#clojure – 2014-01-10

2014-01-10

00:05	amalloy	##
00:05	amalloy	or a single & at the start of the message
00:05	rplaca	amalloy: why not write a macro to flip the let around? I don't think that would be too hard and it would be way more obvious to the reader what you were trying to do
00:05	amalloy	rplaca: i'm not excited about actually using this where construct, with the ->> trick or with a real macro
00:06	amalloy	just surprised to note that clojure could easily fake where "out of the box"
00:06	rplaca	amalloy: there's always that. It does seem nice in Haskell, but I'm not sure it would work (mentally) in Clojure
00:07	amalloy	rplaca: the problem with a where macro in clojure is that syntactically it can't come in the same place it does in haskell
00:07	amalloy	you have to write (with-where (+ x y) (where [x 1 y 2])) or something equally horrific
00:07	Wild_Cat	Haskell's where is a very postfix-ish contruct
00:07	rplaca	true, since you need a toket in the function position
00:07	rplaca	*token
00:07	amalloy	and ->> neatly fills that role
00:07	arrdem	damnit. Do "we" have any details on Clojure/west yet?
00:08	Wild_Cat	I think Clojure's standard "let" form is far cleaner.
00:08	amalloy	of course
00:08	rplaca	arrdem: last I heard, Alex was finalizing arrangements
00:08	amalloy	although haskell's works well in haskell
00:08	rplaca	amalloy: +1
00:08	arrdem	rplaca: awesome. we have a place and date.
00:08	arrdem	(inc rplaca)
00:08	lazybot	⇒ 1
00:08	Wild_Cat	in Haskell though, where feels more natural than let.
00:09	rplaca	arrdem: I think it's going to be SF. That's what ALex told me last I asked him about it, but that was back around the conj
00:09	rplaca	dunno the dates
00:09	arrdem	rplaca: yep.
00:09	arrdem	March 24->26
00:09	rplaca	ahh, cool
00:10	arrdem	which means that I can apply to get funding from the Department to come out :D
00:10	rplaca	I was hoping we'd do Portland again, but I guess I can't complain too much about SF
00:17	bitemyapp	Wild_Cat: partly because it lets you say upfront what you're going to return, overall, then where lets you describe how that got put together.
00:19	seancorfield	The Palace Hotel is really nice - MongoSF was there in 2013
00:22	logic_prog	dnolen: someone needs to write a core.async cookbook
00:22	logic_prog	dnolen: of all the pattenrns that (1) are hell with callbacks and (2) have really neat core.async solutions via csp
00:24	bbloom	amalloy: thanks! that msg is more for dnolen
00:24	amalloy	bbloom: i sent it to you because you're the one who committed the code
00:24	amalloy	but hey, if it's for him, let him know
00:24	bbloom	amalloy: really? i did?
00:25	amalloy	bbloom: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/af4ab91754d30f082b117b40c07ea94d0063c0d6
00:25	bbloom	amalloy: oh hey, i did.
00:25	bbloom	look at that, lol
00:26	bbloom	amalloy: is there a ticket?
00:26	amalloy	not as far as i know
00:26	bbloom	i've been drinking & am gonna wonder away from my desk now, but i don't want your bug report to go missing :-P
00:26	amalloy	seangrove just pasted a stacktrace of breakage, and i tracked it down to this code for him
00:27	bbloom	amalloy: thanks
00:27	bbloom	amalloy: if you or seangrove can open a ticket, that would be awesome. sorry i can't be more help now. thanks!
00:28	seangrove	bbloom: Enjoy your drinking!
00:55	ddellacosta	really confused by this exception: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalAccessError: get-header does not exist, compiling:(not_modified.clj:1:1) <-- seems to be referring to ring.middleware.not-modified, which refers to ring.util.response/get-header. What could be causing this? Full exception: https://www.refheap.com/22750
00:58	rplaca	seancorfield: is ClojureWest going to be at the Palace or are you just saying it would be good there?
01:01	TEttinger	ddellacosta, that's odd https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/blob/master/ring-core/src/ring/util/response.clj it is defined right?
01:02	seancorfield	rplaca: look at the clojurewest.org website
01:02	seancorfield	it lists the hotel and dates
01:02	ddellacosta	TEttinger: yeah. I'm poking around lein reps now...think it's probably something in a specific profile that's conflicting...older version of ring maybe?
01:02	seancorfield	oh, actually the website doesn't say... but alex's announcement on the mailing list did
01:02	TEttinger	https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/commit/52c11854f6050a2a4a9261c6e77acf265b0b194e#diff-84b6775eb77642c1afe9b5745af47a2f
01:03	TEttinger	ddellacosta, that commit, 10 months ago, added it
01:03	ddellacosta	TEttinger: huh, surprised it was even that recent
01:04	TEttinger	it's present in 1.2.0
01:05	TEttinger	(and everything newer)
01:05	ddellacosta	TEttinger: pooh, I figured it out...include from another private project of ours. Nevermind :-p
01:05	ddellacosta	pooh -> ooh
01:05	seancorfield	rplaca: here you go: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/HaZVWRiDEAM ;; Clojure/West announcement
01:05	ddellacosta	damn spellcheck
01:06	rplaca	arrdem: did you see that post from seancorfield - that's the pointer you were looking for
01:07	rplaca	seancorfield: you're on the bleding edge there - I'm not keeing up with the list that well these days :)
01:07	rplaca	*bleeding, keeping
01:07	rplaca	thanks!
01:07	rplaca	I like that choice, cause I can walk to it from my house.
01:08	seancorfield	I can walk to BART and ride that to SF :)
01:08	seancorfield	And it is a lovely venue!
01:09	seancorfield	I'd submit a topic proposal but I'm already committed to creating two new presos for conferences in May / June :(
01:10	rplaca	seancorfield: I'll have to think about whether I've got something worth submitting
01:12	xpika	The function read-string reads a single form. Is there a core clojure function that reads multiple forms like those in a .clj file?
01:28	sm0ke	how does one writes a recursive macro?
01:29	sm0ke	i am trying to write on with top level form as 1()
01:29	sm0ke	`() *
01:32	sm0ke	,(defmacro weird-macro [&body] `(~@body (weird-macro)))
01:32	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: body in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
01:32	sm0ke	,(defmacro weird-macro [& body] `(~@body (weird-macro)))
01:32	clojurebot	#'sandbox/weird-macro
01:32	sm0ke	,(weird-macro (inc 1))
01:32	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.StackOverflowError, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
01:33	sm0ke	oh did that worked!
01:46	arrdem	rplaca: thanks to insomnia I just did :D
02:52	andyf	bitemyapp: I saw in the logs a mention of a desire for eastwood to complain about :use
02:58	bitemyapp	andyf: yes
02:59	andyf	I am guessing no warnings are desired for a use with :only, only for a use that sucks in the whole namespace?
03:06	arrdem	andyf: personally I would object to any use of (use) over (requrire), but silencing a linter with :only is I suppose reasonable.
03:07	andyf	arrdem: I'd prefer to warn about the most dangerous uses only, in hopes that people will avoid just turning off those warnings.
03:08	andyf	arrdem: You don't even do (;use clojure.test) in your test namespaces?
03:08	arrdem	andyf: nope. I actually sumitted a patch to the lein template which replaces that (use) :P
03:09	arrdem	only useful patch I've got live anywhere but so be it.
03:09	andyf	arrdem: So you :require :refer [is] ?
03:09	arrdem	andyf: yep.
03:09	arrdem	andyf: occasionally I'll do a :refer :all if I know what I'm doing, but it's something I try to avoid.
03:14	mark_oz	hey guys, I'm having a bit of a problem with pulling a symbol from a map https://gist.github.com/markgandolfo/5adf492f5ad12d8af322
03:15	mark_oz	can anyone lend some experience?
03:16	arrdem	mark_oz: that's not a map, that's a list containing a map.
03:16	andyf	Try (:title (first post)) ? Looks like post is a sequence of one map, from the parens around it
03:16	arrdem	^^ this
03:17	mark_oz	thanks guys, that worked
03:58	bitemyapp	andyf: just suggest rewriting use with :only to require.
03:58	andyf	because?
03:59	bitemyapp	andyf: the safe thing is to expect use to get deprecate.d
03:59	bitemyapp	it's not orthogonal and people should phase it out of their code.
03:59	bitemyapp	it sets a very bad default.
03:59	bitemyapp	I'd do the same to Haskell's import if I had my druthers.
03:59	bitemyapp	sadly, they get away with it because they have an exceptional type system and compiler.
04:01	andyf	I'll consider it. Just working through the surprisingly-many cases of a use without :only right now. Trying to recognize them all.
04:02	andyf	Although I should simplify my life by assuming Clojure itself hasn't complained about it.
04:02	arrdem	bitemyapp: well... all done. ish. http://arrdem.com/2014/01/10/Batbridge.html
04:25	noncom	when using tools.namespace, i cannot predict its behavior. i have a project in "checkouts" of lein, and tools.namespace seem to fail finding the namespaces of the referred project in an arbitrary manner
04:26	noncom	if i manually load the ns that cannot be found, it then works
04:27	noncom	how do i make the tools.namespace/refresh to find all the files?
04:45	rurumate	,"hi"
04:45	clojurebot	"hi"
04:47	arcatan	"hi"
04:59	mullr	:salutations
05:06	ddellacosta	mullr: hello.
05:11	sveri	hi, i am trying to use the c2 (http://keminglabs.com/c2/) library and like to draw a polyline, however, i have not found an example or something similiar, how would i do that with c2? any ideas?
06:00	Arafangion	it isn't that hard to learn most languages though.
06:00	Arafangion	if i needed to work in a project, i would learn the language - might not be elegant at first but it isnt a big deal.
06:24	AeroNotix	has anyone used Authorize.Net from clojure and/or is there already a library for it?
06:25	fizruk	hello guys! what's the easiest way (with clj-time) to check whether to dates are separated by midnight (e.g. 31 Dec 2013 23:59:59 and 01 Jan 2014 00:00:01)?
06:29	augustl	AeroNotix: my first action would be to google for a Java lib for that
06:29	AeroNotix	augustl: there is. They provide it.
06:29	augustl	AeroNotix: and possibly just write that part in Java if that for some reason is less work
06:29	AeroNotix	augustl: no, java is never Less Work
06:29	augustl	perhaps they have a finished servlet you can just tack on to your exiting servlet, for handling the callbacks and such
06:30	AeroNotix	I've been looking at the docs. It's just classes which map to their SOAP API
06:30	AeroNotix	I just wanted to know if there was a better way.
06:31	augustl	fizruk: as in if they represent different days in a given time zone?
06:31	augustl	fizruk: or that they are adjacent days in a given time zone?
06:32	fizruk	augustl: different days in a given time zone, not always adjacent
06:36	fizruk	augustl: I wish I could truncate datetime to date, can I do that?
07:36	jtoy	is it possible to do this: from ns A include ns B , then if other namespaces use A, they can use the methods from ns B ?
07:38	jballanc_	jtoy: should be able to do that with anything you "use" or ":refer"
07:40	otfrom	Does anyone have an example of integrating friend and liberator?
07:40	otfrom	I know sritchie has been working on some stuff
08:00	sveri	hi, i am trying to use the c2 (http://keminglabs.com/c2/) library and like to draw a polyline, however, i have not found an example or something similiar, how would i do that with c2? any ideas?
08:25	rurumate	I want to write this with swiss-arrows but it fails: (-<> 2 (+ 4 (inc <>)))
08:25	rurumate	this works: (-<> 2 (+ 4 <>))
08:26	rurumate	Why can only use <> in the top level of expressions? Is there an alternative macro where the diamond can appear in nested forms?
08:26	fredyr	holy threading batman
08:27	mdrogalis	Looked at this before I had my coffee. Brain broken.
08:27	fredyr	haven't seen swiss-arrows before
08:31	fredyr	the doc string says top-level insertion of x in place of single
08:31	fredyr	positional '<>' symbol
08:36	edbond	fizruk, try (to-date) and compare
08:37	fizruk	edbond: thanks!
08:45	edbond	fizruk, I was wrong, you need to extract year, month, date and compare them
08:45	edbond	(year (fmt/parse (fmt/formatter "yyyy-MM-dd HH:mm:ss") "2013-12-31 23:59:59")) ;; 2013
08:47	edbond	((juxt year month day) d1) ;; [2013 12 31]
08:48	fizruk	fortunately, one of two dates I deal with is (now), so I just used (after? (today-at-midnight) dt)
08:48	fizruk	nevertheless, it seems that clj-time lacks date truncation functions
08:51	DerGuteMoritz	ohai edbond :-)
08:51	edbond	DerGuteMoritz, hello :)
08:52	DerGuteMoritz	long time no see :-)
09:02	ro_st	dnolen: what could prevent cljsbuild :none incremental builds? we're getting 10s a build even with a single change to a single ns
09:02	ro_st	what's the best way to dig into why it's so slow?
09:03	ro_st	cljs "0.0-2138" / cljsbuild "1.0.1"
09:05	jcromartie	in Light Table, where can I see errors related to connections?
09:05	jcromartie	i.e. I am trying to connect to a project but it fails silently
09:08	CookedGryphon	jcromartie: there's a little red box near the bottom of the screen with a number in it (the number of errors*
09:08	CookedGryphon	click that to bring up the console
09:12	john2x	hello. is there a leiningen plugin for colored input/output for the repl?
09:12	jcromartie	the console doesn't show anything when I add a connection to a project.clj
09:13	jcromartie	it is just silent, like it isn't even trying
09:13	jcromartie	does it just not work?
09:13	jcromartie	or do I misunderstand what "add connection" does?
09:13	jcromartie	I'd expect it to open a REPL
09:15	CookedGryphon	jcromartie: try pressing ctrl + enter in a file
09:15	CookedGryphon	i've not played with it much myself, but i remember being a little confused by that, but evaluating something in a file loaded it automatically
09:15	jcromartie	hm, so it doesn't connect until you Ctrl + Enter
09:17	jcromartie	but, yeah, it's working for my app! yay
09:17	jcromartie	I am still a fan of Emacs with Cider
09:18	jcromartie	just because it's familiar
09:18	CookedGryphon	i haven't even taken the time to move from nrepl yet
09:18	ro_st	i'm happy to wait 6 months for the community to build LT up
09:18	CookedGryphon	too much work to do to be faffing around with my setu
09:18	CookedGryphon	setup*
09:18	ro_st	losing magit is going to be hard to deal with
09:19	CookedGryphon	LT does look promising though
09:19	ro_st	very!
09:19	CookedGryphon	being able to write plugins in clojure rather than elisp opens up a lot of avenues
09:19	jcromartie	:P
09:19	CookedGryphon	so many things I've wanted my editor to do but got fed up of elisp
09:19	jcromartie	I see that there's a paredit plugin and commands, but no default keybindings?
09:19	ro_st	i feel like i've paid my school fees for emacs now
09:20	ro_st	did the trial-by-fire of learning the paredits binds
09:20	CookedGryphon	ro_st: you can move those all over to light table!
09:20	CookedGryphon	in theory, I haven't managed to get the emacs bindings to work yet
09:20	ro_st	the paredit in LT is not the paredit that's in emacs
09:20	jcromartie	no
09:21	ro_st	some stuff is there, but no ways is there all of it
09:21	CookedGryphon	ro_st: so make them match, the keybinding action stuff is so so easy compared to emacs
09:21	CookedGryphon	you can just add stuff as you miss it
09:21	ro_st	like you, i have far too much work to do
09:21	CookedGryphon	but yeah, I'm going to give it another release or two
09:21	ro_st	heck, we only just moved to cljsbuild 1.0.1 this week
09:23	ro_st	i experienced the warm glow that is working cljs sourcemaps today. stepping breakpoints in cljs in the browser. man. so awesome
09:23	AeroNotix	How do I use -> macros on mutable java objects?
09:23	AeroNotix	I.e. a (.Method Object) -> nil
09:23	ro_st	AeroNotix: (.. thing .call .call)
09:23	AeroNotix	trying
09:23	hyPiRion	AeroNotix: usually you'd use doto instead
09:23	AeroNotix	I tried this
09:23	AeroNotix	oh I will look at doto, as well.
09:23	ro_st	clojure.org/java_interop
09:23	AeroNotix	Cheers!
09:23	hyPiRion	,(doto (java.util.ArrayList.) (.add 1) (.add 2))
09:23	clojurebot	[1 2]
09:24	rukor	ro_st: i had that when i had local macros. When i moved the macros to a library in checkouts i got back sub second compilation. Not saying it's it but just sharing my experience
09:25	AeroNotix	,(doto (Calendar/getInstance) (.add Calendar/DAY_OF_YEAR -10) (.getTime))
09:25	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: Calendar, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
09:25	AeroNotix	dero
09:25	ro_st	rukor: we only have macros in our checkouts
09:26	ro_st	pure cljs in the main project
09:26	rukor	ro_st: interesting then
09:26	ro_st	weird thing is, on 1.7.0_45 on mac it's fine - 0.5s. i have ubuntu users on 1.7.0_25 getting 10s
09:26	ro_st	curiouser and curiouser
09:27	ro_st	they're not getting incremental, basically
09:28	rukor	would seem so.
09:28	rukor	clean, then start over?
09:29	ro_st	that was our first port of call :-) lein clean, lein cljsbuild clean
09:55	expez	After doing reloading code and running tests with clojure-test-mode the tests starts to get duplicated instead of updated, why does this happen?
10:08	ro_st	rukor, dnolen: the issue has been found and resolved https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild/issues/281
10:19	rukor	ro_st: thanks
10:40	CookedGryphon	I think I'm getting weird bugs trying to combine core.match with core.async
10:40	gfredericks	expez: did you rename a test?
10:41	CookedGryphon	if i do a match inside a go block, I always seem to end up with only the first match working and everything else falling through to the else
10:41	CookedGryphon	take it out of the go block and it works as expected
10:42	fizruk	is there a map-like function for persistent Maps which returns new persistent Map? e.g. (my-map + {1 2 3 4}) => {1 3 3 7}
10:42	fizruk	I'd like to map values (but use key when mapping)
10:43	sw1nn	sritchie: I'm looking at friend + liberator integration and I found your PR on liberator, Where is friend/unauthorized! - is that your function?
10:45	DerGuteMoritz	fizruk: (into {} (map (fn [[k v]] [k (+ k v)]) {1 2 3 4})) is how you'd usually do it
10:45	hyPiRion	fizruk: just ##(into {} (for [[k v] {1 2 3 4}] [k (+ k v)]))
10:45	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (3) passed to: core$for
10:45	sritchie	sw1nn: yeah, I was writing up a post - let me push the example repo I'm making
10:45	DerGuteMoritz	hmhm, for
10:46	fizruk	,(#(zipmap (keys %) (map (partial apply +) %)) {1 2 3 4})
10:46	clojurebot	{3 7, 1 3}
10:46	sw1nn	sritchie: great, thanks
10:46	DerGuteMoritz	ugh :-)
10:46	sritchie	https://github.com/sritchie/liberator-friend/blob/master/src/liberator_friend/core.clj
10:47	sritchie	so, the routes + stuff for hte post aren't in place yet,
10:47	sritchie	sw1nn: but here's the applied friend middleware with basic auth,
10:47	sritchie	https://github.com/sritchie/liberator-friend/blob/master/src/liberator_friend/middleware/auth.clj
10:47	fizruk	DerGuteMoritz: hyPiRion: thanks!
10:47	sritchie	and here are the resource helpers:
10:47	sritchie	sw1nn: https://github.com/sritchie/liberator-friend/blob/master/src/liberator_friend/resources.clj
10:47	DerGuteMoritz	fizruk: yw!
10:47	DerGuteMoritz	reduce-kv could also be worth trying
10:48	DerGuteMoritz	,(reduce-kv (fn [r k v] (assoc r k (+ k v))) {} {1 2 3 4})
10:48	clojurebot	{3 7, 1 3}
10:49	sw1nn	sritchie: Thats fantastic, just what I was looking for, thanks again.
10:49	sritchie	sw1nn: so making a resource with :base authenticated-base will get you going
10:49	sritchie	I think there's a bug or two in here with pass the context vs request...
10:49	sritchie	I have a busted level of unwrapping at one spot
10:50	sritchie	sw1nn: lmk how it goes! Comments on the proj would be great if you have suggestions
10:50	sritchie	more coming on that soon
10:54	zerokarmaleft	sritchie: nice, I'm working on a project with liberator+friend too...I may have some questions/comments for you later
10:55	sritchie	for sure
10:55	sritchie	I'm traveling today, so if you guys want to make issues on that project that'd be great
10:55	sritchie	I'll get that post out sunday or monday, probably
10:56	gfredericks	is there an option in recent cheshire to turn off the top-level-lazy-seq thing?
10:57	dakrone	gfredericks: yes, there's a parse-strict option
10:57	TimMc	gfredericks: something somethign strict
10:57	jcromartie	so while clojure.tools.namespace is nice, I've just decided to add a call to a custom (unmap-all) at the top of my namespaces
10:57	jcromartie	yes it breaks defonce
10:58	gfredericks	dakrone: gotcha looks like 5.3; will upgrade
11:16	boblarrick	Is there a way to do something like `(map #(apply * 400 %) [1 [2 (/ 9 8)]])` that would return (400 900) ?
11:19	jcromartie	boblarrick: wat...
11:20	hyPiRion	,(map #(apply * 400 (cond-> % (not (sequential? %)) vector)) [1 [2 (/ 9 8)]])
11:20	clojurebot	(400 900N)
11:21	hyPiRion	probably not the best one though
11:21	justin_smith	,(map #(apply * 400 %) [[1] [2 (/ 9 8)]])
11:21	clojurebot	(400 900N)
11:21	jcromartie	I see
11:22	justin_smith	jcromartie: do you really need the input to be sometimes number sometimes sequential?
11:22	jcromartie	jcromartie: boblarrick was asking
11:23	justin_smith	oh, oops
11:23	justin_smith	boblarrick: do you really need the input to sometimes be a number and sometimes sequential?
11:24	boblarrick1	justin_smith: Yeah I was hoping for a way that didn't use cond, and that could handle sometimes number, sometimes seq
11:25	gfredericks	oh I didn't just want strict, I wanted a vector
11:26	gfredericks	hmm
11:26	justin_smith	,(map #(apply * 400 (flatten %&)) [1 [2 (/ 9 8)]]) ; I hate myself for this, but it works
11:26	clojurebot	(400 900N)
11:27	justin_smith	that code tastes like sawdust :(
11:27	clgv	does leiningen's :global-var also work for non clojure.core variables?
11:38	zerokarmaleft	boblarrick1: I'd take that as a code smell...perhaps whatever is generating the sequence to map over can supply a seq that's uniform
11:39	zerokarmaleft	i.e. a single number is wrapped in a vector
11:40	zerokarmaleft	then you get something clean like what justin_smith first suggested
11:40	zerokarmaleft	,(map #(apply * 400 %) [[1] [2 (/ 9 8)]])
11:40	clojurebot	(400 900N)
11:43	justin_smith	zerokarmaleft: notice that was exactly my first suggestion
11:43	justin_smith	and noting flatten makes it do what he wants: ~flatten
11:43	justin_smith	err
11:43	justin_smith	~flatten
11:43	clojurebot	flatten is rarely the right answer. Suppose you need to use a list as your "base type", for example. Usually you only want to flatten a single level, and in that case you're better off with concat. Or, better still, use mapcat to produce a sequence that's shaped right to begin with.
11:44	ddima_	smart bot
11:44	stuartsierra	~botsnack
11:44	clojurebot	Thanks, but I prefer chocolate
11:44	stuartsierra	:)
11:44	gfredericks	has anybody seen some nrepl middleware that wraps everything in (time ...)?
11:44	gfredericks	or know of a similarly structured middleware I could blindly mimick?
11:46	stuartsierra	xeqi: Pushed fix for DJSON-13, if you want to give it a try.
11:46	zerokarmaleft	justin_smith: yes, I see that...just wanted to reinforce that "flatten" is usually a bad idea :)
11:48	boblarrick1	Thanks al
11:48	boblarrick1	*all
11:49	justin_smith	zerokarmaleft: but that is why I suggested flatten - the root problem is a design problem, the same design problem that leads to using flatten
11:50	justin_smith	flatten being a symptom of that problem, not solution, mind you
11:52	boblarrick1	/shrug. Who knows where data comes from, and how much control one has over it.
12:00	justin_smith	boblarrick1: would you a) write a version of multiply that checked if args were strings and parsed them as numbers before multiplying, or b) write a preprocessor that validated and coerced input when received? No need to complect handling input with processing it.
12:05	jcromartie	can anybody help me understand why this works the way it does, and how to avoid it? https://gist.github.com/jcromartie/b63a93e0845603636f9e
12:06	jcromartie	sorry, updated
12:06	boblarrick1	justin_smith: Of course I'd us a preprocessor, unless I was getting data from somewhere else and playing around with overtone in a repl and just wanted a oneliner ;)
12:07	justin_smith	jcromartie: my hunch is that defn creates a var, or resets it if it exists
12:07	justin_smith	jcromartie: and g does not get f as a name of a var, but the var f resolves to
12:08	justin_smith	jcromartie: so if the initial var exists, it picks up the new value, but after the remapping, f is a different var (just happening to have the same name) so it does not affect g when you set its value
12:08	justin_smith	just guessing though
12:08	Bronsa	jcromartie: http://sprunge.us/GYMF
12:09	Bronsa	justin_smith: that's almost right
12:09	jcromartie	Bronsa, justin_smith, seems to be the case
12:09	jcromartie	thanks
12:09	justin_smith	Bronsa: cool, that seems to back up my hunch
12:09	justin_smith	Bronsa: about the almost, please enlighten me
12:09	jcromartie	so, is there a way to remove stale vars while avoiding this issue?
12:09	Bronsa	justin_smith: it's not defn that creates\|\|resets, it's def
12:10	justin_smith	Bronsa: right, because defn is just a macro over def, right?
12:10	Bronsa	sure
12:11	justin_smith	well, clearly not just, now that I see the source
12:11	stuartsierra	data.json 0.2.4 is in the can now.
12:12	Bronsa	jcromartie: not really, the closest you can get is to unbind the var (.unbindRoot #'the-var) instead of ns-unmapping it
12:12	jcromartie	so if I do this: (doseq [sym (keys (ns-interns ns))] (ns-unmap ns sym))
12:13	jcromartie	I want to specifically avoid the issues where renaming a function during interactive development leads to floating references hanging around
12:13	jcromartie	and I'd love to use clojure.tools.namespace but it blows up on my with my AOT needs
12:13	jcromartie	I guess the answer is "be careful"
12:14	justin_smith	jcromartie: I wonder about maybe a function that parses a namespace file as edn, and also looks at the ns-publics of the same namespace, and returns the ns-publics not reflected by the forms in said edn?
12:15	stuartsierra	jcromartie: Don't know if this is an option for your use case, but if you can separate your AOT-compiled code into another project, tools.namespace will work.
12:15	justin_smith	which more or less would give you the floating stuff (unless you were using higher level trickery to create vars)
12:16	jcromartie	maybe I could redefine def :)
12:16	jcromartie	to update a counter
12:16	jcromartie	oh god what have I done
12:17	technomancy	gen-class inside a fedonce
12:17	technomancy	defonce
12:18	pandeiro	where does stdout end up going when using lein repl :headless ...?
12:19	technomancy	pandeiro: "stdout" is ambigious
12:19	pandeiro	technomancy: i'm using pedestal and when i do `lein run`, services log requests to the terminal's stdout; when i do `lein repl :headless` etc, they don't
12:19	technomancy	System/out will go wherever the process is started
12:19	justin_smith	technomancy: yeah, I have been tempted to use defonce for side effects like that, maybe it calls for a "do-once" macro
12:20	technomancy	the root binding of out will be the same
12:20	technomancy	out of th ebox at least
12:20	stuartsierra	`gen-class` has no effect when not AOT-compiling.
12:20	technomancy	pedestal might change it
12:20	technomancy	the thread-local binding of out could be anything the client wants it to be
12:20	pandeiro	technomancy: i am using foreman to start a bunch of services in one terminal, maybe that is at play... but when i use foreman with lein run, i see output
12:21	technomancy	remove variables until the problem can be isolated
12:21	pandeiro	yeah ok
12:24	hansel-han	any library name that includes a substring of "clojure" is an instant classic imo. can't really go wrong with that.
12:25	hansel-han	i'm lovin "Cloact", React for Clojurescript
12:25	michaniskin	clojacked
12:25	michaniskin	disregard that came out wrong :)
12:25	michaniskin	i mean clojact
12:25	hansel-han	oh, nice
12:26	hansel-han	the impromptu brilliance of this community keeps me coming back
12:26	michaniskin	i guess probably not good to have "jacked" in the name, at least in the US
12:26	hansel-han	nah, dude. i always tell people at the gym how jacked i am
12:27	michaniskin	my barber shaves jacks every day
12:27	michaniskin	dude is a hacker extraordinaire
12:27	andyf	Bronsa: Any thoughts on alpha releases of tools.analyzer(.jvm) libs? :-)
12:28	tbaldridge	Bronsa: I'll also be asking for this sometime in the next few months, I'm re-writing core.async to use tools.analyzer as we speak
12:29	Bronsa	ok, I guess a 0.1.0-alpha1 is in the way then
12:30	hyPiRion	yay
12:30	stuartsierra	java.classpath 0.2.2 is on the way.
12:30	hyPiRion	I need to use tools.analyzer for some project of mine, but really want a stable release. So this is good
12:31	andyf	Bronsa: excellent. Eastwood still has some sharp edges, and I'm sure there are problems I don't know about yet, but it seems about ready to have a few more people besides us run it through the grinder
12:32	jcromartie	woah… Chrome's view-source gives some serious nondeterministic results
12:32	jcromartie	weird
12:32	Bronsa	right, I guess having people actually use it will probably help us find/fix more bugs :)
12:32	bbloom	Bronsa: i apologize in advance for asking this question, but ... how hard would it be to add XML literals to the reader?
12:33	bbloom	Bronsa: b/c apparently "looks like HTML" is an important requirement for some people, lol
12:33	Bronsa	stuartsierra: t.a.j depends on t.a, does hudson automatically update the t.a version in t.a.j pom.xml or sohuld I do it manually myself?
12:33	jonasen	bbloom: :)
12:33	stuartsierra	Bronsa: No, dependency version numbers are not updated automatically.
12:33	Bronsa	bbloom: ugh. there's the issue of < > and friends being clojure.core functions
12:33	Bronsa	stuartsierra: ok, thanks
12:34	stuartsierra	Bronsa: you're welcome
12:34	Bronsa	bbloom: I can try and give you a patch if you're really sure you mean it
12:35	bbloom	Bronsa: lol i don't want it
12:35	jonasen	bbloom: you could do a JSX transformation and translate <foo></foo> into (foo) or [:foo]
12:35	bbloom	Bronsa: i'm not personally interested in such silliness, since HTML is an abomination for UI components anyway
12:35	Bronsa	phew
12:35	bbloom	jonasen: yeah, that's basically the idea
12:35	bbloom	if it was just hilariously easy, i'd want it for the sake of a joke tho :-P
12:36	bbloom	if it was like "i can hack that out in ~20 min w/ low quality w/ some shitty regexes" i'd enjoy that, but that's the extent of my request
12:39	andyf	Bronsa: Oh, one question on top level do forms. Does Clojure treat a do inside of a top level do the same as the top level do, i.e. analyze and evaluate its forms one at a time?
12:40	technomancy	pretty sure it's just one level
12:40	Bronsa	andyf: I'm not really sure about that, let me check
12:40	S11001001	I think it's recursive
12:41	Bronsa	it is one level, but I think clojure transforms (do (do foo bar)) into (do foo bar) somewhere
12:41	apetresc	What's the most mature parser-generator for Clojure? Like, to generate a parser for some CFG/PEG?
12:42	tbaldridge	apetresc: I've heard instaparse is good
12:42	apetresc	I'm aware of fnparse but it doesn't look like it's seen any activity for ~3 years
12:42	apetresc	tbaldridge, instaparse, thanks, I'll look into it :)
12:43	apetresc	Oh neat, it looks perfect. Thanks again, tbaldridge!
12:43	jcromartie	"Can't change/establish root binding of: print-length with set" ??? like hell I can't
12:43	hyPiRion	apetresc: yeah, instaparse is the best
12:43	justin_smith	jcromartie: maybe you need binding or alter-var-root ?
12:44	jcromartie	,(set! print-length 100)
12:44	clojurebot	100
12:44	jcromartie	I can have this in a file when I recompile it with C-k, but not when it's loaded when starting up the project
12:44	tbaldridge	jcromartie: the var doesn't have a root. set it with alter-var-root
12:45	jcromartie	why does it work after the facT?
12:45	jcromartie	after the REPL starts up, that is
12:45	technomancy	the repl binds it
12:45	tbaldridge	jcromartie: stuart just talked me through that one the other day. You can't do set! on a var that is unbound. The REPL goes and sets roots for a ton of stuff. That doesn't happen when you app is run outside of the repl.
12:46	jcromartie	ah ha
12:46	tbaldridge	I dug into Var.java for awhile at it does make sense, but yeah, it's a pain.
12:46	jcromartie	is there any kind of hook for after the REPL starts up, particularly in a user.clj namespace?
12:46	tbaldridge	*and it
12:47	amalloy	$google lein sample project.clj
12:47	lazybot	[Leiningen's sample project.clj - GitHub] https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj
12:47	amalloy	jcromartie: iirc it's called something like :repl-init
12:47	tbaldridge	I'd just wrap your app entry point in a (binding[])
12:48	jcromartie	thanks amalloy
12:49	Bronsa	bbloom: http://sprunge.us/GbOX?diff
12:49	bbloom	Bronsa: ha! awesome. does that really work?
12:50	Bronsa	wait, it has a bug.
12:50	bbloom	Bronsa: too bad the #< dispatch macro is already used for "unreadable"
12:50	bbloom	which i guess is accurate, since XML is unreadable... ZING!
12:50	andyf	Bronsa: I test eval form seems to confirm that a do inside of a top level do somehow causes its subforms to be analyzed and evaluated before the next subform
12:51	Bronsa	bbloom: http://sprunge.us/HIKX?clj here
12:51	Bronsa	s/clj/diff
12:53	Bronsa	andyf: yeah, looks like so (line 5733 of Compiler.java)
12:54	Bronsa	so it does (do (do 1 2) 3 4) => (do 1 2 3 4)
12:59	amalloy	andyf: a top-level (do a b) is treated as if it were the two top-level forms a and b. naturally if a or b is a do, the same thing happens "recursively"
12:59	andyf	Bronsa: amalloy: technomany: I can't navigate Clojure compiler source as fast as Bronsa, but this REPL interaction confirms his findings https://gist.github.com/jafingerhut/8359201
13:01	amalloy	andyf: you've doubtless already written code many times that would break if things didn't work this way
13:02	andyf	amalloy: If I did, I wasn't aware of it :-)
13:02	amalloy	well, i was thinking of stuff that macroexpands to (do (do (do (defn ...)))) or whatever, but i guess if there aren't any "backreferences" in there it would work either way
13:03	bbloom	Bronsa: ok now dnolen needs to write a blog post to be like "what? you want HTML? fine. you bastards"
13:03	andyf	OK, well now I know. Looks like I need to go remove the max-1-deep limitation I coded into the part of Eastwood that handles this case.
13:03	bacon1989	Hi, I was wondering how easy it would be to jump into clojure with clojurescript? I have very little lisp experience other than emacslisp
13:05	dnolen	bbloom: Bronsa: heh that is pretty cool, but I really am glad to remain clear of such trivial decisions
13:05	justin_smith	bacon1989: the toolchain with clojurescript is still a little janky in my experience - it works but the dev environment / workflow is weird (to me at least)
13:05	justin_smith	that said, clojurescript is great once you have it compiling / running in the browser
13:06	seancribbs	dnolen: ohai, you going to stick around?
13:06	dnolen	seancribbs: yep
13:06	justin_smith	bacon1989: the jvm version is much easier to fire up and experiment with and learn in
13:06	seancribbs	dnolen: cool, midday meetings and things then I'll ask you about Om stuff
13:07	S11001001	bacon1989: there's a little more setup than emacs lisp, unless you're non-FP and are going to hold onto anti-FP biases. I can't say about clojurescript, though. First tip: ignore clojure install, go to https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen#installation and https://github.com/clojure-emacs/cider#installation , that's what you need to start.
13:07	S11001001	bacon1989: as you mentioned elisp I assume your editor of choice is emacs.
13:08	dnolen	bacon1989: I think worth learning Clojure first, ClojureScript is not significantly different and the tooling is admittedly not as nice.
13:08	dnolen	bacon1989: doing ClojureScript in Light Table is the best experience I've seen so far
13:11	rasmusto	bacon1989: doing clojure in lighttable is easy too
13:12	bacon1989	that's a lot of info, thanks a lot
13:12	bacon1989	I already have clojure running cider on emacs with leinigen
13:12	bacon1989	The only web development i've done though, is PHP and Python
13:13	bacon1989	i'm kind of wondering how long it could take for someone like myself to pick up clojure and write meaningful application?
13:13	bacon1989	I guess it would also depend on my dedication, maybe I shouldn't jump into it and use it in my next project 'just yet'
13:13	rasmusto	depends on your definition of "meaningful"
13:14	rasmusto	bacon1989: I'd definitely recommend playing around with 4clojure and project euler before you try to build something with it, just to get language familiarity
13:15	rasmusto	also, clojure programming (o'reilly) and the joy of clojure are good references
13:26	justin_smith	bacon1989: yeah, seconding rasmusto, common mistake for people coming from an algol-family language is to just jump in not really understanding clojure syntax/semantics, and 4clojure / clojure koans / euler will help prevent the tiny newbie mistakes from turning into a frustrating mess in a real project
13:26	Bronsa	andyf: hiredman tbaldridge t.a/t.a.j 0.1.0-alpha1 on their way to maven
13:26	hiredman	neato
13:27	andyf	Bronsa: If you are at Clojure/West, I owe you a beer :-)
13:28	Bronsa	andyf: eh, I could only wish I was. Italy is somewhat far :)
13:29	Bronsa	duh. s/hiredman/hyPiRion
13:30	hiredman	hey, I care
13:31	hyPiRion	Bronsa: yay
13:32	muhoo	why is alter not alter!, or why isn't swap! swap ?
13:32	technomancy	muhoo: ! kind of half-heartedly means "unsafe in a transaction"
13:33	justin_smith	and alter only works in a transaction
13:36	muhoo	makes sense, thanks
13:38	TimMc	technomancy: I'm going to start referring to Java! instead of Java
13:38	technomancy	hehe
13:38	TimMc	Downside: People will think I am excited about Java.
13:38	technomancy	or a yahoo! employee?
13:38	TimMc	ha
13:39	amalloy	dangit technomancy, too fast for me
13:40	TimMc	technomancy: Wait, is that that keyboard you have to solder together?
13:40	technomancy	yeah
13:41	technomancy	it is The Best
13:41	technomancy	https://secure.flickr.com/photos/technomancy/11437911574/
13:41	amalloy	TimMc: technomancy's POV is that every keyboard is the one you have to solder together, but people just aren't as aware of it
13:42	technomancy	I'm not hard-core like thisg uy though: https://secure.flickr.com/photos/obra/8197649629/
13:43	TimMc	amalloy: Yeah, yeah. :-P
13:43	TimMc	I meant "you", not "you".
13:43	technomancy	he couldn't even wait for the circuit board
13:44	TimMc	technomancy: That first picture is one of the most hipster things I have ever seen. (Note: "Hipster" not used in a derogatory fashion here.)
13:45	rasmusto	I think its the scarf that really brings the picture together
13:45	hiredman	I dunno, technomancy often wears a scarf, that is pretty hipster
13:45	rasmusto	(inc hiredman)
13:45	lazybot	⇒ 33
13:46	bacon1989	thank you rasmusto and justin_smith, I got lost in some code
13:46	bacon1989	I think I might pick up the oreilly book and just practise with it at first
13:46	rasmusto	bacon1989: http://www.4clojure.com/ until you have the book :)
13:47	justin_smith	bacon1989: try some of 4clojure in the browser too - but note that numeric order is not difficulty/knowledge order
13:47	justin_smith	jynx
13:47	technomancy	TimMc: someone referred to it as "fashioning my very own majestic hand chariots" which is maybe my new favourite phrase
13:47	TEttinger	hey I had a beard before it was hip. I'm a neckbeard grognard, not a hipster!
13:48	seubert	is there a way to reset my 4clojure account
13:48	seubert	i did a bunch of exercises a year or so ago and was just going to restart
13:48	TEttinger	seubert, did you submit a password as an answer? haha
13:48	seubert	no haha
13:48	justin_smith	you could just make a new one?
13:49	hansel-han	if you started a website today, would yall use example.com or www.example.com?
13:49	seubert	justin_smith: gotta dig up an email to use then i guess :V
13:49	seubert	haha both of my usual emails are already used
13:49	seubert	i must have gone through this process before
13:49	technomancy	hansel-han: www-less looks nicer, but it's a lot less flexible if you need to make changes due to a ddos
13:50	hansel-han	every once in a while, i read a discussion where `www` provides benefits, but i can't tell how esoteric or useful the benefits are
13:50	technomancy	hansel-han: https://devcenter.heroku.com/articles/apex-domains
13:50	hansel-han	technomancy: if the extent of my response to handling a ddos was to utilize cloudflare, would i care?
13:50	hansel-han	i'll read that, thanks
13:51	justin_smith	hansel-han: if you own foo.com, you also control www.foo.com automatically
13:52	hansel-han	justin_smith: right. half the sites i own redirect www->naked, the other half naked->www. i'm launching a fresh website and trying to be deliberate about it for once
13:59	nDuff	...there are some fairly common practices that violate the letter of the RFC when done with naked domains
13:59	nDuff	though why we're having this discussion in #clojure...
14:00	stompyj	does anyone have any experience with deploying clojure apps to vagrant?
14:03	jcromartie	stompyj: a little
14:03	jcromartie	generally with "lein run"
14:03	jcromartie	and a good main
14:04	stompyj	jcromartie: but the step before that, do you just check out master from git? etc?
14:04	TimMc	technomancy: That is a fantastic phrase.
14:05	stompyj	currently I'm using chef+capistrano
14:05	stompyj	wondering if I should just move to ansible
14:07	jcromartie	… why would ansible beat chef + capistrano
14:07	jcromartie	when you can just push an uberjar and run it?
14:08	jcromartie	either check out source and lein run, or package the uberjar and push that
14:08	jcromartie	actually I prefer the uberjar for most cases
14:08	stompyj	hmmmm, actually, pushing the uberjar is extremely interesting
14:08	stompyj	I just don't want to use capistrano, and ansible (supposedly) can handle deploys
14:09	stompyj	deploying to production is so easy with beanstalk or heroku
14:09	stompyj	when I went to deploy to vagrant I wasn't sure what the idiomatic-esque solution was
14:09	technomancy	are you talking about vagrant in production or what?
14:11	stompyj	no, we use vagrant as a staging like environment
14:12	stompyj	that was any developer can just "vagrant up" a service
14:12	stompyj	instead of having to worry about dependencies on their local box
14:12	technomancy	yeah, the uberjar is a great way to do that
14:12	stompyj	yeah
14:12	stompyj	that sounds like the move
14:13	stompyj	I keep forgetting that its all java under the hood, so .jar and .war files are in play
14:13	mdrogalis	Stu Halloway is on the Youtube's live right now
14:13	tbaldridge	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD9UCfQohQE
14:13	technomancy	you'll need to figure out $JVM_OPTS yourself from wherever the rest of your config is coming from
14:14	stompyj	technomancy: makes sense, thanks!
14:14	stompyj	I saw Rich give a talk on datomic here in NY a couple of months ago, itching to use it in a project
14:15	randomenduser	I'm having troubles getting https://github.com/cemerick/austin up and running. Is that the recommended way to get a browser repl these days?
14:16	TimMc	stompyj: So if you have a bunch of services you need to develop against, do you load the vagrant instances locally, or on a remote machine?
14:16	seancribbs	dnolen: ping
14:17	stompyj	TimMc: right now, locally. as I'm sure you're thinking, this is problematic if you have a ton of services. this project I'm doing now only has 3
14:17	stompyj	so it's not so bad
14:17	cemerick	randomenduser: I certainly believe so. If you follow the readme and/or the browser-connected application sample that it links to, you should be good. If not, file an issue.
14:18	randomenduser	cemerick, I'll close everything and go slow then report back :)
14:19	stompyj	TimMc: so far the upside has been well worth the downside for us. and eventually, I"m sure we'll be able to use docker to spin up a single vm instance, and use docker slices to add services on top
14:19	dnolen	seancribbs: pong
14:23	jcromartie	is it bad practice to use assertions for business logic checks?
14:24	mdrogalis	jcromartie: It depends :P
14:24	mdrogalis	I think it depends mostly on how you want to react to failure.
14:24	randomenduser	cemerick, my fault! (cemerick.piggieback/cljs-repl :repl-env (cemerick.austin/exec-env)) was exactly what I was looking for. Very slick
14:25	cemerick	randomenduser: (cemerick.austin.repls/exec) is even shorter if you really just want a REPL w/o any ceremony :-)
14:25	randomenduser	cheers :)
14:25	jcromartie	comparing (assert x "Invalid x") to (when-not x (throw (IllegalArgumentException. "Invalid x")))
14:25	jcromartie	I certainly prefer to write the former
14:26	mdrogalis	jcromartie: There's a little more to consider than that. Where do the assertions go? Complected with the business logic? Where does the failure reaction go?
14:27	jcromartie	unfortunately it's in a messy routine that executes a bunch of outside API calls
14:28	mdrogalis	tbaldridge: Hector sounds sleepy lol
14:29	jcromartie	it's a command pattern, and performing the command returns events that are then applied to the read model and stored, or else an exception is thrown and the whole thing is abandoned
14:29	seancribbs	dnolen: wow, my RTT sucks :D
14:29	seancribbs	hahah
14:30	jcromartie	if I thought I could provide some useful feedback then I'd use ex-info
14:30	seancribbs	dnolen: i think what I'm struggling right now is app structure/organization, and what 'owner' is in the functions in your todomvc example.
14:30	mdrogalis	jcromartie: Maybe this might work? https://github.com/MichaelDrogalis/dire#preconditions
14:30	dnolen	seancribbs: it's the backing React component
14:30	seancribbs	ok, so like the "parent" in the DOM sense?
14:31	seancribbs	oh wait, i see now
14:31	seancribbs	n/m
14:31	dnolen	seancribbs: I wanted to remove the React-isms and make it a bit more Clojure-like, in React you would typically define a new React class per component, with React.createClass
14:31	jcromartie	interesting
14:32	dnolen	seancribbs: in Om we have a single component which allows to present a much more functional and immutable value oriented API
14:33	TimMc	stompyj: Good to hear, because I'm currently running like 10 other services on my laptop and not thrilled about it. :-P
14:33	dnolen	a single React component I mean, called Pure
14:34	Jarda	dnolen: how does http://holmsand.github.io/cloact/ compare to OM?
14:34	dnolen	Jarda: it doesn't enforce a component design which makes app-state snapshottable
14:34	stompyj	TimMc: yeah, for us, half our team is osx, and the other half is linux, and we had issues with people struggling to install dependencies, etc
14:34	stompyj	and the vagrant environment cleaned all that up
14:35	TimMc	Jarda: "cloact" sounds like a part of bird anatomy :-(
14:35	dnolen	Jarda: Om does, and I have some things planned around that
14:35	Jarda	TimMc: also cloact seems to be a drug of some kind (according to google results)
14:35	Jarda	dnolen: ok
14:36	TimMc	Jarda: Probably something for constipated chickens.
14:37	hyPiRion	I think calling it "Cloak'd" would've fixed some naming issues
14:37	Jarda	it's not my project
14:37	Jarda	something I catched up on the internets
14:37	TimMc	stompyj: My dream: Press a button to spin up all the dependencies of a service, configured to point to each other, built from the branches I specify.
14:38	TimMc	Yes, it would be server-expensive and possibly slow, but imagine how much less frustrating it could be.
14:38	stompyj	TimMc: yeah, so if you have a box that can handle multiple vms, then vagrant can do that for you today (this is how we're doing things)
14:39	stompyj	TimMc: Once docker integration happens, then you should be able to do all that from one vm, so it would be even more lightweight
14:39	TimMc	stompyj: This would require projects to know/report their dependencies in a way that a VM manager could use.
14:40	noonian	i tried something like that using pallet but i didn't finish it
14:41	hiredman	pallet is such a yak shave
14:42	mercwithamouth	what's the best way to start up a compojure app from lighttables instarepl?
14:42	mercwithamouth	in emacs i can just jump right into the project.repl namespace and start server...not so with light table.
14:42	mikerod	Are there any certain things to look out for that would hurt compilation performance in Clojure on JVM?
14:43	tbaldridge	mikerod: don't query a server on the moon from inside a macro?
14:43	mikerod	Such as, does compilation slow down when there are a lot of reflection warnings/lack of type hints vs many type hints
14:43	hyPiRion	I would avoid doing (while true) outside defns and defmacros
14:43	mikerod	tbaldridge: well, that is certainly one good piece of advice :P
14:43	stompyj	TimMc: did you mean with docker? or just with vagrant? with pure vagrant we just use chef to configure each box as needed. it's the same chef scripts we use to build production boxes on ec2
14:43	seancribbs	dnolen: but i can still create components that have their own state, right? like, for instance i need a dropdown in this one place that will have some local/transient state
14:44	mikerod	ok, so slow macros
14:44	mikerod	and infinite looping top-level forms
14:44	dnolen	seancribbs: yes, om/get-state om/set-state! take the owner and allow this.
14:44	tbaldridge	mikerod: seriously though, I've only seen slower compilation when doing really heavy code transformations. The core compiler is super fast
14:45	seancribbs	ok, maybe I'm more confused now than before, hah. i just need to poke at it
14:45	mikerod	tbaldridge: I see. The reason I ask, is currently we have an jar artifact being distributed over a MapReduce cluster that is not compiled.
14:45	dnolen	seancribbs: the Om separates app-state (kind of like your DB/model in traditional design) from component local state (transient stuff)
14:45	hiredman	our big app at work takes a minute or two to load and compile
14:45	mikerod	so this will be compiled dynamically on each of the nodes. we are probably goign to move to AOT compiling it
14:46	seancribbs	so om/set-state! changes the props on the local component
14:46	seancribbs	?
14:46	mikerod	I've experienced a few minute build times by changing a project to AOT-compiled
14:46	dnolen	seancribbs: no the component local state
14:46	mikerod	few minute build-time increases
14:46	dnolen	seancribbs: props come from the app state, only way to change that is via transact!
14:47	seancribbs	so, if i want to say "show this dropdown", i have to put something in the app state
14:47	TimMc	stompyj: Yeah, first we'll have to get a uniform build system for all these services.
14:47	seancribbs	that seems like mixing concerns
14:47	TimMc	build/deployment
14:47	dnolen	seancribbs: no, you can do that with component local state
14:47	dnolen	seancribbs: they are intentional separated for this reason
14:47	seancribbs	ok, then we're on the same page
14:47	seancribbs	i think
14:48	stompyj	Yeah, that's definitely the trick. Getting buy in can be hard, because it's hard to quantity this stuff. But once you get it working, you wonder what the hell you were thinking beforehand
14:48	dnolen	seancribbs: we actually don't venture too far from the high level React model
14:48	stompyj	Just like working with mutable data structures :)
14:48	dnolen	seancribbs: components get their basic data (props) from app state, just like reading that stuff of out of a DB
14:48	dnolen	seancribbs: if you a component needs to change something in the app state (DB) you need to transact!
14:49	seancribbs	sure, like the items i want to put in that dropdown will be app state
14:49	dnolen	seancribbs: for transient stuff, local component state is enough, om/set-state!
14:49	dnolen	seancribbs: exactly
14:49	seancribbs	cool, now i think i have the separation
14:50	seancribbs	i like the idea of the UI being a set of functions over the app state
14:50	seancribbs	so much easier to reason about
14:50	seancribbs	just hard to break myself out of the MVC junk
14:50	bbloom	ibdknox: you there?
14:51	dnolen	seancribbs: yes I much prefer this. Not yet set on the names for the functions so I haven't committed to documenting what's there yet in a more visible fashion.
14:51	dnolen	seancribbs: also as people use it getting a clearer picture of what's needed
14:51	seancribbs	cool. hopefully this experiment of mine can result in some feedback
14:51	TimMc	dnolen: So this is like data state vs. ui state?
14:52	dnolen	TimMc: precisely
14:52	TimMc	Sweet!
14:52	TimMc	I have to take a look at this, that problem has been bothering me for a while.
14:52	dnolen	TimMc: and the separation is even more important in Om because we render on request animation frame. So in transact! you need to be careful.
14:52	dnolen	TimMc: you need to check your assumptions
14:53	TimMc	boy do I ever
14:53	dnolen	TimMc: but even om/set-state! is better than what you normally get
14:53	dnolen	TimMc: every component can see it's current local state and what it will become
14:53	dnolen	mutation that doesn't suck
14:54	dnolen	same as React here
14:54	TimMc	like the Kwisatz Haderach
14:54	seancribbs	lol
14:56	seancribbs	the nice thing about the app I'm doing is that all data that is loaded from the server is immutable anyway. you can only add new things
14:57	seancribbs	by "you" i mean some external process
14:57	dnolen	seancribbs: fwiw, the main advantage in the Om model over React is faster defaults and simple model for access to app state history - if you don't really need/want this then plain React works great.
14:58	seancribbs	dnolen: well, redraws are a real problem in this app, mostly because of medium-sized (read thousands) of data items
14:58	dnolen	seancribbs: like 10,000? is this in a giant list?
14:59	seancribbs	it's somewhat tree-like
14:59	seancribbs	the main drag is taking ~1000 items, slicing it into a N-level index and then displaying that as a table
15:00	dnolen	seancribbs: tree-like will be better, React does not yet provide the hooks required for truly fast rendering of very large lists
15:00	dnolen	and thus nor do we
15:00	dnolen	"truly fast re-rendering"
15:00	seancribbs	yeah, well i need to compute the matrix, heh
15:00	seancribbs	but Ember drags with that many bindings
15:00	seancribbs	where it's really not necessary
15:02	dnolen	seancribbs: so does the server give the client a delta or something?
15:02	seancribbs	eventually we'll probably hook up EventSource
15:02	seancribbs	but that is turned off for right now
15:02	seancribbs	so yeah, potentially new information can be added
15:03	dnolen	seancribbs: then what exactly are you re-rendering? Are you just sending down all the new data?
15:03	seancribbs	different subsets of the data
15:03	dnolen	seancribbs: and you just mutate the part of the data that changed?
15:03	seancribbs	err, sub-"trees"
15:04	seancribbs	better if i just show you, hah
15:04	seancribbs	http://giddyup.basho.com (click riak_ee, then one of the dropdowns under 2.0.0)
15:06	dnolen	seancribbs: wow ouch, locked up my browser had to restart
15:07	seancribbs	yep
15:07	seancribbs	ETOOMANYBINDINGS
15:07	seancribbs	Safari is quite snappy on it actually
15:08	dnolen	seancribbs: yeah Safari seems significantly faster when it comes to DOM ops than Chrome it seems.
15:09	seancribbs	so my guess is, tell me if i'm off base here... Ember is delaying those DOM updates to the end of the run loop, but not doing them in one batch
15:09	seancribbs	and it's a complicated tree of templates there
15:12	dnolen	seancribbs: hrm I really can't say, I don't know Ember, but the UI doesn't seem very complicated to me and that seems crazy slow.
15:12	seancribbs	yeah
15:12	seancribbs	easy vs. simple
15:12	seancribbs	Ember was easy, but is complex
15:13	seancribbs	and honestly its latest incarnation is grating me, as much as I like Tom and Yehuda it's just too hard to debug
15:14	dnolen	seancribbs: I suspect you could solve most of your issues w/ just React, nothing here much warrants Om unless you really want to use ClojureScript :)
15:15	seancribbs	cool, I might just start with that, but perhaps come back for the core.async
15:15	seancribbs	:D
15:24	bitemyapp	seancribbs: Ember wasn't even easy anyway.
15:25	bitemyapp	unless you'd spent a fair amount of time immersed in it.
15:25	seancribbs	bitemyapp: fair. "easy" if you're used to railsy things
15:27	seancribbs	never said "easy" was good
15:27	seancribbs	:-p
15:27	bitemyapp	seancribbs: I mostly went CL -> Python -> Clojure -> hs, not much interest in Rails/Ruby except when I was forced to dive into it periodically.
15:28	seancribbs	yeah it was more like, we knew some Ember already when we did this app, it was quick to get going
15:28	seancribbs	we were on a deadline
15:28	seancribbs	now it's just tech debt
15:28	seancribbs	and it's not our core thing, just a tool we use
15:28	seancribbs	so it doesn't get updated that often
15:34	bitemyapp	always regrettable.
15:34	bitemyapp	seancribbs: the only times I've been happy with that sort of stuff in recent memory has been when I was using cljs or fay with the vanilla DOM API, or Angular.
15:35	seancribbs	bitemyapp: shrug. going to try plain react.js and see if i can't speed this sucker up
15:36	bitemyapp	seancribbs: sure, I haven't tried React myself yet.
15:40	arrdem	$mail ambrosebs thinking about giving a c.c.t talk at c/w?
15:40	lazybot	Message saved.
15:41	bitemyapp	arrdem: that would incentivize me to go to c/w.
15:41	arrdem	bitemyapp: if I can prove that either ambrose or bronsa will be at c/w I can get the department to pay for flying me out :P
15:42	arrdem	bitemyapp: so I'm not entirely unbiased.
15:43	bitemyapp	Makes sense.
15:48	bitemyapp	arrdem: having looked at LightTable's code, beyond the fact that c.c.t isn't really JS ready, I can see why it isn't likely to be used.
15:48	bitemyapp	a lot of the editor is uni-typed objects stored globally with some metadata tags and the like.
15:49	bitemyapp	primary irritation is non-hackability at runtime.
15:51	saint_cypher	I have a friend question https://gist.github.com/rjspotter/8362283
16:05	noonian	saint_cypher: for one thing, ::users/user should just be :users/user
16:06	bitemyapp	,::user
16:06	clojurebot	:sandbox/user
16:06	noonian	using two colons with a keyword expands out to the namespace qualified one, so ::user (in the users ns) would expand to :users/user
16:06	bitemyapp	,:user
16:06	clojurebot	:user
16:07	noonian	,::sandbox/user
16:07	clojurebot	:sandbox/user
16:07	noonian	,::users/user
16:07	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: ::users/user>
16:10	kristof	Here's a heretical question.
16:10	kristof	Is the STM system an actor?
16:10	kristof	Or rather, would it be useful to think of it as one?
16:11	tbaldridge	kristof: no, it's more like a managed lock system
16:12	kristof	tbaldridge: Oh, you're the core.async guy. I've watched all the videos I can (that you've released), and I think it's all great stuff :)
16:12	tbaldridge	kristof: thanks!
16:12	kristof	Goroutines in general seem like magic, ha
16:12	stuartsierra	[org.clojure/data.json "0.2.4"] and [org.clojure/java.classpath "0.2.2"] are in the Maven Central repo now.
16:13	kristof	I'm just mostly impressed with the way the go macro deep walks a bunch of code and sets up a state machine accordingly
16:13	kristof	tbaldridge: Question, is there only one STM per running clojure process?
16:13	stompyj	bitemyapp: you're saying you think light table isn't likely to be used? (sorry, only read half the convo)
16:15	tbaldridge	kristof: not really. The way STM works is a lot like locks are used in any Java program. But in STM threads can "barge" locks. So one thread locks the refs it needs, does its work, and then only commits if someone else hasn't barged the locks. If there's a barge then the thread drops all its work and retries.
16:17	saint_cypher	noonian: thanks.
16:18	noonian	saint_cypher: np, other than that i'm not shure whats going on, you might need to make sure you are calling authenticate in your middleware
16:18	kristof	tbaldridge: Oh, I think I understand now. So you can concurrently access two refs and commit to both of those at the same time if they're not the same ref, right?
16:18	tbaldridge	kristof: *if they're not in the same transaction
16:20	kristof	Ok, that makes sense.
16:20	tbaldridge	kristof: but yes, that's the general idea. Although I was surprised to find how little I need STM. Actually I can't think of a single time I've used it and didn't refactor it out later
16:20	tbaldridge	kristof: it's often much easier to put a hashmap in a single atom, or something like that.
16:20	mrhanky	i need some hints, i have a clojure script which calls (read-line) to read user input (the script realises a repl). i know want to port this to clojurescriot, so i defined a read-line myself. i use a javascript terminal (jq-console) to handle input/output. my (read-line) starts a new input prompt of jq-console, but my read-line returns a nil immediately and the script failes. how can i "block" the execution of my ported script until a
16:20	mrhanky	input is made?
16:20	kristof	tbaldridge: Under what circumstances do you find that you really need to coordinate and synchronize state changes?
16:21	kristof	I mean, I suppose you just answered that, but can you think of anything?
16:23	tbaldridge	that's the problem, I don't really use it much at all. And have rarely (never?) seen it in production code. Normally things are either async, and so core.async or agents are used. Or people just an atom with a hashmap. I think you might want refs if you have a number of refs, and enough threads that they are tripping over themselves during swap!
16:23	technomancy	I feel like refs would be a lot more useful outside the server-side context
16:23	tbaldridge	Although even then I'd be tempted to throw all the updates into a core.async channel and serialize them. So yeah, I wonder sometimes if refs aren't superseded by core.async.
16:24	technomancy	because you're more likely to be able to fit everything in one process
16:24	arohner	tbaldridge: I find refs are superseded by my DB more than core.async
16:24	arohner	I almost never want to transact on something that I don't want written to disk
16:25	amalloy	mrhanky: javascript is single-threaded, so a blocking approach won't work. you have to switch to a callback mechanism, either by hand or using core.async
16:25	tbaldridge	arohner: yeah, that too. Esp if you use Datomic.
16:25	arohner	yup
16:25	mrhanky	amackera, yeah, i just came accross core.async
16:25	mrhanky	* amalloy
16:25	kristof	arohner: the point of datomic was to really run in memory and only commit to disk occasionally, wasn't it?
16:25	stcredzero	What would be the best way to do server push from clojure to a clojurescript client? (Could also be js client)
16:25	arohner	kristof: I don't think I'm qualified to comment on that, given other people in the channel, but IMO no
16:25	tbaldridge	kristof: no in server mode all data is always written to disk.
16:26	kristof	ok.
16:26	tbaldridge	kristof: there is a memory only mode for Datomic however.
16:26	hansel-han	is there any reason to use a default location like /var/www/example.com/public_html instead of just ~/public_html?
16:26	kristof	tbaldridge: Hand-wavey question. Is Cognitect an exciting place to be at? :)
16:27	ToBeReplaced	stcredzero: you have a ton of options... i would decide which web technology you want first (SSE, websockets, other)
16:28	tbaldridge	kristof: no. it's horrible. They make us work on open source projects sometimes, and I have to program in Clojure all day.
16:28	arohner	:-)
16:28	stcredzero	ToBeReplaced: I'm writing a game with as thin a client as possible, but still needs to be responsive. It's a roguelike, so all it does is pass keypresses to the server and displays a 80x24 ascii grid.
16:28	tbaldridge	kristof: ofcourse! I love it.
16:29	kristof	:)
16:29	wink	> Chinese spy manages to steal last 50MB of Lisp program governing U.S. missile launches. Fortunately, it was all closing parentheses.
16:29	wink	best lisp joke I heard in months :D
16:29	stcredzero	ToBeReplaced: I also would de-prioritize browser compatibility.
16:30	ToBeReplaced	tbaldridge: core.async eliminated the clojure concurrency primitives altogether for us -- we store application states in "system" variables with control channels and go loops -- feels great
16:30	bitemyapp	tbaldridge: I'm with arohner on refs/core.async/dbs
16:31	bitemyapp	tbaldridge: refs are superseded by Datomic :)
16:31	locks	has anyone implemented a card game? I only got to https://github.com/locks/sueca/blob/master/src/sueca/core.clj before getting coder’s block. my brain has a hard time thinking clojure still
16:31	bitemyapp	arohner: how have you been?
16:31	arohner	good. busy
16:31	bbloom	locks: stuartsierra has a good talk about a poker game in clj
16:31	arohner	still not on datomic yet
16:31	arohner	:-P
16:31	bbloom	locks: well, it's more about working with data, but he uses a poker example
16:31	ToBeReplaced	stcredzero: since you have back and forth, i would consider something like https://github.com/lynaghk/jetty7-websockets-async
16:32	tbaldridge	ToBeReplaced: bud don't you loose instant deref with that?
16:32	arohner	it's amazing how many things there are to do, that aren't the things you want to work on
16:32	bbloom	locks: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Thinking-in-Data
16:32	bitemyapp	arohner: I didn't figure you were. I've assumed that when you were ready to test a migration, you'd do something with berossus first.
16:32	bitemyapp	arohner: sorry, brambling.
16:32	tbaldridge	*but
16:32	bitemyapp	I keep naming all my projects with the letter b and it's causing me to scramble them a bit.
16:32	ToBeReplaced	tbaldridge: explain?
16:32	arohner	bitemyapp: is the story on datomic migrations any better yet?
16:32	locks	bbloom: yeah, I even tweeted at him thanking, but it’s pretty thin on the main “run loop” and code
16:33	bitemyapp	arohner: I'm still the only show in town.
16:33	arohner	might be a good post to the newsgroup
16:33	locks	bbloom: I did learn some useful things from his talk
16:33	bitemyapp	arohner: and I'm still open to incremental/differential migrations.
16:33	bitemyapp	arohner: but, my workplace hasn't needed it yet, so I haven't implemented it yet because my at-home projects are Haskell right now.
16:33	tbaldridge	ToBeReplaced: you said you're storing app state as locals inside gos. How does one go get access to the data inside another go?
16:33	arrdem	bitemyapp: I think that the lack of cljx support is important, but I think that there are major usability concerns that need to come first.
16:33	arohner	bitemyapp: Circle has never had planned downtime, so I don't plan on starting now :-)
16:34	bbloom	locks: just takes some practice. start by trying to figure out what operations you need & what the data structures need to look like to support those operations
16:34	bitemyapp	arohner: part of the reason I am holding off on incremental migrations is that I want a second pair of eyes on Brambling.
16:34	ToBeReplaced	tbaldridge: control channels -- the go loops alt and look for requests of "where am i at?"
16:34	arrdem	bitemyapp: and yes. writing programs in top type isn't condusive to using a more restrictive system.
16:34	ToBeReplaced	tbaldridge: might be a bit clunky... first forays into CSP
16:35	bitemyapp	arrdem: but it was a clever way to defeat static analysis.
16:35	bitemyapp	arrdem: if that was ibdknox's intent :)
16:35	locks	bbloom: I’ll keep at it, thanks
16:35	arrdem	bitemyapp: :/ on an open project? doubtful, but possible.
16:35	bitemyapp	arohner: I don't want to implement incremental migrations myself and then tell startups/businesses, "ya sure, trust this with your data" unless at least one other reasonably competent person has given it a look over.
16:35	bitemyapp	arohner: I was being facetious.
16:35	bitemyapp	errr
16:35	bitemyapp	arrdem: I was being facetious.
16:36	bitemyapp	arohner: if the ROI on switching to Datomic isn't worth poking at a migration tool then it's probably not yet time to make the switch anyway.
16:37	stcredzero	ToBeReplaced: Thanks! That looks just beautiful!
16:37	arohner	bitemyapp: it's time, but I haven't heard a strategy, even in theory, to get schema migrations yet
16:37	arohner	also, it's been time for a while, but we can never find the bandwidth
16:38	bitemyapp	arohner: there already is a way to do arbitrary schema migrations with Brambling, do you mean in-place
16:39	bitemyapp	add a ? to the end of that.
16:39	arohner	in-place isn't a strict requirement, but zero downtime and no races is
16:39	arohner	so migrate into a second DB, but then you need to handle the switchover
16:39	bitemyapp	I'm not sure where a data race with Brambling would happen.
16:40	bitemyapp	arohner: the only Datomic support schema changes that are likely to be supported in the near future are the adding (removal?) of indexes and possibly uni-directional cardinality promotion.
16:40	arohner	(I don't mean brambling needs to handle this, I mean I need to understand how my code would work)
16:40	bitemyapp	zero downtime depends on how abstracted your applications are from Datomic.
16:40	arohner	bitemyapp: at time t1, all peers are on database d1. you migrate to d2. Then you need to switch all peers over to d2, and make sure all in-flight writes appear on d2
16:40	bitemyapp	it goes back to whether or not you can down a clean hand-off with a query queue.
16:41	bitemyapp	that's how you avoid races and downtime, at least as a first pass.
16:41	bitemyapp	can do*
16:41	arohner	also, duplicating the data size just to do a migration :-(
16:42	bitemyapp	arohner: if your applications are calling your database directly, that's not good. You need a middleware layer / queue like larger services.
16:42	bitemyapp	the middleware layer / queue makes the hand-off safe and prevents any lost transactions.
16:42	arohner	it still sounds like there's a race there
16:42	ToBeReplaced	tbaldridge: i'd also appreciate critique if there's something clearly funky with that approach -- it's true that we don't get instant deref b/c you have to wait for the go block to alt again. It might make more sense to just have each block update an atom to deref against. however, we need (or think we need) the control channels anyway so it didn't seem awful
16:42	bitemyapp	arohner: I don't think so, the queue/middleware layer is pausing for the length of the final migration.
16:43	bitemyapp	arohner: but the reason for incremental migrations is to make that final migration VERY short
16:43	bitemyapp	like, not detectable by your users.
16:43	bitemyapp	I thought I'd explained all this before.
16:43	arohner	sorry, it's been a while
16:43	arohner	where the final migration is incremental, over the time since the 'full' migration finished?
16:43	bitemyapp	the only real source of delay would be long running transactions/queries.
16:44	bitemyapp	arohner: it's zeno's paradox type thing.
16:44	tbaldridge	ToBeReplaced: yeah, it depends on the app. But as a whole that's one of the issues with actor systems. The actor can get backed up, and then it can't be deref'd. But YMMV.
16:44	bitemyapp	arohner: you're incrementally catching up the destination to the origin over and over until the differential is so small that a final migration should take no time at all.
16:44	arohner	right
16:44	bitemyapp	arohner: then for that final migration, you bring the hammer down in your middleware/queue to hold the boat, let things wrap up, then flip over.
16:45	bitemyapp	my only real complaint is the data duplication, but I don't think it's expensive at your scale, especially if you're using EC2.
16:46	ToBeReplaced	tbaldridge: was your comment earlier that you're finding that you're not shipping refs anymore, only atoms (and agents?)
16:46	arohner	tbaldridge: any hope on this stuff (zero downtime schema migrations w/ datomic) getting easier? :-)
16:46	bitemyapp	from there you can do a differential archive of the contents of the origin/old database against some archival instance and then kill 'em off.
16:46	arohner	bitemyapp: I worry more about the pain-in-the-ass factor than the cost
16:46	arohner	(though cost does matter some)
16:46	bitemyapp	arohner: I've been bugging Cognitect about it, what I mentioned earlier is the only thing they've explicitly said they'd be comfortable doing.
16:47	bitemyapp	arohner: I don't worry about the cost arising from the data duplication, just the operational ick.
16:47	tbaldridge	arohner: I'd ask bobby or stuart in #datomic. They are more qualified (and authorized) to speak to that.
16:48	arohner	tbaldridge: thanks. Which stuart? :-)
16:48	bitemyapp	arohner: probably the dude with the rock star hair.
16:48	tbaldridge	arohner: stuart h works full time on Datomic. Bobby specializes in customer relations for datomic.
16:49	bitemyapp	Bobby's almost always the one answering my questions.
16:49	bitemyapp	Halloway's accidentally responded once I think.
16:49	bitemyapp	tbaldridge: neither seem to be in the channel though.
16:50	bitemyapp	and I'm loathe to file a ticket for something I'd already asked them about in the past.
16:57	logic_prog	why are nested #( ... % ... ) 's not allowed?
16:57	logic_prog	why not have % bound to the nearest # ?
16:57	tbaldridge	logic_prog: that would be super easy to get wrong
16:58	tbaldridge	and #(%) is just gross anyways (imo)
16:58	ucb	bitemyapp: !
16:59	amalloy	(map #(map #(map #(+ % %) %) %) xs) doesn't read super-well
16:59	TimMc	tbaldridge: Nonsense, where would swearjure even be without it?
17:00	bitemyapp	ucb: I sent you a lot of music.
17:00	ucb	bitemyapp: I saw my name highlighted but lost the backlog :'(
17:00	bitemyapp	muh lord.
17:01	bitemyapp	ucb: http://kasperrosa.bandcamp.com/track/coronal-mass-ejection http://dumbsaint.bandcamp.com/album/something-that-you-feel-will-find-its-own-form
17:01	ucb	muh limechat.
17:01	bitemyapp	this is why I am civilized and use a persistent IRC session.
17:02	ucb	thanks!
17:02	bitemyapp	ucb: and https://soundcloud.com/you-are-not-cat/tangled-up-in-clouds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ1wsf7tAE0
17:02	ucb	me too, but limechat is a piece of gunk
17:02	bitemyapp	ucb: last one comes by way of akurilin. post-punk'ish hardcorey stuff. good.
17:02	ucb	cool!
17:03	TimMc	bitemyapp: Do you have somethign set up that collects all your highlights in another file?
17:03	TimMc	If I forget to /away, it's really annoying to figure out where a highlight came from when I get back.
17:03	rasmusto	hilite for irssi is kewl
17:03	bitemyapp	TimMc: I just have logs.
17:03	bitemyapp	TimMc: and /lastlog
17:03	TimMc	Fair.
17:04	bitemyapp	TimMc: arrdem's setup is even better, he gets a phone jingle.
17:04	TimMc	I highlight on more than just my nick, though.
17:04	bitemyapp	TimMc: be sure to use this knowledge for evil liek I do.
17:04	bitemyapp	like*
17:04	bitemyapp	I don't highlight on anything but my name. Nobody talks about my libraries.
17:04	bitemyapp	except occasionally on the mailing lists.
17:04	bitemyapp	s/occasionally/rarely/g
17:05	bitemyapp	ucb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzMeU8tuvNE
17:05	mikerod	Why is the type hierarchy of Clojure functions so... big?
17:06	bitemyapp	mikerod: I mean, it's not Spring Framework.
17:06	mikerod	AFunction, AFn, IFn, Fn
17:06	mikerod	wat
17:06	bitemyapp	mikerod: have you ever tried to make something nice in Java?
17:07	mikerod	bitemyapp: haha, ok I guess that is a fair enough explanation
17:07	bitemyapp	mikerod: Clojure's implementation is pretty solid at the ground floor, IMHO.
17:08	locks	what about clojure on CLR :P
17:08	bbloom	mikerod: IFn is for things that can be called like functions. AFn is used internally to deal with some ugly java crap about variadics via implementation inheritence, Fn is a marker interface for saying "this is a real function", and AFunction is the implementation of Fn
17:08	bitemyapp	mikerod: you don't want to roll all this stuff into a single class.
17:10	rasmusto	everything is a class, a class is everything
17:10	mikerod	bbloom: that is a good explanation of these things that I certainly haven't heard befor
17:11	mikerod	before*
17:11	bbloom	mikerod: all you really need to know as a user is that there is clojure.core/ifn? and clojure.core/fn?
17:11	mikerod	bitemyapp: I know that smaller, composable interfaces (abstractions) are favorable to monolithic ones; especially in the Clojure core
17:11	bbloom	mikerod: implementation wise, you've also overlooked RestFn and a few other things
17:12	bbloom	that's the point of AFn and Fn. AFn lets all the concrete impls share stuff and Fn lets you do fast testing against an interface for clojure.core/fn?
17:12	bbloom	but maps and vectors and things are not functions, they can only be called LIKE functions, hence ifn?
17:15	bitemyapp	ucb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efsUakRY2IQ
17:16	ucb	bitemyapp: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_G3UsM0D6aA
17:16	bitemyapp	bbloom: do you listen to music while coding?
17:17	Raynes	Who doesn't?
17:18	ucb	+1
17:18	Raynes	bbloom jams out to Grimes while he codes.
17:18	Raynes	Not the band, podcasts featuring me.
17:18	bitemyapp	ucb: surf doom?
17:18	bitemyapp	Raynes: that chick is spooky yo/
17:18	ucb	bitemyapp: never heard of it
17:18	egghead	lol
17:18	egghead	grimes while devvin
17:18	bitemyapp	ucb: that's how I'm describing what you sent me.
17:18	egghead	I've been listening to lee bannons new album while devvin
17:18	ucb	bitemyapp: oh! heh. Never had somebody refer to The Coral as surf doom :)
17:19	bitemyapp	ucb: s'what it sounds like.
17:19	bitemyapp	I should write a thesis on genre bucketing.
17:19	Raynes	I listen to recordings of bitemyapp played at 0.5x speed
17:19	egghead	is anthony grimes a member of the band grimes???
17:19	lazybot	egghead: Yes, 100% for sure.
17:19	egghead	ty lazybot
17:19	Raynes	egghead: I wish :(
17:19	bitemyapp	that would be hella cool if it was true.
17:19	Raynes	Screw programming, music is my passion.
17:19	Raynes	That's not true, but I am a wannabe singer. <3
17:20	egghead	we can start a band Raynes
17:20	egghead	we'll use overtone and livecode
17:20	Raynes	I'm down.
17:20	bitemyapp	I need to learn to play keyboard.
17:21	egghead	oh nice do you play keyboard? nah I play emacs
17:21	egghead	i'm sure we could get a gig at the echoplex those guys let anyone
17:23	mikerod	Looks like I lost my connection, thanks for the IFn and Fn family explanations
17:23	mikerod	I feel a little more at ease on it now
17:26	stuartsierra	mikerod: I made a little utility to help visualize those class hierarchies https://github.com/stuartsierra/class-diagram
17:26	stuartsierra	And somewhere on the web is a giant diagram of all the Clojure classes/interfaces.
17:27	mikerod	stuartsierra: Oh, I forgot I came across this I think a while back. This is definitely useful.
17:27	dnolen	https://raw2.github.com/Chouser/clojure-classes/master/graph-w-legend.png
17:28	stuartsierra	that's it
17:28	mikerod	awesome to both
17:33	locks	wait, Clojure has classes?
17:33	locks	I’ve been lied to
17:33	locks	:P
17:37	hyPiRion	:gen-class man
17:37	logic_prog	in core.async, is there a way to say : create a new channel by (1) taking everything from chan1, then (2) take everything from chan2?
17:37	logic_prog	basically, I want a way to concat two chans
17:46	AeroNotix	is there anything like `doto' which returns the value of the last form?
17:47	bbloom	AeroNotix: not precisely, but there is .. which is for chaining style, like if you have a "fluent" builder or something from java land
17:47	bbloom	(doc ..)
17:47	clojurebot	"([x form] [x form & more]); form => fieldName-symbol or (instanceMethodName-symbol args*) Expands into a member access (.) of the first member on the first argument, followed by the next member on the result, etc. For instance: (.. System (getProperties) (get \"os.name\")) expands to: (. (. System (getProperties)) (get \"os.name\")) but is easier to write, read, and understand."
17:48	AeroNotix	bbloom: that's different
17:48	bbloom	AeroNotix: i'm aware. hence i said "not precisely"
17:48	AeroNotix	oke doke
17:49	bbloom	was just guessing, since that's a popular thing in java libs for functions that always return "this"
17:49	AeroNotix	I can write a macro for this (most likely just copying the majority of doto)
17:49	AeroNotix	any reasoning why doto returns the original value?
17:49	AeroNotix	(doc doto)
17:49	clojurebot	"([x & forms]); Evaluates x then calls all of the methods and functions with the value of x supplied at the front of the given arguments. The forms are evaluated in order. Returns x. (doto (new java.util.HashMap) (.put \"a\" 1) (.put \"b\" 2))"
17:49	AeroNotix	returns x
17:49	AeroNotix	L
17:50	bbloom	AeroNotix: it returns the original b/c you're presumably mutating it and then want it
17:50	bbloom	AeroNotix: i wouldn't copy doto, i'd delegate to it
17:50	AeroNotix	hmm, indeed. Could be a reason
17:50	justin_smith	if you want the last result, you can use -> or ->> instead of doto, which assume functinoal rather than mutational chaining
17:50	AeroNotix	justin_smith: but it doesn't work if the functions are mutating a java object, instead of returning values
17:50	noonian	just make sure your calls return compatible values
17:51	AeroNotix	It's not my Java code
17:51	nhjk	noob question, but is it worth it to learn some java because clojure is based on the jvm?
17:51	AeroNotix	nhjk: somewhat, I've found
17:51	stuartsierra	logic_prog: maybe something like this (totally untested) https://gist.github.com/stuartsierra/8364220
17:51	AeroNotix	you'll be exposed to it. Namely things like how java organizes code
17:51	AeroNotix	and a lot of useful stuff is in the java stdlib
17:51	technomancy	nhjk: you need to learn to read it eventually, but learning to write it is a waste of time
17:52	justin_smith	learning java is meh I think, but knowing enough so you can read javadoc and do interop? definitely
17:52	AeroNotix	exactly
17:52	logic_prog	staurtsierra: noted, thanks!
17:52	AeroNotix	Just enough so you can read function signatures would be nice.
17:52	stuartsierra	logic_prog: just fixed to return `out`
17:53	AeroNotix	haha, I love going away from Clojure to Go, and then coming back to Clojuer
17:53	AeroNotix	Clojure*
17:53	justin_smith	the three java skills needed in clojure: jvm config / tuning / classpath; reading javadoc; reading stack traces
17:53	AeroNotix	Clojure stack traces are fugly, jus' sayin'
17:54	justin_smith	they are, but knowing how to read them is a must, for now
17:54	rasmusto	IFugly
17:54	stuartsierra	Whenever I hear that, I think "Compared to what?"
17:54	noonian	lol
17:54	AeroNotix	stuartsierra: some languages which don't include internal machinary
17:54	AeroNotix	in their stack traces
17:54	nhjk	alright thanks, I'm already familiar with the syntax because of an algorithms class, but I'll dive a little deeper!
17:54	stuartsierra	What language does that?
17:54	AeroNotix	There's references to things like `apply' interspersed with all my stuff.
17:54	nDuff	AeroNotix: ...and you can use available tools and libraries in Clojure to strip them out here.
17:54	technomancy	compared to nearly everything
17:54	nDuff	AeroNotix: ...if you're so inclined.
17:54	AeroNotix	nDuff: such as?
17:55	AeroNotix	I use emacs, probably cannot switch at this point.
17:55	nDuff	AeroNotix: clj-stracktrace, f'rinstance
17:55	technomancy	racket actually has different stack trace styles for its beginner languages vs its expert ones, which is brilliant
17:55	AeroNotix	stack traces to 11
17:55	mikerod	I don't really care if the stacktrace shows the Clojure internal functions being called. I don't see what is hard about finding the relevant code that causes the issue in that.
17:55	mikerod	The harder things are when it is a compiler-time error
17:55	technomancy	nDuff: clj-stacktrace doesn't actually remove any gunk
17:55	hiredman	what a pain it must be to debug things when the runtime is actively trying to hide things from you
17:55	nDuff	Ahh. I've seen stuff that did, but not paid much attention.
17:56	AeroNotix	nDuff: clj-stacktrace still includes crap in the trace
17:56	mikerod	The worst is when it is no-source-file eval-fns
17:56	nDuff	AeroNotix: As I said above, I've not paid much attention to those tools.
17:56	stuartsierra	^ What hiredman said.
17:56	AeroNotix	clojure.lang.RestFn.invoke, like what the hell does that need to be in the stack trace for
17:56	technomancy	hiredman: actively hiding stuff from you is what abstraction is all about
17:56	mikerod	^ to not hiding details of the stack
17:56	stuartsierra	I dunno, maybe because it was on the stack?
17:57	nDuff	AeroNotix: ...ahh, https://github.com/AvisoNovate/pretty was the more recent one
17:57	AeroNotix	stuartsierra: sure, but it's not anything that's to do with me, really. If you need that, it should be configurable
17:57	AeroNotix	stuartsierra: as in, some variable which you can set for stack trace verboseness
17:57	dnolen	AeroNotix: sigh it is configurable today, no one uses it
17:57	stuartsierra	What's next, configurable core dumps? Configurable segfaults?
17:57	stuartsierra	Configurable BSOD?
17:58	nDuff	AeroNotix: ...it's not filtering things, but it is using highlighting to distinguish
17:58	locks	I’d configure segfaults to —never
17:58	AeroNotix	nDuff: it's better
17:58	AeroNotix	dnolen: any docs?
17:58	dnolen	AeroNotix: you can get pretty stack traces since 1.3
17:58	AeroNotix	> any docs?
17:58	dnolen	AeroNotix: it the default behaior of clojure.repl/pst
17:58	dnolen	AeroNotix: pst has been doc forever
17:59	dnolen	doc'ed
17:59	technomancy	that's a pretty low bar for "pretty"
17:59	dnolen	technomancy: we've already discussed this like a million times :)
17:59	dnolen	clj-stacktrace is an abomination
17:59	stuartsierra	`psh` also conveniently hides the cause chain, breaking any attempt by a library designer to provide a useful error message.
17:59	stuartsierra	`pst`
17:59	dnolen	stuartsierra: I'm not condoning it by any means
17:59	technomancy	dnolen: everything is terrible; I agree there
18:00	bitemyapp	the complaining is partly why I stopped trying to improve clj-stacktrace.
18:00	stuartsierra	Just this week I had to hunt for an exception that clj-stacktrace swallowed.
18:00	bitemyapp	I went back to banging rocks together.
18:00	dnolen	but if people want to find out about stuff they'll eventually abandon, who am I to get in the way :D
18:00	technomancy	"Everything is great the way it is" just means we've lowered our standards
18:01	mikerod	what is clj-stacktrace, never heard of this one
18:01	AeroNotix	I guess eventually I'll just tune out the noise
18:01	stuartsierra	a pretty stacktrace is like a pretty autopsy.
18:01	mikerod	ohhh, yes I have
18:01	bitemyapp	mikerod: you are...so lucky I've sworn off lgtfy.
18:01	AeroNotix	stuartsierra: that's a terrible opinion :)
18:01	kristof	Especially with java stacktraces, hah.
18:01	kzar	dnolen: Going to have a look at om hopefully this weekend, is it ready for production stuff in your opinion?
18:01	stuartsierra	i.e. if it's pretty you're going to hide lots of important details
18:01	bitemyapp	stuartsierra: I think stacktraces can get cleaned up and bracketed without dropping information.
18:01	AeroNotix	stuartsierra: it's a post mortem on a sometimes critical part of your system. You need that information to contain what you need exactly.
18:01	bitemyapp	stacktraces wouldn't be so damn critical if we had sensible types.
18:01	stuartsierra	Yes, which is why it shouldn't hide anything.
18:01	mikerod	bitemyapp: hah I looked it up, stupid question
18:02	dnolen	technomancy: I think anyone who has done CLJ long enough likes verbose stack traces, as long as it's not deep in the compiler or the reader
18:02	kristof	bitemyapp: Oh? Why?
18:02	bitemyapp	logging/tracing is usually more valuable and semantically relevant than stacktraces.
18:02	technomancy	stuartsierra: so do you turn on GC logging too?
18:02	mikerod	I was thinking the discussion was of clojure.stacktrace
18:02	bitemyapp	kristof: source/sink distance on errors.
18:02	technomancy	wouldn't want to miss anything important
18:02	bitemyapp	kristof: if the compiler is catching 90% or more of the common-case stuff, then it's less often that you need to pick through a stacktrace.
18:02	dnolen	kzar: it's pre-alpha, things are going to change
18:03	dnolen	kzar: it's worth assessing, not building critical stuff on. Though that doesn't appear to be stopping anyone.
18:03	hyPiRion	There are some pretty good ideas and concepts in Racket, CLisp and Erlang on how to read stack traces and issues in programs.
18:03	technomancy	dnolen: so anyone who doesn't like it just hasn't been using clojure long enough? interesting.
18:03	bitemyapp	kristof: in the rare occasion when I need to look at a stacktrace in, say, Haskell it's because I had an unintentionally non-total pattern match.
18:03	hyPiRion	Even gdb/lldb would be good/valuable.
18:03	bitemyapp	kristof: it then tells me what value I failed to match, then I add the match.
18:03	dnolen	technomancy: I don't think that's all that weird
18:03	bitemyapp	kristof: source->sink distance: 0
18:03	kzar	OK good to know, still am intrigued enough to want to spend my weekend looking at it. Curious if it could replace AngularJS
18:03	technomancy	how many years does it take?
18:04	dnolen	technomancy: I once thought not being able to set locals was stupid
18:04	bitemyapp	kristof: source->sink distance of my average Clojure stacktrace? ohgod.jpg
18:04	technomancy	maybe two or three more years and the beauty will sink in
18:04	technomancy	and I'll stop being such a noob
18:04	bitemyapp	kristof: I would be willing to bet OCaml users have a similar experience.
18:04	stuartsierra	No one ever said they were beautiful.
18:04	dnolen	technomancy: it's not about pretty / not pretty
18:04	bitemyapp	there are ways to make stacktraces more readable/usable without dropping info.
18:04	mrcheeks	dnolen: 'completeness' of the stacktrace then?
18:05	dnolen	mrcheeks: not missing critical information
18:05	bitemyapp	If everybody agrees on that point then we can just discuss what those improvements could be.
18:06	bitemyapp	I'm pretty sure everybody understands stack-trace elision is a bad idea.
18:06	mikerod	mrcheeks: we want them the stacktrace to be both complete and sound
18:06	dnolen	what makes me laugh about all of this is that the main reason that CLJ stack traces are so noisy are precisely the same reasons that CLJS stack traces aren't
18:06	mikerod	:P
18:06	dnolen	decomplected compile/runtime
18:06	stuartsierra	I believe .printStackTrace is good enough, and every attempt I have seen to "improve" it ends up having subtle bugs that lose the original exception.
18:07	stuartsierra	s/subtle/edge case/
18:07	technomancy	stuartsierra: the only lib that's even attempted is a 3-year-old abandoned hack
18:07	technomancy	whose author ran off to write Google go code
18:08	justin_smith	locks: I once wrote a c program for win98, no segfaults is not a bonus
18:08	technomancy	hardly compelling
18:08	stuartsierra	There are 2 stack-trace printers in Clojure alone, `pst` and clojure.test.
18:08	justin_smith	the alternative to segfault is worse
18:08	bitemyapp	justin_smith: mmmm data corruption
18:08	stuartsierra	Regrettably I wrote one of them. I've learned my lesson.
18:08	technomancy	part of the reason no one tried picking that up is that chouser said he was going to do it
18:08	stuartsierra	And then decided it wasn't worth it.
18:10	technomancy	clojurebot: usability is not a big deal
18:10	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
18:10	Bronsa	arrdem: I'm afraid there's no way I'll be at clojure/west, San Francisco is a long way from Italy
18:13	supersym	facebook does their whole operation in mysql? ... those nr's kinda blow my mind
18:14	bitemyapp	supersym: no. It's not that simple.
18:14	arrdem	Bronsa: this doesn't especially surprise me :P
18:14	supersym	well they partition the whole thing ofc but still
18:14	arrdem	Bronsa: wish you could make it tho
18:14	bitemyapp	supersym: the messaging backend persistence layer is HBase (they hired a ton of ex-Yahoo! people). Some of their core persistence layer is MySQL.
18:14	supersym	yeah
18:14	bitemyapp	supersym: it's an inaccurate statement, there are many data stores at Facebook.
18:14	supersym	ok... I read that 90% doesn't scratch the db layer
18:15	supersym	caching mostly
18:15	bitemyapp	MySQL is their "primary" one in some sense, but sharded MySQL as facebook is a completely different animal than you might be thinking of.
18:15	bitemyapp	supersym: some of that is TAO, some of that is other things.
18:15	supersym	true in that sense, I must be my wording ;)
18:15	bitemyapp	supersym: they have an aggressive cache dependency graph built in TAO on top of memcached.
18:15	bitemyapp	if B depends on A, and A gets busted, B must be busted too.
18:16	supersym	I never heard of TAO... going to read up some on that
18:16	bitemyapp	supersym: their whole OLAP stack is Hadoop.
18:16	bitemyapp	only the core OLTP is the sharded MySQL, and realistically, most read requests are served by TAO/memcached if things are going well.
18:16	supersym	Its that I got involved with this magento shop now (they use this pretty advanced EAV setup) that I got to work with mysql again
18:17	supersym	but it really wants to make me stab my eyes out the whole PHP/HTML soup
18:17	bitemyapp	supersym: you do not want to model your backend stack based on anything Facebook does.
18:17	bitemyapp	Seriously. Don't.
18:18	supersym	bitemyapp: nah... purely noticed for the fact of it, and what can be done as 'nice to know'
18:18	bitemyapp	making your own EAV for an ecommerce site seems terribly unwise.
18:18	bitemyapp	if you really need EAV, there's always Datomic though.
18:18	supersym	nothing planned on that front, I was actually wondering if I couldn't do better clean slate with clojure and datomic :P
18:18	bitemyapp	clean slates are pretty risky.
18:19	bitemyapp	incremental migrations are better.
18:19	bitemyapp	pick off pieces of your stack and port a single component at a time.
18:19	supersym	my idea
18:19	supersym	yeah
18:19	bitemyapp	supersym: there are books on how to deal with legacy code-bases. Divide and conquer.
18:20	supersym	bitemyapp: thanks, I really do feel there is a case here but indeed, I should approach this from certain angle
18:20	supersym	got this experienced magento people to bring me up to speed so nice time to pick their brains on some stuff as well
18:22	supersym	luckily it isn't a huge site in terms of catalog size but still the amount of customization makes every upgrade a huge pain in the ass and those guys are running way way behind in production version already
18:22	supersym	takes about 50 hours after 1 or 2 trial runs, according to teh googles
18:22	bitemyapp	supersym: do you have any questions about Clojure?
18:24	supersym	well besides that I wonder in terms of components, my obvious picks would be hiccup, datomic, jetty or probably http-kit but then also styling using garden, compojure ofc, ring, friend probably would be a good one esp. since you've got online payments
18:25	bitemyapp	I use http-kit, Ring/Compojure, datomic, and selmer (instead of hiccup).
18:25	supersym	all in all a lot of dependencies... chopping it up would seperate those, yet since its still web based, I wonder if pedestal would be a option
18:25	bitemyapp	I avoid hiccup and friend. Garden depends on your frontend people.
18:25	supersym	its really single page apps I think
18:25	AeroNotix	What're people using for syntax checking in Emacs?
18:26	amalloy	syntax...checking? what would it check?
18:27	supersym	bitemyapp: ok I don't think I've used selmer (or have it register for that matter). Any particular reason for picking it over hiccup?
18:27	bitemyapp	Raynes: in Geidi Primes there are moments where she almost sounds like Kate Bush
18:27	technomancy	supersym: oh man, prepare for a rant
18:27	AeroNotix	amalloy: it would check if the syntax is valid clojure, what else?
18:27	AeroNotix	surely you understand this concept?
18:27	supersym	technomancy: lol
18:27	Raynes	bitemyapp: I've actually never even listened to Grimes before.
18:27	bitemyapp	Raynes: ZOMG
18:27	Raynes	I just knew the name because... we share it.
18:28	technomancy	this used to be like a weekly thing where bitemyapp would complain how terrible web dev in clojure was because he couldn't use hiccup for some reason
18:28	amalloy	AeroNotix: the only syntax that exists is (stuff), [stuff], {stuff}. write code with paredit, and it's impossible to write incorrect syntax
18:28	bitemyapp	technomancy: hiccup is awful.
18:28	AeroNotix	amalloy: sure. Sure. SURE!
18:28	technomancy	lies
18:28	hyPiRion	oh, here we go again
18:28	AeroNotix	amalloy: I'll get RIIIIGGGHt on that
18:28	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: don't fear the reaper.
18:28	bitemyapp	supersym: just use Selmer. The library speaks for itself.
18:28	AeroNotix	amalloy: and we both know that there are more invalid pieces of syntax, but whatevs.
18:28	AeroNotix	e.g.
18:29	bitemyapp	(invalid lel :lol
18:29	supersym	lol ok
18:29	bitemyapp	I think the compiler catches that.
18:29	technomancy	supersym: if you have a team of designers and folks that don't know clojure touching the views, hiccup is not a good fit
18:29	bitemyapp	supersym: that's not the only reason to use Selmer.
18:29	bitemyapp	supersym: it also narrows down the origin of template context to a single bottleneck
18:29	bitemyapp	supersym: makes it super easy to log template context and what caused this or that output
18:29	AeroNotix	,(let [m {:k :v}] (defn foo [{:keys [k] m}] k))
18:29	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Map literal must contain an even number of forms>
18:30	hyPiRion	AeroNotix: I just attempt to compile the file through cider/nrepl through C-c C-k. If it fails somewhere, there will be error lines explaining what failed
18:30	AeroNotix	amalloy: very simple error
18:30	bitemyapp	supersym: you can have m * n "connection points" between templates and your application in Hiccup. It's awful.
18:30	supersym	technomancy: no I guess I should use enlive for that
18:30	amalloy	yes, i should have written {stuff stuff}, not {stuff}
18:30	technomancy	supersym: ehrm... you can try that. it can be ... difficult.
18:31	bitemyapp	supersym: enlive is worse than hiccup.
18:31	bitemyapp	it's also horrifically slow.
18:31	technomancy	enlive code reads beautifully but when you go to modify it sometimes it can be difficult to know what to do
18:31	technomancy	it's not slow anymore
18:31	amalloy	seriously, clojure's syntax is so simple (it really is just lists vectors and maps), and its semantics so flexible (you can define macros that make anything syntactically valid be semantically meaningful), there's nothing for a syntax checker to do
18:31	supersym	right...well that really makes sense, it's the idea that it would be a more generic concept of e-commerce appliance in clojure but I guess once you venture into Clojure development, you are faced with tons of people who aren't
18:31	bitemyapp	technomancy: time to rerun my benchmark suite then.
18:32	bitemyapp	supersym: so use Selmer.
18:32	supersym	any freelance work I'd do in clojure and bet my ass people would come back cause it's hard to find developers ><
18:32	bitemyapp	there are a 1,001 reasons to use Selmer over Hiccup and you just named one of the better ones.
18:32	S11001001	&(-> (java.text.SimpleDateFormat. "MMM-dd-yyyy") (.format (java.util.Date.)))
18:32	lazybot	⇒ "Jan-10-2014"
18:32	amalloy	aside from run the compiler, as hyPiRion suggested, and then let you know if it broke
18:32	bitemyapp	S11001001: non-ISO format? Pagan.
18:33	bitemyapp	amalloy: I said that earlier :(
18:33	S11001001	bitemyapp: working specifically with UI-side
18:33	noonian	yeah, the biggest problem with Clojure is that most people hate lisps
18:33	bitemyapp	S11001001: ignore the mewling cries of weak humans and use the standard format.
18:34	hyPiRion	Someone sayin enlive is the best thing ever would bring so much joy into this channel.
18:34	locks	noonian: lisps are hard to understand (yes, I made that pun)
18:34	noonian	lol
18:34	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: why?
18:34	hyPiRion	bitemyapp: That was attempted irony.
18:36	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: Enlive just reinforces my hypothesis that francophones are from outer space.
18:36	supersym	haha...I'll give you that ;)
18:38	hyPiRion	bitemyapp: That's no problem, Clojure is my alien spacecraft anyway.
18:39	technomancy	http://www.lisperati.com/logo.html
18:41	bitemyapp	technomancy: almost seems quaint these days.
18:41	technomancy	it was quaint when it came out iirc
18:46	mikerod	lisp is only for real programmers, obviously
18:47	dnolen	noonian: considering how many people are in this channel these days, I don't know if any of the old complaints about Lisp really hold up.
18:49	noonian	i've just found it hard to get other people past it's syntax, i think it being a lisp is a strength for sure but many people don't want to invest the time to become comfortable with it
18:50	mikerod	noonian: it's "syntax" is one of the best part, is the irony
18:51	noonian	yep
18:51	mikerod	I can't type; is one of the best parts, that's the irony*
18:51	bitemyapp	noonian: really? I haven't had any trouble teaching it to Python programmers.
18:51	mikerod	Python people understand first-class functions
18:51	Tolstoy	People where I'm at (extremely traditional Java types) become interested as a result of a few of us writing "cool" apps with a simple build system and hardly any code (seemingly).
18:51	bitemyapp	noonian: on the rare occasion any of them say anything about syntax I give them a withering look that lets them know how shallow they are being and they clam right up.
18:51	Tolstoy	Trying to talk it up never works.
18:53	noonian	bitemyapp: my withering look must not be as effective as yours :P
18:53	bitemyapp	noonian: I am feared in three continents.
18:53	bitemyapp	noonian: the bamboo stick helps.
18:53	AeroNotix	At the moment I'm using Clojure because our Erlang application needs to interface with authorize.net and they provide only a SOAP interface. They also provide a Java SDK, so naturally, I'm leveraging that. Using my functional programming experience from Erlang to hopefully help with Clojure.
18:54	technomancy	AeroNotix: how are you finding that transition?
18:54	technomancy	my guess would be the language itself would be easy compared to the runtime
18:55	bitemyapp	Raynes: but seriously, listen to Grimes.
18:55	hiredman	if only erjang
18:55	AeroNotix	technomancy: fine. I "wrote" clojure a few years ago back when it first came out. I've also written Common Lisp for years
18:55	AeroNotix	hiredman: no
18:55	technomancy	but from what I can tell erlang doesn't have a lot of HOF usage going on, so that's pretty different
18:55	bitemyapp	hiredman: pls no
18:55	alew	bitemyapp: what do you think of crystal castles?
18:55	bitemyapp	technomancy: you can't "scale up" Erlang.
18:55	AeroNotix	bitemyapp: uhhh what?
18:55	Raynes	bitemyapp: Okay
18:55	AeroNotix	erlang scales incredibly well, it's kind of the point
18:55	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: I'm talking about FP, not distributed systems.
18:56	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: you can't really grow into high level FP in Erlang.
18:56	AeroNotix	Not sure what you mean there.
18:56	technomancy	bitemyapp: you mean build out new abstractions?
18:56	Raynes	bitemyapp: Apparently Gerard Way listens to Grimes :3
18:56	bitemyapp	technomancy: it's very difficult, yes.
18:56	AeroNotix	there are behaviours
18:56	bitemyapp	alew: not a fan. I think they're hacks. :(
18:56	technomancy	interesting word choice, but I see where you're coming from
18:56	AeroNotix	behaviours are kind of like Interfaces
18:56	bitemyapp	technomancy: Erlang code is generally 0 degrees removed, Clojure 1, Haskell...a lot more.
18:56	alew	bitemyapp: similar style to grimes imo
18:57	AeroNotix	and if you couple them with Dialyzer you get semi-static checking
18:57	bitemyapp	alew: I know who they are, I just avoid them.
18:57	bitemyapp	lol. semi-static checking. No.
18:57	AeroNotix	So yeah, you can write higher level abstractions like that
18:57	AeroNotix	bitemyapp: dialyzer is shit, but it helps
18:57	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: dialyzer is a linter on steroids, it doesn't make anything static and truly safe or sound.
18:57	AeroNotix	it's better than nothing
18:57	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: the point of a type system in FP is to help you scale your abstractions safely, Dialyzer cannot help you with that.
18:58	AeroNotix	Sure, it's no silver bullet. Dialyzer is shit, like I already said.
18:58	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: case in point, if you have a stack of monads Haskell can help you keep your code straight and correct. A comparable pattern in Erlang would be incomprehensible to Dialyzer.
18:58	AeroNotix	> Dialyzer is shit
18:58	AeroNotix	I already said this
18:58	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: stop. I'm making a broader point than Dialyzer.
18:58	alew	so enlive isn't a good choice when working with designers?
18:59	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: that's why you can't really extend yourself beyond simple HOFs in dynamic languages.
18:59	alew	seems better than selmer would be for that
18:59	bitemyapp	alew: it complects the functionality of your templates with your HTML and CSS. That's insane.
18:59	arrdem	bitemyapp: hiccup?
18:59	bitemyapp	If you don't have a type system to keep things clear and correct you can't really abstract your FP very much without making it very hard to write correct code.
19:00	dnolen	noonian: people will ignore syntax if you show them you write better/faster software
19:00	AeroNotix	You present a false dichotomy
19:00	bitemyapp	the point of the types isn't just correctness, it's leverage.
19:00	bitemyapp	arrdem: shush you.
19:00	AeroNotix	You can write perfectly correct code in dynamic languages, it's just harder to prove.
19:00	arrdem	bitemyapp: to that, nevar.
19:00	dnolen	noonian: you can't convince everyone, but for people who don't want to reason, can't do much for them anyway
19:01	AeroNotix	What is the comparable thing for Clojure, anyway? (re: dialyzer)
19:01	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: you're not disagreeing with what I just said.
19:01	alew	selmer builds in the template into the html and css, isn't that coupling them?
19:01	AeroNotix	bitemyapp: I'm just augmenting it to allow a wider definition
19:01	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: you're misunderstanding what I'm saying because you don't know the approaches I'm referring to.
19:01	dnolen	AeroNotix: nothing like dializyer, but you've got Typed Clojure
19:01	hyPiRion	AeroNotix: core.typed I guess
19:01	technomancy	AeroNotix: there's core.typed, but it doesn't have any of the inference functionality dialyzer has unfortunately
19:01	noonian	dnolen: right, people have to be willing to try something different
19:01	AeroNotix	dnolen: how well does that integrate with regular clojure?
19:02	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: the point is that things like map, filter, and reduce are nice, but you can do a lot better and further decomplect your implementations from your interfaces.
19:02	dnolen	AeroNotix: it designed to integrate with regular clojure
19:02	bitemyapp	core.typed is pretty ugly and won't really enable the patterns I'm talking about.
19:02	AeroNotix	dnolen: cool
19:02	dnolen	AeroNotix: some people already use it in production and seem to like it quite a bit
19:02	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: I think CircleCI uses c.c.t
19:02	dnolen	AeroNotix: ambrosebs is very reponsive and cranks on it
19:02	arrdem	AeroNotix: core.typed can be a pain, but it's a nice toolkit.
19:02	technomancy	AeroNotix: you still have to spec everything top-level, so it's a lot of work
19:02	AeroNotix	Haskell does provide some very interesting methods of providing really high level abstractions
19:03	AeroNotix	functors, applicative functors are some really light and easy abstractions that make so much sense it's untrue
19:03	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: it's not just about being high-level, it's about keeping things simple and separate in a way that makes sense.
19:03	AeroNotix	and they really make sense when creating your own types
19:04	bitemyapp	The point is that map and filter aren't the essence of FP. Nor are 1-degree-removed HOFs.
19:04	technomancy	AeroNotix: stop saying good things about haskell; he's trying to argue with you =)
19:05	AeroNotix	technomancy: oh I have plenty of disagreements with Haskell
19:05	AeroNotix	it's community being #1
19:05	kristof	There's no limit on the order you can write a higher order function in clojure
19:05	kristof	And map, filter, and first class functions are in fact the essence of some value of FP
19:05	technomancy	kristof: I've wondered what's the highest order of HOF ever seen in real-world code
19:05	technomancy	we should have a high-score board
19:06	kristof	technomancy: Doesn't matter, any good abstraction works for any degree-order
19:06	hyPiRion	technomancy: just apply some Y-combinators and get going?
19:06	bitemyapp	kristof: it turns into a tarpit pretty quickly.
19:06	bitemyapp	becomes hard to debug, hard to write correct code.
19:06	technomancy	swap!+update-in+conj+fnil seems like a good starting point
19:06	kristof	bitemyapp: I'd appreciate some actual examples. I'm not being combative, I'm really interested in what you're saying.
19:07	AeroNotix	Is there nothing out there (or even if this is a sane approach) which uses type annotations in Clojure to deduce (some value of) correctness?
19:07	bitemyapp	kristof: just learn Haskell. You'll figure it out in a hurry.
19:07	technomancy	I guess you still need one more as an arg to fnil
19:07	bitemyapp	there's no better way to understand my point.
19:07	bitemyapp	kristof: then try to take what you were doing in Haskell with functors/applicatives/monads and do them in Clojure.
19:07	kristof	bitemyapp: came to Clojure from some newbie use of Haskell
19:07	bitemyapp	kristof: then you'll realize you were standing on a sand castle.
19:07	technomancy	bitemyapp: are you seriously arguing that combo I refered to above is difficult to debug?
19:07	technomancy	or are you talking about something else entirely
19:08	kristof	bitemyapp: The "sand castle" has not yet been discovered.
19:08	bitemyapp	technomancy: something else.
19:08	bitemyapp	kristof: learn more Haskell.
19:08	bitemyapp	kristof: the epiphany probably didn't hit yet. It takes awhile.
19:08	AeroNotix	bitemyapp: you could easily write an applicative monad in Clojure, you just cannot prove it's correct.
19:08	AeroNotix	or at least typesafe
19:08	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: what exactly is an applicative monad?
19:08	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: do you mean an applicative functor?
19:08	AeroNotix	sorry yes
19:08	kristof	bitemyapp: I certainly plan on it but like I said, I'd really like an example of what you're talking about. The coolest example I can think of is the maybe monad.
19:09	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: and how easy do you think it's going to be to write correct code in terms of those abstract interfaces without chewing through a bunch of type errors?
19:09	AeroNotix	bitemyapp: quite. The abstraction is still 'there' though, right? At least I still see the value in writing code like that.
19:09	bitemyapp	kristof: that's not a great way to explain monads.
19:09	bitemyapp	kristof: Maybe/Some/Option is as much about algebraic data types as anything else.
19:09	kristof	bitemyapp: Hrm.
19:09	bitemyapp	kristof: you don't need monads for maybe. You can rely on ADT pattern matching or functors entirely.
19:09	AeroNotix	ADTs are wonderful, though
19:10	dnolen	AeroNotix: you cannot prove monad laws in Haskell either, so there's no proof of correctness there either.
19:10	bitemyapp	`fmap (+1) $ Just 1` returns Just 2
19:10	AeroNotix	dnolen: true
19:10	dnolen	word to the wise it's best to ignore bitemyapp on this channel
19:10	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: no, it's NOT
19:10	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: you use quickcheck to verify monad laws in Haskell.
19:10	noonian	lol
19:10	dnolen	on anything to do w/ Haskell
19:10	bitemyapp	people do it all the time.
19:10	AeroNotix	bitemyapp: not by the compiler, though
19:10	bitemyapp	oh ffs.
19:10	bitemyapp	so because the spaceship has one toilet instead of two you want to stay in a mud-hut?
19:10	bitemyapp	for real?
19:11	AeroNotix	c'mon
19:11	AeroNotix	so caremad
19:11	kristof	bitemyapp: You'll have to be more specific than "you're all living in a mudhut!"
19:11	bitemyapp	kristof: so fmap is from the Functor typeclass, you can do anything you want with a Maybe wrapped value just with that.
19:11	bitemyapp	kristof: monads are overkill for that.
19:12	bitemyapp	kristof: better examples would be State in Haskell, Async in OCaml.
19:12	kristof	Async in ocaml? Did you mean occam?
19:12	bitemyapp	kristof: I can't really drop an easy to digest explanation in IRC if you don't understand the math or Haskell behind it. You're better off just getting the epiphany yourself.
19:12	bitemyapp	kristof: I mean Async in OCaml. It's a library.
19:12	AeroNotix	Do you really need to understand math to understand fmap?
19:12	bitemyapp	kristof: look at grenchman's source code.
19:12	AeroNotix	unless there was something else you wanted him to understand
19:13	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: no.
19:13	bitemyapp	fmap is pretty straight-forward.
19:13	AeroNotix	sure
19:13	bitemyapp	it has the same type signature as map, it's just abstract instead of concrete, and specifically for Functors.
19:14	bitemyapp	the best way I can bake it down is in terms of typeclasses and type deduction for method dispatch.
19:14	bitemyapp	Fluokitten's use of protocols might demonstrate some of it.
19:14	AeroNotix	hm
19:14	bitemyapp	kristof: AeroNotix - https://github.com/uncomplicate/fluokitten
19:14	bitemyapp	so, they're basically using protocols to solve the type deduction and dispatch thing
19:14	kristof	Type inference is cool, I'll give static typing that.
19:14	bitemyapp	but it's not really composable or type-checked the way typeclasses are.
19:15	AeroNotix	next up: Go's type system
19:15	bitemyapp	it also can't really help with the composition of multiple protocols and help you stay sane.
19:15	bitemyapp	Go's type system is pointless. Why even bother?
19:15	kristof	^
19:15	AeroNotix	was a joke
19:15	bitemyapp	so the point is that in Haskell, you can (safely) write code in terms of composing things from different typeclasses
19:16	kristof	bitemyapp: So what you're saying is that protocol dispatch on type is flimsy without typeclasses and some form of single/multiple inheritance.
19:16	bitemyapp	kristof: you don't need inheritance, but yes.
19:16	bitemyapp	kristof: you can compose without inheritance.
19:16	kristof	Well, that's what typeclasses are kind of for, aren't they?
19:16	kristof	This is a that
19:16	kristof	This is an Ord
19:16	kristof	and a Num
19:16	kristof	etc.
19:16	bitemyapp	yeah but they're independent.
19:16	bitemyapp	those specific ones are.
19:16	kristof	So?
19:17	kristof	Classes can be independent
19:17	bitemyapp	Superclassing is a thing - people have been trying to turn Monad into a superclass of Applicative for awhile
19:17	bitemyapp	so that the relationships are more clear and match the category theory more directly.
19:17	bitemyapp	but it doesn't harm anything.
19:17	kristof	bitemyapp: I'm really think about generic functions and multiple inheritance in Common Lisp
19:17	bitemyapp	kristof: ick, you can do better than that by far.
19:17	kristof	Oh, probably, but it's certainly a step above Clojure protocols
19:17	bitemyapp	Rust traits, Scala traits, and Haskell typeclasses are a better way to do it.
19:18	kristof	bitemyapp: when's rust 0.9 out?
19:18	bitemyapp	kristof: yeah, I think I'd agree with that, but I was an AOP'er in CL.
19:18	bitemyapp	kristof: now.
19:18	kristof	Woah! Hold the phone! :P
19:18	kristof	bitemyapp: AOP?
19:18	locks	aspect-oriented programming
19:18	seangrove	~aop
19:18	clojurebot	I don't understand.
19:18	locks	?
19:18	kristof	Oh, I see
19:19	seangrove	clojurebot: aop is Aspect-oriented Programming http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspect-oriented_programming
19:19	clojurebot	Ok.
19:19	seangrove	~aop
19:19	bitemyapp	kristof: metaobject protocol stuff.
19:19	clojurebot	aop is Aspect-oriented Programming http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspect-oriented_programming
19:19	bitemyapp	kristof: I do the same in Clojure occasionally with dire/robert.hooke
19:19	locks	is this channel always this caremad?
19:19	bitemyapp	I don't think bringing 4chan jargon into this channel improves anything - can we drop that word?
19:20	kristof	locks: I coerced bitemyapp into having cordial discussion, no harm in that
19:20	bitemyapp	it implies that you should be detached from everything you say and that seems a poor way to communicate with others.
19:20	bitemyapp	insincerity ain't a good thing.
19:20	kristof	The internet is at stake, after all
19:20	kristof	:P But yes, discussion is important and I think it's healthy for any language community
19:21	locks	what I’ve seen isn’t discussion
19:21	bitemyapp	it's also how a lot of knowledge gets propagated in programming language communities.
19:21	locks	it’s “everything sucks"
19:21	bitemyapp	locks: well, I don't think you're obligated to be here.
19:21	locks	literally even, a couple pages up
19:21	kristof	locks: Everything does suck!
19:21	bitemyapp	you could go make a sandwich.
19:21	kristof	I'm about to fix myself a sandwich, actually.
19:22	locks	bitemyapp: oh, nice
19:22	bitemyapp	locks: if you're satisfied, you're not looking hard enough.
19:22	locks	yes I will leave because I won’t put up with your passive aggressiveness
19:22	bitemyapp	good way to blub it up.
19:22	alew	when writing clojure macros that involve functions included from other namespaces, should you unquote them?
19:22	technomancy	alew: just look at the macroexpansion
19:22	bitemyapp	alew: you mean fully qualify them?
19:23	justin_smith	alew: quasiquote already does the full neamespace expansion
19:23	kristof	bitemyapp: if you're on haskell or here regularly, I'll pester you sometime, thank you for piquing my interest again with opinionated combative behavior
19:23	hyPiRion	,`(+ 1 2) ;; alew
19:23	clojurebot	(clojure.core/+ 1 2)
19:23	bitemyapp	kristof: no problem. I give Haskell tutorials periodically in person and over the internet so if you need any help with anything please ping me.
19:23	bitemyapp	kristof: I'm always online but not necessarily at my terminal. I see my logs.
19:24	kristof	bitemyapp: I will. My biggest problem with Haskell was the bondage and discipline, but it's not without justification.
19:24	alew	right, it namespace expands them, but if that macro is used in another namespace, there won't be any issues?
19:24	bitemyapp	kristof: hum. Usually if it feels BDSM-y you might be going about things the hard way.
19:25	justin_smith	alew: if the defining namespace requires the ns in question, it is available if fully ns qualified, it all just works
19:25	bitemyapp	kristof: one of the better ways to break out of that when you want to "say less than things actually are" is Lens.
19:25	bitemyapp	especially to handle non-deterministically structured data.
19:26	justin_smith	alew: it would break if the macro uses an ns that its own file does not require, but then again that would break down at ns qualification time when compiling
19:26	noonian	alew: syntax quote namespace expands things in the namespace that the macro is written in which will have required the relevant namespaces so it's all good
19:26	bitemyapp	kristof: I prefer the BDSM compiler errors to the long tail of unnecessary type errors/stack-traces. That's subjective I s'pose, but I am legitimately more productive over a given period of time that way, not just preferentially.
19:26	kristof	Oh, no, I wasn't talking about static typing
19:26	kristof	It was with regard to state in general
19:27	alew	what about with java imports? those don't seem to be qualified
19:28	bitemyapp	kristof: I think that comes with grokking the typeclassopedia really.
19:29	bitemyapp	kristof: having pure/impure functions decomplected is pretty nice and monads let your side effects and state be introspectable, typed values instead of magic aetheria.
19:29	bitemyapp	kristof: I don't recall having any trouble firing off side effects at will.
19:29	bitemyapp	kristof: that might be awkwardness around not knowing how to write valid monadic code.
19:29	bitemyapp	I had the same problem earlier on.
19:30	bitemyapp	but again, I'd rather get smacked on the nose called a bad puppy for writing incorrect code.
19:33	Raynes	bitemyapp: I listened to the entirety of Visions and only realized it because I noticed the music stopped.
19:34	Raynes	Me not realizing I'm listening to music for 45 minutes isn't a good sign
19:35	bitemyapp	Raynes: a good sign for the music or your dehydration?
19:35	Raynes	For the music :p
19:35	bitemyapp	Raynes: you're used to really rambunctious stuff.
19:36	bitemyapp	with clear, loud, proud vocals.
19:36	bitemyapp	Raynes: Grimes is this spooky chick with a tape recorder from the 80s and a garage sale keyboard.
19:36	Raynes	Indeed.
19:39	arrdem	if I notice that the music is there, it's doing its job wrong.
19:39	arrdem	white noise ftw.
19:39	noonian	dnolen: is this an appropriate way to nest components in om or is this not a good idea to do? For example (om/build my-c app {:opts {:content (om/build my-c2 app {})}})
19:40	lsdafjklsd	noonian: why not
19:41	noonian	/shrug, it just doesn't feel intuitive
19:42	lsdafjklsd	noonian: yea, it doesn't look great just looking at it, but there is no context
19:42	Tolstoy	noonian: That doesn't seem right at all. Aren't ops for passing in small "configuration" settings for the my-c component?
19:42	stcredzero	In Rich Hickey's ant simulation, I keep seeing things like (send-off agent #'animation) in timing loops. What is with agent? Do those asterisks mean something, or is it just a different method name?
19:42	lsdafjklsd	tolstoy: well you can pass dynamic view in the ops
19:42	lsdafjklsd	tolstoy: he does that in an example
19:43	hyPiRion	stcredzero: That's old examples, but name means that the variable is dynamic
19:43	technomancy	stcredzero: it means the agent running the current code
19:43	Tolstoy	lsdafjklsd: Ah, okay.
19:43	justin_smith	strax: method? - agent is just a name for a var
19:43	noonian	lsdafjklsd: which example?
19:43	alandipert	stcredzero: the 'earmuffs' indicate in lisp a dynamic or mutable variable
19:44	justin_smith	naming dynamic bindings with name is a convention, but is not enforced at all
19:44	hyPiRion	and technomancy beat me to the second part
19:44	stcredzero	So it's just a convention, not some kind of sigil?
19:44	noonian	Tolstoy: its either in the ops or in the cursor for the app state right?
19:44	hyPiRion	stcredzero: yeah, just convention, but you'll get warnings by default if you don't follow it
19:44	justin_smith	right, a naming convention
19:45	Tolstoy	noonian: Alas, I always tend to try to keep things simple. I'd rather pass in an option, then use a "cond" or whatever to decide what to do.
19:45	hyPiRion	,(def foo nil) ;; e.g.
19:45	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.SecurityException: denied, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
19:45	lsdafjklsd	noonian: the sortable example
19:46	justin_smith	,(do (def thing 1) (def what 2) (+ thing what))
19:46	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.SecurityException: denied, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
19:46	noonian	lsdafjklsd: thanks
19:46	lsdafjklsd	noonian: (om/build sortable app {:opts {:view item}}))))
19:46	justin_smith	&(do (def thing 1) (def what 2) (+ thing what))
19:46	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
19:46	justin_smith	hmm
19:46	lsdafjklsd	noonian: item is an om/component
19:46	noonian	Tolstoy: it'd be nice to be able to write reusable component libraries though so you couldn't know ahead of time what to do in the different cases
19:47	robonerd	in the context of web app dev (+ client/mobile/etc would only be a bonus), does anyone happen to know of a language similar to ruby, but perhaps slightly tightened up? (eg, [opt-in] static typing, of which so far i've found erlang and racket)
19:48	alew	clojure has opt-in static typing
19:48	alew	sort of
19:48	robonerd	please explain?
19:48	noonian	lsdafjklsd: but there he builds it in the component he passes it to, which then needs to know about the interface for the item right?
19:49	alew	https://github.com/clojure/core.typed
19:50	lsdafjklsd	noonian: yea, it just get's wrapped in the functionality of sortable so not exactly as decouple as what you're trying to do
19:50	robonerd	in the context of web app dev (+ client/mobile/etc would only be a bonus), does anyone happen to know of a language similar to ruby, but perhaps slightly tightened up? (eg, [opt-in] static typing, of which so far i've found erlang and racket) ideally, on the topic of opt in typing i want to not only be able to say some property is an array, but say it's an array with only string elements.
19:50	robonerd	there, updated
19:51	alandipert	noonian: have you given hoplon.io a peep? our goal is modularity and to do it we separate the app state machine from the rendering via 'cell' ref type
19:51	hiredman	core.typed is based in some part on typed racket
19:51	alandipert	noonian: a similar approach might be possible using om but i haven't tried
19:52	lsdafjklsd	in react cant you render into components through mounting?
19:52	arrdem	hiredman: in large part...
19:52	lsdafjklsd	i've been meaning to look into that
19:52	dyreshark	robonerd: if you can deal with full static typing, F# is pleasant, runs on Windows/WP and OS X (with Mono, which is decent). Also, it has Xamarin for porting directly to iOS/Android. (Xamarin website advertises C#, but they have plugins for F# dev IIRC)
19:52	hiredman	and it can type collections just fine
19:52	dyreshark	s/OS X/Anything supported by mono/
19:52	noonian	alandipert: thanks for the link, i'll check it out
19:53	robonerd	in the context of web app dev (+ client/mobile/etc would only be a bonus), does anyone happen to know of a language with [opt-in] static gradual typing? ideally, i want to not only be able to say some property is an array, but say it's an array with only string elements.
19:53	robonerd	(updated)
19:53	dyreshark	ok :p
19:53	technomancy	robonerd: this isn't a forum, geez
19:53	hiredman	stop updating please
19:53	robonerd	oh sorry
19:53	Tolstoy	robonerd: Groovy? ;)
19:54	xuser	robonerd: Dart
19:54	hiredman	anyway, you've gotten plenty of responses
19:56	robonerd	loaded them up, will reearch now, ty
19:56	robonerd	btw does clojure have this feature?
19:56	robonerd	ah, loading core.typed now
19:57	hiredman	he must irc via email
20:00	bitemyapp	robonerd: if you want full static typing with FP give Haskell a shot!
20:01	bitemyapp	robonerd: the types are organized around typeclasses, and the functions are abstract/polymorphic by default rather than concrete by default.
20:01	bitemyapp	robonerd: so a relatively common function signature would be things like a -> b or a -> a with some relevant typeclass qualifier than having to go to extra trouble to make your functions reusable.
20:03	bitemyapp	Makes doing things the right way lower friction.
20:04	arrdem	$google haskell javascript compiler
20:04	lazybot	[The JavaScript Problem - HaskellWiki] http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/The_JavaScript_Problem
20:05	bitemyapp	arrdem: Fay, GHCJS, Haste.
20:05	dyreshark	^ Also, as much as it's considered good practice to add explicit type information in Haskell for functions, most types can be inferred for you by the compiler if you're feeling lazy ;)
20:05	arrdem	bitemyapp: yep.
20:05	bitemyapp	dyreshark: I use the inference to "query" what my code is doing. Very informative.
20:05	bitemyapp	arrdem: things that aren't Haskell but are similar that compile to JS include: PureScript and Roy.
20:06	bitemyapp	the most practical option right now is Fay.
20:06	bitemyapp	and that's what I use.
20:06	bitemyapp	FPComplete has about 10k+ LOC of Fay in their frontend at the moment.
20:06	bitemyapp	Types are shared directly with the backend.
20:06	arrdem	Javascript: not an acceptable PL, acceptable compile target. wat.
20:07	technomancy	* if you don't need integers
20:07	bitemyapp	technomancy: uh, mostly. \|0 is guarantee to return an integer.
20:08	bitemyapp	technomancy: so if you annotate the results of all numeric operations with that, it's integers all the way down modulo precision loss.
20:08	bitemyapp	asm.js understands it.
20:08	technomancy	bitemyapp: precision loss is what I mean
20:08	bitemyapp	technomancy: oh yeah, that part sucks but that's what asm.js is for.
20:10	bitemyapp	technomancy: asm.js compatible VMs will turn the operations into integers specifically.
20:10	alew	is there a good way to avoid increasingly nested conditionals for handling complex validation? specifically in web handlers
20:10	technomancy	sure, nice if you can assume it's there
20:12	alew	s/avoid/refactor/
20:12	arrdem	alew: dire's postconditions/preconditions could be useful...
20:12	bitemyapp	alew: Monoids!
20:13	arrdem	bitemyapp: quiet you.
20:13	bitemyapp	I'm serious :(
20:14	alew	I'm not super familiar with dire, but from what I gathered it doesn't give much benefit for one off conditionals?
20:14	alew	I'm probably off here
20:15	bitemyapp	alew: dire's fine if it's a match for what you want. Monoid Validator + Writer/Error is one way to do it "scalably" with sensible error messages.
20:15	arrdem	I mean if you are truly faced with a raft of disjoint, once-off conditionals there's nothing that can really help you. Any refactoring approach or tool will rely on commonalities or common sub-conditions.
20:16	alew	I guess I should just break them out into internal helper functions
20:18	bitemyapp	arrdem: if they're separated by space and time then you can use Monads...
20:18	arrdem	bitemyapp: I suppose -> [ a:Value, b:Err ] with short curcuiting would be a monoid...
20:18	bitemyapp	alew: Monoids let you aggregate a super-conditional, monads let you sequence functions against the value with sensible validation/error output as needed after/before the operations without repeating yourself.
20:18	bitemyapp	there are many options here!
20:19	alew	Well I'm using clojure, so monoids might not be the most idomatic approach here
20:20	ehabs	After profiling some code, I found out that walking lazy seqs is a big performance bottleneck in one of my functions. The problem is that running doall on it causes a stack overflow. Whats the best way for me to handle this?
20:20	steerio	why do you need the doall?
20:21	ehabs	because i don't want to re-walk the seq over and over again. or am i misunderstanding something?
20:21	steerio	re-walk as in?
20:21	arrdem	ehabs: need code to comment. refheap please.
20:21	steerio	the seq gets realized the first time you walk over it. whether the head gets retained depends on your code.
20:22	steerio	if the sequence is too large for your memory, however, it's your heap that gets blown, not your stack
20:22	alew	maybe your lazy seq is infinite, that would blow the stack
20:23	alew	or actually no
20:23	steerio	it wouldn't, that'd be the heap
20:23	ehabs	just a minute. i'll post the code for you to check out. i'm sure it isn't infinite because it evaluates as expected when its lazy. its just extremely slow
20:24	steerio	can you paste the actual output when that overflow happens?
20:24	steerio	(along with the code)
20:25	ehabs	here is the code: http://pastebin.com/45aweM15
20:26	arrdem	(dec pastebin)
20:26	lazybot	⇒ -1
20:26	arrdem	~pastebin
20:26	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
20:26	arrdem	clojurebot: you have failed me for the last time commander
20:26	clojurebot	Huh?
20:27	ehabs	sorry, i haven't used refheap before. i'll try to use it next time
20:28	ehabs	http://pastebin.com/gpuEa652
20:28	steerio	can you see the repeating pattern in the stack trace?
20:29	steerio	in fact your problem has nothing to do with the fact that you deal with lazy seqs
20:30	steerio	there's simply endless recursion somewhere in there
20:30	arrdem	steerio: it may be bounded, just bigger than stack size.
20:30	ehabs	let me see what i changed. it definitely ran for me a minute ago
20:31	steerio	that's true, just unlikely
20:33	ehabs	this code runs without a stack overflow: https://www.refheap.com/22773
20:35	steerio	i'm a bit too tired to diff them now
20:35	steerio	also, they contain quite some references to functions that you define but are not included
20:37	steerio	any of them could easily be the culprit
20:37	ehabs	do you have any advice on what i should look for?
20:37	steerio	anything that ends up in a circular call
20:38	shep-home	ehabs: are you running all of that code in the REPL?
20:38	ehabs	yes
20:39	shep-home	you might want to put some of it into a different namespace - that would help the stacktraces identify your code
20:42	steerio	in fact there's nothing in the visible stack trace that's not from core
20:42	shep-home	steerio: good point, I was just scanning for something different..
20:43	shep-home	Is it possible to have created a circular structure of some type?
20:43	shep-home	s/to have/that ehabs has/
20:44	ehabs	i don't think i do. the code works exactly as expected if i use a subset of the data
20:44	ehabs	the problem is when its using 12,000 data points
20:45	steerio	which is weird.
20:45	shep-home	ehabs: the only difference in the code is adding `vec` to the apply?
20:45	steerio	if it was a head retention problem, you'd blow the heap, not the stack
20:46	steerio	as far as lazy sequences go, they don't care how many items you end up having in them
20:46	shep-home	I wonder if you are just realizing something now that you weren't before
20:46	ehabs	yes that is correct. taking vex out causes it to blow the stack
20:46	shep-home	oh, taking it out...
20:46	ehabs	*vec
20:50	steerio	so what does seq-without-nth look like?
20:50	steerio	i think i'm starting to see what's going on here
20:51	steerio	you're basically creating lazy seqs of lazy seqs of lazy seqs...
20:51	steerio	so you're doing operations on sequences that yield lazy seqs in a depth proportional to your data size
20:51	steerio	which is all fine until you realize it
20:51	steerio	and then you blow the stack because it's so deep
20:52	steerio	imagine (map #(map #(map ....
20:52	steerio	in a 12k level depth
20:52	steerio	your call on vec is a way out of it because it realizes the given depth and frees you from one level of calls whenever you do it
20:53	ehabs	here are the other two helpers used in the let: https://www.refheap.com/22774
20:54	ehabs	the data is shaped like: X= [{1 float 2 float 3 float 4 float 5 float}...] and Y=[zeros-and-ones]
20:55	steerio	let me just illustrate you what i'm talking about
20:55	shep-home	steerio: so it could be "fixed" by only realizing a bit at a time, but there's still a timebomb waiting...?
20:55	steerio	,(reduce (fn [s _] (map identity s)) (range 12000))
20:55	clojurebot	#<StackOverflowError java.lang.StackOverflowError>
20:56	steerio	in fact the buildup of lazy sequences should be identified and eliminated
20:56	steerio	perhaps by a different algorythm, perhaps by realizing every step
20:57	ehabs	can you see where the buildup is happening?
20:57	steerio	your code is way more complex than what would allow me to see that at 3am
20:57	steerio	:D
20:59	steerio	in such situations what happens is that you repeatedly do some operation over elements of a collection
20:59	steerio	which in most cases can be refactored into one operation
21:00	steerio	like: (map inc (map inc (map inc coll))) is equivalent to (map #(+ 3 %) coll)
21:00	steerio	in this case you are thousands of level deep in the "(map inc (..."
21:00	steerio	granted, it's more complex than this example
21:01	ehabs	yeah, that makes sense. too bad it isn't that obvious in this case
21:01	steerio	start taking apart this huge functions into smaller ones
21:02	kristof	If it has over 5 levels of nesting...
21:02	steerio	and testing and comprehending what they do one by one, and you'll probably end up finding it
21:02	kristof	Ah, how does that joke go again...
21:02	kristof	"How do you know when a function or method gets too big?" "When it's bigger than my head." "You mean when it's too conceptually large?" "No, I LITERALLY put my head against the monitor."
21:04	ehabs	haha yeah, i definitely need to do that. the top part of the cross validation function is seems to be where the problem is and that can easily be broken out into small pieces.
21:06	steerio	ehabs, check this
21:06	steerio	,(class (flatten [1 [2 3] 4]))
21:06	clojurebot	clojure.lang.LazySeq
21:06	steerio	flatten yields a lazy seq. now, you're storing these as values in a hash
21:06	steerio	then you probably at some point repeat this operation and nest lazy seqs at a huge level
21:07	steerio	as you merge hashes and whatnot
21:08	steerio	every merge-with just nests those lazy seqs even more
21:08	steerio	without actually doing any flattening
21:08	steerio	the (vec) call realizes them at each level to create that vector out of them
21:09	steerio	thereby saving you from this nesting
21:09	steerio	in fact probably everything goes fine and dandy until your REPL tries to _print_ the insanely nested lazy seq
21:12	ehabs	yeah, that makes sense. thats definitely what its doing. i just don't see how it would get deep enough to matter in this case. i'm running it with only 10 groups, so it would at most be 9 levels deep.
21:12	steerio	remember that pretty much every operation you do on a collections yields a lazy seq
21:13	ehabs	yeah, thats true. i'm starting to visualize it now. is the solution to just start running doall on them or convert them to vectors? or is there a better way?
21:14	steerio	and in your case, if you merge two hashes with the same keys, all the values have just become at least one more level deeper nested
21:14	xuser	d
21:14	steerio	and all those hashes have the same keys, :training and :testing
21:15	steerio	(which begs the question of why you don't use a two-element vector for this)
21:15	steerio	also, partitioning data can be done more efficiently too
21:16	steerio	same goes for the :x/:y map, use a vector
21:16	steerio	so your data becomes [x y] instead of that (map #(hash-map ... thing
21:17	gtrak	I've missed it when other folks have talked about it, is 'austin' the most full-featured cljs repl? I'm hoping for some autocomplete love.
21:17	steerio	(get-in [:training :x] foo) becomes (first (second foo))
21:18	ehabs	yeah, that makes sense. but that still doesn't solve the issue with most of the clojure functions returning lazy seqs. whats the best way for me to avoid that?
21:19	steerio	a better algorythm :)
21:19	steerio	this normally isn't a problem
21:19	steerio	while in a non-lazy lisp this would not blow your stack, it'd be really ineffective
21:20	steerio	as you'd traverse collections 12k times, instead of writing less functions that do it in one step
21:23	bitemyapp	arrdem: doters?
21:25	ehabs	ok, i'll make the changes that you mentioned. thanks for the help steerio
21:25	steerio	np
21:26	steerio	in fact even using vector tuples instead of the hashes eases up on this
21:27	steerio	well, maybe even solves it
21:29	ehabs	ok, thats the first change i'll make
21:31	hiredman	/win 26
21:46	logic_prog	in clojure, is it possible to construct an object where (1) it supports all operations of map and (2) can only be constructed by a certain function
21:47	logic_prog	i.e. I want "(my-magic-foo ...)" to be the only way to construct a special map
21:48	alandipert	logic_prog: check out def-map-type in potemkin, https://github.com/ztellman/potemkin
21:49	logic_prog	alandipert: this is interesting, let me look into this
21:50	noonian	logic_prog: sounds like records might be what you want
21:50	sritchie	noonian: I think logic_prog wants to hide the constructors
21:50	noonian	ah
21:50	logic_prog	yeah, I want guarantee that a function was only created via (my-magic-foo ...)
21:51	logic_prog	s/function/map
22:04	logic_prog	how can I check if something is a core.async.chan ?
22:04	logic_prog	err, clojure.core.async/chan
22:06	gtrak	seems like they all may extend clojure.core.async.impl.protocols/Channel
22:06	gtrak	satisfy, rather
22:07	gtrak	but.. one way to know is to try to use it as a channel :-)
22:07	gtrak	surely that'll fail.
22:07	logic_prog	I'm surprised there's no (chan? ...) function
22:08	noonian	me too
22:08	logic_prog	great wizards of clojure,
22:08	logic_prog	fix the above please
22:08	logic_prog	add a (chan? ..._) to clojure.core.async
22:09	gtrak	seems harmless enough
22:10	gtrak	I'm trying to get a dump of the cljs analyzer state, massive rabbit hole
22:11	gtrak	from hacking cljsbuild
22:20	abp	logic_prog: There was a ticket for it: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/ASYNC-12
22:21	logic_prog	(defn chan? [c] #+clj (= (type c) clojure.core.async.impl.channels.ManyToManyChannel) )
22:21	logic_prog	looks sorta ugly
22:24	arrdem	bitemyapp: just got back from a barbeque outing. hopping on.
22:27	bobajett	hi folks, Im wondering why in Perl/Ruby split("foo", "") -> ["f","o","o"] and in clojure (str/split "foo" #"") -> ["","f","o","o"]?
22:29	andyf	bobajett: Clojure's split is based on Java String class split, and that is the way Java String split works.
22:29	bobajett	andyf: gotcha. Thanks!
22:30	amalloy	bobajett: i can't speak for ruby, but clojure of course just delegates this to java. and java asks "where is the first match of #"" in this string? okay, it's before all the characters. i'll return a match there. now where's the next? after f, all right, return a match there..."
22:30	TEttinger	bobajett, there's also ##(vec "fpp")
22:30	lazybot	⇒ [\f \p \p]
22:30	TEttinger	but that returns chars
22:30	amalloy	that's as sensible an interpretation of "split on [nothing]" as ruby's
22:30	TEttinger	or ##(mapv str "foo")
22:30	lazybot	⇒ ["f" "o" "o"]
22:31	noonian	is there an empty string on either end of "foo"?
22:31	bobajett	amalloy: :-) cool thanks for the detailed explanation
22:31	amalloy	TEttinger: (seq "foo") seems nicer than vec
22:31	noonian	seems like theres actually any number of them
22:31	bobajett	noonian: yeah thats what I was wondering too
22:31	TEttinger	amalloy, yeah, that too
22:31	hiredman	,(.charAt "foo" 0)
22:31	clojurebot	\f
22:32	bobajett	TEttinger: sorry Im only very early in my learning clojure career what do the two ## mean in ##(mapv str "foo")?
22:32	lazybot	⇒ ["f" "o" "o"]
22:32	TEttinger	just a command to execute the bot's eval
22:32	amalloy	noonian: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/lang/String.html#split(java.lang.String,%20int) says some things about "trailing empty matches", but the sentence is hard for me to follow
22:32	TEttinger	same as starting a line in IRC with ,
22:32	bobajett	ah got it thanks.
22:33	andyf	noonian: If you want to get all splits, including the trailing ones, give a negative integer as a 3rd arg
22:33	amalloy	&(.split "foo" "" -1)
22:33	lazybot	⇒ #<String[] [Ljava.lang.String;@9ffba4>
22:33	amalloy	&(seq (.split "foo" "" -1))
22:33	lazybot	⇒ ("" "f" "o" "o" "")
22:33	logic_prog	in cljs, how can I check if an object is an atom, a string, or a cljs.core.async ?
22:34	andyf	Several examples available here that might be more instructive to read through than to try to give general rules: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.string/split
22:34	TEttinger	so (mapv str "foo") will take "foo", and for each element (a character), return the result of calling str on it "f" "o" "o", and then make it a vector (not a lazy seq as for map, which may be preferable or not)
22:36	bobajett	TEttinger: got it thanks. I could guess what (mapv str "foo") did, but didn't know what the two ## were for.
22:37	bobajett	##(class "foo")
22:37	lazybot	⇒ java.lang.String
22:37	TEttinger	bobajett, heh it's an odd shortcut for the bot to use, since #(* %1 %1) is an anon fn that will multiply an argument by itself
22:38	TEttinger	same as (fn [n] (* n n))
22:39	bobajett	TEttinger: isn't the reader macro for creating a set also start with a "#" ?
22:39	TEttinger	yes
22:39	TEttinger	# is a dispatch char
22:39	TEttinger	it changes what comes after it
22:40	TEttinger	#() is a fn, #{} is a set, there are a few others
22:40	TEttinger	I believe one causes a form to be ignored, can't remember what it is
22:40	bobajett	logic_prog: I shouldn't be answering this, since my clojure knowledge only some days old, but maybe (class yourObject) ? and compare it with java.lang.String or java.lang.Long or some such?
22:41	logic_prog	bobajett: good try, but I need it to work in cljs
22:41	TEttinger	bobajett, that would definitely work on JVM, but maybe it doesn't on CLJS aaaagh
22:42	bobajett	TEttinger: '("foo" #_(elide this stuff) "bar")
22:43	TEttinger	bobajett, seems like that's one of them. I believe #> also gets elided, it came up earlier
22:44	amalloy	wat
22:44	bobajett	TEttinger: ah did not know about that one. don't see it on the cheatsheet.
22:44	amalloy	,'(x #> y)
22:44	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: No reader function for tag >>
22:44	amalloy	that doesn't work in any version of clojure
22:45	bobajett	,'(x #_y z)
22:45	amalloy	as far as i know
22:45	clojurebot	(x z)
22:45	TEttinger	it was one of the reader macros on that one thing earlier today
22:47	bobajett	thanks folks, I was trying to do regex splitting and noticed Perl/Ruby behaved differently and Python behaved differently and Clojure behaved differently. #clojure is where I found the most helpful people :-)
22:51	logic_prog	given an object
22:51	TEttinger	http://sprunge.us/GbOX?diff
22:51	logic_prog	is there a easy way to list all protocols it satsifies/implements?
22:52	tbaldridge	no, but you can list all objects that extend a protocol
22:57	bja_	logic_prog, maybe something involving #(.keys js/Object %)?
22:57	bja_	err, maybe not.
22:57	bja_	cljs$lang$protocol_mask$partition0$ doesn't look super helpful
23:03	gtrak	cemerick: would you balk at an autodoc sort of thing in lein-cljsbuild? I managed to make it dump the analyzer output, now I want to see if I can grab what I need to build something like that.
23:05	gtrak	I'm also thinking auto-complete eventually, not sure if that's the right approach, but just trying stuff :-).
23:05	cemerick	gtrak: Not sure. Open an issue when you're closer. :-)
23:05	gtrak	cool
23:13	logic_prog	what are the names of the protocols that string, number, atom implement ?
23:19	gtrak	logic_prog: huh?
23:19	logic_prog	in clojure, everything implements some protocol right?
23:19	logic_prog	what protocols do string, number, and atom objects implement?
23:20	gtrak	not necessarily, plus some of those are java interfaces
23:20	gtrak	like IDeref
23:20	tbaldridge	clojure or clojurescript?
23:21	tbaldridge	in clojure, most things are backed by java interfaces
23:22	gtrak	holy jesus, the serialized output of the cljs compiler is massive
23:22	gtrak	I mean the state
23:23	tbaldridge	yeah....it will be
23:23	tbaldridge	there's a ton of structural sharing
23:24	tbaldridge	so the same hashmap will extist on almost every ast node
23:24	gtrak	in general are there libs that walk it? trying to simply extract 'vars' and metadata and such.
23:24	gtrak	I could do it in-process, but was hoping to just dump it :-)
23:25	tbaldridge	yeah, it's not really dump-able. You want to do it in process
23:26	tbaldridge	although you might be able to strip the :env nodes before export. That's where 99% of the bulk is, and it's not really needed
23:30	gtrak	I might resort to inspector.clj :-)
23:30	gtrak	I've used that like once.
23:30	andyf	gtrak: I've used the inspector quite a bit for looking at output data from tools.analyzer(.jvm)
23:30	tbaldridge	just use prewalk and post walk
23:31	andyf	gtrak: It does not show metadata, unfortunately
23:31	gtrak	ah
23:31	tbaldridge	and metadata isn't really used by the cljs compiler
23:31	gtrak	yea, metadata seems silly, the whole thing is metadata
23:32	logic_prog	https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/search?p=2&q=swap%21&type=Code <-- where is swap! defined ?
23:32	tbaldridge	https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/cljs/cljs/core.cljs#L7081
23:32	tbaldridge	That's swap! ^^
23:32	andyf	gtrak: I wouldn't use it for looking at analysis results of large source files, but worked OK for me for small to medium source files.
23:35	logic_prog	tbaldridge: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/search?q=defn+swap%21&type=Code <-- how should I be searching for taht instead?
23:36	tbaldridge	most stuff is in that single file, I'
23:37	tbaldridge	I've never really used github search
23:37	amalloy	logic_prog: just look in the file that it "should" be in - the cljs source is organized pretty predictably. i have no experience with github code search, but it sounds like it's not that useful
23:37	logic_prog	amalloy: I'm getting started, "should" means nothing to a newb with no intuition
23:37	logic_prog	however, grep seems to work
23:38	amalloy	like tbaldridge says, most functions from cljs.core are in that one file
23:38	amalloy	macros are all in another file somewhere
23:38	Raynes	Yay for shoving everything in a giant file!
23:39	tbaldridge	at least it's easier to find.
23:39	tbaldridge	I really don't have a problem with putting it all in one file
23:43	KeithPM	Good day. I am having a few problems with a function to generate permutations. I created a gist here https://gist.github.com/kpmaynard/8367053. I have some commentary at the top but I am currently running in to two errors in LightTable (permx '(1 2 3)) is generating the following errors
23:43	KeithPM	at recursion$permx.invoke(/Users/kpm/dev/clojure/recursion/src/recursion.clj:262)
23:43	KeithPM	in the status window
23:43	KeithPM	and
23:43	KeithPM	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: recursion$permx
23:43	KeithPM	AFn.java:437 clojure.lang.AFn.throwArity
23:43	KeithPM	AFn.java:35 clojure.lang.AFn.invoke
23:43	KeithPM
23:43	KeithPM	In the REPL
23:44	gtrak	eek, don't paste multi-lines like that
23:45	KeithPM	Would you prefer that to be on one line?
23:45	gtrak	well, here's the relevant single line: clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: recursion$permx
23:46	KeithPM	gtrak: I am calling the function (perms '(1 2 3)) That looks like one argument to me right?
23:47	gtrak	permx is the breaking one
23:47	KeithPM	OK… Maybe in the recursive calls?
23:48	gtrak	seems like you didn't evaluate something before running it
23:48	gtrak	so, it's running an old version of the function or something like that
23:48	KeithPM	I think I know why… Looks like when the seq is a singleton, rest is nil...
23:48	KeithPM	Let me take a look at that
23:48	gtrak	nil is still an arg
23:48	KeithPM	OK
23:48	KeithPM	Hmmm
23:48	gtrak	so.. it's whatever's calling that in the first place most likely
23:49	TEttinger	KeithPM, are you sure your parens line up?
23:50	KeithPM	TEttinger Hmmm… I think so, I have pretty much cleared out the repo and the file compiles OK
23:51	TEttinger	yeah, it's just the indents were at different levels in the gist
23:51	TEttinger	nvm just checked
23:54	KeithPM	TEttinger: OK.
23:55	KeithPM	gtrak: The first call is being made in the instarepl
23:55	TEttinger	also I think you may be using nil incorrectly: ##(nil? [])
23:55	lazybot	⇒ false
23:55	hansel-han	What could I use to get a set where values have a TTL?
23:55	TEttinger	hansel-han, like an expiration date?
23:56	hansel-han	TEttinger: it's for a Who's Online box on a forum. yeah. users get conj'd when they do click around on the forum but fall off when inactive for 5 minutes.
23:58	amalloy	hansel-han: i've used a sorted-map of {timestamp, value}
23:58	TEttinger	I'd use something like overtone/at-at and schedule an event to delete users who have are inactive for 5 minutes, resetting on action
23:58	KeithPM	TEttinger: Do you mean in permx? RH says when there is nothing left in a sequence clojure returns nil not ()… I therefore test for nil? not empty? Is that a problem?
23:58	hansel-han	I've never used core.cache but I see it has a "TTLCache". Perhaps that's an option?
23:59	amalloy	with such a sorted map, you can easily say "remove all entries whose keys are less than x", and updating someone's timestamp is just dissocing them and re-associng to the current timestamp
23:59	TEttinger	KeithPM, kinda. the preferred idiom is using seq to test for non-emptiness, which returns nil on an empty seq and the seq otherwise.
23:59	TEttinger	,(seq [1 2 3])
23:59	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
23:59	TEttinger	,(seq [])
23:59	clojurebot	nil
23:59	amalloy	using scheduling or a cache sounds like a lot of work, and less predictable (timing-wise) than doing it yourself