce is … awkward, but i haven't (so far) imagined a better way, other than maybe as a walk that update-in's the peer structure. important to note is that both trees can be sparse, so update-in, or sth else that will create missing structure, is preferred.
10:47	justin_smith	zot: I like the reduce version (the version of it with correctly balanced parens at least)
10:48	zot	justin_smith: ok, good to hear from somebody else… trying to learn with the notion of using func composition instead of tricky anon fns… and this one befuddles ;)
10:49	justin_smith	zot: I don't see a straightforward way to do this with function composition though
10:50	zot	justin_smith: ok — i'm still finding my way in clojure, so sometimes there's a super awesome way that i've just never seen, forgotten, or can't find via google :)
10:51	zot	justin_smith: tnx for taking a look!
10:53	EvanR	is there a type which is just a date, and not a java Date which is taking liberties with midnights and time zone assumptions
10:55	zot	EvanR: familiar with clj-time?
10:55	EvanR	no
10:55	zot	google it. it can probably do what you want, and way way more.
10:55	irctc	hi
10:55	irctc	:)
10:56	EvanR	ok
10:56	irctc	is this a place where a newbie can ask questions?
10:56	EvanR	also i just discovered java GregorianCalendar
10:57	andyf_	irctc: yes
10:57	ohpauleez	irctc: Most certainly!
10:57	hyPiRion	EvanR: prefer clj-time and joda-time whenever you can
10:58	EvanR	im reading the doc, it might work
10:59	irctc	i'm looking at https://github.com/aphyr/riemann/blob/master/src/riemann/email.clj at the function (defn email-event i'm trying to understand it
10:59	irctc	so [smtp-opts msg-opts events] are arguments ok so far :)
11:00	irctc	then "(let [events (flatten [events])" what does it means exactly it flattens events and places it in events?
11:00	irctc	i don't get it
11:01	Glenjamin	irctc: it takes any single item or nested sequence of sequences, and gives you a single sequence of events
11:01	irctc	why is it flattening events at all?
11:01	irctc	ok
11:01	irctc	so it suspecteed it would be nested i understand
11:01	Glenjamin	[1 [ 2 ] [3 [4] ] ] => [ 1 2 3 4]; but also 1 => [1] and [1 2] => [1 2]
11:01	irctc	and i'm allowed to override like this the same variable name?
11:01	irctc	events it flattened and named as events again...
11:01	Glenjamin	yes, a let binding runs in order and can re-bind locals
11:02	irctc	ok
11:02	irctc	then this "subject ((get msg-opts :subject subject) events)" what is the first "subject" is it a function i lost it at that point
11:03	EvanR	clj-time youre my only hope
11:03	EvanR	at least one industrial time lib may actually make sense
11:04	andyf_	irctc: I don't know exactly what the args to this function are, but (get msg-opts :subject subject) is an expression that either returns a function, or a value like a map or vector that can be used as a function
11:04	andyf_	irctc: Whatever that is, it is then called with the argument events, and the return value of that is bound to subject
11:05	andyf_	irctc: If it makes it clearer, it could be written in two lines instead like so:
11:05	andyf_	irctc: some-fn (get msg-opts :subject subject)
11:05	andyf_	irctc: subject (some-fn events)
11:06	andyf_	irctc: I should have started with your question, though: subject there is just another name that is being bound to a value in the let
11:07	irctc	ok got it about the first subject
11:07	irctc	yes its an array i missed that so we are bidning 3 items events subject and body
11:08	andyf_	irctc: yes, the let is binding 3 values to those names
11:08	irctc	so about the inner "(get msg-opts :subject subject) " its get from map named "msg-opts" the field :subject and the default would be the last "subject" if not found?
11:08	andyf_	irctc: yes
11:08	EvanR	sweet
11:08	irctc	but can i be sure there is a default "subject"? what if was not bound yet?
11:09	justin_smith	irctc: if subest was not bound yet, that would not even compile
11:09	justin_smith	,(get {} :foo foo)
11:09	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: foo in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
11:10	andyf_	It looks like the original value for subject is coming from the :use on line 5
11:10	irctc	ok
11:11	irctc	is it aggregating somehow the subjects from all the events into a single one? or the body from multiple events into a single one? i don't get how it achieves this..
11:11	andyf_	irctc: That would be much less obvious if subject were def'd in namespace postal.core, which has (:use postal.core) up near the top, since that will bring in every public def in postal.core into this namespace. That is one reason why many Clojure programmer recommend against an "unlimited" use like that.
11:12	irctc	hmmm
11:12	irctc	i see this
11:12	irctc	in riemann.common
11:12	irctc	subject is also a function named "defn subject"
11:13	irctc	so wow with a field named subject, a default value, and a function all named subject !! :)
11:13	andyf_	irctc: Again, I'm not familiar with the exact context here, but I would guess subject is a function. It can take whatever events is (probably a sequence of events), and calculate a subject line, probably a string, to use in an email message.
11:14	andyf_	irctc: riemann.common/subject is the default function to use for calculating the subject, but it can be overridden by putting a key named :subject into the map msg-opts, whose value is a different function to use instead
11:14	irctc	so in this"subject ((get msg-opts :subject subject) events)" the first subject is a "string" and third subject is a function!?
11:15	andyf_	irctc: that would be my guess
11:15	irctc	oh sorry default
11:15	irctc	in anyway the main thing that mixed me up is that subjet was a function defined something else i just looked for the concatenation somehwere..
11:15	andyf_	irctc: I am not claiming that those are the best names to use for clarity of purpose :)
11:15	irctc	:)
11:16	irctc	ok i think i got some of the subject :)
11:17	justin_smith	irctc: yeah, the naming here is kind of odd, here is a hopefully less clever and more clear version that does exactly the same thing https://www.refheap.com/92484
11:20	irctc	https://www.refheap.com/92484 --> much more clearer!!
11:20	irctc	https://www.refheap.com/92484 --> much clearer!!
11:21	andyf_	irctc: My inner grammar Nazi thanks you
11:22	perplexa	i there a better way than (* (int (/ x y)) y) to make x a multiple of y?
11:22	perplexa	without casting to an int in the middle ;p
11:22	clgv	justin_smith: tsktsk to much :use there ;)
11:22	irctc	:)))
11:22	justin_smith	clgv: I did not touch the ns form at all
11:22	andyf_	perplexa: Not much different, but you could use (quot x y) instead of (int (/ x y)) ?
11:22	perplexa	like, i have x=11, y=2, expected result is 10
11:22	justin_smith	clgv: it is just there to provide context in the function I reworkd below it
11:23	clgv	,(- x (mod x y))
11:23	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: x in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
11:23	clgv	oh comma :P
11:23	perplexa	ah yeah, andyf_! that looks a bit better :) gracias
11:23	andyf_	clgv: I'm curious -- I understand that 'unlimited' :use's like that are frowned upon in most uses, but do you use them in test code, e.g. (:use clojure.test) ?
11:24	perplexa	clgv: that also, yes ;p
11:25	perplexa	but i remember from back when i cam across some C algos that subtraction is usually more expensive than multiplication/division
11:25	perplexa	no idea how jvm handles that, it's probably bad either way :D
11:26	andyf_	perplexa: I would think that it is usually the opposite, i.e. + and - are fastest integer ops, and multiply and divide are slower. This is likely getting more historical now, as * quot and mod are probably all just as fast as + and - on integer ops on most modern processors.
11:26	justin_smith	perplexa: with out immutible data structures and laziness and runtime polymorphism, we have much bigger optimization targets than the cost difference of subtract vs. multiply
11:27	justin_smith	*with our
11:28	andyf_	clgv: I ask because right now Eastwood warns on all 'unlimited' use's, but I've been wondering whether I should disable that warning for source files in :test-paths
11:28	perplexa	mmh :)
11:29	cbryan	andyf_: or just do :require [... :refer :all]
11:29	cbryan	eastwood is fine with that
11:29	mgaare	andyf_: replacing them with (require '[whatever :refer :all]) should shut up eastwood too
11:29	mgaare	doh
11:29	cbryan	;)
11:29	Glenjamin	heh, i'm not clear why :refer :all is considered nicer than :use
11:30	andyf_	Sure. My main curiosity is, for people who frown on unlimited :use, do you use them in test code? I do, and it seems relatively common.
11:30	justin_smith	andyf_: to me :use makes sense if there is a clear "referent" namespace, where your code only makes sense if read in parallel with that namespace (whether you are wrapping it, or testing it, or extending it...)
11:30	justin_smith	andyf_: but even then, more than one :use is a problem
11:31	Glenjamin	i'd rather just list out the 5 or 6 functions i need
11:31	andyf_	justin_smith: because? Sorry, not obvious to me why.
11:31	Glenjamin	it's not that often to have a namespace with more than that many you need to use
11:31	andyf_	Glenjamin: Even in a test namespace?
11:32	Glenjamin	do you mean for clojure.test, or for the system-under-test?
11:32	justin_smith	andyf_: if the namespace is about wrapping / extending / testing one other ns, then it only makes sense in context of that ns and one would be looking at both together, with more than one ns used, that introduces the ambiguity and refactoring difficulty that to me are the real pain points in :use
11:32	andyf_	Glenjamin: either, but if you have reasons for doing it differently for each, I'm curious.
11:32	mgaare	andyf_: the more places you have to look to answer the question, "now where did this symbol come from?", the unhappier I get :D
11:32	Glenjamin	andyf_: well clojure.test, only is, testing and deftest are really used that often i'd have though
11:32	Glenjamin	system-under-test i usually :as to a single letter
11:34	andyf_	So perhaps if Eastwood never warned about (:use clojure.test), but kept its current warning for such a use of any other namespace, not many people would mind that behavior?
11:35	Bronsa	andyf_: I :use clojure.test in all my tests
11:35	andyf_	I look at Eastwood warnings on quite a few projects on a regular basis, so certain warnings I can get tired of seeing, and I imagine others woudld, too.
11:35	Glenjamin	Bronsa: how many different vars from clojure.test do you think you use often?
11:35	andyf_	Bronsa: You and nearly everyone else :)
11:35	Bronsa	Glenjamin: just is and deftest probably, but it's just too much of a hassle to :refer them
11:35	Glenjamin	i'm interested in whether :use clojure.test is habit, or because it's annoying not to
11:36	Bronsa	andyf_: which version of t.a.jvm is eastwood using atm?
11:36	andyf_	Glenjamin: Can't speak for others, but for me it is annoying to pick exactly what I want, even though it is a copy-and-paste if I wanted to go to that trouble.
11:37	Glenjamin	i don't use clojure.test very often, but i'd have expected something like [clojure.test :as test :refer (is testing)] would cover most usage
11:37	andyf_	Bronsa: Latest Eastwood release 0.1.4 is getting creaky old: t.a(.j) version 0.2.2 :-(
11:37	Bronsa	andyf_: no I mean SNAPSHOT :P
11:37	andyf_	Bronsa: Getting real close now to another release. Testing the latest masters of t.a(.j) as we type
11:37	justin_smith	Glenjamin: most would refer deftest too I think
11:38	Glenjamin	mm
11:38	andyf_	I think I just committed that about an hour ago
11:38	Glenjamin	but still, not many, out of the, what?, 20 or so vars in there
11:38	Bronsa	andyf_: ah cool, asking because 0.6.3 should be more than twice as fast than 0.2/0.3
11:38	Glenjamin	i count 29 vars
11:39	Bronsa	,(require 'clojure.test)
11:39	clojurebot	nil
11:39	Bronsa	,(count (ns-interns 'clojure.test))
11:39	clojurebot	40
11:39	justin_smith	,(count (ns-publics 'clojure.test))
11:39	clojurebot	37
11:39	andyf_	Glenjamin: I think everyone who uses clojure.test uses deftest and is. A fraction use testing, and an even smaller fraction use are
11:39	justin_smith	use would only give us the publics, right?
11:40	Bronsa	justin_smith: ah yeah
11:40	andyf_	Glenjamin: Past that, I haven't even looked at what else is in clojure.test
11:40	justin_smith	Bronsa: though for compilation tooling you usually care about the interns, I am sure :)
11:40	Glenjamin	mostly stuff to run tests
11:41	justin_smith	and fixtures!
11:41	justin_smith	I guess those count as running stuff actually
11:41	Glenjamin	fixtures would probably be ok using test/use-fixtures ?
11:42	justin_smith	Glenjamin: sure, I usually use test/testing too, and in many namespaces I even do test/is
11:49	andyf_	justin_smith: You've stunned the room into silence with that one. We are all mentally reeling :)
11:50	justin_smith	haha
11:58	donbonifacio	can I deconstruct a variadic function to a hash? (defn hey [hash-obj] ...) and call (hey :name "Lucy" :age 1)
12:02	gfredericks	(defn hey [& {...}] ...)
12:04	cbryan	is there a preferred pastebin for this channel?
12:04	benzap	if I understand correctly, gfredericks is saying that optional arguments when passed to a function are presented as a list after the set of arguments through a defined var (defn [x & args] ...) where 'args' is a list of arguments succeeding the the variable 'x'
12:05	noonian	cbryan: refheap
12:05	justin_smith	,((fn [& {a :a b :b}] [a b]) :b 2 :a 1)
12:05	clojurebot	[1 2]
12:06	justin_smith	benzap: he meant that ^
12:06	benzap	justin_smith: thank you for clarifying
12:07	donbonifacio	thanks justin_smith gfredericks
12:07	justin_smith	donbonifacio: another thing is that using rest args map destructuring is controversial
12:07	benzap	i didn't supply a name for defn, so my example is probably confusing
12:07	justin_smith	donbonifacio: it is often easier to just use a hash as an argument
12:07	cbryan	is there a more idiomatic way to write this? the (some? (some ...)) feels wrong https://www.refheap.com/92486
12:07	donbonifacio	I see
12:08	whodidthis	if a human being, using yesql, has (defqueries "file.sql") in a file, can the queries be referred to from another file
12:08	justin_smith	donbonifacio: for example if you want to provide that set of keys / values to some function, and you have them in a map already
12:08	benzap	this actually brings up something that bothers me regarding defprotocol, where you are limited to providing nothing but arguments, with no & rest statements
12:08	benzap	but i'm guessing this a limitation when trying to communicate with a java interface
12:08	justin_smith	whodidthis: by requiring that namespace and accessing them from said namespace, right?
12:10	whodidthis	right
12:12	justin_smith	whodidthis: yeah, yesql just creates a call to def https://github.com/krisajenkins/yesql/blob/master/src/yesql/types.clj#L51
12:12	justin_smith	so you can access it as you would any other def from another ns
12:14	whodidthis	sweet
12:24	SagiCZ1	the other i read something about meta data.. and i wanted to ask, would it be possible to save some kind of benchmark data to some functions in my program, and look for bottlenecks this way? i was thinking, that each time the function gets called, it updates its own metadata, thats possible right? and can i extract this metadata later? i would like to implement this with minimal impact to my existing program
12:24	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: profilers do a much better version of this
12:24	justin_smith	jvisualvm comes with the jdk, yourkit is popular (and you can get it free for open source work)
12:25	SagiCZ1	justin_smith: i've tried a profiler but showed some low level clojure core functions as hot spots.. useless for me
12:26	noonian	cbryan: i think you can leave off the some? calls since everything in clojure except nil and false is truthy in conditionals
12:26	Glenjamin	maybe that means your app isn't slow?
12:27	SagiCZ1	Glenjamin: there is one of my functions which could be improved from linear to constant time, and the profiler wasnt able to identify this.
12:27	cbryan	noonian: ah cool! thanks
12:27	justin_smith	Glenjamin: more likely just a forst / trees issue, with noise from the lower level stuff that the functions are constructed from
12:27	Glenjamin	SagiCZ1: if it wasn't a hotspot, then it suggests that n is small enough that the constant factor / overhead dwarfs the time complexity
12:28	SagiCZ1	Glenjamin: i think it suggest, that jvisualvm is maybe good for java but not so much for clojure
12:28	Glenjamin	i've managed to use it very well on clojure, and speed up clojure functions which were bottlenecks
12:29	Glenjamin	are you running the profile on your app generally, or while running a specific bit of code?
12:29	SagiCZ1	Glenjamin: it is running some heavy computation that takes minutes to finish
12:29	SagiCZ1	in the list of functions that the profiler identifies there is non of my own functions..
12:29	Glenjamin	and you start profiler, run computation, stop profiler?
12:30	SagiCZ1	yes
12:30	Glenjamin	are you using the top-down view?
12:30	Glenjamin	or just looking at self times?
12:31	SagiCZ1	Glenjamin: i was sorting them by time
12:33	Glenjamin	try using the top-down view, it'll let you drill down by times that include the timing of the functions that call
12:36	SagiCZ1	Glenjamin: is there a difference between 'sampler' and 'profiler'? in jvisualvm?
12:36	Glenjamin	the only difference i've seen is that i've never got the profiler to work, but i have got the sampler to work :)
12:36	SagiCZ1	Glenjamin: same here
12:38	SagiCZ1	Glenjamin: where would i find the top down view?
12:38	justin_smith	I've seen the profiler work for heap profiling
12:41	SagiCZ1	Glenjamin: also, is it wrong, that i am profiling the repl running the task?
12:46	EvanR	is there a function to take a value, return it unless nil, in which case throw an exception
12:46	SagiCZ1	i have found some info by using the "snapshot" option ... not sure what it all means
12:46	justin_smith	(assert v)
12:46	justin_smith	err, no
12:47	justin_smith	,(and (assert v) v)
12:47	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: v in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
12:47	EvanR	fantastic
12:47	EvanR	,(assert 3)
12:47	clojurebot	nil
12:47	justin_smith	oh wait...
12:47	justin_smith	not and
12:47	justin_smith	,(do (assert 3) 3)
12:47	clojurebot	3
12:47	justin_smith	,(do (assert nil) nil)
12:47	clojurebot	#<AssertionError java.lang.AssertionError: Assert failed: nil>
12:47	EvanR	,(assert false)
12:47	clojurebot	#<AssertionError java.lang.AssertionError: Assert failed: false>
12:48	EvanR	looks like a function is in order
12:48	justin_smith	there is that too - perhaps you want something using nil?
12:48	justin_smith	,(do (assert (not (nil? false))) false)
12:48	clojurebot	false
12:50	EvanR	can i customize the error message
12:51	justin_smith	,(assert nil "that should not have been nil")
12:51	clojurebot	#<AssertionError java.lang.AssertionError: Assert failed: that should not have been nil\nnil>
12:51	EvanR	,(assert false "foo")
12:51	clojurebot	#<AssertionError java.lang.AssertionError: Assert failed: foo\nfalse>
12:52	EvanR	,(assert false nil)
12:52	clojurebot	#<AssertionError java.lang.AssertionError: Assert failed: \nfalse>
12:56	justin_smith	EvanR: you can also use :pre in functions
12:56	EvanR	in this case im making sure the result is not nil before returning it
12:56	justin_smith	,(map (fn [x] {:pre [(not (nil? x))]} x) [0 1 2 nil 3])
12:56	clojurebot	#<AssertionError java.lang.AssertionError: Assert failed: (not (nil? x))>
12:57	justin_smith	,(map (fn [x] {:post [(not (nil? %))]} x) [0 1 2 nil 3])
12:57	clojurebot	#<AssertionError java.lang.AssertionError: Assert failed: (not (nil? %))>
12:57	EvanR	checking the input is not nil as a post action?
12:57	justin_smith	that's not input
12:57	justin_smith	% stands for the potential return value
12:57	EvanR	x?
12:57	EvanR	oh
12:58	EvanR	could be good
12:59	justin_smith	,(map (fn [x] {:post [(not (nil? %))]} [x]) [0 1 2 nil 3])
12:59	clojurebot	([0] [1] [2] [nil] [3])
12:59	justin_smith	does not trigger, because not nil any more
13:03	justin_smith	EvanR: another factor here is that you can decide at runtime whether asserts are checked (and this includes :pre and :post condition asserts)
13:03	justin_smith	so the consequences there are twofold: you can be more ambitious about assertion and not worry too much about the effect on performance, and if you want real exception handling don't use assertions
13:03	EvanR	production mode seems like the last place i want to omit debug support
13:05	EvanR	yeah this is not exception handling
13:06	justin_smith	if you are writing a lib, you should consider the fact that users of the lib are allowed to turn assertions off
13:06	justin_smith	so assertions should be used as a dev-time verification of correctness of code, rather than a debugging-of-runtime-condition thing (maybe logging is a better fit for that?)
13:07	technomancy	contracts!
13:07	technomancy	or something
13:07	EvanR	if they turn assertions off, it shouldnt matter, because they shouldnt be happening
13:07	EvanR	the errors
13:07	justin_smith	technomancy: schema!
13:08	technomancy	racket!
13:09	justin_smith	EvanR: well we do have core.typed for typechecking code, and schema for runtime data validation
13:09	EvanR	i looked at core.typed, i did not understand the filters part
13:09	EvanR	and schema refers to prismatic?
13:10	justin_smith	yeah, prismatic/schema provides tools for verifying certain properties of clojure data
13:10	EvanR	it sounds good
13:10	justin_smith	things like "this has to be a map with the :a key having a number value"
13:11	EvanR	in this particular case, its asserting that what im looking for in a dictionary is actually there
13:11	EvanR	rather than a structural assertion
13:11	justin_smith	EvanR: right, so you could describe the dictionary with a schema as always having a value at a particular key
13:11	justin_smith	that is a structural assertion
13:11	EvanR	the keys are dynamic
13:12	justin_smith	EvanR: schema doesn't fully describe the data
13:12	noonian	EvanR: you can do that too i believe
13:12	justin_smith	it just says "it at least needs this kind of value in this place"
13:12	EvanR	which place?
13:12	justin_smith	the one you specify!
13:13	justin_smith	as I said above, for example you could specify "this is a map, it has a key :a, the value at that key is a number"
13:13	justin_smith	that is a schema
13:13	EvanR	this is another mismatch on usage of a map
13:13	EvanR	its not a record, its a lookup table
13:14	justin_smith	EvanR: then use deftype
13:14	EvanR	all i can say about it is its a map with String keys and the values are vectors
13:14	noonian	maps are often used as records in clojure
13:14	EvanR	i know this.
13:14	EvanR	i am not using it as one here
13:14	noonian	you can describe what you just said you the schema library is all justin_smith is saying
13:14	justin_smith	EvanR: and exactly what you said is expressable as a schema
13:15	EvanR	justin_smith: runtime checking this fact how often?
13:15	EvanR	on inserts?
13:15	justin_smith	EvanR: checking it when you invoke the check, that's up to you, they just provide the checker. I think there is a shortcut for doing it on the arg on each invocation of a function. But you can invoke the checking wherever.
13:16	justin_smith	EvanR: it's not a typing system, it is a validation tool
13:16	noonian	yeah, you can either annotate the fns metadata so it is always run with validation or you can only validate it when you want to
13:16	EvanR	yeah so all i was saying is that a check that the particular key i need is there isnt a schema thing
13:16	justin_smith	how not?
13:17	noonian	we're talking about the library called schema, not the abstract concept of what a schema is
13:17	EvanR	its a map from strings to maps, not even known to be non empty
13:18	EvanR	thats about all i can think of using schema for in this case
13:18	noonian	which is a perfectly valid use case for schema
13:18	noonian	if you care to ensure that the data you get conforms to the specification you just said
13:18	EvanR	a runtime lookup that a key is there, that i am already looking up anyway, i dont see a library here
13:18	noonian	sure, thats up to you
13:19	justin_smith	EvanR: I can understand if you don't like this abstraction, but this abstraction does address your data validation issue
13:19	EvanR	so... it equips a map with some extra stuff to never return nil?
13:19	EvanR	all lookups return something?
13:19	justin_smith	no
13:19	EvanR	ok because that would seem like a weird role for something called schem
13:19	mgaare	you use it to instrument your functions, iirc
13:20	EvanR	it makes total sense to describe record structures
13:20	noonian	it doesn't modify a map, it describes what a map at a certain part of your program is expected to look like
13:20	justin_smith	EvanR: it is an abstract description of a data structure, and a function that tells you whether the input data matches that description
13:20	noonian	you annotate the function, not the data
13:20	EvanR	the exact structure of my dynamic lookup table at runtime might be describable with dependent types or something
13:21	EvanR	i would need a program to run to describe exactly which keys are in there
13:21	EvanR	and really it doesnt matter, as long as im not ending up with an invalid key
13:21	justin_smith	EvanR: schema doesn't fully describe the keys, but validates that set of properties you ask it to validate
13:22	noonian	(def my-schema {s/Keyword s/Any}) describes a map of keyword keys to anything
13:22	noonian	you could ensure that the values are maps of course
13:22	noonian	or that the keys are a subset of a specific set of keywords
13:23	justin_smith	noonian: or that at least key foo is present, with a value of type F
13:23	EvanR	yes that makes sense
13:23	EvanR	that though would not
13:23	EvanR	neither would, for my case
13:24	noonian	'its a map from strings to maps, not even known to be non empty'
13:24	noonian	you can describe that easily
13:24	EvanR	id like an environment that separates the concept of records from A -> B maps to avoid confusion on the topic
13:24	noonian	{s/Str {s/any s/any}}
13:24	EvanR	noonian: not even known to be non empty, is a non-constraint
13:24	justin_smith	EvanR: in clojure records (as defined by defrecord) are maps
13:25	EvanR	the situation is very simple
13:25	EvanR	justin_smith: i understand its all the same here
13:25	justin_smith	not if you use deftype
13:25	EvanR	so they are the same but not
13:25	justin_smith	which I brought up before, if you want a type, use deftype
13:26	EvanR	that would make sense, today i have not brought up any usecase for a record / type
13:26	EvanR	yesterday though i was talking about records, and people thought i was wanting to know about lookup tables, uniform keys values
13:26	EvanR	very frustrating
13:27	justin_smith	EvanR: does clojure even have any concept of uniform keys in a lookup table? other than numeric index I guess
13:27	EvanR	uniform key type
13:27	EvanR	string, keyword, number
13:27	EvanR	the values is the more interesting thing to be uniform
13:28	justin_smith	but we have no abstraction (other than arrays / vectors) that has uniform key type as a property
13:28	justin_smith	not to mention values!
13:28	EvanR	not unexpected
13:29	EvanR	does prismatic schema allow recursive schemas
13:30	justin_smith	EvanR: https://github.com/Prismatic/schema/issues/35 addressed here
13:30	technomancy	amalloy_: I remember you saw a use of flatten in lein that was somewhat justified? was it in lein clean?
13:31	EvanR	yurg, cyclic data structure is not what i was expecting
13:32	justin_smith	EvanR: a schema is a data structure, a recursive schema would need to be a cyclic data structure
13:32	EvanR	seems like a limitation of the schema rep
13:32	justin_smith	OK
13:33	justin_smith	EvanR: the set of concerns / interests you have here makes me wonder if you wouldn't prefer using scala over clojure. Not saying "get out of here if you feel that way", just I think scala dev is more aligned with those concerns.
13:33	noonian	schema supports recursive schemas now: https://github.com/Prismatic/schema/wiki/Recursive-Schemas
13:33	justin_smith	(inc noonian)
13:33	lazybot	⇒ 9
13:33	noonian	i think they just don't guarantee them to be fast when validating
13:33	justin_smith	noonian: I guess I found some out of date info
13:33	EvanR	good enough
13:34	noonian	justin_smith: yeah, that issue was closed at the bottom by an accepted PR :P
13:34	justin_smith	noonian: haha, reading ftw
13:35	EvanR	since i have all this java stuff set up i guess it wouldnt be out of realm of possibilities to install and try scala
13:35	EvanR	but seems scary as hell
13:35	justin_smith	EvanR: agreed
13:36	justin_smith	EvanR: for example, this type signature freaks me out https://twitter.com/extempore2/status/430341743779659776
13:37	EvanR	wtf
13:37	robstory	there are scarier things, like clobbering immutable namespace with a single import: https://gist.github.com/wrobstory/60750cec022650bf27b1
13:37	justin_smith	EvanR: but clojure has its wtfs too, as we both know
13:39	justin_smith	robstory: does that prevent the original immutible version from being avaialable, or change which version library code would end up using?
13:40	{blake}	I'm trying to get a form going with hiccup and keep getting a "Key must be integer" exception.
13:40	amalloy	{blake}: you have too many parens probably
13:40	{blake}	Minimal example: (defn test-form []
13:40	{blake}	(f/form-to [:post "/posts/new"]))
13:40	amalloy	,([:x] [:y])
13:40	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Key must be integer>
13:40	{blake}	amalloy, Too many parens? Unpossible!
13:40	EvanR	you can never have too many parens
13:41	{blake}	Well, that's what I thought. I'm copying and pasting examples from git and elsewhere, and the common thread is that error.
13:42	robstory	justin_smith: for the former, you can still call scala.collection.mutable.Set, and have to do so explicitly. For the latter, I do not believe it would trickle down into lib code. Should stay contained in that particular scope.
13:42	{blake}	amalloy, Oh...so...okay, that's an error you get when you've executed a function you didn't want and made something a parameter you didn't mean.
13:43	amalloy	well, when you try to call a vector with something that's not an integer
13:43	{blake}	I need that macro thing. macroexpand!
13:46	{blake}	Well, that didn't help.
13:46	noonian	,(get [1 2 3] :foo)
13:46	clojurebot	nil
13:46	noonian	hmm
13:46	noonian	,([1 2 3] :foo)_
13:46	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Key must be integer>
13:47	amalloy	{blake}: i think you need a less minimal example, because that one looks fine
13:48	amalloy	noonian: get is more forgiving; it works on anything, and never throws an exception
13:48	noonian	interesting
13:49	amalloy	well, "never". you could create a type that responds to get by throwing an exception, but you'd have to do it on purpose
13:51	dbasch	,(get get get get)
13:51	clojurebot	#<core$get clojure.core$get@48b1ca>
13:51	dbasch	^ four get
13:51	justin_smith	dbasch: I only just now realized it was a rebus
13:52	justin_smith	,((get get get get) (get get get get) (get get get get) (get get get get))
13:52	clojurebot	#<core$get clojure.core$get@48b1ca>
13:56	turbofail	we need to go deeper
13:58	noonian	sounds like a job for ben affleck and bruce willis
13:58	amalloy	,((fn [n] (nth (iterate (fn [get] (get get get get)) get) n)) 10) ;; arbitrarily deep, with example tenth-order usage
13:58	clojurebot	#<core$get clojure.core$get@48b1ca>
13:59	amalloy	plus, i got to write six gets in a row
14:00	justin_smith	(inc amalloy)
14:00	lazybot	⇒ 182
14:22	technomancy	amalloy: hey, I remember you saw a use of flatten in lein that was somewhat justified? was it in lein clean?
14:23	amalloy	technomancy: that's the only use of flatten in leiningen at all, now that i've removed the others
14:23	technomancy	amalloy: I just got a PR for lein clean that uses it and I almost flipped out
14:23	amalloy	i'm not really convinced it's justified, but taking it out could break back-compat in ways i'm not competent to diagnose
14:23	technomancy	but then I took a closer look, and it seems necessary to support both singular and plural paths
14:23	technomancy	:classes-path vs :source-paths
14:24	amalloy	you still don't need a whole flatten for that, just (mapcat (fn [x] (if (coll? x) x [x])) whatever)
14:25	technomancy	true, but that's super noisy in comparison
14:25	amalloy	sure. but you can define that somewhere, and then use it in a non-noisy way. call it squish-a-little
14:26	justin_smith	sounds like we need a version of concat that takes both collections and single items (and would look a lot like amalloy 's anonymous fn above)
14:26	hiredman	venial-flatten
14:26	justin_smith	haha
14:27	amalloy	(inc hiredman)
14:27	lazybot	⇒ 60
14:29	technomancy	trying to keep my LOC numbers down here amalloy, geez
14:29	amalloy	dem bytes ain't cheap
14:30	technomancy	if we get within an order of magnitude of the lines of sbt we won't be allowed to make fun of them as effectively
14:32	TimMc	technomancy: Longer lines.
14:33	turbofail	you can still make fun of them for taking a ridiculously long time to do anything
14:33	technomancy	turbofail: let he who is without sin cast the first stone
14:35	turbofail	lein seems to do most operations significantly faster
14:35	turbofail	even with the clojure startup time
14:35	EvanR	how would venial flatten know if you really wanted to flatten something or treat it as a "single item"
14:36	justin_smith	EvanR: it only flattens the args, not any of their contents
14:36	TimMc	EvanR: coll?
14:37	EvanR	i guess i should have specified, how would it know if you wanted to flatten a coll
14:37	EvanR	a subcoll
14:37	justin_smith	EvanR: if you wanted that, you are calling the wrong function
14:37	amalloy	EvanR: easy: you don't, or you wouldn't have called venial-flatten
14:38	justin_smith	,(defn venail-flatten [& args] (apply concat (map #(if (coll? %) % [%]) args)))
14:38	clojurebot	#'sandbox/venail-flatten
14:38	amalloy	it's like, how does + know you don't want to multiply one of the items instead?
14:38	turbofail	asking the important questions
14:38	justin_smith	,(venial-flatten "a" ["b" "c" ["d"]] ["e" "f"])
14:38	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: venial-flatten in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
14:38	EvanR	i misunderstood the purpose here, its concats args
14:38	amalloy	justin_smith: s/apply-concat+map/mapcat/
14:38	EvanR	rather than flattening something
14:38	justin_smith	ahh, yeah
14:38	justin_smith	,(defn venial-flatten [& args] (mapcat #(if (coll? %) % [%]) args))
14:38	clojurebot	#'sandbox/venial-flatten
14:39	justin_smith	,(venial-flatten "a" ["b" "c" ["d"]] ["e" "f"])
14:39	clojurebot	("a" "b" "c" ["d"] "e" ...)
14:39	justin_smith	EvanR: right, but it replaces a use case where otherwise flatten got called
14:39	EvanR	another thing i was thinking of was, your structure might not have enough info in it to tell an operation what to do with it, would be another style if it did
14:39	amalloy	i think the version of it that would be useful for lein doesn't take &args, but sure, a general one might
14:40	{blake}	amalloy, You're right; because the error is in the calling code, which is trying to call the result of the routine.
14:40	justin_smith	EvanR: yeah, this is reading a config file (project.clj)
14:40	justin_smith	EvanR: as such it has "conveniences" for the writer
14:40	amalloy	{blake}: speaking of which: stacktraces!!! so important. it would be pretty easy to have told you that, if you'd gisted a stacktrace along with the error message
14:41	{blake}	amalloy, OK, I have another opportunity, since it's back. =P
14:41	EvanR	,(concat [1] [2] [3] [4])
14:41	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4)
14:41	turbofail	we need a "fatten" function. though i'm not exactly sure what it will do
14:41	EvanR	,(concat [1] [2] 3 [4])
14:41	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long>
14:42	EvanR	,(concat [1] [2] #{3} [4])
14:42	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4)
14:42	amalloy	turbofail: ##((fn fatten [x] (nth (iterate list x) 10)) 5)
14:42	lazybot	⇒ ((((((((((5))))))))))
14:42	turbofail	this will suffice
14:42	EvanR	,(concat [1] [2] {3 5} [4])
14:42	clojurebot	(1 2 [3 5] 4)
14:42	EvanR	yurg
14:43	justin_smith	,(seq {4 5 6 7})
14:43	clojurebot	([4 5] [6 7])
14:43	EvanR	,{1 2 3}
14:43	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Map literal must contain an even number of forms>
14:43	justin_smith	,(flatten {4 5 6 7})
14:43	clojurebot	()
14:43	EvanR	im glad that case is taken care of
14:44	amalloy	justin_smith: a classic
14:45	{blake}	justin_smith, Wow, that's really flat.
14:45	justin_smith	{blake}: inorite
14:45	EvanR	very zen
14:46	{blake}	So, here's my new "key must be integer" (now! with stack trace!) https://www.refheap.com/92490
14:46	justin_smith	(dec flatten)
14:46	lazybot	⇒ -4
14:46	{blake}	lol
14:46	EvanR	(dec flatten)
14:46	lazybot	⇒ -5
14:47	{blake}	Hiccup seems easy enough to use, but not being able to figure out how to glue it into my ring app is why I started rolling a few simple routines to do my own HTML.
14:51	justin_smith	{blake}: I think the issue could have to do with the ambiguity of providing a function to be called on the request, vs creating the response inline. I haven't used compojure in ages, but you are clearly directly specifying a response with one route, while naming a function to be called in another
14:52	{blake}	justin_smith, Hmmmm.
14:54	justin_smith	what happens if you change the first route to do (test-form spreadsheet)
14:54	{blake}	justin_smith, OK, thanks. Let me see if I can't find out how those are supposed to work together.
14:55	csd_	Is it necessary to escape user passwords when developing a web app?
14:56	mgaare	csd_: are you not hashing user passwords?
14:56	csd_	i am--good point
14:57	EvanR	users should be allowed to put any text they want for a password
14:57	csd_	how do you guys guard against sql injection
14:57	csd_	in general
14:58	amalloy	csd_: always use parameterized queries, of course
14:58	amalloy	never ever ever ever write (str "insert into x (password) " user-password)
14:59	EvanR	ideally the library doesnt even let you use a string
14:59	amalloy	meh
14:59	csd_	amalloy: korma/jdbc are fine though right?
14:59	amalloy	csd_: sure, as long as you never build query strings yourself
15:00	amalloy	EvanR: i think it'll be a few more generations before we see a no-strnigs sql library that actually lets you do the things you want to do and is as approachable/flexible as sql
15:00	EvanR	in clojure?
15:00	dbasch	passwords should be hashed as soon as possible on the server, and the plaintext forgotten forever
15:01	EvanR	if you use a query type which is almost like strings but doesnt support strcat that would do it
15:02	EvanR	where ? and ?? are replaced with args or lists of args
15:02	mgaare	then you've lost composability
15:02	amalloy	mgaare: well, you don't really have that with sql anyway. it's not much of a loss
15:03	mgaare	I felt like this had some good ideas, just didn't quite get there: https://github.com/LauJensen/clojureql
15:04	amalloy	mgaare: right, it's the lisp curse: 20 different people each solving 80% of the same problem
15:05	mgaare	I've got some ideas for yet another crack at the problem
15:05	EvanR	just drop sql the language
15:05	dbasch	that happens in every language, someone solves the interesting 80% of something and never gets to the tedious 20% that would take forever
15:06	csd_	coughlighttablecough
15:06	mgaare	one insight for me is that combining query generation with query executiotn is a mistake
15:07	{blake}	csd_ lol
15:08	EvanR	in what sense are they combined?
15:08	amalloy	dbasch: you've read the lisp curse, i presume?
15:09	dbasch	yes
15:09	mgaare	EvanR: in the sense that many libraries are built around doing both together
15:10	EvanR	im sure youre right but which one are you thinking of
15:10	mgaare	korma, clojureql, hyperion are a few off the top of my head
15:11	EvanR	looking at korma, wow jeez
15:12	EvanR	i guess this is for quick and dirty
15:12	clojurebot	Ok.
15:13	EvanR	you can wrap these in lambdas, but good luck mixing and matching where clauses
15:13	mgaare	Chris Granger later on said he regretted the way he designed korma, that it was the result of being new to the language and applying too much thinking from elsewhere
15:14	EvanR	now im even more curious, elsewhere where?
15:14	csd_	as someone who just recently used korma id love to know a better alternative
15:14	turbofail	honeysql is an example of a library that doesn't combine the two
15:14	mgaare	other languages
15:14	mgaare	there's a lot of ActiveRecord influence in there
15:14	EvanR	right that one
15:15	justin_smith	mgaare: ahh, so he was a rubyist?
15:15	mgaare	yeah, HoneySQL is pretty good
15:15	mgaare	justin_smith: I'm not sure of his full background. I know that he used to work at Microsoft on VS
15:16	justin_smith	mgaare: ahh, you are referring to the general active record concept, not the specific ruby lib called ActiveRecord?
15:16	turbofail	honeysql has some issues of its own, don't remember exactly what they were
15:16	{blake}	"The Lisp Curse" is brilliant. And reminds me of my desire to implement Clojure in Smalltalk.
15:17	dbasch	aka ORM
15:17	dbasch	years ago I had an employee who implemented his own ORM in Java because he didn’t like Hibernate
15:17	mgaare	justin_smith: yeah, I just think of ruby's ActiveRecord being so dominant in mindshare that I sometimes use the terms interchangeably
15:17	rubber_duck	why do people bother wrapping up SQL :\
15:18	rubber_duck	YeSQL takes care of the nasty string embedding issues
15:18	rubber_duck	one of the primary reasons I use clojure is because it works with data so nicely it's super easy to consume results of raw SQL queries
15:18	justin_smith	mgaare: from some googling I discover there is also a lib called ActiveRecord for php
15:18	dbasch	rubber_duck: because at some point people thought that you could abstract away the fact that there was a sql database under your persistent object store
15:19	turbofail	rubber_duck: sometimes i want to generate queries, not merely paramterize them on data
15:19	justin_smith	dbasch: because the differences in semantics between your object system and the database are just useless noise, of course :) you can just ignore them
15:19	mgaare	rubber_duck: ah, yesql looks pretty cool. Hadn't seen this before
15:20	rubber_duck	turbofail, aside from trying to implement a custom DSL -> SQL compiler I think I'd still rather work with strings
15:20	dbasch	justin_smith: there’s even a wikipedia page for the concept http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-relational_impedance_mismatch
15:21	turbofail	rubber_duck: suit yourself. i happen to think working with strings is a disaster
15:21	EvanR	"oop vs relational war"
15:21	EvanR	circa 1991
15:21	mgaare	it reminds me of how things worked with html libraries somewhat... I used enlive for a while, super complex and powerful, eventually said "f it" and went all the way over to selmer
15:22	mgaare	yesql seems like an overreaction in the same way
15:22	rubber_duck	EvanR, that's the beautiful part of clojure - there's no OOP - SQL is just another data returning function - you don't care about "keeping your objects synchronized" because you're working with values by default
15:23	justin_smith	rubber_duck: to be fair there is some OOP, but we can usually avoid it, and it's on the layer of "how to tell jdbc what to do" not on the layer of representing the queries and results
15:24	EvanR	yeah i tried reading about that stuff in the history books, and it made no sense
15:24	EvanR	so many assumptions about how you have to do stuff, it was all a figment of their imaginations
15:24	amalloy	EvanR: a string type that doesn't support concatenation is certainly interesting. you could do even better in haskell, with a newtype wrapper around String such that you can concat query bits with each other but not with user-input strings
15:25	bbloom	mgaare: yesql is only an overreaction if you have a genuine need to abstract over sql dialects or compose queries from fragments
15:25	EvanR	amalloy: the haskell lib mysql-simple and postgres-simple is what i was thinking of, it overload string literals for this
15:25	amalloy	right
15:25	bbloom	if you don't need to abstract over sql dialects, you can use database-specific abstraction and composition mechanisms
15:25	amalloy	i haven't actually used those, but overloaded strings did seem like the natural thing when you suggested it
15:26	EvanR	but the point about it not being as flexible is true, in which case you really want your field names, joins, where clauses, group bys, orders, limits, and unions to be their own types which you just nest
15:26	EvanR	thats the simple way
15:26	EvanR	or you could make this sql compiler thing
15:26	mgaare	bbloom: The pile-of-strings approach is not very resilient to change either
15:26	bbloom	mgaare: the question is: what changes?
15:27	bbloom	mgaare: in my experience it's easier to change sql queries than it is to change ORM invocations
15:27	bbloom	you're more likely to get analysis errors trying to execute fixed queries than you are trying to generate queries reflectively from schema
15:28	mgaare	I think we can agree that ORM is not the way
15:28	amalloy	it's no coincidence that ORM shares two letters with MURDER
15:28	bbloom	sure, so ORM is clearly out, but the question is whether or not you want a metalanguage for queries
15:28	EvanR	"how do i do X" "dont do X" mapper
15:28	bbloom	korma etc are decidedly ORM-like
15:28	rubber_duck	as much as I love clojure reading it's source to reverse engineer protocols/specs makes me want to bang my head against the wall, I wish core.typed was at the point it could be baked in to the language :)
15:28	EvanR	sql is already a meta language for queries
15:28	bbloom	but there's stuff like ClojureQL etc that are arguably more composable
15:28	EvanR	a sucky one
15:29	hiredman	really, you just want something that makes generating sql strings better
15:29	EvanR	and you always want a better language for doing X rather than beating your keyboard like a caveman
15:29	Bronsa	,(meta (seq (with-meta (lazy-seq []) {:foo 1})))
15:29	bbloom	right, but there's always costs
15:29	clojurebot	nil
15:29	hiredman	relational algebra is fine and good, the result sets you get back from java.jdbc are fine
15:29	bbloom	coding directly to a SQL AST may be preferable in some cases
15:29	hiredman	bbloom: right
15:29	bbloom	but SQL wasn't designed to be coded to at the AST level like a lisp was
15:30	bbloom	so there's naturally some abstract vs concrete syntax mismatch
15:30	bbloom	so the developer has to bear the weight of that cost
15:30	bbloom	if you're not metaprogramming queries (or not doing it often) it may not be worth it to pay that cost for all other concrete queries
15:30	EvanR	until some developer makes a better language that other developers recognize as good
15:30	hiredman	speaking of everyone having an 80% solution https://github.com/hiredman/graph/blob/master/src/com/manigfeald/graph/rel.clj is what I wrote last time I had to write a lot of sql joins
15:30	mgaare	SQL was designed for businesspeople to use, and it was at least more successful at that than the previous efforts at that objective like Cobol
15:30	bbloom	btw, i'm a big fan of C#'s Linq to SQL
15:31	bbloom	it's exceptionally well done
15:31	EvanR	yeah thats a good example
15:31	bbloom	it has both solid concrete sytnax and is very robust both in terms of reliability and completeness
15:31	rubber_duck	F# typeproviders look even sexier
15:31	hiredman	bbloom: indeed
15:32	EvanR	foo to sql compiler
15:32	EvanR	design pattern
15:33	justin_smith	bbloom: would Linq be usable from clojure-clr?
15:33	bbloom	justin_smith: the compiler might be, yeah
15:33	bbloom	justin_smith: you'd still need a mapping from a clojure data structure to an Expression data type to invoke the compiler
15:34	rubber_duck	In F# type providers basically both the compiler and the IDE can read your DB schema trough a plugin and generate type info and provide code completion off live DB - that's just :O
15:34	justin_smith	bbloom: that seems more tractable than string based stuff at a glance
15:34	bbloom	justin_smith: you'd get a good SQL compiler, but you basically now need a clojure to C# compiler
15:34	bbloom	which is, of course, different than clojure to msil
15:34	bbloom	linq operates on an expression tree datatype
15:35	bbloom	seems like that may be as hard, if not harder, than just compiling to SQL
15:35	EvanR	expression trees without further context sounds way easier to deal with than sql text
15:36	EvanR	but its c#
15:36	bbloom	basically, the C# compiler uses the type of an argument to overload the call site to automatically quote the passed expression
15:36	bbloom	it's basically C#'s macro mechanism
15:36	turbofail	hm. interesting
15:37	bbloom	http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb397951.aspx
15:37	bbloom	it's similar to scala's call by name, but scala does not let you inspect a call by name argument
15:37	bbloom	to do that, you must write a scala compiler plugin
15:41	turbofail	this doesn't seem to allow for compile time shenannigans. though on the plus side, it doesn't seem to allow for compile time shenannigans
15:43	turbofail	though it also appears you can compile at run time, as in clojure. so the distinction is kind of fuzzy
15:51	andyf	Bronsa: Would you prefer I test latest tools.reader over the revert change you suggested?
15:54	Bronsa	andyf: yeah
15:56	EvanR	apt-get installing scala, im feeling bored with life
15:57	perplexa	does anybody use clojure to build GUI apps?
15:58	perplexa	and if yes, what libs do people use? i just saw seasaw but it seems unmaintained
15:58	sveri	Hi, name one beginner friendly .emacs.d repo, at best with an overview of the shortcuts, pleas
15:59	andyf	A few have created some: Nightcode clooj clj-ns-browser. Seesaw is a good swing lib wrapper
15:59	perplexa	thx andyf!
15:59	andyf	Why did it seem unmaintained ?
16:00	perplexa	commits are from 4-1 year ago
16:01	andyf	There is an email list where some q & a still occurs. Not sure if it is still being enhanced.
16:01	noonian	you could also go the cljs + node webkit route
16:02	perplexa	btw andyf, i didn't mean IDEs ;p
16:02	amalloy	perplexa: sometimes things are just done. seesaw works fine, as far as i know. there's no need to constantly add new bells and whistles to it
16:03	perplexa	i'll give it a try then
16:03	andyf	Seesaw is not specific to IDEs. They are just examples I knew without looking up more
16:05	ustunozgur	try this: google for java rationale
16:06	amalloy	perplexa: also, it looks like he's been merging pull requests regularly. Last one merged a month or two ago
16:08	{blake}	Crap. Hiccup doesn't have a date control?
16:08	Bronsa	http://sprunge.us/LZTB
16:10	EvanR	you know very well source code degrades over time naturally and must be constantly updated to maintain a constant level of workingness
16:10	amalloy	that's interesting, Bronsa. does the compiler just choose arbitrarily among equally-good overloads?
16:10	AimHere	EvanR, binary code degrades faster, of course
16:11	EvanR	lol
16:11	Bronsa	amalloy: that's what it looks like
16:11	seangrove	{blake}: I assume you must mean something like hiccup (in clojure) throws an error if you do [:date ...]?
16:11	perplexa	amalloy: fixing typos in comments ;/
16:11	amalloy	perplexa: so, it works so well that the only pull requests people are sending him are comment typos, and he's even merging those? where is the bad news?
16:12	justin_smith	{blake}: seangrove: yeah that confused me too, all hiccup does is output tagged elements, why would it care if it was a date or not?
16:12	{blake}	seangrove, I'm looking for a "date-field".
16:13	Bronsa	amalloy: the funnt thing is that it doesn't do that at compile time, those compile into a reflective call
16:13	amalloy	right
16:13	perplexa	i thought there would be the need to update it, but seems swing is consistent in its api, but i really have no idea :)
16:13	seangrove	{blake}: Post some code and error output
16:13	AeroNotix	dakrone: hey when are you going to release clj-http 1.0.2?
16:14	{blake}	seangrove, Nothing to post. There's no "date-input". Maybe I'm supposed to use "input-field"--but that's a "defn-".
16:14	AeroNotix	not trying to rush you but a weird bug between elastisch and clj-http seems resolved when using 1.0.2-SNAPSHOT
16:15	seangrove	{blake}: Surely it's just [:input {:type "date"}] ?
16:15	{blake}	seangrove, Like maybe it's supposed to be called (inputfield "date" "mydate")
16:15	amalloy	Bronsa: what order do the methods come out in when you use reflection to look up the methods named foo and bar?
16:16	seangrove	Weird, I had never even seen this https://github.com/weavejester/hiccup/blob/1.0.5/src/hiccup/form.clj#L89
16:16	seangrove	I've never used the helper functinos I guess
16:16	justin_smith	{blake}: I think what you may be missing is that hiccup is really about constructing a fairly straightforward edn that can be translated to html, and you don't need a specific function to create that edn, you can put it in literally or write your own function that outputs edn
16:16	seangrove	justin: Did you know about those helper elems?
16:16	{blake}	justin_smith, Yeah. Sounds plausible.
16:16	justin_smith	seangrove: I have looked at them, but never really needed them
16:17	Bronsa	amalloy: yeah they come out in reverse order
16:17	amalloy	it looks to me like the issue is that (clojure.lang.Compiler/subsumes (into-array [Long]) (into-array [Integer/TYPE])) and (clojure.lang.Compiler/subsumes (into-array [Integer]) (into-array [Long/TYPE])) are both true
16:17	{blake}	justin_smith, seangrove Leave it to the noob to find the obscure stuff...
16:17	justin_smith	hehe
16:17	amalloy	so the compiler considers those both perfect matches, and doesn't bother looking to see if there's another equally-good match
16:18	justin_smith	{blake}: another approach would be to use the same macros that are being used in the code seangrove linked to
16:18	Bronsa	amalloy: I gave up months ago trying to understand how all that actually can work, I just accept it does most of the time
16:18	amalloy	a solid plan
16:19	{blake}	justin_smith, I am using those; that's why I was looking for a "date-field".
16:20	justin_smith	{blake}: I mean the macros that generate those definitions
16:20	justin_smith	(it's macros all the way down)
16:21	{blake}	justin_smith, Till you get to the turtles, anyway. I was thinking about the "input-field" function. Was there a macro I could use instead?
16:22	andyf	Bronsa: Maybe I am getting overly worried by your example, but does that mean that Math/abs could truncate longs to ints with no way to predict?
16:22	noonian	as long as the last one never gets expanded then you
16:22	noonian	you're good right?
16:22	{blake}	OK, here's a more general-purpose question: I'm used to having a substring function that handles out-of-bounds conditions...gracefully...like (subs "" 0 4) returning "", rather than "HOW DARE YOU!?!" Is there such a thing in Clojure?
16:22	justin_smith	{blake}: in seangrove's link they use "defelem"
16:23	justin_smith	great simile about system design: "like putting a pig heart in an alligator because mammals are clearly better than reptils"
16:23	{blake}	justin_smith, So I could make a "defelem date-field", IOW. Yeah... OK, feasible.
16:23	EvanR	sounds tastey
16:24	{blake}	It's bacon that eats you!
16:24	justin_smith	EvanR: there's a cajun place nearby, open real late, you can get a killer mac+cheese+alligator sausage
16:26	amalloy	andyf: looks possible to me, yes
16:26	noonian	justin_smith: where at?
16:27	justin_smith	noonian: portland, OR
16:27	noonian	justin_smith: i know, i mean where in pdx?
16:27	noonian	is the cajun place you're talking about
16:28	justin_smith	montage, se industrial
16:28	noonian	i've never had alligator
16:28	noonian	ah right, one of my friends seears by montage
16:29	justin_smith	it's an intense place, definitely not a laid back atmosphere
16:29	Bronsa	andyf: yeah it would look like so
16:29	Bronsa	andyf: OTOH (fn [a] (Math/abs a)) would emit a reflection warning
16:29	amalloy	andyf: if you decompile (fn [x] (Math/abs x)), it boils down to a reflective call that hinges on clojure.lang.Reflector/paramArgTypeMatch
16:30	amalloy	and it says that a Long arg matches an int param
16:32	amalloy	and the way it unboxes is via Long.intValue(), which silently overflows
16:32	andyf	Uncool
16:37	andyf	Bronsa: I suppose it makes sense that the combination of how tools.reader adds more file loc metadata than the Clojure reader, and how syntax quote works, that some code could throw method too large with tools.reader when eval'd but not with standard reader ?
16:37	Bronsa	andyf: yeah probably
16:37	Bronsa	andyf: it might choke on the <clinit> method
16:37	amalloy	andyf: i'm a little surprised. at least in the reflective case, your code is really slow already anyway; Reflector could do an overflow check when unboxing, and throw an exception
16:38	andyf	I have only seen that occasionally so far. Will let you know if it gets worrisome.
16:38	Bronsa	andyf: I remember seeing that for midje a while ago
16:39	amalloy	Bronsa: just in general, not for tools.reader, right?
16:39	andyf	I suppose best workaround would be to disable some of that extra metadata in tools.reader ?
16:40	Bronsa	amalloy: some midje macros output a huge amount of code for even relatively small inputs, tools.reader adds >2x the amount of metadata that LispReader does and that's enough to trigger a methodwhatever exception
16:41	Bronsa	andyf: ATM there's no way to control what metadata is attached where in tools.reader
16:42	andyf	I know how to use grep for end-column :-)
16:42	Bronsa	heh
16:42	Bronsa	andyf: it's not only end-column/end-line though
16:42	Bronsa	andyf: tools.reader adds line info on vector/set/map literals too
16:43	Bronsa	and maybe on symbols or something like that, I don't remember
16:43	Bronsa	andyf: cljs needs this to emit accurate source-maps
16:43	andyf	Ok. Good to know, but not urgent.
16:44	hiredman	on that basis I continue to blame midje for everything
16:46	amalloy	Bronsa: i remember long ago that midje was regularly emitting enough code to break the compiler even using the ordinary reader, so i can't really blame tools.reader for this
16:49	TimMc	I feel like this is probably a usecase for generative testing. :-)
16:50	TimMc	Oh nvm, you're talking about the sheer quantity of code.
16:50	TimMc	We've run into that at work a couple times, but it's slightly our fault.
16:50	Bronsa	amalloy_lunch: the real issue IMHO is that the compiler doesn't split methods when they start getting big enough they could hit the limit & doesn't compress the data when building the constant table in <clinit>
16:51	Bronsa	those are both things I'd like to address in tools.emitter.jvm but I have an awful long list of things to do before I can start playing again with t.e.jvm
16:54	andyf	(zinc Bronsa)
16:54	andyf	(inc Bronsa)
16:54	lazybot	⇒ 65
16:54	andyf	I hope you are not now, or ever, covered in zinc
16:55	TimMc	unless it's sunscreen
16:55	TimMc	Bronsa: Is there a Jira ticket for that? I'd like to vote for it.
16:55	andyf	I like to think there are 2.5 people working on Eastwood, and Bronsa is 2 of them :-)
17:00	TimMc	Hah! Who is .5?
17:00	andyf	Me
17:06	Bronsa	TimMc: no ticket that I'm aware of
17:06	technomancy	~theology
17:06	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
17:07	tim___	ooh, that's a good one
17:07	Bronsa	andyf: that's totally untrue and you know it. both eastwood and t.a would be nowhere near what they are now if it wasn't for your hard work
17:08	andyf	It's a humbler- than-I-actually-am joke
17:08	technomancy	tim___: not actually the response I was expecting, but that works surprisingly well.
17:09	technomancy	~geometry
17:09	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
17:09	technomancy	~theology is <reply>Clojure needs some theology and geometry; some taste and decency. I suspect we are teetering on the edge of an abyss.
17:09	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
17:09	technomancy	^ what I think of when I hear that midje is emitting enough code to break the compiler
17:12	justin_smith	technomancy: among the many things we have in a lisp that scale to great ends thanks to our compible tools, is space usage
17:13	tbaldridge	and it's not just Midge, try using core.match with core.async's go macro...
17:14	tbaldridge	or writing any large function in something like core.match or core.async
17:16	technomancy	one of the many reasons it bums me out that pattern matching isn't part of the language
17:27	EvanR	im using core.match, should i be worried?
17:29	andyf	Probably not, unless you mix with core.async and/or large functions
17:30	technomancy	I can't use it because it would lock all lein plugins into a specific version =\
17:30	technomancy	but if you don't have a big plugin ecosystem that shouldn't be a problem for you
17:30	technomancy	it used to have a bunch of AOT bugs, but it sounds like those have been taken care of
17:30	andyf	technomancy: Not if you renamed the namespace of the one you use :-)
17:31	Bronsa	andyf: hah, I was waiting for this comment
17:31	justin_smith	andyf: and the jar dep too?
17:31	andyf	I don't recommend that. I am a masichist in some ways.
17:32	technomancy	don't give me any crazy ideas
17:32	technomancy	I have plenty of my own, and it gets confusing when I have to tell them apart from other peoples' crazy ideas.
17:32	technomancy	=)
17:32	andyf	justin_smith: No jar dep. copy the source & rename the namespaces
17:33	andyf	Assuming licenses are compatible
17:33	technomancy	like what clojure does with asm, I guess
17:33	justin_smith	oh, of course
17:39	amalloy	i would support a jar rename of core.match by technomancy. it would have to be called technomatchy or matchnomancy or something
17:39	amalloy	and it would be sufficiently advanced to be indistinguishable from matchic
17:40	justin_smith	phil.matchelberg
17:40	amalloy	(inc justin_smith)
17:40	lazybot	⇒ 112
17:41	andyf	Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
17:42	jamieenglish	Hi all, I'm looking to build a load testing web app and want to use JMeter as a library, rather than an executable. Is this a bad idea??
17:42	lazybot	jamieenglish: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?
17:43	andyf	Man, lazybot has no empathy
17:43	justin_smith	lazybot, are you silly??
17:43	lazybot	justin_smith: Definitely not.
17:44	arohner	ok, real stupid question. clj-time surely has a date time formatter that will take an #inst, right?
17:44	arohner	(with the #inst part stripped)
17:44	dbasch	lazybot is distinguishable from magic
17:44	hiredman	#inst will actually take a lot of things
17:44	arohner	hiredman: my goal is to take a string generated by #inst, and parse into joda (and then later spit joda times into strings that resemble #inst)
17:45	jamieenglish	Well, lazybot, jmeter is cool as a cli, but there doesn't seem to be much info on using it to programatically build and run load tests :(
17:45	arohner	I know I can write the formatter, I'm just amazed it doesn't exist yet
17:45	arohner	or I'm unable to find it
17:45	justin_smith	jamieenglish: in case it is not clear, lazybot answers anything ending in ?? with a random yes or no
17:45	amalloy	jamieenglish: lazybot is a bot; he's just guessing that because your question ended with ?? you are asking something to which the answer is probably "no"
17:45	EvanR	??
17:45	lazybot	EvanR: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?
17:45	clojurebot	CLABANGO!
17:45	amalloy	justin_smith: not so!
17:45	EvanR	???
17:45	lazybot	EvanR: Yes, 100% for sure.
17:46	amalloy	is there a way to force lazybot to answer with a yes???
17:46	lazybot	amalloy: Yes, 100% for sure.
17:46	justin_smith	amalloy: oh, TIL
17:46	EvanR	? ?
17:46	jamieenglish	justin_smith: I got that :)
17:46	amalloy	justin_smith: the ?? ending is the only part of it that seemed to me to be actually a good heuristic; i put in the ??? thing so i could use lazybot as a stooge
17:46	EvanR	#"\?\s?\d$"
17:47	justin_smith	amalloy: look for a ‽ trigger in my pr for lazybot
17:48	technomancy	we had someone get super mad at that in #leiningen the other day
17:48	technomancy	but it was about a windows question and he was actually pretty mad to begin with afaict
17:48	amalloy	is it possible that amalloy is secretly pulling all the strings behind lazybot‽
17:48	lazybot	"no, no way that would ever happen"
17:49	amalloy	lol, silly me. put in ""s as if IRC were a clojure repl
17:49	justin_smith	amalloy: I read the quotation marks as sarcasm
17:49	EvanR	hhkklklhkjh
17:49	hiredman	~amalloy
17:49	amalloy	EvanR: vim is over there
17:49	clojurebot	amalloy only uses locally sourced, free range electrons
17:50	amalloy	technomancy: it's a fun feature, but i probably wouldn't add it today, just because he does occasionally upset people who don't get it
17:51	amalloy	sometimes those people deserve it, but uninformed newbies don't need any extra confusion in their lives
17:51	justin_smith	jamieenglish: your question piqued my curiosity, and all I find so far is forum threads about whether it would be a good idea (with many people saying it is crazy) and no guides to embedding jmeter, or examples of using it that way.
17:51	dbasch	amalloy: we can all use more confusion http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/confusion-helps-us-learn-12-06-25/
17:51	technomancy	amalloy: I'd say it's not bad in high-traffic channels where the bot is unlikely to be the only response
17:51	sdegutis	Hi bbloom. Thanks for the fun conversation about religion on Twitter.
17:52	technomancy	but timezones make it more complicated too
17:52	bbloom	sdegutis: that isn't appropriate to bring up here
17:52	hiredman	I dunno, I mean, I seem to recall hearing that the less informed you are about a topic the more confident you are in your opinions on it
17:52	sdegutis	Oops.
17:52	hiredman	so maybe confusion is called for
17:52	dbasch	not sure, I’m meta-confused
17:52	technomancy	relevant https://twitter.com/geektastic/status/527456651578966017
17:53	justin_smith	hiredman: dunning-kruger? that's kind of a curve
17:53	jamieenglish	justin_smith: thanks for looking. I'll have a quick stab at it and hopefully report back if I get anywhere
17:54	technomancy	"We come here upon what, in a large proportion of cases, forms the source of the grossest errors of mankind. Men on a lower level of understanding, when brought into contact with phenomena of a higher order, instead of making efforts to understand them, to raise themselves up ...
17:54	justin_smith	jamieenglish: I bet ##java would have more actual insight
17:54	technomancy	to the point of view from which they must look at the subject, judge it from their lower standpoint, and the less they understand what they are talking about, the more confidently and unhesitatingly they pass judgment on it."
17:54	technomancy	^ tolstoy had a good explanation for why people go "ugh parens"
17:54	amalloy	technomancy: solution to non-problem: tell lazybot to /nick lazyBOT-this-is-a-BOT
17:54	jamieenglish	justin_smith: cheers, I'll try there
17:54	technomancy	amalloy: nope, people would still miss it.
17:55	amalloy	technomancy: a non-solution to a non-problem, then. seems like a good plan
17:57	mmeix	justin_smith hyPiRion P.S. to the problem I had yesterday: found another solution without reduce :-) https://www.refheap.com/92493
17:57	EvanR	/nick NOT-A-BOT
17:58	kenrestivo	well i for one enjoy lazybot and clojurebot's weird quirkd
17:59	hugod	bbloom: re your conversation on stevedore, dsl's, etc, I am generally unhappy with stevedore being more than a syntactic translation. I would really like to be able to try using an equivalent of racket's #lang support to have stevedore look more like plain shell, and just add interpolation of clojure values.
18:00	amalloy	mmeix: (defn runs [coll] (flatland.useful.seq/glue conj [] #(= %2 (inc (peek %1))) coll))
18:00	hoangelos	I'm using the clojure client. Is there a way to get the delete-directory to be recursive?
18:00	justin_smith	hoangelos: "the clojure client"?
18:01	hoangelos	well. it's just a wrapper around the java client...
18:01	hoangelos	oops
18:01	justin_smith	hoangelos: what's the referent here?
18:01	bbloom	hugod: interesting
18:01	hoangelos	hilarious wrong room
18:01	mmeix	amalloy (flatland.useful.seq/glue) is new to me ... looks useful though
18:01	amalloy	mmeix: it's super useful for batching of all sorts
18:01	kenrestivo	well of course it's useful, it's useful.
18:02	amalloy	and this has the upside that it's lazy-ish, or at least as lazy as partition is
18:02	mmeix	amalloy thanks! will try
18:03	justin_smith	mmeix: amalloy: not to be confused with gfredericks/useless
18:03	mmeix	how do you people know about sich a lib? I wouldn't know how to search for something like that ..
18:03	technomancy	same way you solve every problem
18:03	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
18:03	amalloy	mmeix: i wrote it
18:03	technomancy	ask on IRC!
18:03	justin_smith	mmeix: well, amalloy knows about it because he wrote it
18:03	justin_smith	heh
18:03	mmeix	ah! ok ... so:
18:04	dbasch	mmeix: now you know about it because you asked
18:04	mmeix	(inc amalloy)
18:04	lazybot	⇒ 183
18:04	amalloy	but useful is broad enough that it has answers to a lot of common problems; it might be worth your while to skim it and take note of anything you might want later
18:04	amalloy	http://flatland.org/useful/
18:04	dbasch	contagiousness is the essence of virality
18:05	mmeix	thanks - this IRC channel is a constant source of wisdom for a beginner ...
18:07	amalloy	oh nice, i forgot i added flatland.useful.fn/ap
18:08	amalloy	the number of times i've written something like (-> xs (foo) (bar) (apply update-in [:x] inc)) and then been like "what the heck why doesn't this work"...
18:09	amalloy	er, except that inc of course doesn't want to be applied; imagine some other function for the example
18:09	amalloy	when clearly i should be writing (-> xs (foo) (bar) ((ap update-in) [:x] inc))
18:10	mmeix	BTW: does anyone know about a introductory tutorial for derive?
18:11	mmeix	(maybe I should immerse myself into Joy of Clojure for this ...)
18:12	mmeix	but for this evening: studying the treasures of flatland :-)
18:13	justin_smith	mmeix: my suggestion around derive was you can use multimethods to describe behaviors on various kinds of input, and then derive to build heirarchies of things with behaviors
18:13	mmeix	aha! ok ...
18:13	justin_smith	mmeix: the embryo of an idea there being that one could model musical domain knowledge about rules that way
18:14	justin_smith	but it's not a totally solidified thing, may be hare-brained
18:15	mmeix	so derive is about multi-methods ...
18:15	mmeix	worth learning anyway I guess
18:15	justin_smith	mmeix: yeah, it's about describing a kind of inheritance or taxonomy
18:16	mmeix	in terms of methods?
18:16	justin_smith	mmeix: methods use isa? and isa? respects the taxonomies / heirarchies built by derive
18:17	mmeix	ah, it's a more generalized concept
18:17	mmeix	something to let sink in for some days, I guess
18:17	justin_smith	,(derive ::cat ::animal)
18:17	clojurebot	nil
18:17	justin_smith	,(derive ::cat ::heatsink)
18:17	clojurebot	nil
18:17	justin_smith	,(isa? ::cat ::animal)
18:17	clojurebot	true
18:18	justin_smith	,(isa? ::cat ::heatsink)
18:18	clojurebot	true
18:19	mmeix	and ::cat would be a method/function ... , or just anything?
18:19	mmeix	sounds a bit like OO inheritance to my naive understanding
18:19	mmeix	(I'm really a beginner still...)
18:19	justin_smith	mmeix: a multimethod could have a method for ::animal
18:20	justin_smith	mmeix: a bit
18:20	mmeix	ok
18:20	amalloy	mmeix: it kinda is, yes. but it's a small piece of the object model (namely, polymorphic dispatch) without the rest bundled into it
18:20	justin_smith	right
18:20	mmeix	ah! ::cat would be a dispatch value
18:20	amalloy	yes
18:20	justin_smith	mmeix: when provided with ::cat, it would match ::animal
18:21	mmeix	(light bulb)
18:21	mmeix	ok, something to ponder on
18:21	justin_smith	in another context, it might match ::heat-sink
18:21	justin_smith	because a ::cat has many purposes, of course
18:21	mmeix	I guess I have to learn about the :: notation and it's meaning beforehand
18:22	justin_smith	mmeix: oh, that's pretty simple
18:22	amalloy	mmeix: you can pretend, for this conversation, that ::x is the same as :x
18:22	justin_smith	,::foo
18:22	clojurebot	:sandbox/foo
18:22	EvanR	a keyword which has lower probability of colliding with someone elses
18:22	mmeix	sort of privileged keyword?
18:23	EvanR	namespaces
18:23	mmeix	ok, will read into this
18:24	mmeix	thanks to all! (again & again)
18:25	mmeix	(reading & REPLing)
18:28	justin_smith	dbasch: that object-relational-mismatch wikipedia article you linked has some hilarious barely-hidden edit war argument going on in it
18:32	EvanR	is there a function to convert an empty array to nil, only if empty
18:32	EvanR	i love nils
18:32	justin_smith	seq
18:32	amalloy	&(doc not-empty)
18:32	lazybot	⇒ "([coll]); If coll is empty, returns nil, else coll"
18:33	EvanR	,(seq ())
18:33	clojurebot	nil
18:33	EvanR	,(seq (1))
18:33	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
18:33	EvanR	,(seq '(1))
18:33	clojurebot	(1)
18:33	dbasch	justin_smith: “I am mostly concerned about link to “How Vietnam Can Still Be Won” ... whereas the parent article is genuinely scholarly-like article on issue with OR/M technology, the latter is mostly (self-?)advertising heavily criticized in its comments as valueless.”
18:33	amalloy	could be seq or not-empty, depending on what you actually need
18:34	justin_smith	dbasch: wat
18:34	EvanR	,(not-empty '(1))
18:34	clojurebot	(1)
18:34	EvanR	,(not-empty ())
18:34	clojurebot	nil
18:34	dbasch	justin_smith: from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Object-relational_impedance_mismatch
18:34	amalloy	EvanR: the difference is what they do when called on [1]
18:34	justin_smith	,(not-empty [1 2])
18:34	clojurebot	[1 2]
18:34	Bronsa	,[(not-empty [1]) (seq [1])]
18:34	clojurebot	[[1] (1)]
18:34	justin_smith	yeah, not-empty is a better default if you care about the type of the input
18:34	EvanR	,(not-empty [1])
18:34	clojurebot	[1]
18:35	justin_smith	seq is just the one I use more often / remember more quickly
18:35	amalloy	i picked not-empty because EvanR said "array"
18:35	amalloy	and "only if empty"
18:35	justin_smith	but there is no such thing as an empty array!
18:35	EvanR	well in my mind its an array, but after going through these other standard functions it probably isnt
18:35	justin_smith	but vector, yeah
18:35	justin_smith	:)
18:35	SagiCZ1	(doc derive)
18:35	clojurebot	"([tag parent] [h tag parent]); Establishes a parent/child relationship between parent and tag. Parent must be a namespace-qualified symbol or keyword and child can be either a namespace-qualified symbol or keyword or a class. h must be a hierarchy obtained from make-hierarchy, if not supplied defaults to, and modifies, the global hierarchy."
18:35	EvanR	but not-empty seems more obvious maybe
18:35	amalloy	EvanR: probably not
18:35	amalloy	seq is a better default
18:35	EvanR	theres no empty arra?
18:35	amalloy	only use not-empty if you have some concrete reason to do so
18:35	justin_smith	EvanR: empty vectors sure
18:36	justin_smith	but arrays are fixed size
18:36	justin_smith	EvanR: what would you do with an empty collection, with no facility for adding new elements?
18:36	SagiCZ1	if i am frequently acessing last item of some sequence, should i use reverse-chronological list (this accessing its head) or should a vector suffice?
18:36	amalloy	either sounds fine, SagiCZ1
18:37	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: imho vectors are great for that, since you also get the intuitive behavior for first, nth, etc.
18:37	EvanR	justin_smith: pass it to something that doesnt have a special case for empty
18:37	EvanR	map filter etc work on empty things just fine
18:37	SagiCZ1	alright thanks
18:37	justin_smith	EvanR: ? what would that thing do with it? you can't change dimensions of an array
18:38	EvanR	i dont remember the last time i wanted to change the dimensions of an array
18:38	justin_smith	EvanR: so what would you do with a 0 length array?
18:38	justin_smith	I change dimensions of collections all the time
18:38	justin_smith	,(conj [] 1)
18:38	clojurebot	[1]
18:38	dbasch	justin_smith: here’s the original article they referred to https://web.archive.org/web/20120329012639/http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Object+Relational+Mapping%3B+How+Vietnam+Can+Still+Be+Won-a01073854068
18:38	EvanR	thats mutating?
18:39	justin_smith	EvanR: that's making a new collection, with the other as a basis, arrays can't do that
18:39	justin_smith	vectors can
18:40	amalloy	i think EvanR's usage is not defined nearly well enough to be giving opinions about what the right way to do things is
18:40	EvanR	this is a very interesting way to distinguish between various basically the same thing
18:40	EvanR	an abstract vector of things which supports "concat" (not mutating, not implying any implementation or optimizations or performance) should really have an identity element
18:41	justin_smith	OK, just saying that in terms of impl, if there is a way to make a zero length array, I don't know of it
18:41	amalloy	justin_smith: ???
18:41	lazybot	amalloy: Yes, 100% for sure.
18:41	amalloy	&(object-array)
18:41	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core$object-array
18:41	EvanR	the notion in my mind sort of sounds like why does javascript have empty string
18:41	amalloy	&(object-array 0)
18:41	lazybot	⇒ #<Object[] [Ljava.lang.Object;@22b0ded4>
18:41	justin_smith	amalloy: d'oh!
18:41	justin_smith	thanks
18:41	EvanR	but i did not know java cant make zero length arrays
18:42	EvanR	that is interesting
18:42	justin_smith	EvanR: it can
18:42	amalloy	EvanR: it does, of course
18:42	EvanR	alright
18:42	amalloy	zero-element arrays are not very useful as things to write to, of course
18:42	EvanR	right... you can write to arrays ;)
18:43	EvanR	its all coming back to me
18:43	EvanR	i never even thought about writing to an empty array
18:44	dbasch	zero-length arrays are useful mostly for api compatibility
18:44	dbasch	e.g. you get an array of search results from a java api, but there are no matches
18:45	justin_smith	dbasch: good point, I guess I would have expected Null for that, but that isn't handled so well in java
18:46	amalloy	of course java methods that work with arrays have not been very hip since like java 1.1. collections are a lot more workable
18:46	dbasch	null would be bad design, because really you’re getting empty results and you’d have to special-case a null check
18:46	dbasch	amalloy: I’m talking specifically about Lucene
18:47	justin_smith	dbasch: my brain is too lispy, sometimes this is a problem
18:47	EvanR	in lisp, empty list is the same as null?
18:47	amalloy	EvanR: varies by language
18:48	EvanR	interesting choice if it is
18:48	justin_smith	EvanR: historically (common lisp) it is, and it is reflected in clojure in places
18:48	justin_smith	,(cons 1 nil)
18:48	clojurebot	(1)
18:48	amalloy	EvanR: your background is haskell, right? in common lisp, for example, a list is defined basically like: data List a = Cons a d \| Nil
18:49	amalloy	so the only way you could have an empty list is nil
18:49	amalloy	(and yes, i got the data declaration wrong, but i think you get the idea)
18:49	dbasch	although the Lucene api has changed, and it looks like the examples are out of date
18:49	dbasch	e.g. “ScoreDoc[] hits = isearcher.search(query, null, 1000).scoreDocs;”
18:50	bbloom	<3 this clojure 1.7 :warn-on-boxed setting. got some nice wins on some otherwise reasonably well tuned code
18:50	EvanR	Nil being a special symbol for Nil, nevermind, i vaguely remember reading about flamewars over this
18:51	dbasch	but Lucene is one of the highest quality java libraries I know of
18:53	andyf	bbloom: give puredanger mad incs
18:53	bbloom	(mad-inc puredanger)
18:53	bbloom	(inc puredanger) ; plus a regular one
18:53	lazybot	⇒ 20
18:57	justin_smith	dbasch: other gems of that talk page include the argument that relational databases will inevitably be replaced by systems that tie data to code
18:58	dbasch	that would be web scale
18:58	dopamean_	does anyone know of a good resource for adding things to the session map that ring provides?
18:58	justin_smith	dopamean_: assoc / assoc-in
18:58	dopamean_	right
18:58	justin_smith	dopamean_: it's just a map
18:58	dopamean_	however i thought i could only add i when a response was being sent or something
18:59	justin_smith	? you can add it whenever you like, just make sure to supply your modified version to the next stage
18:59	dopamean_	right thats the part that im confused about
19:00	dopamean_	the function that responds to the request calls another function that renders some stuff with enlive
19:00	justin_smith	you add new data to the request map under the :session key, and then you pass that along
19:00	amalloy	dopamean_: you want a middleware like: (defn with-magic [handler] (fn [req] (handler (assoc-in req [:session :magic] :activated))))
19:00	amalloy	(or anyway you might want such a thing)
19:01	justin_smith	dopamean_: {:body (enlive/whatever input) :session (update-session (:session request)) :status 200}
19:01	dopamean_	damn
19:02	dopamean_	that seems kind of obvious
19:02	justin_smith	dopamean_: well, it's using standard clojure data structures, but some of the consequences can be interesting and subtle if you are used to doing things another way
19:03	amalloy	(inc justin_smith)
19:03	lazybot	⇒ 113
19:03	bbloom	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/b01adb859c66322c5cff1ca9dc1ad98585f2cdc1/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Compiler.java#L7552-L7553
19:03	dopamean_	thanks a ton
19:03	dopamean_	this helps a lot.
19:03	amalloy	hey, that is my second inc of you today. i must be in a generous mood
19:03	bbloom	^^ seems like that'll break w/ more than HASHTABLE_THRESHOLD fields (16)
19:05	hiredman	bbloom: the bare array map constructor doesn't do any checks
19:05	bbloom	hiredman: ah yes, it doesn't call assoc
19:05	bbloom	cool thanks
19:06	bbloom	always seemed a tad sketch to me that array map knows about hash map
19:06	bbloom	but such is the price of avoiding an extra level of indirection, i suspect
19:06	andyf	bbloom: Not sure why it would break, but Clojure definitely can create array maps larger than the threshold
19:07	bbloom	andyf: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/b01adb859c66322c5cff1ca9dc1ad98585f2cdc1/src/jvm/clojure/lang/PersistentArrayMap.java#L200-L201
19:07	EvanR	what is "array map"
19:08	justin_smith	EvanR: one of the concrete implementations underlying clojure's hash-map
19:08	andyf	Not by that line of code, though :-)
19:08	justin_smith	,(class {:a 0})
19:08	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
19:08	justin_smith	,(class (apply hash-map (range 100)))
19:08	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap
19:08	EvanR	and "hash-map" is referring to just the map { }
19:08	dbasch	EvanR: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/PersistentArrayMap.java
19:09	bbloom	andyf: yeah it's just jamming an array in there directly
19:09	EvanR	whats persistent about it, beyond the usual?
19:09	justin_smith	EvanR: hash-map always creates a PersistentHashMap iirc, but literals can create ArrayMaps
19:09	andyf	I didn't track down how it happens, but saw some when adding some debug prints when fixing something else
19:10	justin_smith	EvanR: nothing, the naming differentiates from java stuff that is mutable
19:10	justin_smith	EvanR: well, nothing beyond the usual "persistent collection" meaning
19:10	amalloy	it's funny because array-map is one of the things in clojure that isn't really very persistent
19:10	danielszmulewicz	so many sql abstraction libraries... what's your favorite?
19:11	andyf	justin_smith: EvanR: Wikipedia has article with reasonable dean of persistent data struct. It means something.
19:11	justin_smith	andyf: yes, sorry, I meant persistent in this case just means that, not that persistent was not a meaningful thing
19:11	amalloy	andyf: heh. "dean of persistent data structures" is a position i'd take
19:12	justin_smith	andyf: maybe I misunderstood his "beyond the usual" qualifier
19:12	andyf	Durn auto correct: dean -> defn
19:12	EvanR	so it means immutable
19:13	amalloy	EvanR: persistent actually means something stronger than that, but it's often used loosely to include anything immutable
19:13	EvanR	this arraymap implementation is nice and simple, i can see how a small map can get some performance out of this
19:13	amalloy	it's kinda questionable to call PersistentArrayMap "persistent", but not totally wrong either
19:13	EvanR	i dont know what it means but im guessing it doesnt mean its still there after your jvm shutsdown
19:14	EvanR	and your computer reboots
19:14	justin_smith	EvanR: immutible, and also capable of sharing data as needed (though I am not sure if that is neccessary for the definition)
19:14	EvanR	yep that would be a free benefit of immutable
19:14	dbasch	EvanR: for that matter, databases are not too persistent in the face of potent magnets
19:14	amalloy	EvanR: have you read the wikipedia article andyf suggested?
19:15	justin_smith	EvanR: not quite free - you need the right kind of tree structure to make it really work
19:15	dbasch	but persistent has a very specific meaning when it comes to data structures
19:15	dbasch	that has little to do with durability
19:15	amalloy	you guys are talking at cross purposes, justin_smith/EvanR
19:15	justin_smith	OK
19:15	EvanR	which article
19:15	amalloy	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent_data_structure
19:16	EvanR	interesting
19:16	EvanR	the context is an api which "modifies" an object
19:16	amalloy	justin_smith was trying to talk about efficient structural sharing, where to EvanR it just sounded like pointer sharing
19:16	EvanR	im still not fully understanding what that means in clojure
19:17	justin_smith	amalloy: yeah, because that, to me, is what differentiates persistent data structures for other immutible data structures
19:17	dbasch	EvanR: there’s a good talk by bbloom about persistent trees
19:17	dbasch	let me find it
19:18	dbasch	EvanR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j649Tr25RyA
19:18	dbasch	slides http://www.slideshare.net/g33ktalk/software-dendrology-by-brandon-bloom
19:18	justin_smith	EvanR: maybe not so much about "modifying" an object, as making a variation without needing to copy the entire object in the process, while still not effectively altering the original
19:18	amalloy	that was a good talk. does he talk about the definition of persistence? i don't remember that part. i guess even so it's a good introduction to the data structures clojure uses to get well-performing persistent values
19:18	bbloom	dbasch: i'm glad you enjoyed my talk! but i think zach allaun gives the best intro to how the structures work: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/julia-vectors-maps-sets
19:19	bbloom	i didn't really set out to cover that
19:19	justin_smith	bbloom: that was like a reverse kanye
19:19	bbloom	justin_smith: i'm not going to let you finish, since somebody else did the best thing OF ALL TIME
19:20	TEttinger	that thing being https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP2FpVKlp1s
19:21	TEttinger	my brother made that, I just added two frames of video and uploaded it
19:21	EvanR	ok, yeah, it makes sense to have a name for this when immutable is not the default
19:21	bbloom	it's more than immutable
19:21	EvanR	even though the apis in clojure ive seen so far dont have much to do with updating in place
19:22	bbloom	it's about structural sharing
19:22	bbloom	you can achieve immutable w/ full clone on all writes
19:22	justin_smith	EvanR: it's not about mutation
19:22	EvanR	yeah, the java code to support this stuff has the option to copy or not, or update in place or not
19:22	justin_smith	EvanR: it's an implementation detail for immutability
19:24	EvanR	is there anything that does copy on write?
19:24	EvanR	hmm, i guess thats the default
19:24	amalloy	EvanR: well, array-map
19:24	amalloy	which is why i said it's a bit awkward to call it PersistentArrayMap
19:24	EvanR	i meant to ask, is there anything that mutates if it knows nobody will be affected
19:24	EvanR	in place
19:24	amalloy	EvanR: transients
19:25	EvanR	ok
19:25	amalloy	for one example, see the definition of mapv
19:25	justin_smith	for values of "it knows nobody will be affected" that include "it's your own fault if you thought you wouldn't be affected"
19:25	amalloy	which modifies a transient vector in place until it's ready to return it, then converts it to a persistent
19:26	EvanR	map doesnt just do that?
19:26	justin_smith	meaning not that transients are sneaky, but there are ways to misuse them if you are not careful
19:26	EvanR	oh map produces a seq
19:26	amalloy	EvanR: it can't, because of laziness
19:26	EvanR	nevermind
19:27	EvanR	in ruby / javascript you get used to only have one "array"
19:27	justin_smith	yeah we have list / lazy-seq / queue / vector / array
19:27	justin_smith	all very distinct
19:27	EvanR	and map
19:27	EvanR	didnt know about queue
19:27	justin_smith	yeah, that's not even sequential
19:28	EvanR	i didnt think it was, but its supporting all these sequential interfaces
19:28	amalloy	EvanR: speaking of ruby, mutability, and being used to having just one array: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1mGihUBBIKMQn5Uz-5DvQ1Vu24qSuk3o4yUoPoBZW3tI/edit#slide=id.g432ac727f_023
19:28	justin_smith	,(into [] (-> clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY (conj :a) (conj :b) pop))
19:28	clojurebot	[:b]
19:29	justin_smith	^ queue
19:29	SagiCZ1	can if-let check if all the bindings are not nil? i know it works for one..
19:29	amalloy	justin_smith: queue isn't sequential?
19:29	justin_smith	amalloy: I listed it with the sequential ones
19:29	justin_smith	I was saying map was not
19:29	amalloy	oh, i see
19:29	EvanR	never use basically anything in ruby's array library
19:30	amalloy	EvanR: clojure's seq interface is a bit like Foldable. it's not just for things which are sequential, but for things which you can get a sequential view of
19:30	EvanR	no ! doesnt mean no shenanigans
19:30	amalloy	man i forget if you are the guy with a haskell background or not
19:30	amalloy	if not this was a silly comparison
19:30	EvanR	"haskell background" lol
19:30	SagiCZ1	,(if-let [a 5 b 6] (println a b))
19:30	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: clojure.core/if-let requires exactly 2 forms in binding vector in sandbox:, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_FILE:0:0)>
19:30	EvanR	does that exist yet
19:30	amalloy	it's like ruby's enumerable, kinda
19:30	SagiCZ1	okay
19:30	amalloy	EvanR: huh? haskell's been around for over a decade
19:31	amalloy	probably over two, but i'm not sure
19:31	dbasch	ruby bang is pretty random as an indicator of mutability
19:31	justin_smith	amalloy: ~2, for sure, I remember hearing about it in the late '90s and it wasn't brand new
19:32	dbasch	it’s more like “I bet you didn’t expect this to mutate stuff, did you?”
19:32	dbasch	there are plenty of bang-less methods that mutate things
19:32	EvanR	the similarly named ruby functions keep_if is the opposite of delete_if but doesnt mutate
19:32	EvanR	for some reason
19:33	technomancy	I read ruby bang as a "there's another version of this that's non-destructive; that's probably the one you want" marker
19:33	amalloy	justin_smith: 1990 for 1.0, apparently
19:33	dbasch	technomancy: to me it’s more like “read the docs for this because it may do unexpected shit”
19:33	justin_smith	cool, gonna be on a third decade before we know it
19:34	dbasch	technomancy: e.g. compact and compact! on arrays
19:34	EvanR	read the docs, then give up and read the source code, if you can
19:34	EvanR	because they write it using instance_eval
19:36	hiredman	/win 5
19:37	justin_smith	dbasch: let's change the names to pmap‽ and flatten‽
19:37	EvanR	amalloy: seq's interface seems to be, "get the next thing" and "unget a thing" https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/ISeq.java
19:38	EvanR	rather than foldable
19:38	dbasch	with the bonus that the interrobang makes them harder to type and you have to wait for autocompletion
19:38	amalloy	well, there's get the current thing and get the rest of the things, which is isomorphic to foldable
19:38	noonian	its get the next thing, and get everything else
19:38	amalloy	cons is not exactly related to that
19:39	EvanR	foldable is about reducing all the things with an accumulator
19:39	EvanR	the cons thing is curious
19:40	amalloy	yes, and? that's the same as head/tail, in that you can implement one in terms of the other
19:41	EvanR	i dont think you can implement a head/tail with foldable
19:42	EvanR	might be wrong
19:49	amalloy	EvanR: maybe not. it's easy to get head, but getting a tail that preserves the type is harder than i thought. they serve similar purposes, but i guess may not be isomorphic
19:51	hyPiRion	a tail that preserves type with foldr assumes the underlying structure has a tail in the first place. That's not necessary with foldable
19:52	amalloy	hyPiRion: i was imagining you could return a new foldable thing which delegates to the first one and ignores the first value of it, or fold over it with a function that knows how to ignore exactly one value
19:52	amalloy	the first is impossible; the second actually is probably doable now that i think about it
19:52	hyPiRion	amalloy: oh right, that you can do
19:52	amalloy	but both of those are really hard if you want to return something of exactly the same type as your input
19:52	amalloy	when all you know is that the input is foldable
19:52	hyPiRion	That's like, drop for foldables
19:53	amalloy	hyPiRion: right, which is easy in clojure, but not at all obvious for a more strictly typed thing. like, writing `rest :: Foldable t => t a -> t a` is harder than i thought
19:55	SagiCZ1	i decided to work with vectors but most clojure functions return seq.. should i always make sure to convert them into a vector?
19:55	hyPiRion	amalloy: it's possible to return a foldable though (t a -> Foldable a). Don't think you can be isomorphic
19:55	amalloy	hyPiRion: for sure that's possible, yes
19:55	amalloy	because you can just write `rest = tail . toList`
19:56	hyPiRion	right
19:57	amalloy	SagiCZ1: usually you should work with vectors only when you need some property of theirs that seq doesn't have; at other times, use a seq
19:58	SagiCZ1	amall
19:58	SagiCZ1	amalloy: i see, thanks
20:00	SagiCZ1	take-last sometimes returns something called Clojure.lang.Cons, why?
20:00	justin_smith	,(type (cons 1 nil))
20:00	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList
20:01	SagiCZ1	i did (take-last n vector-coll) and then (vector-coll index) and that throws clojure.lang.Cons cant be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
20:01	hyPiRion	justin_smith: you have it the other way around: Cons returns list, list* returns cons
20:01	hyPiRion	,(type (list* 1 2 3 ()))
20:01	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Cons
20:02	justin_smith	hyPiRion: d'oh, of course, how could I not remember something so simple!
20:02	SagiCZ1	i dont know if i should care about it or stick to vectors or what :(
20:02	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: the return value of take-last is not callable, even if its input was
20:03	technomancy	just don't pay attention to the class
20:03	technomancy	pay attention to the interfaces
20:03	amalloy	SagiCZ1: take-last is not a thing that vectors can do efficiently. maybe it's time to step back and think about what you need to be able to do to your collections
20:05	SagiCZ1	i really just need to just add a new value to it sometimes, read last n values from it.. and sometimes i need to trim some old values to keep it from growing too big
20:05	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: trim from which end?
20:05	amalloy	that sounds mostly like a queue
20:05	justin_smith	amalloy: I was wondering, yeah
20:06	justin_smith	,(into [] (-> clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY (conj :a) (conj :b) pop))
20:06	clojurebot	[:b]
20:06	justin_smith	reusing an example I shared before
20:06	SagiCZ1	from the beginning
20:06	SagiCZ1	queue...
20:06	justin_smith	the into is just being used for display purposes - it doesn't print nicely
20:06	technomancy	clojurebot: queuefish?
20:06	clojurebot	I don't understand.
20:06	technomancy	clojurebot: the hell you don't
20:06	clojurebot	Excuse me?
20:06	SagiCZ1	wait it totally is queue
20:07	technomancy	bots these days
20:07	technomancy	lazy slackers
20:07	SagiCZ1	:)
20:07	justin_smith	~quefish
20:07	clojurebot	I don't understand.
20:07	hyPiRion	lazybot: you heard him
20:08	SagiCZ1	the weird thing about queue is that you usually add new item to the head right? .. but that should be considered the "last" or "newest" item.. which usually has the highest index which is associated with tail in my head
20:09	noonian	thats an implementation detail of a queue imo
20:09	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: you can try out variations of what I put in above to see how it works - conj adds to the end, pop takes off the left (peek gets the item you would have popped)
20:10	SagiCZ1	and is that the only way to create this queue in clojure? there is nothing similar to 'vec', 'vector' or something?
20:10	amalloy	SagiCZ1: curiously enough, no, there is no better way built in
20:11	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: because you always start with an empty one, right?
20:12	SagiCZ1	justin_smith: i guess so
20:12	justin_smith	though many of us would like a prettier syntax for the empty one built in
20:12	justin_smith	that's what technomancy was talking about with queuefish
20:12	SagiCZ1	,(clojure.lang.PersistentQueue)
20:12	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Class cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
20:12	technomancy	justin_smith: no, this is clearly the deranged utterings of a madman
20:12	SagiCZ1	,(clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY)
20:12	clojurebot	#<PersistentQueue clojure.lang.PersistentQueue@1>
20:12	technomancy	don't try to read sense into it
20:13	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: it's an empty coll, not a function that generates an empty coll
20:13	justin_smith	oh wait, it also returns itself when you call it? funny
20:13	justin_smith	never thought to try that
20:13	justin_smith	oh wait
20:13	justin_smith	,(Math/PI)
20:13	clojurebot	3.141592653589793
20:13	justin_smith	it's that thingy
20:13	justin_smith	interop can be weird
20:13	technomancy	bot quirk?
20:13	SagiCZ1	wait what, thats odd
20:14	SagiCZ1	works in my repl too
20:14	justin_smith	technomancy: nope, it's a legacy thing I guess?
20:14	technomancy	huh
20:14	justin_smith	it's always worked
20:14	SagiCZ1	it was actually a newb mistake, i didnt want to use the parens
20:14	justin_smith	it's weird
20:14	amalloy	technomancy, justin_smith: (Foo/bar) worked before Foo/bar was introduced
20:14	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: right, then I tried to figure out why it worked :)
20:14	justin_smith	amalloy: right, legacy
20:14	technomancy	no kidding
20:14	technomancy	deep magic from the dawn of time
20:15	SagiCZ1	i guess i could just make some tiny wrappers for the queue to make it more readible in my code.. what's stopping me right
20:15	amalloy	SagiCZ1: folks usually do
20:15	justin_smith	,queue-fish
20:15	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: queue-fish in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
20:15	justin_smith	~queue-fish
20:15	clojurebot	Pardon?
20:15	SagiCZ1	~tired?
20:15	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
20:16	justin_smith	anyway queue-fish is https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure-dev/GQqus5Wycno
20:16	SagiCZ1	thanks
20:19	justin_smith	I think a readable print is a bigger deal with queues - unlike anything else that is sequential and persistent, they don't have a nice printed representation that shows the contents.
20:20	SagiCZ1	justin_smith: how come? isnt queue also a sequence of some sort?
20:21	justin_smith	it is, but it prints ugly
20:21	justin_smith	,(conj clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY 1)
20:21	clojurebot	#<PersistentQueue clojure.lang.PersistentQueue@20>
20:21	justin_smith	no hint of the contents
20:21	justin_smith	,(seq (conj clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY 1))
20:21	clojurebot	(1)
20:22	SagiCZ1	oh i see
20:26	justin_smith	but anyway, if you want to add on one end, and drop from the other, you do definitely want a queue, probably that one
20:26	justin_smith	even if it doesn't print nicely
20:27	technomancy	clojurebot: queuefish is print-method magic to get (conj (conj clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY 12) 9) ; -> <-(12 9)-<
20:27	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
20:27	technomancy	clojurebot: queue-fish is queuefish
20:27	clojurebot	c'est bon!
20:28	hiredman	~queuefish
20:28	clojurebot	queuefish is print-method magic to get (conj (conj clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY 12) 9) ; -> <-(12 9)-<
20:28	hiredman	~queuefish
20:28	clojurebot	queuefish is print-method magic to get (conj (conj clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY 12) 9) ; -> <-(12 9)-<
20:28	hiredman	blegh
20:28	hiredman	some day
20:29	amalloy	hiredman: hm?
20:29	justin_smith	,(seq (conj clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY 12 9)) ; bike shedding a factoid
20:29	clojurebot	(12 9)
20:30	technomancy	http://p.hagelb.org/mrfp.gif
20:30	hiredman	amalloy: clojurebot assumes 'is' means equivalence so it is free to permute and infer
20:30	amalloy	right...which i thought technomancy was using on purpose to create two copies of that factoid
20:31	hiredman	but you also get queuefish is queue-fish out of that too
20:31	technomancy	I was hoping for a redirect but ... who can fathom the mysteries of clojurebot
20:31	technomancy	dang
20:31	justin_smith	~queue-fish
20:31	clojurebot	queue-fish is queuefish
20:31	hiredman	hence my "some day"
20:38	Bronsa	bbloom: the compiler silently ignores type hints in so many places it's not even funny
20:39	amalloy	sigh i just wrote a lexicographic sort for vectors of 1-2 elements out by hand. why didn't i just use some standard sort thingy?
20:40	justin_smith	amalloy: I am sure your version is unrolled and super-duper optimized
20:40	tuft	amalloy: at least you haven't typed it in yet
20:42	gfredericks	,(sort [[1 3] [5 4] [3 3]])
20:42	clojurebot	([1 3] [3 3] [5 4])
20:42	amalloy	gfredericks: that's fine for 2 elements
20:42	amalloy	try 1-2
20:42	andyf	Bronsa: t.a.j used to throw on (extend-type (class (log-window-proxy nil)) ...) but latest does not. That sound intentional to you? I think it was.
20:42	gfredericks	,(sort [[1 3] [5 4] [3]])
20:42	clojurebot	([3] [1 3] [5 4])
20:42	gfredericks	,(sort-by (juxt first second) [[1 3] [5 4] [3]])
20:42	clojurebot	([1 3] [3] [5 4])
20:43	amalloy	hm, that's a good point
20:43	amalloy	,(sort [nil 4])
20:43	clojurebot	(nil 4)
20:43	gfredericks	woah did I just show amalloy how to use juxt to solve a problem
20:43	gfredericks	I think I just beat #clojure
20:43	justin_smith	(inc gfredericks)
20:43	lazybot	⇒ 101
20:43	andyf	Andyf's mind also blown
20:44	andyf	gfredericks: Wait, you can still hear us? You were supposed to go to the next level.
20:44	Bronsa	andyf: t.a.j should still throw on that, it's probably getting caught by the wrong-tag handler though
20:44	Bronsa	andyf: by eastwood's wrong-tag-handler, that is
20:45	Bronsa	(inc gfredericks)
20:45	lazybot	⇒ 102
20:45	andyf	Bronsa: Got it. I still need to tweak the wrong tag linter better
20:45	gfredericks	andyf: hold on let me take out the cartridge and blow in it
20:46	andyf	gfredericks: No like red/blue pill next level
20:48	Bronsa	andyf: btw have you seen missing line/col info by any chance?
20:49	andyf	Bronsa: Some but not a lot. I try to improve thosr when I can but I may run out of steam on some of them for nect
20:49	andyf	Next release , except to create an issue
20:50	andyf	Steam, meaning enthusiasm for debigging every last thing
20:50	andyf	I am on fire with typos today
20:51	amalloy	debigging. apple autocorrect strikes again?
20:51	amalloy	i can't imagine that's even in their dictionary though
20:51	andyf	To manager: yeah I just need to debig my code a bit more and we'll be ready to ship.
20:51	gfredericks	s/ship/shup/
20:52	justin_smith	"this is messed up because of a method too large error, time for some debigging"
20:52	andyf	That was just iPhone fat fingers
20:52	gfredericks	andyf: you're halfway to the correct kiwi pronunciation
20:52	Bronsa	andyf: yeah no worries, I was just asking bcos I saw some missing source info earlier and that shouldn't happen
20:52	Bronsa	I think I have a fix though.
20:53	andyf	Nice
20:58	bbloom	Bronsa: yeah, true
20:59	bbloom	Bronsa: i guess the issue i hit was that the type hints are inconsistent between symbols and class objects
20:59	amalloy	well, in fairness to me it looks like i at least got the case analysis right on my hand-unrolled compare-via-juxt
20:59	dbasch	debigging code embiggens my salary, it’s a perfectly cromulent use of my time
21:00	Bronsa	bbloom: andyf can attest how many open source libs (even big ones) have wrong/useless tags
21:00	bbloom	yeah, i'm ok with useless tags
21:00	bbloom	i rather over tag than under if they aren't doing harm
21:00	bbloom	i'm just not ok with silent slowness that i can't find easily
21:00	Bronsa	bbloom: by useless I mean possibly useful tags in position where the compiler will ignore them
21:00	bbloom	and i really do believe slow and working is a better default than ONLY FAST but compiler type checking headache trying to get it there
21:01	andyf	The rules for which ones are useful are not something I keep on my head even yet
21:01	bbloom	yeah
21:01	bbloom	i have this project that has a bunch of bits that need to be super fast, but those bits are also really tricky to get right and have a ton of duplication that macros can solve for me
21:01	bbloom	getting fast code generated is proving reasonably tricky
21:02	bbloom	and it's probably likely i'll convert a bunch of key bits to java to get the maximum perf in some corner cases
21:03	bbloom	takes some mental energy to resist the urge to optimize/rewrite like crazy, but it's worth the mental energy savings in being able to work in clojure to start with
21:03	dbasch	but sometimes it’s necessary to leave the clojure bike and drive the java minivan
21:04	bbloom	but fixing some unboxed math right now involved some definlines and whatnot... got me a 40% win on one of the most important fast paths
21:04	Bronsa	nice
21:04	bbloom	i haven't dug too deep in to the byte code, but i suspect that i can do even better
21:05	Bronsa	... according to core definline/:inline should be avoided
21:05	hiredman	core is so weird
21:07	bbloom	given the commitment to back compat, seems unlikely for definline to go away
21:07	hiredman	indeed
21:08	bbloom	and although it's ugly as hell to template-ize syntax-quote whole functions, it considerably speeds up my inner loop
21:08	bbloom	i've got 3 definline usages, for a total of about 15 lines of code and 7 call sites in a ~5k program that does some pretty funky low level stuff to begin with
21:09	bbloom	i'm comfortable w/ the tradeoffs, although i wish for a language that scaled to the lowest level more gracefully
21:09	bbloom	that said, clojure is surprisingly graceful at it compared to pretty much any other dynamic language i've ever used (although i've never done any perf work in CL)
21:11	turbofail	you can do all sorts of grungy low-level things in SBCL, including going down to assembly
21:11	turbofail	oh hey look that /msg spammer is back
21:11	turbofail	zoom__: find a new link at least
21:11	TEttinger	solo hoy!
21:11	TEttinger	only now! can you be spammed
21:18	marcuscreo	howd
21:18	marcuscreo	howdy
21:21	Bronsa	andyf: source-info should be fixed for good now
21:23	andyf	I'll give it a whirl and see what happens.
21:30	mdeboard	hiredman: Is techsonian.net related to techsonian.com?
21:46	gfredericks	does clojurescript include a format function these days? if not where would I get one?
21:48	justin_smith	gfredericks: clojurescript.net lets me use format
21:49	gfredericks	grepping the cljs repo suggests it's not provided
21:49	gfredericks	I think it was in the past though
21:49	justin_smith	http://clojurescript.net/ works in this repl
21:50	gfredericks	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-324
21:50	gfredericks	clojurescript.net is a whole nother impl amirite?
21:51	justin_smith	oh yeah, it is the self hosting version from kanaka
21:51	justin_smith	never mind that then
21:51	gfredericks	I guess I'll try goog.string.format
21:52	gfredericks	actually I think that's probably what this code was using implicitly anyhow
22:11	csd_	Anyone know how to set autoreconnect=true in Korma?
22:21	arrdem	dbasch: ping
22:21	dbasch	pong
22:26	danneu	i didn't know assoc could take more than 1 k/v pair. slightly nicer than using merge when the kvs you're merging weren't already in a map.
22:27	justin_smith	how would merge be better if they were?
22:28	justin_smith	,(assoc {:a 0} :a 42 :b 1 :c 2)
22:28	clojurebot	{:c 2, :b 1, :a 42}
22:28	danneu	when you're actually merging map data
22:28	justin_smith	mow, merge-with on the other hand
22:28	justin_smith	oh, I misread
22:29	justin_smith	*a map
22:30	gfredericks	,(merge-with #(list %1 %2 %1 %2) {:a 0 :b 5} {:b 7 :c 8})
22:30	clojurebot	{:c 8, :b (5 7 5 7), :a 0}
22:31	gfredericks	,(merge-with #(list %1 %2 %1 %2) {:a 0 :b 5} {:b 7 :c 8} {:b 2})
22:31	clojurebot	{:c 8, :b ((5 7 5 7) 2 (5 7 5 7) 2), :a 0}
22:31	gfredericks	wee
22:35	justin_smith	,(defn combine [a & rest] (letfn [(vectorize [v] (into {} (map (fn [[k v]] [k [v]]) v)))] (reduce (fn [a b] (merge-with into a (vectorize b))) (vectorize a) rest)))
22:35	clojurebot	#'sandbox/combine
22:35	justin_smith	,(combine {:a 0 :b 1} {:a 42 :b 420} {:a -1 :b 666})
22:35	clojurebot	{:b [1 420 666], :a [0 42 -1]}
22:36	justin_smith	,(combine {:a 0 :b 1} {:a 42 :b 420} {:a -1 :b 666 :c 3})
22:36	clojurebot	{:c [3], :b [1 420 666], :a [0 42 -1]}
23:30	ddellacosta	folks: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/AYe1opodrGA
23:31	ddellacosta	(hope it's okay I push that here)
23:31	ddellacosta	(let me know if not and I'll abstain)
23:39	amalloy	ddellacosta: seems totally fine to link to once. more than once would probably be uncouth
23:39	ddellacosta	amalloy: gotcha, thanks--I'll leave it at that. It's on the list so presumably folks will find it there anyways.
23:52	TimMc	ddellacosta: My only feedback is that I don't know why I'd bother clicking the link, other than that I'm a folk. :-P
23:53	ddellacosta	TimMc: ah, good point. Job posting for Clojure dev/sysadmin devops position. :-)
23:53	TimMc	Best of luck!
23:53	ddellacosta	TimMc: thanks!
23:56	TimMc	Have you tried http://functionaljobs.com/ ?
23:57	ddellacosta	TimMc: not yet, we are still going through our options
23:57	TimMc	If I were looking for a Clojure position, that's probably the first place I'd check, but maybe 'cause I just happen to know about it.
23:59	ddellacosta	TimMc: hmm, good to know!