#clojure – 2014-06-04

2014-06-04

00:33	ddellaco_	amalloy, right1, alandipert: I don't understand why folks think SQL is such a problem honestly
01:13	PhallicQ	sputnikus
01:13	PhallicQ	What is your opinion on state sanctioned executions?
01:15	hellofunk	PhallicQ are you talking about federal laws for capital punishment? I think you are confusing this room with #closure
01:17	PhallicQ	I don'tknow of any room called #closure
01:17	PhallicQ	hellofunk, but yes, I am talking about capital punishment
01:17	PhallicQ	what is your opinion on the pracitce?
01:18	hellofunk	PhallicQ http://ejusa.org/learn/victims
01:20	xy86	hi, im toying with using clojure as a compilation target. its bascially an ast and is expression based so very easy to do it to
01:20	xy86	is anyone familiar with any projects that do something similar and is that approach not completely foolish?
01:21	PhallicQ	hellofunk, let me see.
01:22	PhallicQ	hellofunk, ah yeah
01:22	PhallicQ	retributive justice.
01:23	PhallicQ	A very American concept
01:23	PhallicQ	In my little scandinavian socialist state, we believe prisons should serve as a means to stop crime from happening, not as a vehicle for vengeance, and it's working fine because hey, there's less crime here.
01:23	hellofunk	PhallicQ the closure you're looking for is not the clojure we're offering
01:24	PhallicQ	Like I said, I'm not looking of that
01:24	PhallicQ	I know what this channel is about
01:24	PhallicQ	New scheme without TCO, some-what better type system, worse macroes etc.
01:25	PhallicQ	Well, the type system is weaker.
01:25	PhallicQ	Persistent vectors are cool though
01:25	PhallicQ	Funky data structure.
01:33	hellofunk	If I'm running a localhost webserver and I have a println in a function that is running on that server, shouldn't I see the output of that println in the REPL?
01:59	amalloy	hellofunk: in the thread processing your web requests, out is typically not bound to whatever your repl is reading from
01:59	hellofunk	amalloy ah that probably explains it
02:00	amalloy	it usually defaults to java's stdout, which will go to a terminal somewhere, or to nowhere at all if some other process started java and then you connected to the repl via another port
02:00	hellofunk	how do i get the out redirected to the repl, if possible?
02:28	hellofunk	ddellacosta it took a bit of naive hacking but i've got your oauth2 for friend returning the user's email address now, and it works nicely with other friend workflows that also return email address. thanks for all the pointers last couple of days.
03:57	hellofunk	I'm trying to make a ring route of /login serve a static html file. This doesn't seem to be doing it: (route/files "/login." {:root "./login.html"})
03:58	hellofunk	pasted a typo. it is: (route/files "/login" {:root "./login.html"})
06:36	yotsov	came across this quite neat performance comparison of atoms, refs and similar: http://clojure.roboloco.net/?p=894
06:38	yotsov	I am surprised that futures are roughly as expensive as refs. For me that makes them suitable only for very specific situations
06:39	Glenjamin	futures are 1:1 with threads iirc
06:39	Glenjamin	so if you create loads, co-ordination overhead will dominate
06:40	yotsov	I see. but no transactional memory involved with futures, right?
06:40	Glenjamin	not as far as i know
06:40	yotsov	thanks
06:51	clgv	yotsov: might be due to the configuration of the threadpool for futures
06:52	clgv	yotsov: actually comparing performance of refs and futures is apples vs oranges
06:53	yotsov	clgv: I see what you mean. My first reaction was to think futures involve transactional memory in some strange way I wasn't aware of. But of course jvm thread management can lead to such performance if not done correctly too
06:53	clgv	yotsov: what's the actual comparison over there you are refering to?
06:55	clgv	yotsov: single futures for very short calculations do have more scheduling effort than benefit. when parallelizing you always need to select the right size of the "work packages"
06:55	yotsov	Promise/deliver + future creation + destruction 7949 is of the order of what refs do and like 100 times slower than what atoms do
06:55	yotsov	yes I see
06:56	yotsov	so it is the jvm threads overhead we see there
06:56	yotsov	that's indeed irrelevant
06:56	clgv	although using criterium these benchmarks seem not well planned
06:59	clgv	the promise/deliver roundtrip does not make sense without some decent workload.
06:59	whodidthis	n
07:00	clgv	yotsov: and why is "3 futures" only done with atoms and not with refs as comparisons - that would actually make sense ;)
07:08	yotsov	clgv: right... well "general" benchmarking not corresponding to a particular scenario, tends to give not so much insight... this article just got me worried that futures might involve transactional memory in a way I am not aware of
07:09	clgv	yotsov: no they dont. they are implemented on top of javas threadpoolexecutors
07:09	yotsov	clgv: yep makes sense now, thanks
07:09	clgv	$source future-call
07:09	lazybot	future-call is http://is.gd/BkUPBd
07:10	visof	hi
07:11	visof	is there a good technique to conver "HelloWorld" to "hello_world" , and the same pattern which the word Start with capital letter so "ClojureIsNice" converted to "clojure_is_nic"
07:11	visof	"clojure_is_nice"
07:12	clgv	visof: split on upper caser letter a join with the wanted delimiter
07:12	visof	,(clojure.string/split "HelloWorld" #"[A-Z]")
07:13	clojurebot	eval service is offline
07:13	visof	clgv: that's will drop H and W
07:14	clgv	visof: yeah just noticed that
07:16	clgv	,(require '[clojure.string :as str])
07:16	clgv	,(str/join "-" (re-seq #"\p{Upper}\p{Lower}*" "ClojureIsNice"))
07:16	clojurebot	eval service is offline
07:16	clgv	clojurebot: why?
07:16	clojurebot	eval service is offline
07:16	clgv	:/
07:16	clgv	&(require '[clojure.string :as str])
07:16	lazybot	⇒ nil
07:17	clgv	&(str/join "-" (re-seq #"\p{Upper}\p{Lower}*" "ClojureIsNice"))
07:17	lazybot	⇒ "Clojure-Is-Nice"
07:18	clgv	visof: like that ^^ you just need to lowercase the words to fullfil your full spe
07:18	clgv	&(str/join "-" (map str/lower-case (re-seq #"\p{Upper}\p{Lower}*" "ClojureIsNice")))
07:18	lazybot	⇒ "clojure-is-nice"
07:19	visof	&(str/join "-" (map str/lower-case (re-seq #"\p{Upper}\p{Lower}*" "ClojureIsNiceClgvIsGreat")))
07:19	lazybot	⇒ "clojure-is-nice-clgv-is-great"
07:19	clgv	thx :P
08:02	ambrosebs	can I connect my REPL to a lazybot?
08:05	ambrosebs	nvm just learnt about reloading.
08:07	visof	clgv: ping
08:07	visof	&(str/join "-" (map str/lower-case (re-seq #"\p{Upper}\p{Lower}*" "clojureIsNice")))
08:07	lazybot	⇒ "is-nice"
08:08	clgv	visof: is that an error with repsect to your requirements?
08:08	visof	i need to get clojure too
08:10	clgv	&(str/join "-" (map str/lower-case (re-seq #"\p{Alpha}\p{Lower}*" "clojureIsNice")))
08:10	lazybot	⇒ "clojure-is-nice"
08:10	clgv	visof: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/util/regex/Pattern.html
08:16	ambrosebs	,clojure-version
08:17	ambrosebs	&clojure-version
08:17	lazybot	⇒ {:major 1, :minor 4, :incremental 0, :qualifier nil}
08:17	clojurebot	eval service is offline
08:17	ambrosebs	hmm I'll assume lazybot is stuck at 1.4.0 :(
08:24	clgv	ambrosebs: hit raynes ;)
08:24	clgv	until he changes it ^^
08:25	ambrosebs	Raynes: trying to get core.typed on lazybot again. Is it feasible to upgrade to clojure 1.5.1?
08:31	ambrosebs	oh cool, wasn't as hard as I thought.
08:31	ambrosebs	there was a tools.reader conflict with core.typed that I misinterpreted as a clojure.core version thing
08:32	clgv	ambrosebs: on to 1.6.0 then? ;)
08:32	ambrosebs	doesn't exist for me yet ;)
08:32	ambrosebs	waiting for CLJS
08:32	clgv	what has that to do with cljs?
08:33	ambrosebs	my clojure world is core.typed which depends on cljs
08:33	ambrosebs	I'm also the only person who tried to AOT compile cljs
08:33	ambrosebs	*tries
08:33	ambrosebs	and that doesn't work with 1.6.0
08:34	clgv	ambrosebs: because of the tools.analyzer your world depends on cljs
08:34	clgv	?
08:34	ambrosebs	no core.typed checks cljs code too
08:35	ambrosebs	not very well yet, but the dependency is there.
08:42	rurumate	,(into #{} nil)
08:43	clojurebot	eval service is offline
08:43	rurumate	oh noes
08:43	rurumate	I wanted to point out that, at least in clojure 1.5.1, (into #{} nil) = #{}
08:43	rurumate	and (into #{} nil nil) = exception
08:44	rurumate	whereas #{nil} != #{}
08:44	llasram	&(into #{} [] [])
08:44	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (3) passed to: core$into
08:44	llasram	rurumate: Thus isn't that expected?
08:44	llasram	both of `into`s arguments are collections
08:44	llasram	and it takes only two
08:45	rurumate	oh,
08:45	rurumate	right, into takes collection
08:46	rurumate	I meant (into #{} [nil])
08:46	rurumate	anyway
08:47	rurumate	it's a hot day, brainrot sets in
08:47	Glenjamin	&(into #{} [nil])
08:47	lazybot	⇒ #{nil}
08:47	Glenjamin	&(into #{} nil)
08:48	lazybot	⇒ #{}
08:48	Glenjamin	seems right
08:48	rurumate	so lazybot took clojurebots job away?
08:48	Glenjamin	oh, someone already did that
08:48	Glenjamin	they're usually both up
08:48	clgv	,(println "back again")
08:48	clgv	hm no, seems not like it
08:48	clojurebot	eval service is offline
08:48	rurumate	stuck in a loop, clojurebot?
08:49	clgv	rurumate: he got timeouts for that ;)
08:50	rurumate	&(into {} [nil [1 2] nil]
08:50	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading, starting at line 1
08:50	rurumate	(into {} [nil [1 2] nil])
08:50	rurumate	&(into {} [nil [1 2] nil])
08:50	lazybot	⇒ {1 2}
08:51	rurumate	maps are special
08:51	clgv	rurumate: well what should be done with nil?
08:51	clgv	&(into {} [[nil nil] [1 2]])
08:51	lazybot	⇒ {nil nil, 1 2}
08:51	rurumate	it's understood, map conj takes 2-vec or nil
08:52	clgv	you need at least key value pairs
08:52	rurumate	it just takes a bit of getting used to
08:52	rurumate	&(conj {} nil)
08:52	lazybot	⇒ {}
08:52	clgv	&(into {} [{:a 1 :b 2} {:a 42 :c 3}])
08:52	lazybot	⇒ {:a 42, :b 2, :c 3}
08:53	rurumate	&(into {} (remove nil? [nil [1 2] nil [3 4]]))
08:53	lazybot	⇒ {1 2, 3 4}
08:54	rurumate	the remove is not needed, is what I used to do
08:56	Glenjamin	&(conj {} nil)
08:56	lazybot	⇒ {}
08:56	Glenjamin	that's what into does under the hood
09:35	martin_	I'm looking for something similar to https://github.com/Leonidas-from-XIV/node-xml2js, but for Clojure. I want a more "natural" (for lack of a better word) data structure than the one clojure.xml/parse provides
09:35	clgv	rurumate: concerning that "remove" you mentioned - it is likely that the sequence resulted from a "map" and you could just switch to "keep" to throw away all nil values
09:40	rurumate	oh, thanks clgv I had not known about keep
09:41	martinklepsch	martin_, looked into enlive?
09:41	martinklepsch	martin_, what do you want to achieve?
09:44	martin_	martinklepsch: to transform a xml datastructure (e.g. merge attributes) into something that can be rendered as json
09:45	martinklepsch	manually selecting the elements from the XML or in general for various different xml snippets?
09:54	martin_	martinklepsch: I'm thinking there's a general solution for it, but maybe there isn't. Example: https://gist.github.com/martinp/8a3bfc85d6f98bd55551
09:55	martinklepsch	martin_ I've been working with XML a lot recently and that zipper structure is pretty clever actualyl
09:56	martinklepsch	martin_, in your example, where does the potential content of a tag go?
10:00	martin_	martinklepsch: ideally, they would be merged with :attrs as values of the associated tag name (:bar in the example), but then need to figure what do with duplicate keys and multiple values (when :content has more than one child)
10:01	martin_	so maybe the only solution is to do something more explicit with the zipper structure
10:02	martinklepsch	martin_ Whats your end goal here? do you want to obtain specifc data or rather convert a complete structure?
10:03	martinklepsch	merged with attrs means: {:more-test "abc" :test "xyz" :content "ovw"} ?
10:03	martinklepsch	I tried doing something similar and most of the time I just noticed that I was missing a case in how XML can be structured that then broke my attempt
10:03	martin_	martinklepsch: yes
10:05	arrdem	oh good clojure.core/when-let is a thing
10:13	lvh	how do I add things to a leiningen project that don't have formally released versions?
10:13	clgv	&(:since (meta #'when-let))
10:13	lazybot	⇒ nil
10:13	clgv	&(meta #'when-let)
10:13	lazybot	⇒ {:macro true, :ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name when-let, :arglists ([bindings & body]), :added "1.0", :doc "bindings => binding-form test\n\n When test is true, evaluates body with binding-form bound to the value of test", :line 1687, :file "clojure/core.clj"}
10:13	clgv	arrdem: since 1.0 ;)
10:13	arrdem	clgv: all these nice little pseudo-pattern matching constructs :P
10:13	clgv	lvh: you dont - since no one once to shoot himself in the foot
10:14	clgv	s/once/wants/
10:14	lvh	well, I'd like to do some network simulation
10:14	lvh	https://github.com/aphyr/timelike seems like it's a pretty decent start
10:14	clgv	lvh: usually I upload them under a version into a repository
10:14	lvh	so I run a repository of my own?
10:15	clgv	lvh: if the artifact is allowed to be public you upload it to clojars.org with a private group name
10:15	clgv	+can
10:16	lvh	clgv: I have no idea how that works but I guess I'm about to find out :)
10:17	cemerick	gfredericks: you pinged?
10:18	clgv	lvh: easiest way in this case. checkout the git repo change the project name to org.clojars.lvh/timelike maybe choose a different number. use "lein install" and then scp the pomx.xml and the jar to clojars@clojars.org
10:19	clgv	"version number"
10:19	lvh	clgv: awesome, thanks!
10:19	clgv	lvh: you need an account on clojars though and register you public ssh key overthere
10:20	clgv	lvh: alternatively use "lein deploy" instead of the scp approach but make sure you read its documentation
10:20	lvh	oh hay, there's actually a timeline clojar already
10:20	lvh	https://clojars.org/timelike
10:20	clgv	lvh: even better :D
10:20	lvh	unfortunately it's [timelike "0.1.0-SNAPSHOT"]
10:21	lvh	so I have no idea what version that actually is
10:21	clgv	lvh: that's the version that is on github
10:21	lvh	clgv: yeah, but isn't that also the default that you get when you lein new?
10:21	lvh	clgv: I'm suggesting there's lots of commits that have that version in project.clj
10:22	lvh	so I don't actually know that the thing on clojars is the thing that's currently git master, right?
10:22	lvh	(I'm really sure they've diverged because there's more recent commits on github, but only by a few days)
10:22	clgv	lvh: yes thats correct. usually you should make a 0.1.0 release when you think you covered most basic functionality...
10:22	lvh	I probably don't care too much though :)
10:22	lvh	clgv: Thanks a lot, that was super helpful!
10:23	clgv	lvh: if you need the most recent you'll have to build and upload it yourself or contact aphyr to do that ;)
10:38	dabbelingCLj	any LT users here?
10:38	arrdem	there are a few here, and more in #lighttable :P
10:39	stompyj	I used to, but I’ve gone away from it recently
10:39	dabbelingCLj	stompyj: what do you use instead?
10:39	stompyj	sublime text 3
10:40	dabbelingCLj	thats mac only right?
10:40	stompyj	although, my goal is to give IDEA + Cursive a good run
10:40	scripor	it's for windows, too
10:40	stompyj	no, it’s for all three platforms, win, mac & linux
10:40	scripor	how is clojure support on ST3?
10:40	dabbelingCLj	how do you setup developement?
10:41	stompyj	mmmmm. the nrepl stuff isn’t great, tbh
10:41	rurumate	what's a good string templating library for clojure? something ala stringtemplate, but easy?
10:41	stompyj	dabbelingCLj: but I have a weird dev setup atm. I do most of my coding in ST3 and just refresh the page to see whats happening
10:41	stompyj	I also have tests setup to run after every save
10:42	stompyj	and I do just keep a REPL open for prototyping functions
10:42	rurumate	Are there any reasons to not just use emacs?
10:42	cbp	Uh I can't tell what stringtemplate is like from its page but I always use selmer for templating
10:42	stompyj	rurumate: I think if you haven’t invested 18 years in VI like I have, then no
10:42	stompyj	but for me, its probably nto worth the cost
10:43	stompyj	I run ST3 in VIM mode
10:43	rurumate	stompyj: it's definitel worth a try
10:43	stompyj	and all my external boxes have vi on them
10:43	rurumate	emacs and lisp go pretty well together
10:43	stompyj	rurumate: I’ve used emacs quite a bit in college
10:43	cfleming	rurumate: Yeah, but the learning curve is steep
10:44	cfleming	rurumate: And I think other options are good now too
10:44	stompyj	rurumate: our infrastructure is clojure, java, javascript, and ruby, it wouldn’t be prudent to optimize for clojure, when it’s 3% of my codebase
10:44	rurumate	there's another catch about emacs: it's even steeper when you have a non american keyboard layout
10:44	cfleming	(full disclosure: I develop Cursive, so I'm biased)
10:44	stompyj	and as I said, I’ve been using vi for close to two decades
10:45	stompyj	cfleming: awesome. Thats where I want to be in hte next year or so, I love what you’ve done so far
10:45	rurumate	ok, I see the editor subject is a bit loaded
10:45	cfleming	stompyj: Yeah, those keyboard shortcuts really get down into the reptilian hindbrain after that long
10:45	cfleming	stompyj: Thanks! Lots of cool things coming too.
10:46	cfleming	stompyj: IntelliJ is probably a good fit for that language mix, too.
10:46	stompyj	Thats my goal
10:46	stompyj	Getting back to a “Real IDE"
10:46	stompyj	and IntelliJ seems pretty great
10:47	cfleming	Unfortunately IdeaVim has some rough edges with Cursive (and other language consoles)
10:47	cfleming	Yeah, IntelliJ is amazing.
10:47	cfleming	It's one of my favourite pieces of software ever.
10:47	stompyj	rurumate: I appreciate the sales pitch, didn’t mean to come off as harsh, just that this decision has been carefully considered :)
10:47	stompyj	What IdeaVim?
10:48	cfleming	The Vim bindings for IntelliJ
10:48	stompyj	Ahhh ok
10:48	stompyj	thats actually not so bad, For years I split my brain between “Hardcore IDE” for either .NET or Java developement and VI for everythign else
10:48	stompyj	so when I see a blank editor my mind goes vi
10:48	cfleming	I'm working with the developer to try to improve the Vim support in consoles.
10:48	stompyj	and if I see GUI, I think IDE
10:49	mercwithamouth	i change every 3-4 months
10:49	cfleming	Hehe
10:49	stompyj	dabbelingCLj: LT is pretty great tho, you should check it out
10:49	stompyj	mercwithamouth: lol
10:49	arrdem	mercwithamouth: someone doesn't use editor level keybindings :P
10:50	cfleming	Yeah, for getting started easily LT is really nice, especially for cljs
10:50	tsmarsh	I’ve been writing more and more clojure recently, but I’m a Java developer, so I fear I might be using protocols as a crutch. Is there a good resources on when to use protocols vs how?
10:50	stompyj	mercwithamouth: you’re killing me. Deadpool is one of my favorite comic book chars
10:50	stompyj	and now I wonder what he’s been up to :/
10:51	cfleming	tsmarsh: Check out the Clojure Programming book - the chapter on protocols/records etc is nice.
10:51	pandapool	aw crap someone already registered this :P
10:51	cfleming	Talks in particular about when to choose records over maps etc.
10:51	dabbelingCLj	stompyj: I just tried and got weird issues :/ thats not helping when learning a new language
10:51	stompyj	dabbelingCLj: ahhh. got it :/ sorry to hear that
10:52	irctc	Which concurrency primitive should I use if I want to limit a function concurrent execution of pmap? I want to use pmap on a function say downloadfile but I only want a max of 4 concurrent execution at any one time. Any suggestions? Thank you!
10:52	stompyj	I’ve yet to use protocols/records. I think my clojure code is probably remedial
10:52	arrdem	irctc: use a real ratelimiter rather than complecting your parallel function call operation with rate limiting
10:52	stompyj	heh
10:53	irctc	What is a real ratelimiter? Are there any implementations?
10:53	arrdem	$google clojure rate limiting github
10:53	lazybot	[jkk/rate-gate · GitHub] https://github.com/jkk/rate-gate
10:53	irctc	Thanks!
10:54	hhenkel	Hi all, I'm trying to read multiple yaml files and the want them to merge in a "single tree". Anyone aware how to do that?
10:54	tsmarsh	thanks.
10:55	hhenkel	I'm using clj-yaml
10:55	arrdem	hhenkel: custom recursive tree merge?
10:55	tsmarsh	Protocols just don’t feel very functional, they’re awesome, but somehow it feels like cheating. I think I’m using them correctly according to the examples. Thanks again
10:56	hhenkel	arrdem: Pardon? :)
10:56	arrdem	tsmarsh: how are they cheating... as long as your protocol is pure, the protocol methods themselves are first class and life's good.
10:56	arrdem	tsmarsh: if your protocol isn't pure, then you're just being silly
10:56	arrdem	(doc merge)
10:56	clojurebot	"([& maps]); Returns a map that consists of the rest of the maps conj-ed onto the first. If a key occurs in more than one map, the mapping from the latter (left-to-right) will be the mapping in the result."
10:57	tsmarsh	because the look up isn’t the same as everything else. You look up the function on the first argument, rather than in the namespace.
10:58	arrdem	hhenkel: (-> (text ← yaml) (λ yaml → map) (λ map → map) (λ map → yaml) (λ yaml → string))
10:58	llasram	tsmarsh: The protocol function still exists in the namespace. It just performs implementation dispatch based on that first argument...
10:58	tsmarsh	ahhhhhh, thats the bit I was missing. That makes so much sense. Thank you
10:58	hhenkel	arrdem: okay, that sounds reasonable. Only problem I see is that I use hooks in yaml so I guess I need to load all files first, then parse them with clj-yaml (snakeyaml).
10:58	arrdem	tsmarsh: that's not inherently imperative at all, you're just dispatching differently than a normal function.
10:59	llasram	arrdem: That said, if you're writing lots of protocols then `deftype`s which implement those protocols, then there probably is a better way :-)
11:00	tsmarsh	arrdem, it wasn’t imperative that worried about so much as OO.
11:00	martin_	given [{:a {:c 2, :b 1}} {:a {:c 3, :b 4}}], what would be good way to transform it into {:a [{:c 2 :b 1} {:c 3 :b 4}]}?
11:00	arrdem	llasram: yeah. my first compiler abused the crap out of deftype and protocols T_T
11:00	arrdem	tsmarsh: oo isn't somehow not functional so long as it's pure and the methods can be taken as values...
11:01	arrdem	tsmarsh: then it's just record oriented programming :P
11:02	tsmarsh	arrdem, agreed, more that I’m trying to learn to be a better functional programmer, but I fall back in to what I’d concider to be OO. My OO strives to be as pure and immutable as possible, so I guess I shouldn’t be too suprised at the similarities between my Java and my Clojure
11:03	llasram	tsmarsh: Do you have any code you can share for specific patterns you're concern about?
11:05	tsmarsh	llasram, not yet. I was about to go in and extend a small project I was working on, and protocols seemed like a good fit. I just wanted to get a sense of “am I writing Java in Clojure”. I’ll share when I’ve checked it in
11:05	justin_smith	,(apply merge-with vector [{:a {:c 2, :b 1}} {:a {:c 3, :b 4}}]) martin:
11:05	clojurebot	{:a [{:c 2, :b 1} {:c 3, :b 4}]}
11:06	justin_smith	martin_: that is ^
11:07	martin_	justin_smith: beautiful, thank you
12:03	rurumate	quick, what are '[#_foo] and '#_foo
12:04	rurumate	or (quote #_foo)
12:05	philandstuff	well #_ is a reader macro that discards the next form
12:05	philandstuff	so (quote #_foo) reads as (quote)
12:05	bbloom	... why does it need to be so quick?
12:05	rurumate	yes, that's correct!
12:05	rurumate	so you don't cheat and try it in the repl
12:06	philandstuff	that's not cheating?
12:08	llasram	I didn't realize we were being quizzed on how well our collective mental model of Clojure matched the implementation(s)
12:08	llasram	Are there prizes and/or punishments?
12:12	martin_	justin_smith: any way to do it for a vector with more than two elements?
12:13	stompyj	(inc llasram)
12:13	lazybot	⇒ 25
12:13	arrdem	llasram: why would we need rewards when we have internet points!
12:13	arrdem	(inc llasram)
12:13	lazybot	⇒ 26
12:13	arrdem	(dec so)
12:13	lazybot	⇒ -26
12:17	PigDude	aliasing something from antoher namespace .. now i have (def ^{:doc "Docs.."} foo some-ns/kazoo), is that right?
12:17	PigDude	it works of course
12:17	llasram	PigDude: Why do you need to do that?
12:17	PigDude	llasram: i want all API in core
12:18	PigDude	llasram: it's a python idiom i think but i think it applies here? dunno
12:18	llasram	ztellman wrote https://github.com/ztellman/potemkin to help with that, but
12:19	llasram	I think the general consensus is that it's better to just keep the implementation and interface namespace divisions the same
12:19	justin_smith	martin_: merge-with is varargs, so any number of maps in the vec will work
12:20	kschrader	anybody know an easy way to print out all of the compojure routes defined in an app?
12:21	justin_smith	,(apply merge-with vector [{:a {:c 2, :b 1}} {:a {:c 3, :b 4}} {:a {:c 4}}]) martin_
12:21	clojurebot	{:a [[{:c 2, :b 1} {:c 3, :b 4}] {:c 4}]}
12:22	justin_smith	oh wait, that is structured oddly isn't it
12:24	cbp	PigDude: nitpick, you can do (def foo "Docs.." ..)
12:28	justin_smith	,,(apply merge-with (fn [a b] (if (vector? a) (conj a b) (vector a b))) [{:a {:c 2, :b 1}} {:a {:c 3, :b 4}} {:a {:c 4}}]) martin_: there may be a cleaner way to do this, but this works
12:28	clojurebot	{:a [{:c 2, :b 1} {:c 3, :b 4} {:c 4}]}
12:29	justin_smith	but that does end up failing if any of your initial vals are vectors...
12:30	PigDude	cbp: oh cool, didn't know that
12:31	dbasch	,(apply merge-with (fn [& args] (into [] args)) [{:a {:c 2, :b 1}} {:a {:c 3, :b 4}} {:a {:c 4}}])
12:31	clojurebot	{:a [[{:c 2, :b 1} {:c 3, :b 4}] {:c 4}]}
12:31	dbasch	same problem
12:35	justin_smith	dbasch: I think the right way is to wrap all vals of the first arg in vectors, and then merge-with conj, wrapping any new keys in vectors - which makes me think merge-with is not the right way to do this
12:35	justin_smith	*any vals of new keys
12:38	llasram	,(->> [{:a {:c 2, :b 1}} {:a {:c 3, :b 4}} {:a {:c 4}}] (apply concat) (reduce (fn [m [k v]] (update-in m [k] (fnil conj []) v)) {}))
12:38	clojurebot	{:a [{:c 2, :b 1} {:c 3, :b 4} {:c 4}]}
12:39	ambrosebs	Bronsa: can you attach the evaluated result to the AST in analyze+eval ?
12:39	arrdem	justin_smith: no that's still fine, it just becomes (fn [[x & more]] (reduce (partial merge-with conj) (map-vals vec x) more))
12:40	dbasch	,(apply merge (vals (group-by keys [{:a {:c 2, :b 1}} {:a {:c 3, :b 4}} {:a {:c 4}}])))
12:40	clojurebot	[{:a {:c 2, :b 1}} {:a {:c 3, :b 4}} {:a {:c 4}}]
12:40	dbasch	I don’t know what the original request was
12:40	arrdem	ambrosebs: I don't think t.e.jvm has that out of the box, but I may be wrong.
12:40	ambrosebs	arrdem: that's a feature request :)
12:41	arrdem	ambrosebs: :P
12:41	arrdem	(doseq [maintainer lurking-maintainers] (inc maintainer))
12:41	ambrosebs	oh I forgot to say please!
12:42	Bronsa	ambrosebs: sure, any idea for the field name? :eval-ret?
12:42	arrdem	Bronsa: :result
12:42	Bronsa	arrdem: that's better, yeah
12:43	dbasch	it looks like the bot that logs this channel is not running http://clojure-log.n01se.net/
12:45	arrdem	as long as we're bugging Bronsa...
12:45	Bronsa	ambrosebs: https://github.com/clojure/tools.analyzer.jvm/commit/37679c74039507042050f88bb25eac362d595d00
12:46	Bronsa	arrdem: :)
12:46	arrdem	Bronsa: I don't know if preserving the raw input from macroexpand through eval is something you'd consider a feature, but I hacked it in for Oxcart. https://github.com/arrdem/oxcart/commit/ad55c112547712367890456e578d671636d5447e
12:46	arrdem	s/eval/analyze/g
12:47	Bronsa	ambrosebs: I'm probably gonna cut a 0.2.0 later today with the new env stuff
12:47	ambrosebs	looks good
12:47	ambrosebs	you mean with t.a.js?
12:48	ambrosebs	unaware of env stuff in t.a.jvm
12:48	Bronsa	ambrosebs: no, t.a.js is not ready for a release yet
12:49	Bronsa	ambrosebs: the next releases of t.a and t.a.j will include a breaking change, I moved :namespaces from :env to a global env/env
12:49	ambrosebs	oh very nice
12:49	martin_	,(apply merge-with (comp flatten vector) [{:a {:c 2, :b 1}} {:a {:c 3, :b 4}} {:a {:c 4}}])
12:49	clojurebot	{:a ({:c 2, :b 1} {:c 3, :b 4} {:c 4})}
12:49	Bronsa	ambrosebs: that's for the sake of unifying behaviour between t.a.jvm and t.a.js
12:49	martin_	justin_smith: ended up with that one ^
12:50	justin_smith	oh, cool - except flatten sucks
12:50	justin_smith	~flatten
12:50	clojurebot	flatten is rarely the right answer. Suppose you need to use a list as your "base type", for example. Usually you only want to flatten a single level, and in that case you're better off with concat. Or, better still, use mapcat to produce a sequence that's shaped right to begin with.
12:50	Bronsa	ambrosebs: also it makes more sense to have the namespaces map in an env that can be shared between different analyze calls
12:51	martin_	justin_smith: I see :)
12:51	ambrosebs	ah true.
12:51	justin_smith	martin_: same problem as the (if (vector? a) ...) version - it loses structure
12:51	Bronsa	arrdem: re: :raw-form, sure, I'd take a patch for that
12:52	arrdem	Bronsa: the issue is that it sits weirdly in the macroexpand/analyze pipeline because it needs to jump over macroexpand and I don't think you expose a macorexpand+analyze fn.
12:53	arrdem	Bronsa: you're welcome to it, I just don't think of where it would fit offhand.
12:57	PigDude	(RT.java:505)
12:57	PigDude	of course!
12:59	PigDude	hangs the tests too
13:00	PigDude	my test suite has stopped reportnig errors
13:00	PigDude	it reports the line location but not the sort of error, and hangs
13:03	justin_smith	https://www.refheap.com/86275 martin_: finally a version that preserves all incoming structure, just couldn't figure out how to do it as a one liner
13:04	Bronsa	arrdem: http://sprunge.us/BWIE what do you think?
13:04	justin_smith	it's probably more verbose and simultaneously more obtuse than it needs to be, but it is the first version that is actually correct if any v in the incoming maps is already a vector
13:04	justin_smith	also it is bad because it walks all the keys of all the maps twice
13:09	arrdem	Bronsa: works for me
13:09	arrdem	Bronsa: thanks!
13:09	Uruk	Q: lein seems to ignore my $http_proxy and $https_proxy. Running netstat/wireshark while running lein deps shows it's trying to direct connect. Anything else to check? How do you get lein to respect $http_proxy?
13:09	arrdem	Uruk: ask in #leiningen probably...
13:10	Uruk	arrdem: will do, thanks
13:10	arrdem	dunno if tech is lurking yet but he's more likely to give support over ther.e
13:10	PigDude	so, this is a problem i could use some help with
13:10	PigDude	why my test suite is not showing errors, and hangs instead?
13:11	Bronsa	arrdem: np https://github.com/clojure/tools.analyzer/commit/6042cd3b25ad7e6a597e7fcf3bd0ddb8c6159a54
13:11	technomancy	Uruk: all the proxy stuff has been contributed; I don't think anyone on the maintainer team is familiar with it
13:11	arrdem	Bronsa: wait, what on earth is your :raw-forms doing? O
13:11	PigDude	i am invoking tests with `lein test` and cleaned my project to make sure there was nothing untoward
13:11	arrdem	Bronsa: oh it's a seq of every step of macroexpand-1.
13:11	Bronsa	yeah
13:11	arrdem	Bronsa: solid!
13:11	MagBo[MURT]	hi. I can't figure out if symbol has any special meanong
13:12	MagBo[MURT]	meaning*. I mean those asterisks
13:12	PigDude	this is making it extremely difficult to fix bugs found by these tests, because i only get a file and line number
13:12	PigDude	in certain cases i get a RT.java line number instead
13:15	justin_smith	martin_: updated to only walk the input once https://www.refheap.com/86275
13:16	PigDude	i have a hunch there is an infinite loop in a test here, and that clojure test runner does not report (see?) the exceptions until some later point in the test execution
13:16	PigDude	what do you do about this?
13:18	MagBo[MURT]	the more docs I read the more I thknk that a symbol in asterisks denotes something semantically but isnt enforced by reader.
13:18	justin_smith	PigDude: maybe spawn a thread alongside the test that throws an exception after some timeout, and manually stop that thread when the individual test completes
13:19	justin_smith	PigDude: that way the exception can tell you which test spawned the thread that timed out and threw an exception
13:19	justin_smith	PigDude: I bet core.async would make this very easy to do
13:19	PigDude	but this is a bug right?
13:20	justin_smith	PigDude: sounds like a bug in your test
13:20	justin_smith	how should the test runner no a-priori how long a test has to run?
13:20	justin_smith	*know
13:20	PigDude	oh because i feel like a test runner that emits ERROR in (test-events-out-of-order) (MultiFn.java:160) Uncaught exception, not in assertion. expected: nil
13:20	PigDude	and then hangs while not showing a known exception
13:20	PigDude	is buggy
13:21	justin_smith	,(def x 'should-be-special) MagBo[MURT]
13:21	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.SecurityException: denied, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
13:21	justin_smith	MagBo[MURT]: anyway, if you run that above in your local repl, you will see the warning: "Warning: x not declared dynamic and thus is not dynamically rebindable, but its name suggests otherwise. Please either indicate ^:dynamic x or change the name. (NO_SOURCE_PATH:1)"
13:22	MagBo[MURT]	justin_smith: got it, had a hunch that it denotes some warning-level semantics.
13:23	justin_smith	MagBo[MURT]: right, and you would see that warning if any lib you used made a foo that was not ^:dynamic
13:23	MagBo[MURT]	got it, thanks.
13:24	MagBo[MURT]	i wonder if it's reflected in the docs.
13:25	justin_smith	,(meta #'*1)
13:25	clojurebot	{:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name *1, :added "1.0", :file "clojure/core.clj", :column 1, ...}
13:25	justin_smith	,(:dynamic (meta #'*1))
13:25	clojurebot	true
13:25	MagBo[MURT]	really difficult to search for all these arcane modifyers and while #, ^ and so on are really well documented, i didnt see anything about **.
13:26	justin_smith	MagBo[MURT]: we call them earmuffs http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Library+Coding+Standards
13:27	ambrosebs	Bronsa: just happened to have some calls to update-ns-map! in core.typed.
13:27	MagBo[MURT]	justin_smith: <3 thanks for the link
13:28	Bronsa	ambrosebs: remove the env argument and it will work as before
13:29	ambrosebs	ok
13:30	Bronsa	I could have left the argument as a no-op to avoid breaking compatibility now that I think about it
13:32	Bronsa	MagBo[MURT]: note that ** are not modifiers, foo is just a regular symbol
13:33	ambrosebs	I guess.
13:43	Glenjamin	http://yobriefca.se/blog/2014/05/19/the-weird-and-wonderful-characters-of-clojure/
13:44	jcromartie1	I have a lot of issues with the terminology of that article
13:45	Glenjamin	the bit at the top about not having a good reference point for hard-to-google symbols is valid though
13:45	jcromartie1	yes
13:45	jcromartie1	except http://clojure.org/reader
13:46	Glenjamin	mm, but not everything ungooglable is part of the reader
13:49	ambrosebs	Bronsa: could t.a.jvm make this a little easier to write? Just a macroexpand-1 that provides a map of macro overrides https://github.com/clojure/core.typed/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/typed/analyze_clj.clj#L82
13:49	justin_smith	is there a version of pcalls which reorders the results based on which one returns first?
13:49	ambrosebs	unsure if it's common enough to support.
13:50	justin_smith	ie. so that (first (race-pcalls ...)) would always give the result of the fastest calculation
13:52	Glenjamin	i'm not sure how you'd implement that
13:52	Glenjamin	would need another thread checking results of the worker threads?
13:53	Glenjamin	or some sort of channel
13:53	justin_smith	Glenjamin: I am working on a version with a promise and futures racing to fill the promise right now
13:53	justin_smith	just figured it might already exist
13:53	Glenjamin	how do you know which promise is ready?
13:53	justin_smith	both futures want to deliver the same promise
13:53	justin_smith	first one wins
13:53	Glenjamin	oh, i see
13:53	justin_smith	the other gets cancelled
13:54	Glenjamin	if the future completes and the promise is already taken, it tries the next one?
13:54	pjstadig	have the pcalls conj into an atom containing a vector
13:54	justin_smith	ahh, not directly using the result
13:54	justin_smith	but I like the idea of cancelling the calls that are not done yet
13:55	cbp	justin_smith: that sounds like alts!! with the cancelling
13:55	justin_smith	cbp: yeah, but I was hoping I could do something simple that did not require pulling in all of core.async
13:55	justin_smith	which may be folly, finding out now
13:56	faustroll	I'm fiddling with logging
13:57	faustroll	I like the thinking behind clj-logging-config
13:57	faustroll	but it seems not to have caught on and not been introduced into clojure.tools.logging
13:58	Bronsa	ambrosebs: I guess you could do something like http://sprunge.us/WjjJ
13:58	faustroll	It looks as if when folks are using logback they are fiddling with xml?
14:00	faustroll	any thoughts on logging in a clojure way?
14:00	justin_smith	faustroll: I had really bad luck trying to make any of the clojure wrappers for java logging stuff behave in a nice clojurey way (ie. runtime config that did not depend on global settings and did not require mucking with xml)
14:00	justin_smith	faustroll: this could have just been a sign of my impatience or ignorance though
14:02	faustroll	justin_smith: I hear you. I'm feeling the pain right now
14:02	faustroll	justin_smith: clj-logging-config looks like a noble attempt
14:03	justin_smith	if you can stomach a single global config, timbre is the least yucky https://github.com/ptaoussanis/timbre
14:03	faustroll	justin_smith: but it seems not to have been updated for slf4j
14:04	justin_smith	or maybe I mean most-clojurey, which to me is least-yucky
14:04	llasram	If all you want out of logging is to get lines tagged with the log level to go out via STDERR, clojure.tools.logging is fine
14:04	llasram	(and since IMHO that's what you usually really want from logging...)
14:04	arrdem	tools logging is fine, but timbre is a little nicer for leightweight use.
14:05	arrdem	definitely not a lightweight lib tho.
14:05	llasram	"Hey, there sure are a lot of JVM logging libraries. I know how to solve this -- I'll write another one!"
14:05	arrdem	(inc llasram) ;; the lisper's curse strikes again.
14:05	lazybot	⇒ 27
14:05	faustroll	thanks so much for all the responses
14:05	llasram	tools.logging at least is just a facade which works over whatever Java library logging facility you are probably already using
14:05	arrdem	llasram: but xml is nasty and evil...
14:06	arrdem	ambrosebs: lol @ swift static types
14:06	llasram	I use it with slf4j+log4j and a ~5 line property file
14:06	llasram	No XML in site
14:06	llasram	er, sight
14:06	faustroll	arrdem: i'd love to avoid xml
14:06	llasram	We do have some XML at our site :-)
14:07	faustroll	llasram: as long as no human has to read it
14:07	llasram	Of course
14:07	llasram	log4j's property file configuration is pretty human-friendly IMHO
14:08	faustroll	llasram: the libraries I am using are already using logback
14:08	llasram	Are they directly using logback, or are they using that as the default via slf4j?
14:08	cbp	java config files are pretty tame compared to RPC things
14:09	faustroll	llasram: I'd like a clojurey way of programmatically setting log levels in different contexts
14:09	llasram	Er. Why?
14:10	faustroll	llasram: very noob here. but I want to quiet logs during testing
14:10	llasram	Then you don't want programmatic setting of the log level -- you want test configuration which sets the log level :-)
14:11	faustroll	llasram: lol! yes. I want to quiet the logs while testing in Storm
14:12	arrdem	so just load a different log config as part of testing...
14:12	llasram	faustroll: Do you mean you want to change the log level of a Storm cluster while doing some sort of integration testing, or just change the log level while running local tests?
14:12	faustroll	llasram: local tests
14:13	faustroll	llasram: I modified a with-quiet-logs function
14:13	llasram	I see
14:13	faustroll	llasram: and it worked with log4j
14:14	eraserhd	OK, so if I 'lein install' and it puts a jar in ~/.m2/repository, I'm supposed to be able to use it from another project, right?
14:14	llasram	What I'd do instead is add a `test-resources` directory and Leiningen :test profile :resource-paths entry, then include a separate logging config
14:14	justin_smith	eraserhd: if you require the right group / artifact
14:14	llasram	It will only apply when running `lein test` (vs running tests in your REPL), but that's usually what I personally want anyway
14:14	faustroll	llasram: thanks for the suggestion
14:15	eraserhd	justin_smith: Well, I'm definitely doing that, I just bumped the version in the requiring project.
14:15	jcromartie1	I'm really liking Cursive.
14:15	justin_smith	eraserhd: that is to say, if you add the right group / artifact in your deps (sorry for the sloppiness)
14:15	eraserhd	Oh, doh. No I don't. Weird internal version messiness.
14:15	faustroll	llasram: Storm moved on from log4j to slf4j and my previous function is no longer useful
14:16	justin_smith	eraserhd: yeah, lein install is pretty simple, so any problems are usually just not getting the group / artifact right
14:16	faustroll	I looked at the way pallet implemented logging and I liked it
14:17	dgleeson	I have a question about ring middleware. So I'm still pretty new to clojure, so this might sound like a dumb question. In all the examples of middleware I see that the first thing that happens is an anonymous function that takes a request. I'm not sure I understand where the request is coming from.
14:18	gtrak	dgleeson: check out the jetty servlet adapter.
14:19	gtrak	https://github.com/rmarianski/ring-jetty-servlet-adapter/blob/master/src/ring/adapter/jetty_servlet.clj#L14
14:19	eraserhd	dgleeson: middleware returns an anonymous function which accepts a request.
14:20	dgleeson	eraserhd: Ah, ok, that makes sense!! thanks
14:20	gtrak	dgleeson: and that calls this to build the request map: https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/master/ring-servlet/src/ring/util/servlet.clj#L149
14:20	eraserhd	So it's like (defn wrap-x [x] (fn [req] (x req)))
14:20	dgleeson	gtrak: also, thanks for the backgroudn!
14:20	gtrak	np!
14:21	eraserhd	So what happens when project x requires version A of z, project y requires version B of z, and project x requires project y (in leiningen)?
14:22	gtrak	you get to learn about lein exclusions
14:23	eraserhd	Is it an error? Or is the result "undefined"?
14:23	doritostains	I'm loading a schema in a datomic mem db, ~900 lines, and I get a "Method code too large" error. Is there a limit to how large a transaction can be or would there be something I should look in to?
14:24	technomancy	eraserhd: depth in the dependency tree determines it; if there's a tie then the first one wins
14:26	faustroll	llasram: I'm looking a logback docs now
14:26	faustroll	llasram: I see that logback first looks for a logback-text.xml
14:27	llasram	faustroll: If they're using slf4j, you can use log4j instead of logback if you prefer it. You just need to add exclusions for the logback and slf4j logback bindings and include the log4j ones
14:27	jcromartie1	how many people here use Emacs in OS X from the terminal vs Emacs.app
14:28	eraserhd	technomancy: Oh, cool.
14:28	eraserhd	technomancy: Thanks.
14:29	PigDude	is there a shorthand for (fn [& [first-arg]] (f first-arg))? i.e. (single-arg-fn first-arg) ..
14:29	faustroll	llasram: thanks. I'm okay with logback. I'm building this with forward compatibility in mind
14:29	PigDude	i find i define functions like that for multimethods
14:30	llasram	,((partial count) [1] :whatever :else)
14:30	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (3) passed to: core/count>
14:30	justin_smith	PigDude: why not (fn [arg & _] (frob arg))
14:30	llasram	Ha, what was I thinking
14:30	faustroll	llasram: If Storm is moving on to logback, then logback it is for this project
14:31	justin_smith	PigDude: or is the intention that with no args first-arg would be passed on as nil?
14:31	PigDude	justin_smith: well, it's for instance if i had a multimethod that dispatched by identity in some cases, identity only accepts one arg
14:32	PigDude	justin_smith: but method implementations should be able to work with however many args
14:32	justin_smith	I think (fn [arg & _]) is more explicit about taking multiple args and only using the first
14:32	justin_smith	to me the fact that zero args becomes an error is a bonus
14:33	PigDude	hm that's a good point
14:33	PigDude	being same length, i used theone without the dummy binding _, but they do behave differently
14:34	justin_smith	PigDude: https://www.refheap.com/86280 a simple error-if-it-took-too-long function
14:35	justin_smith	(timed 10 #(reduce *' (range 1 10000N))) => AssertionError Assert failed: completed in a timely manner: 10ms G__1837 user/timed (NO_SOURCE_FILE:7)
14:36	justin_smith	could be trivially updated to pass in a string to include in the assert message
14:40	devn	There has to be a better way to do this: https://gist.github.com/devn/09f17059c55c01f85922
14:41	amalloy	devn: java.lang.String is just String
14:41	devn	amalloy: sure, just qualifying it along with java.io.File
14:42	dbasch	my name is String. java.lang.String.
14:42	llasram	devn: If you really want to use some `client` dynamic, make the multimethod e.g. `as-page!` and dispatch only on the non-WebClient argument. Then you can have `as-page!` be a function which accepts either arity and delegates to `as-page!`
14:43	devn	llasram: yeah, i was heading that direction, but i wondered if there was a simpler option i was missing. that seems like the right thing to do though
14:44	devn	llasram: much obliged for the input
14:44	llasram	Well, ditching the default dynamic var argument would make it even simpler :-)
14:46	devn	llasram: yeah, but i don't wannnnnaaa :D
14:48	ticking	I really wonder what would be possible if all clojure code was just EDN instead of a superset.
14:49	ticking	You could manage the code in a database and send it of to different compilers that run as services on different platforms
14:49	dbasch	ticking: the same but less concise
14:50	ticking	dbasch: well you could tell your IDE to manage syntactic sugar for you
14:51	amalloy	i'd be sad to lose #(% x)
14:51	amalloy	ugh, and having to write (quote x) instead of 'x
14:52	amalloy	and syntax-quote
14:52	ticking	amalloy: why not have a rule in your editor that automatically displays short fn s as #(, same goes for '
14:53	arrdem	ticking: because nesting #() isn't legal and therefore rewriting fns to #() isn't generally sane,.
14:53	ticking	amalloy: syntax quote is the only thing that would really suck because it is all done by the reader and there is no symbolic equivalent
14:53	ticking	arrdem: yeah, but I have never seen a #( contain a fn
14:54	amalloy	ticking: what
14:54	amalloy	that happens all the time
14:54	amalloy	i mean, not all the time, but certainly not never
14:54	arrdem	ticking: sure, but I have, and I've also written fns containing fns. that said I did just write a lambda lifting engine so... moot point any way you want to get the AST into the compiler.
14:55	arrdem	it'll all express the same control flow once compiled and that's all that matters
14:56	ticking	arrdem: yeah fn conainting fn or #( seems sensible to me but having short hand notation contain enough code to include a fn seems weird to me
14:57	arrdem	ticking: is it stylistically weird? sure... point is that the parser permits it.
14:57	arrdem	s/parser/reader & macroexpander/g
14:58	patrickod	I'm working on a small clojure project with ring and the ring server-headless command has suddenly stopped working due to an SSL issue with the clj_http dependency https://gist.github.com/patrickod/25671c703311eb8157a3
14:58	patrickod	specifically java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: org.apache.http.conn.ssl.SSLContexts
14:59	ticking	arrdem: it just feels to me that clojure has the largest "data all the things" movement of all lisps, yet the language itself is the least homoiconic of them all
14:59	patrickod	I'm unsure what could have changed no my machine to cause this. has anyone experienced this before?
14:59	arrdem	ticking: how so?
14:59	arrdem	ticking: reader macros are still just as first class as lists and much nicer to use.
15:00	ticking	arrdem: the code has the most syntactic sugar
15:00	ticking	arrdem: yeah and I'd argue that reader macros break homoiconicy
15:00	arrdem	ticking: lolk
15:00	ticking	arrdem: at least when there is not a simple transformation between them as in ' and quote
15:00	hiredman	patrickod: do a 'lein deps :tree' it is likely that you have conflicting dependencies on different versions of the apache http client stuff
15:01	arrdem	ticking: okay, and why does this matter in terms of homoiconicy?
15:02	patrickod	hiredman: yah that seems to be the case. there's dependencies using both 4.3.x and 4.2.x
15:02	hiredman	patrickod: well pick one
15:03	patrickod	these are subdependencies. I'll see if their parent packages have updates that I've not used
15:03	arrdem	ticking: code's still data, data's still code, macroexpand happens to make some things easier to write.
15:03	amalloy	ticking: homoiconicity doesn't care at all about the textual representation of your code, only that the forms produced by the reader and manipulated by the compiler are the same data structures as you use to store "normal data"
15:04	arrdem	(inc amalloy)
15:04	lazybot	⇒ 116
15:04	ticking	arrdem amalloy: according to that definition any self hosting language is homoiconic
15:04	amalloy	uh, no?
15:05	amalloy	like, try python. how do you manipulate python code from within python? do you use arrays, lists, tuples, and dictionaries? no, you have to use strings or some byzantine AST object
15:05	ticking	amalloy: let's assume I take python, rewrite all the code blocks into python lists, maps and strings, during parsing, then pass it on to the compiler
15:05	dbasch	ticking: that’s no longer python
15:05	amalloy	if you did that, it would be homoiconic
15:06	amalloy	but that's not at all what python is now
15:06	amalloy	and that's a gargantuan project
15:06	ticking	amalloy: the tl;dr of wikipedias definition of homoiconicity is " the AST and the syntax are isomorphic"
15:06	hiredman	amalloy: wikipedia's homoiconicity entry would seem to disagree with ou
15:07	ticking	how is the ast of a sytax quote isomorphic to what it expands to?
15:07	dbasch	“In a homoiconic language the primary representation of programs is also a data structure in a primitive type of the language itself”
15:08	ticking	dbasch: yes, but as clojure has no quasiquote type, I don't see how this holds
15:10	justin_smith	homoiconicity is not identity of source code as ascii and program structure, that the internal form is a native clojure structure suffices
15:10	justin_smith	reader macros are a convenience, but they don't affect the meaning of the thing stored
15:11	ticking	justin_smith: but how is that any different from any self hosting system
15:11	ticking	arrdem: no seriously, show me the difference
15:11	dbasch	a python program is not a primitive python data structure, unless you call strings data structures
15:11	ticking	currently the best way to work with clojure seems to be tools.analyzer
15:11	amalloy	heh. C is homoiconic because its code is represented as pointers to bytes, which are a native type
15:11	arrdem	because the read of "for(int i = 0; i < 3; i++){println(i);}" has no syntactic meaning in another language.
15:11	arrdem	here java
15:12	justin_smith	ticking: you can walk the internal representation, and it looks like normal data structures, and you can use normal data structure manipulating code on it
15:12	ticking	which produces the exact byzantine ast "objects" amalloy feared
15:12	dbasch	machine language is homoiconic :P
15:12	arrdem	(inc dbasch)
15:12	lazybot	⇒ 4
15:12	amalloy	ticking: no, the easiest way to work with clojure is to write clojure, and use macros to manipulate the source
15:13	amalloy	you use tools.analyzer if you need a deep knowledge of what small vm-level instructions your code will turn into
15:14	ticking	amalloy: but that is exactly the point, you can't manipulate the source, only an intermediary, because of reader macros
15:14	ticking	otherwise writing a structural editor would be a bazillion times easier
15:15	justin_smith	but the intermediary has the same structure as the source, it is just more explicit / verbose - and when you are doing programmatic transformation this is a big win
15:15	Glenjamin	but you can manipuate the AST
15:15	justin_smith	because that is simpler to work with in macros etc.
15:15	dbasch	ticking: you can manipulate the source to a large extent, depending on what you want to do, without expanding reader macros
15:15	ticking	justin_smith: I agree for most reader macros, but not for example for quasiquote
15:16	justin_smith	ticking: you would rather manually do what quasiquote does yourself, rather than use the expanded and resolved version of the form?
15:16	PigDude	justin_smith: thanks, i was working on a macro but couldn't quite get it to work, i'll have to paste it when i do later :)
15:17	justin_smith	PigDude: np, I was considering a macro a last resort, what I have there could easily be wrapped in a convenience macro to avoid creating a thunk manually though
15:17	ticking	justin_smith: no, I rather had ` turn to (quasiquote
15:18	llasram	ticking: Maybe orthogonal to what you're saying, but have you seen https://github.com/brandonbloom/backtick ?
15:18	ticking	llasram: not yet thanks, this seems very interesting
15:19	ticking	justin_smith: I'm not against all the syntactic niceties and shorthands, I just think they should be a more direct representation of the read intermiary
15:20	ticking	s/intermiary/intermediary
15:21	ticking	There are things like indentation, I would rather leave to the editor completely
15:21	justin_smith	ticking: so you want more granularity in where one can intervene?
15:21	l3dx	https://gist.github.com/tskardal/e189daf48e971e2a3197 - how can I solve this in a better way? the result of this is a seq of JPanels
15:22	l3dx	or should I perhaps just ignore the return value. it's mutated after all
15:22	dbasch	l3dx: you shouldn’t be using for, you should have a loop
15:22	ticking	justin_smith: basically, I want a more straightforward and simpler intermediary representation that retains more properties of the written code
15:22	dbasch	l3dx: for is for creating sequences, you want side effects
15:23	ticking	justin_smith: the worst in this regard is the meta reader I think ^, it outputs datastructures with metadata directly
15:25	amalloy	dbasch: well, doseq
15:26	amalloy	ticking: so you want sjacket or something? wanting something that understands clojure's textual layout is nice, but if that's all you want i don't understand the railing against homoiconicity
15:26	dbasch	amalloy: or dotimes, in this case
15:26	amalloy	dbasch: he'll probably want to use x and y in the real code
15:27	l3dx	dbasch: ok, so how would I achieve the same x-y-loop?
15:28	dbasch	l3dx: (doseq [x (range (:witdh game) ….
15:28	justin_smith	l3dx: do what amalloy suggests and switch out for for dotimes, dotimes has the same syntax but it is done for side effects and returns nil and isn't lazy
15:28	clojurebot	In Ordnung
15:28	l3dx	aah, so not the actual loop function
15:28	justin_smith	err, I meant doseq, unless you need the numbers
15:28	l3dx	as in loop/recur
15:29	llasram	clojurebot: dotimes has the same syntax but it?
15:29	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
15:29	llasram	Ok, so the whole thing then
15:29	l3dx	thanks
15:29	dbasch	l3dx: yes, I meant a loop in the generic sense
15:30	ticking	amalloy: what I'm saying is that the smarter the reader macros get, the more removed the source code will be from the read datastructure will be. And this means less homoiconicity as wikipedia defines it "is a property ... in which the program structure is similar to its syntax, and ... internal representation can be inferred by reading the text..."
15:30	ticking	s/will be/
15:30	arrdem	ticking: so really this is a long argument against context sensitive macros, which are a bad idea anyway.
15:31	AWizzArd	Anyone here who was using naive bayes on mnist?
15:32	amalloy	aw man. it turns out that you can use emacs to browse a jar inside of a tgz, but if you try to read any files inside the jar, unzip breaks
15:32	justin_smith	sounds like an emacs bug
15:35	ticking	arrdem: theres nothing wrong with context sensitivity as long as it is expressed in the read datastructure to be executed by regular macros and not as a reader macro to be executed before it is data
15:36	ticking	arrdem: you should be able to read a code file, serialize it again and not go "WTF", that is my metric here
15:40	Glenjamin	what actually happens if you read-string with a syntax quote?
15:40	amalloy	~tias
15:40	clojurebot	Try it and see! You'll get results faster than asking someone in #clojure to evaluate it for you, and you'll get that warm, fuzzy feeling of self-reliance.
15:41	Glenjamin	,(read-string "`(~@a)")
15:41	clojurebot	(clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat a))
15:41	amalloy	&`(foo ~@bar ~baz) ;; a shortcut
15:41	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: bar in this context
15:41	amalloy	&'`(foo ~@bar ~baz)
15:41	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list (quote clojure.core/foo)) bar (clojure.core/list baz)))
15:41	justin_smith	,,(read-string "`+")
15:41	clojurebot	(quote clojure.core/+)
15:41	amalloy	guys why are you using read-string
15:41	amalloy	just use quote. that's what it's for
15:41	Glenjamin	because of the homoiconicity discussion
15:41	justin_smith	he asked a question about read-string
15:42	amalloy	(read-string "foo") is the same as 'foo, for all foo
15:42	cbp	(inc amalloy)
15:42	lazybot	⇒ 117
15:43	ticking	even worse
15:43	ticking	'(defn ^Integer len [^String x] (.length x))
15:43	Glenjamin	,'(defn ^Integer len [^String x] (.length x))
15:43	clojurebot	(defn len [x] (.length x))
15:44	ticking	ah sorry I'm a bit distracted yeah thanks ^^
15:44	ticking	so where did the meta go?
15:44	Glenjamin	,(binding [with-meta true] '(defn ^Integer len [^String x] (.length x)))
15:44	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve var: with-meta in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
15:44	ticking	,(meta (second '(defn ^Integer len [^String x] (.length x))))
15:44	clojurebot	{:tag Integer}
15:44	ticking	ah there it is
15:44	Bronsa	,(binding [print-meta true] (pr '(defn ^Integer len [^String x] (.length x))))
15:44	clojurebot	(defn ^Integer len [^String x] (.length x))
15:44	Glenjamin	^^ thats the one
15:45	ticking	yeah but that means that no database that we currently use in clojure can hold our code
15:46	Bronsa	:\|
15:46	ticking	we either have metas in syntax, which it won't be able to read, or we have metas attached to the symbols, which it will probably disgard, because they are not part of the value
15:47	arrdem	or we could just have a more honest print that displays metas so that round tripping code is honest...
15:47	arrdem	s/honest/an identity operation/g
15:47	amalloy	arrdem: you won't like all the :line metadata that gets printed
15:47	arrdem	amalloy: I'm well aware of all the metadata that'd get spewed.
15:48	Bronsa	and if you use tools.reader you get :line, :column, :end-line, :end-column, :file and maybe even :source !
15:48	arrdem	Bronsa: yeah... source containing source.... this'll end well
15:49	Bronsa	arrdem: https://github.com/clojure/tools.reader/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/reader/reader_types.clj#L294
15:50	arrdem	Bronsa: what are you doing to that poor var...
15:50	Bronsa	arrdem: to my defense I didn't write that code
15:51	devn	technomancy: do you know how many hits clojars.org gets/day?
15:51	Bronsa	arrdem: it's a way to get an anonymous Var
15:51	technomancy	devn: I have numbers that are a year and a half old; want 'em?
15:52	devn	yeah that'd be cool
15:52	arrdem	Bronsa: hum....
15:52	technomancy	https://www.refheap.com/6193
15:52	amalloy	Bronsa: what about with-local-vars? ##(with-local-vars [x 1] x)
15:52	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! class clojure.lang.Var is bad!
15:53	technomancy	devn: wait, do you mean the web app or the repository?
15:53	amalloy	,(with-local-vars [x 1] x)
15:53	clojurebot	#<Var: --unnamed-->
15:54	Bronsa	amalloy: uh it didn't occur to me that vars created with with-local-vars could escape the with-local-vars scope
15:54	technomancy	hm; that might not be all that useful
15:54	amalloy	i don't actually know if it works, but it probably does
15:54	Bronsa	yeah looking at the source now, it's just Var/create + bindings around the body
15:54	amalloy	,(let [v (with-local-vars [x 1] x)] (with-bindings [v 2] @v))
15:54	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Var cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IMapEntry>
15:55	amalloy	,(let [v (with-local-vars [x 1] x)] (with-bindings {v 2} @v))
15:55	clojurebot	2
15:55	amalloy	magic!
15:55	ticking	arrdem Bronsa: so yeah, I'm not saying all is lost, a more honest print might be a good idea, but I think being able to put code into databases and query it would be really awesome, and putting nodes a la {:type :vector :contents foo} really seems like too much
15:55	Bronsa	yeah well, I still prefer (Var/create 1) to (with-local-vars [x 1] x) :)
15:55	amalloy	wimp
15:55	amalloy	interop is the easy way out
15:55	Glenjamin	isn't that what codex does?
15:56	Glenjamin	maybe not codex
15:56	arrdem	amalloy: does it matter? it reaches in to the same var class anyway, just through a clojure core fn instead...
15:56	Glenjamin	what was that git history clojure datomic thing called?
15:56	llasram	codeq
15:56	ticking	yeah
15:57	Bronsa	I wish (var x) was (the-var x) so var could be Var/create
15:57	amalloy	arrdem: it doesn't matter
15:57	bbloom	Bronsa: isn't Var/create == intenr ?
15:57	amalloy	i would use Var/create instead of with-local-vars
15:57	bbloom	intern*
15:57	amalloy	bbloom: no, that needs a name
15:57	amalloy	puts it into a namespace, etc etc
15:57	bbloom	(doc intern)
15:57	Bronsa	bbloom: no, Var/create returns an anonymous Var instance
15:57	clojurebot	"([ns name] [ns name val]); Finds or creates a var named by the symbol name in the namespace ns (which can be a symbol or a namespace), setting its root binding to val if supplied. The namespace must exist. The var will adopt any metadata from the name symbol. Returns the var."
15:58	bbloom	(doc the-var)
15:58	clojurebot	Huh?
15:58	bbloom	yeah, ok, "or creates"
15:59	ticking	Glenjamin: but I think they are only code aware and don't dump it all in the database, the orgmode readme contains a lot of questionmarks on ast vs strings
15:59	gfredericks	cemerick: I pung; I was pondering NREPL-53 and was wondering if it's valid to say that nrepl middleware ordering boils down to a basic topological sort; once the op-vs-var thing is normalized
15:59	bbloom	Bronsa: Var/create doesn't need to be primitive or anything, does it? i don't understand your wish :-P
15:59	Bronsa	bbloom: what I meant is, I wish the `var` special form was called `the-var` so that we could have a `var` function that created an anonymous Var, just like we have `atom`, `ref` etc
15:59	Bronsa	bbloom: I'd rather write (var 1) than (clojure.lang.Var/create 1) :P
15:59	gtrak	gfredericks: I think I'm running into issues there
15:59	bbloom	Bronsa: ah, i see. you mean for un-named thread locals
15:59	bbloom	gotcha
16:00	Bronsa	yep
16:00	gtrak	apparently nrepl middleware and gary don't mix
16:00	bbloom	sorry, came to the conversation a step late :-)
16:01	gtrak	gfredericks: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/clojure/nUBBbYZHuTE/ScLBH-A2HkoJ
16:01	bbloom	yeah, vars are a bit... dare i say... complected
16:02	bbloom	namespace + state management combined
16:06	amalloy	i propose that instead of using reflection to resolve unhinted interop, clojure just assumes you meant String
16:06	amalloy	that seems like the #1 cause of reflection warnings
16:08	dbasch	amalloy: it would be interesting to run a test on all the artifacts on clojars and see if that’s indeed the case
16:09	amalloy	dbasch: i think String would constitute about 50% of all interop
16:09	amalloy	but you can't really test it in an automated way
16:10	bbloom	amalloy: you probably could with eclj
16:10	bbloom	amalloy: but not realistically yet, b/c all clojure.core usage is considered interop lol
16:15	arrdem	Bronsa: thinking about the AOT stuff, my gut is that class compilation should just emit a seq of [classname bytecode] pairs and that subsequent classloading or lack thereof should be its own thing as opposed to the implicit classloading that t.e.jvm does now. thoughts?
16:17	Bronsa	arrdem: that's not going to work as tej works right now, control doesn't return to t.e.j/eval for all fns unfortunately.
16:19	gfredericks	gtrak: hooray it's not just me
16:19	gtrak	was planning to spend a couple days on it sometime in the next few weeks
16:19	gtrak	it's really holding back cider.
16:19	gtrak	or at least, my lack of understanding it is holding back cider.
16:19	Bronsa	arrdem: an option could be to make the class-loading mechanism configurable using an option on the emit frame, so maybe (e/emit (a/analyze ..) {:loader-fn (fn [loader class-name bytecode] (.defineClass loader class-name bytecode))} ..)
16:20	gfredericks	gtrak: it weirds me out that this doesn't blow up for normal people
16:20	gtrak	I think that normal people don't futz with middlewares yet.
16:20	Bronsa	arrdem: that way you could roll your own loader-fn and put the [class-name bytecode] tuples in an atom maybe
16:20	gtrak	except to you know, like just add one.
16:20	arrdem	Bronsa: that'd probably work. I'm gonna break for food and I'll play with it once I'm back.
16:21	Bronsa	arrdem: ok
16:21	gfredericks	gtrak: right, but why doesn't this issue apply to existing sets of middlewares?
16:21	gtrak	gfredericks: my workaround was to collect all the expects and requires from a bunch of middlewares and generate a single middleware.
16:21	gfredericks	gtrak: i.e., reimplement the ordering yourself? :D
16:21	gtrak	heh yes.
16:21	gtrak	but that's a big change for me not understanding the implications.
16:22	Bronsa	arrdem: are you a clojure contrib member? if so you can go ahead and make the changes you need to t.e.j in a branch if you want
16:24	arrdem	Bronsa: I've had my CA in for a while, don't think I have contrib access tho. I asked tb++ about it a while back and it sounded like something that wasn't gonna happen for whatever reason.
16:24	arrdem	so... shrug
16:25	arrdem	probably something I should bug Alex M. about.
16:25	gfredericks	gtrak: we should flip a coin to see who has to fix it
16:26	gtrak	gfredericks: I'll end up fixing it in a few weeks unless you beat me to it. been really busy.
16:26	gtrak	but first I have to make some test-cases.
16:26	gfredericks	gtrak: you saw my code on the ticket?
16:26	gtrak	yea
16:27	gtrak	i did something similar.
16:27	gtrak	i don't even remember.
16:27	gtrak	:-) it's a mess.
16:27	gfredericks	did you observe nondeterminism or just incorrectness?
16:27	Bronsa	arrdem: yeah, I don't really know how any of this stuff should work but try asking Alex, I wouldn't have a problem letting you push your changes in a separate branch
16:27	gtrak	incorrectness.
16:27	gtrak	I didn't try multiple JVMs
16:28	gtrak	gfredericks: I would expect a behavior that throws an error if constraints can't be met, at least a warning.
16:28	gtrak	with the conflicting constraints.
16:28	gfredericks	gtrak: I didn't think my constraints were even conflicting
16:28	gtrak	mine either.
16:28	gtrak	it made no sense.
16:29	gtrak	but the result was totally wrong.
16:29	gtrak	or at least it didn't match my understanding
16:29	gtrak	_something_ was wrong.
16:30	gfredericks	fo sho
16:30	gfredericks	I wasn't able to wrap my head around the code so far
16:30	gfredericks	I was hoping that given two middlewares the info would boil down to a partial order
16:31	gfredericks	can't tell looking at the code if that's the case
16:31	gtrak	me neither, I might try reimplementing it.
16:31	gtrak	like I said, on the order of a couple days' work.
16:31	gtrak	hopefully before we have to push a cider release.
16:33	gtrak	it seems like these tooling projects have lots of good ideas that are half-finished :-)
16:33	gtrak	for instance the elisp bencode impl couldn't handle nesting before I got to it.
16:33	gfredericks	that must be less dire than it sounds
16:34	gtrak	well, nesting's a nice thing to want to have.
16:34	gtrak	which is why I had to realize that pain for myself.
16:34	gtrak	and this is why we can't have nice things.
16:36	{blake}	Hey, all: I have a question about some code I've written. (ref: https://www.refheap.com/86286) In particular, I feel like it's cheap to have to call "flatten" and especially "remove nil?". Any thoughts?
16:37	joegallo	{blake}: i believe you could collapse your let and if up into the for itself (as :let and :when)
16:37	{blake}	I know I could get the "remove nil?" out if I tested the return but I can't see a non-clunky way to do that.
16:37	gtrak	gfredericks: I've even started thinking about what it would take to implement these things in CLJS or possibly CLR :-)
16:37	gtrak	which is a whole can of worms.
16:37	{blake}	joegallo, thanks, lemme try that out...
16:37	joegallo	then you wouldn't have to remove the nils from the result, because they wouldn't have been generated by the for
16:38	{blake}	Well, but...hmmm.
16:39	llasram	{blake}: It looks to me like this may be one of the circumstances where you want a manual `lazy-seq`
16:40	{blake}	llasram: A manual lazy-seq...like calling "lazy-seq" directly?
16:40	llasram	Yes
16:41	llasram	Oh, except... the recursion is essentially depth-first?
16:41	{blake}	llasram: OK, I'll check that out, too.
16:41	zoldar	{blake}: you could also make use of destructuring in let bindings
16:41	{blake}	zoldar, ok makes list
16:42	gfredericks	gtrak: so many cans
16:43	zoldar	{blake}: that's partly a matter of personal preference but I would rather use full names rather than abberviations, even when the scope is small
16:43	{blake}	zoldar, not sure I follow...you mean full names instead of "t", "c" and "tt"?
16:44	zoldar	{blake}: yes
16:45	{blake}	zoldar, I get that. I'm not sure where I come down on it yet. If I use full names, I find myself wondering if I'm thinking too concretely.
16:46	amalloy	{blake}: the flatten is particularly outrageous, as you suspected. i'd write something like https://www.refheap.com/61d3a3c7f691c1f26c8084770, although i agree about the names t, c, tt; i added x only because i don't know what the right name is in your context
16:47	zoldar	{blake}: overall, you could move the code working with a single element of collection (the one in for form) to a separate function - and instead of using flatten and for you could use a form like (into {} (map ... pz-xml))
16:47	{blake}	amalloy: You agree with zoldar about using full names?
16:48	{blake}	Ah, yes, I see that you've fleshed them out. =P
16:51	cemerick	gfredericks: generally and IIRC. There's a set of reasonably complex nREPL issues that were started a week or two ago I haven't looked at in detail, that's one of them.
16:52	{blake}	amalloy, I don't think I get "for [{:keys [tag content]} pz-xml..." You're iterating over pz-xml and pulling out the keys, is that right? Then destructuring tag and content from them?
16:52	zoldar	{blake}: erm, of course the second part of my last advice is wrong, ignore it
16:53	{blake}	zoldar, OK. It usually takes me a while to go through the advice queue and quasi-understand it. Heh.
16:53	amalloy	are you asking about :keys destructuring in general, or about what it's doing inside a for, or...?
16:56	amalloy	actually, i'm off to lunch. but the basic point is: anytime you give something a name, you can destructure it instead. [{:keys [x y z]} foo] is a destructuring form that says "look up (:x foo), (:y foo), and (:z foo), and create locals named x, y, and z for them"
16:56	{blake}	amalloy: thanks...I think that answers it
17:05	zoldar	{blake}: in case you haven't heard about it yet, 4clojure.com is pretty fun way to learn idioms of the language. It's pretty useful to follow a couple of top participants to see what they have come up with after solving a given problem yourself. I remember that amalloy's solutions in particular were pretty damn nice.
17:07	mdeboard	The map destructuring bind syntax is particularly hard to remember IMO
17:08	mordocai	zoldar: Thanks for that! I'm just lurking in this channel and going through The Joy of Clojure. Looks like 4clojure.com will be very helpful to "master" clojure.
17:08	mdeboard	[{:keys [x y z]} foo] ... lots of syntax
17:08	arrdem	mdeboard: :keys, :as and :or aren't too bad, IMO
17:09	arrdem	it's just a mapping datastructure from keys to local symbols
17:09	zoldar	mordocai: my pleasure
17:09	mdeboard	Well, it's just remembering whether to use parens, braces, brackets, "Is 'keys' a keyword? I forgot"
17:09	zoldar	mordocai: however thanks should go to the authors
17:09	mordocai	zoldar: Of course, but thanks for letting me know about it :P
17:10	mdeboard	The function parameter syntax in general is tough forme to remember
17:10	mdeboard	When you get into optional arguments, destructuring, etc.
17:11	noonian	[{:keys [x y z]} foo] could also be written [{x :x, y :y, z :z} foo] btw, :keys :as and :or is nice sugar to keep it concise(ish)
17:13	zoldar	mordocai: another option is clojure track on exercism.io however I'm not sure how active it is now
17:14	mordocai	zoldar: You said you liked amalloy's solutions on 4clojure, do you remember what username they are under? Don't see amalloy or related username that I can tell. (I would ask amalloy but looks like they are AFK)
17:14	{blake}	zoldar, I've done about 60-70 of the 4Clojure exercises. I didn't find it all that useful. I might now, though, knowing more about Clojure.
17:15	zoldar	{blake}: heh, I've just logged in and don't see him either...
17:16	{blake}	mordocai, I think he's under amalloy, at least as far as submitting problems.
17:16	dbasch	{blake}: there’s a point at which 4clojure becomes more about programming puzzles than the language, probably 60-70 is about right before you’re better off with a real project
17:17	zoldar	{blake}: ah, you have to switch to show all
17:17	dbasch	{blake}: imo, the most useful ones are the ones that make you reimplement features of the language (e.g. comp, juxt)
17:17	{blake}	dbasch, Exactly. There's also a point =before= where you're just throwing stuff together to see if you can make something come out, which has limited use. (At least, that's what =I= ended up doing. =P)
17:17	{blake}	dbasch, true, and those are the hardest, IMO.
17:18	zoldar	dbasch: yeah, there's even an (optional) code golf contest
17:20	zoldar	oops just realized that I've mixed up names when messaging, sorry
17:21	llasram	~guards
17:21	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
17:21	arrdem	~gourds
17:21	zoldar	:)
17:21	arrdem	aaaaand bot ignored
17:21	llasram	Huh
17:21	arrdem	this is getting old.
17:21	llasram	Oh, are you on clojurebot's naughty list some how, arrdem ?
17:22	arrdem	llasram: apparently.
17:22	llasram	hiredman: ?
17:22	gtrak	~gourds
17:22	clojurebot	SQUEEZE HIM!
17:22	hiredman	llasram: ?
17:23	llasram	Just wondering arrdem's status on clojurebot's secret naughty list
17:23	llasram	Seeeeecrets
17:24	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/blob/master/clojurebot-facts/src/clojurebot/facts.clj#L74
17:24	llasram	s,secret,well-publicized,
17:24	arrdem	well damn.
17:25	gtrak	up there with bitemyapp, that's harsh.
17:25	arrdem	yeah... I'm actually offended somewhat.
17:26	gtrak	what did you do?
17:26	arrdem	no idea... best guess is that I wrote too many factoids. shrug
17:28	dbasch	arrdem: you should write your own bot, with blackjack and hookers
17:28	dbasch	arrdem: call it bender
17:28	arrdem	dbasch: meh... priorities.
17:28	llasram	Or just submit a polite and apologetic PR to hiredman :-)
17:29	dbasch	everybody should write an irc bot once, it’s fun
17:29	arrdem	dbasch: I already did mine. in perl and irssi. never again.
17:29	dbasch	I did mine in Ruby
17:29	arrdem	dbasch: the good news is that the pentesters in the channel it lurked never did manage to exploit it :D
17:30	{blake}	I did one in Delphi.
17:36	knur	:)
17:40	pcn	Does anyone know the record uptime for a windows box?
17:44	amalloy	it can't be an official record unless a beer company verifies it
17:48	arrdem	well you can write a Θ bound for it, based on the first sale of MS-DOS...
17:57	dbasch	arrdem: you can do better than that, the development of Windows started in 1982
18:08	justin_smith	I'm picturing that Owl from the tootsie roll commercial, starting up a windows box, getting a blue screen after two minutes: "two. two minutes"
18:09	dbasch	asking about the machine with the most windows uptime is a bit like wondering who’s the tallest midget to ever live
18:10	amalloy	dbasch: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Rainer
18:10	justin_smith	http://raamdev.com/2007/another-best-personal-windows-uptime/ here is a guy bragging about 131 days
18:11	TimMc	hahaha
18:11	gtrak	mine runs fine except it freaking reboots itself.
18:11	gtrak	when updates are pushed.
18:11	dbasch	amalloy: actually I remember that guy from the first edition of the Guinness book of records I got when I was a kid
18:11	dbasch	along with Robert Wadlow
18:11	mordocai	Meh, my linux uptime isn't that great because I am an update-aholoic so I reboot for kernel/libc updates regularly. Better than being forced to reboot though.
18:14	TimMc	Yeah, critical patches ruin uptime whether you're forced to reboot or do it voluntarily. :-/
18:15	dbasch	“The earliest application of the Game Oriented Assembly Lisp (GOAL) programming tool, was the original Jak and Daxter game.” <— Guinness record
18:16	kenrestivo	btw, it's not just windows. a friend with a macbook air, had problems with network connectivity, and was told by the "genius" at the apple store to reboot his macbook every few days to solve that
18:17	teslanick	What does #' indicate? e.g. #'app ?
18:18	amalloy	,'#'app
18:18	clojurebot	(var app)
18:18	amalloy	if there's some reader syntax that confuses you, you can just put a quote in front of it and see what it expands to
18:19	teslanick	I didn't know that, thans!
18:20	dbasch	teslanick: #’ is a reader macro called var-quote
18:21	dbasch	teslanick: those are hard to google, you can find them here: http://clojure.org/reader#The%20Reader--Macro%20characters
18:21	teslanick	That's precisely why I asked -- it would be impossible to google for it. ;)
18:23	kenrestivo	,'#inst "2014-05-01"
18:23	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
18:23	cbp	hmm why is that denied
18:24	whodidthis	mysteries of the universe, why is (compojure.core/defroutes them-routes ...) given to ring-handler as #'them-routes
18:25	cbp	whodidthis: so you can modify them at runtime
18:26	amalloy	cbp: maybe clojurebot knows that j.u.Date is garbage, and he's trying to protect you
18:29	cbp	you might take my j.u.Date from me clojurebot but you will never take my freedom
18:29	sdegutis	TIL that (future (doall (repeatedly some-fn-that-throws-exception))) silently stops unless you put in a try/catch.
18:35	cbp	sdegutis: it might be that its just not done yet
18:35	cbp	sdegutis: can only make sure its done by dereferencing it
18:35	sdegutis	cbp: It doesn't take this many hours for an EC2 server to download a 1.5 GB file.
18:36	amalloy	well, it can never be done, since he asked for an infinite amount of work
18:36	sdegutis	amalloy: semantics
18:36	cbp	amalloy: but it throws so it will be done at the first step
18:36	PigDude	is this normal multimethod usage when other namespaces are defining methods? the :require [tex-mex] feels weird: https://www.refheap.com/83d9d77c079836d461c129c84
18:38	amalloy	that's basically what you have to do, PigDude. you can include a comment explaining that it's for loading method definitions
18:38	cbp	sdegutis: i guess i mean started rather than done
18:39	cbp	so it's not failing silently just not doing much at all
18:39	amalloy	also, namespaces with no . in them are bad juju. so like, you'd want awesome.cookbook and recipes.tex-mex or something
18:39	PigDude	amalloy: and it's that way for protocols as well?
18:39	dbasch	sdegutis: that’s a very strange way to keep calling a function until it fails btw
18:39	sdegutis	dbasch: it should never fail.
18:39	PigDude	amalloy: yea i was justhammering out this example for you all
18:39	amalloy	dbasch: but it's nice because it guarantees that it will fail!
18:39	dbasch	sdegutis: then how does it end?
18:39	amalloy	because he's saving its results in a doall, and he'll eventually run out of ram for them
18:40	cbp	:-P
18:40	sdegutis	dbasch: it's how we run infinite background-processes in the website until I can get this infrastructure tool working for EC2 and spin up a new server for that
18:40	sdegutis	amalloy: the results are nil afaik, but yeah, good point, I shouldn't use a doall
18:40	dbasch	infinite background processes? Wow, you must have a high aws bill :P
18:41	amalloy	sdegutis: infinitely many nils still take up infinite space
18:41	dbasch	my iinstances are limited to 10^100 processes
18:41	sdegutis	Hmm.
18:41	sdegutis	No no no, not a unix process, just a task.
18:41	sdegutis	To run in a new Java thread.
18:42	dbasch	sdegutis: that’s better, I can do 10^300 threads
18:42	amalloy	10^100 processes, huh? that's the kind of number only like google could handle
18:42	cbp	10^100 processes? that's not even enough to compile haskell!
18:42	dbasch	I need them, I’m trying to list all bitcoin keys
18:42	arrdem	dbasch: y u build rainbow tbls n brk blockchain. y u do dis.
18:43	amalloy	c'mon guys, play along. 10^100? google? googol? i'm dying here
18:43	dbasch	amalloy: that’s the kind of joke they’d love at the 10^(10^100)
18:43	amalloy	rimshot
18:44	arrdem	amalloy: no it's ~rimshot
18:44	amalloy	i don't let clojurebot steal my glory
18:44	cbp	too bad arrdem can't do it
18:44	arrdem	cbp: I'll build my own bot with blackjack and hookers...
18:45	PigDude	anyhow thanks amalloy :)
18:48	PigDude	i researched this other quesiton i had a lot and couldn't find an answer either: how do you bind something in a macro that is private to the macro?
18:49	PigDude	i can output values with ~() but i can't share them with other ~() expansions
18:50	amalloy	PigDude: i don't really understand the question. are you looking for something more sophisticated than auto-gensyms?
18:50	PigDude	more specifically, to define a function (as a curiosity) that accepted some gensym-named arguments and then uses them somewhere in its body
18:50	PigDude	amalloy: well v# works fine when you know ahead of time how many you have
18:51	PigDude	amalloy: but if i generate this list of symbols, then i want to do (map gensym (somthing))
18:51	PigDude	and use it around the function
18:52	PigDude	i thought it was a stupid question but i couldn't figure out how to define some data in the macro and use it twice, basically: (defmacro m [x] (let [x* (inc x)] ...)) <- no trace of x/x* should be in the macro-expanded form
18:52	amalloy	you can certainly do that. just (let [names (repeatedly n gensym)] `(fn [~@names] (+ ~@names))) or whatever
18:52	amalloy	PigDude: what you've just written is the answer to your question
18:52	PigDude	(defmacro m [] (let [names (repeatedly n gensym)] `(fn [~@names] (+ ~@names)))
18:52	PigDude	, (defmacro m [] (let [names (repeatedly n gensym)] `(fn [~@names] (+ ~@names)))) (m [1 2 3])
18:52	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: n in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
18:52	amalloy	x and x* only live in the macro's scope, they don't get emitted
18:52	PigDude	, (defmacro m [n] (let [names (repeatedly n gensym)] `(fn [~@names] (+ ~@names)))) (m [1 2 3])
18:52	clojurebot	#'sandbox/m
18:53	PigDude	ah right only one at a time
18:53	PigDude	,(macroexpand-1 '(m [1 2 3]))
18:53	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
18:53	amalloy	,((m 5) 1 2 3 4 5)
18:53	clojurebot	15
18:53	PigDude	amalloy: oh ok so i was only seeing them because i was using macroexpand-1?
18:53	PigDude	amalloy: of course!
18:54	amalloy	PigDude: no, if you saw them in macroexpand, they were in the emitted source
18:54	amalloy	presumably because you let them inside of the syntax-quote, instead of outside it
18:54	amalloy	,(macroexpand-1 '(m 5))
18:54	clojurebot	(clojure.core/fn [G__131 G__132 G__133 G__134 G__135] (clojure.core/+ G__131 G__132 G__133 G__134 ...))
18:55	amalloy	note that `names` doesn't exist in there anywhere
18:57	PigDude	right
18:59	PigDude	amalloy: i was writing this macro earlier and having a tough time for some reason, i think it's because i was expanding with the wrong function
19:00	PigDude	,(defmacro fnn [f n] (let [syms (repeatedly n gensym)] `(fn [~@syms] (~f ~@syms))))
19:00	clojurebot	#'sandbox/fnn
19:01	PigDude	,(defmacro fnn [f n] (let [syms (repeatedly n gensym)] `(fn [~@syms & _#] (~f ~@syms))))
19:01	clojurebot	#'sandbox/fnn
19:01	PigDude	,((fnn identity 1) 1 2 3)
19:01	clojurebot	1
19:17	amalloy	gross. (merge) and (merge-with f) return nil instead of {}
19:20	technomancy	amalloy: same thing
19:20	gfredericks	yeah name six circumstances where nil doesn't act like {}
19:20	gfredericks	you can't do it.
19:20	gfredericks	case closed.
19:20	amalloy	gfredericks: well, i took over a codebase where someone loved to write (m k) instead of (k m)
19:20	gfredericks	delete the codebase
19:21	amalloy	working on it
19:21	gfredericks	w00t clojure legacy code
19:22	amalloy	also, using map! (map some-map [:x :y :z])
19:22	technomancy	~gourds
19:22	clojurebot	SQUEEZE HIM!
19:22	gfredericks	amalloy: I think that's the same root cause
19:22	gfredericks	so you're still short five
19:23	amalloy	gfredericks: well, obviously. the main root cause is "calling it as a function"
19:23	gfredericks	yes
19:23	amalloy	but while (m k) is more or less indefensible, passing it as a function to something else is reasonable
19:23	gfredericks	ah ha okay
19:23	amalloy	but, okay, challenge accepted: (instance? Map nil)
19:23	gfredericks	I think (m k) is defensible actually
19:23	amalloy	gfredericks: not when k is a literal keyword
19:24	gfredericks	true dat
19:24	gfredericks	I think there are two primary map usages -- record-like and map-like
19:24	gfredericks	for record-like, use the keyword as a function; for map-like, use the map as a function, at least if you know it's a PHM; otherwise use get
19:24	gfredericks	anyhow you're up to 2
19:25	amalloy	i usually use get anyway. you never know when some madman like technomancy or gfredericks will say "psh nil is just like a map"
19:25	gfredericks	you can't just find more superclasses of PHM either
19:25	gfredericks	nil is just like an empty string
19:25	amalloy	okay. passing it to java code
19:25	gfredericks	nil; it's just like <html></html>
19:26	gfredericks	clojurebot: nil is just like an empty picnic basket
19:26	clojurebot	c'est bon!
19:26	amalloy	and uh, (when opts (use-opts)), where opts is a map or nil
19:26	technomancy	amalloy: in general I hate sloppiness around nil semantics, but you can usually get away with it when it's a conflation between nil and a collection
19:26	technomancy	nillable scalar values are a bucket of hurt though
19:27	gfredericks	technomancy: that is an interesting distinction
19:27	amalloy	gfredericks: comparing for equality, hashing, using as a key in a map: those three just count as one, but they count
19:27	technomancy	gfredericks: well most collection stuff just calls get or seq on the arg anyway
19:27	amalloy	so i think i'm at 5
19:27	technomancy	*the moral equivalent of get
19:27	gfredericks	guys I use C-t all the time
19:27	amalloy	oh, and calling conj/into
19:28	amalloy	gfredericks: i rebound C-t to transpose-sexps, because i'm a typing wizard who never transposes characters
19:28	gfredericks	only whole sexps
19:28	amalloy	well, i change my mind a lot
19:28	gfredericks	clojurebot: amalloy is a typing who wizard only sexps transposes
19:28	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
19:29	amalloy	clojurebot: gfredericks is a sexp wizard who only types transpositions
19:29	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
19:29	technomancy	I used to have C-t as my screen prefix
19:30	technomancy	so I was blind to the usefulness of character transpositions
19:30	technomancy	(dec so)
19:30	lazybot	⇒ -27
19:32	amalloy	i'm surprised there's anything with a score of -27 in lazybot's karma db
19:32	technomancy	decing so is a time-honored #clojure tradition
19:33	cbp	$karma bitemyapp
19:33	lazybot	bitemyapp has karma 16.
19:33	cbp	$karma callen
19:33	lazybot	callen has karma 15.
19:35	amalloy	so has the lowest karma score of anything
19:35	amalloy	java is in 4th with -4
19:36	amalloy	actually, let's limit this to #clojure. java is second with a score of -4. javascript hot on its heels with -3
19:36	technomancy	(dec javascript)
19:36	lazybot	⇒ -4
19:37	nullptr	$karma IE
19:37	lazybot	IE has karma 0.
19:37	amalloy	after that they start getting silly, with things like "n", "%2", and "also"
19:37	technomancy	lazybot: that's how you know this isn't a web-centric channel
19:37	amalloy	but i see clojuredocs has -1
19:37	technomancy	err
19:37	technomancy	^ nullptr
19:38	amalloy	lazybot: look at technomancy when he's speaking to you
19:38	nullptr	technomancy: true enough ... in our company's general dev chat IE has -162 ... still falls short of outlook's -430 (notice a theme?)
19:38	technomancy	abject despair?
19:38	amalloy	you guys like negative numbers?
19:38	nullptr	(inc technomancy)
19:38	lazybot	⇒ 110
19:39	xy86	has anyone here used instaparse?
19:39	nullptr	as in all channels, negative karma is for technologies, positive karma is for people
19:39	cbp	also was a nick on this channel
19:39	cbp	like so
19:39	technomancy	maybe so is short for "also"
19:40	amalloy	~anyone
19:40	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
19:40	gfredericks	xy86: we're using it at work
19:41	xy86	gfredericks: i dont see anyhwere in the docs how to get line the line number from a node as the result of a parse
19:42	gfredericks	xy86: I actually don't know anything about it I just wanted everybody to know I was a hipster
19:42	gfredericks	the other guy on my team wrote the code :)
19:48	kwertii	I have a project where “lein uberjar” fails with “Compilation failed: Subprocess failed”. (“lein compile” seems to work fine.) Is there any way to make “lein uberjar” print more information on what exactly is failing?
19:52	technomancy	kwertii: try `lein with-profile uberjar compile`
19:53	kwertii	technomancy: “Warning: profile :uberjar not found.”
19:54	kwertii	other than that, no errors
19:56	technomancy	huh... try applying profile isolation; see the end of the faq
20:04	kwertii	OK, trying
20:19	AWizzArd	I am experiencing a strange error message. Perhaps someone saw it before. I have a (defrecord MNIST [label digit]). When I have a (def x (MNIST. 10 20)) I can do (.label ^MNIST x). Works fine.
20:20	AWizzArd	However, I have a vector data, and when I (doseq [element data] (.label ^MNIST element)) I get an error: test.MNIST cannot be cast to test.MNIST
20:21	Bronsa	AWizzArd: that probably means that you evaluated twice the defrecord
20:21	Bronsa	and you created the vector with those instances before re-evaluating the defrecord
20:22	AWizzArd	Bronsa: okay, that sounds good. I will restart my jvm, perhaps I indeed played with it.
20:26	AWizzArd	Bronsa: Yes, works. Thx!
20:27	AWizzArd	Bronsa: cause when I reloaded the file (in emacs, C-c C-k) it found again my defrecord.
20:28	AWizzArd	Is there some “defoncerecord”?
20:28	AWizzArd	I constantly reload my test file but did a defonce on my data file, as the import takes nearly 30 seconds.
20:31	AWizzArd	(when-not (ns-resolve ns 'MNIST) (defrecord MNIST [label digit]))
20:33	AWizzArd	Maybe the Clojure compiler could check when it sees a defrecord if such a record already exists. In such a case it won’t have to be replaced.
20:33	AWizzArd	If the fields didn’t change there would be no need to over-define the existing one.
20:34	AWizzArd	My when-not doesn’t work, it replaces the defrecord anyway.
20:35	johncash	records are object oriented poison
20:36	AWizzArd	Well, I was the guy who originally suggested them, in early 2009.
20:36	AWizzArd	They are a very nice addition and allow for good efficiency.
20:37	AWizzArd	I used defstruct but found that it was much slower compared to plain Java classes.
20:37	AWizzArd	Back then Rich hung out here every day and I asked if we could get a defclass.
20:38	AWizzArd	At first he didn’t like that, but a few months later he came up with a very cool idea: adding defrecord to Clojure. I thought that I heard about this idea before ;)
20:39	technomancy	imma join johncash in the corner
20:40	cbp`	u guys just dont like SPEEED
20:40	johncash	shooting yourself in the foot happens very fast
20:40	p_l	(optimize (debug 0) (speed 3) (safety 0) (size 0)) ; eh?
20:40	AWizzArd	p_l: did that too ;)
20:41	gfredericks	,(defstruct foo bar)
20:41	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: bar in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
20:41	gfredericks	,(defstruct foo [bar])
20:41	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: bar in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
20:41	gfredericks	man it's been so long since I did a defstruct
20:41	AWizzArd	Indeed.
20:42	AWizzArd	Though I don’t see how defrecords have anything to do with oop.
20:42	amalloy	i happen to know that it's (defstruct foo :bar)
20:42	kwertii	technomancy: I tried profile isolation as described in the FAQ; “lein compile” now gives the same “Compilation failed: Subprocess failed” error as “lein uberjar”. Other than that, no change
20:42	AWizzArd	Hah, the long forgotten syntax :)
20:43	amalloy	because the code i'm working on, written in the distant past of 2013, has a defstruct
20:43	technomancy	kwertii: cool, you fixed your build =)
20:43	gfredericks	depends on what you think OOP is about
20:43	gfredericks	I was explaining defrecord to a teammate just two days ago and his reaction was "just like OOP!"
20:44	cbp	every currently recommended clojure book was written for 1.3 anyway
20:44	cbp	everyone knows defstruct when they first start
20:44	johncash	#<INSTANCEOFPERSON name: "foo" age: 42> vs {name: "foo", :age 42}
20:44	amalloy	cbp: huh? records were added, and structs deprecated, in 1.2
20:44	cbp	oh
20:45	johncash	i think people closely associate polymorphism with OOP
20:45	cbp	I guess written for 1.2 with the 2nd edition in 1.3 and defstruct not removed :-P
20:45	gfredericks	I think the worst thing about OOP culture is encapsulated state, and defrecords don't have that
20:47	AWizzArd	Yes, they are just a data structure like you and me.
20:47	AWizzArd	Computer science is about using the right data structures and algorithms.
20:47	gfredericks	um
20:47	gfredericks	I don't think that's what records are obut
20:47	gfredericks	aboeutho
20:47	gfredericks	about
20:47	AWizzArd	They are a very lightweight data structure.
20:47	gfredericks	since datastructurewise they are effectively maps
20:48	AWizzArd	With very much less memory requirements and different lookup times.
20:48	gfredericks	yeah I guess there's a perf vs api distinction
20:48	jcromartie	I wish I could hit C-c C-k without an nREPL connection and automatically jack in
20:49	AWizzArd	What is again the syntax for the #: reader macro?
20:49	gfredericks	the what
20:49	kwertii	technomancy: er. I did?
20:49	amalloy	you just type #: and then the reader explodes
20:49	AWizzArd	Or what is the reader macro that allows to run code at read time?
20:49	gfredericks	,#:kaboom!
20:49	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Reader tag must be a symbol>
20:49	kwertii	jcromartie: C-c M-j does that
20:50	gfredericks	haha funny error
20:50	gfredericks	,#&kaboom!
20:50	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
20:50	technomancy	kwertii: it was leaking state and giving you a false positive when it should have failed
20:50	gfredericks	wow that reader literal thing takes up a big swath of the # dispatch space
20:50	gfredericks	,#&kaboom! :val
20:50	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: No reader function for tag &kaboom!>
20:50	cbp	jcromartie: im sure you can write an elisp function to do that? :-P
20:50	AWizzArd	Was it #& maybe?
20:51	gfredericks	#=
20:51	amalloy	AWizzArd: you're thinking of #=, which is a tool of the devil
20:51	AWizzArd	Ah yes, that was it.
20:51	AWizzArd	amalloy: guess who I am?
20:51	kwertii	technomancy: You mean “lein compile” should have always failed?
20:51	johncash	I have learned from Om that global application state is the only sane way to do state, however counter intuitive that may sound
20:51	jcromartie	kwertii: C-c M-j, then C-c C-k
20:51	kwertii	jcromartie: ah, I see
20:52	jcromartie	but I think C-c C-k should imply a cider-jack-in when there's no nREPL yet
20:52	johncash	coming from an era of "global variables the sky is falling"
20:52	kwertii	jcromartie: yes, that could be. seems straightforward enough to add
20:53	johncash	AWizzArd: A wizard?
20:54	cbp	johncash: as long as you're dealing with a single thread
20:56	johncash	ah good point
20:56	AWizzArd	johncash: btw, I am aware that wizard has only one ‘z’.
20:56	johncash	clojurescript is inheritly single threaded
20:57	johncash	AWizzArd: i was joking, you asked amalloy to guess who you were, and i respond "a wizard"
20:58	johncash	cbp: whats the best way to manage global app state with multiple threads?
20:59	cbp	Well
20:59	cbp	I don't know
21:00	AWizzArd	johncash: in Clojure one might be using refs for that.
21:01	cbp	My rethinkdb driver uses an agent as a frontend for a connection and it seems to work pretty well
21:01	amalloy	delete all the global app state. mischief managed
21:02	johncash	amalloy: so global app state is only a good idea in a single threaded environment?
21:03	johncash	AWizzArd: if you only have one ref as your global state, it seems to me there is no advantage of using STM since there is nothing to coordinate
21:03	AWizzArd	cbp: yes, and internally rethinkdb probably uses its own stm and fully persistant data structures.
21:03	AWizzArd	johncash: yes
21:03	amalloy	it's not a great idea then either. but i'm being overzealous on purpose: having some mutable state is acceptable, but if you have so much that you're having trouble managing it, the solution is usually to have less, not to get better management tools
21:04	AWizzArd	johncash: nope I meant :)
21:04	AWizzArd	johncash: if you want to read two times from your global ref that is fine. You can’t do this with an atom, as it might have changed between the two reads.
21:04	cbp	AWizzArd: sure, but as far as I've tested there are no race conditions with the sockets
21:05	johncash	amalloy: wouldn't it depend on the domain? Some application domains could be inherently very stateful
21:06	AWizzArd	johncash: let’s say you want to send money from one bank account to another. You first read from an account to see if it has a good balance. Then you withdraw a certain amount. But after reading the current balance and before doing this withdrawel someone else might have withdrawn all money in that account.
21:07	johncash	AWizzArd: doesn't that example assume two refs? one for each account balance?
21:07	amalloy	johncash: there's no such thing as inherently stateful
21:08	cbp	that example assumes a relational database
21:08	cbp	cus i don't want my money getting garbage collected no sir
21:08	AWizzArd	johncash: just one ref {:accounts {"amalloy" {:balance 17000000}}}
21:08	AWizzArd	johncash: but you access it possibly several times within one transaction.
21:08	johncash	AWizzArd: ah i get you now
21:09	johncash	amalloy_: is the _ suffix a convention for idleness?
21:10	dbasch	amalloy: well, real-time aircraft control is ridiculously stateful
21:11	p_l	more like it's not "functional" in the way people associate with the word these days
21:11	johncash	(inc dbasch)
21:11	lazybot	⇒ 5
21:14	amalloy	dbasch: sure, airplanes move around a lot in real life. but that doesn't mean that your program's model of airplanes has to be a big set of mutable Plane objects
21:14	amalloy	you model reality in a way that makes programming to achieve your goals easiest; statefulness isn't thrust upon you by a problem domain
21:15	dbasch	amalloy: true, but until now it has been impossible to model certain systems with mostly immutable state because of hardware constraints
21:15	AWizzArd	I for example work with big mutable arrays.
21:15	kwertii	technomancy: Is there anything else I can try to make “Compilation failed: Subprocess failed” tell me something useful?
21:16	AWizzArd	Everything else would be by far too slow.
21:16	dbasch	amalloy: for example, I used to be part of a team that crawled the web constantly and we could not afford to keep every old state of the web, not even the internet archive can
21:17	dbasch	we had to reuse storage space, delete old states
21:17	dbasch	the idea of databases with version control has been around forever but mostly impractical, and at some point people would laugh at anyone who’d consider it for a real-life project
21:18	dbasch	of course it’s awesome that now we can model things with less state because of better hardware and software
21:20	johncash	and non-naive immutable datastructures
21:22	kenrestivo	"databases with version control".... um, datomic?
21:23	kenrestivo	1http://docs.datomic.com/clojure/#datomic.api/as-of
21:23	kenrestivo	ehrm, i meant http://docs.datomic.com/clojure/#datomic.api/as-of
21:28	arrubin	kenrestivo: Datamoic is not the first temporal database.
21:28	arrubin	And the technique is not new.
21:28	arrubin	Datomic rather.
21:30	arrubin	A common technique is to use a trigger to move the existing data to an archive table.
21:59	AWizzArd	Is there
21:59	AWizzArd	Is there (dotimes [i n]
21:59	AWizzArd	oops
21:59	AWizzArd	Is there an await for futures?
22:03	Jachy	AWizzArd: Just dereference the future.
22:04	AWizzArd	Jachy: ah okay, it still has the blocking behaviour.
22:04	AWizzArd	I thought this was removed at some point, but good then, thx.
22:42	sdegutis	Apparently (.delete tmp-file) does not delete the temp file. I found this out the hard way.
22:49	mgaare	anyone have a favored method of passing stateful dependencies like database connections to ring handlers?
22:52	dbasch	sdegutis: did it return true?
22:52	dbasch	mgaare: the easiest way is to use an atom
22:56	sdegutis	dbasch: never checked :)
22:58	dbasch	,(.delete (java.io.File. "blah"))
22:58	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
22:58	dbasch	meh
23:03	mgaare	dbasch: yeah, I've tried that before, and some middlewares before
23:04	kwertii	technomancy: Found it. If a top-level form in clj being compiled throws an exception, ‘lein compile’ eats the exception and fails silently.
23:09	kwertii	technomancy: at least, that’s what happens in my real project. While trying to make a minimal example test case project, it does print the compile error. :/
23:26	j0ni	anyone seen this error trying to require clojure.core.async? CompilerException java.lang.Exception: namespace 'clojure.core.async.impl.channels' not found, compiling:(clojure/core/async.clj:9:1)
23:26	j0ni	everything works fine in a toy project...
23:34	TimMc	I thought there was a lein task you could run that would give you a sort of lein task repl where you could enter things like "test foo.core" instead of running lein test foo.core
23:35	dbasch	j0ni: what do your deps look like?
23:38	j0ni	dbasch: clojure.set, com.stuartsierra.component, taoensso.timbre and 2 of my own namespaces
23:38	j0ni	eval-ing the ns form in cider gets me that error
23:39	dbasch	j0ni: I mean, is this a lein project and if so what does the :dependencies mapping look like
23:40	j0ni	oh
23:40	j0ni	https://gist.github.com/j0ni/b173f407fc30e41f05d3
23:40	j0ni	dbasch: ^^
23:42	j0ni	sorry, was private, just made it public
23:56	j0ni	hmm, it appears to be due to capacitor
23:58	dbasch	j0ni: yes, it has its own core.async