#clojure – 2014-04-09

2014-04-09

00:53	paxan	Is there any differences between https://github.com/clojure/tools.reader and whatever EDN reading facilities that are part of Clojure stdlib: clojure.edn/read-string and …/read?
00:56	beamso	https://github.com/clojure/tools.reader#differences-from-lispreaderjava ?
01:06	amalloy	verma: because it's not uncommon to write (apply dissoc m ks), and you don't want that to break if ks happens to be empty
01:06	seancorfield	If you only need to read _data_ you're safer using clojure.edn/read-string
01:09	beamso	this is probably a stupid question but does anyone serialise to edn?
01:12	seancorfield	(pr-str data) produces edn - for data structures :)
01:18	seancorfield	btw, if there are any ops around nanaki PM'd me with a spam/malware link so they probably ought to be kicked and banned
01:18	beamso	i probably got the same spam
01:27	amalloy	seancorfield: the only op who's here regularly is technomancy. there's been a lot of spam the last week or so; maybe it's time for another op?
01:50	seancorfield	dunno about spam but connectivity sure has sucked lately on freenode :(
01:56	amalloy	seancorfield: the past day or so are probably due to the openssl vulnerability
01:57	seancorfield	evrything being patched and restarted you mean?
01:57	amalloy	yeah
01:57	amalloy	https://twitter.com/freenodestaff alleges some of that
01:58	amalloy	i haven't had any connectivity issues, but then i don't usually notice them anyway, since i connect through a bouncer
02:02	seancorfield	I'll follow that Twitter account. Thanx amalloy !
02:02	seancorfield	dammit nanaki is spamming me again :(
02:15	paxan	seancorfield: clojure.tools.reader.edn/read-string and friends seem to be exactly same signature/option-wise to clojure.end/read-string and friends. So is there any reason to prefer one over another?
02:27	Frozenlo`	I switched to Cider (from the older nrepl.el) and now I'm getting "invalid function: 'some-function-I-want-to-complete'" when I press tab. Any idea how to solve this?
02:32	bob2	did you do cider-jack-in
02:32	bob2	did you fix up your .emacs to not refer to dead nrepl things
02:32	bob2	etc
02:32	[Neurotic]	Hey all, I've got some clojure->java interop that is throwing me the error: "IllegalArgumentException No matching field found: getCenter for class com.badlogic.gdx.math.Rectangle" - but the method is clearly there. More details here: https://www.refheap.com/73692 . Am I doing something stupid I just can't see?
02:34	bob2	is it public?
02:34	bob2	did you pass the right number of args?
02:34	[Neurotic]	bob2: THANK YOU
02:34	[Neurotic]	getter takes an argument. I totally missed that
02:35	bob2	woo
02:35	[Neurotic]	yep, that works now
02:35	[Neurotic]	facepalm
02:35	[Neurotic]	I was staring at that for hours
02:35	[Neurotic]	(well not quite hours, but still)
02:38	Frozenlock	Well, I installed the git repository instead of the ELPA package and now it looks fine.
03:18	waynr	could anyone recommend a good example of partial function application where the order of arguments matters?
03:19	wink	pow()?
03:26	waynr	nevermind, i think the docstring actually explains partial well enough
04:40	maxthoursie	anyone knows anything about dates for this years conj ?
04:42	_kardan	I'm building an application using Stuart Sierras component framework. One component uses Langohr & Rabbit. I'm a bit unsure how to deal with the fact that I need a reference to my datastore component in the message handler (that I pass to langohr.consumer/subscribe). Any tips on how to solve this?
04:45	_kardan	More specific I need to access "ds" form https://github.com/kardan/akvo-notifications/blob/feature/8-refactor-app/src/akvo/notifications/message_shredder.clj#L46 in the simple_handler at https://github.com/kardan/akvo-notifications/blob/feature/8-refactor-app/src/akvo/notifications/message_shredder.clj#L33 to be able to do more than println.
05:50	zhzhxtrrk	how to override a java method with varargs?
05:50	zhzhxtrrk	with gen-class
06:03	clgv	zhzhxtrrk: have a look at the "-main" method for jars
06:03	clgv	zhzhxtrrk: though thats defining and not overriding, but the varargs syntax is the same
06:31	noncom	how do i set a single element in a primitive java array?
06:33	dnolen_	noncom: aset
06:38	zhzhxtrrk	clgv: I'll try.
06:39	zhzhxtrrk	clgv: thanks
06:40	clgv	,(apropos "aset")
06:40	clojurebot	(aset-long aset-float aset-double aset-boolean aset-char ...)
06:40	clgv	noncom: depending on the concrete type you should choose one of those ^^
06:41	noncom	hmm, i gonna use aset-float then, but i guess that if idk the exact primitive type i can still use plain aset with the penalty of reflection?
06:42	noncom	oh and just noticed that clojure 1.6.0 is released... where can i see the list of changes for it?
06:43	zhzhxtrrk	clgv: how to declare the method sigatures? I never see the sigature for -main.
06:43	clgv	noncom: and the penalty of (un)boxing
06:43	clgv	zhzhxtrrk: it's (defn -main [& args] ...)
06:44	clgv	noncom: the Changes.md on the github repo ;)
06:44	zhzhxtrrk	I mean the (gen-class :methods [[main ....]])
06:44	noncom	clgv: oh right, just found it. i think i googled it wrong before asking :)
06:44	clgv	zhzhxtrrk: seems that is not needed for "-main"
06:45	zhzhxtrrk	clgv: I know it's not needed for -main, but with my case, I do need one.
06:46	zhzhxtrrk	clgv: We have a test framework writen in java, it's need a class overriding it's method with extra annotations.
06:47	clgv	zhzhxtrrk: do you own a copy of clojure programming? there is a gen-class example on page 378
06:49	clgv	zhzhxtrrk: here is one as well http://clojure-doc.org/articles/language/interop.html#gen-class-and-how-to-implement-java-classes-in-clojure
06:54	zhzhxtrrk	clgv: thanks
08:06	aka	do any of you guys have advice for deploying clojure apps to aws?
08:07	aka	I guess I'll checkout pallet since I can't stand the idea of using tomcat (aws beanstalk uses it)
08:10	yotsov	aka: I guess I would just build a war and deploy it to the tomcat. Tomcat had some issues years ago but is fairly OK about now, or at least I am very used to it after all these years :)
08:16	yotsov	that being said, every time I use tomcat I make sure that 1. it is behind apache proxy, 2. something restarts it regularly, like every 4 hours, 3. something checks all the time if it is alive, 4. something cleans up / archives away its logs :)
08:16	petron	is there a channel for Om?
08:21	broquaint	petron: I don't think there's a dedicated channel but #clojurescript is a good channel for it.
08:21	petron	thx, broquaint
08:22	yotsov	petron: also #reactjs potentially
08:39	aka	j clojurescript
08:40	aka	I meant to do that
08:40	aka	yotsov: I've been using http-kit behind nginx and varnish
08:40	aka	it's depressing thinking of tomcat
08:43	aka	just ran across nginx-clojure benchmarks that indicate it is better than anything ever
08:44	aka	now to figure out what it is
08:47	aka	okay that just seems insane
08:48	aka	pallet is not working
08:48	aka	anyone know if pallet is still relevant?
08:48	aka	(the clojure lib for cloud deployment)
08:52	clgv	aka: yeah, why should it not be?
08:53	mdrogalis	Does bitemyapp not hang around here anymore?
08:57	hugod	mdrogalis: I think you pinged me the other day - still relevant?
08:57	mdrogalis	hugod: Indeed. clj-ssh question. Figured it out, ty :)
08:57	hugod	aka: you can get pallet help in #pallet, though there are usually more people around later in the day
09:03	aka	clgv: the reason I asked was because the current site aws ec2 example errors due to jcloud version bug and I was looking at the wrong repo with a 2 year last commit date
09:04	aka	I see it's totally active
09:04	aka	thanks hugod
09:06	hugod	aka: try pallet-jclouds 1.7.0-alpha.3 to get round jclouds/guava issues with the latest jdk
09:09	aka	hugod: thx, giving that a try
09:25	mdrogalis	dnolen_: ping
09:33	_tim__	Anyone using datomic with geo spatial data?
09:35	john2x	how do I call a function, that takes `& {:as optargs}` as optional args, with a hashmap? basically **kwargs in python..
09:35	john2x	so given {:foo :bar}, I want to be able to call (somefn "fizz" :foo :bar)
09:36	jcromartie	,(flatten {:foo 1 :bar 2})
09:36	clojurebot	()
09:36	jcromartie	oops
09:36	jcromartie	,(flatten (seq {:foo 1 :bar 2}))
09:36	clojurebot	(:bar 2 :foo 1)
09:36	jcromartie	so you could apply that
09:37	jcromartie	(apply f "fizz" (flatten (seq m)))
09:37	jcromartie	kind of ugly
09:38	john2x	jcromartie: thanks!
10:09	dnolen_	mdrogalis: pong
10:12	mdrogalis	dnolen_: In the Om docs, you say that UIs are EDN backed and therefore snapshottable. Couldn't figure out a way from the docs to pull out the actual EDN representation.
10:13	dnolen_	mdrogalis: what are you trying to do? (om/value cursor) will work during render, @cursor outside, you can pr-str that.
10:13	mdrogalis	PM
10:47	bodie_	,(= (20 (fn [f] (f 10 10) fn [x y] (+ x y))))
10:47	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/fn, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
10:48	bodie_	Anyone know why this doesn't work?
10:49	llasram	I honestly don't know where to start
10:49	llasram	You have a macro (`fn`) in non-call position. You try to use the number `20` as a function. And you call `=` with only one argument
10:49	bodie_	"a function f is called with args 10 and 10; let this function be a function of two values X and Y, which is the sum of those values."
10:50	bodie_	ah, I must have misplaced that parenthese before 20. woops :) thanks
10:52	bodie_	llasram, I understood what you said, except the bit about fn in a non call position
10:52	bodie_	the goal there was to define an inline function which gets passed as the argument to the first defined function
10:54	bodie_	so I don't understand why an inline function can't be an argument to another function
10:55	bodie_	or I'm misunderstanding something else
10:57	bodie_	in fact, the very next koan does what appears to me to be exactly the same thing
10:57	bodie_	,(= 25 (fn [f] (f 5) fn [n] (* n n)))
10:57	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/fn, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
10:57	bodie_	oh, that doesn't work either... hmm
10:57	llasram	bodie_: You're still using `fn` in non-call position
10:58	llasram	Are you trying to do ? ##(= 25 ((fn [f] (f 5)) (fn [n] (* n n))))
10:58	lazybot	⇒ true
11:00	bodie_	llasram -- I think I understand that the problem is that I didn't wrap the first function in parentheses, which would cause it to be evaluated
11:00	llasram	You create anonymous functions with `(fn [args..] body...)`
11:00	bodie_	I'm still learning Clojure obviously :) so I'm not quite sure I was "trying" to do that since I didn't realize I needed to do so :)
11:00	llasram	All the `body...` forms become the body of the function
11:01	bodie_	"body..." needs to be an sexp right?
11:01	llasram	vs what it looks like you're expecting, that any free sequence of `fn [args...] body` becomes a function
11:01	bodie_	yes, clearly my expectations were misaligned, which is why I came here ;)
11:01	llasram	`body...` is any number of forms, which can be atomic values or s-expressions
11:01	bodie_	I see
11:02	bodie_	I think that does clarify :)
11:02	bodie_	appreciate the help
11:04	bodie_	oh, I get it. the "fn" macro gets evaluated into an actual function
11:04	bodie_	when it is the function of an sexp
11:07	llasram	Pretty much
11:20	durm	hello guys
11:20	durm	can you help me with compojure
11:20	durm	?
11:20	llasram	~anyone
11:20	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
11:20	cbp	durm: just ask yor questions
11:20	llasram	#clojure is in a surly mood today :-)
11:21	durm	I want to specify directory for upload files by passing cli params. How can I get access to this param from request handlers?
11:24	cbp	durm: cli params?
11:25	durm	(command line interface) args to main function
11:25	durm	I have param which is called media
11:26	durm	But when I do run-jetty
11:26	durm	with routes
11:27	durm	how can I pass param to handlers?
11:27	jcromartie	durm: there are a few ways you could do it
11:28	jcromartie	you could construct your handler as a closure over the media argument
11:28	cbp	durm: you can use a global variable such as an atom that you modify in your main and have your routes depend on that
11:28	jcromartie	or you could use middleware to attach the value to the request
11:29	jcromartie	(defn wrap-media [handler media] (fn [req] (handler (assoc req :media media))))
11:30	jcromartie	actually I was wondering about this earlier… we've often used closures to capture stuff like this, but I wonder if it's better to use middleware
11:30	sszzqq	what use for "clojure-1.6.0-slim.jar"?
11:31	sszzqq	Slim is related with emacs?
11:31	durm	jcromartie: 2nd way. param will be in {params :params}?
11:34	jcromartie	durm: no, it will be a key of the request map itself
11:34	jcromartie	you can destructure that with compojure's map destructuring
11:34	jcromartie	or you can just write handler functions that take the whole request and not really worry about the destructuring in the compojure routes
11:35	gtrak	ibdknox: ping. wondering if you've had a chance to look at cider-nrepl. I was hoping it might be useful, since I'm actually not attached to emacs :-). But cljs support is working pretty well now.
11:36	coventry	Oh, was that your video on /r/clojure today? Nice work.
11:36	_tim__	any datomic users here?
11:36	gtrak	ibdknox: useful in the context of light-table
11:37	technomancy	_tim__: probably more in #datomic
11:37	durm	jcromartie: cbp: thanks guys
11:39	gtrak	coventry: thanks! :-)
11:40	_tim__	thanks
11:44	gtrak	coventry: the coolest thing about it is it's not specific to cider.
11:44	gtrak	just nrepl middlewares.
11:45	bbloom	interesting to see haskell get something tagged-literal-ish: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/7.8.1/html/users_guide/type-class-extensions.html#overloaded-lists
11:46	bbloom	which reminds me, clojure needs "zero" and "one" functions: http://julia.readthedocs.org/en/latest/manual/integers-and-floating-point-numbers/#literal-zero-and-one
11:46	gtrak	tpope: I'm pretty comfortable with the nrepl cljs support now. I have a ticket to support cljs macros, but i think the interface is already baked.
11:47	gtrak	'info' gives you everything you might want about a symbol/namespace, which we use for file/line. 'complete' gives you completions, as easy as that.
12:00	stuartsierra	bbloom: Those are using types, right? So you couldn't have different sets of "tags" in one program?
12:06	bbloom	stuartsierra: yeah, uses types, but i think it's per module, not per program
12:06	bbloom	stuartsierra: which is not much better, but still
12:06	bbloom	stuartsierra: presumably you can use newtype to work around that restriction quite easily, which is essentialy the same as defining a new tag
12:08	gfredericks	(defprotocol IZero (zero [x]))
12:10	hlship	Anyone familiar with Korma and HSQLDB handy?
12:10	rasmusto	~anyone
12:10	clojurebot	anyone is anybody
12:10	rasmusto	~anyone
12:10	clojurebot	anyone is anybody
12:10	rasmusto	ugh
12:10	cbp	clojurebot: you troll
12:10	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
12:10	llasram	SO SURLY
12:10	rasmusto	hlship: long story short, ask questions first :)
12:11	hlship	Korma is putting double quotes around table and columns names
12:11	hlship	works in Postgres but not in HSQLDB (using for testing)
12:15	hlship	Ok, I think I've got it worked out; the double quotes enable case sensitivity, and HSQLDB converts unquoted table names to upper-case.
12:15	arohner	stupid question. In :foo/bar, (namespace) returns "foo". what fn returns "bar" ?
12:16	gfredericks	name
12:16	arohner	ah, thanks
12:17	justin_smith	name also works on symbols
12:18	justin_smith	as does namespace, I now see
12:22	aka	is there an idiomatic way to put a noop placeholder in clojure?
12:23	justin_smith	aka: in what context?
12:23	gtrak	aka: if it's a function call, identity works great.
12:23	gtrak	in a let binding, _ is a good placeholder
12:24	justin_smith	{} is good for a value that will be filled in later
12:24	aka	I have a shutdown function that will need to do something eventually but it isn't doing anything right now while I do initial development
12:25	justin_smith	functions don't need bodies
12:25	justin_smith	,((fn []))
12:25	clojurebot	nil
12:26	justin_smith	,((fn [] #_ (eventually this will shut something down)))
12:26	clojurebot	nil
12:26	justin_smith	<3 #_
12:26	aka	perfect
12:26	aka	thanks
12:27	justin_smith	just note that the data following #_ needs to be a valid / readable form
12:27	justin_smith	even if the symbols in it are not bound
12:28	aka	gotcha
12:30	ambrosebs	Bronsa: apparently the stale :deftype class didn't fix Sean's issue
12:30	ambrosebs	Bronsa: I'll try and recreate the situation
12:30	ambrosebs	I assume it's something to do with definterface
12:40	gfredericks	seque covers about 90% of the times I've had the thought "I could do that with core.async"
12:41	Bronsa	ambrosebs: I'll look into this in ~10 minutes, let me know if you can reproduce
12:42	gtrak	gfredericks: you probably don't want to use core.async for a single queue :-).
12:45	gtrak	so, every time you might feel like you need it, that's 90%. If you need it ten times, that's .9^10, or 35% likely that you don't need core.async :-)
12:46	gtrak	maybe 90% is a little generous
12:46	ssqq_	How to know current namespace symbol table?
12:46	justin_smith	ssqq_: (ns-publics ns)
12:47	justin_smith	,(ns-publics ns)
12:47	clojurebot	{}
12:47	justin_smith	,(do (def foo :foo) (ns-publics ns))
12:47	clojurebot	{foo #'sandbox/foo}
12:47	hyPiRion	ns-refers for all the functions you can use in a namespace
12:47	hyPiRion	,(ns-refers ns)
12:47	clojurebot	{primitives-classnames #'clojure.core/primitives-classnames, +' #'clojure.core/+', decimal? #'clojure.core/decimal?, restart-agent #'clojure.core/restart-agent, sort-by #'clojure.core/sort-by, ...}
12:48	justin_smith	hyPiRion: that is only for things you can use unqualified by a ns prefix, right?
12:48	hyPiRion	justin_smith: yes
12:48	justin_smith	,(map ns-publics (all-ns)) ; to get EVERYTHING
12:48	clojurebot	({} {} {primitives-classnames #'clojure.core/primitives-classnames, +' #'clojure.core/+', decimal? #'clojure.core/decimal?, restart-agent #'clojure.core/restart-agent, sort-by #'clojure.core/sort-by, ...} {foo #'sandbox/foo} {source-fn #'clojure.repl/source-fn, doc #'clojure.repl/doc, stack-element-str #'clojure.repl/stack-element-str, find-doc #'clojure.repl/find-doc, dir #'clojure.repl/dir, ...}...
12:50	justin_smith	oh wait, that lacks things from the current ns that are not public (but are still visible since you are in said ns...)
12:51	justin_smith	,(cons (ns-interns ns) (map ns-publics (all-ns))) ; OK that should be everything
12:51	clojurebot	({foo #'sandbox/foo} {} {} {primitives-classnames #'clojure.core/primitives-classnames, +' #'clojure.core/+', decimal? #'clojure.core/decimal?, restart-agent #'clojure.core/restart-agent, sort-by #'clojure.core/sort-by, ...} {foo #'sandbox/foo} ...)
12:53	Bronsa	ambrosebs: so, nothing to do with definterface.
12:54	Bronsa	ambrosebs: it's a classloader issue, works fine from a lein repl but fails on a slime repl here. I'm still trying to figure out if it's a bug in t.a or in core.typed
12:56	tpope	gtrak: you taking completion or a bigger picture?
12:56	ambrosebs	Bronsa: ah. Haven't tried it yet
12:56	gtrak	tpope: we use file/line for navigating source.
12:56	gtrak	so, hover over a symbol, get the info, jump to the file, which might be inside a jar.
12:57	gtrak	so I'd type 'om/build', hit M-., then I'd be in the om.core namespace source looking at the impl.
12:58	gtrak	'om' is an alias resolved from the current repl namespace, that's one of the arguments to info.
12:58	gtrak	the "info" nrepl op
12:58	tpope	this was a middleware right? I've forgotten most of the context
12:58	gtrak	yea yea
12:59	tpope	can you link me?
12:59	gtrak	to what, specifically?
12:59	tpope	where does this middleware live?
13:00	gtrak	https://github.com/clojure-emacs/cider-nrepl
13:02	technomancy	gtrak: so you're working on making that less emacs-specific?
13:02	gtrak	it's already not emacs-specific, unless I'm missing something
13:02	gtrak	gotta run for a few mins, but I'll scroll up.
13:02	technomancy	well, the readme at least
13:03	gtrak	ah.. I guess I could :-)
13:04	tpope	and the name :)
13:04	tpope	but if that's the worst problem I'll take it
13:12	myguidingstar	hi all, when I make changes to source files during REPL and cause some file unable to compile, how do I get more verbose feedback other than ':error-while-loading ...'?
13:14	Bronsa	ambrosebs: I think I got a fix
13:17	stuartsierra	myguidingstar: Try (pst)
13:23	myguidingstar	stuartsierra, I set up things like your reloaded template, but (pst) returns nil even after an :error-while-loading
13:28	Bronsa	ambrosebs: http://sprunge.us/LDTP this seems to fix the issue
13:29	gtrak	tpope: I had to get assimilated to get help from bbatsov, name wasn't really up to me, sorry :-).
13:31	ambrosebs	Bronsa: thanks! how did you figure that out?
13:31	justin_smith	myguidingstar: so you are using component to reload the ns?
13:31	justin_smith	myguidingstar: if so, try (require 'some.ns :reload) and then looking at the error
13:31	Bronsa	ambrosebs: https://github.com/clojure/tools.analyzer.jvm/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/analyzer/jvm/utils.clj#L16-L20 :)
13:31	ambrosebs	;)
13:33	ambrosebs	Bronsa: amazing commit msg typo https://github.com/clojure/tools.analyzer.jvm/commit/e11a81a98bccd2e5d4052c89fcaf10ab5663541a
13:34	Bronsa	ambrosebs: yeah
13:34	Bronsa	ambrosebs: I also copy-pasted that commit message in tools.analyzer and tools.emitter.jvm
13:34	Bronsa	when I noticed it was too late.
13:34	ambrosebs	love it
13:34	justin_smith	I would know exactly what someone meant if they said some feature was contribugged to their repo
13:34	myguidingstar	justin_smith, thanks for pointing out that. Though I expected it somehow replace the :error-while-loading message
13:35	Bronsa	justin_smith: hah
13:35	myguidingstar	(so no more keystroke ;)
13:36	justin_smith	"dude's been contribuging me about his email client patch for ages, he really needs to take a hint"
13:37	bodie_	I'm having a really hard time understanding why this is failing. Can anyone point me in the right direction? http://cljbin.com/paste/5345848de4b088e54dd68ef0
13:38	bodie_	(if you could keep algorithm criticisms separate, that would be nice. ;) )
13:38	justin_smith	bodie_: (acc) should be acc
13:39	justin_smith	bodie_: also, pop sometimes takes off the beginning, sometimes the end, depending on type, you probably want rest
13:39	bodie_	and there you have it
13:39	bodie_	thank you sir
13:39	justin_smith	np
13:40	justin_smith	also (= foo 0) is the same as (zero? foo)
13:40	Bronsa	ambrosebs: also, I don't know if you're aware of this or even need it but since you're using clojure.reflect, I discovered that `reflect` even with :ancestors true does not return any of the Object members if they don't get overritten
13:40	justin_smith	or at least close enough for your usage :)
13:40	jwm	hmm lighttable is kind of dead.. anyone point me to a good way of using node.js based cljs nrepl with lighttable?
13:42	ambrosebs	Bronsa: not sure
13:42	ambrosebs	Bronsa: might have figured it out a few years ago.
13:44	Bronsa	ambrosebs: I don't know if it's by design or if it's a bug, but I'm opening a ticket regardless. Wasted an evening trying to figure out why I was getting a reflection warning :/
13:44	ambrosebs	Bronsa: thanks
13:46	oskarth	Getting a "record? already refers to #'clojure.core.logic/record?" error when using core.logic and Clojure 1.6. What is the recommended solution for this?
13:46	justin_smith	oskarth: don't use "use"
13:47	ambrosebs	oskarth: I think this is fixed in core.logic master
13:47	bodie_	justin_smith / anyone else -- do you think my solution was a good approach? (link for reference: http://cljbin.com/paste/5345848de4b088e54dd68ef0)
13:47	ambrosebs	oskarth: whether there's a release, not sure
13:47	bodie_	I'm kinda new to fp, and I could see how this might be a bad idea since it makes tons and tons of copies?
13:47	Bronsa	uh. so the issue is because interfaces don't have Object in their ancestors
13:47	bodie_	s/?/./
13:48	justin_smith	bodie_: that is still the old version
13:48	oskarth	I see, I'll do it with require for now then, thanks :)
13:48	jwm	so another question if I just use mongodb, snmp, websockets would I be better off just switching to clojure/jvm library
13:48	bodie_	woops
13:49	bodie_	http://cljbin.com/paste/53458763e4b088e54dd68ef5
13:49	bodie_	that
13:49	hiredman	yes
13:50	justin_smith	bodie_: yeah, that's better, though I still think (zero? (count orig)) would be better than (= (count orig) 0) style wise
13:50	justin_smith	at least it is now correct, and for multiple sequential datatypes
13:50	rasmusto	what about (empty? orig)
13:50	bodie_	right, that makes sense. but algorithmically / efficiency-wise how is it, or are there other means I should use?
13:50	bodie_	hmm, gp
13:50	justin_smith	(inc rasmusto)
13:50	lazybot	⇒ 6
13:50	cbp	bodie_: you need rest not pop
13:50	justin_smith	even better
13:51	justin_smith	cbp: he updated it
13:51	bodie_	cbp, http://cljbin.com/paste/53458763e4b088e54dd68ef5 corrected version
13:51	cbp	ah
13:51	cbp	soz
13:51	rasmusto	wasn't sure if 'empty? works similarly for things that are counted/not
13:51	bodie_	^^
13:51	justin_smith	bodie_: yeah, rasmusto's suggestion to use (empty? acc) is best
13:52	bodie_	that makes sense, but now I'm interested in beefing my alg design
13:52	bodie_	would this be a candidate for mutable state?
13:52	bodie_	let's say there are 100,000,000 elements in the sequence
13:52	bodie_	that seems like it would be quite a few copies
13:52	klokbaske	Hi! Is it possible to interop with Clojure from Java without building a jar?
13:53	rasmusto	,(take 10 (reverse (range)))[C[C
13:53	hiredman	very
13:53	clojurebot	#<OutOfMemoryError java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space>
13:53	justin_smith	bodie_: transients would not really help, sadly, because conj! appends to the end of a vector
13:53	rasmusto	,(take 10 (reverse (range 1e6)))
13:53	clojurebot	#<OutOfMemoryError java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space>
13:53	rasmusto	hrm
13:53	justin_smith	I guess you could use last/butlast instead of first/rest plus a transient vector and conj!
13:53	justin_smith	dunno if that would do any good
13:54	bodie_	interesting to think about
13:54	cbp	,(reduce conj () [1 2 3 4 5])
13:54	clojurebot	(5 4 3 2 1)
13:54	llasram	(inc cbp)
13:54	lazybot	⇒ 2
13:54	bodie_	lol, niiiiice
13:54	justin_smith	,(reduce conj [] [1 2 3 4 5])
13:54	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4 5]
13:54	hyPiRion	bodie_: what do you want to do? Will you always work on a vector?
13:54	rasmusto	hah, cool
13:54	bodie_	hyPiRion, it's just to solve a Koan :)
13:54	hyPiRion	oh
13:55	hyPiRion	,(into [] (rseq [1 2 3 4 5]))
13:55	clojurebot	[5 4 3 2 1]
13:55	bodie_	but in principle, I'd like to know the "Right Way" of solving the general problem
13:55	justin_smith	cbp's version is the same as the source of clojure.core/reverse
13:55	justin_smith	which is a good hint it is the right way :)
13:55	bodie_	:D
13:55	Jaood	is clojure.core a good read?
13:55	hyPiRion	well, look up rseq if performance is a concern
13:56	cbp	a must read at some point in time
13:56	justin_smith	Jaood: the clojure code often is, but not the java code imho
13:56	bodie_	thanks hyPiRion!!
13:56	justin_smith	but even the clojure code is more fiddly and performance oriented than most clojure code in normal projects
13:56	hyPiRion	Jaood: to understand Clojure, it is. It's a bad idea to use the style used in core though
13:57	hyPiRion	bodie_: yw
13:57	bodie_	the koan specifically was a problem about recursive functions, so I suspect that recursion is not the answer to the problem of list reversal :)
13:58	Jaood	yeah, that's what I though, it may impose bad style on beginner, maybe later ;)
13:58	Jaood	+a
13:58	bodie_	lol -- hyPiRion -- am I right in thinking that rseq simply reverses the direction the list is accessed in?
13:59	justin_smith	Jaood: I think the code in flatland/useful is generally good, and you will probably learn some tricks and style hints from it https://github.com/flatland/useful/tree/develop/src/flatland/useful
13:59	Jaood	bodie_: in constant time
13:59	hyPiRion	bodie_: Hrm, sorta. It's not a reversed vector, it's a lazy sequence
13:59	hyPiRion	So looking up the nth element in it is O(n), not O(1)
14:00	pyrtsa	bodie_: Also rseq won't work for lists because they don't support O(1) reversal.
14:00	pyrtsa	,(rseq ())
14:00	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList$EmptyList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Reversible>
14:00	pyrtsa	,(rseq '(1 2 3))
14:00	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Reversible>
14:00	pyrtsa	,(rseq [1 2 3])
14:00	clojurebot	(3 2 1)
14:00	pyrtsa	Curiously:
14:00	pyrtsa	,(rseq (rseq [1 2 3]))
14:00	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.APersistentVector$RSeq cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Reversible>
14:00	bodie_	interesting, the distinction between lists, vectors, and sequences is still really murky for me
14:01	bodie_	ew
14:01	pyrtsa	bodie_: A list is a linked list.
14:01	bodie_	that's a good point about rseq not being 1-1
14:02	justin_smith	a vector is a hash-array
14:02	justin_smith	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hash_array_mapped_trie
14:02	bodie_	nice
14:02	justin_smith	or wait - that is the hashmap, but vector is related...
14:02	hyPiRion	it's not a HASH-array, it's a persistent trie
14:02	justin_smith	hyPiRion: cool, thanks
14:03	Jaood	justin_smith: nice, thanks
14:03	hyPiRion	but you're right about the hashmap though
14:03	bodie_	when you program in clojure, do you typically think of it as manipulation of these fundamental building blocks (like how I think when using C++?)
14:03	bodie_	or as its abstracted form
14:04	justin_smith	bodie_: I think of a program as a function from the input data structure(s) to the output data structure(s), typically at the top level of the design I can ignore the impl details, and it is only for pragmatic reasons that I choose between list and lazy-seq and vector and array etc.
14:04	hyPiRion	shameless self-plug on persistent vector explaination: http://hypirion.com/musings/understanding-persistent-vector-pt-1
14:05	justin_smith	(inc hyPiRion)
14:05	lazybot	⇒ 35
14:05	bodie_	polymatheia... love it!
14:05	bodie_	(inc hyPiRion)
14:05	lazybot	⇒ 36
14:05	hyPiRion	:D
14:05	cbp	Ah, so that's where that post went, I was googling for it the other day and came up empty
14:06	bodie_	damn, this is awesome
14:06	bodie_	hyPiRion, I assume you use clojure professionally?
14:06	bodie_	(and justin_smith)
14:07	justin_smith	bodie_: yes, I develop the caribou lib as an in-house tool for a web shop
14:07	hyPiRion	bodie_: I'm still a student, but my master thesis is very closely related to the persistent vector
14:07	hyPiRion	but I'm going to work in Clojure for a startup from July and onwards
14:08	bodie_	congrats :)
14:08	justin_smith	startups have this ingenious system where you can cash in SAN points for large amounts of money
14:08	justin_smith	it's a great deal if you have more sanity than you know what to do with :)
14:08	bodie_	lol
14:09	bodie_	I keep telling myself it depends on the startup
14:09	justin_smith	the vcs
14:09	justin_smith	they call shots
14:09	hyPiRion	yeah, it really does
14:09	bodie_	some people really suck at leadership
14:09	bodie_	I also keep telling myself it's possible to bootstrap without vc, lol
14:10	justin_smith	bodie_: but the good money is post-vc, and they call the shots once their money is in the mix
14:10	pjstadig	hyPiRion: what is your master's thesis?
14:10	Jaood	while looking for db it seems couchdb doesn't get much love in the clojure community, seems practical since you only need a http client
14:10	hyPiRion	bodie_: we still don't have any VCs, only a single angel
14:10	technomancy	Jaood: I'm a fan
14:10	bodie_	awesome... what problem domain?
14:10	technomancy	for a lot of things anyway
14:11	hyPiRion	pjstadig: improving constant factors in the RRB-tree
14:11	Jaood	technomancy: oh cool, for what domains do you use it?
14:12	pjstadig	hyPiRion: cool
14:12	hyPiRion	bodie_: building industry tooling
14:13	technomancy	Jaood: I haven't used bigcouch at all, but the "user can own their own data" aspecst of its replication model are very appealing to me
14:13	hyPiRion	It's a bit strange, because as far as I've seen, the tooling is horrible, and you only have to implement tools which are of standard quality to get the upper hand
14:13	justin_smith	hyPiRion: so many industries are like that
14:13	bodie_	heh
14:14	justin_smith	some day I may just make the killer warehouse management app, having used a piece of shit one once upon a time
14:14	hyPiRion	justin_smith: yeah, but the thing is, there seems to be noone trying to solve the problem
14:14	Jaood	technomancy: hasn't the bigcouch code been merge into couchdb yet?
14:14	bodie_	there's so much shit out there it's almost impossible to know where to start
14:14	technomancy	Jaood: IIRC it's in progress as we speak
14:14	justin_smith	hyPiRion: yeah, lots of inertia and "well it's almost good enough" in specific domain oriented tech all around
14:14	hiredman	hyPiRion: selling ads faster to the highest bidder is the challenge of our generation
14:14	technomancy	I haven't used any database nontrivially in years though
14:15	bodie_	most of the problems which are currently solved with shit, aren't looking for solutions, is the major abstract problem
14:15	technomancy	unless you want to get pedantic and count s3
14:15	justin_smith	hyPiRion: the hard point is selling them on the retraining (unless you plan on totally insane backwards compat quagmire)
14:15	hyPiRion	justin_smith: "we can't afford the training of this almost equivalent tool UI-wise, which processes stuff 5 times faster"
14:15	bodie_	lol
14:16	bodie_	I mean, look at the software places like Sears use at registers
14:16	hyPiRion	"oh no, now I can't make coffee while my 4 GB model loads on my computer"
14:16	hyPiRion	"let's switch back guys"
14:16	bodie_	it sucks horribly but it'll be around forever because they don't have a real need to improve
14:17	bodie_	lol hyPiRion
14:17	bodie_	seems legit
14:17	justin_smith	hyPiRion: you have users who don't understand the software, they just have a very specific workflow memorized
14:17	justin_smith	they hate any replacement because they hate learning
14:17	justin_smith	it's a big problem
14:18	bodie_	solution: all jobs should be a single button press
14:18	hiredman	Jaood: I suspect I have never given couch a fair shake because descriptions of it don't appeal, I am not wild about "document" stores, or javascript, or mapreduce, or json
14:18	justin_smith	also because their old tools were total pieces of shit, they are afraid to try anything out, because they are sure it will randomly destroy the whole system
14:18	hyPiRion	justin_smith: Well, not necessarily learning, but the fear of wasting money on something insignificant
14:19	justin_smith	and yeah, with the old system it was easy to do that
14:19	technomancy	hiredman: but you can mapreduce in erlangggg!
14:19	bodie_	dat erlang
14:19	hiredman	technomancy: oh boy!
14:19	justin_smith	hyPiRion: no, the people actually using the tool hate change and hate learning and hate the fact they even have to use a computer
14:20	bodie_	so the real problem is even bigger than the fact that all the shitty situations out there aren't being improved
14:20	hyPiRion	justin_smith: I'm still too young I guess, with a naive optimistic world view. :p
14:20	bodie_	the real problem is the people perpetuating them
14:21	justin_smith	I saw first hand the reason new tools don't catch on, before I even got into the software biz
14:21	hiredman	eventual consistency is also something I would only choose if backed in to it
14:22	bodie_	I think the solution to that problem is to create subsets of society that DO use good solutions, and when those subsets inevitably overtake the more wasteful / slower ones, then people will start to transition to a new way of thinking about problem-solving
14:22	Jaood	hiredman: http://docs.couchdb.org/en/latest/intro/consistency.html :)
14:23	bodie_	so then the problem to solve isn't "everyone is stupid", it's "how do I get smart people together"
14:23	hiredman	Jaood: what is the purpose of this link?
14:23	justin_smith	bodie_: the problem is these people may hate change but they also have very valuable domain knowledge, so a bunch of whippersnappers aren't neccissarily going to out compete just because they have better tooling
14:24	justin_smith	bodie_: I think the solution is to introduce tooling that is so much better that the pain of change is less than the pain of the current system, but this is a much higher bar to clear than just being better than the status quo
14:24	justin_smith	you have to be like 500% better than the status quo
14:24	hiredman	I am well aware of cap
14:24	bodie_	heh
14:24	Jaood	hiredman: oh, misundertand you, though you were asking about eventual consistency in couchdb and was reading that at the moment
14:25	hiredman	oh no, http://couchdb.apache.org/ has everthing that triggers a "pass" from me, no futher reading required :)
14:25	bodie_	ideally, the tooling gives you the extra time and leverage you need to spend on the real problems you're trying to solve, I think
14:26	hiredman	I am sure it's great or whatever, I am just not interested :)
14:26	bodie_	it seems like an awful lot of devops related stuff over the last couple of years has been so, so configuration and deploy oriented, and so much less about .. you know... the actual problem
14:26	bodie_	I mean, yes, it's great to solve problems with powerful tools, but when the problem IS the tool, you know you've gone too far
14:27	bodie_	then again... sell what they're buying, right
14:27	bodie_	mapreduce all the things
14:27	gtrak	bodie_: it's the logical outcome.
14:27	llasram	hiredman: But it's written in Erlang!
14:28	bodie_	seems illogical to me ;)
14:28	gtrak	don't worry, in 20 years we'll all be writing netkernel.
14:28	hiredman	great, so the log files will be in linear b
14:28	bodie_	i'm still holding out hope for hurd :P
14:29	miseria	"los discursos politicos y su demagogia, para torturar un pueblo, son decorados con la frase: derechos humanos" bienvenidos: http://castroruben.com temo_a_un_ser_sin_rival
14:29	bodie_	juuuust kidding.
14:29	gtrak	bodie_: when it's easier to add another hack than to generalize, you get layers of virtualization :-)
14:30	gtrak	if we had a top-down-enforced distributed lisp machine, this wouldn't be a problem.
14:30	pandeiro	could anyone help me translate the third answer here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5206633/find-out-what-application-window-is-in-focus-in-java (Unix/Linux version) from Java to Clojure?
14:31	gtrak	or at least we'd have better abstractions than bash scripts
14:31	pandeiro	I specifically don't know interop well enough to translate the XLib interface into Clojure
14:31	bodie_	lol
14:31	amalloy	pandeiro: you can link to a specific answer - "third" isn't very good because people may have different answer-sort preferences. i assume you're talking about http://stackoverflow.com/a/18275492/625403
14:31	bodie_	"We're from the IRS. It seems your DLISP node isn't performing up to the expectations of your salary level."
14:32	bodie_	"Do not resist."
14:32	pandeiro	amalloy: you may be able to, but i was unable to figure out how ;)
14:32	gtrak	bodie_: tradeoffs :-)
14:32	amalloy	there's a Share button at the bottom-left of each answer
14:32	bodie_	fair enough
14:32	bodie_	I for one welcome our LISPy overlords
14:32	pandeiro	amalloy: that's not a button
14:33	pandeiro	but i grant your point
14:33	oskarth	Using core.logic, is it possible to use a finite domain consisting of operators (like for example plus and minus), and then use the resulting Lvars to apply as functions (like (x 4 6) where x is the Lvar +)?
14:33	pandeiro	the piece i am trying to do is here: http://stackoverflow.com/a/18275492
14:33	amalloy	as for the question - i wouldn't write that in clojure. it's much easier to just write that interface in java
14:34	amalloy	include it in your clojure project if you want; lein makes that easy
14:34	pandeiro	amalloy: interesting, i didn't know that
14:35	pandeiro	what i don't get is where the xlib.XGetInputFocus() implementation is coming from
14:35	amalloy	pandeiro: jni magic
14:35	pandeiro	that's that weird INSTANCE property i take it
14:36	pandeiro	way out of my league here but i have to figure out a way to programatically close a java web plugin popup window and i am grasping at straws
14:40	justin_smith	pandeiro: can't you access the windowing framework that the web plugin is using? I doubt it is using xlib / x11 directly
14:42	pandeiro	justin_smith: yes it must be using swing or something but i have no idea how i can get into another jvm process' windows - i don't control the plugin
14:43	justin_smith	ahh so you want to find the window via X11 and close it
14:43	dbasch	quick question: how do I disable html stacktraces in a ring webapp?
14:43	bodie_	ugh, what's the trick to this? http://cljbin.com/paste/53459425e4b088e54dd68efb
14:43	amalloy	dbasch: don't include the wrap-stacktrace wrapper :P
14:44	bodie_	do I need type hinting?
14:44	bodie_	(for bigint)
14:44	dbasch	amalloy: I’m not including it, and I still get them :(
14:44	justin_smith	pandeiro: I bet using xwit and / or wmctrl via the shell will be much easier. This can be done in a shell script or via shell calls in a clojure program, maybe using raynes' conch lib
14:44	pandeiro	justin_smith: exactly, just need to close it
14:44	amalloy	you're including it transitively through some other wrapper. like maybe compojure's "site" wrapper, or something
14:44	pandeiro	xwit and wmctrl, cool i will look into those
14:44	dbasch	amalloy: that’s what I suspect, but I can’t find it. Oh well.
14:45	justin_smith	bodie_: use recur and an accumulator so that each call is a tail call
14:45	cbp	bodie_: bigintegers have nothing to do with that error, you're blowing the stack because your algorithm is recursive a
14:45	cbp	..and the input is too large
14:45	justin_smith	bodie_: the trick to tail calls is that no calculation must be left to do after the last call returns
14:45	dbasch	amalloy: I’m using the “api” wrapper
14:45	justin_smith	bodie_: so you use an acc arg much like in the reverse, but instead of a list it is a number
14:46	justin_smith	cbp: no, it just isn't tail recursive
14:46	cbp	well yes
14:47	justin_smith	yeah, the number is too large for unoptimized recursion
14:47	justin_smith	but the solution isn't a smaller input number, it's to do tail recursion (or a non-recursive algo)
14:49	bodie_	right -- of course, I got sidetracked by the error I got from my REPL
14:49	bodie_	"StackOverflowError clojure.lang.Numbers.toBigInt (Numbers.java:249)"
14:50	justin_smith	so do you get the idea of creating an acc arg so that each recursive call can be a recur?
14:51	justin_smith	you can either make it an optional arg to the function, or a binding in a loop/recur
14:51	bodie_	yeah, that part I get
14:52	bodie_	the error about "toBigInt" doesn't make sense to me
14:52	bodie_	so I'd assumed it was bigint related
14:52	justin_smith	that's the function that overflowed
14:52	justin_smith	with a stackoverflow, often the specific funciton that overflowed the stack is kind of random
14:52	bodie_	so I guess um, probably the multiply or dec was attempting to cast to a bigint?
14:52	justin_smith	other than the fact that it just happens to be in the recursive call chain
14:52	bodie_	makes sense
14:52	justin_smith	bodie_: that is irrelevant
14:53	bodie_	yeah, but I'm curious. XD
14:53	bodie_	I guess the world will never know.
14:53	justin_smith	stack overflow means, "consume less stack"
14:53	bodie_	right, that part I do grasp :) it evaded my attention
14:53	justin_smith	you could use jvisualvm or the like to interact with the stack
14:53	justin_smith	if you really want to see what is going on
14:54	justin_smith	or even just trigger a full stack trace via (pst)
14:55	justin_smith	likely it calls toBigInt because thanks to the lack of type hinting it doesn't know that the arg to factorial will already be a bigint
14:56	justin_smith	(that's just a guess)
14:56	bodie_	woot, tco version passed
14:56	justin_smith	congrats
14:56	bodie_	um, there IS a trampolining tco technique in clojure, isn't there?
14:56	justin_smith	,(doc trampoline)
14:56	clojurebot	"([f] [f & args]); trampoline can be used to convert algorithms requiring mutual recursion without stack consumption. Calls f with supplied args, if any. If f returns a fn, calls that fn with no arguments, and continues to repeat, until the return value is not a fn, then returns that non-fn value. Note that if you want to return a fn as a final value, you must wrap it in some data structure and un...
14:57	bodie_	ah
14:57	bodie_	whee
14:57	cbp	bodie_: it was the = that was casting
14:57	cbp	to compare 1 with a bigint
14:57	justin_smith	cbp: oh, cool
14:57	bodie_	interesting
14:57	bodie_	how'd you get that?
15:06	bodie_	justin_smith, thanks for the pointer to jvisualvm. I've never used this. cool!
15:08	justin_smith	np, it comes with the jdk (as you probably already noticed)
15:08	justin_smith	it helps with many of those "what is my program on the jvm actually doing, and where did the ram go?" type questions
15:13	bodie_	cbp, I see how you got that
15:14	bodie_	or do I...
15:14	bodie_	,(= 1 1N)
15:14	clojurebot	true
15:14	bodie_	,(#(= 1 %) 1N)
15:14	clojurebot	true
15:15	bodie_	:S
15:15	justin_smith	= is calling the cast function, as he said
15:15	bodie_	right, but what's wrong with the cast to compare 1 and 100003N?
15:15	justin_smith	nothing
15:16	justin_smith	remember the cast is not a problem, it just happened to be the call that blew the stack
15:16	bodie_	oh, the stack overflow happened in that cast function
15:16	justin_smith	the real problem is the stack
15:16	bodie_	I see
15:16	justin_smith	it was the straw the blew the camel's stack
15:16	justin_smith	or whatever
15:17	mimieux	Hi!
15:17	mimieux	How to run "local code" on a remote repl?
15:18	jcromartie	like a file?
15:18	mimieux	yes
15:19	justin_smith	you can send the forms in the file to be evaluated one at a time, or copy the file to the remote host and load it
15:19	justin_smith	both should do the same thing (except for gen-class I guess?)
15:22	mimieux	I want to issue a command like: ssh user@host -C "command"
15:22	mimieux	and process its results, all with clojure.
15:22	mimieux	clj user@host -C "command.clj"
15:22	Xeago	(crossposting from #riemann; the given code is written for riemann): can I write this differently? (where* #(not (predicate? %)) …)?
15:23	cbp	that #() is (complement predicate?)
15:23	justin_smith	mimieux: probably you want to use clojure.tools.nrepl.client to connect and send the contents of the file, unless there is some tool or lein plugin that already does that
15:24	mimieux	justin_smith: yeah, this is what i want. thx.
15:25	cYmen	phew
15:26	cYmen	evening...now where do I find some motivation to look at om
15:26	cbp	Xeago: you can replace #(not (predicate? %)) with (complement predicate?)
15:26	justin_smith	mimieux: another thing to consider is that nrepl does not by default accept remote connections (for obvious security related reasons) so you should create and use an ssh tunnel (or some other protected manner of connecting)
15:27	mimieux	justin_smith: I see. :)
15:28	justin_smith	I think it is easiest to create the tunnel using ssh and then point clojure at the local tunnel endpoint
15:29	bodie_	justin_smith, checking out caribou. seems supe neat :)
15:29	justin_smith	bodie_: thanks, it is still very much a work in progress, but we find it very useful for our own web stuff at least
15:30	Xeago	,(doc complement)
15:30	clojurebot	"([f]); Takes a fn f and returns a fn that takes the same arguments as f, has the same effects, if any, and returns the opposite truth value."
15:31	justin_smith	,((-> even? complement complement complement) 2)
15:31	clojurebot	false
15:33	Xeago	,(doc ->)
15:33	clojurebot	"([x & forms]); Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the second item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the second item in second form, etc."
15:34	justin_smith	Xeago: that thing I did was pretty pointless actually. But -> and complement are actually useful.
15:36	mdrogalis	YouTube just suggested the video "Functional Programming is Terrible"
15:36	mdrogalis	Well, I'm sure this isn't biased or anything.
15:36	justin_smith	lol
15:37	justin_smith	check out google auto-complete for "functional programming is "
15:37	bbloom	wow.
15:37	bbloom	that's pretty sad
15:37	bbloom	that's our comp sci education failing right there
15:38	mdrogalis	Hah, wow.
15:38	blake__	"functional programming is challenging and makes me uncomfortable in my head"
15:38	wink	stupid hard not the answer :)
15:38	akhudek	bbloom: worse than that, many people think CS is hard and stupid too :-(
15:38	blake__	I just wanted to program computers, not think, dammit!
15:38	cbp	cs isnt hard? that's news to me :-P
15:38	bbloom	akhudek: meanwhile, just a tiny bit of computer science and suddenly problems that are 10+ man years turn in to < 10 man hours
15:39	akhudek	yep
15:39	wink	mdrogalis: did you check the description?
15:39	wink	Rúnar Bjarnason loves functional programming, but here he plays devil's advocate and addresses some of its shortcomings. (Don't worry, there's a happy ending)
15:40	wink	those "django sucks" rant talks are some of the best of pycon I heard. and usually not bashing :P
15:40	mdrogalis	wink: Ah. Did not even click it.
15:40	mdrogalis	Couldn't be distracted ATM
15:40	wink	hehe
15:40	wink	I suspected something like this
15:40	bbloom	happy ending: "functional programming is not terrible. YOU'RE TERRIBLE"
15:40	bbloom	also, you smell.
15:40	wink	cf http://programmingisterrible.com/
15:41	justin_smith	actually, a nuanced video called "functional programming sucks ass" that actually ends up introducing a couple of concepts that could lead a skeptic to seeing how fp would be useful would probably be a good way to convert people (if conversion is a goal)
15:42	mdrogalis	Hah
15:43	wink	"best way to get people on a mailing list to explain stuff is to say 'X cannot do Y'"
15:43	justin_smith	right
15:44	kenrestivo	i'm trying to track down a weird error:
15:44	kenrestivo	"ErrnoException open failed: ENOENT (No such file or directory) libcore.io.Posix.open (Posix.java:-2)"
15:45	kenrestivo	when C-k'ing a namespace in neko/android/nrepl/emacs
15:46	kenrestivo	how would one go about debugging/tracing nrepl-related weirdness?
15:47	justin_smith	kenrestivo: was the jvm spawned in a director that has since been deleted?
15:47	justin_smith	*directory
15:47	kenrestivo	interesting. it's not a jvm, it's dalvik :-/
15:48	justin_smith	that is my first guess when random commands complain about no such directory
15:48	kenrestivo	thanks
15:49	kenrestivo	in this case, i want to first figure out who is throwing that error: the dvm, nrepl server, what exactly? it's unclear whether it's the host or client complaining
15:50	cYmen	justin_smith: crap, now I need to look at core async to understand your om example ;)
15:51	justin_smith	cYmen: the core.async part is a stub, that will be filled in when we get to the user interaction part
15:51	kenrestivo	aha! it's the dvm, complaining the class isn't there. i can now track this down.
15:51	cYmen	hm...i really have no strategy when it comes to understanding clojure codebases
15:52	justin_smith	cYmen: that codebase isn't exemplary either, sorry
15:52	justin_smith	there is some noise in it, as you have seen
15:52	cbp	use a repl and break things :-P
15:52	cYmen	I'll go check out some docs for httpkit and om and such...
15:52	justin_smith	yeah, try corner cases that you think should fail, corner cases you think should succeed, etc.
15:53	cYmen	Hm...I wouldn't even know what to call from the repl ^^
15:53	justin_smith	cYmen: remember that if you connect to that project's nrepl server you can run clojure.repl/doc and/or clojure.repl/source on any function to see what is up with it
15:54	justin_smith	in that particular case, try modifying one function call, see if it changes the thing you expect it to change
15:56	kenrestivo	one more dumb java/compiler question: "CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Failed to load generated class foo.bar.baz$eval10734., compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:2:1)" what's with the $eval10734?
15:57	justin_smith	kenrestivo: something that clojure evaluated generated some class, that is an autogenerated name
15:57	cYmen	alright, baby steps
15:57	justin_smith	if it were an fn it would have $fn instead of $eval I think
15:58	cbp	,(fn [])
15:58	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval25$fn__26 sandbox$eval25$fn__26@d085f8>
15:58	cbp	,(fn [])
15:58	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval51$fn__52 sandbox$eval51$fn__52@af84e>
15:58	kenrestivo	hmm, but there's no fn in this case
15:58	justin_smith	ahh, it has $eval$fn...
15:58	kenrestivo	smells like ns macro magick
15:59	justin_smith	kenrestivo: could be, but I think other things make classes too
15:59	kenrestivo	i think i'll just brute force this. strip that ns down to nothing, and gradually start adding in fns to the ns to see which one breaks everything
16:00	justin_smith	another option is a binary search
16:00	justin_smith	is the error in the top or bottom half of the ns...
16:00	justin_smith	etc.
16:00	kenrestivo	good point. that $eval in top level smells to me like it's in the ns declaration or something
16:10	gfredericks	,(let [xs (->> (iterate inc 0) (take 30) (map #(/ 3 (- 8 %))))] (try (doall xs) (catch Throwable t xs)))
16:10	clojurebot	gfredericks: excusez-moi
16:10	gfredericks	&(let [xs (->> (iterate inc 0) (take 30) (map #(/ 3 (- 8 %))))] (try (doall xs) (catch Throwable t xs)))
16:10	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! catch is bad!
16:11	hiredman	,(+ 1 2)
16:11	clojurebot	3
16:11	llasram	&(try true (catch Throwable false))
16:11	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! catch is bad!
16:11	justin_smith	llasram: you missed the binding of the Throwable
16:12	llasram	&(try true (catch Throwable _ false))
16:12	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! catch is bad!
16:12	bbloom	catch is bad?
16:12	llasram	&Throwable
16:12	lazybot	⇒ java.lang.Throwable
16:12	bbloom	why?
16:12	clojurebot	why is the ram gone
16:12	bbloom	sigh
16:12	llasram	~botsmack
16:12	clojurebot	clojurebot evades successfully!
16:13	bbloom	~botsmack
16:13	clojurebot	Owww!
16:13	bbloom	got him.
16:13	hiredman	bbloom: you can setup infinite loops using try and catch that are difficult to break out of
16:13	llasram	&catch
16:13	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! catch is bad!
16:13	llasram	Soooo bad
16:14	bbloom	hiredman: doesn't the jvm support timeouts?
16:14	amalloy	bbloom: not without a little cooperation from the code being interrupted
16:14	llasram	clojurebot: catch is bad
16:14	clojurebot	Roger.
16:14	hiredman	bbloom: it is all in the literature (by which I mean #clojure logs from 3 or 4 years ago)
16:14	tuft	Interrupted
16:14	amalloy	mostly timeout support is that syscalls can throw InterruptedException, and you're required to declare how you deal with it
16:14	bbloom	sigh. the VM would be the new OS, if only the the VM was a half decent OS
16:15	amalloy	so if clojurebot tried to run code that caught InterruptedException by continuing to process...
16:15	tuft	hah, indeed
16:15	tuft	ClojureOS
16:16	bbloom	amalloy: surely InterruptedException is just being polite
16:16	bbloom	if the thread doesn't behave, you murder it instantly, no?
16:16	amalloy	there's no safe way to murder a thread
16:16	hiredman	that is how thread murdering sort of works
16:16	technomancy	there's no safe way to murder anything
16:16	amalloy	because like, what if it took a mutex before you kill it, etc
16:17	amalloy	see, eg, the docs for java.lang.Thread/stop
16:17	technomancy	you'll always leave some hint leading back to you
16:17	bbloom	amalloy: yeah, this is why the VM is a bad OS
16:17	hiredman	bbloom: this problem seems to exist even at the os level http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2084830/kill-thread-in-pthread-library/2084849#2084849
16:17	bbloom	when you kill an OS process, the kernel releases it's resources
16:17	bbloom	hiredman: ok then let me extend my statement: this is why threads are bad processes
16:18	bbloom	and that's why our VMs are bad OSes and our OSes are bad OSes too
16:18	gfredericks	is erlang good at this?
16:19	bbloom	gfredericks: i dunno enough erlang, but i'd guess so, what with the crash-only design and all
16:19	gfredericks	why can't we all just erlang
16:19	bbloom	in general, i think "finally" is a bad idea
16:20	bbloom	all dynamic-wind related resource management strategies are a bad idea really
16:20	hiredman	gfredericks: because it has plenty of other warts
16:20	TimMc	I read that as "cash-only design".
16:20	technomancy	gfredericks: but we can.. if you just believe.
16:20	technomancy	gfredericks: the erlang was inside your heart all along!
16:20	bbloom	TimMc: mo' exceptions, mo' problems
16:20	hiredman	gfredericks: this particular one is a pain when writing sandboxes for irc bots, but hasn't been elsewhere, so I am accepting this wart to avoid the others
16:20	blake__	Is it possible to use a clojars library from a repl? If I want to try it out? Or do I need a project with dependencies?
16:21	gfredericks	hiredman: any easy examples?
16:21	amalloy	$google lein try
16:21	lazybot	[rkneufeld/lein-try · GitHub] https://github.com/rkneufeld/lein-try
16:21	blake__	amalloy: doh! Thanks! I forgot about "try"...
16:21	amalloy	that's for blake__ - i guess in context it could have been about try/catch
16:21	gfredericks	blake__: I worked up an add-dep macro using pomegranate I think
16:21	hiredman	gfredericks: http://www.unlimitednovelty.com/2011/07/trouble-with-erlang-or-erlang-is-ghetto.html is my go to blog post, in large part because it was written by a guy who was gung ho about erlang to start with
16:22	technomancy	"Oh, I see your problem, right here." points to gauge http://p.hagelb.org/erlangs.png
16:22	gfredericks	blake__: https://github.com/fredericksgary/repl-utils/blob/master/src/com/gfredericks/repl.clj#L9-15
16:22	blake__	gfredericks: Also cool, thanks!
16:23	hiredman	I am not terrible fond of actors as a primitive to start with
16:23	hiredman	if you compose actors you get something that isn't an actor
16:23	bbloom	hiredman: yeah, i think that we'll discover that actors are to turing machines what ??? is to the lambda calculus
16:24	gfredericks	lambda calculuses
16:24	gfredericks	pronounced "calc you loosies"
16:25	gfredericks	hiredman: I did not understand the first section at all; "Erlang has this feature. There's pretty much universal disagreement that having the feature is a huge limitation." ?
16:25	hiredman	orleans is interesting, they talk about being an actor system, but they are not very strict actors, e.g. you can have multiple instances of the same actor when you don't care about exclusivity for that actor
16:26	hiredman	gfredericks: well, that part is outdated now I think, erlang has maps now
16:27	gfredericks	oh well
16:27	hiredman	to be fair, it looks like the hardware side is trending towards share nothing memory per core, so some kind of future actor system could take advantage of that
16:28	hiredman	per cpu, maybe shared per core
16:28	bbloom	i mean "shared nothing" at the CPU level is kinda splitting hairs
16:28	bbloom	they share a bus, and therefore share memory attached to that bus
16:28	gfredericks	hiredman: looks like a pretty comprehensive essay though, thanks
16:28	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
16:28	bbloom	whether it's registers or hard disks or anything in between, they share something
16:29	hiredman	bbloom: sure
16:29	technomancy	gfredericks: it's a mix of stuff that makes sense and stuff that's just dumb
16:30	technomancy	like ... complaining about no nil or complaining about no let is just stupid
16:30	justin_smith	bbloom: well the question is whether idiomatic and normal usage of the lang / lib / whatever assumes sharing, right? Because I can totally just open up the right file under proc to read a random program's memory if I have the perms
16:30	technomancy	but the stuff about strings and the standard library is right-on
16:30	justin_smith	hell, even write to it
16:30	bbloom	justin_smith: sure. i think that shared memory is an extremely useful abstraction & even in distributed contexts it's an abstraction that should be preferred when you can get away with it
16:31	bbloom	ie unbounded non-determinism may exist, but i don't want to have to bound it myself every time
16:31	technomancy	gfredericks: and he doesn't even mention the lack of higher-order functions or the fact that the shell isn't a real rep
16:31	technomancy	repl
16:32	bbloom	justin_smith: if you've got a reliable-enough and low-enough-latency datacenter, you might as well treat an entire cluster of machines as a single shared memory node :-)
16:32	hiredman	hah
16:32	bbloom	you laugh, but this crazy thing exists: http://research.google.com/pubs/pub38125.html
16:33	justin_smith	bbloom: if you grant that the datastructures will be immutible, I can consider it
16:33	bbloom	justin_smith: yeah, look what google has managed to accomplish on the crazy big table quasi-sql model
16:33	bbloom	imagine what you could do with immutable underpinnings
16:34	tuft	wow cool http://sicpinclojure.com/
16:34	hiredman	bbloom: I would consider a distributed database as something different from "treat an entire cluster of machines as a single shared memory node" but I can see how you could make the case that that is what it is
16:34	bbloom	hiredman: this also exists: http://terracotta.org/products/bigmemory
16:34	bbloom	and works better than you'd think lol
16:35	bbloom	it's basically virtual memory implemented with massive page sizes & backed by a machine cluster
16:35	bbloom	again, imagine with functional underpinnings
16:35	tuft	hah, some spam generator puked itself in the second comment http://sicpinclojure.com/?q=sicp/front-matter
16:35	enquora	anyone using clara-rules for production code (no pun intended)? is it the best choice if clojurescript is needed too?
16:36	hiredman	I was just reading some paper about doing shared memories using pointer swizzling for c programs
16:37	hiredman	maybe this one ftp://ftp.cs.utexas.edu/pub/garbage/swizz.ps
16:49	gfredericks	technomancy: I don't understand no let -- what's not local about erlang's variables?
16:50	jwm	anyone using node.js for cljs nrepl?
16:57	gfredericks	oh I'd forgotten that atoms are syntactically identical to reserved words
16:57	gfredericks	(inc lisp)
16:57	lazybot	⇒ 2
16:58	nightfly	(inc inc)
16:58	lazybot	⇒ 8
16:58	gfredericks	(ink deck)
17:07	gfredericks	I'm about to write a wrapper around the scheduledThreadPool's .scheduleWithFixedDelay that lets you have a state arg/return values from the fn
17:08	poppingtonic	Hello people :)
17:08	technomancy	gfredericks: and the part about "its GC isn't as good as Azul's" ... um, okay? raise your hand if you are actually deploying on Azul?
17:08	poppingtonic	Does 1.6 break anything from 1.5.1?
17:08	hiredman	gfredericks: :( for why?
17:08	technomancy	"It's not a general purpose language" -> http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/09/06
17:08	gfredericks	hiredman: sometimes it's useful to know what happened in the past?
17:10	gfredericks	hiredman: it's like using loop; but with a thread pool managing the loopiness
17:10	hiredman	gfredericks: keeping that state in a global atom (under a namespaced keyword or whatever) means you can poke it via the repl in a running system
17:11	gfredericks	oh I might expose it as well; but the function I write for the thread pool doesn't need to know it's exposed
17:12	ambrosebs	poppingtonic: there is a change log in the clojure repo
17:12	gfredericks	poppingtonic: that's kind of a squishy question
17:13	gfredericks	,(->> (range 5000) (set) (take 5))
17:13	clojurebot	(0 2721 893 2558 920)
17:13	gfredericks	&(->> (range 5000) (set) (take 5))
17:13	lazybot	⇒ (0 1024 2048 3072 4096)
17:14	arubincloud	Or are they programmed to ignore each other?
17:14	hiredman	http://awelonblue.wordpress.com/2012/10/21/local-state-is-poison/
17:15	DaReaper5	I am getting the runtime exception "Map literal must contain an even number of forms" from http://pastebin.com/hmqvWRam
17:15	DaReaper5	i do not understand why
17:15	DaReaper5	If I remove the third "~@(if" it goes away, but again i dont understand why
17:15	stuartsierra	poppingtonic: Hashing in collections changed, which may lead to breakage in code that made assumptions about the order of keys in maps or sets.
17:16	bbloom	+1 on the local state is poison thing
17:17	poppingtonic	ambrosebs: cloning
17:17	poppingtonic	stuartsierra: interesting. any hints as to what drove that choice?
17:17	stuartsierra	DaReaper5: ~@ doesn't get expanded until after the map is read.
17:17	stuartsierra	poppingtonic: I don't remember. There's probably something on dev.clojure.org or JIRA.
17:18	DaReaper5	stuartsierra: sorry, i dont understand why that would cause the error?
17:18	bbloom	poppingtonic: stuartsierra: that behavior just falls out naturally from the way it gets parsed
17:18	amalloy	DaReaper5: your map literal has 9 elements in it, three of which look like: ~@(if ...)
17:19	bbloom	'{~@x} parses as (clojure.core/syntax-quote (some.magic/map (clojure.core/unquote-splicing x)))
17:19	amalloy	what those expand to doesn't matter, because compilation doesn't get that far: the map literal with 9 elements is abandoned
17:19	michaniskin	DaReaper5: those ~@(if ...) expressions could return nil, and there are 3 of them and they don't have "else" clauses, so {"luid" x "type_code" y nil nil nil} has an odd number of things in it
17:19	hiredman	bbloom: it is so easy to forget that closed over state is still state
17:19	bbloom	hiredman: yup. and all state is global!
17:19	tim	basically, using ~@ outside of a seq/vector shouldn't be done
17:19	bbloom	hiredman: it's not global state that's bad, it's unregulated global access
17:20	michaniskin	DaReaper5: disregard, i was being dumb
17:20	bbloom	hiredman: but the subtly there is that global read-access is vital for debugging purposes :-)
17:20	DaReaper5	amalloy: michaniskin would you suggest i use a merge then to fix it?
17:20	bbloom	but also super useful for lots of other things too
17:20	DaReaper5	(goes to try)
17:20	hiredman	bbloom: unregulated global mutation
17:20	bbloom	hiredman: yup
17:20	bbloom	brb
17:20	amalloy	DaReaper5: that'd be one workable solution
17:20	DaReaper5	amalloy: ahhh i getit
17:21	DaReaper5	amalloy: if there where only two ~@(if then even if they return null there are two of them and the key would be null: null
17:21	DaReaper5	but with 3 there is an issue
17:46	mmitchell	what's the best library for reading an html string and providing a way to replace an attribute within an element, then re-render as an html string?
17:46	mmitchell	I think I was looking at something called hickory a while ago, or maybe enlive?
17:50	stuartsierra	enlive
17:59	aka	mmitchell: there is also https://github.com/Raynes/laser and https://github.com/weavejester/crouton
17:59	blake__	Why would someone take out a Google ad to advertise their (open-source, freely available) Clojure library?
18:00	technomancy	blake__: sometimes google hands out free adwords credits
18:00	technomancy	I ran a campaign for Leiningen for a few weeks on a $100 voucher they sent me
18:00	blake__	Ahh. "One weird library that Rich Hickey doesn't want you to know about."? That's kinda funny.
18:00	technomancy	that one wasn't mine =)
18:01	aka	blake__: hahah that sounds sketch
18:01	blake__	It's for "proteus", which allows local, mutable variables.
18:01	aka	did you by chance see what lib it was?
18:01	kenrestivo	huh, this is a fun one: https://www.refheap.com/74124 that's what's getting spammed every second from android back to emacs via nrepl
18:01	DaReaper5	Anyone know how to convert a map to an hstore ?
18:01	technomancy	DaReaper5: yeah it's kinda crappy
18:01	DaReaper5	i am using korma atm
18:01	kenrestivo	sorry, every 30ms
18:01	technomancy	oh, actually not so bad
18:02	technomancy	DaReaper5: https://github.com/heroku/buildkits/blob/master/src/buildkits/db.clj#L11
18:02	DaReaper5	Can i just ::hstore?
18:02	technomancy	oh, no idea how korma does it
18:07	mmitchell	aka: thanks!
18:10	mmitchell	aka: laser does exactly what i want! :)
18:10	mmitchell	already working, nice
18:25	lemonodor	kenrestivo: you’re doing clojure on android? what are you making?
18:26	lemonodor	(i’ve been working on an AR.Drone speech interface for android)
18:27	kenrestivo	lemonodor: oh just playing around. was attempting to make some mods to this http://github.com/kenrestivo/spazradioapp
18:27	kenrestivo	i think this may be the dalvik or dex optimizing out a class that isn't called from anywhere else
18:28	lemonodor	ah i should have recognized your name; i bookmarked that to read over the code. i’m new to clojure and even newer to android.
18:28	kenrestivo	i can duplicate the problem by creating an empty ns
18:28	kenrestivo	lemonodor: i recognize yours too. you did a lisp blog that was fairly well known at one time?
18:29	lemonodor	yes, eons ago
18:31	kenrestivo	and this if-let nonsense appears to be no if-let present in whatever dalvik env that nrepl-default-err-handlr is trying to execute in
18:34	kenrestivo	lemonodor: well, welcome to clojure. hope you are having fun so far.
18:34	lemonodor	oh yeah, i love it.
18:35	aka	mmitchell: nice :)
18:48	jwm	I'm trying to transition from nodejs to clojure + http-kit hehe
18:49	jwm	so far having some bad success with lighttable
18:49	justin_smith	light table seems to have a few really nifty gee-whiz features but not be mature
18:49	justin_smith	not cranky and weird like emacs / vim, just immature
18:52	bob2	emacs is only cranky until you bring it its' tea and biscuits
18:52	bob2	and listen to its' stories about the war
18:52	justin_smith	heh
18:52	bob2	then it's all M-x cider-jack-in C-c C-t
18:52	justin_smith	but you do have to do things its way. It gets kind of pissed if you call a frame a window
18:53	bob2	back in emacs's day, we called a window a frame
18:53	bob2	also, get off emacs's lawn
18:55	DaReaper5	i have a simple issue but im probably getting tired, how do i convert this { :key1 "aValue" } into this: { "name" "key1" "value"
18:55	DaReaper5	"value" aValue" } **
18:56	DaReaper5	(pressed enter by acident)
18:57	DaReaper5	simplier question would be how to i iterate over values in a sequence, getting their keys and values
18:59	justin_smith	DaReaper5: you're gonna find this hilarious
18:59	justin_smith	,(keys {:a 0 :b 1 :c 2})
18:59	clojurebot	(:c :b :a)
18:59	justin_smith	,(values {:a 0 :b 1 :c 2})
18:59	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: values in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
18:59	justin_smith	err
18:59	justin_smith	,(vals {:a 0 :b 1 :c 2})
18:59	clojurebot	(2 1 0)
19:00	justin_smith	,(map identity {:a 0 :b 1 :c 2}) ; or even this, swap out some fn which takes a pair for identity
19:00	clojurebot	([:c 2] [:b 1] [:a 0])
19:01	DaReaper5	justin_smith: when i use map will the key and value be separate arguments?
19:01	justin_smith	nope, it will be a pair
19:01	DaReaper5	like (map (fn [k v]
19:01	justin_smith	first element key, second element val
19:01	justin_smith	like (map (fn [[k v]]
19:02	DaReaper5	kk
19:02	justin_smith	,(map (fn [[k v]] {:key k :value v}) {:a 0 :b 1 :c 2})
19:02	clojurebot	({:key :c, :value 2} {:key :b, :value 1} {:key :a, :value 0})
19:03	DaReaper5	justin_smith: so i can (map (fn [pair] {(key pair) (val pair}) pairs)
19:03	DaReaper5	hmm kk
19:03	DaReaper5	justin_smith: thanks alot
19:04	justin_smith	yeah, key and val also work
19:04	justin_smith	though I think the destructuring version is simpler
19:05	blake__	Trying to use jvm.tools.analyzer. I git cloned it, but when I "lein repl" (did "lein deps" already), I get errors from clojure/tools/nrepl (ack.clj, middleware.clj, server.clj) and complete/core.clj. They're all "reverence to" and "call to" {something} "can't be resolved."
19:05	justin_smith	(fn [[k v]] ...)
19:05	rasmusto	,(map key '((a b) (c d e) (f g)))
19:05	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry>
19:05	DaReaper5	i agree
19:05	justin_smith	rasmusto: I think key works on map entries
19:05	rasmusto	o ok, thought that was the case
19:05	justin_smith	well duh, that's what the exception says, but anyway
19:05	rasmusto	I misread part of the convo
19:06	DaReaper5	justin_smith: and with that im done for the day Cheers!
19:06	justin_smith	np
19:07	amalloy	blake__: you seem to have carefully stripped all meaningful information from the error message. paste a real error message to gist.github.com or refheap.com or something: maybe someone else can make more sense of it than you can
19:10	blake__	Sorry. https://www.refheap.com/74140
19:13	justin_smith	blake__: those are not errors, they are just reflection warnings
19:14	justin_smith	someone turned warn-on-reflection on
19:14	amalloy	blake__: those all basically don't matter. i don't know why warn-on-reflection is on, but it's flagging potential performance problems
19:14	justin_smith	everything will work as normal, but if you type hint some of those things, the warnings will go away and the code will be faster :)
19:15	blake__	This is just a git clone of jvm.tools.analyzer. I was trying to get to the ast function.
19:15	blake__	er, macro
19:15	justin_smith	that should be fine
19:15	justin_smith	they just have some warnings on
19:16	blake__	Well, I couldn't get to it, so the obvious messages were the first place I thought to check.
19:16	justin_smith	what did you try?
19:16	blake__	I started with (ast [1]) because I saw that example from an early version of the code.
19:17	blake__	Then just "ast"
19:17	blake__	"Unable to resolve symbol: ast..."
19:17	blake__	Then went down from the top of analyzer.clj.
19:17	justin_smith	you need to require the ns that it is in
19:17	blake__	Maybe it's not loaded.
19:17	justin_smith	nrepl does not autoload any part of an ns
19:17	justin_smith	*project
19:17	blake__	Right, I started with (ns ...)
19:18	justin_smith	no, that defines an ns
19:18	justin_smith	you need to require it
19:18	blake__	yeah, that throws me a lot...
19:18	justin_smith	(ns ...) means "hey, this ns now exists"
19:18	justin_smith	(require ...) means "find the definition for this ns"
19:19	blake__	So, when I type "(require 'clojure.jvm.tools.analyzer)" there's a lag, and I get a nil, but I haven't loaded anything?
19:20	justin_smith	now you can do (clojure.jvm.tools.analyzer/... )
19:20	justin_smith	you probably wanted an :as in there so you won't need to type in the full ns
19:20	justin_smith	(require '[clojure.jvm.tools.analyzer :as analyzer]) perhaps
19:20	justin_smith	then you can do (analyzer/whatever ...)
19:22	blake__	I gotta have the '...or it tries to eval clojure.jvm.etc...
19:22	justin_smith	yes, that is normal
19:22	blake__	phew OK, thanks, justin_smith. That works.
19:22	justin_smith	np
19:26	antonv	Sorry, I have quit for a moment. So is there a way to load newly downloaded dependencies without restarting nREPL?
19:27	tuft_	antonv: i believe so, but can't remember which project. something gives you lein within the repl
19:27	cbp	$google clojure alembic
19:27	lazybot	[pallet/alembic · GitHub] https://github.com/pallet/alembic
19:29	tuft_	cool
19:37	antonv	tuft: cbp: thanks
19:42	Raynes	arrdem: I don't think we could possibly be more musically incompatible.
19:53	michaniskin	i'm using classlojure, but cannot dynamically change the classpath for the classloader created by classlojure. is there a way to accomplish this?
19:54	blake__	justin_smith: If I'm doing this in a project.clj, would I use "dependencies" rather than "requires"?
19:55	blake__	Wait, there's not a big connection, is there.
19:56	blake__	Dependencies in the project make it available to the cljs, which then use require?
19:56	michaniskin	blake__: that's correct
19:57	michaniskin	blake__: require allows you to refer to vars in other namespaces
19:57	blake__	Thanks, michaniskin. Dunno why I'm struggling with it.
19:57	michaniskin	blake__: dependencies makes it so that those namespaces are on the classpath
19:58	michaniskin	blake__: so they can be require'd
19:58	blake__	Got it. (I hope.) Thanks.
20:02	amalloy	michaniskin: if you want a different classloader, you can use the lower-level constructs like eval-in, instead of the high-level function classlojure
20:03	amalloy	build a classloader however you want, either on your own or with classlojure functions, and then pass it to eval-in
20:05	michaniskin	amalloy: is there a classloader you'd recommend?
20:05	michaniskin	amalloy: i get an exception that tells me the classloader is not dynamic
20:09	michaniskin	amalloy: nm i think i have a plan
20:11	kenrestivo	so, dumb nrepl question: when i do (clojure.core/load-file "/somewhere/foo.clj") what actually gets executed and where?
20:12	kenrestivo	does nrepl intercept that and do some magick? or does it get executed in the target vm. if the latter, that's impossible, because on android that file doesn't exist but the operation succeeds (for some files)
20:12	technomancy	kenrestivo: it's on the target
20:13	scottj	antonv: pomegranate, with latest-clojure-libraries.el if you use emacs.
20:13	technomancy	there are ways to make that smarter using nrepl ops, but if load-file is what is being called, it's not going to be that smart
20:13	kenrestivo	technomancy: wow. then i'm baffled as to how it can find a file on a filesystem it doesn't even have
20:13	kenrestivo	and open it, and compile it. i suspect magick.
20:14	kenrestivo	context is: some files it succeds on, some files it ENOENT's on. the files are right next to each other, in the same directory path.
20:15	hiredman	kenrestivo: I suspect it would load it from the classpath, I know load does, but I haven't used load-file in a long time
20:16	amalloy	hiredman: it looks to me like load-file is a compiler special form, implemented as Compiler/loadFile(String), and that uses FileInputStream - no classpath tomfoolery
20:17	amalloy	perhaps the android runtime handles it differently
20:18	hiredman	oh
20:18	hiredman	hmmm
20:18	hiredman	I know there is some nrepl middleware that will load files up as strings and pass them to the compiler that way, I forget if it actually intercepts load-file calls
20:19	technomancy	iirc this is basically a textbook case for why to use nrepl ops
20:19	technomancy	because they can be intercepted without shenanigans
20:19	hiredman	it doesn't intercept
20:19	hiredman	it is an op
20:19	hiredman	https://github.com/clojure/tools.nrepl/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/nrepl/middleware/load_file.clj
20:20	kenrestivo	hiredman: thanks, that looks like it
20:21	hiredman	kenrestivo: seems unlikely
20:21	hiredman	kenrestivo: it doesn't futz with stuff, so if you typing (load-file ...) in to the repl, that wouldn't effect it
20:21	kenrestivo	then i'm stuck. i have no idea how i can run (clojure.core/load-file "/tmp/foo.clj") and it will succeed when there is no such file on the target
20:21	hiredman	are you sure you are connected to the target?
20:22	kenrestivo	yep
20:22	hiredman	why?
20:22	clojurebot	why is startup slow is busy compiling the `for` macroexpansion
20:22	kenrestivo	well, i'm sure i'm connected. i'm not necessarily sure that the code i'm executing is executing on the target
20:22	hiredman	so check?
20:22	kenrestivo	but it seems likely. i'm looking at the packet traces of nrepl
20:23	hiredman	ok, so you see packets being sent to the target?
20:23	kenrestivo	and emacs is sending d2:id1:92:op4:eval7:session36:b7a2b815-c36a-49ea-9694-ea8fa189adb24:code135:(clojure.core/load-file 3"
20:24	kenrestivo	and is getting back OKAY, then WRTER...........H8......d2:ex35:class java.io.FileNotFoundException2:id1:97:root-ex31:class libcore.io.ErrnoException7: ...
20:24	hiredman	so it is getting back an exception
20:24	kenrestivo	which implies to me that it's executing on the target
20:24	hiredman	and it is not getting back an exception for /tmp/foo.clj ?
20:25	kenrestivo	nope.
20:26	hiredman	how do you know /tmp/foo.clj doesn't exist?
20:26	hiredman	(.exists (java.io.File. "/tmp/foo.clj"))
20:27	kenrestivo	true
20:27	hiredman	so it does exist
20:27	kenrestivo	which is bizarre, because it does NOT exist on the target
20:27	hiredman	(slurp "/tmp/foo.clj") will give you a string of the contents
20:27	kenrestivo	it exists on my host
20:28	kenrestivo	it will. hmm
20:28	hiredman	kenrestivo: how do you know it does not exist?
20:28	kenrestivo	and it does
20:28	kenrestivo	will adb shell in and look
20:29	kenrestivo	wat!??
20:29	lazybot	kenrestivo: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?
20:29	kenrestivo	it does exist
20:29	kenrestivo	now i'm even more confused
20:30	kenrestivo	hiredman: wow that's odd. it does in fact exist on the target vm, in that path, somehow. how exactly, i have no idea
20:30	clojurebot	Excuse me?
20:31	hiredman	kenrestivo: so why does it exist?
20:31	technomancy	http://p.hagelb.org/mystery.gif =)
20:32	kenrestivo	i have a few ideas. will look
20:35	kenrestivo	because i have a debian installation on my android device, with the same directory structure as my desktop, and my source files in there... but an earlier git version that does not have that particular source file.
20:35	kenrestivo	solveded
20:36	kenrestivo	got too damn fancy. C-k is not supposed to ever work on a remote android target. the fact that it did for some files was weird, not the fact that it didn't for others. not working is the normal operating mode for load-file or C-k
20:37	kenrestivo	hiredman: technomancy: thanks for helping me untangle my way out of the trap i created for myself
20:37	hiredman	if cider user the load-file middleware for C-k it could work
20:41	amalloy	if cider used load-file middleware to load files from my desktop instead of the env i'm connected to for C-c C-k, that would be like the first feature that might get me excited enough to switch from swank
20:44	hiredman	amalloy: nah, they'll just pick some random other key binding for it and do it in a way that breaks half the time
20:53	kenrestivo	i've held out this long with nrepl and plan to do so more or less indefinitely
20:57	pdk	sounds like a forkin' good plan!
21:07	gwz	hey, if you are doing walk function, is it possible to get the next value during an iteration
21:09	hiredman	no
21:20	gfredericks	hiredman: I'm having a hard time interpreting your IRC toot unless s/asking/answering/
21:21	gfredericks	for some reason it's become important to me to know which way that was supposed to go
21:22	hiredman	gfredericks: oh, well most of my lines in my recent exchange with kenrestivo ended with question marks
21:23	kenrestivo	and, just for the benefit of the aether, people googling irc logs, and to shout into the void: something in the clojure-android build toolchain will remove namespaces which are "dead" and not referenced elsewhere in the codebase
21:24	gfredericks	hiredman: I was wondering if it was something like that; and here I could have figured that out myself by scrolling up a page :/
21:24	Frozenlock	kenrestivo: Oh wow... I would have wondered wtf was going on
21:24	kenrestivo	so, (in-ns 'foobar) will not have any fn's, refs, atoms, or what have you, if the foobar ns is considered dead code
21:24	kenrestivo	that's what started me on this journey of discovery... let's see (checks logs)... 3 hours ago
21:25	Frozenlock	kenrestivo: the other I had a similar journey, only to end up realizing that clj-time doesn't work well on Android. :-(
21:25	Frozenlock	*the other day
21:26	kenrestivo	yeah, i'm using the android-specific stuff, java.text.SimpleDateFormat java.util.Locale java.util.TimeZone
21:27	kenrestivo	pulling in yet another library is something i avoid in an app that is 8mb and climbing and all it does is play streams off the internet
21:27	Frozenlock	btw, would you know if a clojure app is faster on linux/java, or on android? (say for an AllWinner A10 or something like it)
21:28	kenrestivo	Frozenlock: https://github.com/kenrestivo/spazradioapp/blob/master/src/clojure/org/spaz/radio/schedule.clj
21:28	amalloy	my understanding is that, up to experimental error, everything is slower on android than elsewhere
21:29	Frozenlock	amalloy: thanks. It 'felt' that way, but I wanted to have another input.
21:29	hiredman	gfredericks: dakrone told me I was a practitioner of maieutics once
21:29	gfredericks	,(->> ["a" "z" "c"] sort last) ; how to do this with fewer logs?
21:29	clojurebot	"z"
21:30	hiredman	gfredericks: reverse the sort?
21:30	gfredericks	hiredman: logs not n's
21:30	gfredericks	it's a linear algorithm
21:30	gfredericks	easy to do with ugly code via reduce & compare
21:30	gfredericks	just seemed strange to have to resort to that
21:31	hiredman	use a sorted data structure to begin with?
21:31	gfredericks	,(->> ["a" "z" "c"] (reduce #(if (neg? (compare %1 %2)) %2 %1)))
21:31	clojurebot	"z"
21:32	hiredman	maybe one of those fancy trees in contrib
21:32	gfredericks	they'll be in a map, so I'd have to go find a lib that has a sorted-by-function-of-vals map
21:32	gfredericks	I'll take that as a "no, it's not easy" :)
21:32	amalloy	gfredericks: i mean, you can write it once, and then it's easy for everyone else forever
21:32	hiredman	gfredericks: you want multiple indices (maps) instead of a single one
21:33	gfredericks	no I need it in clojure.core right now hold on while I make a pull request
21:33	hiredman	use derby and java jdbc and make sure to use indices on the right columns
21:33	kenrestivo	amalloy: it's the launch that's super slow. execution is, i'm told, no faster in re java on dalvik than on a jvm, modulo type hints and other optimizations
21:34	kenrestivo	s/faster/slower/
21:35	kenrestivo	amalloy: some of the issues were discussed here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NUI07y1SlQ
21:35	kenrestivo	might have been in the Q&A tho
21:51	hiredman	huh https://github.com/clojure/java.internal.invoke
21:54	gfredericks	is there any pattern between libs named java.* vs jvm.*?
21:54	hiredman	gfredericks: brosa does one, halloway does the other?
21:55	Jaood	;)
21:56	gfredericks	looks like the only jvm.* is jvm.tools.analyzer
21:56	gfredericks	which has only ambrose in the recent commit log
21:56	hiredman	oh well
21:56	gfredericks	fun fact: jvm.tools.analyzer != tools.analyzer.jvm
21:56	hiredman	ah, no wonder
21:57	gfredericks	perhaps someday we can invent meanings for even more permutations of those words
21:57	hiredman	toolsanalyzerjvm..
21:58	gfredericks	(inc hiredman)
21:58	lazybot	⇒ 40
22:10	antonv	quick poll: what IDE do you use?
22:10	antonv	I tried CIDER and LightTable, lookin for better options
22:10	bodie_	I'm using Emacs Live and it's quite nice
22:11	xeqi	antonv: what would make it better?
22:11	bodie_	in particular, the in-flight completion, command suggestions (including substring matches e.g. "jack" matches cider-jack-in)
22:11	bodie_	also comes with lots of bundled goodies
22:12	bodie_	xeqi, I was going to use LightTable until I noticed that it doesn't have current Leiningen compatibility.
22:12	bob2	emacs
22:12	bodie_	Emacs Live plays _really_ nice with lein
22:13	Jaood	antonv: check out cursive if you want a real "IDE"
22:14	bodie_	why use a "real IDE" when Emacs is already built from the ground up around Lisps?
22:14	bodie_	everything you need is either in Leiningen, lein bundles, or Emacs and its bundles
22:14	Jaood	maybe IntelliJ is his thing
22:14	bodie_	possible
22:14	bodie_	seems overwrought for clojure
22:15	antonv	xeqi: in CIDER cmpletion doesnt' work for me, no hints for function arguments
22:15	antonv	I have tried inspector - problems there too
22:16	antonv	in LightTable other problems
22:16	bodie_	I actually came here to ask about classy Clojure programming -- newish to the language (so don't take my advice.) I'm finding it really complicated and weird and I'd like to know if there are any good docs not on WHAT it is as much as how and when to use it, and why
22:16	bodie_	i.e., deftype, defrecord, etc
22:16	antonv	I think I would like EmacsLive, but I already have my .emacs configuration, how to use them together?
22:17	bodie_	you can put your stuff into a personal bundle. it backs up your existing .emacs when you install it using their install script
22:17	bodie_	but a word of warning, emacs is .... weird and different if you're not used to it
22:17	bodie_	but you prolly know that
22:18	bodie_	I mean, we're in #clojure right
22:19	pterygota	yeah i've moved my personal configuration to the emacs live setup and it's working fine
22:20	bodie_	oh nvm he has a personal emacs setup, so why am I telling him emacs is weird
22:20	pterygota	use the instructions for creating a custom live pack with your existing configs in it
22:20	antonv	bodie_: I need my Emacs config active, not backed up in other dir
22:21	bodie_	right, can put it into a personal subpack
22:21	antonv	because I use emacs not only for Clojure coding, but of other things too
22:21	pterygota	yeah it's active
22:21	antonv	bodie_: subpack? any hints on that?
22:21	pterygota	steps are well described in the emacs-live readme
22:22	pterygota	and in the the readme in the user-template-pack directory
22:23	antonv	pterygota: OK thanks. I would be more natural if EmacsLive was a subpack of my config than other way around...
22:24	bodie_	yeah, it's kind of opinionated / dominating lol
22:24	antonv	:)
22:24	pterygota	yeah i kind of agree antonv but i like it enough and now that it's set up i basically can do the same things i used to
22:25	pterygota	also changed my package-user-dir to install inside of my personal live-pack so basically the .emacs.d directory belongs entirely to emacs live now and everything custom happens inside the personal live-pack
22:27	pterygota	that way i can just git pull to the .emacs.d in order to update emacs-live from github
22:28	antonv	pterygota: how does it work with other package managers? I have various emacs packages installed (paredit, ect)
22:29	pterygota	i started over and reinstalled everything after setting my user-package-dir to a directory within the live-pack i made for myself
22:29	pterygota	so it works fine with other package managers
22:29	pterygota	i just did that to simplify the process of updating emacs-live, so now really everything custom is in my live-pack including my package archives
22:30	pterygota	but i'm pretty sure emacs-live has its own paredit setup
22:31	antonv	pterygota: thanks for the info
22:32	pterygota	no problemo
22:38	bodie_	anyone have suggestions for a resource to learn about deftypes / etc besides the docs? I'm not confused about how they work or how to use them, but why and when
22:39	bob2	Programming Clojure has stuff about it
22:39	bob2	tldr for java interop
22:39	bodie_	hm
22:39	Frozenlock	bodie_: http://vimeo.com/53223938
22:40	Cr8	http://cemerick.com/2011/07/05/flowchart-for-choosing-the-right-clojure-type-definition-form/
22:40	arrdem	Raynes: lolz... it's gonna take a while before my collection stabilizes
22:41	bodie_	thanks Frozenlock
22:52	Raynes	arrdem: <3
22:52	Raynes	We both have Owl City plays!
22:52	Raynes	So there's that!
22:53	arrdem	Raynes: I mainly shuffle my collection...
22:53	arrdem	Raynes: so the next two months are gonna be a random walk through my tastes in no order
22:54	Raynes	arrdem: I've never met anyone else who does that.
22:54	Raynes	It's what I do as well.
22:54	Raynes	Everyone else is playlists and radio and crap.
22:54	Raynes	I just want to hear my favorite stuff on repeat...
22:54	Raynes	Occasionally explore to find new music, but not constantly...
22:54	Raynes	I can't like music until I've accepted it and appreciated it for a period of time.
22:58	arrdem	eh... I've enjoyed spotify radio as an exploratory tool..
22:59	arrdem	but ultimately I'll just take what I liked and buy it for myself
23:01	arrdem	Raynes: yeah.. I'm kinda of the oppinion that if I'm not happy to hear it shuffle in, rm -rf
23:02	Raynes	arrdem: Oh, I certainly don't buy mp3s.
23:02	Raynes	I don't pirate though.
23:02	Raynes	I just use a streaming service.
23:02	Raynes	Any of spotify, google play, or rdio.
23:02	Raynes	All of them are totally cool with me.
23:02	Raynes	But yeah, radio is good when you actually want to explore.
23:02	arrdem	you should work harder to incur their wrath then :P
23:02	Raynes	But sometimes, and most of the time in fact, I just want to hear my good stuff, man.
23:03	arrdem	Spotify has been really nice... I just grab a radio station based on anamanaguchi and I'm golden
23:36	bodie_	Frozenlock, this video on polymorphism in clojure is exactly what I needed! awesome. much appreciated
23:41	Frozenlock	bodie_: You are very welcome. You should thank the guy speaking in the video :p
23:42	bodie_	:)