#clojure – 2014-04-29

2014-04-29

00:00	cbp	I used it once to implement logging levels as an example
00:00	cbp	and that's the only time
00:00	Jaood	egghead: arrdem: I hear zippers follow the transients philosophy too
00:00	arrdem	Jaood: the issue with macros is that most of the time functions will do where people may traditionally reach for macros and as macros are meaningless at runtime (what is map of a macro? what is the value of a macro?) they aren't worth it.
00:00	egghead	zippers! lenses!
00:00	egghead	living life to the fullest
00:01	egghead	Jaood: most of the ideas are actually simple, they just have scary names
00:01	Jaood	arrdem: got it
00:02	cbp	lenses?
00:02	arrdem	Jaood: that's not to say I haven't written macros, it's just that macros are reserved for doing funky syntax extension tasks that a function _can't_ do.
00:07	amalloy	i used multimethod hierarchies twice at geni. one was on closed-source code that wasn't terribly interesting, and the other seems to have been replaced or removed, but i think it was part of cake or one of cake's supporting libraries (uncle maybe?)
00:10	Jaood	arrdem: you mean DSLs?
00:10	arrdem	Jaood: a lot of "dsl"s can be done with just datastructures and functions...
00:10	arrdem	Jaood: macros are for when you need a syntax extension that genuinely writes defs or something else crazy
00:11	Jaood	so macros are not that favored as in the CL world
00:12	cbp	turns out having syntax for more than one datastructure removes most of the need of macros for DSLs :-P
00:12	arrdem	(inc cbp) ;; truth hurts
00:12	lazybot	⇒ 4
00:12	arrdem	$karma `cbp
00:12	lazybot	`cbp has karma 3.
00:12	arrdem	cbp: tut tut
00:13	Jaood	cbp: are you referring the unified abtractions over the clojure collections?
00:13	Jaood	*to
00:14	Jaood	is the reference documentation on clojure.org normally up to date?
00:14	arrdem	Jaood: he's referring to the fact that we have reader syntax for more than just lists.
00:14	arrdem	,#inst
00:14	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
00:14	arrdem	,#inst "now"
00:14	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unrecognized date/time syntax: now>
00:15	arrdem	,(type :foo)
00:15	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Keyword
00:15	arrdem	,(type {:foo :bar :baz 9001})
00:15	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
00:15	arrdem	,(type [1 2 3 :foo {:baz :bar}])
00:15	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentVector
00:15	arrdem	and of course
00:16	arrdem	,(type '(1 2 3 4 :foo bar cojure.core/cons))
00:16	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList
00:16	Jaood	you missed one
00:16	Jaood	,(type #{1 2 3 4})
00:16	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet
00:16	Jaood	:P
00:16	cbp	documentation online is rarely up to date
00:17	arrdem	:P there's sets and there are some other reader lits too.. there's even a way to do user defined reader types
00:17	cbp	your best friends are clojure.repl/source, clojure.repl/doc and clojure.repl/apropos and some other function i forgot the name of
00:17	arrdem	cbp: juxt?
00:18	cbp	ns-publics i think
00:18	amalloy	arrdem: i found my use of defmulti hierarchies! it was in depot, which contained the pom-generating stuff that cake used: https://github.com/ninjudd/depot/blob/develop/src/depot/pom.clj
00:19	amalloy	it's not super-compelling, since all it does is eliminate the repetition of treating ::dependencies as a list of ::dependency and ::repositories as a list of ::repository
00:20	amalloy	but i had in mind that idea that the pom task would have to be extended to include more stuff
00:32	arrdem	thoughts on tweaking the meajure reader lit so that (= #meajure/unit [2 :feet] #meajure/unit [2 :feet 1])?
00:37	arrdem	,(let [θ₀ (/ Math/PI 2) θ₉ (/ Math/PI 4)] (- (* -1 (Math/cos θ₀)) (* -1 (Math/cos θ₉))))
00:37	clojurebot	0.7071067811865475
00:42	myguidingstar	hi all, is it possible to run lein tasks inside current project-local nREPL?
00:43	arrdem	lein != nrepl
00:44	TerranceWarrior	do you people use slime or cider for emacs? what about vim, is fireplace.vim the end all of interactive repls or quasi thereof?
00:45	arrdem	fireplace is the be all end all, slime is depricated in favor of nrepl.el or cider.el
00:45	arrdem	believe me, fireplace is better than what came before :P
00:47	TerranceWarrior	arrdem: i will take your word for it! :)
00:48	arrdem	TerranceWarrior: nrepl.el still totally works, it just isn't being actively developed anymore. be careful with cider and what emacs repository you install from, nightlies of cider are notoriously likely to be broken and suck hours of dev time to repair.
00:49	technomancy	clojurebot: melpa?
00:49	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
00:49	technomancy	clojurebot: melpa is not what you want.
00:49	clojurebot	Alles klar
00:49	Frozenlo`	I went back to nrepl after trying cider
00:50	arrdem	I've been using cider successfully, but I couldn't tell you what's different besides the name :P
00:55	myguidingstar	technomancy, is it possible to run lein tasks using current project-local nREPL session?
00:55	technomancy	myguidingstar: sure, try setting :eval-in :nrelp
00:55	technomancy	*:nrepl
00:56	myguidingstar	what about running lein task inside REPL, something like (lein ...)
00:57	technomancy	myguidingstar: you can do that with grenchman
00:57	technomancy	but you need a separate repl session for that
00:57	technomancy	lein has to be isolated from your project to run
00:58	myguidingstar	technomancy, yeah, the msg "launch `lein repl :headless' from outside a
00:58	myguidingstar	project directory" from grench confused me
00:59	technomancy	myguidingstar: what's confusing about it?
01:01	myguidingstar	technomancy, I thought I can't reuse curent project-local nREPL session for lein tasks (as my first question)
01:02	technomancy	oh right; that's correct
01:02	technomancy	sorry
01:02	technomancy	well
01:02	technomancy	some tasks run project code
01:03	technomancy	those tasks can run that project code inside the existing repl session
01:03	technomancy	but the actual task itself can't run inside there
01:03	TerranceWarrior	arrdem: ok, so don't cross the streams. thanks arrdem.
01:04	myguidingstar	so some tasks will work, and some don't?
01:04	technomancy	myguidingstar: what specifically do you want run in the existing repl?
01:04	technomancy	myguidingstar: do you understand the difference between things like `lein run` which run project code vs `lein clean` which don't?
01:05	technomancy	you can never run a task itself inside a project repl, but you can tell a task to run its project code inside an existing repl rather than starting a new JVM
01:08	myguidingstar	technomancy, so what's `:eval-in :nrepl` for? Those like `lein run` or `lein clean`?
01:09	technomancy	myguidingstar: it's for `lein run` type tasks
01:10	myguidingstar	got it, thanks a lot technomancy
01:12	technomancy	np
01:14	TerranceWarrior	any of you working in play-clj?
01:20	amalloy	~anyone
01:20	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
03:21	szymanowski	(clojurescript): what does this error means? WARNING: my-ns/my-fn no longer fn, references are stale
03:41	vijaykiran	well that was new - getting spam from id's here
04:01	kevinwebster	Is there a way to hack on a project source quickly with clojure and lein? Something analogous to Ruby bundler's :path option in the Gemspec (for any ruby people)?
04:02	vijaykiran	I'm not familiar with Ruby stuff - what kind of workflow are you looking for ?
04:03	TEttinger	"lein try" has been mentioned before, a plugin
04:05	kevinwebster	This may not be idiomatic in clojure, but in ruby if I wanted to "play around" with a dependency (gem) I would clone the source and then include the root directory of the source in a specific way. After that I could change things in the dependency's source and see the results in my project
04:07	kevinwebster	would a solution be to add the source somewhere in the classpath and then remove it from the project.clj's dependencies?
04:08	ucb	kevinwebster: lein has checouts
04:08	ucb	checkouts*
04:08	ucb	kevinwebster: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/doc/TUTORIAL.md#checkout-dependencies
04:09	kevinwebster	ucb: I think that is exactly what I am looking for, thanks!!
04:09	ucb	np
04:25	brainproxy	hmm, when I make a mistake in a cider repl, no error is shown, like its going to another buffer or something but I can't find it
04:25	brainproxy	recently upgraded some emacs packages, haven't noticed this before
04:27	ucb	brainproxy: I recently upgraded to 0.7.0-alpha
04:27	ucb	brainproxy: and had the same thing. I reverted to 0.5.0 and all is well.
04:27	ucb	brainproxy: in sum: it didn't quite work for me; unfortunately I wasn't virtuous so I didn't investigate nor filed any bug reports.
04:28	ucb	but it is a thing
04:31	brainproxy	ucb: turned out I needed cider/cider-nrepl as a lein plugin
04:31	brainproxy	in profiles.clj
04:31	brainproxy	then bounced emacs altogether
04:31	brainproxy	and all is well
04:32	ucb	huh
04:32	brainproxy	java 1.8, clojure 1.6
04:32	ucb	interesting
04:32	ucb	I should try that then! :)
04:32	brainproxy	what was confusing me was the message i needed cider nrepl installed, but I thought that referred to an emacs pkg
04:32	brainproxy	when in fact it refers to a lein thing
04:32	brainproxy	i.e. the cider-nrepl plugin
04:33	brainproxy	the message was showing in Emacs messages buffer, amidst other stuff
04:33	ucb	I got that message too. Did look for an emacs package. Couldn't find it. Reverted to 0.5.0 :)
04:36	brainproxy	yep, something popped into my head to look in clojars
04:36	brainproxy	otw, I was about to do the same
05:49	luxbock	,(case (type "a string") java.lang.String true false)
05:49	clojurebot	false
05:49	luxbock	why does this fail?
05:59	mpenet	,(doc case)
05:59	clojurebot	"([e & clauses]); Takes an expression, and a set of clauses. Each clause can take the form of either: test-constant result-expr (test-constant1 ... test-constantN) result-expr The test-constants are not evaluated. They must be compile-time literals, and need not be quoted. If the expression is equal to a test-constant, the corresponding result-expr is returned. A single default expression can foll...
06:02	luxbock	I still don't understand. in my mind case expands to (cond e (= result clause-1) do-stuff (= result clause-2) something), but I guess I'm mistaken?
06:04	mpenet	Classes are not compile time constants for case, there are a few "improved" case versions out there with their own problems too
06:05	mpenet	nippy has case-eval and cgrand did something a bit similar I think
06:05	pyrtsa	,(clojure.walk/macroexpand-all '(case x 1 :one 2 :two))
06:05	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.walk>
06:06	pyrtsa	,(macroexpand '(case x 1 :one 2 :two))
06:06	clojurebot	(let* [G__93 x] (case* G__93 0 0 (throw (java.lang.IllegalArgumentException. (clojure.core/str "No matching clause: " G__93))) ...))
06:07	luxbock	hmm ok
06:08	mpenet	,(case (type "a string") #=java.lang.String true false)
06:08	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EvalReader not allowed when read-eval is false.>
06:08	mpenet	meh
06:23	TEttinger	,(case (type "a string") (class "whee") true false)
06:23	clojurebot	false
06:23	TEttinger	,(print (type "a string") " " (class "whee"))
06:23	clojurebot	java.lang.String java.lang.String
06:27	clgv	TEttinger: the values in a case expression need to be compile time constants
06:27	TEttinger	ah yeah
06:27	clgv	TEttinger: and lists are interpreted as different options
06:28	TEttinger	and before you got here we talked about how classes aren't compile time constants
06:28	TEttinger	I was trying to figure out how to get [03:04;09] <mpenet> ,(case (type "a string") #=java.lang.String true false) to work
06:29	clgv	TEttingeryou can write a wrapper macro around case which resolves symbols
06:29	TEttinger	sure, it wasn't my problem in the first place
06:29	TEttinger	nippy's case-eval was mentioned
06:40	sm0ke	is there a way to make a function really first class in clojure?
06:40	sm0ke	so every time i define a function it generates a class
06:41	sm0ke	which means it can not be passed around in the network
06:42	the-kenny	So you want to serialize functions?
06:42	sm0ke	feels like a cheat to say clojure has first class status
06:42	the-kenny	https://github.com/technomancy/serializable-fn
06:42	clgv	sm0ke: huh why? what's your definition of "first class function"?
06:43	sm0ke	should be same as values in terms of behaviour when comes to passing around
06:45	the-kenny	Define "passing around" then
06:46	ucb	anybody got experience with slingshot? I'm having a hard time throwing+ a record and then catching it
06:49	martinklepsch	sm0ke, couldn't you just pass it around as edn?
06:49	sm0ke	martinklepsch: not if the function you define is anonymous and not :aot'd beforehand
06:50	ucb	oh, ignore me, I'm just an arse
06:50	the-kenny	sm0ke: how would you handle a function's environment when passing it around in a network?
06:51	sm0ke	the-kenny: lets assume there are no closures
06:51	rurumate	I'm confused. When I define (ns foo-bar.baz) (defrecord Foo) in one project, I can (import [foo_bar.baz Foo]) in another, even without having aot'ed the lib project, right?
06:51	TEttinger	sm0ke: Wat and Kernel have first class everything. they're also dog slow
06:53	clgv	rurumate: you need to require the namespace otherwise you cant. if you see it working thats due to another namespace requiring that namespace or stale class files which might explode unpredictably in the future
06:54	clgv	sm0ke: so you mean according to metadata? or do you just want to inspect the function source expressions?
07:03	rurumate	clgv: I can't get to work reliably, I've even tried without lein
07:04	rurumate	To demonstrate, I will push more horrible code in a minute here: https://github.com/methylene/class-not-found
07:08	rurumate	done
07:10	clgv	rurumate: you need to (:require foo-bar.baz) and (:import foo_bar.baz.Foo) - I am not sure if the order makes any difference, you'd have to lookup that in the source. but you are on the safe side if you first require then import
07:11	rurumate	clgv: that's what I'm doing. have a look at https://github.com/methylene/class-not-found/blob/master/src/class_not_found/core.clj
07:12	clgv	rurumate: that should work. but you should use the keyword version in ns
07:12	rurumate	why?
07:12	clojurebot	why is Why
07:13	rurumate	oh why
07:13	clgv	because it is idiomatic to do so and better readable
07:13	clgv	where does record-holder.def come from?
07:14	rurumate	hmm, ok, I also noticed that using (gen-class :main true) instead of (:gen-class :main true) fails
07:14	rurumate	clgv: it's from a lein project in lib
07:15	rurumate	is it me, or is this on-the-fly compilation thing a bit brittle
07:16	clgv	rurumate: the proper version of your namespace should look like https://www.refheap.com/82895
07:22	rurumate	clgv: ok, will update it in a few secs
07:22	rurumate	why no :main true in gen-class? is it default?
07:22	clgv	rurumate: the functions require, use and co are mostly for REPL usage
07:22	devurandom	Hello!
07:22	clgv	rurumate: yes
07:23	clgv	rurumate: all my namespaces with -main methods only have (:gen-class)
07:23	rurumate	it's pushed
07:23	devurandom	Can someone please point me to the docs for cond-> ? http://clojuredocs.org/search?q=cond-%3E does not give any results.
07:23	rurumate	clgv: can you start a repl?
07:24	clgv	devurandom: there is nothing on this site since cond is clojure 1.5+
07:24	devurandom	clgv: Is there a more up-to-date documentation?
07:24	clgv	$(doc cond->)
07:24	clgv	$doc cond->
07:25	hyPiRion	,(doc cond->)
07:25	clojurebot	"([expr & clauses]); Takes an expression and a set of test/form pairs. Threads expr (via ->) through each form for which the corresponding test expression is true. Note that, unlike cond branching, cond-> threading does not short circuit after the first true test expression."
07:25	hyPiRion	eventually just
07:25	hyPiRion	(doc cond->)
07:25	clojurebot	"([expr & clauses]); Takes an expression and a set of test/form pairs. Threads expr (via ->) through each form for which the corresponding test expression is true. Note that, unlike cond branching, cond-> threading does not short circuit after the first true test expression."
07:25	clgv	devurandom: do you have an explicite question?
07:25	devurandom	(Light Table has no docs on it, either)
07:25	clgv	hyPiRion: confused it with lazybots "source" ;)
07:26	clgv	devurandom: the builtin doc string is echoed by clojurebot above
07:26	hyPiRion	clgv: ah, yeah
07:26	devurandom	Ah, ok. So it is not a general Clojure command?
07:26	devurandom	And still, Light Table seems to have less docs than clojurebot. :(
07:26	clgv	devurandom: it is. but clojuredocs.org is very much outdated ;)
07:27	clgv	devurandom: you get a printed docstring when you evaluate "(doc cond->)" on your repl that works for all functions/macros
07:27	devurandom	And (doc ...) would normally reference clojuredocs.org?
07:27	clgv	no
07:27	devurandom	Or what does "it" refer to in your sentence?
07:27	devurandom	Sorry, I got confused...
07:28	clgv	devurandom: (doc ...) displays builtin docstrings
07:28	clgv	,(doc map)
07:28	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f c1 c2] [f c1 c2 c3] [f c1 c2 c3 & ...]); Returns a lazy sequence consisting of the result of applying f to the set of first items of each coll, followed by applying f to the set of second items in each coll, until any one of the colls is exhausted. Any remaining items in other colls are ignored. Function f should accept number-of-colls arguments."
07:28	clgv	,(doc cond->)
07:28	clojurebot	"([expr & clauses]); Takes an expression and a set of test/form pairs. Threads expr (via ->) through each form for which the corresponding test expression is true. Note that, unlike cond branching, cond-> threading does not short circuit after the first true test expression."
07:28	clgv	you'll get the same result on your repl
07:29	devurandom	Weird. I tried to execute (doc cond->) in LightTable via Ctrl+Enter, and get an error message: "Cannot call method 'call' of undefined"
07:29	rurumate	clgv: added another update, is this even a lein problem?
07:29	devurandom	I thought LT would send stuff through the REPL when I press Ctrl+Enter
07:30	clgv	rurumate: what error do you get exactly?
07:30	devurandom	Maybe doc is not defined. Maybe because it is actually cljs and not clojure...?
07:31	ashish_	is there is any way to redifine the function temporary
07:31	ashish_	is there is any way to redefine the function temporary
07:31	clgv	devurandom: ah maybe you need to (require 'clojure.repl) first. on "lein repl" that is done by the frontend
07:32	rurumate_	clgv: I get some 20 lines of stacktrace when I try a lein repl
07:32	ashish_	is there is any way to redefine the function temporary
07:33	rurumate_	can you start a repl?
07:33	devurandom	It seems cljs works very different from the standard Clojure you refer to. (require) is also not defined.
07:33	clgv	rurumate: no not with the clone repo
07:33	ashish_	is there is any way to redefine the function temporary
07:33	ashish_	is there is any way to redefine the function temporary
07:33	ashish_	is there is any way to redefine the function temporary
07:33	devurandom	But anyway, now I know how to get a clojure repl: "lein repl".
07:33	devurandom	ashish_: please... stop it...
07:34	rurumate_	clgv: fI'll be afk now
07:34	rurumate_	sorry, good, I'll be afk for a while.
07:34	clgv	devurandom: clojure does not load the namespace clojure.repl atuomatically anymore. some dev environments do that automatically some dont
07:34	devurandom	clgv: And regarding your earlier question: No, I do not have an explicit question. I was just seeing this call in example code, and did not know what it does.
07:35	clgv	devurandom: conditional threading similar to ->
07:35	devurandom	Yep, thanks to clojurebot I understood it now :)
07:36	rurumate_	clgv: c u later; here's the actual error: http://pastebin.com/r4bin9Uw
07:36	clgv	devurandom: next time just (require 'clojure.repl) and you can use (doc cond->) on your repl
07:36	devurandom	(I am currently working through the Om tutorial, after I got recommended to use ClojureScript instead of JavaScript to display the data in my simulation.)
07:37	clgv	devurandom: oh so thats quite a headstart ;)
07:37	devurandom	clgv: It seems cljs has no (require) function. Seems the only possibility is to call it from the (ns) definition.
07:37	clgv	devurandom: I always recommend to read one of the books to learn fast
07:37	devurandom	I am currently very far away from any book, I fear. ;) I.e. no easy access to international bookshops.
07:38	clgv	devurandom: when developing cljs you should also have a clojure repl as far as I read (I did not use cljs yet)
07:38	clgv	devurandom: there are ebook versions of all recent books
07:39	devurandom	I think cljs implements a subset of clojure, so yes, I would assume I get most of clojure. Will figure it out. :)
07:39	clgv	devurandom: otherwise there are several websites (http://www.braveclojure.com/, http://aphyr.com/tags/Clojure-from-the-ground-up)
07:39	devurandom	clgv: Yes, a PDF might be nice. Any recommendation?
07:39	devurandom	clgv: Thanks! :)
07:42	clgv	devurandom: "Clojure Programming" or "Programming Clojure (2nd Edition)"
07:45	ashish_	is there is any way to redefine the function temporary
07:46	ashish_	i wnt to use a new database for testing how it is possible
07:46	devurandom	clgv: Thanks!
07:47	ashish_	i wnt to use a new database for testing how it is possible so that it does not effects my original dta base
07:48	mpenet	,(doc with-redefs)
07:48	clojurebot	"([bindings & body]); binding => var-symbol temp-value-expr Temporarily redefines Vars while executing the body. The temp-value-exprs will be evaluated and each resulting value will replace in parallel the root value of its Var. After the body is executed, the root values of all the Vars will be set back to their old values. These temporary changes will be visible in all threads. Useful for mockin...
07:48	the-kenny	ashish_: with-redefs. And you might want to take a look at https://github.com/stuartsierra/component
07:50	ashish_	there is a problem with-redefs i can not call from any function
07:51	ashish_	<mpenet> <the-kenny> there is a problem with-redefs i can not call from any function
07:51	ashish_	if i call then it store the value permanently
07:52	the-kenny	how are you calling it?
07:56	ashish_	<the-kenny> i put this in a function (with-redefs [db (fn [] testschema/db-spec)])(db)) and call from any other namespace if i do like this then this function give new value which i stored for temporay every times
07:56	grimmulfr	Ok, this seems to be a wee more active than #clojurescript: I cleaned a project, and now compilation won't make my out
07:56	grimmulfr	folder with the required files. Any idea why? I don't get any error,
07:56	grimmulfr	but only thing that gets compiled is the actual js file, and not the
07:56	grimmulfr	helpers (goog, etc)
07:56	grimmulfr	oops, sorry. copied :(
07:57	the-kenny	ashish_: that sounds strange
07:57	the-kenny	grimmulfr: what's :output-dir and :optimizations set to?
07:59	grimmulfr	:output-to "basic-site.js"
07:59	grimmulfr	:output-dir "out"
07:59	grimmulfr	thing is, it worked. after I cleaned, it won't recreate anymore
08:00	grimmulfr	it creates the main js but not the helpers
08:00	grimmulfr	well, not helpers, you kanow what I mean. goog :)
08:00	the-kenny	yes, I understand
08:00	grimmulfr	optimizations is none (tried whitespace too)
08:01	the-kenny	ashish_: I don't think `with-redefs' has such a fundamental but. Must be something in your code.
08:01	the-kenny	grimmulfr: never had that happen. No idea, sorry
08:02	grimmulfr	No problem
08:09	mskoud	Anyone know how to insert a background/watermark pdf file into a newly generated pdf using clj-pdf? This does not work: (pdf
08:09	mskoud	[{}
08:09	mskoud	[:graphics (PdfReader. (FileInputStream. "background.pdf"))]
08:09	mskoud	[:phrase "some text"]]
08:09	mskoud	"testresult.pdf")
08:19	clgv	mskoud: you could search for itext tutorials for that
08:27	mskoud	tried google got only java code, nothing about clj-pdf
09:29	mskoud	Absolute positioning of text in pdf using clj-pdf?
09:36	pandeiro	is there anywhere the clojure/cljs core.async APIs are documented? the sequence functions analogs particularly
09:36	pandeiro	or does one just use the source?
09:37	voldyman	pandeiro: http://clojure.github.io/core.async/
09:42	pandeiro	is (async/map identity [my-chan]) the cleanest way to just copy a channel?
09:43	BobSchack	pandeiro try using into
09:43	BobSchack	oops I thought you meant seq onto a channel nevermind
09:44	pandeiro	BobSchack: np thanks; i thought i had seen an async/copy somewhere but i don't see it in the API now
09:44	BobSchack	are you looking to split a channel into multiple channels?
09:45	pandeiro	BobSchack: no i just want a copy of the channel so i can debug without consuming the actual original channel
09:46	pandeiro	maybe (tap (mult my-chan) (chan)) is what i am after
09:48	BobSchack	I think that still consumes the original channel it just allow you to split the original channel into multiple channels (ala fan out)
09:49	pandeiro	yeah, not what i wanted... i will just try map
09:51	pandeiro	hm, that also doesn't work
09:52	BobSchack	You want get the data on the channel for debugging and not have actual work happen in the meantime right?
09:53	pandeiro	BobSchack: exactly
09:56	BobSchack	okay I don't think you'll be able to do that directly. I have to head out for a meeting but if you ask your question later some of the core.async devs should be around.
09:56	pandeiro	BobSchack: yeah i am thinking it isn't possible; my bad
09:56	BobSchack	also the clojure mailing list is a good place to ask
10:07	arrdem	you're quite likely to get an answer there at any rate, it has a somewhat larger reach than this channel.
11:00	jcromartie	I'm trying to figure out the best way to version our Clojure application
11:01	jcromartie	we have regular sprints (2 weeks) and at the end of that sprint we deploy to an alpha environment, and then that build eventually gets promoted to a beta environment, and then eventually to production
11:02	jcromartie	but keeping track of things across project.clj, tags, the develop and master branches, etc. is getting hairy
11:03	TimMc	jcromartie: You might keep separate branches for alpha, beta, and master (production).
11:03	jcromartie	that's kind of what I was thinking
11:03	TimMc	and make sure that every merge to alpha updates a CHANGES.txt file as appropriate.
11:03	arrdem	$google git flow
11:03	lazybot	[A successful Git branching model » nvie.com] http://nvie.com/posts/a-successful-git-branching-model/
11:04	TimMc	The one thing about this that worries me is not easily knowing which changes have been merged to which branches.
11:04	arrdem	^ the above is essentially that sort of branching model, using only one layer of dev builds.
11:05	jcromartie	what's the point of CHANGES.txt
11:05	TimMc	At work we often just develop against master, but then it's sometimes not clear what features and bugfixes are new since last release.
11:05	jcromartie	why not just git log master..alpha
11:05	TimMc	jcromartie: ^ see last statement
11:05	arrdem	an alternative, and what we did at Calxeda, is that each commit starts with the ticket number and only "full patch" commits make it into the alpha/beta/dev branches.
11:06	arrdem	so it's easy to do `git log` and the first token on each line is the name of the ticket patched by that commit
11:06	jcromartie	yeah we do that
11:07	arrdem	but yeah maintaining a CHANGES.txt that tracks all the fixes since last "release" is a good idea, abet an overhead you can probably incur when snapshotting out a "final" alpha/beta/dev tag
11:07	arrdem	rather than having all devs patch it all the time, which makes merges messy.
11:07	jcromartie	I don't see the point in a change file vs a good commit log
11:07	arrdem	jcromartie: it's just a summary that the person who does the release puts together for user convenience.
11:07	jcromartie	ok
11:08	jcromartie	you could also have lines in your git commits like "CHANGELOG …" that would help create that file automatically
11:08	jcromartie	well anyway
11:08	jcromartie	I like the idea of a change file for users
11:08	jcromartie	but if we have three major environments, having three branches makes sense
11:09	jcromartie	much easier than saying "uh, what's on what server now?"
11:09	jcromartie	and then "let me go check the hash on the release folder"
11:10	arrdem	pffft "what's the hash on the server", I "fixed" the build system so that we had the hash in our firmware builds -_- "what hash is running on the exhibiting hardware"
11:10	arrdem	better bust out the FRU reader and find out...
11:11	jcromartie	:P
11:20	TimMc	Git log is not enough for a changelog.
11:20	TimMc	For instance, lets say you need to revert some merged commits. They still show as merged, they're in the history -- but at least the changelog has been reverted.
11:21	TimMc	It's also different in terms of what it says. A feature may be implemented in the course of three different merges; you might not list debugging commits in the log; doc changes don't need changelog entries...
11:22	TimMc	And the merge conflicts for appending stuff to a log are pretty minimal. If you use a good mergetool like meld, it's a few extra seconds and that's it.
11:28	hyPiRion	TimMc: should be pretty minimal regardless of merge tools
11:38	jcromartie	what are my options for no-downtime deployments of a Ring app?
11:40	clgv	jcromartie: a wrapper in front of the real app to be able to exchange the implementation on the fly?
11:40	mpenet	nginx reverse proxy on 2 instances of the app
11:42	jcromartie	yeah
11:42	mpenet	via http://nginx.org/en/docs/http/ngx_http_upstream_module.html, I think there's an example in the clojars-web repo
11:42	jcromartie	so how do you handle the swap?
11:42	jcromartie	ah great
11:43	jcromartie	I'll read into this
11:43	mpenet	it's described here: https://github.com/ato/clojars-web/blob/46a6525ab9984e6bedb163c4ea14d2a6bac3c6b0/SYSADMIN.md
11:45	mpenet	this goes into the details of the process http://p.hagelb.org/clojars-deploy
11:51	myguidingstar	hi all, what is `:provided` profile in leiningen for?
11:54	ispolin	jcromartie: Roomkey had a presentation at this year’s Clojure/West about their deployment strategy. Be wraned, it’s pretty involved: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFX6T5oQC7Y#t=1250
11:54	jcromartie	maybe it's designed for dependencies that are already available locally to the project or something?
11:54	jcromartie	cool thanks
11:57	nz	myguidingstar: http://maven.apache.org/guides/introduction/introduction-to-dependency-mechanism.html
12:00	ispolin	jcromartie: TLDR: Roomkey spins up a new instance of their app, then cut over first the DB(as in old app is using new db instance), and then the traffic via DNS updates
12:00	myguidingstar	nz, thanks
12:01	jcromartie	yeah that seems pretty heavy duty
12:01	jcromartie	we'd like to do it on the same host
12:01	jcromartie	nginx might be the answer
12:09	jcromartie	are there any advantages to using "java -Dfoo=bar …" over an environment variable?
12:09	jcromartie	I am thinking no
12:10	jcromartie	especially considering how env vars work no matter how you run it (via lein or an uberjar or whatever)
12:11	technomancy	jcromartie: the only difference afaik is you can change system properties at runtime
12:12	technomancy	can be nice during development
12:12	nullptr	i like that it's explicit, envs can be a bit wonky (shell env differs from system env, for example)
12:14	johnjelinek	hihi all
12:14	johnjelinek	how's it goin'?
12:14	johnjelinek	how do I put an anonymous function in a (->?
12:15	johnjelinek	example: (-> (http/client {:port 443 :host base-uri :ssl true}) (http/post authorize-uri access-token-handler) (fn [x] (println x) x) (http/end (authorize-body code apikey redirect-uri apisecret)))
12:16	johnjelinek	but (fn [x] (println x) x) is an error
12:16	johnjelinek	I want to just analyze the output as it goes through there
12:17	gfredericks	you can do an anon fn with an extra pair of parens around the fn; but your specific use case is easier done with (doto (println))
12:17	clgv	johnjelinek: don't. if you really want to use two levels of parentheses ((fn [x] ...))
12:18	johnjelinek	the 2nd pair of parens will execute the anon fn?
12:18	clgv	yes
12:18	gfredericks	,(macroexpand-1 '(-> x (fn [y] (z y)))
12:18	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
12:18	gfredericks	,(macroexpand-1 '(-> x (fn [y] (z y))))
12:18	clojurebot	(fn x [y] (z y))
12:18	gfredericks	,(macroexpand-1 '(-> x ((fn [y] (z y)))))
12:18	clojurebot	((fn [y] (z y)) x)
12:18	gfredericks	johnjelinek: ^ compare those two
12:19	clgv	,(require 'clojure.data)
12:19	clojurebot	nil
12:19	clgv	,(clojure.data/diff (macroexpand-1 '(-> x (fn [y] (z y)))) (macroexpand-1 '(-> x ((fn [y] (z y))))))
12:19	clojurebot	[[fn nil [y] (z y)] [(fn [y] (z y))] [nil x]]
12:20	johnjelinek	I see the diff, it makes sense (I don't know how to read the data/diff though)
12:20	gfredericks	I don't think the data/diff is a helpful approach for understanding
12:20	clgv	I was just curious to see whether it helps. but it does not here ;)
12:21	johnjelinek	doto does work though :)
12:21	johnjelinek	thanks!
12:22	gfredericks	np
12:22	clgv	ah lol you want print+return^^
12:22	johnjelinek	bingo
12:22	johnjelinek	so I can keep on going down the (->
12:22	clgv	did miss the "x" due to line wrapp^^
12:23	clgv	johnjelinek: that might be interesting for you https://github.com/dgrnbrg/spyscope
12:25	johnjelinek	interesting
12:25	johnjelinek	thanks
12:27	coventry	johnjelinek: Use clojure.tools.trace/trace
12:28	clgv	coventry: how'd that help in the threading macro?
12:41	coventry	clgv: With one argument, it does exactly what johnjelinek wanted: (require '[clojure.tools.trace :as ctt]) (-> 1 inc ctt/trace inc) prints out "TRACE: 2".
12:41	johnjelinek	cool
12:57	johnjelinek	tcrawley: you around?
12:58	johnjelinek	what format do I pass headers into http/get-now?
12:58	johnjelinek	it's requesting a multi-map
12:58	johnjelinek	erm, expecting*
12:58	johnjelinek	can i not just pass in a vector of k/v pairs?
13:01	jcidaho	Hi. I've got a weird behavour with pr-str. Sometimes when I do (spit f (prn-str {:a "ho"})) f contains {:a ho} as oppose to {:a "ho"}
13:01	jcidaho	when I try to reproduce from the REPL the quoted version is put in the file, but at other times in the code it's the unquoted form
13:13	jcidaho	nevermind, some lazyiness * weirdness
13:18	coventry	Are you actually doing a map literal in the prn-str? I would do something like (def dbg (atom nil)) prior to the suspected code, then (reset! dbg printed-object) (read-string (prn-str printed-object)) to trigger an exception, and inspect @dbg in the repl.
13:30	justin_smith	coventry: another trick is (def dbg (atom {})) ... (defn problematic-function [args] (swap! dbg assoc (java.util.Date.) args)) ...
13:31	justin_smith	time indexed tracing to introspect from the repl
13:34	cbp	(inc justin_smith)
13:34	lazybot	⇒ 38
13:35	justin_smith	a macro variation of let that returned {:val (what let returned) :bindings {:key-of-binding val ...} would be cool for debugging
13:36	justin_smith	maybe there is some internal that already gets this for a let?
13:43	amalloy	justin_smith: i don't quite understand what that would look like
13:46	johnjelinek	got a question about higher order functions
13:46	justin_smith	amalloy: I tried to type out what I had in mind but it looks clumsy
13:46	justin_smith	poorly thought out at the moment, sorry
13:46	amalloy	johnjelinek: you're in luck! HOFs are the answer to all questions!
13:46	johnjelinek	can I pass a function to a function and then return the result of that function in the parent function?
13:47	johnjelinek	here, maybe a refheap will help
13:48	sm0ke	,((fn [f] (let [r (f)] (inc r))) (partial inc 2))
13:48	clojurebot	4
13:48	dbasch	johnjelinek: yes
13:48	johnjelinek	not-fully thought out example: https://www.refheap.com/82957
13:49	justin_smith	johnjelinek: yeah, we do stuff like that all the time
13:49	sm0ke	sure can be done, functions are first class values
13:49	johnjelinek	I either want to treat the hof like a callback or take the stuff that executes in the (fn [response ...) and return that at the end of the function
13:49	sm0ke	except when you pass then around wire
13:49	justin_smith	johnjelinek: passing in some function that may be conditionally used especially
13:50	justin_smith	sm0ke: to be fair, only the edn subset of clojure is first class
13:50	sm0ke	yes
13:50	johnjelinek	so, what do you recommend my my scenario?
13:50	justin_smith	sm0ke: java objects that are not edn don't pass over the wire either
13:50	sm0ke	functions are not serializable, so they are not first class imo
13:50	sm0ke	truly*
13:51	johnjelinek	maybe I could just inline the result instead of calling the hof, that way it would return the data at the end
13:51	johnjelinek	I'm just not sure how to extract the data from the inner fn
13:51	justin_smith	sm0ke: as was mentioned above, the problem is closures, they are tricky things to serialize, and they are extremely important to deciding what a function actually means
13:51	johnjelinek	does my scenario make sense?
13:51	amalloy	johnjelinek: http/get is asynchronous, yes?
13:52	johnjelinek	amalloy: yes
13:52	llasram	sm0ke: Well, functions aren't data, but that doesn't mean they aren't first-class
13:52	johnjelinek	http/get has a handler fn as 3rd arity
13:52	amalloy	so this function, request-data, is actually returning long before the get is finished, so thus before your lambda is even called
13:52	johnjelinek	and so that gets executed upon completion
13:52	grimmulfr	Can't be this hard to use clojurescript :(. I'm going nuts here. It feels like everything's alpha
13:53	sm0ke	llasram: how did you solve the function passing for live development for parkour?
13:53	amalloy	you're sure you want to take this async function and force it to be synchronous? there's probably a better synchronous primitive if that's the behavior you want
13:53	grimmulfr	I seem to be doing everything ok, compuiles once, compiles the second time but ohly half the files, no error, yet nothign works
13:53	justin_smith	grimmulfr: much of clojurescript is very new
13:53	grimmulfr	but it worked :(
13:53	grimmulfr	I have a project that works, and one that doesn't. same settings
13:53	johnjelinek	amalloy: I'm not entirely sure ... ultimately, what I'd like to do is pass in a token, a uri for data to fetch, and then pass it to a go-block
13:54	johnjelinek	then whenever events in a channel are received broadcast to stuff
13:54	dbasch	grimmulfr: maybe you have stale js? have you done a clean?
13:54	sm0ke	cascalog has something weird, which i saw today, it serializes a function which is closure over locals!
13:54	johnjelinek	where the data being broadcast is the response from polling from request-data
13:54	sm0ke	pretty hip stuff
13:54	grimmulfr	done all sorts of clean. even started a new project and then manually added everything
13:54	johnjelinek	amalloy: make sense?
13:54	grimmulfr	compiles the js, but not the goog files which I got when I first did it
13:54	amalloy	johnjelinek: you don't actually care what this function returns at all, then. you just want it to have a (go ...) in the on-body
13:54	grimmulfr	now it compiled goog/base.js, but not deps.js
13:55	amalloy	add a channel parameter to the function request-data, and in on-body, write to it with >!
13:55	grimmulfr	No error either, which is even more anoying
13:55	justin_smith	sm0ke: what happens when a different vm tries to access the function, but the locals are from a library that the other vm does not have in the classpath?
13:55	grimmulfr	All the examples that I find use ring but I don't want a local server, I just want a html that loads my app.js :-<
13:55	amalloy	or pass it a function that contains a (go ... (>! ...)), whatever
13:55	justin_smith	sm0ke: or does it encapsulate every library closed over in the function?
13:55	johnjelinek	amalloy: yes, I want to have a go on the on-body, but I wanted to make request-data a little more generic
13:56	johnjelinek	hrm ... maybe I don't need it to be more generic
13:56	justin_smith	sm0ke: that seems like it would be huge
13:56	sm0ke	justin_smith: lets just assume all libraries are present everywhere
13:56	johnjelinek	I was thinking about wrapping request-data in a go-block rather than having the go-block for on-body
13:56	dbasch	grimmulfr: not a problem, just navigate to the html page that ring would serve (or create one)
13:56	johnjelinek	but the on-body go-block prolly makes more sense
13:56	justin_smith	sm0ke: that's a really weird assumption
13:56	sm0ke	justin_smith: thats pretty normal for a distributed system
13:57	johnjelinek	amalloy: I'll try out some of your suggestions
13:57	johnjelinek	thanks
13:59	justin_smith	sm0ke: given assurance that deserialization will happen in an environment that has identical bindings that are visible at the site of serialization, that is kind of cool. But if all code is visible at all hosts, why is the serialized function needed, couldn't you just send the ns and var name and let the other host resolve it?
13:59	bizniz98	Getting "Exception in thread "main" Wrong number of args (3) passed to: PersistentHashMap". There's something fundamental here I'm not getting...
13:59	amalloy	bizniz98: too many parens
13:59	llasram	justin_smith, sm0ke: Since it's specifically for cascalog, it can make the assumption the same libraries are available where the function will be serialized, because the job driver makes it so be
13:59	sm0ke	justin_smith: yes true, but what if i want to create function on the fly?
14:00	amalloy	you have ((x y) a b c) instead of something like (do (x y) a b c)
14:00	llasram	I'm still not a big fan of the approach as a general solution to delivering Clojure code to distributed systems though
14:00	justin_smith	llasram: ahh, OK. There is a larger defined system making those guarantees, that makes sense
14:01	sm0ke	https://github.com/nathanmarz/cascalog/blob/develop/cascalog-core/src/clj/cascalog/logic/fn.clj
14:02	bizniz98	amalloy: Thanks! That was it. I went the do route but still wound up with an extra set of parens!
14:02	sm0ke	though it requires you to use its own `fn` macro
14:04	sm0ke	Did anyone had some insights into how spark framework works, it seems to serialize anonymous functions with closures over local
14:04	sm0ke	i doubt if scala provides that oob
14:04	amalloy	huh. does the epl allow cascalog to borrow from technomancy/serializable-fn without attribution and not under epl?
14:04	sm0ke	:P
14:06	technomancy	amalloy: no attribution is fine, but you can't take someone else's code and change the license ever.
14:06	technomancy	assuming it's above the copyright threshold
14:07	sm0ke	hmm then its a problem ? its Apache
14:08	amalloy	technomancy: i mean, https://github.com/technomancy/serializable-fn/blob/master/src/serializable/fn.clj and https://github.com/nathanmarz/cascalog/blob/develop/cascalog-core/src/clj/cascalog/logic/fn.clj#L6 clearly have a common ancestor, although they're far from identical
14:08	technomancy	haha; they kept the docstring
14:08	sm0ke	yes seems like nathanmarz/serializable-fn was pulled into cascalog
14:08	amalloy	i know, right?
14:09	sm0ke	which is fork of technomancy/serializable-fn
14:09	technomancy	yeah, that's not legal
14:09	sm0ke	i think technomancy is cool with it?
14:09	sm0ke	or is he? :D
14:09	technomancy	sm0ke: I would be happy to relicense it if they asked
14:10	amalloy	technomancy: when you make millions of dollars suing them, i'll take 25% for noticing the infringement, and 33% for contributing lots of the code
14:10	technomancy	sm0ke: I'm not cool with ignoring copyright law
14:10	sm0ke	yes just remeber me for bringing this
14:10	koalallama	technomancy: let me know if you need legal representation. I can find you a lawyer on google
14:10	technomancy	such a helpful bunch
14:11	sm0ke	lol
14:13	hyPiRion	technomancy: just file an issue
14:13	hyPiRion	I guess you knew that already though
14:14	koalallama	hyPiRion: is that what Oracle told Google? Just file an issue?
14:14	cbp	with the copyright office amirite
14:15	mdrogali`	lol
14:16	sm0ke	tbh, i think its ok, doesnt a community thrives on adapting good code from each other?
14:17	sm0ke	although an attribution would have been good
14:17	technomancy	sm0ke: it's not about attribution, it's about following the law
14:18	justin_smith	sm0ke: and communities get screwed over by code getting relicensed or closed up (see gosmacs and the origins of the fsf / gnu project)
14:21	technomancy	https://github.com/nathanmarz/cascalog/issues/249
14:21	amalloy	technomancy: edit to include links to both files?
14:22	technomancy	good call
14:24	sm0ke	hurm wow
14:25	hiredman	ugh
14:25	johnjelinek	amalloy: I'm starting to think I'd like the data to return at the end of my request-data fn
14:25	sm0ke	i dont see how they will fix that without chaning license
14:25	johnjelinek	maybe I'm not thinking about it right
14:25	hiredman	the # thing in the code comments is due to print-length and print-level being bound
14:25	amalloy	sm0ke: well, asking technomancy nicely to offer them another license, as he said earlier he would happily do
14:25	hiredman	someone should open an issue with cascalog about that too
14:26	johnjelinek	maybe I'm thinking about it too synchronously
14:26	hiredman	maybe I will
14:28	grimmulfr	note to self, cljs compiles cljs files, not clj.
14:28	grimmulfr	ffs
14:29	grimmulfr	I had everything inside my source as a clj, trying to compile to cljs, and a bunch of other stuff mixed in
14:29	nullptr	grimmulfr: been there :)
14:29	hyPiRion	amalloy: or perhaps license that particular part of the project as EPL? I'm not sure if that's even possible though.
14:30	amalloy	perhaps. i can barely even spell lawyer, so i'm not going to speculate
14:30	llasram	hyPiRion: IANAL, but the Apache guidelines allow including EPL code as long as the code is in it's own file and notices etc clearly indicate that file is EPLed
14:31	llasram	I actually pulled+modified the Clojure EdnReader into Parkour recently and had to figure out what seemed to be the best approach
14:32	llasram	https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#category-b
14:32	hyPiRion	llasram: I wish there were a website with examples on how to handle such things
14:32	hyPiRion	were/was, I no English
14:32	l1x	technomancy: why is it a license violation?
14:33	l1x	because he does not display the source of the code?
14:33	amalloy	hyPiRion: you had it right: were
14:33	technomancy	l1x: because he took something he didn't write that was EPL-licensed and just proclaimed that it was apache-licensed
14:33	justin_smith	l1x: he is changing the license terms
14:33	l1x	oh i see
14:33	l1x	interesting
14:34	llasram	I hereby declare this bacon to be Vegetarian and Kosher!
14:34	hyPiRion	amalloy: thanks for confirming
14:34	technomancy	hyPiRion: most native english speakers don't follow the "correct" usage there anyway =)
14:34	l1x	technomancy: what would be the correct action in this case? license the software under EPL?
14:35	amalloy	well, i think it's simpler than that: EPL says that you can include EPL source into your own programs iff you license it as EPL and don't remove any copyright notices
14:35	technomancy	l1x: yes, or ask for the code to be dual-licensed
14:35	l1x	i see
14:35	l1x	thank you guys
14:36	amalloy	i bet in a decade or two, "was" will be acceptable over "were" there. english doesn't really have much of a subjunctive anyway
14:36	amalloy	i mean, already it's "acceptable", i guess
14:36	llasram	amalloy, hyPiRion: I definitely wouldn't blink at either
14:36	technomancy	at this point it's like who/whom
14:36	amalloy	technomancy: you mean that snobby people use the wrong one so that they can sound educated?
14:37	technomancy	heh
14:37	amalloy	llasram: yeah, i wouldn't say anything unless asked to proofread
14:37	l1x	so what happens when I use an example code from a clojure project? like i use tools.cli https://github.com/clojure/tools.cli and I use the example displyed there
14:37	hyPiRion	If people already use it wrongly, then that would explain why I am confused
14:38	technomancy	l1x: there's something called the "threshold of copyright" meaning that trivial expressions can't be copyrighted
14:38	arrdem	technomancy: because that holds so strongly in the software domain...
14:39	l1x	but if i want to be sure that nobody sues my ass i better license my code under EPL just because i used the example from tools.cli ?
14:39	technomancy	you need to display some modicum of creative effort to claim copyright
14:40	technomancy	no, license your code under the EPL because it's a good license =)
14:40	justin_smith	also I think that things used as documentation as examples are assumed to provide permission to reuse and modify
14:40	joegallo	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjunctive_mood#English study up, there'll be a test later
14:41	l1x	justin_smith: i hope so
14:41	l1x	technomancy: what is the difference between EPL vs APL v2
14:41	l1x	my understanding was that APLv2 is good because you have to give up your IPs
14:41	arrdem	,(number? 2/3)
14:41	clojurebot	true
14:42	arrdem	,(type 2/3)
14:42	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Ratio
14:42	technomancy	l1x: the main differences are that EPL is copyleft and APL makes you put a bunch of boilerplate junk in every file
14:42	technomancy	l1x: "give up your IPs" doesn't really mean anything
14:42	technomancy	unless you're talking about a DHCP lease
14:42	llasram	technomancy: I don't think the Apache license requires that. I think the Apache foundation just requires that
14:43	amalloy	dangit, technomancy beats me to the punch on an IPv4 joke
14:43	sm0ke	lol
14:43	technomancy	llasram: oh, gotcha
14:43	kenrestivo	i didn't really consider EPL copyleft
14:43	technomancy	kenrestivo: it's weak copyleft like the LGPL
14:44	arrdem	the EPL is so weakly copyleft that the FSF rips on it :P
14:44	amalloy	it's a less aggressive copyleft than GPL for sure
14:44	l1x	technomancy: right i was referring to copyleft
14:44	technomancy	except it doesn't have "GPL" in the name, so it doesn't freak out the suits
14:44	l1x	so afaik both EPL and APL are copylefty
14:44	technomancy	IIRC the main difference between the LGPL and the EPL is the latter has slightly stronger patent protection provisions
14:44	l1x	https://tldrlegal.com/license/apache-license-2.0-(apache-2.0) https://tldrlegal.com/license/eclipse-public-license-1.0-(epl-1.0)
14:44	technomancy	l1x: no, APL is more permissive
14:47	l1x	i see
14:47	devn	(defn third [coll] (nth coll 3)) (defn thirst [coll] (third (first coll))) (defn thirsty? [coll] (boolean (first coll)))
14:47	devn	good times.
14:47	sm0ke	Welcome to #licensing! For more info visit http://licensing.com/
14:48	technomancy	maybe Licenser would have some advice
14:48	l1x	well, sorry but it is relevant to this channel :)
14:49	arrdem	sm0ke: well that's not what I expected...
14:49	sm0ke	you had a problem, and tried to use license, now you have two law suits
14:49	arrdem	(inc sm0ke)
14:49	lazybot	⇒ 6
14:49	arrdem	bloody suits... c&ding me for my fan programming projects..
14:50	l1x	i have to think twice to opensource any code it seems
14:50	jcromartie	arrdem: which one would that be?
14:51	technomancy	l1x: it's a lot less complicated if everyone sticks with the same license
14:51	arrdem	jcromartie: one that's no longer public at the request of Privateer Press.
14:51	l1x	technomancy: yes but my company approved only APLv2
14:52	technomancy	oh, that's crappy =\
14:52	technomancy	but as long as you don't copy/paste you should be ok
14:52	devn	what is the dyson bladeless fan of programming languages?
14:52	kenrestivo	arrdem: Elsevier?
14:53	arrdem	kenrestivo: huh? no...
14:54	dbasch	Prismatic’s fnhouse looks promising, but I can’t find a good sample app. It comes with an extremely basic one (guesthouse) that’s not very well documented.
15:02	Licenser	technomancy don't use GPL ;)
15:05	johnjelinek	question: at what point do you look at your functions and say, "I need to refactor this"
15:05	johnjelinek	or "this is too gross to look at"?
15:06	justin_smith	johnjelinek: it is time to refactor when I look at the code and don't have any idea what I was trying to do
15:06	johnjelinek	justin_smith: lol, only then?
15:06	justin_smith	often I am forced to notice this when a bug is lost in the logic somewhere
15:07	johnjelinek	isn't it too late when you've come to that point?
15:07	justin_smith	johnjelinek: that's not the only time I refactor
15:07	johnjelinek	when is the earliest you refactor?
15:07	justin_smith	when a function is more than 7 lines long
15:08	justin_smith	(I just made that number up, it's a hunch I get as functions get longer)
15:09	johnjelinek	lol
15:09	johnjelinek	real scientific, I see ;)
15:10	justin_smith	also if I see I am repeating myself
15:10	technomancy	I have an emacs mode that forces you to stop typing if your function is over 25 linees
15:11	TimMc	Oh, like Eclipse + PMD.
15:11	TimMc	except it only tells you when you try to build
15:12	TimMc	Actually, no, it's not at all the same.
15:15	kenrestivo	technomancy: link?
15:16	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/dotfiles/blob/master/.emacs.d/phil/programming.el#L30
15:18	cbp	that is horrible
15:18	johnjelinek	lololol
15:18	johnjelinek	why?
15:18	clojurebot	why is the ram gone
15:18	justin_smith	cbp: no, horrible would be a timer where it lets the code sit there for 30 seconds and then comes back and deletes it
15:19	technomancy	calling it a mode may be a bit generous
15:19	pjstadig	just turn it into a oneliner...done!
15:20	cbp	I bet he has another where it stops you from going past 80 column lines so it fits into his terminal
15:20	pjstadig	hmm
15:20	pjstadig	good point
15:20	justin_smith	how about a cookiecutter function, cuts off anything to the right of 8 columns, and anything below 26 lines
15:20	justin_smith	if it can't fit on an old school terminal window, it shouldn't exist
15:20	justin_smith	*80
15:21	johnjelinek	technomancy: do lets go into your line count?
15:22	technomancy	johnjelinek: yeah, it's not picky
15:22	pjstadig	TBH, if you're counting lines in a lisp you're doing it wrong
15:23	dbasch	you could end up with abominations like this, to fit in 25 lines: https://gist.github.com/dbasch/6923514
15:27	grimmulfr	What would be an "official" way of getting json requests from within clojure/clojurescript? clj-http?
15:28	justin_smith	grimmulfr: in clojurescript, probably just use interop / AJAX
15:28	dbasch	grimmulfr: from cljs, cljs-ajax
15:28	grimmulfr	Cheers, will look into those.
15:29	justin_smith	slurp will work for get requests, clj-http if you need anything fancy
15:29	justin_smith	also there is http.async.client for async requests if you need that
15:32	grimmulfr	I just need a way to get JSON formatted data from my backends into my code so I can interpret, so anything will probably do I guess, as long as it;s not overkill to implement.
15:33	grimmulfr	Just your average "send details" and interpret response. Forms and whatnot
15:33	kenrestivo	grimmulfr: i use (require '[cheshire.core :as json]) (-> "http://something.com/foo" slurp (json/decode true))
15:33	kenrestivo	ain't no official tho, just expedient
15:35	justin_smith	kenrestivo: yeah, if you don't need to do the request async, or make a post request or query parameters, that's the right way as far as I am concerned
15:39	grimmulfr	Ok, will look into all of those. Cheers
16:08	technomancy	amalloy, hiredman: you two are ok with APL-ing serializable-fn, right?
16:10	mpenet	anyone knows if c.c.typed can annotate defmethod ?
16:10	hiredman	technomancy: sure
16:10	mpenet	defmulti yes, but I can't find an example for defmethod
16:25	technomancy	heh, cascalog claims to be EPL'd in some places and Apache'd in others
16:26	gfredericks	mpenet I think the idea might be that you only need to do the defmulti?
16:26	gfredericks	and all the defmethods have the same type
16:26	gfredericks	otherwise it would be difficult to determine the type of a call
16:29	blake__	Hey, if I have "(defmacro whatever [parm] code code code...)" immediately followed by "(defmacro whatever [parm] parm)" am I correct to assume that the second defmacro overwrites the first?
16:29	blake__	And that this might be done to deliberately stub out the first (potentially expensive or disruptive) call without breaking code?
16:29	justin_smith	blake__: I think it is done so that you can have proper recursion
16:30	justin_smith	or maybe not with macros actually...
16:30	blake__	justin_smith: How would that be even if they were functions? Since the second one does nothing but return the passed value?
16:31	justin_smith	blake__: it does it so that the recursion would be possible
16:31	justin_smith	even though clearly you did not use that facility
16:32	blake__	justin_smith: I don't get it.
16:34	justin_smith	blake__: it has to have its own symbol resolvable within its body
16:34	justin_smith	in case you wanted recursion
16:36	blake__	justin_smith: OK, but in this case, is it reasonable to assume the second macro exists to stub out the first? (It's not my code, and the first macro looks to be for profiling.)
16:37	technomancy	amalloy: ping
16:38	ToxicFrog	<violets> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE9Pn0eBK https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3cZbQaqYN4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE9Pn0eBKRA
16:38	ToxicFrog	Er
16:38	justin_smith	blake__: I really don't know, the second macro, if both are in the same ns, totally replaces the first
16:38	ToxicFrog	Mischan, disregard.
16:39	justin_smith	I would take that as a smell indicating a poorly maintained codebase
16:39	blake__	justin_smith: OK, thanks.
16:45	amalloy	technomancy: i'm back! i was suffering from a linode outage
16:45	technomancy	amalloy: my condolances
16:45	technomancy	amalloy: just thought I'd confirm you're OK with the dual-licensing of serializable-fn
16:45	amalloy	yeah, feel free
16:46	technomancy	cool
16:46	amalloy	i was wondering whether you needed my consent or not
16:47	technomancy	if it were just a matter of me giving the thumbs up then I'd feel kinda silly opening an issue with them
16:47	amalloy	eh, i dunno. it's still useful to remind them that copyright matters
16:47	technomancy	"there is a problem. please ask me to re-license some software in order to fix it." / "will you re-license it?" / "ok" / "well then"
16:48	technomancy	I know, but it's good to do it in a way that doesn't make you sound like a pedant
16:48	technomancy	even if you are one
16:48	technomancy	closed https://github.com/nathanmarz/cascalog/issues/249
16:48	gtrak	technomancy: my attempt at structure, let's see what happens :-) https://github.com/clojure-emacs/cider/issues/546
16:48	justin_smith	technomancy: I see it more like "this is my request that you demonstrate that you know how to ask nicely"
16:49	justin_smith	which is reasonable, and doesn't need to involve pedantry
16:49	justin_smith	just respect
16:49	technomancy	justin_smith: it's easier to justify the request if it involves coordinating among multiple people, but yeah.
16:50	technomancy	it becomes "would you like me to help you with your problem" instead of "I'm causing your problem" =)
16:50	amalloy	well, there goes my chance at patent-troll millions
16:50	technomancy	gtrak: cool; hope that goes well
16:52	justin_smith	gtrak: if that is accepted, I may even try cider. I check it out occassionally but I see scary visions of a hairy yak that threatens to steal days of my productivity. A stable release would help.
16:53	gtrak	justin_smith: yea, I hate the emacs way of doing things :-). cider needs that.
16:54	gtrak	I learn things in emacs by accident.
16:54	technomancy	emacs is drawing you deeper into its gravity well
16:56	gtrak	Don't worry, I'm a pretty hateful person.
16:56	gtrak	but maybe that's why it works.. sigh.
16:57	technomancy	http://its.a.trap.jpg.to
16:58	gtrak	just yesterday I accidently typed M-s o in a C-s search and was flabbergasted at the utility.
16:59	technomancy	3>
16:59	gtrak	occur-mode
16:59	justin_smith	gtrak: cool, I use occur because it is very handy, but did not know about the m-s o binding
17:00	justin_smith	also m-x rgrep if you want something similar, but based on a subtree of your fs
17:00	gtrak	been using ack-and-a-half for that
17:00	justin_smith	gtrak: is that package thing?
17:00	gtrak	yea, it's a UI over ack, which is like a grep made for code.
17:01	technomancy	M-x rgrep is nice, but rgrep from eshell is nicer
17:01	justin_smith	ahh cool, so I assume it ends up with a clickable reference buffer like occur / rgrep do
17:01	gtrak	justin_smith: yes
17:01	justin_smith	awesome
17:01	gtrak	what's great about ack is it just looks nicer than grep with no effort on your part
17:01	gtrak	use it the same way
17:01	justin_smith	technomancy: thanks for the hint
17:02	technomancy	justin_smith: but without the promptfest
17:02	nullptr	grep, ack, ag, and now pt -- https://github.com/monochromegane/the_platinum_searcher
17:02	nullptr	and all four have emacs packages
17:02	justin_smith	technomancy: hmm, rgrep from eshell does not give me clickables
17:03	technomancy	justin_smith: weird!
17:03	gtrak	nullptr: I read that as 'all have four emacs packages', which is true for ack.
17:03	nullptr	heh
17:03	justin_smith	technomancy: probably a config or version thing
17:04	justin_smith	(that was a low information statement)
17:04	technomancy	justin_smith: oh yeah crap. I forget if I submitted this back upstream: https://github.com/technomancy/dotfiles/blob/master/.emacs.d/phil/my-eshell.el#L6
17:09	coventry	Is there a command-line rgrep for OS X?
17:09	justin_smith	the above ack / ag / pt are all osx I think
17:10	justin_smith	and of course grep -R
17:10	Raynes	<3 ack
17:11	justin_smith	with vanilla grep, -r does not follow symbolic links, -R does
17:11	justin_smith	though of course you probably want egrep not grep
17:11	dbasch	you can always combine find and grep to save time
17:11	justin_smith	grep is how it is for posix reasons
17:12	justin_smith	dbasch: is it faster because you can tell it which files to search for matches in?
17:12	dbasch	justin_smith: right
17:12	dbasch	e.g. find . -name \*.clj -exec grep main {} \;
17:12	justin_smith	M-x rgrep does that (it prompts for a regex for the files to check for matches in)
17:30	mercwithamouth	so clojure experts and people generally smarter than me... for the last few days i've been looking over this article about using friend and liberator together and i'll admit it's still overwhelming. http://sritchie.github.io/2014/01/17/api-authentication-with-liberator-and-friend/
17:30	mercwithamouth	I'm wondering...is this approach absolutely necessary? do you have to tie the two libraries together in order to use both liberator and friend?
17:31	egghead	nope mercwithamouth
17:31	justin_smith	mercwithamouth: well, security only makes sense if you have a clean division of "inside" and "outside" - if anything liberator does crosses the inside/outside boundary, then they have to be integrated
17:32	egghead	you can just use friend over your route definitions
17:32	egghead	instead of deep integrating with liberator
17:32	justin_smith	ahh, good point egghead yeah
17:32	justin_smith	(that's still a kind of integration :P)
17:32	egghead	but the integration is w/ compojure instead of liberator :)
17:32	egghead	and liberator happens to integrate very nicely w/ compojure too :x
17:32	justin_smith	fair enough
17:33	egghead	I hit that same wall w/ friend + liberator
17:33	mercwithamouth	hmm
17:33	mercwithamouth	egghead: you wouldn't happen to have any public code would you?
17:33	egghead	sure mercwithamouth
17:34	justin_smith	https://github.com/hiredman/ideapad/blob/master/src/com/thelastcitadel/ideapad.clj this is a friend example that hiredman shared
17:34	egghead	mercwithamouth: https://github.com/eggsby/warden/blob/master/src/clj/warden/api.clj#L117-L152
17:34	egghead	nothing fancy
17:35	mercwithamouth	sweet! thanks
17:36	mercwithamouth	egghead: the simpler the better...i can build up from there once i get more comfortable
17:36	egghead	ya, that example is just basic http auth
17:37	egghead	and no roles, just either you are authed or not
17:37	egghead	the one justin_smith linked is a lot more in-depth
17:41	mercwithamouth	egghead: yeah yours is clear...i should be able to pick up on most of what i think i'll need from these two examples
17:42	mercwithamouth	lol it's clear that i have a long way to go with understanding lisp...
17:53	dnolen_	wow, 9 GSoC Clojure projects?
17:56	justin_smith	very impressive
18:11	d0ky	hello does enybody know how to post data with goog.net.Xhrio ? im trying to post vector of string or string .. depend on situatuions .. and i receive only something like params {:v nullo=null} how send all data like ["viktor" "one"] i tried (pr-str data) but it didn't work ..
18:13	hiredman	d0ky: https://github.com/hiredman/drawbridge-cljs/blob/master/src-cljs/drawbridge/client.cljs#L70-L94 the most relevant bit being the QueryData object
18:17	d0ky	hiredman: and is there any simplier way ? when i use read-from from enfocus it works ... but now i dont send data from any form
18:18	Frozenlock	d0ky: What are you trying to do? There might be libraries for that.
18:19	hiredman	d0ky: dunno, I am not familiar with enfocus
18:20	d0ky	Frozenlock: i want to send data from multiselect but before sending it i want to filter them with an atom to send the less the possible data to server
18:21	Frozenlock	I don't understand... why would you need an atom to filter?
18:22	d0ky	Frozenlock: i have stored some data
18:22	d0ky	Frozenlock: in atom
18:23	d0ky	so i have vector i want to send to server
18:25	Frozenlock	d0ky: ok... so the atom and filtering stuff really isn't revelant. :-p
18:25	Frozenlock	You want to send a vector to the server. I've been using this recently and I like it https://github.com/JulianBirch/cljs-ajax
18:25	d0ky	Frozenlock: yes it isnt :)
18:27	d0ky	Frozenlock: thanks .. i will try there a solution :)
18:29	d0ky	Frozenlock: it works when i created a map like: {:in (pr-str dest-user)} and i can clearly read data on server
18:29	TravisD	Given some r, is there any non-stylistic difference between (dosync (ref-set r (f @r))) and (dosync (alter r f))?
18:30	hiredman	yes
18:30	hiredman	the later is correct
18:31	TravisD	That's what i thought, but I'm confused about why the first one is wrong. Since both the reading and writing to r occur in a transaction, aren't they protected from other reads and writes?
18:39	TravisD	hiredman: do you know the answer?
18:41	hiredman	TravisD: actually I may be wrong, it looks like derefing a ref is actually recording as a read in the transaction, so it may restart the transaction if a deref'ed ref's value changes
18:41	justin_smith	but the latter is still more clear
18:42	amalloy	there might be some weird corner cases where f is a non-pure function, which alters r and also some other ref?
18:42	amalloy	but in most cases the former is just a grosser version of the latter
18:43	hiredman	amalloy: well, it would still be altering the other ref in a transaction
18:43	justin_smith	I wonder if the former would be more likely to trigger a retry of the transaction?
18:44	TravisD	Cool. I was mostly asking because I was worried that there were some sneaky situations in more complicated transactions that could cause problems
18:45	TravisD	like, in a more complicated transaction I could see using @r in a let block which eventually set-refed r again
18:45	TravisD	ref-set
18:46	hiredman	I have yet to see code outside of maybe the ants demo, where using refs and the stm was good, in general most places I have seen it would be just as correct, and simpler, using an atom
18:47	TravisD	Ah, I see
18:47	amalloy	yeah, that's my rule of thumb for concurrency: "if you think you need a ref, you're probably wrong"
18:47	coventry	TravisD: My understanding is that the ref-set version isn't going to trigger a retry if r has changed during the transaction, whereas alter will.
18:47	hiredman	so if you have large complicated usages of the stm, I take a good long look at it
18:47	amalloy	coventry: no, because reading r with @r causes it to be protected by the transaction
18:48	TravisD	hehe, cool. Anyways, I'm actually just rereading the chapter on concurrency
18:48	TravisD	g2g!
19:47	zeroem	yogthos: considering using selmer for a non html templates. Is there an easy way to disable escape-html for the entire call to render?
19:48	whomp	i can't get vim mode to work in light table, any ideas?
19:49	yogthos	zeroem: don't think there is, another problem is that tags that are on lines by themselves will leave a blank line currently
19:50	whomp	nm got it
19:58	zeroem1	yogthos: thanks, may be a pull request in the future
20:00	yogthos	zeroem1: sure thing, it could easily be a flag
20:42	TravisD	amalloy, hiredman: Sorry about leaving so abruptly. I realized that I was already 10 minutes late for a meeting! Anyways, I wasn't using refs in any complicated way, but I have been reading about concurrency in clojure and I was just wondering :)
21:04	TravisD	Does await always return nil?
21:06	ticking	TravisD: looks like it, await returns (. latch (await)), which in turn is a void method
21:06	TravisD	Ah, cool. I feel like it should be mentioned in the docstring, since it's pretty plausible that it would return the agent's value or something
21:07	TravisD	the docstring for await-for also doesn't say that it returns true if the await didn't time out
21:07	ticking	use to code luke
21:07	ticking	*the
21:07	TravisD	:)
21:07	TravisD	I looked at it quickly, but then decided to ask
21:07	ticking	but yeah you are right, it should be mentioned
21:12	arrdem	lazybot: reading the code is a poor excuse for worse documentation
21:12	TravisD	lazybot seems not to care
21:38	TravisD	with a ref transcation, I can do multiple things like first read the value of the ref, and then update it. Is there a way to do the same with atoms? I have a lazy-seq of numbers and I want multiple threads to take turns reading them so that no two threads get the same numbers
21:39	gfredericks	yep
21:39	gfredericks	TravisD: https://github.com/Prismatic/plumbing/blob/master/src/plumbing/core.clj#L325-335
21:39	TravisD	oh cool
21:40	gfredericks	alternatively you could add a nil onto the front and then just make the first thing be assumed to have been read already
21:40	TravisD	I don't understand the second thing you said
21:41	gfredericks	,(let [my-nums [10 20 30 40] a (atom (cons nil my-nums)) read-num #(first (swap! a rest))] [(read-num) (read-num)])
21:41	clojurebot	[10 20]
21:42	gfredericks	,(defn make-iterator [nums] (comp first (partial swap! (atom (cons nil nums)) rest)))
21:42	clojurebot	#'sandbox/make-iterator
21:42	TravisD	aha.
21:42	gfredericks	,(def my-nums (make-iterater (shuffle (range 20))))
21:42	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: make-iterater in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
21:42	gfredericks	,(def my-nums (make-iterator (shuffle (range 20))))
21:42	clojurebot	#'sandbox/my-nums
21:42	gfredericks	,(read-num my-nums)
21:42	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: read-num in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
21:42	gfredericks	,(my-nums)
21:42	clojurebot	19
21:42	gfredericks	,(my-nums)
21:42	clojurebot	3
21:42	gfredericks	,(my-nums)
21:42	clojurebot	16
21:43	TravisD	I came kind of close. I imagined doing (do (swap! a rest) (first @a))
21:44	gfredericks	oh yeah that's racey
21:44	TravisD	yeah :(
21:44	gfredericks	which is of course why swap! returns the new value
21:44	TravisD	yeah :D
21:44	TravisD	it is exactly the reason
21:44	gfredericks	I've also done hairier things where you set some metadata on the return value and pull it out afterwards
21:44	ticking	arrdem: It depends I'd say, if you just want to know a property like a return type in weird border cases of a fn like in this case, the code is the right place to go. Having to read through all the code to learn a lib is a different thing though.
21:45	TravisD	ah, yeah, I never think of using metadata for anything
21:45	gfredericks	despite what bbloom says I think metadata usage is mysterious and impossible to summarize
21:45	bbloom	gfredericks: did i ever say it makes perfect sense? i'm constantly flip flopping on how i feel about it :-P
21:46	TravisD	hehe
21:46	arrdem	ticking: how is the _constant return value_ of a function a "weird border case"?
21:46	bbloom	most important thing: metadata does not influence equality
21:46	gfredericks	bbloom: yes this is the exact statement I'm complaining about
21:46	bbloom	both useful and terrible :-)
21:46	arrdem	ticking: that something is "(constantly nil) for side effects" should be docstring content.
21:46	gfredericks	bbloom: because that has nothing to do with the usage of metadata on fns and references
21:46	ticking	arrdem: seems like it was emergent behaviour, which the author did not really care about
21:47	TravisD	bbloom: One might mistakenly read that as "terribly useful"
21:47	bbloom	TravisD: that too
21:47	ticking	arrdem: (.await latch) could have returned something useful, or may do so in the future
21:47	arrdem	TravisD: zippers would argue that case...
21:47	gfredericks	bbloom: I could imagine arguing that metadata on values and metadata on other things are just two different features with the same name
21:48	TravisD	are zippers in clojure implemented using metadata??
21:48	lazybot	TravisD: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
21:48	TravisD	heh
21:48	arrdem	ticking: then the docs should _say so_. return types are bloody important!
21:48	bbloom	gfredericks: you mean metadata on value vs identity equality semantics?
21:48	bbloom	yeah, metadata on identities seems a bit odd...
21:48	gfredericks	bbloom: but super useful though
21:48	bbloom	yeah
21:49	gfredericks	vars being the biggest example of course
21:49	ticking	arrdem: I'm not saying it should't do it, I said that it would be useful in this case, still it took me literally 3 seconds to look up the function and see what it does
21:49	gfredericks	but say you wanted to attach a history tracker to an identity; super easy with metadata & watchers
21:49	bbloom	gfredericks: for sure. i basically view metadata as a MASSIVE IMPROVEMENT on the proplists stuff in CL but still not quite "right" yet
21:49	ticking	arrdem: docs are important yes, but the computer does not execute documentation, and it's our job to read code...
21:50	gfredericks	,(alter-var-root #'partial (fn [f] (comp #(vary-meta % assoc :type :partial-fn) f)))
21:50	clojurebot	#<core$comp$fn__4192 clojure.core$comp$fn__4192@9b9707>
21:51	gfredericks	,(alter-var-root #'partial (fn [p] (fn [& args] (vary-meta (apply p args) assoc :type :partial-fn :args args))))
21:51	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval242$fn__243$fn__244 sandbox$eval242$fn__243$fn__244@cb43a9>
21:51	gfredericks	,(defmethod print-method :partial-fn [f pw] (print-method (list* 'partial (:args (meta f))) pw))
21:52	clojurebot	#<MultiFn clojure.lang.MultiFn@1643eda>
21:52	gfredericks	,(partial + 1 2 3)
21:52	clojurebot	#<core$partial$fn__4232 clojure.core$partial$fn__4232@1923658>
21:52	arrdem	ticking: saying "oh well I can just grab source" is just waving aside the failure of the documentation in question. I can't claim that I'm innocent of this, but that we have the luxury of open source libraries is no excuse for lacking docs, especially when it comes to effective return type.
21:52	gfredericks	aw snap
21:52	gfredericks	,(meta (partial + 1 2 3))
21:52	clojurebot	nil
21:52	gfredericks	,(alter-var-root #'partial (fn [p] (fn [& args] (vary-meta (apply p args) assoc :type :partial-fn :args args))))
21:52	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval99$fn__100$fn__101 sandbox$eval99$fn__100$fn__101@15316d4>
21:52	gfredericks	,(meta (partial + 1 2 3))
21:52	clojurebot	{:args (#<core$_PLUS_ clojure.core$_PLUS_@11e8225> 1 2 3), :type :partial-fn}
21:52	gfredericks	,(partial + 1 2 3)
21:52	clojurebot	(partial #<core$_PLUS_ clojure.core$_PLUS_@11e8225> 1 2 3)
21:52	TravisD	Alright. So what I really want is to have a convenient way for different threads to get their own random number generators. I also want to be able to reproduce results by using one seed to set up the entire system. Is this a reasonable approach? In each new thread you could invoke whatever random-wizardry you wanted, wrapped with a (with-new-rng...)
21:52	gfredericks	meh
21:52	TravisD	https://www.refheap.com/22d202e77c7d58b429d818c9b
21:53	arrdem	ticking: this isn't you, I'm on a docstrings tear today :P
21:53	gfredericks	TravisD: github.com/fredericksgary/four
21:53	ticking	arrdem: again, I said it should be changed
21:53	TravisD	gfredericks: Ah, cool. I saw it on the clojars search, but the name "four" threw me off
21:53	gfredericks	it's so obvious!
21:54	TravisD	gfredericks: Does the snippet of code I posted look sane anyways?
21:55	TravisD	and what does four mean?
21:55	gfredericks	http://xkcd.com/221/
21:55	TravisD	Ah!
21:55	TravisD	amazing
21:55	TravisD	(inc gfredericks)
21:55	lazybot	⇒ 53
21:55	ticking	arrdem: but lets face it, most code, even clojure code, sucks monkeyballs. the docs are even worse if they exist at all, so learning to read code (clojuredocs.org has a small code box for every fn) will only help you become more independent (and be a better programmer)
21:56	gfredericks	TravisD: yeah it looks fine; you could use this var instead if you wanted: https://github.com/fredericksgary/four/blob/master/src/four/stateful.clj#L4
21:56	ticking	arrdem: I feel though that there is quite a general dogma against reading code
21:57	gfredericks	unless that custom random class you have there is not a subclass of java.util.Random :/
21:57	TravisD	gfredericks: I don't think it is :( I read some terrifying posts about running into trouble doing experiments with crappy random number generators
21:57	TravisD	so I was looking for a library with a few different prngs
21:57	TravisD	apache.commons.math3 has the main ones, I think
21:58	gfredericks	is it weird that rand-int uses java.util.Random to generate longs that get turned into a double that gets coerced back into an int?
21:58	TravisD	pft, no, that's obviously the right way to do it
21:58	arrdem	ticking: speaking as a compiler author, code is not literature. Code is directives to your retarded best friend, the compiler, explaining to him how to tell his dumber moneky the processor how to munge integers into getting the right result. Code was never supposed to be written by humans for reading by humans. Humans read code because either something's wrong or because the human who wrote the code in the first place didn't make obvious what
21:59	TravisD	Knuth disagrees!
21:59	TravisD	or, not really, actually
21:59	arrdem	TravisD: Knuth wants us to write books that _contain_ code.
21:59	gfredericks	,(time (nth (repeatedly #(rand-int 100)) 1000000))
21:59	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 272.405993 msecs"\n45
21:59	TravisD	yeah, I remembered that after blurting it out :(
22:00	ticking	arrdem TravisD: hal abelson disagrees though Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute.
22:00	gfredericks	,(let [r (java.util.Random. 42)] (time (nth (repeatedly #(mod (.nextLong r) 100)) 1000000)))
22:00	dbasch	(inc ticking)
22:00	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 314.686804 msecs"\n44
22:00	lazybot	⇒ 1
22:01	gfredericks	TravisD: looks like it's still pretty fast though :)
22:01	TravisD	gfredericks: :)
22:01	gfredericks	maybe it's the mod
22:01	gfredericks	,(let [r (java.util.Random. 42)] (time (nth (repeatedly #(bit-and (.nextLong r) 127)) 1000000)))
22:01	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 137.186877 msecs"\n92
22:02	TravisD	ticking: I don't actually feel strongly on the subject. It would be wonderful if all code could be read, but I also think that many things are complicated without explanation
22:02	gfredericks	yay now it's faster
22:02	TravisD	huh, wow. That's a surprisingly big difference between mod and bit-and
22:02	arrdem	ticking: Okay great, you can say that, but the reality is that code is written for machines to run it. We built computers because we wanted to tackle integer and matrix programming problems that were too complicated for humans to do by hand in a reasonable timeframe.
22:03	dbasch	arrdem: have you ever worked as part of a large software team?
22:03	arrdem	ticking: It wasn't until later that we developed languages above the machine directive layer
22:03	ticking	arrdem: Thought = Math = Code
22:04	ticking	and Speech = Thought
22:04	arrdem	ticking: you just made my argument for documentation in two lines.
22:05	ticking	arrdem: elaborate
22:07	arrdem	ticking: What's to say? We can't transmit or persist thoughts, so we persist writing and sometimes sound as the closest proxies thereto yet invented by man. These contain the math from which code is derived. Thus documentation is an isomorphism of the code in a human "native" format rather than a ^^ (somewhat less) retarded compiler native format.
22:08	ticking	arrdem: why do you asume that code is not a native human format, it was invented by humans, long before there were computers (e.g. lamba calc)
22:08	ticking	and to me it seems that Speech = Thought = Math = Code =\|= an informal ad hoc description
22:08	arrdem	ticking: what was the last time you read FORTRAN code :P
22:09	ticking	what does fortran have to do with that?
22:09	ticking	fortran is still more readable albeit slower than assembly
22:10	ticking	also why do you say that speech and writings are only an aproximation of thought?
22:10	ticking	to me it seems that they are a serialization format which allows you to perfectly recreate thoughts
22:10	arrdem	because "true" thought storage would be networked BCIs and a hivemind.
22:11	ticking	how is telepathy transmitted by air any different than telepathy by magic/electricity
22:11	arrdem	text is, as you say, a serialization that allows us to recover thoughts often imperfectly with learning involved.
22:13	arrdem	the three are functionally identical, and distinct from text in that there is no learning involved on the part of a reader. I have before me an algorithms textbook and homework. Simply by reading the textbook I am not armed with the tools required to solve the problems therein. I have to explore the ideas therein for myself and populate my own understanding neural graphs in a way that "shared" thought does not/would not demand.
22:14	ticking	sorry my bt keyboard gave up
22:14	arrdem	When I read code, I play compiler and interpreter. I have to understand, scan, parse, and explore the behavior of the code. When I read docs (good ones at least) I am given functions as black boxes that I can reason about easily with little to no loading.
22:15	ticking	yes but the same is true for regular thought
22:15	ticking	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subvocalization_(Learning_and_Memory)
22:15	dbasch	arrdem: I’m 44. I’ve been in the software industry for decades. I’ve seen things you wouldn’t believe. 5 1/4 floppies on fire off the shoulder of Orion
22:16	ticking	there is no regular thought without speech, when you hear you inner voice to reflect about the world, you activate your vocal cords involutarily, this is not surpressable and required
22:16	TravisD	dbasch: :) I can see the rain
22:16	dbasch	enjoy reading beautiful documentation while you can, one day you might get paid to… I won’t spoil it
22:17	arrdem	dbasch: I've already been paid to revers engineer an undocumented OS boot sequence so that I could inject bringup timing sensitive driver code. I'll fight for my documentation thank you.
22:17	dbasch	TravisD: c-beams glitter and all that :)
22:17	TravisD	hehehe
22:17	TravisD	I will watch that movie tonight.
22:17	ticking	dbasch TravisD arrdem: I think the marginalia aproach is really good, code for the what and how, documentation for the why and wtf
22:18	dbasch	arrdem: I foresee endless battles against Directors/VPs who need everything to work yesterday
22:18	TravisD	ticking: Yeah, I was taking a look at that before. It makes really pretty documents
22:19	ticking	TravisD: could need a better index and search though, but that is first world complaining
22:19	TravisD	ticking: Also, in your last message I mentally replaced "wtf" with "what they're for" ;)
22:19	arrdem	dbasch: funny... if the hardware team had documented that MMIO segment worth a damn when the built it, my job would have taken 30 minutes rather than three weeks...
22:20	dbasch	arrdem: if I had a dollar for every time I heard something like that… wait, I do :)
22:20	ticking	arrdem: and if they had documented it wrongly it would have taken you three months ^^
22:20	ticking	no docs > wrong docs
22:20	dbasch	or docs that used to be right, probably the more common case
22:21	arrdem	well I had _those_ :C
22:21	TravisD	old docs might provide clues for the code detective
22:21	ticking	dbasch: yeah, people that write wrong docs on the first try are a special kind of species
22:22	ticking	TravisD: yeah, but unless you know that they are outdated, they will f* you in the a
22:22	TravisD	ticking: It's getting harder to avoid your profanity with clever substitutions ;)
22:22	TravisD	Fling you in the air
22:22	ticking	nice
22:23	TravisD	one too many letters though :(
22:23	ticking	TravisD: I spend an entire day debugging cluster code that fails because of how the compiler precompiles lambdas and then serializes them
22:24	ticking	TravisD: so trust me, I'm holding back on the profanities ^^
22:27	TravisD	hehe :) I must live in some sort of heaven
22:28	dbell	fun to run if you want to get an idea of how clojure deals with order of hash-map entries as size increases: (keys (apply hash-map (interleave (range 1000) (range 1000 2000))))
22:36	gfredericks	is bound-fn terrible?
22:37	bbloom	gfredericks: http://okmij.org/ftp/Computation/dynamic-binding.html
22:37	bbloom	gfredericks: bound-fn : call/cc :: something-better : shift/reset
22:38	gfredericks	bbloom: hell if I will ever understand continuations
22:39	bbloom	gfredericks: good news: i attempt to explain them in this audio: http://www.mixcloud.com/paperswelove/bbloom_3_17_2014_programming_with_alegebraic_effectshandlers/ :-)
22:39	gfredericks	,(def ^:dynamic x 33)
22:39	clojurebot	#'sandbox/x
22:39	gfredericks	,(def get-x (binding [x 44] (bound-fn [] x)))
22:39	clojurebot	#'sandbox/get-x
22:39	gfredericks	,(get-x)
22:39	clojurebot	44
22:40	gfredericks	,(binding [x 55] (get-x))
22:40	clojurebot	44
22:40	gfredericks	oh wait nevermind
22:40	gfredericks	but do mind this part
22:40	gfredericks	,(def get-x (bound-fn [] x))
22:40	clojurebot	#'sandbox/get-x
22:40	gfredericks	,(binding [x 99] (get-x))
22:40	clojurebot	99
22:40	gfredericks	I know what's going on but it just makes me grumpy
22:41	amalloy	,(first (binding [x 99] (lazy-seq [(get-x)])))
22:41	clojurebot	33
22:41	amalloy	just for fun
22:41	bbloom	gfredericks: yeah, bound-fn is wonky
22:41	bbloom	gfredericks: oleg's thing explains how it should really work
22:42	ticking	has anyone experience with proxy and serialisation? I'd prefer to avoid custom java classes, but I could imagine that serializing proxies might create a lot of classes.
22:54	gfredericks	well now I know about print-readably :/
22:55	ticking	dat unicode unsuport
22:57	amalloy	gfredericks: i know that it exists, but not what it does. it sounds almost like the opposite of print-dup, but it can't be that
23:00	gfredericks	amalloy: it turns of pr I think
23:00	gfredericks	,(pr-str "foo")
23:00	clojurebot	"\"foo\""
23:00	gfredericks	,(binding [print-readably false] (pr-str "foo"))
23:00	clojurebot	"foo"
23:00	gfredericks	no idea why that is a thing you would need to do in that manner
23:01	gfredericks	we should have another var that makes println act like print
23:05	gfredericks	for every function foo we should have a parallel dynamic var foo-works that defaults to true
23:09	MarlaBrown1	why does conj behave differently for lists and vectors?
23:10	dbasch	MarlaBrown1: because it inserts the element at the “cheapest” place for each structure
23:10	dbasch	for a list, the cheapest place is the head
23:10	dbasch	for a vector, the end
23:10	MarlaBrown1	cheapest meaning most efficient in the internal tree structure?
23:10	dbasch	yes
23:11	MarlaBrown1	gotcha, thanks
23:37	yedi	does anyone know the link that has cljs and the equivalent js stuff side by side
23:39	yedi	found it
23:41	TimMc	I'd like to use drawbridge to get a remote REPL, but I don't want to pass my password on the command line when doing `lein repl :connect http://...` -- is there a way I can store the HTTP authentication in profiles.clj or something?
23:48	gtrak	what would you guys recommend for pairing over the net for 2 emacs users?
23:48	gtrak	I haven't used anything.
23:48	arrdem	floobits, if you can get it working...
23:48	technomancy	gtrak: definitely tmux, as long as you don't need to share a browser
23:49	technomancy	floobits is neat, but it's only really interesting if you want to cross editor boundaries
23:49	gtrak	technomancy: that assumes like a shared server, yea?
23:49	gtrak	I don't have any infra set up.
23:49	technomancy	gtrak: no need, https://syme.herokuapp.com
23:49	technomancy	assuming you have an AWS account and like fifteen cents
23:50	gtrak	aha
23:50	gtrak	that might be perfect.
23:50	gtrak	oh god, floobits uses emacs packages
23:51	gtrak	probably not going to work :-)
23:51	gtrak	I'll do syme.
23:51	technomancy	I could never get the hang of floobits since you don't share the whole screen
23:51	technomancy	so stuff like shells and repl sessions are hard to get right
23:51	gtrak	I need to just be able to give the guy a link.
23:51	technomancy	you can share them as long as only one person types, but it's really annoying
23:55	gtrak	technomancy: how do you setup stuff like emacs on syme?
23:56	technomancy	gtrak: just fork this repo and tweak to your liking https://github.com/technomancy/.symerc
23:57	gtrak	ah good. This is where my 'close to stock' config comes in handy :-).