#clojure – 2014-10-17

2014-10-17

00:02	TEttinger	,`('~list 1 2 3)
00:02	clojurebot	((quote #<clojure.lang.PersistentList$1@3d6600>) 1 2 3)
00:02	tbaldridge	,(eval `(~'list 1 2 3))
00:02	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
00:02	TEttinger	we have eval in clojurebot too!
00:02	TEttinger	wow
00:03	TEttinger	(inc tbaldridge)
00:03	lazybot	⇒ 11
00:03	tbaldridge	hrm....
00:03	TEttinger	the ~ and ' are reversed
00:03	tbaldridge	,(clojure.java.shell/sh "rm -rf /")
00:03	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.java.shell>
00:03	tbaldridge	,(eval '(clojure.java.shell/sh "rm -rf /"))
00:03	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.java.shell>
00:03	tbaldridge	well that's good at least...
00:03	TEttinger	tbaldridge: there's a sandbox anyway
00:03	TEttinger	,(File. "/")
00:03	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Unable to resolve classname: File, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
00:04	amalloy	right, TEttinger. ~'list evaluates to the symbol list, whereas '~ evaluates to a quoting of the function list
00:04	TEttinger	,(java.util.File. "/")
00:04	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: java.util.File, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
00:04	TEttinger	,(java.io.File. "/")
00:04	clojurebot	#<File />
00:04	TEttinger	huh
00:04	rntz^2	amalloy: right, and quoting the function list is what I was trying to do
00:04	amalloy	TEttinger: there's nothing wrong with making a File object; clojurebot just doesn't let you do anything with it
00:04	amalloy	no it's not, rntz^2
00:04	rntz^2	,(eval `('~list 1 2 3))
00:04	clojurebot	#<ExceptionInInitializerError java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError>
00:05	rntz^2	amalloy: no, trust me, it absolutely is.
00:05	amalloy	i mean, i guess there's no law against trying to do things which are bad
00:05	rntz^2	the code in question is actually passed in a function, it's not using list specifically.
00:05	rntz^2	I'm writing a... rather strange implementation of quasiquote
00:06	rntz^2	and it uses this, and it works in scheme, but because of this it doesn't quite work in clojure
00:06	amalloy	you cannot embed arbitrary objects (including functions) into the middle of code and have them evaluate to something meaningful
00:06	rntz^2	well. maybe. but it does work for functions other than list. in fact, the problem seems to have something to do with the fact that list is not exactly a function.
00:07	TEttinger	is list a macro?
00:07	amalloy	it works, more or less by coincidence, for functions which are not closures
00:07	amalloy	list is a weird special case, i agree
00:07	rntz^2	oh, interesting.
00:08	amalloy	TEttinger: list has no clojure source code; it's defined in PersistentList.java or somewhere like that
00:08	rntz^2	huh, it fails for closures. weird
00:08	rntz^2	,(let [x 0] (eval `'~(fn [] x)))
00:08	clojurebot	#<ExceptionInInitializerError java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError>
00:08	amalloy	rntz^2: anything you couldn't type in, you should not embed in code
00:09	rntz^2	look, I'm not here to get lectured at. you can just tell me it doesn't work and be on your way :P.
00:09	amalloy	i have been, and yet here you are
00:15	tbaldridge	~gentlemen
00:15	clojurebot	You can't fight in here. This is the war room.
00:17	TEttinger	clojurebot: gentleman \|is\| not as good as Gangnam Style.
00:17	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
00:18	kenrestivo	gentlemen is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oD3pbOBP50
00:25	ddellacosta	woah, that is kickass
00:38	razum2um	does anyone know why "clojure"? is it changed "closure" (but why?) or anything else?
00:42	ivan	razum2um: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/766b75baa7987850
02:08	andyf	,clojure-version
02:08	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 7, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
02:08	andyf	,(apropos “replace")
02:08	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading string>
02:09	andyf	,(apropos “str”)
02:09	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: “str” in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
02:11	dysfun_	have there been any experimental reader replacements for clojure, out of interest?
02:12	TEttinger	smart quotes, andyf
02:12	TEttinger	,(apropos "replace")
02:12	clojurebot	(clojure.core/replace clojure.string/re-quote-replacement clojure.string/replace clojure.string/replace-first)
02:12	andyf	Huh, didn’t know I was producing smart quotes. Thx.
02:13	TEttinger	np
02:14	andyf	Anyone know how to disable Colloquy client on Mac OS X from generating smart quotes?
02:15	TEttinger	it may be a mac thing...
02:16	andyf	Found it via Google, which is what I should have checked first for such a non-Clojurey question
02:16	andyf	,(apropos "walk")
02:16	clojurebot	()
02:34	andyf	dysfun_: I don't know if it woud be categorized as experimental, but the tools.reader contrib library is not identical to the built-in reader
02:35	andyf	What kind of differences from the built-in reader would you consider experimental?
02:50	dysfun_	andyf: well in particular i was wondering whether someone had just replaced the reader with a parser that compiled down to clojure, but y'know, a real parser, not an AST reader
02:51	andyf	dysfun_: So that Clojure got a different syntax available for developers?
02:51	dysfun_	yes
02:52	dysfun_	syntax is just sugar. i'm wondering how it would play out in practice
02:52	dysfun_	i mean obviously you lose a lot of the utility of macros if you go non-homoiconic
02:54	dysfun_	i'm experimenting with a pythonic syntax sugar. the code isn't too horrible
02:54	dysfun_	well, the pythonic syntax isn't too horrible, i mean
02:55	andyf	Almost every lisp dialect has had a "fewer parentheses" alternate syntax proposed for it (often more than once), e.g. a discussion thread from 2009 here: https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/#search/clojure+alternate+syntax/11fa43cf06119121
02:56	andyf	I haven't seen one of those go past the stage of a curiosity, though.
02:56	dysfun_	yes, it's a common thing in lisp communities :)
02:56	dysfun_	and the historical solutions are interesting
02:57	dysfun_	fexprs, for example. i think they only really fell out of favour because they played badly with dynamic scoping, which most lisps were using at the time
02:59	andyf	I don't recall hearing of someone working on Python-y syntax that compiles to Clojure before. There was a project to create an implementation of Clojure that compiled to Python, but that isn't the same thing at all.
03:00	dysfun_	yes, i saw that
03:00	dysfun_	i liked his quote: "those who don't understand the work of rich hickey are doomed to repeat it poorly"
03:04	dysfun_	hrm, i see that <> are not documented as permitted values in symbols. i wonder if there was an idea at some point to use them for new literal syntax? obviously too many libraries do use them already and the auto-generated record functions do
03:06	dysfun_	i'm not sure what you might use more kinds of brackets to denote
03:08	amalloy	dysfun_: i mean, there's clojure.core/>. it's pretty clear that's intended to be a valid symbol
03:08	andyf	dysfun_: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1527 may bring the implementation and documentation into closer agreement some day
03:09	dysfun_	:)
03:18	dysfun_	i can't think of a reasonable use for <> anyway. And we could still have #<>
03:20	andyf	dysfun_: Not sure I understand: do you mean that you think < and > should be renamed in core?
03:21	andyf	dysfun_: Oh, you mean what a new set of 'brackets' could be used to mean in Clojure, the way that {} [] () and #{} are defined now for collections
03:21	dysfun_	yes
03:22	hyPiRion	Perhaps sensible to use #[] before we get to <>. And we already got #<> so
03:27	dysfun_	what's #<> ?
03:27	dysfun_	,(class #<>)
03:27	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unreadable form>
03:27	rpaulo	when's 1.7.0 coming out?
03:28	hyPiRion	dysfun_: unreadable forms, like ##(Object.)
03:28	lazybot	⇒ #<Object java.lang.Object@1c25dc5f>
03:29	dysfun_	hrm
04:24	hellofunk	does anyone know how on Ring to use this fix that normally involves an .htaccess file? http://wpvkp.com/font-awesome-doesnt-display-in-firefox-maxcdn/
04:25	dysfun_	you can do that with a middleware
04:26	dysfun_	there may even be a general purpose middleware that can do it already
04:26	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
04:39	clgv	hellofunk: yeah you can definitely implement setting of that header data as ring middleware and maybe there is already one for similar tasks
04:42	inad922	Hi
04:42	inad922	How do you parse and format dates in clojure?
04:43	ssideris	inad922: https://github.com/clj-time/clj-time
04:43	inad922	ssideris: Thanks
04:43	ssideris	this is a pretty popular wrapper of Joda time
04:43	xsyn	what's the syntax for using an anonymous function with multiple arguements in a thread ?
04:44	clgv	xsyn: what?
04:44	xsyn	er...
04:44	inad922	Joda time?
04:44	inad922	What is that?
04:45	xsyn	clgv: I'm trying to filter a dataset
04:45	clgv	inad922: just have a look at clj-time ;)
04:45	clgv	xsyn: can you give an example to the above question? I really do not understand what you want exactly
04:45	inad922	k :)
04:46	inad922	Is there like a package repository for clojure? I come from python and I look for something like Pypi.
04:46	inad922	leiningen is like pip I guess
04:47	xsyn	(defn getuser [user] (-> data (filter (= (nth (split data ", ") 11) user)))
04:47	xsyn	is kinda what I want to do
04:47	algernon	inad922: clojars
04:47	inad922	algernon: Thanks
04:50	inad922	Can you suggest a good book/tutorial on clojure? I prefer something where I have to create a working application.
04:51	dysfun_	Clojure in action has a lot of examples you can type out. Although it's quite outdated now.
04:52	dysfun_	I think TJOC is probably the best book, but it's not really that style of book
04:53	dysfun_	is there a way to get at the typing information of some code without executing and instrumenting it?
04:54	dysfun_	what types clojure thinks it might contain, i mean
04:54	dysfun_	that's a really bad explanation. i would like to be able to ask clojure what it thinks the type of an expression is
04:56	dysfun_	i appreciate in a lot of cases it's going to come back java.lang.Object
04:57	hyPiRion	dysfun_: If you use core.typed, you can use holes.
04:58	dysfun_	hrm, that's an idea
04:58	hyPiRion	That's for definitions only though. If you want to go into expressions like (+ 1 2), then I guess tools.analyzer could probably do some inference?
04:59	SagiCZ1	dysfun_: i really hated TJOC, Clojure Programming is way better IMO
05:00	SagiCZ1	maybe i just read it with athe wrong level of prior understanding
05:01	dysfun_	perhaps. i read it after many years of using other lisps
05:02	dysfun_	but i think language design is really interesting, and they helped to build up a better picture of the reasons why clojure is designed in given ways
05:03	hellofunk	does anyone know why the second Om/build only displays if I remove the first om/build in this snippet: https://www.refheap.com/91883
05:10	clgv	xsyn: and you want to have the `filter` expression parallelized?
05:10	clgv	xsyn: or run a get-user invocation in a different thread?
05:13	xsyn	the way I understand the thread macro is that it will work on the first thing that you are threading (in this case data), my question is if I have another variable that I want to look at (say in this case I want to look up a user) how to I pass that arguement into the thread macro.
05:13	xsyn	that's the question really
05:14	clgv	xsyn: ah you are talking about the threading macros.
05:15	clgv	xsyn: if `data` is a collection and I interpret your code right, you just need to use `->>` instead of `->`
05:15	clgv	xsyn: though there is no real advantag to use threading for a single form
05:16	clgv	xsyn: ah no, sorry there is another error. so what is `data` and `user`?
05:16	xsyn	data is a coll
05:17	xsyn	and user is a string
05:17	xsyn	collection*
05:17	xsyn	what's the difference between -> and -->
05:18	xsyn	err ->>
05:18	dysfun_	-> threads to second place, ->> to last place
05:22	clgv	xsyn: so you actually want (defn getuser [user] (filter #(= (nth (split % ", ") 11) user) data)) ?
05:23	clgv	xsyn: in this case you should have tried to get a working `filter` expression first and then introduce threading macros in case you need to apply seq functions on the result
05:31	dysfun_	i can't seem to find the source for in-ns
05:32	xsyn	just found the macro-expand function which has helped a lot
05:32	xsyn	thanks guys
05:35	xsyn	cool, working like I want it to.
05:36	xsyn	thank you
05:43	dysfun_	macroexpand-1 is useful too where you want to not expand everything
06:21	clgv	,(macroexpand '(let [a 1] (-> 1 inc (* 2)))
06:21	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
06:21	clgv	,(macroexpand '(let [a 1] (-> 1 inc (* 2))))
06:21	clojurebot	(let* [a 1] (-> 1 inc (* 2)))
06:21	clgv	dysfun_: ^^ ;)
06:56	szymanowski	Hi, is there a way of reimplement "invoke" on vectors and/or lists?
06:56	clgv	szymanowski: with which gal?
06:57	clgv	*goal
06:57	szymanowski	treat them as functions that do what i want
06:57	clgv	szymanowski: which is?
06:58	clgv	szymanowski: why not just write a function that does what you want with a vector?
06:58	szymanowski	for exemple apply all the fns they contain on the argument
06:59	clgv	szymanowski: that's to specific to be part of some vector implementation. just write a function that does that
07:00	szymanowski	yes i could do like this but it seems more handy to just treat them as functions when i want
07:00	szymanowski	in a particular namespace it should be handy
07:00	clgv	,((apply juxt [inc dec #(+ % 10)]) 0)
07:00	clojurebot	[1 -1 10]
07:01	szymanowski	yes i know i can do that
07:01	szymanowski	but... it seems great to me to be able to reimplement invoke
07:01	szymanowski	thank you
07:02	clgv	szymanowski: but you are conflicting with a general clojure principle here. you dont want to treat vectors as simple data anymore but you want to build some kind of special object that does application specific stuff. I guess this is the approach you'd choose in OOP
07:02	szymanowski	yes you're probably right, i'm new to FP
07:03	clgv	szymanowski: honestly, I really do not see the advantage over a once defined function
07:04	szymanowski	in the program i'm writing every type is also an invokable, so much of the mecanics lay on that fact
07:05	szymanowski	and i have to create custom type that behave exactely like vecs or lists with just the invoke impl changed
07:05	szymanowski	it's quite inelegant
07:05	szymanowski	in my opinion
07:08	dysfun_	then you probably don't want this
07:16	szymanowski	ok thank you
07:54	dysfun_	are there any useful symbols that are reserved that could be abused as reader syntax?
07:54	dysfun_	preferably ones that aren't likely to be used
07:57	clgv	szymanowski: you know that you can use `partial` to combine a function and a vector to pass them into the context where you need the "invokables"
08:02	szymanowski	yes i know partial, it seems like a way, i will try
08:48	cYmen_	, [a b]
08:48	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: a in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
08:51	TEttinger	,[1 2]
08:51	clojurebot	[1 2]
08:52	clgv	,'[a b]
08:52	clojurebot	[a b]
08:53	clgv	,(mapv type '[a b])
08:53	clojurebot	[clojure.lang.Symbol clojure.lang.Symbol]
08:53	clgv	teaching by example ;)
08:55	clgv	the combination ":(" should be mandatory for exceptions and every editor/ide should render it as smiley. Then Clojure would communicate that it is sad about Exceptions ... :D
08:56	TEttinger	;( for NPEs
08:58	TimMc	Gruh, `lein release` with :deploy-via :clojars tries to use Clojars' disabled SCP endpoint.
08:59	TimMc	Do I need to say {:deploy-via :shell, :shell ["lein" "deploy" "clojars"]} or something?
09:00	clgv	TEttinger: hehe yes
09:01	TEttinger	TimMc: what version of lein?
09:01	TimMc	2.4.2
09:02	clgv	TimMc: oh. do you have a working setup for "lein release" with version increment and such? (except from deploy)
09:02	TimMc	yeah
09:02	clgv	available on github?
09:02	TimMc	Looks like :shell works, it's just silly.
09:03	TimMc	clgv: Well, no -- my .lein/credentials.clj.gpg is not public. :-)
09:03	clgv	I didn't upgrade my projects to "lein release" yet. I only use "lein deploy" after everything is built
09:03	clgv	TimMc: doesn't matter I am only interested in project.clj ;)
09:03	TimMc	clgv: Don't you have to roll back to the tagged commit before deploy, then?
09:04	TimMc	I just accidentally lein deploy'd a SNAPSHOT because I failed to do that.
09:04	clgv	TimMc: I didnt use leiningen for anything git related so far
09:04	TimMc	Oh, misread.
09:04	CookedGryphon	the lein release stuff needs more sanity checking
09:05	clgv	TimMc: I usually do "lein do clean, install" followed by "lein deploy clojars" on success ;)
09:05	TimMc	`lein release` is a little annoying. It's opinionated about various things that it oughtn't.
09:05	CookedGryphon	for example if you do a lein release, then half way through it realises you haven't yet set your GPG key, you have half a release and commits floating around and have to revert things manually
09:05	clgv	oh
09:05	TimMc	yeah
09:06	clgv	does it offer hooks to customize like for the rest of leiningen?
09:06	TimMc	Not really.
09:06	CookedGryphon	are you sure? I thought you could customise every step
09:07	CookedGryphon	just set the release process to include some code in a plugin?
09:08	CookedGryphon	My main annoyance is that I can't decide to release say 0.1.8-SNAPSHOT as 0.2.0 if I decide the snapshot warrants a major version change. Obviously for libraries these changes should happen along with the changes that cause them to add features/break compatibility or whatever
09:08	CookedGryphon	but I'm developing an application, and want to release versions when I decide it's got enough new features
09:09	TimMc	clgv: https://github.com/timmc/handy/blob/master/project.clj
09:10	TimMc	CookedGryphon: I bump the version as soon as I make a minor or major change -- right on the branch, or even in the same commit.
09:10	TimMc	I think it's a good habit to get into.
09:12	CookedGryphon	TimMc: Yeah, as I said, that's a perfectly good workflow for libraries
09:12	CookedGryphon	but I'm releasing an application so can't really say ahead of time what constitutes a version change
09:12	CookedGryphon	as it's not as simple as "does this break back compatibility" because there's no such thing
09:12	TimMc	Jesus, what's wrong with my reading comprehension recently. :-/
09:13	TimMc	I blame lack of sleep.
09:13	CookedGryphon	:P
09:16	stain	CookedGryphon: if you use something like Artifactory as your Maven repository, then you can deploy to a staging repository and then do a click in the web interface to make it live once finished. Simiarly you can do the git work on a different staging repository that you push yourself from afterwards.
09:16	stain	a bit more heavyweight Java enterprise style than the Clojure leiningen clojars approach though..
09:17	TimMc	Anyway, I just pushed an addition to org.timmc/handy -- tabular-delta, a more reliable way of writing midje tabular tests when you're only perturbing things from a working baseline. https://github.com/timmc/handy/blob/master/src/org/timmc/handy.clj#L158
09:18	CookedGryphon	stain: I use github releases for deployment of an intermediate, then the exact same package gets promoted to beta testing, and if it's all good the same package gets pushed out as a release
09:18	CookedGryphon	as a result I have a version scheme of <marketing-hoo-ha>.<user-visible-version>.<candidate-build>
09:19	CookedGryphon	where a candidate build is not a snapshot, but something I've prodded to say, there's a good number of features, this is a candidate for putting out to people to try
09:21	CookedGryphon	and actually, if I skip past version 0 and don't show the candidate-build number to the user, this works quite well
09:21	stain	CookedGryphon: yeah, that sounds good enough.. not quite semantic versioning, but close enough
09:39	clgv	TimMc: thx
09:40	clgv	TimMc: "lein release" switches to non snapshot, builds and deploys the project and then increments the last position in the version number?
09:48	CookedGryphon	that's right, lein release :minor does the same but increments the minor version number and resets the :patch nmumber
09:48	CookedGryphon	and :major does the obvious
10:09	m1dnight	is there an updated document about the low-level workings of refs in clojure? Atm I have this one, which is kind of old (5 years): http://java.ociweb.com/mark/stm/article.html
10:12	Bronsa	m1dnight: the STM hasn't changed in a long time
10:15	m1dnight	oh okay :) thanks
10:15	m1dnight	they mentioned in the article that big changes were underway, so I though I could ask
10:21	Bronsa	m1dnight: there have been only 2 non-cleanup commits since August 2009
10:24	Duke-_	is there any reason for the 'gres' local in condp source? it doesn't seem to be used https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L6071
10:27	AshtonKem	Mornin.
10:28	Bronsa	Duke-_: looks like a leftover
10:29	arrdem	agreed leftover.
10:32	AshtonKem	Ah, this web client won't do.
10:32	AshtonKem	Shame.
10:32	ToxicFrog	Why not?
10:33	AshtonKem	on an iPhone.
10:33	AshtonKem	So it loses its connection the moment I go to another app.
10:33	AshtonKem	I was hoping to get irc on here without signing up for another account on a random irc service for iOS
10:38	edw	Anyone happen to recall the Mac Homebrew IRC channel? Last time I went to #homebrew I learned a lot about beer nerds.
10:42	edw	It's #machomebrew, btw.
10:43	wink	lol
10:49	m1dnight	not to be rude, but why is there so little java doc in the java code for clojure?
10:49	m1dnight	like, summaries for a method or something
10:50	arrdem	officially most of the Clojure Java code is "implementation details" which will never be documented.
10:50	arrdem	I think IFn and ISeq are the only things that are officially not imp'l details.
10:50	Bronsa	there's also a public API since 1.5 or 1.6
10:50	clgv	CookedGryphon: ah good there is an option :D
10:51	Bronsa	clojure.java.api.Clojure
10:53	clgv	m1dnight: follow up question: why are there almost no comments in Clojure's implementation?
10:54	stuartsierra	http://clojure.github.io/clojure/javadoc/
10:54	arrdem	clgv: I'll bite :D
10:54	clgv	arrdem: please, don't bite me!
10:55	arrdem	I've got some self-documenting verilog over here if anyone believes that's a thing...
10:56	clgv	what is verilog?
10:57	arrdem	$google verilog
10:57	lazybot	[Verilog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verilog
10:58	clgv	muhaha
10:59	the-kenny	Anyone using core.match in core.async's go-blocks with ClojureScript? It seems broken here.
10:59	clgv	arrdem: my favorite example https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L4439
10:59	the-kenny	(match [:foo] [[:asdf _]] 42 :else 23) returns 42 if used outside of a go block.
10:59	the-kenny	If I wrap it in (go ...) it fails with "Uncaught Error: :foo is not ISeqable"
10:59	the-kenny	ehh returns 23 outside of a go-block.
11:00	Bronsa	the-kenny: I believe it's a known issue that go and match can't work together
11:00	Bronsa	clgv: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Compiler.java#L1011-L1014 this is my favourite
11:00	Bronsa	clgv: followed closely by https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Compiler.java#L7918
11:01	arrdem	(inc Bronsa)
11:01	lazybot	⇒ 62
11:01	clgv	Bronsa: woah! dummyThis gets actually used later on... X(
11:01	arrdem	Rich 2009. lol.
11:01	Bronsa	clgv: no it's in a dead code path actually
11:02	clgv	Bronsa: ok, github is not doing this analysis ;)
11:02	Bronsa	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Compiler.java#L7980-L7981 clgv
11:02	the-kenny	Bronsa: aw :( This is bad
11:02	Bronsa	>if (foo != null) foo == null ? dummy : else
11:02	Bronsa	dummy can never be reached there
11:02	the-kenny	Bronsa: do you know what's the reason? I never heard of that.
11:02	clgv	right
11:03	clgv	Bronsa: this is intentionally left there so that the clojure compiler doesnt get too fast on modern computers, eh? :P
11:04	Bronsa	clgv: I doubt that has any performance impact
11:04	Bronsa	the-kenny: no idea, you might want to ask that question to dnolen_ though
11:05	hhutch	the-kenny: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/MATCH-87
11:06	the-kenny	oh, such an old issue
11:06	clgv	Bronsa: you took that comment too serious ;)
11:06	hhutch	the-kenny: right, but this is why http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/MATCH-87?focusedCommentId=31926&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#comment-31926
11:08	the-kenny	heh, yeah :) Knowing this I'll just work around this
11:09	Bronsa	the-kenny: core.async might get ported to tools.analyzer.js relatively soon and get in par with the clojure impl, that might solve those issues
11:11	the-kenny	yay!
11:12	arrdem	idle curiosity, how many people here are using core.match?
11:14	hhutch	i have in the past
11:14	the-kenny	I really like it - it makes some kind of code much easier to understand
11:15	Bronsa	arrdem: http://crossclj.info/ns/org.clojure/core.match/0.2.2/project.clj.html mentions 41 direct usages
11:15	Bronsa	oh version usage got added, awesome
11:17	Bronsa	so 1.5.1 seems to be the most used clojure version ATM
11:23	puredanger	according to the clojure survey, it's overwhelmingly 1.6
11:24	arrdem	I would guess that there's a lot of bias there in GH projects that aren't actively maintained
11:24	puredanger	many libs depend on a version but when used downstream the app's version is higher
11:25	puredanger	91% of people claim to be using 1.6 for dev or prod in survey
11:25	Bronsa	cool
11:25	Bronsa	puredanger: will the raw data be available eventually?
11:25	puredanger	yes
11:26	puredanger	eventually being early next week
11:26	Bronsa	great
11:26	puredanger	I have a report with some of the things that are easy to report and will flesh that out a bit more and it includes a link to the raw data
11:27	puredanger	I'm going to leave it open at least for today
11:27	puredanger	going through the text responses will take a long time - I haven't even looked at them yet
11:28	puredanger	if anyone wants to help, would be happy for it
11:29	rurumate	since I got not answer from #cascalog, I'll ask this again here ; The cascading javadoc on CoGroup says that pipe order is important for join performance. Cascalog joins are implemented as CoGroups, so, is there a way to control the pipe order in the generated cascading flow?
11:33	clgv	O_o
11:33	puredanger	rurumate: I don't know the answer, but I do know from having done a lot with cascalog a few years ago that questions like this are what drove us to ultimately toss cascalog and write our own layer directly to cascading. unfortunately that code is lost in a dead proprietary code base now.
11:36	rurumate	puredanger: thanks, I've thought about that too. Cascading seems a bit harder to read than cascalog though
11:37	rurumate	oh well you wrote a layer on top of it, too bad it's lost
11:38	puredanger	definitely. cascalog is effectively in charge of "planning" how to build your flow, which is great to make it easier to use. but you give up a lot of control if you actually know what you want that to be
11:39	rurumate	also it sucks that cascalog uses so many defrecords internally, they should use hash maps instead
11:39	rurumate	I still like it, but the project seems slow moving now
11:39	llasram	rurumate: Have you checked out https://github.com/damballa/parkour/ ? </plug>
11:39	rurumate	not really no
11:40	rurumate	llasram: that's not on top of cascading
11:40	llasram	Nope
11:40	puredanger	or PigPen https://github.com/Netflix/PigPen
11:41	puredanger	also not on top of cascading
11:41	puredanger	but both of those have more current traction I think
11:41	llasram	Meh. I can see PigPen being of value for shops which already have significant investment in Pig, but compiling a subset of Clojure to Pig still just seems pretty nuts to me
11:42	puredanger	indeed but I think it's a pretty nice entry point
11:42	puredanger	Pig is imo really terrible seen through FP eyes
11:42	llasram	puredanger: "entry point" in what sense?
11:42	puredanger	from Clojure
11:42	CookedGryphon	Does anybody have any suggestions for how to write tests for core.async code which depends on timeouts?
11:43	puredanger	rurumate: might take a look at pig/cogroup for example
11:43	clgv	CookedGryphon: that again? ;)
11:44	alejandro3	CookedGryphon: parameterize the timeout value?
11:44	alejandro3	what exactly do you want to test?
11:46	llasram	puredanger: I... guess? I'm obviously biased, but I think being able to write Hadoop MapReduce jobs, just in Clojure a la Parkour is better
11:48	puredanger	I have used neither in anger and they both seem to be good projects to me. I could see Pig output being useful in some shops as you said.
11:49	justin_smith	CookedGryphon: I put together a test for a core.async worker pool thingy that established that verious invarients about the worker pool were consistent with the design. This isn't testing timeouts, but something of this structure may be helpful? https://www.refheap.com/91899
11:50	mdrogalis	Dang, rurumate is gone. I had the answe to his question. :(
11:50	mdrogalis	answer*
11:51	justin_smith	$mail mdrogalis about this cool feature
11:51	lazybot	Message saved.
11:51	CookedGryphon	a number of things are supposed to happen according to a timing sequence plus state machine and I want to test that the state machine transitions at the appropriate times and teh appropriate control events come out the other end
11:51	mdrogalis	justin_smith: What sorcery is this!
11:52	justin_smith	CookedGryphon: in my test, which I pasted above, I used atoms over sets, numbers, and vectors to instrument what was happening
11:52	CookedGryphon	so I sort of want to say "Stop the clock, put this event onto the channel, pretend 50ms have elapsed, put this event on, pretend 300ms have elapsed. What's in the output channel now?"
11:52	mdrogalis	Anyhow, it's a little involved. But the main point is that joins in Cascading can become really slow, and there's not much you can do about it.
11:52	mdrogalis	puredanger: I saw another shop write a layer ontop of Cascading, too. Common route, unfortunately.
11:53	justin_smith	CookedGryphon: in that case, maybe you want something you can modularize - either something that fakes timeouts but doesn't take that long, or short enough delays so the test running isn't painfully slow?
11:56	literary	Well,
11:56	literary	you see,
11:58	literary	Never mind, I figured it out.
11:58	justin_smith	LIES I never got to see
12:02	rwblue	I'm curious how Clojure-like notions of immutability could be implemented on a web-scale. If anyone has seen ideas along these lines, I'd like to hear them.
12:03	arrdem	Clojure: no really it's webscale. unlike mongodb.
12:03	rwblue	arrdem: I'm talking about identity and values as applied to URIs
12:04	SagiCZ1	how do i import other namespace? (ns this-namespace (:require [other-namespace :refer :all])) should work right?
12:04	stuartsierra	rwblue: I've heard it brought up in ReST discussions
12:04	nkoza	rwblue: check datomic
12:04	rwblue	stuartsierra nkoza thanks
12:05	arrdem	rwblue: interesting. I've seen a bunch of different ideas (git/gittorent/DHTs) but very few actual products (gnunet & bittorent being the exceptions, maybe urbit)
12:06	stuartsierra	rwblue: I think this also came up in Joe Armstrong's talk at Strange Loop 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKXe3HUG2l4
12:06	SagiCZ1	any help?
12:06	arrdem	SagiCZ1: yeah that'll work
12:06	rwblue	some discussion here too: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5622209
12:07	SagiCZ1	arrdem: and will it load namespaces that are required in other-namespace as well<
12:07	SagiCZ1	?
12:07	arrdem	SagiCZ1: yes. (ns) is not declarative, it's an imperative statement that forces loading just like (load).
12:07	SagiCZ1	arrdem: thanks
12:08	technomancy	but but ... it looks declarative =D
12:08	arrdem	technomancy: quiet you.
12:08	arrdem	technomancy: that ns is not declarative is one of my great bugbears following the Oxcart project
12:08	stuartsierra	It is in ClojureScript :P
12:09	arrdem	stuartsierra: right but ClojureScript isn't Clojure :P
12:09	SagiCZ1	thats wierd.. i can use functions from other-namespace but no functions from namespaces required by that other-namespace
12:09	SagiCZ1	unabel to resolve symbol
12:09	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: you need to qualify them with their namespace
12:09	arrdem	SagiCZ1: no that's the expected behavior. dependencies are transitive, but aliases are not.
12:09	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: there is no such thing as recursive use, and even use is terrible
12:10	SagiCZ1	wait so.. they are "loaded" but not qualified?
12:10	stuartsierra	SagiCZ1: They are "loaded" but not referred into your current namespace.
12:10	SagiCZ1	i see.. that actually makes perfect sense
12:10	stuartsierra	`:refer :all` only refers symbols defined in the namespace you `require`d
12:11	SagiCZ1	and what happens when you "set a repl to a namespace" ?
12:12	stuartsierra	SagiCZ1: As with `in-ns`, that just makes a particular namespace the "current namespace" for that REPL session.
12:12	stuartsierra	You can use any symbols defined or referred into the current namespace without qualification.
12:12	SagiCZ1	and by qualification you mean?
12:13	stuartsierra	SagiCZ1: namespace-qualification, like `clojure.string/replace`
12:13	SagiCZ1	i see
12:13	SagiCZ1	and i can use anything by using its fully qualified name?
12:13	arrdem	anything loaded, yes
12:13	stuartsierra	SagiCZ1: Yes, IF it has already been loaded.
12:14	justin_smith	it isn't good to use transitive dependencies directly - if you use functions from a namespace you should require it explicitly
12:14	SagiCZ1	stuartsierra: okay
12:14	SagiCZ1	justin_smith: yes i understand.. it makes sense
12:16	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: where this stuff becomes important is if you ever edit your code - what if you move a function to a new namespace? What if someone changes how the other namespace is implemented and they don't require the transitive dependency that they used to? too many weird ways for things to break
12:18	SagiCZ1	yeah taht would be a mess
12:21	SagiCZ1	have you ever been dissapointed by some part of clojure?
12:21	stuartsierra	Well that's a loaded question.
12:21	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: and using (require '[clojure.string :as string]) vs. (require '[clojure.string :refer :all]) means that if you refactor and split up a namespace or move a function, things are much easier
12:22	SagiCZ1	stuartsierra: i was just wondering.. from my newbie point of view.. it all just seems too good to be true
12:23	SagiCZ1	justin_smith: i usually avoid using :refer :all for this reason
12:23	mdrogalis	SagiCZ1: Total illusion. It's just stuartsierra in here. Everyone else is a Clojure IRC bot. :)
12:23	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: start up time, RAM usage - but for my needs those concerns are minor
12:23	justin_smith	(long running process on its own server - works great)
12:23	AeroNotix	I would write more Clojure if the start-up time didn't suck.
12:23	SagiCZ1	even java itself has a long start up time
12:24	stompyj	SagiCZ1: the only thing that frustrates me about clojure is it’s growth/acceptance curve
12:24	AeroNotix	I pretty much relinquished Clojure to server-side stuff.
12:24	SagiCZ1	stompyj: elaborate?
12:24	Bronsa	I don't find this claim true. my repl starts up in .5 seconds
12:24	AeroNotix	(which I absolutely love)
12:24	AeroNotix	Bronsa: you mean a crappy repl?
12:24	AeroNotix	who cares
12:24	AeroNotix	Bronsa: try doing one which loads an application's worth of code
12:24	Bronsa	AeroNotix: that's not "clojure's startup time" then
12:25	AeroNotix	Bronsa: same difference to people using Clojure for anything other than "a bare repl"
12:25	AeroNotix	don't be so obtuse.
12:25	SagiCZ1	AeroNotix: isnt that something that is bound to improve somewhat in the future?
12:25	AeroNotix	SagiCZ1: of course
12:25	arrdem	I get 6.7s for a "bare" Clojure instance of `lein repl`.
12:25	AeroNotix	and it has been getting better.
12:25	AeroNotix	arrdem: lein repl isn't a bare repl, to be fair.
12:25	stompyj	SagiCZ1: The only worry I have is that Scala and Go will outpace it, and it will have a hard time getting wide enough adoption, as that affects ability to hire, cost of devs, ability to sell into companies, etc
12:25	Bronsa	arrdem: lein repl does a lot
12:25	arrdem	Bronsa: sure, but it's also the common case.
12:25	MrJones98	so i’m completely stumped t this point… using clojure+clojurescript in a web app and came across this issue in cljsbuild https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild/issues/303
12:25	Bronsa	arrdem: sure but lein isn't clojure
12:25	arrdem	Bronsa: I literally never use java -jar clojure.jar clojure.main, so it's disingenuous to say it's the metric here.
12:25	MrJones98	basically cljs compiler results in stack overflows
12:26	Bronsa	AeroNotix: look, startup time and compilation time are two completely differnt issues
12:26	SagiCZ1	stompyj: i understand.. but the fact that clojure and java understand each other well you can basically use javas popularity
12:26	SagiCZ1	stompyj: and i thought that Go is as obscure as clojure is
12:26	AeroNotix	Bronsa: they're inextricably linked
12:26	MrJones98	i increased my stack to 1g just to make it obscenely large… and now i get a FileNotFoundException during compilation with a too many files open
12:27	dnolen_	MrJones98: that's not a cljsbuild issue - are you using core.async w/ core.match?
12:27	technomancy	Bronsa: load time is still poor with AOT
12:27	MrJones98	i’m usring core.async a lot
12:27	MrJones98	i’m not using core.match mysself
12:27	MrJones98	but don’t know if some other library might be
12:27	MrJones98	let me check my deps
12:27	technomancy	Bronsa: so conflating it with compilation time is also disingenuous
12:27	AeroNotix	SagiCZ1: Go at least as much easier to learn.
12:27	dnolen_	MrJones98: no it only matters if you use a core.match macro in a go block
12:27	AeroNotix	and has very familiar syntax to what typical devs know
12:28	dnolen_	MrJones98: however if you're are mixing very complex macros in a go block you can also run afoul of this problem
12:28	stompyj	SagiCZ1: Go adoption seems to be outpacing Clojure here in NYC, I think they’re both growing well, but I think Go’s story is simpler and the value prop is clearer, if for no other reason that its more like hte other language you were probably using
12:28	literary	rwblue: the spirit of Clojure was embodied in Datomic, which hates garbage collectors, and the enmity has proven mutual
12:28	MrJones98	dnolen_: so i’m not using core.match in a go block
12:28	SagiCZ1	AeroNotix: i agree that learning clojure has been a little more daunting than i expected..
12:28	MrJones98	cljx is the only reason core.match is in my deps
12:28	AeroNotix	stompyj: yes, this.
12:28	literary	rwblue: so, immutability is, well, slow as a turtle driving a race car with no engine
12:29	MrJones98	dnolen_: most things were working fine until i tried to add some external libs to my preamble
12:29	MrJones98	just some external js stuff
12:29	dnolen_	MrJones98: gist your stacktrace somewhere
12:29	dnolen_	MrJones98: include CLJS compiler info please
12:29	dmatysiak	I have a macro that looks like this: (defmacro eval-expr [vars vals expr] `(let [~vals ~vars] ~expr)). The problem is that I won't be passing literal expressions in, only bound symbols, i.e., while I can do (eval-expr [a b] [1 2] (+a b)), I can't do (eval-expr x y z) where x, y and x are bound to the respective expressions. Any suggestions on how to make something like this work?
12:30	dnolen_	MrJones98: i.e. version etc
12:30	Bronsa	technomancy: I'd be surprised if compilation time was dominated by load time
12:30	stompyj	SagiCZ1: The best thing about clojure imo, is the community, and the projects the community seems to tackle. Without attacking other communities, Clojurists seem to have a great ability to focus on solving problems that make complex problems simpler
12:30	literary	I am just waiting for `lein run` to start. It takes almost a minute these days.
12:30	literary	That's why I'm in here wasting time.
12:31	stompyj	literary: if lein run takes a minute, that feels like a computer issue, more then a lein run issue
12:31	MrJones98	dnolen_: capturing the stack trace now and was using cljs 0.0-2227 and upped it to 0.0-2371 and still having the issue
12:31	SagiCZ1	stompyj: Well I was never learning clojure for the sake of getting a job.. I think that only company using Clojure in my country would by a company I founded myself. However I understand that language popularity is important for the healthiness of its community
12:31	rwblue	literary: I'm not really following. I was asking about if/how Clojure's notion of identity and state has been applied to URIs. I've found a few leads so far
12:31	literary	stompyj: 32gb of RAM, 3.2 GHz Quad Core Intel Xeon, SSD... so I really doubt that
12:32	Bronsa	technomancy: not to say load time doesn't play a role in compilation time, but as CLJ-1529 showed, there are significant % improvements in compile time that are completely unrelated to code loading
12:32	literary	stompyj: More likely, it's that I'm loading up both Clojure and JRuby in the same Clojure web app.
12:32	stompyj	literary: wow. agreed. that’s crazy tho, lein run usually works in sub 5 seconds, even on my mba
12:32	stompyj	literary: it might be jruby, the startup time on that when I was using it was brutal
12:33	stompyj	that was about 2 years ago tho, so I assume it’s much better now
12:33	MrJones98	dnolen_: https://gist.github.com/andrew-nguyen/b718036ab06b469a2b6a
12:33	literary	stompyj: Even without JRuby, it takes a good 15 seconds to start the web server.
12:33	literary	rwblue: I only saw your first question, so...
12:33	MrJones98	dnolen_: i can copy more of it if you want
12:33	stompyj	literary: wow
12:33	arrdem	literary: cold start? that's not entirely crazy..
12:33	literary	`lein run`
12:34	literary	It's surprising given how fricken fast this computer is in every way.
12:34	literary	And disappointing.
12:34	arrdem	I get 3.78s to go from a cold JVM to a running webserver
12:34	stompyj	SagiCZ1: yeah, I mean, I’m not even overly worried about this, but since you asked, it is the one thing I think about, when I think about trying to build a end-to-end clojure/clojurescript project
12:34	dnolen_	MrJones98: no, that's the open files problem - not sure why you have "target" in your list of sources
12:34	literary	I mean, it makes me disappointed in the human race's inability to make fast software given all the time we've had.
12:34	stompyj	everything else has been pretty nice
12:34	MrJones98	dnolen_: i have target only cause that’s where i stick my cljx generated files
12:35	literary	Oh look, it started. Brb, seeing if my middleware isn't broken yet.
12:35	SagiCZ1	stompyj: yeah i see.. thanks for answering the question :)
12:35	MrJones98	dnolen_: should i be sticking that somewhere else?
12:35	literary	(I'd just reload it from within the app, but that's broken too, because I'm using Clojure libs.)
12:36	justin_smith	literary: the more powerful computers get, the lazier developers can be about performance. developers are more expensive than hardware, so they get away with it. See also: no matter how powerful batteries get for mobile, the latest phone will need daily charging - the limit is the user's tolerance for charging, and with more power, you get lazier / more ambitious power hungry apps.
12:37	literary	So we're lazy and spoiled and ignorant.
12:37	literary	Makes sense.
12:37	dnolen_	MrJones98: hmm I don't know I don't use cljx
12:37	technomancy	only ignorant if you aren't aware of the tradeoffs
12:37	literary	I should probably go. Clojure is pissing me off too much.
12:37	arrdem	justin_smith: have you seen Alan Kay talk about buying your way into the future for dev productivity?
12:37	justin_smith	(I use a dumb phone that holds a charge for a few days, a full week if I am feeling antisocial)
12:37	MrJones98	dnolen_: i can’t think of a reason why what i have wouldn’t work though
12:37	justin_smith	arrdem: rings a bell, not sure
12:37	MrJones98	that dir just contains cljs files
12:37	MrJones98	liike any other src dir
12:38	literary	technomancy: I meant ignorant in that we can't see how much our own laziness is hurting us as developers, by writing crappy software on top of crappy software on top of cr.
12:38	dnolen_	MrJones98: there's not really enough info here for me to go on - sorry - we've haven too many open file issues in the past - but we've received patches for that.
12:38	MrJones98	dnolen_: hmm… might’ve had a bad require in one of my source files
12:38	MrJones98	but normally, that results in a compiler warning
12:38	arrdem	justin_smith: idea is that you overpay for hardware by a factor of ~100x or more to get hardware equivalent to what will be "consumer" in 10 years so that you can be as lazy now as you will be in 10 years and still deliver osum
12:39	dnolen_	MrJones98: always possible to miss a case
12:39	justin_smith	arrdem: "the future doesn't have to be incremental" maybe?
12:39	arrdem	justin_smith: I think he mentions it there too.
12:40	arrdem	justin_smith: he's come back to that idea a couple times that I've seen
12:40	justin_smith	arrdem: google for buying your way into productivity gives me no direct hits
12:41	MrJones98	dnolen_: any idea why a require of [secretary.core :as secretary :include-macros true :refer [defroute]] was working in 2227 and now causes a warning in 2371 of “secretary.core/defroute does not exist….” ?
12:41	MrJones98	also, removed the other bad require and it compiled
12:42	dnolen_	MrJones98: because the compiler improved
12:42	dnolen_	MrJones98: defroute is a macro so you need to use :refer-macros
12:42	arrdem	justin_smith: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=gTAghAJcO1o#t=2176
12:43	literary	Just typed this whole sentence and joined #clojure and my server still hasn't started yet.
12:43	justin_smith	arrdem: that's the exact title I asked you about
12:43	literary	Er, also started my entire IRC client.
12:43	arrdem	justin_smith: I know, that's the timestamp where he starts talking about it
12:43	literary	Oh there it goes.
12:43	MrJones98	dnolen_: i knew it’d be something simple - thanks!
12:43	justin_smith	arrdem: ahh, OK
12:43	MrJones98	btw, we’re making extensive use of om
12:45	arrdem	justin_smith: 39:30
12:45	arrdem	"because this machine was so fast we didn't have to optimize, we could go out, drink a couple pitchers of beer and play all afternoon"
12:46	MrJones98	dnolen_: it’s now compiling but takes ~150-180 seconds… does that pass the sniff test?
12:46	dnolen_	MrJones98: ok good
12:46	dnolen_	MrJones98: are you using advanced compilation?
12:47	MrJones98	dnolen_: whitespace only for now in my dev profile
12:47	dnolen_	MrJones98: also all bets are off if you are using cljx I have no idea what that things does or what kind of perf hit you are taking by using it
12:47	dnolen_	also sourcemaps on any setting other :none will kill you due to RAM requirements
12:47	MrJones98	cljx runs before cljsbuild
12:47	the-kenny	dnolen_: cljx + :optimization :none is fine.
12:47	dnolen_	MrJones98: in general using anything other :none and :advanced is a waste of time IMO
12:47	MrJones98	so it’s just a basic cljs file with some defs in it
12:47	the-kenny	It takes about twice as long, but that's still <2s
12:47	MrJones98	some constants i share between the front/backend
12:48	MrJones98	dnolen_: oh - i thought whitespace/simple/advanced were the only options
12:48	MrJones98	let me drop to none
12:48	clojurebot	Huh?
12:49	dnolen_	MrJones98: anyways sounds like something else may be wrong w/ your setup, I've seen CLJS projects with 40K LOC under advanced compilation take ~50secs on my machine
12:49	MrJones98	dnolen_: figured…. just needed some ballpark to indicate if something is wrong
12:49	MrJones98	thanks
12:49	dnolen_	that's processing around near 200KLOC of generated JS in ~50secs on an iMac
12:50	dnolen_	if you can't do that then something is wrong w/ your config
12:50	justin_smith	arrdem: I am watching from the beginning, the thing about the funding disappearing in the '80s is something I have heard about multiple places - just imagine the world we could live in if DARPA hadn't changed
12:51	justin_smith	(well DARPA and the corparate stuff from xerox / bell etc.)
12:52	arrdem	justin_smith: eh. we're where we are today because of old DARPA investments that are finally paying off. I think it's disingenuous to lament the changes in funding because most of those projects overpromised and didn't/couldn't deliver. the AI stuff being the classic example of this.
12:52	MrJones98	dnolen_: dropping it to none from whitespace now takes 13 seconds the first time and 0.3 seconds after that
12:52	MrJones98	haven’t tried with advanced optimization yet
12:52	dnolen_	MrJones98: sounds about right
12:53	justin_smith	arrdem: the funding rules changed and they stopped funding pure research outright. A lot of good stuff comes from pure research.
12:53	arrdem	justin_smith: #clojure-offtopic, dnolen_ is working :P
13:13	ag0rex	hello, i was looking through ibdknox/gambit and i saw this:
13:13	ag0rex	(defmacro ? [obj k]
13:13	ag0rex	`(aget ~obj ~k))
13:13	technomancy	that doesn't look like scheme
13:13	ag0rex	why would you create a macro in this case instead of creating a function called ? that does the same thing?
13:15	ag0rex	right.. i am talking about this: https://github.com/ibdknox/gambit :)
13:15	arrdem	ag0rex: there is no good reason for ? to be a macro here. It's just sugar that does no transformation and could trivially be a function.
13:15	technomancy	ag0rex: weird. there is already a lisp implementation called gambit.
13:15	Bronsa	arrdem: not sure about that, actually
13:15	Bronsa	ag0rex: arrdem that might have to do with inlining and avoiding run time reflection
13:16	dnolen_	ag0rex: looks like an inlining macro
13:17	dnolen_	ag0rex: stuff like that is less relevant in modern JS engines - but there are less than efficient JS engines to contend with still
13:17	Bronsa	ah, clojurescript
13:17	Bronsa	well, just drop the run time reflection bit then
13:19	ag0rex	dnolen_: so one would do this to avoid a another call to a different function?
13:19	dnolen_	ag0rex: yes inlining
13:19	dnolen_	ag0rex: but there's really no need to do this kind of thing unless your writing inner loops
13:22	literary	Hi! Is it a stupid idea to have a background loop that calls (System/gc) every few hours in my web app?
13:23	arrdem	probably.. the JVM will likely GC more frequently than that anyway..
13:23	literary	Oh!
13:23	puredanger	literary: don't do that
13:23	literary	Thanks!
13:23	Gurkenmaster	strange
13:23	Gurkenmaster	wrong channel
13:23	hiredman	puredanger means "yes, that is stupid"
13:24	literary	Well now!
13:24	puredanger	I thought my way was nicer :)
13:24	hiredman	sure, but literary asked if it was stupid
13:24	literary	Indeed!
13:25	puredanger	I don't think it's a stupid question if you lack JVM context
13:25	literary	I didn't ask if it was a stupid question!
13:26	verma	is there a lein plugin which serves my project directory over http?
13:26	puredanger	I don't think it's a stupid idea, just unnecessary :)
13:26	verma	like just static
13:26	literary	My gratitude! I am indebted to your service!
13:26	verma	so that I can serve the output of my cljsbuild stuff
13:26	seancorfield	literary: I've known systems on top of the JVM that used to call GC periodically to stay stable - on earlier versions of Java - but I don't know many systems that feel the need to do it now
13:27	seancorfield	esp. with the G1 collector (if that works for your app)
13:27	verma	lein pdo repl, cljsbuild auto, server
13:27	literary	My boss is adamant that we use Datomic, so the GC dies every so often!
13:27	literary	It spins out of control!
13:27	seancorfield	which collector are you using? which JVM version?
13:28	hiredman	literary: the gc dies?
13:28	literary	I will say this much: I no longer believe experimenting with Datomic to be a worthwhile endeavor!
13:28	literary	I'm using the latest of both!
13:28	noonian	you had to manually call the gc all the time with the initial versions of android heh, especially when doing anything with the camera or big files
13:28	hiredman	literary: what do you mean the gc dies?
13:28	seancorfield	no, which garbage collector strategy are you using?
13:28	literary	Garbage collection is the past, Rust's way is the future, whatever it is!
13:29	hiredman	literary: what do you mean the gc dies?
13:29	literary	I don't know!
13:29	technomancy	verma: python -m SimpleHTTPServer 3001
13:29	literary	The app just suddenly stops responding to everything!
13:29	hiredman	literary: and why do you think that is a gc issue?
13:29	seancorfield	you specify which GC strategy as part of the JVM options at startup
13:29	literary	Because I've checked everything else!
13:29	literary	I don't specify it!
13:29	hiredman	literary: are you monitoring the gc at all?
13:30	seancorfield	that's your problem then :)
13:30	literary	What does that mean?
13:30	literary	I don't know how to monitor it!
13:30	hiredman	literary: use jstat
13:30	hiredman	or some kind of profiler
13:30	verma	technomancy, I don't want to run separate terminal sessions :( .. I already have node.js' http-server
13:30	seancorfield	maybe you should hire a consultant who understands the JVM?
13:30	literary	The way my boss set up our website is very bare-bones and configuration-less!
13:30	verma	technomancy, may be this? https://github.com/tailrecursion/lein-simpleton
13:30	hiredman	look at how many full gc pauses there
13:30	technomancy	verma: yeah, there's undoubtedly something
13:30	hiredman	check the usage of each of the spaces
13:30	technomancy	this is like the one thing I actually use python for
13:31	clojurebot	Alles klar
13:31	literary	My gratitude! I am indebted to your service!
13:31	technomancy	clojurebot: forget this \|is\| like the one thing I actually use python for
13:31	clojurebot	I forgot that this is like the one thing I actually use python for
13:31	technomancy	._.
13:31	verma	technomancy, lol
13:31	verma	technomancy, then you should just use http-server from npm, and let python go :)
13:32	hiredman	literary: it doesn't sound like you've done a very thorough job of figuring out what the issue is, so I would not be so quick to assume a gc issue
13:32	technomancy	verma: lol no
13:32	literary	I don't even know how to figure out what it is!
14:25	SagiCZ1	No matching ctor found??? cant we just spelled out "constructor" so people dont waste time googling what that obscure word means? :)
14:26	technomancy	c9r
14:26	llasram	Oh man, best convention ever
14:26	SagiCZ1	i hate i18n too
14:28	nullptr	t9y: nice
14:32	SagiCZ1	,(float (/ 5 7))
14:32	clojurebot	0.71428573
14:32	SagiCZ1	shorter way to do this?
14:33	nullptr	interesting core.async question -> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/26431207/why-is-the-threadpool-for-core-async-in-clojure-created-with-fixed-thread-pool-o
14:35	llasram	SagiCZ1: ##(/ (double 5) (double 7))
14:35	lazybot	⇒ 0.7142857142857143
14:35	llasram	That doesn't initially create a Ratio object
14:35	justin_smith	,(/ 5 (double 7))
14:35	clojurebot	0.7142857142857143
14:35	justin_smith	does that?
14:36	llasram	I believe that also works
14:36	justin_smith	(/ 5 7 1.0)
14:36	justin_smith	,(/ 5 7 1.0)
14:36	clojurebot	0.7142857142857143
14:36	justin_smith	definitely creates a ratio, but it's "shorter"
14:36	justin_smith	lol
14:36	SagiCZ1	cool, thanks
14:37	justin_smith	(defn to-days [ms] (/ ms 1000 60 60 24))
14:39	justin_smith	(defn to-ms [days] (* days 1000 60 60 24))
14:42	johnwalker	nullptr: it's a duplicate, unfortunately
14:51	TimMc	llasram: I t3k i2s a f2e c8n.
15:08	llasram	TimMc: Early and recent-extra-minimal Forth systems frequently use/d only 4 bytes for "word" names -- first 3 bytes + a 1-byte length
15:09	llasram	(or well, 1-byte length + first 3 bytes)
15:09	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
15:10	llasram	I 5thi 3it' 1a 6pre 10rea 10con
15:10	justin_smith	lol
15:10	justin_smith	l3l
15:10	sveri	Hi, I have a piece of code I don't understand. I am using enlive as a templating engine and in my library I always returned this: (ring.util.response/response (apply str template)) where template is the enlive code, now I played around and tried to embed my library into a current luminus created webapp, all of a sudden the templates are downloaded now, because they have the wrong content type, but when I change my render function to t
15:12	justin_smith	sveri: (apply str template) should be redundant with ring
15:13	justin_smith	sveri: also, that message was too long, it got cut off at "I changed my render function to t"
15:13	sveri	justin_smith: ok
15:15	bbloom	i really wish i could instantiate java classes w/ namespace aliases
15:15	bbloom	got a class called "Client" in a long ass namespace
15:16	bbloom	would be so nice if it could (foo/Client. blah blah) instead of (com.omg.this.is.a.long.name.Client. blah blah) or just the ambiguous (Client. blah blah)
15:18	dnolen_	http://arcadia-unity.tumblr.com/post/100257212548/arcadia-0-1a-launched
15:20	bbloom	dnolen_: cool, get timsg and ra-whatever-his-irc-handle in here :-)
15:21	cfleming	dnolen_: That looks really great
15:21	danneu	bbloom: it wouldn't be clojure anymore if you weren't constantly reminded that Java is right there behind the scenes
15:22	bbloom	danneu: meanwhile, that unity stuff is on the clr ^^ :-)
15:22	bbloom	or mono, really
15:22	cfleming	dnolen_: Maybe that'll help clojure-clr get some love, it seems to be the great project that no-one uses.
15:22	dnolen_	being able to target XBox, iOS, etc with ClojureCLR is pretty cool
15:22	dnolen_	cfleming: yep people care about platforms - this open up some new platforms
15:22	cfleming	Yeah, I guess ClojureCLR works with the Xamarin stuff?
15:22	dnolen_	cfleming: yes
15:48	justin_smith	the thing that makes me sad about arcadia is unity won't run on Linux :(
15:48	justin_smith	which is ironic, given that it is based on mono
15:54	AimHere	Well Unity exports to Linux; is the editor mono-based too?
15:55	justin_smith	AimHere: they provide no dev env for linux, and no web player
15:55	AimHere	Right, dev env or editor is what I'm talking about
15:55	justin_smith	yeah, not available for linux at all
15:56	justin_smith	http://feedback.unity3d.com/suggestions/platforms-unity-editor-for-linu
15:56	AimHere	Yeah, but is it built on Mono or something else? Given that it's a full-on game engine, I suspect there's big chunks of native code that needs porting
15:56	justin_smith	tustex is spamming
15:56	AimHere	Also tutus
15:57	justin_smith	AimHere: yeah, most likely, but yeah, they built it on mono
15:57	justin_smith	well, a forked mono
15:57	justin_smith	so they could have more control than they get with the ms. impl of clr
15:58	AimHere	The devs did say that it was purely a business decision; that they didn't think there'd be enough Linux devs willing to shell out the £1500 to use the Pro version
15:59	AimHere	Though I'd have thought that would be a good use of something like Kickstarter. Get the money pledged in advance.
16:16	ayarna	hi
16:17	stompyj	hello
16:22	bbloom	let's say i've got a lein plugin, what's the easiest way to exclude the version of a dependency it includes? i want to include my own version of it, but `lein deps :tree` shows my dependency seems to be overridden by the plugin
16:23	technomancy	bbloom: the plugin should attach ^:displace metadata to the dependency vector
16:24	bbloom	technomancy: shouldn't project dependencies always override plugin dependencies?
16:24	technomancy	bbloom: there's no such thing as plugin dependencies
16:25	technomancy	I mean, it's not a first-class concept, just a thing that you can do well or badly
16:25	bbloom	technomancy: https://github.com/greglook/whidbey/blob/master/src/whidbey/plugin.clj
16:25	bbloom	what's done badly about that? i can fix it
16:25	bbloom	i want to supply my own version of puget
16:25	mdrogalis	What a champ.
16:25	technomancy	bbloom: try attaching ^:replace metadata to your own maybe
16:26	technomancy	bbloom: why is this a plugin though?
16:26	bbloom	technomancy: i have no idea, i still don't understand lein, no matter how much i try to
16:26	technomancy	oh, because nrepl middleware can't be configured from within project space?
16:26	bbloom	i guess so, this thing actually monkey patches nrepl
16:27	technomancy	that's a shame; there really ought to be a way to make it manifest-driven
16:27	technomancy	project.clj seems like the wrong place for it
16:27	bbloom	not sure what you mean by that
16:27	technomancy	well, embedding an nrepl in your project is a thing
16:27	bbloom	adding ^:replace to my dep seems to fix it
16:27	technomancy	so having the middleware depend on constructs that aren't present in production seems like a problem
16:29	technomancy	bbloom: cool
16:30	technomancy	bbloom: IMO plugins adding dependencies is so easy to do wrong that it's rarely worth the trouble
16:30	bbloom	technomancy: that's been my impression of most of my interactions with lein
16:30	technomancy	bbloom: but if you're in a bug-reporting mood, maybe recommend adding ^:displace in the plugin so others don't have this same problem
16:31	technomancy	bbloom: people get carried away with magic =(
16:31	technomancy	"just add this one line and it does everything[1] for you"
16:31	technomancy	[1] everything I think you should need
16:32	technomancy	the way cljsbuild uses project middleware has made me regret adding that feature to lein
16:32	bbloom	in general, i distrust plugins of any kind
16:33	technomancy	that's a healthy default
16:33	technomancy	at least, plugins that execute project code
16:33	bbloom	once you have a plugin that executes code, you're not in the operating system business
16:33	bbloom	now*
16:33	bbloom	"not" totally fails to make my point :-P
16:34	technomancy	most eval-in-project plugins should really just be -main namespaces that run entirely in project-land
16:34	mrb_bk	Reminder for conj attendees http://www.meetup.com/Papers-We-Love-DC/events/212419432/
16:35	AeroNotix	REMINDER for people, we need moar EU stuff
16:35	bbloom	technomancy: it's totally a human problem. you made a plugin system... then you documented it! that's where you went wrong :-)
16:35	technomancy	bbloom: even the ones that ship with lein itself that run code like repl and test are really just there to work around problems in the contribution process for upstream
16:35	technomancy	haha
16:36	hiredman	tbd? who does he think he is, rich?
16:36	technomancy	there's very little reason repl should be anything other than an alias for `lein run -m org.clojure.tools.nrepl`
16:36	bbloom	technomancy: agreed, and then if you wanted a "plugin" you'd just make a custom main and parameterize it
16:36	technomancy	same with lein test
16:37	technomancy	bbloom: IIRC the first thing in the plugin docs right no is a paragraph that tries to convince you not to write a plugin
16:37	technomancy	but it's too late
16:37	bbloom	technomancy: can you move the current plugin system in to a custom main and then deprecate the plugin system?
16:38	bbloom	seems like a good idea to me :-)
16:38	technomancy	bbloom: hah; that would work if all plugins called eval-in-project
16:39	justin_smith	bbloom: technomancy: I wonder if there isn't a larger underlying issue, design wise, that gives rise to both lein plugin/middleware issues and instability in various emacs / clojure integration... pitfalls of AOP or something?
16:40	technomancy	justin_smith: I think it's a matter of failing to decompose first before packaging up good defaults
16:40	technomancy	"the framework problem"
16:40	bbloom	justin_smith: there's at least two orthogonal problems: #1 is the AOP side of it, but #2 is that whenever you have dynamic code loading, you've got a shadow world of dependency management, process/job control, evaluation ordering, etc
16:41	justin_smith	interesting
16:41	bbloom	yeah, i guess "the framework problems" comes in these two forms: the static decomposition of parts and their dynamic behavior
16:41	technomancy	so on the bright side, you can now read profiles out of plugins
16:42	technomancy	which should allow anything that's currently done as middleware to be redone in a declarative way that's easy to override
16:42	technomancy	I'm sure whidbey could be rearranged to do that
16:43	technomancy	rather than having a profile that's embedded in the code as a def, it's looked up in the project map, so you can override it easily
16:43	technomancy	I don't know enough about cljsbuild to speak authoritatively, but my gut tells me the "magic" should be able to be replaced there too
16:46	bbloom	i don't think lein succeeds in being "declarative" at least not in a positive way
16:46	bbloom	instead, it's config file magic
16:47	bbloom	as for cljs build, i've had dramatically more success w/ manual jetty/closure/etc code
16:48	bbloom	basically write build and clean functions, parameterize them as i need, then a util function or two like rebuild, and then wrap that up in a namespace with an explicit jetty server for my static assets, and wire in a weseal socket to that server
16:48	bbloom	whole thing is like 20 lines of code
16:48	bbloom	and 100X more flexible and easier to work w/ than lein
16:48	bbloom	much faster too
16:48	bbloom	you get per file re-eval in repl, rather than auto-build nonsense
16:49	nullptr	bbloom: do you have that packaged somewhere?
16:49	bbloom	i'll post a gist
16:50	justin_smith	bbloom: "100X more flexible and easier to work w/ than lein" are you using something else for dep management?
16:50	bbloom	lein-cljsbuild, i mean
16:50	dnolen_	bbloom: pfaw - who evals cljs files anymore? let figwheel sort it out
16:51	bbloom	dnolen_: does figwheel do auto eval on save? i hate that.
16:51	dnolen_	bbloom: it does, it's great!
16:52	bbloom	dnolen_: i hate that.
16:52	bbloom	dnolen_: i don't want to eval on save. i want to eval in a very particular order sometimes
16:52	bbloom	nullptr: https://gist.github.com/brandonbloom/60a3dc87969965573271
16:52	bbloom	that's hacked up from anothe rproject
16:52	dnolen_	bbloom: well there you go - people problems not technology ones
16:52	bbloom	i deleted a bunch of shit that was project specific
16:53	nullptr	bbloom: thanks, i get the idea -- simpler than expected
16:54	bbloom	nullptr: dramatically simpler than a lein plugin!
16:54	nullptr	"thanks, cljs.closure!"
16:54	dnolen_	bbloom: yeah that file is gross
16:54	mlb-	is there a way I can create functions without using defmacro, or (eval `(defn ...)) ?
16:54	dnolen_	bbloom: I'd take lein over that stuff anyday
16:54	mlb-	rather, can I create functions without using a macro, but instead a function without using eval?
16:55	dnolen_	bbloom: and I've suffered bad lein days too
16:55	technomancy	bbloom: I luckily have avoided cljsbuild, but from what I've heard the situation there is pretty dire
16:55	amalloy	mlb-: that's kinda a weird question. (fn [x] (inc x)) is a function, and you don't need defn to make it. do you have a more overarching goal?
16:55	technomancy	which ... I mean it's been abandoned for how many years now?
16:55	bbloom	dnolen_: i get that you like auto-compile, but are there any other advantages that lein-cljs provide you?
16:55	technomancy	twice?
16:56	mlb-	amalloy: I'm trying to see if I'm needlessly using macros. I've a set of macros to provide covers to JavaScript implementations in a JVM ScriptEngine
16:56	bbloom	dnolen_: b/c the cost is that every time i try to set it up, i spend a ton of time and the result is that i get a workflow i don't like
16:57	dnolen_	bbloom: not putting that crap in a source file - `lein with-profile (dev\|prod) cljsbuild (auto\|once)` works for me
16:57	bbloom	dnolen_: what's wrong with having it in a source file?
16:57	dnolen_	bbloom: because I can't configure it without changing the source file
16:58	bbloom	dnolen_: isn't changing source file what you do all day long when working anyway?
16:58	dnolen_	bbloom: anyways look at chestnut - it's a sensible config and a sane use of profiles and lein-environ
16:58	bbloom	my actual version of that file has a bunch of crap in a (comment ...) block
16:58	technomancy	inc on preferring changing source to changing project.clj-level stuff
16:58	bbloom	dnolen_: if it's built around auto-recompile, i'm not interested
16:58	amalloy	mlb-: have a look at ##(doc intern). but that doesn't sound like a terrible use of macros
16:58	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! intern is bad!
16:58	mlb-	amalloy: the meat of it is something like: `(defn ~fn-name [&~'args] (apply js/js-new ~engine ~classname ~'args))
16:58	technomancy	lol
16:58	technomancy	shame on you amalloy, trying to hack lazybot
16:58	dnolen_	bbloom: which fine, but this is not what most people want
16:59	mlb-	amalloy: ah, okay. Just getting a sanity check to see that I'm not that far off the deep end
16:59	bbloom	dnolen_: seems weird to me, since i've never heard of anyone doing "auto compile" for normal jvm clojure projects
16:59	bbloom	dnolen_: i think autocompile is a goofy idea from rails etc universe that web devs have adopted b/c of the refresh cycle in browsers
17:00	technomancy	bbloom: or people who don't know how after-save-hooks work =)
17:00	bbloom	i want to press the refresh button in my browser as infrequently as i restart lein in my dev env
17:00	technomancy	(I'm sure there's a vim equivalent)
17:00	dnolen_	bbloom: ^
17:00	dnolen_	bbloom: people already do this via various means in Clojure
17:00	bbloom	technomancy: do you use after-save-hooks to eval clojure files?
17:00	dnolen_	bbloom: reload namespaces is a thing - there's even middle ware for it
17:00	dnolen_	for ring
17:01	technomancy	bbloom: no, but if I wanted instant feedback, I sure as heck wouldn't be doing it in a lein plugin
17:01	bbloom	i save files so frequently and instinctually, i usualy save when the files would FAIL to compile
17:01	technomancy	but I don't actually want it, so yeah
17:01	bbloom	if it were up to me, files would always auto save w/o no save action
17:02	bbloom	on every damn keystroke
17:02	bbloom	but undo and commit are two different features
17:02	mlb-	technomancy: a hack I use is to start a nrepl with my ring server, then I can connect my vim to it and re-eval stuff in that JVM
17:02	bbloom	and save complects them
17:02	bbloom	i want durable undo to be automatic
17:02	bbloom	and commit (to my running env) to be explicit
17:03	bbloom	and i want to be able to commit individual expressions, not whole files
17:03	bbloom	i'm also a fan of git add -p :-)
17:03	AeroNotix	bbloom: I know someone who has their editor set up to commit to a branch on every save and then rebase squashes them before sending PRs
17:03	bbloom	AeroNotix: that sounds awesome
17:04	technomancy	inb4 smalltalk images
17:04	bbloom	technomancy: smalltalk images complect save and commit too, but standardize on commit instead of save :-P
17:04	amalloy	man, i save my files way too often for that to make sense. add a space, delete a space, save just in case
17:04	technomancy	never actually used it, other than via scratch
17:04	bbloom	although i guess "worlds" in the VPRI stuff is their solution
17:04	mdrogalis	technomancy: Haha :)
17:05	technomancy	my default assumption is that they got everything right decades ago and no one noticed
17:05	AeroNotix	amalloy: I know a monster who writes whole functions before saving
17:05	bbloom	amalloy: git can auto squash hundreds of commits, no problem
17:05	bbloom	thousands even
17:05	amalloy	bbloom: i'm aware of how to use git
17:05	AeroNotix	shots fired
17:05	bbloom	lol
17:05	bbloom	to me, it seems like vim's undo tree should just be git :-P
17:05	technomancy	bbloom: I once wrote a collaborative editing engine that used git rebase+auto-commit+mdns
17:06	technomancy	it sort of worked
17:06	AeroNotix	technomancy: wasn't that the thing on aws that used tmux sessions too?
17:06	technomancy	AeroNotix: same problem, different solution
17:06	AeroNotix	ah, that looked interesting
17:06	amalloy	but auto-squashing a zillion commits is so low-class. i prefer to squash manually so that i can come up with a legible commit log, not a single "do a million things" commit
17:06	devn	technomancy: what was that called again?
17:06	AeroNotix	technomancy: I always forget how to share tmux sessions ;)
17:06	AeroNotix	amalloy: nothing is stopping you from doing that
17:07	bbloom	amalloy: i prefer iterative refinement
17:07	amalloy	AeroNotix: if my editor made a new commit every time i saved, there would be a lot of commits that it would be hard to put together sensibly
17:07	bbloom	i usually have like 37973573 commits w/ the message "wip"
17:07	technomancy	devn: the git one? http://technomancy.us/113
17:07	bbloom	and i squash every so often after a logical unit of work
17:07	bbloom	then i re-arrange multiple sensible commits before making a PR
17:07	technomancy	AeroNotix: http://tmate.io is actually a lot simpler for many cases
17:08	devn	technomancy: ah yeah, ebby
17:09	amalloy	bbloom: your approach is reasonable too, of course. git is flexible enough to support a lot of completely different workflows
17:09	bbloom	amalloy: i'm just saying i wouldn't mind if i had 237957935793 commits that were labeled with messages the same way MS Word labels the "Undo" menu entry
17:09	bbloom	"Undo typing 'the'"
17:10	AeroNotix	technomancy: I don't use a MacOSX operating device
17:10	AeroNotix	oh it's x-platform
17:10	AeroNotix	scratch that
17:10	bbloom	also, i love typing numbers with 3537953 digits
17:10	bbloom	it's 309753753 kinds of fun
17:10	amalloy	bbloom: i'd be interested in trying it, too. it sounds neat. i don't think i'd like it long-term, but who knows
17:10	technomancy	AeroNotix: it's pronounced macosecks
17:10	AeroNotix	I'm surprised how accurately you get the same set of numbers
17:10	AeroNotix	technomancy: make sex?
17:11	technomancy	better than war
17:15	AeroNotix	is there a function somewhere to take a compojure request/response map and turn it into what would get sent on the wire?
17:16	justin_smith	AeroNotix: ring? (lol)
17:16	rmarianski	AeroNotix: https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/blob/dd98af112bd5d94d006570b84f507ac0df9b8068/ring-servlet/src/ring/util/servlet.clj#L105-L115
17:17	rmarianski	it's the job of the adapters
17:17	AeroNotix	justin_smith: why lol?
17:17	numberten	this should be a oom error right? (let [[t d] (split-with #(< % 12) (range 1e8))] [(count d) (count t)])
17:17	justin_smith	AeroNotix: you could call ring a program that turns requests into request maps, and response-maps into responses, that's pretty much what it is for - so it trivially does what you describe
17:18	numberten	whenever I run it lein repl hangs :/
17:18	AeroNotix	justin_smith: but i want a function that takes the request map and returns the string
17:18	AeroNotix	just for debugging
17:18	justin_smith	ring doesn't send a string, it sends a response, it has things like headers etc.
17:18	justin_smith	well I guess there is a string form...
17:18	AeroNotix	nevermind
17:19	justin_smith	AeroNotix: it sounds like a great idea for a ring adaptor: one that gets a request as a string, and returns the response as a string, for testing and debugging
17:19	technomancy	AeroNotix: shell out to curl? =)
17:19	justin_smith	you could call it ring-string
17:19	justin_smith	or maybe string-ring
17:19	justin_smith	I should make that project
17:20	bja	(inc justin_smith)
17:20	lazybot	⇒ 94
17:20	AeroNotix	justin_smith: ring-sting?
17:20	rmarianski	st-ring
17:20	stuartsierra	HTTP is surprisingly complicated when you get down into the details.
17:21	AeroNotix	justin_smith: I need to look up how to make a ring-adapter then
17:22	justin_smith	stuartsierra: yeah, I would have no intention of making a fully http-complient thing, just enough to be able to feed it a request and get a testable response for a fairly vanilla handler function
17:22	amalloy	numberten: you'll run out of memory eventually
17:22	AeroNotix	Method, headers, body
17:22	AeroNotix	all it really needs
17:23	marcoslamuria	hello
17:23	numberten	amalloy: over an hour of waiting :/
17:24	numberten	amalloy: and the version that releases the head only takes a few seconds, wouldn't you expect to see a oom exception in roughly the same time it takes to realize the whole seq?
17:24	amalloy	no. you're making a lot more work for the GC
17:25	amalloy	you allocate ten numbers, say, and then to allocate another you need to GC. so it scans the heap, finds ten million numbers it needs to keep, and a little ephemeral garbage it can clean up
17:25	justin_smith	numberten: the head does not escape scope, so it is not held onto
17:26	amalloy	justin_smith: yes it is. he has two references to the original seq
17:26	justin_smith	numberten: I have verified similar code in a profiler (amalloy probably remembers this, I had a weird bug)
17:27	justin_smith	amalloy: oh, count is enough to hold the head? I would have hoped it was smart enough to just have accumulated count + rest
17:27	amalloy	the value d isn't held onto, but while he's counting d he needs to hold onto t in order to count it
17:27	amalloy	and t needs to hold onto the range
17:27	amalloy	count doesn't hold any heads itself, of coruse
17:32	numberten	amalloy: yeah i'd just expect it to run out of space really quickly
17:32	numberten	since it can't gc any values
17:32	amalloy	numberten: it can gc some other stuff, though. cons cells in the split-with lazy seq
17:32	justin_smith	numberten: if you want to see a graph of gc / space usage, open up jvisualvm (comes with the jdk) and connect to your repl
17:33	justin_smith	numberten: it's a gui profiler, pretty self explanitory, gives nice graphs of metrics over time among other things
17:33	numberten	alright thanks
17:33	amalloy	you've made the job O(n^2) instead of O(n), where most of the time taken is inside the garbage collector
17:34	numberten	but wouldn't the non-head-retaining one also have to gc as much stuff?
17:34	numberten	can you explain where the ^2 comes from in that?
17:34	amalloy	yes, but the extra work is not "things it can gc", but "things it has to scan over while gcing"
17:35	numberten	ahhhh
17:35	numberten	i see
17:35	numberten	thanks :)
17:35	amalloy	because a huge portion of the process's memory is uncollectable
17:35	numberten	yeah
17:35	numberten	i get it
17:35	numberten	that's interesting
17:35	numberten	very cool
17:37	numberten	so gc time grows proportionally with the number of allocated things?
17:37	numberten	and when many of the those can't be gc'ed, it won't shrink
17:37	numberten	and possibly continue to grow?
17:37	numberten	amalloy: just to make sure I followed you :)
17:38	amalloy	well, the time taken to do a full gc
17:38	amalloy	but for minor collections, where most stuff is collectable, you don't really pay that cost
17:39	numberten	i see
17:39	amalloy	because the gc algorithm the jvm uses for minor collections is just "copy anything that's still alive into a new place, and mark the entire old place as reusable"
17:40	amalloy	so there's no cost that scales with things that are collected, until they've been alive long enough to be promoted into oldgen
17:42	amalloy	tldr gc is really complicated and anytime you think you know what's going on you're wrong
17:43	bbloom	amalloy: case in point, if you've got finalizers or weak refs, the copying collector needs to visit dead objects too!
17:45	amalloy	uhhhhh, weak refs, or phantom refs? i don't really know how weak refs fit into the gc plan, but kinda thought it would be in a way that doesn't create substantial extra work
17:45	bbloom	weak and phantom refs have the same mechanism, but just have a slightly different policies
17:46	bbloom	they basically go in a big table of special refs
17:46	bbloom	same time as finalizers, i believe
17:46	bbloom	or another table problem too
17:46	bbloom	probably*
17:46	bbloom	lots of tables
17:46	bbloom	heh
17:48	amalloy	bbloom: interesting. do you know where i can read about the mechanism?
17:49	bbloom	amalloy: http://www.amazon.com/The-Garbage-Collection-Handbook-Management/dp/1420082795
17:49	bbloom	amalloy: i'm sure there's somewhere else, heh
17:50	bbloom	but i just finished reading that, and it's covered reasonably well in there
17:50	amalloy	hm. i've read his "Garbage Collection: Algorithms for Automatic Dynamic Memory Management"
17:50	amalloy	or maybe i only got halfway through
17:50	bbloom	the jvm gets a fair bit of plan, since lots of GC researchers use ibm's research jvm as a test env
17:50	bbloom	s/plan/play
17:50	bbloom	man, i can't type even more than usual today
17:51	DomKM	Are there any good examples out there of a transient set implementation with deftype? I'm having trouble finding the right interfaces.
17:51	bbloom	,(transient #{})
17:51	clojurebot	#<TransientHashSet clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet$TransientHashSet@1351137>
17:52	bbloom	,(-> #{} transient class supers)
17:52	clojurebot	#{java.lang.Runnable clojure.lang.ATransientSet clojure.lang.Counted clojure.lang.AFn clojure.lang.ITransientSet ...}
17:52	amalloy	DomKM: i kinda have one
17:52	bbloom	DomKM: run that locally, start there
17:52	amalloy	https://github.com/flatland/ordered/blob/develop/src/flatland/ordered/set.clj#L97
17:52	DomKM	bbloom: my background isn't in Java; I was hoping to avoid stumbling around for a few hours
17:53	bbloom	(doc supers) ; DomKM
17:53	clojurebot	"([class]); Returns the immediate and indirect superclasses and interfaces of c, if any"
17:53	DomKM	thanks amalloy!
18:22	mdeboard	How do you guys do code-folding in Emacs+CIDER
18:26	justin_smith	mdeboard: hs-mode
18:26	justin_smith	hs-minor-mode that is
18:26	mdeboard	ok
18:26	justin_smith	it's nice, but you need to fix the default keybindings (those suck)
18:26	mdeboard	The keybinds for that are pretty onerous,I'm rebinding to C-c M-s and C-c M-h
18:27	mdeboard	haha
18:27	mdeboard	yeah
18:27	justin_smith	jynx
18:27	mdeboard	C-c @ C-h ?
18:27	mdeboard	I mean, good god
18:27	mdeboard	What do you use?
18:27	justin_smith	mdeboard: rember that C-c [a-zA-Z] are all reserved for your use and will never be used by a behaving emacs mode
18:27	mdeboard	Oh, right
18:27	mdeboard	good call
18:30	amalloy	i love that rule. i have like six or eight things on C-c [letter]
18:32	justin_smith	mdeboard: I use the following file full of keybindings that I call "outline-stuff.el" https://www.refheap.com/91922
18:32	justin_smith	I have a super-decomposed .emacs
18:33	justin_smith	it's using outline mode not hide-show, I had forgotten
18:33	mdeboard	hm
18:33	mdeboard	Never heard of that minor mode, sweet, thanks
18:40	justin_smith	mdeboard: hmm - that code is not working for the global "hide sublevels" command, but it does work for collapsing individual blocks
18:40	mdeboard	ya I'm chalking it up to look up later
18:40	mdeboard	For now hs-mode and C-c h/s works quite well
18:40	mdeboard	thanks for that reminder
18:41	justin_smith	yeah, I may go back to hs-mode myself now that I take a closer look...
18:53	arrdem	is there a good writeup of core.match somewhere? I'm not even seeing a writeup of the pattern notation.
19:00	Bronsa	arrdem: https://github.com/clojure/core.match/wiki/Basic-usage
19:04	arrdem	yeah. found that link reading a copy of the clojure cookbook I found googling.
19:26	dopamean_	why does (clojure.string/split "dopamean" #"") return a vector starting with an empty string?
19:32	justin_smith	,(clojure.string/split "dopamean" #"")
19:32	clojurebot	["" "d" "o" "p" "a" ...]
19:32	justin_smith	weird, it does that here, but not in my local repl
19:33	justin_smith	&(clojure.string/split "dopamean" #"")
19:33	lazybot	⇒ ["" "d" "o" "p" "a" "m" "e" "a" "n"]
19:33	dopamean_	every time i needed a list of chars from a sring like that i was doing (rest ....
19:33	dopamean_	then i recently discovered (char-array
19:33	hiredman	,(seq "foo")
19:33	clojurebot	(\f \o \o)
19:33	justin_smith	,(seq "dopamean")
19:33	clojurebot	(\d \o \p \a \m ...)
19:33	dopamean_	interesting
19:33	dopamean_	that actually may have been more useful
19:33	hiredman	,(map int "foo")
19:33	clojurebot	(102 111 111)
19:34	justin_smith	but string/split does not return a list of chars, it returns a vector of strings
19:34	dopamean_	,(char-array "dopamean")
19:34	clojurebot	#<char[] [C@59b2e>
19:34	hiredman	,(map int (char-array "foo"))
19:34	clojurebot	(102 111 111)
19:35	dopamean_	,(apply list (char-array "dopamean"))
19:35	clojurebot	(\d \o \p \a \m ...)
19:35	bostonaholic	this is the behavior of http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/util/regex/Pattern.html#split(java.lang.CharSequence)
19:35	bostonaholic	as well as http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/lang/String.html#split(java.lang.String)
19:35	dopamean_	right. i guess for my basic use today it didnt really matter if i got back a vector of string or a list of chars
19:35	justin_smith	,(apply str (map (comp char dec int) "IBM"))
19:35	clojurebot	"HAL"
19:36	amalloy	the problem with using #"" as a split is that it matches anywhere, without consuming even one character
19:36	justin_smith	amalloy: any idea why my local clojure 1.7-alpha java 8 repl would not match the first empty string?
19:37	amalloy	justin_smith: clojure version certainly doesn't matter. maybe java 8 changed how split works
19:38	dbasch	amalloy: why would they change something like split?
19:38	justin_smith	yeah, that has to be the difference, it's a weird one though
19:38	dbasch	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/22718744/why-does-split-in-java-8-sometimes-remove-empty-strings-at-start-of-result-array
19:38	justin_smith	but I am sitting here with a java 8 repl, and not getting the empty string at the beginning
19:39	justin_smith	ahh!
19:39	justin_smith	(inc dbasch)
19:39	lazybot	⇒ 14
19:39	dopamean_	man
19:39	dopamean_	i was beginning to feel a little crazy here
19:39	nullptr	hey, at least we can "blame java"
19:40	dopamean_	as long as its not me
19:41	dopamean_	,(type (char-array "dopamean"))
19:41	clojurebot	[C
19:41	dopamean_	wtf is that
19:42	dopamean_	was expecting something more along the line of clojure.lang.Charsomethingortheother
19:42	amalloy	dopamean_: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jvms/se7/html/jvms-4.html#jvms-4.3
19:43	dbasch	dopamean_: the string representation of the class arrays of native types is something like [X
19:43	dbasch	e.g. [B for byte array
19:43	dopamean_	ahhhh. ok. thanks a lot
19:43	dbasch	&(class (float-array [1.0]))
19:43	lazybot	⇒ [F
19:53	squeedee	I'm having a blast learning some clojure
20:03	squeedee	Is there a way to map two colls such that the longest collection is used, and nil stands in for the shorter one?
20:04	technomancy	concat the shorter with (repeat nil) maybe
20:05	amalloy	technomancy: works iff you know which is shorter
20:05	technomancy	indeed
20:05	technomancy	eh just do it on both; what's the worst that could happen
20:06	justin_smith	,(def worst-that-could-happen (repeatedly #(nil)))
20:06	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Can't call nil, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
20:06	amalloy	that special-casing of (nil) has always seemed silly to me
20:07	justin_smith	,(def almost-as-bad (repeatedly #(/ 0 0)))
20:07	clojurebot	#'sandbox/almost-as-bad
20:08	squeedee	hmm
20:09	amalloy	like, why doesn't clojure let me compile (fn [] (nil)) if i don't plan to ever call it? i can imagine a macro generating code like that
20:10	EvanR	has any one had success setting up vim and fireplace.vim
20:10	technomancy	huh that's the first time I've ever heard anyone complain about clojure being too strict around nil
20:10	technomancy	actually now I can't tell if it's serious
20:10	justin_smith	EvanR: rumor has it there is at least one user
20:11	EvanR	i can use the repl functionality, but it cant find any of my jars when i try to run my code
20:11	technomancy	I heard the pope uses fireplace
20:11	EvanR	i really wonder if he does
20:12	justin_smith	EvanR: do you connect to a project repl? if you run (.getCanonicalPath (java.io.File. ".")) do you see the expected project directory?
20:12	EvanR	yes
20:12	justin_smith	and when you say "cant find your jars" do you mean you try to require namespaces and it can't find them? what does your code to require the ns look like?
20:13	EvanR	i was wondering the same thing but didnt know how to test, whether the repl was running on the project correctly
20:13	EvanR	i was trying :Require
20:13	EvanR	which did...
20:13	justin_smith	(require '[your.ns :as alias])
20:13	EvanR	(require 'gangway.google-cloud-storage :reload)
20:13	justin_smith	,(:require 'anything :reload) ; is a noop
20:13	clojurebot	:reload
20:14	justin_smith	you need to leave off the :
20:14	EvanR	seems like a bug in the command right
20:14	justin_smith	nope
20:14	justin_smith	,(:any-keyword 'whatever :something-else)
20:14	clojurebot	:something-else
20:14	justin_smith	that's how keywords work
20:14	justin_smith	you want 'require' the function, not ':require' the keyword
20:15	justin_smith	oh wait...
20:15	EvanR	yeah, thats just the command that fireplace is emitting when i use the :Require command in vim
20:15	justin_smith	I totally misread
20:15	EvanR	im trying the no colon version to make sure it works
20:15	justin_smith	oh, :Require the vim command
20:15	justin_smith	yeah, just try it in the repl first, sorry - I don't know the vim commands so I was confused
20:16	EvanR	try what exactly
20:16	EvanR	right now my requires work in intellij with :require because its inside of a ns macro
20:16	EvanR	it seems
20:16	dustingetz	i am a clojurescript newbie, i have a cljs project with one .cljs file that i want to include via a git submodule in a second cljs project
20:16	justin_smith	EvanR: right, that's now the ns macro works
20:17	dustingetz	how do i configure the parent project's project.clj to know about the submodule
20:17	justin_smith	so, after (require 'gangway.google-cloud-storage :reload) runs, can you call foo as (gangway.google-cloud-storage/foo ...)
20:17	justin_smith	substitute an actual function of course
20:17	justin_smith	if so, use the :as version I described above to get a usable alias
20:17	EvanR	justin_smith, yeah, that results in the same thing. which is: ClassNotFoundException com.google.api.client.http.GenericUrl java.net.URLClassLoader$1.run (URLClassLoader.java:372)
20:17	nullptr	dustingetz: so there are two project.clj files?
20:18	EvanR	justin_smith, the require
20:18	justin_smith	ahh
20:18	dustingetz	that is correct, both are trivial other than standard cljs stuff
20:18	justin_smith	so, how are you specifying the class dependency for google.blah.GenericUrl?
20:19	EvanR	the dependencies are listed in my project.clj
20:19	nullptr	dustingetz: i haven't seen that done -- normally they would be side-by-side and communicate via lein deps
20:19	dustingetz	How can I do that, while keeping the git repos separate
20:19	dustingetz	just a pointer in the right direction is enough
20:19	justin_smith	EvanR: and if you run lein deps :tree in the project directory do you see the artifact you expect in the output?
20:20	EvanR	justin_smith, sorry, still getting used to this damned laptop keyboard
20:20	EvanR	can you repeat that
20:20	justin_smith	lein deps :tree
20:20	nullptr	dustingetz: i suppose you could have each being a submodule with a parent that just organizes them, not sure if that makes sense in your case
20:20	justin_smith	if you run that in the project dir, do you see the artifact in there that would include that class?
20:21	dustingetz	thanks i think that's enough of a hint, thank you
20:23	nullptr	dustingetz: no problem -- did your work on react-cursor inspire a closer look at cljs?
20:23	EvanR	justin_smith, no particularly, now that i look at project.clj, i dont even know what that would be
20:23	EvanR	not*
20:24	EvanR	i assumed it was working in intellij due to some anonymous dependency
20:24	dustingetz	ha! no, i'm just finally disentangled from all my javascript commitments
20:24	EvanR	this error is about the first import in my file, but maybe its a coinsidence and i need to list the actual library
20:25	justin_smith	EvanR: how do you manage your deps with this project?
20:26	justin_smith	sorry, back scrolling, you are using lein and project.clj, I just mis-parsed a statement
20:26	EvanR	justin_smith, theres a project.clj and intellij occasionally says "synchronizing leiningin"
20:27	justin_smith	EvanR: clearly the solution is to explicitly include the artifact that includes that google lib in your project.clj
20:27	EvanR	im still in the process of understanding what any of this even means
20:27	justin_smith	OK
20:27	EvanR	i dont see anything google relateed in my project so wtf
20:27	EvanR	i will try that
20:28	justin_smith	project.clj describes your deps - all external code other than stuff that comes with the jvm should be specified there
20:28	EvanR	does the system support downloading and installing deps and using them without them being in that project.clj?
20:29	justin_smith	EvanR: it's possible, but it's not worth it, it's a pain in the ass
20:29	technomancy	is this cljs?
20:29	EvanR	i am realizing
20:30	justin_smith	technomancy: com.google.api.client.http.GenericUrl java.net.URLClassLoader$1.run (URLClassLoader.java:372) makes me think no
20:30	technomancy	oh gotcha.
20:30	EvanR	you know what the ssue might be, there is a plausible dep listed in a project clj which is in a sibling dir to my project dir, but both are shown in the intellij file tree. maybe it is just downloading all deps in sight and treating this as one huge big project
20:30	EvanR	cljs?
20:30	justin_smith	technomancy: to me it looks like he was using intellij which was doing some magic with the deps, and is now transitioning to vim
20:30	clojurebot	cljs is not the place to be if you want your code to stay the same month to month.
20:30	technomancy	EvanR: one of your dependencies needs a dependency on a google lib or something maybe
20:31	justin_smith	EvanR: I bet that is it - but if your project uses an artifact, it should be declared in the deps of that project
20:31	EvanR	yes
20:31	EvanR	doing it
20:32	EvanR	would be really stupid if i dump a working vim environment because of something unrelated
20:33	EvanR	ok vim took a little while to load, seems plausible
20:34	justin_smith	EvanR: were you using cursive previously?
20:34	EvanR	what was the command i was supposed to run, :Require did not succeed
20:34	EvanR	yes
20:35	alexbaranosky_	requie
20:35	justin_smith	you may want to report what happened as a but in the project sync - cfleming is the cursive dev
20:35	alexbaranosky_	oops mistype... :)
20:35	alexbaranosky_	irc on the phone. uts a beautiful world
20:36	justin_smith	(require 'gangway.google-cloud-storage :reload) - and maybe just try this in a lein repl instance
20:36	justin_smith	that takes out at least one point of failure
20:36	EvanR	ok
20:37	EvanR	ah
20:37	EvanR	new error, cant load something else, also not in my deps i think
20:38	EvanR	light at the end of the tunnel
20:38	justin_smith	shortcut: "lein check"
20:38	justin_smith	that will compile all your namespaces, and report any errors
20:38	justin_smith	without any repl interaction needed
20:38	EvanR	reflection warnings
20:38	justin_smith	then just chase down the missing classes
20:38	justin_smith	yeah, that too :)
20:38	justin_smith	I guess lein compile would be more straightforward in this case maybe
20:39	justin_smith	but anyway, a missing class should throw an error
20:39	EvanR	this particular program is doing a bunch of network and db connections at the top level, so its having trouble compiling because those remote hosts arent running, im glad you made me run that so i realize how much that needs to not happen
20:40	justin_smith	right, this would be a problem eventually no matter waht :) top level side effects are bad
20:41	EvanR	gotta love several shitstorms at once lol
20:42	justin_smith	heh
20:42	justin_smith	now who lined up the feces and did the rain dance, you might ask?
20:44	EvanR	what the hell library is this supposed to be in
20:44	justin_smith	google is often very helpful finding a mvn dep to go with a random class name, in my experience
20:45	arrdem	Bronsa: is there a way to exclude class aliases?
20:45	EvanR	right
20:46	Bronsa	arrdem: what do you mean? exclude from the auto import?
20:46	arrdem	Bronsa: yeah
20:46	Bronsa	arrdem: no, you have to manually ns-unmap them
20:46	arrdem	Bronsa: use case being (defrecord Package)
20:46	arrdem	damnit. okay thanks.
20:46	arrdem	(inc Bronsa)
20:46	lazybot	⇒ 63
20:47	EvanR	ok all these deps were already in the project, i think something happened with git and they got reverted
20:47	EvanR	probably my fault
20:47	justin_smith	ahh, some weird git / intellij interaction then
20:48	EvanR	yeah, closing intellij right now
20:49	arrdem	Bronsa: yeah that worked. thanks.
20:51	arrdem	Bronsa: hey hey check this out
20:52	arrdem	Bronsa: (do (ns-ummap ns 'Class) (defrecord Class []))
20:54	mdeboard	pwned
20:54	EvanR	i cant believe it, it all works now
20:54	EvanR	justin_smith, thanks
20:54	EvanR	im probably going to be lurking here a lot for a while
20:55	Bronsa	arrdem: ummap?
20:55	clojurebot	I don't understand.
20:55	arrdem	Bronsa: that's me failing at typing. unmap.
20:56	arrdem	this may be a reloading related issue not a strict compiler bug, but that's killing my 1.6 instance
20:56	Bronsa	arrdem: uhm, it works fine on my repl
20:56	amalloy	you and 700 other people, EvanR
20:57	dbasch	most of us are bots
20:57	Bronsa	arrdem: I'm not sure I would recommend ns-unmapping java.lang.* Classes TBH. really weird things might happen w/ type hinting
20:57	arrdem	dbasch: speak for yourself. some of us have feelings.
20:58	dbasch	arrdem: tell me more about some of us have feelings
20:58	EvanR	automatic love
20:58	arrdem	(inc dbasch)
20:58	lazybot	⇒ 15
20:58	EvanR	(/ 99 0)
20:58	dbasch	&(/ 99 0)
20:58	lazybot	java.lang.ArithmeticException: Divide by zero
20:58	arrdem	Bronsa: https://github.com/clojure-grimoire/grimoire/blob/3c285da0e77b8d5e45d5be1b93e6bbf7b26be319/src/grimoire/web/api.clj
20:59	EvanR	(/ 99.0 0.0)
20:59	justin_smith	EvanR: inc is a bot command that only looks kind of like clojure code, it actually just mutates a database of karma
20:59	EvanR	oh
20:59	justin_smith	you need , or & to activate the bots
20:59	arrdem	some of us only get &
20:59	justin_smith	,(= (/ 99.0 0.0) (/ 99.0 0.0))
20:59	clojurebot	true
21:00	EvanR	&(unsafe-launch-missiles :fort-knox)
21:00	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: unsafe-launch-missiles in this context
21:00	justin_smith	,(launch-missiles! intern)
21:00	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: launch-missiles! in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
21:00	EvanR	time to figure out these god awful Meta-keycombos to do slurp and barf
21:01	EvanR	which do not work as advertised
21:01	justin_smith	,(= (/ 0.0 0.0) (/ 0.0 0.0))
21:01	clojurebot	false
21:01	EvanR	no NaN constants, as usual
21:02	EvanR	&(+ 4 NaN)
21:02	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: NaN in this context
21:02	EvanR	&(+ 4 4.0)
21:02	lazybot	⇒ 8.0
21:03	justin_smith	,(= Double/NaN Double/NaN) ; EvanR
21:03	clojurebot	false
21:03	EvanR	ah
21:04	EvanR	seeing double now
21:04	EvanR	double NaN gum
21:07	dustingetz	anyone know if lein cljsbuild compatible with lein "checkouts" directory?
21:08	dustingetz	as soon as I started using a checkouts directory to refer a sibling project, I stopped seeing js files for my cljs dependencies
21:08	dustingetz	*compiled js files
21:08	EvanR	justin_smith, and if i try to use [d to jump to definition for symbol, i get ClassNotFoundException clojure.repl java.net.URLClassLoader$1.run (URLClassLoader.java:372)
21:10	justin_smith	that's very weird - try (require 'clojure.repl)
21:10	justin_smith	and if that makes it work, maybe report an issue with fireplace
21:11	justin_smith	afk going out to a show
21:12	sevvie	Arcadia is very impressive.
21:13	EvanR	it works thanks
23:42	ddellacosta	,(println "hello")
23:42	clojurebot	eval service is offline
23:51	quizme	i'm trying to use subseq on a sorted-set of hash-maps, sorted by a particular key, but it doesn't seem to be working. can somebody give me an example of how to do this?