#clojure – 2014-04-10

2014-04-10

00:36	mehwork	in osx mavericks, i ran "brew install leiningen" but when i run lein it says "No java runtime installed". What's the right way to get it?
00:37	beamso	run java at the command line to install a java runtime
00:37	beamso	if you've got java installed already, look at what you've got your JAVA_HOME variable set to
00:37	beamso	i have mine set to the output of /usr/libexec/java_home
00:40	mehwork	thanks, it says i need to install a jdk
00:40	ddellacosta	is it still recommended to not install leiningen via homebrew?
00:41	ddellacosta	I thought most folks were saying not to
00:41	beamso	not that i've heard
00:41	ddellacosta	hmm
00:41	mehwork	should i get jdk 7 or 8
00:41	beamso	get jdk 8
00:41	beamso	maybe the latest 7 release too
00:42	beamso	what was meant to be the issue with installing leiningen via homebrew?
00:42	technomancy	ddellacosta: I have a low view of homebrew but I don't know of any lein-specific problems, just poor quality control in general.
00:42	gwz	hey, if I have four integers, is there a fast way to add them to a list or something and get the max value
00:43	ddellacosta	technomancy: okay, wasn't sure if there was an "official" perspective on that or not, thanks
00:43	technomancy	early on they didn't really bother reading the packaging instructions and goofed up a few things
00:43	ddellacosta	gwz: I don't know what the performance is like on max but
00:43	ddellacosta	,(max 1 2 3 4)
00:43	clojurebot	4
00:43	technomancy	speaking ex cathedra, if you're going to use a package manager, stick with apt-get or nix =P
00:44	ddellacosta	technomancy: gotcha. :-)
00:44	ddellacosta	technomancy: well, I think the basic install is just fine, and seems like one should let lein handle its updates itself
00:45	ddellacosta	mehwork: ^ something to think about if you are not averse to installing lein outside of homebrew.
00:45	technomancy	ddellacosta: yeah, I don't really see the point in any case other than just the brew command being shorter to type
00:45	technomancy	it's not like they do any security checks or anything
00:46	beamso	homebrew does tell me that it's been updated :/
00:47	kenrestivo	technomancy: ex cathedra? lein is a religion now, like emacs?
00:47	kenrestivo	pope phil?
00:47	technomancy	Pope Philip I
00:48	johnwalker	hyPiRion: how do you create those diagrams on your blog? they're beautiful
01:22	gwz	hey, when I execute my program, I get a lot of these lines, #'user/startRow #'user/startRow #'user/startRow #'user/startRow #'user/startCol #'user/startCol #'user/startCol #'user/startCol
01:22	gwz	is there a reason for that
01:23	beamso	are you printing something during execution?
01:24	gwz	no
01:24	gwz	maybe hm
02:39	magopian	hello, I'm having an issue with "lein try": I'm trying "lein try enlive", but it doesn't seem to load enlive at all
02:39	magopian	here's what I added to my ~/.lein/profiles.clj to activate lein-try: {:user {:plugins [[lein-try "0.4.1"]]}}
02:40	beamso	that file looks okay from here
02:41	magopian	I tried it yesterday, and it was working fine
02:41	magopian	and today, it's not loading anything
02:41	beamso	'loading'?
02:41	magopian	(talking about lein-try)
02:42	magopian	yeah, sorry, i'm just starting with clojure stuff, i don't have the good vocabulary yet ;)
02:42	magopian	here's what I'm trying: https://friendpaste.com/5fbZsNoe6VDwV60dmipGZk
02:43	beamso	try (use 'net.cgrand.enlive-html)
02:43	magopian	ah, much better beamso :)
02:44	magopian	so it was not lein-try not working, it's just my poor skills getting in the way, sorry for the noise :/
02:44	beamso	not a problem.
02:48	magopian	enlive looks awesome, and so different from any templating engine i've used before
03:11	ddellacosta	beamso, magopian: fyi would recommend using require, not use
03:12	beamso	okay. why?
03:13	TEttinger	use pulls everything into the current ns and can cause conflicts
03:13	beamso	okay
03:14	TEttinger	like (use 'clojure.string) will be a problem since it overrides clojure.core/replace
03:14	ddellacosta	beamso: better to do (:require [some.namespace :as sn]) or [some.namespace :refer [var1 var2]]
03:14	TEttinger	not always, you of course can still use "use" if you know the conflicts won't be an issue, it's just not recommended
03:15	magopian	TEttinger: duly noted
03:16	magopian	so i should use require and provide a shortcut name?
03:16	TEttinger	yeah, especially for clojure.string
03:16	ddellacosta	magopian: that's what I usually do, unless I'm using a few specific vars from a namespace. For example, with string sometimes I'll use [clojure.string :refer [blank?]]
03:17	TEttinger	that's good too
03:17	magopian	and here there's yet another way to do it: https://github.com/cgrand/enlive/wiki/Getting-started#html-source
03:17	magopian	(ns x (:use net.cgrand.enlive-html))
03:17	ddellacosta	strings a good example of a namespace that it is bad to use "use" on--you'll replace replace with replace. <-- love that sentence
03:18	magopian	haha
03:18	ddellacosta	magopian: that enlive example is exactly what we are saying not to do.
03:18	TEttinger	I gotta say as an aside -- JVM regexes are really good. I'm always amazed at the things you can do.
03:18	ddellacosta	magopian: that is equivalent to calling (use 'foo), only in a file: (ns x (:use foo))
03:18	TEttinger	s/\pP/!!!/
03:19	ddellacosta	indeed
03:20	magopian	ddellacosta: thanks for the explanation
03:20	magopian	the thing with require however is that you have to prepend all the functions with the namespace
03:20	ddellacosta	magopian: np. FYI, if you haven't read it I recommend this article, goes into depth: http://blog.8thlight.com/colin-jones/2010/12/05/clojure-libs-and-namespaces-require-use-import-and-ns.html
03:21	magopian	I haven't read much on clojure yet, but thanks for the pointer ;)
03:21	ddellacosta	magopian: again, you can also refer to specific names. It's more work, but it's about not clobbering your working namespace--safety. It's a good habit to get into.
03:21	beamso	magopian: i don't think you have to prepend all the functions with the namespace with require
03:21	magopian	(i keep "try to start learning clojure" every few months, and each time i find myself lagging behind what i'd like to learn, and eventually droping it... and coming back at it a few months later ;)
03:22	beamso	i think you can do a (require [library.name :refer :all])
03:22	ddellacosta	magopian: in the repl, playing around, it's fine--but again there are problems with that if you are trying to keep an environment consistent (in which case it's worth reading this: http://thinkrelevance.com/blog/2013/06/04/clojure-workflow-reloaded)
03:23	beamso	i kinda like the prepend because i can remember where the functions come from
03:23	ddellacosta	beamso: you can :refer :all, but that kind of defeats the purpose...
03:23	magopian	i find clojure (and fp in general) so good, and so much "the thing we should all do", but at the same time, it's so difficult on the brain (on mine at least)
03:23	ddellacosta	magopian: it takes some time to get used to, just be patient with yourself and you'll find it easier. :-)
03:23	magopian	thanks for the pointers ddellacosta i'll read that asap
03:24	magopian	ddellacosta: a few years ago I was wondering why only a small number of developers where using FP instead
03:24	magopian	and so many where using imperative
03:24	magopian	imperative/oop
03:24	magopian	but now i know: fp (and simplicity) is hard
03:25	beamso	i think it's more a) what they learned early b) what was easier to hire for
03:25	ddellacosta	magopian: yeah, worthwhile questions to ask. I don't think the answers are so simple...but definitely a big part of it is just that it's easy to get used to something and stick with it.
03:25	ddellacosta	beamso: yeah
03:25	magopian	ddellacosta: it's not only getting used to, i believe
03:25	magopian	i truly find it much more heavy on the brain to think in fp
03:25	magopian	the end result is more concise, better, cleaner
03:26	magopian	and may be more readable (once you get used to it)
03:26	ddellacosta	magopian: well, assuming you are familiar with OO--was that simple to think about when you started? And is it simple to think about when you are trying to wrap your head around encapsulate state changing all over the place?
03:26	magopian	but to get to the end result is really really hard
03:26	ddellacosta	*encapsulated
03:26	magopian	ddellacosta: sadly, the average developer doesn't care about state that much in his daily work
03:27	ddellacosta	magopian: except when they are debugging late at night...
03:27	magopian	it's a pain, it's error prone, but it's not "hard" (not sure i'm using the correct word here, sorry, i'm not an english native)
03:27	magopian	ddellacosta: that's what i'm talking about: the _average_ developer doesn't care about state in his _daily_ work ;)
03:27	ddellacosta	magopian: don't worry about English, lots of non-natives and your English is fine anyways. :-)
03:27	ddellacosta	magopian: ha, fair enough.
03:28	magopian	some will feel the pain when they need to debug it, but it's only from time to time
03:28	sjy	there is a paul graham essay that says something like "OO is popular because it allows you to build enterprise software by accretion"
03:28	ddellacosta	sjy: that kind of makes sense, yeah
03:28	sjy	i personally tried to teach myself programming for years and OO massively held me back
03:28	magopian	as an average developer, you just throw some lines of code together until something more or less works, and then add loads of "if" everywhere to repair it when it breaks
03:28	ddellacosta	sjy: especially the Java model of OO
03:28	sjy	i felt like i was stupid because i didn't understand why everything should be a class
03:28	ddellacosta	sjy: agreed...
03:29	sjy	and it wasn't until i did a first year haskell course and a bunch of python scripting that i really 'got' programming
03:29	magopian	but it's not hard on the brain, you don't have to think about your code very hard and very long
03:29	ddellacosta	sicp (at least, the first chapter, haven't finished it yet) really was what put me over the edge
03:29	magopian	you're not productive, and debugging is a pain, but it's kinda easy in your everyday life
03:29	ddellacosta	I suppose
03:30	ddellacosta	OO is easy up to a point
03:30	sjy	magopian: i don't really agree with that (and i write OO code in my day job)
03:30	magopian	working in FP i really feel like you have to think hard about everything, how to abstract, how to bind things together...
03:30	ddellacosta	but to write it well it's really reaally hard
03:30	ddellacosta	I think Haskell does OO better than OO, honestly
03:30	sjy	i find it incredibly burdensome to navigate through huge enterprisey OO hierarchies
03:30	magopian	sjy: it's burdensome, not hard
03:30	magopian	it's a pain, not hard
03:30	sjy	and i have trouble keeping track of things because any feature requires me to touch a million different files
03:31	magopian	again, it's a pain, not hard :)
03:31	sjy	not sure how much of that is because of shitty design though
03:31	ddellacosta	I think that the point is that keeping that cognitive load is what makes it hard though, magopian
03:31	sjy	there probably exist nightmarishly complex fp projects
03:31	magopian	ddellacosta: that could be a definition of "hard", i agree
03:32	magopian	what I find hard is function composition, passing around, higher order functions and the suc
03:32	magopian	such
03:32	magopian	(and enlive in that case feels hard, at least to me, but again, i'm just a beginner;)
03:32	sjy	true. i'm probably biased because i was exposed to all of that stuff in math courses before i tried to use it to write software
03:33	magopian	enlive looks so much better as a templating engine than the one i'm using daily (django templates)
03:33	magopian	but it's so much more complex to grok
03:34	magopian	when I design a template, I just use the (very) simple DSL, then follow the inheritance path by looking at the template it's "extend"ing, and on and on
03:34	magopian	I even have tools (the django debug toolbar) that gives me the list of templates used on a page, and the context for each of those template
03:36	sjy	django is pretty nice :)
03:36	magopian	it's my day job ;)
03:36	sjy	i got to use it in my old day job. now i work on asp.net web apps :(
03:36	magopian	aouch
03:38	sjy	i'm just checkout out enlive now. have you done much with it yet?
03:38	magopian	nope, nothing at all
03:38	sjy	i'd be interested to know why you say it looks much better as a templating engine
03:39	magopian	just reading and trying / playing around with the "getting started" and the like (have a look at https://github.com/swannodette/enlive-tutorial/)
03:39	magopian	no DSL!
03:39	magopian	(and i'm not even talking about the old PHP way, put code and html in the same file)
03:39	sjy	even though jinja2 is pretty ugly, i think there's something to be said for not straying too far away from html when you're doing web development
03:39	magopian	you take the html files from your designer, and BAM, you use them
03:39	magopian	no fiddling
03:40	magopian	you need a RWD site? Just download the bootstrap example page, and voilà, use it
03:40	ddellacosta	I've used enlive a lot. My main complaint with it is all the macros with tons of confusing arguments. And the simple case of taking in a chunk of html and spitting out a data structure is not simple to do at first.
03:41	ddellacosta	but it's pretty good all of that aside. Unfortunately, it's kind of slow
03:41	magopian	no cutting/splitting your templates, no modifying it... (only in the source code i mean)
03:41	sjy	hmm, the idea of having pure html templates is pretty nice
03:41	magopian	ddellacosta: ah, very good to have that kind of feedback, and being slow is a main drawback sometimes
03:42	ddellacosta	these days everything I'm working on is client-side, and there Om is killer (and there is an enlive-like lib for Om too, called kioo I think)
03:42	magopian	Om is from swannodette right?
03:42	magopian	it looks awesome also
03:42	magopian	using some kind of shadow dom
03:43	magopian	(haven't played with clojurescript yet, but i'd like to)
03:44	magopian	i'm not that fond of client-side :) (or client facing at all, i'm a backend developer)
03:44	sjy	ddellacosta: what kind of work do you use enlive for? do you work for yourself?
03:45	ddellacosta	sjy: no, work for these guys: https://diligenceengine.com Our system is all Clojure/ClojureScript. We have moved from enlive back-end templating to a front-end in Om/Sablono (hiccup-style). But of course we still use basic enlive stuff for the low-level templating
03:46	sjy	cool! do you work remotely?
03:47	sjy	i'd love to work for a company that used cool technology like clojure but there don't seem to be many of them outside the bay area (and i'm in australia))
03:47	beamso	sjy: where are you in australia?
03:47	sjy	perth
03:48	beamso	<-- melbourne
03:49	sjy	cool :) i'm heading over to melbs soon actually
03:49	sjy	have you worked elsewhere in australia?
03:49	beamso	i know that thoughtworks uses clojure and they have offices in both perth and melbourne
03:49	beamso	i've only worked in melbourne
03:49	sjy	cool tech stuff doesn't seem to be as (geographically) concentrated here as it is in the US
03:50	insamniac	the cult of thoughtworks
03:50	beamso	ioof advertised yesterday for a developer and they use clojure
03:50	IceD^`	US situation is total disaster ;)
03:51	sjy	IceD^`: yeah? i got the impression it was a pretty good place to be, employment-wise, for developers
03:51	sjy	not so much for every other industry
03:51	beamso	thoughtworks isn't great?
03:51	insamniac	I just find it funny that they refer to themselves as thoughtworkers.
03:52	IceD^`	my prev job was forcing me to move to valley
03:52	beamso	sjy: melbourne isn't bad but i think sydney is better
03:52	IceD^`	I liked working for them, but to avoid moving to usa/SV - decided to get another one
03:53	sjy	beamso: it seems to be pretty common for australians to think that other australian cities are cooler than theirs :P
03:53	sjy	especially in perth. i like it here but i'd also like to try living in another city for a while to see what it's like
03:54	beamso	it's more that some of the bigger/more software-oriented places are in sydney
03:54	sjy	melbourne and perth seem much nicer than sydney in terms of rent and getting around without a car
03:54	sjy	or with a car for that matter
03:54	beamso	sure, melbourne has rea but sydney has google, atlassian etc.
03:56	sjy	ddellacosta: did you have any interest/experience/qualifications in law before you started working there? :)
03:56	ddellacosta	sjy: nope, just Clojure. :-)
03:56	ddellacosta	sjy: the legal part is interesting though, I've learned a lot (and have a lot more to learn)
03:57	sjy	yeah! i actually studied law, but the industry is kind of horrifying, which is why i'm a developer instead
03:58	sjy	(also because i got rejected from the few non-horrifying jobs i applied for)_
03:59	ddellacosta	sjy: I get the feeling that law is a great field to be in...if you're not a lawyer. :-)
03:59	sjy	what do you mean? it's an even worse field to be in if you're a client :P
03:59	ddellacosta	sjy: or rather, if you aren't competing with other lawyers for gigs at the big law firms
03:59	ddellacosta	sjy: I just mean in terms of being employed in the industry, such as it is
03:59	ddellacosta	sjy: at least in the states, tough for new lawyers
04:00	sjy	ah okay. i used to work in a law firm, the impression i got was that the non-lawyers don't have to work such long hours, but they get paid much less than lawyers and don't get treated with much respect
04:01	sjy	since they're invariably a cost centre
04:01	sjy	but i guess law industry != law firms
04:08	ddellacosta	sjy: yeah, sorry I was just thinking in general about myself, being a non-lawyer in the legal field. But no doubt you're right about other non-lawyers...probably sucks.
04:13	sjy	ddellacosta: and you're only making it harder for fresh graduates to find soul-crushing work locked in a basement for 15 hours doing doc review ;)
04:13	ddellacosta	sjy: true, true...haha
04:50	luxbock	style question: I have three types of records that implement a common protocol and share certain functions together, but then there are certain functions which only make sense for one of the records
04:51	luxbock	in this case, would it be bad style to include those functions that are only used for a certain record type in the protocol as well, so that everything would be grouped together
04:51	luxbock	or should I just make them regular functions
04:52	beamso	thinking in an OO-way, i'd have said bad practice
04:52	luxbock	alright
05:51	magopian	is there a "sample website" or tutorial or something a bit "complete" that I could read/follow to get an understanding of what web development with clojure looks like for real?
05:51	magopian	i've read a few "getting started" small wiki pages, but it's very light
05:54	scottj	magopian: there is a book, "web development with clojure"
05:58	magopian	scottj: ah, good, thanks: http://pragprog.com/book/dswdcloj/web-development-with-clojure ?
05:58	scottj	magopian: yes
05:59	magopian	it looks very recent, that's nice
06:02	magopian	thanks for the pointer scottj ;)
06:02	scottj	magopian: np, I haven't read it but I've heard good things about it, and I like the publisher, and for the recency and ebook price it's hard to beat.
06:03	magopian	sure
06:03	magopian	i have to get past my aversion for java
06:03	vijaykiran	scottj: a bit "old" but should give a bit of overview - http://vijaykiran.com/2012/01/web-application-development-with-clojure-part-1/
06:03	magopian	it keeps getting in the way of me picturing myself in a few years programming clojure instead of python ;)
06:04	vijaykiran	magopian: I wonder how far you can go with Clojure, being happily ignorant of Java
06:04	magopian	well, for starter, you need jetty as soon as you want to display a page
06:05	magopian	and jetty is _heavy_
06:05	magopian	(and just having to wait 10 seconds before lein repl displays anything is kind of a bummer to me being used to have something instantly ;)
06:05	magopian	but i'll get past it, no worries ;)
06:05	vijaykiran	oh - you think Jetty is _heavy_ - which is considered light-as-a-feather compared to coughjbosscough
06:12	magopian	vijaykiran: well, i'm only comparing to what I know of already ;) (like gunicorn)
06:13	clgv	magopian: huh why? you can let jetty run and see the updates as you redefine functions you work on
06:13	magopian	clgv: that's what i'm talking about: i'll get over it
06:14	magopian	it's not that bad, it's just some aversion against a part of my life where I was a java developer and not liking it that much, using eclipse which hate all my ram and kept crashing on me and stuff like that
06:14	magopian	and then discovering python and all its beautiful ecosystem, and living happilly ever after (until i met with clojure, and rich hickey's videos and all the sort, and now willing to go down the rabbit hole ;)
06:15	Anderkent	I don't know if 'hate all my ram' was a typo, but either way it's awesome and I'm stealing it
06:15	clgv	magopian: what I meant is you just start it once for your repl dev session and then work with it
06:16	clgv	magopian: well maybe you should http://downloadmoreram.com/ ;) SCNR :D
06:16	magopian	clgv: yup, i'm talking about the same thing: i'll get over the fact that it's slow and heavy when you launch it, because afterwards you just forget it
06:16	magopian	Anderkent: ah, yeah, it was a typo ;)
06:17	Anderkent	clgv: I'm working on a 2GB windows 7 laptop with full disk encryption doing java development #client-company-policy
06:17	Anderkent	because we love when tabbing to your browser takes 10s+
06:17	Anderkent	#thatswap
06:18	magopian	Anderkent: wow, can't you get a real job? it must be a nightmare working there!
06:18	Anderkent	(I actually end up reading code in vim instead if I don't have to do rebuilds)
06:18	Anderkent	nah, it's just one client, others are better
06:19	clgv	Anderkent: well that sucks. isnt that a good reason to justify hardware upgrades for more productivity?
06:20	Anderkent	corporations, you can't reason with them :) I have a nice shiny macbook pro to do my usual development on, but clients security policy requires we work on their hardware :P
06:21	AmandaC	sounds like a giant can of NOPE
06:21	clgv	Anderkent: woa they must be developing The Next Big Thing™
06:47	hyPiRion	$mail johnwalker I use Graphviz to generate the images, and the code emitting Graphviz markup is "just" a fancy print function. I'll open source it in mid/late June.
06:47	lazybot	Message saved.
07:18	magopian	vijaykiran: i just realised that the link you gave was written by you: thanks! It looks really nice, and it's awesome that it's talking about enlive (i'm playing with it at the moment and would like to use it some more)
07:25	vijaykiran	magopian: :) sorry for shameless-self-promotion
07:40	mercwithamouth	any tips for reading larger functions in lisp?
07:43	scottj	a comfortable chair :)
07:43	mercwithamouth	lol
07:44	vijaykiran	hammock
07:44	llasram	Avoid code with large functions?
07:44	mercwithamouth	inside out?
07:44	magopian	vijaykiran: it's awesome, thanks for having "self promoted" you ;)
07:45	vijaykiran	mercwithamouth: it is inside out - even for smaller functions
07:46	vijaykiran	mercwithamouth: if you can "refactor" while reading - giving names to intermediate "blocks" will help - I guess
07:46	vijaykiran	mercwithamouth: and there's always SO - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1894209/how-to-read-mentally-lisp-clojure-code :)
07:46	mercwithamouth	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1894209/how-to-read-mentally-lisp-clojure-code <-- like his example. functions like that scare me
07:46	vijaykiran	ah :)
07:47	mercwithamouth	lol beat you =)
07:48	vijaykiran	mercwithamouth: in this case let+if looks very imperative
07:49	mercwithamouth	hrmm i suppose there's no other way than to write a lot more lisp
07:50	vijaykiran	mercwithamouth: mentally phasing out the ()s helps
07:50	vijaykiran	mercwithamouth: yes, that's the shortcut :)
07:50	hyPiRion	vijaykiran: The general advice is to write more lisp. But really, concat is a prime example on how to NOT write Clojure code
07:51	hyPiRion	Most of the clojure.core code is hard to comprehend for efficiency reasons
07:52	mercwithamouth	hyPiRion: well thats good to know =P
07:53	hyPiRion	Oh, I ponged wrong person
07:53	hyPiRion	mercwithamouth: Just know that I consider e.g. concat incredibly hard to read, and I don't think I know any Clojure programmer which thinks it is easy to comprehend
07:54	llasram	I think it's just dandy!
07:54	llasram	It does a ton of things backwards from how I'd recommend one write for readability. To be fair some of that is (probably) because the more-readable forms haven't been defined yet
07:54	mercwithamouth	hyPiRion: gotcha...very difficult. i'm looking at the game of life example in programming clojure right now...thats what made me stop and take a break
08:04	magopian	mercwithamouth: what i sometimes find difficult is that people don't explain how they're solving the problem
08:04	magopian	if you're used to solve the game of life with a board and squares and so on, you can't understand a piece of code that only deals with neighbours, and not board at all
08:05	magopian	(i mean, you can understand it... once you understand it's not using a "common" solution)
08:06	mercwithamouth	magopian: ahh..very true. perhaps i should try to solve it in python then come back
08:06	mercwithamouth	the concept is foreign to me all together
08:06	magopian	ah, then it's even more difficult
08:06	magopian	but even in python, you can solve it using different approaches
08:07	magopian	if you could read french, i would point you to a blog post i wrote on the subject (well, sort of ;)
08:07	magopian	the "easy" approach is to just use a board
08:07	magopian	and iterate on the board positions (x and y) and count the number of neighbours for each position
08:08	magopian	another one is to drop the board altogether, and only deal with neighbours (when you initialize the game, you don't initialize cells on a board, you just initialize number of neighbours)
08:09	magopian	(the game of life is all about number of neighbours ;)
08:10	mercwithamouth	hrmm
08:11	mercwithamouth	i'll take a closer look at it over the next day or so
08:22	Anderkent	brew install gimp
08:22	Anderkent	afgaerthyft
08:23	Anderkent	I eagerly await next generation OS'es where the window I'm looking at will automatically get focus
08:25	vijaykiran	Anderkent: perhaps all you need is a small script coupled with opengaze :)
08:25	Anderkent	wait, would that actually work?
08:27	vijaykiran	Anderkent: didn't try - but it could
08:30	vijaykiran	Anderkent: if you are on windows there's "gazemouse" http://www.gazegroup.org/downloads
08:36	Anderkent	hm, so there's opengaze and opengazer, are they the same thing? opengaze's home page seems down and their mailing list is full of spam ;(
08:38	cymen_	Man...
08:38	cymen_	I'm reading this om tutorial: https://github.com/swannodette/om/wiki/Basic-Tutorial
08:38	cymen_	And I gotta say the whole thing with the repl connected to the js app running in the browser ...
08:38	cymen_	mindboggling.
08:38	Anderkent	in a good way, though?
08:39	cymen_	Not sure yet, still looks like a magic trick.
08:39	Anderkent	not any different than running a repl connected to a live clojure app; would that be mind bogglignt oo?
08:39	cymen_	Actually, yes.
08:40	Anderkent	well, it's super useful and I'm very happy we bundled a http repl endpoint with our last webapp, makes debugging prod so much easier :P
08:40	cymen_	All these techniques for evaluating and compiling on the fly and changing the state of an app I find totally weird.
08:41	cymen_	I guess if I understood how it works under the hood a little more I would feel more comfortable. :)
08:41	beamso	i find it kinda awesome
08:41	Anderkent	hym, but why would you want to restart things if you don't have to
08:41	Anderkent	yeah i guess knowing how it works helps; you know when you can safely swap things out and when it's risky
08:41	cymen_	But right now I just keep wondering about things like "what is the application state" "which program is currently in control" "who is processing these events" and stuff like that
08:41	beamso	even silly stuff like developing on ring and not having to reload .wars. madness.
08:41	vijaykiran	Anderkent: try https://github.com/OpenGazer/OpenGazer
08:41	Anderkent	but as long as you're nicely pure you can redefine all you want! :D
08:42	Anderkent	vijaykiran: last commit 3 years ago? Not too promising ;(
08:42	vijaykiran	Anderkent: well - not having commits is not necessarily a bad thing :)
08:43	Anderkent	how so?
08:44	cymen_	Does anybody know why application state contents for om have to be associative data structures and cannot be lists?
08:45	vijaykiran	Anderkent: it might mean it is "super-stable" - well It is interesting enough for me too - so I'll see if I can get the cocoa-gazer thing running
08:46	Anderkent	cymen_: I think you could put a list into the app state, but only at the 'leaf' level - i.e. you know nothing will try to descend into it
08:46	clojurebot	Pardon?
08:47	Anderkent	haven't actually tried it
08:47	cymen_	Anderkent: But why?
08:47	Anderkent	why what?
08:49	hyPiRion	how?
08:49	clojurebot	with style and grace
08:50	CookedGryphon	I'm trying to make css-safe html class names from arbitrary strings. Can anyone point me at an escaping library that will do that, or at least something that will let me map unicode code points over the string?
08:51	CookedGryphon	or ideally, something that will do "ab$%" => "ab_DOLLAR_PERCENT"
08:51	CookedGryphon	or something like that
08:52	cymen_	Why aren't lists allowed for anything that will descend them?
08:52	Anderkent	because you can't index a list
08:53	Anderkent	if you have a component that says 'oh I want [:contents :messages 5 :title]' that only works if everything inside is associative (i.e. a map or a vector)
08:55	adie	CookedGryphon: you could use java interop org.apache.commons.lang3.StringEscapeUtilsc
08:55	adie	CookedGryphon: you could use java interop org.apache.commons.lang3.StringEscapeUtils
08:55	Anderkent	I'm almost positive I was a function that would take a symbol(name?) and return the java-escaped name for it
08:55	Anderkent	but can't find it now -.-
08:55	hyPiRion	Anderkent: munge?
08:56	hyPiRion	It's not designed for escaping stuff though
08:56	hyPiRion	,(munge "hello-world!")
08:56	clojurebot	"hello_world_BANG_"
08:56	hyPiRion	,(munge "abab<?$½\"_")
08:56	clojurebot	"abab_LT__QMARK_$½_DOUBLEQUOTE__"
08:56	Anderkent	CookedGryphon: ^
08:56	Anderkent	oh
08:56	Anderkent	it doesn't do $
08:56	Anderkent	that sucks :P
08:56	llasram	Why would it?
08:57	Anderkent	yeah i guess it's a legal character in a class name
08:57	llasram	`$` is a valid character in JVM class names
08:57	llasram	:-)
08:57	CookedGryphon	and it doesn't do space either
08:57	CookedGryphon	nice try though
08:57	Anderkent	because it would be convenient for this use case!
08:57	llasram	hah
08:57	CookedGryphon	I don't think any of the stringexscape utils do what I want either
08:58	Anderkent	CookedGryphon: write it as a lib. It's not that hard I think: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2812072/allowed-characters-for-css-identifiers
08:58	CookedGryphon	it's a pity you can't look up the unique names of unicode code points
08:59	Anderkent	other than googling 'unicode 0x1443' you mean?
08:59	Anderkent	oh, programmatically. right.
08:59	CookedGryphon	:P
08:59	CookedGryphon	right
08:59	Anderkent	well, build a big map!
08:59	Anderkent	:P
08:59	llasram	You can...
09:00	llasram	Or was that sarcasm?
09:00	Anderkent	and then 'class="c_c__UNIFIED_CANADIAN_ABORIGINAL_SYLLABICS_"
09:00	llasram	Damn thing is on the fritz again
09:00	Anderkent	llasram: how?
09:01	Anderkent	ha
09:01	Anderkent	codepoint.getName()
09:01	Anderkent	that was easy
09:03	CookedGryphon	oh yeah
09:03	Anderkent	,(Character/getName 0x1443)
09:03	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method: getName, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
09:03	Anderkent	bah
09:03	llasram	Huh. Are both lazybot and clojurebot running Java 6 still?
09:03	Anderkent	seems so
09:03	CookedGryphon	except... it contains spaces and punctuation :P
09:03	CookedGryphon	so now I have to escape what that returns
09:03	Anderkent	CookedGryphon: just run .getName on all of those!
09:03	Anderkent	it's .getName all the way down
09:04	CookedGryphon	yeah, I'll just go write a function which iterates until it's a valid css name
09:04	CookedGryphon	great idea!
09:04	llasram	hah
09:04	minikomi	UNDERSCORE_UNDERSCORE_UNDERSCORE...
09:05	hyPiRion	heh.
09:05	hyPiRion	,(munge "!!!")
09:05	clojurebot	"_BANG__BANG__BANG_"
09:06	hyPiRion	might as well make gensym generator and redefine all the css names
09:07	CookedGryphon	I'm tempted to just map them all to a generated symbol....
09:09	minikomi	,(munge ”_BANG__BANG__BANG_”)
09:09	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: ”_BANG__BANG__BANG_” in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
09:09	Anderkent	those fancy double quotes. Oh, mac auto-format you.
09:10	beamso	what mac app does the auto format?
09:10	minikomi	#2swag4repl
09:10	Anderkent	not sure about irc, but outlook keeps doing it to me
09:10	tbaldridge	well there's your problem :-P
09:10	Anderkent	or used to until I managed to find the option
09:10	minikomi	I’m using colloquy
09:10	tbaldridge	actually, come to think of it, only MS apps have ever done that to me.
09:11	Anderkent	fair enough, i actually haven't used many MS apps :P
09:11	minikomi	.. the quotes in this font are actually exactly the same. weird.
09:11	hyPiRion	tbaldridge: emacs changes " to `` and '' in latex-mode :p
09:27	BobSchack	schack683g10&Cat!
09:31	ssideris	is that a password?
09:32	BobSchack	yeah my irc client stole my focus oh well
09:32	hyPiRion	it _was_ a password, I guess
09:34	welder	how often has your password been schackattack?
09:36	BobSchack	A while, just for one account, and it's already changed :)
10:11	CookedGryphon	Anderkent, llasram, getName has turned into a very nice solution, thanks for your suggestions
10:14	Anderkent	really? I'm curious to see that
10:14	Anderkent	also your lib is now java 7 only
10:14	Anderkent	also, you released is as a lib, right?
10:26	cymen_	What does the error "Unsupported binding form" mean?
10:27	Anderkent	cymen_: context?
10:28	cymen_	uh still trying that om tutorial.. clojure.lang.ExceptionInfo: Unsupported binding form: (dom/li nil (display-name contact)) at line 26 ...
10:28	Anderkent	usually it means you forgot to add in a binding form (like {name :key} or [args])
10:29	Anderkent	post more code, it's probably the token before the (dom/li)
10:29	cymen_	Yeah, I had an extra set of parens around the type in a reify
10:29	cymen_	(reify (om/IRender ...
10:30	cbp	cymen_: maybe you need a map instead of nil
10:30	cymen_	It is really too hard to figure out such simple errors. :/
10:30	cbp	or just dont add nill?
10:30	Anderkent	oh. not sure why extra parens would cause that, probably something about how it expands
10:30	cbp	if it's not that then it's probably due to that function display-name
10:30	Anderkent	cbp: are you just guessing? li is not a binding form
10:31	cbp	I am =D
10:31	cbp	Oh sorry I misread the error
10:31	cbp	Need a paste!
10:32	Anderkent	he already fixed it (cymen_> Yeah, I had an extra set of parens around the type in a reify)
10:32	cbp	I realy need some cofee.. sorry
10:33	nbeloglazov	Is it right that code compiled with clojure 1.6 won't run in clojure 1.5.1? Or I'm doing something wrong?
10:33	Anderkent	nbeloglazov: uh, depends on what you mean by 'compiled'. Code written for clojure 1.6 might work with 1.5.1 if it doesnt use any new functions. Code AOT-ed against clojure 1.6... I don't actually know, it might be the same
10:34	Anderkent	might just not work if the internals changed, I guess
10:34	nbeloglazov	Compiled - AOT-ed against 1.6.
10:34	Anderkent	but in general AOT is only supposed to work with exactly the same classes, I think
10:36	nbeloglazov	Hm, is there general best practice of how to develop library that uses AOT and should work with different clojure versions?
10:36	Anderkent	I think the usual thing to do if you need java classes but want to target multiple clojure versions is to write a small java wrapper
10:36	Anderkent	that's assuming you want AOT for a java api
10:37	Frozenlock	Any recommendation for bin-packing / stock-cutting in clojure? (or java). I found optaPlanner, but was wondering if there's anything else.
10:37	Anderkent	nbeloglazov: see for example https://github.com/sritchie/carbonite/blob/master/src/jvm/carbonite/JavaBridge.java
10:38	stuartsierra	In general, AOT-compiled Clojure is not compatible across Clojure versions. However since about 1.4 the changes have been small.
10:41	TEttinger	Frozenlock, I haven't tried it but https://github.com/reborg/binpack is in clojure
10:41	cymen_	What's AOT?
10:41	TEttinger	ahead of time (compilation)
10:41	CookedGryphon	Ahead Of Time (compilation)
10:41	CookedGryphon	jinx
10:41	TEttinger	indeed
10:43	Frozenlock	TEttinger: thanks. This one is only 1D?
10:46	TEttinger	Frozenlock, I'm not any more familiar with the bin packing problem than wikipedia tells me
10:46	Frozenlock	I'm not much more knowledgeable myself. Thanks ;-)
11:54	cymen_	Can somebody explain this error to me: https://www.refheap.com/35acca127e6740acc7fa33844
11:55	justin_smith	something unbound was in call position somewhere
11:55	justin_smith	so a symbol not pointing to any value was expected to be a function
11:55	cymen_	This is the offending code part: https://www.refheap.com/c5086387303e9ffa3fc319169
11:55	justin_smith	(recor)
11:55	justin_smith	that is your error
11:55	Anderkent	so it is
11:56	Anderkent	good eye!
11:56	justin_smith	as you may expect, recor is unbound :)
11:56	Anderkent	also wow talk about shitty error messages :P
11:56	cymen_	sigh
11:56	cymen_	teaching a man to fish and everything...is there any way to debug this?
11:56	gfredericks	jvm-clojure is much better in that regard
11:56	gfredericks	,(recor 1 2 3)
11:56	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: recor in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
11:57	justin_smith	cymen_: programming is hard for us dyslexics, I do phonetic and letter transposition errors all the fucking time
11:57	gfredericks	I'm not sure what about cljs makes that difficult to detect
11:57	Anderkent	,(do (def recor) (recor 1 2 3))
11:57	clojurebot	#<IllegalStateException java.lang.IllegalStateException: Attempting to call unbound fn: #'sandbox/recor>
11:57	jonasen	Anderkent: you would probably have seen which symbol was undefined in the dev tools using source maps
11:57	gtrak	justin_smith: oh man, props :-). I had a dyslexic roommate. He was very hard-working.
11:57	justin_smith	cymen_: well, I saw "cannot call method 'call' of undefined", then that was my clue to look for symbols that are likely typos of something bound
11:57	cymen_	jonasen: mind elaborating on that?
11:58	Anderkent	justin_smith: yeah it's a huge pain if you mistype say keyword names
11:58	justin_smith	right, because that doesn't even throw any sensible error
11:58	Anderkent	it can cause a bug 20 lines away because nil came up instead of what you wanted
11:58	justin_smith	you just get a nil on lookup
11:58	justin_smith	right
11:58	cymen_	indeed, I once completely messed up the map in my project.clj and got no error whatsoever just weird results
11:59	jonasen	cymen_: (using chrome) right click -> inspect element -> click on the error -> read the cljs source which generated the error. If you have source maps set up
11:59	cymen_	I didn't do anything to set them up but I do get line numbers with the errors.
12:00	cymen_	Is that what you mean?
12:00	justin_smith	chrome will actually show you the cljs source
12:00	justin_smith	at the appropriate line
12:00	jonasen	cymen_: do you see cljs or js?
12:00	Anderkent	cymen_: you should see your cljs code in the scripts tab
12:00	Anderkent	man, so many people saying the same thing
12:00	justin_smith	heh
12:01	justin_smith	it's the chorus of programming wisdom
12:01	jonasen	Anderkent: we're eager to help. That's a good thing I guess :)
12:01	cymen_	I do see my code in the Sources tab, yes.
12:01	whodidthis	what about when you println something and it shows the println fn from cljs.core, any way to fix that
12:01	cymen_	The error is three lines away from the recor, though. :)
12:03	Anderkent	wait, if I (defn foo! ...) and (defn foo_BANG_ ...) and then AOT
12:03	seangrove	bbloom: Probably up your alley http://acko.net/blog/shadow-dom/
12:03	seangrove	Particularly the conclusion
12:03	seangrove	"View and render trees are supposed to be simple and transparent data structures, the model for and result of layout. This is why absolute positioning is a performance win for mobile: it avoids creating invisible dynamic constraints between things that rarely change. Styles are orthogonal to that, they merely define the shape, not where it goes."
12:03	justin_smith	Anderkent: foo_BANG_ should be illegal as a first arg to def
12:03	gfredericks	,(fn foo_BANG_ [])
12:03	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval72$foo_BANG___73 sandbox$eval72$foo_BANG___73@1c06877>
12:04	gfredericks	,(def foo_BANG_ "illegal?")
12:04	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foo_BANG_
12:04	Anderkent	'should'
12:04	justin_smith	yeah, I didn't mean that it is...
12:04	seangrove	I'm not 100% on board with that, but it's similar the my thinking at this point
12:04	Anderkent	https://www.refheap.com/74590 funz
12:05	yotsov	Is it possible to write a cljs app, which, once compiled to js/html, can receive a text input and execute it as cljs code? It sounds to me like at present it is impossible due to how the cljs compiler works...
12:05	bbloom	seangrove: the shadow dom ppl have their hearts in the right place
12:05	seangrove	yotsov: No, it's not possible currently
12:05	bbloom	seangrove: but the solution is not MORE crap in browsers, it's less
12:05	yotsov	seangrove: thanks
12:05	bbloom	seangrove: ask dnolen_ to rant about the shadow dom sometime
12:05	bbloom	he said to me "now that i understand it, it's clear that they are insane"
12:06	justin_smith	yotsov: it can be done if you send it to the backend for translation (see cljsfiddle http://cljsfiddle.net/fiddle/jonase.async but yeah cljs is not self hosting
12:06	yotsov	justin_smith: I see, thanks
12:06	seangrove	bbloom: Yeah, I've heard a few rants on it at this point
12:07	cymen_	isn't shadow dom the idea behind react and dnolen the guy who ported it to cljs? :)
12:07	bbloom	cymen_: absolutely not
12:07	bbloom	the shadow dom is exceptionally complex
12:07	justin_smith	cymen_: different implementation of the same vague concept I think
12:07	justin_smith	react does it much better
12:07	dnolen_	justin_smith: pretty much unrelated
12:07	justin_smith	oh, ok
12:07	seangrove	cymen_: I'd like to quote you on that ;)
12:07	dnolen_	Shadow DOM is the incidental complexity of trying to embed widgets into a Document Object Model
12:08	cymen_	don't quote me when I talk shit
12:08	cymen_	so...almost never
12:08	dnolen_	React treats the DOM as it should be, an implementation detail
12:08	cymen_	dnolen_: I'm not sure what your abstract or concrete concepts of widgets or DOMs are and cannot understand that sentence :)
12:09	bbloom	at this point, i'm only interested in W3C projects that further enable ignoring the W3C
12:09	justin_smith	dnolen_: I guess my perception of similarity was both being data structures with a special relationship to the DOM, but that's a thin thread I guess
12:09	dnolen_	cymen_: widgets are traditional object oriented widgets - DOM has nothing to do with that at all
12:09	seangrove	bbloom: Fantastic
12:10	cymen_	dnolen_: So a widget is something like a textbox and a DOM is an XMLish representation of a document?
12:10	bbloom	ie webgl. a very safe and uninteresting design which carries forward many of the out dated designs of GL... but whatever, it means i can render games in the damn browser finally
12:10	bbloom	next, i want a damn bytecode VM :-P
12:11	gfredericks	"DBV is a damn bytecode vm written in JavaScript"
12:11	cymen_	bbloom: There are Java Applets, there is Flash..what more could you want? :)
12:11	dnolen_	cymen_: widgets are the various kinds of identifiable reusable user interface objects that can implemented on top of whatever view/event abstraction you have available
12:12	dnolen_	cymen_: DOM is a specific view/event abstraction around web browsers
12:12	dnolen_	Shadow DOM tries to live inside that abstraction ... badly
12:15	cymen_	What is the intention of Shadow DOM?
12:15	cymen_	I mean the DOM already has UI widgets, right?
12:15	gtrak	dnolen_: do you think react or a similar approach might get browser buy-in in the future? :-). I hope we could get rid of DOM (since I don't want to learn it in the first place).
12:15	bbloom	cymen_: to undo the damage done by the poor (ie no) isolation model provided by dom elements
12:15	dnolen_	gtrak: nope
12:15	dnolen_	gtrak: would break the web
12:16	seangrove	dnolen_: Well, they could just expose lower-level render primitives, etc. and that'd be enough for React to breath a lot more freely
12:16	bbloom	seangrove: the tricky bit is the etc
12:16	bbloom	seangrove: why hasn't canvas taken off for UIs? b/c that etc is hard.
12:16	bbloom	:-)
12:16	seangrove	bbloom: Nah, was less than 4 characters
12:16	cymen_	bbloom: Isolation of what from what?
12:17	bbloom	each other
12:17	bbloom	styles
12:17	bbloom	behavior
12:17	bbloom	security
12:17	gtrak	bbloom: yea.. but we can pick and choose now, potentially.
12:17	gtrak	instead of flatly abandoning everything like canvas
12:18	gtrak	or flash
12:18	seangrove	bbloom: True, it's tricky. We'll see what happens. Google closure is clearly in the "fuck it, we'll build everything ourselves" camp. http://closure-library.googlecode.com/git-history/0148f7ecaa1be5b645fabe7338b9579ed2f951c8/closure/goog/demos/index.html
12:18	bbloom	seangrove: and then they proceed to implement a bunch of stupid OOP crap
12:18	bbloom	hurray
12:18	seangrove	bbloom: Yeah, that was going to be my next lament
12:19	seangrove	But it's google, whaddya expect? They have a culture, it fits in.
12:19	justin_smith	"let's replace js with python guys"
12:20	bbloom	heh, but that's the shit ppl really think
12:20	justin_smith	yeah, it's sad
12:20	bbloom	"javascript is the problem, let's put ruby in there!"
12:20	bbloom	um, no... javascript is A problem
12:20	bbloom	THE problem are stupid suggestions like that one
12:20	bbloom	and the standards body that has their own stupid suggestions
12:21	gtrak	bbloom: this is why I love clojure.
12:21	rasmusto	if only I would have learned python as my first language...
12:21	gtrak	we'll just do the thing you're trying to do better.
12:21	seangrove	It's a psychotic world that's grown to hold (one of) the most important app delivery platforms and is heavily entrenched
12:21	gtrak	you can still do whatever you want.
12:21	justin_smith	rasmusto: are you saying you have a masochistic streak?
12:23	rasmusto	justin_smith: dunno. I was taught matlab first, then moved straight to enterprise java (tm). Didn't really start programming until I did embedded C for robotics
12:23	justin_smith	gtrak: if you mean clojure is powerful enough to make something sane that targets whatever nonsense they come up with next, yeah
12:23	gtrak	rasmusto: i think it's a fine first language, unless you know ahead of time you'll want something better.
12:23	gtrak	then scheme it up
12:24	justin_smith	(inc scheme)
12:24	lazybot	⇒ 1
12:24	justin_smith	best first language evar
12:24	gtrak	justin_smith: yep :-), sometimes doing bad things better makes you win.
12:24	rasmusto	I taught myself clojure by doing scheme homework in it
12:24	rasmusto	those problems seemed much more meaningful than the java junk I got
12:25	gtrak	there's definitely something to be said for having any gratification at all when you're a newb.
12:25	gtrak	and python/js/ruby can give you that better, if it's what you need.
12:25	ambrosebs	what's the best way to get in touch with the instaparse devs?
12:26	justin_smith	rasmusto: I look at it in terms of information theory - what ratio of the code on the page provides information about the problem and its domain
12:26	ddellacosta	ambrosebs: I think email
12:26	justin_smith	rasmusto: I think that by that metric java performs pretty poorly, but scheme and of course clojure do very well
12:26	ambrosebs	ddellacosta: seems like it
12:26	gtrak	justin_smith: I want my code to be incompressible.
12:27	justin_smith	hah
12:27	gtrak	thus truly random.
12:27	ddellacosta	ambrosebs: as far as Mark
12:27	rasmusto	justin_smith: I like that. But now I have to go check the SnR of my clojure code :o
12:27	gtrak	justin_smith: but I'm serious :-)
12:28	justin_smith	gtrak: cat /dev/urandom > wtf.o; ld wtf.o wtf
12:28	gtrak	million monkeys
12:28	Frozenlock	ugh.... my repl offers me some autocomplete fields, such as org.somelibrary.someclass/somefield. But when I press enter, I get this: CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to find static field: somefield in class org.somelibrary.someclass o_O
12:28	gtrak	is the unit of measure
12:29	justin_smith	rasmusto: it's kind of a rule of thumb to me. Also it helps me find a balance between terseness and inscrutability - a certain amount of redundancy, if it helps gaurantee communication from author to reader, is desirable
12:29	justin_smith	just not so much that the redundance starts masking the task at hand, of course
12:30	rasmusto	justin_smith: oh, so the measure of code readability isn't whether or not a function uses a thread-last macro? (jokes)
12:30	justin_smith	heh
12:30	justin_smith	with some A/B testing we could probably start to quantify said ratios, but just thinking of the concept helps
12:41	Frozenlo`	How can I call CloudBalancingHelloWorld from the repl? https://docs.jboss.org/drools/release/6.0.1.Final/optaplanner-docs/html/quickStart.html#cloudBalancingTutorial (section 2.1.4)
12:42	Frozenlo`	Doing (.main org.optaplanner.examples.cloudbalancing.app.CloudBalancingHelloWorld) just gives me a 'no matching field' error.
12:42	Anderkent	Frozenlo`: main is presumably a static method, so it will be (org.optaplanner.examples.cloudbalancing.app.CloudBalancingHelloWorld/main)
12:43	Anderkent	(otherwise you're calling the .main method on the Class instance for o.o.e.c.a.CBHW
12:43	Frozenlo`	Anderkent: That was the first thing I tried... CompilerException java.lang.NoSuchFieldException: main, compiling:(/tmp/form-init5170518960142646801.clj:1:9)
12:44	hiredman	static main methods tend to take arrays of strings
12:45	Anderkent	hiredman: wouldn't that be a reflection error though?
12:50	Frozenlo`	Anderkent: hiredman: (org.optaplanner.examples.cloudbalancing.app.CloudBalancingHelloWorld/main (into-array [""])) Seems to give me a different error. Step in the right direction :-)
12:55	seangrove	Damnit, emacs macros always give me trouble
12:55	seangrove	err, emacs' regexp
12:56	rasmusto	%s/emacs/vim :>
12:56	Frozenlo`	What? ////// you ////dont like ////emasc /////regexp? :-p
12:57	rasmusto	can't you just shell out to perl and call it good? :p
12:58	Frozenlock	seangrove: Just in case you don't know, there's M-x re-builder.
12:58	seangrove	Frozenlock: Ah, forgot about that, thanks
12:59	seangrove	Turned out not to be emacs' fault, something about find-grep-dired, so presumably something I was passingly incorrectly to grep
13:03	abaker	gtrak: you should join the party in the stardog-clj repo ;)
13:03	gtrak	heh, sure :-)
13:03	gtrak	haven't played with stardog yet. revelytix hasn't done rdf in a while :-)
13:04	abaker	yeah, my condolences on that one
13:04	abaker	next little side project when not doing NASA work is stardog.cljs, taking the existing stardog.js and building the apis around that
13:04	gtrak	you should totally talk to paul if you haven't already
13:05	abaker	oh we are, he and I collaborated on stardog-clj
13:05	gtrak	he wants to reimplement some mulgara algos in cljs
13:06	abaker	nice, I'll have to ping him on the cljs topics
13:06	gtrak	abaker: also, if you haven't noticed. I'm extremely excited about the CLJS future :-).
13:07	abaker	we're just wrapping up the core capabilities on stardog-clj, letting you easily deal with RDF without having to do things like, deal with Sesame APIs at all
13:07	abaker	gtrak: i did notice!
13:08	abaker	gtrak: we've been doing a ton of, get data into Stardog, exploit it with some reasoning and SPARQL, and then render viz in JS, I'd really like to start doing that in CLJS
13:10	rasmusto	will (into {} (map foo someseq)) realize all of that seq? (I assume yes)
13:14	Bronsa	rasmusto: yes
13:14	rasmusto	Bronsa: thank you
13:15	TimMc	rasmusto: clojure.core/into eagerly consumes whatever collection you hand it.
13:16	rasmusto	TimMc: is this because reduce is eager?
13:18	Natalia1	holaa
13:19	Natalia1	HALOOOOO
13:19	Natalia1	:P
13:20	TimMc	rasmusto: I suppose so, yes.
13:20	Natalia1	jajajaja
13:20	Natalia1	no se pasen
13:20	Natalia1	jajaja
13:21	rasmusto	~guards
13:21	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
13:21	Natalia1	:P
13:21	rasmusto	Natalia1: hello
13:21	bbloom	rasmusto: dammit. don't engage
13:21	Natalia1	Holaa !!
13:21	Natalia1	rasmusto
13:21	Natalia1	:)
13:22	rasmusto	bbloom: I'm an optimist I guess
13:22	Natalia1	queee habla español
13:22	Natalia1	??
13:22	lazybot	Natalia1: Definitely not.
13:22	clojurebot	? is !
13:23	bbloom	~!
13:23	clojurebot	BOT FIGHT!!!!!111
13:23	bbloom	heh
13:26	magopian	wow, did you guys see https://github.com/cgrand/enliven?
13:26	magopian	the successor to enlive?
13:27	magopian	i don't remember who i was talking with this morning saying that enlive was kinda slow, it seems this one solves the problem
13:28	Natalia1	jmk
13:28	Natalia1	HOLAAAAA
13:29	Natalia1	ESTOY ABURRIDA HAY ALGUIEN AQUII
13:29	bbloom	technomancy: you around? ^^^
13:29	clgv	,(def foo.bar 42)
13:29	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foo.bar
13:29	clgv	,foo.bar
13:29	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: foo.bar, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
13:29	technomancy	Natalia1: no habla
13:30	rasmusto	,#'foo.bar
13:30	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foo.bar
13:30	Natalia2	HM
13:30	Natalia2	K
13:30	Natalia2	HELLO oubiwann
13:31	oubiwann	technomancy: thanks ;-)
13:31	clgv	just wanted to test if that dot is a problem
13:31	@technomancy	hopefully a ban won't be necessary
13:31	bbloom	haha bot 1 quit and suddently bot 2 showed up
13:32	bbloom	technomancy: thanks
13:32	rasmusto	(inc @technomancy)
13:32	lazybot	⇒ 1
13:32	bbloom	$karma technomancy
13:32	lazybot	technomancy has karma 105.
13:33	bbloom	$karma @technomancy
13:33	lazybot	@technomancy has karma 1.
13:33	bbloom	technomancy: sheesh, you're fucking karma rich my friend
13:33	cbp	$karma bbloom
13:33	lazybot	bbloom has karma 30.
13:33	bbloom	i'm but a humble karma begger
13:33	Natalia1	kgholaa
13:33	Natalia1	pueden hablar español
13:34	Natalia1	plisss
13:34	bbloom	technomancy: give it another go? :-/
13:37	bbloom	tbaldridge: i started to think about compiling in eclj, but i need to do an automated cps/trampoline transform first
13:38	bbloom	tbaldridge: and that will perform crazy slowly, so i've got to figure out how to do a "selective" transform ah la scala's delimc support
13:38	bbloom	they use types, i intend to try to use abstract interpretation
13:38	bbloom	wish me luck :-)
13:40	Natalia1	please speak spanish :'(
13:40	Natalia1	pleaseeee
13:41	fbernier	hola?
13:41	brunov	Yo ablo español
13:41	brunov	hablo
13:41	brunov	perdón
13:41	Natalia1	hay gracias
13:41	Natalia1	alfin
13:41	Natalia1	AL FIN
13:41	Natalia1	CONSIGO A ALGUIEN QUE HABLE ESPAÑOL
13:42	Natalia1	BRUNOV:-[
13:42	Natalia1	hola
13:43	shoepie_	i'm looking for help changing the keys of a map
13:43	clgv	shoepie_: that probably involves reduce-kv ;)
13:44	shoepie_	clgv: ooo, that sounds promising. thanks, i didnt want a full solution, just where to start. i couldnt find a function that seemed right
13:44	Natalia1	PLEASEE SPEAK SPANISH
13:45	@technomancy	Natalia1: this is an english channel
13:45	clgv	Natalia1: please stop your nonsense
13:45	@technomancy	if you continue with your harassment I'll ban you
13:45	clgv	shoepie_: but maybe you should state your problem completely
13:45	cbp	shoepie_: reduce-kv or (zipmap (map f (keys m)) (vals m))
13:46	bbloom	technomancy: you're totally the good cop. i'd just go around handing out bans like candy
13:46	bbloom	technomancy: hell, i might even ban myself
13:46	@technomancy	bbloom: would rather avoid a /msg firestorm
13:47	bbloom	technomancy: surely a /ban + /ignore macro would do the trick
13:47	tbaldridge	"Oh we're doing good cop, bad cop? I thought we were doing bad cop, bad cop"
13:47	@technomancy	bbloom: I need to get better with host masks, last time someone kept nick-hopping
13:47	gfredericks	does lein uberjar have a mechanism for excluding files from particular deps?
13:48	gfredericks	or some sort of conflict resolution?
13:48	Natalia1	pleaseeeEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
13:48	brunov	technomancy: kick her. I offered help in Spanish in private and she doesn't have any questions
13:49	brunov	she's just trolling
13:49	clgv	:(
13:49	Raynes	Gotta love when your channel gets to 800 people.
13:49	Frozenlock	trolling on #clojure? That's a thing?
13:49	rasmusto	$google translate jurar
13:49	lazybot	[Jurar en inglés \| Traductor español a inglés \| English to Spanish ...] http://www.spanishdict.com/translate/jurar
13:49	Raynes	Yes.
13:49	Natalia1	SPEAKTALK
13:49	Raynes	No language is immune to popularity.
13:50	Raynes	And popularity invariably brings degenerates. :\
13:50	gfredericks	I see :uberjar-merge-with
13:50	@technomancy	brunov: thanks for the info
13:50	clgv	Raynes: 800 is popular already? ;) :D
13:50	Raynes	For an IRC channel? sure.
13:50	clgv	ah well that might be true^^
13:51	brunov	technomancy: no problem
13:51	rasmusto	wait, I thought everyone had a vps persisting irssi...
13:55	rasmusto	question about maps/nesting: how should I split up a single map into different sections? {:a/a 1 :a/b 2 :b/a 3 :b/b 4} or {:a {:a 1 :b 2} :b {:a 3 :b 4}}, I assume the latter, but can anyone make a case for less nesting?
13:56	clgv	rasmusto: two-level hierarchy of maps seems ok to me
13:56	rasmusto	I haven't used namespaced keywords all that much, so this might not fit their use-case
13:56	shoepie_	clgv: thanks, reduce-kv was exactly what i needed
13:56	justin_smith	rasmusto: case against less nesting: it turns what could be composition of selectors into composition of keyword name parts. The former is better because simpler.
13:56	rasmusto	clgv: at most it would be 3-4 levels of hierarch
13:57	clgv	rasmusto: I think namespaced keywords are intended for so to say "private attributes" in a map
13:57	clgv	shoepie_: great :D
13:58	rasmusto	okay, I think nesting makes sense then. I should only be dealing with vals from one two of these sub-maps at a time, and I'd rather not do a filter on those namespaced keywords, thanks all
14:01	gfredericks	does anybody know anything about a META-INF/services/java/sql/Driver.class file or similar?
14:01	gfredericks	this seems to be something that comes with jdbc driver jars? but if you have multiple drivers and use an uberjar then one clobbers the other?
14:03	gozala	tbaldridge: got a few moments ? I would like to ask something about core.async
14:03	tbaldridge	gozala: sure
14:03	gfredericks	is this a problem with uberjars in general?
14:04	gfredericks	and despite all of leiningen's uberjar-entry-customization options it doesn't seem possible to specify which dep to get a file from
14:04	technomancy	gfredericks: iirc uberjar stuff is on a first-wins basis
14:04	technomancy	so move it to the top of :dependencies maybe?
14:04	gfredericks	technomancy: oh interesting
14:06	gfredericks	technomancy: half-haxy but it works I guess
14:13	rasmusto	,(reduce (fn [m kvs] (assoc-in m (butlast kvs) (last kvs))) {} [[:a :b :c 1] [:b :e :f 3]]) ; nest some vecs
14:13	clojurebot	{:b {:e {:f 3}}, :a {:b {:c 1}}}
14:38	bbloom	tbaldridge: holy brainsplosion batman! i don't need to manually implement a CPS transform. I can simply port the interpreter from thunking CPS to direct style & then hook the eval function to inspect it's continuation & poof, i can derive the cps transform from the metacircular interpreter
14:38	bbloom	fucking computer science man.
14:38	bbloom	time to add .eclj to my vim file extensions ;-)
14:42	bbloom	rasmusto: i'm attempting some pretty crazy shit :-)
14:45	rasmusto	bbloom: you had me at "vim file extensions"
14:45	bbloom	hehe .eclj just sets vim in to clojure mode so that i can separate files that use my language extensions vs those that don't
14:46	rasmusto	gotcha. Are you just converting raw clojure to CPS?
14:46	bbloom	rasmusto: i have a variant of clojure that supports delimited continuations
14:46	bbloom	the goal is to be able to selectively transform to CPS in a way that only uses trampolining if necessary
14:47	bbloom	most code should compile to direct style wherever possible
14:47	brunov	gfredericks: to avoid that clobbering in a pure-Java project I had to use the mvn-shade plugin
14:47	rasmusto	hm. do you have an example of a function that would benefit from a CPS transform?
14:47	rasmusto	I know of CPS by name/basic premise only
14:48	brunov	gfredericks: https://maven.apache.org/plugins/maven-shade-plugin/examples/resource-transformers.html, in resource transformers, the ServicesResourceTransformer will merge all META-INF/services/* files in a single dir in the resulting uberjar
14:48	bbloom	rasmusto: CPS has two meanings really. 1 is you pass the continuation like a callback argument, the other is that you do something like:
14:48	bbloom	(doc trampoline)
14:48	clojurebot	"([f] [f & args]); trampoline can be used to convert algorithms requiring mutual recursion without stack consumption. Calls f with supplied args, if any. If f returns a fn, calls that fn with no arguments, and continues to repeat, until the return value is not a fn, then returns that non-fn value. Note that if you want to return a fn as a final value, you must wrap it in some data structure and unpack it after trampoline returns."
14:48	bbloom	rasmusto: the most commonly cited reasons for CPS would be to get tail call optimization, which many consider a goal in itself
14:49	bbloom	i think that's a nice-to-have in 99% of programs
14:49	rasmusto	right, I think I knew about the tco motivation
14:49	bbloom	but i want to do this: http://lampwww.epfl.ch/~rompf/pldi2014.pdf
14:49	bbloom	and this: http://math.andrej.com/eff/
14:50	rasmusto	bbloom: so your brainsplosion was: you don't have to work forwards, you just have to work backwards and see what happened?
14:50	stuartsierra	bbloom: JIT macros?
14:50	rasmusto	(batman)
14:50	bbloom	stuartsierra: it's pretty awesome.
14:51	bbloom	rasmusto: the brainsplosion was that a CPS transform can be automatically derived from an interpreter with reified delimited continuations
14:51	gtrak	going on the reading list :-)
14:51	bbloom	rasmusto: at least, i think it can. i have no evidence of this, but i'm like 90% certain
14:51	gfredericks	brunov: oh interesting; I'm curious how adaptable this is to leiningen
14:51	bbloom	stuartsierra: the idea is that you can hook a function & inject code in to the compiler
14:51	rasmusto	bbloom: interesting. Thanks for the reading material :)
14:51	bbloom	stuartsierra: in a sensible, composable way
14:52	brunov	gfredericks: me too, I haven't had the (mis)fortune of having to use it in a clojure project. In that Java project we used maven so it was just a matter of sacrificing a goat and producing the right XML incantations.
14:53	gfredericks	brunov: do you know if these sorts of files are normally naively-concattable?
14:53	bbloom	stuartsierra: rasmusto: I want to have my expressivity cake and eat the performance too :-)
14:58	brunov	gfredericks: Yes. The file name is the interface to implement, and the content is a newline-separated list of the names of the concrete implementations
14:58	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
14:58	gfredericks	clojurebot: Yes. The file name?
14:58	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
14:58	gfredericks	clojurebot: gfredericks: Yes. The file name?
14:58	clojurebot	gfredericks: Yes. The file name is the interface to implement, and the content is a newline-separated list of the names of the concrete implementations
14:58	seangrove	Wow, there's a W3C WebApps F2F meeting https://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/April2014Meeting
14:58	gfredericks	clojurebot: you are a weirdo
14:58	seangrove	I wonder what'll come out of that
14:58	clojurebot	I don't understand.
14:59	llasram	clojurebot: clojurebot is a weirdo
14:59	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
14:59	johnnybl_	How do you call a method on a classes ancestor? I have an OracleConnection and would like to call isValid on it which is defined in java.sql.Connection?
14:59	gfredericks	brunov: oh interesting -- thanks!
14:59	brunov	gfredericks: np
14:59	amalloy	johnnybl_: it exists on OracleConnection just like any other method
15:00	johnnybl_	That's what I thought also but I am getting a reflection error.
15:00	justin_smith	johnnybl_: warning, or error?
15:00	johnnybl_	(ancestors oracle.jdbc.driver.T4CConnection)
15:00	johnnybl_	#{ oracle.jdbc.internal.OracleConnection oracle.jdbc.OracleConnectionWrapper java.sql.Wrapper oracle.jdbc.OracleConnection oracle.sql.ClobDBAccess oracle.jdbc.driver.OracleConnection oracle.sql.BfileDBAccess oracle.sql.BlobDBAccess oracle.jdbc.internal.ACProxyable oracle.jdbc.driver.PhysicalConnection java.lang.Object java.lang.AutoCloseable oracle.jdbc.internal.ClientDataSupport}
15:01	johnnybl_	error
15:01	justin_smith	can you paste the error somewhere so we can see it?
15:01	amalloy	johnnybl_: so, you can see that java.sql.Connection is not in that list
15:01	amalloy	attempting to call methods as if it were a java.sql.Connection will thus fail
15:02	johnnybl_	sec let me check api I believe OracleConnection has the same method.
15:03	johnnybl_	my fault looks like 12c updated jdbc to use isUsable... Dumb mistake thank for pointing out the obvious!
15:13	miseria	"hay ladrones tan ladrones que acusan a otros ladrones de ladrones y los mandan a capturar o asesinar legalmente 'democracia?'" bienvenidos: http://castroruben.com temo_a_un_ser_sin_rival
15:46	gtrak	booted up monogame this morning, curious if anyone's tried to use clojure with it :-). or is C# so much more practical than java that it's not worth it.
15:47	bbloom	gtrak: what's java got to do with it? wouldn't it be clojure.clr ?
15:47	bbloom	also, C# is a much more adventurous language than java. it's got some pretty neat shit in there these days
15:48	gtrak	right, that's what I mean. One of the big motivators to use clojure is because java hurts so much, C# is nicer.
15:48	gtrak	monodevelop seemed pretty neat at first glance.
15:49	gtrak	so, in my first question, I meant clojure-clr.
15:50	gtrak	you probably wouldn't want to build a physics engine in it, but.. you could do neat stuff.
16:01	gtrak	I guess clojure.core projects will never use cljx
16:02	tbaldridge	gtrak: once feature expressions come out cljx won't matter as much.
16:02	tbaldridge	but of course we have to wait until that happens...
16:04	gtrak	yea, I'm just looking at XNA/monogame to help explain game-dev to a friend, but now I know clojure so well.. gears are turning :-).
16:25	malyn	gtrak: You might want to look at play-clj; seems like a better fit than monogame..? https://github.com/oakes/play-clj
16:56	bbloom	the only time i ever need to create a circular namespace dependency is when i have to implement java interfaces b/c you need to do it as part of the deftype or defrecord :-(
18:05	mrb_bk	yo yo
18:05	mrb_bk	oh whoops wrong window
18:05	mrb_bk	yo yo anyway :-p
18:05	mrb_bk	bbloom: hi
18:05	bbloom	mrb_bk: hey man, what's up?
18:05	mrb_bk	dnolen_: nice podcast, enjoyed it
18:06	bbloom	oh yeah, i scrubbed through the podcast for 10 min or so. what i heard was good stuff as usual ;-)
18:06	mrb_bk	i learned a lot about react/om that i wasn't familiar with
18:10	bbloom	tpope: i'd like to do something slightly crazy w/ fireplace & i was wondering if you could point me in the right direction
18:13	bbloom	tpope: i basically want to replace all instances of "clojure.core" with my own substitute namespace name depending on the current file extension
18:16	bbloom	tpope: thanks to you, i've become hopelessly dependent on sensible tooling, and all progress on eclj will halt unless i can make fireplace work :-)
18:17	mrb_bk	bbloom: whoah eclj looks insane
18:18	bbloom	mrb_bk: it has not even begun to be as insane as planned yet
18:18	bbloom	locally, i'm making progress on the metacircular interpreter
18:18	mrb_bk	i can only imagine
18:18	bbloom	:-)
18:18	mrb_bk	very cool
18:19	mrb_bk	looking forward to seeing progress
18:20	bbloom	mrb_bk: cool. i'll keep you posted
18:25	mrb_bk	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHP7P_HlcBk
18:42	dbasch	any idea why this is throwing html exceptions? https://www.refheap.com/74678
18:45	dnolen_	mrb_bk: thanks!
18:46	mrb_bk	dnolen_: looking forward to next week
18:46	mrb_bk	sell any tickets yet? :-p
18:46	dnolen_	mrb_bk: yep
18:47	dnolen_	we'll keep promoting it, we really can't have too many people here anyway :)
18:48	mrb_bk	awesome
18:48	mrb_bk	dnolen_: bbloom: heading home for the night - gnight!!
18:49	amalloy	dbasch: the body and response things looks a little dubious - you might be rendering that entire {:status 200 :body "test"} as a json map, rather than just the body
18:49	dbasch	amalloy: but if I request anything else, I get a 404 exception rendered as html
18:50	dbasch	amalloy: even this does it: https://www.refheap.com/74680
18:51	dbasch	amalloy: I’m running lein ring server-headless
18:51	amalloy	uhh, are you sure? you might have some stale code or something, because that last one looks pretty normal
18:51	dbasch	lein clean ; lein ring server-headless
18:52	amalloy	if so, be more clear about what's actually going wrong; i don't understand what "throwing html exceptions" means
18:52	dbasch	amalloy: I mean, I don’t expect to see html-formatted exceptions in a curl request
18:52	gfredericks	reiddraper: should I consider it a bug that (vector gen min max) generates vectors of size between min/max regardless of the size parameter?
18:52	gfredericks	we were using it to generate bounded strings via (vector some-char 0 254) and it just makes giant strings all the time
18:52	gfredericks	I can figure out a workaround but was wondering if this was a problem or not
18:53	amalloy	by the way, you can use `lein do clean, ring server-headless`
18:53	amalloy	avoid paying the startup time any more often than you have to :P
18:54	dbasch	amalloy: sure, everything helps
18:54	dbasch	amalloy: still, I want to return only json, never html
18:54	amalloy	but i dunno what to do about your problem. perhaps someone else has more knowledge/time
18:54	dbasch	amalloy: doing everything in the documentation here: https://github.com/weavejester/lein-ring
18:55	reiddraper	gfredericks: that's the current behavior, yeah, since i think it just uses gen/choose under the hood, which also ignores size
18:55	gfredericks	right
18:55	dbasch	amalloy: thanks anyway
18:55	reiddraper	gfredericks: since we don't know ahead of time what the max size will be, i'm not sure how we'd use the size param, but thats not saying there isn't something better we could do
18:55	gfredericks	reiddraper: we do know it -- this is the 3-arg version of vector
18:55	gfredericks	so max-size is one of the args, right?
18:56	gfredericks	max-elements rather
18:56	reiddraper	gfredericks: sorry, i meant at the time we create teh generator we don't know what the max-size when we _test_ it will be
18:56	reiddraper	gfredericks: this is confusing because i'm overloading the word size...
18:56	gfredericks	right
18:56	gfredericks	so max-elements and max-size are different things
18:56	hiredman	dbasch: the ring lein plugin may inject various bits of middleware at dev time
18:56	reiddraper	let's use count to mean the legnth of the vector
18:57	gfredericks	k
18:57	gfredericks	and size is the input parameter next to rnd
18:57	dbasch	hiredman: btw, these are jetty stacktraces
18:57	reiddraper	gfredericks: and size to mean the parameter to the actual generator, which is currently ignored when using arity-3 vector and choose
18:57	hiredman	dbasch: shrug
18:57	gfredericks	reiddraper: so we can at generation-time pick a count proportional to (+ min-elements size)
18:57	reiddraper	gfredericks: so when we create gen/choose or gen/vector/3, we dont' know what sizes values we'll be called with, so we can't use that range to control growth
18:58	hiredman	dbasch: if you really want to see what it will look like in production deployed to your container, then deploy it to your container
18:58	dbasch	hiredman: I do, and it looks the same
18:58	reiddraper	gfredericks: what if we do (gen/choose 0 2500) and then only ever use a max-size of 100?
18:58	dbasch	hiredman: I can’t get rid of html stacktraces from jetty
18:59	hiredman	dbasch: right, so that must be a jetty issue, so I would check the jetty docs
18:59	reiddraper	gfredericks: we need to make sure the max-size we'll be called with during a test will expose the full range of the generator, or at least i think we want that
18:59	gfredericks	reiddraper: I'm not seeing a problem here; couldn't this be (gen/bind gen/nat (fn [count-bump] (let [count (+ min-elements count-bump)] ...)))
18:59	gfredericks	ignoring the possibility of overruning max-elements there
19:00	dbasch	hiredman: lein ring uberjar creates a deployment of jetty that doesn’t seem to be configurable, or I cannot find how
19:00	hiredman	dbasch: lein ring uberjar doesn't contain jetty
19:01	hiredman	oh, uberjar
19:01	reiddraper	gfredericks: gen/nat actually hsa the same problem now, we don't use the full Integer range at the moment. right now gen/nat is bounded by the size, which defaults to only 200
19:01	hiredman	blench, use uberwar and jetty-runner
19:02	gfredericks	reiddraper: oh I think I see what you're saying
19:02	gfredericks	okay gotta spaghetti I'll ponder that
19:02	gfredericks	thanks
19:02	reiddraper	gfredericks: np, later
19:02	reiddraper	gfredericks: i do have some ideas on it i'll run by you later
19:02	dbasch	hiredman: I think that may be the solution
19:03	dbasch	hiredman: best idea so far
19:07	hiredman	doing web stuff as an uberjar with a -main that boots jetty is on my big list of sad silly things that otherwise respectible seeming people do
19:16	dbasch	hiredman: uberwar packs a web.xml file that I need to modify
19:17	technomancy	configuring with xml =(
19:17	dbasch	hiredman: I find it hard to believe that nobody has run into this while building an api with compojure
19:17	hiredman	dbasch: lein has some project.clj things you can use to fiddle with files as they get packaged up
19:18	technomancy	or you could just ... use clojure functions
19:18	hiredman	hard to say if it would work with uberwar
19:18	dbasch	hiredman: “:web-xml - web.xml file to use in place of auto-generated version (relative to project root).”
19:18	hiredman	dbasch: well, there you go
19:18	dbasch	that’s from the uberwar doc
19:19	dbasch	hiredman: I can fix it, but it’s weird that I have to go that deep to create a pure json api
19:20	hiredman	dbasch: most people would most like has add middleware to handle exceptions and turn them in to json whatever
19:20	technomancy	dbasch: you don't have to, you're just working around hidden assumptions in lein-ring
19:21	hiredman	technomancy: which assumptions?
19:21	dbasch	hiredman: yeah, I should have an outer wrapper that’s just a try-catch block that logs whatever and sends a 500 error wrapped as json
19:23	hiredman	technomancy: which assumptions?
19:24	technomancy	hiredman: lein-ring seems to be providing its own entry point that you can't see
19:24	blr	hey, anyone happen to know if phillip lord is ever on here, or is anyone usig tawny-owl in production?
19:24	hiredman	technomancy: on what basis do you say that? it takes a ring handler, what do you mean by entry point? have you ever used lein ring?
19:26	technomancy	hiredman: I've used it briefly, but then stopped when I realized it was getting in the way without providing any value.
19:26	hiredman	eyeroll
19:26	bbloom	i've made a change to nrepl.. how do i get lein to use it?
19:26	hiredman	I should fork it, they way it works is terrible though
19:28	hiredman	https://github.com/weavejester/lein-ring/issues/53
19:28	hiredman	https://github.com/weavejester/lein-ring/issues/52
19:37	technomancy	blr: he's often on as ordunswung (or something vaguely like that) but not right now
19:38	blr	technomancy: ah thanks for that.. might actually have a concrete usecase for clojure at work with tawny-owl
19:38	blr	which thrills me to no end
19:39	blr	might try emailing him
19:40	blr	technomancy: using the new erlang release yet? nice to have maps I would think
19:41	technomancy	blr: looking forward to it but haven't gotten a chance to try it yet
20:27	alew	hiredman: what's wrong with deploying an uberjar?
20:34	hiredman	alew: it is way less flexible then deploying a war to a container
20:35	hiredman	deploying a way to a container I can do things like set the contextpath, and deploy multiple apps to the same process
20:35	hiredman	you can do similar things with a fonting proxy and complicated rewrite rules
20:36	hiredman	but you can just deploy a war and use jetty runner
21:05	tpope	bbloom: you mean a textual replace on everything that goes out, or just replace all the hardcoded versions?
21:06	bbloom	tpope: i didn't consider just a find/replace on the output channel... i was going to replace all the hard coded strings w/ a variable
21:07	tpope	nah output channel sounds terrible
21:07	bbloom	tpope: i need like a "how the fuck to work on viml code" lesson. b/c restarting vim every time i change anything isn't a sensible approach
21:08	bbloom	tpope: first, i'm trying to add a key/value pair to the eval messages
21:08	tpope	bbloom: that has a simple answer: scriptease.vim's :Runtime
21:08	bbloom	tpope: you think of everything.
21:09	gfredericks	bbloom: did you just install emacs into your vim?
21:09	bbloom	gfredericks: i think i got peanut butter in my jelly
21:11	tpope	you could make a dictionary of extension -> namespace and then just do g:core_ns[expand('%:e')]
21:11	tpope	that's the simplest solution I can think of
21:11	tpope	I assume you're just playing, not trying to get anything merged in
21:13	bbloom	tpope: ok, that's helpful. don't need this merged in anytime soon
21:13	tpope	the cider-nrepl middleware is (unsurprisingly) super emacsy
21:14	tpope	I know eval is terrible and all but when every editor plugin needs its own middleware everybody loses
21:14	bbloom	tpope: do i have to :Runtime a list of files, or can i somehow do the whole of fireplace?
21:15	tpope	you can give :Runtime .../vim-fireplace/{plugin,autoload}/*/.vim I think
21:15	bbloom	too many file names :-(
21:15	tpope	fireplace is the only plugin this seriously burns me on so I haven't tried too hard to slove that problem yet
21:16	blr	tpope: are you still doing rubby stuff, or have you completely defected now?
21:17	tpope	huh well lucky for you there's only three files that matter
21:17	bbloom	tpope: yup no big deal
21:17	tpope	blr I actually recently took a short term ruby gig just to pay the bills
21:18	tpope	3 years into this consulting thing and I still take clients largely on a whim
21:20	bbloom	tpope: i'm a year in to that, it's pretty nice
21:27	Platz	/win size 30
21:27	Platz	irssi needs to trip input
21:28	Platz	trim
21:29	bbloom	tpope: i'm trying to pass an option from Eval to s:nrepl_eval
21:29	bbloom	is there a good way to inspect values while i'm working in there?
21:30	tpope	PP is scriptease's pretty print
21:30	bbloom	:Runtime has already saved me an hour of time, thanks
21:31	tpope	may as well at least skim :h scriptease
21:31	bbloom	tpope: oh i was trying simple msg things & nothing was printing. PP works great. ok i'll RTFM on scriptease
21:36	guns	Is there a way to know if a thread is waiting on an object's monitor?
21:39	guns	ooh, I bet I could extract the private lock counter from the object
21:47	bbloom	tpope: ok awesome. i've got this mostly working! thanks
21:51	bbloom	tpope: if i wanted to do a more production-quality version of this, i assume i should create a buffer level variable. is there a good place to stick that sort of initialization?
21:56	tpope	yeah I guess. we're missing an abstraction
21:56	tpope	be advised I'm very skeptical
21:58	tpope	in fact it's taking great restraint not telling you where to "stick it"
21:59	bbloom	tpope: haha, but you've enabled much awesomeness! i've got .eclj files now loading with nrep
21:59	bbloom	i can eval forms from vim in the same JVM using my interpreter interoping with clj code perfectly
22:00	bbloom	some minor tweaks, and i won't be able to tell the difference between .clj and .eclj files except when i break the interpreter lol
22:00	bbloom	tpope: thanks!
22:04	bbloom	tpope: is the missing abstraction an interface of sorts for the various generated snippets of code?
22:04	tpope	yeah
22:04	tpope	I started exploring that for cljs but ended up able to kick it down the road
22:04	bbloom	luckily, eclj is much much closer to clj
22:05	bbloom	they both run on the same host & communicate freely
22:05	tpope	also I was hoping to delegate a bunch of this to nrepl ops
22:05	tpope	but cider-nrepl was a bit of a let down
22:05	bbloom	seems sensible, i had to do this: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/NREPL-50
22:26	ddellaco_	is there a way to include something inside of /test for one project in /test for another?
22:26	shriphani	hi. has anyone played with scatter plots in incanter before ? I was wondering how to place labels on individual points - google isn't helping :)
22:27	beamso	ddellaco_: i've seen that in maven
22:27	ddellaco_	beamso: now you're just being mean
23:26	ssqq	If clojure has any function just like elisp 'unintern'?
23:27	bbloom	ssqq: just guessing: ##(doc ns-unmap)
23:27	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! ns-unmap is bad!
23:27	ssqq	When I use 'clojure.string to current namespace, I want ignore the warning of replace 'reverse' and 'replace'
23:28	bbloom	(doc ns-unmap)
23:28	clojurebot	"([ns sym]); Removes the mappings for the symbol from the namespace."
23:28	bbloom	ssqq: oh, for that use :require-clojure :exclude
23:28	ssqq	bbloom: thanks
23:28	bbloom	ssqq: don't use ns-unmap there, see (doc ns)
23:28	bbloom	ssqq: although it's common for ppl to import clojure.string :as s
23:29	bbloom	(ns my-ns (:require [clojure.core :as s]))
23:29	bbloom	then you can use s/reverse etc
23:31	ssqq	bbloom: thanks, How to get all symbols in current namespace?
23:39	guns	ssqq: (ns-publics ns)
23:44	ssqq	guns: I found (take 100 (ns-interns 'clojure.core)) could get it.
23:44	guns	ssqq: Oh I misunderstood you
23:45	ssqq	guns: you are welcome
23:50	akhudek	what could cause an object to lose a protocol implementation assigned to it via extend-type?