2014-07-16
| 00:31 | numberten | is there a good way of lazily reducing? |
| 00:31 | numberten | trying to read a big file lazily and read values from it and store them in a vector via 'reduce' |
| 00:33 | numberten | (with-open [rdr (clojure.java.io/reader "file")] (reduce #(conj % %2) [] (line-seq rdr))) |
| 00:33 | numberten | something like that |
| 00:34 | tbaldridge | how would you lazily store something? |
| 00:34 | jeremyheiler | numberten: i'm not sure what you mean by lazy reduce. |
| 00:36 | numberten | maybe that was the wrong wording |
| 00:37 | numberten | I think something about that is holding onto the head of the seq? |
| 00:38 | numberten | because the heap runs out of space |
| 00:38 | numberten | but I've been able to make vectors of that size before |
| 00:39 | jeremyheiler | how big is your file? |
| 00:40 | tomjack | try (reduce (constantly nil) ...) to test? |
| 00:40 | numberten | 91M |
| 00:42 | numberten | constantly nil returns nil. what does that test? |
| 00:42 | tomjack | I don't think it holds the head |
| 00:42 | numberten | hrm |
| 00:44 | tomjack | I guess it may be a chunked seq, but surely as long as you can fit every chunk of 32 lines, the reduce with (constantly nil) should work (I'd think) |
| 00:44 | jeremyheiler | does slurp cause the same problem? |
| 00:47 | numberten | yeah it does |
| 00:47 | tbaldridge | "Well there's your problem...." |
| 00:49 | technomancy | http://twitterthecomic.tumblr.com/post/40956811679/ah-heres-your-problem-pulls-out-random-part |
| 01:29 | danielcompton | What would be the way to turn {:a {:b :makes :c :takes} :b {:c :takes} :c {:a :makes}} into {:a [:b :c] :b [:c] :c [:a]}? |
| 01:30 | danielcompton | i.e. get just the keys from a nested map |
| 01:30 | jeremyheiler | (update-in m [:a] keys) ? |
| 01:31 | jeremyheiler | so.. (-> m (update-in [:a] keys) (update-in [:b] keys) ...) |
| 01:31 | danielcompton | There could be an arbitrary number of keys |
| 01:32 | danielcompton | With arbitrary names |
| 01:32 | TEttinger | danielcompton, there is almost certainly a way |
| 01:33 | jeremyheiler | so, (map #(update-in m [%] keys) (keys m)) ? |
| 01:33 | danielcompton | TEttinger: It seems like one of those Clojure things that will be a blindingly obvious one liner |
| 01:34 | jeremyheiler | oops. |
| 01:34 | danielcompton | jeremyheiler: ? |
| 01:34 | jeremyheiler | reduce, not map |
| 01:34 | jeremyheiler | something liek that |
| 01:34 | jeremyheiler | do you see where i'm going tho? |
| 01:35 | danielcompton | jeremyheiler: Sort of... |
| 01:36 | jeremyheiler | you know the keys because you can inspect the map |
| 01:36 | TEttinger | ,(let [nest {:a {:b :makes :c :takes} :b {:c :takes} :c {:a :makes}}] (reduce #(conj %1 [(key %2) (keys (val %2))]) {} nest)) |
| 01:37 | clojurebot | {:a (:c :b), :b (:c), :c (:a)} |
| 01:37 | TEttinger | yep, one-liner |
| 01:37 | jeremyheiler | https://gist.github.com/jeremyheiler/899dd9419d5a4ba4671f |
| 01:39 | jeremyheiler | ,(let [m {:a {:b 2 :c 3} :b {:d 4 :e 5} :c {:f 6}}] |
| 01:39 | jeremyheiler | (reduce (fn [m k] (update-in m [k] keys)) m (keys m))) |
| 01:39 | clojurebot | #<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading> |
| 01:39 | jeremyheiler | ugh. |
| 01:40 | jeremyheiler | ,(let [m {:a {:b 2 :c 3} :b {:d 4 :e 5} :c {:f 6}}] (reduce (fn [m k] (update-in m [k] keys)) m (keys m))) |
| 01:40 | clojurebot | {:c (:f), :b (:e :d), :a (:c :b)} |
| 01:40 | danielcompton | (defn super-keys [m] |
| 01:40 | danielcompton | (zipmap (keys m) (map #(vec (keys %)) (vals m)))) |
| 01:42 | danielcompton | jeremyheiler: thanks! |
| 01:43 | jeremyheiler | np |
| 01:58 | amalloy | i like (into {} (for [[k v] m] [k (keys v)])), because i always like for-comprehension solutions |
| 03:20 | magopian | is there a functional database (like datomic) that is opensource and nice to use? |
| 03:20 | magopian | (that I can use with clojure ;) |
| 03:28 | whodidthis | no ;_; |
| 03:57 | hhenkel | Good morning all! |
| 03:58 | hhenkel | In the past I used cheshire to parse and generate json data. Now I'm working with a third party client who gives me json data. |
| 03:58 | magopian | whodidthis: ah, too bad :'( i'm not comfortable using something that isn't opensource |
| 03:58 | hhenkel | I fail to cast it into some clojure datatype with this error: java.lang.ClassCastException: org.json.simple.JSONObject cannot be cast to java.lang.String |
| 03:59 | hhenkel | What is the way to go? Is it possible to use cheshire here or do I need to use org.json.simple ? |
| 04:01 | ivan | if you wanted to read some xattrs, would you prefer listxattr + llistxattr (does not follow symlinks) matching the POSIX APIs, or an opts map {:follow-symlinks true}, or a (into-array [LinkOption/NOFOLLOW_LINKS]) to match NIO? |
| 04:03 | hhenkel | Okay, nevermind I looked at the javadoc of simplejson and found "toJSONString" |
| 04:13 | nobodyzzz | magopian, there are a lot of db you can use with clojure, but none of them seems to be "functional" :) |
| 04:18 | vijaykiran | magopian: the free/starter version works fine - if *free* is the requirement |
| 04:30 | magopian | nobodyzzz: haha ;) |
| 04:31 | magopian | vijaykiran: nope, free is not the only requirement ;) |
| 04:31 | magopian | well, it's not a requirement, just... not comfortable |
| 04:36 | ivan | are there any Java APIs for opening/writing/listing filenames that are not valid UTF-8? (while staying in the UTF-8 locale) |
| 04:44 | wagjo | ivan: most flexible is to use filechannel with java.nio.charset |
| 04:47 | ivan | wagjo: does that help with invalid filenames, though? |
| 04:47 | ivan | skimming the APIs it looks like it's for file contents? |
| 04:48 | wagjo | ivan: yeah, its just for fole contents, for file names, look in java.nio.file.Paths |
| 04:59 | wagjo | ivan: see http://stackoverflow.com/questions/22775758/java-io-file-accessing-files-with-invalid-filename-encodings |
| 05:00 | ivan | wagjo: do any of those solve the problem, though? |
| 05:00 | ivan | I probably don't want to take the Java process out of the UTF-8 locale to read some weird files |
| 05:06 | vyorkin | hi everyone! i've just started to learn clojure & now i'm trying to solve some simple problems to practice & become comfortable with it, for example http://pastebin.com/Q53Ctf91 could you give me some code review? |
| 05:07 | vyorkin | to merge the resulting hashes i've used deep-merge-with from deprecated clojure.contrib.map-utils, i think that it could be done better=simplier |
| 05:08 | wagjo | ivan: if you set file.encoding to some non-0unicode one-byte charset, it will read any filename. However you will get garbled filenames if they were utf8. |
| 05:09 | ivan | wagjo: yeah, I think I either have to do that, or live with the limitations, or rewrite this in Rust ;) |
| 05:09 | ivan | thanks |
| 05:09 | wagjo | ivan: another thing is to not use old java.io when encoding is changes, as e.g. FileReader uses this property. Use java.nio where you can set any charset you like for file contents |
| 05:10 | wagjo | ivan: thing is that you cannot get filename as a byte array, only as a string, so this is the only workaroud I'm aware of |
| 05:13 | ivan | wagjo: yeah the -Dfile.encoding=iso-8859-1 workaround is no fun because it screws up a lot of things |
| 05:13 | ivan | e.g. "hello \uCCCC" -> "hello ?" in my REPL |
| 05:39 | kerneis | vyorkin: it could be much simpler |
| 05:41 | kerneis | also, are you sure your identifiers are restricted to a single letter? |
| 05:47 | vyorkin | kerneis: good to see you! |
| 05:48 | AeroNotix | is there something like filter / remove but returns the collection of items that are truthy as per predicate function? |
| 05:48 | vyorkin | kerneis: can you point me in the right direction? maybe some reading |
| 05:48 | hyPiRion | AeroNotix: keep? |
| 05:48 | AeroNotix | hyPiRion: /me looks |
| 05:48 | AeroNotix | That does it! |
| 05:48 | AeroNotix | :) |
| 05:48 | hyPiRion | ,(keep {:a 1 :b 2} [:b :c :a]) |
| 05:48 | AeroNotix | cheers |
| 05:48 | clojurebot | (2 1) |
| 05:48 | hyPiRion | sweet |
| 05:49 | vyorkin | kernies: i've just started to read The joy of clojure |
| 05:51 | kerneis | vyorkin: have you looked at update-in and tried to re-write transform to use it as I suggested yesterday? |
| 05:51 | kerneis | you could really get rid of deep-merge-with and do all the work in reduce transform {}, provided you use update-in in transform |
| 05:52 | vyorkin | kerneis: yep, i understand how update-in, but i really couldn't come up with anything |
| 05:52 | vyorkin | kerneis: i've tried to think about smth like (reduce (update-in ..)) as you've suggested yesterday |
| 05:52 | vyorkin | kerneis: but had no luck with it( |
| 05:53 | vyorkin | kerneis: don't know what to do with things like { :a { :b [1] } } { :a { :b [2] } } |
| 05:53 | vyorkin | kerneis: to get { :a { :b [1 2] } } |
| 05:54 | Glenjamin | have you tried starting with a direct port of the rails logic? |
| 05:55 | nobodyzzz | vyorkin, maybe try to take a look at ring.util.codec/form-decode |
| 05:56 | vyorkin | Glemjamin: i think thats not fair (: i wanted to do it by myself, this solution works but code looks really ugly imho |
| 05:56 | vyorkin | i mean my solution is ugly & too verbose |
| 05:59 | ivan | wagjo: -Dfile.encoding= was for file contents, -Dsun.jnu.encoding=iso-8859-1 lets me read invalid UTF-8 |
| 06:01 | nobodyzzz | ,(merge-with (partial merge-with concat) { :a { :b [1] } } { :a { :b [2] }}) |
| 06:01 | clojurebot | {:a {:b (1 2)}} |
| 06:06 | vyorkin | nobodyzz: looks great, trying to understand it |
| 06:06 | kerneis | vyorkin: the key insight is that you need to treat your chain differently when the last element is "[]" |
| 06:06 | kerneis | so, in (nesting-chain), remove the "reverse" |
| 06:06 | kerneis | (it is more confusing than anything else) |
| 06:07 | kerneis | also remove that last (apply deep-merge-with) |
| 06:08 | kerneis | and now, rewrite transform from scratch |
| 06:08 | kerneis | so it will still be (defn- transform [acc [chain value]] |
| 06:08 | kerneis | but now, you have two cases: |
| 06:08 | kerneis | first case: (= (last chain) "[]") |
| 06:08 | kerneis | second case: everything else |
| 06:09 | kerneis | in the first case, the "real" chain is everything execpt this "[]" (ie. drop-last chain) |
| 06:10 | kerneis | and you need to use update-in with some concat magic, as nobodyzzz suggested above |
| 06:10 | kerneis | in the second case, you use update-in again, this time with the whole chain |
| 06:10 | kerneis | or maybe just assoc-in in fact |
| 06:10 | kerneis | use an if to glue both cases together, done! |
| 06:12 | vyorkin | kerneis: thank you! |
| 06:13 | vyorkin | kerneis: now i need some time to think (: |
| 06:18 | kerneis | vyorkin: I'll be away but if you still cannot solve it with those hints, the solution I just outlined is here http://pastebin.com/2enmLUSb (but try to look at it only when you have one by yourself!) |
| 06:19 | razi | vyorkin: I found Programming Clojure far more enjoyable than Joy of Clojure, if it helps. :) |
| 06:20 | razi | http://www.braveclojure.com/ is awesome as well, and http://aphyr.com/ |
| 06:23 | kerneis | what, 106 views in 5 minutes? My little snippet does not deserve so much attention :-$ |
| 06:41 | ivan | kerneis: I think there are a lot of bots spidering pastebin to steal credentials |
| 06:41 | vyorkin | kerneis: looks awesome |
| 06:45 | vyorkin | maybe someone can also suggest some set of problems to practice? something close to real life cases |
| 06:53 | nobodyzzz | http://www.4clojure.com/ but problems there not really close to real life cases =) |
| 06:53 | nbeloglazov | vyorkin: how real life? I always wanted to have some kind of web service which runs kibit (https://github.com/jonase/kibit) checks on arbitrary github clojure repo and presents a summary. Is it real life enough? |
| 07:11 | vyorkin | nbeloglazov: thats interesting! |
| 07:15 | vyorkin | nbeloglazov: ok, maybe i'll try to buld such a tool, that'll be a really good practice (: |
| 07:16 | nbeloglazov | vyorkin: yeah, it would require working with GitHub API and probably clojure AST, so should be quite fun |
| 07:19 | nobodyzzz | https://github.com/Raynes/tentacles hehe, funny name |
| 07:59 | gfredericks | how do you debug a situation where defn returns #'user/foo and you can call that var just fine but (resolve 'user/foo) returns nil? |
| 08:00 | gfredericks | answer: it was a typo of course |
| 08:00 | gfredericks | i.e., defn returned #'user/ofo and (resolve 'user/foo) returned nil to nobody's surprise |
| 08:52 | hhenkel | Hi I'm stuck currently. Can someone please explain to me why "(doseq [server server-config] (pprint server))" executes the pprint and why the same thing with for is doing nothing? |
| 08:52 | CookedGr1phon | hhenkel: because for is lazily evaluated to produce a list |
| 08:53 | CookedGr1phon | whereas doseq doesn't produce a value, it simply goes through performing side effects |
| 08:54 | hhenkel | CookedGr1phon: okay, so if I execute something within a for the execution happens when I try to get data from it, right? |
| 08:54 | CookedGr1phon | right |
| 08:55 | hhenkel | So as long as I don't do anything with the returned data I won't see any trace output for example? |
| 08:55 | CookedGr1phon | exactly |
| 08:55 | hhenkel | CookedGr1phon: Okay, then it makes somehow sense... ;) |
| 08:55 | hhenkel | CookedGr1phon: Thanks! I guess I was to long siting in front of the code.... |
| 09:47 | nbeloglazov | hhenkel: be aware though, that 'for' is not completely lazy, it will "calculate" elements in batches by 32 elements. So when you try to access first element you'll see 32 (pprint server) in repl. |
| 09:48 | gfredericks | that's not for doing that |
| 09:48 | gfredericks | for is just as lazy as anything else |
| 09:49 | gfredericks | that's how chunked seqs behave |
| 09:50 | gfredericks | ,(second (for [x (take 10 (iterate inc 0))] (print x))) |
| 09:50 | clojurebot | 01 |
| 09:50 | gfredericks | ,(second (for [x (range 10)] (print x))) |
| 09:50 | clojurebot | 0123456789 |
| 09:50 | ucb | I get a warning about clojure-test-mode being deprecated and having to switch to cider-0.7+ |
| 09:51 | ucb | how does cider replace clojure-test-mode? |
| 09:51 | ucb | or at least, where can I read about this replacement? |
| 09:55 | ssideris | ucb: the functionality has been integrated into cider |
| 09:55 | ssideris | ucb: same default key bindings |
| 09:55 | ucb | yeah, now reading https://github.com/clojure-emacs/clojure-mode/issues/214 |
| 09:55 | ucb | thanks! |
| 09:56 | ssutch_ | what does #{:blah} construct, the repl just prints it back out at me and it's a tough one to google |
| 09:57 | boxed | #{} is a set, {} is a map |
| 09:57 | Glenjamin | it's a set |
| 09:57 | ssutch_ | aye, thank you |
| 09:57 | boxed | ,(type #{:blah}) |
| 09:57 | clojurebot | clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet |
| 09:57 | boxed | <3 clojurebot |
| 09:59 | TimMc | ssutch_: You'll want to look through this: http://clojure.org/reader |
| 09:59 | ssutch_ | ah i did not know the "type" function |
| 10:00 | ssutch_ | thanks TimMc ill give it a refresher (coming back to clojure after ~2yr) |
| 10:00 | Glenjamin | so, when discussing simple made easy with someone just now he gave a very good counterexample |
| 10:01 | Glenjamin | his claim was that esperanto is simple, but it's foreign so therefore not easy. |
| 10:01 | Glenjamin | so should we all learn esperanto? |
| 10:02 | Glenjamin | i didn't really have a good answer, i guess practicality is the third axis? |
| 10:07 | ssideris | Glenjamin: I think the whole argument about simplicity is that it's more desirable than ease |
| 10:07 | ssideris | simple!=easy |
| 10:07 | ssideris | but it's worth the extra effort |
| 10:07 | Glenjamin | which would imply we should learn esperanto :) |
| 10:08 | ssideris | that's my understanding |
| 10:08 | ssideris | :-) |
| 10:10 | Glenjamin | Ok, ebligas fari tion |
| 10:11 | gfredericks | you're outside the domain of engineering at that point though |
| 10:11 | gfredericks | so there's different dynamics and different scales of concern |
| 10:16 | latk | I'm trying to enable sourcemaps in cljs, but when I change the project.clj I get an error I cannot decipher. Can anyone help? http://bpaste.net/show/RmYBXEuf8N3AE3XKHvbe/ |
| 10:17 | bob2 | == typo in your project.clj |
| 10:17 | latk | bob2: Ah, how can I work out where ? |
| 10:17 | bob2 | by looking at the change you just made |
| 10:20 | latk | bob2: Sorry, my connection just died. |
| 10:20 | bob2 | look at your diff |
| 10:22 | gfredericks | latk: my guess is you somewhere have a map when cljsbuild is expecting a collection of maps |
| 10:24 | latk | Right. I just copy/pasted from the wiki and edited.. we shall see |
| 10:32 | latk | So I've changed some stuff, and now I don't get an error - but it seems that the compiler is hanging. |
| 10:32 | latk | As in, it's been "Compiling ClojureScript." for 5 minutes |
| 10:34 | tbaldridge | what's your JVM heap size? And what are you using to compile? |
| 10:35 | latk | tbaldridge: I'm using lein. How can I check my JVM heap size? |
| 10:37 | tbaldridge | What lein command are you using? |
| 10:38 | latk | lein cljsbuild auto test-test-om |
| 10:38 | latk | test-test-om is the name of the project |
| 10:48 | tbaldridge | latk: sometimes cljsbuild auto doesn't start compiling until a file is changed |
| 10:48 | tbaldridge | try adding a space to a file and saving it, that should kick off the compilation |
| 11:12 | cbp | it says Compiling "foo.js" when it's actually compiling |
| 11:13 | cbp | if it just says compiling clojurescript then it has already compiled and it's waiting for changes |
| 11:17 | mikerod | When using tools.analyzer.jvm is there any good way to make it *not* throw exceptions when symbols cannot be resolved? |
| 11:17 | mikerod | I'm trying to parse out the clj AST from a form, however, I know there are some symbols that will not make sense in the form. |
| 11:17 | mikerod | Well, they won't make sense at the time of analysis. |
| 11:18 | mikerod | However, I do want to qualify all vars that *do* exists during analysis. |
| 11:18 | kerneis | mikerod: naive idea, if you know them in advance, can't you wrap your form in (let [x nil y nil] ...)? |
| 11:19 | mikerod | The goal is to emit a form that has all symbols fully-qualified, when they can be - however, I want to leave all binding symbols alone, and allow for shadowing to occur. This is why tools.analyzer approach looks like it could almost fit my needs. |
| 11:19 | arrdem | kerneis: then they'll be locals rather than vars and it won't work. |
| 11:19 | arrdem | mikerod: what are you really trying to do? what you're asking for doesn't make sense. |
| 11:20 | mikerod | arrdem: Making a DSL. I want to parse out some of the forms in it with everythign qualified, so that if I eval the forms later on, they will make sense regardless of the ns they are in. |
| 11:20 | mikerod | regardless of *ns* that is |
| 11:21 | mikerod | I have some "special" scoped symbols available during this. I don't want those to throw exceptions. They will be present later. |
| 11:22 | mikerod | So essentially I wanted to do the :qualified-vars option and emit the form. I just wanted to not fail on the symbols that didn't make sense in the form. I may be able to "pretend" they are in scope though by passing some dummy-env or something like kerneis said about introducing them as locals at the top-level... hmm |
| 11:22 | arrdem | that doesn't make sense from a Clojure semantics point of view. Either a def exists and a var can be resolved/qualified or no def exists and you have a forward declaration which is illegal. The only way you're going to be able to do this is as you say with a dummy env that provides such forward defs because otherwise this is meaningless. |
| 11:23 | mikerod | arrdem: That's fair and that's sort of what I thought given the perspective of this being an analyzer |
| 11:23 | mikerod | To go along with this goal, does tools.analyzer.jvm have any way of fully-qualifying imported Java classes? I'm not seeing this option. |
| 11:24 | mikerod | So I have a form with something like, List in it - that is really imported from java.util.List. |
| 11:24 | arrdem | that stuff will already be fully qualified if a fully qualified class can be statically resolved. |
| 11:25 | arrdem | there's no such thing as an "aliased" class in the JVM or TANAL |
| 11:25 | arrdem | AFAIK |
| 11:25 | arrdem | the class "renaming" that Clojure and Java provide is a compile time lie that goes away quickly. |
| 11:25 | mikerod | arrdem: Oh, so I guess that means as long as the env has the `import`s in it |
| 11:25 | arrdem | yep. |
| 11:25 | mikerod | arrdem: cool, I'll keep that in mind for this then. |
| 11:25 | arrdem | I mean... Bronsa is the expert on this not me, but this is what I recall. |
| 11:25 | mikerod | Thanks for the feedback. |
| 11:25 | arrdem | np. |
| 11:45 | gfredericks | clojure and java provide class renaming?? |
| 11:45 | lazybot | gfredericks: Definitely not. |
| 11:46 | gfredericks | or do we just mean using the unqualified class names? |
| 11:46 | gfredericks | in neither case can I decide I want to spell java.util.List as "FooBar" amirite? |
| 11:46 | arrdem | the ability to use unqualified class names due to implicit as. |
| 11:46 | arrdem | right. |
| 11:47 | gfredericks | okay phew |
| 11:55 | Digenis | are there any other #clojure channels in freenode? |
| 11:55 | arrdem | there's #clojure-offtopic, #leiningen, #clojurescript, #typed-clojure, #clojure-social (dead), #clojure-gsoc and some more |
| 11:56 | mikerod | gfredericks: One time I hacked the symbol table for a Namespace to map an arbitrary symbol to a Java class |
| 11:56 | mikerod | gfredericks: I don't think that really counts for what you're saying, but it can be done with the Namespace API |
| 11:57 | technomancy | oh, there's a gsoc channel now? |
| 11:57 | technomancy | does that mean #clojure-offtopic is actually offtopic? |
| 11:57 | arrdem | I made one a while back, hasn't been used for anything so #clojure-offtopic is still gsoc :P |
| 11:57 | technomancy | oh |
| 11:58 | mikerod | gfredericks: What I was referring to was calling Namespace#importClass(Sym, Class) with a symbol of your choice |
| 11:58 | Digenis | I see, thank you |
| 11:58 | gfredericks | ,*ns* |
| 11:58 | clojurebot | #<Namespace sandbox> |
| 11:59 | gfredericks | ,(.importClass *ns* 'HooHa java.util.HashMap) |
| 11:59 | clojurebot | java.util.HashMap |
| 11:59 | gfredericks | ,(HooHa.) |
| 11:59 | clojurebot | {} |
| 11:59 | gfredericks | (inc mikerod) |
| 11:59 | lazybot | ⇒ 2 |
| 11:59 | mikerod | exactly |
| 11:59 | mikerod | I don't know that is a good thing/reliable thing to do. |
| 11:59 | arrdem | (inc mikerod) ;; well that's my wat for the day |
| 11:59 | lazybot | ⇒ 3 |
| 11:59 | gfredericks | ,(type HooHa) |
| 11:59 | clojurebot | java.lang.Class |
| 11:59 | mikerod | :) |
| 12:00 | technomancy | nice |
| 12:00 | mikerod | Some (probably bad) isolated clj runtime classloader stuff I was messing with one day led me to wanting to do that |
| 12:00 | technomancy | that'd be cool for the RidiculouslyLongAndVerboseClassNamesWithLongNames you see in java land |
| 12:01 | mikerod | but then I never followed through with it |
| 12:01 | technomancy | I mean, assuming you had egalitarian-ns =\ |
| 12:01 | mikerod | technomancy: that's a good use case |
| 12:01 | mikerod | I hate long names |
| 12:01 | mikerod | LongNamesMakeMeAngryThatIs |
| 12:01 | technomancy | 80 columns is where it's at |
| 12:01 | mikerod | I can't even read them. Just a wall of texts filling my eyes. |
| 12:02 | mikerod | Yes, I don't mind the 80 cols |
| 12:05 | Shayanjm | morning all |
| 12:05 | verma | what would you guys recommend for async code testing? can clojure.test do this? |
| 12:24 | nbeloglazov | verma: what kind of async code? |
| 12:25 | verma | nbeloglazov, clojure.async channels |
| 12:27 | nbeloglazov | I think you can do it in clojure.test. Java supports multithreading, so you can create some kind of latch which will block current thread until async operations are done. May be there is some specific libraries for testing core.async, don't know. |
| 12:31 | johnwalker | i've been getting clojure-test-mode is deprecated messages every time i visit a clj file |
| 12:31 | johnwalker | i'm on the latest versions of cider/clojure-mode |
| 12:32 | johnwalker | is this normal? |
| 12:36 | munderwood | Hi all. Is there an inbuilt json serializer/deserializer? or failing that which one do most people use? |
| 12:36 | arrdem | clojure.data.json is a contrib library... |
| 12:37 | munderwood | so thats packaged with clojure? |
| 12:37 | arrdem | no, that means it's separately available but still "official"ish |
| 12:37 | Glenjamin | hrm, what does having something in contrib tell you? |
| 12:37 | puredanger | No, see here: https://github.com/clojure/data.json |
| 12:38 | Glenjamin | apart from it's harder to send PRs to :D |
| 12:38 | technomancy | Glenjamin: that's about it |
| 12:38 | Glenjamin | i jest |
| 12:38 | puredanger | Glenjamin: it tells you that is is managed with the same license and contribution model as Clojure itself |
| 12:38 | Glenjamin | somewhat |
| 12:38 | puredanger | and parts of it could be included or depended on from within Clojure |
| 12:38 | technomancy | munderwood: most people use cheshire |
| 12:38 | puredanger | for example, Clojure uses data.generators and test.generative for testing itself |
| 12:38 | Glenjamin | right, i see |
| 12:39 | puredanger | (and hopefully will start using test.check in the near future) |
| 12:39 | Glenjamin | i guess there's some sort of implicit fuzzy quality bar as well? |
| 12:40 | puredanger | not necessarily - contrib libs are at many stages of development and maturity, just like any other libs |
| 12:40 | puredanger | there are some ideas around bars for a 1.0 release but I'm not sure how much that's actually important |
| 12:41 | munderwood | technomancy: thanks! thats kind of what I was looking for. Although the info about contrib was useful. The distiction between contrib and the std lib is confusing for me (a clojure n00b). Coming from python where you have a lot of stuff built in and then everything else. Having a third group seems confusing. |
| 12:41 | puredanger | and contributors might be anyone that signed the CA |
| 12:42 | puredanger | munderwood: at times there has been a contemplation of having an "in the box" version of Clojure that would bundle certain libs |
| 12:42 | gfredericks | count me -1 for that idea |
| 12:42 | Glenjamin | me also, dependencies are great! |
| 12:42 | munderwood | why gfredericks ? |
| 12:42 | puredanger | it's mostly historical why certain things (like clojure.test, clojure.xml, etc) are in the std lib instead of in external libs |
| 12:43 | gfredericks | munderwood: makes the ecosystem more complicated, and doesn't seem obviously useful; what sort of person has serious need for contrib libs but nothing else? |
| 12:43 | puredanger | gfredericks: that seems to be largely the consensus |
| 12:44 | puredanger | it solves the "easy" at the expense of the "simple" :) |
| 12:44 | johnwalker | it might make sense to create bundles of things though |
| 12:44 | puredanger | in some ways old contrib was this, right? |
| 12:44 | johnwalker | like a web bundle that would include reviewed versions of compojure, friend etc |
| 12:44 | munderwood | how does (and I admit this is a simple example) having a built in json serializer make the ecosystem more complicated vs three different libs that all do json serilazing? |
| 12:44 | puredanger | johnwalker: you could do that now by creating a lib that merely had dependencies but no source and would pull things in transitively |
| 12:45 | johnwalker | agreed |
| 12:45 | puredanger | munderwood: json is a good example - data.json is more official looking but cheshire is more used |
| 12:45 | puredanger | (I think mostly b/c it has an option to make maps with keywords?) |
| 12:45 | munderwood | Ahh I think we are talking about something different. Im talking about a stdlib rather than multiple bundles |
| 12:45 | gfredericks | puredanger: it is rumored to be faster |
| 12:45 | gfredericks | I've never seen data on that |
| 12:46 | technomancy | jackson has been around since forever |
| 12:46 | hiredman | puredanger: https://github.com/dakrone/cheshire#speed |
| 12:46 | hiredman | er |
| 12:46 | hiredman | gfredericks: https://github.com/dakrone/cheshire#speed |
| 12:46 | munderwood | Im arguing that there is justification to have basic things built into the clojure std lib. |
| 12:46 | hiredman | puredanger: dakrone is super resposive for all the libraries he maintains |
| 12:46 | gfredericks | hiredman: thanks |
| 12:47 | munderwood | I agree that having a bunch of seperate bundles would be more confusing. |
| 12:47 | puredanger | hiredman: agreed and I use cheshire more than data.json myself |
| 12:47 | gfredericks | munderwood: that forces those things to have the same slow update cycle as clojure |
| 12:47 | technomancy | munderwood: it might make sense, but the core team has an attitude towards copyright assignment that makes that very impractical |
| 12:47 | hiredman | munderwood: clojure using maven repos has a much better dependency management story than python |
| 12:48 | tbaldrid_ | munderwood: yeah, some may think that, but the nice thing with small libs is the response time |
| 12:48 | hiredman | given a better dependency management system, it makes more sense to break things up |
| 12:48 | tbaldrid_ | better to have 100 mutexes instead of a GIL ;-) |
| 12:49 | munderwood | I can see the logic. From a new user perspective its just hard to know which libs to use over others. Thats the downside. which makes adoption hard. |
| 12:50 | puredanger | I think most separable pieces in the std lib (test, xml, etc) would be better served outside the std lib |
| 12:50 | technomancy | munderwood: it's not that hard, you just ask on IRC and use that. =) |
| 12:50 | tbaldrid_ | munderwood: because it requires a bit of research? And you still get that problem in other languages as well. I may not always want python's builtin json reader. So I should still do my research |
| 12:50 | munderwood | technomancy: ha, I guess thats what I did :) |
| 12:51 | Glenjamin | basically: the discovery problem is a better problem to have than slow moving core libs |
| 12:51 | tbaldrid_ | (dotimes [x 100] (inc Glenjamin)) |
| 12:51 | hiredman | well, it doesn't matter |
| 12:52 | hiredman | which json library you use, unless it does |
| 12:52 | Glenjamin | heh |
| 12:52 | philandstuff | did anyone mention clojure toolbox yet? |
| 12:52 | hiredman | if it does matter, you'll have some hard requirements that drive you to a particular solution |
| 12:52 | hiredman | if you don't have those requirements, it doesn't matter |
| 12:52 | munderwood | tbaldrid_: Look I get doing reseach. And thats essentially what I did. reseach is a lot easier when your experienced at clojure, you know who/what to look for in the ecosystem. I think your underestimating the knowledge gap. |
| 12:53 | philandstuff | http://www.clojure-toolbox.com/ |
| 12:53 | philandstuff | ^ makes doing research much easier |
| 12:53 | munderwood | I know about clojure toolbox. I found its list, there are three json libs. which one do I choose? |
| 12:53 | technomancy | munderwood: I would use http://www.clojuresphere.com/ instead |
| 12:53 | technomancy | it has some issues, but you can see which are the most widely-used |
| 12:54 | philandstuff | technomancy: ooh ta, that looks useful too |
| 12:54 | hiredman | the best must be what is most widely used |
| 12:54 | technomancy | hiredman: well, assuming you can't ask on IRC for whatever reason |
| 12:54 | hiredman | right? I mean, this is a meritocracy is it not? |
| 12:54 | technomancy | someone really needs to add decay to that though. just ignore the swank-clojure entry =\ |
| 12:54 | tbaldridge | munderwood: that's the problem with any tech/library. You should almost always do one of two things: a) just grab one and run with it until it gives your problems. 2) read the README.md of every option weighing the pros/cons of each. If a given library does list it's design decisions move to another lib |
| 12:54 | technomancy | and the midje one |
| 12:55 | tbaldridge | *doesn't list |
| 12:55 | tbaldridge | every tech has a tradeoff, find that tradeoff and think about if you're comfortable with it, or if you really don't care, then just grab something |
| 12:56 | hiredman | the reality is, there are three json libraries, and you basically may as well pick one at random, you will in 85% of cases be just fine |
| 12:56 | tbaldridge | If cheshire is faster than data.json does it matter if you're parsing 400bytes of data? |
| 12:56 | munderwood | Im really only bringing this up as I think this is probably something that the clojure community needs to have a think about. Getting up to speed on clojure can have some gaps IMHO. All these suggestions are welcome and I really love clojure. |
| 12:56 | AeroNotix | munderwood: there are 10 JSON ruby libraries, I don't know ruby. Which do I use? |
| 12:57 | technomancy | there are like seventeen brands of cereal |
| 12:57 | AeroNotix | Clojure doesn't *specifically* have this problem. Open sores isn't a bastion of pristine codebases or anything like that, it's a toilet filled with people throwing shit at the wall until a library falls out |
| 12:57 | hiredman | I don't think the clojure community needs more people wringing their hands about the experience for people new to the language |
| 12:57 | puredanger | munderwood: if you want to drop me a line about gaps, I'm happy to hear stuff like that alex.miller@cognitect.com and hopefully improve things |
| 12:57 | tbaldridge | "Open sores" I am sooooo using that in the future |
| 12:58 | AeroNotix | asking the community to curate a list of packages so you don't have to do research is, frankly, quite a bit selfish and needy |
| 12:58 | AeroNotix | tbaldridge: /me bows |
| 12:58 | technomancy | this is why pagerank exists, innit? |
| 12:58 | AeroNotix | technomancy: (inc technomancy) |
| 12:58 | AeroNotix | dammit |
| 12:58 | AeroNotix | ,(inc technomancy) |
| 12:58 | TimMc | technomancy: Pagerank needs a decay boost when it comes to software. |
| 12:58 | clojurebot | #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: technomancy in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)> |
| 12:58 | AeroNotix | WHATEVER |
| 12:58 | TimMc | (inc inc) |
| 12:58 | lazybot | ⇒ 9 |
| 12:58 | technomancy | TimMc: yeah, but it's a starting point at least |
| 12:59 | TimMc | (inc () |
| 12:59 | lazybot | ⇒ 1 |
| 12:59 | munderwood | puredanger: sure no problems. I didnt want this to come across like this. I was just hoping to highlight some of the issues I have come up against. I'll have a think about some ways I can help out with this. |
| 12:59 | TimMc | $karma ( |
| 12:59 | lazybot | ( has karma 1. |
| 12:59 | hiredman | given that the people who wring their hands about the experience for new people are either new people that don't know clojure (well of course learning new things isn't as easy as just using stuff you already know) or people pushing their own pet theory of what a language should be in a backwards way |
| 13:00 | AeroNotix | hiredman: I wholeheartedly agree with that |
| 13:00 | AeroNotix | it's why we now have millions of idiots writing JavaScript and Node applications and shoving them in our faces |
| 13:00 | TimMc | hiredman: ...and people who hang out in the IRC channel and see noobs beating their heads against the same problems over and over again. |
| 13:01 | puredanger | hiredman: I disagree. I'm interested in it and just want more people to be more successful with Clojure. |
| 13:01 | TimMc | (Some of which are basically inevitable, others of which should get fixed!) |
| 13:01 | hiredman | TimMc: sure, that is why math teachers keep trying to change how math works, right? |
| 13:01 | TimMc | I don't know much about the history of math education. |
| 13:01 | puredanger | TimMc: not enough monads I hear |
| 13:01 | tbaldridge | and I think there is much room for improvement in Clojure on the newbie front. Making design choices for users is not one of those |
| 13:01 | TimMc | I do know that it currently sucks. |
| 13:02 | hiredman | I am not saying nothing needs changing, I am saying doing it for the newbs is poor justification, since we all are here and newbs are only passing through |
| 13:02 | hiredman | (either they stop being newbs at some point or they leave) |
| 13:02 | technomancy | that's a bit self-fulfilling |
| 13:02 | technomancy | maybe the newbs are only passing through because things suck so much |
| 13:03 | hiredman | technomancy: passing through meaning they cease to be newbs, not that they leave |
| 13:03 | TimMc | Maybe we only end up with people who really like editing their init.el file and similar experiences. |
| 13:03 | allensb | I'm a newb with Clojure. Shouldn't the Devs that have spent months more than me researching all this stuff give the newbs advice? If I need a library I don't necessarily want to spend 3 days of research to pick the right one. Don't always have time. |
| 13:03 | TimMc | allensb: I hear that, but there are more newbs than experts, and burnout sucks. |
| 13:04 | allensb | Yeah, I can see that. |
| 13:04 | TimMc | It doesn't help that some are Help Vampires. http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/eoc/help_vampire.htm |
| 13:04 | technomancy | TimMc: that seems a lot less common in here than some communities |
| 13:04 | tbaldridge | allensb: pay me some money and I'll be more than glad to make all your research for you ;-) |
| 13:05 | TimMc | Yeah, definitely not as bad here as in Java land. |
| 13:05 | hiredman | tbaldridge: haha, I was just debating hitting enter on that |
| 13:06 | hiredman | newbiness is a state you pass through, it is not some fundamental defining use case to optimize for |
| 13:06 | allensb | tbaldridge: haha. As a newb I've found the best way to learn Clojure is to watch the million videos on it out there. We didn't have anything like that when I started my career 10 years ago. |
| 13:06 | tbaldridge | hiredman: I'll look like the jerk today, you can have a turn tomorrow |
| 13:07 | hiredman | I was a newbie once, I like to think I have not been a newb for much longer than I was now |
| 13:07 | technomancy | just gonna leave this here https://twitter.com/seriouspony/status/476453906554159104 |
| 13:07 | allensb | So basic rule, at least do some dang research first before asking a question. |
| 13:08 | philandstuff | hiredman: clojure is competing for people willing to learn it. if the dropout rate of newbs is too high, the community will not grow. |
| 13:08 | puredanger | the community is clearly growing |
| 13:08 | puredanger | there are (and likely always will be) more things we can do |
| 13:08 | hiredman | it is just like a company who optimizes for getting new customers without taking care of existing customers |
| 13:08 | technomancy | philandstuff: or worse, we'll self-select for people who like pain |
| 13:08 | technomancy | like erlang has |
| 13:09 | allensb | It's growing. I'm a C# Dev and have been obsessed with Clojure the last 2 months. |
| 13:09 | philandstuff | puredanger: agreed |
| 13:09 | munderwood | Im fine with trying to learn an ecosystem. And actually I was trying to phrase my questions in a non-confrontational way (which I find is hard on IRC). My original questions were trying to understand the logic behind how things are packaged. |
| 13:09 | technomancy | munderwood: I don't think they were unreasonable questions. the contrib model is weird and political. |
| 13:10 | hiredman | philandstuff: if clojure needed a lot of work for newbies, I submit to you, that #clojure would not be constantly full of newbies learning clojure (who all put in their two cents about what it should be) |
| 13:10 | puredanger | technomancy: that's a matter of opinion. although maybe that makes it political somehow. :) |
| 13:10 | mdrogalis | Yeah, I always found contrib really odd. It elevates libs that sometimes don't merit that level of attention. |
| 13:11 | ToxicFrog | If we're talking about "ways to make clojure more newbie-friendly",things like getting the compiler to not crash on syntax errors is higher priority than library organization, IMO. |
| 13:11 | hiredman | obviously clojure already has appeal and manages to pull in lots of new "customers" |
| 13:11 | munderwood | putting things inside a std lib to be available is a tradeoff. Putting things outside a stdlib is also a tradeoff. Obviously at the moment clojure has chosen one over the other. I mean that in the most neutral way possible |
| 13:12 | puredanger | mdrogalis: i think perhaps the misunderstanding is that contrib == elevation whereas it really means "same license/contrib model" |
| 13:12 | tbaldridge | Well I guess there's nothing stopping anyone from creating a project called [kitchen-sink "0.1.0"] that simply pulls in every single contrib library that would be about on par with Python. |
| 13:12 | gfredericks | I've heard contrib advertised as "guaranteed support" |
| 13:12 | hiredman | puredanger: which is amusing since the contrib model is what every hates about contrib :) |
| 13:12 | technomancy | puredanger: it doesn't though; it means "some subset of projects with the same license/contrib model" |
| 13:12 | mdrogalis | puredanger: Correct. Obvious to people who have been around for a while, completely blurry to someone new. |
| 13:13 | hiredman | puredanger: and by everyone I mean the vocal complainers in #clojure about jira and prs and etc |
| 13:13 | puredanger | gfredericks: who/where? |
| 13:13 | gfredericks | puredanger: abedra, talking to me |
| 13:13 | philandstuff | hiredman: I'm just saying that throwing newbs under a bus is a strategy that would have consequences. I don't think we are throwing them under a bus, I just don't want us to start. |
| 13:14 | mikerod | ToxicFrog: I do not think that "clj doesn't design to please newbs" argument is a valid reason to have bad exception handling and messages. Good design should attempt to give good feedback for illegal conditions. e.g. I don't think class cast or null pointer exceptions are necessarily the way to go most of the time. |
| 13:14 | mdrogalis | mikerod: So, to be fair, when Rich was building Clojure and had no attention on him, I'm sure he had many dark nights where errors messages weren't a priority. |
| 13:15 | ToxicFrog | mikerod: I entirely agree, and I don't think that this is just a "for the newbies" issue. But if we are talking about ways to make things more newbie-friendly, it's still a big issue. |
| 13:15 | mikerod | Compiler exceptions aside, the rest of the arguments about clj don't usually hold up in my opinion. There has to be a strong willingness to learn when trying to approach a new language that you intend to use professionally. I think your goal with a new language should be to become an expert. |
| 13:15 | munderwood | Thanks for all your help. When I have some more constructive things to add, i'll get in touch. |
| 13:15 | munderwood | time for lunch in Miami :) |
| 13:15 | mdrogalis | munderwood: Niiice. |
| 13:16 | gfredericks | wait crap am I supposed to be in Miami right now? |
| 13:16 | mikerod | mdrogalis: yes, I'm sure that the exceptions were put on the "back-burner" when trying to get the language up and running. |
| 13:16 | mikerod | Which makes sense. |
| 13:16 | gfredericks | clojure-with-bad-error-reporting has the competitive advantage over clojure-with-good-error-reporting that it exists |
| 13:17 | mikerod | I cringe a bit nowadays when I read about some new language that starts of advertising how it "uses a similar syntax from the C-family that you're familiar with" - as if this is a good thing. |
| 13:17 | technomancy | gfredericks: I think the ontological argument only works with deities last I checked. |
| 13:17 | mikerod | Or "you assign to a variable, just like you typically would in Java!" - yuck. |
| 13:20 | arrdem | is there an architecture note/history somewhere on why KeywordLookupSite exists? |
| 13:20 | gfredericks | (inc technomancy) |
| 13:20 | lazybot | ⇒ 119 |
| 13:20 | gfredericks | arrdem: that's defrecord related amirite? |
| 13:21 | arrdem | gfredericks: if I knew I wouldn't be asking |
| 13:21 | gfredericks | I have the hazy notion in my head that keyword lookup on defrecords is special-cased more than vanilla maps |
| 13:21 | arrdem | yeah it is. hum... |
| 13:22 | gfredericks | it's counterintuitive to me that you can somehow do better than a case statement inside the record's #get method |
| 13:22 | tbaldridge | arrdem: it's basically callsite caching |
| 13:23 | Glenjamin | there's two types of people learning clojure, people who wanted to, and people who were told by the people who wanted to how good it was |
| 13:23 | Glenjamin | i reckon the second group (which i just made up), could be better served |
| 13:24 | technomancy | some day we'll have people learning clojure because their bosses made them |
| 13:24 | arrdem | glod willing |
| 13:25 | Glenjamin | i reckon clojure is pretty smooth after an initial bump |
| 13:25 | hiredman | isn't KeywordCallSite dead code these days? |
| 13:25 | Glenjamin | learning-curve-wise |
| 13:25 | mikerod | technomancy: I can't wait for such an exciting day |
| 13:26 | hiredman | ah, nope, just missed it |
| 13:26 | Glenjamin | my boss suggested to me that we try should maybe try some clojurescript |
| 13:26 | arrdem | tbaldridge: hum... is this doing anything more than dynamically creating a .get specialization? it doesn't seem to be and that's only saving one cast and check. |
| 13:26 | gfredericks | technomancy: that already happens, just not sooper common |
| 13:26 | bob2 | we have some people like that already at work |
| 13:26 | Glenjamin | but i have no idea if you can cleanly mix clojurescript into an existing JS project without a horrible toolchain |
| 13:26 | bob2 | since we vetoed scala |
| 13:26 | gfredericks | I learned clojure in 2010 or something because my boss told me to |
| 13:27 | technomancy | mikerod: I dunno, it's kinda scary |
| 13:28 | mikerod | oh interesting |
| 13:29 | Glenjamin | where (geographically) are you based gfredericks ? |
| 13:29 | mikerod | Well, I guess I came into a job position where the project I am working on is in clj. So I was told to learn it I guess too... I just never thought of it that way. woops |
| 13:29 | gfredericks | Glenjamin: Chicago |
| 13:29 | mikerod | I just watched a bunch (all) of the Rich Hickey videos out there first. |
| 13:30 | mikerod | At that point, I was onboard with being willing to learn things. |
| 13:30 | gfredericks | mikerod: yeah I guess some people look at "learn this thing" as an opportunity/excuse rather than a requirement |
| 13:30 | bridgethillyer | I’m confused about something. I don’t understand why anyone would not want to improve the beginner experience for Clojure. |
| 13:30 | bridgethillyer | Is it that there are scarce resources to apply, so if we choose to do that, we choose to not do something more important? |
| 13:31 | mdrogalis | bridgethillyer: It's mostly disagreement about how to accomplish that, I guess. |
| 13:31 | mikerod | gfredericks: Yes. I was excited to get to try something new. |
| 13:32 | bridgethillyer | mdrogalis: ah, ok. That definitely makes sense. I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about it, and I still feel kinda clueless. |
| 13:32 | mikerod | bridgethillyer: I think documentation and better exceptions are very valid concerns. I think a lot of other arguments are just around the fact that the language embraces some concepts that are unfamiliar to the mainstream. Those concepts are by design and need to be understood, not worked around. |
| 13:33 | puredanger | technomancy: (et al) sorry I dropped out of the conv above; was on a call |
| 13:33 | mdrogalis | bridgethillyer: There's also the "Well, I had to learn it this way, so you have to, too." mentality. But I don't see a lot of that around these parts. |
| 13:33 | hiredman | bridgethillyer: well yes, time devoted to something is not devoted to something else, but also I object to it being the main motivating factor, newbiness is a temporary state that people pass through, so orienting the language around it means sure the langauge will grow a lot, but what good is it to the people who aren't newbies anymore |
| 13:34 | Glenjamin | i think the focus needs to be on streamlining that journey |
| 13:35 | Glenjamin | but even for non-newbies, the errors you get from a malformed (ns) are appalling |
| 13:35 | hiredman | basically, I think, my objection is "newbie" is not specific enough to be a real useful use case |
| 13:35 | bridgethillyer | hiredman: I think there is value to more senior people to have newbs around |
| 13:35 | hiredman | bridgethillyer: sure |
| 13:35 | mikerod | With Clojure, I've tended to always "try to get to the bottom" of whatever issue I'm having that I don't understand. This has often came down to reading the source code, digging through the Compiler etc. I think all of this investigation and reading has made me a lot more proficient at the language nowadays. |
| 13:36 | mikerod | So maybe this is clj's secret way of teaching newbies. The lesson is in the digging. |
| 13:36 | Glenjamin | mikerod: i think that's a great way to learn, but that most people dont/wont want to do that |
| 13:36 | hiredman | bridgethillyer: but to drive change in the language by worrying about the use experience of a poorly defined newbie group, that is a temporary phase people pass through |
| 13:36 | allensb | I would call the bump: Rich Hickey's Youtube Talks. |
| 13:37 | hiredman | bridgethillyer: part of the value for senior people is it is rewarding watching newbs stop being newbs |
| 13:37 | mdrogalis | lol |
| 13:37 | mikerod | Glenjamin: Yes, I think if all you do is a read a bunch of documentation and come away with the idea that "I'm not going to worry about how this works - its magic to me", you probably aren't going to get the most out of your tool. |
| 13:37 | bridgethillyer | hiredman: I think you’re exactly right that we need to define who we’re addressing. |
| 13:37 | mikerod | by tool I mean language* |
| 13:38 | mikerod | Rich Hickeys' talks are great. And there are many others beyond that. |
| 13:38 | technomancy | mikerod: except it is literally impossible to get anything done without doing that on some level |
| 13:38 | Glenjamin | i think selling the philosophy isn't too hard, but i think there's a large set of people who aren't as conscious that they experience the problems that rich talks about |
| 13:38 | mikerod | technomancy: true, for some things. I'm not sure I feel that way at the level of the language you use though. Not the fundamental parts of the language at least. |
| 13:38 | technomancy | it's literally no longer humanly impossible to be a "full stack" expert |
| 13:38 | technomancy | even if you cut it off at the hardware level |
| 13:39 | allensb | mikerod: Those talks are just the base. If someone started to look at Clojure that is the first thing I would tell them to do. |
| 13:39 | hiredman | bridgethillyer: I don't think the language / community should be hostile to newbies, but we should get them to stop being newbies as soon as possible in a language that rewards expertise |
| 13:39 | mikerod | technomancy: yeah, there certainly has to be some lines of abstraction you draw as magic |
| 13:39 | mikerod | some places |
| 13:39 | bridgethillyer | I’m totally comfortable with some people being turned off by Clojure (or whatever aspects of the ecosystem). I’m not a big fan of anything “for everybody” |
| 13:39 | mikerod | allensb: I agree |
| 13:39 | Glenjamin | if i never had to go read the clojure.lang java classes, that'd be nice |
| 13:40 | technomancy | mikerod: maybe "I wish I could spend the time to understand this, but I am a human with a limited lifespan" is a good compromise. =) |
| 13:40 | bridgethillyer | My concern is with people who would get a lot out of the language/ecosystem who are turned away for reasons that can be fixed |
| 13:40 | mikerod | technomancy: haha, maybe the real problem to solve then is the "limited lifespan" part |
| 13:41 | Glenjamin | life is too short to really grok the details of the JVM's GC? |
| 13:41 | technomancy | mikerod: on the other hand, there's something to be said for "isn't it great that there are these abstractions we can just rely on to work reliably without having to tear them apart and rebuild them in our heads from the ground up?" |
| 13:42 | bridgethillyer | hiredman: good point. Removing impediments to that would make sense then. |
| 13:42 | mikerod | technomancy: Yeah, I know what you're saying. I guess its just important to weigh the tradeoff when deciding whether or not the abstraction is worth understanding. I feel that I can use clj without having in depth understanding of how persistent data structures are implemented though. |
| 13:42 | mikerod | However, I think the compiler "lifecycle" should be understood pretty well. |
| 13:42 | technomancy | mikerod: IMO the value of understanding how the abstraction works is proportional to the likelihood of it breaking down =) |
| 13:43 | technomancy | just like with machines, the more likely it is to break, the more valuable the repair skill is. |
| 13:43 | mikerod | technomancy: sounds reasonable |
| 13:43 | gfredericks | I don't lose sleep at night worrying about the filesystem not working |
| 13:43 | technomancy | well, break or benefit from improvement in some way |
| 13:44 | technomancy | like... you pretty much have to understand way more about how browsers work, because the abstractions they use are crap |
| 13:44 | {blake} | Why are records NOT functions that accept their field names as parameters? i.e., why can you say "my-map :some-field" but not "my-record :some-field"? |
| 13:44 | hiredman | bridgethillyer: hows clojurebridge going? (I heard the cognicast episode a while back) |
| 13:44 | gfredericks | {blake}: I don't know why, but I don't think it's bad |
| 13:44 | bridgethillyer | hiredman: There have been a number of workshops |
| 13:45 | mdrogalis | technomancy: We should start ClojureBridge Seattle. |
| 13:45 | gfredericks | {blake}: I think clojure maps are roughly used in two different ways, and that records address one of those, while IFn addresses the other |
| 13:45 | bridgethillyer | hiredman: We have some issues with the curriculum. Mainly, it’s a two-day curriculum, but it’s only a one-day workshop. |
| 13:45 | technomancy | mdrogalis: but then we'd have to find new meeting space for seajure =\ |
| 13:45 | bridgethillyer | hiredman: so we’re working on that. More workshops coming together for the fall |
| 13:45 | bridgethillyer | hiredman: thanks for asking :) |
| 13:45 | mikerod | {blake}: wow, I didn't know that records weren't functions |
| 13:45 | hiredman | sure, I can imagine it is a lot to take in for one day |
| 13:46 | mdrogalis | technomancy: We are the plebes of PNW :( |
| 13:46 | hiredman | bridgethillyer: is the curriculum based on anything in particular? |
| 13:46 | gfredericks | ,(defrecord Blake [a b] clojure.lang.IFn (invoke [this k] (get this k))) |
| 13:46 | clojurebot | sandbox.Blake |
| 13:46 | gfredericks | ,((Blake. 1 2) :b) |
| 13:46 | clojurebot | 2 |
| 13:46 | mikerod | gfredericks: I'd have just expected that behavior hah, wonder why it was left off |
| 13:46 | gfredericks | mikerod: I speculated above |
| 13:46 | mikerod | oh |
| 13:46 | bridgethillyer | hiredman: the teaching/training experience of people who have taught Clojure before |
| 13:47 | {blake} | mikerod, Maybe flexibility? You wouldn't always want it? |
| 13:47 | {blake} | gfredericks, Thanks, I didn't know you could dothat. |
| 13:47 | mikerod | gfredericks: I see what you're saying. However, I thought when records were designed they were meant to be able to be a "drop in replacement" for the places you were using maps before. |
| 13:47 | mikerod | When you decided later a record was more appropriate that is. |
| 13:47 | arrdem | being able to define a custom set of invoke implementations without defrecord checking for conflict/replacement |
| 13:47 | gfredericks | yeah there's a few other ways they're not |
| 13:47 | jasoncof | I just added ring.middleware.defaults to my app and now I'm getting this strange 'java.lang.IllegalAccessError: in-seconds does not exist, compiling:(ring/middleware/cookies.clj:1:1)' error. Any ideas? |
| 13:48 | bridgethillyer | hiredman: rather, the people who are teaching the workshops who have developed the curriculum |
| 13:48 | mikerod | I've never ran across this, meaning I've never tried to use a record as a fn. I've used a good amount of records before too. So this must not be a common usage for me anyways. :P |
| 13:48 | gfredericks | mikerod: yeah I think IFn makes more sense for homogeneous maps |
| 13:50 | Glenjamin | presumably you can extend IFn to your own maps? |
| 13:50 | hiredman | make sense, I am not even sure where I would start, I've only really once written something expository at length about part of clojure and it is difficult to figure out where to draw lines and delineate concepts |
| 13:50 | Glenjamin | erm, own records |
| 13:50 | gfredericks | Glenjamin: I just did that above |
| 13:50 | Glenjamin | so you did |
| 13:50 | Glenjamin | missed that one :) |
| 13:56 | MC-Escherichia | I have a stupid question about records...how do I make something like a record in Java to trick my coworkers |
| 13:56 | gfredericks | O_O |
| 13:56 | gfredericks | MC-Escherichia: I think that is not quite specific enough |
| 13:57 | MC-Escherichia | I want to say new Record("Name","field1","field2") and then be able to say new Name(1,"test") |
| 13:59 | MC-Escherichia | and then be able to access the fields as fields, or keywords |
| 13:59 | MC-Escherichia | and trhat' |
| 13:59 | MC-Escherichia | s all the functionality I need |
| 13:59 | hiredman | MC-Escherichia: I would look at https://github.com/boundary/fasttuple |
| 14:00 | Bronsa | mikerod: I'm reading the backlog, do you still need help with t.a.j? |
| 14:01 | MC-Escherichia | hiredman: even better than what I was thinking |
| 14:01 | MC-Escherichia | thanks |
| 14:05 | noprompt_ | is `prim-seq` intended to be public in clojurescript? |
| 14:07 | hiredman | dnolen_: why announce that something will be announced? wouldn't it make more sense to save the announcing until there is something to announce? |
| 14:10 | cbp | but the hype train |
| 14:11 | Frozenlock | Tsk tsk tsk. The real way to do it it to announce something will be announced, and THEN announce that something will really be announced. Announception |
| 14:13 | gfredericks | the rhickey keynote description is interesting |
| 14:13 | hiredman | to be fair, at least it isn't hyping a talk by rich where the subject is TBD, or "something big we've been working on at cognitect" there is actually an abstract with some detail, but does it need a pre-announcement? |
| 14:14 | gfredericks | mainly because it sounds exactly like how edn is advertised |
| 14:15 | puredanger | the talk will be the announcement |
| 14:15 | PigDude | i find myslef making APIs where there is a multimethod that dispatches on *identity* of first argument |
| 14:16 | PigDude | i end up writing this function a lot: (defn identity-mm [o & _] o) |
| 14:16 | PigDude | is this common? |
| 14:16 | amalloy | PigDude: that seems a little weird, but not outrageous |
| 14:16 | PigDude | it's all over my code. the pattern is some-method :sym -> ProtocolImpl |
| 14:16 | gfredericks | (def identity-mm (comp first list)) |
| 14:16 | PigDude | and then the rest of the API is from the protocol or built on it |
| 14:16 | puredanger | PigDude: why not use "case" instead? |
| 14:17 | PigDude | puredanger: multimethods are extensible? i don't understand what you are asking |
| 14:17 | puredanger | PigDude: that's a good answer (also would have accepted: custom hierarchies) :) |
| 14:17 | amalloy | PigDude: i don't understand your "pattern" some-method :sym -> ProtocolImpl |
| 14:17 | amalloy | it just looks like three symbols and a keyword, not related in any obvious way |
| 14:18 | hiredman | PigDude: people will understand it better if you say it is an lisp interpreter dispatching on the first of a list |
| 14:18 | PigDude | amalloy: (my-lib/make-thing :fluffy) => FluffyThing, (-> (my-lib/make-thing :fluffy) my-lib/proto-meth ...) |
| 14:18 | PigDude | so user doesn't have to do (FluffyTHing.) directly |
| 14:19 | hiredman | PigDude: defrecord creates factory functions |
| 14:19 | amalloy | yeah, just use a function |
| 14:19 | mikerod | Bronsa: I think my questions were mostly cleared up. The first thing I requested was for a way to have t.a.j. "ignore" symbols that weren't in scope. - This seems to be a messy use-case and I probably just need to create/generate the appropriate environment first. |
| 14:19 | PigDude | hiredman: maybe is ruby experience but (f :thing) is easier to read than (->Thing) and end user doesn't have to know the name of Thing |
| 14:20 | hiredman | PigDude: :thing is a name |
| 14:20 | amalloy | there's no reason to have one multimethod with N bodies instead of N functions |
| 14:20 | mikerod | Bronsa: My second question was around if imported Java class symbols would be fully-qualified when emitted. |
| 14:20 | hiredman | so you either need to know the name of a function or some random keyword |
| 14:20 | mikerod | Bronsa: I think I was seeing that they weren't. However, I didn't have the :import decls in the env at that time. So I'm thinking I just need to ensure I have the appropriate env passed to analyze. |
| 14:20 | PigDude | also w/ (f :thing) i can change implementation of f later and user never knows |
| 14:20 | PigDude | can't do that w/ ->Thing |
| 14:20 | mikerod | Then I'm hoping that the Java class sym's will be analyzed in their fully-qualified representation. |
| 14:20 | hiredman | PigDude: you can |
| 14:21 | hiredman | (defn ->Thing [& _] (launch-the-bombs)) |
| 14:21 | amalloy | PigDude: or just (defn make-thing [] (Thing.)). the name of the function doesn't have to be ->Thing |
| 14:21 | PigDude | ok, i see what you're saying |
| 14:21 | amalloy | but it should be a function, not this weird multimethod with special keywords. at least your IDE can help you track down function implementations |
| 14:21 | PigDude | but my library has a config api, and i like users to be able to say :serializer :json, not :serializer MyLibJsonSerializer |
| 14:22 | PigDude | so :json is mapping to the multimethod |
| 14:22 | PigDude | what's the cleaner way to accom;ish this? |
| 14:22 | PigDude | sounds like there is one |
| 14:22 | hiredman | any way, a common case for dispatching on identity is some kind of interpreter, which is what your factory thing is |
| 14:22 | hiredman | PigDude: what users? |
| 14:22 | PigDude | hiredman: right now internal but there's a good chance this will be open sourced |
| 14:22 | Bronsa | mikerod: re: 1, if you're interested in how to construct a "fake" environment, core.async does it you might want to look it up |
| 14:22 | PigDude | hiredman: generic log store |
| 14:23 | puredanger | why not mechanically convert the keyword to a constructor name and invoke it? |
| 14:23 | PigDude | i could, here's why i originally used mms |
| 14:23 | mikerod | Bronsa: oh, awesome. I will definitely look at that. |
| 14:23 | PigDude | clojure seems to encourage (defmethod foo :json ...) for this sort of extension, not adding :json => JsonSerialzier to some global map? |
| 14:23 | puredanger | PigDude: I mean in a way that does not require you to add a new case every time |
| 14:23 | PigDude | i don't know, what other means do i have? |
| 14:24 | PigDude | i want end users to be able to provide their own serialziers, etc |
| 14:24 | hiredman | PigDude: I would either stick to namespaces, or move to something like component |
| 14:24 | amalloy | PigDude: you can also eval your config file, instead of just reading it. that makes things a lot more extensible for the user: they have the whole language available. and then they can just use a function there |
| 14:24 | PigDude | so a case :a 1 :b 2 ... doesnt' cut it |
| 14:24 | Bronsa | mikerod: re: you're right, emit-form doesn't actually qualify classes, I must have missed that |
| 14:24 | hiredman | https://github.com/stuartsierra/component |
| 14:24 | PigDude | it sounds like there's no firm way to do this |
| 14:24 | PigDude | so mine is as good as any other |
| 14:24 | PigDude | or am i wrong? |
| 14:25 | Bronsa | mikerod: I'll change that in the next release, in the meantime if you need it you can just monkey-patch the emit-form multimethod |
| 14:25 | PigDude | component looks like a framework framework |
| 14:25 | PigDude | no thanks |
| 14:25 | mikerod | Bronsa: ah, that's helpful. I was about to check it out in a bit. Yes, I was thinking if it didn't, I was going to try to alter one of the multimethods that were responsible |
| 14:25 | hiredman | PigDude: well, what you are building is a DI system |
| 14:25 | PigDude | that's fair |
| 14:25 | hiredman | PigDude: but your multimethod lacks a way to specify dependencies |
| 14:26 | PigDude | every software that injects dependencies is a DI system? |
| 14:26 | hiredman | PigDude: or let your users pass in an environment map |
| 14:26 | PigDude | i don't think i need turtles all the way down .. |
| 14:27 | hiredman | {:json-encode ... :json-decode ...} |
| 14:27 | PigDude | i just need a clean basic implementation, and right now the one alternative i have is an obscure library |
| 14:27 | dogonthehorizon | Hey folks, I'm trying to be clever and format a sequence of strings into another string using the format form but I keep getting errors from the formatter. Here's the relevant snippet: https://gist.github.com/dogonthehorizon/c205387c4c5ade8147be . Is it because sequences are lazy and it's not being realized at the point that format is being called? |
| 14:27 | hiredman | the multimethod approach is gross because each multimethod lives in a single globally def'ed var |
| 14:27 | hiredman | so you can only have one definition in a clojure runtime |
| 14:27 | PigDude | what does that mean to the library user? |
| 14:27 | PigDude | one definition of what? |
| 14:28 | amalloy | dogonthehorizon: you only gave it one thing to format, a sequence |
| 14:28 | dogonthehorizon | amalloy: So (seq args) will not expand the sequence? |
| 14:28 | amalloy | you want (apply format ... args), to give it six things to format |
| 14:28 | hiredman | PigDude: if I am building system A out of systems B and C, both of which use your library and provide their own (defmethod … :json …) I may be screwed |
| 14:28 | PigDude | i see what you're saying hiredman but i think you're focusing on corner cases |
| 14:29 | dogonthehorizon | amalloy: Oh, that makes a surprising amount of sense. Thanks! |
| 14:29 | amalloy | dogonthehorizon: no function in clojure can return an "expand" view of its stuff, because a function can only return one thing |
| 14:29 | PigDude | hiredman: is there a standard clojure way to overcome this? or just using complex stuff like this component library? |
| 14:29 | amalloy | for example, seq just returns a sequential view of its argument, or nil if it's empty |
| 14:29 | PigDude | hiredman: (this global mm definition limitation) |
| 14:30 | gfredericks | protocols have the same problem |
| 14:30 | PigDude | oh ok |
| 14:30 | PigDude | so, a problem, but not really a problem |
| 14:30 | PigDude | a perceived problem |
| 14:30 | hiredman | PigDude: the component library is a possible approach, and it is really not very complex, it is less than 200 lines of code |
| 14:30 | amalloy | gfredericks: what? protocols don't have any such problem, because there's no dispatch values that can be overlapping |
| 14:30 | hiredman | PigDude: is a real problem |
| 14:30 | amalloy | they share one var, but you can pass in arbitrary instances |
| 14:30 | PigDude | hiredman: maybe good to measure library complexity in terms of number of lines in README :) |
| 14:30 | gfredericks | amalloy: the different libraries extending a third library the same way problem |
| 14:31 | PigDude | gfredericks: i think node has a clean solution for this? |
| 14:31 | puredanger | amalloy: isn't that false due to Java hierarchies? |
| 14:31 | hiredman | PigDude: another possible approach is making the environment an explicit parameter, so the user can choose what to pass in |
| 14:31 | Bronsa | mikerod: https://github.com/clojure/tools.analyzer.jvm/commit/df55bf039f0eb9aa6c161c363bee3e53629477e6#diff-c5f5c869e9024d37ac35f3f9344df50fR43 |
| 14:31 | MrJones98 | anyone here have som experience with clara-rules? |
| 14:31 | amalloy | puredanger: huh? |
| 14:31 | PigDude | hiredman: yea, you mentioned that ... what is the environment? this was vague to me |
| 14:31 | amalloy | ~anyone |
| 14:31 | clojurebot | Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..." |
| 14:32 | gfredericks | PigDude: I'd be interested in what that is |
| 14:32 | hiredman | PigDude: an environment in the cs sense, a map of names to things |
| 14:32 | puredanger | amalloy: I have a protocol extension for HashMap and one for Map - they overlap? |
| 14:32 | amalloy | puredanger: sure, and HashMap wins |
| 14:32 | puredanger | amalloy: there are cases where there is no winner though and then it's arbitrary |
| 14:32 | PigDude | hiredman: that would be the super-cusotmizable approach :) |
| 14:32 | hiredman | PigDude: {:json SomeJsonCodecObject :transport SomeHttpThing} |
| 14:32 | dogonthehorizon | amalloy: Yeah, this also makes sense. Still getting used to "thinking in Clojure", so thanks for the explanation! |
| 14:32 | amalloy | but the problem i perceived hiredman to be talking about is two different consumers define something called :json, and they overlap just because they picked the same name |
| 14:33 | hiredman | the env map is nice and very direct, but you end up having to pass the map everywhere |
| 14:33 | mikerod | MrJones98: I may a little |
| 14:33 | PigDude | hiredman: i'll keep that in mind, i try to strike a balance between tweakbility and simplicity in config API |
| 14:33 | amalloy | and that doesn't happen with protocols, because there's no names to worry about, just the classes you define, which are namespaced and separate |
| 14:33 | puredanger | amalloy: yes, I digressed from original discussion |
| 14:33 | gfredericks | amalloy: he first mentioned globality, which I think is the heart of my gripe |
| 14:33 | PigDude | hiredman: maybe is good to bury this deep in the API for specific cases |
| 14:33 | hiredman | PigDude: I would suggest the balance is to leave it out |
| 14:33 | PigDude | yea |
| 14:33 | hiredman | PigDude: just call functions like amalloy and I suggested instead of putting those multimethods everywhere |
| 14:33 | PigDude | ok, thanks for the advice everyone :)_ |
| 14:34 | PigDude | hiredman: ok, so this is the kernel, what does that look like in code? |
| 14:34 | PigDude | hiredman: multimethods are functions after al |
| 14:34 | hiredman | either solve a problem or don't, don't include a half considered solution that doesn't solve anything |
| 14:34 | radix | are clojure records implemented as maps? (i.e. with a hamt and structure-sharing updates) |
| 14:34 | hiredman | PigDude: have you needed this multimethod thing? |
| 14:35 | MrJones98 | mikerod: i am trying to avoid using :fact-type-fn, and instead just wrapping my map with a field-less record |
| 14:35 | PigDude | hiredman: w/ current implemtnation, somebody extends the factory MM and the protocol if they wan tto provide a serializer implemtnation, etc. |
| 14:35 | hiredman | radix: no, they are jvm classes with fields, you can add arbitrary fields to them which end up in a hamt, but the definied fields are fields |
| 14:35 | PigDude | sorry for the typos i'm over ssh and the internethere is awful, i'm going to go work from hiome now |
| 14:35 | MrJones98 | mikerod: i.e. i’m doing (merge (->Rec) {:a :b}) and inserting that as a fact |
| 14:36 | MrJones98 | mikerod: where Rec is (defrecord Rec []) |
| 14:37 | hiredman | PigDude: do you have at least two distinct uses of the multimethod extension thing? not places where you are using it, but places where consumers have used it to extend things differently? |
| 14:41 | arrdem | &(/ 330.0 400) |
| 14:41 | lazybot | ⇒ 0.825 |
| 14:42 | gfredericks | haha yay math |
| 14:42 | gfredericks | love seeing those numbers do things |
| 14:46 | mikerod | MrJones98: ok, and you are having an issue with that? |
| 14:46 | amalloy | can we shame arrdem for not even simplifying it to (/ 33.0 40)? those wasted keystrokes are precious |
| 14:46 | mikerod | MrJones98: I guess your issue is that the field names are not "visible" to the rules engine |
| 14:46 | Bronsa | amalloy: but that's just (/ 3.3 4) |
| 14:47 | arrdem | heh |
| 14:47 | amalloy | whoa, Bronsa, let's not get crazy |
| 14:47 | MrJones98 | mikerod: sorry…. i didn’t finish - i actually think that might be working and that the problem is my definition of rules in one namespace and records in another |
| 14:47 | mikerod | MrJones98: [Rec [(= ?a a)]] fails for you or something? |
| 14:47 | amalloy | you can only cancel out the visible zeros - those invisible ones are too tricky |
| 14:47 | MrJones98 | mikerod: have you tried defining rules/records in different namespaces and passing that to mk-session? |
| 14:47 | mikerod | MrJones98: That should be fine. As long as you have the appropriate require's and refer's if you are not qualifying things |
| 14:48 | mikerod | Yes, I've tried it too. The test cases set up for clara-rules even does it that way. |
| 14:48 | gfredericks | Bronsa: but that's just 0.825 |
| 14:48 | mikerod | MrJones98: Perhaps if you are stuck on something with it, you could send a little example on a gist or something similar. |
| 14:48 | gfredericks | 4 fewer characters |
| 14:48 | Bronsa | gfredericks: I was waiting for someone to say that |
| 14:48 | radix | hiredman: ok, so if you assoc one of the declared members onto a record, it just copies the java instance and mutates that one value in the result? |
| 14:49 | gfredericks | ,(rationalize 0.825) |
| 14:49 | clojurebot | 33/40 |
| 14:49 | gfredericks | ^ I can never figure out how that works |
| 14:49 | Bronsa | wuut |
| 14:50 | whoadude | I just had to come post this |
| 14:50 | mikerod | Bronsa: thanks for the commit link! |
| 14:50 | mikerod | Bronsa: thanks for the quick feedback+commit on that too. |
| 14:50 | whoadude | user=> (defn reduces [coll & fns] (mapv #(reduce % coll) fns)) |
| 14:50 | whoadude | user=> (reduces coll max min) [99 1] |
| 14:50 | amalloy | gfredericks: it just multiplies everything by 10 until they're both integers, right? and then reduces? |
| 14:51 | whoadude | (the vector was the result) |
| 14:51 | whoadude | my mind was blown... i feel like i've turned a corner |
| 14:51 | amalloy | like, ##(rationalize Math/PI) is going to be garbage |
| 14:51 | lazybot | ⇒ 3141592653589793/1000000000000000 |
| 14:51 | gfredericks | amalloy: there's only one number not two |
| 14:51 | cbp | 825/1000 |
| 14:51 | amalloy | gfredericks: well. okay, yes. just one |
| 14:51 | gfredericks | the denominator there is interesting though |
| 14:53 | gfredericks | ,(defn amalloy ([num] (amalloy num 1)) ([num den] (if (= num (Math/floor num)) (/ num den) (recur (* num 10) (* den 10))))) |
| 14:53 | clojurebot | #'sandbox/amalloy |
| 14:53 | gfredericks | ,(amalloy 0.825) |
| 14:53 | clojurebot | 0.825 |
| 14:53 | gfredericks | whoops |
| 14:53 | gfredericks | ,(defn amalloy ([num] (amalloy num 1)) ([num den] (if (= num (Math/floor num)) (/ (int num) den) (recur (* num 10) (* den 10))))) |
| 14:53 | clojurebot | #'sandbox/amalloy |
| 14:53 | gfredericks | whoops |
| 14:53 | gfredericks | whoops I didn't meant to repeat the whoops |
| 14:53 | gfredericks | ,(amalloy 0.825) |
| 14:53 | clojurebot | 33/40 |
| 14:53 | gfredericks | ,(amalloy Math/PI) |
| 14:53 | clojurebot | #<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Value out of range for int: 3141592653589794> |
| 14:53 | gfredericks | okay whatever |
| 14:54 | gfredericks | amalloy: that is an interesting theory. |
| 14:54 | gfredericks | amalloy: it's mainly the interplay between binary and base-10 that confuddles me |
| 14:54 | gfredericks | since converting 33/40 to a float must lose information |
| 14:54 | MrJones98 | mikerod: i think i might’ve figured it out…. i needed to import the record in the namespace with defrules as well as the one that calls mk-session |
| 14:55 | amalloy | gfredericks: well it's not just a theory, it's actually how rationalize works |
| 14:55 | _alejandro | amalloy: gfredericks: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Numbers.java#L303 |
| 14:55 | _alejandro | was looking at it while you were talking about it |
| 14:56 | gfredericks | HUH. |
| 14:57 | gfredericks | I swear I've seen that before and didn't think it was scrutable |
| 14:58 | amalloy | gfredericks: also, i don't think 33/40 loses any information when converting to a float, does it? |
| 14:59 | gfredericks | it should |
| 14:59 | gfredericks | 40 is not a power of 2 |
| 14:59 | gfredericks | so it should be an infinite binary representation |
| 14:59 | amalloy | oh, i guess it does lose some |
| 15:01 | gfredericks | ,(defn all-positive-ratios [] (iterate #(/ (- (* 2 (- % (rem % 1))) % -1)) 1)) |
| 15:01 | clojurebot | #'sandbox/all-positive-ratios |
| 15:02 | hyPiRion | huh, I thought it computed the continued fraction expansion |
| 15:02 | gfredericks | ,(->> (all-positive-ratios) (remove #(-> % double rationalize (= %))) (first)) |
| 15:02 | clojurebot | 1/3 |
| 15:02 | gfredericks | ,(-> 1/3 double rationalize) |
| 15:02 | clojurebot | 3333333333333333/10000000000000000 |
| 15:03 | gfredericks | ,(->> (all-positive-ratios) (remove #(-> % double rationalize (= %)))) |
| 15:03 | clojurebot | (1/3 2/3 4/3 5/3 4/7 ...) |
| 15:12 | mikerod | MrJones98: yes, I'd imagine that mk-session needs to be aware of the environment you are bringing rules in from |
| 15:12 | mikerod | MrJones98: However, I'd be curious to know what sorts of failures you are seeing. |
| 15:12 | mikerod | MrJones98: And I'd be curious to see what wasn't working for you before this. |
| 15:13 | MrJones98 | mikerod: i was getting a few classloader issues… but my issue before this was the rules just weren’t matching at all |
| 15:13 | MrJones98 | mikerod: (defrule some-rule [Rec] => (println “found a rec”)) wasn’t giving me the expected output |
| 15:14 | MrJones98 | mikerod: i’m basically just trying to adapt the main example in the readme |
| 15:14 | MrJones98 | i’m starting to think there’s been a confluence of issues - classloader, re-def’ing records, namespaces not being loaded in the repl jvm |
| 15:14 | mikerod | MrJones98: so in one ns you made this defrule for some-rule with Rec being created via defrecord in the same ns? |
| 15:15 | mikerod | MrJones98: you definitely have to be careful for redef'ing any of your defrecords |
| 15:16 | mikerod | e.g. if you are inserting instances of your class Rec, and a rule matching on Rec is not firing at all - there is a chance you're dealing with 2 versions of the class named Rec |
| 15:24 | PigDude | hiredman: you asked about people using MMs to extend two things differently, but i'm not sure what you mean |
| 15:24 | PigDude | hiredman: now i have internet :) |
| 15:27 | arrdem | Bronsa: looking at -emit :keyword-invoke, this will neither arity exception nor fail to emit (:foo {} :bar :baz :quxx) it seems. |
| 15:27 | arrdem | &(:foo {} :bar :baz) |
| 15:27 | lazybot | java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to keyword: :foo |
| 15:27 | Bronsa | arrdem: It should be implemented in t.a.j IIRC |
| 15:27 | Bronsa | arrdem: one sec |
| 15:28 | Bronsa | arrdem: https://github.com/clojure/tools.analyzer.jvm/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/analyzer/passes/jvm/classify_invoke.clj#L44 |
| 15:29 | arrdem | Bronsa: ok cool. |
| 15:29 | andyf | gfredericks: The comer |
| 15:30 | andyf | gfredericks: The conversion of double to BigDecimal in rationalize probably approximates based on current settings in BigDecimal package |
| 15:31 | teslanick | Looking for a function that takes a list of keys and a map and returns a list containing the values the keys associate to. I have to think some function for that already exists but I'm not sure what it would be called. |
| 15:31 | cbp | select-keys |
| 15:32 | mikerod | MrJones98: https://github.com/rbrush/clara-rules/issues/44#issuecomment-36637022 maybe relevant to something you were experiencing. Not sure though. |
| 15:32 | teslanick | Oh. Duh. (vals (select-keys ...)) |
| 15:32 | gfredericks | andyf: right |
| 15:32 | gfredericks | andyf: so I guess that's the real work |
| 15:33 | mikerod | (I'm mrrodriguez as well...) |
| 15:33 | mikerod | I'm still trying to figure out how to install more packages when I'm using emacs-live |
| 15:34 | mikerod | https://github.com/ardumont/emacs-live-packs is the best looking option I see |
| 15:34 | technomancy | mikerod: the most annoying thing about emacs-live is how they reinvented emacs packaging for no reason =\ |
| 15:35 | andyf | gfredericks: In particular see java docs for BigDecimal.valueOf(double) and BigDecimal(double) constructor |
| 15:35 | technomancy | apart from just, you know, being a starter kit in the first place |
| 15:36 | gfredericks | andyf: oh snap they're different |
| 15:36 | gfredericks | ,(def andy (double 1/3)) |
| 15:36 | clojurebot | #'sandbox/andy |
| 15:36 | gfredericks | ,(rationalize (java.math.BigDecimal. andy)) |
| 15:36 | clojurebot | 6004799503160661/18014398509481984 |
| 15:36 | gfredericks | ,(rationalize (java.math.BigDecimal/valueOf andy)) |
| 15:36 | clojurebot | 3333333333333333/10000000000000000 |
| 15:37 | gfredericks | (inc andyf) |
| 15:37 | lazybot | ⇒ 4 |
| 15:37 | gfredericks | so I guess rationalize uses the latter |
| 15:37 | gfredericks | wherein the work is now being done by Double#toString |
| 15:38 | andyf | No guessing required :-) |
| 15:38 | arrdem | but what's the epsilon? |
| 15:39 | arrdem | hum... |
| 15:39 | arrdem | clearly we need an arbitrary length float package |
| 15:39 | gfredericks | ,(Double/toHexString (double 1/3)) |
| 15:39 | clojurebot | "0x1.5555555555555p-2" |
| 15:39 | gfredericks | ^ wat |
| 15:40 | gfredericks | ,(Double/toHexString (double 3/7)) |
| 15:40 | clojurebot | "0x1.b6db6db6db6dcp-2" |
| 15:42 | puredanger_ | why can't everyone just use integers |
| 15:44 | aviau | Hello! My internet skills are bad today =(. I am looking for an example web server that just echoes posts it receives. Where can I learn doing this? |
| 15:44 | arrdem | puredanger: we have yet to invent a way to actually effect the world in exact integer quantities. works great for virtual worlds tho... |
| 15:44 | nobodyzzz | is there a tool to add dependency to project.clj? something like adddep clj-http 0.9.2 and puf required string is added to project.clj? |
| 15:44 | andyf | puredanger: We do. We just don't always print them that way :-) |
| 15:44 | technomancy | aviau: (defn app [req] {:status 200 :headers {"content-type" "text/plain"} :body (slurp (:body req))}) |
| 15:45 | arrdem | (inc technomancy) |
| 15:45 | lazybot | ⇒ 120 |
| 15:45 | andyf | arrdem: The difference between two consecutive double values, according to java docs for Double.toString(double) |
| 15:45 | technomancy | hm... maybe :body (pr-str (update-in body [:body] slurp)) instead if you want headers |
| 15:46 | technomancy | and a bunch of other stuff |
| 15:46 | arrdem | technomancy: with-out-str pprint |
| 15:46 | technomancy | oh yeah nice |
| 15:47 | aviau | technomancy, Sorry. I don't want to echo it but print it. |
| 15:47 | aviau | Anh huh, That is a web server? |
| 15:47 | aviau | and* |
| 15:47 | technomancy | aviau: it's a ring-compliant hnadler |
| 15:47 | technomancy | handler |
| 15:47 | aviau | oh. So it will work with aleph? |
| 15:48 | technomancy | you'd pass it to ring.adapter.jetty/run-jetty |
| 15:48 | technomancy | or that, yeah |
| 15:48 | ztellman | haha |
| 15:49 | arrdem | technomancy: oh good you still have ops. |
| 15:53 | arrdem | andyf: sure, I was just curious if there was a non-0.0 epsilon between the two rationalize values. |
| 15:59 | boxed | parsing the clojure cheatsheet structure into a structure that looks like clojure and not some markup: 144 lines of core.match horror :P |
| 16:00 | arrdem | boxed: ... you realize that andyf generates that thing from clojure data right? |
| 16:00 | andyf | It is the clojure data that horrifies him :-) |
| 16:00 | boxed | yea, what andyf said |
| 16:00 | andyf | I did some expedient things |
| 16:01 | boxed | it’s complected to hell with markup and page structure |
| 16:01 | boxed | a million expedient things :P |
| 16:01 | arrdem | fair |
| 16:01 | boxed | but anyway, this has been a very useful little detour into core.match which is pretty rad I must say |
| 16:02 | boxed | and all this because I wanted to write a reagent search frontend to the cheatsheet :P |
| 16:02 | andyf | I didn't have time to do that many expedient things, or it wouldn't have been expedient :-) |
| 16:02 | boxed | heh |
| 16:04 | boxed | I have a few nuts and bolts left, like figuring out the namespaces to be able to get the proper links but I think that’s pretty easy |
| 16:05 | mi6x3m | hello, is there a way besides the reader to get a data structure out of source-fn ? |
| 16:05 | gfredericks | mi6x3m: I don't think so |
| 16:06 | mi6x3m | gfredericks: oh well :) |
| 16:06 | technomancy | clojurebot: serializable-fn? |
| 16:06 | clojurebot | serializable-fn is a hack for preserving source of a compiled function: https://github.com/technomancy/serializable-fn |
| 16:06 | technomancy | mi6x3m: doesn't work with regular functions, but you could try that |
| 16:07 | boxed | is it just me that has the annoying problem that light table freezes up for a few seconds every once in a while? |
| 16:07 | mi6x3m | technomancy: it will not help me much for i need the source of dependent symbols, a list of which I get with flatten :/ my use case is simple: i show the source code to small examples of a seesaw component |
| 16:08 | mi6x3m | guess source-fn and the reader will have to do :) |
| 16:08 | technomancy | sounds like it |
| 16:11 | nobodyzzz | I'm trying to parse a string which contains HTML with enlive, but calling (html-resource my_string) gives me NullPointerException net.cgrand.tagsoup/parser/fn--1254 (tagsoup.clj:31), 31 line in tagsoup is (with-open [^java.io.Closeable stream stream]. Any ideas why this is happening? |
| 16:12 | mi6x3m | any more efficient way to group the elements of a sequence with their index than: |
| 16:12 | aviau | technomancy, I Had a TCP server working. But I couldn't use your handler with an http server. Any ideas? This is what I have: http://pastebin.com/yLivSLMA |
| 16:12 | technomancy | aviau: I've never used aleph |
| 16:12 | mi6x3m | nobodyzzz: can you try to provide a minimal example |
| 16:13 | aviau | technomancy, Okay, thanks anyways =) |
| 16:15 | nobodyzzz | http://pastebin.com/Yg9ZpMGx (just poking around in repl) |
| 16:15 | nobodyzzz | it seems enlive treat my string as path to a file... |
| 16:16 | boxed | not-any? existing but not any?… wtf |
| 16:16 | amalloy | aviau: you want to read through https://github.com/ztellman/aleph/wiki/HTTP, and there's an example that's very similar to technomancy's |
| 16:17 | amalloy | &(doc some) boxed |
| 16:17 | lazybot | ⇒ "([pred coll]); Returns the first logical true value of (pred x) for any x in coll, else nil. One common idiom is to use a set as pred, for example this will return :fred if :fred is in the sequence, otherwise nil: (some #{:fred} coll)" |
| 16:18 | mi6x3m | nobodyzzz: what is the doc saying about html-resource? |
| 16:18 | boxed | amalloy: ah.. blech, but ok |
| 16:19 | nobodyzzz | mi6x3m, not much :) |
| 16:19 | nobodyzzz | net.cgrand.enlive-html/html-resource |
| 16:19 | nobodyzzz | ([resource] [resource options]) |
| 16:19 | nobodyzzz | Loads an HTML resource, returns a seq of nodes. |
| 16:20 | mi6x3m | nobodyzzz: i am looking |
| 16:23 | nobodyzzz | wrapping test to (java.io.StringReader. test) help \o/ |
| 16:33 | aviau | technomancy, amalloy, I played with the example a little bit and I got it working. Thank you guys! |
| 16:34 | mi6x3m | nobodyzzz: it seems html-resource is using get-resource |
| 16:34 | mi6x3m | https://github.com/cgrand/enlive/blob/master/src/net/cgrand/enlive_html.clj |
| 16:36 | andyf | Creating a completed data structure that suits the purposes it was created for: ~ 2 weeks. Updating it occasionally over 3 years: another 2 weeks. Getting boxed to learn that core.match is rad and earning 7 weeks in Clojure purgatory: priceless |
| 16:36 | boxed | heh |
| 16:40 | augustl | at what point does it become more efficient to create a set and union it with the original, rather than adding step-by-step in an iteration to a set? |
| 16:41 | augustl | absolute and definitive answer expected! :) |
| 16:42 | gfredericks | augustl: why not use transients? |
| 16:42 | technomancy | definitive answer: http://images.cryhavok.org/d/11335-1/Dresden+Codak+-+I+Will+Do+Science.jpg |
| 16:42 | hiredman | clojure.set is not very efficient |
| 16:43 | hiredman | into is most likely faster than set/union |
| 16:43 | amalloy | the only way i can think of it mattering, augustl, would be if you were adding the same value to a large set many times. like, (into (set (range 1e5)) (repeat 1e4 0)) |
| 16:43 | amalloy | in that case, creating a set of (repeat 1e4 0) first would probably be faster; in any other case i can think of, you just want to dump stuff into the existing set one at a time |
| 16:43 | augustl | gfredericks: PersistentTreeSet doesn't seem to support transients |
| 16:43 | gfredericks | oooh the sorted set |
| 16:44 | augustl | PersistentHashSet can have transients? |
| 16:44 | gfredericks | ,(transient #{}) |
| 16:44 | clojurebot | #<TransientHashSet clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet$TransientHashSet@164c6c9> |
| 16:45 | augustl | I need a sorted set though, boo |
| 16:45 | gfredericks | clojure 1.7 will include transient Longs and Doubles |
| 16:45 | augustl | makes sense that it doesn't support transients now that I think about it.. |
| 16:45 | gfredericks | it does? |
| 16:45 | Glenjamin | augustl: data.avl has transient sorted maps |
| 16:45 | gfredericks | I thought we were just being lazy with the fringe data types |
| 16:46 | puredanger | gfredericks: and transient nil |
| 16:46 | Glenjamin | https://github.com/clojure/data.avl/ |
| 16:46 | gfredericks | (inc puredanger) |
| 16:46 | lazybot | ⇒ 5 |
| 16:46 | latk | I've been trying to understand why my project.clj doesn't work when I attempt to enable source-maps for cljs (om). The file looks like this: http://bpaste.net/show/g6fayuRFcRhSMAFut6Q4/ and the error is http://bpaste.net/show/rdOW7blOiy5RHGW5rM4p/ |
| 16:47 | latk | I don't really understand the error, which makes it pretty hard to debug :s |
| 16:47 | mikerod | technomancy: Sorry, I was away. I agree the packaging part of emacs-live is not making me too happy. |
| 16:47 | mikerod | I don't understand the motivation behind it. |
| 16:51 | amalloy | that error message doesn't look like it came from that project.clj, latk. the line that's failing is https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild/blob/master/plugin/src/leiningen/cljsbuild/config.clj#L73, and it's failing because :builds is a single map instead of a list of maps |
| 16:52 | hiredman | amalloy: it looks like it is a list of maps in the linked project.clj? |
| 16:52 | amalloy | hiredman: that's why i said the error message doesn't seem to match the project.clj |
| 16:53 | amalloy | like, looking at the stacktrace and the line of code i linked, how can it be anything other than :builds being a single map |
| 16:54 | hiredman | makes sense |
| 16:54 | latk | I'm pretty new to clojure - how can I go about fixing this ? |
| 16:54 | latk | I just copied the syntax from an example I found on the cljs wiki |
| 16:56 | whodidthis | https://github.com/aamedina/cljs/blob/master/src/leiningen/new/om_cljs/project.clj |
| 16:56 | gfredericks | latk: wrap that map in a vector? |
| 16:56 | technomancy | latk: from what I gather, learning cljs without a background in clojure is really difficult given the immaturity of the tooling. |
| 16:56 | amalloy | gfredericks: but it's already wrapped in a vector! that's the weird thing. his error message does not match his code |
| 16:56 | latk | technomancy: This is becoming apparant :P |
| 16:57 | amalloy | this morning i was thinking about learning cljs. you guys have now reminded me that i'd have to learn cljsbuild, and it sounds less fun now |
| 16:57 | Frozenlock | technomancy: I'd say learning cljs without JS background is also quite hard. |
| 16:58 | latk | Yeah, I have some background in JS, but almost nothing in clojure. I was hoping to use cljs as a js replacement :s |
| 16:59 | technomancy | amalloy: yeah, I'm gonna just wait for this whole browser thing to blow over and get in early on the next fad: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=760#comic |
| 17:00 | amalloy | hah. i've read most smbc, but only by hitting Random - i've never gone systematically through the archive - and that is a new one to me |
| 17:00 | latk | No ideas for what I might do then? :s |
| 17:00 | latk | other than give up and learn clojure first |
| 17:00 | whodidthis | latk: https://github.com/aamedina/cljs try this to get started at least |
| 17:01 | Frozenlock | technomancy: Any ETA on the end-of-browsers? It can't come quickly enough... |
| 17:01 | whodidthis | To create a new project type "lein new om-cljs project-name", then it will hook you up with a cool new (hopefully) working project |
| 17:01 | augustl | hmm, seems PersistentTreeSet.create(myComp, null) doesn't work when using Clojure's data structures from a Java project |
| 17:01 | augustl | I get "java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: contains? not supported on type: clojure.lang.PersistentList" |
| 17:01 | gfredericks | technomancy: chewin on skunks *in clojure*! |
| 17:02 | technomancy | gfredericks: well now you have a name for your new browser-killer paradigm |
| 17:02 | technomancy | all that's left is to build it |
| 17:02 | gfredericks | and a logo |
| 17:02 | gfredericks | and a twitter account |
| 17:02 | technomancy | the rest is little more than an exercise for the reader |
| 17:03 | gfredericks | and a website in the .io TLD |
| 17:03 | technomancy | or possibly one of the other jovian moons |
| 17:03 | gfredericks | thanks icann! |
| 17:04 | Frozenlock | What you need to know to use cljs: JS, HTML, CSS, browser-compatibility, google compiler (munging, externs...), cljsbuild tweaks and Clojure... but not exactly because they don't allow the same thing. |
| 17:04 | Frozenlock | It's like a tower of abstractions without abstractions. |
| 17:05 | amalloy | a tower of agglomerations |
| 17:06 | Frozenlock | Oh and if you want to use the new hot toys, learn React.js as well. |
| 17:06 | Frozenlock | amalloy: Blob? |
| 17:06 | hiredman | all these tlds are yours(for a price) except .europa, attempt no whois lookups there |
| 17:06 | gfredericks | I'm pretty sure you can't do any serious front end web dev without a similarly sized toolbox |
| 17:06 | latk | the question is though, is it worse than plain js ? |
| 17:07 | latk | I would be surprised if it were... |
| 17:07 | technomancy | hiredman: hehe |
| 17:07 | Frozenlock | gfredericks: Bring back the .html webpage! |
| 17:08 | technomancy | latk: probably difficult to get a balanced answer on that, and it undoubtedly depends on context |
| 17:08 | gfredericks | Frozenlock: that's not a webapp that's a document |
| 17:08 | Frozenlock | You still have forms. |
| 17:09 | Frozenlock | What more do you want? |
| 17:09 | gfredericks | no more web browsers |
| 17:10 | Frozenlock | By that you mean no more websites... or do you have an alternative? |
| 17:10 | latk | technomancy: Well, in the near future I'm going to have to write a semi complex front end for some software I'm building.. I don't really want to do it in angular.js or similar |
| 17:11 | Frozenlock | latk: do you intend to learn clojure for the backend? |
| 17:11 | gfredericks | Frozenlock: I'm just a curmudgeon so I don't mean anything in particular |
| 17:12 | amalloy | gfredericks: do you mean to imply that all curmudgeons are pointless ramblers? |
| 17:12 | latk | Frozenlock: The backend is mostly written, in Haskell |
| 17:12 | technomancy | what we need is an elaborate calculus of program maintainability to tooling overhead ratio, factoring in the expected rate of change of the program and the likelihood of needing to bring new programmers up to speed with the setup |
| 17:12 | boxed | latk: http://yogthos.net/blog/54-Building+Single+Page+Apps+with+Reagent may be helpful |
| 17:12 | Frozenlock | /random-rants I want people to stop sending .doc forms and just use webforms instead. |
| 17:12 | gfredericks | amalloy: I didn't mean to imply anything in particular |
| 17:13 | gfredericks | (expressly because I'm a curmudgeon) |
| 17:13 | technomancy | latk: purescript? =) |
| 17:13 | latk | purescript looks cool, but I wanted to learn a lisp :p |
| 17:14 | latk | Also I was lead to belive cljs was more mature than purescript.. though that has not been my experince thus far |
| 17:15 | radix | latk: I don't know much about purescript (though it does look very cool), but cljs is indeed pretty awesome. there's a #clojurescript channel specifically about it fwiw |
| 17:16 | latk | radix: I'm actually already in there, but it seems somewhat dead :s |
| 17:16 | radix | ah :) |
| 17:16 | gfredericks | latk: I used it a lot a couple years ago; my guess is that there's a pretty big initial hump to get over, but then it ensmoothens a lot and is nice for anything sufficiently complex |
| 17:16 | latk | gfredericks: Did you already know clojure at this time ? |
| 17:16 | gfredericks | oh right I forgot about that difference |
| 17:16 | gfredericks | abandon all hope |
| 17:17 | latk | Hah :p |
| 17:17 | gfredericks | or rewrite your haskell in clojure first ;-) |
| 17:17 | latk | but muh type saftey! |
| 17:17 | technomancy | from what I've seen about the browser, it seems like a place where the guarantees of the type system are *more* important than the server |
| 17:17 | gfredericks | lol |
| 17:17 | dnolen_ | latk: cljs definitely more mature than purescript on pretty much every possible metric. But yes you need to know Clojure to be productive. |
| 17:18 | technomancy | because the jvm will at least usually crash when you reach nonsense, and the browser will just keep going |
| 17:18 | dnolen_ | technomancy: lol but likely for not the reasons you intended. |
| 17:18 | latk | dnolen_: Could you suggest a subset of clojure that would be sufficient ? |
| 17:18 | dnolen_ | latk: no, we replicate the entire standard library outside of concurrency primitives. |
| 17:19 | gfredericks | an interesting use of defrecord with a custom IFn is as a serializable representation of a job |
| 17:19 | dnolen_ | and that may change in the future if game companies have their way |
| 17:19 | latk | Hmm, are there any "roadmaps to clojurescript" or the like ? |
| 17:19 | latk | Or do I just need to spend a week writing clojure first? |
| 17:19 | radix | dnolen_: what may change? |
| 17:19 | gfredericks | oh concurrency primitives I bet is what he meant |
| 17:20 | dnolen_ | radix: Google is exploring shared memory parallelism in V8, locks and everything |
| 17:20 | radix | ooohh. cool :) |
| 17:20 | dnolen_ | and Brendan Eich has not written off the idea for ES7 |
| 17:20 | radix | I mean... |
| 17:20 | Frozenlock | latk: Spend a week writing clojure in a repl first. |
| 17:20 | Frozenlock | Getting a repl with clojurescript is yet another complication |
| 17:21 | dnolen_ | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xNZYr40QOk |
| 17:21 | latk | Frozenlock: I have been meaning to have a look at SICP - would this be the right sort of thing to be doing ? |
| 17:21 | radix | dnolen_: so, I'm no fan of threads+locks, but won't having shared memory parallelism actually be useful as a runtime for a functional language? since you'll be able to share memory without fear since your data structures are immutable |
| 17:21 | dnolen_ | Nick Bray talk from JSConf 2014 talk on this ^ |
| 17:21 | dnolen_ | radix: yep |
| 17:21 | dnolen_ | bring it on |
| 17:21 | radix | just leave out the locks |
| 17:21 | radix | ok, then that sounds great :) |
| 17:22 | Frozenlock | latk: I'm not the right person to ask.. I only read half of it :-p |
| 17:22 | Frozenlock | (But I watched the lectures) |
| 17:22 | latk | Frozenlock: Hah, fair enough. Seemed easier than thinking of some toy projects, is all |
| 17:22 | gfredericks | (inc locks) |
| 17:22 | lazybot | ⇒ 2 |
| 17:24 | amalloy | latk: sicp is pretty great |
| 17:24 | verma | I am having a hard time understanding this, I am writing cljs program sort of and need to use macros, I created a macros.clj right alongside my cljs but I cannot use it, what is needed to get some macros working for cljs? I seem to be able to import macros fine from external sources like clojure.match |
| 17:25 | dnolen_ | verma: gist would help thanks |
| 17:27 | verma | dnolen_, sure |
| 17:32 | verma | dnolen_, https://gist.github.com/verma/3fb02dcad9a6bc3e972a |
| 17:33 | kenrestivo | hi, i remember reading about a hack in lein to inject the version number of the project into the source somehow so it can be accessed from inside the project. but i forgot |
| 17:33 | technomancy | kenrestivo: no more hacks needed; just read pom.properties |
| 17:33 | technomancy | it used to be only available at jar time, but no more |
| 17:34 | Frozenlock | I usually use this https://github.com/trptcolin/versioneer |
| 17:34 | Frozenlock | Not sure if it's still the right thing to do. |
| 17:34 | kenrestivo | technomancy: thanx |
| 17:34 | technomancy | versioneer is the thing to use if you need compatibility with pre-2.4 lein |
| 17:35 | gfredericks | read pom.properties from where? |
| 17:35 | gfredericks | it's not on my classpath |
| 17:35 | gfredericks | not at the root anyhow |
| 17:35 | technomancy | yeah it's nested or something |
| 17:36 | gfredericks | is it deep down under META-INF/classloader/JAVA/classes/com/gfredericks/POM-INFO/... |
| 17:36 | technomancy | why do you have to ask such hard questions |
| 17:37 | kenrestivo | technomancy: you mean META-INF/projectname/pom.properties ? what path would i use to slurp that from inside the project? |
| 17:37 | technomancy | kenrestivo: should be the same path whether you're running from lein or an uberjar |
| 17:37 | aperiodic | verma: I don't see any reason why that macro needs to be a macro |
| 17:38 | kenrestivo | (slurp "pom.properties") comes up FileNotFoundException |
| 17:38 | technomancy | oh hey, I was thinking "that should be in the faq" and like magic I went to add it, and it was already there |
| 17:38 | kenrestivo | ,(slurp "pom.properties") |
| 17:38 | clojurebot | #<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied> |
| 17:38 | verma | aperiodic, the fn on line 11 is called every frame, I don't want it to change the random offsets every frame |
| 17:38 | dnolen_ | verma: hmm, still not enough information for me to see the issue |
| 17:38 | technomancy | (doto (java.util.Properties.) (.load (io/reader (io/resource "META-INF/maven/group/artifact/pom.properties")))) |
| 17:38 | aperiodic | verma: but your error is not anything to do with cljs, it's because your macro is written incorrectly |
| 17:38 | kenrestivo | technomancy: awesome, thanks |
| 17:39 | verma | aperiodic, oh is it? |
| 17:39 | technomancy | np |
| 17:39 | dnolen_ | verma: oh i see it |
| 17:39 | dnolen_ | verma: the symbol by is not being unquoted |
| 17:39 | dnolen_ | ~by |
| 17:39 | clojurebot | It's greek to me. |
| 17:39 | aperiodic | verma: is there no place you could generate the offsets once at the beginning and them pass them through to that fn? |
| 17:40 | verma | aperiodic, but that won't be awesome :( |
| 17:41 | technomancy | I can't remember if I announced it or not, but I posted the lein survey results a while back https://lein-survey-2014.herokuapp.com/results |
| 17:41 | technomancy | hmm... maybe like ... a couple months ago. |
| 17:41 | kenrestivo | oooh nifty, even shows the git commit? sweet. |
| 17:41 | verma | dnolen_, nice, that worked, I don't need the by unquoted though, I wanted the whole thing ~(- by (rand-int (* 2 by))) :) thanks |
| 17:41 | mi6x3m | i remember myself using ant |
| 17:42 | mi6x3m | when I recall the past |
| 17:42 | Frozenlock | technomancy: wow, so many Mac OS X |
| 17:42 | mi6x3m | lein and maven seem like... I don't know |
| 17:43 | mi6x3m | why are custom profiles so intensively used o_o |
| 17:43 | mi6x3m | yeah startup times are a bit annoying |
| 17:43 | dnolen_ | verma: that's symbol capture but ok, ~'by is what you want |
| 17:44 | Frozenlock | "Did you know if you have a single patch accepted you can ask for commit rights and a sticker?" I must have spent 20 seconds trying to understand what sticker meant. |
| 17:44 | Frozenlock | Then I realized it wasn't a technical term. |
| 17:44 | mi6x3m | Frozenlock: LOL |
| 17:44 | mi6x3m | :D |
| 17:44 | mi6x3m | I thought so too |
| 17:45 | technomancy | Frozenlock: we send someone to your house to poke you with a stick |
| 17:45 | mi6x3m | technomancy: can you show a template of the stickers? |
| 17:45 | mi6x3m | or they are different every time |
| 17:45 | verma | dnolen_, hmmm, ok, playing with it |
| 17:45 | technomancy | mi6x3m: it's just the logo, but I got a big batch printed on transparent backgrounds by accident |
| 17:45 | Frozenlock | "Oddly enough, the number of 3+ answers this year was almost exactly the same as last year. However, all the other numbers have fallen, especially the 1 year bracket." Clojure losing steam? |
| 17:46 | technomancy | so I tend to include five or six stickers in there to make up for it because I feel bad |
| 17:46 | mi6x3m | technomancy: round or square? |
| 17:46 | mi6x3m | suitable for notebooks? |
| 17:46 | technomancy | square |
| 17:46 | technomancy | sure |
| 17:46 | technomancy | I mean, as long as you place them on a lighter surface |
| 17:46 | mi6x3m | I gotta say this is quite motivating |
| 17:48 | aperiodic | dnolen_, verma : i don't think expanding to something with 'by is desired; verma just wants to generate an offset at macro-expand time so that it's consistent every time fn is invoked (each frame). quoting the whole subtraction expression is sufficient for that. |
| 17:48 | amalloy | i wonder if i answered that lein survey |
| 17:50 | verma | aperiodic, you're right, but the outcome of it was not really what I wanted, I think I was just confused, but at least the macros are working now so I can move forward :) |
| 17:50 | verma | thanks aperiodic, dnolen_ |
| 17:50 | aperiodic | verma: also, small note: it's easier & more idiomatic to use (dec n) instead of (- n 1) |
| 17:51 | verma | aperiodic, sure, learning new things everday :) |
| 17:51 | verma | (inc aperiodic) |
| 17:51 | lazybot | ⇒ 7 |
| 17:51 | verma | (inc dnolen_) |
| 17:51 | lazybot | ⇒ 3 |
| 17:52 | amalloy | technomancy: from my sample size of 1, i conclude that the reason "how long have you been using lein" got fewer answers than previously is because fewer people knew about the survey |
| 17:55 | kenrestivo | stuffed away where i won't have to remember how to do that anymore: https://github.com/kenrestivo/utilza/blob/master/src/utilza/java.clj#L101 |
| 17:56 | technomancy | amalloy: seems likely |
| 17:57 | gfredericks | I don't know about a survey and I've been using lein for a long time. |
| 17:57 | gfredericks | I can't remember if I was using it right away. |
| 17:57 | technomancy | mi6x3m: https://twitter.com/technomancy/status/162281090336305152 |
| 17:58 | mi6x3m | technomancy: let the patch hunt begin, this is quite worthy :) |
| 17:58 | mi6x3m | great idea |
| 17:59 | mi6x3m | is this a heron on your twitter ? |
| 17:59 | technomancy | mi6x3m: yeah, I like to work from parks |
| 17:59 | technomancy | sometimes parks by lakes |
| 17:59 | mi6x3m | technomancy: great birds, herons |
| 17:59 | technomancy | oh? |
| 18:00 | mi6x3m | well yes, quite beautiful |
| 18:00 | technomancy | oh yeah, and graceful |
| 18:00 | amalloy | technomancy: i hadn't realized this, but apparently my only commits in lein are to markdown files |
| 18:01 | amalloy | plus that one joke pull request |
| 18:01 | Frozenlock | pfff, no birds come close to the Shoebill http://masspictures.net/shoebill-bird/ |
| 18:01 | technomancy | amalloy: it was a good one |
| 18:03 | amalloy | Frozenlock: http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/07/07/largest-ever-flying-bird-a-prehistoric-dragon-found-in-south-carolina |
| 18:04 | elben | I want to convert HTML string, strip out tags and just get the raw text between tags. Something similar to beautifulsoup’s get_text (http://www.crummy.com/software/BeautifulSoup/bs4/doc/#get-text). Any ideas? Doesn’t seem to difficult to implement w/ enlive, clj-tagsoup, etc. |
| 18:05 | mr-foobar | can clojure have the problem of memory leaks ? |
| 18:05 | amalloy | &(vec (repeatedly 1e6 #(object-array 1e4))) |
| 18:06 | amalloy | really, no OOME, lazybot? |
| 18:08 | amalloy | i guess the wrong thread ate that OOME. poor guy |
| 18:26 | gfredericks | ,(extend-protocol clojure.core.protocols/CollReduce Long (coll-reduce [n f] (reduce f (repeat n 1)))) |
| 18:26 | clojurebot | nil |
| 18:26 | gfredericks | ,(reduce str 42) |
| 18:26 | clojurebot | "111111111111111111111111111111111111111111" |
| 18:26 | gfredericks | ^ protip |
| 18:30 | cbp` | =( |
| 18:31 | amalloy | ,(reduce + 100) ;; proof that reduce==0 |
| 18:31 | clojurebot | #<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long> |
| 18:32 | cbp` | :-D |
| 18:32 | Frozenlock | ,(str (take 42 (repeat "1"))) |
| 18:32 | clojurebot | "clojure.lang.LazySeq@643d5f61" |
| 18:32 | Frozenlock | ,(apply str (take 42 (repeat "1"))) |
| 18:32 | clojurebot | "111111111111111111111111111111111111111111" |
| 18:39 | AeroNotix | ,(reduce str 42) |
| 18:39 | clojurebot | #<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long> |
| 18:40 | gfredericks | what should LazySeq#toString be changed to do? |
| 18:42 | amalloy | gfredericks: (throw (Exception. "This never does what you want anyway, so why bother?")) |
| 18:43 | gfredericks | haha oh geez |
| 18:43 | gfredericks | people would hate that pretty quick |
| 18:43 | technomancy | "It looks like you're trying to stringify a lazy seq. Did you mean ..." |
| 18:46 | gfredericks | returning "#<LazySeq>" would be better than nothing |
| 18:46 | gfredericks | or similar |
| 18:47 | gfredericks | I don't see a big reason not to just do pr-str though |
| 18:47 | technomancy | maybe invoke whichever honors *print-length*? |
| 18:47 | gfredericks | hmm |
| 18:48 | gfredericks | I don't think the current behavior reliably saves anybody from anything |
| 18:48 | gfredericks | since most repls don't even use it |
| 18:48 | technomancy | surely it's being called by accident on an infinite seq deep in some codebases somewhere |
| 18:49 | amalloy | technomancy: that doesn't ever return |
| 18:49 | gfredericks | that's true it would be backwards-dangerous |
| 18:49 | amalloy | so the current behavior is not much good anyway |
| 18:49 | gfredericks | oh right of course |
| 18:49 | technomancy | oh, really? |
| 18:49 | technomancy | I thought the whole point was to avoid realizing it |
| 18:49 | gfredericks | amalloy: okay so surely it's being called by accident on a large seq deep in a memory-strapped codebase somewhere |
| 18:49 | gfredericks | technomancy: that's the problem is it doesn't even do that |
| 18:49 | technomancy | ok, yeah pretty lame |
| 18:50 | amalloy | technomancy: i thought that too, but every so often i am reminded that this is not the case |
| 18:50 | amalloy | ,(str (iterate inc 0)) |
| 18:50 | clojurebot | "(0 1 2 3 4 ...)" |
| 18:50 | gfredericks | haha wat |
| 18:50 | gfredericks | ,(str (range)) |
| 18:50 | clojurebot | #<OutOfMemoryError java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space> |
| 18:50 | amalloy | whaaaaaat |
| 18:50 | gfredericks | hiredman you weirdo did you special-case (str (iterate ...)) |
| 18:51 | hiredman | definitely not |
| 18:51 | technomancy | geez, rude to ask |
| 18:51 | amalloy | &(str (iterate inc 0)) |
| 18:52 | lazybot | java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space |
| 18:52 | hiredman | ,(type (iterate inc 0)) |
| 18:52 | clojurebot | clojure.lang.Cons |
| 18:52 | hiredman | ,(type (range)) |
| 18:52 | clojurebot | clojure.lang.LazySeq |
| 18:52 | amalloy | oh jeez. friggin iterate |
| 18:52 | gfredericks | ,(type (rest (iterate inc 0))) |
| 18:52 | clojurebot | clojure.lang.LazySeq |
| 18:53 | gfredericks | still confused |
| 18:53 | hiredman | haha |
| 18:53 | hiredman | the toString on ASeq calls RT.printString |
| 18:53 | hiredman | Cons extends ASeq |
| 18:53 | amalloy | yeah. i guess ASeq assumes that it will only be for finite, realized sequences? |
| 18:53 | gfredericks | and RT.printString somehow goes throw a clojurebot codepath? |
| 18:53 | hiredman | no |
| 18:53 | amalloy | gfredericks: no, not at all |
| 18:54 | amalloy | it prints it like the repl would |
| 18:54 | gfredericks | with a *print-length*? |
| 18:54 | hiredman | LazySeq doesn't implement ASeq |
| 18:54 | hiredman | gfredericks: yeah, printString must just call the pr var |
| 18:54 | amalloy | gfredericks: clojurebot has *print-length* set all the time, probably |
| 18:54 | hiredman | yep |
| 18:54 | amalloy | not just when attempting to print a result |
| 18:54 | hiredman | oh clojure, you are the living end |
| 18:55 | Frozenlock | Clojure is like a box of chocolates |
| 18:55 | amalloy | ,(str (cons 'infinity (range))) |
| 18:55 | clojurebot | "(infinity 0 1 2 3 ...)" |
| 18:55 | gfredericks | I pretty much didn't know about print-length |
| 18:56 | devn | gfredericks: award for best readme goes to you for qubits |
| 18:56 | gfredericks | devn: w0000hthx |
| 18:57 | devn | speaking of great readme/content in the same vein |
| 18:57 | devn | http://hoplon.discoursehosting.net/t/get-rich-with-hoplon-part-1/115 |
| 18:59 | gfredericks | so not only does (str a-lazy-seq) not save the seq from getting realized, but infinite not-instances-of-LazySeq get treated differently |
| 18:59 | devn | "The idea is, while listening to the song, the user can tap their phone's screen and determine the tempo1 of the song. They can then blog or tumbleblog or retweet or whatever with this number because quantified self and social networking fitbits Ashton Kutcher South-by." |
| 19:00 | technomancy | imma get the high score on taptobmp.com and you can't stop me |
| 19:01 | Frozenlock | I don't like that everything is in the fragment in Hoplon :-( |
| 19:01 | Frozenlock | http://hoplon.io |
| 19:02 | Frozenlock | (Instead of a real URL that hits the server) |
| 19:02 | Frozenlock | But maybe I'm just old fashioned. |
| 19:29 | mthvedt | anyone with any experience writing friend workflows? |
| 19:37 | fifosine | How do I turn a lazy sequence of ints into a lazy sequence of keys? |
| 19:38 | dnolen_ | fifosine: do you mean keywords? |
| 19:38 | amalloy | you mean keywords like :1? why would you do that? |
| 19:38 | fifosine | Yea, so that I can use zipmap |
| 19:38 | hiredman | you can use numbers as keys |
| 19:38 | hiredman | ,{1 1} |
| 19:38 | clojurebot | {1 1} |
| 19:39 | fifosine | ,(get 1 {1 1}) |
| 19:39 | clojurebot | nil |
| 19:39 | aperiodic | that's not how you use get |
| 19:39 | amalloy | ,(get {1 1} 1) |
| 19:39 | clojurebot | 1 |
| 19:39 | dnolen_ | ,(zipmap (range 5) (repeat "foo")) |
| 19:39 | clojurebot | {4 "foo", 3 "foo", 2 "foo", 1 "foo", 0 "foo"} |
| 19:39 | hiredman | ,(doc get) |
| 19:39 | clojurebot | "([map key] [map key not-found]); Returns the value mapped to key, not-found or nil if key not present." |
| 19:41 | fifosine | ty |
| 19:44 | gfredericks | ,(get get get get) |
| 19:44 | clojurebot | #<core$get clojure.core$get@7f6155> |
| 19:44 | aperiodic | (inc gfredericks) |
| 19:44 | lazybot | ⇒ 76 |
| 19:45 | aperiodic | the Buffalo buffalo of clojure |
| 19:45 | technomancy | related: https://twitter.com/technomancy/status/327234371813781505 |
| 19:46 | gfredericks | RT https://twitter.com/technomancy/status/327234371813781505 |
| 19:51 | verma | arrdem, the grimoire syntax theme was inspired by an existing colorscheme or is it your own? |
| 19:52 | gfredericks | ,((juxt (juxt :a :b) (juxt :c :d)) {:a :a, :b :b, :c :c, :d :d}) |
| 19:52 | clojurebot | [[:a :b] [:c :d]] |
| 19:52 | gfredericks | ,(partial partial partial) |
| 19:52 | clojurebot | #<core$partial$fn__4228 clojure.core$partial$fn__4228@1e0799a> |
| 19:52 | fifosine | I'm trying to mask a function in my tests so that I can provide input like this: (with-redefs [read-line #("1")] (read-line)) |
| 19:53 | fifosine | Is this a right way to go about it? |
| 19:53 | gfredericks | ,((constantly constantly)) |
| 19:53 | clojurebot | #<core$constantly clojure.core$constantly@b2f2d6> |
| 19:53 | AWizzArd | clojure.async: (dotimes [i 5] (put! chan i)) Is there a `foo` which will do (foo chan) => (0 1 2 3 4) ? |
| 19:54 | gfredericks | fifosine: ##(with-redefs [read-line (constantly "1")] (read-line)) |
| 19:54 | lazybot | java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! with-redefs-fn is bad! |
| 19:54 | gfredericks | clojurebot: You |tripped| the alarm! with-redefs-fn is bad! |
| 19:54 | clojurebot | 'Sea, mhuise. |
| 19:55 | technomancy | ,((constantly constantly) constantly constantly constantly constantly constantly constantly constantly constantly) though |
| 19:55 | clojurebot | #<core$constantly clojure.core$constantly@b2f2d6> |
| 19:55 | alandipert | (reduce partial (repeat partial)) ; world's most partial function |
| 19:55 | fifosine | gfredericks: Are you not supposed to use with-redefs in tests? |
| 19:55 | technomancy | ,(apply (constantly constantly) (repeat constantly)) |
| 19:56 | clojurebot | #<core$constantly clojure.core$constantly@b2f2d6> |
| 19:56 | verma | AWizzArd, you mean like <! ? |
| 19:56 | technomancy | huh, that worked |
| 19:56 | gfredericks | fifosine: nope it's fine |
| 19:57 | AWizzArd | verma: yes, I want a <! which will read all elements from the channel and return them in a list |
| 19:58 | verma | AWizzArd, may be (repeatedly #(<! chan)) ? but that's a lazy seq |
| 19:59 | gfredericks | ,(-> + (partial 7) (partial 4) ()) |
| 19:59 | clojurebot | #<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Can't call nil, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)> |
| 19:59 | gfredericks | ,(-> + (partial 7) (partial 4) (deliver 9)) |
| 19:59 | clojurebot | 20 |
| 19:59 | fifosine | Anyone know how to view stdout in lighttable? |
| 19:59 | technomancy | funcall! |
| 20:00 | hiredman | I think deliver is too powerful, it needs to be banned to keep things fun |
| 20:01 | Frozenlock | deliver? |
| 20:02 | TEttinger | (doc deliver) |
| 20:02 | clojurebot | "([promise val]); Delivers the supplied value to the promise, releasing any pending derefs. A subsequent call to deliver on a promise will have no effect." |
| 20:02 | gfredericks | ,(defn deliver? [x] (= x deliver)) |
| 20:02 | clojurebot | #'sandbox/deliver? |
| 20:02 | gfredericks | ,(deliver? 'hey) |
| 20:02 | clojurebot | false |
| 20:02 | gfredericks | ,(deliver? deliver) |
| 20:02 | clojurebot | true |
| 20:02 | amalloy | clojurebot: deliver is a version of funcall snuck into clojure by a lisp-1 fanatic |
| 20:02 | clojurebot | c'est bon! |
| 20:02 | amalloy | er, lisp-2. dangit |
| 20:03 | gfredericks | haha you can't take it back now |
| 20:03 | hiredman | the implementation of deliver happens to be (fn [x y] (x y)) because of laziness in implementation of promises |
| 20:03 | gfredericks | clojurebot NEVER forgets |
| 20:03 | amalloy | clojurebot: forget deliver |is| a version of funcall snuck into clojure by a lisp-1 fanatic |
| 20:03 | clojurebot | I forgot that deliver is a version of funcall snuck into clojure by a lisp-1 fanatic |
| 20:03 | amalloy | clojurebot: deliver is a version of funcall snuck into clojure by a lisp-2 fanatic |
| 20:03 | clojurebot | Roger. |
| 20:03 | amalloy | hiredman: s/laziness/sloppiness, just because laziness is so overloaded in clojure |
| 20:03 | TEttinger | hello? |
| 20:03 | clojurebot | BUENOS DING DONG DIDDLY DIOS, fRaUline TEttinger |
| 20:03 | Frozenlock | clojurebot: Datomic is still not FOSS. |
| 20:03 | clojurebot | Ok. |
| 20:03 | Frozenlock | :-D |
| 20:04 | fifosine | ,datomic |
| 20:04 | clojurebot | #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: datomic in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)> |
| 20:04 | TEttinger | ...good ding dong diddly god, miss TEttinger? |
| 20:04 | fifosine | how do you ask it facts |
| 20:04 | TEttinger | datomic? |
| 20:05 | Frozenlock | Is it case sensitive? |
| 20:05 | fifosine | clojurebot: Is Datomic FOSS? |
| 20:05 | technomancy | ,tias |
| 20:05 | clojurebot | No entiendo |
| 20:05 | clojurebot | #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: tias in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)> |
| 20:05 | amalloy | clojurebot: is it case sensitive? |
| 20:05 | clojurebot | excusez-moi |
| 20:05 | TEttinger | clojurebot: datomic |is| a money-making scheme |
| 20:05 | clojurebot | You don't have to tell me twice. |
| 20:05 | TEttinger | datomic? |
| 20:05 | clojurebot | datomic is a money-making scheme |
| 20:06 | fifosine | ah-ha |
| 20:06 | TEttinger | Datomic? |
| 20:06 | Frozenlock | Datomic? |
| 20:06 | clojurebot | Datomic is still not FOSS. |
| 20:06 | clojurebot | Datomic is still not FOSS. |
| 20:06 | Frozenlock | Yeah, case sensitive |
| 20:06 | fifosine | scheme? |
| 20:06 | clojurebot | scheme is Scheme is like a ball of snow. You can add any amount of snow to it and it still looks like snow. Moreover, snow is cleaner than mud. |
| 20:07 | fifosine | anyways, does anyone know how to view stdout in lighttable, e.g. see "5" when you exec (println "5")? |
| 20:07 | TEttinger | fifosine, run it in the repl? |
| 20:07 | fifosine | TEttinger: I'd have to copy-paste all my code |
| 20:07 | TEttinger | light table I believe only shows you return values |
| 20:07 | Frozenlock | fifosine: Been a while since I used lighttable, but isn't it Shift+Ctrl+C to show the console? |
| 20:08 | TEttinger | huh why? |
| 20:08 | TEttinger | just import it |
| 20:08 | TEttinger | require, sorry |
| 20:08 | fifosine | frozenlock: yes, thanks! |
| 20:20 | gfredericks | hey if you want to have a good time do a (shuffle 1000) and try to find the 0 |
| 20:20 | gfredericks | best way to spend your evening |
| 20:20 | gfredericks | (shuffle (range 1000)) I mean |
| 20:20 | gfredericks | if you figure that one out, then try to find the 1 |
| 20:21 | Frozenlock | ,(some #{0} (shuffle (range 1000))) |
| 20:21 | clojurebot | 0 |
| 20:21 | Frozenlock | It's there! |
| 20:21 | gfredericks | if you get bored of that, mix things up -- bump it to 2000 and look for your birth year |
| 20:21 | gfredericks | get creative! |
| 20:22 | gfredericks | if you really want to challengeg yourself try (repeatedly 2500 #(rand-int 2)) and look for patterns |
| 20:22 | amalloy | gfredericks: c'mon man, it's 2014 already. clojure surely has some programmers born after 2000 |
| 20:23 | gfredericks | raynes would have told us about it |
| 20:23 | amalloy | maybe he did and you ignored him because you don't take youth seriously |
| 20:27 | gfredericks | yeah well maybe I took youth seriously and you ignored it because you don't take me seriously |
| 20:28 | Frozenlock | lol |
| 20:29 | Frozenlock | Is Clojure hip with the kids? |
| 20:30 | platz | no |
| 20:30 | amalloy | ,hip |
| 20:30 | clojurebot | #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: hip in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)> |
| 20:33 | technomancy | Frozenlock: https://a248.e.akamai.net/media.pinterest.com.s3.amazonaws.com/736x/8a/76/60/8a7660926fd0668dfc5ae9aa39feff00.jpg |
| 20:34 | Frozenlock | Wise man |
| 20:34 | Frozenlock | technomancy: Are you showing Clojure to your little ones yet? |
| 20:45 | gfredericks | ,(defmethod print-method :print-fn [x pw] (.write pw ((-> x meta :print-fn) x))) |
| 20:45 | clojurebot | #<MultiFn clojure.lang.MultiFn@724356> |
| 20:46 | gfredericks | ,(with-meta '(1 2 3) {:type :print-fn :print-fn #(str "#<I am a list with a " (first %) " >")}) |
| 20:46 | clojurebot | #<I am a list with a 1 > |
| 20:47 | gfredericks | I think I've written that sort of thing a few times |
| 20:49 | fifosine | ,(let [input "1"] |
| 20:49 | fifosine | (condp = input |
| 20:49 | fifosine | "0" "1" |
| 20:49 | fifosine | "1" "0")) |
| 20:49 | clojurebot | #<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading> |
| 20:49 | fifosine | ,(let [input "1"] (condp = input "0" "1" "1" "0")) |
| 20:49 | clojurebot | "0" |
| 20:49 | fifosine | Is there a better way to write the above? |
| 20:50 | fifosine | Since there are only two possibilities, and they "switch" |
| 20:50 | amalloy | i mean, if this binary switching is a common pattern for you, you can make it into a function |
| 20:50 | gfredericks | fifosine: I always write that {"0" "1", "1" "0"} |
| 20:51 | fifosine | gfredericks: Just make a map, you mean? |
| 20:51 | gfredericks | ,(def singleton-bitstring-flip {"0" "1", "1" "0"}) |
| 20:51 | clojurebot | #'sandbox/singleton-bitstring-flip |
| 20:51 | gfredericks | ,(let [input "1"] (singleton-bitstring-flip input)) |
| 20:51 | clojurebot | "0" |
| 20:53 | gfredericks | ,(def ? (fn [_] (rand-nth [true false]))) |
| 20:53 | clojurebot | #'sandbox/? |
| 20:55 | gfredericks | apparently this is what I do when there's tedious code I need to write |
| 20:55 | technomancy | Frozenlock: no, sticking with racket and scratch so far |
| 20:55 | technomancy | clojure has too much incidental BS |
| 20:55 | arrdem | verma: nope that's existing. the last color scheme I built to look like emacs... "got replaced" with what is now used for my blog and Grimoire |
| 20:56 | fifosine | ,(map {"0" "1" "1" "0"} "01") |
| 20:56 | clojurebot | (nil nil) |
| 20:56 | fifosine | mmm |
| 20:57 | gfredericks | chars |
| 20:57 | fifosine | ,(map {\0 \1 \1 \0} "01") |
| 20:57 | clojurebot | (\1 \0) |
| 20:58 | fifosine | gredericks: So I string is really a list of chars? |
| 20:58 | gfredericks | no |
| 20:59 | gfredericks | a string gets turned into a list of chars if you pass it to a function that expects a seq |
| 20:59 | hiredman | gfredericks: I tend to start writing abstract machines to execute code in other languages that already do the tedious stuff before remembering I need to get this stuff through code review at some point |
| 20:59 | Frozenlock | technomancy: any chance of seeing racket used for 'real' stuff? |
| 21:00 | technomancy | gfredericks: proof: https://twitter.com/hiredman_/status/423167878326530048 |
| 21:00 | gfredericks | ,(->> "01110101001" (map {\0 \1 \1 \0}) (apply str)) |
| 21:00 | clojurebot | "10001010110" |
| 21:00 | hiredman | I started writing a secd machine to execute ruby today using jruby's parser, which was a terrible idea since I don't really know ruby |
| 21:00 | technomancy | Frozenlock: by me specifically? |
| 21:00 | Frozenlock | No, just in general. |
| 21:01 | Frozenlock | I tried it once and remember it was interesting, but nothing more... |
| 21:01 | technomancy | Frozenlock: sure, it's definitely the most practical of any scheme |
| 21:01 | hiredman | and this gem is really just a wrapper around shelling out to a binary, which I should just do |
| 21:01 | Frozenlock | Hmmm |
| 21:01 | Frozenlock | Should take another look. |
| 21:01 | technomancy | Frozenlock: the main downside is that all their web stuff goes on and on about how continuations are such a great model for web sessions |
| 21:01 | technomancy | which is pretty annoying |
| 21:01 | technomancy | but apart from that it's really nice |
| 21:02 | technomancy | libs are weak compared to clojure, but getting better |
| 21:03 | gfredericks | hiredman: TIL SECD |
| 21:03 | gfredericks | you wrote this in clojure? |
| 21:03 | hiredman | I started to |
| 21:04 | hiredman | to be honest it started as a CESK machine |
| 21:05 | gfredericks | this is so hipster it doesn't even have its own wikipedia article |
| 21:07 | gfredericks | I wrote a lazy BF interpreter the other day |
| 21:08 | gfredericks | just because somebody was in here talking about it |
| 21:17 | hiredman | actually http://matt.might.net/articles/oo-cesk/ could run a lot of ruby off the bat I think |
| 21:24 | fifosine | ,(map (partial take-nth 2) '("1122" "1122")) |
| 21:24 | clojurebot | ((\1 \2) (\1 \2)) |
| 21:24 | fifosine | Is a partial necessary here, or is there another way to write this without using a partial? |
| 21:29 | amalloy | naturally, fifosine, there are arbitrarily many ways to write it. for example, you could use #(), or a for-comprehension |
| 21:29 | Frozenlock | http://racket-lang.org/download/docs/6.0.1/html ---> > ((uncaught-exception-handler) |
| 21:29 | Frozenlock | Wow, worse than Clojure docs! :-p |
| 21:29 | amalloy | on the less practical things, you could write a prolog interpreter and then write a prolog program that does what you want |
| 21:29 | fifosine | amalloy: Is what's written above idiomatic? |
| 21:30 | amalloy | perfectly reasonable. i probably would write instead (for [s ["1122" "1122"]] (take-nth 2 s)), but there's nothing wrong with yours |
| 21:32 | dbasch | I would write [[\1 \2] [\1 \2]] :) |
| 21:33 | amalloy | ,(map list "11" "22") |
| 21:33 | clojurebot | ((\1 \2) (\1 \2)) |
| 21:44 | gfredericks | ,(repeat 2 '(\1 \2)) |
| 21:44 | clojurebot | ((\1 \2) (\1 \2)) |
| 21:45 | gfredericks | ,(->> (repeat (range)) (map #(map str %)) (map #(map first)) (map rest) (map #(take 2 %)) (take 2)) |
| 21:45 | clojurebot | #<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: sandbox/eval51/fn--54> |
| 21:45 | gfredericks | ,(->> (repeat (range)) (map #(map str %)) (map #(map first %)) (map rest) (map #(take 2 %)) (take 2)) |
| 21:45 | clojurebot | ((\1 \2) (\1 \2)) |
| 21:46 | gfredericks | ^ if you're not starting with an infinite seq of infinite seqs you're doing it wrong |
| 21:54 | fifosine | Is there a way to stop println from trimming strings? |
| 21:57 | fifosine | nvm |
| 22:00 | fifosine | If nobody minds code-reviewing this small code snippet for idiomatic clojure, efficiency, style, that'd be awesome. http://www.reddit.com/r/dailyprogrammer/comments/2avd5i/7162014_challenge_171_intermediate_zoom_rotate/cizl682 |
| 22:02 | dbasch | ~flatten |
| 22:02 | clojurebot | flatten is rarely the right answer. Suppose you need to use a list as your "base type", for example. Usually you only want to flatten a single level, and in that case you're better off with concat. Or, better still, use mapcat to produce a sequence that's shaped right to begin with. |
| 22:03 | fifosine | dbasch: ok, I'll remember that, thanks! |
| 23:39 | Subapical | Hello, transitioning from Scheme to Clojure |
| 23:39 | Subapical | So far, so good |
