#clojure – 2014-01-28

2014-01-28

00:00	tutysara	deadghost: right, we have lot of things packed together, but looks interesting
00:01	egghead	i've been enjoying liberator for web stuff in clj
00:01	deadghost	egghead, it's refreshing how these libs fit together
00:02	deadghost	as opposed to monolithic djagno/rails
00:02	tutysara	deadghost: *we -> they
00:02	deadghost	and not reinventing the wheel every five minutes like nodejs
00:04	tutysara	egghead: are you the same person who is famous for Angularjs videos
00:04	egghead	nope
00:04	deadghost	https://egghead.io/
00:04	deadghost	hah
00:05	tutysara	egghead: sorry :), are you use any tempting engine with liberator or doing a SP
00:05	tutysara	*SPA
00:05	egghead	spa
00:06	egghead	om
00:08	tutysara	i am not much of a front end person, so I though I will start with server side rendering with some tempting engine and then slowly move towards exposing data through apis and building frontends
00:09	egghead	tutysara: I can recommend laser
00:09	tutysara	egghead: okie, let me take a look
00:09	egghead	it does a great job of separating the raw html for your template transformations
00:12	deadghost	Raynes, would you recommend your laser lib over enlive?
00:12	egghead	loooooool
00:12	Raynes	No.
00:14	Raynes	It's hilariously slower than Enlive at the moment. Kinda feel like I need to get some time to investigate that before I tell people to use it.
00:14	deadghost	see that's why I love #clojure
00:14	deadghost	lib authors are right here
00:14	deadghost	and they'll tell your their code sucks and you shouldn't use it
00:14	Raynes	Well, I didn't say my code sucked.
00:14	Raynes	:p
00:14	egghead	lol don't let Raynes dissuade you, use laser!
00:15	Raynes	Just some changed introduced a few versions ago made it significantly slower than it was originally.
00:15	Raynes	And I haven't had time to look into/fix it.
00:15	Raynes	changes*
00:20	tutysara	I will wait for the release of deadghost 's enlive framework then ;)
00:26	deadghost	Raynes, I'm reading my blog
00:26	deadghost	*your
00:26	deadghost	my sister is thinking about homeschooling
00:26	deadghost	I haven't met any homeschooled people as far as I'm aware
00:27	tbaldridge	deadghost: boo!
00:27	deadghost	I just hear stories of fundies indoctrinating their kids
00:28	deadghost	tbaldridge, you come from homeschool land?
00:28	tbaldridge	Indeed
00:28	deadghost	did you come out weird
00:28	tbaldridge	very much so :-P
00:29	deadghost	I get the impression homeschooled kids come out weird
00:30	technomancy	we had a homeschooled 15-year-old give a presentation at seajure about the different optimizations he had implemented for a puzzle solver and the performance characteristics/trade-offs of each approach
00:30	technomancy	it was the most in-depth technical presentation anyone's given at the group; pretty amazing
00:30	tbaldridge	to be honest, that's where I saw the biggest benefit. I held a 8 hour/day job by the time I was 17, doing school at night and in the mornings. And still had time to learn programming.
00:31	technomancy	not really what you'd call typical I guess
00:31	tbaldridge	It's kindof amazing how much time you have when you don't have to sit on a bus or wait for people to understand what the teacher is saying.
00:32	deadghost	tbaldridge, how did your parents handle schooling
00:32	technomancy	there are lots of people in the seattle area that homeschool because they are concerned about their kids getting a good education rather than for religious reasons
00:36	deadghost	hah, now I wonder how many skilled clojurians started programming as 12 and are younger than me
00:36	deadghost	*at
00:36	deadghost	no one knows you're 12 online
00:36	technomancy	sitting in a classroom is actually a pretty great way to kill anyone's interest in learning
00:37	deadghost	tis true
00:37	tutysara	Raynes: do we have an example of using lib-noir access-rules used with form login
00:37	deadghost	I'm not sure how homeschooling works
00:37	deadghost	do they bring in teachers or something
00:37	technomancy	you don't get a lot of kids interested in math coming out of US schools, but honestly IMO it's shocking that there are any at all given the methods
00:37	tutysara	technomancy: :) :)
00:37	tbaldridge	deadghost: nah, for the most part anyone who has learned something can teach it.
00:38	deadghost	so tbaldridge did your parents do most of the teaching or have random people show up?
00:38	tbaldridge	when it came to stuff like math my parents said "here's a book, and the answer key, study it, ask if you have questions, we'll give you a test in 2 weeks"
00:38	deadghost	hahahaha
00:38	tutysara	technomancy: soo true for many classes during my college
00:38	technomancy	deadghost: there are no classes for infants to learn how to walk or babies to learn speech--children are naturally curious and learners. this only stops when they get put in classrooms.
00:38	deadghost	life skills that translate to programming 100%
00:40	technomancy	the most effective way to have kids learn is for them to be interested in something. encouraging that doesn't require a lot of training in a parent or a degree, just mindfulness.
00:40	deadghost	man technomancy I think I was so much more focused in middleschool and below
00:40	deadghost	get told to read a science book and read and remember every detail
00:42	deadghost	so technomancy would you homeschool
00:42	deadghost	sounds like you're going to or considering it
00:49	technomancy	deadghost: yeah, already doing it some
00:49	technomancy	http://technomancy.us/167
00:54	Raynes	deadghost: I champion homeschooling mostly because of how much free time it can give you.
00:54	quizdr	isn't there a repl command that searches through the docs of all functions for the string you've entered?
00:54	Raynes	find-doc
00:55	quizdr	that's the one thanks
00:56	Raynes	deadghost: The only reason a homeschooled child would come out 'weird' is if he or she were socially inept due to lack of interaction with other children.
00:56	Raynes	I picked up rollerblading. shrug
00:57	deadghost	so
00:57	deadghost	are you still into rollerblading?
00:58	Raynes	Nope.
00:58	deadghost	what happened to your childhood dream of becoming a rollerblade champion?
01:00	Raynes	My childhood dream was to be a rockstar.
01:00	deadghost	RIP dreams
01:00	Raynes	Actually, a country artist followed by a rockstar.
01:00	Raynes	Yes, there was a point in my life where I liked country music.
01:01	Raynes	It's hard not to when it's literally all you hear growing up.
01:01	Raynes	literally all the music you hear*
01:01	deadghost	makes me think of the times I sold stuff at fleamarkets
01:01	deadghost	mexican music all day
01:01	deadghost	and every song sounds the same
01:02	quizdr	Raynes i grew up in Oklahoma so I know what you are talking about. what part of the country are you referring to?
01:02	Raynes	Alabama
01:02	quizdr	ah my sis lives there
01:04	tutysara	yogthos: Is there an example project of using lib-noir access rules
01:23	sobel	My childhood dream was to not hate programming when I began to be a tool of trade
01:23	sobel	done
02:14	TEttinger	so... I'm fiddling with trying to re-implement the APL standard lib in clojure with normal english names, operating on nested seqs rather than arrays. But I'm hitting a snag where I'm not sure whether it makes sense to even support non-rectangular nesting (like [1 2 [1 2 3]]).
02:16	TEttinger	Mostly, I just want a bit better lib support for nested data, like an element-wise map that descends recursively.
02:29	machrider	noob here... trying to split my code across two files, the newly created file is producing: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Symbol, compiling:(myproj/ui.clj:1:1)
02:30	machrider	it's a pretty straightforward (ns myproj.ui) declaration that it seems to be choking on
02:31	machrider	not sure where to start trying to understand this error
02:32	joshuafcole_	machrider: Can you pastebin the new file in its entirety?
02:33	quizdr	machrider you may be calling a sequence function on something that is not a sequence
02:34	machrider	joshuafcole_: http://pastie.org/private/ln0jztpcxjckeowmgaokqhttp://pastie.org/private/ln0jztpcxjckeowmgaokq
02:34	machrider	i've been commenting things out trying to narrow it down
02:34	machrider	sorry, link: http://pastie.org/private/ln0jztpcxjckeowmgaokq
02:35	machrider	(attempting to learn clojure by writing a tetris clone)
02:35	quizdr	,(seq 5
02:35	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
02:35	quizdr	,(seq 5)
02:35	clojurebot	#<ExceptionInfo clojure.lang.ExceptionInfo: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long {:instance 5}>
02:35	quizdr	you see your error is similar
02:35	joshuafcole_	And can you also put up the stack trace?
02:36	machrider	quizdr: do you see the error in my code?
02:36	quizdr	most of the code in that paste is commented-out?
02:37	machrider	trace: http://pastie.org/private/b4waclf2xzewfkadkcdr8g
02:37	joshuafcole_	I can see a couple problems
02:38	machrider	the core file pulls in UI with: (:use [tetris.ui])
02:39	noonian	i think the :name key of gen-class is supposed to be a string and thats where the error is coming from
02:39	joshuafcole_	actually scratch that, the parens looks unbalanced but the font on pastie was just a bit hard to read
02:40	noonian	hmm, maybe not
02:40	joshuafcole_	interestingly, it's working just fine in LT
02:40	noonian	then i got to the second example on clojure docs :P
02:40	joshuafcole_	when I run your code
02:40	machrider	maybe it's a problem in my core.clj?
02:40	joshuafcole_	Seems plausible enough
02:42	machrider	what's the proper way to refer to that MainScreen class from the core namespace?
02:42	machrider	whether :use or otherwise..
02:44	noonian	i think you're supposed to namespace it like tetris.ui.MainScreen, then import it like a normal java class
02:45	noonian	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/gen-class
02:58	machrider	ok, it was the :implements line that broke it..
02:58	machrider	without it, compiles fine
03:02	machrider	because :implements expects a sequence...
03:02	machrider	fixed
03:10	TEttinger	any core.matrix users here? what type of tasks do you use it for, I wonder?
03:14	llasram	Matrix math mostly
03:14	llasram	:-D
03:16	llasram	Why do you ask?
03:26	xificurC	I was meaning to ask for a while now as I dont understand the low-level stuff, does one lose performance for AOT compiling clojure code into an uberjar? I read the jvm jit-compiles java code, does that mean it can only jit-compile java?
03:26	TEttinger	xificurC, it still JITs, it just reduces startup time
03:26	llasram	xificurC: The JVM JIT compiler compiles JVM bytecode, which is what you get when you AOT Clojure
03:26	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
03:26	llasram	Wow
03:27	llasram	clojurebot: The JVM JIT compiler compiles JVM bytecode, which?
03:27	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
03:27	llasram	whew
03:27	llasram	clojurebot: which?
03:27	clojurebot	I don't understand.
03:27	llasram	Ok, good. Although who knows what fact you just learned.
03:27	TEttinger	haha
03:27	xificurC	TEttinger, llasram, ok thanks
03:28	TEttinger	oh sorry llasram, asked and ran... I'm wondering if using the NDArray impl that comes with core.matrix would be suitable for general-purpose nested-sequence tasks.
03:29	llasram	TEttinger: Oh, I don't know. I've mostly been using the Mahout-backed implementation I've made, and need to find the time to polish and release
03:29	xificurC	there was another thing on my mind - what would be the benefits of clojure targeting llvm?
03:29	TEttinger	xificurC, easier calling of C for one
03:29	llasram	None of the existing implementations seem to have sparse matrix representations, alas
03:30	ddellacosta	xificurC: faster start up time I would imagine, in addition
03:30	TEttinger	llasram: ? there are some
03:30	noidi	&n
03:30	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: n in this context
03:30	llasram	TEttinger: Citation?
03:30	xificurC	and it would be os-agnostic, right?
03:30	xificurC	not like the jvm isnt
03:30	xificurC	but if I understand correctly llvm-compiled code would run faster than what runs on the jvm right now
03:31	TEttinger	https://github.com/mikera/core.matrix/blob/3e0028062f85789f64a8b5b7df821f54865f7e50/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/matrix/implementations.clj#L20
03:31	TEttinger	xificurC, unclear until someone does it. hotspot's a very good JIT
03:32	TEttinger	but it does startup slowly
03:32	llasram	TEttinger: Oh. Yeah, using a persistent map with reference instances for each key and value does not count :-)
03:32	xificurC	TEttinger: so hotspot's speed is comparable to, i dont know, compiled C?
03:32	TEttinger	haha fair enough
03:33	TEttinger	xificurC, when it's up to speed, it can be close. LLVM depends on how you manage to implement clojure on it. so does clojure on JVM
03:34	TEttinger	a big issue IMO with the JVM is needing to box... everything, almost, to make sense with generics
03:34	xificurC	TEttinger: interesting, i always thought java is very slow, guess its not true anymore
03:34	TEttinger	xificurC, it is slow to start up, less so with tiered compilation
03:35	TEttinger	what sucks is that oracle doesn't distribute a 32-bit windows server JVM (the fast one with more hotspot opts), only on 64-bit and/or non-windows
03:35	xificurC	well thanks for the clarification. it seems that jit is better in almost every way than aot compiling. now if I only understood how does jit work :)
03:35	TEttinger	not exactly.
03:36	TEttinger	JIT can do different opts, but they are all slower to start
03:36	TEttinger	take a look at luajit, it has an amazing JIT and has really very little type info in the language
03:37	TEttinger	java has to be AOT compiled to .class files (clojure has this as an option), then the .class files are JITed and the most-run paths get compiled to native code
03:38	xificurC	cant the startup be sped up or started ahead?
03:38	TEttinger	so in clojure, if you call "reduce" 2000 times, or other numbers on different hotspot implementations, hotspot kicks in and compiles it to machine code
03:39	TEttinger	absolutely. tiered compilation in Java 7's VM has good startup and hotspot performance
03:40	xificurC	I understand a tiny bit more again, thanks
03:41	TEttinger	still, a lot of it has to do with file reading, like how anything on the JVM needs rt.jar loaded (rt=run time), and that's a large file to be read from disk
03:41	TEttinger	solid state drives speed up startup for everything, that's included
03:41	xificurC	so you're saying everything has its use-case, llvm wont die because of increasingly better jits
03:41	TEttinger	oh llvm is doing great. rust is targeting it now I think
03:42	TEttinger	it's also home to clang, and clang is beloved by apple (it's the compiler in new XCode versions IIRC)
03:42	xificurC	ah, theres so much to learn nowadays
03:42	xificurC	and every day theres a new language hype
03:42	TEttinger	if you want, I have some JVM performance links open somewhere
03:42	xificurC	this month i see julia everywhere
03:43	xificurC	thats why i asked about llvm too i guess, its claiming to have close to C performance
03:43	xificurC	while staying dynamic
03:44	xificurC	TEttinger: sure why not, maybe I'll understand something :)
03:45	TEttinger	http://www.javacodegeeks.com/2011/07/jvm-options-client-vs-server.html this covers some
03:46	TEttinger	http://www.javaworld.com/article/2078623/core-java/jvm-performance-optimization--part-1--a-jvm-technology-primer.html?page=1 may be better
03:47	TEttinger	yeah the second one is a good intro, but it seems to get pretty in-depth
03:48	xificurC	i'll check the second one for sure, once I find time, now work is calling
03:48	TEttinger	LLVM has close to C performance when it's C that's being run on it, for sure.
03:48	TEttinger	ok, have a good one
03:49	xificurC	TEttinger: and julia is c?
03:49	TEttinger	I think Julia is another language?
03:51	TEttinger	yeah, Julia looks great for performance. seems to have a very different focus from clojure from how I see it so far
03:52	bacq	hi
03:52	TEttinger	hey bacq
03:57	djcoin	Hi there, i'm not a specialist of the java world but is it normal that when I launch something like "lein cljsbuild auto myproject", I get like 15 java processes each taking 10+Mo of memory doing most of the time... nothing ?
03:59	djcoin	(+ ~20 java -client processes each taking 2.3 mo ? - not such a big deal maybe but like it is normal ? Why so many processes ?!)
04:00	TEttinger	djcoin, I wonder if it's not closing them
04:04	fredyr	julia is llvm based jit iirc
04:05	TEttinger	yeah
04:06	fredyr	one of the biggest issues w/ targeting llvm for clojure is to get a gc thats comparable w/ the jvm for concurrency stuff
04:07	fredyr	i would think at least
04:08	xificurC	TEttinger: can you explain the different focus?
04:10	TEttinger	xificurC, clojure is (was originally?) aimed at compatibility with java libs, being a lisp, and having support for concurrency like no other language did at the time. concurrency has become less of a focus as people have found it's just a really productive environment to work with! julia seems laser-targeted at scientific computing, but I could be wrong
04:11	katox	djcoin: I run the latest version of cljs and cljsbbuild and I see nothing like 15+ java processes
04:12	logic_prog	https://github.com/clojure/core.typed <-- is there a guide somewhere here for me to learn core.typed ?
04:12	arcatan	logic_prog: maybe this one --> https://github.com/clojure/core.typed/wiki/User-Guide <--
04:13	logic_prog	(inc arcatan)
04:13	lazybot	⇒ 1
04:13	katox	djcoin: actually a single java -client process (while having cljsbuild on auto)
04:13	logic_prog	wait, isn't atan = arctan, thus arcatan = tan ?
04:13	djcoin	katox: hm, what have i done then :< THanks katox
04:14	katox	djcoin: sounds like something is spawning and not closing processes, hard to say. are you uptodate with lein and cljsbuild and cljs?
04:16	djcoin	katox: Lein 2.3.2 ; BUt i'm worried that this may come from my OS or something, I got like 20+/usr/lib/chromium too despites having just a few tab
04:17	djcoin	Same goes for LightTAble
04:17	katox	weird
04:17	katox	I can't actually run light table since 0.6 update, so I can't check
04:28	elsen	Has anyone read the "Web dev with clojure" from the pragmatic bookshelf?
04:29	xificurC	TEttinger: thanks
04:29	TEttinger	no prob
04:55	deadghost	elsen, currently reading it
05:03	elsen	Nice, from what you already read, would you recommend it?
05:03	elsen	I'd like to get into clojure dev and web dev seem's like the best way to start
05:04	elsen	(I'd rather do data crunching with it, but nothing comes close to ipython notebook right now :(
05:05	deadghost	elsen, it's a pretty light read and is filling in a lot of gaps for me
05:05	deadghost	in fact I'd say light read makes it a plus
05:05	deadghost	226 pages
05:05	deadghost	and covers everything to get writing
05:09	elsen	does it cover testing and databases orm?
05:09	elsen	that's the part I'm missing most in online tutorials :x
05:10	deadghost	well it covers databases
05:10	deadghost	as for orm I know it mentions korma but I haven't seen it used yet
05:11	deadghost	elsen, looking at table of contents it has tests
05:11	elsen	ok, I'll give it a try then, thanks for the info!
05:12	fredyr	theres a unit test section according to the toc as well
05:12	deadghost	elsen, it covers korma orm but it's only 3 pages
05:12	fredyr	but doesn't seem to be a lot of focus on tho
05:12	deadghost	at the end of the book
05:13	deadghost	yeah just 4 pages on unit testing
05:13	elsen	yea that's.... light
05:13	deadghost	then again I sorta like the lightness
05:13	deadghost	read it, try it
05:13	deadghost	http://www.clojurebook.com/
05:13	deadghost	^that thing though
05:13	deadghost	that thing is a dense monster
05:14	d11wtq	I'm writing code that talks to redis and would like to TDD it. In an OO language I'd stub the redis connection object. What's the best way to do this sort of thing in Clojure?
05:14	elsen	Yea, been there
05:14	deadghost	elsen, how did that go over
05:15	elsen	badly, I've read the kindle version, layout of examples, tables, etc was messed up
05:15	DerGuteMoritz	d11wtq: why TDD that, isn't there a spec for the protocol?
05:15	d11wtq	DerGuteMoritz: Well, I'm not talking raw to the protocol, I'm using Carmine.
05:16	elsen	deadghost: but that's a nice reference later
05:16	d11wtq	DerGuteMoritz: I didn't fancy re-inveting the wheel there.
05:16	DerGuteMoritz	d11wtq: ah, just noticed I misread that as you wanting to implement a redis client
05:16	DerGuteMoritz	alrighty then!
05:16	d11wtq	DerGuteMoritz: Nah, just using Redis as a storage backend
05:16	llasram	d11wtq: Stub the functions. Using clojure.test you can use `with-redefs`, or if using midje it has explicit support for that sort of thing
05:16	deadghost	"The perfect second Clojure book: Clojure Programming goes beyond the language basics and shows how to apply Clojure to a variety of practical tasks. "
05:16	deadghost	the thing is I'm not sure what the first book is supposed to be
05:16	deadghost	I picked up clojure from common lisp
05:17	elsen	deadghost: joy of clojure?
05:17	d11wtq	llasram: Thanks! I didn't know about with-redefs, that sounds useful!
05:17	deadghost	is it
05:17	deadghost	?
05:17	d11wtq	Not using midje. Tried it months ago. Found it hacky and too magic :)
05:17	llasram	d11wtq: I feel similarly, but is designed to fit more of a TDD workflow
05:18	fredyr	seems to me all the clojure books are good second books :)
05:19	d11wtq	llasram: I'm just nesting (testing "when foo is true" (testing "in this situation" (testing "this thing happens" ... ))) macros together, so I feel more like I'm in RSpec :P
05:19	d11wtq	It gets a bit deeply nested though, especially with the surrounding lets.
05:20	deadghost	to be fair fredyr I don't know if I've ever met a solid, you should definitely start on this beginner's book
05:21	deadghost	common lisp: a gentle guide to symbolic computation is up there though
05:21	fredyr	deadghost: yeah i guess you're right
05:21	deadghost	k&r is goodish
05:21	fredyr	otoh i usually like to dive in even though its a bit too much the first read
05:22	deadghost	sicp didn't click with me when I attempted it
05:23	deadghost	learn x the hard way have been too shallow when I ran through them
05:23	elsen	deadghost: practical common lisp is an awesome first contact with common lisp
05:24	deadghost	tried it, I have gentle introduction
05:24	deadghost	*favor
05:24	elsen	good to know
05:24	deadghost	PCL might be fine for people a bit more experienced
05:32	katox	d11wtq: https://github.com/amitrathore/conjure is not bad either, a tiny bit more fancy version of with-redefs
05:33	escherize	has anyone had a job interview in clj?
05:33	llasram	Most of my job interviews are conducted in Engglish
05:33	llasram	English even
05:35	escherize	do you typically write english when asked programming problems?
05:35	llasram	Sorry, bad joke :-)
05:35	escherize	me too ^^;
05:35	escherize	i had an interview today
05:35	llasram	I've never interviewed for Clojure, but have conducted interviews for Clojure positions on my team
05:35	escherize	oh. what kind of procedure did you use?
05:35	deadghost	do you fizzbuzz them
05:36	escherize	fizzbuzz lol
05:36	llasram	Honestly a bit slap-dash. We have some standard questions we ask everyone. I don't think they're optimal, but at least by asking everyone the same things we get something like a baseline for comparison
05:37	escherize	my friend thinks one should devite incredible energy to interviewing
05:37	llasram	For Clojure I usually just see how deeply they know the language, core abstractions, mapping to JVM constructs, etc
05:37	escherize	he means: it literally affects the quality of the interviewer's life in a very meaningful way
05:38	escherize	devote*
05:39	llasram	The one conducting the interview or being interviewed?
05:39	escherize	the interviewer, afaik
05:39	escherize	the one asking questions, i mean.
05:40	llasram	Ok, yeah, then I agree. It's important to make sure your org has only the people you want
05:40	escherize	fizzbuzz is rather awk in clojure.
05:41	llasram	? with core.match it's like 2 lines
05:41	escherize	https://github.com/clojure/core.match
05:41	llasram	Ok, 3 unless your formatting is insane, but you know what I mean
05:42	llasram	Oh, forgot it was the example in the README :-)
05:42	llasram	Heh
05:42	deadghost	hah that's cute
05:42	llasram	Ok, so a few more than 3 :-)
05:44	deadghost	qtiest fizzbuzz
05:45	escherize	I still think it's kind of awkward though
05:46	escherize	oh i rather like this one:
05:46	escherize	(map vector(range 1 99)(cycle[nil nil"fizz"])(cycle[nil nil nil nil"buzz"]))
05:46	escherize	source: http://clojurefun.wordpress.com/2012/09/21/code-golf-in-clojure/
05:47	wink	interviewing is fun as long as you don't do 2 per day :P
05:47	escherize	i was asked a question that i wanted to use clojure on
05:47	escherize	in the context of a python interview
05:47	wink	we actually don't do any coding questions
05:47	escherize	what do you do?
05:48	deadghost	doesn't that result in sadness?
05:48	wink	mostly how they work, what they work on, what they like and don't like
05:48	wink	so far this was enough to tell how they will fit in
05:49	wink	we're not a one-language shop, so wouldn't make sense to test their knowledge anyway
05:49	deadghost	work at 1am to 8am, automated irc anime bots, maids
05:50	wink	I am not totally opposed to coding questions, as long as you let the interviewee do some sensible stuff
05:50	wink	like: not have em write on a flipboard with a broken feltpen
05:50	wink	or: don't shout at them for leaving out a semicolon
05:51	escherize	["top" "stop" "tops" "awk" "pot"] => [["top" "pot"] ["stop" "tops"] ["awk"]]
05:51	escherize	I've interviewed a lot but not in clojure until today
05:52	dsrx	my favorite interview question at the last job was "write a function in javascript without using Math.min that returns the smallest number in an array"
05:52	dsrx	because of the sheer number of people it filtered out
05:52	escherize	ouch
05:52	dsrx	I eventually removed the math.min restriction when i figured out "knows how to use apply" was a high bar as well among our candidate pool :D
05:53	escherize	that reminds me of joel spolsky
05:53	escherize	http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/GuerrillaInterviewing3.html
05:54	dsrx	I never got a single person who used or even hinted at using a reduce :(
05:54	deadghost	my first thought was reduce
05:54	deadghost	then I had to think about how someone would normally do it
05:55	dsrx	some of the answers would have worked but only on lists of numbers > 0
05:55	deadghost	does js even have reduce?
05:55	deadghost	I don't even know
05:56	dsrx	er only when the first element was > 0 I guess
05:56	dsrx	deadghost: modern browsers have it natively yeah, and typical utility libraries provide it as well
05:56	lynxluna	i think the y have
05:57	deadghost	I know there's that one functional js lib
05:57	escherize	lodash? underscore?
05:57	deadghost	underscore
05:57	dsrx	errrr no wait
05:57	dsrx	it was to find the maximum of a list :V
05:57	dsrx	I should not be chatting while this tired
05:58	escherize	,(reduce #(if (< %1 %2) %2 %1) [1 2 3 4 5])
05:58	clojurebot	5
05:58	dsrx	yeah it was max, and people would typically provide something that didn't work on lists of negative numbers.
05:58	escherize	did i do that D:
05:58	escherize	,(reduce #(if (< %1 %2) %2 %1) [-1 -2 -3 -4 -5])
05:58	clojurebot	-1
05:58	dsrx	,(doc reduce)
05:58	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f val coll]); f should be a function of 2 arguments. If val is not supplied, returns the result of applying f to the first 2 items in coll, then applying f to that result and the 3rd item, etc. If coll contains no items, f must accept no arguments as well, and reduce returns the result of calling f with no arguments. If coll has only 1 item, it is returned and f is not called. If val i...
05:59	dsrx	typical answer was like this https://www.refheap.com/28708
06:00	escherize	that looks pretty typical
06:02	deadghost	oh geez
06:02	deadghost	actually took my brain a while to process
06:03	deadghost	I don't think I've used a for loop in at least two months
06:03	escherize	can we ever go back to that ?
06:04	deadghost	deadghost very simple man
06:05	deadghost	he doesn't like keeping track of state, assignment, counts, and all that jazz
06:06	escherize	i watched simple made easy tonight
06:06	escherize	i wanted to start learning clojure again
06:09	tim_	anyone use selmer templating library?
06:13	d11wtq	tim_: I'm planning on it, just because I don't want to write HTML using Clojure.
06:13	d11wtq	tim_: Or rather, I don't want to make our front-end devs write Clojure.
06:20	tim_	ust wondered if anyone knew how to loop n times in selmer? looping over a list is straight forward.
06:21	d11wtq	tim_: Does {% for i in (range 0 n) %} work?
06:22	tim_	let me see....
06:23	d11wtq	tim_: The answer with 117 upvotes here might work too: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1107737/numeric-for-loop-in-django-templates
06:24	d11wtq	{% for i in "xxxxxx" %} to loop 6 times.
06:24	d11wtq	I prefer a range though. It's clearer.
06:25	elsen	for i in "123456" ? :D
06:26	d11wtq	elsen: Works nicely until you go >= 10 :P
06:26	elsen	you can get to 16 with hexa :D
06:27	tim_	Hmmm, i've tried the range and string methods but no luck.
06:27	d11wtq	tim_: The answer by
06:27	lynxluna	erm, can u use enlive d11wtq?
06:27	d11wtq	Guillermo Siliceo Trueba
06:28	d11wtq	Is also good.
06:28	d11wtq	But you need to write a filter.
06:28	tim_	i've checked syntax as have a for loop working on a list further down the page.
06:28	tim_	i started with enlive and moved away from it as there are some open bugs regarding disabling the template caching.
06:30	deadghost	enlive has been eh for me so far
06:30	deadghost	hasn't been easy for me to figure out how to use it
06:31	deadghost	and I find myself doing things kind of hacky/uncleanly
06:32	lynxluna	hmm I used it to create just a simple web apps, so I think experience varies. But definitely will look at the bugs you mentioned
06:32	tim_	I'll try the filter approach.....
06:33	deadghost	for example, it adds head and body tags when getting an html snippet from file
06:33	lynxluna	I created simple web apps for motivation to lean Clojure, my background was all fully imperative, non-web, C++.
06:33	deadghost	and needing to extract the body every time
06:34	lynxluna	*learn
06:34	tim_	Whats the general verdict regarding clojure for web apps? is it more popular for backend systems.
06:34	lynxluna	I'd look at it
06:35	lynxluna	I never code web before using language other than Clojure. I touched PHP a decade ago but never liked it.
06:35	clgv	tim_: with all the effort going into CLJS I guess there is also a lot of interest in running the frontend with Clojure(Script)
06:35	lynxluna	My current experience has been a little bit rocky but amazing
06:36	d11wtq	clgv: I'd be interested to try ClojureScript in Node.js on the server too.
06:36	lynxluna	d11wtq: that will be interesting
06:37	katox	bumpy ride ;)
06:39	clgv	d11wtq: well just try. I currently only implemented a server program in clojure which worked pretty well :)
06:41	d11wtq	clgv: Yeah, I'm doing web stuff in Clojure too. Haven't finished anything yet, but started a websockets-based app (using httpkit) in my last job before I quit and building a distributed queueing/scheduling system with a web frontend now, for fun.
06:41	clgv	d11wtq: queueing/scheduling for remote task execution on multiple machines?
06:42	d11wtq	clgv: Yep.
06:42	clgv	d11wtq: that's exactly what I built ;)
06:42	d11wtq	clgv: Hah :)
06:42	d11wtq	clgv: Do you have a link?
06:42	clgv	d11wtq: no. there is no public release so far.
06:42	d11wtq	clgv: I'm just writing this as a learning experience in Cloure, using Redis as a data store.
06:43	d11wtq	clgv: Pretty much a Sorted Set and a Hash, with some MULTI..EXEC to take jobs out of the sorted set and that's it (in Redis).
06:45	clgv	d11wtq: what do you use for communication?
06:45	clgv	d11wtq: I built a message passing communication with clojure maps as messages on top of Java RMI
06:46	d11wtq	clgv: Carmine, for talking to Redis. Haven't started the Web UI yet (less important) but will use httpkit so I can do websockets and then I'm gonna try PolymerJS on the front-end.
06:46	d11wtq	clgv: Ah the nodes don't talk directly to each other... it's centered around Redis/Redis Cluster.
06:47	clgv	d11wtq: ah ok
06:48	clgv	d11wtq: so we are talking about different use cases ^^
06:48	d11wtq	clgv: I think so :)
06:48	clgv	d11wtq: my ultimate goal was to have a remote executing `future`
06:49	d11wtq	clgv: I'm basically implementing Sidekiq (from Ruby) in Clojure, except more flexible and with the ability to repeat-schedule things, from any of the machines running the code, without worrying about dupes.
06:49	d11wtq	clgv: Well that's pretty much the end result of mine too :P
06:50	d11wtq	clgv: (schedue/add s [:in "5 minutes"] #(println "bob"))
06:50	d11wtq	clgv: The (println ..) is captured and put into Redis, then read back out on the other side.
06:51	clgv	d11wtq: the difficult part is to get the code to the workers without having pre-deploy it^^
06:51	d11wtq	clgv: Obviously anything listening to the queues needs to know about any functions that are references.
06:51	d11wtq	*referenced
06:51	d11wtq	clgv: That's how Sidekiq/Resque work too.
06:52	d11wtq	clgv: Sounds like yours is gonna be better if you don't need to run the code on the remote side :)
06:53	d11wtq	Mine's more like a weekend project to do the queueing part. The web UI will be the interesting bit for me.
06:58	escherize	is there a best practice for accepting something like [f & args]
06:58	d11wtq	escherize: How do you mean?
06:58	escherize	sometimes the function i'm writing seems to want to take a list
06:59	escherize	if args is a list to begin with, how should i handle that
06:59	d11wtq	escherize: You can use (apply f args)
06:59	d11wtq	escherize: If I'm understanding what you're asking correctly.
06:59	escherize	but can it accept both?
07:00	escherize	https://www.refheap.com/28715
07:00	d11wtq	escherize: Well, not without some hacks, since how do you know that the list wasn't just the first argument?
07:01	d11wtq	escherize: Yeah, so in that snippet it's ambiguous which one would be correct.
07:02	escherize	i wish less terms were called map
07:02	escherize	i think i should rename that anyway
07:02	escherize	i think i'll use apply. thanks for the guidance :]
07:03	d11wtq	escherize: No worries. apply is for that purpose.
07:04	escherize	i could also
07:04	escherize	just make the signitue [f args] rather than [f & args]
07:04	escherize	if i'll always expect a list
07:05	d11wtq	escherize: Yep, or [f arg1 & rest], then do a type-check on arg1... but you need to be sure of the potential ways it will be called.
07:05	d11wtq	Otherwise you may incorrectly convert a vector/list to multiple args.
07:09	clgv	d11wtq: well it definitely runs the code on the remote side
07:10	d11wtq	clgv: Nice, that's impressive :)
07:12	d11wtq	I love how you can think about something complex for days and bit by bit you think up simpler/cleaner ways to do the same thing until eventually you have a picture of something simple and beautiful in your head. Isn't programming just wonderful? :P
07:13	d11wtq	Well. That's not so much programming, as thinking. But you know what I mean.
07:15	d11wtq	Am I mis-using namespaces? I find I create a namespace in Clojure in much the same way I'd create a class in an OO language.
07:16	d11wtq	They're generally just logically grouped functions that all operate on the same data structures though.
07:19	escherize	i need to pull some 5k line file into memory. should i use defonce?
07:35	sveri	hi, when i use (get map "key") is there a way to provide an alternative if the key does not exist?
07:36	ior3k	sveri: just another another argument to get
07:36	ior3k	just add*
07:36	d11wtq	sveri: (doc get) in the repl.
07:37	ior3k	,(get {:one 1} :two 2)
07:37	clojurebot	2
07:37	d11wtq	,(doc get)
07:37	clojurebot	"([map key] [map key not-found]); Returns the value mapped to key, not-found or nil if key not present."
07:37	d11wtq	:)
07:49	scape_	devn: thanks for the help last night, I'll give those a try; I do notice that this results in user1, when I expect user2; (clojure.set/difference (into #{} (map (comp :uuid val) {:thing1 {:uuid "user1"} :thing2 {:uuid "user2"}})) #{"user1"})
07:56	clgv	,({:one 1} :two 2)
07:56	clojurebot	2
08:02	podviaznikov	Hey, I want to mention here my project jarkeeper.com. It makes badges for Clojure projects. It checks status of dependencies. Example is here: http://www.jarkeeper.com/xsc/lein-ancient and on GitHub page - https://github.com/xsc/lein-ancient
08:03	edbond	podviaznikov, looks nice
08:04	edbond	podviaznikov, search doesn't works, 404
08:04	edbond	http://www.jarkeeper.com/korma
08:05	vijaykiran	edbond: edbond: you should use the github way of repo
08:05	podviaznikov	you should put full repo name actually: /korma/Korma -> http://www.jarkeeper.com/korma/Korma
08:06	edbond	ok
08:09	deadghost	anyone have much experience with small businesses?
08:09	deadghost	thinking of just going door to door asking about their problems
08:09	deadghost	and see I can solve any of them with programming
08:11	clgv	podviaznikov: the input field doesnt even show me what I type...
08:12	edbond	clgv, PR welcome :)
08:12	clgv	edbond: huh what?
08:13	edbond	clgv, it's opensource
08:13	clgv	edbond: that was critcism. not that I need that project. I just wanted to try it and the UI failed me as soon as it could ;)
08:13	podviaznikov	clgv: thanks. I see that some problem in Firefox. Works in Chrome. Checking firefox now
08:14	clgv	podviaznikov: firefox 26 it is indeed
08:14	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
08:18	podviaznikov	clgv: fixed and deployed. Thanks for letting me know. That was unexpected
08:20	edbond	podviaznikov, nice, padding was not needed indeed :)
08:20	clgv	podviaznikov: works now
08:21	podviaznikov	edbond:yep. But still strange that padding took content's space. Why it worked in Chrome but not in FF
08:23	fredyr_	pmbauer: ping
08:40	deadghost	http://i.imgur.com/O0tOSlx.png
08:40	deadghost	I'm thinking just keeping it simple and one page
08:40	deadghost	show note on right side with ajax and liberator
08:55	maravillas	nice project podviaznikov
09:00	podviaznikov	maravillas thanks!
09:00	katox	web version of lein ancient, cool ;)
09:00	katox	podviaznikov: good job
09:01	podviaznikov	katox, thanks! exactly, it's just fronted for lein-ancient
09:26	CookedGryphon	does anybody have an idea how many running go-blocks are workable in core.async?
09:26	CookedGryphon	assuming they're all doing little bits of arithmetic work, what sort of order of magnitude should I be thinking of before a modern computer will start to struggle?
09:27	CookedGryphon	I'm not looking for exact numbers or benchmarks here, just a general idea of the scale at which I should be creating go blocks
09:27	CookedGryphon	between say, the number of buttons on a web page, through to 10e6 body physics simutations for example
09:38	clgv	CookedGryphon: I guess the same rules as for ThreadPoolExecutors apply in this case as well
09:39	CookedGryphon	clgv: not necessarily.
09:39	clgv	CookedGryphon: it is implemented on top of them for Clojure JVM ;)
09:40	CookedGryphon	I'm not worried about keeping everything running in real time or anything like that, more that it will keep going and complete the task/simulation without reaching a limit where it locks up and dies
09:40	clgv	CookedGryphon: you really want to do a physics simulation with core.async?
09:41	CookedGryphon	the problems I'm thinking of are inherently complex and long running, my question is, do the simplicity gains of core.async get outweighed by the fact that there's too much admin overhead past a certain point
09:41	CookedGryphon	that was just an example
09:41	CookedGryphon	of whmere thinking about channels and individual go loops would potentially simplify things
09:42	clgv	CookedGryphon: for too many very small calculations you certainly introduce a lot of overhead
09:42	CookedGryphon	yeah, I know that, I'm asking if anybody knowledgeable about the internals who might have done their own load tests or whatever, can give me an idea of the order of magnitude at which the returns significantly diminish
09:42	CookedGryphon	from their experience
09:43	CookedGryphon	for example, I've seen a web demo with 20,000 little robots moving about, works great. Is that the upper limit, or what?
09:43	tim_	@CookedGrypton you would need to tune for your problem based on your hardware, task length and num tasks in parallel
09:44	clgv	tim_: yeah, that's what I think as weel
09:44	CookedGryphon	tim_: yeah, obviously in the end to get it running faster. What I want to know is whether it's even worth starting down this road
09:45	CookedGryphon	or whether I'm going to hit a roadblock sooner rather than later
09:45	CookedGryphon	and it's just a bad idea for problems with thousands of chans
09:49	tim_	There is no number i can give as a limit. I suggest a quick prototype and it should highlight some more specific potential issues.
09:50	shep-werk	CookedGryphon: and then write a blog post on your results so us lurkers can benefit too :-)
09:50	clgv	CookedGryphon: can you describe the problem you want to use that for?
09:52	CookedGryphon	tim_: okay, I'll knock something up, and shep-werk I've been meaning to start blogging about stuff, perhaps this will spur me into doing so
09:53	CookedGryphon	clgv: not concisely, it's a simulation problem with lots of interacting parts though. I'm looking into actors as an alternative model
09:56	clgv	CookedGryphon: humm actors will have similar behaviour I guess
09:57	tim_	A vague idea If you have a very large number of small units of work to process, i would batch them up and send to a few workers to process concurrently.
09:57	clgv	CookedGryphon: I think the tradeoff is using actor/go-block indirection or writing a tight-loop to simulate the particles
09:58	clgv	as many workers as cpu cores and each has its "particle space" to update
09:59	CookedGryphon	Hmm, It's not quite that simple. Part of the simulation is going to be in which actors finish first, race conditions are almost a part of the simulation!
10:00	CookedGryphon	I'll write up in more detail in a blog post I think
10:00	CookedGryphon	and do some experiments to see how many go blocks I can usefully get running!
10:00	clgv	CookedGryphon: that'll probably help discussing it
10:08	tim_	i'm trying to get a filter to work in selmer, but i keep getting a Null pointer. (render "{{5\|times}}" {}) times is my filter (defn times [n] (info "times" n)(range 0 n))
10:08	tim_	n is always nil
10:09	tim_	i can replicate in the repl, but can't see what i've done wrong.
10:10	korenani	was wondering is there a canonical bitcoin client for clojure?
10:11	arrdem	$google clojure bitcoin client github
10:11	lazybot	[kenrestivo/pawnshop · GitHub] https://github.com/kenrestivo/pawnshop
10:11	ToxicFrog	tim_: pretty sure that you can't put constants where variable names are expected in selmer
10:12	ToxicFrog	try (render "{{n\|times}}" {:n 5})
10:12	tim_	ah
10:13	tim_	thanks, that works great.
10:14	ToxicFrog	(it allows numeric constants for things like passing in lists as the environment, so {{5\|times}} looks up the key 5 in {}, gets no value, and passes nil to times)
10:15	tim_	i see. was confused as can see constants used in selmer expressions.
10:15	korenani	thanks arrdem
10:16	ToxicFrog	tim_: yeah, expressions and filters/variables use different rules.
10:19	sdegutis	is there a dogecoin client for clojure?
10:19	arrdem	sdegutis: I was working on a dogecoin trading facility...
10:20	sdegutis	sweet
10:20	arrdem	sdegutis: I don't think there's a real "wallet" system but I haven't looked.
10:20	arrdem	$google clojure dogecoin github
10:20	lazybot	[sinemetu1 (Sam Garrett) · GitHub] https://github.com/sinemetu1
10:20	sdegutis	then it is doomed
10:20	arrdem	sdegutis: I meant a Clojure implementation/wrapper of one.
10:21	arrdem	sdegutis: obviously there's a dogecoin wallet.
10:21	sdegutis	you say obviously as if its obvious :P
10:21	sdegutis	all i know about dogecoin is its just such wow, so currency
10:21	arrdem	lolz. it's a fork of litecoin, which is a 3rd generation fork of bitcoin.
10:22	arrdem	so all the infrastructure is the same except for the proof of work function and a few other implementation details.
10:22	sdegutis	ah
10:30	jph_	dogecoin is a bit more widely distributed since more people knew how to mine when it launched, and it has faster blocks, and higher max coins than lite or bitcoin
10:31	arrdem	jph_: this, and it's SCRYPT based which makes it more resistant to ASIC hardware...
10:31	jph_	arrdem, correct
10:31	arrdem	not that there aren't still ASICs...
10:31	arcatan	also dogecoin has better branding
10:31	jph_	arrdem, and they're actively considering making it harder for asics by (i think) increasing the mem requirements
10:32	arrdem	jph_: I know people who were in BTC early with ASIC hardware. Changing the mem requirements is just gonna screw them a little bit, it won't stop anything.
10:32	jph_	arrdem, and i think that's all they want to do, the longer they can delay asics, the greater distribution for average people with GPUs
10:33	arrdem	I had an interesting conversation with some finance guys here at UT who argued that ASICs are a _good_ thing because they constitute a mimimization of the network transaction costs.
10:34	arrdem	that said, I do like being able to mine effectively with just my gaming box :P
10:34	jph_	arrdem, i'd suggest they're stuck in an old-world centralization mindset
10:34	jph_	yes it might be 'better', but is it 'good' ?
10:35	jph_	anyhow, i think dogecoin is good for cryptocurrency, in the sense that the average person doesn't ahve to fork out between$20-$750 USD for 1
10:36	arrdem	the only issue I take with ASICs is that the hardware is so expensive that the people who build and buy that class of hardware are coin hoarders, which reduces circulation.
10:36	jph_	instead they can get 10,000+ for $20 USD
10:36	jph_	arrdem, asics are the 1% of the cryptocoin world
10:37	arrdem	jph_: indeed they are, but their mining power is so huge that it is very significant. My "average gaming rig" pulls about 350KH/s. A first round ASIC is easily gonna pull 1GH/s at the same power draw.
10:37	jph_	yeh
10:37	arrdem	s/significant/important/g
10:37	jph_	but we havent seen any scrypt quite that powerful
10:38	jph_	im sure they're coming tho
10:39	arrdem	jph_: none have been announced. Given the character and general secrecy of the BTC ASIC crowd I know I'd bet my life that hardware of that calibre is already online.
10:39	jph_	i only spotted one company last time i researched working on scrypt chips
10:40	jph_	i don tthink the chip manufacturers see the ROI for scrypt asics
10:40	jph_	im sure there could be small runs tho
10:40	jph_	for private miners
10:40	arrdem	bit chip makers don't, the issue is the private miners who do small runs.
10:42	arrdem	now back to our regularly programmed clojure chatter...
10:42	jph_	heh
10:43	jph_	im just fiddling with caribou, getting used to it's routing engine
10:49	tim_	i'm playing with monger, its working well at the moment...
10:50	CookedGryphon	tim_: until you need to interact with more than one connection iirc
10:50	arrdem	(inc Cookedgryphon)
10:50	lazybot	⇒ 2
10:50	CookedGryphon	though they may have fixed that in newer versions
10:50	tim_	more than connection per thread?
10:50	arrdem	tim_: per system :/
10:50	tim_	lol
10:51	noprompt	any good ideas around testing async/stateful code in clojurescript?
10:53	CookedGryphon	tim_: I use congomongo whenever I need to do mongo stuff
10:53	CookedGryphon	less side effecting, universally setting options like congomongo. I find the syntax nicer too
10:53	arrdem	CookedGryphon: congomongo does have a connection param everywhere, right?
10:54	CookedGryphon	right, or a with-connection macro which sets a dynamic var
10:54	CookedGryphon	for a given context
10:54	arrdem	yep yep.
10:54	tim_	i'm just panic googling the connection limit issue....
10:55	CookedGryphon	but even that works nicely if you want to nest for example (with-connection conn1 (let [data-from-conn1 ...] (with-connection conn2 (insert! data-from-conn1)))...
11:01	arrdem	eh dynamic vars and lazy-seqs...
11:02	CookedGryphon	arrdem: good point... can't remember if I hit that when I did it
11:02	CookedGryphon	shouldn't the lazy seq capture the dynamic var's value?
11:03	CookedGryphon	it's closed in by that point surely
11:03	CookedGryphon	(not= dynamic mutable)
11:03	CookedGryphon	?
11:03	arrdem	`cbp and bitemyapp did a good job with revise in that the connection was always an explicit value.
11:04	arrdem	CookedGryphon: lazy seqs don't capture anything. dynamic vars are resolved at sequence realization.
11:05	CookedGryphon	arrdem: fair enough. This was ages ago, i might have passed in the connections explicitly
11:06	CookedGryphon	though i remember being annoyed that I couldn't do that, so all my little helper functions had with-connection wrappers for trivial single calls which was annoying
11:06	CookedGryphon	gtg, back in a bit;
11:12	S11001001	CookedGryphon: dynamic & mutable are the same in that references to them are not referentially transparent. Which makes them quite similar indeed, though not exactly equivalent, as you say. So there are useful analogies to be made.
11:29	dkinzer	Is referential transparency thrown out the window when one is dealing with macros? Recently I was forced to create a global variable for a value and use it in a macro instead of just being able to pass the value to the macro as an argument.
11:30	noprompt	dnolen: any good ideas around testing async stuff while awaiting chas' updates to clojurescript.test?
11:38	S11001001	dkinzer: iff the behavior of the macro's expansion does not have the RT property, that usage of the macro is not RT. So it sounds like your particular macro never yields RT expressions, but there are plenty of macros that yield RT expressions for RT arguments.
11:40	S11001001	An example of the latter is `cond', or `let'.
11:47	dnolen	noprompt: I thought chas landed some async support
11:49	katox	dnolen: thanks for the mention of set-state to handle the case of throwing the update away in the tutorial. spent some time wondering what am I doing wrong few days ago
11:50	dnolen	katox: yes, I hope to come up with something better but this will have to do for now
11:50	dnolen	katox: it does have the benefit of being a bit more explicit, where React is a bit more magical
11:50	katox	dnolen: yes that's true
11:52	katox	dnolen: there is one "magical" thing in om though - when you specify value as a constant from app state, then an implicit handler sets the state for inputs anyway - so the component behaves like uncontrolled while one would expect the input value to never change
11:52	dnolen	katox: yes I'm aware, I'm kind of lukewarm about it - Om works how it works for now
12:05	katox	dnolen: one more thing that's a bit unclear to me - the om/join part of the app state passed to a component is meant to be updatable (via transact!), right?
12:06	dnolen	katox: known issue and om.core/join is marked EXPERIMENTAL ;) this actually requires a significant change and is slated for 0.3.1
12:07	dnolen	katox: you really should not use om.core/join at this time if you need synchronization or updates
12:08	dnolen	should get resolved in a couple of days once I have a satisfactory implementation strategy down
12:11	katox	dnolen: I didn't really use it so far - I used opts for passing down additional parts of app-state, it just seemed it's meant for a usecase like this
12:11	dnolen	katox: yes
12:12	dnolen	pushing things down opts works but that still suffers from synchronization issues
12:12	dnolen	and I think I prefer people not use opts for this (but I understand that people will as a workaround for now)
12:13	katox	dnolen: yes, it's quite an artificial boundary to pass some things in a cursor and bunch of other stuff in opts
12:14	dnolen	katox: working on it :)
12:14	srruby	How do I add clojure.contrib.seq to project.clj ?
12:14	katox	dnolen: I can move some of those into the state (like a comm channel) but I'm unusure if propagating that state into children is a good thing
12:14	llasram	srruby: Anything in clojure.contrib is ancient history
12:15	dnolen	katox: channels should pass to children as state in my opinion
12:15	dnolen	:init-state really
12:17	katox	dnolen: ok, right, I have it in the main component state anyway (so I'll just pass that deeper)
12:17	srruby	llasram: Thanks.
12:17	arrdem	srruby: but it may be useful...
12:29	dkinzer	S11001001: thx for the clarification. I think that must be it.
12:34	sdegutis	Anyone in here using a Thinkpad that they can recommend for serious Clojure development?
12:34	sdegutis	(i.e. serious programming)
12:36	arrdem	sdegutis: most of them are pretty good... I know technomancy uses a thinkbrick as his dev laptop.
12:37	arrdem	sdegutis: I'm a mechanical keyboard fiend so I just lug around an ultrabook and a massive USB keyboard :P
12:37	sdegutis	:)
12:37	technomancy	sdegutis: I can't recommend any thinkpads currently for sale, but if you go on ebay...
12:37	arcatan	i keep hearing that the old ThinkPads were great, but that they've jumped the shark since
12:38	technomancy	arcatan: everyone says that about the lenovo acquisition, which is pure BS
12:38	sdegutis	technomancy: Why can't you recommend current Thinkpads?
12:38	arrdem	arcatan: my perception is that IBM's thinkpads aren't so hot, but Lenovo still builds good bricks.
12:38	technomancy	sdegutis: sorry, to be more specific I can't recommend the X series
12:38	technomancy	I don't know anything about the larger ones
12:39	sdegutis	technomancy: Oh, I was looking into the T series.
12:39	technomancy	the current X series are all either low-res screens or no user-serviceable parts bullshit, which offends me deeply
12:39	sdegutis	I don't agree with the new "thinner/lighter is better" idea.
12:39	technomancy	dinc
12:39	technomancy	thinner is useless
12:39	technomancy	it just makes it look cool at the expense of actual functionality
12:40	sdegutis	Yup.
12:40	technomancy	I can strongly recommend the X200 since that was the last one before they went to low-res screens
12:40	dsrx	after using a first revision macbook for 5 years, I literally threw my macbook air across the room the first time i picked it up off my desk while moving
12:40	sdegutis	Related: anyone interested in a mid-2013 15" rMBP with 16gb memory and 512gb SSD?
12:40	dsrx	(it survived with a little ding on the front lip)
12:40	DerGuteMoritz	FWIW, x201(s) also has a high-res screen
12:41	DerGuteMoritz	at least my x201s is 1440x900
12:41	technomancy	though if I were buying a new kit today and not waiting around for bunnie's hacker laptop (http://makezine.com/magazine/building-an-open-source-laptop/) I would just get something with a nice screen and a rubbish keyboard and haul around my ergodox everywhere I go
12:41	technomancy	DerGuteMoritz: aha cool; I guess it was the x220 where it went downhill
12:42	DerGuteMoritz	technomancy: yep
12:42	technomancy	I can't stand the idea of buying something I can't open up to fix myself though
12:42	technomancy	all the super-light junk seems to be that way
12:42	DerGuteMoritz	indeed
12:42	katox	I'm on T520 and it's quite solid - I hate two things - nvidia drivers and unstable N iwlwifi driver on debian stable
12:43	technomancy	sdegutis: oh yeah, don't get anything that doesn't have an intel graphics chipset
12:43	technomancy	that's a common noob mistake =)
12:43	sdegutis	Why?
12:43	clojurebot	Why is why
12:43	sdegutis	clojurebot: disable that response
12:43	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
12:43	technomancy	they typically either use up a lot more juice or can't suspend properly
12:43	sdegutis	Ooh.
12:43	technomancy	or don't support rotation, or whatever
12:43	katox	technomancy: this one can sleep well, but the nvidia-settings is royal PITA
12:44	technomancy	even the dinkiest onboard intel chip in my 5-year-old thinkpad can drive a big old 28-inch external display
12:44	technomancy	clojurebot: forget Why \|is\| why
12:45	clojurebot	I forgot that Why is why
12:45	sdegutis	technomancy: Thanks :)
12:46	technomancy	heh, np
12:46	katox	technomancy: I'll ping you later this year or the next for a debian gear ntb advice ;)
12:47	katox	so far it seems it's worse and worse every year
12:47	technomancy	katox: I'm holding on to my ancient thinkpad for dear life
12:47	technomancy	the novena design I linked to above looks badass though
12:48	sdegutis	technomancy: But you haven't looked into the T series, how do you know it doesn't fit your requirements?
12:49	technomancy	sdegutis: well... I like something I can pick up with two fingers
12:49	technomancy	thin is useless; light is not
12:49	technomancy	however...
12:49	technomancy	since starting to use a mechanical keyboard I'm beginning to think that ship has sailed
12:50	technomancy	if my keyboard is already adding 0.9kg to my bag every time I head out it seems a bit silly to care about the additional weight of the X->T jump
12:50	sdegutis	:)
12:52	katox	the Tx20 had the last keyboard with the old design, Tx30 and Tx40 have "mac"-like one (far from good imo)
12:52	srruby	technomancy: I love my model m keyboard. Circa 1987
12:53	technomancy	katox: yeah, after going mechanical I have a hard time caring about that
12:53	technomancy	especially since the underlying switch design hasn't actually changed; if it was a flat one like the macbook I would definitely stay away
12:53	katox	technomancy: it's not just mechanical, the key layout is horrible too
12:54	sdegutis	katox: what's wrong with the new mac-like design? (I'm typing on an Apple aluminum full-size keyboard right now btw)
12:54	technomancy	sdegutis: the response is just rubbish; the keys only move a few mm
12:54	technomancy	it feels like typing on glass
12:54	sdegutis	technomancy: oh. But why is that not good?
12:55	dsrx	you could always get an old toshiba T1000 or something for a mechanical keyboard :)
12:55	arrdem	sdegutis: I like more travel on each keypress.
12:55	arrdem	sdegutis: it's a personal thing.
12:55	sdegutis	Oh.
12:55	arrdem	sdegutis: I also kinda like feeling when the key engages, and the pressure change leading up thereto.
12:55	technomancy	I don't like typing on glass
12:56	arrdem	technomancy: one day we will all have 20" reconfigurable touchscreens for keyboards..
12:56	technomancy	arrdem: hopefully after I retire
12:56	dsrx	beautiful http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_YIydOBZLqFs/TRDwa_v0WkI/AAAAAAAAAB8/PPYssOLGvfM/s1600/IMG_7456.JPG
12:56	technomancy	oooh ctrl in the right place, nice
12:58	katox	technomancy: that can be easily changed in bios on lenovos tough
12:58	TimMc	technomancy: Ever seen one of these? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_ThinkPad_Butterfly_keyboard
12:58	dsrx	katox: yeah, but you still have to look at the thing
12:59	technomancy	TimMc: I've seen that but never tried it for myself
12:59	katox	dsrx: I'm looking at the screen not the keyboard anyway
12:59	TimMc	One of my housemates has one. He's going to gut the laptop and put a Raspberry Pi in it.
12:59	technomancy	TimMc: it's a sweet idea though; I wish it had taken off
12:59	technomancy	maybe it could have postponed the tragedy of 16:9 aspect ratios
12:59	dsrx	katox: when you're typing maybe, but when it's sitting on your desk asleep... the caps lock will still offend
13:00	llasram	16:9 isn't so bad -- you get a normal screen + a thin IRC client on the side
13:01	gfredericks	is there a derogatory name for clojure yet? Can I suggest "cluggles"?
13:01	llasram	Clojture?
13:01	arrdem	gfredericks: most people just use "it isn't haskell"...
13:01	llasram	s,jt,tj,
13:02	technomancy	there's always Smug Lisp Weenie, but that's more general
13:03	llasram	Kludjure
13:03	dkinzer	I like Clojture.
13:09	alandipert	if anyone's interested, me and michaniskin talking hoplon at https://plus.google.com/u/0/b/114209127252642497527/events/cp92seg6o5bu0dh1ms0n07u6v58 (Q & A and discussion in #hoplon)
13:10	dsrx	arrdem: lol
13:27	ebaxt	Is this the correct way to drain a channel in core.async? https://www.refheap.com/28804
13:32	mdrogalis	bbloom: Insightful tweet chain.
13:33	bbloom	mdrogalis: if only there was some sensible way to read it as a tree or something
13:33	mdrogalis	bbloom: Yeah, conversation is really a graph sort of thing. Not linear.
13:33	mdrogalis	But anywho. Great stuff.
13:35	arrdem	obligitory "emacs can do that" : https://github.com/ppareit/graphviz-dot-mode
13:35	arrdem	now you just need a better twitter client :P
13:36	arrdem	s,need,need to buind,g
13:36	technomancy	or like... you know, a mail client
13:36	technomancy	tweet->imap bridge
13:36	bbloom	technomancy: get on that
13:36	technomancy	I'll add it to the seajure project ideas wiki
13:36	arrdem	I have 10Kdoge for a working implementation :P
13:38	bbloom	technomancy: seriously, if that doesn't already exist somewhere, it's totally a profitable business venture :-)
13:42	technomancy	yeah, when I hear the word IMAP, the first thing that comes to my mind is $$$ these days
13:43	dacc	haha
13:43	bbloom	technomancy: you heard the wrong words. the right words were "email" and "twitter" :-P
13:43	dacc	i'd like to bridge both twitter and email into irc, hrm
13:44	bbloom	dacc: as soon as you add irc, it's negative money :-)
13:44	arrdem	I just want a meta-messaging client which exposes Twitter, FB and IRC as a single IRC like message stream...
13:45	technomancy	arrdem: bitlbee actually does twitter
13:45	bbloom	arrdem: i think every sociable geek on the planet has had that idea, but it's basically impossible to make a general purpose enough tool that wouldn't have vim/emacs level learning curve or worse
13:45	arrdem	bbloom: haha... which is why I was thinking it'd make a perfect Emacs major mode :P
13:46	bbloom	arrdem: godspeed.
13:46	arrdem	bbloom: thanks. I'll need it...
13:47	S11001001	what are you going to add clojure-elisp, arrdem? :)
13:47	arrdem	S11001001: who said I was actually going to write elisp...
13:48	technomancy	do it as an nrepl op; that way everyone can join in the fun
13:48	arrdem	(inc technomancy)
13:48	lazybot	⇒ 95
13:48	scottj	the best thing about bitlbee+twitter is that it puts the tweets in most recent at bottom.
13:48	Bronsa	arrdem: I use twitter/gtalk over bitlbee
13:49	imanc	mega newb here - I've created a compojure project via lein, added http-kit and compojure dependencies, and I have some code in my app's core.clj. But I'm trying to figure out how to run/start the webserver. Articles suggest lein ring server, but ring is not an available command. Any ideas what I need to do?
13:50	Bronsa	arrdem: I'm pretty sure it's possible to have the facebook chat over bitlbee too
13:50	arrdem	Bronsa: you still use gtalk? IRC and Twitter have basically replaced it for me except for the idiots who only use FB...
13:50	technomancy	I used to use gtalk till they killed the federation
13:52	technomancy	that sounds like a weird star trek spoiler, but it's not
13:52	arrdem	technomancy: it's a pretty solid FTL spoiler...
13:52	insamniac	I was trying to think of a Romulan joke
13:53	technomancy	though... they're still making those movies, so it could still happen
13:55	cark	what are you all using for testing async stuff in clojurescript ? (callbacks or core.async)
13:56	cark	i couldn't find anything
14:15	mikerod	I just got burned by the fact that clojure.core/hash and clojure.core/= do not behave the same as .hashCode and .equals for a Clojure record type... tricky
14:21	sdegutis	Officially listing my rMBP on craigslist, woo.
14:27	dobry-den	It's taking me longer than I'd like to make ring's default multi-part upload fail if user tries uploading more than X bytes. Is there already a way to do this?
14:35	gfredericks	,(defrecord Sparky [a])
14:35	clojurebot	sandbox.Sparky
14:36	gfredericks	,(hash (Sparky. 42))
14:36	clojurebot	-503760783
14:36	gfredericks	,(.hashCode (Sparky. 42))
14:36	clojurebot	1013910531
14:36	AeroNotix	,(what-is-love?)
14:36	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: what-is-love? in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
14:40	dkinzer	lol
14:49	yedi	holy shit lighttable is amazing, dunno why i waited this long to try it out
14:50	dacc	i think it's written in clojurescript on top of webkit or something, too
14:50	cark	dacc: exactly so
14:53	dacc	pretty impressive
15:08	dnolen	Bronsa: ping
15:08	Bronsa	dnolen: pong
15:09	dnolen	Bronsa: how difficult would be it to have a comments preserving mode in tools.reader?
15:11	escherize	what's a quick way to look up a row in a longish csv file?
15:11	Bronsa	dnolen: probably impossible I'm afraid. we would need to have after/before every comment an IObj to store them as metadata, that is not the case
15:12	seangrove	dnolen: SF CLJS had a great turnout, and very good talks. Pretty surprised by how well the first meetup turned out
15:12	Bronsa	dnolen: it could be possible to keep them in a separate table indexed by starting line+starting column though
15:12	seangrove	dnolen: Next month is on React/Om
15:12	dnolen	seangrove: that awesome!
15:12	dnolen	seangrove: that the meetup went well
15:12	seangrove	Yeah, about ~30 people showed up, two lightning talks, one main talk
15:13	seangrove	Good Q&A, etc.
15:13	dnolen	Bronsa: interesting
15:14	Bronsa	dnolen: why would you need that?
15:15	arrdem	Bronsa: automated refactoring tools.
15:15	Bronsa	that's probably a better job for a parser than for a reader
15:16	arrdem	agreed. The parser could be augmented to store this data, but then the reader would have to be changed to ignore comment groups.
15:17	AeroNotix	Has anyone got an example of using gen/hash-map in simple-check?
15:19	Bronsa	I've thought about refactoring tools.reader to be two-phases, first the parser that emits an AST (which could keep comments) and a pass over that to emit the runtime values
15:19	reiddraper	AeroNotix: (gen/sample (gen/hash-map :name gen/string-ascii :age gen/s-pos-int))
15:19	arrdem	that's exactly what you'd want to do in order to support this..
15:19	arrdem	tools.parser and tools.reader
15:20	Bronsa	yeah.
15:20	arrdem	I gotta start somewhere... get a jira opened and I'll start refactoring :P
15:22	Bronsa	If I recall correctly somebody had a modified version of tools.reader that behaved only as a parser
15:23	oskarkv	My user namespace has required a function I want to have access to in other namespaces, just for the sake of convenient editing. Can I get at the function without requiring user from other namespaces?
15:24	arrdem	oskarkv: you can access it as (user/my-fn)
15:24	arrdem	oskarkv: or (#'user/my-fn)
15:25	arrdem	Bronsa: I expect you'd want to do better than the naive instaparse grammer :P
15:26	Bronsa	arrdem: let me finish fixing this bug in tools.emitter.jvm and then I'll open a jira
15:26	arrdem	Bronsa: k.
15:26	mmitchell	I wish :require would act like :import so that you could easily alias namespaces like: (ns foo (:require [db.adapters mysql sqlite redis])) etc., instead I have to use :as like [db.adapters [mysql :as mysql] [sqlite :as sqlite] ...]
15:27	Bronsa	I was probably thinking of https://github.com/kovasb/codn
15:27	oskarkv	arrdem ah, I had to use the original namespace, not user. Thanks.
15:28	dobry-den	escherize: sequential scan?
15:29	aaronj1335	so i've defined a :test key in one of my functions' metadata. is there a test runner for these? clojure.test/run-{all-}tests doesn't seem to notice it
15:29	dobry-den	Question: I throw an exception in middleware (Compojure app) when a user's file upload is too large. What should I do with the exception so that the route endpoint can handle it?
15:38	grzm	anyone know examples of xhr with om/react out in the wild?
15:40	escherize	https://www.refheap.com/28863
15:40	escherize	having some trouble retrieving lines that match 'word'
15:42	grzm	escherize: any reason not to use https://github.com/clojure/data.csv and operate over the fields directly?
15:43	dobry-den	escherize: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/clojure/jGoLKevw1LI/0bmtETp6D1kJ
15:43	Raynes	Ugh, don't use that. Use data.csv or dsantiago's lib.
15:44	escherize	thanks you guys
15:44	dobry-den	what's wrong with that?
15:45	Raynes	There are useful, stable libraries with tests and such that do a very good job at parsing csv files.
15:46	Raynes	Replacing those with a single function copied from someone else's code is rarely a good choice over solid, stable libraries.
15:49	dobry-den	sure. although i'd encourage escherize to get a line-seq idiom down for quick and dirty stuff
15:49	Raynes	Agreed.
15:49	escherize	noted
15:50	escherize	thanks :]
15:50	Raynes	If you're reading files, you almost certainly want to lazily iterate over lines.
15:50	dobry-den	clojure makes it incredibly brainless to parse large files. as long as you can consume some sort of lazy sequence. most of its core lib returns lazy seqs so they compose.
15:50	Raynes	escherize: The difference being that with line-seq you get a lazy sequence that reads lines from the file as needed.
15:51	Raynes	escherize: With your version, you're reading the entire file into memory as a string and then splitting it into a collection.
15:51	Raynes	Both of the CSV libraries handle the lazy parsing for you.
16:07	sdegutis	technomancy: which thinkpad do you have? thinking of just going on ebay and getting a peer-approved model
16:08	dacc	sdegutis: switching away from mac?
16:08	technomancy	sdegutis: I have the X200s. the s signifies low-voltage, which is great IMO; I get 6-7h from a 9-cell battery
16:08	sdegutis	dacc: seriously considering it. just tried windows 8 and im in love.
16:08	technomancy	sdegutis: but the main thing is just to avoid the low-res screen
16:08	technomancy	so nothing newer than the X201
16:09	technomancy	unless you are OK with non-user-serviceable parts, which are an anathema to everything that is decent
16:09	technomancy	(If you want a T series then I have no idea; you could probably get a good screen without getting something so old maybe?)
16:10	sdegutis	technomancy: heh, thats one of the reasons i want to get rid of my rMBP... once the battery life is dead, theres no replacing it
16:10	sdegutis	technomancy: old is good, it means cheaper
16:10	technomancy	sdegutis: you might need to get a new battery, but those arnet' bad
16:10	technomancy	sdegutis: also be sure to check the brightness, not just the resolution
16:10	sdegutis	technomancy: on an x200s?
16:11	technomancy	I wouldn't go under 250 nits
16:11	sdegutis	oh, i didnt know that could vary by specific models
16:11	technomancy	sdegutis: any model is offered with 3 or 4 different screen options
16:11	sdegutis	ah
16:11	technomancy	yeah, it's kinda confusing
16:11	sdegutis	so kinda like Apple's "customize" feature.
16:12	escherize	thanks for the csv help, i got the lookup down to 8.5 ms!
16:12	sdegutis	lem.
16:12	technomancy	thinkwiki.org is your friend
16:12	sdegutis	thx
16:12	technomancy	sure
16:14	wink	without reading the backlog: I love my x230s (if you can stand the new chicklet keyboard, I can)
16:14	wink	queue technomancy hatin on me :D
16:15	gfredericks	without reading the backlog: what do you guys think about climate change
16:15	technomancy	yeah, my advice is optimized for what I do: being out at coffee shops every other day and only being plugged into a screen less than half the time
16:15	arrdem	gfredericks: the door is that way sir
16:15	technomancy	if you are usually working out of an office, you probably don't care as much about weight or brightness or internal resolution
16:16	deadghost	why would someone use a laptop at an office
16:16	cespare	slow is a fn that takes a long time and produces the value 3. How can I make something like this work: (def inf (cons (slow) (lazy-seq (inf)))) except I want slow to be re-evaluated each time a new seq item is realized
16:16	gfredericks	so you can carry it to meetings
16:16	technomancy	deadghost: I don't know; apparently it's a thing
16:16	technomancy	gfredericks: not having a laptop at meetings is pretty great though
16:16	llasram	gfredericks: Next time you do an open mic night, let us know
16:17	hiredman	cespare: repeatedly
16:17	technomancy	gfredericks: if global warming is true why is it cold lol
16:18	cespare	hiredman: thanks
16:19	sdegutis	arrdem: lol
16:19	llasram	technomancy: We are having our semi-decade-ly snow in Atlanta, and I have heard that joke made too seriously too many times today
16:20	technomancy	assuming you linked them to http://ifglobalwarmingisrealthenwhyisitcold.blogspot.com/
16:20	gfredericks	technomancy: haha lol scientists are bias
16:21	llasram	technomancy: I will in the future!
16:21	gfredericks	technomancy: that fourth one is from the onion
16:23	TimMc	I liked that recent XKCD.
16:23	dkinzer	it's called global climate change... and it's more complicated than that.
16:23	sdegutis	I miss the old style XKCDs.
16:24	cark	that blog is frightening
16:24	TimMc	dkinzer: (To be clear, I don't think anyone so far in this conversation is a climate change denier.)
16:25	arrdem	to deny climate change absolutely is to be a fool, to dispute the human involvement is more tennable.
16:25	technomancy	dkinzer: you can tell it's not serious because there's a "lol" on the end =)
16:26	dkinzer	technomancy: :)
16:26	llasram	arrdem: Is that what you're actually working on?
16:26	gfredericks	technomancy: this sentence is serious lol
16:26	TimMc	lol lol
16:26	technomancy	gfredericks: nice try
16:26	arrdem	lel?
16:27	gfredericks	aw shucks
16:31	cespare	How do I make the repl not print the output value? Apparently 'clojure repl don't print' isn't good enough for google
16:32	stuartsierra	(do … something … nil)
16:33	cespare	sure, that works.
16:33	technomancy	cespare: you can start a sub-repl with clojure.main/repl that overrides the print function too
16:33	technomancy	kind of convoluted though
16:34	technomancy	or just (def _ (...)) would hide it too
16:35	cespare	hrm (do (expensive-thing) nil) isn't running expensive thing. Nor is (doall ... nil)
16:36	cark	cespare: hum are you sure about that ?
16:37	cespare	more concretely, (doall (take 5000000000 (repeatedly (fn [] 3))) nil) returns instantly.
16:37	cespare	i must be doing something dumb.
16:38	cark	doall with 2 parameters : the first one is n
16:38	sdegutis	,3
16:38	clojurebot	3
16:38	cark	wrap your doall in (do (doall ...) nil)
16:39	technomancy	cespare: no, it's clojure being dumb about undefined inputs
16:39	technomancy	well, both are at fault I guess
16:39	hyPiRion	cespare: I guess you'd like to do (dorun (take 5000000000 (repeatedly (fn [] 3)))) instead
16:39	cespare	oh yeah, doall is different.
16:39	cespare	dorun, that's better.
16:39	cespare	thanks hyPiRion
16:40	hyPiRion	Well, doall retains all in memory, so if you're doing memory profiling, take a note of that
16:42	cespare	what I'm really trying to do is figure out why a sample of a large clojure codebase indicates it's spending a lot of cpu time in lazyseq.sval.
16:43	cespare	I was trying to repro by profiling doing various convoluted things with lazy seqs.
17:35	daGrevis	I'm sorry, but why this doesn't work? http://vpaste.net/wNG9E
17:38	oskarkv	daGrevis what is it supposed to do?
17:38	daGrevis	oskarkv, string/substring?
17:38	daGrevis	check if 13 is in 2013
17:39	llasram	daGrevis: number->digits returns a vector, which can be treated as a function of index->value. `some` expects its first argument to be a function, and calls that function on each member of the second-argument collection
17:39	oskarkv	the digits are strings, not numbers
17:39	brehaut	daGrevis: prefer hyphens to underscores in names (minor style point)
17:39	oskarkv	or, maybe characters
17:41	daGrevis	thanks all
17:41	daGrevis	brehaut, i though hyphens were the correct way
17:41	daGrevis	ohh, i have underscore there. sorry
17:42	llasram	~guards
17:42	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
17:44	daGrevis	why doesn't some work on lists?
17:45	hyPiRion	it does...?
17:45	hyPiRion	,(some even? (list 1 2 3))
17:45	clojurebot	true
17:45	cark	,(some odd? '(1 2 3))
17:45	clojurebot	true
17:45	daGrevis	yes, my bad
17:45	daGrevis	1st arg is a fn
17:45	daGrevis	and vec somehow acts as fn
17:45	brehaut	vectors are functions of the indexes
17:46	oskarkv	yes, somehow ;)
17:46	ivan	,([1 2] 0)
17:46	clojurebot	1
17:46	brehaut	likewise maps are functions of their keys
17:46	rhg135	interfaces
17:46	clojurebot	No entiendo
17:46	brehaut	(doc ifn?)
17:46	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns true if x implements IFn. Note that many data structures (e.g. sets and maps) implement IFn"
17:46	rhg135	clojurebot, you disapoint me
17:46	clojurebot	No entiendo
17:46	oskarkv	(map ifn? '() [] {})
17:46	oskarkv	,(map ifn? '() [] {})
17:46	clojurebot	()
17:46	oskarkv	ops
17:47	oskarkv	that's not right
17:47	oskarkv	,(map ifn? ['() [] {}])
17:47	clojurebot	(false true true)
17:47	brehaut	you zipped them togehter
17:47	oskarkv	yeah :p
17:47	brehaut	and you missed sets ;)
17:47	oskarkv	yeah
17:47	brehaut	(functions of their contents)
17:47	oskarkv	im failing
17:47	daGrevis	this is interesting
17:48	brehaut	daGrevis: and keywords are functions of maps
17:48	brehaut	,(:foo {:foo 1})
17:48	clojurebot	1
17:48	brehaut	,({:foo 1} :foo)
17:48	clojurebot	1
17:48	hyPiRion	and symbols, too
17:48	brehaut	yeah
17:48	hyPiRion	,('foo {'foo :wat})
17:48	clojurebot	:wat
17:48	oskarkv	that i did not know :P
17:48	rhg135	ooh
17:48	rhg135	nor i
17:49	hyPiRion	even ##('foo #{'foo}) works, I think
17:49	lazybot	⇒ foo
17:49	brehaut	you can also destructure :syms and :strs as well as keys :)
17:49	rhg135	makes sense tho
17:49	rhg135	keywords being subsets of symbols
17:49	hyPiRion	well, it's a bit confusing that symbols are ifns at times. Or rather, that they don't throw exceptions when used erronously
17:50	hyPiRion	,('foo 'baz 'bar)
17:50	clojurebot	bar
17:50	rhg135	?
17:50	brehaut	,(let [{:syms [foo] :keys [baz] :strs [bar]} {'foo 1 "bar" 2 :baz 3}] [foo bar baz])
17:50	llasram	,('+ 1 1)
17:50	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
17:50	clojurebot	1
17:50	llasram	^ that's my favorite :-D
17:50	rhg135	if you do that i'll find you :P
17:51	llasram	Never in anger. Just to confuse the kids
17:51	rhg135	that's almost evil
17:52	brehaut	quickly, to the #swearjure!
17:52	rhg135	and it is if you don't see the '
17:52	arrdem	brehaut: .... that is evil. but nice.
17:52	brehaut	arrdem: its mostly for writing macros i think?
17:52	oskarkv	what's the actual definition of the symbol function?
17:52	brehaut	,(source symbol)
17:52	clojurebot	Source not found\n
17:52	oskarkv	i mean, the one that symbols implement
17:53	rhg135	clojurebot, i is disapoint
17:53	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
17:53	rhg135	wut
17:53	llasram	clojurebot: i?
17:53	hyPiRion	clojurebot: i?
17:53	clojurebot	i is disapoint
17:53	clojurebot	i is disapoint
17:53	llasram	niiiiice
17:53	hyPiRion	zing
17:53	llasram	clojurebot learned how to zing itself!
17:53	AeroNotix	not sure why people are jizzing about brehaut's snippet
17:53	ivan	,(let [{:syms [foo] :keys [foo] :strs [foo]} {'foo 1 "foo" 2 :foo 3}] [foo foo foo])
17:53	clojurebot	[1 1 1]
17:53	rhg135	smart bot
17:54	brehaut	AeroNotix: its just an obvious feature a lot of people dont seem to know about
17:54	rhg135	AeroNotix, no llasram's
17:54	clojurebot	I don't understand.
17:54	AeroNotix	llasram's warrants further investigation
17:54	rhg135	clojurebot, i?
17:54	clojurebot	i is disapoint
17:54	AeroNotix	(for me at least)
17:55	rhg135	i mean it's simple just weird
17:55	rhg135	unexpected at least
17:55	AeroNotix	Quite
17:56	AeroNotix	can someone explain that?
17:57	rhg135	symbols are callable
17:59	AeroNotix	ohh ok
18:00	AeroNotix	because I tried in common lisp and obviously it didn't work
18:00	rhg135	hmm ##('foo 'bar)
18:00	lazybot	⇒ nil
18:00	llasram	AeroNotix: Weird -- I just tried it in ANS Forth and it didn't work either ;-)
18:00	rhg135	##(source symbol)
18:00	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: source in this context
18:01	oskarkv	,('foo 'whatever :not-found)
18:01	clojurebot	:not-found
18:01	rhg135	ic
18:01	rhg135	oh
18:01	rhg135	i understand now
18:02	rhg135	,('+ 2 1)
18:02	clojurebot	1
18:06	AeroNotix	llasram: at least I wasn't being facetious for no reason
18:07	llasram	AeroNotix: That's fair
18:07	llasram	No offense intended -- apologies
18:08	AeroNotix	llasram: no worries, internet and all that.
18:18	S11001001	hg log -l3
18:18	S11001001	hey y'all, I use mercurial
18:18	AeroNotix	S11001001: AND fail at irc
18:18	S11001001	I type that as instinctively as ls now
18:19	arrdem	ls
18:19	lazybot	boot home lib lost+found mnt opt sbin swap tmp usr
18:19	arrdem	ls boot
18:19	lazybot	bin dev lost+found opt sbin swap usr
18:19	arrdem	wut
18:19	arrdem	cd /boot/dev
18:19	arrdem	ls
18:19	lazybot	data etc lib lost+found media mnt opt root sbin selinux src srv tmp var
18:19	arrdem	(inc lazybot)
18:19	lazybot	⇒ 20
18:19	arrdem	cat /etc/fstab
18:19	arrdem	dang
18:20	S11001001	AeroNotix: wrong-terminal input is the traditional way to tell what IRC client someone uses. Like you can tell an ERC user because they'll say "xb" at least once
18:20	S11001001	:)
18:20	xnil	window close
18:21	technomancy	"Computer, send an IRC message to the #clojure channel on freenode."
18:21	cark	i had to try C-x b to remember it's the command i use every 2 seconds .... that is sad
18:21	arrdem	oh. right. the buffer change command. yeah that's long muscle memory...
18:21	AeroNotix	weechat here
18:22	arrdem	C-x o ftw...
18:26	dsrx	,('* 1 7)
18:26	clojurebot	7
18:28	brehaut	,('foobarzen 1 7)
18:28	clojurebot	7
18:28	noonian	hmm?
18:28	brehaut	it doesnt have to be a symbol that would otherwise resolve, thats just why its potentially confusing
18:28	rhg135	,('this 'is 'cool)
18:28	clojurebot	cool
18:28	noonian	,('why?)
18:28	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: Symbol>
18:28	noonian	('foo 4)
18:29	noonian	,('foo 4)
18:29	clojurebot	nil
18:29	brehaut	.(ifn? 'foo)
18:29	mysamdog	,('why 'not?)
18:29	clojurebot	nil
18:29	noonian	,(ifn? 'foo)
18:29	clojurebot	true
18:29	brehaut	thanks
18:29	brehaut	args are [associtive default] like get
18:29	rhg135	('ic 1 :nope)
18:29	noonian	,('foo {'foo 7})
18:29	clojurebot	7
18:29	rhg135	oh
18:30	dsrx	,(get 1 5)
18:30	clojurebot	nil
18:30	noonian	,('foob {'foo 7} "ahh")
18:30	clojurebot	"ahh"
18:30	brehaut	get needs a key too; the symbol is its own key
18:31	noonian	yeah, so symbols work like keywords and it's just strings and aggregate values as keys you've got to watch out for :P
18:31	noonian	i want to use symbols as map keys now just because
18:31	dsrx	,(doc get)
18:31	clojurebot	"([map key] [map key not-found]); Returns the value mapped to key, not-found or nil if key not present."
18:32	brehaut	yoiu also cant use numbers, booleans, regexps etc as keys and expect that trick to work
18:34	rhg135	,(1 {1 2})
18:34	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
18:35	rhg135	i presume you meant another trick
18:35	rhg135	ohhhhhhhhhhh
18:35	rhg135	misread that lol
18:50	mmitchell	Is there a helper/extension lib for clojure.core.test, I want some of the convenience of midje but not the whole thing.
18:52	mmitchell	Or hmm... is anyone using core.logic/core.match in their clojure.core tests?
18:54	TimMc	What sort of trouble can I get into by using non-ASCII characters in function names?
18:55	hyPiRion	mmitchell: I am generally using simple-check these days. Not sure if it fits your use case, but it has been very pleasant for the work I've done
18:55	guns	TimMc: I haven't run into any trouble in my private code
18:55	technomancy	TimMc: as long as they're at the end and the ascii part is unambiguous on its own, fair game =D
18:55	mmitchell	hyPiRion: cool i'll check it out, thanks
18:55	TimMc	technomancy: Nice.
18:55	hyPiRion	TimMc: works fine, but GH renders it as an error =/ https://github.com/hyPiRion/snigilbot/blob/master/src/snigil/players/minimax.clj#L71-L93
18:55	TimMc	I have a function called naïve-foo
18:56	guns	Is there a good way to determine if a class was created by deftype? All I can see is to munge the package name and search for a matching namespace
18:57	guns	deftype essentially does the reverse and it doesn't seem to set any metadata
18:58	Bronsa	guns: deftypes implement clojure.lang.IType
18:59	guns	Bronsa: I see. thank you, that may be good enough
18:59	guns	btw, is tools.analyzer considered stable for library use yet?
19:00	`cbp	Of course emacs is using 800mb of ram with only erc
19:01	Bronsa	guns: days close to a stable release
19:01	rhg135	`cbp, reminds me of the jvm
19:01	guns	Bronsa: awesome! looking forward to it
19:03	rhg135	forget the startup time, dat ram usage
19:03	llasram	`cbp: Eight-hundred Megabytes And Constantly Swapping? -- just keep adding `0`s and the joke never gets old!
19:04	`cbp	:(
19:04	llasram	Huh, my emacs also has 800mb virtual. I really haven't noticed much regarding RAM since switching to a 32GB workstation
19:04	technomancy	do you have a limit on how many lines to keep per channel?
19:04	`cbp	I wish I knew how to upgrade this mbp to 8 gb then silly distnoted and emacs can go up to 2 gb for all i care
19:05	ivan	does virtual matter?
19:05	`cbp	I only had clojure and it had 4k lines
19:05	technomancy	I cap mine at 500
19:06	technomancy	I do that more to keep me from wasting time than for ram reasons though
19:06	rhg135	lol
19:11	AeroNotix	technomancy: fwiw, I use the same instance of weechat for months. Rarely steps over a few hundred megabytes.
19:12	devn	i had a weird issue with weechat-curses
19:13	devn	if i closed the window terminal it was running in, it would leak memory
19:14	technomancy	yeah, mine hasn't broke 200mb virtual yet
19:15	TimMc	technomancy: Oh, I guess the JVM is cool with it: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jvms/se7/html/jvms-4.html#jvms-4.2.1
19:15	rhg135	what is this madness??? im syncing from github at 90kbps
19:16	devn	simplest way to check if something is transient?
19:16	devn	there's no transient? predicate, right?
19:16	rhg135	transient??
19:16	lazybot	rhg135: Definitely not.
19:16	devn	,transient?
19:16	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: transient? in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
19:17	rhg135	,(find-doc "transient")
19:17	clojurebot	-------------------------\nclojure.core/assoc!\n([coll key val] [coll key val & kvs])\n When applied to a transient map, adds mapping of key(s) to\n val(s). When applied to a transient vector, sets the val at index.\n Note - index must be <= (count vector). Returns coll.\n-------------------------\nclojure.core/conj!\n([coll x])\n Adds x to the transient collection, and return coll. The 'addit...
19:17	hyPiRion	devn: (instance? clojure.lang.ITransientCollection my-transient)
19:17	devn	hyPiRion: that's what i was looking for. thanks.
19:21	z_key	ff
19:21	z_key	whoas, my bad
19:21	z_key	I have a question regarding a problem I came across on 4 clojure
19:22	z_key	#19: implement 'last'
19:22	z_key	my solution that works in the REPL is:
19:22	z_key	(defn lst [coll] (if (empty? (rest coll)) coll (recur (rest coll)))))
19:22	rhg135	(comp first reverse)
19:23	technomancy	rhg135: show, don't tell =P
19:23	rhg135	oops
19:24	z_key	So, my lst func yields (5), or ("A"), with parens. The answers are 5, A. (5) != 5. Can someone enlighten me?
19:25	rhg135	well call first on that
19:25	rhg135	also empty? isn't very idiomatic
19:26	rhg135	i've mostly seen seq
19:26	z_key	lopng-time coder, first-time clojurer.
19:26	technomancy	eh
19:26	technomancy	I support the use of empty?
19:26	rhg135	or in this case next would work
19:26	z_key	yes...
19:27	z_key	what is the difference between 5 and (5)? List context versus "primitive"?
19:27	technomancy	why use jargon when there's a perfectly fine English word
19:27	rhg135	technomancy, cool, but i don't see how it's better than seq
19:27	`cbp	z_key: the parens indicate a list
19:28	rhg135	ah
19:28	`cbp	z_key: 5 is an item inside that list
19:28	z_key	shouldn't '(5) = 5, then?
19:28	rhg135	znope
19:28	rhg135	erm
19:28	rhg135	z_key,
19:28	`cbp	z_key: why would that be true?
19:29	`cbp	z_key: you are comparing a list to a number there
19:29	z_key	still gettin' my head around the basics
19:29	rhg135	a list should never equal a number
19:29	z_key	how do I change the list context?
19:29	z_key	remove, not change
19:29	`cbp	z_key: You can get the first element of the list with the function `first`
19:29	rhg135	first
19:30	z_key	So my function, recursively destroys the list until there's one (last) element left
19:31	z_key	how do I "remove the parens" and make 5=5?
19:32	gfredericks	z_key: so you want the first element in the list?
19:33	z_key	No, but I just understood what `cbp and rgh135 meant. That's how I recast (5) to the "literal context"(?) 5
19:33	technomancy	recast?
19:33	z_key	(= (first (5) 5)
19:33	z_key	)
19:34	z_key	right?
19:34	z_key	wait
19:34	z_key	(= (first (5)) 5)
19:34	`cbp	z_key: you are recursing through a linked list until there's only one element left. When there's only one element left you want to pull it out of the list
19:34	noonian	yep
19:34	technomancy	~tias
19:34	noonian	,(first (list 5))
19:34	clojurebot	tias is try it and see
19:34	clojurebot	5
19:34	z_key	exactly
19:35	noonian	,(source last)
19:35	clojurebot	Source not found\n
19:35	noonian	grumple
19:36	rhg135	just return (first coll) instead
19:36	z_key	bam. perfect
19:36	rhg135	you are returning the seq when you want a value
19:37	rhg135	weel a seq is a value just not THE value lol
19:37	z_key	;)
19:38	z_key	gotta run, i made significant progress with your all's help. thx
19:38	rhg135	np
19:38	z_key	... it's the small things. =)
19:39	rhg135	it truly is
20:32	scape_	when I run prn from cider-jack-in in emacs, I don't know what buffer if any is getting it. when run from cider connected to an instance of lein repl, I see the result in lein. what can I do to fix this
20:33	coventry	CLJS question: Are there any circumstances in which swap!ing into an om state atom would not trigger a refresh? This is with om 0.1.4.
20:33	scape_	let me rephrase that, if I run cider-jack-in on a file in emacs, if there is a call for prn I never see the result
20:36	technomancy	scape_: something is messing up out when prn is run
20:37	scape_	hmm, ok I'll look around, thx
20:37	dsrx	scape_: check nrepl-server xxxxx buffer too
20:38	scape_	I only have a cider repl buffer, it's empty unless I manually input things to it
20:55	mysamdog	I have what is probably a really stupid question, but here goes.
20:56	mysamdog	I have a vector of an arbitrary size that contains hashmaps.
20:56	mysamdog	I want to be able to go through the hashmaps and pick out the values that correspond with :TITLE
20:56	mysamdog	Would I just use map?
20:57	mysamdog	Oh
20:57	mysamdog	I think I figured it out
20:58	mysamdog	I would do (map (get vector :TITLE))
20:58	cark	(map :title my-vector)
20:59	mysamdog	Yep, that's it
21:00	mysamdog	I was doing (map vector :title) before and couldn't figure out why it wasn't working
21:00	cark	=)
21:00	dkinzer	,(doc map)
21:00	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f c1 c2] [f c1 c2 c3] [f c1 c2 c3 & ...]); Returns a lazy sequence consisting of the result of applying f to the set of first items of each coll, followed by applying f to the set of second items in each coll, until any one of the colls is exhausted. Any remaining items in other colls are ignored. Function f should accept number-of-colls arguments."
21:01	xnil	so that's why :kw can be used as a function
21:01	xnil	neat
21:06	darthdeus	hey guys, i have a question about clojure and emacs ... i stumbled upon this tutorial ... http://clojure.jr0cket.co.uk/perfect-environment/3---leiningen-build-tool and it seems to mention swank-clojure, but swank itself recommends using nrepl ... and i also found cider, which seems to be much easier to get working ... what do you guys recommend?
21:07	darthdeus	and is there a better or more up to date guide for clojure & emacs? :)
21:08	technomancy	darthdeus: cider is just the new name for nrepl.el
21:08	darthdeus	oh okay
21:17	darthdeus	this is probably a noob question, but if i'm already "jacked in" and i added something to the dependencies, do i have to kill the buffer running the cider connection, or is there a way to reload it? i cant seem to find it in the readme
21:20	dsrx	darthdeus: you can run M-x cider-restart, which will restart the nrepl process and start it again in that project
21:34	llasram	darthdeus: There's also the `alembic` library which allows you to add dependencies to a running REPL JVM
21:35	scape_	alembic is nice
22:10	frozenlock	Is there a repl in Lighttable? I know I can evaluate code from a file, but I'd like something like a command line environment.
22:11	xnil	i think it's ctrl+space, then type "insta"
22:11	xnil	it should show up on the right side
22:19	frozenlock	xnil: the instalrepl thing? I don't think that's what I need. I want to connect to my browser like I would with nrepl.el or inferior-lisp :-/
22:23	cark	frozenlock: i think the idea is that the instarepl is the same thing, only but you have the history directly available in your "file"
22:24	cark	frozenlock: maybe you shoudl try one of the tutorials from dnolen, you'll see it's quite the same thing
22:24	frozenlock	Yup, I tried one.
22:24	cark	oh ok
22:24	frozenlock	But there's some difference. For example, if I have a list of 10 things, in a repl I'm able to print them all.
22:25	frozenlock	In LT, it will truncate after 2-3 items
22:25	cark	mhh, you may print to the console
22:26	frozenlock	Perhaps I'm doing it wrong... say I have "my-variable", I usually just do ctrl-enter to check it. Is there another way?
22:27	cark	i'm not used to lightable, more of an emacs user personally
22:27	cark	i'll check it out though because i distincly remember there is a console
22:30	cark	frozenlock: you can toggle the console from the ctrl-space menu
22:31	cark	then (print (+ 1 2)) will show your output.... not sure how this interacts with clojurescript though
22:32	frozenlock	It doesn't :-/
22:32	frozenlock	I'll browse the plugins, surely I'm not the only one in need of a repl :-p
22:33	cark	i think you need to start a clojurescript repl then connect to a browser window, then use js/console.log
22:33	cark	or set print-fn and be done with it =)
22:35	frozenlock	Nasty :-p
22:37	cark	i have a crazy setup where i save my file -> it compiles -> my node-webkit reloads automatically the page -> it prints whatever i tell it to print in the console... that introduces a delay of maybe half a second, but i have my poor man's instarepl in emacs that way
22:38	cark	and no need to fiddle with a web server, just do pure clojurescript developement
22:38	cark	this also bypasses the security restrictions when navigating to a file instead of an url
22:47	devn	frozenlock: try clicking the truncated output thing
22:47	devn	it should expand to the full output
22:47	frozenlock	devn: It does, but I don't want to take the mouse :-p
22:47	devn	haha, well you didn't say that!
22:48	frozenlock	I want my cozy emacs environment, but in LT :-)
22:48	devn	frozenlock: see if you can find what sets the print-length
22:48	devn	then, you know, just set it
22:48	cark	i tried it, but really couldn't make the paredit plugin work like i want
22:48	devn	that's every paredit i've used outside of emacs
22:49	cark	=(
22:49	cark	that's the one thing that would make me really try to switch
22:49	devn	tpope has been making the vim world a better place by fixing up paredit for vim
22:50	frozenlock	And now I need ielm in LT!
22:50	cark	ielm ?
22:50	frozenlock	m-x ielm
22:50	devn	idk, i use light table for some development, mostly when im prototyping
22:50	devn	then i write it foreal in emacs
22:51	devn	like, working on a macro in light table is pretty cool
22:51	devn	you can see it as it takes shape without the extra eval! eval! eval! macroexpand-1! macroexpand macroexpand-all eval! write! eval! and so on
22:51	devn	in lighttable you just edit, and watch
22:51	frozenlock	Oh, that's neat.
22:52	cark	ah sounds nice
22:52	devn	(defmacro foo ...) (foo ...)
22:52	devn	then as you change foo, you see the call to foo change
22:52	cark	tho i on't write much macros, and when i do they're thin wrappers around functions
22:52	devn	speaking of macros, i made something really stupid last night, just so i'd have dibs on the macro name
22:53	devn	https://github.com/devn/defjam
22:53	devn	Note that it's not functional, is completely stupid, and has no real purpose at the moment.
22:54	devn	But I was thinking that it'd be fun to play madlibs with code, and kind of play with different names, to see how it all reads
22:54	bbloom	devn: does it define new types of jam? i like rasberry
22:54	devn	bbloom: that'll be the first feature i write with it
22:55	devn	(defjam raspberry [toasts] (apply :raspberry-jam [:wheat :white]))
22:57	devn	(defjam raspberry [toasts] (apply :raspberry-jam (generate/toast 5 :burn-factor 1/2)))
22:57	devn	that's a bit better
22:57	devn	(partition-all 2 buttered-toast)
22:58	devn	(with butter-knife (partition-all 2 buttered-toast))
22:58	devn	fun times.
22:58	bbloom	(inc devn)
22:58	lazybot	⇒ 13
23:01	devn	bbloom: it's fun to write fake stuff like that
23:01	devn	(defjam raspberry [toasts] (apply :raspberry-jam (into toaster-oven (generate/bread 5 :type :wheat :burn-factor 1/2))))
23:02	dsrx	devn: still waiting for defleppard macro
23:02	devn	omg yes!
23:02	bbloom	dsrx: we've already got one-arm-ifs, that's close right?
23:02	dsrx	haha
23:02	devn	dsrx: defjux is another one
23:02	devn	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitive_Jux
23:13	cark	ohhh the var function does not exist in clojurescript
23:15	cark	i guess today i'll have to write macros after all...
23:17	allenj12	can somone explain why (reduce ' (range 1 (inc n)))) but not (reduce (range 1 (inc n)))) no quote vs quote
23:17	allenj12	for finding the factorial
23:17	dsrx	cark: var function?
23:18	cark	,(var 'hello)
23:18	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Cons cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
23:18	cark	hum
23:19	cark	,(var +)
23:19	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/+
23:20	cark	i guess it's a macro or special form
23:21	cark	,(reduce * (range 1 (inc 4)))
23:21	clojurebot	24
23:21	cark	there is no quote
23:21	allenj12	it didnt work for me though with bigger numbers
23:21	allenj12	i got stack overflow
23:22	cark	,(reduce * (range 1 100))
23:22	clojurebot	#<ArithmeticException java.lang.ArithmeticException: integer overflow>
23:23	allenj12	,(reduce *' (range 1 100))
23:23	clojurebot	933262154439441526816992388562667004907159682643816214685929638952175999932299156089414639761565182862536979208272237582511852109168640000000000000000000000N
23:23	allenj12	clark; weird isnt it
23:23	cark	oh i know
23:23	cark	that's not stack overflow
23:24	cark	but integer overflow
23:24	cark	*' works with bigints too
23:24	cark	that's not syntax, *' is the function name
23:25	allenj12	clark: o yes sorry i misspoke i ment integer. interesting i couldnt find it on the clojure docs or anything
23:25	cark	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/*'
23:26	cark	too bad clojuredocs isn't maintained anymore ><
23:26	cark	or are there some news on that front ?
23:26	allenj12	clark: they arent? lol
23:26	SegFaultAX	Reddit writes the best blog posts.
23:26	SegFaultAX	allenj12: No, that's why it hasn't been updated since 1.3
23:27	cark	the real docs are, but not the clojuredocs web site
23:27	allenj12	SegFaultAX: interesting that does stink though
23:28	cark	http://clojure.github.io/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/*'
23:28	cark	that's the official thing
23:30	allenj12	clark: how have i not seen this yet! thank you