#clojure – 2014-03-18

2014-03-18

00:00	yuri_niyazov	But i am not sure how to to capture the result of doing a transient operation so that it's available in a subsequent execution of doseq body
00:01	amalloy	yuri_niyazov: you can't. you need to use some construct other than doseq if you want to pass results around
00:01	yuri_niyazov	maybe I can explain this better with some simpler code
00:02	yuri_niyazov	(doseq [:let [result (transient {})] a (range 1 10)] (assoc! result a (rand)))
00:03	yuri_niyazov	except that it doesn't work, because I have to use the result of the (assoc!) subsequently
00:04	amalloy	right. you need to use reduce, or loop, or recursion: something that lets you carry around state
00:04	amalloy	i also find it hard to believe you need a transient rather than just an ordinary persistent collection
00:06	yuri_niyazov	Yes, that part has been confirmed by profiling
00:06	yuri_niyazov	ah
00:06	yuri_niyazov	well, wtih-local-vars will work
00:08	amalloy	the only person in the world with enough expertise to use with-local-vars is rich hickey. if you want to mutate state, you have atoms
00:09	yuri_niyazov	Thank you for your input.
00:14	Raynes	ivan, amalloy: Oh. Shit.
00:14	ivan	:-)
00:14	Raynes	So that explains the crazy paste inflation.
00:14	Raynes	I'm incredibly dumb.
00:15	Raynes	I'll fix this soon.
00:15	Raynes	Not much I can do about the pastes though.
00:15	Raynes	I could delete anonymous forks, but that seems rather intrusive.
00:16	ivan	btw, crawlers will ignore robots.txt, don't rely on that
00:23	danielszmulewicz	Hi everyone! It's been bugging me for a while, but never was so important as to bother. But here it is: How do I redirect stdout for the jetty adapter? It prints messages in my terminal where I run the repl, I would like to redirect it to a file with the bulk of my logging (with the timbre library).
00:26	beamso	https://wiki.eclipse.org/Jetty/Feature/Jetty_Logging
00:26	beamso	it looks like either a jetty-logging.properties or a system property can configure jetty logging
00:27	danielszmulewicz	beamso: Awesome. Thanks.
00:27	danielszmulewicz	(inc beamso)
00:27	lazybot	⇒ 1
00:27	beamso	woohoo!
00:27	danielszmulewicz	:-)
00:44	yuri_niyazov	Why is calling var-set slower than mutating an atom?
01:13	vimuser21	whaa lol been wondering why my new code hasn't been woring, is there a way to remove a multi method?
01:14	vimuser21	saw some stuff that removes all symbols from the current name space…seems overkill
01:16	vimuser21	ah , google served me well, (ns-unmap ns 'multimethod)
01:54	chare	I need this book: https://leanpub.com/fp-oo
01:54	chare	someone buy me a copy please
01:59	sdegutis	chare: ok
01:59	chare	sdegutis you lying to me?
01:59	sdegutis	chare: I trust you'll do the right thing
01:59	sdegutis	chare: you've got good in you
01:59	chare	I don't understand what you mean by that
02:42	irctc	I have a vector of boolean values, as [true false true false] in a map, {:id 1 :alias "asd" :values [true false true false]}. Now I want to insert his record into postgres database, where values column is postgres array datatype. How can I do this task making a single query? can anyone help?
02:46	irctc	?
02:46	beamso	i would have no idea
02:46	beamso	have you tried doing it from java to give you an idea of what you have to do in clojure?
02:50	beamso	further reading tells me that you have to create the postgresql array using the classes in the driver jar
03:05	daniel_karlsson	I'm building a json api with liberator, and now looking around for tips on testing. Is Midje the way to go? Or any tips pointers to projects docs on the subject?
03:06	beamso	i just use the standard testing api :/
03:07	daniel_karlsson	that is what I have been playing with so far
04:15	augustl	daniel_karlsson: I prefer clojure.test, not a big fan of the midje infix stuff
07:38	jcromartie	gooooooooood morning
07:39	beamso	good evening
07:40	jcromartie	that's not how IRC time works
07:40	beamso	it's evening for me
07:40	jcromartie	http://thinkmoult.com/ugt.html
07:42	beamso	in all my years of irc i've never seen that before
07:42	jcromartie	maybe I'm the only one who has :)
07:48	clgv	ugt is useless anyway ;)
07:48	jcromartie	yeah really it is
07:52	aaronj1335	TIL how to render the proper greeting of the day on irc. thnx jcromartie
07:52	aaronj1335	it's like being back in the military again
07:54	jcromartie	I just thought it was "good morning" when you arrive, and "good night" when you leave anyway. No need to get too formal.
07:58	augustl	jcromartie: didn't know about ugt, thanks for the link :)
08:00	clgv	jcromartie: well you started noise with referencing a convention to avoid noise :P - but it's not as we were having a focused discussion in here anyway ;)
08:01	jcromartie	http://xkcd.com/
08:01	jcromartie	timely
08:01	jcromartie	UGT being a convention falling on the right-hand side :)
08:12	jph-	anyone else find it easier to write code inside out than outside in (ie thread-first)
08:14	jcromartie	jph-: certainly, I use -> all the time
08:14	mercwithamouth	yup
08:14	jcromartie	let also helps
08:14	jph-	im trying to use -> but it hurts my brain
08:14	jph-	heh
08:14	jph-	for all but simple examples
08:18	simon__	Hello! Im doing clojure koans, and I have a question about "Iteration can be used for repetition"
08:18	simon__	(take 2 (iterate (fn [x] x) :foo))
08:18	simon__	=> (:foo :foo)
08:18	simon__	Ofc
08:18	simon__	But
08:18	simon__	user=> (take 2 (iterate #(%) :foo))
08:18	simon__	IllegalArgumentException Wrong number of args passed to keyword: :foo clojure.lang.Keyword.throwArity (Keyword.java:92)
08:19	simon__	I dont understand, why wont my second shorthand anonymus function work when the first does?
08:19	jcromartie	#(%) returns a function will call its argument as a function
08:19	jcromartie	,(#(%) #(println "hi"))
08:19	clojurebot	hi\n
08:19	jph-	any tips for debugging ssl cert issues from clojure or do i need to dip into java for that?
08:19	jph-	sun.security.validator.ValidatorException: PKIX path building failed: sun
08:19	jcromartie	jph-: you need to add the cert to a truststore
08:20	jcromartie	jph-: I've just dealt with this
08:20	jph-	jcromartie, it's peculiar... my browser works fine
08:20	jph-	or maybe it's owned too
08:20	simon__	jcromartie: ah, ok.
08:20	jph-	!
08:20	simon__	Thanks.
08:21	jph-	why would by jdk 7 have an outdated trust store
08:21	jph-	hrmm
08:21	jph-	i've also dealt with this before.. it just seems peculiar
08:21	jph-	i'll hunt down the relevant stack overflow or bookmark
08:22	jcromartie	jph-: did you switch JDKs?
08:22	jph-	jcromartie, not to my knowledge
08:23	bore	Hello, a quick question. Is there a way to check if a string is valid EDN other than trying to read it and catching the exception?
08:23	jcromartie	jph-: what I'm asking is: did you connect to this host before? did anything change?
08:23	jcromartie	jph-: or is this failure happening the first time you've ever tried to connect to this host
08:23	jph-	i'm well versed in troubleshooting (used to do firewalls) so that's why im scratching my head
08:23	jph-	maybe something i did triggered something else
08:24	jph-	i'll have to poke around
08:24	jcromartie	jph-: there are certs that your browser trusts that the JVM does not
08:24	jph-	im connecting to https://btc-e.com/api/2/btc_usd/ticker which is fine in browser but is breaking in http-kit
08:24	jph-	i have sun jdk 7
08:24	jph-	i've got several things to check
08:25	jph-	heh
08:25	jph-	its a godaddy cert
08:25	jph-	so i need to see if that specific CA is also in jdk certstore
08:27	jcromartie	this cert is trusted in my OS X default JVM (1.6.0)
08:27	beamso	i'm using java 1.7 and it failed
08:27	clgv	jcromartie: how do you check this?
08:28	jcromartie	keytool -list -keystore /System/Library/Java/JavaVirtualMachines/1.6.0.jdk/Contents/Home/lib/security/cacerts \| grep '47:BE:AB:C9:22:EA:E8:0E:78:78:34:62:A7:9F:45:C2:54:FD:E6:8B'
08:28	clgv	jcromartie: I mean without trying to programmatically connect?
08:28	beamso	,(slurp "https://btc-e.com/api/2/btc_usd/ticker")
08:28	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
08:28	jph-	hehe
08:28	clgv	ah there it is^^
08:28	jph-	yay its not just me
08:28	clgv	no the bot probably does not allow socket connections
08:28	jph-	oh
08:28	jph-	yes my bad
08:28	jph-	clojail
08:29	beamso	i did get the SSLHandshakeException in a local repl using the same s-expression
08:29	clgv	,(slurp "http://www.heise.de")
08:29	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
08:29	clgv	^^
08:30	jph-	in linux /usr/lib/jvm/java-7-oracle/bin/keytool -list -keystore /usr/lib/jvm/java-7-oracle/jre/lib/security/cacerts
08:30	jph-	(ubuntu)
08:30	jcromartie	it's gone from 1.7
08:30	jcromartie	$ keytool -list -keystore /Library/Java/JavaVirtualMachines/jdk1.7.0_17.jdk/Contents/Home/lib/security/cacerts \| grep '47:BE:AB:C9:22:EA:E8:0E:78:78:34:62:A7:9F:45:C2:54:FD:E6:8B'
08:30	jcromartie	nothing
08:30	jph-	interesting
08:30	jcromartie	oh wait
08:31	beamso	that's an old jdk
08:31	jcromartie	yeah it's gone (sorry wrong command before, but verified this time)
08:31	jcromartie	I'm running 1.7.0_17 on OS X
08:31	jcromartie	this is a dev machine for a stuffy institution :)
08:31	jph-	"it's an older code, but it's valid" (star wars)
08:32	jcromartie	but seeing as the cert is there in 1.6 but gone in 1.7
08:32	jph-	i wonder if there's a changelog for why these are removed
08:32	jph-	maybe it was compromised
08:32	jcromartie	maybe somebody just doesn't like GoDaddy :) I wouldn't blame them
08:33	jph-	i wish i could copy/paste from firefox view cert
08:33	jph-	the fingerprint itself
08:33	clgv	jph-: you can easily use an application specific truststore
08:34	jph-	clgv, oh i know that, i'm more curious about the WHY right now
08:34	clgv	that way you could also use self-signed certs for your own services
08:34	jph-	since i want to do some transactional stuff over that API, and bad ssl certs make me nervous
08:34	beamso	jph-: http://notes.richdougherty.com/2013/09/adding-godaddy-g2-root-cert-to-jdk-7.html
08:35	jph-	beamso, awesome
08:35	jph-	how do i inc again
08:35	jph-	(inc beamso)
08:35	lazybot	⇒ 2
08:35	beamso	there is a godaddy cert listed in my jdk but it wasn't the root one for that website
08:35	beamso	woohoo!
08:36	jcromartie	but I thought you were interested in the why? ;)
08:36	jph-	im still interested in the why :)
08:36	clgv	me too :P
08:36	jph-	but the fact it's a known issue gives me a little more confidence
08:36	jph-	ie it didnt just happen overnight
08:37	jcromartie	so meanwhile
08:37	jcromartie	developing Atlassian plugins in Clojure?
08:37	jcromartie	because I want to add 10s to my Atlassian app startup time
08:38	jcromartie	I'd really like a REPL in my JIRA
08:39	jcromartie	and JIRA in my REPL
08:39	jcromartie	http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110112210935/familyguy/images/5/5e/Reeces1.png
08:41	sid_	I have a noir session that contains :user-id in {:noir {:user {:pass $2a$10$BHASD1221asD.AsdasdWWAASDQOLfqsE.PPfOtKrt32szyEmrW, :last_name nil, :first_name nil, :id sid}, :user-id sid}} . How can I retrieve the value of this key in ajax call?
08:42	hyPiRion	what do you mean by "this key"?
08:43	jph-	sid_, have a compojure route that replies with (session/get :user-id)
08:43	jph-	but the ajax caller would have to be authenticated
08:43	jph-	since it's session/cookie based
08:44	sid_	jph_, I'll try and reply if it works
08:44	jph-	sid_, you could also call {{ user-id }} in a selmer template
08:45	jph-	or whatever templatingyour using
08:45	sid_	jph_, I'm using selmer, but I have to make the get call in js file
08:45	jph-	its more about where you want to use :user-id
08:46	jph-	are you using luminus?
08:46	sid_	jph_, yes, I'm using luminus
08:46	jph-	ie
08:46	jph-	in app/views/layout.clj
08:46	jph-	i have
08:46	jph-	:username (session/get :username))
08:46	jph-	in my (assoc params ...)
08:47	jph-	so in my selmer templates
08:47	jph-	i can now use {{ username }}
08:47	sid_	yes, I made :user-id in app/views/layout.clj
08:47	jph-	so the var is visible in templates
08:47	jph-	if you purely want it in an ajax call
08:47	sid_	but can I directly use {{user-id}} in my js file?
08:47	jph-	it'd be somethin glike
08:47	jph-	(GET "/ajax/user-id" [] (session/get :user-id))
08:48	jph-	in your defroutes
08:48	jph-	somewhere
08:48	sid_	I've used selmer tags in static html pages
08:48	jph-	so your js ajax call requests /ajax/user-id to get the user-id
08:49	sid_	thanks jph_, I''ll try it
08:50	jph-	good luck
08:51	sid_	:)
08:55	jph-	"GoDaddy has not added their newer G2 CA server to the default java truststore - causing default java installations to not trust it's authority, and hence, does not trust your chained certificate."
08:55	jph-	h (session/get :user-id)
08:55	jph-	<jph-> but the ajax caller would have to be authenti
08:55	jph-	woops
08:55	jph-	https://stackoverflow.com/questions/18746565/godaddy-ssl-cert-not-working-with-java
09:10	xsyn	how do I get the first record that appears in an incanter set for all records?
09:11	xsyn	so if I have duplicates, I just want all of the first ones?
09:23	clgv	xsyn: (-> ds :rows distinct)
09:23	noidi	I wrote a blog post showcasing some cool REPL tools: http://dev.solita.fi/2014/03/18/pimp-my-repl.html
09:32	_bart	Freesound.org is so unstable right now, continuously on- and offline.
09:32	_bart	(using it with Overtone)
09:36	xsyn	clgv: thanks will give it a try
09:38	AeroNotix	best way to deploy an uberjar to archiva or w/e?
09:38	AeroNotix	I've seen lein deploy-uberjar, looking for alternatives.
09:38	mdrogalis	AeroNotix: Archiva's not meant to be used with uberjars, just jars.
09:38	AeroNotix	mdrogalis: I understand this, obviously.
09:39	mdrogalis	AeroNotix: Not obvious to me. :P
09:42	mpenet	AeroNotix: you can use lein deploy and pass the .jar + pom as arguments
09:42	clgv	AeroNotix: you could create the pom for the normal lib and modify it for the uberjar and then upload both manually via the webui - provided you are sure you actually need it there
09:43	AeroNotix	clgv: it's just a nice way to deploy to boxen
09:43	mpenet	AeroNotix: see lein help deploy
09:43	AeroNotix	mpenet: cheers
09:45	clgv	mpenet: awesome
10:13	mskoud	Looking to the functional way of adding new items to a map like this: {:a 2 :b "test" ...} => {:a 2 :a_x "y" :b "test :b_x "test2" ...}
10:14	jcromartie	,(assoc {:a 2 :b "test"} :a_x "y")
10:14	clojurebot	{:a_x "y", :a 2, :b "test"}
10:14	jcromartie	,(assoc {:a 2 :b "test"} :a_x "y" :b_x "test2")
10:14	clojurebot	{:b_x "test2", :a_x "y", :a 2, :b "test"}
10:14	jcromartie	,(merge {:a 2 :b "test"} {:a_x "y" :b_x "test2"})
10:14	clojurebot	{:a_x "y", :b_x "test2", :a 2, :b "test"}
10:15	mskoud	i need to add a new key ?_x for all existing keys.
10:15	jcromartie	how are you going to derive the values?
10:15	jcromartie	that's easy enough BTW
10:16	mskoud	a function will return the modified value.
10:17	jph-	anything i could use for queueing (fifo) functions? i can do a max of 4/sec
10:17	jcromartie	,(let [m {:a 2 :b "test"} f #(str % "_2")] (merge m (into {} (map (fn [[k v]] [(keyword (name k) "_x") (f v)]) m)))
10:17	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
10:18	jcromartie	more like
10:18	jcromartie	,(let [m {:a 2 :b "test"} f #(str % "_2")] (merge m (into {} (map (fn [[k v]] [(keyword (str (name k) "_x")) (f v)]) m))))
10:18	clojurebot	{:b_x "test_2", :a_x "2_2", :a 2, :b "test"}
10:18	mskoud	Thanks!
10:19	jcromartie	into tends to be a handy tool when transforming collections
10:19	jcromartie	actually
10:19	jcromartie	,(let [m {:a 2 :b "test"} f #(str % "_2")] (into m (map (fn [[k v]] [(keyword (str (name k) "_x")) (f v)]) m)))
10:19	clojurebot	{:a 2, :b "test", :a_x "2_2", :b_x "test_2"}
10:19	jcromartie	just skip the merge
10:20	pjstadig	i want to set the filePermissions element as described here https://github.com/jcaddel/maven-s3-wagon/wiki/Permissions which says to set it in ~/.m2/settings.xml, but i want to set it in my project.clj
10:20	pjstadig	is that possible?
10:24	mskoud	works like a charm. any good references to articles learning this style of programming.
10:40	jstew	mskoud: Are you new to functional programming?
10:40	jstew	mskoud: I am, and this helps a lot: https://leanpub.com/fp-oo
10:40	mskoud	yes. started to look at clojure some months ago...
10:41	pythonjohn	morning clojurins
10:41	pythonjohn	*clojurians
10:41	pythonjohn	I have a very general question to pose to the flor
10:41	jstew	mskoud: Plus, writing some clojure every day helps. Even if just a little bit. 4clojure.org, project eueler, and google code jam is what I suggest.
10:42	dnolen_	pythonjohn: just ask your question
10:42	pythonjohn	coming from the land of oo, I am always tempted to view my projects as several smaller parts (classes), each with it's own small job to do
10:42	pythonjohn	when I am organizing a clojure namespace
10:42	jcromartie	pythonjohn: you should continue to do so
10:42	pythonjohn	how should I best organize my files
10:43	pythonjohn	should I view them as each smaller parts of a whole, like classes
10:43	pythonjohn	that is my habit
10:43	pythonjohn	i am trying to understand the best way to organize things
10:43	AeroNotix	pythonjohn: use lein and go and read some popular projects.
10:43	pythonjohn	okay
10:43	jstew	pythonjohn: your namespaces in clojure are kind of like classes in OO. Classes are often little more than a namespace for grouping a set of methods.
10:43	pythonjohn	that is kind of what I was thinking
10:43	pythonjohn	but thought I might be way off
10:44	jcromartie	namespaces are for preventing collisions, not for imposing hierarchy, but a first pass at translating a OO approach into Clojure, will probably end up with namespaces that look a lot like classes
10:44	jcromartie	and there's nothing wrong with that
10:44	pythonjohn	so that is normalish
10:44	pythonjohn	I am trying to break old habits
10:44	pythonjohn	slowly
10:44	wunki	anyone have an idea how you would do a "SELECT COUNT(id) FROM table" in Korma?
10:45	pythonjohn	thanks for the input everyone
10:45	pythonjohn	I am ging to read more github projects to get a concrete idea of the layout
10:45	pythonjohn	of some experienced folks
10:46	seangrove	wunki: Sadly, I can't deep link into the page, but it's literally covered on the docs site (aggregate (count :*) :cnt :status)
10:46	seangrove	http://sqlkorma.com/docs
10:46	seangrove	dnolen_: You get a chance to checkout the 'glueing' concept?
10:47	wunki	seangrove: aggregate count adds it on a row basis, I just want to have the amount of rows
10:47	dnolen_	seangrove: sorry, haven't yet
10:47	augustl	pythonjohn: I tend to think about what I need to require. If two files requires the same things, perhaps they should be one file?
10:47	augustl	s/files/namespaces
10:48	pythonjohn	that is a good point
10:48	pythonjohn	I will try to keep that in mind for sure
10:49	augustl	pythonjohn: this code used to be two files, for example, to separate run and export which are very different in nature https://github.com/augustl/augustl.com/blob/master/src/augustl_com/cli.clj
10:49	augustl	but they are also very similar :)
10:49	jstew	Clojure is so much fun, that I want to find a job working with it, once I become more proficient.
10:50	AeroNotix	damn right
10:50	AeroNotix	I have a clojure jobb
10:50	seangrove	wunki: Let me check the sql output of that code...
10:50	jcromartie	we have a lot of people using it
10:51	AeroNotix	it's awesome when I see coworkers struggling with tooling and/or language issues and I breeze by with Clojure
10:51	AeroNotix	such a great platform to develop on
10:51	AeroNotix	the JVM is really mature
10:51	AeroNotix	I mean, their struggling is not awesome, but that I don't struggle is. :)
10:51	jstew	I keep seeing more and more people wanting clojure experts, too. The past couple of years it has seemed to catch on a lot faster.
10:51	seangrove	AeroNotix: I was going to say, careful with that Schadenfreude...
10:52	jstew	AeroNotix: I struggle with rubygems on a daily basis. Ruby is fun, but rubygems is a horrid mess. Ruby devs don't seem to care about dependencies at all.
10:54	seangrove	wunki: (korm/dry-run (korm/select db/users (korm/aggregate (count :id) :cnt))) => dry run :: SELECT COUNT("users"."id") AS "cnt" FROM "users" :: []
10:54	mskoud	How do i include the old clojure.contrib.strint string interpolation library in Clojure 1.5?
10:54	seangrove	wunki: Isn't that the sql you asked for?
10:54	wunki	seangrove: it is, strange, when I tried it I got every row back from the db :/
10:55	wunki	seangrove: let me try it out again
10:55	seangrove	wunki: No worries
10:55	stuartsierra	mskoud: I think it's in core.incubator
10:56	mskoud	indeed it is :-) thanks!
10:56	wunki	seangrove: yup, that was it... my mistake was that I did the following `(select users (aggregate (count :*) :cnt))`
10:57	wunki	seangrove: thanks for the help
10:57	seangrove	wunki: No problem, happy to help!
11:06	jjttjj	anyone know of a more advanced core.async tutorial that talks about the pubsub/mult, etc, or a project on github that uses these?
11:17	jstew	People who have clojure jobs: Out of curiousity, what sorts of things do you work on every day?
11:18	jcromartie	web apps, lots of API interop
11:18	seangrove	Product, generally.
11:18	jcromartie	data ingest
11:18	zspencer	web apps
11:18	jcromartie	data conversion
11:18	zspencer	and services supporting the web apps
11:18	jstew	Nice. These are things that I enjoy doing also. Back end services.
11:18	hyPiRion	parsing complex formats specified by another format at runtime
11:19	zspencer	I also use clojure daily to make myself feel smarter than my ruby/javascript programmer friends
11:19	zspencer	which is probably the most important feature
11:19	seangrove	jstew: Front-end dev is becoming unbelievably better these days
11:20	seangrove	Om, reusable components, tooling, core.async, and some new patterns... it's fantastic.
11:20	pjstadig	zspencer: you have ruby/javascript programmer friends‽</horror>
11:20	jstew	Thanks for your responses :)
11:21	jcromartie	I used to be the one asking that question
11:21	cbp	I use clojure mostly for clojurescript at work
11:21	cbp	but do some backend services on my own time
11:21	jstew	seangrove: I have seen some wicked demos involving core.async and Om. I work with a guy on the jQuery core team and he was left scratching his head but was amazed with the performance.
11:22	seangrove	jstew: The tooling, layout management, and reusable components are what get me giddy these days, but it's all fantastic fun.
11:39	danno1	Dumb Q: Ifn is an interface that represents functions...right?
11:40	llasram	IFn, yes
11:40	danno1	thanks, llasram
11:40	danno1	also, in https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/IFn.java
11:41	danno1	What is:
11:41	danno1	static public interface L{long invokePrim();}static public interface D{double invokePrim();}static public interface OL{long invokePrim(Object arg0);}static public interface OD{double invokePrim(Object arg0);}static public interface LO{Object invokePrim(long arg0);}static public interface LL{long invokePrim(long arg0);}static public interface LD{double invokePrim(long arg0);}static public interface DO{Object invokePrim(double arg0);}static public
11:41	danno1	methods called DLL, DOD, DLO, DLD, etc.
11:41	pjstadig	those allow you to pass unboxed primitive arguments to functions that are compiled to take them
11:41	clgv	danno1: those are for primitive functions
11:41	Bronsa	danno1: mostly implementation details for primitive taking functions
11:42	danno1	oh yeah
11:42	danno1	derp on me
11:42	danno1	haha
11:42	clgv	that's why primitive functions have limitations on the number of arguments...
11:42	danno1	cigv: interesting
11:48	danno1	Simple Q Again:
11:48	danno1	I can create a list that is like a List in Java/Scala/Groovy: (list 1 2 3 4)
11:49	danno1	but if I create a list purely as (1 2 3 4) it is expecting the first element to be a IFn?
11:49	danno1	since it is evaluated immediately?
11:49	joegallo	,(= '(1 2 3 4) (list 1 2 3 4))
11:49	clojurebot	true
11:50	joegallo	danno1: that's right, (1 2 3 4) is going to treat 1 as a fn
11:50	danno1	Boom! Nice! joegallo.
11:50	joegallo	which you don't want, so typically you'd see the list quoted, like above
11:50	cbp	If you don't quote it the first element must be a function, macro or java class
11:50	cbp	or special form
11:50	clgv	,(1 2 3 4)
11:50	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
11:50	clgv	^^
11:51	danno1	cbp & clgv: Noting. Thank you
11:51	napper2	,(source recur)
11:51	clojurebot	Source not found\n
11:51	justin_smith	napper2: I think recur is a symbol that is bound inside loop / fn?
11:51	justin_smith	it isn't bound at the top level
11:52	clgv	napper2: recur is a special form
11:52	napper2	thanks for the corrections
11:53	clgv	,(keys (clojure.lang.Compiler/specials))
11:53	clojurebot	(deftype* new quote & var ...)
11:53	clgv	,(println (keys (clojure.lang.Compiler/specials)))
11:53	clojurebot	(deftype* new quote & var ...)\n
11:53	clgv	&(keys (clojure.lang.Compiler/specials))
11:53	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! class clojure.lang.Compiler is bad!
11:53	clgv	:/
11:53	justin_smith	,(doc recur)
11:53	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
11:53	clgv	well, check yourself^^
11:54	clgv	,((clojure.lang.Compiler/specials) 'recur)
11:54	clojurebot	#<Parser clojure.lang.Compiler$RecurExpr$Parser@b31bff>
11:54	cbp	(doc recur)
11:54	clojurebot	Pardon?
11:54	justin_smith	,(do (use 'clojure.repl) (doc recur))
11:54	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
11:54	justin_smith	hrm
11:54	jstew	http://clojure.org/special_forms#Special Forms--(recur exprs*) <-- there :)
11:54	cbp	I thought all the special forms had some sort of docs
11:55	seangrove	I think doc is special-cased. But clojurebot's always a bit loopy
11:55	clgv	justin_smith: it is neither a def, defn or defmacro - hence there is nothing for "doc" to find ;)
11:55	cbp	maybe clojurebot is just being silly
11:55	jconnolly	whoa clojurebot speaks irish?
11:55	justin_smith	cbp: doc recur works in my repl
11:55	justin_smith	clgv: ^^
11:55	clgv	ah right
11:56	cbp	&(doc recur)
11:56	lazybot	⇒ "Special: recur; Evaluates the exprs in order, then, in parallel, rebinds\n the bindings of the recursion point to the values of the exprs.\n Execution then jumps back to the recursion point, a loop or fn method."
11:56	cbp	lazybot: botsnack
11:56	lazybot	cbp: Thanks! Om nom nom!!
11:56	clgv	$source doc
11:56	lazybot	Source not found.
11:56	clgv	$source clojure.repl/doc
11:56	lazybot	clojure.repl/doc is http://is.gd/qrh0LE
11:58	danno1	,(first (list 1 2 3 4))
11:58	clojurebot	1
11:59	justin_smith	danno1: in my experience I don't see list used very often - usually it's either a [] vector literal or '() quoted sequence
12:00	justin_smith	,(map class (list 1 2 3) '(1 2 3))
12:00	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core/class>
12:00	danno1	justin_smith: I kind of figured that vector is used more
12:00	justin_smith	,(map class [(list 1 2 3) '(1 2 3)])
12:00	clojurebot	(clojure.lang.PersistentList clojure.lang.PersistentList)
12:01	justin_smith	yeah, but notice '(1 2 3) is the same datatype as (list 1 2 3)
12:01	danno1	danno1: since function args are vectors
12:01	danno1	justin_smith: yes
12:15	jph-	how might i rewrite this in clojure using interop? CurrencyUnit.registerCurrency("TST", 991, -2, Arrays.asList("TS"));
12:15	jph-	in particular the Arrays.asLists bit confuses me (no java background)
12:16	cbp	(Arrays/asList "TS")
12:16	jph-	oh, duh
12:16	cbp	provided you import java.util.Arrays
12:16	jph-	k
12:16	hyPiRion	jph-: it just converts a vararg to a list of those values
12:16	hyPiRion	you can just use ["TS"] instead
12:16	cbp	Ah
12:40	seangrove	bbloom: How'd the talk last night go?
12:47	dnolen_	seangrove: I was there, was good!
12:49	seangrove	dnolen_: Did he come off as researcher-executor or crazy-shouty-rambling-homeless-man?
12:50	dnolen_	seangrove: neither, solid talk :)
12:52	locks	haha
12:53	gfredericks	https://github.com/budu/lobos/blob/master/src/lobos/connectivity/jdbc_2.clj
13:48	gfredericks	does java.jdbc not have anything for upserts anymore?
13:54	amalloy	justin_smith: i use list in function position pretty rarely, it's true, but not never. where the function list does see use is in stuff like (map list xs ys)
13:55	amalloy	and like, okay, in that specific context vector is still more common than list. but i claim list is good sometimes anyway
13:56	turbofail	hm. i can't remember the last time i used list at all
13:56	rasmusto	,(apply map list [[1 2 3] [4 5 6]])
13:56	clojurebot	((1 4) (2 5) (3 6))
13:56	rasmusto	I do that all the time
13:56	technomancy	sometimes I apply list. I don't think I ever have called it directly.
13:57	jstew	any reason you would want a list of lists rather than vectors when mapping 2 vectors?
13:58	turbofail	dunno. i'm sure you could come up with a reason
13:58	turbofail	i just can't think of one, and never felt the need to do it
13:59	llasram	jstew: Most of the "lists" you see e.g. in the Clojure REPL are actually lazy sequences, which are, well, lazy
13:59	llasram	So that's a reason to prefer them
14:02	amalloy	technomancy: why would you apply list? that's what list* is for
14:03	rasmusto	,(doc vector*)
14:03	clojurebot	No entiendo
14:03	amalloy	i mean, obviously the results are a little different: (apply list 1 2 3 xs) forces all of xs, where (list* 1 2 3 xs) doesn't force any of it
14:04	jstew	TIL about list*
14:11	bts-	anyone know of a way to get prep-tasks to run before loading my dev profile's source-paths in lein? my dev source-paths depends on thrift class compiliation done by prep-tasks
14:12	justin_smith	amalloy: yeah, not claiming it is useless, just mentioning that it is fairly rare in code I see
14:13	amalloy	bts-: really? shouldn't it be known statically where the classes output by thrift will go?
14:16	bts-	amalloy: i know where the classes will go, but i need to have them compiled before i load the code in my dev source-paths. lein seems to load the dev source-paths before executing prep-tasks
14:18	bts-	amalloy: and so I get a ClassNotFoundException
14:24	technomancy	bts-: nothing gets loaded by default unless you ask for it
14:28	Bronsa	technomancy: any idea why mixing AOT compiled deftypes with reloading its definition doesn't work in a lein repl but works when from java -cp `lein classpath` clojure.main?
14:30	bts-	technomancy: from the docs "By default the :dev, :provided, :user, :system, and :base profiles are activated for each task"
14:31	bts-	technomancy: is there a way to get prep-tasks to run without loading :dev?
14:34	amalloy	Bronsa: i wouldn't expect it to work in either case, really. do you have a simple example of making it work?
14:34	Bronsa	amalloy: one sec
14:35	amalloy	like, if you just `lein classpath` without ever running `lein compile`, i'm not sure the AOT ever happens, so you wouldn't see the usual issues
14:35	Bronsa	amalloy: I'm calling `compile`
14:41	bts-	technomancy: as a workaround I currently temporarily comment-out :dev's source-paths if the thrift classes aren't yet compiled
14:44	Bronsa	amalloy: http://sprunge.us/cjeS
14:45	technomancy	bts-: those profiles are active, but that just places them on the classpath. it doesn't load anything.
14:45	Bronsa	amalloy: http://sprunge.us/jTYS a bit cleaned up
14:47	technomancy	Bronsa: hm; very strange. I don't do AOT at not-deploy-time or deftype, so I'm also surprised that works.
14:48	amalloy	Bronsa: does your call to compile in the first example actually generate classfiles? i don't have a ton of experience with AOT, and especially not with doing it by hand, but the most obvious difference to me is that lein is implicitly running compile before repl in the second case and not the first
14:48	amalloy	well, i guess that depends what's in your project.clj
14:48	Bronsa	amalloy: it's straight out of lein new test
14:49	Bronsa	amalloy: yes it's generating classfiles btw
14:50	Bronsa	technomancy: amalloy looks like there's something going wrong with how leiningen/nrepl handles classloaders
14:54	bts-	technomancy: okay that makes sense. I guess my problem then is that I have REPL utility functions in dev/user.clj that I only want to load after prep-tasks. any recommendation to achieve that?
14:56	hiredman	Bronsa: is ./classes in `lein classpath`?
14:57	hiredman	I suspect lein compiles to target/classes
14:57	technomancy	bts-: oh, user.clj is loaded by clojure itself; that's outside lein's control. depending on what you're doing, runtime resolve might be a good option there
14:58	Bronsa	hiredman: let me try binding compile-path to target/classes then
14:59	bts-	technomancy: awesome -- thanks!
15:00	Bronsa	hiredman: that makes it fail, good catch
15:00	Bronsa	technomancy: not a lein bug then, sorry for the fuss
15:02	technomancy	no worries
15:08	dnolen_	http://mreinhold.org/blog/jdk8-ga
15:08	Cr8	hum
15:15	Bronsa	hiredman: amalloy anyway, do you know of any good reason why that behaviour should be expected or am I right in assuming that this limitation should be considered a bug?
15:16	hiredman	which behaviour?
15:16	Cr8	the stuff in the core.async docs about >! and >!! returning true on success doesn't seem to be accurate
15:16	amalloy	the limitation that...if you reload code containing AOTed deftypes, references to the old class stick around?
15:17	dacc	dnolen_: implications for clojure? nice to see permgen go.
15:17	dnolen_	dacc: for ClojureScript users the appearance of Nashorn is big
15:17	tbaldridge	Cr8: explain?
15:18	Bronsa	amalloy: hiredman specifically that a class name gets resolved to the AOT class rather than to the dynamically compiled one
15:18	dnolen_	dacc: I suspect when Nashorn perf enhancements land, and we improve the CLJS compiler a bit, Nashorn could be a pretty sweet scripting solution for Clojure users
15:18	dnolen_	dacc: in the long wrong, perhaps Clojure can leverage the invokeDynamic stuff which finally not slow
15:19	jcromartie	the long wrong :)
15:19	jcromartie	I like that idea
15:19	dnolen_	s/long wrong/long run
15:19	hiredman	Bronsa: it is an issue that is known to those in the know, but I don't know what the specifics of it our (how why it happens, etc)
15:20	Cr8	tbaldridge: https://www.refheap.com/61482
15:20	dacc	dnolen_: so compiling clojure to javascript to run on nashorn? seems like you'd just script jvm programs using the clojure compiler itself, no?
15:20	tbaldridge	Cr8: what version of core.async?
15:20	amalloy	Bronsa: i mostly regard AOT as a mysterious black box in which all manner of sad things become routine. i don't know which sad things are bugs and which are not
15:21	Cr8	"0.1.267.0-0d7780-alpha", just the one from the README
15:21	Cr8	should I be building master? :)
15:22	tbaldridge	Cr8, go read the README again :-P
15:22	dnolen_	dacc: not saying it will actually work out - but worth exploring, jjs will likely optimized to start as quickly as possible - not necesarrily really true for Java
15:22	hiredman	amalloy: too long for an OH
15:22	tbaldridge	Cr8: that's my bad, I never updated the README
15:23	Cr8	ah
15:23	amalloy	hiredman: remove all the verbs? I AOT box sad things. sad things bugs
15:23	tbaldridge	Cr8: we changed the value returned from put in the latest version. So the docs you were reading are correct, it's just the version in the README was too old
15:23	Cr8	all fine now :)
15:24	hiredman	amalloy: works for me
15:24	Cr8	that makes sense
15:31	abaker	so I noticed that in clojure java.jdbc implementation, the macros like with-connection and such leverage private vars, and then rebind db -- is this considered good practice?
15:32	jcromartie	abaker: that's actually deprecated now
15:32	abaker	jcromartie: which is, the entire library or just that implementation?
15:32	jcromartie	wait wait
15:33	jcromartie	yeah
15:33	jcromartie	that style
15:33	jcromartie	all of those macros live in clojure.java.jdbc.deprecated now
15:33	jcromartie	and the functions just take a connection instead
15:34	jcromartie	you generally need a very good reason to depend on dynamic vars
15:34	abaker	yeah, I've seen it on the' do not use list' before.. I'm writing a with-connection style macro, and debating if I even need a macro, and if I do, how to go about it
15:34	abaker	like with-open, it would just be to standardize closing out of resoruces
15:34	cbp	abaker: god no, no globals for database connections and certainly no dynamic vars
15:35	jcromartie	there's nothing simpler than a parameter to a function
15:36	ToBeReplaced	abaker: consider stuartsierra's component library for start/stop standards
15:37	abaker	yeah that left me wondering why any of the with- style macros exist in the first place, like with-open, afaict, it's grown a lot to avoid swallowing exceptions all for the one purpose of making sure the stream gets closed
15:37	jcromartie	abaker: with-open has good reason to exist
15:38	stuartsierra	Unlike many of the with- macros, with-open uses lexical scope, not dynamic binding.
15:40	katratxo	cemerick: ping?
15:40	katratxo	cemerick: just poking you on the friend change proposal
15:42	stuartsierra	abaker: here's my point of view on that pattern. http://stuartsierra.com/2013/03/29/perils-of-dynamic-scope
15:43	abaker	ah, that's what i was looking for, thanks stuartsierra
15:44	stuartsierra	You're welcome
15:51	cemerick	katratxo: responded on the gist. Probably better to just open an issue in the future. :-)
15:56	katratxo	cemerick: sure, will to that next time, i'll open an issue
16:00	mikerod	I found something fun out.
16:01	mikerod	satisfies? seems to be a bit slow when checking on things that are not implementing an interface
16:02	mikerod	,(time (dorun (map #(satisfies? clojure.core.protocols/CollReduce %) (repeat 1000000 "hi"))))
16:02	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
16:03	Bronsa	mikerod: that's because it has to lookup in the impl map not only the class, but all the super classes/interfaces
16:03	mikerod	slows down at lot near 1 million checks. I profiled it, looks like most of the time is spent in java.lang.Class#getInterfaces
16:04	mikerod	I would have thought this was fast?
16:04	mikerod	Class#getInterfaces is slow?
16:04	mikerod	I know it is a harder search when it doesn't satisfy it or directly implement an interface generated by the protocol
16:06	mikerod	I'm just surprised by this being a performance hit like this
16:06	mikerod	we had a tight loop that had a `satisfies?` in a precondition
16:08	Bronsa	mikerod: I remember remiving a satisfies? check in tools.reader improved perf by 40x
16:08	Bronsa	removing*
16:09	mikerod	Bronsa: That doesn't surprise me now that I've seen the damage it can do :P
16:09	mikerod	I was just trying to get a good error message when a fn was called on a obj that didn't satisfy the required protocol. I think I'll have to explore a different alternative
16:09	Bronsa	mikerod: I suspect a small cache in find-protocol-impl could speed-up significantly satisfies?
16:10	mikerod	*that's why I had the satisfies? in the :pre-condition block
16:10	mikerod	Bronsa: I'd imagine so
16:11	Bronsa	mikerod: you can try (with-redefs [find-protocol-impl (clojure.core.cache/lru find-protocol-impl)] ..) and see how it goes :P
16:12	Bronsa	s/cache/memoize
16:12	mikerod	Bronsa: hah, well that is one alternative I suppose
16:12	mikerod	that'd be interesting...
16:12	amalloy	Bronsa: but protocols can be extended at runtime. i assume that's why there's not a cache already
16:13	Bronsa	amalloy: fair enough
16:13	mikerod	amalloy: oh, duh I didn't think that way about it
16:13	mikerod	good point
16:13	Bronsa	amalloy: well, extend could invalidate that cache
16:13	mikerod	I guess, if I wanted to try calling a protocol fn on something and I just wanted a good error message, I could try-catch it
16:13	amalloy	mikerod: you'll never be able to be sure though
16:14	mikerod	amalloy: I know, it could claim to satisfy, but not really impl the fn.
16:14	amalloy	maybe it does implement the protocol, but its implementation involves throwing an exception that looks the same as dont-implement-this-protocol
16:14	mikerod	amalloy: yep, lose-lose situation? :P
16:14	amalloy	Bronsa: that sounds plausible to me
16:15	Bronsa	amalloy: I'm doing something similar in tools.analyzer for resolving classes, it's working fine
16:16	mikerod	The one thought I still had, how is Class#getInterfaces where I'm seeing most of the time spent though? I thought that would be fast. A native method in the Class class.
16:17	amalloy	mikerod: anything in Class or java.lang.reflect.* is slow
16:17	mikerod	amalloy: I thought that was true for java.lang.reflect, I didn't think so for Class.
16:17	mikerod	it is hard to search on this topic it seems
16:17	amalloy	anything you do with Class is reflection
16:18	amalloy	except using == to compare them, simple stuff like that
16:18	amalloy	it's just in java.lang because getClass() is part of Object, i suspect; otherwise it would be in reflect
16:18	mikerod	amalloy: that is where I wasn't making the connection. I thought an object has a concrete reference to it's Class class obj. So I thought the information on the Class class were just direct references; that sort of thing.
16:19	mikerod	I see.
16:22	Bronsa	oh well, memoizing find-protocol-impl accounts only for a 2x speedup, that's sad
16:23	mikerod	:(
16:27	hiredman	Bronsa: but now if someone extends a protocol find-protocol-impl doesn't work correctly
16:27	amalloy	hiredman: i already waved that flag. he points out that extend could invalidate the cache, if the cache were useful enough to actually include in clojure
16:28	hiredman	amalloy, Bronsa: oh sure, huh
16:30	hiredman	mikerod: if you make an actual protocol fn that returns true on some objects and false on other objects, it will be faster than satisfies?, because you get a little inline cache
16:31	hiredman	(defprotocol Yo (yes? [whatever])) (extend-protocol Yo Object (yes? [_] false)) then have it return true for your thing
16:32	amalloy	huh. i just found this in the source for java.lang.Class: throw (InstantiationException) new InstantiationException(...);
16:32	amalloy	why would you ever cast a constructor's result to its own class?
16:32	amalloy	oh, i see. i parsed it wrong
16:32	amalloy	it's really: throw (InstantiationException) new InstantiationException(...).initCause(e);
16:36	hiredman	I am skeptical of the value of speeding up satisfies?, guarding a dynamic polymorphic function with those kind of guards seems like an anti-pattern, the same way in java people frown and using instanceof checks everywhere (and I know someone is going to point out the clojure source does that everywhere, but that is bootstrapping a dynamic language on a static runtime, it happens)
16:36	jcromartie	how slow are you talking?
16:38	mikerod	hiredman: that is a good idea
16:39	mikerod	hiredman: I haven't really explored the idea of implementing it in a way that would be checkable and inline cacheable
16:40	mikerod	I like this idea, for my use cases at least
16:42	hiredman	it is unlikely that satisfies? as a general function would every keep up with the performance of an actually protocol function, given the current impl and the likely future path of protocol fns (invokedynamic switch points)
16:43	hiredman	maybe if clojure went full indy replacing ifns with method handles
16:44	mikerod	interesting thoughts
16:50	coventry	Is there a way to get a java dump on a clojure process on OS X, as in the following URL? "kill -QUIT <pid>" doesn't seem to have any effect. http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/javasdk/v5r0/index.jsp?topic=%2Fcom.ibm.java.doc.diagnostics.50%2Fdiag%2Ftools%2Fjavadump_trigger.html
16:51	amalloy	coventry: like a heap dump?
16:51	amalloy	jmap for heap dumps, jstack for stacktraces
16:52	ordnungswidrig2	coventry: it's like for every java vm instance, clojure does not make a difference
16:53	justin_smith	coventry: also in jvisualvm you can look at / collect stats interactively at runtime and at your option trigger a dump
16:53	coventry	amalloy: sweet, thanks.
16:53	justin_smith	jvisualvm comes with java
16:53	jcromartie	jvisualvm <3
16:53	amalloy	yourkit for life
16:53	mikerod	yourkit cost $$
16:53	mikerod	visualvm has done alright :P
16:54	amalloy	free license for open-source projects. and if you use it at a real company, it's worth the money
16:54	mikerod	I didn't know that. I'll have to check it out and see the difference.
16:54	technomancy	it's only free if you advertise for them
16:54	amalloy	fwiw coventry, i've never heard of a Javadump in my life. must be some weird thing specific to the IBM jdk
16:55	technomancy	gratis, rather
16:55	amalloy	technomancy: true. on the one hand, i've never actually done that; on the other, here i am in #clojure
16:55	technomancy	~guards
16:55	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
16:56	mikerod	amalloy: so you've fulfilled your duties
16:56	mikerod	using a profiler on nrepl always confuses me
16:58	mikerod	it uses several threads and I don't suppose I know how they are being used
16:59	justin_smith	seems like clojure always has a set of threads (for agents I think?)
16:59	ordnungswidrig2	mikerod: +1
16:59	mikerod	justin_smith: it appears to be agents indeed
17:07	ordnungswidrig	there was a blog post on symbols as functions or like that. some days ago
17:08	ordnungswidrig	does anybody have a pointer? I wan't to resolve a function at runtime, not earlier
17:08	amalloy	i mean, the function is named resolve
17:09	justin_smith	,('symbol '{symbol value}) ; at first I thought ordnungswidrig meant this
17:09	clojurebot	value
17:09	amalloy	as usual, consider carefully whether you really need to do this: namespaces are great at holding functions you refer to statically; delayed stuff for runtime is often better held in a map anyway
17:09	ordnungswidrig	amalloy: I'm playing with user ns and dev
17:10	ordnungswidrig	and refresh-all.
17:10	ordnungswidrig	like in stuarts workflow
17:10	ordnungswidrig	I don't want to refer to my system-init function from user because this might break lein repl startup
17:17	chare	looking for something to host a web app that allows some free use and free db storage
17:17	chare	what do you guys use
17:17	jcromartie	Amazon can be free
17:17	jcromartie	EC2
17:17	jcromartie	you just don't want to go over the limits
17:18	dacc	i thought free tier was only for a year?
17:18	chare	what do you mean free
17:18	chare	since when is ec2 free
17:18	dacc	chare: i think you can have a free micro ec2 for the first year of your account
17:18	jcromartie	http://aws.amazon.com/free/
17:19	chare	a year is not my definition of free
17:19	jcromartie	yes 1 year after signing up for AWS
17:19	jcromartie	TINSTAAFL
17:20	chare	jcromartie damn it
17:20	jcromartie	I'm assuming you're talking about hosting a Clojure web app
17:21	jcromartie	if you can package it as a .war then there are some free Java app hosts
17:21	technomancy	he's asking about an erlang web app, he just didn't like the answers he got in #erlang
17:21	jcromartie	well yeah you're pretty much screwed there
17:23	robink	I've got a Java method that's supposed to return a class (RtfHeader), but instead Clojure is reporting that RtfHeaderFont (the child class) is being returned.
17:23	chare	come on guys there needs to be an answer, heroku gives you a free instance, but no free db storage, so its like half way there
17:23	robink	Am I doing something wrong?
17:23	robink	Rather, an instance of class RtfHeader.
17:23	jcromartie	chare: define "web app" and "db" first
17:24	chare	what do you mean?
17:24	chare	isn't that standardized
17:24	amalloy	jcromartie: TANSTAAFL, man. i don't know how heinlein would feel about someone using such a fancy-pants word as "isn't" instead of "aint"
17:24	akhudek	chare: there is appengine that has a permanent free tier
17:24	akhudek	chare: but you might have to work a bit to fit your app to their api
17:25	chare	akhudek: google app engine doesn't support erlang ><
17:25	jcromartie	chare: no it's not standardized
17:25	akhudek	oh, I didn't realize that they were serious about that
17:25	akhudek	haha
17:25	chare	akhudek: is google app engine the only one that has a true free tier?
17:25	akhudek	chare: no clue
17:25	chare	akhudek: what do you mean you saying that erlang isn't serious?
17:25	jcromartie	some people mean a few PHP files, some people mean a whole VM, some people mean a .war file
17:26	akhudek	chare: I thought they were kidding that you were trying to host an erlang app is all
17:26	akhudek	erlang is pretty cool
17:26	chare	akhudek: and even if i use clojure instead don't i have to use some messed up api involving some datastore thats not sql
17:27	jcromartie	chare: again, no free lunch
17:27	jcromartie	sorry
17:27	chare	google app engine uses some google datastore not sql right?
17:27	jcromartie	chare: any free host does so by minimizing what they give you via things like that
17:27	akhudek	chare: yes
17:27	jcromartie	key-value stores instead of free reign on a SQL DB
17:27	sdegutis	chare: I think Google Datastore is SQL right?
17:27	sdegutis	chare: pretty sure Google App Engine is just a wrapper around AWS btw
17:28	justin_smith	sdegutis: https://developers.google.com/appengine/docs/python/datastore/ it is nosql
17:28	chare	google app engine is not running on AWS no chance of that
17:28	sdegutis	chare: citation needed
17:28	akhudek	I mean there is https://developers.google.com/cloud-sql/
17:28	akhudek	but it's not free
17:29	justin_smith	"most queries are eventually consistent"
17:29	chare	ok so in worst scenario i can use clojure with google's datastore?
17:29	technomancy	chare: heroku postgres has a free tier: https://addons.heroku.com/heroku-postgresql
17:31	sdegutis	Chasm: Yeah, you can do it, but you need to make sure your Clojure app runs fine on App Engine first, which it probably won't, seeing as it's Java.
17:31	sdegutis	chare: Yeah, you can do it, but you need to make sure your Clojure app runs fine on App Engine first, which it probably won't, seeing as it's Java.
17:31	sdegutis	Chasm: sorry about that
17:34	devth	any SFW-filter-type libs out there in clojure land? could be very simple or clever. i was surprised to not find much via google.
17:35	TimMc	devth: SFW = Safe For Work?
17:35	devth	yeah. and by that i mean detect and filter out NSFW words
17:38	amalloy	(remove #{"butt" "butts"} words) ;; prototype
17:38	cbp	eheheheh
17:38	sdegutis	amalloy: shouldn't it also allow some kind of regex?
17:38	amalloy	sdegutis: i don't want to make the clbuttic mistake
17:38	sdegutis	touche
17:39	sdegutis	also haha
17:40	chare	ok I decided to try heroku
17:40	chare	lets see if its actually free
17:40	benmoss	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scunthorpe_problem
17:40	devth	lol, yeah. we are having same convo in work irc :)
17:40	devth	thought i’d check to see if there were existing libs
17:41	benmoss	this looks pretty legit http://kickjava.com/src/org/nemesis/forum/filter/FilterProfanity.java.htm
17:41	akhudek	benmoss: there is word boundary support in java regex
17:41	benmoss	lots of copyrights, CoolServlets.com
17:42	yedi	in om: i'm having trouble getting om/build to work -- https://www.refheap.com/61495
17:42	yedi	header doesn't show up
17:42	akhudek	if you tokenize the string you have to identify word boundaries anyways, but you additionally have the problem of putting it back together again if you need raw text at the end
17:42	yedi	when i replace `app` with `header` in the `start` fn, the header renders
17:54	TimMc	devth: Lost cause.
17:55	TimMc	You're familiar with l33t-speak, yes?
17:55	devth	yes, well aware you can’t catch 100%
17:55	devth	but 80% would be pretty nice
17:56	TimMc	I'm pretty sure it won't accomplish sh!t.
17:56	devth	haha
17:56	technomancy	is the goal to stop people from using objectionable language or just to keep people from seeing it who don't want to?
17:56	devth	so actual use-case is i have a chat bot, and one of its features is urban dictionary lookups. half the time they’re pretty dirty
17:56	benmoss	perhaps it is a societal problem
17:57	devth	of course it can’t filter out anything someone says. it’s irc.
17:57	devth	but filting dirty UD defs would be fairly easy to hit 80% i think
17:57	TimMc	Urban dictionary is inherently NSFW.
17:57	technomancy	ah, so if the users creating the content aren't being directly exposed to the filtering it has a chance of working
17:57	TimMc	A lot of those definitions are NSFW without even having "NSFW words".
17:58	devth	yes, but some are just funny, and not dirty
17:59	TimMc	...some.
18:00	TimMc	But technomancy is right; if it is not obvious to the authors of the text that the text is being filtered/censored, it might be OK.
18:00	devth	right
18:01	TEttinger	I'm pretty sure there's a massive amount of things on urban dictionary that would easily bypass even the strictest NSFW filter, blocking someone from using his name "Sanchez" when there's a similar entry that's very NSFW would be a problem
18:02	amalloy	yeah, i think trying to somehow clean up urban dictionary is like dusting the contents of a garbage can
18:03	devth	all the most offensive things we’ve seen in chat would be very easy to filter with a simple blacklist
18:03	devth	they don’t go for subtlety
18:03	amalloy	http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/01/ibms-watson-memorized-the-entire-urban-dictionary-then-his-overlords-had-to-delete-it/267047/
18:18	felher	If I want to put defrecords into a sorted-set, is (extend...)-ing Comparable the way to go?
18:20	amalloy	felher: Comparable is an interface, not a protocol, so you'd have to implement it as part of the defrecord definition
18:20	amalloy	but using sorted-set-by, with a sensible Comparator, is more flexible
18:21	felher	amalloy: okay, got it, big thanks :)
18:22	amalloy	felher: note that functions implement Comparator, so you can use (sorted-set-by (fn [a b] ...) x y z)
18:28	felher	amalloy: ah, that is way cool. Thanks.
19:40	dacc	what's a good sequence technique for grouping certain subsequences? e.g. [1 2 \a \b 3 \c] -> [1 2 [\a \b] 3 [\c]] (chars are grouped, but not ints)
19:41	justin_smith	dacc: you could use reduce for that, maybe there is also a way to do it lazily using mapcat
19:41	amalloy	dacc: do you really want to have 1 and 2 as top-level elements, instead of single-element collections?
19:41	dacc	amalloy: yes
19:41	amalloy	justin_smith: mapcat can't work because he needs context
19:42	justin_smith	ahh yeah
19:42	hyPiRion	,(mapcat (fn [[x :as xs]] (if (char? x) [xs] xs)) (partition-by char? [1 2 \a \b 3 \c]))
19:42	clojurebot	(1 2 (\a \b) 3 (\c))
19:43	hyPiRion	Not that I would have numbers as top-level elements, but that's how I'd do it.
19:43	dacc	cool, thanks
19:44	hyPiRion	Hmm, I had a neat idea just now.
19:45	hyPiRion	but it wouldn't work, so no matter.
20:01	coventry	Is there an extension for light table which gives a more conventional REPL interface? It would be nice to have something which provides a transcript of commands entered and arbitrarily long output.
20:32	kanwei	has anyone else played with jdk8? a simple benchmark results in 2x worse performance for me
20:33	kanwei	(time (reduce + (range 1e8))): jdk7 = 4.2s, jdk8 = 8.3s
20:35	xeqi	I don't trust benchmarks not run with criterium
20:36	yedi	any om devs know why the element attribute :selected might work differently then :className or :id? I can't get my :selected attribute on option to show up in this code: https://www.refheap.com/61515
20:36	yedi	but it works when i try it with :className or :id
20:40	beamso	kanwei: i get roughly similar times between jdk7 and jdk8
20:43	kanwei	beamso: mac?
20:44	beamso	yes
21:06	apricots	hi, when i run cider-jack-in, println from the repl prints to the repl, but println from within a ring handler doesn't seem to print anywhere. where does the stdouts go in the ring case?
21:12	apricots	ah nm
21:18	kras	Any good readme for clj-antlr? Sorry don't have a Java background
21:21	pmonks	kris - have you looked at instaparse? Unofficial Tagline: "It kicks parse".
21:21	pmonks	*kras
21:22	pmonks	Or are you looking to generate a pure Java parser?
21:24	kras	pmonks: I tired instaparse, but it doesn't suite my requirements
21:25	pmonks	ah ok
21:25	pmonks	Shame - my experience with it has been euphoric.
21:25	kras	pmonks: I don't need a complex parser but one which is fast and efficient
21:25	kras	My grammar is not very complex
21:25	kras	pmonks: how do we ignore whitespace and newlines using instaparse?
21:26	TimMc	Oh neat, lein-voom has an option to help with deterministic builds (using the git commit time for any timestamps.)
21:27	pmonks	kras: I listed whitespace explicitly in my grammer
21:27	pmonks	https://github.com/pmonks/lolcmis/blob/master/src/lolcmis/grammar.clj
21:27	pmonks	Note: I'm a n00b to both clojure and instaparse, so it might suck
21:28	kras	pmonks: whitespace is ubiquitous in my grammar
21:28	kras	I can't afford to list it in every rule
21:28	akhudek	kras: you can suppress whitespace in the generated parse trees, but you still need to put it in the grammar unfortunately
21:28	pmonks	Yeah it's common in mine too - I just list it and suppress it.
21:29	kras	pmonks: akhudek: I am actually surprised that this feature is missing. Basic for any good parser
21:30	kras	Imagine writing a subset of C like grammar listing all the whitespaces
21:30	pmonks	Luckily for me that's not my use case. ;-)
21:30	pmonks	LOLCODE syntax is rather different to C
21:31	gfredericks	today on a new project I made some utility functions in a .main namespace for organizing CLJ commands -- the idea being any var in your namespace with ^:command metadata becomes a CLI action. Then it's easy also to programmatically print out the options for a "help" task.
21:31	gfredericks	does that sound like a useful lib?
21:32	kras	pmonks: I see quite a few whitespaces in your grammar
21:32	gfredericks	s/CLJ/CLI/
21:32	pmonks	kras: yeah there are a few, but not "ubiquitous" I wouldn't say
21:32	pmonks	And suppression helps a lot - it's awesome!
21:34	guns	gfredericks: That sounds logical; the arglists can also be displayed in usage: summary style
21:35	gfredericks	guns: ah right; and docstrings of course
21:36	guns	These commands aren't amenable to -s/--switches of course
21:37	gfredericks	yeah; I wonder if it could combine well with tools.cli
21:37	guns	tools.cli needs a higher level CLI composition framework
21:37	guns	I only upgraded the parser
21:38	gfredericks	I guess if it was done simply enough it could be combine easily
21:39	gfredericks	e.g., the base functionality is [Namespace Keyword -> [String Any * -> Any]]
21:39	gfredericks	doesn't even have to be CLI specific
21:39	guns	Tying the command to namespaces seems a little restrictive
21:40	gfredericks	you could search all loaded namespaces
21:40	gfredericks	seems a little magical
21:41	guns	I think metadata for CLI metadata is a great idea. If you start building a larger framework around this idea, please let me know
21:42	guns	but yes, explicit declarations
21:44	gfredericks	the tricky part is options that you want to span commands
21:45	gfredericks	oh snap could inheritance do that nicely?
21:46	gfredericks	I need to stop thinking about this it's not going to turn into anything sane
21:49	guns	I guess metadata is kind of inexpressive if you want to write it inline as a reader attr-map
21:50	guns	Once you start using alter-meta! you may as well be using real data
21:58	hugod	guns, gfredericks: I had a go at a higher level cli lib a while back https://github.com/pallet/cli-cmds
22:03	guns	hugod: Do you have an example project that uses this library? Also, you should upgrade tools.cli (the parser is much better!)
22:05	hugod	guns: sorry the only examples of usage I have aren't open source - I should try and add some examples to the repo
22:21	gfredericks	hugod: looks interesting, thanks
22:22	technomancy	gfredericks: I did something vaguely like that ^:command thing in mire
22:23	technomancy	where you use metadata to indicate a function should be a command for a telnet game thing
22:27	gfredericks	(->> clojure-features (sort-by #(/ (use %) (hype %))))
22:27	gfredericks	(take 5)
22:28	dsrx	mire.... is that a mud engine?
22:28	dsrx	my oft-started-but-never-finished pet project in many a freshly learned language was a mud client named "quagmire"
22:31	gfredericks	I bet #1 is refs
22:31	bufferloss	,(* [2,2] [3,4])
22:32	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
22:32	bufferloss	how can I "multiply" two arrays together? in the above example I'd like the answer to be [6,8]
22:32	bufferloss	and I know I could just map * 2 in this case, but for something more arbitrary
22:32	gfredericks	,(map * [2 2] [3 4])
22:32	clojurebot	(6 8)
22:32	bufferloss	hmm, ok thx
22:33	bufferloss	,(map * [0.28384 -0.11029] [3 4])
22:33	clojurebot	(0.8515199999999999 -0.44116)
22:33	bufferloss	nice :)
22:33	brehaut	(aka zipwith in other languages)
22:36	amalloy	~zip
22:36	clojurebot	zip is not necessary in clojure, because map can walk over multiple sequences, acting as a zipWith. For example, (map list '(1 2 3) '(a b c)) yields ((1 a) (2 b) (3 c))
22:45	devn	i cant brane good. i have a case of the dums
22:46	technomancy	dsrx: it was the sample project for the peepcode screencast I did on clojure
22:47	devn	i have a seq of maps: ({"foobar" #{"UNIQUE1" "UNIQUE2"}} {"foobaz" #{"UNIQUE1" "NOTINFOOBAR"}}) and I want to get something out like {"foobar" [{"foobaz" 1}]}
22:48	devn	where the output is a map from the the original thing to a vector of maps which contains the connecting thing ("foobaz") and the number of occurences of shared values
22:48	devn	basically i want to get back something that will show me how closely connected "foobar" is to "foobaz" and everything else in that sequence of maps
22:49	devn	by returning the number of matching occurences of values
22:50	devn	im thinking (count (clojure.set/union ...)) will be what i use
22:51	devn	maybe this is just loop recur? reduce perhaps?
22:51	devn	bleh. im dead right now. probably time for bed
22:52	devn	but if you are reading this and want to take a crack at it, im interested in basically finding how many occurences of a value are shared between all of these maps with sets as their vals
22:54	devn	so (find-it '({"a" #{1 2 3}} {"b" #{2 3 4}} {"c" #{3 4 5}})) => {"a" [{"b" 2} {"c" 1}]}
22:54	devn	that's the input/output im thinking
22:54	devn	cheers
22:55	xuser	http://clojure.org/lazy - does this document has next and rest backwards?
23:05	devn	bah i mis-spoke above
23:05	devn	i meant intersection
23:09	vimuser2	when using defmulti/defmethod, is there a way to check to see if the the dispatcher value will be handled?
23:09	vimuser2	oh getmethod mabey
23:10	vimuser2	*get-method looks like it's the answer
23:15	technomancy	,(require '[clojure.set :as clojure.string])
23:15	clojurebot	nil
23:15	technomancy	,clojure.string/union
23:15	clojurebot	#<set$union clojure.set$union@f78c3d>
23:16	technomancy	http://p.hagelb.org/10hair.gif
23:16	technomancy	that is all.
23:17	bbloom	who, i didn't realize that aliases could have dots in them, but i guess of course they can...
23:18	bbloom	in general, namespaces seem half baked despite being 100X better than anything python/ruby/javascript/etc can even think about offering
23:18	technomancy	inc
23:19	bbloom	#<core$inc clojure.core$inc@43350e24>
23:19	technomancy	that too
23:22	technomancy	half baked as opposed to 5%-baked
23:22	bbloom	or in the case js, negative baked
23:22	devn	technomancy: heh
23:23	devn	{} + []
23:23	devn	like you do!
23:23	devn	,clojure.set/union
23:23	clojurebot	#<set$union clojure.set$union@f78c3d>
23:23	devn	,clojure.string/union
23:23	clojurebot	#<set$union clojure.set$union@f78c3d>
23:23	devn	,clojure.string
23:23	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.string, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
23:24	technomancy	,clojure.string/replace
23:24	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such var: clojure.string/replace, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
23:24	devn	boggle
23:24	xeqi	haha
23:24	technomancy	heavens! where has it gone?
23:24	devn	,clojure.string
23:24	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.string, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
23:24	brehaut	bbloom: js doesnt even mix the ingredients. baking isnt even on the recipe
23:24	devn	,clojure.string/union
23:24	clojurebot	#<set$union clojure.set$union@f78c3d>
23:24	technomancy	http://p.hagelb.org/mystery.gif
23:24	xeqi	,(require '[clojure.string :as clojure.string])
23:24	clojurebot	#<IllegalStateException java.lang.IllegalStateException: Alias clojure.string already exists in namespace sandbox, aliasing clojure.set>
23:24	devn	wow, that's nasty, but i mean, if you find yourself in that position
23:24	devn	you're absolutely fucking insane
23:25	brehaut	technomancy: do you have chords bound for all of these?
23:25	bbloom	ouch, now clojurebot is broken foreverz
23:25	xeqi	,(require 'clojure.string)
23:25	clojurebot	nil
23:25	bbloom	or at least until it's next reboot
23:25	xeqi	,clojure.string/union
23:25	clojurebot	#<set$union clojure.set$union@f78c3d>
23:25	devn	,bbloom i think it cleans up after itself every 10min or something
23:25	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: bbloom in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
23:25	xeqi	heh
23:25	devn	,(require [clojure.string :as clojure.string])
23:25	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.string, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
23:26	devn	,(require '[clojure.string :as clojure.string])
23:26	clojurebot	nil
23:26	bbloom	(def bbloom 'rules)
23:26	devn	clojure.string/replace
23:26	technomancy	brehaut: these are hand-typed, quality gif urls my friend
23:26	devn	,clojure.string/replace
23:26	clojurebot	#<string$replace clojure.string$replace@1179aa5>
23:26	devn	there we go
23:26	bbloom	dev ##bbloom should work just fine now
23:26	devn	technomancy: artisanal
23:26	technomancy	http://p.hagelb.org/tastes-mature.png
23:26	brehaut	technomancy: i need to build my own keyboard for high speed linking then
23:26	devn	"hello? operator?"
23:27	devn	"yes, i need a sweet gif. thanks"
23:27	devn	that'd be a great service. call and speak to a real human who will provide you with one of their curated, artisanal, raw denim, lofi gifs
23:28	brehaut	technomancy: i imagine the shopkeeper has keyboard pants under that apron
23:28	devn	Swag narwhal VHS blog fingerstache. Butcher squid distillery polaroid, Truffaut chillwave brunch chia umami Bushwick forage irony mustache. 8-bit High Life quinoa Pinterest. Jean shorts locavore seitan pop-up sustainable. Roof party farm-to-table readymade, sustainable leggings mlkshk ennui Truffaut biodiesel 90's organic cardigan.
23:29	devn	http://hipsum.co/
23:29	devn	hipster ipsum
23:29	technomancy	want to know what else is cool?
23:29	bbloom	devn: something about that girl's glasses offends me
23:30	brehaut	devn: its got to be. ive never seen truffaut twice in one paragraph before
23:30	bbloom	devn: maybe it's the black box on her nose
23:30	devn	bbloom: dude, that's so chillwave.
23:30	devn	super swag
23:30	technomancy	serving resources from disk normalizes double slashes in paths, but serving resources out of a jar does not.
23:30	technomancy	._.
23:30	bbloom	devn: i'm such a hipster that i'm too cool to have ever heard any of this hipster stuff you're making fun of
23:30	devn	technomancy: noooooooooo
23:31	xeqi	technomancy: why u make double slashes?
23:31	devn	http://meettheipsums.com/
23:31	devn	whoa. that is a lot of ipsums.
23:31	technomancy	xeqi: it wasn't me!
23:32	technomancy	well
23:32	technomancy	it might have been me in 2012 or something weird
23:32	technomancy	xeqi: https://github.com/technomancy/lein-survey/commit/7a33705b983f4bdfb31e7915e4d9030720b13044
23:33	devn	"No, the, uh, police chief of Malibu. A real reactionary. Dude, please!… Is this your homework, Larry? No ma'am, I didn't mean to give the impression that we're police exactly. We're hoping that it will not be necessary to call the police. I just want to say, sir, that we're both enormous—on a personal level. Chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature. Asian-American. Please. We want that money, Lebowski."
23:33	devn	Lebowski Ipsum
23:33	devn	This makes me actually want to do front end work
23:33	technomancy	devn: the #emacs bot has a ,apropos-dude command
23:33	technomancy	it is invaluable
23:34	apricots	is it possible to derestructure a map partially and get the remainder at the same time? i'm aiming for something like (let [{:keys [a b & therest]} {:a 12 :b 34 c:56}] [a b therest]) => [12 34 {:c 56}]
23:35	technomancy	why do they never increment the last segment of the JDK version numbers?
23:36	guns	,(alias 'clojure.set 'clojure.string)
23:36	clojurebot	nil
23:36	guns	,clojure.set/join
23:36	clojurebot	#<string$join clojure.string$join@1a89909>
23:36	guns	nice
23:36	guns	what is this crap
23:36	xuser	are lazy-seqs delayed only when used at the top level of a function?
23:38	xeqi	apricots: you can use :as to get the original map ##(let [{:keys [a b] :as all} {:a 12 :b 34 :c 56}] [a b all])
23:38	lazybot	⇒ [12 34 {:a 12, :c 56, :b 34}]
23:39	apricots	xeqi: cool thanks
23:40	xeqi	xuser: lazy seqs are delayed until they are needed
23:42	vimuser2	hm, when writing test code involving defmulti/defmethod, i often have to go through a couple of iterations before things are right..i run into an issue where i have to update a defmulti, but only way to do this is to ns-unmap it then re-def the methods and multi method….is there a better solution?
23:43	xuser	xeqi: yeah, I understand the concept, just having a hard time figuring out how they are used or work in clojure
23:44	guns	,(ns-unalias ns 'clojure.set)
23:44	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such var: clojure.core/eval>
23:44	guns	ns impl is gross
23:45	xeqi	guns: yep, it also prevents some awesome classloader stuff I wanted to do
23:45	xeqi	since the loaded ns list is global
23:48	noprompt	$seen ddellacosta
23:48	lazybot	ddellacosta was last seen joining on clojure 2 hours and 49 minutes ago.
23:48	ddellacosta	noprompt: ping
23:48	noprompt	ddellacosta: hey sorry if i misunderstood your patch earlier.
23:48	ddellacosta	no problem, as I said I should have framed it different from the get-go
23:49	noprompt	ddellacosta: i think it's a good idea to expose a way to get the route, i just wanted to understand your problem clearly.
23:49	ddellacosta	that's what I get for being in a hurry
23:49	noprompt	hahah
23:49	noprompt	no sweat
23:49	ddellacosta	noprompt: :-)
23:49	technomancy	vimuser2: I usually put (def mymulti nil) before defmulti during development
23:49	ddellacosta	noprompt: yeah, so, I'm in a meeting but let me ping you when I'm done if you're around
23:49	ddellacosta	noprompt: (otherwise we can just keep talking via the github thread, whatever)
23:49	noprompt	ddellacosta: i'll stick around just for you ;)
23:50	noprompt	ddellacosta: nah, let's chat here, it's more efficient
23:50	ddellacosta	noprompt: thanks!
23:50	noprompt	:)
23:50	ddellacosta	k
23:50	vimuser2	technomancy: hmm, thanks
23:55	noprompt	Raynes: omg. is the file/join shit ever gonna end...