#clojure – 2014-07-15

2014-07-15

00:00	elben	I meant “do”, but I also use corea.sync and go blocks, so still useful
00:01	kristof	elben: In go, if you've got 10000 go procs running on a 4 core machine and just 4 of those goroutines have no function-calls and no channel ops (just tight loops), they will starve every other proc on the system until they're done.
00:01	elben	ok, that’s what i would expect
00:02	elben	right, because in clojure go uses some small number of threads i I’m correct
00:02	elben	My question was in the context of clojurescript, which does not use threading
00:03	elben	so a tight loop would indeed starve everyone else
00:04	kristof	Yes. But if it's a tight loop, why is it in a go block? :P
00:06	elben	you’re the one who first mentioned a tight loop :)
00:06	kristof	elben: Anyway I would think no. Your do block would hold up everyone else until somewhere in the do block you put or take.
00:06	elben	i was trying to understand how clojurescript, om and core.async function in a non-threaded, async, single-process world i.e. a browser :)
00:06	nathan7	elben: JS has an event loop
00:07	nathan7	well, it's not part of the JS spec presently, but every JS runtime has an event loop
00:07	nathan7	only once things hit the event loop, events are dispatched
00:08	nathan7	so no, your code won't ever be interrupted in the middle
00:08	kristof	^
00:08	elben	thank you, that’s the original question :)
00:08	kristof	Erlang does some interesting pre-emption
00:09	elben	yes, i recall taht. they have some kind of counter for actiosn per threadlet?
00:09	kristof	But minimizing latency through pre-emption throttles throughput!
00:09	kristof	elben: Yeah, like a running total of "ops" fired. I can't remember if BIFs count.
00:09	nathan7	I'm still getting used to thinking with threads around
00:10	nathan7	I'm mostly a JS programmer, I can read you the ES5 spec backwards from memory and all, so I normally just get to assume everything just runs to completion without interruption
00:10	elben	kristof, makes sense. there’s always context switch overhead, even for “green” threads.
00:10	nathan7	unless I'm firing off something async
00:11	technomancy	kristof: it's considered a bug if any call gets missed by those counts IIUC
00:11	elben	“unless”?
00:11	elben	nathan7 ^ in what circumstances would the event loop “take over” control?
00:11	nathan7	elben: well, if I hand something a callback, that'll of course run in a future turn of the event loop
00:11	elben	i assume the user program must give up contorl to the event loop
00:11	nathan7	yes
00:11	nathan7	the event loop lives at the bottom of the stack
00:12	kristof	technomancy: I know that there's something related to BIFs... or perhaps it was calling C routines... that one has to be careful of.
00:12	nathan7	well, right below the JS stack
00:12	elben	I see, just making srue
00:12	nathan7	in any real program you'll do stuff async
00:13	nathan7	because blocking the event loop is highly undesirable
00:13	nathan7	well, any program doing I/O
00:14	kristof	elben: The cost of context switching would mostly come from stuff like cache misses, actually
00:14	kristof	elben: Want to know what an erlang actor is? (lambda () (;; loop and match message with dispatch function))
00:14	elben	hmm i remember a go lang paper talking about that. basically the “secret sauce” of the go scheduler is dealing w/ cache misses
00:15	kristof	Actually, just ignore the "loop" part. At the end of a single receive it'll get scheduled!
00:15	elben	^ don’t take my word for it though, was just skimming
00:15	kristof	*scheduled out
00:30	technomancy	kristof: oh yeah, there was a bug where NIFs weren't tracked correctly in R14 or something.
00:34	kristof	elben: Secret sauce? They do avoid cache misses by trying to keep the same goroutines on the same processor.
01:08	_1_angga	australia
01:19	benkay	indochina?
01:24	benkay	i've got :uberjar {:aot [van.main]} (the ns with my the main function for my app) in the :profiles map in project.clj and yet when I run lein uberjar and then java -jar van_standalone.jar, java complains that it cannot find or load class van.main. thoughts?
01:25	benkay	:gen-class in the main ns?
01:26	benkay	spammers in #clojure again...
01:26	benkay	kasmoin, for the record.
01:29	kegund	I made the switch to ERC on day 4 of clojure (from freenode HTML). It feels great!
01:33	benkay	how much of your life have you poured into your .emacs so far?
01:33	benkay	kegund?
01:35	kegund	yeash... 13 years
01:36	benkay	erc is really what made me serious about honing my .emacs. i haven't lost much time to it...yet.
01:37	kegund	I've hardly been serious... though a dozen years of emacs kind of adds up.
01:37	kegund	I just cleared my .emacs last Friday when clojure wasn't working right in emacs.
01:38	hellofunk	benkay what kind of erc stuff do you have in your .emacs?
01:38	kegund	about ""
01:38	kegund	exactly ""
01:39	kegund	hellofunk: sorry... I'm new
01:46	deadghost	my emacs is 800 lines
01:46	deadghost	~8 months in
01:46	clojurebot	excusez-moi
01:47	deadghost	still haven't put in erc because it seems like a pain to get it to xchat functionality
01:50	hellofunk	if you live inside emacs and have a large monitor, it is quite useful to have your irc as a window inside emacs
01:51	deadghost	hellofunk, when you say useful
01:51	deadghost	you mean distracting right
01:51	hellofunk	no, i consider those two words to have different meanings
02:52	Frozenlock	Especially for Clojure, because the official doc is #clojure
03:05	razum2um	i'd like to use foundation library (in my foss) inside of https://github.com/JetBrains/intellij-community/blob/master/platform/util/src/com/intellij/ui/mac/foundation/Foundation.java is there any way to pack it apart as a lib? why isn't it separeted already?
03:06	razum2um	is it permitted by Apache License?
03:08	johnwalker	technomancy: do you sign the books in your dotfiles?
03:08	johnwalker	;)
03:18	jack_rabbit	razum2um, you might try reading the Apache 2.0 license. It's not too long or difficult to understand.
03:18	jack_rabbit	razum2um, in short, you can probably use it for whatever you want. There are certain conditions laid out in the license that you should read and be aware of.
03:19	razum2um	jack_rabbit: btw is there any another lib to invoke objc methods?
03:21	jack_rabbit	razum2um, not sure, but objective-C has C interoperability. Once it's object code, you should be able to call into it with JNI. That said, I've never done it, so there might be complications I'm not aware of.
04:46	daGrevis	,(map #(* % %) range(2))
04:46	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
04:46	daGrevis	whoops
04:46	daGrevis	,(map #(* % %) (range 2))
04:46	clojurebot	(0 1)
05:09	hellofunk	in Om I can log a vector that contains both clojure as well as js numerals, such as [12 #<455>] however if I attempt to place the second of these in a dom/td cell, it prints onscreen as 4550. is this some sort of js->cljs issue?
05:09	hellofunk	like adding a 0 to the end of things, why would that happen?
05:13	boxed	have you looked at the DOM? is it just one text node for “4550”?
05:15	hellofunk	boxed ahh good catch.
05:15	boxed	no problem :P
05:16	boxed	hellofunk: are you happy with Om otherwise? I had a lot of trouble with getting it to do what I wanted, so I gave up and went to Reagent instead which I am very happy with
05:16	hellofunk	boxed: yes, Om is quite amazing.
05:16	hellofunk	not having any problems at all
05:17	boxed	I could never figure out when you had to add #js and when not to… and I got annoyed at the sprinkling of “nil” all over the place
05:18	hellofunk	boxed you could have removed both of those concerns if using Om with Sablano (which I'm not doing)
05:18	boxed	ah, did not know that
05:19	boxed	Reagent is pretty damn nice I must say… I think it deserves as much hype as Om
05:19	nathan7	it's everything I was hoping Om would be
05:19	nathan7	just Clojure data types and pure functions
05:20	hellofunk	nathan7 well that's what Om is as well, no?
05:20	boxed	yea, I still don’t get the whole cursors thing, and I’ve read the docs several times :(
05:20	nathan7	hellofunk: with Sablono it's close to what I'd like
05:21	nathan7	with Reagent's reactive atoms it's 100% there
05:21	boxed	hellofunk: I’ve never written a single #js or nil in Reagent, without adding another lib :P
05:21	hellofunk	boxed the #js is there because sometimes you do want to pass a pure javascript notation for any number of things, but you don't have to if you don't want to.
05:21	boxed	plus reagent worked first time… had loads of trouble getting Om to do anything
05:22	hellofunk	Om is a bit complicated but it worked out of the box for me
05:22	nathan7	it means binding your every component quite strongly to it
05:22	nathan7	with all the om/blah
05:23	nathan7	well, dom/blah
05:23	hellofunk	I guess I'd have to see Reagent in action to understand the distinction
05:24	nathan7	[:h1 "this is how we do it in Reagent"]
05:24	nathan7	and just @blah
05:24	hellofunk	nathan7 that's not reagent, that's sablono, no?
05:24	nathan7	well
05:25	nathan7	hellofunk: well, yes, I just realised I picked the wrong difference
05:25	hellofunk	You can get that same syntax with Om just fine if you use Sablono there too
05:25	nathan7	it's been over 24 hours since I awoke
05:25	nathan7	my brain is slightly off
05:25	boxed	hellofunk: good defaults count though…
05:26	nathan7	hellofunk: when you dereference an atom while rendering, it remembers that
05:26	nathan7	hellofunk: and it knows to rerender that when the atom changes
05:26	hellofunk	Om seems pretty well thought out and very highly performance so I'd have to see better examples to agree that there was a better alternative right now
05:27	hellofunk	nathan7 and what gives you the impression that Om's engine is not watching state changes as well? Because of course that is the entire point behind Om and React
05:27	nathan7	hellofunk: I can have as many atoms as I want
05:28	mi6x3m	clojure
05:28	mi6x3m	why is the doc comment not included in the meta
05:28	the-kenny	nathan7: You can have as many different states in Om too. Either nested, or via different om/roots.
05:28	mi6x3m	if I specify custom stuff with ^{...}
05:28	nathan7	the-kenny: I don't have to have extra roots for Reagent, however
05:28	the-kenny	Why do you need multiple atoms then anyway?
05:29	hellofunk	I'm still waiting to here a good example of what Reagent does that Om does not.
05:29	the-kenny	One root, one "application", one single consistent state over the whole application
05:29	boxed	hellofunk: It’s not about what features Reagent has that Om does not imo, it’s about the ease of use of the features either has
05:29	nathan7	I have a homebaked DB that has live-updating documents
05:30	boxed	perl has all the features, it sucks :P
05:30	nathan7	I wrap my JS-land DB documents in an atom that gets reset when the DB document gets updated
05:30	nathan7	I don't have to tell Reagent shit
05:31	nathan7	and the set of documents that is displayed varies of course
05:31	the-kenny	nathan7: Om works the same.
05:31	nathan7	I don't have to maintain a set of Om roots or whatever
05:31	nathan7	or have a global map that everything lives in
05:31	the-kenny	What's wrong about a map containing multiple DBs?
05:31	nathan7	I can just read from an atom and everything automagically updates
05:32	nathan7	and I intend to extend the atoms a little more so my DB stuff can see what atoms are actually being watched
05:32	nathan7	so unused documents are dropped
05:32	nathan7	and I can use my DB as if it's entirely local
05:32	the-kenny	shrug I don't really want to discuss the differences in detail. I'm a pretty happy Om user in multiple projects :)
05:33	nathan7	the-kenny: basically, I get to write reactive UI as if it's not
05:33	the-kenny	nathan7: It's the same in Om...
05:34	hellofunk	The only thing nathan7 has mentioned that I don't understand is the "atom getting reset when DB document gets updated" -- in Om, I have a separate core.async go block that investigates outside changes and then delivers anything necessary to the Om atom on a channel.
05:34	hellofunk	and then of course Om automatically reacts to whatever new state is has
05:34	the-kenny	hellofunk: That's the preferred way iirc. You can also just modify the atom outside om. Works fine too.
05:34	the-kenny	What brings me to my question: Anyone got an idea to selectively disable a portion of code (in my case weasel-repl) when I build the application with :optimization :advanced? I need Closure to fully strip the code, as our security policies won't allow eval() in the generated JS.
05:35	hellofunk	the-kenny it is not advised that you modify the Om atom outside Om. For high performance, you should let Om schedule all updates only inside an Om render cycle
05:35	the-kenny	I know
05:35	nathan7	hellofunk: This means my UI stuff has to handle it differently from regular code though
05:36	hellofunk	Om is very much a strong MVC reactive system, so I can only suspect that you weren't using it as designed if you felt it wasn't doing these things.
05:36	the-kenny	nathan7: Well. The performance is quite good even when modifying the atom from the outside.
05:36	nathan7	derefing an atom handles all — even if that's inside some function that's entirely unaware of that
05:36	hellofunk	It's important to note that while React is a very fast JS library, Om has been benchmarked to be another 2 - 3X faster than React because of how it schedules state updates. I'd be very surprised if Reagent has that sort of implementation going on, but maybe it does (which I doubt).
05:37	nathan7	hellofunk: It re-renders if atom values aren't identical?
05:37	hellofunk	what?
05:37	clojurebot	what is a better one i think: https://github.com/michaelklishin/neocons
05:37	nathan7	hellofunk: so Om might be doing something faster there, yes
05:37	hellofunk	Nathan7 the entire point of React is to re-render things that have changed, so both Om and Reagent would be doing this
05:38	nathan7	hellofunk: mhm
05:38	boxed	hellofunk: pretty sure the whole “immutable data structure” thing gives a lot of speed advantages to Om and Reagent equally, compared to normal React
05:38	the-kenny	boxed: Yup, that sounds right.
05:38	locks	isn't Reagent basically bindinds to ReacT?
05:39	nathan7	hellofunk: But Om might be doing something smarter than just identity comparison
05:39	nathan7	hellofunk: by using cursors and all
05:39	the-kenny	On the plus side for Om: It might know which subtree(s) changed without even comparing them to the last state, so it can optimize even further by telling React only those differences
05:39	the-kenny	That's a big plus, brought by the cursors.
05:39	hellofunk	nathan7 Om has some quite sophisticated source code worth looking at, it is doing some very interesting things
05:41	boxed	the-kenny: you’d have to have a pretty huge tree of state for that to make much difference though right? I mean, if a subpart has changed it should be at worst binary search type time complexity to find that subtree?
05:41	michihuber	could somebody help me out with a silly java issue (never did java stuff before)?
05:41	michihuber	$ jar tf ./some.jar \| grep ragtime/main
05:41	michihuber	ragtime/main$_main.class
05:41	michihuber	…
05:41	michihuber	ragtime/main$migrate.class
05:41	michihuber	…
05:41	michihuber	ragtime/main__init.class
05:41	michihuber	ragtime/main.clj
05:41	michihuber	$ java -cp ./some.jar ragtime.main migrate
05:41	michihuber	Error: Could not find or load main class ragtime.main
05:41	the-kenny	michihuber: Aww don't paste code here please.
05:42	michihuber	sorry
05:44	mi6x3m	how does clojure abbreviate clojure.string?
05:44	mi6x3m	strng?
05:44	the-kenny	boxed: Yes, that's right. Still I find it more pleasant to have constant-time diffing in case of transact! or update!
05:45	the-kenny	mi6x3m: I usually use [clojure.string :as s] or just :refer [...], if that's what you're asking
05:45	mi6x3m	the-kenny: i also only refer usually
05:45	mi6x3m	but recently thought i might start to abbreviate
05:45	mi6x3m	tnx
05:46	nathan7	mi6x3m: :as str perhaps?
05:46	nathan7	(str/join …) reads nicely
05:46	mi6x3m	nathan7: shadows str
05:46	nathan7	mi6x3m: that doesn't really matter
05:46	nathan7	mi6x3m: namespaces don't shadow vars
05:47	mi6x3m	nathan7: ah, then str is indeed better :)
05:47	mi6x3m	didn't know that
05:47	nathan7	I do it all the time
05:47	nathan7	I have a type called Metric, vars containing it usually called metric
06:06	Glenjamin	they make it sound simple, but there's some serious work gone into efficient tree diffs and IE8 support
06:06	mtrimpe	The big advantage of a Clojure version would be that it wouldn't need to do tree diffs of course...
06:06	kerneis	Om more or less directly translates React's idea of a single global state flowing through
06:07	Glenjamin	mtrimpe: you still need tree diffs to decide what to do to the DOM
06:07	kerneis	but while it is important in javascript to ease design and immutability, I'm not sure it's necessary to keep it in cljs
06:07	Glenjamin	and if you have any derived data being passed to child components, identity checks aren't particularly useful anymore
06:08	Glenjamin	eg (map func coll) will never pass an identity check
06:08	mtrimpe	Glenjamin: An idiomatic Clojure clone would be closer to what e.g. Hoplon does...
06:09	Glenjamin	ah, hoplon seems neat
06:09	mtrimpe	Glenjamin: Track changes in the data and then figure out the optimal way to reflect how that affects the DOM
06:11	mtrimpe	Yeah; except Hoplon doesn't really buy into the React philosophy of only keeping visible elements in the DOM
06:12	mtrimpe	A Clojure react clone could be something like a source atom with a function that builds a UI from that data…
06:12	mtrimpe	and then have a macro that memoizes that function graph and applies changes only when needed...
06:15	the-kenny	I don't really see the point in rewriting React in Clojure(Script). Way too much work, and (as far as I can see) it already integrates quite fine
06:17	mtrimpe	Yeah that's the thing… React gets you 80% of the way there with 20% of the effort.
06:18	mtrimpe	Would still love a pure Clojure version though… I'm pretty sure you would end up with something simpler…
06:20	the-kenny	likely. Still I would never even want to think about re-implementing the event system in a correct way over all the browser implementations ;)
06:22	mtrimpe	Yeah; that's the biggie React handles under the hood...
06:23	mtrimpe	Still; even a version that doesn't paper over those problems (yet) could already be valuable…
06:31	nathan7	the-kenny: It's mostly "hey that seems fun and interesting to do"
06:57	martinklepsch	when using projectile in emacs it somehow uses my src/projectname directory as root rather tan the one that contains project.clj
06:57	martinklepsch	anyone had that problem as well?
06:59	hellofunk	the-kenny i'm curious how Om handles the situation where you write over an entire vector but only one of the items in the vector changes; is it smart enough (or perhaps this is on the React side) to not update other items that did not change?
07:00	the-kenny	hellofunk: I think so. build-all uses the index as :react-key, iirc.
07:00	the-kenny	hellofunk: You can also provide your own react-key.
07:01	hellofunk	the-kenny okay so if I completely replace [1 2 3] with [1 5 3], there would be the advantage of the persistent data structure not change the 1 and 3 and then the additional advantage of React not seeing any changes on the 1 and 3 even if they were actually recreated?
07:01	the-kenny	I think so
07:02	the-kenny	I'm not sure if Om will trigger the component-function for each val in the vector though.
07:03	the-kenny	hellofunk: the key-stuff also makes sure that components don't get destroyed and recreated if their index changes.
07:03	hellofunk	I wonder if it makes a difference for performance if you use om/update! on a deep cursor passed as an arg to a component, or if you use a path of korks in an update to the main parent app-state, each of these should be equally as fast?
07:04	the-kenny	Not sure, but the API would allow to optimize both
08:01	sharps	Need help: working with File i/o, but I want my clojure CLI to open current user's $EDITOR the same way Git opens it for messages. How would i go about doing that?
08:05	luxbock	https://github.com/hhutch/om-bootstrap/blob/master/src/om_bootstrap/dom.clj
08:05	luxbock	I'm trying to figure out why `(gen-react-dom-inline-fns)` is needed at all in this code but I can't wrap my head around it
08:06	luxbock	I know it's needed as if I comment it out then the thing stops working
08:06	luxbock	but I just don't see where the macros that get created from that call are ever used
08:07	kerneis	sharps: copy the file to a temporary location, exec $EDITOR temp-file, wait for editor to return, copy modified file back
08:07	kerneis	(or exec editor directly on the original file)
08:08	kerneis	sharps: http://clojure.github.io/clojure/clojure.java.shell-api.html should be useful
08:09	Glenjamin	luxbock: https://github.com/hhutch/om-bootstrap/blob/master/src/om_bootstrap/dom.cljs#L2
08:09	Glenjamin	it makes more sense in the real om source
08:15	luxbock	Glenjamin: sorry what do you mean in the real Om source?
08:17	xavierriley	What's the best option for jumping between tests and code in emacs?
08:18	bob2	clojure-test-mode
08:18	luxbock	my trouble in understanding this is that I don't see how the call to `gen-react-dom-fns` in dom.cljs invokes any of the macros created by `(gen-react-dom-inline-fns)`
08:18	bob2	unless technomancy 's fancy thing is working now
08:19	xavierriley	thanks - I think I'm setting up at a point where I fall between the cracks of fancy thing working and test-mode being deprecated
08:21	twiceaday	can i paste
08:21	twiceaday	here really short example of the source code in clojure that i am trying to understand ?
08:21	twiceaday	it is solution to this
08:21	twiceaday	http://www.4clojure.com/problem/28
08:27	vyorkin	hi everyone! i'm trying to solve a very simple task in clojure, its http nested parameters parsing, here is my solution http://pastebin.com/xNHG3ha0
08:28	vyorkin	it almost works, but i'm doing smth wrong because if i have a nested array it'll be overriden by the next hashmap
08:29	vyorkin	e.g. a need to get a "d" ["1" "2"] not just "d" ["2"]
08:29	vyorkin	what am i doing wrong?
08:30	kerneis	twiceaday: if its a one-liner it's fine, otherwise use a pastebin service
08:30	vyorkin	(by overriden i mean overwritten, sorry)
08:31	bob2	do you mean "I'm trying to parse php-style GET parameters"?
08:31	vyorkin	it's a rails-style also as far as i know
08:31	vyorkin	rack-style, excuse me
08:38	kerneis	vyorkin: notwithstanding your bug, you miss a "w" in your expected result
08:38	kerneis	(or I don't understand what you are trying to do)
08:40	vyorkin	kerneis: oh, sorry, i right, but unfortunately thats not the main problem(
08:40	vyorkin	kerneis: i expect to get {"x" ["1" "2" "3"], "a" {"b" {"w" {"y" "3"}}, "c" "2", "d" ["1" "2"]}}
08:41	vyorkin	kerneis: but i've got {"x" ["1" "2" "3"], "a" {"b" {"w" {"y" "3"}}, "c" "2", "d" ["2"]}}
08:42	vyorkin	kerneis: i right = you are right
08:45	kerneis	vyorkin: your problem is that:
08:45	kerneis	,(into {"d" ["1"]} {"d" ["2"]})
08:45	clojurebot	{"d" ["2"]}
08:46	kerneis	because:
08:47	kerneis	,(conj {"d" ["1"]} {"d" ["2"]})
08:47	clojurebot	{"d" ["2"]}
08:47	kerneis	namely, conj does not do what you have in mind
08:48	kerneis	(and into uses conj implicitly)
08:48	vyorkin	omg, thanks, didn't know about this
08:48	vyorkin	i can see now this (reduce conj to from)
08:49	vyorkin	now i wonder how to implement this correcty (%
08:49	mercwithamouth	o_O;
08:49	kerneis	well you should try and write a function to use instead of into
08:50	kerneis	when you are done, maybe you'll notice this is an already existing function (but I don't think so at first sight)
08:50	vyorkin	when to you think about my solution? i've just started to learn clojure
08:51	vyorkin	so may be there is a better way to solve this? how bad my code is? (%
08:53	kerneis	I don't have much clue about the whole problem, because I don't know what the original specification is exactly
08:53	kerneis	the format since very crappy to be honnest
08:53	kerneis	but in any case, you might be interested in this function:
08:54	kerneis	,(update-in {"d" ["1"]} ["d"] conj "2")
08:54	clojurebot	{"d" ["1" "2"]}
08:54	vyorkin	kerneis: thanks!
08:54	kerneis	,(update-in {"a" {"d" ["1"]}} ["a" "d"] conj "2")
08:54	clojurebot	{"a" {"d" ["1" "2"]}}
08:57	kerneis	if you are smart enough, I believe you can get rid of transform, and directly (reduce #(update-in ...) {})
08:58	vyorkin	kerneis: thanks for your feedback
08:58	xavierriley	I'm just trying a code kata and leiningen seems to be holding onto some previous version. I run `lein test` and it says 1 test containing 0 assertions when I have 4 assertions and I've definitely saved the file. Any suggestions as to how I sort this out?
08:59	vyorkin	kerneis: i'll try to do this by myself, cuz i need to learn
08:59	kerneis	(I have an almost solution, don't hesitate to ask if you need more details)
08:59	kerneis	(but you are right, it's better if you dig it by yourself)
09:00	Glenjamin	xavierriley: try lein clean
09:01	xavierriley	no difference with lein clean
09:17	xavierriley	`lein clean` thing turns out to be PEBCAK - I didn't use (is ..) in the tests
09:28	imperman	Hi, does anybody know any Clojure HDL DSL (for digital design FPGA/ASIC)? I found PIplin (https://github.com/dgrnbrg/piplin) but it's not longer in development.
09:29	mr-foobar	seangrove: is there a protocol for undo/redo/state ?
09:31	imperman	mr-foobar: maybe try to add a watcher function. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9847245/pattern-for-implementing-undo-redo-in-clojure
09:33	gfredericks	,(def a (doto (atom nil) (add-watch :x (fn [_ a old new] (alter-meta! a update-in [:history] (fnil conj []) old)))))
09:33	clojurebot	#'sandbox/a
09:33	gfredericks	,(swap! a (constantly 12))
09:33	clojurebot	12
09:33	gfredericks	,(swap! a inc)
09:33	clojurebot	13
09:33	gfredericks	,(swap! a inc)
09:33	clojurebot	14
09:33	gfredericks	,(swap! a + 5)
09:33	clojurebot	19
09:34	gfredericks	,(:history (meta a))
09:34	clojurebot	[nil 12 13 14]
09:36	mr-foobar	neat, thx gfredericks, imperman !
09:46	mr-foobar	https://i.imgur.com/1ZuiGic.jpg :)
09:48	imperman	mr-foobar: http://aphyr.com/data/posts/314/monads.jpg ;)
09:52	razum2um	I'm trying to release to clojars but signing fails like this https://gist.github.com/razum2um/87ec980408ad1c77a55b (using mac 10.9) why i'm not asked for gpg passphrase?
09:52	mr-foobar	imperman: that's it, if I ever have a pet I will call it state and put it in a box :)
09:54	Fare	mr-foobar: with all those monadic combinators starting with m- I read your name as m-foobar and was wondering what kind of combinator you were.
09:55	Fare	Anyone going to the International Lisp Conference 2014 in Montreal (Aug 15-17) ?
09:55	mr-foobar	Fare: i am the unrepairable kind :)
09:57	jdkealy	i have been using om to build a tab component, onclick it sets the state of the tab component as some key, and then calls om/build function on the appropriate passed in component, however i'm finding that if i click on tab, then another, then go back to the first, IDidMount appears to never be called the second time I build it. I tried passing in a new react key every time, but still.
09:58	ambrosebs	Fare: yes
10:00	mr-foobar	jdkealy: if tab-component is rendered once, the IDidMount is also called once.
10:00	Glenjamin	if the key is different it should cause a did-mount
10:02	imperman	Fare: hm... to far away from Ukraine :(
10:03	nathan7	razum2um: do you have a gpg agent configured at all?
10:03	jdkealy	yeah it's strange, i'll debug some more try try to figure out what's going on
10:03	Fare	imperman, it's a small world. $ not km is the distance that matter.
10:05	imperman	Fare: course, it's far away in $ at now ))
10:06	jdkealy	so hypothetically, if you don't pass in a react key, it should call IDidUpdate when you om/build the component again ?
10:07	Glenjamin	jdkealy: if shouldUpdate was true, yeah
10:07	jdkealy	i thought in the docs, it basically said "never use shouldUpdate"
10:08	Glenjamin	in om you probably don't need to touch it, this is true
10:22	michaelr525	Hi
10:22	michaelr525	I'd like to do the basic Om tutorial here: https://github.com/swannodette/om/wiki/Basic-Tutorial
10:23	michaelr525	Using Emacs and cider instead of lighttable
10:23	michaelr525	How should I go about it?
10:24	nullptr`	michaelr525: the easy way is to skip the live brower repl and just hit refresh
10:24	michaelr525	nullptr`: i see
10:39	boxed	am I missing something? I can’t find how to do named groups in regexes…
10:40	michaelr525	nullptr`: why go the easy way when we can go the hard way :)
10:41	michaelr525	nullptr: what's the shortest route for adding a brepl?
10:42	nullptr	once upon a time it was https://github.com/cemerick/austin
10:43	michaelr525	nullptr: 10x
10:43	cbp	michaelr525: use weasel
10:43	michaelr525	weasel?!
10:43	cbp	it's faster and easier than austin
10:44	cbp	and not as buggy
10:44	cbp	$google clojure weasel
10:44	lazybot	[tomjakubowski/weasel · GitHub] https://github.com/tomjakubowski/weasel
10:45	michaelr525	cbp: i'll check it thanks!
10:47	michaelr525	it's readme is definitely shorter
10:47	hhenkel	Hi all, is there a way to use mapcat in a way that I can give one collection that is applied and a second collection is given as one whole thing?
10:48	Glenjamin	hhenkel: can you give an example input/output please?
10:49	hhenkel	Glenjamin: I'll try, omething like (mapcat my-func [ 1 2 3 ] [ a b c]) where the [a b c] should handed over completly.
10:49	borkdude	what is up with Uncaught ReferenceError: goog is not defined app.js:1 (anonymous function) in a compiled clojurescript js file?
10:51	Glenjamin	hhenkel: so (my-func 1 [ a b c ]) ?
10:52	hhenkel	Glenjamin: yes, and so on for the other values
10:52	Glenjamin	(mapcat #(apply my-func % others) [ 1 2 3])
10:54	nullptr	alt: (mapcat my-func [1 2 3] (repeat [a b c]))
10:55	hhenkel	Glenjamin: nullptr: I think I'll go with the alternative version as % is allready in use in my code.
10:55	kerneis	borkdude: <script src="out/goog/base.js" type="text/javascript"></script>
10:55	kerneis	or something like that?
10:56	kerneis	at least that's what Om tutorial does
10:56	borkdude	kerneis Thanks. I wonder why this html doesn't have it: https://github.com/ckirkendall/kioo/blob/master/example/om/index.html
10:57	verma	borkdude, it depends on the optimization level you use
10:57	verma	You need those explicit includes for :optimizations :none
10:57	verma	but can avoid those for :whitespace and :advanced
10:58	borkdude	verma ah, thank you
10:59	hhenkel	nullptr: Glenjamin: Thanks a lot, seems to work just fine!
11:00	kerneis	,(into #clojurescript #clojure)
11:00	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: )>
11:03	ambrosebs	arrdem: nice work with grimoire.
11:03	verma	inside a clojure macro, is there a way to request a random variable name? I know about hello#, but I need to ask clojure for a random variable the same way hello# does
11:04	ssideris	verma: gensym
11:04	Glenjamin	,(doc gen-sym)
11:04	clojurebot	excusez-moi
11:04	Glenjamin	,(doc gensym)
11:04	clojurebot	"([] [prefix-string]); Returns a new symbol with a unique name. If a prefix string is supplied, the name is prefix# where # is some unique number. If prefix is not supplied, the prefix is 'G__'."
11:04	verma	thanks ssideris, Glenjamin :)
11:07	jdkealy	i'm stuck on an issue in om. i built tabs, where onClick they call om/build on the appropriate component. i click one tab, and fine, i go back, and it does not render correctly. I wanted to be sure that the component mounts before I make call to a function in the render state, so I call (om/set-state! owner :mounted true) inside the DidMount call, however even though (did-mount) does get called, IRenderState never renders
11:07	jdkealy	with the state :mounted true...
11:09	verma	jdkealy, some code would be nice
11:09	clojurebot	excusez-moi
11:09	jdkealy	ok making a gist
11:09	bteuber	jdkealy: not so familiar with om, but why do you render from the on-click?
11:09	hhenkel	nullptr: Glenjamin: Do you know if the return values may change when using mapcat with repeat?
11:09	bteuber	when I build tabs without om, I just toggle display:none
11:10	bteuber	so if I would build them with, I would do the same and render on the outside of that
11:10	bteuber	I guess
11:10	jdkealy	i'm debating doing just that :)... I just thought it will make unnecessary http calls
11:11	bteuber	true probably better let om take care of which one is visible
11:11	verma	I just try to keep my renders just about rendering and nothing else
11:12	hhenkel	I'm expecting something like "portal1, portal2" but instead I get a lazy seq that looks like this: ( \p \o \r \t \a \l \1\p \o \r \t \a \l \2)
11:12	hhenkel	From within my code I see with trace that I get strings
11:13	cbp	that happens when you concat 2 strings
11:13	cbp	just add (apply str ..) to that
11:14	cbp	or use clojure.string/join
11:15	hhenkel	cbp: I don't use concat (I would say). I'll give the line of code.
11:15	bteuber	mapcat calls concat
11:16	hhenkel	cbp: (mapcat get-replacements (distinct (re-seq #"\$\{.+?\}" %)) (repeat collection))
11:16	bteuber	hhenkel: (clojure.string/join (map get-replacements ...)) should do the job
11:16	bteuber	or (apply str (map ...)
11:18	hhenkel	bteuber: okay, I'll try. Thought I tested it and got stuff I was expecting though...
11:20	quangquach	Is there anyway to use update-in to update a value in a map w/o passing an anonymous function? (as I am a Clojure beginner)
11:20	kerneis	this is the main issue with dynamically-typed languages
11:20	quangquach	for example: (update-in {:a 3} [:a] (fn [_] 4))
11:20	cbp	quangquach: assoc-in
11:20	quangquach	ah, just checked that, thanks
11:21	rkneufeld	quangquach: (fn [_] 4) is also equivalent to (constantly 4), but cbp's suggestion is most appropriate
11:22	bteuber	note that (assoc-in m [x y z] 42) == (update-in m [x y] assoc z 42)
11:23	quangquach	they're really helpful, thanks.
11:23	arrdem	which is really (update m x update y update z assoc 42)...
11:24	hhenkel	bteuber: Okay, my mistake I tested it in a short example before I implented it within my code and there I was returning a vector not a plain string...
11:24	quangquach	While trying Clojure, I see many ways to do one task at a time.
11:25	jdkealy	verma: here's my gist https://gist.github.com/jdkealy/217f56e10349642c3996
11:25	jdkealy	you could see the first component mounts the first time, but the second time, it fails the if clause, and the state never updates appropriately
11:29	verma	jdkealy, taking a look
11:30	gfredericks	how do I convince leiningen to not try to sign git tags?
11:33	gfredericks	apparently leiningen does not want to be convinced of this
11:34	verma	jdkealy, I don't think you need to explicitly call om/get-state in IRenderState since the state is being passed to you already
11:34	jdkealy	ok, but all the same, the state object doesn't have the :mounted property either
11:34	verma	jdkealy, don't think that'd fix the issue, but just a thought
11:34	gfredericks	time for lein-shell
11:35	gfredericks	wait nevermind
11:37	jdkealy	verma, so om/set-state :mounted true does get called, but iRenderState never picks it up
11:37	cbp	:-o
11:46	angusiguess	Does anyone have a link to something containing the <? macro?
11:48	arrdem	angusiguess: <? isn't a macro, it's a special symbol that the go macro looks for and compiles.
11:48	angusiguess	@arrdem I was under the impression it wasn't in core.async yet.
11:52	jdkealy	so in my gist, if you click "tab 1" twice, it will render appropriately, but one click will render it without that state property even though i can see the call to set-state! is indeed being made
11:52	seangrove	Of course <? is un-googleable. Does it take only non-nil values off of a channel?
11:53	angusiguess	I found this: http://martintrojer.github.io/clojure/2014/03/09/working-with-coreasync-exceptions-in-go-blocks/
11:53	angusiguess	Which describes <?
11:53	gfredericks	seangrove: you can't put nil values onto a channel in the first place
11:54	seangrove	gfredericks: Yeah, thought that immediately after writing that
11:54	angusiguess	It's a pattern for exception handling.
11:54	Frozenlo`	seangrove: sometimes this works http://symbolhound.com/
11:55	seangrove	angusiguess: Got it, thanks. Looks interesting
11:55	angusiguess	seangrove np!
11:55	andyf_	/whois arrdem
11:55	arrdem	some random asshat
11:55	seangrove	~arrdem
11:55	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
11:55	andyf_	Ugh. How did my client just send that to the channel
11:56	verma	jdkealy, sorry was away, I am going to try and run this
11:56	seangrove	clojurebot: arrdem is on the edge, and best left alone
11:56	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
11:56	jdkealy	thanks verma!
11:57	arrdem	hum.. I used to have a couple clojurebot entries... I guess that's part of my hellban. shrug
11:58	jeremyheiler	andyf_: think you put a space before teh command
11:58	andyf_	Yeah, probably so.
12:02	andyf_	Is there a story to who taught the bots Celtic curses, and why?
12:03	gfredericks	clojurebot: why?
12:03	clojurebot	why is the ram gone
12:05	verma	jdkealy, I am seeing what you're seeing I think
12:05	jdkealy	cool!
12:05	jdkealy	so i'm not crazy!
12:06	jdkealy	i mean... i could go the show/hide route, but that would mean me conceding that i have no idea how to control how om re-renders a component, which is sad
12:07	verma	no, I don't think you'd have to do that, may be some re-ordering is in order, what do you intend to do with the :mounter property
12:09	jdkealy	well... there's another call which is inside component one, which requires me to detect the width of component one, without the mounted property it's buggy, sometimes detects the width, sometimes doesn't
12:09	verma	jdkealy, I changed the call to (js/setTimeout #(om/set-state! owner :mounted true) 100)) and it seems to notice it
12:10	jdkealy	hmmmm... that's interesting, but is that really a fix ?
12:10	jdkealy	i mean... i could work with that
12:12	verma	yeah, with a timeout of 0 :) .. but I guess I would try to understand the exact semantics behind this and why state updates in did-mount don't work
12:12	verma	either dig through om or have dnolen_ take a look
12:14	jdkealy	what's the best way to have him look? I see a lot of people putting crap issues on the issues list on github, i don't wanna get flagged as a chump :)
12:14	jdkealy	think this qualifies for github issues ?
12:21	jdkealy	well anyway, the timeout thing appears to work fine, i'll just chalk it up to too many updates at once and some asynchronicity issues
12:23	verma	jdkealy, I don't think I understand what you're trying to do with that prop, so may be once you have it worked out with this hack may be we can take a look at it, issue would be the best way, but do some research before you post it I would guess.
12:29	verma	jdkealy, Om does some stuff here: https://github.com/swannodette/om/blob/master/src/om/core.cljs#L324
12:42	TimMc	,(.next (.iterator (vec ())))
12:42	clojurebot	#<NullPointerException java.lang.NullPointerException>
12:42	TimMc	I think that's the wrong exception...
12:43	TimMc	,(.next (.iterator #{}))
12:43	clojurebot	#<NoSuchElementException java.util.NoSuchElementException>
12:45	andyf_	TimMc: vote for CLJ-1453, assuming it is the same issue
12:47	andyf_	Full link: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1453
12:49	tbaldridge	anyone here have some experience with test.check?
12:50	tbaldridge	I'm trying to write a generator that creates values that are based on previous values generated.
12:50	reiddraper	tbaldridge: me me!
12:50	tbaldridge	hey, I was looking for you ;-)
12:51	tbaldridge	got an example of that? I'm generating a list of commands to run against my API. the return values of some commands I need to use as parameters to other generated commands.
12:51	gfredericks	bind
12:51	reiddraper	indeed, bind is your friend there,
12:51	gfredericks	tbaldridge: allow me to plug this for macro I created
12:52	gfredericks	tbaldridge: https://github.com/gfredericks/test.chuck#for
12:52	reiddraper	https://github.com/clojure/test.check/blob/master/doc/intro.md#bind
12:52	reiddraper	i might recommend playing with bind before the macro, but that's just me
12:52	dnolen_	jdkealy: a minimal example w/ no extra context and I will take a look.
12:52	gfredericks	reid and I are competitors in the test.check business
12:55	tbaldridge	I'll think about bind a bit, this could get interesting....
12:55	Frozenlock	Google, stop sending me to clojuredocs for v1.2!!
12:55	arrdem	http://grimoire.arrdem.com/1.6.0/
12:56	arrdem	yeah not sure what to do about clojuredocs unfortuate pagerank score...
12:56	bbloom	arrdem: needs a more "official" sounding domain & everybody has to link to that, so that google learns it's fucking lesson
12:56	Frozenlock	arrdem: Ah right
12:56	bbloom	its*
12:56	arrdem	bbloom: you saw my clojure@googlegroups post about an "official" domain, right?
12:56	andyf_	And give it more Google juice by whatever means works for that. Link to it somehow?
12:57	bbloom	arrdem: nope
12:57	reiddraper	tbaldridge: dunno if you'll find this helpful,but the type of bind is: bind :: Generator a -> (a -> Generator b) -> Generator b
12:57	arrdem	Frozenlock: hard coded HTML ftw. the sidebar never unhides itself
12:57	technomancy	Frozenlock: sponsored UI elements (mcdonalds)
12:57	cbp	im lovin it
12:58	Frozenlock	Wasn't there a search field?
12:58	tbaldridge	reiddraper: yeah, I understand how it works, but what I'm doing is a bit more complex. Imagine that "testing clojure collections" thing but while testing multiple types of collections at once.
12:58	cbp	Frozenlock: home page
12:58	arrdem	bbloom: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/clojure/ctNJUvhhkPg/rOpWO5UYrg0J
12:59	Frozenlock	cbp: Ah thansk
12:59	Frozenlock	thanks even
12:59	reiddraper	tbaldridge: i'll be shocked if what you want to do can't be done with some combination of fmap and bind
12:59	bbloom	a more important question is how come your hamburger menu has different spacing between the top and bottom lines?
12:59	tbaldridge	reiddraper: right, I think it can be done, I just need to play around with it a bit
12:59	tbaldridge	thanks for the help everyone.
12:59	reiddraper	tbaldridge: i've got a call in a couple of minutes, but will be around after and can try and help
13:00	TimMc	reiddraper: I wrote an Iterable tester using simple-check.
13:00	arrdem	bbloom: 5/5 would take github issue for your ocd
13:00	TimMc	Turns out myimpl is correct, but vector's is not. :-P
13:00	andyf_	Hamburger menu?
13:00	arrdem	andyf_: the hamburger button in the top left
13:00	TimMc	andyf_: Thanks!
13:00	cbp	andyf_: 3 horizontal lines make a hamburger
13:01	Frozenlock	andyf_: http://s.mlkshk.com/r/LOQQ
13:01	luxbock	I'm trying to get Weasel to work, but after I start the the CLJS-repl via cemerick.piggieback/cljs-repl and try connecting to ws://localhost:9001 nothing happens
13:01	bbloom	or in this case, an underlined equals sign?
13:01	luxbock	I'm using this: https://github.com/jacksonja/clj-cljs-weasel-template
13:01	TimMc	bbloom: I thought it was struck through!
13:01	luxbock	if I try to access localhost:9001 without the ws:// protocol then I get a message telling me to connect with web-socket
13:02	bbloom	TimMc: i haven't found the source yet, so i'll let you know what i discover, heh
13:02	cbp	luxbock: use the ws:// then?
13:02	jdkealy	Hi dnolen_! I stripped down my example a little bit. https://gist.github.com/jdkealy/f8b6db5829406fc2030d... Interestingly, if I skip "app-view" and set tabs to be the root, the issue does not occur. Basically the issue being that render-state (in component one) does not have the state changes made in DidMount https://gist.github.com/jdkealy/f8b6db5829406fc2030d
13:02	luxbock	cbp: nothing happens when I use that
13:03	jdkealy	(btw, dnolen_, i went to your kitchen table coders event 3 months ago... great stuff!)
13:04	andyf_	TimMc: Please do comment on that ticket, or provide a better patch, if you find any issues with it
13:05	cbp	luxbock: are you using (ws-repl/connect "ws://localhost:9001" :verbose true) ?
13:06	bbloom	TimMc: arrdem: it's magic
13:06	bbloom	i have no idea where the hamburger is coming from
13:06	bbloom	apparently i don't know how to use computers
13:06	arrdem	hamburgers \|are\| magic
13:07	luxbock	cbp: from the cljs-repl? I didn't try that but it doesn't appear to work either
13:07	luxbock	I was trying to use my browser to connect to the address
13:07	bbloom	holy crap
13:07	bbloom	it's made out of borders...
13:07	bbloom	cringe
13:07	cbp	luxbock: thats the cljs that creates the js that connects to your repl
13:08	cbp	luxbock: as in you compile that and then load that from your browser
13:08	arrdem	bbloom: er... ew. okay. definitely issue worthy then.
13:08	bbloom	boom: https://github.com/arrdem/grimoire/pull/47
13:09	bbloom	css/html/js are all stupid
13:09	cbp	i know right
13:09	luxbock	cbp: yeah I've compiled it, and I've tried opening the index.html file that ships with the template, though now that I'm looking at the console it's telling me that goog is not defined
13:10	luxbock	so maybe there's something wrong with the cljsbuild-settings of the project, hmm
13:10	cbp	luxbock: you need to do the <script> tags for goog.base.js or whatever
13:10	Frozenlock	http://grimoire.arrdem.com/1.6.0/clojure.core/ I can't search the page if I didn't click to expand. :-(
13:10	arrdem	Frozenlock: yeah known issue
13:11	cbp	I don't know if there's a decent clojurescript tutorial around
13:11	arrdem	Frozenlock: I don't have a good fix for that yet.
13:11	luxbock	yeah it doesn't appear that this project, generated via that clj-cljs-weasel template, has base.js at all
13:11	cbp	I know it was a pain to get it all to work the first time
13:11	arrdem	Frozenlock: pls can have gh issue for that? one doesn't exist yet.
13:11	Frozenlock	sure
13:11	arrdem	thanks
13:11	luxbock	I've had a working Austin repl before but I read somewhere that this is the new thing to use
13:11	Frozenlock	I like to criticize without doing any work :-p
13:12	Frozenlock	Btw, why are those hidden away?
13:12	cbp	luxbock: it is a much better experience than austin
13:12	arrdem	well as bbloom is ample proof my real strategy is to commit only the set of errors sufficiently egregious to motivate someone else to fix them for me..
13:12	cbp	it's like fast and doesn't randomly break!
13:13	luxbock	good to hear, then it's worth figuring out why this template is not working :)
13:13	bbloom	arrdem: i only fixed it b/c i was incredulous that i couldn't find the source of the problem within 5 seconds in the inspector
13:13	bbloom	have i mentioned that css/html/js are stupid?
13:14	bbloom	took me 11 damn minutes
13:14	cbp	you also don't need a freaking server to use cljs on a local html file
13:14	arrdem	new build is deployed. enjoy bbloom's hamburger everyone.
13:14	Frozenlock	Oooooh
13:15	Frozenlock	much nicer
13:15	bbloom	it's glorious
13:15	cbp	i want an actual hamburguer
13:15	Frozenlock	I still have to use the mouse to open the menu.
13:15	Glenjamin	an actual hamburger would be hilarious
13:15	Glenjamin	Frozenlock: i intend to put a JS-based search on all the pages soon
13:16	Glenjamin	probably with a shortcut key to focus it
13:16	cbp	oh?
13:16	arrdem	Glenjamin: if I had a way to map your user-agent string to your IRC handle I would totally support per-user customization
13:16	Glenjamin	cbp: i haven't started yet
13:16	Glenjamin	beyond raising the issue on github for discussion
13:17	cbp	luxbock: https://github.com/tomjakubowski/weasel#usage That works for me
13:17	Glenjamin	arrdem: JS can set cookies, that's probably good enough
13:17	technomancy	weird that the hamburger isn't considered a click target by hit-a-hint
13:17	technomancy	no idea what it uses as a heuristic
13:17	Glenjamin	oh wow, it's a label
13:18	Frozenlock	joys of webdev
13:18	arrdem	there's a reason I lurk in the compiler..
13:19	Glenjamin	but yeah, JS powered site search is vaugely on my "i should add that" list
13:19	Glenjamin	basically the cheatsheet's search, but on every page
13:19	cbp	oh
13:19	cbp	i was gonna do an autocomplete thing where you type clojure.string/join and press enter and switch to the page
13:20	arrdem	one possible "real answer" is to flatten this thing into a single page webapp so that rather than linking to another page, clicking a cheathseet link or entering a fully qualified var replaces the cheatsheet body with the symbol documentation body
13:20	arrdem	then you only have to have "search" in one place because the whole thing becomes flat
13:20	arrdem	but idk how that'd play with my existing structure. probably badly.
13:20	Glenjamin	i was gonna do https://twitter.github.io/typeahead.js/ + JSON list of all symbols
13:21	Glenjamin	or similar
13:21	arrdem	that'd work.
13:21	dnolen_	jdkealy: sorry by minimal I really mean nothing but Om - maybe core.async if there's a weird interaction happening
13:21	dnolen_	no domina, sablono, etc
13:22	jdkealy	gotcha
13:22	luxbock	cbp: at what point and with what address are you accessing the index.html file that has the goog.require script statements?
13:23	cbp	luxbock: i do lein repl. Type in the (require 'weasel..) and (cemerick.piggiback/..)
13:23	cbp	which turns it into a cljs repl
13:23	cbp	luxbock: then I make sure my cljs file has those 3 lines (ns my.cljs.core..) and (ws-repl/connect..)
13:24	cbp	luxbock: then I compile, make an html file with all the <scripts>, load that file in the browser and thats it
13:28	jdkealy	dnolen_ can i use gdom to set the om/root ?
13:31	luxbock	hmm yeah it appears that this template is a bit mungled up
13:34	puredanger	hey all, just a friendly reminder that the CFP for the Conj is open till Aug 1st http://clojure-conj.org/call-for-proposals
13:34	puredanger	carry on with your awesomeness
13:34	luxbock	cbp: thank you for your patience
13:35	luxbock	I got it working
13:40	jdkealy	sorry about that, dnolen_, now just using OM https://gist.github.com/jdkealy/14bc7181039ddef20367
13:48	cbp	luxbock: awesome
14:03	zanes	I’m trying to make a bunch of HTTP requests in parallel, process the results, and do an insertion into a database for each retrieved record. The tool I reached for for this was reducers, but the reducers documentation cautions against using reducers with operations that trigger I/O.
14:10	arrdem	well crud clojure/conj conflicts with SC14..
14:10	ludwig`	zanes: reducers aren't intended for your goal.
14:10	zanes	ludwig`: That’s the sense I’m getting.
14:11	zanes	ludwig`: core.async? I saw a thread on the Google Group about this.
14:11	ludwig`	zanes: it depends on whether you have synchronization constraints
14:11	zanes	No synchronization constraints.
14:11	zanes	But I’m kind of interested in both answers.
14:12	ludwig`	it depends on what exactly you want to parallelize
14:12	_alejandro	zanes: I've used core.async for similar things, but there's still some trouble around I/O esp if you want to parallelize say thousands of request
14:12	_alejandro	s
14:13	zanes	ludwig`: I mean, all of the operations can be done in parallel. There needn’t be any synchronization at all.
14:13	dnolen_	jdkealy: what am I supposed to be looking for again?
14:14	ludwig`	zanes: are the results of the operation necessary to respond to the request?
14:15	jdkealy	dnolen_: when you click on tab2 and go back to tab1, render-state does not pick up the (om/set-state) call in did-mount
14:15	zanes	ludwig`: Yes. I’m retrieving JSON via HTTP, transforming the JSON a bit and then doing a database insertion.
14:15	ludwig`	zanes: ah ok, I misunderstood you the first time and thought you were working on a request handler
14:16	ludwig`	zanes: I'd just start a bunch of Threads
14:17	ludwig`	or, if you have all the responses, you could run a pmap for the transformations
14:18	amalloy	if these requests are all against the same server, launching thousands of requests against it in parallel could reasonably be characterized as an attack. you want to regulate things more than opening all the threads at once
14:18	ludwig`	amalloy: agree
14:18	amalloy	even if they're different servers, thousands of requests at once will not be so great for your own machine
14:19	dnolen_	jdkealy: did you try implementing IUnmount to see if unmount is invoked?
14:20	jdkealy	no i did not. What would I do with that?
14:22	zanes	amalloy: Yes. I had imagined doing it in batches.
14:22	amalloy	zanes: you probably want a ThreadPoolExecutor
14:23	jdkealy	yes, i see unmount is called when you click on tab2
14:23	trptcolin	bbloom: do you have anything written up anywhere (or know of anyone else writing anything up) about why you don’t like the idea of doing something Rx-like on top of core.async, as you mention in https://github.com/brandonbloom/asyncx ?
14:24	bbloom	trptcolin: you're like the third person to ask me about that in the past week :-P
14:24	trptcolin	lol
14:24	bbloom	the summary of it is that i don't particularly think that linear async streams are that useful. most interesting async use cases involve multiplexing
14:24	trptcolin	i’ve heard dnolen_ say similar stuff but couldn’t find references. just looking for concrete reasons other than “do not want” :)
14:25	bbloom	it makes it too easy to do stuff that isn't worth doing
14:25	bbloom	i just had an email thread w/ ztellman too, he's working on some new thing
14:25	dnolen_	jdkealy: just covering bases before actually spending time debugging this myself :)
14:26	dnolen_	jdkealy: does tab one get unmounted that's the real question
14:26	jdkealy	yes
14:26	trptcolin	bbloom: what distinguishes multiplexing from something like an Observable of Observables?
14:27	bbloom	trptcolin: as i told ztellman, my experience w/ async stuff falls in to one of 3 buckets: GUI, single-machine services, and big distributed systems
14:27	bbloom	in the first case, i rather just have a global message pump instead of callbacks and/or pervasive async
14:27	bbloom	in the second case, i rather just have a few top level queues and some state machines each on a thread
14:27	PigDude	ok is somebody here actually working with core.async
14:27	PigDude	the lack of tracebacks is crippling
14:27	PigDude	or even error line numbers
14:27	bbloom	in the last case, i haven't ever felt a need for intraprocess asynchronity and parallelization, etc
14:28	bbloom	so i'm not the right guy to ask if you're interested in server use cases
14:28	amalloy	PigDude: you could fork core.async and remove the one line that's taking away your backtraces, until clojure/core gets around to fixing it for real
14:28	bbloom	or maybe i am, and the answer is "don't do that"
14:28	PigDude	a.malloy referred me to this as the source of the trouble https://github.com/clojure/core.async/commit/9fcae99576c0735a804bbd4cbec81307e2d34d90#diff-2193dd8597437d6454bb74edd2f15e00L26
14:28	dnolen_	jdkealy: you should also implement the will mount methods
14:28	PigDude	amalloy: it just feels like a joke, isn't this killing people?
14:28	PigDude	(not literally)
14:28	dnolen_	jdkealy: this is how I would debug this
14:28	PigDude	i mean, is anybody using core.async, or do they just use a version before this was introduced?
14:29	bbloom	trptcolin: about the observable of observables thing
14:29	amalloy	maybe core.async users are all amazingly good programmers who don't write bugs, and therefore never get exceptions
14:29	bbloom	trptcolin: the stream abstraction is kinda insufficient for thinking about scheduling and resource consumption
14:29	PigDude	haha
14:30	bbloom	trptcolin: if you look at the .net rx stuff, you'll see tons of crazy shit about schedulers and things
14:30	ToxicFrog	PigDude: I'm using core.async and I don't recall seeing this issue at all
14:30	ToxicFrog	What version are you using? I'm on 0.1.301
14:30	bbloom	trptcolin: http://www.introtorx.com/content/v1.0.10621.0/15_SchedulingAndThreading.html
14:31	PigDude	ToxicFrog: any exception in a go block/loop just shows the error message, like #<NullPointerException java.lang.NullPointerException>
14:31	ToxicFrog	Wow, that's incredibly useless
14:31	PigDude	ToxicFrog: i'm on "0.1.303.0-886421-alpha"
14:31	bbloom	trptcolin: maybe i'm just an old crumudgen, but i prefer a few top level loops w/ queues and shared state
14:31	ToxicFrog	PigDude: but I'm also not using go-blocks, I'm using true threads.
14:31	PigDude	ToxicFrog: i've gotten pretty far, considering. async log store working :)
14:31	bbloom	trptcolin: also, talk to ztellman b/c he knows more about this shit than me :-P
14:31	PigDude	i'll try with your version maybe
14:31	ztellman	haha
14:31	PigDude	is that the full version in your dependency?
14:32	ToxicFrog	PigDude: so if there's a problem specific to go-blocks, then I wouldn't be seeing it regardless.
14:32	PigDude	hm ok
14:32	ToxicFrog	PigDude: [org.clojure/core.async "0.1.301.0-deb34a-alpha"]
14:32	ztellman	I agree with bbloom that multiplexing is a fundamental design consideration
14:32	ztellman	as is the resource management that comes with it
14:33	trptcolin	this is probably because i’m not experienced enough with it, but i guess i’m just not getting what about the Rx model disallows multiplexing & resource management
14:33	ztellman	trptcolin: it doesn't disallow it, it just doesn't help much
14:33	PigDude	hey trptcolin it says on clojars you're the last guy to push core.async, do you know abotut his?
14:34	PigDude	oh maybe this is just a bad search engine result that led to your fork
14:34	amalloy	PigDude: the official core.async release is not on clojars
14:34	PigDude	where would i find it?
14:34	trptcolin	ok, so on the flip side: what is it about core.async that makes these easy
14:34	amalloy	maven central
14:34	amalloy	er
14:34	amalloy	maybe? i forget. they probably put it there
14:34	PigDude	ah, got it
14:34	PigDude	thanks amalloy
14:34	bbloom	trptcolin: ztellman: one of my favorite microsoftisms is the "pit of success" coined by Rico Mariani
14:35	bbloom	the idea is that you design stuff that makes you kinda fall in to the right approach
14:35	bbloom	a good design with respect to this principal is one that makes the path of least resistance the correct one
14:35	bbloom	i feel that Rx doesn't meet that criteria
14:35	technomancy	I like that metaphor
14:35	bbloom	it makes it easy to do stuff that will be giant resource leaks and complexity bug farms
14:36	technomancy	compelled to correctness by gravity
14:36	bbloom	righto
14:36	bbloom	Rx makes the wrong things easy
14:36	trptcolin	PigDude: uh weird i don’t remember doing anything to core.async. must have been some bug i had to patch real quick before the new version came out.
14:36	bbloom	and doesn't make the right things simple
14:36	bbloom	but for that matter, i think core.async almost makes the right things too easy ;-)
14:37	PigDude	probably
14:37	bbloom	that is, people use a lot more core async than they probably should
14:37	PigDude	thanks to amalloy's sleuthing i've got real-life error line numbers tracebacks, by using 0.1.262.0-151b23-alpha, released dec 9 2013
14:37	bbloom	a giant graph of channels and goroutines is not much better than a big pile of callbacks
14:37	amalloy	haha, you rolled back to an older snapshot?
14:37	PigDude	haha yea
14:38	bbloom	best part of core.async is that you get 1) an emulation of threads and 2) multiplex-able channels
14:38	ztellman	bbloom: isn't that just because the graph's opaque, though?
14:38	PigDude	amalloy: professional: develop w/ this version, then make sure they pass w/ latest :)
14:38	bbloom	ztellman: that's a big part of it, but not the only part
14:38	bbloom	that opaque graph also contains local state
14:39	ztellman	ok, granted
14:39	bbloom	and of course http://awelonblue.wordpress.com/2012/10/21/local-state-is-poison/
14:39	ztellman	ha, haven't seen that before
14:39	platz	problem comes when the "pit" is used beyond it's initial context. e.g. ActiveRecord/RoR
14:39	bbloom	and that includes the immutable values used as loop control variables too!
14:39	Glenjamin	i always assumed the idea was to use go-blocks + channels to make erlang style processes
14:39	platz	success can have disadvantages too
14:39	ztellman	Glenjamin: erlang-style processes aren't the easiest thing to reason about
14:39	Glenjamin	you send off a message to a little worker part of your app, and it sends you back some data later
14:40	ztellman	and that's with orders of magnitude more tooling to help you understand them, too
14:40	bbloom	a telling problem w/ actors is how hewett talks about "orgs" like human organizations, set up hierarchically
14:40	bbloom	but actor orgs have the same problems as human orgs: lack of transparency, redundancy, competition for resources, etc
14:41	Glenjamin	makes sense
14:41	bbloom	that's not to say it's a useless model
14:41	platz	e.g. conway's law
14:41	Glenjamin	an efficient org has a few small teams that don't get in each other's way
14:41	bbloom	sometimes lots of stuff gets done despite large amounts of waste
14:41	Glenjamin	i can see how that metaphor holds
14:41	amalloy	PigDude: well, i recommended instead forking the latest version and making the one change you need. now, if anything important has happened in the last half a year, you don't get those changes
14:41	bbloom	conway's law is so fucking true it's crazy
14:42	hiredman	actors aren't closed under composition either, the lack of symmetry is sad
14:42	bbloom	hiredman: which properties are not closed under which composition operators?
14:42	hiredman	bbloom: I mean, if you build a system out of actors, what you get is not an actor
14:43	bbloom	hiredman: i mean, it can be
14:44	ztellman	bbloom: but that's fundamentally a more limited model, rigth?
14:44	ztellman	right*
14:44	hiredman	bbloom: I think that distiction leads to the tarpit
14:44	bbloom	ztellman: which model is more limited?
14:44	ztellman	an actor model where all systems of actors are an actor
14:44	platz	this is part of the interest in the recent push of SOA (so-called microservices), actually it's more optimizing for the human factors rather than the technical ones
14:44	bbloom	ztellman: i mean, if you buy in to hewitt's crazy idea, everything is actors all the time and actors are the only thing that actually represent all of computation
14:44	PigDude	amalloy: yea, you're right, it's just another thing to do :\
14:44	bbloom	ztellman: but he's crazy
14:45	bbloom	he's also right, but not in a useful way :-P
14:45	ztellman	ok, it's been a while since I've read the original paper, but there is some concept of ordering, right?
14:45	bbloom	no
14:46	ztellman	even messages from a single actor?
14:46	bbloom	the theoretical model only says that the message will get there in some unbounded finite time, where the probability of delivery follows some asymtotic probability or something like that
14:47	bbloom	no promise of ordering
14:47	ztellman	oh, huh
14:47	platz	in akka we have 'or a given pair of actors, messages sent from the first to the second will not be received out-of-order'
14:47	bbloom	yeah, i think erlang promises order... (right?)
14:47	ztellman	right, which also holds true in Erlang
14:47	platz	but between any other two, no
14:47	ztellman	so if you have a system of actors 'acting' as a single actor, that guarantee goes out the window
14:47	ztellman	which is where I figured the composition broke down
14:48	ztellman	but I guess it depends on what definition of actor you use
14:48	bbloom	the problem is that hewitt needs a student to sit over his shoulder and copy edit for him when he posts on the internet
14:49	bbloom	somehow he has managed to piss off every single respected poster on lambda the ultimate :-P
14:49	bbloom	so if you try to read about the actual theoretical model, you just get angry at all the misinformation and confusion
14:49	bbloom	anyway, the wikipedia is pretty good: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor_model
14:49	bbloom	also, it's totally pointless to talk about, b/c we don't program turing machines, why should we program theoretical actor models?
14:50	bbloom	turns out promises, such as order, are useful
14:54	reiddraper	tbaldridge: back, you having any luck?
14:56	PigDude	amalloy: done, that stuff is just a pain ... setting up git submodule, install in checkouts ...
14:56	amalloy	PigDude: gross, why would you do any of that? just clone it, change the groupid in project.clj, and deploy to clojars. like trptcolin did
14:57	amalloy	or maybe in pom.xml; i guess clojure/core stuff often has no project.clj
14:58	PigDude	amalloy: i'd do that if i were working alone
15:07	gfredericks	man clojure sucks at SQL: https://www.refheap.com/88196
15:07	wkelly	haha
15:08	wkelly	this is where we need some reader macros
15:08	stuartsierra	PigDude: you can always find latest releases of org.clojure projects on http://search.maven.org/
15:08	gfredericks	reader macros that query your database
15:08	wkelly	exactly. what could possibly go wrong?
15:09	gfredericks	clojurebot: what \|could\| possibly go wrong
15:09	clojurebot	In Ordnung
15:10	MC-Escherichia	amalloy is that a courtesy thing...for example I use lein idefiles to hide clojure from my java colleagues
15:10	arrdem	clearly java.lang.String should be IFn and when applied execute as an SQL query against connection.
15:10	MC-Escherichia	and lein 2.4.0 broke it, the original author and technomancy haven't sorted it out yet, so I forked and patched in a different way than the author wants
15:11	MC-Escherichia	so now I tell my colleagues clone my version of lein idefiles, lein install, and then we're good
15:11	gfredericks	arrdem: plz make a jira ticket
15:13	arrdem	gfredericks: naw man lets just hard fork clojure it'll be great
15:13	PigDude	thanks stuartsierra
15:14	amalloy	next april fools day joke: everyone in #clojure opens a new jira ticket asking for java.util.regex.Pattern to be IFn
15:14	stuartsierra	Oh please no.
15:14	trptcolin	put them in https://github.com/clojure/clojure/pulls
15:14	arrdem	stuartsierra: it's on the official todo list :P
15:15	trptcolin	;)
15:15	stuartsierra	Do you have any idea how hard it is to search JIRA?
15:15	nobodyzzz	IFn all the things!!1
15:15	ivan	a few days ago I was tempted to fork Clojure for literal strings / pretty-printed byte arrays / \xNN in strings
15:16	stuartsierra	You could get pretty-printed byte arrays by overridding print-method, I think.
15:16	amalloy	ivan: that has got to be the second-worst reason for forking clojure i've ever heard of
15:16	PigDude	ivan: pp byte arrays would be nice
15:16	puredanger	stuartsierra: I just committed all of them to memory
15:16	ivan	stuartsierra: yeah, but what would you print them as? (.getBytes "awful string with \u escapes")?
15:17	amalloy	ivan: hex, of course. not strings
15:17	stuartsierra	ivan: I dunno, you're the one who wanted it. :)
15:17	ivan	amalloy: well, that would be spectacularly useless for humans
15:17	ivan	working at the REPL
15:17	PigDude	erlang does a good job w/ <<>>
15:17	stuartsierra	,(seq (byte-array [1 2 3 4]))
15:17	PigDude	(soemtimes)
15:17	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4)
15:18	amalloy	uhhhh. i'm now convinced your idea is even worse, if you wanted to print as anything but hex, or possibly as a sequence of numbers from -128 to 127
15:18	PigDude	and sometimes it just spits numbers at you
15:18	amalloy	attempting to interpret byte[] as a string as the default behavior is awful
15:19	PigDude	it was a big problem w/ large binary data in erlang logs but i think lager fix this
15:19	stuartsierra	,(apply str (map #(format "%z" %) (.getBytes "hello")))
15:19	clojurebot	#<UnknownFormatConversionException java.util.UnknownFormatConversionException: Conversion = 'z'>
15:19	stuartsierra	(apply str (map irc://chat.freenode.net:6667/#(format "%x" %) (.getBytes "hello")))
15:19	stuartsierra	dammit!
15:20	amalloy	stuartsierra: i think that would print poorly for characters needing more than 7 bits
15:20	trptcolin	CLJ-1454: symbols starting with an HTTP protocol should implement IFn
15:21	trptcolin	dammit i ruined that one s/HTTP/some-kind-of/
15:21	trptcolin	oh also that 1454 is a real ticket
15:23	amalloy	oh, interesting. i assumed %x would upcast to integer, but i guess it doesn't. that's what i get for assuming java is c
15:26	stuartsierra	,(clojure.string/join " " (map #(format "%x" %) (.getBytes "hello\uffff")))
15:26	clojurebot	"68 65 6c 6c 6f ef bf bf"
15:27	stuartsierra	Welcome to UTF-16.
15:27	arrdem	UTF-23 only please
15:28	gfredericks	23 bits ought to be enough for anyone.
15:29	arrdem	16 + 5 for tag + 2 for GC amirite?
15:29	andyf	Perl is pretty interesting with its strings - you can treat then as if they are arrays of Unicode chars, 1 index per Unicode char, but they store them as UTF8 to save memory (I think)
15:29	gfredericks	if your string encoding doesn't contain GC flags you're doing it wrong
15:30	andyf	Must make some of their implementation code interesting
15:34	TimMc	ztellman: Basic iterator testing: https://github.com/timmc/collection-check/compare/iterators?expand=1 -- already found a bug. :-P
15:34	TimMc	I can't get it to do an informative fail for some reason, though.
15:34	tbaldridge	andyf: there was something I was reading the other day that showed that scanning a UTF-8 string on modern processors is actually very fast
15:35	gfredericks	"look I hit enter and it was done immediately"
15:38	tbaldridge	here we go, strlen utf8 optimization http://www.daemonology.net/blog/2008-06-05-faster-utf8-strlen.html
15:41	arrdem	nice!
15:43	augustl	sorta off topic.. Any graph processing libraries and/or databases around? Only one I know about is neo4j, but I don't need disk durability, in memory processing is enough
15:43	augustl	and I don't mind interop ;)
15:43	arrdem	augustl: loom is pretty good.. there are some others
15:43	augustl	arrdem: looking it up, tnx :)
15:44	augustl	arrdem: hmm, got a link? I get all sorts of hits on google
15:45	arrdem	https://github.com/aysylu/loom
15:46	arrdem	it's the "obvious" DG implementation using Clojure maps that you'd build if you just sat down and started hacking. more than fast enough for everything I've thrown it at, some of which was pretty big.
15:46	puredanger	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEEutxTYQQU
15:54	mthvedt	what’s the difference between coll-reduce and internal-reduce
15:55	augustl	arrdem: I need some very specific graph, uhm, "thingies" :)
15:56	augustl	such as finding everything that moves the same direction in a group of paths within the next 30 minutes, and what not
15:57	magopian	when doing some web development, if you need a database (say postgres, h2, ...), I see that you can use Korma, but how do you create the schemas? I mean, create the tables and all?
15:58	magopian	should you resort to using clojure.java.jdbc as I saw in the luminus example?
15:58	augustl	magopian: for schemas I've used liquibase for a long time, for clojure apps as well
15:58	augustl	I don't mind the xml, it's just pointy lisp after all
15:59	augustl	arrdem: tnx for the link btw :)
16:00	bbloom	augustl: with a weird attribute/element dichotomy and all sorts of strange rules about text nodes, but yeah, juuuust a pointy lisp :-/
16:00	augustl	difficult to google for graph processing libs, most of the results are about drawing graphs, not querying them :)
16:00	magopian	augustl: ok, i see
16:00	bbloom	such that you may trip and impale yourself
16:01	MC-Escherichia	magopian there's a library called lobos that I used once to write a simple SQL schema
16:02	magopian	MC-Escherichia: thanks, i'll read on that too
16:02	augustl	I should probably just suck it up and use neo4j
16:06	insamniac	Any of you nerds going to DEF CON?
16:07	arrdem	did last year, 5/5 would recommend but not going this year
16:07	kristian-	augustl: http://titanium.clojurewerkz.org
16:07	insamniac	arrdem: Did you stay at the Rio or wherever it was hosted last year?
16:08	arrdem	insamniac: rio or go home
16:08	insamniac	there is no room at the inn
16:08	xk05	aint that just the way? soon as i decide my rdf application wants to be in org i come across serious discussion and code examples for clojure
16:09	puredanger	mthvedt: their protocols are defined https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core/protocols.clj#L13 but I believe internal-reduce is not used anymore
16:10	cljbeginner	Hey, I'm having trouble getting the quoting/unquoting of a macro right. I've tried to reduce it to the simplest possible case
16:10	xk05	if Fredric Giasson lurks here, Thanks for the article, very instructive
16:10	cljbeginner	The form would be (test = (person "name") "bob"), where this macro returns a function that takes one argument
16:11	cljbeginner	I want person to have the value of this argument
16:11	augustl	kristian-: :D tnx
16:13	cljbeginner	I tried something like this http://pastebin.com/nUK4NeM5 but obviously item gets namespace qualified
16:15	augustl	cljbeginner: so you want to rewrite (test = (person "name") "bob") to (= (person "name") "bob")?
16:16	augustl	if you want op and body as separate args, you have to make sure body (which is basically args to op?) is treated as such
16:16	augustl	cljbeginner: for example, `(apply ~test ~@body)
16:16	cljbeginner	@augustl: I removed a bunch of other stuff happening there, but i want to rewrite (test = (person "name") "bob") to (fn [person] (= (person "name") "bob"))
16:17	augustl	cljbeginner: so tat means the 2nd argument to test has to be a list, and the first item in that list should be what's passed into the fn?
16:17	cljbeginner	@augustl: so that person is actually the arguments passed to the function, and I could say ((test = (person "name") bob) (hash-map "name" "bob"))
16:17	augustl	this sounds like a job for #(= (% "name") "bob") to me :)
16:18	augustl	unless you want to do it for the exercise of writing a macro ofc
16:18	cljbeginner	@augustl: it is a little bit of an exercise, yeah - I want to use the syntax (person "name) to describe the attribute I'm accessing, but person isn't defined yet
16:19	cljbeginner	@augustl: I agree that your solution makes sense :) I'm trying to go through an exercise of creating a DSL
16:19	augustl	the problem is the magic value "person" imo
16:19	augustl	the macro would either have to be very specific about its args, or hardcode 'person'
16:19	augustl	that's why the #() macro uses %
16:20	augustl	writing a macro for ((test = (% "name") "bob") {"name" "bob"}) probably makes more sense
16:20	hiredman	tbaldridge: "while giving a wonderful example of using a goto to jump from the middle of one loop into the middle of another:" lol
16:21	tbaldridge	?
16:21	hiredman	tbaldridge: from the utf8 link
16:21	augustl	cljbeginner: or create a binding with something like (test [person] = (person "name") "bob")
16:21	tbaldridge	lol yeah
16:21	ucb	so apparently you can conj onto a map and get a map back: https://gist.github.com/ulises/ffb0895335ab04af1a1a
16:21	augustl	cljbeginner: but then you're dangerously close to (#(= (% "name") "bob") {"name" "bob"}) ofc :)
16:22	cljbeginner	@augustl: correct
16:23	Frozenlock	ucb: It acts like 'merge'?
16:23	ucb	Frozenlock: apparently so
16:24	ucb	though I suspect there are differences I have not explored yet
16:24	Frozenlock	ucb: Yeah, I was suspecting the same, but I made some tests in my repl and they seem identical.
16:24	Frozenlock	Which brings the question 'whyyyyyy?'
16:25	puredanger	conj = "add an element to a collection in whatever way is natural for the collection"
16:25	puredanger	with maps, an "element" is a key-value pair
16:25	Frozenlock	puredanger: I understand that, but why do we have merge then?
16:26	hiredman	,(conj {} {:a 1})
16:26	puredanger	merge is map-specific so handles a nil coll better
16:26	clojurebot	{:a 1}
16:27	puredanger	,(merge nil {:a 1})
16:27	clojurebot	{:a 1}
16:27	puredanger	,(conj nil {:a 1})
16:27	clojurebot	({:a 1})
16:28	Frozenlock	Ah nil, always ruining my day.
16:30	puredanger	might be a perf difference too. merge uses reduce which may be faster than the loop/recur in conj. but I would not wager on that without a test.
16:31	augustl	,(conj {} [:a 1])
16:31	clojurebot	{:a 1}
16:31	augustl	oh hey
16:32	Frozenlock	,(merge {} [:a 1])
16:32	augustl	convenient in some cases :)
16:32	clojurebot	{:a 1}
16:32	augustl	ah, well there you go
16:35	gfredericks	,(merge nil [:a 1])
16:35	clojurebot	{:a 1}
16:36	gfredericks	,(merge [:a 1] nil)
16:36	clojurebot	[:a 1 nil]
16:36	gill_	arrdem: loom has an a* test, that's a cool library. maybe I can use that for AI pathfinding in a game :)
16:47	TimMc	reiddraper: simple-check is sneaky and mean. Thanks!
16:48	reiddraper	TimMc: ha, i might co-opt that tagline!
16:52	bars0	Hi all. I try to make use of lein-exec plugin on windows 7 but I encounter something strange. I have lein-exec plugin entry in my ~/.lein/profiles.clj. When I fire up command prompt and type `lein` I see `exec` entry. But when I change direcotry and repeat lein command, `exec` entry is missing. What is going on?
16:53	TEttinger	where were you running lein before, when you could see it?
16:53	bars0	TEttinger: My HOME directory
16:53	technomancy	bars0: what are you using lein-exec for?
16:54	TEttinger	is there a project.clj there?
16:54	amalloy	TimMc: :.hasNext? are you a monster?
16:54	technomancy	it's mostly-redundant afaik
16:54	bars0	TEttinger: no
16:54	bars0	technomancy: actually I wanted just try it :)
16:55	technomancy	bars0: you should be able to just use lein run
16:58	gfredericks	TimMc: it's mean?
16:58	technomancy	does it make fun of you when you make mistakes?
16:58	technomancy	like that sudo hack where you can get it to call you names if you get the wrong password?
16:58	gfredericks	TimMc: also simple-check is old hat; all the cool kids have moved on to test.check, which has better beer
16:59	technomancy	gfredericks: whatever, test.check is too mainstream
16:59	bob2	or slay killing all your processes if you forget to run it as root
16:59	nullptr	pfft, i used quickcheck before it was cool
17:00	gfredericks	technomancy: it has its own package manager and a super active community and three different syntax highlighting plugins for light-table
17:00	bars0	TEttinger: yes, you were right I double check directory where I wanted run clj file and I found project.clj in there... Sorry, I'm a dummy and I am learning the tooling.
17:01	amalloy	also, TimMc, you should typehint this stuff to avoid reflection. not because of performance, but because of privacy and accessibility. for example, this should throw an IllegalAccessError if you try to test (.iterator (.entrySet (java.util.HashMap. {1 2})))
17:02	TimMc	amalloy: Just following orders^Wexisting code conventions.
17:03	amalloy	TimMc: huh?
17:03	TimMc	re: :.hasNext
17:03	amalloy	what existing convention is that?
17:04	TimMc	Stuff elsewhere in collection-check. :conj! and the like.
17:04	amalloy	there's no :. anywhere. i'd expect :hasNext
17:05	TimMc	shrug It's a keyword version of the symbol normally found at the head.
17:05	TimMc	I think there are way bigger things to complain about in that code. :-P
17:06	amalloy	well, i did! reflection
17:07	TimMc	Yeah, can you expand on that a bit?
17:08	amalloy	TimMc: you can't use reflection to work with non-public classes, even to call their public methods
17:09	TimMc	Ah, OK.
17:09	amalloy	(.iterator (.entrySet (java.util.HashMap. {1 2}))) returns a java.util.HashMap$EntryIterator, which is a private class
17:09	amalloy	so you have to hint it as ^Iterator in order to call things on it, via its public interface
17:09	TimMc	,(.next (.iterator (.entrySet (java.util.HashMap. {1 2}))))
17:09	clojurebot	#<Entry 1=2>
17:09	TimMc	,(.next (identity (.iterator (.entrySet (java.util.HashMap. {1 2})))))
17:09	clojurebot	#<Entry 1=2>
17:09	amalloy	hm
17:10	amalloy	afaik that shouldn't work. i wonder why it does
17:10	zanes	https://github.com/halgari/clojure-conj-2013-core.async-examples/blob/master/src/clojure_conj_talk/core.clj#L361...L368
17:10	zanes	Is doall necessary there?
17:11	hiredman	amalloy: I think it is if the class the method comes from isn't public or something
17:12	hiredman	zanes: it is complicated, but basically yes, if you want the http-gets to be run in parallel
17:12	zanes	Can you help me understand why?
17:13	hiredman	zanes: for is lazy, so the result is computed as needed, in this case the result happens to kick off some other computations
17:13	hiredman	if you don't force it all, you end up forcing one at a time
17:13	zanes	I guess I kind of assumed merge had an implicit doall, but that doesn’t make sense.
17:14	tbaldridge	zanes: merge may force it, it may not I don't know, I just found it easier to put the doall in there and not worry about it
17:14	zanes	Cool.
17:15	tbaldridge	zanes: more correctly merge uses alts! and that would most likely force it. But I would hate for this code to break if the definition of merge changes
17:15	zanes	Right on. Better to be explicit!
17:15	hiredman	and technically, I think range produces a chunked seq, and for respects chunking, so you'll 32 at a time instead of one at a time, but it is best to try and pretend that train wreck doesn't exist
17:16	tbaldridge	(inc hiredman)
17:16	lazybot	⇒ 50
17:16	gfredericks	clojurebot: chunked seqs \|are\| sunked cheeks
17:16	clojurebot	Ok.
17:19	amalloy	hiredman: right, but java.util.HashMap$EntryIterator is indeed private
17:20	hiredman	amalloy: but the iterator method is declared in some public class/interface no?
17:21	hiredman	we could be talking about different things
17:21	amalloy	we might be. i'm thinking that what TimMc is doing should be roughly equivalent to http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5184284/illegalaccessexception-on-using-reflection, and not work
17:22	hiredman	something like http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1243
17:23	hiredman	oh, you are talking about reflection in general then, not clojure's reflector
17:23	amalloy	so for example, https://www.refheap.com/6a4cdda1e4b3c5a927bb89d60 doesn't work, and i don't know what clojure's reflector does that seems to get around that
17:23	puredanger	hiredman: stuartsierra loves that ticket
17:24	hiredman	puredanger: like, he has a shrine too it in his locker and the cognocave?
17:24	puredanger	hiredman: exactly
17:25	hiredman	it is an odd one
17:25	amalloy	i guess it has a special case to avoid this issue. it checks to see if you're falling into exactly this case, and then looks around for public interfaces or superclasses it can use instead
17:25	puredanger	but the summary is that Java doesn't even tell you useful stuff in this case because generic bridge methods are blech
17:26	hiredman	:/
17:27	puredanger	generic bridge methods are the bucket under the leaking abstraction of generics
17:28	tbaldridge	generics, the one thing that .NET does so much better.
17:29	bob2	because it doesn't erase?
17:30	tbaldridge	bob2: yeah
17:31	Frozenlock	Is there an official way to take a spot in the :session ring request?
17:31	Frozenlock	:my-lib-name ?
17:31	puredanger	Frozenlock: namespaced keyword?
17:31	tbaldridge	Frozenlock: perhaps even consider namespaced keywords
17:31	tbaldridge	,::foo
17:31	clojurebot	:sandbox/foo
17:31	amalloy	Frozenlock: assert your dominance by removing everything else in the :session
17:32	martinklepsch	are there any graph databases that are easy to understand coming from a sql/nosql background that are also great to use from clojure?
17:32	tbaldridge	amalloy: bad idea, instead replace it with randomly generated data
17:32	Frozenlock	puredanger, tbaldridge : Sounds perfect, thanks!
17:32	Frozenlock	amalloy: Right? As an alpha male, I should just (assoc :session my-stuff) every time!
17:35	zanes	I don’t suppose there’s a core.async-based interface to java.jdbc?
17:35	tbaldridge	java.jdbc isn't async is it?
17:36	puredanger	no
17:36	puredanger	except for the kind of weird case of reading blobs and clobs, stuff like that
17:37	nobodyzzz	Should I know "Java stack" well to be a good clojure programmer?
17:38	brehaut	nobodyzzz: initally you dont need to, but in the long term, learning some portions of it will be useful (IO, concurrency lib)
17:38	puredanger	nobodyzzz: it is useful to know certain parts of the standard library (java.lang, java.util, java.io) and to have a general understanding of things like the classpath
17:38	zanes	tbaldridge: I suppose not? I’m trying to understand how exactly :result-set-fm works.
17:39	Jaood	nobodyzzz: to be practical I would say yes, this tutorial has all you need: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/index.html
17:41	nobodyzzz	ugh, there are a lot of tutorial =)
17:41	nobodyzzz	*tutorials
17:41	Jaood	nobodyzzz: you don't need most of it
17:42	arrdem	nobodyzzz: you can write working clojure without knowing Java, but much of Clojure's value comes from being able to interact nicely with Java
17:42	nobodyzzz	so I guess I should get a copy of "The Java Tutorial" and try to force myself read it?
17:42	Jaood	nobodyzzz: read learing the language, the essentials clases and collections part
17:43	hiredman	I doubt it covers the useful bits
17:44	hiredman	this is a java language variable, this is how you declare it, this is how you set it, this is how you set it again, here is an array, etc etc etc
17:44	technomancy	nobodyzzz: know where to look when you need to; don't start with java material
17:44	puredanger	nobodyzzz: just go do Clojure. If you run into a Java question, come back here. :)
17:44	amalloy	i wonder how well it would work to start out by assuming that java is exactly like python (or c#, or whatever language you happen to already know), and then just filling in the gaps in that "knowledge" as they come up
17:45	amalloy	then you only end up learning things that matter to you as a clojure programmer
17:45	Jaood	amalloy: java is easy to learn if you know oop and some Cish syntax
17:46	amalloy	okay, but the point is, why would you? you don't need to know anything about java; you need to know about the jvm and the classes included in the jre
17:46	nobodyzzz	yeah java is easy but toooo verbose. imo
17:46	technomancy	amalloy: it's just like you're in a new house and the silverware is in a different drawer
17:46	hiredman	watch as I use generics to remove the need to insert casts everywhere!
17:47	puredanger	technomancy: and you're wearing giant foam hands
17:47	hiredman	gawk in wonder as I capture a (final) variable in an inner class
17:47	technomancy	puredanger: hah, that's if you're writing java; I meant just the jdk IO classes
17:47	amalloy	(inc hiredman)
17:47	lazybot	⇒ 51
17:48	puredanger	technomancy: ah, yes :) actually now it seems like what I want is split between .io and .nio is fairly arbitrary ways
17:48	puredanger	I assume .nnio is up next
17:49	technomancy	n2io, n3io, etc
17:49	Jaood	amalloy: sure, he doesn't need how to "write" Java but instead how to read it well
17:49	hiredman	mio
17:49	TimMc	reiddraper: Ever seen generative testing of HTTP APIs?
17:49	puredanger	TimMc: I've done that for testing a clojure lib wrapping an access lib
17:49	reiddraper	TimMc: yep!
17:49	Jaood	nobodyzzz: don't write any java just learn how to read it
17:50	reiddraper	TimMc: not sure it's anything public, but quite a few folks i know have done it
17:50	hiredman	gaze captivated in to your teletype as I iterate over the contents of an array and am unable to iterate past the bounds of the array!
17:50	TimMc	Hmm. Well, if we end up doing it, I'll make sure to try real hard to make it open-sourceable!
17:51	TimMc	puredanger: Anything public?
17:51	brehaut	amalloy: knowing how java does overload mangling to jvm methods is probably useful for clojure programmers too
17:51	puredanger	TimMc: nope, sorry.
17:52	TimMc	I'm thinking of making our server accept pathod specs as headers so we can mock out backend/gateway calls to other servers fron the front end.
17:52	amalloy	brehaut: sure. obviously you need to know some things. i was just proposing that it would be interesting to start from "java is exactly like [language x]" and refine that understanding gradually as flaws appear, rather than starting from "i know nothing about java" and having to learn everything whether or not it's relevant
17:52	hiredman	try and contain your gasps of disbelief as I continue to use memory without bothering to free it once I am finished with it!
17:52	TimMc	I'd like to be able to write invariants against the entire request + backend responses vs. response.
17:54	technomancy	hiredman: http://wifflegif.com/gifs/4326-the-hunchback-of-notre-dame-gif
17:54	hiredman	technomancy: perfect
17:56	martinklepsch	does "embedded Datomic Datalog" in Datomic free mean it's persistent?
17:57	hiredman	martinklepsch: I think they mean you can use the datalog to reason over in memory values
17:57	hiredman	martinklepsch: but persistence requires a transactor, which you don't have when "embedded"
17:57	martinklepsch	hiredman, so datomic free is memory only?
17:58	hiredman	martinklepsch: I don't think so
17:58	puredanger	martinklepsch: no, it is not memory only
17:58	hiredman	martinklepsch: I am pretty sure datomic free lets you run a transactor
17:58	martinklepsch	I'm confusing things, sorry
18:00	puredanger	martinklepsch: in all of the Datomic editions, queries run in the "peer" (not the "transactor"). The peer is in your app, thus the datalog is "embedded" in your process.
18:01	puredanger	queries always run in memory of your app
18:01	martinklepsch	basically I have a set of 4 mio records and I'm wondering if Datomic Free would allow me to manage/store that but I find it a bit hard to distinguish the editions
18:02	puredanger	what's a mil record?
18:02	Frozenbot	Is Datomic FOSS yet?
18:02	martinklepsch	puredanger, 4.000.000
18:03	technomancy	too many editions, huh http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/02/02/
18:03	amalloy	we know that was you, Frozenlock. switching to Frozenbot to ask your question was a clever ploy, but we all saw through it
18:04	Frozenlock	gasp, my evil ploy was discovered
18:04	Jaood	amalloy: how did you know? ;)
18:04	technomancy	not me, I have nick changes off
18:04	hyPiRion	me too.
18:04	amalloy	technomancy: you'd have to turn off your whole brain to not guess who Frozenbot is
18:05	technomancy	sorry what?
18:07	puredanger	martinklepsch: Free uses a lightweight db (H2) colocated in the transactor process. if you are storing serious data, you'll probably instead want to use Datomic Pro Starter (also no cost) which will let you use an external storage like Postgres, DynamoDB, Riak, etc
18:08	martinklepsch	puredanger, what means serious? could it lose data or are you refering to a lot of content
18:08	puredanger	just size
18:10	martinklepsch	puredanger, is that somehow quantifiable? what is the bottleneck
18:10	puredanger	for most uses, Datomic Pro Starter is a better choice than Free. there is a #datomic room btw if that makes more sense :)
18:11	Frozenlock	I'll just leave this here... "The freenode IRC network has some very specific goals and objectives, and it’s intended primarily for developers of free and open source software." :-p
18:11	TimMc	haha
18:12	TimMc	We've got them now; they'll have to change the license to keep the channel!
18:12	puredanger	martinklepsch: Free uses an embedded lightweight database. With Pro Starter you can use Oracle, Postgres, Riak, etc for storage
18:12	zanes	Am I really barking up the wrong tree here?
18:12	zanes	https://gist.github.com/zane/304863e3f9157a4236ca
18:13	Frozenlock	TimMc: That, and Clojars!
18:14	amalloy	zanes: yes
18:14	amalloy	you can only use <! and >! in the go scope; lambdas are separate functions
18:14	martinklepsch	puredanger, I understood that but I wonder what the consequences of that "lightweight database" are. Datomic Free seems easier to deploy right now (because I just drop it into my clojure app) so I'd like to understand if it might be enough for the stuff I'm doing
18:15	Jaood	martinklepsch: you should consult the docs of the DB storage in question then
18:15	Jaood	not datomic
18:15	amalloy	it's not really clear what you're trying to do, but core.async with result-set-fn is gonna be hard to get working together
18:16	zanes	amalloy: So, even though it’s the same lexical scope it’s not going to work?
18:16	amalloy	right. go can't look inside lambdas
18:16	amalloy	it's not all lexical
18:16	zanes	amalloy: I’m trying to feed the results of the query into a channel, and have the result set realized as the channel is consumed from.
18:16	TimMc	ztellman, reiddraper: I think I'm just going to write a general-purpose behavioral equivalence testing lib based on test.check.
18:17	martinklepsch	Jaood, right but what's the storage in the Free edition from that list? http://docs.datomic.com/storage.html
18:19	Jaood	martinklepsch: whatever it is that comes bundle in the jdk, I think is derby
18:20	TimMc	The extra features I need: 1) Massage return values to match (e.g. compare sorted values, not ordered seqs -- or ignore differences based on which exception was thrown)
18:20	TimMc	2) Compare things that don't actually behave the same way (e.g. mutable vs. persistent) by giving corresponding versions of operators.
18:20	reiddraper	TimMc: neat
18:21	martinklepsch	Jaood,I'll take this to #datomic
18:21	amalloy	i don't think there's any way you can make that work, zanes, or at least not any that will make you happy
18:21	Jaood	martinklepsch: I'm not sure but I don't think openjdk has a DB include, you need the one from oracle
18:21	TimMc	3) Maybe even try to automatically generate lists of operations based on reflection... :-D
18:22	TimMc	[fin]
18:22	zanes	amalloy: What’s the issue exactly?
18:22	zanes	amalloy: The next thing I tried was using core.async.lab/spool as the :result-set-fm.
18:22	zanes	I feel like there’s a gap in my understanding.
18:23	martinklepsch	Jaood: I find it somewhat frustrating that it's so hard to figure out what's the storage when using Datomic Free, shouldn't that be very clearly documented somewhere?
18:23	zanes	Is the connection is closed as soon as result-set-fn returns?
18:23	amalloy	zanes: yes, that's the whole idea of result-set-fn
18:23	zanes	Got it.
18:25	amalloy	database clients hate to keep server connections open any longer than necessary. if you really want to keep the result-set open indefinitely, there are probably things you could do
18:25	amalloy	for example, like (fn [rows] (<!! (go (doseq [r rows] (>! c r)))))
18:26	amalloy	but that is probably super-fragile, like if something goes wrong you leak a database connection forever
18:30	amalloy	also, as usual i have never written any core.async code so it may just be totally broken
18:34	Jaood	martinklepsch: probably, I guess its obvious for java programmers
18:52	tjd_	is there a more concise way to say: (if (= 1 (count x)) (first x) x) ? [x is always a vector or seq]
18:54	amalloy	tjd_: i hope x is never (range)
18:55	tjd_	amalloy: hah. x is a vector from an upstream api. fully realized seq.
18:55	amalloy	(that is, you should be really careful with counting unknown sequences)
18:56	amalloy	anyway, there's no particularly nice way to write that. treating one-element vectors the same as non-vectors is kinda tacky, so it's not made super-easy
19:02	scape_	tjd_: maybe this:
19:02	scape_	,(let [x (range 5)] (if (rest x) x (first x)))
19:02	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4)
19:02	amalloy	scape_: (rest x) never returns falsey ever. you mean (next x)
19:03	scape_	,(let [x (range 1)] (if (rest x) x (first x)))
19:03	clojurebot	(0)
19:03	scape_	yes
19:03	scape_	true
19:03	scape_	:D
19:03	amalloy	you also don't handle empty collections
19:03	scape_	he didn't specify that
19:03	scape_	always a realized seq
19:03	amalloy	he compared (count x) with 1. 0 is not 1
19:04	amalloy	and [] is an empty collection, with count 0
19:05	tjd_	im going to hell for this: (reduce (comp flatten vector) x)
19:06	tjd_	,(let [x (range 1)] (reduce (comp flatten vector) x))
19:06	clojurebot	0
19:06	tjd_	,(let [x (range 5)] (reduce (comp flatten vector) x))
19:06	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4)
19:07	tjd_	but amalloy is right. i talked myself out of doing this in the first place.
19:07	amalloy	tjd_: that's cute, although quite wrong if x contains any collections inside it
19:07	amalloy	~flatten
19:07	clojurebot	flatten is rarely the right answer. Suppose you need to use a list as your "base type", for example. Usually you only want to flatten a single level, and in that case you're better off with concat. Or, better still, use mapcat to produce a sequence that's shaped right to begin with.
19:08	amalloy	still, a novel approach i would not have thought of, on account of it being evil
19:09	scape_	lol
19:09	tjd_	some men just want to watch the world burn
19:09	Frozenlock	(flatten the-world)
19:09	scape_	i found concat over flatten to be ideal
19:09	tjd_	i'll take that as a compliment, though.
19:10	amalloy	(reduce (comp (partial apply concat) list) x) probably works as well, without the issue of nested collections
19:10	amalloy	&(for [x '(() (1) (1 2 3))] (reduce (comp (partial apply concat) list) x))
19:10	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long
19:10	amalloy	welp, guess not. whatever
19:11	tjd_	this problem is no longer just a snack, it's a meal
19:12	scape_	tjd_: just curious why do you want the one element itself if it's only length of 1 but seq otherwise?
19:14	tjd_	i'm querying an upstream product attribute database, it returns data like <property> <name>Title</name> <value>Apple iPad</value> </property>, but also multi-valued attributes in a terrible way like <property> <name>Networking Type</name> <value>WiFi</value> <value>Bluetooth</value> </property>
19:14	tjd_	it doesn't distinguish well between single and multi-valued attributes
19:14	numberten	is there a core function for this? (fn [f g] (fn [x y] (f (g x y) y))) ?
19:14	scape_	oh okay
19:14	tjd_	scape_: ebay internal ickyness :{
19:15	amalloy	tjd_: but the solution to that is to just always work with a seq
19:15	tjd_	amalloy: well, sort of. i want to present this data in a nicer format to an API caller. so i'd like to give them JSON like {"title": "Apple iPad"} not {"title": ["Apple iPad"]}
19:16	tjd_	of course there is no schema provided for this mess, so i'm stuck guessing what's multi-valued
19:16	scape_	I would try and work with values being in a seq, even if it's just one. if possible some how
19:17	TEttinger	&(for [x '(() (1) (1 2 3))] (reduce (partial apply concat) [x]))
19:17	lazybot	⇒ (() (1) (1 2 3))
19:17	amalloy	numberten: no
19:17	TEttinger	hm
19:17	tjd_	scape_: if you were an API consumer, would you prefer to consume seqs, like my example above?
19:17	scape_	since I work in clojure, yes :D
19:17	amalloy	i would much rather receive something that's always a seq than something that might be a seq
19:18	amalloy	if it might be a seq, i have to write the opposite of this stupid (= (count x) 1) function just to deal with it
19:18	Frozenlock	amalloy: But isn't he always only taking the first element?
19:18	tjd_	Frozenlock: only if it's a single-value seq
19:19	Frozenlock	ugh
19:19	tjd_	yeah.
19:19	scape_	hah
19:19	tjd_	and there's the chance that upstream will mess with me and start sending stuff like [["iPad"]]
19:19	tjd_	in which case i'll quit and go live in a trailer in the woods
19:20	amalloy	tjd_: ebay is providing you with a perfectly nice api, which is just a map of tagged sequences. don't make it gross by guessing at which things are really not sequences
19:20	tjd_	alright, i'll keep to seqs. consistency, i suppose.
19:20	amalloy	not unless you have a dtd or xsd or something promising it'll never have multiple instances of the same tag
19:21	tjd_	nope, no dtd
19:21	tjd_	back-of-the-napkin dtd
19:48	ztellman	TimMc: I've thought about doing that for a while
19:49	ztellman	(he replied an eternity later)
19:49	ztellman	I'm interested to see what you come up with
19:54	twiceaday	would someone explain me if this
19:54	twiceaday	(= __ (filter #(> % 5) '(3 4 5 6 7)))
19:54	twiceaday	answer to this
19:54	twiceaday	'(6 7)
19:55	twiceaday	contains
19:55	twiceaday	' <- this character just so it isn't executed as function (or code) ?
19:55	amalloy	well, "just", but yes
19:58	doritostains	lein ring uberjar seems to be including ring/ring-devel from the dev profile. When I remove it everything works fine. Otherwise it tries to use ns_tracker, which fails somehow, as it’s not including tools.namespace which is also in the dev profile. Anyone have this problem before?
20:15	twiceaday	amalloy: is there any other reason for that ? '() ?
20:16	scape_	,(type '())
20:16	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList$EmptyList
20:16	scape_	,(type '(1))
20:16	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList
20:26	ssutch	hello!
20:27	ssutch	i have a pretty basic clojurescript/om question if anyone could help with that
20:28	Frozenlock	,anyone
20:28	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: anyone in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
20:29	Frozenlock	#anyone
20:29	Frozenlock	cmon bots
20:29	Frozenlock	ssutch: Just ask your question
20:29	amalloy	~anyone
20:29	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
20:30	amalloy	~ask
20:30	scape_	fancy
20:30	clojurebot	The Ask To Ask protocol wastes more bandwidth than any version of the Ask protocol, so just ask your question.
20:30	amalloy	(depending on your personal taste)
20:30	ssutch	i may have gotten it (investigating cursors)
20:30	brehaut	amalloy: depends if you are in #tcp or not i guess
20:30	ssutch	essentially i have to switch on some binary state in the global map
20:31	ssutch	and update the UI based on that (ie user logged in or out?)
20:31	amalloy	brehaut: i thought of a tcp counter-joke this morning
20:31	amalloy	for use when someone tells you one of those terrible tcp jokes
20:31	brehaut	amalloy: i cannot garuntee i will get it, but send it anyway
20:32	amalloy	after the punchline, you stare blankly at them for a moment, and then say "ACK 0"
20:32	scape_	heh
20:32	brehaut	haha great
20:35	amalloy	it's harder to pronounce "FIN ACK", but you can try that too
20:40	eraserhd	If I have evidence that filter-indexed is something I actually use, would I reopen http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-670 for consideration or start a new ticket?
20:41	joegallo	hope springs eternal
20:41	ssutch	solved my problem by not overthinking it, thanks folks.
20:46	amalloy	eraserhd: i would not expect anything productive to happen from reopening that ticket or from opening another one which is a duplicate of it
20:47	eraserhd	No?
20:49	amalloy	it was turned down 3 1/2 years ago, and everyone has seemed to do fine without it, so it's probably neither exciting to rich nor critical. and clojure 1.6 seems to include a focus on functions that treat only nil as falsey, eg some?, if-some, and so on
20:50	amalloy	especially given that you can implement it yourself in like two lines, i don't know why it would be in core. plus, there's the problem that rich brought up: filter returns the original input item, not the result of (f x). what is the "original item", when f is called like (f 10 x)? if that returns true, what goes into the sequence? true? x? 10? [10 x]?
20:53	verma	I am trying to reify an interface defined inside a class in Java, com.firebase.client.Transaction.Handler, not sure how to specify that in clojure com.firebase.client.Transaction.Handler says ClassNotFound,
20:54	eraserhd	Hrmm
20:55	eraserhd	It's strange, though. I've never found a safe place to use keep-*, does anyone use them?
20:55	brehaut	,(apropos 'keep)
20:55	clojurebot	(keep-indexed keep)
20:55	brehaut	amalloy, eraserhd: sounds like a job for keep-indexed?
20:56	brehaut	[bloody lag]
20:56	amalloy	brehaut: he's claiming that keep-indexed is no good for him and he wants filter-indexed
20:56	brehaut	amalloy: suspicious
20:58	eraserhd	The semantics of keep seem hard for me to deal with. It maps and filters, but won't work with predicates.
20:58	eraserhd	I'm curious why they are there, which is why I was asking whether anyone uses them.
20:59	amalloy	eraserhd: a quick grep suggests i've used keep in three projects
20:59	amalloy	that's just the ones that i've cloned onto my most recent work desktop, though
20:59	brehaut	ive used keep a bunch althoguh i dont have anything handy to grep
21:00	amalloy	for a more obvious example, it's used in clojurescript, to look up protocol implementations
21:00	eraserhd	I just realized keep is kind of like mapcat for onesies. That helps.
21:00	amalloy	(keep fast-path-protocols (something)), where fast-path-protocols returns the fast path protocols for some object, if any exists, and we're just looking for any such fast-path
21:02	eraserhd	So what would be the idiomatic way to say, take the odd elements of a lazy sequence in a ->>?
21:02	amalloy	(->> xs (take-nth 2))
21:02	amalloy	and a (rest), depending on what you mean by "odd"
21:03	eraserhd	Wow, did not understand what take-nth did.
21:04	TEttinger	(doc take-nth)
21:04	clojurebot	"([n coll]); Returns a lazy seq of every nth item in coll."
21:04	eraserhd	Yeah, just saw.
21:04	TEttinger	huh, how would you offset it
21:04	TEttinger	(->> (rest xs) (take-nth 2))
21:04	TEttinger	I guess
21:04	scape_	,(->> (range 6)(partition 2)(map #(second %)))
21:04	clojurebot	(1 3 5)
21:05	Frozenlock	Am I missing something here? Why not just use `odd?'?
21:05	Frozenlock	,(->> (range 10) (filter odd?))
21:05	clojurebot	(1 3 5 7 9)
21:05	TEttinger	(->> (rest (range 10)) (take-nth 2))
21:05	TEttinger	the reason is for any seq
21:06	TEttinger	(->> (rest (map #(char (+ 64 %)) (range 26))) (take-nth 2))
21:06	TEttinger	##(->> (rest (map #(char (+ 64 %)) (range 26))) (take-nth 2))
21:06	lazybot	⇒ (\A \C \E \G \I \K \M \O \Q \S \U \W \Y)
21:06	amalloy	Frozenlock: "items in xs whose index is odd", not "items in xs which are odd"
21:06	amalloy	he didn't ask very clearly; the context was implied from earlier questions
21:06	Frozenlock	Ah, shame on me for not ready the backlog I suppose.
21:07	Frozenlock	"So what would be the idiomatic way to say, take the odd elements of a lazy sequence in a ->>?" Seemed like a direct question...
21:07	Frozenlock	*reading
21:13	TimMc	ztellman: I've backed off somewhat from the idea of generating actions based on reflection. (I was starting to gibber slightly. Gibbering is a bad sign.)
21:17	verma	A function signature like: (fn [root korks f & args]) will not match (f a b c)?
21:18	amalloy	~tias
21:18	clojurebot	tias is try it and see
21:18	verma	,(fn [a & args]) 1)
21:18	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval25$fn__26 sandbox$eval25$fn__26@1450a6c>
21:18	amalloy	c'mon, clojurebot, i know you have a more fun-sized factoid for that
21:18	verma	,((fn [a & args]) 1)
21:18	clojurebot	nil
21:18	verma	dafuq, why am I getting an exception here
21:19	verma	ok checking
21:20	verma	my bad :P
23:00	TimMc	andyf: I did find one thing that iterator patch missed. Updating ticket.
23:01	andyf	Excellent!
23:07	doritostains	lein ring uberjar keeps adding ring-devel/reload even through ring-devel only appears in the dev profile. anyone else had this problem?
23:08	amalloy	doritostains: lein ring is a separate task from lein uberjar. it does not run in the uberjar profile
23:09	technomancy	amalloy: I think lein-ring has an uberjar subtask
23:09	amalloy	you could try lein with-profile uberjar ring uberjar, i suppose, although i'm not sure how well that would work
23:09	technomancy	doritostains: I would just get rid of lein-ring though
23:09	amalloy	technomancy: right, but does it run in lein's uberjar context?
23:09	technomancy	it's full of weird little quirks like this that are difficult to debug
23:09	technomancy	amalloy: it might. old versions wouldn't though.
23:12	amalloy	yeah. i was guessing he has a version that doesn't, since it apparently is in fact including dev
23:13	doritostains	technomancy, amalloy: thanks, I was about to give up on lein-ring so I’ll go ahead and do that
23:13	doritostains	amalloy: what’s weird is that it’s only including ring-devel, nothing else from dev. If i remove ring-devel from dev everything works fine