2014-08-06
| 01:18 | gazarsgo | i think my head is going to explode from IllegalStateException xxxx already refers to :( |
| 01:18 | Balveda | I think I get the joke about Emacs being an OS |
| 01:18 | gazarsgo | i am trying to follow the recommendation here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4648634/getting-illegalstateexception-when-reloading-a-namespace-in-the-repl but with no luck :( |
| 01:18 | Balveda | Weird that you can get in IRC with a text editor |
| 01:31 | visof | hi |
| 01:32 | visof | what is the best way to set config for use in the code, as example: if i want to start a server from clojure code, i need to set port, URL, ..., in c as example i can define these config as #define or enum, what is the best habit to do this in clojure |
| 01:32 | visof | ? |
| 01:32 | visof | currently i'm using (def port "1234") |
| 01:33 | visof | is this the best? |
| 01:34 | gazarsgo | should i have one test per deftest ? |
| 01:42 | mynomoto | visof: there is a lot of options. You can use something like https://github.com/weavejester/environ to use environment variables to configure your app. |
| 01:44 | mynomoto | visof: Or you could put those things on a map like (def config {:port 1234 :url "my-url"}) |
| 01:44 | mynomoto | visof: and there is the component approach: https://github.com/stuartsierra/component |
| 01:44 | gazarsgo | anyone have a second to look at https://github.com/ralph-tice/riemann-jvm-profiler/blob/prefix_adjustment/test/riemann/jvm_profiler/core_test.clj and suggest how i might shadow clojure.test/report correctly ? |
| 01:46 | mynomoto | gazarsgo: You can have several assertions in a single deftest. |
| 01:46 | gazarsgo | mynomoto: i am still a little confused how deftest relates to testing |
| 01:47 | gazarsgo | just a label for my block of assertions ? |
| 01:47 | Balveda | (map [1 2 3]) |
| 01:47 | Balveda | whoops |
| 01:48 | mynomoto | gazarsgo: You could call deftest that. Take a look at http://stackoverflow.com/questions/24970853/run-one-clojure-test-not-all-tests-in-a-namespace-with-fixtures-from-the-rep |
| 01:50 | gazarsgo | the namespace i'm testing has a method that already exists in clojure.test |
| 01:53 | mynomoto | gazarsgo: and? Are you using :refer :all or :use? You don't need to do that. |
| 01:54 | gazarsgo | trying to resolve my illegalstateexception for shadowing reports wrong ... |
| 01:55 | gazarsgo | if ijust require clojure.test i get a unable to resolve symbol |
| 01:56 | gazarsgo | if i require w/o :refer :all or :use on the namespace i'm testing i also get unable to resolve symbol ( for symbols in the namespace under test ... ) |
| 01:57 | gazarsgo | if i use both namepsace under test and clojure.test i get illegalstateexception on shadowing a core function... |
| 01:59 | mynomoto | gazarsgo: Can I see the namespace? Can you gist it? or refheap? |
| 01:59 | gazarsgo | i linked the github above, https://github.com/ralph-tice/riemann-jvm-profiler/blob/prefix_adjustment/test/riemann/jvm_profiler/core_test.clj |
| 02:03 | mynomoto | gazarsgo: Sorry, I don't have riemann installed. |
| 02:03 | gazarsgo | can you not run `lein test` without riemann installed ? that's unfortunate |
| 02:04 | mynomoto | I can't. I got java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate riemann_jvm/core_test__init.class or riemann_jvm/core_test.clj on classpath |
| 02:05 | mynomoto | gazarsgo: gist the error then. Maybe I still could help... |
| 02:05 | gazarsgo | IllegalStateException: report already refers to: #'clojure.test/report in namespace: riemann.jvm-profiler.core-test |
| 02:06 | gazarsgo | also that error is on master, prob have to checkout prefix_adjustment branch to see my stuff |
| 02:06 | gazarsgo | (the error you posted, not mine above) |
| 02:07 | gazarsgo | i have a project to reproduce the issue cleanly, let me push it up |
| 02:08 | gazarsgo | https://github.com/ralph-tice/clojure-shadowing |
| 02:08 | mynomoto | gazarsgo: on your branch the tests run successfully. |
| 02:09 | gazarsgo | ah, yeah, but i have test/deftest in the test... |
| 02:09 | mynomoto | gazarsgo: But that's what you need. |
| 02:10 | gazarsgo | i should be able to include the namespace except for the function i want to shadow ? |
| 02:10 | mynomoto | If you gave an alias to a namespace you need to use that to refer the namespace. |
| 02:11 | gazarsgo | i would like to include the clojure.test namespace and shadow the clojure.test report function |
| 02:16 | mynomoto | gazarsgo: you may use (:use clojure.test :exclude [report]) |
| 02:17 | gazarsgo | :exclude is not a valid option to use :( |
| 02:17 | gazarsgo | java.lang.Exception: Unsupported option(s) supplied: :exclude |
| 02:17 | gazarsgo | i'm going to sleep on it, thanks for the second pair of eyes |
| 02:18 | mynomoto | gazarsgo: it used to be, but I'm not sure about inside the ns macro. |
| 02:18 | gazarsgo | naming things still doing its best to rank up there on most difficult problems :) |
| 02:20 | mynomoto | gazarsgo: you can also :refer only what you are going to use. |
| 02:20 | mynomoto | gazarsgo: and that I'm sure it works. |
| 02:23 | mynomoto | gazarsgo: also I just tested and :use with :exclude just worked on your example. |
| 02:46 | EnglishGent | Hi! I seem to be struggling with nrepl |
| 02:46 | EnglishGent | specifically it won't give me the option to jack-in |
| 02:46 | EnglishGent | anyone able to help? |
| 02:46 | EnglishGent | Thanks! :) |
| 02:54 | zeebrah | EnglishGent: try cider? |
| 02:56 | gazarsgo | mynomoto: must be past my bedtime, i got it working now too, thanks |
| 02:57 | gazarsgo | oh, i didn't have exclude inside the [] of my :use before |
| 02:57 | EnglishGent | hi zeebrah |
| 02:57 | EnglishGent | I thought Cider was something complimentary |
| 02:57 | EnglishGent | I'm new to clojure - first I hear I wanted to go looking for something called Slime |
| 02:58 | EnglishGent | and then I was told 'no - nrepl is more modern' |
| 02:58 | EnglishGent | (this from googling) |
| 02:58 | zeebrah | EnglishGent: just try cider dont worry about nrepl, first remove it if you have installed it |
| 02:58 | EnglishGent | ok - thanks - I shall do that :) |
| 04:58 | lvh | tbaldridge: Hi! I was watching your core.async talk http://www.infoq.com/presentations/clojure-library-core-async ; at 20:07 (re: logging channel); why is that channel unbuffered? |
| 04:59 | lvh | IIUC that means stuff parks/blocks when that channel is busy |
| 04:59 | lvh | presumably you also don't want to throw data away, so that makes sense |
| 04:59 | lvh | but Ig uess println is usually fast enough? |
| 05:43 | visof | hi |
| 05:44 | visof | this line (.createIndex graph "name" Vertex) is the right clojure equivalent to java graph.createKeyIndex("name", Vertex.class); right? |
| 05:46 | Bronsa | right |
| 05:56 | kstrempel | nearly.. graph.createIndex .. not graph.createKeyIndex.. |
| 06:03 | michaelr525 | hi |
| 06:03 | michaelr525 | REPL server launch timed out. |
| 06:04 | michaelr525 | How to debug this ^^^^? |
| 06:07 | michaelr525 | oh |
| 06:07 | michaelr525 | it was :jvm-opts ["-XX:-OmitStackTraceInFastThrow"] |
| 06:07 | michaelr525 | removing it solved the problem |
| 06:22 | lvh | so, in emacs, when I do C-c C-e, the sexp gets evald in the running repl |
| 06:22 | lvh | however, I see the result in the minibuffer |
| 06:22 | lvh | is there a way to copy the expr into the repl window instead? |
| 06:22 | lvh | or at least not in the minibuffer |
| 06:23 | llasram | lvh: The result will be bound to the var `*1` in your repl |
| 06:23 | wagjo | ,(pop nil) |
| 06:23 | clojurebot | nil |
| 06:23 | wagjo | ,(pop []) |
| 06:23 | clojurebot | #<IllegalStateException java.lang.IllegalStateException: Can't pop empty vector> |
| 06:24 | llasram | lvh: You can also use the C-u universal prefix to cause CIDER to insert the evaluation result at point |
| 06:26 | lvh | llasram: yeah but I'm not really worried about being able to use the result |
| 06:26 | lvh | llasram: C-u C-c C-e? |
| 06:26 | lvh | llasram: I just want to be able to review the stuff I was doing |
| 06:28 | llasram | Well then there you go |
| 06:28 | llasram | And having it bound to `*1` means you can e.g. just print it again |
| 06:46 | lvh | llasram: ah, right, but I don't really want it at point. I want it to look like I killed the expression and moved it to the repl and pressed enter |
| 07:09 | alexanderkyte | How do I create a typecasted null in clojure? |
| 07:09 | alexanderkyte | The use case is this: http://stackoverflow.com/a/13186744/3745283 |
| 07:11 | wagjo | alexanderkyte: how about this approach: (let [^java.lang.String null-string nil] ...) |
| 07:12 | Bronsa | alexanderkyte: ^String (identity nil) should work |
| 07:12 | Bronsa | or what wagjo said |
| 07:13 | alexanderkyte | Ah so it's the "^Type nil" literal that's thrown out but a created nil is fine? |
| 07:18 | scape_ | how do I get the new cider? when i refresh package contents for melpa and reinstall cider it compiles and installs but is still an older version |
| 07:19 | wagjo | alexanderkyte: difference is where you put the hint. typehinting a constant mostly does not work as expected. Rule of thumb is to always typehint a symbol. |
| 07:37 | thesaskwatch | Hi, I'm trying to convert a hex string to java byte array. (I have 128 bit aes key represented as hex string). How would you do that? I got to the point where I have a seq of integers (0-255). |
| 07:37 | thesaskwatch | When I try to convert that to bytes I get an error, because java bytes is signed |
| 07:38 | thesaskwatch | well .. I could just subtract 128 from every int |
| 07:58 | scape_ | try unchecked-byte |
| 08:00 | scape_ | ,(unchecked-byte 255) |
| 08:00 | clojurebot | -1 |
| 08:15 | krumholt | ,(java.util.Arrays/toString (.toByteArray (java.math.BigInteger. "756B60D" 16))) |
| 08:15 | clojurebot | "[7, 86, -74, 13]" |
| 08:15 | krumholt | thesaskwatch, that might work |
| 08:16 | SagiCZ1 | ,(= (Integer. 3) 3) |
| 08:16 | clojurebot | true |
| 08:16 | SagiCZ1 | ,(= (Double. 3.4) 3.4) |
| 08:16 | clojurebot | true |
| 08:16 | SagiCZ1 | ,(= (Integer. 1) (new Integer 1)) |
| 08:16 | clojurebot | true |
| 08:17 | thesaskwatch | krumholt: thanks |
| 08:17 | SagiCZ1 | how does the dot operator work instead of new? |
| 08:17 | thesaskwatch | krumholt: but I did it like this https://gist.github.com/mateusz-fiolka/a9db9a4c16a8761fdd01 Quite long but seems to work |
| 08:18 | TEttinger | SagiCZ1, I believe a . after a java class name just translates to "new JavaClassWhatever" |
| 08:18 | krumholt | thesaskwatch, that'll work too. BigInteger constructor probably does the same thing |
| 08:18 | SagiCZ1 | TEttinger: But its not a macro right? how did they implement that |
| 08:18 | TEttinger | . is a reader macro I think |
| 08:19 | TEttinger | part of the core language maybe. |
| 08:19 | SagiCZ1 | defmacro is not a reader macro? |
| 08:19 | TEttinger | not sure. so ^ is a reader macro |
| 08:19 | TEttinger | I think defmacro is a regular macro |
| 08:19 | TEttinger | another example is #{} |
| 08:20 | TEttinger | that turns into a constructor for a set, using a reader macro |
| 08:20 | SagiCZ1 | i see.. that does make sense |
| 08:20 | SagiCZ1 | ,(= (set 1 2) #{1 2}) |
| 08:20 | clojurebot | #<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core/set> |
| 08:20 | SagiCZ1 | ,(= (set [1 2]) #{1 2}) |
| 08:20 | clojurebot | true |
| 08:21 | TEttinger | ,(= (vector 1 2) [1 2]) |
| 08:21 | clojurebot | true |
| 08:23 | SagiCZ1 | TEttinger: thank you. |
| 08:23 | SagiCZ1 | ,(= [] vector) |
| 08:23 | clojurebot | false |
| 08:24 | SagiCZ1 | so i cant use [] as a function |
| 08:24 | TEttinger | ,(= [] (vector)) |
| 08:24 | clojurebot | true |
| 08:24 | SagiCZ1 | darn.. so close |
| 08:24 | TEttinger | but yeah, there I am creating a vector on either side |
| 08:24 | justin_smith | SagiCZ1: regarding MyClass. and new - it technically does not translate into "new MyClass()", since clojure does not compile into java, it generates bytecode that is equivalent to what java would create for new though |
| 08:25 | SagiCZ1 | justin_smith: so there is no real difference from my point in using .MyClass and new Class right? its just a matter of preference? |
| 08:25 | justin_smith | the "new" syntax in clojure is depricated |
| 08:26 | SagiCZ1 | (doc new) |
| 08:26 | clojurebot | Titim gan éirí ort. |
| 08:26 | SagiCZ1 | wow |
| 08:26 | TEttinger | comparing to vector with no parentheses is not calling the function vector, it is actually comparing to the function itself -- which is something like a clojure version of "new Vector()" |
| 08:28 | SagiCZ1 | and how do i acess static members? |
| 08:28 | SagiCZ1 | (.MAX_VALUE Double) |
| 08:28 | SagiCZ1 | ,(.MAX_VALUE Double) |
| 08:28 | clojurebot | #<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: MAX_VALUE for class java.lang.Class> |
| 08:29 | hyPiRion | SagiCZ1: Double/MAX_VALUE |
| 08:29 | SagiCZ1 | ,Double/MAX_VALUE |
| 08:29 | clojurebot | 1.7976931348623157E308 |
| 08:29 | SagiCZ1 | ok.. and non-static members with the dots.. ok i will remember it now.. thanks |
| 08:30 | Janiczek | Anybody knows how to get test.check to generate strings of less than 6 characters? (I see `resize` - but that makes them strictly 6 characters, and `such-that`, which fails later as it tries to increase the size) |
| 08:31 | TEttinger | Janiczek, resize to (inc (rand-int 5)) |
| 08:33 | Janiczek | TEttinger: ah, clever! works, thanks :) |
| 08:57 | afhammad | Can anyone shed some light on this: https://github.com/michaelklishin/monger/issues/85#issuecomment-51324282 |
| 08:59 | silasdavis | if I have a function of a protocol defined on a record |
| 09:00 | silasdavis | that does not make use of the record fields |
| 09:00 | silasdavis | i.e. it is essentially static |
| 09:00 | silasdavis | is there a way I can call it without instantiating the record |
| 09:00 | silasdavis | ? |
| 09:01 | justin_smith | silasdavis: sounds like someone should have defined it as a standalone function |
| 09:03 | silasdavis | well the function belongs to the type |
| 09:03 | silasdavis | so I'd have to mechanically link the standalone version to the record if I moved it out |
| 09:18 | lvh | Is it wrong of me to want core.logic to interpret nil as not-a-constraint == succeed? |
| 09:18 | lvh | it makes constraints that only occasionally apply that much easier |
| 09:23 | Bronsa | puredanger: are you by any chance familiar with the implementation of static invokes in the direct branch? |
| 09:24 | puredanger | some |
| 09:24 | Bronsa | well, do you happen to know why fns with an enclosing function cannot be eligible for the staticInvoke optimization? |
| 09:25 | Bronsa | I'm talking about the !fn.hashEnclosingMethod test here https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/7806e33eb6a68c528095a6afebf1076124b4ee5f#diff-f17f860d14163523f1e1308ece478ddbR3928 |
| 09:28 | clgv | Bronsa: is that canBeDirect stuff a new feature for 1.7? |
| 09:28 | Bronsa | clgv: it's in a branch for now, no idea if it's going to make 1.7 but I think so |
| 09:29 | clgv | Bronsa: ok it's a feature experiment for now ^^ |
| 09:29 | clgv | Bronsa: that ^:static metadata has no effect in current clojure right? |
| 09:29 | Bronsa | right |
| 09:30 | puredanger | clgv: it's experimental, release TBD |
| 09:30 | clgv | I saw it in core a while back and wondered what it was |
| 09:30 | puredanger | Bronsa: I believe that's for a defn enclosed in an enclosing form, right? |
| 09:31 | Bronsa | puredanger: should be for every fn inside another fn, not necessarily a defn |
| 09:33 | puredanger | I assume b/c it might need class state that's not static, but I don't actually know for sure |
| 09:33 | puredanger | like other closed over things? |
| 09:33 | justin_smith | yeah, closed over stuff that would be attached to the wrapping instance, right? |
| 09:34 | justin_smith | and if it doesn't have those, why is it embedded in the first case |
| 09:34 | Bronsa | shouldn't be for closed overs, that's taken care by the other check |
| 09:34 | Bronsa | fn.closes.count() == 0 |
| 09:35 | Bronsa | I guess I'l play around and see what fails when I remove that check |
| 09:41 | puredanger | right |
| 09:41 | reiddraper | Janiczek: or just take the first 5 characters of the string (fmap #(take 5 %) string) |
| 09:41 | puredanger | it's also possible that's just scoping work and is temporary. similarly, self calls are not currently handled but I think Rich had a plan for those too. |
| 09:42 | justin_smith | reiddraper: is fmap that utility function that is like map but it preserves the input type? where is it defined? |
| 09:43 | reiddraper | justin_smith: nah, it's a test.check specific thing. clojure.test.check.generators/fmap |
| 09:43 | justin_smith | oh, ok |
| 09:43 | Bronsa | puredanger: cool, I was thinking about that aswell. currently if the this local is referenced the fn is not eligible for staticInvoke when it should actually only be when the local is used as a value |
| 09:44 | puredanger | Bronsa: if you're looking at direct, there is also a missing check for dynamic vars in StaticInvokeExpr.parse(). Needs an "if(v.isDynamic()) return null;" near the top - I don't think that ever got committed. |
| 09:47 | Janiczek | reiddraper: nice, thanks! |
| 09:52 | thheller | puredanger: great to see progress on CLJS-27, any plans for clojure though? doesn't seem all that useful unless we have the same for clj |
| 09:53 | Bronsa | puredanger: ah right, thanks. I'm just looking at direct to get an idea on what needs to be done to port that to tools.analyzer.jvm |
| 09:53 | dnolen_ | thheller: there's work in progress in all the necessary places for this |
| 09:53 | thheller | awesome |
| 09:55 | puredanger | I haven't done anything with tools.analyzer.jvm yet. patches for cli, cljs, and tools.reader are all linked from http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Feature+Expressions at the bottom |
| 09:55 | puredanger | s/cli/clj/ |
| 09:56 | Bronsa | not sure I understand what tools.analyzer.jvm has to do with feature exprs |
| 09:57 | thheller | ah thx |
| 10:06 | puredanger | Bronsa: sorry, looks like I crossed the streams on direct and feature expressions there :) |
| 10:39 | modulus | hi there, when i start lein repl outside a project dir i get a lot of errors, they seem to be related to unknown source for clojure.tools.nrepl.StdoutBuffer.length ... any ideas? |
| 10:40 | trptcolin | modulus: yep, being fixed |
| 10:40 | hyPiRion | modulus: `lein downgrade 2.4.2` – it's a bug |
| 10:40 | modulus | ah many thanks! |
| 10:40 | hyPiRion | we're on it |
| 10:40 | hyPiRion | well, trptcolin is at least :p |
| 10:42 | trptcolin | it's an nrepl version mismatch; lein master is patched now, but still need to sort what allowed/caused transitive deps to change from lein-source to lein-uberjarred |
| 10:44 | modulus | that's great then, if it's under control. |
| 10:44 | modulus | it seems to work ok inside projects, or at least inside some of them |
| 10:44 | trptcolin | yes |
| 10:49 | modulus | laters |
| 10:54 | tadni_ | Is Clojure well suited for an introductory language? |
| 10:54 | justin_smith | tadni_: racket has many of the same benefits, but is much more beginner friendly |
| 10:55 | justin_smith | but clojure has benefits for large scale usage server side (because it compiles to the jvm and can easily call java code) |
| 10:57 | nlminhtl | Does some easy way exist to remove all xml tags from the string? |
| 10:57 | tadni_ | So the lack thereof of teaching materials at the introductory level, does not make it compelling over Racket -- as-is now? |
| 10:58 | justin_smith | tadni_: not just teachning materials - it's just not designed to be beginner friendly |
| 10:59 | tadni_ | Besides concurrency, what else may be inherently "more complicated" over other Lisps? |
| 11:00 | justin_smith | tadni_: many constructs and features of clojure are dependent on the underlying platform |
| 11:00 | tadni_ | That being the JVM, or? |
| 11:00 | justin_smith | tadni_: or the clr or javascript or whatever |
| 11:00 | justin_smith | but usually that means the jvm |
| 11:02 | tadni_ | Why would it being dependent on x,y,z be relevant to a new user? |
| 11:03 | justin_smith | tadni_ it's not just that it relies on the jvm, but parts of the language are driven not by the logic of the language, but that of the jvm |
| 11:03 | justin_smith | whereas ie. racket would be more abstract |
| 11:03 | justin_smith | (and conceptually simpler) |
| 11:03 | tadni_ | Ah, well that stinks a bit. |
| 11:03 | justin_smith | tadni_: it means clojure can be more pragmatic, and perform better. And it means racket is easier to learn. |
| 11:04 | justin_smith | for example in jvm clojure it is a priority that you should be able to call clojure from java programs |
| 11:04 | tadni_ | Ah. |
| 11:05 | justin_smith | so this limits the way certain things in clojure are designed (and makes clojure more powerful than it would be otherwise) |
| 11:06 | justin_smith | to go into more detail - clojure fn is a callable and runnable object |
| 11:07 | justin_smith | eww... elisp makes similar concessions - jut to c instead of the jvm |
| 11:07 | tadni_ | Meh, it's not something you actively have to deal with though. |
| 11:08 | justin_smith | it's a limited and sloppily designed language compared to racket or clojure |
| 11:09 | justin_smith | I write elisp, because I like emacs and use it all the time, but I would not recommend it as a first language - if the choices are really elisp and clojure pick clojure, but I think racket scheme is an ideal first language |
| 11:09 | tadni_ | Its still practical and relevant to my interests though. I use Emacs as my daily driver, and would love to be able to hack it. |
| 11:10 | justin_smith | it also lacks namespaces, and poorly written elisp will segfault and crash your emacs (be ready to have two emacs processes running- one for writing code and the other for testing it) |
| 11:10 | tadni_ | By no means, is it even in the top 10 of "starter" friendly langs though, yeah. |
| 11:12 | justin_smith | elisp does have good tooling integration inside emacs though, including a nice step debugger |
| 11:12 | justin_smith | which is more than we can say for clojure |
| 11:12 | justin_smith | but racket has much more for learning support than either |
| 11:12 | tadni_ | I was considering Guile, but until Guilemacs is a drop-in replacement, such a thing is not all too relevant to me yet. But at that point, I'd just go through SICP. |
| 11:13 | justin_smith | racket is much more similar to clojure than guile is |
| 11:13 | justin_smith | (in the good ways) |
| 11:13 | tadni_ | Can I get a brief list of how-so? |
| 11:14 | justin_smith | immutible datatypes, reference types |
| 11:14 | justin_smith | direct support for immutible hash-maps and vectors |
| 11:15 | justin_smith | also, racket supports literal immutible hash-tables (but the syntax is much uglier than for clojure) |
| 11:16 | tadni_ | Racket is no-longer a "scheme" right? |
| 11:16 | justin_smith | it has scheme compatibility as an option, but is a superset |
| 11:16 | tadni_ | Ah, okay. |
| 11:17 | justin_smith | I'm a gnu fan also, and have written much more guile code than racket code, but racket is much cleaner, and is directly designed for learning |
| 11:18 | justin_smith | it supports "dialects" that let you pick feature sets for a given program |
| 11:18 | tadni_ | Yeah, I've noticed. If I already wasn't on such a guided path, thanks to Emacs... I'm sure I'd be doing Racket. |
| 11:19 | justin_smith | also, most elisp code is in no way functional |
| 11:20 | justin_smith | not to say you can't do fp in elisp, but I don't think immutible datatypes even exist in elisp |
| 11:20 | tadni_ | Yeah, I've noticed. FP was one of the big appeals of Clojure that possibly would have swayed me off ELisp. |
| 11:21 | justin_smith | lol - my google search for "elisp immutible data structures" is mostly hits for the #clojure chat logs |
| 11:21 | tadni_ | :-) |
| 11:22 | justin_smith | I'll reiterate though, if clojure and elisp are your final contenders, and you will consider no others, pick clojure first |
| 11:22 | justin_smith | (or ignore me and do whatever the hell you like, of course :)) |
| 11:25 | tadni_ | The issues there is, is there any introductory level books for clj? Emacs actually ships with a general intro using Elisp. That is obviously a big benefit to a language, when you have a very very rudimentary understanding of basic comp sci topics and a language has a solid introduction to it. :-P |
| 11:26 | justin_smith | http://www.braveclojure.com/ |
| 11:26 | justin_smith | http://aphyr.com/posts/301-clojure-from-the-ground-up-welcome |
| 11:26 | justin_smith | ~books |
| 11:26 | clojurebot | books is http://clojurebook.com/ http://joyofclojure.com/ |
| 11:28 | technoma` | tadni_: elisp is kind of a rubbish language, but it's ridiculously practical; it's basically how I learned lisp. |
| 11:28 | technoma` | in terms of keeping your interest, practicality beats purity any day |
| 11:30 | tadni_ | That's pretty much my mindset. I actually want to feel like I'm doing something practical and not busy work while I learn. I have no delisuions that Elisp is a great lisp, but calculating how much I use Emacs, it certainly is the most practical. |
| 11:30 | technoma` | hm; that sounds harsher than I meant. it's rubbish compared to some other lisps, but it's a lot nicer than most mainstream languages. |
| 11:32 | tadni_ | Justin_smith: Those texts all seem to assume prior programming experience though, to which I'm inept. |
| 11:32 | justin_smith | tadni_: oh, I thought clojure from the ground up was more introductory than all that |
| 11:33 | justin_smith | "Let’s write a simple program. The simplest, in fact. Type “nil”, and hit enter." |
| 11:34 | justin_smith | or did it lose you with the tooling stuff that precedes that? |
| 11:34 | tadni_ | Ah, that was the only link of the 4 I missed. |
| 11:34 | tadni_ | I look into it, thanks. |
| 11:38 | tadni_ | Oh cool, clj has docstrings. |
| 11:38 | justin_smith | (doc doc) |
| 11:38 | clojurebot | "([name]); Prints documentation for a var or special form given its name" |
| 11:39 | TEttinger | (doc clojure.string/join) |
| 11:39 | clojurebot | "([coll] [separator coll]); Returns a string of all elements in coll, as returned by (seq coll), separated by an optional separator." |
| 11:39 | actionshrimp | ,(+ 99 98) |
| 11:39 | clojurebot | 197 |
| 11:40 | TEttinger | ,(+ 20r99 20r98) |
| 11:40 | clojurebot | 377 |
| 12:03 | puredanger | tadni_: a while back I collected some resources at http://clojure.org/getting_started |
| 12:03 | puredanger | would be happy to add appropriate things there if others have suggestions |
| 12:05 | justin_smith | puredanger: maybe grimoir should be on there too |
| 12:05 | puredanger | was just adding that :) |
| 12:05 | justin_smith | http://grimoire.arrdem.com/ oh, good |
| 12:07 | josiah42 | Ok, I was waiting around to make sure I wasn't interrupting any discussion. |
| 12:08 | josiah42 | I'm an experienced developer new to Clojure. I've been reading a lot but I think I just need to talk to an experienced developer. |
| 12:08 | justin_smith | josiah42: there's a number of us here, what's up? |
| 12:09 | josiah42 | Does someone have a simple <100 lines project that demonstrates something that Clojure is just really good at. The books claim it's expressive, but I come from Python, so I'm not actually seeing that much of a change in density of meaning |
| 12:10 | cbp | well there's the old ant simulation program.. |
| 12:10 | puredanger | justin_smith: added Grimoire and CrossClj |
| 12:10 | josiah42 | I think I understand the basic justification for prefix notation and parens and all, but I keep coming back to "So what?" Can you give me a really solid example of where this shines? |
| 12:10 | technoma` | https://github.com/technomancy/radagast/blob/master/src/radagast/coverage.clj I don't think you could do this in python in under a 100 lines |
| 12:11 | justin_smith | I like how straightforward svg maps to clojure in analemma https://github.com/liebke/analemma/blob/master/src/analemma/svg.clj |
| 12:12 | justin_smith | or, I should say, clojure maps to svg |
| 12:13 | justin_smith | https://github.com/liebke/analemma main repo page shows how straightforward that is to use |
| 12:16 | josiah42 | cbp, could you link to the ant simulation? |
| 12:16 | dnolen_ | josiah42: Python is pretty expressive at a basic level, there's not going to be a huge gain on just that axis |
| 12:17 | josiah42 | dnolen_: then what would you consider Clojure's main gain over Python? |
| 12:17 | dnolen_ | josiah42: big advantage of prefix notation is simple macros, core.async is a good example of the power of this - Clojure does not have yield but you can add it via macros |
| 12:18 | dnolen_ | josiah42: concurrency is a huge one - once you have immutability going back is a bummer |
| 12:18 | dnolen_ | but that takes some time to appreciate |
| 12:18 | josiah42 | are macros specifically for DSL applications, or just in general... or is every Clojure a DSL? |
| 12:18 | cbp | $google clojure ants demo |
| 12:18 | lazybot | [Clojure ant sim from Rich Hickey - Gists - GitHub] https://gist.github.com/1093917 |
| 12:18 | technoma` | most of the high-density examples you could look at require context to be appreciated |
| 12:19 | technoma` | like lots of people love juxt, but from the perspective of python you just wouldn't know what to do with it |
| 12:19 | dnolen_ | josiah42: macros are useful for DSLs yes but only relaly in well considered cases |
| 12:19 | justin_smith | golfscript can do the same thing as clojure or python in fewer characters, but is useless for anything other than being succinct |
| 12:19 | cbp | josiah42: there's a talk where that program was showed. it was clojure for java programmers or something |
| 12:19 | TEttinger | the seq abstraction takes time to "get," but it really saves time once you start treating all collections as seqs |
| 12:22 | justin_smith | also, laziness often makes code easier to read and write |
| 12:22 | josiah42 | Okay, thanks for the examples I will return to meditating on the code. |
| 12:40 | dnolen_ | Bronsa: the patch looks mostly good but note (js/console.log ...) is perfectly fine |
| 12:40 | dnolen_ | same for (set! foo.bar.baz ...) |
| 12:41 | dnolen_ | where foo is something (not a namespace of course) |
| 12:44 | CookedGryphon | I upgraded cider and now I'm having trouble getting it running again |
| 12:44 | CookedGryphon | says it can't find wrap-apropos |
| 12:44 | CookedGryphon | but lein pprint shows the dependency on cider/cider-nrepl |
| 12:44 | CookedGryphon | so I don't know why it can't find it |
| 12:45 | CookedGryphon | version 0.7.0 |
| 12:54 | Bronsa | dnolen_: I know about js/console.log, but I figured since we already have a syntax for field access, we might aswell be consistent and use it where possible |
| 12:55 | dnolen_ | Bronsa: just making sure it's clear what is legal, people are doing both of the above and it is perfectly legitimate CLJS |
| 12:56 | Bronsa | dnolen_: dnolen_: about (set! foo.bar.baz ..) does this also mean that foo.bar.baz is legal or only inside a set!? |
| 12:56 | dnolen_ | Bronsa: foo.bar.baz is always legal |
| 12:56 | dnolen_ | Bronsa: unless I hear otherwise from Rich, that logic has been in place since the very beginning |
| 12:57 | Bronsa | dnolen_: I'm not too excited about that TBH, we can write foo.bar.baz as (.. js/foo -bar -baz) without requiring different sym resolution rules than clojure |
| 12:58 | dnolen_ | Bronsa: got nothing to do w/ being excited orn ot |
| 12:58 | dnolen_ | or not |
| 12:58 | dnolen_ | 3 years it's been allowed |
| 12:58 | Bronsa | sure, I understand |
| 13:02 | Bronsa | dnolen_: btw additional benefit of using (.-EMPTY PersistentVector) over cljs.core.PersistentVector.EMPTY is that the former can warn you in case you've got a typo in the type name :) |
| 13:03 | dnolen_ | yeah cljs.core.PersistentVector.EMPTY is def wrong |
| 13:03 | dnolen_ | cljs.core/PersistentVector.EMPTY is fine |
| 13:03 | dnolen_ | but yes that is a nice benefit |
| 13:06 | Bronsa | dnolen_: so, foo.bar is allowed, only with foo being a Var or can foo be undefined too? |
| 13:07 | dnolen_ | Bronsa: no foo needs to be var/local |
| 13:07 | Bronsa | the current impl allows for the latter |
| 13:07 | Bronsa | ah ok |
| 13:07 | dnolen_ | the later is a oversight |
| 13:07 | Bronsa | dnolen_: wrt foo being a local, I'm not sure if you're aware but it behaves in a funny way |
| 13:07 | Bronsa | one sec |
| 13:07 | Bronsa | probably a bug |
| 13:07 | dnolen_ | likely |
| 13:08 | Bronsa | ClojureScript:cljs.user> (let [a 1 ab 2] a.b) |
| 13:08 | Bronsa | 2 |
| 13:08 | Bronsa | there might be a (symbol (str pre post)) that should have been (symbol pre post) |
| 13:10 | Bronsa | https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/clj/cljs/analyzer.clj#L339 |
| 13:11 | Bronsa | uhm I guess it's actually https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/clj/cljs/analyzer.clj#L336 |
| 13:18 | josiah42 | how would you switch which function you were using based on a criteria? I was thinking (apply (which-function? criteria) (generate-data)) |
| 13:21 | justin_smith | josiah42: you may want multimethods |
| 13:32 | dnolen_ | Bronsa: can you make a ticket for that? |
| 13:33 | Bronsa | dnolen_: sure |
| 13:38 | dnolen_ | Bronsa: thanks much |
| 13:39 | Bronsa | dnolen_: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-835 |
| 13:39 | TEttinger | josiah42, another way is to just have a map of criteria for keys, functions for values |
| 13:40 | TEttinger | ,(map ({:yes inc :no dec :maybe identity} :yes) [1 2 3]) |
| 13:40 | clojurebot | (2 3 4) |
| 13:49 | noncom|2 | anyone using aleph? there is a great delay upon (require aleph.core) is there any workaround ? |
| 13:52 | justin_smith | noncom|2: ambrosebs may be able to advise you on that |
| 13:53 | ambrosebs | justin_smith: does aleph use core.typed? |
| 13:53 | justin_smith | ambrosebs: oh, I may have conflated you with someone else I think, sorry |
| 13:53 | ambrosebs | justin_smith: np |
| 13:53 | justin_smith | I meant ztellman (who seems not to be online) |
| 13:56 | justin_smith | noncom|2: at least in prod you can make an uberjar, which decreases the startup time of the new process. This doesn't help at dev time of course. |
| 13:56 | noncom|2 | oh well.. |
| 13:57 | noncom|2 | yes, zach could probably shed some light.. but afaic this question was rised many times and there was some solution proposed.. |
| 13:57 | noncom|2 | well, i guess that this delay is unavoidable if i am to use aleph |
| 13:57 | noncom|2 | afaik it comes from netty anyway |
| 13:57 | justin_smith | yeah, not much that can be done about that if that is the case |
| 13:58 | rlb | hmm, if I'm not just doing it wrong, I never noticed that you can't use :as with defn, i.e. (defn foo [x & rest :as all] ...) |
| 13:58 | amalloy | noncom|2: aleph and lamina are just gigantic. there's not much to be done |
| 13:58 | justin_smith | rlb: yeah, you can use :as in any destructuring |
| 13:58 | TEttinger | there's drip for repls if that's the issue |
| 13:58 | amalloy | ztellman is hoping to quit working on lamina in favor of his new thing "manifolds" |
| 13:59 | justin_smith | rlb: so you are doing it wrong |
| 13:59 | noncom|2 | is manifolds a lib superior and substituting lamina ? |
| 13:59 | justin_smith | rlb (defn foo [x & [a b :as rest]] ...) would bind a and b as the first two values in rest |
| 14:00 | amalloy | noncom|2: he hopes for it to be simpler, and to be somewhere in between lamina and core.async |
| 14:00 | TEttinger | and of course you still can pass more in that coll |
| 14:00 | justin_smith | rlb: but :as at the top level is out of place, because the top level param declaration is not a destructuring, :as needs to be inside a destructuring |
| 14:00 | amalloy | it's not done, but you can read about it at https://github.com/ztellman/manifold if you're interested |
| 14:00 | rlb | justin_smith: ok, thanks -- was just reasoning from (let [[a & rest :as all] [1 2 3]] all) |
| 14:01 | rlb | which does work |
| 14:01 | justin_smith | rlb: yeah, but your first example is the equivalent of (let [a (first args) b (rest args) :as rest] ...) which is obviously wrong |
| 14:02 | noncom|2 | amalloy: thank you, i will. it is good to know. i wish there was some digest for all clojure libs and their relationships. clojurewerkz does that a bit, but the concept could be improved |
| 14:02 | justin_smith | rlb: (defn foo [[a & b :as all-args]] ...) works |
| 14:02 | justin_smith | err |
| 14:02 | rlb | ok, right -- but so that does mean that you can't actually use :as with defn to bind the whole arglist |
| 14:02 | justin_smith | rlb: (defn foo [& [a & b :as all-args]] ...) I mean |
| 14:02 | rlb | (as you can with let) |
| 14:02 | rlb | oh ahh I see |
| 14:03 | rlb | I forgot about that. |
| 14:03 | rlb | thanks |
| 14:04 | amalloy | noncom|2: it's an insoluble problem: things change too fast |
| 14:04 | amalloy | you can't automate it either, because who knows when things are actually ready for public consumption |
| 14:05 | noncom|2 | amalloy: yes.. however authors could take care of updating their parts. github readmes are often fine, but relationships problem can take time to research |
| 14:05 | noncom|2 | sure that's just an idea.. but that would be cool to have this sometimes |
| 14:05 | noncom|2 | and a sole human-browsable digest/library of libraries |
| 14:06 | noncom|2 | sounds a bit utopian though |
| 14:06 | noncom|2 | at least today |
| 14:06 | amalloy | or dystopian, if you're a library author |
| 14:07 | mdrogalis | Transducer. That's an interesting word. |
| 14:07 | puredanger | http://blog.cognitect.com/blog/2014/8/6/transducers-are-coming |
| 14:07 | mdrogalis | Context: http://blog.cognitect.com/blog/2014/8/6/transducers-are-coming |
| 14:07 | puredanger | jinx! |
| 14:07 | mdrogalis | Ha. |
| 14:08 | mdrogalis | Pretty neat stuff. I always an intuition that copying those transformation functions wasn't such a good idea. |
| 14:08 | rlb | justin_smith: ...and actually better for my particular context (defn foo [w x & [y z & rest]] ...). Thanks again. |
| 14:10 | justin_smith | rlb: np |
| 14:10 | puredanger | mdrogalis: bits and hitting clojure core and core.async repos now |
| 14:10 | puredanger | s/and/are/ |
| 14:11 | hiredman | our big project at work started in 2009, and deps rarely change on it, so I would think that making authors update some document about project relationships is optimizing for starting new projects, which would just make the problem of keeping track of all the new projects worse |
| 14:12 | mdrogalis | puredanger: I know Rich is kind of the face of Clojure, and I wonder how much of what's been going on with Cog lately is -mostly- him.. But from my perspective, the guy is on fire right now. |
| 14:12 | mdrogalis | More than usual! |
| 14:16 | amalloy | transducers look nice; i'm glad it's less of a walled-garden kind of thing than happened with reducers, which are kinda separate from everything and most libraries don't support |
| 14:16 | amalloy | even if rich gets bored of transducers, the additions they bring to the clojure.core api look fairly self-service |
| 14:16 | puredanger | ironically, reducers actually don't support transducers (yet) :) |
| 14:17 | mdrogalis | Heh |
| 14:17 | technomancy | I like how you can pretend map is curried |
| 14:17 | puredanger | but one of the big benefits of transducers is that they let us (the royal us) implement a transformation once, then use it in many ways |
| 14:17 | puredanger | clojure 1.7.0-alpha1 is in the chute so there will be a hard release for people to try |
| 14:18 | mdrogalis | Sweet. |
| 14:18 | amalloy | technomancy: i'm going to miss the arity exceptions i get from attempting to transpose an empty vector |
| 14:18 | puredanger | async coming soon |
| 14:19 | Bronsa | uh so (conj) now returns [] |
| 14:20 | Bronsa | that seems a bit off given the polymorphic nature of conj |
| 14:20 | puredanger | rich went back and forth on that |
| 14:20 | puredanger | you can use into to have more choice |
| 14:21 | puredanger | in the end, having conj do something mostly useful won out |
| 14:21 | amalloy | Bronsa: probably for something like (reduce conj nil) |
| 14:22 | amalloy | that's a scenario where you might accidentally call conj with no args, and [] is as good a result as any |
| 14:22 | mdrogalis | amalloy: Yeah, true. |
| 14:22 | technomancy | I always thought of lists as being the most fundamental type |
| 14:24 | ToBeReplaced | my first guess would have been (conj) returns nil... ::shrug:: |
| 14:24 | amalloy | i'm not sure that's relevant, technomancy? |
| 14:25 | hyPiRion | Hrm, (whatever, input -> whatever) looks rather ambiguous, no? I first thought it was a tuple with `whatever` and `input -> whatever`, but it's actually a 2-ary function |
| 14:25 | hyPiRion | Or perhaps I'm just too used to the OCaml/Haskell notation. |
| 14:25 | cespare | when you define a record Foo, the generated function map->Foo calls Foo/create. Where is create defined? I've been unable to locate in clojure source |
| 14:26 | amalloy | hyPiRion: this looks a lot like the core.typed notation. doesn't seem too confusing, given that you're already attempting to write type signatures in a dynamically-typed language |
| 14:27 | Bronsa | cespare: it's a generated in the compiler |
| 14:27 | hyPiRion | amalloy: I've never used core.typed notation, but sure. How would you visualise a tuple with `w` and `i -> w` in it on that form though? |
| 14:27 | amalloy | (w, (i -> w)) |
| 14:27 | cespare | Bronsa: yes, where? |
| 14:28 | cespare | Bronsa: it's horrendously slow, trying to figure out why. |
| 14:28 | amalloy | it's lisp: parens fix everything |
| 14:28 | ambrosebs | cespare, Bronsa: here? https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Compiler.java#L7686 |
| 14:29 | Bronsa | ambrosebs: yeah |
| 14:29 | cespare | ambrosebs: thanks! |
| 14:30 | Bronsa | hah I read that as complecting at first sight https://github.com/clojure/clojure/compare/c9e70649d2...1280c5c2d2#diff-d951a5cd799ae841ffcc6b45598180dbR6440 |
| 14:30 | hyPiRion | amalloy: ah. Well, it confused me at least, and I guess it'll confuse readers familiar with curried langs |
| 14:31 | amalloy | sure. i'm familiar with haskell, and i had to squint a bit |
| 14:33 | ambrosebs | I was confused for a bit at the function syntax too. |
| 14:33 | ambrosebs | but I didn't really register what the types represented (first arg to reduce), so I didn't know what to expect. |
| 14:36 | SegFaultAX | Has/does anyone here work on an event sourcing/CQRS system? |
| 14:42 | ambrosebs | how do composed transducers manage to use 1 lazy seq in the (sequence xform data) example? |
| 14:43 | dnolen_ | ambrosebs: because laziness is not part of the transformer |
| 14:44 | amalloy | ambrosebs: it's the difference between (map f (map g coll)) and (map (comp f g) coll) |
| 14:44 | dnolen_ | transducer I suppose I mean |
| 14:44 | puredanger | each step of xform modifies a function but does not *do* anything. the lazy seq is only built when you call sequence. same story as clojure.core.reducers/reduce really |
| 14:46 | ambrosebs | amalloy's explanation is what I expected. |
| 14:46 | ambrosebs | puredanger: I don't understand your first sentence |
| 14:47 | puredanger | "map" and "filter |
| 14:47 | puredanger | " are building a recipe - they don't actually do anything wrt the data |
| 14:48 | puredanger | sequence then applies the combined recipe lazily over the input |
| 14:48 | puredanger | so there is no intermediate "mapped" sequence |
| 14:49 | puredanger | I'm really trying to say the same thing as amalloy but probably not as well :) |
| 14:50 | amalloy | puredanger: practice makes pithy |
| 14:50 | hiredman | so who is going to rewrite for to use these things? |
| 14:51 | amalloy | shouldn't be too hard, right? it's just a macro that's larger than some basic webservers |
| 14:51 | hiredman | can we deprecate chunked seqs yet? |
| 14:52 | ambrosebs | puredanger: haha, "what amalloy said" works |
| 14:52 | puredanger | a couple of us were discussing whether chunking could also be added ala carte now :) |
| 14:53 | hiredman | what is the motivation for adding chunking ala carte? |
| 14:53 | puredanger | we were just musing that it could perhaps be done that way |
| 14:55 | hiredman | my understanding of the motivation for chunking was performance, transducers (even reducers) off a way to get rid of the seq overhead, so it would be nice to get intuitive behaviour for seqs back |
| 14:55 | ambrosebs | I was wondering how (comp (map inc) (filter even?)) can be intelligently combined, but I guess it's HOF trickery that I'll grok once I assign types to it. |
| 14:57 | amalloy | well, let's see. (map inc) -> (fn [f] (fn [acc x] (f acc (inc x)))), i think |
| 14:58 | amalloy | and (filter even?) -> (fn [f] (fn [acc x] (if (even? x) (f acc x) acc))) |
| 14:59 | amalloy | both of those take as input a reducing function (a -> b -> a) and return a new reducing function, so comping them should work fine |
| 14:59 | amalloy | it's really just the same thing that makes reducers tick |
| 15:00 | puredanger | right |
| 15:00 | ambrosebs | so (map inc) isn't partial application |
| 15:01 | gfredericks | I can't tell if this is going to make clojure harder to explain or not |
| 15:01 | amalloy | right, it's different from (partial map inc) |
| 15:01 | technomancy | oh |
| 15:01 | mdrogalis | gfredericks: Yeah, heh |
| 15:01 | josiah42 | I'm new to Clojure and I'm trying to find a prototyping workflow that's faster from problem to solution than working in IPython Notebook. Is Clojure with LightTable going to be the best match for that goal? |
| 15:01 | technomancy | gfredericks: well with protocols and defrecords, I just always say "ignore that stuff; you'll know when you need it" |
| 15:02 | technomancy | I don't see this being much different |
| 15:02 | gfredericks | technomancy: harder to ignore when it's another arity on your normal functions ;-) |
| 15:02 | technomancy | hm; true |
| 15:02 | amalloy | technomancy: you're usually wrong, though: people "know" they need it the first time they write a program, because omg objects |
| 15:02 | technomancy | amalloy: argh. sad but true. |
| 15:03 | hiredman | transducers/reducers are also how we should be doing io |
| 15:03 | mdrogalis | hiredman: Explain? |
| 15:03 | hiredman | mdrogalis: http://ce2144dc-f7c9-4f54-8fb6-7321a4c318db.s3.amazonaws.com/reducers.html |
| 15:04 | Jaood | technomancy: but they need to know about them to know when they will need it |
| 15:04 | mdrogalis | hiredman: Ty |
| 15:05 | technomancy | Jaood: "One day, in the far future, you might find yourself in a position where you're thinking 'There is nothing in Clojure that will allow me to write this code with the performance I require'. On that day, remember my words, and turn your gaze to defprotocol. But only then." |
| 15:05 | bridgethillyer | josiah42: I’m not going to touch “best match”, but Light Table does give you some of what you are looking for in a nice package. |
| 15:06 | bridgethillyer | josiah42: have you looked at Gorilla REPL? |
| 15:06 | martintrojer | So... transducers |
| 15:07 | martintrojer | reducers taken to their logical conclusion? |
| 15:07 | gfredericks | technomancy: I still like how protocols group extensible functions together |
| 15:07 | gfredericks | so...there. |
| 15:08 | hiredman | snap |
| 15:08 | gfredericks | (defmacro defmultis ...) |
| 15:08 | gfredericks | (defmacro defmethods ...) |
| 15:08 | gfredericks | "Like a protocol but is a bunch of multimethods." |
| 15:08 | josiah42 | bridgethillyer: I was just looking at the intro video for Gorilla REPL. But that doesn't really address if Clojure can be faster at expressing a complete solution than Python. I suppose a lot of that speed has to do with Libraries. So JVM is definitely a plus. |
| 15:09 | amalloy | technomancy: man, i would immediately look up defrecord. "oh sweet, it's the best-performing thing in all of clojure? gotta figure that out, stat" |
| 15:09 | Jaood | technomancy: we should put that somewhere :) but really, many libs use them no? so you need to know them to read others people code |
| 15:10 | ambrosebs | has the feature expressions conversation progressed lately? |
| 15:10 | gfredericks | ambrosebs: turns out transducers can do that too |
| 15:10 | amalloy | haha |
| 15:11 | arrdem | (inc gfredericks) |
| 15:11 | lazybot | ⇒ 79 |
| 15:11 | Bronsa | lol |
| 15:11 | Bronsa | (inc gfredericks) |
| 15:11 | lazybot | ⇒ 80 |
| 15:11 | amalloy | but can they see the taste of cinnamon toast crunch, gfredericks? |
| 15:11 | gfredericks | kid tested, rhickey approved |
| 15:12 | hiredman | ambrosebs: puredanger has been putting patches on related tickets, when I complained about the way it was done he said it is for evaluation only |
| 15:12 | Bronsa | ambrosebs: puredanger has updated the tickets for clj/cljs/tools.reader with patches for CL style conditional reading but AFAIK nothing has been decided yet |
| 15:12 | hiredman | I don't really know what that means |
| 15:12 | puredanger | ambrosebs: I have been working on it a bit. there is a trio of patches for clj, cljs, tools.reader that implements CL style feature expressions |
| 15:12 | ambrosebs | ok |
| 15:13 | Bronsa | the jinx is strong in here |
| 15:13 | hiredman | we need a random back off |
| 15:13 | technomancy | amalloy: I would imagine it like the Lion King. |
| 15:14 | amalloy | that's what i thought of too |
| 15:14 | puredanger | there has also been a lot of discussion about a way to support a more open style of platform-swappable namespaces |
| 15:15 | puredanger | feature expressions solves some problems but not all (open system) or without tradeoffs |
| 15:15 | technomancy | amalloy: "One day, Simba, all of this will be yours." / "What about deftype?" / "That's beyond our borders. You must never call that, Simba." |
| 15:16 | puredanger | awww, deftype is where all the fun is :) |
| 15:16 | TimMc | says pure danger |
| 15:16 | arrdem | lol |
| 15:16 | puredanger | mwuahahaha |
| 15:16 | puredanger | (see: all Alioth programs) |
| 15:17 | hiredman | puredanger: the compiler just needs some love |
| 15:17 | hiredman | (to propograte types across nested loops) |
| 15:17 | puredanger | what doesn't? welcome to computers. |
| 15:17 | puredanger | ;) |
| 15:18 | puredanger | hiredman: I really appreciate the patch work too btw. it is … epic :) |
| 15:18 | hiredman | speaking of, I wanted to try andy's benchmark stuff with my patch applied, and woa boy |
| 15:18 | hiredman | that repo is a pile of scary |
| 15:18 | puredanger | you mean test.benchmark or something else? |
| 15:18 | gfredericks | technomancy: the alternate-arities approach also means that the newbs can't read their docstrings without worrying about the thing |
| 15:19 | hiredman | puredanger: https://github.com/jafingerhut/clojure-benchmarks |
| 15:19 | puredanger | oh that :) |
| 15:19 | puredanger | best just to ask Andy to run them for you :) |
| 15:20 | gfredericks | "clojure-benchmarks is a library for Andy to run benchmarking stuff" |
| 15:20 | trptcolin | lol @ option 1: "Download", option 2: "Download securely" |
| 15:20 | puredanger | :) |
| 15:21 | Bronsa | speaking of Andy, here comes the stream of mail for broken patches on JIRA because of the recent changes |
| 15:22 | hiredman | puredanger: I was hoping to get those in to 1.7 but I guess with an alpha landing it will have to wait to 1.8? |
| 15:22 | puredanger | he is a machine! |
| 15:22 | trptcolin | there's something i'm not getting about the order of execution of composed fns w/ transducers. i know there's got to be a good reason it seems backwards: https://gist.github.com/trptcolin/12f43c4b9c3cd51c9519 |
| 15:22 | puredanger | hiredman: no, that was the intent of my note at the bottom of the release email |
| 15:22 | hiredman | oh, I should go read that then |
| 15:23 | puredanger | hiredman: it is truly undecided |
| 15:23 | puredanger | we have many patches "done" and many more screenable and several other in-work features |
| 15:24 | puredanger | some of that stuff will go into 1.7, just not sure what will and what will be pushed to next release yet |
| 15:24 | amalloy | trptcolin: (partial inc)??? you're a monster |
| 15:24 | trptcolin | lol whoops, that used to be something else |
| 15:24 | hiredman | puredanger: cool |
| 15:24 | puredanger | hiredman: there are many things in those lists I feel strongly should go in sooner rather than later |
| 15:25 | puredanger | we thought it was important to cut an alpha1 now though so people could try transducers more easily |
| 15:25 | gfredericks | I just got an andy email |
| 15:25 | hiredman | puredanger: and thank you for responding to things :) |
| 15:25 | puredanger | trying... |
| 15:25 | puredanger | I really do notice and appreciate the work |
| 15:25 | ambrosebs | puredanger: excited about the feature expression patches |
| 15:25 | ambrosebs | look nice |
| 15:26 | Bronsa | ambrosebs: I feel like hiredman is going to slay out the next person that +1's those patches |
| 15:27 | ambrosebs | I am aware |
| 15:27 | hiredman | http://www.bestforfilm.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Buffy-1.jpg |
| 15:28 | amalloy | trptcolin: it is weird, isn't it. it kinda has to be that way, though, given the signature of (map f): when you call (map square), you get a transducer that squares things; then you call (map inc) on that, and you get a transducer that adds one before delegating to its underlying (squaring) transducer |
| 15:28 | jonasen | Bronsa: "replaced all instances of (.foo js/Math ..) with (Math/foo ..)"... Is this correct? There is no namespace called Math? |
| 15:28 | TEttinger | ,(partial (partial inc)) |
| 15:28 | clojurebot | #<core$inc clojure.core$inc@19666a> |
| 15:28 | puredanger | hiredman: I may ask to do a call with you to go over 701 (is it bad I have that memorized?), etc when I finally get to review them. probably far more efficient than me doing it alone |
| 15:28 | hiredman | puredanger: sure |
| 15:29 | Bronsa | jonasen: it's special cased in the cljs analyzer |
| 15:29 | jonasen | ah, ok |
| 15:29 | Bronsa | jonasen: also goog |
| 15:30 | trptcolin | amalloy: ok, i need to let this stew, but sounds similar to the same confusion i originally had using -> with ring middleware and trying to reason about what executes first |
| 15:30 | amalloy | (map inc) could be defined as (fn [f] (fn [acc x] (inc (f acc x)))), instead of as (fn [f] (fn [acc x] (f acc (inc x)))), but that would be pretty weird: you want to be mapping over the inputs, not over the results of the reducer function |
| 15:30 | jonasen | Bronsa: then it makes total sense! Carry on :) |
| 15:32 | arrdem | damnit andyf y u no on IRC |
| 15:32 | Bronsa | arrdem: he's busy doing his JIRA things ATM |
| 15:32 | cespare | how can you 'forward declare' a record? I want to do this: (defrecord A [^B b]) (defrecord B [^A a]) |
| 15:33 | arrdem | Bronsa: right which is why I wish he was on IRC :P |
| 15:33 | amalloy | cespare: don't. the hinting there doesn't even matter anyway |
| 15:33 | cespare | amalloy: it does |
| 15:33 | cespare | for us |
| 15:33 | llasram | cespare: If it's just documentation, could you not just use a comment? |
| 15:34 | cespare | llasram: it's not; we have macros that use that information |
| 15:35 | amalloy | cespare: if it's for your macros, and not for the clojure compiler, put it in a different place in the metadata: (defrecord A [^{:type 'B}] ...) or something |
| 15:37 | amalloy | ^:tag is for the compiler to figure out what bytecode to emit |
| 15:39 | Bronsa | puredanger: FYI re: CLJ-701 I've indipendently implemented a similar approach to the one used by hiredman's patch for t.e.j and I can confirm I haven't seen any issue with hoisting the loop bodies |
| 15:40 | puredanger | cool |
| 15:41 | Bronsa | if anything, it's not clear to me why the hoisting doesn't happen for loops in statement context |
| 15:44 | hiredman | Bronsa: I dunno either, I tried to extend the existing logic |
| 15:45 | Bronsa | hiredman: if I understood correctly, the fn* wrapping doesn't happen in return context because otherwise it would continue to loop, but I really don't understand why it's not done for expr context |
| 15:47 | hiredman | maybe I am mistunderstanding, I think it does happen for exprs? |
| 15:47 | Bronsa | yeah sorry, meant statement |
| 15:47 | hiredman | right |
| 15:48 | hiredman | I suspect doing the loop as a statement is simple enough bytecode to just generate inline |
| 15:48 | hiredman | just a label and jumps |
| 15:48 | BobSchack | puredanger I'm writing up a blog post on ClojureScript performance optimizations I've found while working on a Fressian port. Would it be possible to get it reviewed before I post it? I want to make sure the information I'm putting out there is accurate. |
| 15:49 | Bronsa | hiredman: it's the same for all other contexts though, modulo nil insertions/stack popping |
| 15:49 | hiredman | Bronsa: ok, I have no idea |
| 15:50 | puredanger | BobSchack: I'm sure dnolen_ could take a look at it |
| 15:51 | andyf_ | arrdem: I have been summoned! |
| 15:51 | arrdem | andyf_: lol |
| 15:51 | andyf_ | (That will almost never work, btw) |
| 15:52 | arrdem | andyf_: gonna look at the horked patch in a minute... is there something else/special I need to do to ensure that your build scripts pulled in the depended on ticket? |
| 15:52 | andyf_ | I guess I should put scary ratings on my repos for people that like cleanliness |
| 15:53 | andyf_ | arrdem: Oh, yours depends on another? My scripts aren't that fancy |
| 15:53 | arrdem | andyf_: yeah. CLJ-1489 assumes that CLJ-1488 is applied. |
| 15:55 | andyf_ | Most of the time a patch no longer applies cleanly it is because 'git am' command checks that all context lines in diff are unchanged, and fails if they are. Annoying, but true |
| 15:56 | gfredericks | yeah mine rebased with no trouble |
| 15:56 | andyf_ | arrdem: But yours is probably the depends-on-another-patch thing |
| 15:57 | dnolen_ | BobSchack: I can take a look |
| 15:57 | arrdem | andyf_: I'll update the patches in any case, just thought I'd ask 'cause I made a point to test and both were clean when submitted last. |
| 15:58 | andyf_ | arrdem: I could try implementing dependent patch testing, bit I would need to be very bored first |
| 15:58 | arrdem | andyf_: lolz |
| 15:58 | rlb | is there an idomatic way to always flush before exit? I've been just wrapping the main function with finally, but then tests won't necessarily flush, which can be confusing when you don't see error messages (for example). |
| 15:59 | rlb | (say from a command line tool) |
| 15:59 | Bronsa | core async release versions always crack me up |
| 15:59 | justin_smith | rlb: maybe define a test fixture that calls (flush) |
| 16:00 | BobSchack | dnolen_ Thanks I'm still working on it, what is the best way to send it to you? |
| 16:00 | dnolen_ | BobSchack: you can pm me or email me at my lists email |
| 16:01 | rlb | justin_smith: ok, right, suppose that should work -- (I nearly always want stdout/stderr flushed) |
| 16:01 | AeroNotix | rlb: command line applications with clojure? |
| 16:01 | puredanger | Bronsa: I have on my list to get to a saner version :) |
| 16:01 | AeroNotix | are you mad |
| 16:01 | puredanger | Bronsa: don't even ask |
| 16:02 | rlb | AeroNotix: yes -- though of course nothing that needs fast startup |
| 16:02 | AeroNotix | oh ok |
| 16:02 | Bronsa | just when you think the version is going to end, there's another qualifier |
| 16:03 | arrdem | andyf_: if you're just using bash I'd be happy to implement an @andyf{ @requires{}} syntax :P |
| 16:06 | andyf_ | arrdem: My clj-prescreen repo that implements this stuff probably should have a scariness rating of 4 out of 10. You have been warned. |
| 16:06 | andyf_ | Clojure-benchmarks is up around 8 |
| 16:09 | numberten | is there a resource that just lists all the things in clojure that have ifn implementations? |
| 16:10 | technomancy | doesn't clojure flush on newlines by default? |
| 16:10 | devn | hello transducers |
| 16:11 | devn | i wondered when someone was going to bring up rich's core.async commits |
| 16:11 | devn | (recent commits that is) |
| 16:11 | andyf_ | technomancy: On println, not on new lines |
| 16:11 | technomancy | andyf_: ah, gotcha |
| 16:12 | technomancy | rlb: perhaps "use println" is the simplest answer |
| 16:12 | Bronsa | andyf_: FYI I'm working on a "solution" for TANAL-24, https://github.com/clojure/tools.analyzer.jvm/commit/94fd8e1759819d5547870bde14950d7ecd842f40 |
| 16:12 | hyPiRion | and only if *flush-on-newline |
| 16:12 | hyPiRion | is set. |
| 16:12 | rlb | not on prn either |
| 16:13 | rlb | hmm, wait -- what was I using in this case... |
| 16:13 | devn | What if like... clojure.pprint were rewritten... |
| 16:13 | technomancy | prn seems like an odd choice for error messages =) |
| 16:13 | devn | *mind explodes* |
| 16:13 | hyPiRion | devn: like fipp? |
| 16:13 | rlb | ok, I was using print, not println |
| 16:13 | devn | hyPiRion: yeah, except get it into core |
| 16:13 | Bronsa | andyf_: hopefully eastwood will benefit from this, default t.a.j behaviour will be to throw, tools like eastwood could bind the handler to ignore the wrong tag & just repor it as a warning |
| 16:14 | rlb | in any case, most of the time, I think I probably want *all* output flushed on exit |
| 16:14 | devn | cl-format is some pretty crazy clojure code |
| 16:14 | rlb | to stdout/stderr |
| 16:15 | hyPiRion | devn: just a bit of macros here and there |
| 16:15 | rlb | well -- actually -- suppose I'm really just talking about "normal stdio console behavior", so that's perhaps not "all" |
| 16:15 | hyPiRion | it's the best thing when you write it, and the worst thing when you attempt to read it |
| 16:15 | devn | hyPiRion: it seems kind of... i dont know... coupled... |
| 16:15 | hyPiRion | devn: it's just the common lisp format function? |
| 16:16 | hyPiRion | "just" |
| 16:16 | devn | haha |
| 16:16 | rlb | anyway, putting a finally on main and adding a per-ns test fixture is fine for now |
| 16:16 | technomancy | rlb: yeah, exiting with unflushed stdio buffers is just plain wrong behaviour |
| 16:17 | justin_smith | rlb: you could even have a your-project.test ns where you define that fixture, and declare its usage in each test ns |
| 16:17 | devn | hyPiRion: yeah i suppose you're right. i mean, i know you're right, but it doesn't change the fact that i want to rewrite it |
| 16:17 | rlb | technomancy: it certainly confused me back when I hit it the first time. |
| 16:17 | hyPiRion | devn: the cl-format function? Yeah, I would guess there are better ways to implement it |
| 16:17 | technomancy | rlb: that's an openjdk bug though, not a clojure one |
| 16:17 | technomancy | not that it's any consolation =) |
| 16:21 | andyf_ | Using java's PrintWriter beneath Clojure's *out* with auto flushing might be a general auto-flush solution, but I haven't tried it |
| 16:21 | hyPiRion | I digged into the java source code, and it actually flushes for any newline it sees by default. However, it's buffered with 128 chars, soo |
| 16:21 | hyPiRion | *out* just wraps System/out with an outputstreamwriter |
| 16:22 | andyf_ | Bronsa: Sounds good. Thanks for your persistence there |
| 16:22 | gfredericks | ASYNC-76 confuses me |
| 16:22 | gfredericks | does (go (/ 42 0)) not hit the default exception handler currently? |
| 16:22 | gfredericks | it seems to in my repl |
| 16:22 | gfredericks | do I need a less trivial go block? |
| 16:24 | stuartsierra | gfredericks: I think `go` blocks that don't park can execute immediately on the calling thread. |
| 16:25 | tbaldridge | the console output you see there is from the println currently in core.async. If you don't want println (and want your own exception code), you can't currently |
| 16:25 | gfredericks | kay I'll go try something better |
| 16:25 | tbaldridge | ASYNC-76 fixes that |
| 16:25 | gfredericks | tbaldridge: no this really did hit the exception handler |
| 16:25 | gfredericks | I have a custom one that logs |
| 16:25 | puredanger | stuartsierra: that shouldn't happen with thread though right? |
| 16:25 | tbaldridge | stuartsierra: that's not true in CLJ, CLJS it is, CLJ it isn't |
| 16:26 | stuartsierra | puredanger: Yes, `thread` will always run on a new thread, just like `future`. |
| 16:31 | stuartsierra | gfredericks: (go (/ 1 0)) hits my default uncaught exception handler with latest core.async |
| 16:32 | gfredericks | stuartsierra: I get the same with old core.async |
| 16:32 | gfredericks | but I just confirmed a non-trivial go block does not hit the handler |
| 16:32 | gfredericks | so I oughta upgrade |
| 16:33 | stuartsierra | There are even tests for this in core.async https://github.com/clojure/core.async/blob/b4cbabf2fdf5f9470f3dbdff46d6cb72a1f0915e/src/test/clojure/clojure/core/async/exceptions_test.clj |
| 16:33 | gfredericks | the version string "0.1.319.0-6b1aca-alpha" at first glance seems to contain two phonetic components |
| 16:33 | trptcolin | just realized that the clojure.core namespace's line count (including separate files for types, protocols, reducers, etc) is literally over 9000! |
| 16:33 | trptcolin | yessss |
| 16:33 | gfredericks | trptcolin: is that a special number? |
| 16:34 | arrdem | $google its over 9000 |
| 16:34 | lazybot | [It's Over 9000! | Know Your Meme] http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/its-over-9000 |
| 16:36 | stuartsierra | gfredericks: The exception-handling behavior of core.asnyc has changed before, so you may have been using a version that did not catch exceptions in `go` blocks. I hope that ASYNC-76 will be the default going forward. But it does say "alpha" :) |
| 16:39 | gfredericks | we had a production issue that was half-caused by the not-propogating behavior |
| 16:40 | noonian | ouch |
| 16:41 | gfredericks | I think we'd screwed up enough that the not-propogating behavior wasn't actually the cause |
| 16:42 | gfredericks | but it makes our fix not work :) |
| 16:43 | gfredericks | does anybody know where the version format 0.1.319.0-6b1aca-alpha comes from? |
| 16:43 | dnolen_ | gfredericks: git commit # + git sha |
| 16:43 | tbaldridge | the hash part is based off the sha of the commit it's based off of |
| 16:43 | gfredericks | what about the "0-"? |
| 16:44 | puredanger | actually, I just bash the keyword and tell people it's a sha |
| 16:45 | puredanger | it's created by a script at script/build/revision in the repo - <major>.<minor>.<trunk-basis>.<patch-or-0>-<sha>[-qualifier] is the format |
| 16:46 | gfredericks | I can kind of see how that might have come about |
| 16:49 | gfredericks | hm |
| 16:49 | gfredericks | latest core.async doesn't seem to propagate |
| 16:49 | tbaldridge | example code might be helpful |
| 16:50 | gfredericks | for sure |
| 16:51 | gfredericks | oh yeah nevermind my fault everything works it's all perfect |
| 16:51 | gfredericks | thanks tbaldridge & stuartsierra |
| 16:51 | boxed | is there some badge or something that you can put on a project to show that it’s both clojurescript and clojure? it’d be nice to have something more compact than writing that in text... |
| 16:52 | stuartsierra | gfredericks: you're welcome, glad to hear it works |
| 16:53 | hoverbear | So, I'm finding some documents with Monger, then doing some computation, and sending them over the wire with Chesire... However I can't figure out how to go from `monger.collection/find-maps` to `chesire/generate-string`. |
| 16:58 | bbloom | https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/2a09172e0c3285ccdf79d1dc4d399d190678b670#diff-d951a5cd799ae841ffcc6b45598180dbR82 |
| 16:58 | wagjo | I'm really super excited about this transducers thing :) Many thanks! |
| 16:58 | bbloom | glorious glorious new overloads! |
| 17:00 | gfredericks | I did not know clojure.core/sequence was even there |
| 17:00 | puredanger | bbloom: I chuckled at your irc comment last week about being able to abstract map from the sequence machinery :) |
| 17:00 | wagjo | gfredericks: its for cases when you need seq returned no matter what |
| 17:01 | puredanger | gfredericks: I said the exact same thing :) |
| 17:01 | bbloom | puredanger: i'm just so excited about 1 arity conj, where's my 1 arity assoc!? |
| 17:01 | puredanger | no one's ever happy |
| 17:01 | bbloom | :-) |
| 17:02 | gfredericks | wagjo: that's almost seq |
| 17:02 | bbloom | haha, just kidding. puredanger: this is all good stuff |
| 17:02 | boxed | 1 arity conj is ok, but update-in with an empty path, that’d be crazy! >_< |
| 17:02 | puredanger | is rolling his eyes |
| 17:03 | bbloom | puredanger: last week was i rambling about traversable in scala? |
| 17:03 | SagiCZ11 | hey guys.. whats your favorite rich hickey talk? ive seen just a couple.. (simple made easy and clojure for java programmers) |
| 17:04 | puredanger | are we there yet?, value of values, language of the system |
| 17:04 | puredanger | you gotta get the box set |
| 17:04 | puredanger | the extras are killer |
| 17:04 | arrdem | lol |
| 17:04 | puredanger | I might be getting a little punchy |
| 17:04 | arrdem | andyf_: so... more munge function changes incomming |
| 17:05 | bbloom | puredanger: while i'm predicting the future: does rich want generators to aid with defining transformer functions? |
| 17:05 | puredanger | I don't know what that means |
| 17:06 | bbloom | puredanger: there was some mention from euro clojure of using core.async internals for python-like generators inside the main clj compiler |
| 17:06 | puredanger | oh, I know what you're talking about |
| 17:06 | bbloom | which is a much nicer way to write things like mapcatting, etc |
| 17:06 | andyf_ | arrdem: Sounds good. You make them easy to take |
| 17:06 | puredanger | I don't think that's imminent or anything |
| 17:07 | SagiCZ11 | puredanger: i just only now realized that you have answered my question :D |
| 17:07 | arrdem | andyf_: :D |
| 17:07 | bbloom | would be quite nice to replace the awkward (f1 result ...) with (yield ...) |
| 17:07 | puredanger | SagiCZ11: sorry, should have named you in the reply :) |
| 17:08 | SagiCZ11 | puredanger: no problem ;) |
| 17:08 | puredanger | SagiCZ11: also, Design, Composition, and Performance |
| 17:08 | puredanger | SagiCZ11: http://thechangelog.com/rich-hickeys-greatest-hits/ :) |
| 17:11 | SagiCZ11 | greatest hits.. jesus.. ok thanks :) |
| 17:12 | devn | andyf_: patch bumped. |
| 17:12 | devn | puredanger: ha! i wrote that. |
| 17:13 | devn | the only article i ever wrote for the changelog, and their most successful post of 2013. |
| 17:13 | andyf_ | devn: Thanks. One less reason to reject a patch :-) |
| 17:13 | puredanger | SagiCZ11: well I wouldn't put him up there with jesus |
| 17:14 | devn | yeah, more like a philip glass than a jesus |
| 17:15 | quizme | how do you get the value of an interned variable programmatically? e.g. if i'm in ns 'user and i want to get the value of x as defined in myns, how do i do that? |
| 17:16 | puredanger | myns.x ? |
| 17:16 | quizme | i want to get it from strings |
| 17:16 | technomancy | quizme: ns-resolve |
| 17:16 | quizme | (ns-resolve (symbol "myns") (symbol "x")) |
| 17:16 | technomancy | and then deref the var |
| 17:17 | quizme | that does return the value at the repl |
| 17:17 | puredanger | sorry myns/x above yeesh |
| 17:17 | devn | i was going to say... :) |
| 17:17 | quizme | it returns #'myns/x |
| 17:17 | quizme | then how do u get the value of that? |
| 17:17 | technomancy | quizme: deref it |
| 17:17 | quizme | oh.. |
| 17:18 | puredanger | or if it's a function, you can invoke it |
| 17:18 | quizme | let me try that |
| 17:18 | Fare | what's the standard way of throwing a structured expression in clojure, i.e. not just a string? |
| 17:18 | Bronsa | ex-info |
| 17:18 | Bronsa | ,(doc ex-info) |
| 17:18 | clojurebot | "([msg map] [msg map cause]); Create an instance of ExceptionInfo, a RuntimeException subclass that carries a map of additional data." |
| 17:18 | devn | quizme: (deref (ns-resolve (symbol "myns") (symbol "x"))) or @(ns-resolve (symbol "myns") (symbol "x")) |
| 17:18 | gfredericks | $google catch-data |
| 17:18 | lazybot | [Catch Data Systems – Experts at Making the Pieces Fit | Catch Data ...] http://www.catchdata.com/ |
| 17:18 | gfredericks | haha |
| 17:18 | puredanger | and if you want more, look at slingshot library (which works with that) |
| 17:18 | Fare | thanks |
| 17:18 | Bronsa | then you can extract the data with ex-data |
| 17:19 | gfredericks | $google github catch-data |
| 17:19 | lazybot | [gfredericks/catch-data · GitHub] https://github.com/gfredericks/catch-data |
| 17:19 | gfredericks | there we go |
| 17:19 | devn | quizme: or as puredanger said: ((ns-resolve (symbol "myns") (symbol "x")) 'some 'arguments 'to 'the 'x' 'function) |
| 17:19 | Bronsa | gfredericks: neat |
| 17:20 | SagiCZ11 | is there a way to implement rolling moving average without mutable type? |
| 17:20 | quizme | well hot damn: (deref (ns-resolve (symbol "myns") (symbol "x"))) did the trick. Thank you. |
| 17:21 | hiredman | SagiCZ11: it depends what you mean by that |
| 17:21 | Fare | in ex-info msg map cause what's cause? |
| 17:22 | hiredman | but you can certainly implement a rolling average as a function that takes state and new value and returns new state and a new value |
| 17:22 | Bronsa | Fare: it can be another exception if you're rethrowing |
| 17:22 | SagiCZ11 | hiredman: but for calculating each next value i need the history of all values |
| 17:22 | hiredman | SagiCZ11: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_average#Exponential_moving_average |
| 17:22 | Bronsa | Fare: e.g. (catch Exception root-exception (throw (ex-info "msg" {} root-exception))) |
| 17:23 | hiredman | it really depends |
| 17:23 | Fare | what's the standard way to merge two maps? into? |
| 17:23 | hiredman | but the only "state" you need is the previous mean |
| 17:23 | Fare | (inc Bronsa) |
| 17:23 | lazybot | ⇒ 37 |
| 17:23 | SagiCZ11 | hiredman: and if i need the Simple moving average? |
| 17:23 | Bronsa | Fare: yeah |
| 17:23 | SagiCZ11 | hiredman: would i also only need the previous mean? |
| 17:23 | puredanger | Fare: merge? |
| 17:24 | quizme | SagiCZ11 use partition |
| 17:24 | Fare | is the standard way to match a list with core.match to use [([x y &z] :seq)] ? That's somewhat verbose. |
| 17:24 | amalloy | Fare: not much else you can do, no. also, you mean & z, not &z |
| 17:24 | Bronsa | puredanger: into might be faster than merge, merge is implemented with reduce1 |
| 17:25 | zenoli | ,(conj {:a 1 :b 2} {:b 3 :c 4}) |
| 17:25 | clojurebot | {:c 4, :b 3, :a 1} |
| 17:25 | devn | SagiCZ11: wouldn't reduce do what you need? |
| 17:25 | Fare | and to display an error, is println the standard utility? |
| 17:25 | puredanger | Bronsa: merge is more meaningful so I would use that unless I was in code where I thought it made any difference |
| 17:25 | hiredman | SagiCZ11: I think so, but I've never done that, the cases where I have done averages over a stream where I don't have all the values upfront have been for metrics where I care more about recent values |
| 17:26 | SagiCZ11 | hiredman: i see.. well i will try to come up with something |
| 17:27 | Bronsa | puredanger: fair point, I still prefer into since it also works for vectors and sets |
| 17:27 | SagiCZ11 | devn: reduce would might work here but i am still trying to wrap my head around that one |
| 17:27 | Fare | does merge make the last map win? |
| 17:27 | puredanger | yes |
| 17:27 | puredanger | takes N maps |
| 17:27 | hiredman | it looks like the simple moving average formula on the wikipedia page there requires the previous average, the last value, and a count of values |
| 17:28 | puredanger | Fare: also merge-with |
| 17:28 | Fare | nice |
| 17:28 | SagiCZ11 | hiredman: in which case it could be implemented with some kind of recurring function right? |
| 17:29 | Fare | clojure usually impresses me with how well it does the things it is designed to do. You can tell it's quality design. The opposite of what python does. |
| 17:29 | hiredman | SagiCZ11: well, that depends |
| 17:29 | Fare | then there are things it doesn't do... but in those cases, you can either fall back to Java, or build it with monads or higher-order functions. |
| 17:30 | hiredman | SagiCZ11: generally these kind of algorithms assuming you are summarizing parts of sort of infinite streams of data, a recuring function procssing an infinite stream of data like that won't return an answer |
| 17:39 | SagiCZ11 | i have implemented stream of data as a lazy sequence.. if i call (take 10 stream) i would expect clojure to first wait for the 10 elements.. but it returns immediately with less than 10 of them |
| 17:39 | devn | SagiCZ11: have code you could paste? |
| 17:39 | devn | (https://www.refheap.com/) |
| 17:39 | gfredericks | ,(take 10 '(1 2 3)) |
| 17:39 | clojurebot | (1 2 3) |
| 17:40 | devn | heh |
| 17:40 | devn | well there's that too, obviously |
| 17:41 | SagiCZ11 | well the lazy seq calls a function which should generate the next element.. the next element is created by blocking and reading data from the internet.. so it can take some time |
| 17:41 | SagiCZ11 | this works for consuming of the stream |
| 17:41 | SagiCZ11 | (defn consume [seq] |
| 17:41 | SagiCZ11 | (doseq [element seq] |
| 17:41 | SagiCZ11 | (println element))) |
| 17:41 | devn | ,(realized? (doall [1 2 3])) |
| 17:41 | clojurebot | #<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPending> |
| 17:42 | devn | derp |
| 17:42 | devn | ,(doall [1 2 3]) |
| 17:42 | clojurebot | [1 2 3] |
| 17:42 | SagiCZ11 | waait i got it.. found my mistake |
| 17:42 | gfredericks | huh |
| 17:42 | devn | same |
| 17:42 | devn | looking forward to tinkering with them in a bit |
| 17:43 | devn | although ive been following the commits in core.async i didn't know where things were at |
| 17:43 | SegFaultAX | Transducers + core.async is basically Rx. |
| 17:43 | devn | puredanger: is the authors list the list of people who worked on transducers? |
| 17:43 | puredanger | SegFaultAX: they have dropped - clojure 1.7.0-alpha1 and a new core.async went out today |
| 17:44 | SegFaultAX | puredanger: Nice. |
| 17:45 | SegFaultAX | Maybe I should submit a talk for conj on transducers... |
| 17:45 | SegFaultAX | When does that close again? |
| 17:45 | puredanger | SegFaultAX: I think Rich would not agree with that - I believe he sees them as being more reusable than anything in rx. you could implement rx in terms of existing transducers I think. (that would be cool if someone went and did that btw with RxJava :) |
| 17:46 | puredanger | SegFaultAX: it closed last week. I suspect Rich will be doing that talk ;) |
| 17:46 | SegFaultAX | Ah, great. |
| 17:46 | puredanger | devn: not sure what you're referring to. Rich has done all of the work on transducers other than bouncing things off people. |
| 17:46 | SegFaultAX | puredanger: I disagree in the sense that Rx has a much more complete DSL. |
| 17:47 | SegFaultAX | The core components are there, but it hasn't been unified into a single fluent DSL like Rx has. |
| 17:47 | hiredman | ,*clojure-version* |
| 17:47 | clojurebot | {:interim true, :major 1, :minor 7, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"} |
| 17:47 | puredanger | SegFaultAX: I am not knowledgable enough to discuss |
| 17:47 | puredanger | hiredman: nice |
| 17:47 | puredanger | ,(conj) |
| 17:47 | clojurebot | [] |
| 17:47 | puredanger | :) |
| 17:47 | gfredericks | ,(map inc) |
| 17:48 | clojurebot | #<core$map$fn__4338 clojure.core$map$fn__4338@44ac6a> |
| 17:48 | gfredericks | ,(doc sequence) |
| 17:48 | clojurebot | "([coll] [xform coll] [xform coll & colls]); Coerces coll to a (possibly empty) sequence, if it is not already one. Will not force a lazy seq. (sequence nil) yields (), When a transducer is supplied, returns a lazy sequence of applications of the transform to the items in coll(s), i.e. to the set of first items of each coll, followed by the set of second items in each coll, until any one of the co... |
| 17:48 | gfredericks | ,(sequence (map inc) '(1 2 3)) |
| 17:48 | clojurebot | (2 3 4) |
| 17:48 | gfredericks | ,(sequence (map +) [1 2 3] [9 10 11]) |
| 17:48 | clojurebot | (10 12 14) |
| 17:49 | amalloy | what is flatmap for? it's like reduce+mapcat glued together? |
| 17:49 | gfredericks | ,(doc flatmap) |
| 17:49 | clojurebot | "([f] [f coll]); maps f over coll and concatenates the results. Thus function f should return a collection. Returns a transducer when no collection is provided." |
| 17:49 | puredanger | yes - mapcat did not have an arity amenable to shortening like the others |
| 17:49 | gfredericks | ,(sequence (flatmap #(list % %)) [1 2 3]) |
| 17:49 | clojurebot | (1 1 2 2 3 ...) |
| 17:50 | amalloy | oh, really? i didn't realize (mapcat f) existed already |
| 17:50 | gfredericks | ,(mapcat +) |
| 17:50 | clojurebot | #<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.core$map$fn__4338> |
| 17:50 | gfredericks | ,(mapcat []) |
| 17:50 | clojurebot | #<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.core$map$fn__4338> |
| 17:50 | gfredericks | wat |
| 17:50 | gfredericks | ,(doc mapcat) |
| 17:50 | clojurebot | "([f & colls]); Returns the result of applying concat to the result of applying map to f and colls. Thus function f should return a collection." |
| 17:50 | amalloy | &(mapcat []) |
| 17:50 | lazybot | clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$map |
| 17:50 | Bronsa | 1-arity mapcat is useless |
| 17:51 | gfredericks | Bronsa: what if you want to throw an exception in an interesting way |
| 17:52 | amalloy | Bronsa: why is it useless? |
| 17:52 | Bronsa | amalloy: pre transducers it would have called (map f) which is an arity error |
| 17:52 | scape_ | how do I get the new cider? when i refresh package contents for melpa and reinstall cider it compiles and installs but is still an older version |
| 17:53 | Bronsa | post transducers it calls (map f) which returns a function, but tries to use it as a collection |
| 17:53 | Bronsa | which is a type error |
| 17:53 | Bronsa | gfredericks: fair enough. |
| 17:53 | mdeboard | `lein help new` says "The list of built-in templates can be shown with `lein help new`." but it does not in fact |
| 17:53 | mdeboard | so how do I see list of templates |
| 17:54 | amalloy | Bronsa: yes, it was useless before, but i don't see why adding a one-arity overload to mapcat wasn't possible; what it does now is useless, so making it do something better seems fine |
| 17:55 | trptcolin | mdeboard: look at the bottom of the `lein help new` output? under "Subtasks available" |
| 17:55 | Bronsa | amalloy: not sure I understand you, all I'm saying is that the current impl is nonsensical for 1-arity |
| 17:55 | mdeboard | trptcolin: yeah |
| 17:55 | mdeboard | Oh, those are the templates? ok |
| 17:56 | gfredericks | amalloy: I think you and Bronsa agree |
| 17:56 | amalloy | Bronsa: right, but that doesn't seem to be the question anyone asked |
| 17:56 | amalloy | i see. yes, gfredericks is probably right that we're agreeing without (me) realizing it |
| 17:56 | gfredericks | amalloy: puredanger said that arity 1 wasn't available for mapcat, and Bronsa argues it may as well have been |
| 17:57 | Bronsa | gfredericks: yes, thanks <3 |
| 17:57 | amalloy | yeah, which is what i was trying to say too. i didn't realize Bronsa was saying it |
| 17:57 | gfredericks | allow me to summarize one more time |
| 17:57 | amalloy | gfredericks: tldr: kittens |
| 17:58 | gfredericks | kittens was the first nonsense name I used for an application as a "professional" |
| 17:58 | scape_ | how do I get the new cider? when i refresh package contents for melpa and reinstall cider it compiles and installs but is still an older version |
| 17:59 | gfredericks | actually might have been my first professional clojure |
| 18:05 | SagiCZ11 | how do i get the n-th from last element? |
| 18:05 | gfredericks | cid |
| 18:06 | gfredericks | that is me trying to switch to my cider buffer so I can answer your question |
| 18:06 | scape_ | :) |
| 18:06 | amalloy | SagiCZ11: take-last is probably useful |
| 18:07 | SagiCZ11 | gfredericks: i wish i used emacs |
| 18:07 | amalloy | but it's not super-easy, because usually you'd rather not work with sequences from the end; rather, sequences from the front, or vectors from the end |
| 18:07 | stuartsierra | SagiCZ11: `reverse` and `nth` |
| 18:07 | SagiCZ11 | thanks for suggestions.. :) |
| 18:07 | amalloy | stuartsierra: barf. first/take-last |
| 18:07 | reiddraper | are we talking about transducers yet? |
| 18:08 | amalloy | you missed it. we were all into transducers before they were cool, reiddraper |
| 18:08 | technomancy | transducers are great for generating sci-fi technobabble |
| 18:08 | reiddraper | :( :( |
| 18:08 | technomancy | "Captain, the primary transducer vector is out of alignment; the reactor containment is at risk!" |
| 18:09 | reiddraper | technomancy: i think I understand what transducers are now! |
| 18:09 | amalloy | btw, stuartsierra, my objection to reverse/nth is that you re-traverse the sequence needlessly for N elements. if N is large, that's a lot of wasted effort |
| 18:09 | trptcolin | this should shed some more light on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_state_transducer |
| 18:10 | technomancy | reiddraper: as long as you can still reverse the polarity of the neutron flow you should be in good shape. |
| 18:10 | technomancy | otherwise you might end up stuck with a tachyon leak in your jeffries tubes |
| 18:10 | reiddraper | technomancy: hmm, will need to look into that |
| 18:11 | brehaut | seriously though, why does the polarity always need reversing? does someone sneak in before an episode and just press the polarity button? and why is it not the first thing they check |
| 18:11 | scape_ | relational relations.. |
| 18:11 | scape_ | holy crap i'm not smart enough for transducers |
| 18:11 | SegFaultAX | scape_: Nah, you are. They just have a scary name. |
| 18:12 | trptcolin | scape_: ignore my link i'm just being difficult |
| 18:12 | scape_ | :D |
| 18:12 | amalloy | a transducer is just a reductor combinator in the ______ of ______. what's the problem? <blanks left as an excercise for the reader> |
| 18:13 | SegFaultAX | Haha, nice. |
| 18:13 | scape_ | rich's post was interesting, he focused on , I felt, non-laziness of transducers. meanwhile, so much effort seems to have gone in to lazyness before this |
| 18:13 | SegFaultAX | scape_: It's not that they're lazy or strict, it's that they're *completely decoupled from the evaluation semantics* |
| 18:14 | hyPiRion | amalloy: it's just function composition over foldables |
| 18:14 | SegFaultAX | Whereas eg 2+ arity map /does/ have specific knowledge of the evaluation strategy. |
| 18:14 | SegFaultAX | hyPiRion: Can't talk about foldables without traversables. |
| 18:15 | mdrogalis | "What's he sick with?" "I'm afraid, he's caught.. Transduceritis." |
| 18:15 | hyPiRion | SegFaultAX: A foldable must by definition be traversable though |
| 18:15 | reiddraper | dnolen_ favorited my tweet about transducers, so it must be true |
| 18:17 | SegFaultAX | hyPiRion: Exactly! So really you should talk about traversables since foldMap can be implemented in terms of the traversable typeclass. |
| 18:17 | SegFaultAX | Duh. |
| 18:17 | SagiCZ11 | ,(Float. 3) |
| 18:17 | clojurebot | #<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching ctor found for class java.lang.Float> |
| 18:17 | SagiCZ11 | why not |
| 18:17 | amalloy | because why |
| 18:17 | scape_ | float is boxed right? |
| 18:17 | SagiCZ11 | ,(Float 3.3) |
| 18:18 | clojurebot | #<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Expecting var, but Float is mapped to class java.lang.Float> |
| 18:18 | ztellman | ,(Float. 3.3) |
| 18:18 | clojurebot | 3.3 |
| 18:18 | hyPiRion | SegFaultAX: whoops, I mixed them actually. A traversable must be foldable, bit not vice versa. |
| 18:18 | SegFaultAX | SagiCZ11: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/lang/Float.html |
| 18:18 | hiredman | ,(type 3) |
| 18:18 | clojurebot | java.lang.Long |
| 18:18 | SagiCZ11 | well thats dumb |
| 18:18 | SegFaultAX | There is no long constructor for Float. |
| 18:19 | SagiCZ11 | SegFaultAX: i see |
| 18:19 | amalloy | i find it hard to imagine you'd want to call the Float constructor with an integer literal anyway |
| 18:19 | SegFaultAX | scape_: float are not boxed, no. They are one of few primitives types. But Java will happily autobox/autounbox them as necessary. |
| 18:20 | scape_ | ah |
| 18:20 | SagiCZ11 | amalloy: i am trying to force clojure to use decimal numbers as a result of division |
| 18:20 | amalloy | so use ##(doc float) |
| 18:20 | lazybot | ⇒ "([x]); Coerce to float" |
| 18:20 | amalloy | java.lang.Float is awful |
| 18:21 | SegFaultAX | ,(type (float 3)) |
| 18:21 | clojurebot | java.lang.Float |
| 18:21 | hyPiRion | amalloy: or even better, double! |
| 18:21 | amalloy | hyPiRion: weirdly, in the aftermath of this whole discussion, i forgot double existed. i figured float must coerce to double, because why would you ever want a float |
| 18:21 | hyPiRion | when you want to do money transfers |
| 18:22 | SegFaultAX | :( |
| 18:22 | scape_ | 3d games |
| 18:22 | technomancy | ~guards |
| 18:22 | clojurebot | SEIZE HIM! |
| 18:22 | technomancy | =) |
| 18:22 | scape_ | hah |
| 18:23 | SegFaultAX | ,(type 100M) |
| 18:23 | clojurebot | java.math.BigDecimal |
| 18:23 | SegFaultAX | ,(type 100N) |
| 18:23 | clojurebot | clojure.lang.BigInt |
| 18:23 | SagiCZ11 | why are you hating on float? |
| 18:23 | SagiCZ11 | i mean.. at least it floats right? |
| 18:24 | SagiCZ11 | :( |
| 18:24 | SegFaultAX | hyPiRion: The sad thing is, I get the joke. More than you'll ever known. :'( |
| 18:26 | hyPiRion | SegFaultAX: I'm sorry =( |
| 18:26 | SagiCZ11 | everyone knows you may never use floating point number representation for money |
| 18:26 | SegFaultAX | "Everyone" |
| 18:26 | SagiCZ11 | then again.. my boss regulary represents booleans as BigDecimals (0, 1) .. :( |
| 18:27 | hyPiRion | tinyint 1 please |
| 18:30 | sveri | Hi, what is the best way to execute a function at a given time only once? I was thinking about using quartzite...but it seems like one can only define cronjob like repeating events... |
| 18:34 | csd_ | Why does filter #{set1} #{set2} take the intersection of the two? |
| 18:35 | amalloy | csd_: what else might it do? |
| 18:35 | hiredman | a set is a function that returns the element you pass it if it contains it |
| 18:35 | hiredman | ,(#{:a} :a) |
| 18:35 | clojurebot | :a |
| 18:35 | hiredman | ,(#{} :a) |
| 18:35 | clojurebot | nil |
| 18:35 | hiredman | ,(boolean (#{:a} :a)) |
| 18:35 | clojurebot | true |
| 18:35 | hiredman | ,(boolean (#{} :a)) |
| 18:35 | clojurebot | false |
| 18:35 | hiredman | so there you go |
| 18:36 | SegFaultAX | It doesn't exactly take the intersection. |
| 18:36 | SegFaultAX | ,(filter #{1 2 3} (set (range 10))) |
| 18:36 | clojurebot | (1 3 2) |
| 18:36 | csd_ | thanks thats helpful |
| 18:36 | SegFaultAX | Note the result is a list, not a set. |
| 18:36 | Fare | oh, there is a function boolean that booleanizes its arguments? |
| 18:36 | Fare | that's cool |
| 18:36 | amalloy | its one argument, yes |
| 18:37 | SegFaultAX | ,(map boolean [nil false [] {} #{} "" "" '() 0]) |
| 18:37 | clojurebot | (false false true true true ...) |
| 18:37 | SegFaultAX | ,(doall (map boolean [nil false [] {} #{} "" "" '() 0])) |
| 18:37 | clojurebot | (false false true true true ...) |
| 18:38 | SegFaultAX | Fare: One feature I like about Clojure is its very simple notion of true and false: nil and false are false, everything else is true. |
| 18:40 | amalloy | SegFaultAX: you're preaching to the wrong guy: he'd probably rather a simpler-still notion: nil false and everything else true (as a common lisper) |
| 18:40 | Fare | SegFaultAX, yes, it's a great relief from Python, Javascript, etc. |
| 18:41 | SegFaultAX | amalloy: How is that different from what I said? |
| 18:41 | SegFaultAX | Fare: Indeed. |
| 18:41 | hiredman | nil (false and everything else true (as a common lisper)) |
| 18:41 | Fare | I find that two false values is already too much, but oh well |
| 18:41 | hiredman | parens added for clarity |
| 18:41 | hiredman | er |
| 18:41 | hiredman | I guess that didn't work |
| 18:41 | SegFaultAX | Clarityer? |
| 18:41 | amalloy | oh, i see. i did punctuate that quite badly |
| 18:41 | technomancy | SegFaultAX: nil and false is redundant |
| 18:42 | hiredman | he means no distinct value 'false' |
| 18:42 | amalloy | (nil is falsey), everything else is truthy |
| 18:42 | SegFaultAX | Yes, that. |
| 18:42 | Fare | yes, I'm not sure about this nil being falsey thing |
| 18:42 | Fare | but oh well, it's not too bad. |
| 18:43 | technomancy | having nil in the first place is pretty unfortunate |
| 18:43 | technomancy | but when life gives you JVM lemons, make clojureade. |
| 18:43 | SegFaultAX | Yea, this is a little odd coming from other lisps: ##(= (boolean ()) (boolean nil)) |
| 18:43 | lazybot | ⇒ false |
| 18:50 | Fare | when filtering ex-info, do you do it based on message or based on some tag in the ex-data ? |
| 18:50 | technomancy | I'd avoid using the message if you can |
| 18:51 | Fare | yeah, I don't like using the message. But then is there a convention regarding discriminating the kind of map? |
| 18:51 | Fare | can I make the map a record or something? |
| 18:52 | technomancy | Fare: no, just put whatever you need to make the decision into the map |
| 18:52 | Fare | is the ex-data guaranteed to be a map? |
| 18:52 | technomancy | hard to give advice that's more specific than that |
| 18:52 | technomancy | yeah |
| 18:52 | technomancy | well, or nil if the exception isn't an ex-info |
| 18:52 | Fare | well, I want to distinguish between my exceptions and exceptions from other part of the code |
| 18:53 | DomKM | Anyone know why pre/post conditions don't work in protocol method implementations? Is this intentional? |
| 18:54 | DomKM | I found this report (http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1141) from Jan 2013 with no resolution. |
| 19:00 | Fare | ok, I'll use ::tag as the key in my ex-data to detect that the exception is for me |
| 19:07 | shinka | I download the lein script, launched it with "lein", it installed clojure and after "lein repl" I get a very long error message that starts with "Exception in thread "nREPL-worker-0" java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: clojure.tools.nrepl.StdOutBuffer.length()I". I'm on Linux x86 with the latest stable lein script and openjdk-7 installed. |
| 19:08 | technomancy | shinka: sounds like an issue with the latest version that I've been unable to reproduce. you can fall back to the previous version with `lein downgrade 2.4.2` |
| 19:08 | technomancy | but I'm super curious as to why it happens on your machine and not mine =\ |
| 19:08 | hiredman | https://github.com/clojure/core.async/commit/3abbd105ded7e5ccc9425b40514e841dcb5eb747#diff-5c087e8e400be45f4d03e0a618ef9d46R501 nice |
| 19:08 | technomancy | (I'm also on openjdk7 and linux) |
| 19:09 | Fare | is there a way to tell clojure / java how to print my special kind of ex-info ? |
| 19:10 | hiredman | shinka: what plugins are you using? |
| 19:11 | shinka | I'm on Ubuntu 14.04 and I have openjdk-7 installed... everything is updated. |
| 19:12 | shinka | hiredman: none, I just downloaded the lein script, did "lein" and "lein repl" (after putting it in /bin/). |
| 19:12 | hiredman | shinka: but what plugins? |
| 19:12 | hiredman | huh |
| 19:12 | shinka | I know what's happening, Clojure senses that I'm a vim user. |
| 19:12 | technomancy | haha |
| 19:13 | technomancy | shinka: you can try downgrading as per above or running a repl inside a project, which supposedly fixes it |
| 19:15 | shinka | Here's the error message: http://pastebin.com/hcGdVxLv |
| 19:15 | shinka | technomancy: al right, I'll try running inside a project. |
| 19:15 | hiredman | shinka: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/1625 |
| 19:17 | shinka | ...and it works. Thanks! |
| 19:19 | technomancy | shinka: still trying to understand what's happening there, but I hope to have a fix soon |
| 19:20 | shinka | I just installed it on another computer (Ubuntu 14.04 x86 again) and I get the same error. |
| 19:25 | hiredman | https://github.com/clojure/core.async/commit/3abbd105ded7e5ccc9425b40514e841dcb5eb747#diff-5c087e8e400be45f4d03e0a618ef9d46R470 the lack of an explicit (loop) here makes me sad |
| 19:26 | hiredman | I mean, I guess it doesn't really matter, but it just seems like bad form |
| 19:42 | juliobar_ | I've been working on an app with Om and Kioo and just tried to upgrade to Om 0.7.1. I'm not getting the error Uncaught Error: Assert failed: Invalid Om component fn, my_view does not return valid instance (or (satisfies? IRender x) (satisfies? IRenderState x)) ... any ideas? |
| 19:45 | tsantos | In Clojure regular expressions, do you have to escape forward slashes? |
| 19:45 | amalloy | try it and see, tsantos |
| 19:45 | hiredman | like five times |
| 19:46 | tsantos | I figured not… Just trying to see why my port of a tiny Node js app won’t work. |
| 19:48 | danielcompton | I'm trying to pull in a plugin from a private nexus repo, how do I set up my user profile to add this as a source? I've added the nexus repos as a :deploy-repositories key but is there another one? |
| 19:51 | llasram | danielcompton: :plugin-repositories in the :user profile |
| 19:52 | danielcompton | llasram: perfect! |
| 19:53 | danielcompton | llasram: Do I set :repositories in the user profile to use it for everything? |
| 19:57 | danielcompton | (inc llasram) |
| 19:57 | lazybot | ⇒ 31 |
| 20:16 | jumblemuddle | Leiningen seems to be creating a .m2 folder in my home directory. Is there anyway to wrangle this into an XDG folder? (.config, .cache, or .local) |
| 20:17 | hiredman | .m2 is the standard place where maven/lein keeps that stuff |
| 20:19 | jumblemuddle | So, any pretty way of moving it? |
| 20:19 | hiredman | I dunno if lein exposes a way to change that, if you really need it to be somewhere else you can just add a link |
| 20:19 | jumblemuddle | Alright, thanks anyways. |
| 20:20 | hiredman | so lein looks for config in .lein, which is also not a XDG folder, but you can put settings in there that can change I guess |
| 20:20 | hiredman | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12579335/leiningen-how-to-customize-the-location-of-the-m2-folder |
| 20:20 | jumblemuddle | Ya, I saw that I could do that, but then I'd still have the .lein folder. :/ |
| 20:21 | technomancy | I think you can set LEIN_HOME |
| 20:21 | jumblemuddle | Ah, I'll try that. |
| 20:22 | hiredman | what is the benefit of putting stuff in the xdg folders? |
| 20:22 | jumblemuddle | Not much, I'm just OCD about everything not using the same location. |
| 20:22 | jumblemuddle | I wouldn't mind if everything made dot folders, but because most of my stuff uses xdg folders, I want everything to use it. |
| 20:23 | hiredman | fair enough |
| 20:23 | technomancy | at least it's not virtualbox |
| 20:23 | technomancy | which creates a ~/Virtualbox VMs directory upon launch |
| 20:23 | jumblemuddle | Ya... I'm glad I don't use vbox often. |
| 20:24 | jumblemuddle | It's really hard to wrangle dot folders elsewhere sometimes... |
| 20:29 | gfredericks | technomancy: what's the problem? hard coded dir? a space in the name? not a dot folder? |
| 20:30 | gfredericks | capital letters? |
| 20:30 | jumblemuddle | All of the above... |
| 20:30 | jumblemuddle | lol |
| 20:30 | technomancy | yeah pretty much |
| 20:31 | technomancy | primarily creating a non-dotfile dir without asking though |
| 20:31 | clojurebot | It's greek to me. |
| 20:33 | gfredericks | thanks Obama I guess? |
| 20:36 | catern | hiredman: if you really follow the spec, the XDG folders can be moved with environment variables |
| 20:36 | catern | hiredman: also, .cache can be a mounted tmpfs, and you can backup .config easily |
| 20:38 | catern | hiredman: and .local follows the convention of /usr/ so for whatever program, you can just ./configure --prefix=~/.local && make install , and it will cohabitate nicely with everything else and you only have to add one bin directory (.local/bin) to your path, and that bin directory is even added by default in Fedora I think |
| 21:01 | awwaiid | I prefer just ~/local myself, hiding where binaries are confuses me I guess |
| 21:23 | paxan | Sooo… I have Leiningen 2.4.3 and I noticed that when I invoke "hadoop jar cooluber.jar foo.MainClass …" I get an FileNotFoundException from clojure.lang.Compiler.loadFile because instead of treating the argument after jar path as fully qual class name, it treats it as file. I think this is because leiningen added "Main-Class: clojure.main" to the jar manifest. Basically clojure.main is doing it's "main options" processing. When I remove Main-Class from the |
| 21:28 | paxan | aha! our CI server uses lein 2.3.1, but local machine is upgraded to 2.4.3, which explains why our deployed stuff continues to work (it lacks Main-Class) in manifest of the jar. |
| 21:28 | hiredman | paxan: you got cut off |
| 21:28 | paxan | sorry… IRC novice. |
| 21:28 | paxan | hiredman: any hint at what point it got cut off? |
| 21:29 | xeqi | "When I remove Main-Class from the" |
| 21:29 | paxan | "When I remove Main-Class from the manifest, the class loads correctly. Which leads me to think that somehow lein started to add Main-Class be default…" |
| 21:29 | paxan | "… It was clearly not the case before I upgraded to the newest lein. My older jars have no such Main-Class attribute in the manifest. Any suggestions on how to prevent Main-Class from being added to manifest?" |
| 21:30 | paxan | xeqi: thanks! |
| 21:30 | hiredman | https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/NEWS.md |
| 21:30 | hiredman | it is in 2.4.0 |
| 21:31 | paxan | my uberjar has like 5 mains :( |
| 21:32 | paxan | hiredman: thanks for the pointer. |
| 21:32 | hiredman | it doesn't look there is anything in the sample project.clj to disable that |
| 21:34 | paxan | yeah i am grepping the source now :) |
| 21:36 | amalloy | "Use clojure.main for uberjars that don't declare their own :main"? what's that for? |
| 21:37 | paxan | amalloy: from FAQ… |
| 21:37 | paxan | **Q:** Is there a way to use an uberjar without AOT? |
| 21:37 | paxan | **A:** As of Leiningen 2.4.0, if you omit `:main` in `project.clj`, |
| 21:37 | paxan | your uberjars will use `clojure.main` as their entry point. You can |
| 21:37 | paxan | launch with `java -jar my-app-standalone.jar -m my.entry.namespace |
| 21:37 | paxan | arg1 arg2 [...]` without any AOT, but it will take longer to launch. |
| 21:38 | paxan | https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/doc/FAQ.md |
| 21:38 | amalloy | mmmm, i don't really see the point. it's a little more convenient than `java -cp my-app-standalone.jar clojure-main -m my.entry.namespace`, but not really adding much |
| 21:38 | paxan | see the last one |
| 21:39 | paxan | so in my case my container is not "java" but "hadoop jar …" which seems to pay attention to manifest.mf which now has Main-Class :( |
| 21:49 | mdeboard | So is there a "right" way to start a clj web project with planned cljs front-end? I mean I know about `lein new compojure-app foo`, what's the right way to do the clojurescript bootstrap? Or is it even necessarY/ |
| 21:50 | mdeboard | I'm kind of murky on how it all fits together :( |
| 22:00 | paxan | hiredman: I've started an issue: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/1627 |
| 22:00 | paxan | cc technomancy :) |
| 22:11 | technomancy | paxan: we added the ability to skip the default main-class for this |
| 22:11 | paxan | :main nil ? |
| 22:11 | paxan | i just got it figured out |
| 22:11 | paxan | i think |
| 22:12 | paxan | bingo! |
| 22:12 | paxan | Manifest-Version: 1.0 |
| 22:12 | paxan | Built-By: pavel |
| 22:12 | paxan | Created-By: Leiningen 2.4.3 |
| 22:12 | paxan | Build-Jdk: 1.8.0_05 |
| 22:20 | technomancy | amalloy_: modulo weird things like hadoop, a jar with no main is strictly less useful than a jar with a repl as a main |
| 22:21 | technomancy | certainly not a big difference |
| 22:22 | TimMc | technomancy: At some point, lein-otf broke. Might be related. |
| 22:22 | gfredericks | clojurebot: weird things |like| hadoop |
| 22:22 | clojurebot | In Ordnung |
| 22:29 | paxan | boom! https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/pull/1628 :) |
| 22:37 | zeebrah | are there any good projects in need of newbie helpers? |
| 22:49 | TimMc | zeebrah: Yeah, you could help figure out why lein-otf isn't working anymore. :-P |
| 22:50 | TimMc | That would actually be a pretty good task if you want to learn more about Leiningen, Clojure, and Java. |
| 23:11 | zeebrah | TimMc: no promises but i'll try not be a big girl about it and give up too easily :) |
| 23:42 | trptcolin | ambrosebs: probably easier here than twitter: got any particularly drastically different output-type examples you can throw me? |
| 23:45 | ambrosebs | trptcolin: well "drastic" is relative :) |
| 23:45 | trptcolin | hehe |
| 23:45 | ambrosebs | trptcolin: let me rephrase |
| 23:46 | trptcolin | i guess til now i've see the main characteristic of sequence fns as being "returns an ISeq" |
| 23:47 | ambrosebs | right, I'll admit the transducer changes are "drastic" compared to the rest of clojure core |
| 23:48 | trptcolin | gotcha |
| 23:48 | ambrosebs | but clojure programmers are used to relying on certain output for certain input.. sounds like a silly statement but maybe the types will speak for themselves https://github.com/clojure/core.typed/blob/master/module-check/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/typed/base_env.clj#L904 |
| 23:48 | ambrosebs | there are lots of things going on in any function call usually |
| 23:48 | ambrosebs | but my real point was my second tweet |
| 23:49 | ambrosebs | if we can communicate these differences better than "watever" -> "foo", we will kickstart the learning process |
| 23:49 | trptcolin | yeah, i was trying to figure out what was bothering me and i realized maybe it's a types thing |
| 23:49 | trptcolin | well, "bothering" |
| 23:50 | ambrosebs | the concept of functions doing weird things that don't make sense in other typed langs is not foreign in Clojure |
| 23:50 | trptcolin | i'm sitting here w/ a scotch playing around & learning stuff |
| 23:53 | ambrosebs | everything's getting higher and higher order these days. we can learn a lot from racket's higher-order contracts + blame to debug this kind of thing. |
| 23:53 | ambrosebs | and that means: expect to see something like racket's contracts pop up at some point. |
| 23:54 | ambrosebs | once something goes wrong passing a transducer to a higher-order channel.. if the error message actually tells you the source of the error you'd save a lot of time |
| 23:54 | ambrosebs | it's very cool stuff |
| 23:55 | ambrosebs | and of course there's typed clojure for the braver |
| 23:55 | ambrosebs | but we all know that we can add a contract and immediately reap benefits |
| 23:56 | trptcolin | eh, immediately depends on the situation |
| 23:56 | trptcolin | i've definitely seen it pay off |
| 23:56 | trptcolin | but also sunk time into writing contracts and never seen it pay off |
| 23:57 | ambrosebs | trptcolin: what kind of contracts? |
| 23:57 | trptcolin | same deal w/ tests, though i'm more experienced w/ those so they go faster ;) |
| 23:57 | ambrosebs | I mean, something like what racket provides? |
| 23:57 | trptcolin | oh no |
| 23:57 | trptcolin | just stuff like schema, preconditions |
| 23:58 | trptcolin | well actually, i assume not. i have no idea what racket provides other than what you just wrote :) |
| 23:58 | trptcolin | seqex |
| 23:59 | ambrosebs | yes I agree those only go so far |
