#clojure – 2014-03-17

2014-03-17

00:00	stcredzero	bbloom: Since I started using pmap, I
00:00	bbloom	stcredzero: there's practically zero chance pmap is a good idea in a game ever
00:00	stcredzero	I've started seeing strange errors
00:00	l1x	SegFaultAX: sorry to bother you, how could i filter with some in a nested structure where my collection is a vector of maps
00:00	bbloom	maybe clojurebot has something...
00:00	dnolen_	seangrove: your basic idea isn't completely off base in my opinion - I haven't considered the transformer/path thing in the yr particularly context
00:00	bbloom	~pmap
00:00	clojurebot	pmap is not what you want
00:00	bbloom	there we go ^^ lol
00:00	l1x	:)
00:01	stcredzero	bbloom: even if you use (vec) to force evalutation in well defined stages?
00:01	dnolen_	seangrove: but I have considered how often the data you have is not in the form that a component needs yet you don't want to polluteyour app w/ logic about data transforms
00:01	bbloom	stcredzero: have you benchmarked pmap for your use case?
00:01	stcredzero	bbloom: I'm using pmap to handle execution in sub-grids.
00:01	dnolen_	seangrove: I was mostly thinking about :instrument + some transformer fn, but it seems like you're interested in this making less of a edge case and more central
00:02	bbloom	stcredzero: i'm willing to bet that pmap is making your game slower, try it and see
00:02	stcredzero	bbloom: the purpose is to be able to handle over 90% of the game loop in parallel, with only the leftovers that need global coordination in a normal serial game loop
00:02	seangrove	dnolen_: It makes it highly amenable to static analysis + really fantastic tooling
00:02	seangrove	dnolen_: You can get highly-functional apps with all the goodies going through this
00:03	stcredzero	bbloom: It's probably making it slower now, but I'm hoping to support 1000's of entities/players
00:03	bbloom	stcredzero: benchmark. benchmark. benchmark.
00:03	seangrove	The danger is I might be going down the angular route and recreating basic concepts in a declarative way and introducing a bunch of complexity
00:03	bbloom	seangrove: that's my fear :-P
00:03	seangrove	bbloom: It's on my mind, certainly ;)
00:03	bbloom	seangrove: declarative UI doesn't work for programmers, it works for tools
00:04	bbloom	seangrove: which is OK if that's your goal, but you have to be clear about that
00:04	stcredzero	bbloom: the global world thing and the sub-grid thing are polymorphic, and except for boundary crossings, everything can execute with utter independence
00:04	seangrove	bbloom: The iterative bootstrapping process so far has been very promising in that regar
00:04	stcredzero	bbloom: I don't have to benchmark an architectural/algorithmic choice. The point is to have multi-core concurrency
00:05	bbloom	stcredzero: you're not hearing me.... or clojurebot :-P how many cores do you have? 2? 4? the overhead of communicating between them is likely to dwarf any benefit you get if you have thousands of game elements and they are small enough jobs to run every frame
00:05	bbloom	stcredzero: i've worked in games, if you want multi-core concurrency, you're much much better off parallelizing your stages: ie have rendering and gameplay running in parallel
00:05	stcredzero	bbloom: you're not hearing me. Except for boundary crossings, there is no coordination between subgrids.
00:06	bbloom	stcredzero: pmap has coordination
00:06	bbloom	(doc pmap)
00:06	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f coll & colls]); Like map, except f is applied in parallel. Semi-lazy in that the parallel computation stays ahead of the consumption, but doesn't realize the entire result unless required. Only useful for computationally intensive functions where the time of f dominates the coordination overhead."
00:06	bbloom	note the "only useful for" message
00:06	dnolen_	seangrove: need to think about it some more - but it seems worth exploring.
00:06	bbloom	stcredzero: by definition, that's not true if you have thousands of entities
00:06	seangrove	dnolen_: It's all PoC still, but pretty excited about it.
00:07	stcredzero	bbloom: also, the game loop comes in stages which are parallelized. You're leaving out a step somewhere. As far as I know, things are going to be CPU bound.
00:09	stcredzero	bbloom: http://www.reddit.com/r/roguelikes/comments/1xa9rj/i_have_been_writing_a_pseudoroguelike_mmorpg_with/ -- for one thing, all entities are going to have interpreted source code that other entities can fsck with in real-time. Will be CPU-bound.
00:09	bbloom	stcredzero: even if that were the case, you don't want pmap
00:10	bbloom	stcredzero: pmap will create a ton of garbage, incur significant synchronization costs, and generally cost you far more CPU time than it will save you
00:10	stcredzero	bbloom: sub-grid game loops are basically conventional serial game loops. Things are architected so that the sub-grid loops are not coordinating (as much as possible) pmap just fires off each independent serial game loop in parallel
00:11	bbloom	stcredzero: i understand why you think it will be faster, but unless you benchmark it and tell me i'm wrong (i'm not) then we're both wasting our time
00:11	stcredzero	bbloom: however, it does make sense that pmap is creating a ton of garbage.
00:12	SegFaultAX	stcredzero: You're not understanding bbloom's point. pmap itself has inherent coordination overhead irrespective of what you might be using it for.
00:12	stcredzero	SegFaultAX: You can say the same for Erlang Actors. All of these things have inherent coordination overhead.
00:12	bbloom	stcredzero: except that that's a wildly different thing
00:13	SegFaultAX	stcredzero: That... has aboslutely nothing to do with what we're talking about.
00:13	bbloom	b/c erlang actors have independent GC heaps and run N-to-M threading
00:13	SegFaultAX	stcredzero: You can visualize a pmap as firing off a bunch of futures then joining on all of them.
00:14	stcredzero	bbloom: My understanding is that pmap is going to give me n to m threading. Yes, firing off a bunch of futures then joining. I don't have to have 100% utilization across time. If it looks like a sawtooth or square wave, that will be fine
00:14	bbloom	stcredzero: looking at your screenshots... is the game logic in cljs? or just the renderer?
00:14	SegFaultAX	stcredzero: Go measure, come back to us when you have a better sense of what's going on.
00:14	stcredzero	Just the renderer.
00:15	stcredzero	I can't really benchmark 1000's of entities until I have much more of the system built.
00:15	SegFaultAX	Then you're prematurely optimizing anyway.
00:15	bbloom	yes, that ^^
00:16	bbloom	stcredzero: you probably don't need the game entities to remain sorted, if that's the case you're paying significant overhead for the atomic operations done by the futures in the pmap impl
00:16	stcredzero	I can just change all of those pmap to map.
00:16	bbloom	core.async is likely to provide proper multi-threaded improvements
00:16	stcredzero	bbloom: remain sorted?
00:16	SegFaultAX	stcredzero: But you've got a bunch of things in your head that you're mixing together.
00:16	bbloom	stcredzero: pmap preserves the sequence's order
00:17	stcredzero	bbloom: why should that incur a significant overhead?
00:17	bbloom	go to your repl and type (source pmap)
00:17	stcredzero	SegfaultX: what things?
00:17	bbloom	maybe you'll understand then, if you don't you have a lot more to learn about multithreading performance
00:17	bbloom	and you're only going to learn that from BENCHMARKING
00:18	devn	free idea: wiki-style editing of docstrings
00:18	devn	collaborative docstring writing, with a more wikipedia-like interface for editing what the code does
00:18	SegFaultAX	devn: I wish that's what clojuredocs became.
00:19	devn	SegFaultAX: you know, i keep sitting around wondering how we ended up where we are
00:19	SegFaultAX	Instead it's a relic which high google ranking that hasn't been updated in years. :(
00:19	bbloom	stcredzero: sorry to be harsh, really just trying to help
00:19	stcredzero	bbloom: so you're saying it's the when that's the source of the overhead?
00:19	devn	clojuredoc is good, clojuredocs is ok
00:19	devn	but it's sad no one has just sit down and replaced clojuredocs
00:19	devn	i need to make that my mission.
00:19	SegFaultAX	I wonder if the maintainer would be willing to yield control of the domain.
00:20	stcredzero	bbloom: That pmap is polling over a bunch of things to see when they are all done?
00:20	bbloom	stcredzero: i'm saying that pmap is rarely appropriate and even if you custom-tailor a solution for your problem, you'll likely have a hard time getting a perf win
00:20	devn	apparently that was discussed at some point
00:20	devn	i dont know the details
00:20	bbloom	stcredzero: no, it's not polling, it's blocking in order.
00:20	bbloom	stcredzero: also, since your game is going to have a server component, you're better off running GAMES in parallel
00:20	bbloom	stcredzero: ie different game world instances run on different cores
00:20	devn	SegFaultAX: do you want to remake clojuredocs?
00:20	bbloom	stcredzero: that will yield dramatically better CPU utilization and even more dramatically simpler code
00:21	devn	AKA do you have time to work on it?
00:21	SegFaultAX	devn: Update it with 1.4 1.5 1.6
00:21	stcredzero	bbloom: so if I have 6 or so processors -- yes. I do plan on having different instances. That's part of the point I was making that you weren't paying attention to.
00:21	devn	SegFaultAX: forget the old site. let's just rewrite it and extract the content
00:22	devn	actually, you know what? i take back that idea. what we have is a rails application that could easily be updated
00:22	bbloom	pmap is still not the answer
00:22	stcredzero	bbloom: everything you've said fits in with my expectations, so unless yo ucan give me some big-O figures that aren't n(log32(n)) I don't think you quite have a point.
00:22	SegFaultAX	bbloom: Not worth the effort, dude.
00:22	bbloom	SegFaultAX: agreed
00:22	SegFaultAX	stcredzero: Go measure.
00:23	seangrove	Yeah, just benchmark, work from that
00:23	SegFaultAX	stcredzero: Show us that we're wrong with data.
00:23	devn	can someone catch me up on this conversation?
00:24	SegFaultAX	devn: Just some deep misunderstandings about how threads work (and pmap in particular)
00:24	trap_exit	is there a version of for, which takes two lists, as their _zip_, but not a cross product, i.e. lst1 = [1 2 3] lst2 = [1 2 3], I want [1 1], [2 2], [3 3], rather than [[1 1], [1 2], [1 3], [2 1], [2 2] [2 3], [3 1] [3 2] [3 3]]
00:24	stcredzero	if pmap is a good idea for independent CPU bound things, someone needs to give me a coordination cost that's worse than O(n*log32(n))
00:24	stcredzero	devn: no, that's wrong. These guys don't understand what I'm proposing.
00:24	devn	,(zipmap [1 2 3] [1 2 3])
00:25	clojurebot	{3 3, 2 2, 1 1}
00:25	stcredzero	devn: as evidenced by their bringing up separate instances. I will have separate instances.
00:25	SegFaultAX	(map vector [1 2 3] [:a :b :c])
00:25	SegFaultAX	,(map vector [1 2 3] [:a :b :c])
00:25	clojurebot	([1 :a] [2 :b] [3 :c])
00:25	devn	stcredzero: that too :)
00:25	devn	,(repeat 2 [1 2 3])
00:25	clojurebot	([1 2 3] [1 2 3])
00:25	trap_exit	so (for [ [a b] (map vector lst1 lst2)] ... ) ?
00:26	trap_exit	well, [1 2 3], [1 2 3] were specific lists; I want it work with generic lst1, lst2
00:26	SegFaultAX	trap_exit: (fn [a b] (map vector a b))
00:26	stcredzero	devn: I'm not after 100% parallelism. I'm looking for limited parallelism that looks like a sawtooth or square wave over time. Then the OS can coordinate between different instances to get me near 100% CPU utilization.
00:26	devn	are the same length?
00:26	trap_exit	not same length
00:26	bbloom	stcredzero: read the docstring again. you said thousands of items. the doc string literally explains that f needs to be expensive to justify it. if you are running f on thousands of items and you have less than tens of cores, and need real time responses, then pmap won't help you
00:26	trap_exit	but I only want to take pairs up to the shorter of the two
00:27	SegFaultAX	trap_exit: Then that's what you want.
00:27	bbloom	stcredzero: 100% CPU utilization isn't what you want...
00:27	SegFaultAX	trap_exit: What I just typed, that is.
00:27	stcredzero	bbloom: you re not p[aying attention. I'm running f on dozens of items to support 1000's of entities.
00:27	devn	stcredzero: i know we're typing into this thing that is supposed to contain smart people
00:27	devn	but i think we are just having a hard time communicating
00:28	devn	it sounds like there are reasons why you are choosing this approach
00:28	devn	but we dont know everything about your problem
00:28	SegFaultAX	,((fn [a b] (map vector a b)) [1 2 3] [:a :b :c :d])
00:28	clojurebot	([1 :a] [2 :b] [3 :c])
00:28	SegFaultAX	trap_exit: ^
00:29	devn	,(zipmap [1 2 3] [4 5 6 7])
00:29	clojurebot	{3 6, 2 5, 1 4}
00:29	devn	it might work... just saying...
00:29	SegFaultAX	devn: I think he wants a list of pairs.
00:29	stcredzero	bbloom: f is expensive -- damn expensive in CPU. The parallelism isn't for each entity. It's for a much smaller number of chunks of the world that are independent. Each f is just a serial game loop running over many entities, which you seem all fired to tell me is going to be so efficient. I'm counting on it!
00:29	bbloom	stcredzero: i scrolled up and find no mention of you making that point :-P
00:29	devn	SegFaultAX: sure, but im just saying that's close enough for jazz
00:29	stcredzero	bbloom: search for where I talk about sub-grids.
00:30	devn	heh
00:30	bbloom	stcredzero: i'm looking at it, but i'm not a mindreader
00:30	devn	"ask me about the time i cured world hunger"
00:30	bbloom	stcredzero: still, even with dozens, i don't think you want pmap
00:30	stcredzero	bbloom: admit it, you were taling the whole time assuming I'm talking about paralleism per-entity.
00:30	devn	kidding of course, just sounded funny
00:31	devn	stcredzero: dude, this isn't a conspiracy
00:31	bbloom	stcredzero: i did think that, however, i still don't think pmap is what you want
00:31	bbloom	stcredzero: for every single reason i've listed
00:31	SegFaultAX	stcredzero: Why are you still not measuring?
00:31	stcredzero	bbloom: show me where pmap is costlier than O(n*log32(n)) and you win. Instantly
00:31	stcredzero	bbloom: I can't measure yet.
00:31	devn	algorithm designs are meant to be tested
00:31	bbloom	stcredzero: if you can't measure yet, you can't optimize yet
00:31	bbloom	stcredzero: and constants matter
00:31	bbloom	a lot
00:31	stcredzero	bbloom: I can design.
00:31	bbloom	especially in threading
00:32	devn	stcredzero: see my previous comment
00:32	bbloom	stcredzero: i've been writing multithreaded web services AND games for years and i'd like to think i'm pretty good at it. not once has my first design been within many orders of magnitude of the winning design
00:32	devn	amen
00:33	bbloom	hell, i've fixed multithreading bugs in the tools for finding multithreading bugs in xbox games
00:33	bbloom	and even that took a few tries :-P
00:33	stcredzero	bbloom: I used to say that stuff to meetup audiences.
00:34	bbloom	stcredzero: i don't know why you think we're out to get you
00:34	bbloom	we're trying to help
00:34	stcredzero	bbloom: also in your commentary, are you assuming there's any coordination between f's?
00:34	bbloom	nope
00:34	stcredzero	bbloom: so you're telling me that the coordination is O(n*log(n)) but that the constant factors are ungodly huge.
00:35	bbloom	stcredzero: i'm done arguing until you come back with numbers
00:35	SegFaultAX	stcredzero: No, he's telling you that it isn't worth it if the overhead of `f` applied to each chunk isn't greater than the coordination overhead of pmap.
00:35	kras	HI Again. Any recommendations for network/graph library in clojure? Something equivalent to networkx in python.
00:35	seangrove	stcredzero: bbloom is a good guy, worht listening to, even if he comes across as borderline crazy ;)
00:36	bbloom	seangrove: surely you know i'm full on crazy by now!
00:36	stcredzero	I'm suspecting that no one knows what the ovehead of pmap is.
00:36	trap_exit	SegFaultAX: noted, thanks!
00:36	SegFaultAX	stcredzero: Well, that's because it depends on lots of stuff.
00:37	bbloom	stcredzero: no one is guessing b/c we're explicitly telling YOU not to guess
00:38	SegFaultAX	stcredzero: Mind it could be possible that pmap nets you a gain in performance (unlikely, but possible) but some very specific conditions have to be met before that's at all likely.
00:38	SegFaultAX	And even if those conditions are met, pmap is still probably not the tool you need for a tight game loop.
00:38	SegFaultAX	(It's too broad a hammer)
00:38	stcredzero	SegFaultAX: That informatino would be much more useful than the catch-22 you're presenting me with. I'm trying to come up with a new architecture.
00:39	SegFaultAX	pmap is a sledge and you need a ball pene to have consistent processing time per frame.
00:39	SegFaultAX	stcredzero: How is "go measure and come back with data" a catch 22?
00:39	stcredzero	SegFaultAX: So you guy's position is that I shouldn't even try/that I should benchmark something I don't have completed to benchmark, and that I'm damned because I'm prematurely optimizing. Of course I'm going to measure the thing!
00:40	SegFaultAX	stcredzero: Then why are we arguing? It's not like s/pmap/map/g is that hard to type.
00:41	stcredzero	But I'm ddamned for trying it in the first place as a premature optimizer. You're telling me you have a good a-priori guess that I should just have serial game loops. I'm arguing because I don't feel like you were inclined to listen and just wanted to play the "inform the noob" game and so overlayed a bunch of noob assumptions over what I was doing instead of actually listenting to my proposal.
00:42	SegFaultAX	stcredzero: Ok. Let us know when you have measurements. Good luck!
00:42	stcredzero	As evidenced by the assumptsions that f would be cheap, that parallelism was per-entity, etc.
00:44	stcredzero	What would be actually helpful is to let me know what things pmap is not going to like in more detail.
00:50	technomancy	stcredzero: answering questions on IRC is largely a matter of pattern matching
00:57	kras	HI Again. Any recommendations for network/graph library in clojure? Something equivalent to networkx in python.
00:58	kras	I don't require many algorithms, performance is the prime criterion
00:59	kras	titanium, loom???
00:59	lazybot	kras: Yes, 100% for sure.
00:59	stcredzero	technomancy: I have it when people keep insisting I'm saying something I'm not, especially in the face of my informing them I'm saying what I'm actually saying.
00:59	stcredzero	"have it" is mistyped v = t
01:00	technomancy	stcredzero: haven't been paying attention to the discussion, just throwing that out there
01:00	beamso	kras: https://github.com/prismatic/plumbing ?
01:00	technomancy	I know my first instinct when I hear newcomers to Clojure ask about records is just to tell them not to use them
01:01	stcredzero	technomancy: I think your comment was very apt.
01:01	technomancy	(even if I have no idea what the actual answer is)
01:02	stcredzero	technomancy: because they were pattern matching, getting the details of my proposal wrong, then arguing from their pattern-match based assumptions
01:03	technomancy	hey, it's a 95%-effective approach
01:03	stcredzero	technomancy: then when I tried to inform them of their incorrect assumptions, they used that as evidence that I don't know what things are...like threading.
01:03	stcredzero	My esoteric projects are 5% ideas.
01:03	technomancy	(this is why we have bots)
01:06	stcredzero	technomancy: People are behaving more like bots, and the implicit assumptions is that everyone just mechanically falls into cubbyholes that are even more efficiently delineated for us through the information dissemination power of the INternet
01:08	technomancy	everyone does it
01:08	technomancy	the real world is too complicated to function any other way
01:08	technomancy	you see someone dress a certain way and you make assumptions about their personality
01:09	technomancy	because it's far more efficient than finding out for yourself
01:09	amalloy	technomancy: he left after cubbyholing everyone
01:09	technomancy	amalloy: well you know what they say about people who leave in the middle of IRC conversations
01:10	amalloy	they rarely get answers they're happy with?
01:10	technomancy	that they bloody well should learn how bouncers work
01:10	zspencer	ZNC + irsssi
01:11	technomancy	kind of annoyed that he ended up thinking I was just encouraging him
01:11	beamso	or screen + irssi
01:12	zspencer	ZNC allows multi-client so you can limechat in when you're afk
01:12	technomancy	tmux allows mosh though
01:12	technomancy
01:12	zspencer	But yes, a screen/tmux terminal is good stuff
01:19	bbloom	technomancy: he just switched to defensive mode instantly and then demanded answers to questions that showed that we had correctly cubby holed him :-P
02:14	stcredzero	What's the fastest way to go from a map that contains a bunch of defrecord objects as values to a collection that contains futures executing functions on those values?
02:53	noidi	if you want to retain the keys, then (into {} (for [[k v] m] [k (f v)]) is a common approach to mapping over a map's values
02:54	noidi	if you only need the values then (map f (vals m))
02:54	noidi	AFAIK that's fastest as in fastest to type in the editor :)
03:09	antonv	hi
03:09	antonv	any cider users here?
03:10	wink	even if it's St. Patrick's Day, I'll wait a few hours with that :)
03:11	antonv	when I execute an expression with C-x C-e and the expression has error, then a stack trace buffer shows up
03:11	antonv	is there a shortcut to close it quickly, without havign to switch to that buffer by C-o first?
03:12	antonv	C-x o I mean
03:12	antonv	in SLIME I can just press q
03:12	antonv	and the debugger buffer closes
03:13	antonv	but in cider I must switch to the buffer - tedious
03:15	antonv	OK, added (setq cider-auto-select-error-buffer t) to the .emacs
03:15	antonv	not the error buffer is selected automatically, I just press q and it closes
05:43	chare	do you guys use intellij
05:43	chare	or use just cursive?
05:51	wink	LightTable for Clojure and Lua, IDEA for all other languages
05:58	clgv	eclipse/counterclockwise
07:11	Pate_	how is Clojure's multimethod support implemented, specifically the dispatch function?
07:12	nightfly	probably with a hashmap and lambdas
07:12	Pate_	found this: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/0b73494c3c855e54b1da591eeb687f24f608f346/src/jvm/clojure/lang/MultiFn.java
07:13	Pate_	these is an IPersistentMap methodTable that caches the "preferred method" for a given dispatch.
07:14	Pate_	sorry, the methodTable has all the possible methods and preferTable caches the preferred method.
07:35	clgv	Pate_: why do you ask for implementation details? just for learning and understanding?
07:35	Pate_	yes.
07:36	Pate_	I wanted to know how dispatch methods are implemented, because I felt they were functionally equivalent to an if...else on some type condition. And basically they are, but the result is cached.
07:43	pepijndevos	What is the relation between :gen-class, :aot and :main? Do I need all 3 to get a class with public static void main in it?
07:45	sm0ke	pepijndevos: gen-class is one way for defining java classes in clojure, :aot and :main are leinigen specific
07:46	clgv	Pate_: yeah in prinziple they are like a "cond" or "case" but open for dynamic extension
07:46	pepijndevos	sm0ke, right, but if I want to do lein uberjar, I'll need both aot, and gen-class with a (def -main), right?
07:46	sm0ke	pepijndevos: in clojure evrything is compiled to bytecode at the moment it is required, :aot is for doing it ahead of time
07:46	pepijndevos	runnable uberjar that is
07:46	clgv	pepijndevos: yes. :gen-class in the namespace of the -main method and :main and :aot in project.clj
07:46	sm0ke	pepijndevos: yes that is correct, if you want to invoke it like 'java -jar myjar.jar'
07:47	pepijndevos	cool. thanks
07:48	pepijndevos	Was unsure if gen-class was still needed with :aot. I guess ahead of time compilation does not nececerily mean generating classes.
08:00	gfredericks	well it doesn't mean generating the particular class that gen-class generates
08:00	gfredericks	it does generate lots of other classes
08:02	gfredericks	usually the point of using gen-class is to make a class with a .main method
08:02	gfredericks	and you don't have one of those otherwise
08:38	jespada	any hint/example on how to use log4j triggering-policy (SizeBasedTriggeringPolicy) trying to add that to https://github.com/aphyr/riemann/blob/master/src/riemann/logging.clj#L82
08:39	jespada	failing..https://gist.github.com/jespada/729531b539ff6d556c1e
08:51	AeroNotix	w00t just bought my EuroClojure ticket!
08:52	AeroNotix	http://euroclojure.com/2014/
08:52	AeroNotix	anyone else going?
09:55	wagjo	AeroNotix: I'm going
09:55	AeroNotix	wagjo: in KRK already or ?
09:56	wagjo	AeroNotix: 3 hours by car from my place
09:56	wagjo	AeroNotix: It was an offer I could not refuse :)
09:57	AeroNotix	wagjo: indeed :) Our office is going (3 clojure people!) woot
09:57	AeroNotix	looking forward to it
09:57	hyPiRion	I'm tempted, but money
09:58	AeroNotix	hyPiRion: where you at?
09:58	mpenet	going too, not sure from where yet though
09:58	AeroNotix	Norway iirc? hyPiRion
09:58	hyPiRion	Oh hey I'm still a student at that moment I guess
09:58	hyPiRion	yeah
09:58	mpenet	ppl going are staying where (hotel)?
09:58	wagjo	AeroNotix: Well you have it like 15 minutes, it would be shame not to go :)
09:58	AeroNotix	hyPiRion: dude, 70EUR
09:58	AeroNotix	wagjo: it's right down the road from my flat
09:58	AeroNotix	:D
09:58	hyPiRion	AeroNotix: that's not the costly part though. Planes and hotel is the main issue
09:59	mpenet	Hotel are kind of cheap there
09:59	AeroNotix	but yeah, places are cheap
10:00	hyPiRion	ah, you guys
10:01	mpenet	planes on the other hand... not sure a lot of low cost go to Krakow
10:03	hyPiRion	dang, I'm planning to move around that time too. hnggg
10:17	AeroNotix	n_b-:
10:17	AeroNotix	oops
10:17	AeroNotix	depends where you're coming from in EU
10:17	AeroNotix	from the UK, really, reall cheap.
10:18	hyPiRion	Yeah, it wasn't that expensive. I'm just scarred after the conj plane ticket I guess
10:19	AeroNotix	hyPiRion: where are you coming from?
10:19	hyPiRion	TRH
10:20	hyPiRion	Trondheim
10:20	AeroNotix	aha
10:21	hyPiRion	It's like 160-180 € for a return ticket
10:24	AeroNotix	Not too bad, but still.
10:40	devn	ticket prices were bad for me
10:40	devn	I think I paid 630USD
10:40	AeroNotix	devn: you're coming from the US?
10:40	devn	and I'm in the US
10:40	AeroNotix	to KRK?
10:40	devn	no, to SFO
10:40	AeroNotix	ah
10:40	devn	sorry, i caught the tail end of this conversation
10:40	devn	i saw "conj plane ticket"
10:40	devn	and assumed you were talking about clojure/west
10:40	AeroNotix	well, we were just talking generally :)
10:41	AeroNotix	primarily about euroclojure
10:41	devn	i realllllly want to go
10:41	AeroNotix	then do!
10:41	devn	im going to have to submit a CFP
10:41	devn	when does the CFP end?
10:41	devn	poland looks beautiful.
10:41	AeroNotix	I don't know what a CFP is
10:41	devn	Call For Proposals
10:41	AeroNotix	ohh April 16th
10:41	devn	I'd need to give a talk if I want to go
10:41	AeroNotix	iirc
10:41	devn	my company will pay if I go that route
10:42	AeroNotix	awesome, do eeet
10:42	devn	otherwise, I've spent too much on conferences this year already
10:42	AeroNotix	:
10:42	devn	yeah man, im thinking about giving a hoplon talk
10:42	katratxo	cemerick: ping?
10:42	BartAdv	hoplon talk would be great
10:42	clojurebot	Pardon?
10:43	devn	BartAdv: yeah, i've been getting into it. My friend Matt was working on this: https://github.com/mathias/gnar
10:43	devn	He built that in like a day with no hoplon experience
10:43	devn	"Rapid Prototyping in Hoplon"
10:43	devn	something like that is kind of what I'm thinking
10:46	devn	so, now that we're talking about /that/ plane ticket... 1,622 USD
10:46	AeroNotix	yikes
10:46	AeroNotix	I just take a walk and boom I'm there :)
10:46	devn	not a big surprise honestly
10:47	devn	haha
10:47	devn	travel time is like 13hours
10:47	AeroNotix	ouch ><
10:47	devn	probably more like 16 including getting to the airport and all of that
10:48	devn	but that's fine. i'd love to see poland
10:48	AeroNotix	luckily in KRK the airport is 10 minutes away from the centre
10:48	devn	i think i'll probably go for an extra week
10:48	AeroNotix	and there's a train which comes directly from the terminal
10:48	devn	AeroNotix: are you in poland?
10:48	AeroNotix	I am, yeah.
10:48	AeroNotix	I'm not Polish, though.
10:48	devn	ah, cool. hi! :)
10:48	AeroNotix	hi :)
10:49	devn	i'd love to chat more, but i need to get some work done. slow morning for me so far.
10:49	devn	see you poland! :)
10:49	AeroNotix	you too, cya!
11:36	katox	just opened mwjs to see pete hunt citing rich hickey ;) http://mtnwestjs.org/live
11:37	arrdem	oh awesome, we got accepted for GSoC 14 :D
11:37	mdrogalis	arrdem: :)
11:38	arrdem	mdrogalis: :P it's internship applciation season so I'm not entirely neutral here
11:38	arrdem	haxxing clojure for a summer would be pretty sweet.
11:40	mdrogalis	arrdem: Hah, nice
11:43	ambrosebs	arrdem: are you a student?
11:44	arrdem	ambrosebs: yarp
11:44	arrdem	ambrosebs: junior at U of Texas at Austin
11:45	ambrosebs	arrdem: about 4 days left until student applications close FYI
11:45	arrdem	ambrosebs: I'm well aware.
11:45	eric_normand	ambrosebs: how's the mentor search going?
11:45	arrdem	ambrosebs: that's one of the reasons I'm mentioning it here :P
11:46	ambrosebs	eric_normand: picked up a few helpers :)
11:46	ambrosebs	eric_normand: thanks for the help
11:46	seubert	arrdem: congrats, you survived SXSW for another year
11:46	seubert	:P
11:46	arrdem	seubert: meh... two of my friends got hit in the "accident".
11:46	seubert	arrdem: :( :( :(
11:46	arrdem	are okay, but met.
11:46	eric_normand	ambrosebs: you're welcome. that's what the gazette is for
11:46	arrdem	*meh
11:47	seubert	arrdem: i was really close to going down there that night, glad i didn't
11:47	seubert	glad your friends are ok
11:47	seubert	brutal shit
11:48	ambrosebs	arrdem: are you applying this year?
11:48	arrdem	ambrosebs: probably. just pinged deepbluelambda to chat about his lightweight clojure idea
11:49	arrdem	ambrosebs: looking for an excuse to play with Clojure compilers over the summer tbh :P
11:49	ambrosebs	arrdem: great
11:58	cemerick	dnolen_: FYI, https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/0c7b31ada01237de33cef77b817ccef3f2b3576d changed closure/build so that it never returns a string containing the compilation output; (output-one-file ...) isn't in a return position.
12:00	katratxo	cemerick: do yo think this friend change makes sense? https://gist.github.com/iperdomo/9596103
12:01	cemerick	katratxo: I have it open in a tab, but haven't looked at it yet.
12:02	katratxo	cemerick: ok, no problem it's not urgent ;)
12:03	dnolen_	cemerick: fixed in master now, thanks
12:04	cemerick	dnolen_: thanks; new patch on 656 coming your way right after I rebase and check against master again
12:18	juxovec	What you would do if function has too many args? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/22459629/what-to-do-when-function-has-too-many-arguments
12:21	bbloom	juxovec: much more info needed about your problem
12:23	dpritchett_	i'm no clojure expert but my first thought is "write functions that don't need six parameters". I'm sure your actual problem is more complicated than that though
12:23	juxovec	bbloom: right now my controller gives to view results from model + actual data for form + data for grid orderby orderbydirection.
12:24	juxovec	It goes slowly, in the beginning only one argument was needed but it grows over time.
12:26	clgv	juxovec: do you need something like that? https://github.com/guv/clojure.options
12:28	juxovec	clgv: what would help can be named non-optional args which are checked on compile time
12:29	dnolen_	juxovec: #1 is the only acceptable solution in my opinion. If you really want compile time checking you should look at Typed Clojure
12:31	juxovec	dnolen_: I tried to add Typed Clojure to the project and my productivity went down maybe 60 %. Now I use only schema where I check most important dataflows. But thanks.
12:34	S11001001	“its called FAIL LOUD DESIGN... its designed to attract human admin attention if this fails”
12:35	S11001001	"200 lines of code and zero added features beats 100 lines of code and 5 features"
12:42	shep-werk	juxovec: In OO world, we usually find collections of parameters can be wrapped into a cohesive object
12:42	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
12:43	shep-werk	so, stick them all into a map :-)
12:44	Raynes	juxovec: You measure your productivity in actual percentages?
12:44	Raynes	Also, https://stackoverflow.com/questions/22459629/what-to-do-when-function-has-too-many-arguments is you?
12:44	dpritchett_	Yeah as a Rubyist I was tempted to recommend using a closure to store a pre-configured object and manipulating it directly
12:44	dpritchett_	but I am not gonna contradict dnolen_
12:45	juxovec	Raynes: it just seems to me that with Typed Clojure I need three times more time to do anything
12:52	bbloom	juxovec: when you have too many arguments, you have to first decide if you need to simplify your problem or simplify your solution (or both!)
12:52	bbloom	juxovec: are the arguments related to the problem domain or the solution domain?
12:53	juxovec	as I wrote, I pass arguments from controller to view, its couple of results from models + some data for ordering and filtering data in datagrid (all are validated and modified query params)
13:16	mdrogalis	Can someone please help me write a little macro to do this? https://gist.github.com/MichaelDrogalis/9603819
13:16	mdrogalis	I'm stuck on figuring out how to be able to use x by name in the body.
13:17	justin_smith	mdrogalis: ~'arg iirc
13:17	justin_smith	~'x in your case
13:17	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
13:17	justin_smith	now to actually try writing that macro
13:18	mdrogalis	Thanks, justin_smith.
13:19	danno1	If strings are interned already aren't keywords irrelevant?
13:20	llasram	danno1: Not all strings are interned, and interned string != identical object
13:21	llasram	,((juxt = identical?) '^:a foo '^:b foo)
13:21	clojurebot	[true false]
13:21	danno1	liasram: Oh so, so strings can be instantiated?
13:21	technomancy	plus strings are final
13:21	llasram	Yeah, that too...
13:21	technomancy	so you can't make them ifn
13:21	justin_smith	mdrogalis: (defmacro guarded [val & body] `(when-let [~'x ~val] (when (not= ~'x ::poison-pill) ~@body)))
13:21	justin_smith	works for me in my repl
13:22	llasram	mdrogalis, justin_smith: Why not just use an autogensym?
13:22	justin_smith	llasram: (guarded 2 (+ x 1))
13:22	llasram	Oh, specifically for evil. Got it
13:22	justin_smith	should return 3
13:22	clojurebot	Excuse me?
13:22	justin_smith	that's what I assumed, at least :)
13:23	mdrogalis	Hmm
13:25	mdrogalis	Works great, thanks justin_smith!
13:25	justin_smith	np, I made something similar for an ill-considered DSL ages ago
13:25	justin_smith	I reconsidered the technique, but will never forget how it was done
13:25	justin_smith	lol
13:26	justin_smith	next time someone asks I should just be like "I know how to do that, but I'm a changed man general, I don't do that kind of work any more"
13:27	justin_smith	the evils I have commited against hygeine will haunt me forever
13:27	mdrogalis	Yeahhh.
13:27	llasram	Mmm, context
13:27	justin_smith	heh
13:28	mdrogalis	I was stuck on trying to pass the entire bindings vector to the macro.
13:28	mdrogalis	Obviously couldn't unroll it easily.
13:29	justin_smith	yeah, that's what I was doing, basically making a custom bindings vector
13:30	mdrogalis	Ah
13:37	dnolen_	seangrove: ping
13:38	seangrove	dnolen_: pong
13:39	dnolen_	seangrove: so read over your copy from yesterday a few more times - it is very close to some ideas I had floating around (I was getting thrown off the code since there are some types :)
13:39	seangrove	dnolen_: It's all shambolic right now, I don't expect to keep much code from this phase, but the ideas are panning out really well for tooling.
13:39	dnolen_	seangrove: for higher level tooling your approach makes sense - breaking the relationship between the structure needed by a component and what actually appears in the app state. definitely something I allude to in my tutorials - but your taking it a bit further.
13:40	dnolen_	seangrove: in any case, I like how simple the idea is really - I would probably just write a couple more drafts to make the point clearer
13:41	dnolen_	seangrove: your org file made much more sense to me than the other materials
13:41	seangrove	dnolen_: Cheers, appreciate it. I think if I remove serializable notes from the code, it can simplify it further (no need for the registry, etc.). I can introduce that later.
13:44	upwardindex	Is performance and java interop the two most important reasons for protocols?
13:44	justin_smith	upwardindex: they also help a lot with the fact that clojure namespaces cannot be recursive
13:45	technomancy	upwardindex: yeah
13:45	justin_smith	ie. a.b cannot require a.c while a.c also requires a.b
13:45	justin_smith	with a protocol that both can see, you can flatten out the cyclic dep
13:46	technomancy	eh; you can also do that with multimethods and resolve
13:46	technomancy	s/and/or/
13:46	justin_smith	which brings us back to performance of course
13:46	justin_smith	fair enough :)
13:47	llasram	upwardindex: And the fact that protocols may be `reify`d
13:47	upwardindex	technomancy: justin_smith: thanks! I'll keep using multimethods and not worry too much about not feeling the need for protocols :D
13:51	gf3	Is there cool pattern matching to match any item? e.g.:
13:51	gf3	(remove #{[:b _]} [[:a 1] [:b 2] [:c 3]])
13:52	gf3	for _
13:52	rasmusto	gf3: https://github.com/clojure/core.match ?
13:52	amalloy	gf3: (remove (comp #{:b} first))
13:52	rasmusto	amalloy: hah, or that
13:53	gf3	amalloy: Balls, was hoping for something a bit more declarative
13:53	gf3	amalloy: Thank you
13:54	dnolen_	gf3: you could write a little function sugar over core.match
13:54	amalloy	more declarative? i hereby declare that elements whose first item is :b shall not be permitted in this list!
13:54	llasram	heh
13:54	gf3	amalloy: haaah haaahahaha
13:54	amalloy	seriously though i don't see how #{[:b _]} would be any more "declarative"
13:55	amalloy	it's more...recognizable, in that the shape of the solution hints at the shape of the problem
13:55	dnolen_	(pat [:b _]) -> (fn [x] (match [x] [:b _] true :else false)) or whatever
13:56	gf3	dnolen_: Cool
13:57	dnolen_	gf3: you get all the fancy matching stuff for free o' course, maps etc.
13:57	gf3	dnolen_: Indeed, and it works ootb if I specify an exact match which is neat
14:02	dbasch	is there a tried-and-true way to do user/pass management in a compojure web app?
14:03	justin_smith	dbasch: basic auth, or setting a cookie, or?
14:03	dbasch	justin_smith: mostly the db side of things
14:03	Raynes	I use environment variables for pretty much all configuration of my web apps.
14:04	dbasch	the one thing I don't want to reinvent if possible is storing/looking up users and hashed passwords
14:04	justin_smith	dbasch: use a method that checks a hash, store the login and hash in the db
14:04	justin_smith	there is not much to reinvent there
14:05	justin_smith	unless what you are really asking about is a db schema dsl / lib
14:05	dbasch	justin_smith: that's what I'll do, I just wondered if there was a small library that did it already
14:05	technomancy	...and by hash he means bcrypt
14:05	dbasch	technomancy: or scrypt
14:05	technomancy	right; just not sha1 or md5
14:05	technomancy	just so we're clear on that
14:06	dbasch	technomancy: exactly
14:06	justin_smith	technomancy: unless you mean basic auth, bcrypt is not appropriate for basic auth, it is good for log in once and store a "logged in" cookie
14:06	technomancy	~guards
14:06	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
14:06	dbasch	seangrove: retweeted
14:07	seangrove	dbasch: Looks like there might be something in lib-noir http://www.luminusweb.net/docs/security.md
14:07	seangrove	I don't think I'd bother with it too much, but who knows
14:07	dbasch	seangrove: I'll just do it myself, it's fun anyway
14:07	justin_smith	we had a minor debacle where I set up what was supposed to be a "generic authentication field" for our modeling system, and someone decided to attach it to basic auth (which gets checked on every single request) and performance was really really bad.
14:08	technomancy	ouch
14:08	dbasch	justin_smith: I'm giving the user a token that lasts for a while, so that's not an issue for me. This is an api
14:09	justin_smith	great, then bcrypt is awesome for that
14:09	firefaux	does anybody know how I would go about making a "pointer" in a data structure node on disk to another node?
14:09	firefaux	I know I could use filenames, but those would vary in length
14:09	justin_smith	sounds like you want a synthetic identifier
14:10	justin_smith	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrogate_key
14:10	justin_smith	uuid is good for that kind of thing, that can be portable across boxes / db engines if need be
14:11	firefaux	isn't UUID for identifying disc partitions?
14:11	justin_smith	it is for anything that needs to be universally unique
14:11	firefaux	ok
14:11	firefaux	and java has an API for that?
14:11	firefaux	ah yes
14:12	firefaux	java.util.UUID
14:12	justin_smith	ie. you know two different systems / components won't generate conflicting ones, so you can refer to them seamlessly on distributed setups
14:12	justin_smith	yeah, it has a method to create random ones
14:12	justin_smith	and they are big enough that conflicts are vanishingly unlikely
14:13	justin_smith	,(java.util.UUID/randomUUID)
14:13	clojurebot	#uuid "796d597c-3204-4854-b218-43ea2a710cd0"
14:13	justin_smith	,(str (java.util.UUID/randomUUID))
14:13	clojurebot	"d2e164c6-c08f-4756-84a1-9f25af3183eb"
14:14	firefaux	cool
14:14	firefaux	but then how do I actually assign a UUID to a file?
14:15	justin_smith	probably via a relational db?
14:16	firefaux	so doesn't that mean the relational db would have to store all of the filenames?
14:17	firefaux	along with their associated UUID?
14:17	justin_smith	it sounds like it would be a good idea for you to step back and design the data schema / architecture before solidifying things though (not really knowing any of your details of course)
14:17	justin_smith	right
14:17	firefaux	okay
14:17	justin_smith	or you could have a function from filename to UUID - it really depends on your constraints
14:17	justin_smith	ie. what kind of dir structure / naming convention limits you can / should impose etc. etc.
14:18	firefaux	well this is for an assignment, creating a BTree which maps String keys to URLs
14:18	firefaux	and I can set a reasonable limit on the key size
14:19	firefaux	but obviously URLs must be variable length
14:19	firefaux	of course, I could always use something like tinyurl...
14:19	justin_smith	also a URL does not have to map directly to the directory structure (though that is of course simpler)
14:19	firefaux	I was thinking I would put URLs in their own files
14:20	firefaux	and have a "pointer" in the datastructure to those files
14:20	justin_smith	you could also use a hashing system of some sort (which is what tinyurl is doing)
14:21	justin_smith	and of course their urls are not referring to a directory structure directly, there is a db in the middle, mapping hashes to strings
14:23	amalloy	what are the cool kids using for oauth these days?
14:25	TimMc	amalloy: Clients, or providers?
14:26	justin_smith	clj-oauth here for clients, dunno if we are cool
14:26	justin_smith	https://github.com/caribou/twitter-api
14:26	firefaux	maybe I'll just keep my whole database in one randomaccessfile, so I can just use offsets and not worry about files
14:26	justin_smith	firefaux: do you have a reason not to use a real db?
14:27	amalloy	TimMc: client
14:27	firefaux	justin_smith: well I have to implement everything myself, pretty much
14:27	justin_smith	firefaux: oh, because it is an assignment?
14:27	amalloy	goes to show how clueless i am about oauth - don't even know how to ask my questions right :P
14:28	firefaux	justin_smith: right. I can use whatever resources I want, but the whole assignment is basically making a database
14:35	augustl	what's a good way to get everyting in a file from after a blank line? I have a file with "header\nheader\nheader\n\nbody here\nhello, world", I want to extact the body
14:36	augustl	currently I do a line-seq and join afterwards, seems a bit wasteful..
14:36	dpritchett_	drop-while ?
14:36	amalloy	augustl: maybe you don't want it all as one giant string anyway, if you're worried about the waste of using line-seq+join
14:36	augustl	dpritchett_: yeah, that's what I use on the line-seq
14:36	rasmusto	I was going to say line-seq and drop-while +join
14:37	augustl	amalloy: hmm, good point. I'll look into not joining it at all
14:37	augustl	the reason I make it into a single string is so I can put it into hiccup
14:37	amalloy	hiccup is happy to take lists
14:38	augustl	makes sense :) I'll investigate.
14:39	gf3	dnolen_: Where can I find more info on undo managers and snapshottable UI w/ OM/React?
14:39	gf3	dnolen_: Finding mostly twitter threads :)
14:39	gf3	(Sorry if double post, my VPN died)
14:40	dnolen_	gf3: there's really not much to read - you get it for free
14:45	mr-foobar	gf3: In github.com/sgrove/omchaya there is an example history player. The impln basically made every state change as an event, which could be acted on.
14:47	gf3	mr-foobar: Cool thx
14:50	augustl	does it make sense to (doall (map fn an-io-seq)), to ensure that the map happens immediately, not lazily after the io stream object is closed?
14:50	rasmusto	augustl: that works, but you may want to use doseq for side-effects
14:51	augustl	rasmusto: my map is pure, I just have to ensure it evaluates while the IO object is open
14:51	amalloy	augustl: that is one of the few defensible uses of doall. there are other approaches worth considering too, though
14:51	rasmusto	er, s/side-effects/reading
14:51	augustl	amalloy: I'd love to hear about some of the other approaches :)
14:51	rasmusto	augustl: ah, nm. Doall makes more sense. I had everything mixed up :p
14:52	augustl	rasmusto: ah :)
14:52	amalloy	eg, instead of returning a sequence from your function, pass a "continuation" sort of function into it: "here's what to do with the seq of things, please do it before you return [and thus close the iostream]"
14:53	augustl	amalloy: I see, that makes sense
14:53	augustl	that also enables the memory usage benefits of lazy seqs
14:53	amalloy	it kinda turns things inside out, so it's a bit awkward. but at some point you'll have to realize the results of the map, and this lets you do it inside the resource's dynamic scope
14:54	amalloy	that's really how with-open works, in a way. (with-open [r (foo)] (f r)) is a macro, but it could have been a function: (with-open* f (foo))
14:55	hiredman	augustl: http://ce2144dc-f7c9-4f54-8fb6-7321a4c318db.s3.amazonaws.com/reducers.html
14:56	augustl	hiredman: thanks! I never use reducers, since I'm not familiar with them.. Will read.
15:00	augustl	hmm, I currently run a multi-line regex on my joined multi-line string. I don't suppose there are any ways to match a regexp over a seq as if it was one string..
15:00	augustl	a seq of strings that represent lines
15:08	augustl	I'm screwed.. My syntax highlighter wants (multi-line) strings, so I can't just use the lines from line-seq directly.
15:15	aaronj1335	hey folks is (into {} ...) the fastest way to make a hash map from a long sequence?
15:16	aaronj1335	my quick little benchmarks suggest `into` and (apply hash-map ...) are the best
15:20	Cr8	into will do (persistent! (reduce conj! (transient orig-coll) input-coll)) on transientable types
15:21	Cr8	hash-map calls Persistent
15:21	Cr8	hash-map calls PersistentHashMap's create method
15:21	Cr8	which is basically the java equivalent of the above https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/1798b449b84c86a9b243bd79929a3a619194aa24/src/jvm/clojure/lang/PersistentHashMap.java#L52-L59
15:24	Cr8	so I'd just consider them equivalent.
15:26	aaronj1335	Cr8 cool thanks
15:27	aaronj1335	i'm trying to convert a python program that does some nlp stuff to clojure
15:27	aaronj1335	and the clojure version is 4-5x slower
15:27	aaronj1335	and i'm trying to figure out why
15:29	bbloom	aaronj1335: is the code small enough to gist?
15:29	aaronj1335	bbloom yea, it's a bit confusing tho because it's reading files from a weird format, so it may be a bit tough to understand. i'll gist it up, and see if it makes any sense
15:30	bbloom	aaronj1335: don't do that yet
15:30	bbloom	aaronj1335: first, decomplect the file loading and the logic
15:30	aaronj1335	ok
15:30	bbloom	so that you can benchmark apples against apples
15:30	ptcek	How can I find what port the repl is running on?
15:30	aaronj1335	i've got that logic separated
15:30	bbloom	aaronj1335: the just post that part
15:30	aaronj1335	cool
15:30	sdegutis	ptcek: what repl?
15:30	clojurebot	Huh?
15:31	sdegutis	ptcek: there is usually an .nrepl-port file created in the dir you're in
15:31	Pate_	ptcek, are you running `lein repl` ?
15:31	Pate_	second sdegutis.
15:31	Pate_	also, `lein repl` will output the the host and port it is running on.
15:32	ptcek	lein repl will... and .nrepl-port are good suggestions...
15:32	ptcek	I just opened datomic tutorial and started repl using the script there... but it does not necessarily listen on any port right? (i want to connect from emacs/vim)
15:33	ptcek	It will be simpler to just create a new lein project I guess.
15:35	seangrove	dnolen_ bbloom https://www.dropbox.com/s/8nroaf6dfa0a7ak/zenrise_barebones_app.mov wherein we make a barebones, unstyled, no-layout chat app. The next version of the tooling will replace the typing with a popup app-state inspector, so you can visually glue the transformer inputs to nodes in the tree. After that, there's no competition about building more maintainble UI's/client apps :)
15:35	aaronj1335	bbloom here's the code: https://gist.github.com/aaronj1335/9606615
15:36	bbloom	seangrove: is this not the same video as before? what's different?
15:36	seangrove	A developer hands the designer a snapshot of the app-state, and the designer can then glue that to the components independently
15:37	bbloom	seangrove: that's how it should work :-)
15:37	bbloom	aaronj1335: and you're saying that python is dramatically faster at this simple task?
15:37	seangrove	bbloom: Not enough yet, except that it's a functioning chat app with multiple components interacting and reading/updating the app state
15:37	bbloom	aaronj1335: even after warming up the jit by running it many times?
15:37	aaronj1335	bbloom 4-5 times yes
15:37	seangrove	But of course doing it all in a closure to functionally-pure way
15:37	aaronj1335	yea, i basically paste the snippet into the repl several times
15:38	bbloom	aaronj1335: you can't get a realistic benchmark that way
15:38	aaronj1335	usually takes ~31 secs for clojure, only 4.5ish for python
15:38	bbloom	aaronj1335: use (time (dotimes [i n] ...
15:38	seangrove	That's a pretty big difference
15:39	aaronj1335	(also i added the python snippet i'm using)
15:39	bbloom	aaronj1335: is "labeled tokens" a particularly big sequence?
15:39	aaronj1335	around a million items
15:39	seangrove	$seen noprompt
15:39	lazybot	noprompt was last seen quitting 2 days and 20 hours ago.
15:40	bbloom	aaronj1335: then your problem is lines 4 and 5 vs python lines 4/5/6
15:40	bbloom	aaronj1335: you're walking the sequence twice in the clojure version
15:40	aaronj1335	bbloom that was faster than a (reduce) call where i incrementally built the sets
15:41	aaronj1335	only one loop in the reduce call
15:41	bbloom	aaronj1335: i'd have to see that code too
15:41	aaronj1335	one sec...
15:41	bbloom	for a million items, memory access time is going to dominate the loop time for such simple transformations
15:42	Morgawr	http://i.imgur.com/J7hlC0t.png
15:42	Morgawr	sounds relevant
15:43	bbloom	seangrove: looking forward to seeing what UI you come up with for the transformer business
15:44	seangrove	bbloom: Probably going to be a bit small-talk-ish. Would be fantastic to have cljs-in-cljs at this point, heh. But ultimately, the transformer code (and probably controller code) should be written in javascript
15:45	seangrove	bbloom: Open up a small window (in terms of where they extend the app) for normal js developers to work in, tell them, "This function will receive these inputs, and must return the new state at the end. No side effects are allowed in this function." Let them write the javascript to handle that, and now they're plugging into a functionally-written cljs app
15:46	seangrove	But that's all later. Going to try to get the UI for the transformer glue done tonight, and then go for a long walk.
15:49	dbasch	technomancy: do you see any obvious issues with my password validation? https://www.refheap.com/60118
15:50	aaronj1335	bbloom ok i replaced the double loop in the gist w/ a reduce call. now it's running at like ~39ish seconds
15:50	Frozenlock	cemerick: I'm trying your clojurescript.test, which seems to be exactly what I was looking for. However, I get a weird error... would you mind checking it out? https://www.refheap.com/60117 (and yes, I'm using (:require cemerick.cljs.test) like suggested)
15:51	bbloom	aaronj1335: need to see the code. also, you should benchmark simply no-op walking the file to see if you have an issue there
15:51	cemerick	Frozenlock: https://github.com/cemerick/clojurescript.test/issues/53
15:52	aaronj1335	bbloom i updated the gist w/ the reduce call if you'd like to look at it. walking the file alone is ~7 seconds.
15:52	aaronj1335	thnx for your help, btw, this is very kind of u
15:53	dnolen_	aaronj1335: also make sure you are running Clojure w/ adequate memory + JVM -server option
15:53	Frozenlock	cemerick: Ah! Thanks! Would you suggest to add the js file, or use SlimerJS?
15:53	aaronj1335	dnolen_ i'm giving it 2G
15:53	dnolen_	aaronj1335: and -server?
15:54	cemerick	Frozenlock: I'd follow @noprompt on this, I've not had to think about it
15:54	bbloom	aaronj1335: this is one of those rare situtations where you actually want transients
15:54	aaronj1335	dnolen_ one sec...
15:54	aaronj1335	dnolen_ that goes in the :jvm-opts array of my project.clj?
15:54	Frozenlock	cemerick: understood. Thank you very much.
15:55	bbloom	aaronj1335: also the code you pasted me is invalid
15:55	bbloom	you're reducing over "tokens" which is not defined
15:55	aaronj1335	(in order to have the -server option for my repl)
15:55	dnolen_	aaronj1335: yes :jvm-opt ^:replace [...]
15:55	dnolen_	aaronj1335: lein has bad defaults for benchmarking
15:55	aaronj1335	cool thnx
15:56	dnolen_	aaronj1335: :jvm-opts ^:replace ["-Xmx512m" "-server"]
15:56	dnolen_	or something like that
15:56	aaronj1335	bbloom sorry, that was just a bad paste, i'll update it, but that should be labeled-tokens
15:57	aaronj1335	i'm running some unit tests before i bench mark to keep my sanity, but i can't do that on the gist stuff
15:58	bbloom	aaronj1335: try loop/recur with http://clojure.org/transients
15:58	bbloom	you definitely want transients for that many objects
15:58	bbloom	memory access and GC are going to dominate the code as you have it now
15:58	bbloom	the mutability in python actually spares you a ton of garbage overhead, doubly true when you do one loop instead of two
15:58	bbloom	the reason the reduce is SLOWER is b/c into uses transients internally
15:58	aaronj1335	right on
15:59	dnolen_	bbloom: aaronj1335: even that said I would be surprised if you see a 4X boost from running w/ the right JVM settings
15:59	aaronj1335	yea i was wondering if there was a good way of using mutable stuff w/o having to make a bunch of java method calls
15:59	bbloom	dnolen_: wouldn't?
16:00	dnolen_	bbloom: oops yes
16:00	dnolen_	aaronj1335: I would first get the fastest idiomatic Clojure, should compete w/ Python
16:00	dnolen_	if you want to get much faster than that, it's definitely possibly but a bit fiddly / tedious
16:01	bbloom	dnolen_: even with a 4x improvement, he'd still not be competitive with python b/c the work each program is doing is so wildly different
16:01	bbloom	entertainingly, his code is a pathological case for the intersection of persistent data structures and lazy sequences :-)
16:02	aaronj1335	bbloom u think the lazy-seq's hurt perf here?
16:02	bbloom	aaronj1335: absolutely
16:02	bbloom	aaronj1335: again, increased allocation and garbage preasure
16:02	dnolen_	bbloom: the comparison is fair insofar as Clojure gives good performance for functional patterns compared to imperative approaches in imperative "scripting" languages
16:05	aaronj1335	well bummer... i was using lazy-seqs all over the place (esp. in the other code that reads the files) b/c i thought that similarly to python generators, they actually save memory pressure by never realizing the full array/list in memory
16:05	bbloom	aaronj1335: so generally lazy seqs are faster b/c you don't always do all the work
16:05	bbloom	especially if you CAN'T do all the work (ie infinite lazy seqs)
16:05	bbloom	but when you're traversing an entire file and never backtracking, then you're paying for stuff you don't need, like all the intermediate values
16:06	bbloom	python generators don't capture past states in anyway
16:06	bbloom	they are ephemeral
16:06	aaronj1335	but lazy seq's do?
16:07	dnolen_	aaronj1335: uh, I strongly suggest not getting lost in the performance assumption weeds just yet. Just make your code pretty and run it w/ the right JVM settings first.
16:07	bbloom	aaronj1335: you can hold on to a lazy seq and it won't change
16:08	bbloom	aaronj1335: reducers let you keep the pretty functional style and eliminate the overhead of the lazy seqs b/c you can only get at the final answer, not the intermediate results
16:08	bbloom	aaronj1335: you can get exceptionally good performance in both space and time for the same style of code
16:09	bbloom	but (sadly) i don't think that clojure exposes a reducable data type for files as lines
16:10	TheMoonMaster	I'm horrible with macros, I have a macro that defines an anonymous function that takes 1 argument, how can I make that argument available to the body passed to the macro?
16:10	aaronj1335	cool... i've got something to run to now, but i'll clean up the perf comparisons and jvm settings and may be back later tonight w/ more questions and fuller examples. thnx again dnolen_ and bbloom for your time
16:10	gtrak	TheMoonMaster: you should take the captured symbol as input
16:10	TheMoonMaster	I have no idea what that means.
16:11	TheMoonMaster	I have something like this in there right now, `(fn [msg#] ~@body)`
16:11	TheMoonMaster	I need msg# available in body, but I'm totally clueless.
16:11	gtrak	right, so msg# is a gensym, which is the opposite of what you want.
16:11	TheMoonMaster	Ah
16:12	mschuene	do ¯'msg if you want to call it msg inside the body
16:12	gtrak	guaranteed to be unique and not clash with what's in ~@body. but don't do 'msg instead, the client should pass into the macro the desired symbol.
16:12	mschuene	yes
16:13	gtrak	like (defmacro somemacro [sym & body] `(fn [~sym] ~@body))
16:13	gtrak	(somemacro msg (do-crap-to msg))
16:13	TheMoonMaster	In this case it doesn't really make sense to have it passed in.
16:14	gtrak	not the value, just the name
16:14	TheMoonMaster	Right, still makes sense as just msg.
16:14	mschuene	~' is the quoting you want here
16:14	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
16:14	gtrak	yea, it's just ill-advised to invisibly do stuff like that
16:14	gtrak	in general
16:14	TheMoonMaster	Yeah, if it were a library or something more than what it is, I'd totally do that.
16:15	gtrak	just so you know :-)
16:15	mschuene	it is OK if the client can specify how an anaphoric symbol will be named imo
16:15	TheMoonMaster	I appreciate the heads up and the help
16:15	amalloy	mschuene: if the client says how to name it, that's the opposite of anaphoric
16:16	seangrove	dnolen_: What's the state of meta in cljs? Is it readable at run-time (e.g. getting the metadata of a function at runtime)?
16:17	gtrak	seangrove: what's the use-case?
16:17	gtrak	I implemented something like that off analyzer data
16:17	seangrove	gtrak: Deciding on where to put the parameters for functions for introspection by a end-user tool
16:18	gtrak	hrm...
16:19	gtrak	so this is runtime-wiring or is the cljs compiler available?
16:20	dnolen_	seangrove: metadata on the function var you cannot get at runtime
16:20	dnolen_	seangrove: functions do support adding meta at runtime though
16:20	seangrove	gtrak: Right now run-time, could possibly push it into the compilation stage. Not the biggest deal for the time being
16:21	gtrak	maybe a macro could bridge the gap
16:22	gtrak	there's a dynamic var that stores the analyzer env, not sure about lifecycles and timing of these things.
16:23	mdrogalis	I've been looking for this forever. Stu Halloway on abstraction/encapculation Clojure's state perception model. http://vimeo.com/45136215
16:23	mdrogalis	Now I just wish I remembered who was asking for it D:
16:23	mdrogalis	4:50 - 8:00 ^
16:41	shiranaihito	is there an idiomatic approach to throwing exceptions from Clojure code? i'd like to produce some specific type of exception in a specific situation, but it feels a bit unwieldy so far
16:42	amalloy	clojure is pretty lax about exception types
16:43	amalloy	people usually just throw any old garbage, and if you want to be specific you can use ex-info and ex-data to convey a lot more information than just a type
16:53	shiranaihito	amalloy: do you think that common habit is.. alright?
16:53	shiranaihito	i'm still new to clojure, but somehow i feel like trying to take care to produce clear, situational errors from clojure code is unwieldy
16:54	shiranaihito	maybe i'm missing something.. or maybe that's why people just throw any old garbage, whatever that means exactly :p
16:55	arohner	isn't there an official clojure 'contrib' lib w/ a better version of clojure.walk?
16:55	amalloy	it has its pluses and its minuses. i'd say there are more important things to figure out, for a new clojure programmer, than how to throw intricate exceptions
16:55	shiranaihito	amalloy: what's your take on the unwieldiness though?
16:56	amalloy	i don't try to throw fancypants exceptions. i try to return data that indicates what went wrong
16:57	technomancy	ex-info is a beautiful thing
16:57	technomancy	probably my favourite new feature since 1.1
16:57	shiranaihito	technomancy: .. meaning? :p
16:58	gtrak	exceptions are annoying, but at least we have macros to deal with them better :-)
16:58	shiranaihito	amalloy: well, i'm not trying to be fancy - just clear and informative, but do you have some kind of typical approach to returning data that indicates what went wrong?
16:58	technomancy	shiranaihito: dunno, I like it a lot? I find it adds a lot of expressivity.
16:59	shiranaihito	technomancy: well, i was wondering how you use it, but i guess that doesn't really matter because i'm not even familiar with the function itself :p
16:59	technomancy	if there's ever any reason a caller would need to make decisions based on what went wrong, ex-info is the way to go
16:59	shiranaihito	hmm
16:59	technomancy	(unless the caller is a java program or something)
16:59	rasmusto	,(ex-data (ex-info "blah" {:who 'what}))
17:00	clojurebot	{:who what}
17:00	shiranaihito	ohh alright
17:01	zuzkins	Hello guys. Does anybody know, if there is a protocol to extend on 3rd party type in clojurescript to alter the way prn-str prints it. I can't find it. Thanks
17:05	dnolen_	zuzkins: -pr-writer
17:10	zuzkins	dnolen_: thank you
17:10	dnolen_	zuzkins: np
17:37	Nnel	Does Clojure support cyclical(?) definitions? E.g. A includes calls to B, B also includes a recursion into A.
17:37	francis_wolke	Nnel: no
17:37	brehaut	(doc declare)
17:37	clojurebot	"([& names]); defs the supplied var names with no bindings, useful for making forward declarations."
17:37	amalloy	Nnel: it's possible with letfn or declare, but most of the time there's a better approach
17:37	brehaut	(doc letfn)
17:37	clojurebot	"([fnspecs & body]); fnspec ==> (fname [params] exprs) or (fname ([params] exprs)+) Takes a vector of function specs and a body, and generates a set of bindings of functions to their names. All of the names are available in all of the definitions of the functions, as well as the body."
17:38	francis_wolke	I misspoke - you can use declare, but you can't do async loads of other namespaces.
17:39	Nnel	amalloy: brehaut , cheers, yeah there are better ways for sure.. just using clojure to lazily go through a scheme book :P
17:39	amalloy	,(letfn [(even? [x] (or (zero? x) (odd? (dec x)))) (odd? [x] (and (not (zero? x)) (even? (dec x))))] (even? 10))
17:39	clojurebot	true
17:43	Nnel	amalloy: Thanks
17:45	chare	you guys know how with ruby on rails it automatically compresses js files and puts them all into one big file
17:45	chare	when using clojure with ring, compojure, etc... what is the equivalent
17:47	justin_smith	use an asset minification step, this is built into clojurescript, but you can also use grunt or the closure compiler directly if it is plain js
17:47	chare	justin_smith so you're saying there is no framework already setup I gotta set it up myself
17:48	justin_smith	there may be, none that I use
17:48	justin_smith	unless you are using clojurescript, there are setups for that
17:48	seangrove	There's dieter, and I think there's also a successor
17:48	seangrove	time to dance!
17:51	chare	justin_smith you also know how ruby on rails does more than minification it also does a kind of versioning by dealing with md5
17:51	chare	don't i need that too?
17:51	justin_smith	I don't know what you need
17:52	justin_smith	I think hlship is working on some kind of asset pipeline solution, but I don't know the details
17:52	chare	justin_smith so you're saying you're not familiar with rails asset pipeline?
17:52	chare	damn it
17:56	bbjva	hi all
17:57	bbjva	I have a question about fucntions in Clojure, can someone pm me if you feel like helping
17:57	rasmusto	~anyone
17:57	clojurebot	anyone is anybody
17:57	rasmusto	~anybody
17:57	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
17:58	amalloy	~clojurebot is constantly polluting useful triggers like ~anyone by learning other irrelevant factoids to repeat instead
17:58	clojurebot	In Ordnung
17:59	rasmusto	~anyone
17:59	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
17:59	rasmusto	wait, hm?
18:00	amalloy	rasmusto: he has multiple hits and chooses one at random
18:00	seangrove	botsnack
18:00	rasmusto	amalloy: ah, gotcha
18:00	rasmusto	~snotback
18:00	seangrove	clojurebot: botsnack
18:00	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
18:00	clojurebot	Thanks, but I prefer chocolate
18:01	amalloy	makes it impossible to reliably use ~anyone or ~anybody
18:01	seangrove	It's not clojurebot's fault
18:01	amalloy	i've tried un-teaching him the relation between those two, but it doesn't have any effect
18:01	brehaut	amalloy: if only there was another bot you could program to reliably respond to a set of facts
18:02	amalloy	despite how unreliable clojurebot's factoid system is, it's still so much more convenient than lazybot's
18:03	technomancy	it's part of the deranged charm
18:03	technomancy	like how you have to smack the tardis control panel a few times before it goes
18:11	justin_smith	or blowing on the cartridge to make it work
18:12	justin_smith	technomancy: that's called percussive maintenance btw http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/percussive_maintenance
18:12	rasmusto	i guess you were supposed to use IPA and a q-tip
18:13	rasmusto	i always blew the dust out (because my carts were in my tree fort)
18:13	technomancy	you put beer on your NES carts?
18:13	rasmusto	isopropyl
18:13	bbjva	I am trying to write a function that accepts keyboard input (which is then stored as a var) I surely need some pointers!
18:13	technomancy	oh that makes more sense
18:14	justin_smith	technomancy: the hops help mario jump higher, duh
18:14	amalloy	((juxt inc dec) justin_smith) ;; i wish this worked
18:14	justin_smith	hah
18:14	technomancy	heh
18:14	amalloy	i mean, i guess it does, right? i left his karma the same
18:15	brehaut	justin_smith: the blowing dust out of power / usb cables is mostly successfully a social engineering trick for help desk people: nobody wants to believe that they were stupid enoguh to not check something was plugged in before calling the help desk. 'blowing on it' is a good excuse for getting the user to actually check
18:15	justin_smith	I haven't heard of blowing on the cable
18:15	justin_smith	*hadn't
18:15	technomancy	brehaut: I heard it had more to do with the act of disconnecting and reconnecting
18:16	rasmusto	I like when people twist down harder on the VGA cable screws
18:16	rasmusto	if video doesn't work
18:16	amalloy	yeah, that's what i heard too, technomancy. something in the NES connectors didn't always click right, and just taking it out and putting it back was the real solution hidden behind blowing on it
18:16	brehaut	technomancy: any excuse to get someone to check and have an excuse when it was just not plugged in properly ;)
18:16	justin_smith	bbjva: pretty much everything in the jvm is a pointer to something in the heap - perhaps you mean a reference type that can be updated (like an atom or ref or agent)?
18:17	bbjva	tyeah
18:17	bbjva	yeah
18:17	dbasch	how do I redirect the output of clojure.tools.logging so that it appears in the slf4j output from "lein ring server"?
18:17	bbjva	sorry
18:17	brehaut	amalloy, technomancy: and pulling it out might scrap off some of the rust accumulating on the pins due to blowing
18:17	bbjva	I am coming from a java/c background
18:17	amalloy	hah
18:17	bbjva	trying to figure it out
18:17	justin_smith	bbjva: also, most processes that require mutation in an imperative language can be translated to a functional form working on an immutible stream of input (lazy seqs or a reduction across some input)
18:17	bbjva	thanks
18:18	bbjva	no mutation in fp
18:18	bbjva	is taking me a bit of time to get used to
18:18	justin_smith	it is possible, but less often needed
18:18	bbjva	yeah
18:19	bbjva	picking it up for work, loving the language lots so far, just changing my way of thinking is taking time
18:19	bbjva	i was an object head, but no longer
18:19	justin_smith	the general pattern is to ask how the thing that was changing can be a parameter of a strict function (such that the "change" is a changed input, and the same input will always get the same result)
18:19	bbjva	or at least not after 5 pm
18:19	bbjva	okay
18:19	justin_smith	heh, it takes a while, but I think pretty much everyone here would agree it is worth it
18:20	bbjva	it seems like it
18:20	gtrak	because everyone else doesn't make it this far :-)
18:22	justin_smith	heh, like Douglas Adams' puddle
18:22	gtrak	they stick to their comfy iterators and generics (hard to say with a straight face)
18:22	justin_smith	Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, "This is an interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in — fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!"
18:24	brehaut	gtrak: i have a hard time finding generics to be something detrimental
18:25	brehaut	gtrak: its about the only part of contemporary big OO type systems that is nice :P
18:25	gtrak	that's like saying I'd cut my arm off so I can get a prosthetic
18:26	gtrak	prosthetic nib
18:27	gtrak	maybe it's not generics that are ugly but generics + classes/inheritance.
18:27	gtrak	I have rather painful memories.
18:27	brehaut	yeah classes and inheritance are a pig
18:28	brehaut	and yes they do make generics bleark
18:28	brehaut	you need to have good variance constraints (C#4+)
18:28	amalloy	$dict bleark
18:28	lazybot	amalloy: Word not found.
18:28	amalloy	:(
18:28	brehaut	but then you have to deal with variance constraints which are a mess
18:28	brehaut	amalloy: onomatopoeia
18:28	brehaut	a being sick noise
18:29	amalloy	well, i'm glad it's been a while since i had lunch. that's a pretty specific sound
18:30	brehaut	sorry about that
18:31	brehaut	gtrak: generics are also much more useful when used with discriminated unions than interfaces
18:34	shriphani	hi. I have a weird situation where java reflection confirms that a method exists but I can't seem to invoke it. Here's the trace I got from the repl. Can someone help? https://gist.github.com/shriphani/9609733
18:35	gtrak	doesn't seem hard to improve on interfaces :-), we use a language that focuses on dynamic data, after all.
18:35	amalloy	shriphani: a method that takes varargs like f(String... xs) actually takes a String[], not multiple arguments
18:36	shriphani	o wow I am an idiot.
18:36	martinklepsch	in clojure using = is a "referential equality" check right? could anyone explain how this works internally? (or explain what it means)
18:36	brehaut	s/idiot/unfamiliar with the specifics of java compilation/
18:37	gtrak	martinklepsch: referential equality means a pointer check, ie, identical?
18:37	amalloy	actually it looks like this one doesn't take varargs at all, it explicitly takes a String[]
18:37	shriphani	yeah
18:37	shriphani	yeah and I sent in a vector
18:37	justin_smith	,(doc =)
18:37	clojurebot	"([x] [x y] [x y & more]); Equality. Returns true if x equals y, false if not. Same as Java x.equals(y) except it also works for nil, and compares numbers and collections in a type-independent manner. Clojure's immutable data structures define equals() (and thus =) as a value, not an identity, comparison."
18:37	martinklepsch	gtrak, so it compares where the pointer points to in memory?
18:37	amalloy	so i'll give him "careless", which is between "idiot" and "java is crazy"
18:37	justin_smith	man, that doc string looked like it was using an emoticon for a moment
18:38	shriphani	well, that solves my problem.
18:38	gtrak	martinklepsch: I think that's what he means, this is om, right?
18:38	martinklepsch	yeah
18:38	martinklepsch	gtrak, thanks, think I got it
18:38	gtrak	referential as in 'reference', which really means pointer..
18:39	technomancy	martinklepsch: clojure's = sorta implements operational equivalence, with notable omissions
18:39	justin_smith	martinklepsch: note the doc string I made clojurebot print above
18:39	martinklepsch	justin_smith, yeah read that
18:39	martinklepsch	= != identical?
18:39	rasmusto	~=
18:39	clojurebot	Pardon?
18:40	justin_smith	special cases for numbers and collections (things where "same structure" could semantically mean "same" even if pointers do not match)
18:40	rasmusto	,(= [1 2 3] '(1 2 3))
18:40	clojurebot	true
18:40	justin_smith	,(= ["a" "b" "c"] '("a" "b" "c"))
18:40	clojurebot	true
18:41	gtrak	I think he probably also means in the 'general case'
18:41	rasmusto	,(= '(\a \b \c) (seq "abc"))
18:41	clojurebot	true
18:42	zer	,(= '(\a \b \c) "abc")
18:42	clojurebot	false
18:42	justin_smith	strings are not treated as sequential collections in general
18:42	dbasch	so, what's the right way to have configurable debug/info/error logging in compojure?
18:43	gtrak	dbasch: luminus chose to use timbre
18:43	SegFaultAX	dbasch: That's not really a compojure thing, but log4j is the standard Java logging utility. Timbre is the best wrapper around for it.
18:43	technomancy	"it's complicated"
18:44	technomancy	wait, I thought timbre was independent of log4j
18:44	dbasch	SegFaultAX: jetty seems to be using slf4j
18:44	technomancy	dbasch: it depends on whether you want unification with other libs. if not I would use println+binding
18:44	SegFaultAX	technomancy: Is it? I thought it was a wrapper for it!?
18:45	gtrak	is timbre actually on-par with java libs?
18:45	gtrak	seems like it's a dead horse, but they've been beating it for quite a while.
18:45	chare	ok so making a webapp with clojure I use Ring, Compojure, Hiccup, and what else
18:45	chare	what is the standard list of stuff to use?
18:46	SegFaultAX	technomancy: It appears to be using c.tools.logging which uses slf4j. TIL
18:46	gtrak	chare: luminus is a good starting point, batteries-included.
18:46	SegFaultAX	chare: Probably friend.
18:46	technomancy	SegFaultAX: blargh. it started as its own thing. now I don't have anything to recommend for people who can get away with avoiding the java logging quagmire.
18:47	technomancy	apart from just println+binding of course, which is what I use
18:47	SegFaultAX	technomancy: Heh. Fortunately c.tools.logging provides a sane interface on top of most of the standard Java loggers.
18:47	justin_smith	just wrap the process in nohup and you get logging?
18:47	SegFaultAX	technomancy: So whatever you have available on your CP will be selected by tools.logging and therefore timbre.
18:48	SegFaultAX	https://github.com/clojure/tools.logging/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/logging/impl.clj#L202
18:48	technomancy	SegFaultAX: last I checked changing log level at runtime with log4j was a complete nightmare
18:48	gtrak	the java stuff brings out the worst problems in dependency management
18:48	hiredman	technomancy: that is just not true
18:48	justin_smith	technomancy: the conclusion I came to was that they consider it a security thing so it is intentionally hard to modify dynamically? either that or they are totally out to lunch architecture astronaughts that recoil at the thought of anything simple
18:49	technomancy	hiredman: maybe it was commons logging. it's been a while.
18:49	hiredman	you call a static method with the name of the of log level you want
18:49	justin_smith	or maybe I was just doing it all wrong...
18:49	amalloy	hiredman: i think he means "changing whether INFO gets written to a file or just ignored, for package X"
18:50	hiredman	ok, that isn't write, you call a static method to get the level object, then you call a method on the logger to set its level
18:50	technomancy	lol, at astronaughts
18:50	justin_smith	weird typo, glad it amused you
18:50	justin_smith	my fingers seem to go by bizarre phonetic rules sometimes...
18:51	hiredman	newer stuff like, uh, waht is logback? which is api compatible with log4j, acutally watches the config file and will reload it if there are changes, if I recall
18:51	amalloy	astronaughts are people in space who nobody cares about
18:51	SegFaultAX	Well you can always use something else if you don't want to deal with log4j directly... like slf4j
18:53	technomancy	SegFaultAX: java logging is amazing because there are more abstract interfaces against libraries than actual implementation libraries.
18:53	technomancy	where "amazing" here is not a good thing
18:53	SegFaultAX	Heh. Logging is a hard problem, clearly.
18:55	hiredman	so let's throw fud at it
18:57	SegFaultAX	hiredman: I wasn't trying to spread FUD!
18:57	lgs32a	I have a strange problem with friend
18:57	lgs32a	It simply does not authenticate
18:58	hiredman	SegFaultAX: sure
18:58	lgs32a	I also noticed that there is an empty hash-map under the :session parameter in the request of the any handler
18:58	SegFaultAX	lgs32a: Well need more details than that. gist/refheap some code.
18:59	lgs32a	SegFaultAX: Would it be possible without?
18:59	eric_normand	shriphani: answered in the gist
19:00	SegFaultAX	lgs32a: "It doesn't work" isn't much to go on. ;)
19:00	lgs32a	I think somebody who knows the friend codebase well could help me significantly
19:00	hiredman	pedestal service has some nice logback logging settings and some project.clj depednency wrangling to direct other logging frameworks you are likely to encounter to logback
19:00	lgs32a	SegFaultAX: As I said, the :session parameter is empty
19:00	SegFaultAX	lgs32a: Also, I'm pretty sure friend stores the authentication map under :session with a namespace qualified key.
19:01	lgs32a	Yes it stores ::friend/unauthorized-uri
19:01	lgs32a	But only if I visit a route directly, the redirect from login results in an empty session
19:02	lgs32a	I am using the interactive-form workflow
19:02	lgs32a	Also, :credential-fn returns a valid login
19:05	lgs32a	Even though the login succeeds, current-authentication always returns nil
19:08	seangrove	Ugh, damnit
19:09	seangrove	What do I want to check for to see if a value implements lookup, like hashmaps and vectors?
19:10	amalloy	ILookup
19:10	seangrove	,(satisfies? ILookup {})
19:10	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: ILookup in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
19:10	amalloy	on the jvm it's an interface, not a protocol, of course
19:10	SegFaultAX	clojure.lang
19:10	amalloy	and it's in clojure.lang, right
19:10	amalloy	,(instance? clojure.lang.ILookup {})
19:11	clojurebot	true
19:11	seangrove	Hrm, struggling to get it to work in cljs
19:11	seangrove	Let me see if I can find the right name for it
19:12	seangrove	cljs.core/ILookup
19:12	seangrove	That did it, thanks!
19:14	gnandretta	3
19:16	Morgawr	does anybody know Jamie's handle on irc (if he's even in here)? I wanted to talk to him about GSoC (I posted in the google group for clojure but got no reply)
19:23	arohner	isn't there a library that is a better version of clojure.walk somewhere?
19:24	justin_smith	clojure.walk2 which got subsumed into clojure 1.6 iirc? https://github.com/stuartsierra/clojure.walk2
19:30	Bronsa	justin_smith: no it hasn't
19:32	justin_smith	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1239 ah I see still open
19:33	justin_smith	the only place lein search finds clojure.walk2 is currently the caribou/clojure.walk2 fork
19:33	Bronsa	what's in 1.6 is support for records
19:33	justin_smith	ahh OK
19:47	gfredericks	what am I ought to use to query the data structure that data.xml/parse returns?
19:49	noonian	according to the readme you should be able to use normal clojure fns
19:50	noonian	(-> parsed-xml :content println)
19:50	hiredman	gfredericks: you can do things with zippers, there was a contrib library for slicing it up in teh past
19:52	hiredman	gfredericks: https://github.com/clojure/data.zip/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/data/zip/xml.clj
19:53	gfredericks	oh I knew zip had something to do with it
19:53	gfredericks	hiredman: thanks
20:48	SegFaultAX	Philsophical question: in an utterly object oriented language like Java, what's the best way to build up objects compositionally vs. through inheritance? As a motivating example, assume we have a User class with all the essential methods for a User. Later, we want to add methods that are logically related to each other, but aren't really part of User itself despite needing a User to do their thing. What's the most common way to accomplish th
20:49	seangrove	SegFaultAX: I think there's an idea of service-layers for that
20:49	beamso	for the situation you've mentioned, util classes usually
20:49	SegFaultAX	In Objective-C world, for example, the answer is delegates all the way down. In Clojure, we can extend new methods over our types via protocols. Haskell has type classes which are functionally similar to protocols. But what about java?
20:49	SegFaultAX	bailon: So you're thinking the delegate pattern then? Or something similar?
20:50	hyPiRion	SegFaultAX: Interfaces with default methods I guess
20:50	SegFaultAX	hyPiRion: Not possible until Java 8.
20:50	SegFaultAX	So how does modern Java work? Is it just inheritance all over the place?
20:50	hyPiRion	SegFaultAX: you said it was a philosophical question :p
20:50	beamso	it's both util classes and service-layers, as seangrove mentioned
20:50	hyPiRion	But yes, inheritance everywhere, or util classes
20:50	SegFaultAX	hyPiRion: Well, ok you got me there. :)
20:51	amalloy	SegFaultAX: just a class that contains a User object, and in addition to the methods you're adding contains a getUser() method?
20:52	SegFaultAX	amalloy: That's basically what I was thinking. I wouldn't bother to proxy the object (eg forward messages to the delegator)
20:52	amalloy	indeed not
20:52	beamso	i was going to say that the types/protocols thing made me curious
20:52	amalloy	if a thing is not a User, but needs a User to do its stuff, why should it act like a User?
20:53	beamso	in all of my clojure programming i've used maps instead of types as i'm building up information in the type during computation
20:53	SegFaultAX	amalloy: It shouldn't. It just defines operations that require a user.
20:54	amalloy	right. i'm questioning why proxying the object is even under cnosideration. i don't know why you would do that even in a language that makes it easy, like the delegates you were mentioning earlier
20:55	SegFaultAX	amalloy: So when you start having more complex helper classes, that's where you start using DI. Eg if my helper class needs a User and a Foobar. How does DI work when I need a /specific/ User and a /specific/ Foobar. Like `new MyHelper(new User(2), new Foobar(42))`?
20:55	amalloy	if it's right in that case, you might as well do it in java, since eclipse makes it like ten keystrokes to generate all the delegators
20:56	SegFaultAX	Ugh, irccloud keeps dying.
20:56	amalloy	SegFaultAX: i don't understand that question at all. DI works by passing in the objects you depend on, as in your example
20:57	amalloy	so, your example seems fine, and i don't know what alternative you're asking for
20:58	SegFaultAX	I'm not asking for an alternative. I'm wondering what the typical pattern is for asking a DI harness for an instance of MyHelper with parameterized dependencies.
20:58	beamso	typically for DI you're not relying on a specific instance of something from a database
20:58	beamso	you're using it to inject a database connection
20:59	amalloy	i have no idea what asking a DI harness for something is like, i'm afraid
20:59	SegFaultAX	beamso: That's exactly what I'm asking about. I get DI for those types of things, what I don't get is DI for specific instances of things.
20:59	beamso	i haven't seen people do DI for specific instances
20:59	alew	I don't think you should ask the DI harness for anything; the point of DI is that a component receives components without any of their implementation details
20:59	beamso	like, in a webapp, you might choose to have a thread local or a session variable to hold those context sensitive items
21:00	alew	If you want DI for specific instances, all you can do is do some sort of reflection/type checking in order to understand what you were given
21:00	SegFaultAX	amalloy seems to think it can inject specific instances of things.
21:00	SegFaultAX	And I'm wondering how that would even work, since you can't know until runtime what to inject.
21:00	SegFaultAX	Whereas a database connection (and all the configuration for it) can be specified ahead of time.
21:01	amalloy	SegFaultAX: you talked about dependency inversion, which i understand to be a design pattern. i have no idea what a DI harness or framework looks like
21:01	justin_smith	SegFaultAX: as I understand it Java DI often uses a config file to specify the class that will be loaded at runtime
21:01	SegFaultAX	justin_smith: Right.
21:01	beamso	config files, annotations or hard coded java
21:02	SegFaultAX	amalloy: Um, when I gave the example above of `new MyHelper(new User(2), new Foobar(42))` you seemed to dismiss that as a trivial example.
21:02	amalloy	indeed, you can trivially write that code yourself, and get a functioning MyHelper
21:03	SegFaultAX	amalloy: I asked that in the context of DI, though.
21:03	amalloy	apparently you and i have no common conception of what DI is
21:03	SegFaultAX	amalloy: Dependency injection?
21:03	amalloy	so anything i have said in this conversation should be dismissed as meaningless
21:03	SegFaultAX	amalloy: Were you not talking about dependency injection?
21:04	amalloy	well, when you started getting confused, i clarified that i meant dependency inversion, the design pattern
21:04	amalloy	you introduced "DI" without filling in the letters, but apparently you meant dependency injection
21:04	beamso	inversion of control, you mean
21:05	SegFaultAX	DI is a relatively standard initialism given the context. My mistake for not clarifying.
21:05	amalloy	looking them both up, they seem pretty similar, except that you're talking about frameworks that do DI for you in some mystical way
21:06	SegFaultAX	amalloy: javax.inject is a good example.
21:06	SegFaultAX	As is Dagger or Guice.
21:06	amalloy	those are what i know nothing about; DI the technique makes sense to me
21:06	amalloy	like i said, i have never used any of those, and can't help you with your current goal in getting them to do what you want
21:06	beamso	javax.inject? oh noes.
21:07	justin_smith	I suspect much of what is meant by "dependency injection" is some hoops that inflexible languages must jump through to do dependency inversion - but I may be wrong about this
21:08	SegFaultAX	justin_smith: Not really. Dependency injection is just a technique for constructing, well, dependencies to things.
21:08	SegFaultAX	AngularJS is a recent example of a framework that uses injection pervasively.
21:09	beamso	for java it was a kind of way to remove the factory method, singleton and service locator patterns
21:10	SegFaultAX	Jersey is actually a pretty cool example of DI "Done Right" in Java, imho.
21:10	justin_smith	http://martinfowler.com/articles/injection.html
21:11	beamso	i like jersey but for some of the injection the resource classes get instantiated over and over again
21:11	beamso	i can understand why angularjs has dependency injection but it almost goes too far
21:11	SegFaultAX	beamso: That might be OK since they're tiny anyway.
21:15	SegFaultAX	amalloy: So going back to our previous discussion, you group helper methods inside a helper class, then construct that helper class with an instance of its dependency, is that right?
21:15	hyPiRion	What would you call a set of XML Schemas which defines a "standard"? Some people tends to call it a format, but I'm always confused because I consider XML to be the format, and the schemas to be the interpretation of the data.
21:15	SegFaultAX	So User has core methods to user, and UserFoobarHelper has all the methods for doing Foobar-like operations on the User (horrible naming aside)
21:15	dsrx	angularjs dependency injection is hilarious
21:16	dsrx	but it works
21:16	amalloy	that sounds right, SegFaultAX
21:16	dsrx	(modulo the build step you need for it to be minification safe)
21:16	dsrx	(unless you want to hand-annotate everything, blech)
21:16	beamso	from a code zealot point of view, your helper class shouldn't require dependency injection
21:16	SegFaultAX	amalloy: Would you provide methods on the User to construct instances of the helper classes?
21:16	beamso	requiring dependency injection -> service layer
21:17	amalloy	i don't think so. why should User know anything about all the classes that need a User?
21:17	SegFaultAX	amalloy: Dunno, more to just reduce typing? I guess it doesn't matter that much.
21:18	SegFaultAX	If I used UserFoobarHelper all the time, I wouldn't want to type `new UserFoobarHelper(user)` all over the place if I could avoid it :)
21:18	amalloy	what, you'd rather type user.makeFooBarHelper()? what does that achieve?
21:19	hyPiRion	amalloy: just have the functions directly onto the User class I guess
21:19	amalloy	but this discussion started with "say you have a User class and it's great, and you want a new class that isn't a User but does things with Users"
21:19	SegFaultAX	amalloy: I'm just throwing out ideas.
21:19	hyPiRion	although if you need another object for the helper functionality, I'd guess that point is sort of moot
21:20	SegFaultAX	hyPiRion: The alternative is to make User do everything. Which can be quite a diverse set of concerns given the application. What's a better way to break the logic up?
21:20	amalloy	SegFaultAX: i think if you want an object that uses a User, at some point you have to pass a User in. either at construction time, or perhaps as the first parameter to some static function
21:20	hyPiRion	I tend to use Clojure, and that seems to work quite well.
21:21	hyPiRion	(I tend to use Java for perf. reasons only these days)
21:22	SegFaultAX	hyPiRion: This whole discussion is a moot point in clj, really. At a minimum we have functions and namespaces, and protocols for when we care about types. (This part was discussed earlier)
21:22	SegFaultAX	So I can trivially break up my logic into different namespaces.
21:22	hyPiRion	SegFaultAX: yeah, I know. I just said I used Clojure because I have no idea on how to do it "nicely" in Java, so I fall back to Clojure instead.
21:22	SegFaultAX	But in a language like Java, how do I break up all the diverse logic for my User or other <insert central object here>?
21:23	SegFaultAX	I started this as a philosophical debate, anyway. :D
21:23	hyPiRion	hehe
21:28	SegFaultAX	But I think this question applies equally to languages like Python and Ruby which are still heavily class-based.
21:28	beamso	but i have first class functions in both languages
21:29	beamso	a util class is attempting to paper over the crack that is no first class functions in java
21:37	SegFaultAX	beamso: I'm not sure how that helps in this case.
21:39	beamso	a util class is like 'i need to put some code somewhere'
21:39	beamso	first class function -> that code is already somewhere
21:39	pdk	at least java 8 is going halfway and giving us lambda!!!1
21:40	SegFaultAX	beamso: Yes, I know what a util class is. I'm not sure how that helps in the situation we're discussing.
21:40	beamso	you asked about ruby and python
21:40	beamso	ruby does have first class functions
21:40	beamso	i'm pretty sure that python does too
21:41	anon_53k8	it does
21:41	SegFaultAX	beamso: But how do first-class functions ameliorate the problem I described?
21:41	beamso	you don't have to put logic into a class?
21:41	beamso	it can live in a first class function just fine
21:42	SegFaultAX	beamso: Well the first classness isn't really relevant here then. I could just as easily make a fully static class.
22:08	gfredericks	ruby has 2nd class functions
22:08	gfredericks	ruby aims a shotgun at first class functions and hits all around it
22:24	AmandaC	How can I use lein to reference a jar? An API I wish to use isn’t on mavin or clojars
22:29	Bronsa	AmandaC: I never used it but https://github.com/kumarshantanu/lein-localrepo might be what you need
22:29	beamso	you could also install the jar into your local repo using maven
22:29	beamso	http://maven.apache.org/guides/mini/guide-3rd-party-jars-local.html
22:30	AmandaC	Hrm, thanks, beamso
22:35	Frozenlock	Is there a clojure/cljs way to handle internationalization in web apps? I've seen `tower', but this seems to be mostly for clojure.
22:35	Frozenlock	At this point I think the best approach would be to use tower in the webserver and loading a single language in an atom on the client side.
22:39	noonian	you could also use an existing js library
23:45	vimuser21	This is more of a general programming question, but lets say you wanted to create a bunch of hashs with key/value pairs, and the key is a unique id. how would you do this in a pure functional manner? seems like you would be mutating a counter which is stateful
23:46	beamso	is the key sequential or unique?
23:46	amalloy	vimuser21: reduce and recursion are both typical ways to immutably work with state
23:47	vimuser21	baemso: either would work =)
23:47	amalloy	for example, ##(reduce (fn [m [id x]] (assoc m id x)) {} (map list (range) '(a b c d))))
23:47	lazybot	⇒ {3 d, 2 c, 1 b, 0 a}
23:48	amalloy	which is really just a terrible way of writing (into {} (map-indexed vector '(a b c d))), to demonstrate how reduce can hold state
23:48	ivan	Raynes: if you are wondering why refheap is full of anonymous forks, it's the crawlers hitting /fork
23:48	vimuser21	amalloy: hm let me read the example for a second, i had the idea of passing in the last known value into a function so it can generate a new value
23:49	ivan	GET is a no-no for mutation
23:49	beamso	if it was sequential a vector and remembering the offset could suffice
23:49	amalloy	vimuser21: here, (range) is my standin for an infinite lazy seq of IDs
23:49	amalloy	ivan: hah. he could add a robots.txt too, right? "plz no fork"
23:53	vimuser21	amalloy: hm, well what about throwing in something like async? i had the idea of basically each id is pre-fixed with a number, and you can do async stuff by pre-pending id's with, for a back of a better term, the current "runner", ie runner "0" woild generate 0-1,0-2,0-3, runner "1" would generate 1-0,1-1, etc.
23:53	vimuser21	i guess it still fits in though
23:55	vimuser21	amalloy: to explain the project i'm working on a bit more, it's an auto flowchart program, so you can type s-expressions and it will flow chart it out
23:56	vimuser21	amalloy: so yeah recursion could work, i just would have to be carrying this counter around which is kind of annoying and whish there was a better way…technically a "generator" would work but thats statefull
23:56	vimuser21	not sure if i can have my cake and eat it too if you know what i mean =) lol
23:57	amalloy	well, you can carry around a lazy sequence instead of a counter, which is generally prettier. but you'll still have to manage it by calling first to get a new id, and saving the result of rest to make sure you never see that id again
23:57	vimuser21	yeah
23:58	vimuser21	the first time i wrote it i didn't need id's, i bascially did "everything at once", parsing, drawing nodes, and connecting..but that code was sloppy
23:58	yuri_niyazov	I need some help with doseq and transients. So, I have a fairly complicated doseq statement, with a few nested sequences, :let bindings, and :when filtering
23:58	yuri_niyazov	inside the body, I want to accumulate some values into a transient
23:59	vimuser21	was hard to read and wasn't good imo, was mixing side effect code with non side effect stuff