#clojure – 2014-06-05

2014-06-05

00:01	dbasch	j0ni: you either want to exclude the version from capacitor, or use that version instead of the newer one
03:01	Lajjla	em-dash, I approve of your name.
03:01	Lajjla	Now, how shall we use this information to conquer the world.
03:02	em-dash	um, typo nerd? or bot?
03:03	Lajjla	em-dash, nahh, just trying to look intelligent by using them.
03:05	em-dash	which is nice… plus they look nicer than hyphens. by which I probably mean more ‘distinguished’, aka trying to look intelligent
03:05	Lajjla	Indeed
03:05	Lajjla	you and I are much alike.
03:05	Lajjla	So, assume the position and surrender your eye socket, we will make merry love.
04:39	noncom	does anyone know if zach oakes ever visits this place?
04:42	clgv	noncom: dont remember seeing his name here during usual european day time
04:58	TEttinger	noncom: is he the guy behind play-clj, nightcode, and a bunch of other neat clojure tools?
04:59	TEttinger	AFAICT he doesn't use IRC
05:08	noncom	yeah, that very guy. wanted to talk with him about play-clj
05:08	noncom	so guess gotta go get him over reddit since it is pointed to at his website
05:13	clgv	noncom: email? ;)
05:15	TEttinger	yeah, play-clj is nice
05:15	TEttinger	I used it
05:15	noncom	oh, right, email :) there is the address on his github page
05:16	noncom	i want to use libgdx. i like the "bining" part of play-clj, but i am not rather sure i like the workflow that it enforces
05:16	noncom	i mean, it is strictly functional. and that also makes it slower
05:17	noncom	i wanted to understand, to which extent is it possible to use it with mutual state
05:22	noncom	TEttinger: how was your experience? did not you feel it somewhat architecturally limiting?
05:27	TEttinger	i felt that way at first
05:27	TEttinger	it's easy to make your own whatever
05:27	TEttinger	which is what i did for the unusual map i needed to render
05:29	TEttinger	I'd imagine Morgawr's thing will be better for this in the long run
05:29	TEttinger	https://github.com/Morgawr/Cloister-engine
05:31	noncom	TEttinger: oh, cloister is on slick..
05:32	noncom	can't take this one, since full 3d opengl is needed, and libgdx is a very advanced thing there
05:32	noncom	so i guess that i will have to write my own binding for it..
05:32	noncom	suiting te needs
05:32	noncom	hence fragmentation of the ecosystem..
05:32	noncom	oh well...
05:39	TEttinger	talk to oakes first, noncom
05:39	noncom	yeah, gonna try that out
05:40	TEttinger	in my experience clojure is just not very fast for real-time games... price you pay for such abstraction
05:42	noncom	yeah, i understand, but it can be rather good if treated properly. the uber-functional way of clojure community mainstream does not play with it well
05:43	noncom	so i have to use the so unwelcomed mutable state
05:43	TEttinger	oh yes
05:43	noncom	where needed
05:43	TEttinger	that is what happened to me
05:43	TEttinger	I spent so much time micro-optimizing
05:43	TEttinger	when I could have been blissfully writing C#
05:43	noncom	haha)
05:43	TEttinger	I was porting a C# program to clojure
05:44	noncom	so what you came up with? what were your thoughts on this and conclusions
05:44	TEttinger	the C# got a lot further in less time
05:44	noncom	what kind of game?
05:44	TEttinger	RPG/roguelike
05:44	TEttinger	I made a wallpaper out of it https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11914692/dungeon-wallpaper.png
05:45	noncom	reminds me of graphical nethack
05:45	noncom	so, clojure was slow even for that kind of game??
05:45	lazybot	noncom: Definitely not.
05:45	TEttinger	haha the sprites are from nethack
05:45	TEttinger	yeah, if I kept maps small it was OK
05:46	TEttinger	but if they got above like 40x40, then I started having monster pathfinding slowdowns, various calculations slowing down as they played out every movement...
05:47	TEttinger	large parts were in java as well
05:47	noncom	hmm i think that if you would use enough mutable state and caching, that would not've been the case
05:47	TEttinger	I got good speedup by offloading level gen into a second thread with a promise
05:47	TEttinger	or was it a future?
05:48	TEttinger	mutable state actually slowed down the program at one point when I had a plain array of java sprite objects
05:49	TEttinger	they I believe couldn't be disposed
05:49	noncom	hmmm
05:49	TEttinger	I really hammered at it
05:50	noncom	so you think that clojure can have this large impact on performance?
05:50	TEttinger	spent way too much time trying to make it fast
05:50	noncom	hmm]
05:50	TEttinger	yeah, I just didn't understand why it was slow
05:50	TEttinger	immutable data structures are part
05:50	TEttinger	vector-to-other conversions are slow when done many times
05:51	noncom	it is just that i made some programs with variable geometries (using VBOs) wit clojure + jmonkeyengine 3 and it was rather fine..
05:51	noncom	i had to use java arrays though
05:51	noncom	or ByteBuffers from nio
05:51	noncom	which is ok
05:51	TEttinger	I think the issue was that there's no "easy way" to make clojure fast
05:53	TEttinger	I love how expressive clojure is, but in my experience games can't benefit much from that due to slowdown
05:53	TEttinger	my clojure code was monstrous though
05:53	noncom	how do you think, is it slow on calculations or flow control?
05:53	TEttinger	calculations are mostly java speed
05:54	noncom	i don't know what to think of what you're saying coz i was kinda doing some games with clojure and they were very ok with speed...
05:54	TEttinger	if you have enough type hints you should be fine, and even then, untyped-arithmetic warnings didn't speed yup much
05:54	noncom	but i did not do this kind of game like you did
05:54	TEttinger	it's possible all my problems were logic related
05:54	TEttinger	or libgdx related
05:54	noncom	this worth a further research
05:54	TEttinger	sounds like you used less wrapping
05:55	TEttinger	https://github.com/tommyettinger/Ravager
05:55	noncom	i am not an addict of "make everything functional whatever the cost"
05:56	noncom	actually, i have designed and am using a OO system for my apps
05:56	TEttinger	well https://github.com/tommyettinger/Ravager/tree/master/ravager/desktop/src-common/gaunt/ravager is where you want to look
05:56	noncom	this OO things seems very fast
05:56	noncom	(comparingly)
05:57	TEttinger	I would guess that libgdx has some slowdown as well relative to a jmonkey bit
05:57	noncom	TEttinger: you have used play-clj, i think this served a huge lag too
05:57	TEttinger	no, actually it got faster on play-clj
05:57	TEttinger	because i wasn't leaking VRA<
05:57	noncom	why do you think libgdx is slower? i was thinking the opposite... it is more low-level than jme
05:57	TEttinger	M
05:58	TEttinger	i dunno. libgdx isn't just an OGL wrapper
05:58	TEttinger	never used JME
05:59	noncom	jme isn't either. it has a whole thick layer between ogl and user so that you do not even see a bit of ogl.. libgdx is different. it is like ogl but with optimisations (as i see it for now)
05:59	noncom	so i think that i will devise my thing and we shall see what comes out of it
06:00	TEttinger	you don't see any OGL from libgdx either... the most I had was I called some things to clear the screen from GL
06:00	TEttinger	I need to go to bed
06:00	TEttinger	good luck with your non-functional clojure game lib?
06:01	noncom	ok, good night! i will continue the research. i think that wen i get somewhere, we may run some tests to see what is all this slowdown thing for
06:56	dabbelingClj	Hi there I want to build a clojure web app with absolute minimal UI, what approach and libraries can you suggest?
07:08	dabbelingClj	No ideas on how to build simple web Uis?
07:08	gyim	dabbelingClj: i would suggest compojure, hiccup and Twitter UI bootstrap
07:08	dabbelingClj	3 libs
07:08	dabbelingClj	that "feels" quite heavy
07:08	scape	:sigh
07:09	dabbelingClj	hiccup is templating?
07:10	gyim	clojure web libs usually do one thing well, which is in contrast to providing a big all-in-one framework like rails or django
07:10	clgv	dabbelingClj: no not heavy since the individual libs are small ;)
07:11	clgv	dabbelingClj: hiccup is for building html via clojure datastructures. for templating there are other option.
07:12	dabbelingClj	how would the interaction between hiccup and twitter bootstrap look like?
07:13	gyim	hiccup is just for generating html. So you generate a html that uses the elements/attributes bootstrap supports
07:14	dabbelingClj	how does bootstrap compare to clojurescript in regard to build "interactive" web apps?
07:14	clgv	dabbelingClj: apples and oranges ;)
07:15	dabbelingClj	I'd figure its not really a clojure problem
07:15	dabbelingClj	more that the "web" is messed up
07:16	dabbelingClj	but I still dont like it
07:16	dabbelingClj	"web-components"
07:16	clgv	dabbelingClj: you can setup a tiny web ui with ring+compojure+hiccup pretty fast. I did that for a project
07:17	agarman	I liked this demo: http://rigsomelight.com/2014/05/01/interactive-programming-flappy-bird-clojurescript.html
07:17	dabbelingClj	clgv: you have example link?
07:17	clgv	agarman: not nightplay, right?
07:17	agarman	nope
07:17	agarman	it uses figwheel
07:18	clgv	dabbelingClj: no, currently closed source. it's going to be open source in some weeks#
07:19	clgv	dabbelingClj: but is pretty easy getting started with the READMEs of these projects. but there are already enough blogposts that offer more I guess
07:19	dabbelingClj	clgv: can you suggest "good" blog posts?
07:20	bhauman	agarman: :)
07:20	clgv	dabbelingClj: as I said I used the READMEs only ;)
07:20	dabbelingClj	clgv: yes and how long did it take you?
07:21	dabbelingClj	clgv: also interesting: how much exposure to javascript/HTML/CSS did you have before
07:22	clgv	dabbelingClj: it doesnt use CSS or javascript - that's what I assumed "tiny web ui" means ;)
07:22	agarman	bhauman: I showed that demo to folks at work. Everyone loved it.
07:22	agarman	(inc bhauman)
07:22	lazybot	⇒ 4
07:22	clgv	dabbelingClj: if I had time I'd add twitter bootstrap
07:23	clgv	dabbelingClj: getting up and running with basic stuff and authentication/authorization approx 1-2 hours
07:23	dabbelingClj	clgv: see I dont need that
07:24	dabbelingClj	I think i misplaced my questions
07:24	gyim	dabbelingClj: how much experience do you have? I think clojure is not so good for learning about basic web technologies (http, html, css, js), but once you are familiar with these, it is very easy to use imho
07:24	clgv	dabbelingClj: yeah I did need authorization since the web ui controls a server program ;)
07:24	dabbelingClj	what clojure librariy can I use for rapid HTML prototyping, possibly with interactive feed back?
07:26	clgv	dabbelingClj: ring+compojure+hiccup
07:28	dabbelingClj	clgv: ok but that would still bee code in editor, go to browser and then hit refresh?
07:28	dabbelingClj	clgv: I think i'm looking for a more integrated approach , maybe with LT
07:29	clgv	dabbelingClj: well you start a server via ring and can reload the web ui in browser as you like
07:29	dabbelingClj	clgv: something where i see instantly my changes applied
07:29	clgv	dabbelingClj: yeah maybe LT has something like that since it is running in a browser itself
07:29	dabbelingClj	clgv: well i guess i give hiccup a try, but first lunch :)
07:31	bhauman	agarman: thanks man1
07:58	turbopape	Hi guys,
07:58	turbopape	I want to use storm, but I am afraid that the clojure DSL has not been worked on since at least two years...
07:59	turbopape	Can I use it with peace of mind, or was its support dropped (the clojure DSL that is ?)
07:59	agarman	I'm not sure the state of storm
07:59	agarman	I skipped using it at previous gig, and same at this current
08:00	turbopape	agarman storm as a whole seems to be well, It's for the clojure DSL that I'm worried ...
08:01	turbopape	And I really am afraid of doing this in java ... :(
08:02	agarman	turbopape: probably better to ask storm folks
08:03	turbopape	indeed agarman, thank you, I just wanted to get a feel how much is it being used by clojurians...
08:03	turbopape	not that much, as far as I can tell ...
08:03	boyscared	i've used it, but it was about 2 years ago
08:03	boyscared	in a primarily java app, no less
08:04	boyscared	it worked fine back then, and i'd probably conclude that there's no reason it wouldn't still work
08:04	turbopape	thanks boyscared , did you use the clojure DSL ?
08:04	boyscared	nope
08:05	turbopape	Have you heard about someone using it boyscared ?
08:06	boyscared	not personally, no. i'd venture you'd be fine, but i can't really speak authoritatively on it
08:06	turbopape	ok boyscared . I'll ask about this on their mailing-list. Thanks ! cc agarman
08:06	boyscared	were i you, i'd probably slap together a quick prototype
08:28	gfredericks	promise->future: https://github.com/fredericksgary/repl-utils/blob/master/src/com/gfredericks/repl/util.clj#L4
08:33	clgv	gfredericks: hehe. do you need that often enough?
08:54	gfredericks	clgv: no just this once
08:54	gfredericks	clgv: it supports the repl-utils library, it is not itself a repl utility I intend to use :)
09:05	trptcolin	any input y’all can give would be super-helpful: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1ejjQgGkwmP1GLn2lFs5jGIBBQsKC1hc5aVieu1VwmYs/viewform
09:35	bja	any thoughts on why clojure.lang.Reflector.invokeMatchingMethod would be failing on a class at runtime in a jetty handler but not in the repl?
09:36	mpenet	gfredericks: looks a bit like a lightweight lamina result-channel
09:36	mpenet	I think ztellman has been extracting this kind of stuff to a separate lib
09:37	mpenet	https://github.com/ztellman/manifold
09:44	myguidingstar_	hi all, is there any tool that helps with producing url to static assets in HTML for Clojure webapps?
09:44	Viesti	Is there an idiomatic way to return a literal value from a function literal?
09:44	justin_smith	bja: is the repl using the same classpath as the jetty handler? is it running jetty via lein ring or something or is it an uberwar servlet?
09:45	AeroNotix	Viesti: (constantly literal)
09:45	TimMc	Viesti: #(do 5) (ew) or (constantly 5)
09:45	justin_smith	myguidingstar_: look at ring.middleware.wrap-resource
09:45	Viesti	Thanks AeroNotix and TimMc
09:46	AeroNotix	nw
09:47	clgv	bja: you probably have reflection warning there in the repl as well. if you add the expected typehint you probably get more information when the error happens in jetty
09:47	justin_smith	it is so appropraite that (partial take 5) is lazy
09:48	Viesti	though those two options still feel a bit funny, but maybe I'm doing it wrong
09:49	justin_smith	there is always (fn [] 5)
09:49	justin_smith	I mean what feels funny about them?
09:50	noncom	constantly is not funny
09:50	Viesti	(into {} (map #(do [(.replaceAll (key %) "\\." "\uFF0E") (val %)]) {"foo." "bar"}))
09:50	Viesti	could do
09:50	Viesti	(into {} (for [entry {"foo." "bar"}] [(.replaceAll (key entry) "\\." "\uFF0E") (val entry)]))
09:50	justin_smith	noncom: it is funny that fn [& _] is fewer chars than constantly and gets you the same result
09:50	Viesti	using for
09:51	Viesti	just realised the list comprehension option
09:51	noncom	justin_smith: this is indeed funny :)
09:51	fizruk	,(take-while not-empty (map (partial take 2) (iterate (partial drop 2) [1 2 3 4 5])))
09:51	clojurebot	((1 2) (3 4) (5))
09:51	fizruk	is there a cleaner way to do that? ^
09:51	fizruk	the actual list is “rest of the arguments"
09:51	justin_smith	(partition-all 2 (range 1 6))
09:51	justin_smith	,(partition-all 2 (range 1 6))
09:51	clojurebot	((1 2) (3 4) (5))
09:52	fizruk	justin_smith: great!
09:54	arrdem	'mornin
09:54	noncom	hi!
10:01	myguidingstar_	justin_smith, sorry for my unclear question
10:03	myguidingstar_	hi all, is there any tool that helps with producing url to static assets in HTML for Clojure webapps? maybe something like: {{git commit's unique id}}+{{path-to-asset}}
10:05	justin_smith	with caribou we have a reverse-routing function called route-for that we use in templates
10:06	justin_smith	though you probably don't want to switch an existing app to caribou, such a function should not be hard to write
10:07	justin_smith	though it is handy for DRY reasons to have a router that also lets you calculate in reverse (the info you provide eg. compojure is sufficient for compojure to generate a reverse routing lookup, though it does not do so)
10:08	justin_smith	I think there are a few routing libs that provide reverse routing (including polaris which we wrote for usage in caribou)
10:11	gfredericks	mpenet: these channel-things don't normally throw exceptions the way futures do, amirite?
10:28	YourRatzon	Hello everyone, I am writing a compiler in clojure and having trouble tokenizing lines. Can someone help?
10:28	gfredericks	YourRatzon: probably so
10:29	YourRatzon	here is my question on SO: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/24060195/tokenizing-a-string-in-clojure?noredirect=1#comment37103057_24060195
10:29	YourRatzon	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/24060195/tokenizing-a-string-in-clojure
10:30	YourRatzon	still here
10:31	gfredericks	YourRatzon: you could look at how clojure's reader does it (in java): https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/LispReader.java#L444
10:35	mpenet	gfredericks: if you deref a result-channel where an exception occured, it will rethrow
10:35	gfredericks	oh nice
10:35	mpenet	gfredericks: so same thing I think
10:36	gfredericks	unlike core.async
10:36	mpenet	yep, I am annoyed by that too
10:36	mpenet	see the example here https://github.com/ztellman/manifold#deferreds
10:36	clojurebot	No entiendo
10:36	gfredericks	eh, it's a different model
10:36	mpenet	it is
10:37	YourRatzon	gfredericks: not sure how that helps me...
10:37	mpenet	everything is a value in core.async, no disctinction
10:37	gfredericks	YourRatzon: do you understand what it does?
10:37	mpenet	distinction*
10:37	YourRatzon	scans the string until the strings end
10:37	clgv	gfredericks: slingshot annoys me right now. I just want to catch and rethrow an exception with throw+ to capture context information...
10:38	gfredericks	YourRatzon: you probably don't want to use a regex up front to split things
10:39	YourRatzon	Ok, how should I do it? it's so simple for all the other tokens
10:39	YourRatzon	just the string literals causing problems
10:39	borkdude	YourRatzon someone has suggested instaparse, that may be what you ened
10:39	gfredericks	+1 to instaparse
10:39	gfredericks	clgv: huh? is this related to catch-data?
10:40	clgv	gfredericks: I just remembered talking about slingshot with you some other day ;)
10:40	YourRatzon	I see
10:41	gfredericks	clgv: yeah what exactly is slingshot doing for you? what's "context information"?
10:41	YourRatzon	wanted to see if there was a simple line i could add to my regex, guess not..
10:41	clgv	if I need this more often I build a rethrow-context macro ;)
10:41	clgv	gfredericks: local binding values are included
10:41	gfredericks	clgv: I think that feature is so weird
10:41	clgv	but only if I throw data and not exceptions :(
10:42	clgv	gfredericks: huh? why?
10:42	gfredericks	clgv: because it's only going to be programmatically useful if you start making assumptions about the names of the locals at the throw point
10:43	clgv	gfredericks: I am processing large data and at some point it fails and I currently have no idea where. since it process parallel a println strategy doesnt tell me that much ;)
10:43	clgv	gfredericks: I need it for interactive debugging only^^
10:44	gfredericks	clgv: would be interesting to include it as metadata on the ex-info map
10:44	gfredericks	that way it doesn't make its way into logging or anything, but it's there at the repl
10:44	clgv	right
10:45	gfredericks	clgv: so the throwing in this case is by your code or a library?
10:46	clgv	gfredericks: my code. so I could wrap a custom macro around it, that does the job without using slingshot...
10:46	gfredericks	clgv: mpenet just submitted a PR to catch-data with a throw-data macro
10:46	gfredericks	I could add the locals-as-metadata feature; would that solve all your problems?
10:47	clgv	gfredericks: sounds great
10:47	clgv	gfredericks: does throw-data offer an option to keep the exception chain intact?
10:47	gfredericks	wat does that mean
10:48	clgv	usually exceptions offer a constructor where you can pass another exception as cause
10:48	gfredericks	oh right; yes
10:48	gfredericks	just like clojure.core/ex-info
10:48	gfredericks	right now the impl is just `(throw (ex-info ~@args))
10:48	gfredericks	I was considering a string-only option as well
10:48	clgv	yes indead
10:49	gfredericks	where you'd get an empty map, but still having locals-as-metadata
10:49	clgv	ah ok. that'll work with the metadata added :D
10:49	clgv	gotta star your project to find it, when the change is released ^^
10:49	YourRatzon	ok thank you gfredericks
11:00	clgv	gfredericks: humm according to the source catch-data is not combinable with other catch-declarations in the same "try"?
11:00	clgv	err same "try+"
11:01	gfredericks	clgv: comments? https://github.com/fredericksgary/catch-data/pull/3
11:01	gfredericks	clgv: it's not?
11:03	clgv	gfredericks: I did not try it but the macro expands to (try body-forms (catch Throwable t ...) final clause)
11:03	clgv	gfredericks: ah do you extract all other to that "cond"?
11:04	gfredericks	prollably
11:04	clgv	ah ok.
11:04	clgv	I expected a (catch ExceptionInfo ....) and other catch clauses inserted literally
11:05	gfredericks	I think that's tricksy
11:05	gfredericks	due to edge cases
11:05	clgv	yeah, I dont want to say anything about right and wrong with that. just my expectation when looking at the source ;)
11:06	gfredericks	the main constraint is that you can't have one catch clause inspect the exception and defer to the next one
11:07	gfredericks	once you rethrow you skip all the remaining catches
11:07	gfredericks	so certainly all the catch-data clauses have to be done together
11:07	clgv	gfredericks: are only maps allowed for throw-data? is that a limitation of ex-info?
11:08	gfredericks	I'm sure it's possible to statically determine a more optimal expansion -- I have no idea what the perf implications are
11:08	gfredericks	,(ex-info "not a map" [])
11:08	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentMap>
11:09	clgv	ok.^^ otherwise a check whether metadata can be added to the object would be needed
11:09	deathknight	hiya fellas
11:09	clgv	gfredericks: looks good so far
11:09	deathknight	a lot of firsts right now: Debian, because all of the Clojure tutorials were not on Windows, and now epic5 irc :)
11:11	clgv	deathknight: you can start learning on any plattform where counterclockwise, cursive or lighttable work. since they offer you all you need to get started. later, when you need leiningen - well it's better test on linux and mac os ;)
11:12	clgv	*tested
11:12	deathknight	:) Hence I feel I made the right decision by dual bootingh.
11:13	deathknight	Has anyone made calls to the TeamworkPM API? They have a java example set up - it's a bit over my head at the moment
11:13	deathknight	Signoff: I'm using emacs live at the moment :]
11:13	deathknight	err, I mean "clgv:"
11:14	clgv	well you gotta ask someone else for solving emacs problems ;)
11:15	gfredericks	clgv: I think I also want string interpolation a lot of the time
11:15	deathknight	Hah, emacs is treating me right. I'm referring to calling in java libraries and such
11:15	clgv	deathknight: you read about java interop from clojure already?
11:16	gfredericks	clgv: e.g., if there were a throw-data-f that automatically used https://github.com/clojure/core.incubator/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/strint.clj#L49 with the map data in scope
11:16	gfredericks	that would be sooper hot
11:16	deathknight	I have not, clgv!
11:16	deathknight	I'm going through Clojure Programming by O'Reilly at the moment
11:17	gfredericks	then I could (throw-data "Expected a keyword but got ~(pr-str arg)" {:arg x})
11:17	clgv	deathknight: ah ok. then maybe you want to jump to that chapter to get to know as much as you need right now
11:18	deathknight	<3
11:19	deathknight	deathknight wants to deathhug you for your help
11:19	clgv	gfredericks: I am not a fan of that string interpolation.I am used to just use "format" ;)
11:20	gfredericks	clgv: with format you can't identify the things by name though
11:20	clgv	gfredericks: no but by position
11:20	gfredericks	but a map of data doesn't have positions
11:21	clgv	,(format "%2$s %1$s" 1 2)
11:21	clojurebot	"2 1"
11:21	clgv	gfredericks: but you dereference that data explicitely in your example?
11:21	clgv	ah no. you build the map...
11:21	gfredericks	clgv: no, the map can be implicitly in scope
11:22	clgv	gfredericks: if it causes no unnecessary expensive overhead, there should be no harm to add that feature ;)
11:24	clgv	,(require 'clojure.core.strint)
11:24	clojurebot	#<FileNotFoundException java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/core/strint__init.class or clojure/core/strint.clj on classpath: >
11:25	clgv	&(require 'clojure.core.strint)
11:25	lazybot	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/core/strint__init.class or clojure/core/strint.clj on classpath:
11:25	arrdem	aw man why's Var final...
11:31	technomancy	it's weird how "final" means two completely unrelated things
11:33	gfredericks	can't extend and can't reassign?
11:35	hyPiRion	technomancy: Guess what the keyword "transient" in Java means.
11:36	cbp	~reactjs
11:36	clojurebot	reactjs is a poorly implemented comonad
11:36	cbp	kek
11:40	irctc	Is there a way using just regex to pull out the number 1311 in brackets (re-find #"\[\d+\]" "Category 123 [1311]")? Right now I get [1311] but I want [ ] to be excluded?
11:41	ToxicFrog	irctc: wrap the \d+ in () and use groups
11:42	mpenet	works with re-find just fine
11:42	mpenet	,(re-find #"\[(\d+)\]" "Category 123 [1311]")
11:42	clojurebot	["[1311]" "1311"]
11:43	irctc	thanks
11:44	borkdude	how do I define a multimethod which I can call like this: (defmulti foo number? [x] "You have given a number") (defmulti foo coll? [x] "You have given a collection")
11:44	mpenet	you prolly want to just dispatch on `type`, but this screams for a protocol
11:45	borkdude	hmhm
11:45	gfredericks	multimethods are pretty good protocols
11:45	gfredericks	I think clojure.core/type is a sneaky-cool function :)
11:45	mpenet	depends on the context (performance)
11:46	cbp	(defmulti foo type)
11:46	technomancy	it's very rare for multimethods to be a performance bottleneck
11:46	borkdude	(type 1) gives me something else than (type 1.0)
11:46	borkdude	I want to use the same definition based on the output of number?
11:46	gfredericks	borkdude: use Number
11:46	gfredericks	borkdude: multimethods respect inheritance
11:47	hyPiRion	gfredericks: perhaps better to use `instance?` instead of `type`?
11:48	borkdude	ok cool (instance? java.lang.Number 1.0)
11:49	hyPiRion	wait hummm
11:49	gfredericks	hyPiRion: wat?
11:49	cbp	type will work fine
11:50	mpenet	type can be weird:
11:50	gfredericks	I like multimethods + type because you can do tricksy things with metadata
11:50	mpenet	,(type (with-meta {:a 1} {:type String}))
11:50	clojurebot	java.lang.String
11:50	borkdude	it just works: (defmethod text Number [x]
11:50	borkdude	"you passed a number")
11:50	borkdude	cool
11:50	cbp	(defmulti foo type) (defmethod foo Number [x] :number)
11:50	borkdude	I used (defmulti text instance?) btw
11:50	hyPiRion	woah, today I learned something new.
11:51	aka	hyPiRion: that keeps happening to me
11:51	hyPiRion	I just thought it checked for equality
11:51	justin_smith	that's what distinguishes type from class
11:51	borkdude	so type? also works, hmm let me see
11:53	cbp	,(isa? Long Number)
11:53	clojurebot	true
11:53	gfredericks	hyPiRion: I think it even does inheritance stuff in collections
11:54	gfredericks	,(defmulti jean (fn [a b] [(type a) (type b)]))
11:54	clojurebot	#'sandbox/jean
11:54	gfredericks	,(defmethod jean [Number Number] [a b] "haha two numbers")
11:54	clojurebot	#<MultiFn clojure.lang.MultiFn@1093b10>
11:54	gfredericks	,(jean 3M 4N)
11:54	clojurebot	"haha two numbers"
11:54	gfredericks	,(defmethod jean [Long Long] [a b] "haha two LONGs")
11:54	clojurebot	#<MultiFn clojure.lang.MultiFn@1093b10>
11:54	gfredericks	,(jean 3 4.2)
11:54	clojurebot	"haha two numbers"
11:55	gfredericks	,(jean 3 4)
11:55	clojurebot	"haha two LONGs"
11:55	gfredericks	I have no idea how nested it will get, or if it works with maps or what.
12:00	borkdude	emacs question: is it possible if you put the point on a symbol, the places where the symbol is used get highlighted?
12:00	clgv	,(use 'clojure.set)
12:00	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
12:00	clgv	oh that's new
12:00	technomancy	borkdude: M-x package-install idle-highlight
12:00	clgv	,(require '[clojure.set :as s])
12:00	clojurebot	nil
12:00	borkdude	technomancy thanks :)
12:00	technomancy	np
12:01	gfredericks	(inc technomancy)
12:01	lazybot	⇒ 111
12:02	gfredericks	technomancy: where do you enable this? every file everywhere? just "code files" FSVO code?
12:02	clgv	,(let [types #(-> % type ancestors)] (->> [1 1.0 1M 1N] (map types) (apply s/intersection)))
12:02	clojurebot	#{java.lang.Number java.io.Serializable java.lang.Object}
12:02	technomancy	gfredericks: (add-hook 'prog-mode-hook 'idle-highlight-mode) is my recommendation
12:02	gfredericks	technomancy: wat is prog-mode
12:03	technomancy	it's for progging
12:03	justin_smith	I think it is a parent mode that language modes inherit
12:03	borkdude	:-D
12:03	gfredericks	(inc prog-mode)
12:03	lazybot	⇒ 1
12:03	borkdude	gtg, thanks guys
12:03	justin_smith	http://emacsredux.com/blog/2013/04/05/prog-mode-the-parent-of-all-programming-modes/
12:04	justin_smith	"the parent of all programming modes"
12:05	hyPiRion	gfredericks: neat, you learned me something new today
12:05	arrdem	theoretically
12:09	gfredericks	hyPiRion: I think clojure has a few interesting features that get mostly ignored
12:12	bbloom_	clojurebot: forget reactjs
12:12	clojurebot	Excuse me?
12:13	bbloom_	~forget reactjs
12:13	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
12:13	bbloom_	shrug
12:13	amalloy	gfredericks, hyPiRion: not collections in general, but vectors specifically i think
12:13	amalloy	bbloom_: you have to tell him what to forget about it
12:13	bbloom_	~reactjs
12:13	clojurebot	reactjs is a poorly implemented comonad
12:13	bbloom_	clojurebot: forget reactjs is a poorly implemented comonad
12:13	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
12:14	amalloy	now that will just make it worse. you taught him about "forget reactjs"
12:14	amalloy	stand back, bbloom_, and let a pro do it
12:14	gfredericks	amalloy: and just shallow occurrences?
12:14	bbloom_	amalloy: LOL
12:14	bbloom_	i suck
12:14	amalloy	clojurebot: forget forget reactjs \|is\| a poorly implemented comonad
12:14	clojurebot	I forgot that forget reactjs is a poorly implemented comonad
12:14	amalloy	clojurebot: forget reactjs \|is\| a poorly implemented comonad
12:14	clojurebot	I forgot that reactjs is a poorly implemented comonad
12:14	amalloy	gfredericks: i don't understand what that means
12:14	bbloom_	amalloy: much thanks
12:15	gfredericks	amalloy: [C1 C2 C3] vs [C1 [C2 C3]]
12:15	bbloom_	now that he who shall not be named has gone, we can purge his nonsense from the brain of poor sweet clojurebot
12:15	tbaldridge	bbloom_: I have still to understand why I would want to know that something is a co-monad
12:15	bbloom_	tbaldridge: you wouldn't :-P
12:15	amalloy	gfredericks: see https://www.refheap.com/9b7060a5c29c0f80b43bbb598 - vectors cause recursion in isa?, so you can nest them arbitrarily
12:15	gfredericks	clojurebot: <X> is a poorly implemented <sufficiently abstract concept>
12:15	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
12:16	bbloom_	tbaldridge: i'm trying to rescue reiddraper but i think jimduey may be too far gone ;-)
12:16	justin_smith	"this thing, I don't know what to call it but it reminds me of reactjs in its structure (though it is better implemented)"
12:16	tbaldridge	bbloom_: lol
12:16	gfredericks	amalloy: nice
12:16	gfredericks	bbloom_: I think test.check has at least three different monads
12:16	tbaldridge	it does seem that once people go down the monad trail they stop producing practical code
12:17	reiddraper	really?
12:17	bbloom_	tbaldridge: ah c'mon now
12:17	amalloy	sshhh, tbaldridge is biased, don't listen to him
12:17	bbloom_	tbaldridge: you went down the trail and returned from the depths
12:17	bbloom_	you built something practical with monads
12:17	tbaldridge	bbloom_: very little, lol
12:18	gfredericks	tbaldridge: also test.check with its three monads has been very practical for me
12:18	reiddraper	i think test.check is practical.
12:18	reiddraper	and their use is basically 100% transparent to the user
12:18	bbloom_	and at least reiddraper had a good excuse for test.check, non-determinism and backtracking are actually a sensible use case
12:18	tbaldridge	I've since repented of my ways, infact a prototype of the go macro I'm working on is based on mutable data structures, it cuts the code size by about 1/2
12:18	bbloom_	although i'd have used a state machine transducing over a sequence, but that's jsut me :-P
12:18	gfredericks	it's also worth mentioning that despite the three monads, reiddraper didn't try to twist clojure into having some sort of generic monad construct
12:18	hyPiRion	gfredericks: yet
12:18	reiddraper	hyPiRion: lol
12:19	bbloom_	as far as i'm concerned, there are two useful monads: the list monad (we've got that!) and the continuation monad (i'm putting it in to eclj :-P)
12:20	amalloy	aw, it's cheating to count continuations as one monad, and then use it to model exceptions and io
12:20	amalloy	(which i recall, perhaps incorrectly, is your plan)
12:20	bbloom_	amalloy: i didn't say i was going to include do notation or even expose the monadic protocol
12:20	bbloom_	simply that all this busienss about "free monads" is about creating interpreters
12:20	amalloy	i know you aren't. you hate generic monads and functors
12:20	tbaldridge	reiddraper: just out of curiosity does test.check need monads? I'm wondering since I've found that most/all of mukanren can be implemented via lazy seqs instead of monads
12:21	bbloom_	if you have an extensible interpreter that can (critically important!) grow as well as restrict it's set of functionality, then you don't do syntax
12:21	reiddraper	tbaldridge: suppose it depends on how you define "need"
12:21	tbaldridge	or plerhaps once I start using mapcat + lazy seqs I'm technically using monads anyways,
12:21	gfredericks	tbaldridge: bbloom_: I think the most syntactically helpful thing I've done while using it is a variant of clojure.core/for, which works since the generators are monadic
12:22	hiredman	gfredericks: speaking of test.checks for, it doesn't seem to work just like clojure's, it didn't seem to let me refer to values from "outer" generators in "inner" generators
12:23	gfredericks	hiredman: that sounds wrong?
12:23	bbloom_	tbaldridge: yeah, you'd technically be using monads.... but i argue it's like technically using a turing machine
12:23	gfredericks	hiredman: the basic case with multiple clauses turns into bind
12:23	bbloom_	tbaldridge: nobody wants to program a turing machine
12:23	tbaldridge	as to my comment awhile back about "practical code", what I meant was that there is so much dense theory involved in monads, free monads, co monads, etc. That people can spend years reading up on the stuff instead of producing code.
12:23	gfredericks	hiredman: so the outer value should be visible everywhere below
12:23	hiredman	gfredericks: ok, I'll try again(and harder) some time
12:23	reiddraper	tbaldridge: using monads was a really natural way for me to write it, and I think it lead to a clean external API, with little "magic" and gotchas
12:23	gfredericks	hiredman: if that's not the case, it's a bug
12:24	reiddraper	tbaldridge: whether you could achieve that or not without them, I'd have to reflect on that a bit
12:24	bbloom_	reiddraper: i'm actually with you that you made the right practical call to use monads if that made sense to you there
12:24	gfredericks	hiredman: e.g., this test passes: https://github.com/fredericksgary/test.chuck/blob/master/test/com/gfredericks/test/chuck/generators_test.clj#L20
12:24	arrdem	tbaldridge: by that argument the months I spent reading into lisps and functional languages rather than hacking more C were a waste.
12:24	bbloom_	reiddraper: but you really should consider reifying the internal state in to a map and then reducing over a command sequence
12:25	bbloom_	reiddraper: you'll get all the same properties, plus much better debuggability
12:25	bbloom_	you could pretty easily invent some kind of 'for' syntax for extracting intermediate answers from the state machine too, if you need several monads to cooperate
12:25	gfredericks	reiddraper: we just need one more monad -- the state monad :D
12:25	reiddraper	bbloom_: interesting, i'll definitely consider that
12:29	YourRatzon	Hello, I have a question
12:30	YourRatzon	can someone explain the following:
12:30	reiddraper	tbaldridge: to offer another perspective, many of the people who I admire most who're into that theory, produce insane amounts of practical code
12:30	YourRatzon	(filter empty [:s "" [:k "hi"]])
12:30	YourRatzon	([:k "hi"])
12:30	YourRatzon	(filter empty [:s "" [:k "hi"]])
12:30	YourRatzon	([:k "hi"])
12:30	YourRatzon	(filter empty [:s "" [:k "hi"]])
12:30	YourRatzon	([:k "hi"])
12:30	YourRatzon	(filter empty [:s "" [:k "hi"]])
12:30	YourRatzon	([:k "hi"])
12:30	YourRatzon	(filter empty [:s "" [:k "hi"]])
12:30	YourRatzon	([:k "hi"])
12:30	YourRatzon	(filter empty [:s "" [:k "hi"]])
12:30	YourRatzon	oops sorry for multiple lines
12:30	amalloy	~paste
12:30	clojurebot	paste is not gist.github.com
12:30	amalloy	~refheap
12:30	clojurebot	https://www.refheap.com/
12:31	gfredericks	,(empty :s)
12:31	amalloy	YourRatzon: anyway, you're confusing empty? with empty
12:31	clojurebot	nil
12:31	gfredericks	,(empty? :s)
12:31	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Keyword>
12:31	gfredericks	weird
12:31	YourRatzon	I know, empty is what causes a coll to become empty
12:31	YourRatzon	so I don't understand the output
12:32	amalloy	filter is not map
12:33	tbaldridge	YourRatzon: so everything that is not a collection is returning nil and is removed by filter
12:33	reiddraper	amalloy: what's wrong with gist.github?
12:33	tbaldridge	leaving only [:k "hi"]
12:33	amalloy	reiddraper: nothing. it's just clojurebot's stupid inference engine
12:33	amalloy	and the increasingly absurd things people teach him in order to have fun with said engine
12:33	reiddraper	ah i see, ha
12:34	YourRatzon	tbaldridge: is this intended behavior when filter is ran with a non-predicate, or a bug?
12:34	tbaldridge	YourRatzon: no, there's nothing wrong with using a non-predicate, filter just removes items where (not (pred value))
12:35	tbaldridge	YourRatzon: your example is just a bit odd since I can't think of a reason why you would want to do what you're doing, but hey it could work
12:35	tbaldridge	,(filter {:a :b :c :d} [:a :b :c :d])
12:35	clojurebot	(:a :c)
12:36	YourRatzon	tbaldridge: well actually I have a vector full of collections and non-collections and I want to only keep the collections
12:36	gill_	try map?
12:36	tbaldridge	YourRatzon: you could try this then
12:37	tbaldridge	,(filter coll? [:a "foo" 1 [1 2 3] #{1 2}])
12:37	clojurebot	([1 2 3] #{1 2})
12:37	YourRatzon	thanks that works
12:38	YourRatzon	i just came across the (filter empty) behavior by accident and didnt udnerstand why it was working the way it did
12:38	YourRatzon	thanks for the explanation
12:38	catern	I just went through https://devcenter.heroku.com/articles/clojure-web-application and I am a little confused - how am I supposed to debug things?
12:38	catern	when I stick print statements in my functions, they don't print to the REPL
12:38	catern	should I print to the web page? /new to web development
12:39	catern	i think i would prefer it if I could print to the REPL..
12:39	catern	(Cider specifically)
12:41	{blake}	In working with this code https://www.refheap.com/61d3a3c7f691c1f26c8084770 amalloy volunteered yesterday (thanks to all for the feedback, btw) I realized that it gives me a list of maps containing vector keys and vector values, when I really want one map.
12:41	{blake}	So I changed the "(conj (index content tt) {tt content})" to "(assoc (index2 content tt) tt content)" figuring that would get me the right structure, even though multiple entries for a key would wipe each other out. Instead, I get a "clojure.lang.LazySeq cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Associative".
12:41	nullptr	catern: they print to the browser debug console
12:42	catern	nullptr: whaaaaaaaaat really? just auto[magically?
12:42	catern	(by print to the web page I meant just stick in calls to "str" in random places)
12:42	catern	(and inject that into the hmtl)
12:43	catern	automagically*
12:43	catern	i don't see them in "Console" in Firefox's debugger, where should I be looking?
12:43	nullptr	str just makes a string -- but assuming you're using print and have enabled it[1] the messages should show up there 1. https://github.com/swannodette/om/blob/master/examples/counters/src/core.cljs#L7
12:44	catern	no no, haha
12:44	catern	i'm just using clojure and compojure and ring
12:44	catern	to serve static HTML
12:45	nullptr	i see, assumed cljs from your commentary
12:45	catern	and if I put a (println "Foobar") in the function that produces my index page, it doesn't seem to print anywhere
12:45	catern	it sure would be cool if that somehow ended up in the browser debug console :D
12:46	amalloy	{blake}: a for-comprehension necessarily produces a sequence, and doesn't have access to "previous" values. but it should be possible to do what you want either by reducing over something, or using an `(into {} (for ...))` stanza once you're done producing the list
12:47	{blake}	amalloy, So the error itself is because it IS a lazy sequence, even though I'm realizing it right then?
12:48	{blake}	amalloy, (I mean, I figured I could do it that way, but I'm not always sure that the way I'm thinking is idiomatic.)
12:49	amalloy	it has nothing to do with laziness or realizing. sequences just aren't maps. i don't know what (index2 content tt) returns, but apparently it's a sequence, and you're trying to assoc onto it
12:49	amalloy	even if it worked, you'd still get out a sequence in the end, because that's what for produces
12:50	{blake}	index = index2, I just renamed it to work on it.
12:50	{blake}	The idea was to make it return a map rather than a sequence.
12:52	{blake}	But it can't return a map because it's a "for"...that's what I'm missing.
12:56	gill_	{blake}: what data do you pass in? have a paste of that?
12:57	devn	technomancy: any idea of how I can get rid of this error: java.io.FileNotFoundException: data/stats/all.edn (No such file or directory) -- this is after loading the test data for clojars.org
12:57	devn	and trying to view a specific project page, like 'clojure-useful' or whatever
12:58	{blake}	gill_, I'm using https://www.refheap.com/86314 for sample data.
12:59	devn	technomancy: nevermind (for now) -- looks like we just need to run the tests
13:01	{blake}	So an "into {}" gives me the right structure, I just have to keep it from overwriting the existing value (which reminds me of a 4clojure exercise...)
13:03	gill_	so you could call with (into {} (index sample0 [])) ?
13:04	{blake}	Well, that still overwrites the keys.
13:05	gill_	okay just making sure i understood
13:05	nullptr	bx
13:05	rasmusto	hrm, you're talking about overwriting keys in an (into {}) call?
13:06	{blake}	Right now I have a map of {[vector-key][]...} and I need a map of {[vector-key][value value value]}.
13:06	{blake}	rasmusto, yes
13:06	rasmusto	i wonder if you could use some combination of partition[-by] and merge-with
13:06	rasmusto	or just a plain old reduce
13:07	amalloy	(apply merge-with into the-maps)
13:08	{blake}	sorcery!
13:08	amalloy	but you need to be careful, {blake}. if you make `index` return a map, then its recursive calls to itself, which expect a sequence, will break! you instead probably want some function wrapping index, which converts the produced sequence into a map
13:10	{blake}	amalloy, Yeah. I've done that. =P
13:18	dbasch	someone needs to restart the process that logs this channel! http://clojure-log.n01se.net/
13:18	dbasch	or I could host my own on my trusty aws micro
13:20	cbp	dbasch: lazybot also logs logs.lazybot.org
13:20	rasmusto	loglazyloglazy
13:21	dbasch	cool, I was already thinking about writing a logger with some evil replacement patterns
13:21	dbasch	e.g. filter -> purify
13:21	cbp	monad -> burrito
13:22	dbasch	I like your thinking cbp
13:26	dbasch	I’m hungry, let’s get a monad
13:27	arrdem	what? it's not 12:00UGT yet!
13:27	gfredericks	there was a group that went out for monads at clojure/west one day
13:32	behelit	planning to take clojure for a spin. figured i'd start with a web project. which framework(s) are worth looking into?
13:33	nDuff	behelit, in general, we don't like frameworks here. :)
13:33	deathknight	Hey guys, using java for my first time with lein and cider-jack-in can't start a REPL server.
13:33	behelit	coming from python+django (form heavy, crud apps) and erlang+cowboy (webapps, ws etc).
13:33	technomancy	無
13:33	nDuff	behelit, ...the Clojure Way encourages small tools that aren't heavily opinionated about how they're used or combined with others.
13:33	cbp	behelit: Luminus is gr8
13:33	behelit	nDuff: ok, hat lbs for form generation, validation, session management, dbdrivers etc?
13:34	behelit	heh, s/hat lbs/what libs/
13:34	behelit	:)
13:34	rasmusto	heh, s/hat
13:35	behelit	and routing of course.
13:35	arrdem	-f /dev/hat
13:35	nDuff	...now, if you wanted something that _was_ very framework-y, there's Hoplon (hoplon.io)
13:36	technomancy	compojure is what everyone uses for routing. there are about a bajillion validation libraries that seem to all do the same thing though.
13:37	cbp	I don't use compojure!!
13:37	nDuff	...in terms of database drivers, there's clojure.java.jdbc, which everything backends into, and then a few different flavors on top
13:37	technomancy	~guards
13:37	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
13:37	behelit	hehe
13:37	cbp	Nooo! death to macros
13:37	behelit	and templating?
13:38	behelit	ring for middleware it seems
13:38	technomancy	behelit: templating depends on who's going to be writing them. if it's all going to be handled by clojure programmers then hiccup is definitely the simplest choice.
13:38	technomancy	but it's not so good for interacting with designers
13:38	nDuff	behelit, ...so, the shiny new way to do things is to have your UI generated client-side with Om, which is bloody awesome (and has a hiccup-like interface).
13:38	cbp	behelit: http://www.luminusweb.net/
13:38	technomancy	please don't generate your HTML exclusively client-side =(
13:38	nDuff	behelit, ...but that's if you're writing something that's a single-page-app everything-rendered-clientside type deal.
13:38	behelit	cpetzold: checking that out.
13:39	cbp	(inc cpetzold)
13:39	lazybot	⇒ 1
13:39	justin_smith	technomancy: you crufty old gnu-hippies who never turn on javascript will have to crack one of these days
13:39	behelit	nDuff: yeah, we've used react, angular et al for webapps previously. Will look into Om.
13:39	koreth_	Search engines also don't deal well with client-side page generation (though Google is improving in that area recently). Not an issue if your site isn't public, of course.
13:39	arrdem	justin_smith: I'll just keep waiting until we replace JS with a real language...
13:39	nDuff	behelit, ...also, the "death to macros" advice given by cbp should be taken into account when deciding on database libraries; Korma is much, much too macro-centric in my experience; makes it hard to work with sometimes.
13:40	nDuff	behelit, nod -- if you're familiar with React, you'll be very very comfortable with Om.
13:40	technomancy	justin_smith: maybe once they figure out a way to make JS not completely suck from the keyboard
13:40	cbp	Also timbre
13:40	behelit	great stuff
13:40	cbp	so i herd u like macros
13:40	rasmusto	wait, is that possible?
13:41	michaniskin	i love macros
13:41	rasmusto	macro macros
13:41	rasmusto	i mean
13:41	cbp	i have a macro inside your defmacro inside your defmacro
13:41	justin_smith	rasmusto: maybe like using m4 and a configure script to generate your clojure macros?
13:41	arrdem	yo dawg i heard u leik macros...
13:41	behelit	nDuff: any db in particular that's commonly used in the community? i currently use postgres, riak, and/or redis in most projects.
13:41	rasmusto	ic
13:42	cbp	behelit: I guess datomic
13:42	behelit	oh. never did try datomic.
13:42	amalloy	arrdem: http://ro-che.info/ccc/20
13:43	cbp	no reason not to use any of the others though but I heard edn support in non clojure languages is kinda bad
13:43	justin_smith	cbp is very much a clojure niche thing, but I don't know how prevalent it is
13:43	behelit	cbp: edn support?
13:43	justin_smith	*it is
13:43	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
13:43	justin_smith	~edn
13:43	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
13:43	justin_smith	behelit: edn is a spec describing the most simple level of clojure data literals
13:43	cbp	behelit: like json for clojure
13:44	behelit	ah
13:44	arrdem	amalloy: heh
13:44	cbp	which is what datomic works with
13:44	cpetzold	cbp: lazybot thinks i’m a 0 :(
13:44	behelit	great. i think i have all i need to get started.
13:45	behelit	thanks a million, guys
13:46	Jaood	is there a favourite db for datomic?
13:46	Jaood	storage option
13:48	gfredericks	depends on what you need for perf/scalability and how easy it is for you to setup things
13:48	behelit	oh, datomic can run on top of riak?
13:50	Jaood	gfredericks: was wondering is there is one storage option that is more tested and more well supported than the others
13:50	Jaood	behelit: yes
13:51	gfredericks	Jaood: not that I know of
13:55	stompyj	catern: heroku logs --tail
13:55	stompyj	ahhhh
13:55	catern	stompyj: wat?
13:56	stompyj	catern: were you asking about seeing output from your heroku instance locally?
13:58	catern	stompyj: no, I want to see things I print in the REPL
13:58	catern	I don't use Heroku
13:58	catern	things I print in functions that are executed by jetty*
13:58	stompyj	aha, I assumed you did when you linked a URL from heroku
13:59	stompyj	sorry bout that
13:59	sandbags0	I've added :jvm-opts ["-XX:-OmitStackTraceInFastThrow"] to my project.clj to avoid getting "NullPointerException [trace missing]" errors and now I get a trace, but only the first line of the trace
13:59	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
14:00	sandbags0	anyone know how to get the full trace?
14:00	justin_smith	catern: probably something like /var/log/jetty[N]/*
14:00	cbp	clojurebot: be nice
14:00	clojurebot	No entiendo
14:00	justin_smith	where N if present would be the version
14:00	sandbags0	unfortunately finding out it's in Numbers.java isn't as helpful as it could be
14:01	cbp	maybe its something like ##(+ 1 nil)
14:01	lazybot	java.lang.NullPointerException
14:01	cbp	:-P
14:01	dbasch	catern: are you using cider?
14:02	cbp	sandbags0: you can try using tools.trace
14:02	amalloy	sandbags0: i think tieredstopatlevel can help? the problem is often that the code has been JITed to death
14:02	sandbags0	cbp: thanks, i will look into that
14:02	sandbags0	amalloy: is AOT related here? compojure seems to turn it on by default ":aot :all" maybe i should turn it off?
14:03	sandbags0	i'm not sure if the AOT thing is removing info that the runtime might later want to use
14:03	amalloy	probably not, although i hate aot all
14:03	sandbags0	tyring it without
14:03	behelit	quick question, trying to persuade a colleague to join me: three reasons to use clojure.
14:03	arrdem	if the JIT is killing printlns or :aot :all is disabling code, there are huge correctness issues.
14:03	arrdem	neither of those compiler steps should do either of those things.
14:04	sandbags0	yep, removing aot didn't help things
14:04	technomancy	arrdem: it's a bug within hotspot
14:04	arrdem	technomancy: heaven help us all...\
14:04	sandbags0	okay so tools.trace looks useful (something like spy/p) but means i have to instrument all my code to figure out where the NPE Is being raised
14:04	catern	dbasch: yes
14:05	dbasch	catern: check the nrepl-server buffer
14:05	catern	dbasch: thaaaaaaaaaank you
14:05	sandbags0	i'm struggling to understand how all the stack information is being lost bar the deepest point
14:06	justin_smith	sandbags0: JIT scrambles the call stack as it optimizes (or at least can do so)
14:07	sandbags0	hrmm... okay yes, thanks, that makes sense.
14:07	sandbags0	so i guess my next step is turning off the jit compiler
14:08	arrdem	AFAIK the JVM requires that stack trace frames be reported in JVM model order no mater what the runtime does to optimize code, failure to do so being a major JVM bug. More likely lazy sequence evaluation makes the stack appear out of order.
14:08	arrdem	s/being/is a/g
14:09	sandbags0	hrmm... seems -Xnojit is no longer with us
14:11	sandbags0	so i found something suggesting -Djava.compiler=NONE will turn off the JIT compiler, not sure how up to date that is
14:12	sandbags0	but i'm still getting "NullPointerException clojure.lang.Numbers.ops (Numbers.java:961)"
14:12	sandbags0	starting to think binary searching with spy/p might have been quicker!
14:12	sandbags0	i struggle with the notion that Clojure can't actually deliver a useful stack trace in the REPL
14:15	dbasch	sandbags0: maybe you’re inc’ing nil or something like that? http://java.dzone.com/articles/reading-clojure-stacktraces
14:15	dbasch	,(inc nil)
14:15	clojurebot	#<NullPointerException java.lang.NullPointerException>
14:15	arrdem	,(doc fnin)
14:15	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
14:15	sandbags0	dbasch: yes, i could be doing anything
14:15	dbasch	&(inc nil)
14:15	lazybot	java.lang.NullPointerException
14:15	arrdem	,(doc fnil)
14:15	clojurebot	"([f x] [f x y] [f x y z]); Takes a function f, and returns a function that calls f, replacing a nil first argument to f with the supplied value x. Higher arity versions can replace arguments in the second and third positions (y, z). Note that the function f can take any number of arguments, not just the one(s) being nil-patched."
14:15	j0ni	dbasch: so i have tried this in my project.clj: [capacitor "0.2.2" :exclusions [org.clojure/core.async]]
14:15	sandbags0	the point is, without some implicated clojure code I am left to analyse my entire code path
14:15	j0ni	it doesn't work though - did i do it right?
14:16	arrdem	sandbags0: er... or you could paste a stacktrace and get some help.
14:16	sandbags0	arrdem: i pasted it above
14:16	sandbags0	Numbers.java:961
14:16	sandbags0	that's the entire output in the REPL
14:16	AWizzArd	I would like to combine two leiningen calls: 1. lein jar 2. lein localrepo install target/foo-0.1.0.jar tld.expamle/foo 0.1.0
14:16	dbasch	j0ni: looks right to me, but you may want to ask someone who’s more familiar with how lein deals with dependencies
14:17	AWizzArd	Can this be done with actually calling Leiningen just a single time, and let the same jvm do both jobs?
14:17	arrdem	sandbags0: that single line is worthless. paste (or just read) the whole thing. If that's all the trace that you're getting printed, try (clojure.stacktrace/print-stacktrace *e) at the repl after you replicate the exception.
14:18	gfredericks	AWizzArd: `lein do` can combine commands
14:18	arrdem	*e is a dynamic variable that the last top level exception gets bound to.
14:18	j0ni	dbasch: thanks, i guess that would be technomancy
14:18	sandbags0	arrdem: yep that's all i got, i'll try your trick, thanks
14:18	AWizzArd	gfredericks: will try that, thanks
14:19	technomancy	j0ni: without any context, that looks right to me
14:19	sandbags0	arrdem: marvellous! thank you
14:20	aphyr	What's the right way to establish a binding thread context in a future?
14:20	aphyr	,(future (eval '(do (ns foo) (prn ns))))
14:20	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: no threads please>
14:20	sandbags0	i've no idea why the REPL is hiding everything but the top line but that gives me the full-trace, thanks
14:20	arrdem	sandbags0: sane defaults or something, the presumption being that you know how to get the whole thing.
14:20	justin_smith	sandbags0: OK after the error, try (clojure.repl/pst)
14:21	AWizzArd	gfredericks: works well, thanks for the tip.
14:21	sandbags0	justin_smith: better yet!
14:21	justin_smith	it could be you don't have full stack traces turned on (and thus you would have to ask for them)
14:21	sandbags0	ah, i didn't realise this was something one would need to turn on
14:21	sandbags0	perhaps for those who are telepathic with the machine a stack trace is unnecessary ;-)
14:21	justin_smith	usually nrepl will (use 'clojure.repl) such that (pst) suffices
14:22	sandbags0	justin_smith: yep, that does work
14:25	sandbags0	i am now wishing i hadn't lifted prismatic/schema out of this code :)
14:25	arrdem	sandbags0: type signatures, type checking assertions and core.typed are all pretty nice ;P
14:27	technomancy	sandbags0: it's super annoying that you don't get stack traces, and I would like to fix it in a future version
14:27	arrdem	technomancy: sometimes I get a popup stack trace buffer. sometimes. which is more annoying than all the time.
14:28	technomancy	arrdem: in cider you mean?
14:28	arrdem	yarp
14:28	technomancy	I was thinking of reply
14:28	sandbags0	technomancy: now that i know the (pst) trick it's not so bad, but it's a bit startling to be told (as it seemed) "There was an error somewhere fucknutz, take your best shot as to where"
14:28	sandbags0	certainly at a REPL
14:28	technomancy	sandbags0: nah the pst trick is kinda crap
14:28	technomancy	since you have to re-use every time you change namespaces
14:28	technomancy	hell of tedious
14:28	sandbags0	O_o
14:29	sandbags0	do Rich & co just write perfect code first time often enough that error handling isn't an issue?
14:30	technomancy	oh man do not get me started on the core team's ideas about usability
14:30	gfredericks	technomancy: that's more due to the problem of having util stuff across namespaces at all
14:30	arrdem	technomancy: I just read the namespace/var code.. you were right about strictly non-hierarchical. I was kinda surprised.
14:30	sandbags0	heh... sorry... won't poke the bear :)
14:30	technomancy	can basically be summed up with "usability is hard, so why bother trying?"
14:30	technomancy	gfredericks: that's why you need nrepl-discover
14:30	dbasch	technomancy: it’s surprisng how many hard-core tech people think that way, including the bitcoin team and the old linux devs
14:30	gfredericks	technomancy: oh man do not get me started on the leiningen team's ideas about doing things
14:31	gfredericks	they always involve writing emacs libraries
14:31	technomancy	sandbags0: context: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/799
14:31	arrdem	(inc gfredericks)
14:31	lazybot	⇒ 66
14:31	sandbags0	well i guess this is always a problem when you have a "core team"
14:31	sandbags0	they'll have the shit they care about and everything else tends to wither
14:31	trptcolin	aphyr: (future-call (bound-fn [] #(do (ns foo) (prn ns)))) is one way to do it iiuc
14:31	technomancy	gfredericks: vim libraries too, yo
14:31	sandbags0	at least it's a Lisp so you can work around it somewhat
14:31	sandbags0	technomancy: ta
14:31	gfredericks	sandbags0: yeah that
14:32	technomancy	sandbags0: y'know, if you get a commit into lein, you get a free sticker
14:32	technomancy	just sayin'
14:32	sandbags0	technomancy: is there any qwality control operating around accepting commits?
14:33	technomancy	sandbags0: well if you fix #799 I'll make it three stickers
14:33	sandbags0	i look forward to claiming my stickers in 2029 or thereabouts
14:33	sandbags0	i'm still pretty much a clojure new bug
14:34	amalloy	sandbags0: i can confirm that there is not: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/pull/688
14:34	technomancy	amalloy: good times!
14:34	sandbags0	heh
14:34	amalloy	(that was a joke pull request i sent, which was insta-merged)
14:34	amalloy	USAGE: lein repeat 5 do deps, clean, compile, uberjar
14:34	sandbags0	technomancy: that discussion ended in May 2013
14:35	sandbags0	given the circs today i guess that's not encouraging
14:36	technomancy	sandbags0: well, lein is pretty stable; there hasn't been all that much going on since then
14:37	technomancy	sandbags0: and it's not surprising that a fix that involves two external libs would take longer to address than something that's solely in lein
14:37	sandbags0	i didn't so much mean it as a failure of lein
14:37	sandbags0	which i perceive it isn't
14:37	sandbags0	as... people talking about this in May 2013, still a problem in June 2014
14:37	aphyr	trptcolin: good call
14:38	sandbags0	suggestive of still being a problem come July 2015
14:39	technomancy	not if you fix it =D
14:39	sandbags0	ha, i might understand it come July 2015
14:42	arrdem	technomancy: pardon my poking, but are there specific usability concerns you do have with the core? just curious.
14:45	weavejester	Out of curiosity, what core?
14:50	mdrogalis	Is it that time of the week again to complain about Clojure's error messages?
14:50	mdrogalis	Sorry I'm late!
14:50	arrdem	mdrogalis: sandbags0 started it
14:51	sandbags0	no no i think the core team started it :-P
14:52	technomancy	~gentlemen
14:52	clojurebot	You can't fight in here. This is the war room.
14:52	sandbags0	ha
14:52	mdrogalis	Hahah
14:53	weavejester	Has anyone heard of a construct like multimethods, but one that merges matching results, rather than returning just one
14:53	mdrogalis	That's an interesting idea.
14:53	weavejester	i.e. multimethods will return the most specific match
14:54	weavejester	but what if you had something that merged the results via a custom function
14:54	technomancy	sandbags0: anyway, it looks like this works in the current lein release: :repl-options {:caught clojure.repl/pst}
14:54	weavejester	Like ‘some’
14:54	tbaldridge	sandbags0: I think it's worth pointing out that the "core team" differs drastically in what they use. Some emacs, some use nrepl many don't, etc. But none of that is maintained by "the core".
14:55	tbaldridge	technomancy: is there anything stopping lein/nrepl from having a different default for stacktraces?
14:55	technomancy	nope, literally working on it right now
14:56	technomancy	my comments were more about the contents of the stack traces
14:56	tbaldridge	sandbags0: and if you want to go completely off the deep end, you can use stuff like this: https://github.com/AvisoNovate/pretty :-)
14:57	mdrogalis	So I actually use that lib, and it's kind of awesome sometimes.
14:57	arrdem	tbaldridge: ooh nice
14:58	weavejester	I guess what I’m looking for is a more general form of polymorphism…
14:58	technomancy	and the documentation
14:59	mdrogalis	weavejester: Sort of more general, but also more specific in the sense that results have to be associative.
14:59	mdrogalis	weavejester: side-effect order would also be another constraint.
14:59	tbaldridge	weavejester: yeah, I've seen a need for that, where the match value is a pattern, and the multi method runs all matches
15:00	weavejester	mdrogalis: Yeah, the order would matter, but it sometimes does with multimethods as well. Hence prefer-method
15:00	tbaldridge	multimethods aren't that complex, should be possible to write something like this. It'd basically be O(n) though
15:00	sandbags0	technomancy: nice!
15:01	mdrogalis	weavejester: That's a good point.
15:01	weavejester	tbaldridge: Yes, though I don’t think it would necessarily be O(n). You’d just need to run it through the ancestors of the dispatch value.
15:01	technomancy	sandbags0: unfortunately getting it in by default has some issues around messing with *1 and friends
15:01	technomancy	so I think the best we can do is make it easy to enable
15:01	weavejester	So you take the ancestors of each dispatch value, run the function for each one, and then apply a combining function.
15:01	weavejester	For multimethods this would just be the most specific dispatch.
15:02	tbaldridge	weavejester: ah! I see. If the multimethod has ASeq, ISeq and Cons you wan't all three to run, but not IPersistentVector.
15:02	tbaldridge	*want
15:02	weavejester	But you could have “every?” for predicates, so you could add new rules that would narrow the focus
15:04	weavejester	tbaldridge: Well, consider a keyword like ::natural, that derives from ::integer and ::positive. You’d want both ::integer and ::positive to run, and then their results combined together with “and”
15:04	tbaldridge	right
15:04	weavejester	With a multimethod, you choose one. But if we add a combine function, we can extend functionality without overriding existing rules
15:04	tbaldridge	OOP FTW!!!
15:05	tbaldridge	clojurebot: OOP
15:05	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
15:05	weavejester	Haha :)
15:05	tbaldridge	that's basically what you're asking for, super(foo)
15:05	weavejester	Yeah, kinda. But in OOP you manually add the super
15:06	weavejester	return super(x) && pos?(x)
15:06	weavejester	So each class is responsible for combining the result
15:06	clojurebot	Roger.
15:09	weavejester	I guess I’m wondering if this multi-multimethod idea has been done in another language
15:10	weavejester	If just so I can get a better name for it ;)
15:12	bbloom_	weavejester: sorry, i'm a bit late to the chat, but i think i can help
15:12	weavejester	bbloom_: I welcome any help :)
15:12	bbloom_	you're saying you have some dispatch and want to return all possible matches
15:12	bbloom_	yes?
15:12	clojurebot	yes isn't is
15:12	bbloom_	do you need to execute all possible matches?
15:12	bbloom_	and in any particular order?
15:14	weavejester	Hm, in the simplest case, yes. In theory there are ways of discarding a result based on the dispatch vaue
15:14	weavejester	Yes, so consider a predicate multimethod
15:15	weavejester	For ::integer it returns true if a value is an integer
15:15	weavejester	For ::above-one it returns true if a value if above one
15:15	dbasch	~oop
15:15	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
15:15	bbloom_	yeah, so "decomplecting" dispatch and evaluation, you need a multi-result on dispatch, then some combining function, then you can evaluate that
15:15	weavejester	So then I derive ::natural from ::integer and ::above-one
15:16	weavejester	Yeah, essentially… (combine-f (map multi-f (ancestors dispatch-val)))
15:16	bbloom_	whenever you have multiple results, you can think about it as ambiguity
15:16	bbloom_	and you can resolve ambiguity by lifting in to a domain where it's explicitly ambiguous
15:16	weavejester	Not sure I follow that
15:17	bbloom_	um... hmm how to explain
15:17	weavejester	With normal multimethods, the choice is simply “choose the most specific dispatch”
15:17	bbloom_	instead of saying you're returning multiple results, you return one result with multiple values in it
15:18	weavejester	Yes… multiple values combined by some function. So you’d have a dispatch-fn and a combine-fn
15:18	bbloom_	yup
15:18	bbloom_	do you have a particular use case in mind?
15:19	bbloom_	the fundamental issue w/ predicate dispatch is one of ambiguity... you can't tell who to dispatch to if you don't have proof of logical implication... but that's when you want only a "most specific" method to match
15:19	bbloom_	i'm curious if you need a combining function that respects the lattice for matches... that is you need to combine such that the arguments to the combining function are in some order with respect to what a single-result dispatch would have produced
15:20	bbloom_	or if combining happens on a set
15:20	bbloom_	w/o order
15:20	weavejester	Yeah, I have two use-cases in mind. One would be a predicate multimethod, i.e. the combine-fn would be #(apply and %) or (every? identity %) I guess.
15:21	weavejester	The other would expect a collection to be returned, and concatenate the collections, so the combine function would be concat
15:21	bbloom_	by every? identity, you mean you want to check if the logical conjunction of all the methods is true?
15:21	bbloom_	have you considered grammars?
15:21	weavejester	Grammars?
15:21	bbloom_	so grammars are basically what you want for the first thing
15:22	bbloom_	for the second thing, you need to worry about order
15:22	bbloom_	people think of grammars as being for parsing
15:22	bbloom_	but that's selling them short!
15:22	bbloom_	a grammar production can be interpreted as a predicate
15:23	weavejester	Oh, such as “is this syntax correct”?
15:23	weavejester	In the most common case of parsers
15:23	bbloom_	yeah, basically "does this structure satisfy this grammar production"
15:23	bbloom_	you can use gramamrs on anything, not just text
15:23	bbloom_	and grammars can compose nicely
15:24	bbloom_	so if you're trying to test a logical disjunction, you can just union grammars... or a logical conjunction, you can just intersect grammars
15:24	gfredericks	clojurebot: bbloom is a fount of things you didn't know you didn't know
15:24	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
15:25	bbloom_	the concat case is a lot more alien though...
15:25	weavejester	bbloom_: Do you have any links for further reading?
15:25	hiredman	it also sounds similar to logic programming, e.g. getting a collection of results back
15:25	bbloom_	hiredman: yup, hence mention of ambiguity
15:26	weavejester	Yeah. It’s not so much a concat as a set merge
15:26	bbloom_	weavejester: i've had a hard time finding good research on grammars for things other than parsing
15:26	weavejester	union rather
15:27	bbloom_	weavejester: you can search for the words "union" and "intersection" with respect to grammars
15:27	weavejester	I was experimenting with a system for representing realtime system state over a network
15:28	bbloom_	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Context-free_language talks about stuff like compllement, intersection, difference
15:28	bbloom_	words suggestive of sets ;-)
15:28	weavejester	Essentially pulling ideas from datomic and representing the current state as a set of [e a v] triples, with an addition time component
15:28	dbasch	bbloom_: I know of someone who used context-free grammars to test circuit designs
15:28	bbloom_	dbasch: awesome
15:29	weavejester	I guess I have two broad goals
15:29	bbloom_	hmmm CFG are closed under union, but not complement, intersection, or difference
15:29	bbloom_	bummer :-P
15:30	weavejester	determine whether a message is valid given a current state, e.g. (valid? state msg) -> bool
15:30	weavejester	And to work out the consequences, or reactions to a message
15:30	weavejester	(reactions state msg) -> msg
15:30	weavejester	I mean -> [msg]
15:30	hiredman	so, like, a rules system?
15:30	weavejester	Yeah
15:31	bbloom_	yeah, so validation systems are deeply related to grammars too
15:31	bbloom_	you've got some value and you need to analyze it to see if it satisfies some requirements
15:31	hiredman	https://twitter.com/aphyr/status/474627972641480704
15:32	weavejester	If a rule is a triple, [e a v], e.g. [:fred :age 30], and a state is a map {[e a v] -> t}
15:32	weavejester	Or just a set #{[e a v t]}
15:33	weavejester	Then I guess I both want to check if a rule can be added to the state - validation
15:33	weavejester	And check what the effect of that rule will be
15:33	weavejester	valid? :: state rule -> bool
15:33	aphyr	hiredman: pretty mad tbh
15:34	weavejester	reactions :: state rule -> [rule]
15:34	bbloom_	aphyr: what patch are you waiting on?
15:34	aphyr	dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1415
15:34	aphyr	like I spent a full week writing this patch and providing extensive benchmarks
15:34	aphyr	literally doubles performance
15:34	aphyr	for json parsing
15:35	aphyr	like this close to just forking Clojure into a real project on github and accepting community PRs
15:35	aphyr	cuz jira and fighting git are taking up the bulk of my time
15:36	bbloom_	jira is a nightmare :-/
15:36	aphyr	yeah, I've also got low confidence that any of this work will pay off in a merge
15:36	aphyr	like, unclear whether I should put in another N hours if it's just gonna go round in circles
15:38	bbloom_	i mean, it looks like a non-trivial patch & alex seems like he's being pretty cooperative... what's the real problem here? that it's not merged yet?
15:39	Viesti	I'm using postwalk to transform a json structure with dots in keys (mongodb doesn't like those) and it seems that postwalk is slow, is there a faster alternative, maybe transients?
15:39	bbloom_	weavejester: have you seen daedalus? and bloom/bud ?
15:40	bbloom_	weavejester: it's aimed at distributed use cases, but there's some interesting stuff in there for logic rules & communicative operations
15:40	weavejester	bbloom_: They don’t ring a bell
15:40	bbloom_	might be worth studying
15:40	bbloom_	http://www.bloom-lang.net/
15:42	bbloom_	but i guess that incorporates time, which you don't really care about yet... right?
15:42	weavejester	I do have a time component
15:42	bbloom_	hm
15:43	weavejester	Essentially I keep the state as {[e a v] t}
15:43	j0ni	technomancy: the rest of the project.clj is here https://gist.github.com/j0ni/b173f407fc30e41f05d3
15:43	bbloom_	yeah, def check out the paper on deadalus
15:43	weavejester	That way I can calculate continuous functions and expiry
15:43	bbloom_	maybe cemerick have some ideas from the CRDT world too
15:43	weavejester	Where is the daedalus paper?
15:44	weavejester	Oh, I think I’ve found i
15:44	weavejester	it
15:44	weavejester	I was assuming it was Clojure at first
15:44	bbloom_	http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/2009/EECS-2009-173.html
15:44	bbloom_	i spelled it wrong
15:44	bbloom_	dedalus is right
15:45	j0ni	technomancy: let me know if there's some debugging activity that might help figure out what up
15:45	cemerick	bbloom_: long scrollback, it seems. What's the question? Ways to represent time in a distributed fashion?
15:45	weavejester	Essentially I have a system that takes events: [:assert/:revoke e a v t] and produces a state {[e a v] t} plus some indexes
15:45	bbloom_	cemerick: weavejester is exploring validation of states & transitions, i think
15:46	weavejester	cemerick: Yeah, essentially. A way of representing a current state that can be distributed across a network.
15:47	aphyr	bbloom_: yeah, alex is doing the right thing, it's just a ton of work is all
15:47	aphyr	I forked clojure internally and that solved the problem
15:47	bbloom_	aphyr: it sucks that it's so slow, but ... yeah that's what i was gonna say: you can always run your own branch while you "wait"
15:47	aphyr	after a full week's work I got frustrated and didn't want to do any more
15:47	bbloom_	to me, the problem is that it's such a pain in the ass to fork & manage your own artifacts
15:47	weavejester	I’m just considering how to manage validations, i.e. is an event for a particular state valid, and reactions, i.e. what are the consequences of an event
15:48	bbloom_	which is a problem w/ a lot more than just clojure
15:48	bbloom_	basically everything
15:48	aphyr	absolutely agree, managing artifacts is a PITA, but less than jira
15:48	bbloom_	hence the desire to just run off the latest version from the primary maintainer
15:48	hiredman	sonian ran its own fork of clojure for a while, that may also have been keyword related
15:48	aphyr	And like N people in sidechannels have told me they'd support a fork on github
15:48	cemerick	weavejester: bbloom_ mentioned bloom/bud, and that's definitely interesting to tinker with; a Clojure impl would be pretty killer, but I've never investigated daedalus seriously
15:48	aphyr	I wanna do it, but tracking upstream is a timesink I don't want to deal with
15:50	tbaldridge	although tracking upstream isn't so bad on a project with as few commits as Clojure has.
15:50	tbaldridge	perhaps once the two diverged enough
15:50	cemerick	weavejester: CRDTs certainly fit the bill as well, but that's not necessarily saying much. The hardest part is in reconciling the semantics you care about with the axiomatic requirements of CRDTs/semilattices. (ACI, etc)
15:51	cemerick	weavejester: and unless you're happy to accept LWW, then you need a more subtle notion of time than wall clocks, etc
15:51	cemerick	or, even then, given skew, etc.
15:51	weavejester	LWW or LVW?
15:52	cemerick	weavejester: Last Writer Wins; LVW?
15:52	weavejester	Oh, last value wins
15:53	weavejester	I couldn’t work out the middle w :)
15:53	weavejester	I’m essentially going for a client/server model, with the server maintaining the canonical state, and the clients being somewhat lossy
15:53	weavejester	So time is server-time
15:54	weavejester	A client connects, gets the approx. server time, then a dump of the current state {[e a v] t}
15:54	cemerick	weavejester: so the "clients" are retaining at least some portion of the data model, rather than making particular queries
15:55	cemerick	ah, sure
15:55	weavejester	Yep. The whole thing, essentially.
15:55	weavejester	Every so often the server will pass them the whole thing so they don’t deviate too much.
15:56	weavejester	But usually they’ll accept [o e a v t] messages, where o is the operation, :assert or :revoke
15:56	weavejester	This produces a state {[e a v] t}
15:57	cemerick	weavejester: Well, that's so close to replication, you might as well go all the way. :-P
15:57	weavejester	It essentially is replication
15:58	weavejester	Where it gets fuzzy is that I have a function
15:58	weavejester	(tick state time) -> state
15:58	cemerick	right, with pessimistic deltas occasionally, etc
15:59	cemerick	everyone wants a pleasant distributed state machine :-)
15:59	weavejester	I also have functions:
15:59	weavejester	(valid? state event) -> bool
15:59	weavejester	(commit state event) -> state
15:59	technomancy	j0ni: try `lein deps :tree`
15:59	weavejester	(react state event) -> [event]
16:00	cemerick	weavejester: you have multiple concurrent actors touching shared data?
16:01	weavejester	cemerick: Yes, but the state can only be changed by commiting an event
16:01	hiredman	have you considered just implementing raft?
16:01	weavejester	Raft?
16:01	hiredman	the concensus algorithm
16:02	weavejester	Ah, found it
16:02	hiredman	you have a leader replicating a log of operations to followers, and when a quorum of followers have and operation it is commited
16:02	cemerick	weavejester: Well, you have two choices. You can either have a real consensus mechanism (like paxos/zk/raft) mediate those concurrent changes, or you can change the model to think in terms of convergent states as opposed to proposal->commit
16:04	cemerick	In the latter, a "commit" of a valid state can be seen as simply marking a particular causal history.
16:04	weavejester	I was thinking just implementing a very naive first-one-wins approach for concurrent changes
16:05	hiredman	sure, but you want to replicate the changes?
16:05	weavejester	Yep
16:06	mordocai	Anyone know if the latest (think it was released today?) cider might be broken? I hadn't tried to use it in awhile. Relevant data on my setup here: http://pastebin.com/VbzZjgyX
16:06	hiredman	so a lot of concensus algorithms work on the baisis of replicating logs of operations and once a quorum has the logs, and advance the known commited operations
16:07	hiredman	and once an operation is commited it can be applied to whatever state is being maintained in concensus
16:08	weavejester	hiredman: Yes. In this case the server takes an incoming message from a client, checks if it’s valid, relays it to all the clients and updates the internal state.
16:08	weavejester	At regular intervals, the clients get the full state from the server, correcting any drift
16:08	hiredman	it may be just because I have been fiddling with raft, but that sounds a lot like it
16:09	weavejester	Raft seems more concerned with correctness than I am, reading through it
16:09	hiredman	if you don't care about stale reads, that sounds a lot like how, uh, that one implmentation of raft did
16:10	hiredman	weavejester: if you don't use the raft protocol to do reads of the state, then it sounds even more similar
16:10	hiredman	so you can tolerate "stale" reads
16:10	weavejester	Raft appears to be a protocol to manage distributed state, but in my case I have a single authority
16:11	hiredman	sure
16:14	cminus1	ls
16:14	lazybot	bin boot dev etc lib opt root srv usr var
16:25	dawkirst	hi, why does (doseq [ item '((1 2) [3 4] "D")] (prn item)) not work without the '?
16:26	gfredericks	dawkirst: it's a function call otherwise
16:26	gfredericks	while you're just trying to represent a list
16:26	justin_smith	(1 2) is not a function
16:27	dawkirst	ok got it. so if I had a function that returned a list, I'd just call it there right?
16:27	amalloy	justin_smith: well, 1 is not a function
16:27	justin_smith	that too
16:27	stompyj	1, in fact, is the lonliest number
16:28	stompyj	(inc stompyj)
16:28	lazybot	You can't adjust your own karma.
16:28	stompyj	NOOOOO
16:28	gfredericks	(dec stompyj)
16:28	lazybot	⇒ 0
16:28	gfredericks	FTFY
16:28	stompyj	HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
16:28	arrdem	hahahaa
16:28	stompyj	(inc gfredericks)
16:28	lazybot	⇒ 67
16:28	stompyj	well played
16:29	dbasch	dawkirst: yes, the second argument must be a seqable thing
16:29	amalloy	guys let's make (dec stompyj) a running joke. maybe people will finally hate him more than they hate so
16:30	dawkirst	thanks
16:30	gfredericks	I didn't even realizez so was a nick
16:30	amalloy	i don't know what the deal is with so either
16:30	arrdem	amalloy: the hatred of so is without bound
16:30	amalloy	$karma so
16:30	lazybot	so has karma -27.
16:31	arrdem	stompyj has some catching up to do
16:33	stompyj	lol
16:35	stompyj	$karma bitemyapp
16:35	lazybot	bitemyapp has karma 16.
16:35	stompyj	interesting. What did so do to get ranked lower then the guy who has a clojure stacktrace as his twitter profile image
16:35	justin_smith	amalloy: which raises an old curiousity - has anyone made a language that was so pedantically mathematical that a number N treated as the function that compounds its argument N times?
16:36	justin_smith	stompyj: the highlighting is so so so annoying, if you have a client that highlights usernames
16:36	stompyj	ohhhhhhhhhh
16:36	stompyj	wow
16:36	amalloy	well, i'd argue that's your client's fault
16:36	arrdem	justin_smith speaks for the erc-hl-nicks users
16:37	amalloy	justin_smith: isn't that exactly church encoding?
16:37	justin_smith	exactly, but what languages actually treat numbers that way?
16:38	amalloy	none that anyone uses
16:38	TimMc	justin_smith: I think some theorem provers do that, at least on the surface.
16:38	justin_smith	I figured
16:38	arrdem	justin_smith: smalltalk used church numerals.
16:38	justin_smith	I know. let's make Number implement IFn
16:38	TimMc	Peano numerals
16:38	justin_smith	smalltalk? ahh, right 5.do(...) or whatever
16:39	justin_smith	but does smalltalk also say that 5.5() is 25?
16:39	dbasch	in python you could multiply random things
16:39	justin_smith	right
16:39	dbasch	3 * long should give you a longlonglong
16:40	dbasch	as a type
16:40	justin_smith	nice
16:40	justin_smith	lol
16:40	dbasch	2 * float = double
16:41	arrdem	dbasch: that's just an issue of floating point error and single precision floats being silly..
16:42	gfredericks	,Float/MAX_VALUE
16:42	clojurebot	3.4028235E38
16:42	justin_smith	String / 2 = utf8 maybe?
16:42	gfredericks	,Double/MAX_VALUE
16:42	clojurebot	1.7976931348623157E308
16:42	dbasch	arrdem: I mean, you can come up with semantics for multiplying any type by a number
16:42	justin_smith	no, never mind
16:42	gfredericks	utf4
16:42	gfredericks	hey can we compress arbitrary data like this
16:42	justin_smith	well jvm uses utf16
16:42	dbasch	e.g. 3 * Person = Trio
16:43	dbasch	at least in the SFW version
16:43	arrdem	dbasch: you can _define_ whatever you want, that doesn't mean you've granted it general meaning
16:44	amalloy	,(/ String Character)
16:44	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Class cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
16:45	gfredericks	I define multiplying a type by a number to be the identity function
16:46	amalloy	((* 5 String) :foo) => :foo
16:46	dbasch	why shouldn’t (n x) be the same as (repeat n x)?
16:46	TimMc	gfredericks: I just discovered today that Java doesn't support UTF-7 by default.
16:47	gfredericks	TimMc: man I sure hope that doesn't exist
16:47	TimMc	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-7
16:47	gfredericks	aw crap
16:47	gfredericks	you let me down man
16:47	TimMc	Dashing your hopes and dreams since 2011.
16:47	dbasch	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-9
16:47	justin_smith	gfredericks: like so many terrible vile things, it is rooted in email
16:48	TimMc	dbasch: Ha!
16:48	justin_smith	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-ℇ
16:48	ergh	i'm trying to learn core.async; is there a way to say "give me everything that currently in the channel (as a vector?) and if there's nothing, give me nothing (empty vector), don't block"? am i trying to do something you're not supposed to?
16:48	TimMc	dbasch: Second paragraph is great.
16:48	gfredericks	I was thinking the other day about a number system that uses an increasing radix
16:48	gfredericks	the first digit is binary, the second ternary, etc
16:48	TimMc	For other horrifying things that actually do exist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-EBCDIC
16:48	technomancy	$kill
16:48	lazybot	KILL IT WITH FIRE!
16:49	TimMc	gfredericks: Have you heard of balanced ternary?
16:49	gfredericks	maaaaaybe
16:49	weavejester	ergh: It does sound like you might be using core.async incorrectly
16:49	gfredericks	It sounds like it was interesting when I knew about it
16:50	weavejester	ergh: What’s your end goal?
16:50	TimMc	It's like having a set of ternary weights you can place on either side of a scale.
16:50	dbasch	TimMc: here, I improved it :P http://shrturl.co/I01U2
16:50	TimMc	dbasch: How so?
16:50	gfredericks	oh this doesn't sound familiar actually
16:50	ergh	weavejester: im making a game and i want to collect all the commands that happened during a frame in the interface module and then pass those to the gameplay code for processing
16:51	dbasch	TimMc: removed the April fools part
16:51	TimMc	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_ternary
16:52	justin_smith	ergh: do you have some synchronization requiring that the messages wait and get chunked in a vector rather than showing up as produced?
16:52	justin_smith	ergh: why not put that on the receiver end via a queue, and just append the queue from core.async in that case?
16:52	Hodapp	number system with base phi is also kind of interesting.
16:52	ergh	justin_smith: hm, in every frame, i want to process all events that came in till then
16:52	amalloy	gfredericks: balanced ternary is neat
16:52	justin_smith	java.util.concurrent.SynchronizedQueue
16:53	Hodapp	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio_base
16:53	tbaldridge	ergh: use alts! in a loop with a default
16:53	justin_smith	ergh: read the queue in the context where "frames" are a thing, let async things be async
16:53	tbaldridge	ergh: if you hand alts! a :default, then it will never block
16:53	TimMc	gfredericks: Increasing radix... so 123 would be 14^2 + 23^1 + 3*2^0?
16:54	tbaldridge	ergh: https://clojure.github.io/core.async/#clojure.core.async/alts!
16:54	amalloy	TimMc: you can't use 3 in the 0s position, if the radix is 2
16:55	ergh	tbaldridge: sounds like what i was looking for. thanks
16:55	amalloy	actually it should be radix 1, permitting only a 0 as the lowest digit
16:56	TimMc	amalloy: Nonsense. 30-base-2 is 6 in decimal.
16:56	augustl	anyone got some pure java key/value databases to recommend?
16:56	TimMc	augustl: Why pure Java, does it need to run in the same process as your app?
16:56	gfredericks	amalloy: TimMc: right, 123 is not allowed
16:56	dbasch	augustl: you mean local, distributed, in process?
16:57	augustl	TimMc: yeah that would be a plus
16:57	augustl	dbasch: in process
16:57	TimMc	because otherwise you could just use a Java driver
16:57	amalloy	gfredericks: isn't this increasing-radix like...non-distinct? there are multiple ways to represent the same number
16:57	gfredericks	amalloy: I thought of radix 1 in the first digit but it seemed silly
16:57	amalloy	which is problematic for number systems
16:57	gfredericks	amalloy: are you sure? even if you avoid 123?
16:57	dbasch	augustl: when I was at LinkedIn we built this https://github.com/linkedin/krati although I’m not sure what’s its current state
16:58	technomancy	augustl: berkeley db is supposed to be nice
16:58	dbasch	augustl: I know there’s a java port of leveldb, also not sure of the state
16:58	gfredericks	amalloy: oh maybe I haven't been specific enough
16:58	amalloy	i guess not. i keep forgetting how the increased radix works. i need to wriet some actual numbers down
16:58	augustl	thanks folks :) googling
16:58	TimMc	gfredericks: UTF-n is defined (but not always implemented) for n in 1 5 6 7 8 9 16 18 32
16:59	gfredericks	0,1,10,11,20,21,100,101,110,111,120,121,200...
16:59	mordocai	Anyone know if cider for emacs is broken right now? I'm having issues, exhibited here: http://pastebin.com/VbzZjgyX
16:59	augustl	hmm, berleley db is agpl
16:59	dbasch	augustl: krati is Apache 2.0
17:01	amalloy	gfredericks: what number does 111 represent?
17:01	TimMc	gfredericks: 0,1,2,3,3,4,4,5,6,8,10,11,8.... on the fly, may be wrong
17:02	TimMc	So 9 would be represented... 201
17:02	mordocai	augustl: The java edition of the berkeley db has a bsd looking license
17:02	augustl	dbasch: the docs link 404's so I guess it's not that active :)
17:02	gfredericks	amalloy: 1 + 2 + 6 = 9 I think?
17:03	mordocai	augustl: Scratch that, has a code redistribution clause
17:03	TimMc	Oh right, 23 not 33
17:03	gfredericks	yeah factorials are big in infimal
17:03	TimMc	"infimal"
17:04	kzar	Dumb question but what's the best way to install Java for Clojure on a Debian Wheezy machine?
17:04	arrdem	1) install leiningen, 2) ??? 3) become enlightened 4) profit
17:04	gfredericks	still needs java
17:05	awwaiid	kzar: I use "sudo apt-get install default-jdk"
17:05	mordocai	kzar: If you want oracle java then https://wiki.debian.org/JavaPackage. If you are fine with openjdk then apt-get install openjdk
17:05	dbasch	augustl: do you really need a k/v store for performance, or could you do with other kinds of embedded dbs?
17:05	augustl	dbasch: performance is not important :)
17:05	dbasch	augustl: then just start with sqlite or something like that
17:05	augustl	the thing I'm building is for self-hosting
17:05	TimMc	kzar: Wheezy is stable, right?
17:06	augustl	dbasch: would prefer to not have to do JNI, since that makes installing it a bit harder
17:06	awwaiid	actually, maybe kzar try "sudo apt-get install leiningen"
17:06	mordocai	TimMc: Sure is
17:06	augustl	then, suddenly.. I'll see if h2 has something :)
17:06	technomancy	awwaiid: erhm; that's not a good idea
17:06	technomancy
17:06	dbasch	augustl: h2
17:06	mordocai	awwaiid: That is an old version of leiningen kzar
17:06	awwaiid	kzar: ok, based on technomancy please ignore my previous comment :)
17:06	augustl	hopefully it has a low level key/value store so I don't have to do sql and schemas :)
17:06	awwaiid	old yes. but does it work? seems to :)
17:06	TimMc	kzar: Yeah, just grab openjdk-7-* packages.
17:06	awwaiid	maybe I'm using unstable. oh. nevermind.
17:07	kzar	It better to use oracle or openjdk? (This is on my little server.)
17:07	amalloy	i would recommend against taking leiningen from apt
17:07	kzar	I'm guessing oracle Java is going to perform better?
17:07	technomancy	nah, use openjdk
17:07	amalloy	it's millions of years old, and won't work on many modern clojure projects
17:07	mordocai	technomancy: I was curious about that as well. So openjdk works fine in all cases or only most?
17:08	amalloy	openjdk is fine always
17:08	gfredericks	why was oracle mentioned then?
17:08	dbasch	amalloy: unless you’re trying to squeeze the last bit of performance for a large cluster
17:08	dbasch	but for an individual project, sure
17:09	mordocai	I mentioned oracle in case kzar specifically wanted that since there is no package in the repositories.
17:09	augustl	h2 has something called a mvstore, http://www.h2database.com/html/mvstore.html
17:09	augustl	seems interesting to avoid sql
17:10	kzar	openjdk it is then, thanks y'all :)
17:11	gfredericks	okay I'm going to release this throw-data thing
17:11	gfredericks	who was it that wanted that
17:13	awwaiid	kzar et al -- I'm actually using a local lein, not the one in apt (despite it being installed). So yeah.
17:13	augustl	https://github.com/jankotek/mapdb looks nice
17:13	mordocai	awwaiid: Sounds like you are doing it right then :P
17:13	awwaiid	exactly!
17:15	augustl	both mapdb and h2 has a gazillion features I don't need..
17:16	dbasch	augustl: well, the filesystem is always an ok k/v store :)
17:16	augustl	dbasch: hehe :)
17:16	dbasch	only half joking
17:16	augustl	the only feature I do need is better than O(n) key lookup :)
17:16	dbasch	augustl: what are you storing?
17:17	augustl	dbasch: arbitrary bytes as both keys and values
17:17	dbasch	size of your stored blobs?
17:17	augustl	keys are small, values I'm not so sure about. Perhaps I'll have some sort of limit. But support for arbitrarily sized would be nice :)
17:18	dbasch	augustl: you can go a long way with a directory tree made of partial hashes in a decent fs, if you feel like reinventing a db
17:19	augustl	sounds like that means I have to manage lots of fun things, like hitting the max amount of dirs etc
17:19	augustl	think I'll just roll with h2, it's super stable and more than fast enough
17:20	dbasch	augustl: that’s what I would do, but I’d stick to sql unless you have a good reason not to
17:20	amalloy	augustl: have you looked at tokyocabinet? it's not java, but it's in process. at geni we used it, and wrapped it up in masai as a general byte-based kv store
17:20	augustl	yeah think I'll do that too
17:20	augustl	amalloy: got a link to that wrapper? :)
17:20	amalloy	$google clojure masai
17:20	lazybot	[ninjudd/jiraph · GitHub] https://github.com/ninjudd/jiraph
17:21	amalloy	really. fascinating
17:21	amalloy	anyway, it's https://github.com/ninjudd/masai
17:22	augustl	amalloy: thanks, will check it out
17:22	amalloy	you'd use https://github.com/ninjudd/masai/blob/develop/src/flatland/masai/tokyo.clj to create a Tokyo TB, and then the stuff in https://github.com/ninjudd/masai/blob/develop/src/flatland/masai/db.clj to operate on it
17:22	augustl	JNI scares me :S
17:22	augustl	which I assume is what it ends up using
17:23	cbp	there are some issues with selmer that only happen with the openjdk
17:23	cbp	no one knows why
17:23	cbp	openjdk + fedora
17:23	amalloy	augustl: sure. https://github.com/ninjudd/tokyocabinet
17:24	amalloy	and we did have segfaults sometimes, when we were hacking on it. i think what's out now is stable, but you do open yourself up to more problems when you use jni
17:24	cbp	https://github.com/yogthos/Selmer/issues/26
17:24	Frozenlock	I'm trying to run my clojure app on a small debian distro, but I get this error Caused by: java.net.ConnectException: Connection timed out-- at java.net.PlainSocketImpl.socketConnect(Native Method)
17:25	Frozenlock	Any ideas why I can't access the socket?
17:26	augustl	amalloy: yeah, the JVM isn't a big fan of JNI it seems
17:26	dbasch	Frozenlock: what are you connecting to? That’s not enough information
17:28	justin_smith	Frozenlock: what is getting the error - lein? your app?
17:28	justin_smith	can other apps connect?
17:28	Frozenlock	I have 2 things connecting to localhost (port 47800 and 47999) and another connecting to the network on port 47808.
17:28	Frozenlock	justin_smith: java -jar my-app
17:29	Frozenlock	I can connect with ssh and also browse the Internet from it.
17:29	justin_smith	and you know that there is someone listening on each of those ports?
17:29	dbasch	what do you see if you telnet into those ports?
17:30	Frozenlock	Well my application is the one going to listen :-/
17:30	holo	,(map str ["a" "b" "c"] ["d" "e"])
17:30	clojurebot	("ad" "be")
17:30	Frozenlock	Like if I do 'lein ring server-headless 2000'
17:31	dbasch	ok, so what do you see if you telnet into your application when it’s running?
17:31	holo	howto return ("ad" "be" "c") instead, assuming when coll is empty, it yields nil?
17:31	holo	I mean, is there an fn somewhere for this?
17:31	Frozenlock	dbasch: I can't run it, that's the problem. I get the error when trying to start it.
17:32	TimMc	holo: If you knew which coll was longest, you could use concat and repeat to fake it...
17:32	TimMc	,(map str "abc" (concat "de" (repeat "")))
17:32	clojurebot	("ad" "be" "c")
17:33	holo	TimMc, dam that was fast coding thanks!
17:33	TimMc	Is that good enough for what you need? It's not general.
17:33	holo	TimMc, I don't know yet, but it's a good starting point even if it isn't. thanks :)
17:34	holo	(inc TimMc)
17:34	lazybot	⇒ 59
17:34	ArseneRei	Would there be any reason using swap! or reset! in a for loop would not let the value persist on an atom?
17:34	{blake}	What's a "named resource" and how do I go about making a file a "named resource"?
17:34	ArseneRei	http://pastebin.com/rF4jYaeh
17:35	dbasch	Frozenlock: can you refheap the code that fails?
17:36	dbasch	ArseneRei: for is not a loop
17:36	ArseneRei	List comprehension…ah…
17:36	Frozenlock	dbasch: No, that's a uberjar application. I hoped to avoid installing lein and running my program piece by piece, by I guess I won't have a choice :-/
17:36	TimMc	holo: I almost feel like partition-all is relevant here, but I can't figure out how.
17:36	cbp	{blake}: where did you read this
17:37	dbasch	ArseneRei: almost certainly your list is not being realized
17:37	ArseneRei	dbasch: Should I use a loop/recur pattern?
17:37	arrdem	ArseneRei: doseq
17:37	dbasch	ArseneRei: it depends, what are you trying to do?
17:38	ArseneRei	dbasch: I'm writing a simplistic game loop to iterate over players, perform an action and update state.
17:38	{blake}	cbp: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.java.io/resource
17:38	jamesnvc	hello, I’ve run into an issue with compiling clojurescript on the server under immutant, and I’m wondering if I should be filing a bug to clojurescript, immutant, or if it’s something I can work around
17:38	dbasch	ArseneRei: if your atom is defined outside of your loop, you can do an infinite loop with loop/recur
17:39	dbasch	ArseneRei: that atom is inside the scope of your let, so it might as well not be an atom
17:39	{blake}	I've got an example where "(io/resource "response.xml")" returns "/home/blake/clojure/nzb/resources/response.xml", which is groovy, but I don't know how/why it came to point to the "resources" directory or how I can apply that to my current project.
17:39	ArseneRei	arrdem: I see what you mean. side-effects you want doseq.
17:39	hiredman	{blake}: n is the name of the resource, resources are loaded via classloaders
17:39	jamesnvc	When calling cljs.closure/build while running in an immutant context, cljs.js-deps/goog-resource fails to load the resources from the google-closure jar
17:39	holo	TimMc, I can't figure it out with partition-all. I never used that one before
17:39	dbasch	ArseneRei: unless you’re doing some multi-threaded stuff inside your let
17:40	cbp	{blake}: the directory resources inside your project.clj is added to your classpath. a "name" is a path into your classpath
17:40	ArseneRei	dbasch: Okay, so you're saying since it's a local variable the loop/recur pattern should be sufficient.
17:40	jamesnvc	Apparently because (ClassLoader/getSystemClassLoader) doesn’t get the right classloader here
17:40	jamesnvc	(at https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/clj/cljs/js_deps.clj#L233)
17:40	hiredman	{blake}: it is because lein automatically puts a directory in the project root named resources on the classpath (and things in that directory get packged in to jars)
17:40	dbasch	ArseneRei: if you don’t have concurrency you don’t need an atom
17:40	dbasch	ArseneRei: you could just recur with a new value
17:41	cbp	dbasch: I think a bit of mutabilty can make some algorithms much easier
17:41	jamesnvc	Using (.getContextClassLoader (Thread/currentTHread)) instead of getSytsemClassLoader works though
17:41	hiredman	{blake}: you cannot treat resources as mutable
17:41	TimMc	holo: Do you want the final call to str to be (str "c") or (str "c" "")?
17:41	hiredman	e.g. writing to a content
17:41	{blake}	cbp, hiredman Thanks...so...huh, I thought I did that...added a "resources" and re-ran.
17:41	jamesnvc	Is this an issue with clojurescript not using the right loader, or immutant doing things strangely?
17:41	hiredman	you shouldn't treat resources as being read from a file
17:41	ArseneRei	dbasch: Yeah, that makes sense. I'll remember that in the future. Thanks very much.
17:41	TimMc	I bet flatland/useful has somethign appropriate, by the way.
17:41	{blake}	hiredman, Mutable? I didn't intend to. Am I doing that somewhere?
17:42	justin_smith	{blake}: don't make a File out of a resource
17:42	hiredman	{blake}: oh, I am just looking at the clojuredocs example
17:42	justin_smith	because the resource could be in a jar
17:42	hiredman	terrible
17:42	justin_smith	get an input stream from the resource
17:42	amalloy	TimMc: it does, in fact
17:42	holo	TimMc, actually it's irrelevant :)
17:43	{blake}	justin_smith, This is just for sample purposes, to provide some data similar to what will be coming in from a SOAP call.
17:43	amalloy	nothing super-great, i guess. it'd be like (map (partial apply str) (zip "abc" "de"))
17:43	justin_smith	OK, still, use io/input-stream to get the contents, not io/file
17:43	holo	TimMc, but I guess (str "c") is more general
17:43	justin_smith	{blake}: because eventually that will matter
17:44	holo	TimMc, for ofther fns different than str
17:45	TimMc	amalloy: Do you still develop useful?
17:45	{blake}	justin_smith, this response should never see a file system. We're making a SOAP call, processing the value, passing it to some other webservice, getting the response back, pushing it back to the SOAP.
17:45	amalloy	TimMc: i haven't had a need to add anything to it recently, but it's mine and if there's anything general i want i'll put it there
17:46	justin_smith	{blake}: wait, then why does io/resource even come into question?
17:46	amalloy	most recent change was when glenjamin added docs for us
17:47	justin_smith	{blake}: my point is more that "if the thing is in your source repo, and you may every some day hypothetically make a jar, use io/resource to access it and don't assume it is a file"
17:47	justin_smith	s/every/ever
17:48	TimMc	holo: I tried to write up a quick "map-dregs" fn but it's surprisingly tricky.
17:48	holo	TimMc, I bet there is. meanwhile i'm playing with partition-all.. it's interesting, but hardly shorter than your solution
17:48	TimMc	Oh, did you get a solution that uses that?
17:48	holo	not yet but close.. it's getting big :(
17:49	holo	TimMc, is map-dregs from useful?
17:49	TimMc	Naw, I'm writing it.
17:50	holo	oh you call it dregs haha :o
17:50	amalloy	TimMc: https://www.refheap.com/d35476b87b8239ea4fb4ff3fd ?
17:50	amalloy	doesn't seem that hard to write
17:50	amalloy	so presumably i missed something
17:51	amalloy	could be shorter but i don't like repeated calls to apply
17:51	TimMc	amalloy: Does that give the same results for (map-dregs - [1 2 3] []) and (map-dregs - [] [1 2 3])?
17:52	ergh	when i have (recur) at the end of one of the branches of an if, it works. but when its at the end of one of the branches of cond-let, it says "Can only recur from tail position". why?
17:52	amalloy	sure, [-1 -2 -3] in both cases. shouldn't it?
17:52	TimMc	Oh, I see -- you filter every time instead of weeding out the empty colls.
17:52	hiredman	ergh: look at the macro expansion of the cond-let
17:53	{blake}	justin_smith, Thanks. It comes into play because I'm working on functions to operate on the structure returned, and trying to provide examples of real use. I don't have access to any of the WebService calls myself, just a "Here, this is what the data looks like" in a file.
17:53	amalloy	ergh: i can't imagine that cond-let is really what you want
17:53	ergh	heh
17:53	hiredman	ergh: cond-let isn't in core, so it is likely to be some random macro of dubious quality
17:53	amalloy	hiredman: there's one in contrib and one in useful. i can confirm they are both highly dubious
17:53	holo	TimMc, this is so cool. i'll take a couple of minutes to get it.. really awesome
17:54	hiredman	well, there you go
17:55	amalloy	TimMc: you could weed out the bad ones as a performance optimization. doesn't seem like it would change results in any interesting way
17:55	TimMc	nod
17:55	TimMc	It's just the mindset I had when I was reading your solution.
17:56	holo	TimMc naming it dregs is totally cool too :)
17:56	amalloy	yeah, https://www.refheap.com/2adba5f6c4cae810891ca981b
17:59	stain	hi - what should I call a library that is wrapping a Java library? https://github.com/stain/owlapi-clj is wrapping net.sourceforge.owlapi/owlapi-contract -- now I've used (ns owlapi-clj.core) and owlapi-clj in project.clj - but I would want to tidy up before putting it in clojars
17:59	stain	as it sounds silly to say -clj all over
18:00	stain	Note that although I work in the floor below the OWL API guy, I am not affiliated with the underlying Java project
18:01	noonian	stain: i prefer clj-owlapi to owlapi-clj, but you could always just make up a silly name that has nothing to do with owlapi :P
18:01	TimMc	amalloy: Here's what I came up with. Almost the same, of course. https://www.refheap.com/86323
18:01	TimMc	pellet :-P
18:01	TimMc	on the silly names front
18:02	noonian	lol
18:02	amalloy	right. that's the most straightforward way to write it, but the repeated calls to apply are gonna kill you performance-wise, TimMc
18:02	TimMc	amalloy: I like the removal of apply by using the inner fn.
18:02	amalloy	apply is a lot less slow than it used to be in 1.4
18:02	amalloy	but still kinda gross to call over and over
18:02	TimMc	Any thoughts on the filter vs. keep and next vs. rest?
18:02	stain	noonian: just worried people would not find it at all with a silly name.. I know that worked for cheshire (which heavily depends on jackson, which again is kind-of silly name for something to do with JSON :)
18:03	amalloy	using next is an error, because you realize one more element of the input seq than necessary
18:03	stain	noonian: but would you keep "clj" in the namespaces and clojars (e.g. maven) package name as well?
18:03	cbp	stain they can find it from your project description
18:03	amalloy	using filter instead of keep is just mildly slower, i would expect
18:03	sjl	stain: is it good
18:03	noonian	stain: yes, similar to clj-http
18:04	cbp	clo-*-jure is lame imo
18:04	sjl	if so call it "Superb Owl"
18:04	danielcompton	So clojuredocs is still on 1.3...
18:04	stain	sjl: no, it's like.. quite primitive at the moment :)
18:05	noonian	you can always change the name later in a new version, i think github will take care of linking the old project page to the new one
18:05	stain	back in the olden olden days I wrote a series of Python libraries called "forgetHTML", "forgetSQL" and "forgetSomethingelse" (I've forgotten what the last thing forgot!)
18:05	amalloy	stain: superb owl. super bowl. ye olde joke
18:05	Glenjamin	superb-owl is an awesome name
18:05	noonian	i like pellet or hooter
18:05	Glenjamin	twit (as in twit-twoo)
18:05	stain	"pellet" is already a well known OWL Reasoner
18:05	noonian	ah
18:05	nullptr	danielcompton: yeah, http://clojure.org/cheatsheet links to different sites depending on version...curious
18:05	stain	http://superb-owl.com/ hehe
18:06	TEttinger	bowl
18:06	TEttinger	bowel?
18:06	cbp	call it tootsie and have the tootsie pop owl picture in the readme
18:06	stain	TEttinger: for a sh.tty library
18:06	TEttinger	powell?
18:07	TEttinger	oh well?
18:07	stain	oh.. sh.tty -- that must be a terminal emulator written in sh!
18:07	danielcompton	nullptr: Github, Clojuredocs, Oracle
18:07	nullptr	M-x clojure-cheatsheet
18:07	Glenjamin	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fictional_owls
18:07	Glenjamin	i am surprised but delighted that that page exists
18:08	stain	well thanks for all your suggestions :)) I was mainly concerned about the "-clj" bit...
18:08	justin_smith	goddammit o rly? is not a fictional owl
18:08	stain	> Errol, an aged Great Grey Owl who serves as the family's courier. He has trouble carrying loads and is often found unconscious after collision or exhaustion.
18:09	technomancy	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_with_fraudulent_diplomas
18:09	noonian	Glenjamin: thats my go-to webpage for choosing a name in rpgs when the main character is an owl
18:09	Glenjamin	i did the same thing for famous assassins once
18:09	Frozenlock	dbasch: lein repl returns the same error: java.net.BindException: Cannot assign requested address at java.net.PlainSocketImpl.socketBind(Native Method)
18:10	justin_smith	technomancy: brb signing up my neighbor's pug for a Clojure CA
18:10	Glenjamin	he'll struggle with the code review phase
18:10	stain	http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9876199/Police-under-investigation-over-dogs-witness-statement.html
18:10	TimMc	amalloy: Hmm, point taken on next being too eager.
18:11	dbasch	Frozenlock: are you sure the port is not taken by another process?
18:11	justin_smith	"updated stack traces to include more snorting and licking"
18:11	TimMc	stain: That article begins with "However," -- I feel like I walked into the middle of a conversation.
18:11	SegFaultAX	Why does fnil have such a verbose definition?
18:12	SegFaultAX	Why not like (defn fnil* [f & rep] (fn [& args] (apply f (map #(if (nil? %1) %2 %1) args rep))))
18:12	Glenjamin	(doc fnil)
18:12	clojurebot	"([f x] [f x y] [f x y z]); Takes a function f, and returns a function that calls f, replacing a nil first argument to f with the supplied value x. Higher arity versions can replace arguments in the second and third positions (y, z). Note that the function f can take any number of arguments, not just the one(s) being nil-patched."
18:12	Glenjamin	oh, in code
18:12	Glenjamin	(source fnil)
18:13	justin_smith	SegFaultAX: see also the source for map
18:13	stain	TimMc: however, the decline of journalistic language quality is ever increasing. You should try reading. Norwegian newspapers. They don't even complete. Sentences. Like this one.
18:13	Frozenlock	dbasch: doesn't 'lein repl' take a port at random?
18:13	justin_smith	SegFaultAX: it's for performance
18:13	gfredericks	Glenjamin: a lot of variadic core fns unroll some of their arities
18:13	justin_smith	$source fnil
18:13	lazybot	fnil is http://is.gd/9Lr9Rg
18:13	gfredericks	Glenjamin: and a few of them, like fnil, do it in two dimensions
18:13	amalloy	technomancy: where's the list of animals with legitimate diplomas?
18:14	gfredericks	I guess fnil isn't actually variadic though; but it's almost variadic
18:14	justin_smith	() <- hey look, I found it
18:14	{blake}	amalloy, https://shine.yahoo.com/pets/3-dogs-college-degrees-125400686.html
18:14	SegFaultAX	justin_smith: Yea.
18:15	technomancy	amalloy: it's wikipedia, go for it
18:16	dbasch	Frozenlock: yes, but before that it tries to evaluate your :main
18:16	Frozenlock	There's no main. It's just lein repl without a project
18:17	justin_smith	ok, then just before it gives you a prompt
18:17	dbasch	Frozenlock: can you paste the output of lein repl?
18:17	dbasch	refheap?
18:17	clojurebot	https://www.refheap.com/
18:17	Frozenlock	https://www.refheap.com/86326
18:18	justin_smith	if you start the repl yourself you can easily specify a specific port to use - maybe this is also possible for "lein repl", I don't recall if I have tried
18:18	justin_smith	(start the repl yourself as in nrepl.server/start-server in your :main)
18:18	Glenjamin	lein repl :port <num>
18:18	dbasch	Frozenlock: btw, why are you running as root? Also, what does your /etc/hosts look like?
18:19	Frozenlock	dbasch: Because there's just root on this image.
18:19	brunov	Hey guys. I'm wondering, what do people use to deploy clojure apps to remote servers, typically?
18:19	justin_smith	ideally: make an uberjar and a shell script with the apropriate java options
18:19	Frozenlock	dbasch: It runs on an arm processor, I don't really mind running as root for now.
18:20	deathknight	:)
18:20	dbasch	Frozenlock: can you ping localhost?
18:20	holo	TimMc I quit trying partition-all for this for more than two colls. maybe loop/recur could do it, but i can't sort it out. thanks for your algo :D
18:20	amalloy	Frozenlock: IME "cannot assign requested port" means that all 64k ports on the machine are already assigned. check out `netstat -a`
18:20	deathknight	Is there a clojure IRC channel specifically for seeking help?
18:20	brunov	justin_smith: cool. I'm thinking of using capistrano and wanted to check here first in case there's something else I was missing.
18:20	arrdem	brunov: git with post-receive deploy scripts, or war
18:20	dbasch	holo: that would be trivial with loop/recur
18:21	brunov	arrdem: interesting idea!
18:21	dbasch	holo: you keep going while (or cur1 cur2 …)
18:21	Frozenlock	dbasch: Well sonofabitch, localhost doesn't respond
18:21	justin_smith	brunov: I guess capistrano could replace that above mentioned shell script, if you need things it provides
18:21	arrdem	Frozenlock: .... what on earth did you do to {firewall,/etc/hosts}
18:22	cbp	lol
18:22	justin_smith	the key being that building (with lein of course) does not happen on prod
18:22	kzar	Probably missing relevant line in /etc/hosts
18:22	deathknight	Quick question: If I wanted to find the value of :status in {:body {:status "test"}}, wouldnt this work? (it doesnt) -> [{{val :status} :body} args]
18:22	deathknight	it returns nil
18:22	Frozenlock	arrdem: Nothing! I just took this image and assumed it was configured. https://www.olimex.com/wiki/A10s-OLinuXino-MICRO#How_do_I_write_the_Linux_image_to_a_micro_SD_card_to_use_with_my_A10S_board.3F
18:22	deathknight	(ex: (let [{{val :status} :body} args] (println val))
18:22	Frozenlock	Obviously I was wrong
18:23	holo	dbasch :> yes, I guess the point was not use loop/recur
18:23	cbp	configured to troll
18:23	amalloy	deathknight: that would work, if args were {:body {:status "test"}}
18:23	amalloy	but i imagine args is actually [{:body {:status "test"}}]
18:23	deathknight	thats correct amalloy
18:23	deathknight	as of right now, it returns nil
18:24	Frozenlock	/etc/network/interfaces ---> #auto lo, #iface lo inet loopback
18:24	Frozenlock	facepalm
18:24	dbasch	(doc get-in)
18:24	clojurebot	"([m ks] [m ks not-found]); Returns the value in a nested associative structure, where ks is a sequence of keys. Returns nil if the key is not present, or the not-found value if supplied."
18:24	blr	brunov: you could look into pallet if you want a clojure solution (also for provisioning like chef etc)
18:24	dbasch	,(get-in {:body {:status "test"}} [:body :status])
18:24	clojurebot	"test"
18:25	Frozenlock	Sorry for wasting everyone's time :-(
18:25	dbasch	don’t worry Frozenlock. But I suggest getting a rubber duck :P
18:25	justin_smith	Frozenlock: things like that are why I so often jump to 127.0.0.1 - easy enough to remember, not as brittle as "localhost"
18:26	deathknight	clojurebot, sorry man. I just don't understand that
18:26	clojurebot	I don't understand.
18:26	stain	justin_smith: and on a rainy day, you can even get a way with 127.0.0.2
18:26	deathknight	Amalloy, how would I get the value of :status in [{:body {:status "test"}}]?
18:26	dbasch	,(get-in {:body {:status "test"}} [:body :status]) ;; deathknight
18:26	clojurebot	"test"
18:27	cbp	prolly prepend a 0 if it's in a vector
18:27	deathknight	it is a map
18:27	deathknight	just to be 100% sure, whats the command to check what data type it is?
18:27	justin_smith	sometimes -> is more readable than get-in
18:27	cbp	,(type {})
18:27	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
18:27	deathknight	it is a persistentarraymap
18:27	deathknight	confirming
18:28	cbp	justin_smith: never!!
18:28	justin_smith	,(-> {:body {:status "test"}} :body :status)
18:28	clojurebot	"test"
18:28	dbasch	,(-> [{:body {:status "test"}}] first :body :status)
18:28	clojurebot	"test"
18:28	deathknight	justin_smith, where is the input for the arg?
18:28	justin_smith	yeah, that helps too
18:28	justin_smith	(doc ->)
18:28	clojurebot	"([x & forms]); Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the second item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the second item in second form, etc."
18:29	amalloy	justin_smith: what. when would -> ever be more readable than get-in
18:29	dbasch	amalloy: I suppose if you had to do a bunch of stuff before the get-in
18:29	deathknight	(-> persistantArrayVariable :body :status) returns nil
18:29	justin_smith	amalloy: I find clearer thanks to less nesting, and being able to throw in something like first is a bonus
18:30	amalloy	dbasch: shrug (-> foo blah bar whatever (get-in [x y]))
18:33	dbasch	amalloy: yeah, I don’t have an opinion
18:33	cbp	justin_smith: (get-in [0 :a :b])
18:33	deathknight	{:body {:milestones {:status "test"}}}
18:34	arrdem	tools.analyzer uses the (-> {} :foo :bar first :baz quxx :val) format... it has its advantages, besides being gratuitous use of ->
18:34	justin_smith	cbp: doesn't work on list / seq
18:35	kzar	So I've built the nginx-clojure jar, where do I put it though? When I start nginx it stalls because it can't find the jar but the readme doesn't explain where to put it
18:36	Frozenlock	Ugh... any instances where 'java -jar uberjared.jar' doesn't run? I just get my shell prompt back
18:37	cbp	that doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't run
18:37	dbasch	kzar: it’s in the readme, in the configuration section: jvm_options "-Djava.class.path=jars/nginx-clojure-0.2.2.jar:jars/clojure-1.5.1.jar";
18:38	kzar	Right I've put those lines in the config file
18:38	kzar	dbasch: But that path looks relative jars/nginx-clojure-0.2.2.jar right?
18:38	Frozenlock	cbp: It would be running in the background but giving me the prompt back? (in this case it's not running in the background)
18:39	dbasch	kzar: that path is probably relative to /etc/nginx
18:39	cbp	Frozenlock: I have no idea what you have inside that jar but unless you have an infinite loop it gives you the prompt back
18:40	noonian	i think the example config assumes you put the jar in directory named 'jars' inside etc/nginx directory
18:40	dbasch	kzar: you could make it absolute
18:40	kzar	dbasch noonian: OK, I'll try putting them in /etc/nginx/jars/ and see what happens
18:40	kzar	1 mo
18:40	Frozenlock	cbp: I have a compojure app in it. I've ran it thousands of time and it never gave me the prompt back while it was running.
18:41	Frozenlock	When all else fails.... reboot
18:41	cbp	oh nevermind you're right
18:41	cbp	then
18:45	kzar	Hmm that didn't work
18:46	blr	technomancy: that comment in #emacs reminded me, do you have any thoughts on how to best manage security notification for project deps? Feels like this is not handled very well by any system
18:46	blr	and depending on system packages is clearly untenable, but works in terms of security
18:46	blr	pip and gems suffer from this too, I think it's kind of universal
18:47	kzar	dbasch noonian: OK changing paths to absolute /etc/nginx/jars/... worked. Is that the proper place to put them though? (Seems weird having the jars in the coonfig dir and the fact that the default relative path didn't point there makes me question it.)
18:47	ergh	does clojure have some kind of support for synchronizing its datasctructures over the network?
18:47	blr	ergh: in terms of serialisation? there's edn
18:48	justin_smith	blr: maybe a way to tag an artifact in a repo as insecure, and a lein audit command to check a given project's deps?
18:48	noonian	kzar: it's totally up to you, clojure and nginx-clojure are probably the only jars you'll need for nginx so you could put them wherever
18:49	justin_smith	we should make the command to deprecate an artifact be "lein malign <version>"
18:49	ergh	i was thinking for exampke if youre changing a datastructure on a server and a client has it's own copy of that, you'd only need to send some sort of "diff"
18:49	blr	well, there's lein-ancient, but the onus is on the developer to run it regularly, and afaik there's no distinction between a feature and a security release
18:50	justin_smith	ergh: like some kind of networked version of persistent data structures' data sharing?
18:50	ergh	yeah
18:50	justin_smith	ergh: if you used datomic for the coordinating of values, I think you would get that
18:50	blr	ergh: I think the 'quilt' project is potentially related to your query, but afaik there's not much information about it currently
18:51	justin_smith	ergh: though that is not the same as sending an update point to point
18:51	technomancy	blr: haven't really given it much thought. I think there's a security mailing list, but I don't know if they've got this use case in mind
18:51	justin_smith	maybe send an "update please" message to the peer, and send the change to datomic?
18:52	blr	technomancy: right, it feels like a big gap in every tooling ecosystem I'm familiar with.. with ruby and python you just have to keep an eye on mailing lists and hope that you catch something
18:53	blr	wish we had something as rigourous as debian's security releases
18:54	justin_smith	blr: related, someone should make an updater / package manager than manages all your package managing updaters
18:55	technomancy	blr: well debian is different because you typically don't have people employed full-time to pay attention to many systems.
18:57	blr	sure.. although maybe there's some merit to justin_smith's suggestion of being able to 'taint' a dependency, which lein could provide a warning for?
18:58	technomancy	gpg has support for revoking keys, I wonder if there's any mechanism for revoking signatures.
19:00	blr	go-lang 'solves' this by having everything on edge, pointing to master on github :P
19:00	justin_smith	since .m2 is a cache, maybe a "purge this value from the cache" model is apropriate?
19:01	technomancy	blr: http://p.hagelb.org/blam.gif
19:01	justin_smith	blr: go-lang development sounds fun
19:01	justin_smith	a real roller coaster
19:01	technomancy	for serious issues we can consider straight up clojars deletion
19:02	justin_smith	right, but remember it gets cached in everyone's .m2/
19:02	Frozenlock	blr: Are your serious?!
19:02	amalloy	if we're deleting clojars, can i hold a flamthrower?
19:02	justin_smith	which is why some way of checking for things to purge would be nice
19:02	technomancy	yeah
19:03	justin_smith	maybe friendlier to make a .m2/dont-use-these-insecure-packages-but-here-they-are-for-reference/ directory and move things there
19:04	andres-v`	requestnames,createaccount,customer_account,assign_name,create_client,toggle_ban_client,deleteclient,rqn_new,rqn_xactiontype_selected,rqn_bank_selected,rqn_book_selected,rqn_customeraccount_selected,rqn_newcustomeraccount,rqn_registernewcustomeraccount
19:08	blr	food for thought at any rate, feels like something that could be better
19:10	technomancy	blr: it's unlikely that much will happen if you don't make it happen at this point
19:11	blr	technomancy: fair enough. Do you think the idea's worth exploring?
19:11	technomancy	blr: yeah, I believe so.
19:11	technomancy	the incentives around it are kinda pathological though unfortunately
19:11	blr	in what sense?
19:11	technomancy	it takes a big bad incident to get people to actually care, at which point it's too late
19:12	blr	oh right, yeah that's always the way with security
19:14	Frozenlock	At least nobody got #=ed... I think...
19:17	stain	clojars - I just get "Invalid PGP public key" at https://clojars.org/register - my PGP key is A0FFD119 and I've tried exporting it as gpg --export -a 0xa0ffd119
19:20	justin_smith	that is a really small public key
19:20	stain	it's 597 lines in the export
19:21	justin_smith	ahh, never mind, I misread
19:21	stain	hm, I registered with an empty PGP Public key, and then went to update the profile, and it worked OK
19:21	kzar	So with nginx-clojure is the idea that you build your clojure project that includes your ring handlers to a jar and have nginx-clojure use that? (Each deploy you'd build a new jar for your project and put it in place?)
19:22	justin_smith	kzar: yeah, I think so. An uberjar that includes all your deps, of course.
19:23	justin_smith	err... wait, this is looking different
19:24	noonian	kzar: i've not used nginx-clojure and that might be what you need, but if you are just trying to serve an app with nginx i think most people just do a simple reverse proxy to an embedded java server in the clojure app. http-kit has good documentation with examples on how to do that.
19:25	justin_smith	(inc noonian)
19:25	lazybot	⇒ 4
19:25	justin_smith	yeah, nginx clojure looks nifty and all but I am not sure how much it really gains you over having a separate clojure process
19:26	amalloy	from what i've seen of nginx-clojure it's a bit wacky
19:26	hiredman	totally wacky
19:26	justin_smith	oh, it lets you put clojure code in the config, lol
19:27	justin_smith	you can even put your handler code inline in your nginx location definition
19:27	justin_smith	how "useful"
19:27	amalloy	dare i say, gonzo bonkers?
19:27	justin_smith	https://github.com/nginx-clojure/nginx-clojure#231-inline-ring-handler
19:32	deathknight	If I have {:body {:milestones [{:status 1} {:status 2}]}}, how can I create a collection of the values for each :status?
19:32	deathknight	I know how to get the value of the first status
19:33	justin_smith	(->> m :body :milestones (map :status))
19:33	deathknight	holy CRAP
19:33	deathknight	YOU ROCK
19:33	justin_smith	no kind sir, Clojure rocks
19:33	amalloy	inside voices
19:34	deathknight	nnnnnnnng
19:37	justin_smith	eventually you will likely want to doseq on that map, if this is you http://stackoverflow.com/questions/24071746/creating-a-collection-of-multiple-same-depth-values-in-a-nested-hashmap
19:37	justin_smith	in the doseq you could push the proper sync
19:38	justin_smith	haha, small world, now I see what's going on
19:38	justin_smith	deathknight: I am noisesmith on stackoverflow
19:40	deathknight	Justin!
19:40	deathknight	Holy crap!
19:41	deathknight	Hahaha
19:41	deathknight	I'm smiling so hard
19:56	kzar	Sorry was AFK there, so general consensus is to use http-kit + nginx instead of clojure-nginx?
19:57	amalloy	well, use anything+nginx
19:57	amalloy	whether http-kit or something else is the server you want is up to you
19:57	amalloy	but i would not touch nginx-clojure
19:58	kzar	Only thing is if you run a server process with something like http-kit how do you make sure that process keeps running?
19:59	amalloy	clojure doesn't just randomly crash every five minutes
19:59	kzar	In the past when I've done similar things with Python/Ruby instead of using nginx modules like passenger I've run into that problem
19:59	kzar	so you don't have something checking it's still running?