#clojure – 2014-01-09

2014-01-09

00:02	dsrx	cerealklr: btw http://symbolhound.com/?q=clojure&l=&e=%40&n=&u= (the "@" was included in the exact phrase via advanced search)
00:02	dsrx	(needed to do that to not see a lot of @mention noise in github issues and stackoverflow and such)
00:08	cerealklr	dsrx: That's an awesome tool. Thanks!
00:21	seancorfield	dare i ask who here is using mongodb and what library you are using?
00:21	seancorfield	currently evaluating options, after using congomongo for a couple of years
00:28	egghead	seancorfield: i've been using congomongo for some time too, but monger looks pretty nice
00:33	maravillas	b
00:40	seancorfield	egghead: yeah, that's where i'm leaning atm... monger would allow me to get away from dynamic global variables, and has much better documentation
00:44	hiredman	/win 11
00:59	noprompt	dnolen: if you're around i have a design question around building a generic component.
00:59	abaranosky	seancorfield: I used monger a little, but honestly not enough to say much... bu tit does have nice docs
01:00	noonian	i'm also interested in how best to build generic components
01:02	noprompt	noonian: have you any thoughts about it?
01:03	seancorfield	abaranosky: anything that bothered you about monger?
01:03	noonian	i haven't thought too hard about it, but i have gone down a few paths that probably aren't the right way to do it
01:05	noonian	i've been using sablono for hiccup like syntax, and one thing you can do with that is instead of writing components at all, just right pure functions that return sablono data and call them from your components. This works fine, and allow you to just use normal function calling syntax instead of the build interface, but it wouldn't work for someone who isn't using sablono and wrapping their sablono syntax with (html ...)
01:06	xpika	i have lein installed but i can't find standalone clojure? Where could it be?
01:06	seancorfield	xpika: what do you mean by "standalone clojure"?
01:06	seancorfield	can you do this? lein repl
01:06	xpika	clojure file.clj ... run file
01:06	noonian	i have some more general questions about how you should treat your app's state; for example, should i avoid storing any mutable state there? (like objects from 3rd party js libs)
01:07	seancorfield	lein expects you to use a project to run code
01:07	seancorfield	lein new app myapp
01:07	seancorfield	then cd myapp; lein run
01:07	seancorfield	and it will run src/myapp/core.clj
01:08	seancorfield	(since you said lein new _app_ to create the project)
01:08	xpika	seancorfield: could it be that i have individual file running program somewhere anyway?
01:08	seancorfield	you pretty much can't run a standalone file without dependencies / classpath etc...
01:09	seancorfield	but there's probably a leiningen plugin that will let you run a standalone non-project file
01:10	noonian	but as far as components go, to me it's unclear whether a component should prefer to take structure it's logic around the state of the cursor it's given, or the :opts map that you can pass in. Doing it in the cursor results in nicer calling syntax imo, but it feels weird that third party components would influence how you have to structure your apps 'state' so you can pass them the appropriate data to render themselves.
01:10	abaranosky	seancorfield: there were some small warts in the api, like needing to explicitly use call to (array-map ...)
01:11	ddellacosta	how can I run a single clojure.test test in the repl?
01:16	ddellacosta	ah, I see that you can run it directly, but fixtures get borked. Also, http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-866?page=com.atlassian.streams.streams-jira-plugin:activity-stream-issue-tab
01:17	ddellacosta	looks like it's in 1.6, huh
01:40	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: I've never actually used fixtures.
01:41	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: I use them a fair amount with clojure.test. Very handy for some things.
01:46	shaunxcode	anyone know what the status of avout is?
01:48	sm0ke	unmaintained i would say
01:48	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: I think I accomplish the same thing via simple function calls, but it's entirely likely I could be wrong as I don't really know what people use them for.
02:03	Tolstoy	Do you guys know what it is about this: "{:id :3fc334c0-2214-4f0f-baba-5485c11e1b1f}" that kills the clojurescript edn reader?
02:03	seancorfield	ddellacosta: you can run a test fn manually but it's ugly
02:03	seancorfield	see https://www.refheap.com/22653
02:03	Tolstoy	Ah, starts with a number.
02:03	Tolstoy	Jeez.
02:03	seancorfield	that runs an each fixture (each-fn) around the foo test fn
02:05	TEttinger	,:3
02:05	ddellacosta	seancorfield: thanks, that's better than nothing
02:05	clojurebot	:3
02:05	TEttinger	hm
02:06	seancorfield	if you need a once fixture you'll need to improve a bit :)
02:06	TEttinger	Tolstoy, that looks like uh... it shouldn't be a problem huh
02:06	TEttinger	clojure can handle it on JVM...
02:06	Tolstoy	TEttinger: It's definitely that the keyword starts with a number. Works okay in Clojure, just not Clojurescript.
02:06	TEttinger	,{:id :3fc334c0-2214-4f0f-baba-5485c11e1b1f}
02:06	clojurebot	{:id :3fc334c0-2214-4f0f-baba-5485c11e1b1f}
02:06	seancorfield	TEttinger: for EDN, keywords cannot begin with a digit - for Clojure they can
02:07	TEttinger	huh
02:07	seancorfield	Tolstoy: use a regular clojure(script) reader instead of edn?
02:08	Tolstoy	seancorfield: Using cljs-ajax, decided to ditch JSON for fun.
02:08	Tolstoy	seancorfield: It uses cljs.reader/read-string.
02:08	seancorfield	not edn then? (you said edn earlier)
02:09	Tolstoy	Does clojurescript have an edn reader outside of cljs.reader?
02:09	Tolstoy	(I know about clojure.edn.)
02:10	seancorfield	edn reader != regular clojure/cljs reader
02:10	seancorfield	but it sounds like you hit a bug in the cljs reader - you should file a bug on JIRA
02:11	Tolstoy	You mean it's not official that keywords can't start with a number?
02:11	seancorfield	it's de facto allowed - since clojure's reader allows it - but edn does not allow it
02:12	seancorfield	1.6 master introduced a change to disallow it recently but then reverted that change (for clojure)
02:12	seancorfield	the thread is probably on the clojure-dev mailing list
02:12	Tolstoy	Interesting. I use clojure.edn on the server side, and it read those keywords back in (from the file system) just fine.
02:13	seancorfield	hmm, check the edn spec - pretty sure that shouldn't be legal in edn, only in clojure itself
02:13	seancorfield	(i may be wrong of course)
02:14	shaunxcode	yeah that is a valid bug in clojure.edn/read-string
02:14	Tolstoy	shaunxcode: that it ALLOWS :34abc?
02:15	shaunxcode	yeah that should not be allowed
02:31	abaranosky	/msg bbloom already found a use for map-state
02:56	derek_c	how do you update leiningen?
02:56	derek_c	ah, I see a upgrade command
03:25	riley526	With dommy, how do you make a selection by attribute, e.g. $('tr[data-id=1]')? I tried (sel1 "tr[data-id=1]") but I got "Uncaught SyntaxError: Failed to execute query: 'tr[data-id=1]' is not a valid selector."
03:25	riley526	The jQuery version definitely returns the right thing.
03:25	daGrevis	so clojure is compiled to java byte-code?
03:27	TEttinger	daGrevis, yes. clojurescript is compiled to JS
03:28	TEttinger	clojure is compiled to .class files
03:53	logic_prog	the top result on google for "clojure etags" is this so answer: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1481842/clojure-emacs-etags -- is there a better way to use clojure / tags ? (all I want is to be able to specify a function name, and jump to that function). Node: I'm using cljx, so a nrepl-based-solution would probably jump me to the auto-generated .clj file rather than the .cljx file it comes from.
04:11	augustl	logic_prog: nrepl has this
04:11	logic_prog	augustl: can you point me at docs / a blog entry ?
04:13	augustl	logic_prog: I could google it for you :)
04:13	augustl	don't have anything bookmarked ^^
04:13	logic_prog	what am I googling for ? "nrepl tags" ?
04:13	logic_prog	and how do I jump back to the cljx file
04:13	augustl	nrepl emacs jump to implementation maybe
04:14	logic_prog	augustl: I don't see it on the first 3 pages of results
04:14	logic_prog	why don't you google it for me? :-)
04:14	logic_prog	my google fu is weak
04:14	augustl	to jump back, C-x b RET will do that (jumps back to the previous buffer)
04:23	Southy	I find having the repl in another pane makes life easier, then C-x o swithes between panes
04:25	katox	c-c c-z to jump back and forth between repl and a file
04:25	katox	plus I can't recommend winner-mode enough
04:25	clgv	Southy: additional REPL monitor for the win ;)
04:27	Southy	clgv: given how muc a second monitor on my iMac would be cost, I think I will give that a miss!
04:28	clgv	yeah, the advantage of a non-aplle product ^^
04:28	clgv	*apple
04:29	clgv	cheaper and extensible :D
04:30	Southy	I love apple stuff, but I could never convince anyone that it is better than a custom desktop with Linux, due to the cost
04:30	Southy	I do a bunch of iOS development so it is a no brainer for me
04:31	Southy	switching between clojure in my spare time and objective-c at work is feeling weird at the moment!
04:32	kzar	(Has anyone made a linux laptop comparable to the MBP yet? The pixel is the only one that looked close to me but it has a tiny hard drive.)
04:33	Southy	The specs on the MBP are really high, hence the price. Dell come close, but the price is similar, and then don't supply linux on their top end laptops
04:33	ahihi	Southy: you know you can connect any display to a mac, right?
04:34	Southy	Yeah, but not with full thunderbolt connectivity, and there aren't many monitors less money than the apple one with the same resolution
04:36	Southy	not a fan of mismatched resolutions! there are some promising ones coming from china, they are the rejected apple panels put in a similar body, for half the price, if you can actually find someone selling them
04:37	ahihi	right, thunderbolt... my mac pro is old enough that I don't need to worry about that :P
04:38	ahihi	I have three displays, all with different resolutions. ;) it's not optimal, but it sure beats having only one
04:38	Southy	plus it is an iMac, so you need extra connectors :P my macbook is connected to a normal monitor over HDMI
04:38	kzar	(I want to get occulus rift when it comes otu and use a 3D window manager that would give the illusion of a wall of amazing monitors... if that's possible?!)
05:17	yogsototh	Hi all! Using leiningen2 where should I put my .jar for the plugins?
05:18	yogsototh	lein install in my project dir create a local jar, but I don't know what to do with it. I can't find it by putting the information in .lein/profile.clj
05:25	turbopape	Hi guys,
05:25	turbopape	would you recommend openjdk for production ?
05:25	turbopape	or shall you strictly stick with oracle's vm ?
05:26	Southy	they are basically the same these days
05:26	turbopape	ok...
05:26	Southy	java 8 is being developed by the openjdk people
05:26	TEttinger	is oracle more optimized in any way? or does OpenJDK have the same HotSpot JIT?
05:27	turbopape	Think it's the same Engine HotSpot-wise...
05:27	Southy	yeah, pretty sure the compiler is the same
05:29	turbopape	okay, I have another question : How many times does one have to turn back to java... I mean, to optimize calculations, etc...
05:29	turbopape	Or (Hopefully) will I stay with Clojure (Hopefully) ?
05:30	turbopape	I mean, these are to assess your feelings in productions, that's why I am asking ... :)
05:33	oskarkv	turbopape I think not a lot. The things that might be too slow sometimes is the datastructures and primitives (boxing). But one can avoid boxing a lot of the time.
05:34	turbopape	oskarkv, by datastructures you mean like (defrecord) ?
05:34	oskarkv	are* :P
05:35	oskarkv	no i mean the standard ones, like vectors and maps. I don't know how fast they are, but they are doing more work than mutable ones.
05:36	turbopape	okay oskarkv , so what is boxing about basically, If i may ask ? (excuse for the n00bness )
05:37	oskarkv	turbopape it's when primitives (int, double, etc) are put into objects (Integer, Double) to fit into certain arguments and data structures
05:37	turbopape	ok ...
05:37	turbopape	oskarkv, so you are talking java interop ?
05:38	oskarkv	no
05:38	oskarkv	And boxing can happen in pure java too'
05:38	turbopape	okay
05:39	turbopape	So oskarkv, If I write my whole greedy algorithm in pure clojure, can I rely on - say - map to be performant ?
05:40	turbopape	(map #(+ % %) vect1 vect2) for instance...
05:40	turbopape	where vect1 et vect2 would be huuuuuge :)
05:40	kzar	,(map + (range 10) (range 10))
05:40	clojurebot	(0 2 4 6 8 ...)
05:41	kzar	,(nth (map + (range) (range)) 1000000)
05:41	clojurebot	2000000
05:41	turbopape	yeah, kzar, thank you
05:41	turbopape	:)
05:42	turbopape	I suppose that if the bot handles it,that says all about it :)
05:42	darthdeus	why do i need to write (-> 5 #(/ % 3) #(+ 4 %)) like (->> 5 (#(/ % 3)) (#(+ 4 %))) ?
05:43	marianoguerra	I find myself using pretty offten (swap! atom-with-map #(assoc[-in]/dissoc[-in] % k [v])) is there a simple lib that provides me a "bucket" kind of thing where I can do (get bucket & ks) (set bucket & ks value) (delete bucket & ks)?
05:43	marianoguerra	or am I missing something?
05:43	marianoguerra	(I only use this when I need it, I'm not simulating mutability all over the place with this :D
05:43	DerGuteMoritz	darthdeus: because #() creates a function but -> only does a code surface transformation. try (-> 5 (/ 3) (+ 4)) inst ead
05:44	DerGuteMoritz	*instead
05:44	DerGuteMoritz	darthdeus: that is transformed to (+ (/ 5 3) 4)
05:44	darthdeus	DerGuteMoritz: (/ 3) doesn't do what i want, since i want 3/x and not x/3 :)
05:44	darthdeus	the other way around
05:44	oskarkv	darthdeus because the reader macro #() is expanded first to (fn ....)
05:44	DerGuteMoritz	darthdeus: ok then use ->> instead
05:45	darthdeus	hmhmm
05:45	DerGuteMoritz	that will be transformed to (+ 4 (/ 3 5))
05:46	oskarkv	note that you can write (-> 5 (/ 3) (+ 4)), and that in the case of (#(...)) it does not matter if you use -> or ->>
05:46	oskarkv	darthdeus
05:46	darthdeus	but how does the extra parens with #(...) help there?
05:46	oskarkv	,(macroexpand '(-> 1 #(+ % 1)))
05:46	clojurebot	(fn* 1 [p1__73#] (+ p1__73# 1))
05:47	oskarkv	see the 1 after fn*?
05:47	oskarkv	that's not right
05:47	oskarkv	,(macroexpand '(-> 1 (#(+ % 1))))
05:47	clojurebot	((fn* [p1__98#] (+ p1__98# 1)) 1)
05:48	darthdeus	hmm interesting
05:48	DerGuteMoritz	the extra parens result in the anonymous function created with #() to be applied
05:48	oskarkv	but as i said
05:48	oskarkv	,(macroexpand '(-> 1 (+ 1)))
05:48	clojurebot	(+ 1 1)
05:48	oskarkv	works
05:48	DerGuteMoritz	yeah no need for #()
05:49	oskarkv	a lot of the time anyway :P
05:49	DerGuteMoritz	yeah :-)
05:49	DerGuteMoritz	unless you feel like adding a dash of perl to your code
05:49	darthdeus	i guess i was confused because i thought (+ 1) is a partial application
05:50	Jarda	hey! https://github.com/mylesmegyesi/metis is a great tool for validating input. But do you know a similar that would also return the input sanitized (would remove additional properties and transform numbers from strings to numbers etc)
05:50	oskarkv	darthdeus oh, but clojure does not do implicit partial application
05:51	darthdeus	my brain still thinks every FP language is like haskell
05:52	whilo_	ibdknox: thanks for opensourcing!!!
05:52	oskarkv	darthdeus also not that (+), (+ 1), (+ 1 2 3 4 5) etc are all valid expressoins
05:52	oskarkv	note*
05:56	oskarkv	marianoguerra you dont need #() around assoc there. (swap! atom assoc-in [:a :b] 1) works. Also, there is (reset! atom value) to just set the value without using a function
05:57	oskarkv	marianoguerra and get is of course @atom
05:58	oskarkv	(get-in @atom [k k2])
07:30	derek_c	when you are on REPL, how do you clear the input? ctrl+c terminates the whole REPL
07:30	sm0ke	ctrl-l
07:30	sm0ke	depends actually on the readline config
07:30	sm0ke	oh you said input
07:31	sm0ke	whaever you use in emacs i guess
07:31	sm0ke	C-k?
07:32	sm0ke	well the support for readline in clojure repl sucks big time
07:32	sm0ke	its basically the problem of jline
07:32	sm0ke	no blame on lein
07:40	sm0ke	is it possible to get a fully resolved name from a macro of a function
07:40	sm0ke	so i want a macro like (weird-macro inc 1) which returns 2 and prints "clojure.core/inc"
07:42	hyPiRion	sm0ke: readline issues are dependent on the JVM, not packages trying to solve the issue, trust me on that
07:42	sm0ke	,(defmacro weird-macro [f & body] `(do (~f ~@body) (prn ~f))))
07:42	clojurebot	#'sandbox/weird-macro
07:42	sm0ke	,(weirdmacro inc 1)
07:42	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: weirdmacro in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
07:42	hyPiRion	it's hard to get it working right on JVM
07:43	sm0ke	,(weird-macro inc 1)
07:43	clojurebot	#<core$inc clojure.core$inc@102e37e>\n
07:43	DerGuteMoritz	,(defmacro weird-macro [f & body] `(do (prn `~f) (~f ~@body)))
07:43	clojurebot	#'sandbox/weird-macro
07:43	DerGuteMoritz	,(weird-macro inc 1)
07:43	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such var: sandbox/f, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
07:43	DerGuteMoritz	,(defmacro weird-macro [f & body] `(do (prn `~~f) (~f ~@body)))
07:43	clojurebot	#'sandbox/weird-macro
07:43	DerGuteMoritz	,(weird-macro inc 1)
07:43	clojurebot	#<core$inc clojure.core$inc@102e37e>\n2
07:43	DerGuteMoritz	arg
07:44	sm0ke	DerGuteMoritz: doesnt works
07:44	sm0ke	DerGuteMoritz: i checked on my repl
07:44	DerGuteMoritz	nested quasiquote is tricky
07:44	DerGuteMoritz	just a sec, will not spam the channel
07:44	sm0ke	hyPiRion: no
07:44	sm0ke	hyPiRion: i dont agree
07:44	sm0ke	hyPiRion: python did a pretty good job man
07:44	sm0ke	its really barebones
07:45	sm0ke	all you had to do was wrap readline already present in unix
07:45	sm0ke	!!!
07:45	sm0ke	really!
07:46	sm0ke	,(defmacro weird-macro [f & body] `(vec (~f ~@body)))
07:46	clojurebot	#'sandbox/weird-macro
07:46	sm0ke	,(weird-macro inc 1)
07:46	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to convert: class java.lang.Long to Object[]>
07:46	hyPiRion	,(defmacro weird-macro [f & body] `(do (prn (var ~f)) (~f ~@body)))
07:46	clojurebot	#'sandbox/weird-macro
07:46	sm0ke	,(weird-macro inc 1)
07:46	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/inc\n2
07:46	sm0ke	whoa!
07:46	sm0ke	you are a genius
07:47	hyPiRion	I have my moments :p
07:47	DerGuteMoritz	var is a good idea
07:47	rurumate	is there a library to do something like curl -O, i.e. streaming http (to file, or to seq)
07:48	sm0ke	rurumate: well http libs normally return inputstreams
07:48	sm0ke	you can write that to file or whatever by reading chunks
07:49	rurumate	sm0ke: oh really? I'll chek if clj-http has that
07:50	rurumate	ok there is {:as :stream}, thanks for the hint
07:50	sm0ke	,(doc var)
07:50	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
07:50	TEttinger	I'm wondering what can be accomplished with code-golf to make as short of a gcd function as possible. you have 10 chars. Can it be done?
07:50	sm0ke	what!
07:51	sm0ke	hyPiRion: hey how did you figure that out?
07:51	sm0ke	hyPiRion: how do you 'think in macros'?
07:52	hyPiRion	sm0ke: first, think what you want the macro to expand to
07:52	hyPiRion	secondly, use macroexpand-1 to check if the expansion you do is correct
07:52	hyPiRion	well, that's essentially it for me really.
07:53	sm0ke	hyPiRion: so you think like a compiler ?
07:53	sm0ke	lol
07:53	TEttinger	BE the compiler
07:53	hyPiRion	sm0ke: well, sort of
07:53	sm0ke	hmm its weird, although i know macros would work on the code a data, but its easy to forget they can also execute code normally
07:54	hyPiRion	except you just transform one piece of code to another piece of same code
07:54	sm0ke	hyPiRion: you can have a macro just starting with (if) or (when) too right?
07:54	hyPiRion	yeah, sure thing
07:54	sm0ke	thats where its sucks to reason about it
07:55	sm0ke	i mean if it starts with `() as top level form, its really easy to reason about
07:55	sm0ke	otherwise not so easy
07:56	hyPiRion	indeed. It's usually very, very smart to use macroexpand-1
07:56	sm0ke	joc has some complex macros
07:56	sm0ke	yea sure thing
07:56	hyPiRion	or walk/macroexpand-all
07:56	sm0ke	nah
07:56	TEttinger	so someone challenged me to a FizzBuzz code golf competition (I used clojure, he used Chicken Scheme), and while this works on my bot on quakenet because I pre-import a numeric tower lib, it won't here. My solution is 70 chars, his is 78.
07:56	TEttinger	,(map #(if-let[n({15"FizzBuzz"3"Fizz"5"Buzz"}(gcd% 15))]n%)(range 101))
07:56	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: gcd% in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
07:57	hyPiRion	TEttinger: because 1.5 and onwards doesn't do read `hey%` as `hey %` anymore
07:57	hyPiRion	or 1.6, not sure
07:57	TEttinger	also gcd isn't defined
07:58	hyPiRion	oh yeah
07:58	TEttinger	,(map #(if-let[n({15"FizzBuzz"3"Fizz"5"Buzz"}(gcd % 15))]n %)(range 101))
07:58	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: gcd in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
07:58	TEttinger	so 8 chars
07:58	dav	if I (use) a namespace A that's already (use)ing a namespace B, shoulding I see both the functions of A and B ?
07:58	hyPiRion	,(defn gcd [a b] (if (zero? b) a (recur b (mod a b)))) ;; TEttinger, try now
07:58	clojurebot	#'sandbox/gcd
07:59	hyPiRion	dav: no
07:59	TEttinger	,(map #(if-let[n({15"FizzBuzz"3"Fizz"5"Buzz"}(gcd % 15))]n %)(range 101))
07:59	clojurebot	("FizzBuzz" 1 2 "Fizz" 4 ...)
07:59	TEttinger	yep
07:59	dav	hyPiRion: is there a way to ?
07:59	TEttinger	but I'm running a lazybot and can't define
08:00	hyPiRion	dav: https://github.com/ztellman/potemkin has some ways of handling that
08:00	derek_c	when you are on REPL, how do you clear the input? ctrl+c terminates the whole REPL
08:00	dav	hyPiRion: thanks.
08:00	dav	derek_c: Ctrl+L
08:01	dav	derek_c: then backspaces :)
08:01	derek_c	I mean, how do you clear the thing you already type in a line
08:01	hyPiRion	derek_c: C-a C-k
08:01	derek_c	hyPiRion: that works :)
08:01	dav	derek_c: Ctrl+C doesn't terminate the whole REPL for me btw.
08:01	sm0ke	fking jline doesnt let me use my awesome vim bindings
08:01	rurumate	How to consume and open InputStream? I usually call file-seq, but this is not a file, and it might not be newline-delimited
08:01	derek_c	dav: does for me
08:02	sm0ke	and moeover it braks everything else
08:02	rurumate	*an open InputStream
08:02	hyPiRion	sm0ke: I think they would be very happy to get some contributions
08:02	sm0ke	da da da
08:02	dav	derek_c: http://tiswww.case.edu/php/chet/readline/readline.html#SEC4
08:04	rurumate	oh I see, clojure.java.io/copy may help
08:07	sm0ke	is there a way to write a function in clojure which dispatches on type?
08:08	sm0ke	i mean a multivariate based on type
08:08	dav	sm0ke: you don't want to do (if (= (class.. ?
08:08	sm0ke	multivariate is the wrong term*
08:09	sm0ke	dav: no
08:09	dav	sm0ke: because it's ugly or because you have another reason ?
08:09	sm0ke	its ugly
08:09	hyPiRion	defmulti on type?
08:09	dav	sm0ke: maybe with core.match :guards ?
08:09	hyPiRion	or just, you know, protocols
08:10	sm0ke	what~ thats 3x ugly!!
08:10	dav	yeah I guess that is kind of point or protocols ;-)
08:11	dnolen	TEttinger: (map #({15"FizzBuzz"3"Fizz"5"Buzz"}(gcd % 15) %)(range 101))
08:11	dnolen	TEttinger: quite a bit shorter
08:12	sm0ke	or may be one can write a macro for me, defnt
08:12	sm0ke	some macro expert
08:13	dnolen	sm0ke: multimethods
08:13	dnolen	sm0ke: but protocols work just as well in the simple case
08:13	sm0ke	multiethods dispatched on types?
08:13	TEttinger	dnolen, maps have an else case when the lookup fails?
08:13	sm0ke	dispatches*
08:13	TEttinger	wow
08:13	dnolen	sm0ke: they can dispatch on anything the dispatch-fn returns
08:14	dnolen	TEttinger: yep
08:14	TEttinger	neat
08:14	sm0ke	hmm weird how come i never used multimethods
08:15	sm0ke	ah nice
08:15	sm0ke	multimethods is the way i guess
08:15	sm0ke	thanks
08:18	sm0ke	,(isa? 1 2)
08:18	clojurebot	false
08:18	sm0ke	whats so special about isa?
08:19	sm0ke	why are multimethds using isa??
08:19	lazybot	sm0ke: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
08:19	sm0ke	lol
08:20	sm0ke	unless the whole point was to dispatch on types
08:21	dnolen	sm0ke: ad-hoc hierarchies not connected to types
08:22	sm0ke	what?
08:22	clojurebot	what is exceptions
08:23	sm0ke	ok
08:24	sm0ke	later!
08:27	TEttinger	,(map #(condp(fn[x y](= 0(mod y x)))% 15"FizzBuzz"3"Fizz"5"Buzz"%)(range 101))
08:27	clojurebot	("FizzBuzz" 1 2 "Fizz" 4 ...)
08:28	TEttinger	even without the numerics lib predefining gcd, it can be done in one less char
08:47	alew	dnolen: the reason maps have an else case is because it is just using get underneath, right?
08:48	dnolen	alew: ILookup
08:48	dnolen	alew: which is what get uses too
08:48	oracle123	what's the differnt for the following 2? one has "do" while another doesn't
08:48	oracle123	(defn bond [] (send b #((Thread/sleep %1) (inc %1))))
08:48	oracle123	(defn bond [] (send b #(do (Thread/sleep %1) (inc %1))))
08:48	oracle123	the one with "do" work as (await b) it will wait
08:49	dnolen	,(nil (inc 1))
08:49	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Can't call nil, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
08:49	dnolen	oracle123: ^
08:49	dnolen	oracle123: w/o do you have function call on the result of Thread/sleep
08:50	oracle123	I just want to run the them one by one, so I need to use "do", correct?
08:50	dnolen	oracle123: sure, but you should understand why the first one doesn't work
08:50	alew	It always a shock when you realize you have java interfaces underneath everything in clojure
08:51	Kallikrates1	Can anyone recommend some resources on workflow (excluding emacs?)
08:53	oracle123	understand now: without do, the first position of the out most list is (Thread/sleep 100) which is evaluated as nil, and nil is not a sepecial form or function. thanks very much
09:01	jcromartie	blerg
09:02	jcromartie	having an argument with a teammate about how to do "dependency injection" in Clojure
09:02	jcromartie	because he doesn't like the fact that a route handler function has to know that a database exists in order to get business objects from the database
09:02	pyykkis	jcromartie: partial application?
09:03	jcromartie	pyykkis: that's a possibility
09:04	pyykkis	jcromartie: this was lot's of fun to watch :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZasXwtTRkio
09:04	goraci	hi there is there any way to update repo in maven ? any tools ? or native maven commands ?
09:04	pyykkis	(about scala, but with relevant topic)
09:05	tbaldridge	jcromartie: the more I use stuartsierra's component lib, the more I'm convinced that it does it right.
09:05	jcromartie	so instead of passing a db connection that the handlers use to call model functions, you pass partially-applied versions of the model functions?
09:06	jcromartie	that's exactly what I advocate tbaldridge
09:06	jcromartie	well, not specifically stuartsierra's component
09:07	jcromartie	IoC = taking arguments
09:07	jcromartie	and just a simple map of services
09:13	goraci	so any one familiar with maven here ?
09:17	alew	how do you accomplish reification with stuart sierra's components if you want to work at a lower level than the interface provides?
09:18	TEttinger	goraci, I have some basic experience making java projects into maven projects
09:19	stuartsierra	alew: Not sure I understand your question.
09:19	goraci	TEttinger: so any way to update repos in maven repo ? with depencies
09:19	katox	goraci: st like mvn clean install -U
09:20	goraci	katox: it will update all the packages ?
09:21	jcromartie	as nice as stuart's component library is, we don't actually have any lifecycle :P they are all outside APIs
09:21	jcromartie	i.e. no connection pools
09:21	katox	goraci: packages in project deps
09:21	alew	I'm probably abusing terminology, and the question I am asking is probably a victim of any abstraction, but how would I take advantage of lower level optimizations of an underlying implementation of a component when needed?
09:21	stuartsierra	jcromartie: You don't have to use the Lifecycle protocol; it defaults to a no-op.
09:22	katox	goraci: transitively
09:22	AeroNotix	hi guys/gals. I have a Java jar I built with ant and I want to use it in my Clojure project. Any documentation on how to do that?
09:22	jcromartie	stuartsierra: what is the advantage over just using a map if there's no lifecycle?
09:22	goraci	katox: and what about lein update-in ? it will not do the thing ?
09:22	AeroNotix	(I'm using/learning Lein, too, so any documentation including that would be great)
09:22	jcromartie	stuartsierra: except the ease of adding lifecycle when the requirement inevitably comes along :)
09:23	stuartsierra	jcromartie: The dependency-injection part still works. You can subdivide your app into smaller components. Instead of passing one big map containing everything to every function, you can pass exactly what each component needs.
09:24	vijaykiran	AeroNotix: one way would be to add your jar to local maven repo, and add dependency in your project.clj
09:24	AeroNotix	vijaykiran: I have the .jar in my project's lib dir
09:24	stuartsierra	jcromartie: It's not a huge benefit for small apps, but it helps when you have 20+ components.
09:25	jcromartie	I see
09:25	katox	goraci: unusure, I use this http://dev.xscheme.de/2013/07/upgrade-your-projects-dependencies-using-lein-ancient-wip/
09:25	alew	btw, is there any refactoring tools for clojure right now? I'm guessing not
09:25	vijaykiran	AeroNotix: in your lib dir do a maven install with your desired groupId and artifactId, that will install the jar into your local maven repo
09:26	vijaykiran	AeroNotix: then you can add a dependency
09:26	AeroNotix	vijaykiran: any docs on that? I'm not a java programmer so the maven stuff I don't understand
09:26	stuartsierra	alew: Sorry, still not understanding the question. Components are just records or maps, you can do whatever you want to them.
09:27	vijaykiran	AeroNotix: try http://www.elangocheran.com/blog/2013/03/installing-jar-files-locally-for-leiningen-2/
09:27	edw	A bit confused about this:
09:28	vijaykiran	AeroNotix: you need to customize the mvn install command in that post
09:28	edw	,(cond-> 42 even? inc)
09:28	clojurebot	43
09:28	edw	Yet:
09:28	alew	stuartsierra: I was confusing your library with another one which worked with protocols for the actual dependencies, sorry about that
09:28	stuartsierra	alew: Ah, I see. No worries.
09:28	edw	,(cond-> 42 (even?) inc)
09:28	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core/even?>
09:28	edw	What's up with that?
09:28	edw	Because:
09:29	edw	,(cond-> 42 (> 1) inc)
09:29	clojurebot	43
09:29	alew	,(macroexpand-1 (cond-> 42 (even?) inc))
09:29	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core/even?>
09:29	alew	,(macroexpand-1 '(cond-> 42 (even?) inc))
09:29	clojurebot	(clojure.core/let [G__127 42 G__127 (if (even?) (clojure.core/-> G__127 inc) G__127)] G__127)
09:30	alew	,(macroexpand-1 '(cond-> 42 even? inc))
09:30	clojurebot	(clojure.core/let [G__152 42 G__152 (if even? (clojure.core/-> G__152 inc) G__152)] G__152)
09:31	AeroNotix	vijaykiran: ok that's done, I think?
09:31	vijaykiran	AeroNotix: ?
09:31	edw	Ah, I see: the tests don't get the value threaded through. I misunderstood what cond-> does.
09:31	AeroNotix	vijaykiran: I mean, I did that and now I have the repo in the ~/.m2 directory
09:32	vijaykiran	AeroNotix: ok, now you can add it as a dependency to your project
09:32	edw	I thought (cond-> 42 (even?) inc) would expand to (if (even? 42) (inc 42)).
09:32	AeroNotix	vijaykiran: done, just need to figure out how to import classes from it now.
09:33	AeroNotix	vijaykiran: is there a way to enumerate the available classes?
09:34	vijaykiran	AeroNotix: just try importing one of the known classes in repl, it should also have auto completion
09:34	AeroNotix	vijaykiran: hmm
09:35	AeroNotix	in a lein repl: (:import [local/<TAB>] == nothing
09:35	stuartsierra	AeroNotix: If you really don't know the pakcage/class names, you can examine the contents of the JAR file with `jar tf file.jar`
09:35	AeroNotix	stuartsierra: cheers, checking
09:36	stuartsierra	There's no easy way to enumerate packages on the classpath, and I don't think any of the Clojure-based tools do so.
09:36	vijaykiran	AeroNotix: Do you know the source of the jar file ? "local" doesn't look like a plausible package name
09:37	AeroNotix	stuartsierra: ok I see that a class is available as "net/authorize/Market.class"
09:37	AeroNotix	and I'm trying to import it as: (:import [local/authnet.net.authorize Merchant]))
09:37	vijaykiran	AeroNotix: you don't need local/
09:37	AeroNotix	ok trying
09:38	AeroNotix	vijaykiran: class not found
09:38	AeroNotix	(:import [authnet.net.authorize Merchant])
09:38	stuartsierra	If the file name is "net/authorize/Market.class" you would import it as (ns (:import (net.authorize Market)))
09:38	vijaykiran	AeroNotix: use (:import [net.authorize Market])
09:38	vijaykiran	AeroNotix: the pacakge = folder path (with dots instead of /)
09:38	AeroNotix	vijaykiran: ok it RUNS
09:39	stuartsierra	That is (ns foo (:import (net.authorize Market)))
09:39	AeroNotix	stuartsierra: ahhhh good tip
09:39	AeroNotix	thanks both
09:39	vijaykiran	yw
09:40	stuartsierra	you're welcome
09:45	AeroNotix	so, what happens when two jars provide e.g. net.authorize?
09:46	joegallo	first one on the classpath wins
09:46	AeroNotix	oke doke
09:48	jcromartie	so, for example, using stuart's component, would you build a web app with the db as a component, and with the data model as a component that depends on the db? and with a web handler as a component that depends on the data model?
09:49	jcromartie	obviously then I'd need a lot more protocol functions for the components
09:50	jcromartie	or am I misunderstanding
10:03	ToBeReplaced	jcromartie: your connection pool is a component. by web handler, the pure function wouldn't be, but the jetty/tomcat/whatever instance would be
10:05	ToBeReplaced	your system map would include the handlers and the like, but they aren't components in the same way since they have no setup/teardown... you would be including them in the system map so that you can poke and prod easier for testing and simulation
10:11	stuartsierra	jcromartie: The component operations don't have to be protocols. Again, they're just records or maps, so they can just be containers for things like DB connections.
10:13	jcromartie	I think I grok it now stuartsierra
10:14	jcromartie	I'm more confused by the argument with my coworker here :P
10:14	jcromartie	basically he's tired of passing dependencies to functions
10:14	jcromartie	like, the web app literally depends on 6 other services
10:14	jcromartie	outside things
10:15	jcromartie	so at the top level it needs to receive all 6, and then pass down what is needed at different levels
10:15	stuartsierra	Sure, that's a common situation.
10:15	jcromartie	yeah
10:15	jcromartie	I just don't see the problem with passing arguments
10:15	jcromartie	not that I want 6 arguments
10:15	jcromartie	but pass a map of services
10:16	jcromartie	at least until you get to a function that only needs to coordinate one or two services
10:17	jcromartie	I don't see a lot of consistency though... the get-project function just takes the database and a key
10:17	jcromartie	but the create-project function takes the database, and 3 other API connections
10:17	stuartsierra	Yep. The 'Component' lib just helps create maps/records only include a subset of the services.
10:17	stuartsierra	Obviously, you have to refactor your functions to take the maps as arguments, and be consistent about keys/names.
10:17	clojurebot	No entiendo
10:18	jcromartie	I guess the question is where to draw the line at components
10:19	stuartsierra	Yes.
10:19	stuartsierra	You can go overboard and make too many small components.
10:20	gfredericks	this surprised me: ##(let [^double x 4/5] (Math/abs x))
10:20	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: abs
10:20	gfredericks	um wait
10:20	stuartsierra	gfredericks: type hints are not casts
10:20	gfredericks	stuartsierra: this worked in another process
10:20	gfredericks	the above result is what I expected
10:20	derek_c	has anyone here used lein-droid
10:20	derek_c	?
10:20	gfredericks	&clojure-version
10:20	lazybot	⇒ {:major 1, :minor 4, :incremental 0, :qualifier nil}
10:20	gfredericks	,(let [^double x 4/5] (Math/abs x))
10:20	clojurebot	0.8
10:21	gfredericks	stuartsierra: ^
10:21	TimMc	...huh
10:21	stuartsierra	gfredericks: That's probably just an implementation side-effect.
10:21	TimMc	Works By Accident?
10:21	stuartsierra	yep
10:21	stuartsierra	type hints are weird
10:22	TimMc	I don't see a mechanism for this to work, though.
10:22	TimMc	gfredericks: Might be worth compiling and disassembling it.
10:23	stuartsierra	For the record, I think it should be (let [x (double 4/5)] (Math/abs x))
10:24	gfredericks	oh for sure
10:25	gfredericks	,(let [x 4/5, ^double y x] (Math/abs y))
10:25	clojurebot	0.8
10:31	CookedGryphon	derek_c: yeah, I'm using it right now
10:32	edbond	Hello everyone, lein cljsbuild produce file with mtime Jan 1 1970. why? how to fix this?
10:32	derek_c	CookedGryphon: do you have to do a `lein droid doall` whenever you change something to test it out? It's quite slow
10:32	edbond	simple project 'lein new mies test; lein cljsbuild once' and file date is Jan 1 1970 :(
10:33	edbond	(spit) creates a file with current date, java is sun 1.7.0
10:33	CookedGryphon	derek_c: no, it opens up a repl on port 9999
10:34	CookedGryphon	derek_c: so you can connect to it from emacs/your editor of choice
10:34	CookedGryphon	derek_c: and apply your changes without even restarting the app
10:36	edbond	other files have proper date, .js content is also fine. Incorrect date only
10:36	derek_c	CookedGryphon: sorry I'm confused. how do you do it?
10:37	CookedGryphon	derek_c: what's your normal setup for editing normal clojure code?
10:37	CookedGryphon	do you know emacs or anything?
10:38	derek_c	CookedGryphon: I use Sublime
10:39	gfredericks	is there some reason why `lein test` would fail to hang due to thread-leak?
10:40	gfredericks	i.e., when I do something via `lein run` it hangs because I didn't shut some things down; but doing the same thing within `lein test` exits anyways
10:40	CookedGryphon	or do you use lein repl?
10:40	CookedGryphon	derek_c: hm, I'm afraid I don't know how to set up a repl/evaluate forms in sublime....
10:41	CookedGryphon	you can however do lein repl :connect 9999
10:42	CookedGryphon	and interact with it at least
10:43	derek_c	CookedGryphon: interesting.. thanks I will dig into it
10:43	gfredericks	ah I see `lein test` uses System/exit
10:44	xeqi	gfredericks: I would guess you have something happening on the agent thread pool. That stays alive for a bit after finishing and keeps the jvm alive
10:45	derek_c	CookedGryphon: are you aware of any open-source app that uses lein-droid? Wanna take a look for reference
10:46	CookedGryphon	derek_c: https://nightweb.net/
10:46	gfredericks	xeqi: I wasn't asking why it was hanging, I was asking why it didn't hang in `lein test` as well
10:47	gfredericks	the answer being `lein test` uses System/exit
10:48	CookedGryphon	derek_c: https://github.com/oakes/Nightweb sorry
10:48	derek_c	CookedGryphon: got it. thanks!
10:49	gfredericks	what's the community opinion on varargs for option-maps?
10:50	gfredericks	I thought there was mild dislike for it
10:50	nDuff	...it's nasty, but it's also a widely-accepted idiom?
10:50	TimMc	Definitely nasty.
10:50	derek_c	CookedGryphon: Is there a tutorial for setting things up like you said with Emacs?
10:51	gfredericks	what I was surprised by is that this page explicitly recommends _always_ using varargs: http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Library+Coding+Standards
10:51	TimMc	Let's compromise and use a pattern like (grovel 1 2 [:foo 3] [:bar 4])
10:51	TimMc	and everybody can be angry
10:51	TimMc	that's what compromise means right
10:52	Southy	http://www.braveclojure.com/ has a bunch of stuff for setting up emacs
10:52	pyrtsa	FWIW, it's much easier to pass a simple `opts` map on to another function, (f x opts), compared to something like (apply f x (apply concat opts)).
10:52	Southy	he has a gitrepo with a bunch of pre-installed stuff, which you can cherry pick if you don't like his settings
10:52	Southy	I like white text on black background but some people done
10:52	Southy	*don't
10:53	gfredericks	pyrtsa: yeah that's why I'd avoid the varargs
10:53	pyrtsa	Likewise.
10:53	pandeiro	anyone using swag to produce REST API documentation?
10:53	CookedGryphon	derek_c: so I'd recommend trying out the normal emacs workflow a bit, beyond that it's just a case of instead of doing nrepl-jack-in, do nrepl and enter 127.0.0.1, port 9999 when prompted
10:54	gfredericks	any guesses what is the best avenue for proposing changes to that page?
10:54	gfredericks	clojure ML? clojure-dev?
10:54	derek_c	CookedGryphon: I'm thinking about still using Sublime for normal editing, and use Emacs just to interact with nrepl. do you think that will work?
10:55	CookedGryphon	derek_c: not really, the power comes from saying "evaluate this form my cursor is on in my editor"
10:55	CookedGryphon	derek_c: if you want to avoid learning emacs, maybe try nightcode
10:55	CookedGryphon	that's got templates for android projects and should set you up with a repl and simple evaluation keyboard shortcuts
10:56	CookedGryphon	in a fairly "normal" editor
11:05	stuartsierra	gfredericks: opinion varies on varags vs maps for optional named arguments.
11:06	stuartsierra	In the past, Rich has recommended varargs for optional named arguments.
11:06	stuartsierra	But if a map makes more sense, for example if you're going to create a map once and reuse it, then use a map.
11:09	clgv	pyrtsa: gfredericks: you might be interested in https://github.com/guv/clojure.options
11:10	Wild_Cat	woo, just submitted a pull request for Cheshire. This marks my very first attempt at actually contributing Clojure code.
11:10	hyPiRion	(inc Wild_Cat) ; :D
11:10	lazybot	⇒ 1
11:10	Wild_Cat	:D
11:14	derek_c	CookedGryphon: I'm afraid I'm still missing something. So I got nightcode running and I got a repl. now am I suppose to type something into the repl to make the app reflect the changes I made?
11:14	gfredericks	stuartsierra: there's also the issue of composability
11:14	gfredericks	if I want to wrap a function with some partial set of options it's quite clunky
11:17	stuartsierra	gfredericks: yes, a common complaint about that style
11:18	gfredericks	okay, so it's not worth suggesting a change to the "always use varargs" recommendation?
11:19	stuartsierra	gfredericks: I don't think so.
11:19	gfredericks	okay, thanks
11:20	stuartsierra	you're welcome
11:20	CookedGryphon	derek_c: oops, seems I overestimated nightcode :( sorry, it doesn't have the ability to evaluate forms, I thought it did
11:20	CookedGryphon	derek_c: your biggest long term payoff will come from learning the emacs toolset, as that's what most clojure stuff is geared towards
11:21	derek_c	CookedGryphon: I see :(
11:30	pyrtsa	"In the past, Rich has recommended varargs for optional named arguments." <- Gotta love that as an argument. :o)
11:37	hyPiRion	Emphasis on "In the past" I guess
11:41	gfredericks	In the future, Rich has recommended writing all code comments in Zorblaxian to please the overlords
11:44	logic_prog	I normally fire up lein, from a shell, via "lein pdo cljx auto, run -m server.main" and then connect to it via emacs with M-x nrepl. Is there a way to launch the nrepl directly from emacs ?
11:45	justin_smith	logic_prog: do you need those exact lein args? if not you can nrepl-jack-in while visiting a file in the project
11:46	justin_smith	and if so there may be a way to make it happen still
11:46	logic_prog	I need those exact args
11:47	stuartsierra	pyrtsa: not intended an argument, but that was the source of the recommendation on dev.clojure.org/display/community/Library+Coding+Standards
11:47	justin_smith	logic_prog: to tell the truth, I prefer to run clojure in a terminal and connect, maybe a happy medium is making a shell script that runs that and putting it at the top level of your project?
11:48	logic_prog	justin_smith: I often find myself in the situation that something goes wrong in my clojure code,
11:48	logic_prog	I look at teh terminal for the stack frame
11:48	logic_prog	then try to navigate to the location.
11:48	logic_prog	If all this data was in emacs, I'd be easiser to "jum pto this stack frame"
11:48	logic_prog	perhaps there's a simpler way to solve this problem
11:50	justin_smith	hmm - M-x compile with the above lein command as the "compile command"? that should make any errors indicating file positions into clickable links
11:50	justin_smith	that is a hack though
11:50	dnolen	logic_prog: most of the development environment provide this for you
11:51	logic_prog	dnolen: what are you referring to? I'm using clojure-mode in emacs already
11:51	justin_smith	dnolen: yeah, nrepl-jack-in would do what he wants, except he needs a custom set of args that runs his app, and I don't think jack-in provides for that
11:52	logic_prog	dnolen: are you using a different ide ?
11:52	dnolen	logic_prog: I use cider mostly
11:52	dnolen	logic_prog: but Cursive Clojure is probably the coolest environment I've played around with
11:52	logic_prog	dnolen: isn't that some proprietary crap with intellij ?
11:52	dnolen	logic_prog: I'm just tied to Emacs for other reasons
11:52	logic_prog	dnolen: is it that goo d?
11:52	dnolen	logic_prog: "crap" lol
11:52	dnolen	logic_prog: it's amazing
11:53	dnolen	logic_prog: most people I know who prefer more human environment that don't care about random Emacs goodies have moved on
11:53	dnolen	s/human/humane
11:53	logic_prog	dnolen: I used vim for 15 years before recently switching to emacs in the past year due to clojure
11:53	logic_prog	dnolen: you're now telling me to use something with buttons and pretty pictures?
11:54	dnolen	logic_prog: no, but it's worth taking a look at
11:54	dnolen	logic_prog: I've tried nearly every setup just to see what different things offer
11:54	arkh	are closures discouraged in clojure or just uncommon?
11:54	logic_prog	downloading intellij free edition now
11:54	dnolen	arkh: they are common
11:55	dnolen	logic_prog: it's worth reading the Cursive introduction to get things setup, that's the main hurdle IntelliJ in it's default state is not that nice.
11:55	logic_prog	damn it
11:55	logic_prog	it rquires java 6, so can't work on java 7?
11:55	dnolen	logic_prog: you've also got light table which I have to say is a way better CLJS than Emacs today
11:55	TEttinger	hm?
11:56	logic_prog	dnolen: I do mostly cljx
11:56	Wild_Cat	so I'm reading the lib coding standards -- how exactly does one define a function with optional named arguments?
11:56	dnolen	logic_prog: got it
11:56	logic_prog	dnolen: how is light table?
11:56	TEttinger	java 6 is incompatible with 7 in what ways?
11:56	dnolen	logic_prog: great for CLJS, seems passable for Clojure
11:56	arkh	dnolen: are we talking about the same thing? Writing a function that creates local state which returns a function accessing that state? (<- I'm sure there's much better explanations ...)
11:56	TEttinger	logic_prog, it's still a little rough around the edges, but it's quite nice
11:56	dnolen	arkh: that's not what a closure is
11:56	arkh	dnolen: oh
11:57	dnolen	arkh: the only important part is capturing the environment
11:57	TEttinger	a closure is a kind of function that can access the environment/scope it was created in
11:57	jballanc	TEttinger: I don't think it has to be a function...could be a data structure just as easily
11:57	arkh	Tettinger: right - that's what I meant
11:57	dnolen	arkh: and no the pattern you're describing is not that common
11:58	TEttinger	jballanc, you could be right, though I admit I've never seen that usage
11:58	logic_prog	dnolen: let's make a deal
11:58	justin_smith	it is a block of code that captures bindings
11:58	jballanc	TEttinger: I think it's more common in scheme
11:58	logic_prog	dnolen: for each of {cursive, cider, lighttable} I try, you write a blog post :-)
11:58	justin_smith	let and fn are both closure creating
11:58	dnolen	logic_prog: no deal
11:59	justin_smith	in some languages let is built in terms of fn
11:59	TEttinger	dnolen, 2 blog posts then
11:59	justin_smith	(or lambda or whatever they call it)
11:59	dnolen	TEttinger: heh
11:59	TEttinger	I don't even know what your blog is!
12:00	logic_prog	dnolen: I installed cursive plugin + restart intellij
12:00	logic_prog	how do I create a clojure project ?
12:00	logic_prog	http://cursiveclojure.com/userguide/ui.html is rather light on "how the fuc do I get started"
12:01	dnolen	logic_prog: yeah it could be a little bit clearer but you can just open an existing project
12:01	dnolen	logic_prog: pretty sure there's a cursive IRC channel ask there
12:03	logic_prog	dnolen: alright, got it opened
12:03	logic_prog	dnolen: and now I'm missing my evil-mode keys
12:04	dnolen	logic_prog: it's a big world and people share your problems ;) http://plugins.jetbrains.com/plugin/164
12:04	logic_prog	dnolen: I am out of excuses and will not spend some time investiating
12:10	TimMc	TEttinger: http://swannodette.github.io/
12:19	pyrtsa	stuartsierra: Sorry, just meant to say it's probably better to point out the actual reasoning (" Callers should not have to wrap optional named arguments in a map literal") instead of who said it.
12:21	pyrtsa	I think the above guideline makes sense when you don't have many arguments, counting both the required and optional ones. When you do, it's better to pass in maps instead.
12:30	arrdem	'mornin
12:35	stcredzero	my prediction from last night came true
12:35	technomancy	nice; suddenly the percentage of clojure users using non-oss editors dropped to under 10%
12:36	stcredzero	technomancy: where are you getting the 10% from?
12:36	technomancy	stcredzero: from cemerick's survey data
12:36	technomancy	http://cemerick.com/2013/11/18/results-of-the-2013-state-of-clojure-clojurescript-survey/
12:37	technomancy	specifically http://p.hagelb.org/clojure-editors-2013.png
12:37	stcredzero	Oh, I thought you were referring to Light Table being GPL'd.
12:37	hiredman	«A proposal (by others) for some sort of Value»
12:37	hiredman	whoops
12:37	hiredman	stupid pasting
12:38	hiredman	"A proposal (by others) for some sort of Value Types seems to be a sure thing." -- Doug Lea
12:38	hiredman	yay!
12:38	llasram	hiredman: What does that mean?
12:40	technomancy	stcredzero: yes, that was the "suddenly" part =)
12:41	stcredzero	technomancy: from the URL, it seems this dates from Nov 18. I thought Light Table was GPL'd more recently.
12:41	technomancy	stcredzero: right; I'm assuming the numbers haven't changed dramatically in the last couple months
12:42	stcredzero	technomancy: so then it has nothing to do with Light table and you were being ironic
12:42	hiredman	llasram: long:Long::value types:regular jvm object types basically
12:42	technomancy	stcredzero: not really?
12:43	stcredzero	technoman: You gots some 'splainin to do.
12:43	technomancy	up till two days ago, there were ~18% of clojure users using non-oss editors
12:43	technomancy	now it is under 10%
12:43	darthdeus	how can i tell what's the current directory for (slurp "something") ?
12:43	rukor	dnolen: please what's the best way of making this work? https://www.refheap.com/22727
12:44	stcredzero	Ah, I see, you were treating both numbers as a gauge of the same thing.
12:44	dnolen	rukor: gist w/o explanations of what's going on isn't very helpful :)
12:44	rukor	dnolen: sorry
12:44	stcredzero	Interesting: "more than a quarter of ClojureScript developers don?t use a REPL at all" -- from http://cemerick.com/2013/11/18/results-of-the-2013-state-of-clojure-clojurescript-survey/
12:45	technomancy	sobering =(
12:45	rukor	dnolen: trying to use the rhizome function to build a component from derived data
12:45	technomancy	but given how complicated the process is, I can't say it's surprising
12:47	dnolen	rukor: there's quite a few things wrong at first glance in that paste
12:47	dnolen	rukor: row isn't returning a component
12:47	stcredzero	technomancy: entirely agree. ClojureScript REPL has been the epitome of stovepipe software. It's way to easy for it to fall over, requiring another litany to get it running again
12:47	llasram	hiredman: That's what I thought. Interesting
12:47	hiredman	http://cs.oswego.edu/pipermail/concurrency-interest/2014-January/012169.html is the email the quote is from
12:48	justin_smith	darthdeus: (System/getenv "PWD")
12:48	dnolen	rukor: what's the point of using om component facilities at all here, nothing is really based on app state
12:48	dnolen	rukor: just make a function that returns React stuff
12:48	darthdeus	justin_smith: i'm getting nil
12:48	justin_smith	darthdeus: you can use (slurp (io/resource "something")) to look something up relative to the classpath
12:48	technomancy	darthdeus: also (system/getProperty "user.dir") probably more portable
12:49	justin_smith	technomancy: ahh, thanks, I didn't know PWD wasn't universal
12:49	darthdeus	ah good, thanks :) getProperty "user.dir" works
12:49	justin_smith	where the hell do those other systems get off not being POSIX anyway
12:50	darthdeus	justin_smith: i have $PWD, but i guess it's not when i launch lighttable as an .app
12:50	rukor	dnolen: i see. Reusable components so not need to use om/component righr?
12:50	dnolen	rukor: nope
12:50	justin_smith	darthdeus: interesting, I intended the above to be sarcastic if it wasn't clearly so
12:50	dnolen	rukor: unless you need to interact with app state or local state, just use React stuff
12:51	rukor	dnolen: thanks. That solves my problem indeed.
12:51	darthdeus	justin_smith: i got the sarcasm :P
12:51	justin_smith	darthdeus: I just forget that anyone uses anything but a GNU/Linux stack sometimes
12:51	justin_smith	I mean why would anyone use a system I wouldn't use? silly people
12:51	technomancy	justin_smith: ignorance: sweet sweet bliss
12:51	darthdeus	OS X is more posix than linux :) at least it's BSD core :P
12:52	justin_smith	darthdeus: well all posix shell must provide PWD, which means whatever "shell" runs a .app is not posix
12:53	technomancy	there is a really great quotation I wish I could find about how posix compliance has as much to do with unix as the post-WWI restrictions on naval tonnage have to do with actual treaties
12:54	stcredzero	technomancy: there's probably an apt analogy to go with that having to do with battleships being obsoleted by aircraft carriers
12:54	darthdeus	justin_smith: i'm not running it through the shell, which is why this is happening i guess
12:54	justin_smith	technomancy: well if "is it UNIX™" is the standard, your answer is based on "did they pay for and pass the cert"
12:55	justin_smith	darthdeus: to me anything that launches a program is a shell - I guess that may not be a universal opinion
12:55	technomancy	justin_smith: true unix is in the heart
12:55	llasram	I'd get that on a bumper sticker
12:55	llasram	(if I were inclined to bumper stickers)
12:56	stcredzero	I can imagine that as alternative lyrics to "Grove Is In the Heart"
12:56	technomancy	I have debugged this problem so many times with Emacs users that any time someone says their PATH doesn't include their .profile customizations I am tempted to yell at them to stop using the gui
12:56	technomancy	especially considering the "official fix" from apple is to edit a plist.xml file, and I don't want to have that blood on my hands
12:57	bbloom	tpope: apparently you're going to get rich off of cljs support
12:57	justin_smith	YUCK 😛
12:57	technomancy	llasram: http://wondermark.com/175/
12:57	darthdeus	how can i pass a record constructor to apply?
12:57	darthdeus	(apply Thing. '(1 2 3)) doesn't work
12:58	llasram	technomancy: Heh. Nice.
12:58	justin_smith	darthdeus: hmm, (apply map->Thing [map]) should work
12:58	dnolen	justin_smith: darthdeus: you want ->Thing
12:58	justin_smith	map->Thing is automatically defined when you define the record
12:58	justin_smith	ahh, much better :)
12:59	dnolen	(apply ->Thing positional-values)
12:59	justin_smith	though using map->Thing may be a cleaner position to building it than apply ->Thing is, big picture
12:59	justin_smith	depending on what you are doing
12:59	justin_smith	s/position/option
13:00	darthdeus	hmm interesting, thanks guys
13:20	logic_prog_	is there any down sies to using cider vs nrepl?
13:21	stcredzero	You mean nrepl.el?
13:21	stcredzero	I thought CIDER was just the new name for nrepl.el
13:21	seangrove	stcredzero: It is, you're right
13:21	stcredzero	At last, I'm right about something!
13:21	seangrove	logic_prog_: I use cider, but I don't know if it's fully baked yet
13:22	logic_prog	correct me if I'm wrong, cider is only _client/emacs side_ ... it still uses nrepl server (i.e. lein) side
13:22	seangrove	The name change happened without updating it everywhere it should have been
13:22	stcredzero	seangrove: shouldn't that be "fully fermented"?
13:22	seangrove	I use it, and it's stable enough for me, but there's no major reason to switch over yet, from what I can tell.
13:22	technomancy	logic_prog: ritz doesn't work with cider yet
13:22	seangrove	stcredzero: Well played, sir
13:22	technomancy	logic_prog: but yeah, same thing on the server side
13:23	logic_prog	wtf is ritz ?
13:23	logic_prog	oh, it'sa debugger supporter
13:23	seangrove	I hope clojure gets a debugger/stepper similar to ritz that's a bit easier to configure/use and clients can easily connect to, a la nrepl
13:23	technomancy	be the change you want to see in the world.
13:24	stcredzero	Has someone named software wtf yet? That way someone can ask...
13:24	pandeiro	technomancy: do you know if cider has something akin to eldoc for using inside clojure-mode buffers? didn't nrepl.el have that?
13:24	seangrove	technomancy: True, true. One thing at a time
13:24	technomancy	not that I know of, but there is a license named that
13:24	technomancy	pandeiro: yeah, that works
13:24	pandeiro	what's the function called, do you know?
13:24	technomancy	it's in the readme
13:24	pandeiro	gah
13:25	seangrove	pandeiro: http://p.hagelb.org/mystery.gif
13:25	technomancy	lots of mileage to be gotten from that gif
13:26	jergason	the things that ghost has seen
13:26	pandeiro	must be a new cider thing, my emacs says that function doesn't exist
13:26	stcredzero	jergason: if gifs can be conscious...
13:30	stcredzero	So, how would one implement a cache that only keeps the last n items in Clojure?
13:31	dnolen	stcredzero: you might want to look at core.cache https://github.com/clojure/core.cache
13:32	edbond	om/reactjs question: What does "Danger: Discarding unexpected node" means? How to fix?
13:33	dnolen	edbond: that's a React warning, and I haven't seen that before
13:33	dnolen	edbond: might want to ask in #reactjs
14:16	arcatan	i'm running criterium benchmark for a function and during the warmup, criterium reports "classes loaded before n iterations" for almost every iteration
14:17	arcatan	what does that mean in practice? that my running my code causes classes being loaded
14:18	arcatan	+?
14:20	arcatan	hmm. i started a new repl session and it doesn't happen again.
14:21	arcatan	whoops, it didn't
14:23	jcromartie	OK, fine, tools.namespace, you win
14:23	tbaldridge	arcatan: I've seen that happen if you use eval
14:24	stuartsierra	jcromartie: :)
14:24	jcromartie	which is to say stuartsierra wins
14:24	jcromartie	:P
14:25	technomancy	defeated by defrecord?
14:25	jcromartie	technomancy: I want no part in your anti-record crusade
14:25	jcromartie	technomancy: but no
14:25	stuartsierra	haha
14:26	technomancy	just checking
14:27	gfredericks	(defeated :hamburger :fries)
14:27	gfredericks	^ meal reporting
14:31	jcromartie	(->> tacos (take 3) (map al-pastor) nom)
14:32	arcatan	tbaldridge: oh, right, we have some code generation stuff in there which i always forget about. not eval, but yeah.
14:33	hadronzoo	What is the best way to eliminate Ratio operations from a namespace. I know I can insert doubles into each calculation, but I was hoping for a cleaner solution.
14:34	octagon	stuartsierra: what's the best reference for understanding the tools.namespace reloading? I read your blog posts but I'm having a hard time knowing how all the pieces of my app act under reloading.
14:35	hadronzoo	Profiling has revealed that my code is spending a lot of time in Ratio division, but I don't need this additional precision--doubles are good enough.
14:35	hiredman	hadronzoo: if you start with doubles you will end with doubles
14:35	stuartsierra	octagon: the tools.namespace README goes into all the edge cases
14:36	hiredman	,(/ (+ 1.0 1) 2)
14:36	clojurebot	1.0
14:37	hiredman	hadronzoo: if you are seeing ratios it means you aren't using floating point numbers somewhere
14:37	hadronzoo	hiredman: I know, but many of the functions I use return Longs.
14:37	justin_smith	hadronzoo: also, if you have numeric bottlenecks, primitive-math and hiphip may be good options to consider https://github.com/ztellman/primitive-math https://github.com/prismatic/hiphip
14:37	hadronzoo	justin_smith: Perfect, I'll take a look. Thank you
14:38	coventry`	How can I add arguments to the lein command executed by nrepl/cider.el's nrepl-jack-in?
14:38	justin_smith	hadronzoo: many clojure operators are varargs, so you can change (* x y) to (* 1.0 x y) or (+ x y) to (+ 0.0 x y) to force doubles
14:39	hadronzoo	justin_smith: Yes, that's what I started to do, but this library is very math heavy, so it was getting ugly and tedious.
14:39	justin_smith	makes sense
14:39	steerio	justin_smith: isn't (* (double x) y) better? performance-wise just as well as idiomatically
14:39	justin_smith	and the unboxing / arrays will likely be a big gain
14:39	justin_smith	steerio: probably
14:39	technomancy	coventry`: M-x apropos-value lein-repl
14:40	steerio	hadronzoo: you could create your own operators with macros that would force doubles
14:40	technomancy	sorry, "lein repl"
14:40	justin_smith	steerio: that is part of what the above referenced primitive-math does (along with unboxing etc.)
14:40	steerio	sorry, didn't scroll back :)
14:40	hadronzoo	steerio: essentially converting the arguments using (double x)? I'll check those libraries to see if that's been done already :)
14:42	justin_smith	hiphip doesn't even make sense without unityped arrays, and primitive-math specializes everything for each numeric type - which is needed to guarantee things staying unboxed
14:42	coventry`	technomancy: Thanks. That was too much output to assimilate, but I found nrepl-server-command by reading nrepl-jack-in.
14:42	hadronzoo	justin_smith: primitive-math is exactly what I was looking for
14:42	justin_smith	cool
14:42	technomancy	coventry`: it's the third entry for me
14:44	coventry`	Huh, I get clojure-inf-lisp-command early on, but nrepl-server-command is on line 5584.
14:45	technomancy	coventry`: inf-lisp is for simplistic comint-style work; doesn't involve nrepl
14:46	coventry`	I know. I just mean that's the closest reasonably positioned match I got.
14:46	technomancy	oh geez, line 5584 of the apropos; I see
14:47	technomancy	ouch
14:47	technomancy	yeah, apropos-value must have some way to accept literal input, but I don't know it off the top of my head
14:47	Wild_Cat	I don't know who made it so Leiningen on Windows does support bash-type keyboard shortcuts, but whoever you are, you have my deepest thanks
14:48	Wild_Cat	(lein repl, that is)
14:48	Odin-	Readline, innit?
14:48	technomancy	Wild_Cat: that was trptcolin
14:48	technomancy	who is a hero of the highest order
14:48	Wild_Cat	,(inc trptcolin)
14:48	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: trptcolin in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
14:48	Wild_Cat	(inc trptcolin)
14:48	lazybot	⇒ 3
14:49	Wild_Cat	there. ^^
14:49	Wild_Cat	technomancy: nice.
14:49	technomancy	Odin-: can't link to readline from Clojure due to the EPL
14:49	Odin-	technomancy: Ah, right. 'course.
14:49	Wild_Cat	now the only thing that's missing is proper text selection support, but I don't think the Windows console widget can be made to work
14:49	Odin-	technomancy: In which case it actually is quite heroic.
14:50	technomancy	Odin-: well he's using an existing lib, but he's had to contribute a number of bugfixes to it from what I recall
14:50	Wild_Cat	(unrelated: wow, AGDQ now have the programmer of The Mask for the SNES speedrunning his very own game -- very cool)
14:50	jcromartie	I take it all back stuartsierra: tools.namespace blows up on my project
14:50	technomancy	grenchman on the other hand does link directly to libreadline
14:51	technomancy	but it doesn't have completion support =(
14:51	mdrogalis	lol. I take it back! I totally hate you dude!
14:51	stuartsierra	jcromartie: Sorry about that. I may be able to help with some more info.
14:52	jcromartie	stuartsierra: the first time I call (refresh) it tries to reload everything
14:52	stuartsierra	jcromartie: Yes, that's how it works.
14:52	jcromartie	and even though it loads a certain namespace first, another namespace which relies on that one then fails to load
14:52	stuartsierra	jcromartie: In what way does it fail?
14:53	jcromartie	say I have namespace A and B
14:53	jcromartie	B requires A, and (refresh) indicates that it is reloading A then B
14:53	jcromartie	but it fails loading B saying that A is missing
14:54	stuartsierra	jcromartie: I've seen this happen in some situations, usually when there are AOT-compiled .class files on the classpath.
14:54	jcromartie	ah, yes
14:54	jcromartie	it's my "main" namespace that the failing one depends on
14:54	stuartsierra	Unfortunately, I don't know how to fix the AOT problem. AOT does weird things to loading.
14:54	jcromartie	yes
14:55	stuartsierra	I generally restrict AOT-compilation to an :uberjar profile in Leiningen to avoid it when I'm working at the REPL.
14:55	technomancy	inc
14:55	technomancy	(inc *2) ; rather
14:55	lazybot	⇒ 1
14:56	davidbe	I'm struggling with clojure.lang.LazySeq. I read everywhere I should use doall, but that seems not to work. Any help? I map a function over a collection of hashmaps. code: https://www.refheap.com/22736
14:57	davidbe	where do I have to use doall?
14:57	gtrak	you don't have to use doall unless you care about when the calculations actually take place?
14:58	gtrak	ah, I see you have side-effects
14:58	hiredman	davidbe: lazy-seqs don't print well with println, use pr-str and pass the result to println
14:58	davidbe	hiredman: ok, I'll try
14:59	hyPiRion	davidbe: the issue is the `str`-call, not the println itself
14:59	hyPiRion	instead of str, use pr-str as mentioned
14:59	hiredman	although, you are missing some critical bits from your example, what you are actually calling, what arguments, etc
15:00	hiredman	it is hard to tell from what I assume is the example output what is printed and what is a return value returned
15:00	davidbe	hiredman, hyPiRion : thanks alot
15:03	davidbe	lazyness seems to be harder in Clojure than in Haskell - or I might miss a point...
15:04	bitemyapp	davidbe: that's an accurate sentiment.
15:04	hiredman	shrug if you are new to clojure then everything about it seems harder, no?
15:05	technomancy	davidbe: laziness in clojure only applies to seqs
15:05	gfredericks	and only the lazy ones
15:05	pyrtsa	hiredman: Well, I guess the eager-by-default of the Clojure language is what makes the difference. You have to jump through hoops like lazy-seq to make things lazy yourself.
15:05	technomancy	so some things are harder and other things are easier; for instance understanding when a certain piece of code will be called is much easier
15:05	pyrtsa	(eager evaluation, I mean)
15:07	hiredman	pyrtsa: if you say so, from the perspective of someone who has been writing lots of clojure for a few years it just is
15:07	pyrtsa	Besides lazy seqs, there's clojure.core/delay as well, not that it's used much.
15:07	davidbe	okay... good to know laziness applies only to some seqs and that clojure is eager-by-default
15:08	pyrtsa	hiredman: From the way davidbe put it, I supposed he had played a bit with Haskell as well.
15:08	hiredman	I should say from my perspective, other people with a similar amount of clojrue exposure are bound to have different perspectives
15:09	pyrtsa	hiredman: For someone with less experience with Clojure, the laziness gets more complicated when you actually want to prevent side effects from happening eagerly.
15:09	pyrtsa	E.g. chunked sequences can be surprising.
15:10	hiredman	chunked sequences are just gross
15:11	hiredman	I am sure if rich wasn't so into preserving backwards compatibility they would be gone
15:11	hiredman	well, maybe not, but I would hope
15:11	DerGuteMoritz	weren't they added relatively late? 1.2 or so?
15:11	pyrtsa	DerGuteMoritz: I think so, yeah.
15:11	tbaldridge	(inc hiredman)
15:11	lazybot	⇒ 32
15:11	hiredman	well, 1.2 was a long time ago
15:12	pyrtsa	I guess reducers tried to be a better improvement.
15:12	DerGuteMoritz	yeah but at least past the experimentation period
15:13	ivan	re: ICloneable in clojurescript, what's the point of cloning immutable objects?
15:13	gfredericks	hiredman: gone in favor of slower unchunked seqs?
15:13	stuartsierra	People usually run into trouble when they try to mix laziness and side effects.
15:13	hiredman	DerGuteMoritz: rich really does not like removing stuff once it has gone in, from what I have seen
15:13	gfredericks	I heard him reference java.util.Date as a good example
15:13	hiredman	gfredericks: right, use some other mechanism if you need performance (like reducers)
15:13	gfredericks	of not removing bad things
15:14	technomancy	hiredman: are chunked sequences part of the language semantics though?
15:15	technomancy	seems like the kind of thing you could safely remove without causing incompatibilities?
15:15	arkh	gfredericks: why is java.util.Date bad?
15:15	pyrtsa	Mutable.
15:15	hiredman	technomancy: if someone built custom chunked sequences types
15:15	technomancy	arkh: voluminous tomes could be written on the subject
15:15	teslanick	(inc technomancy)
15:15	lazybot	⇒ 89
15:16	gfredericks	technomancy: man that'd be the nerdiest pile of tomes ever
15:16	technomancy	hiredman: ah sure. they could be removed from all call paths without the underlying classes going away though.
15:16	technomancy	all pure-clojure-accessible call paths
15:16	gfredericks	this is the first time I've heard chunked seqs described as regretable
15:17	Odin-	gfredericks: Try browsing through the history section of a local library sometime.
15:17	pyrtsa	Speaking of Date, it keeps surprising me every time that the JVM (and thus, Clojure) has no standard way representing durations with a single value.
15:17	technomancy	pyrtsa: ms since epoch is not uncommon
15:17	technomancy	(System/currentTimeMillis) or whatever
15:17	pyrtsa	technomancy: Yeah, but it's milliseconds only!
15:17	hiredman	gfredericks: maybe you need to get out more :)
15:18	gfredericks	hiredman: that would explain it
15:18	arrdem	2038! the doom comes!
15:18	technomancy	pyrtsa: beggars can't be choosers
15:18	pyrtsa	Heh, I wrote my own already.
15:18	gfredericks	clojurebot: beggars \|can't be\| choosers
15:18	technomancy	At Least It's Not j.u.Date. (tm)
15:18	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
15:18	Ember-	there is also (System/nanoTime)
15:18	pyrtsa	Ember-: But they both return integers which could represent anything.
15:19	Ember-	longs, not integers but yes
15:19	pyrtsa	Sure.
15:19	DerGuteMoritz	wait, that would be like using plain maps to represent something!!
15:19	arrdem	pyrtsa: and you expectedm them to return what...?
15:19	arrdem	(inc DerGuteMoritz)
15:19	lazybot	⇒ 1
15:19	Ember-	anyway, java.util.Date is just plain horrid and it only starts from it being mutable
15:19	DerGuteMoritz	defrecord all the way
15:19	arrdem	(dec DerGuteMoritz)
15:19	lazybot	⇒ 0
15:20	DerGuteMoritz	arrdem: that was ironic, of course!
15:20	technomancy	hehe
15:20	arrdem	DerGuteMoritz: I can't tell if you're trolling me so I'm gonna stop voting.
15:20	arrdem	:P
15:20	DerGuteMoritz	:-D
15:20	pyrtsa	DerGuteMoritz, arrdem: Well, why not e.g. {:unit 1/1000, :value number}
15:20	gfredericks	(inc the fact that you can have spaces in things that you inc)
15:20	lazybot	⇒ 1
15:20	DerGuteMoritz	pyrtsa: ok!
15:20	arrdem	(inc roomba)
15:20	lazybot	⇒ 1
15:21	TimMc	Numbers without types or consistent expectations are fairly pernicious.
15:21	Ember-	pyrtsa: use clj-time, it uses jodatime internally which is great
15:21	TimMc	The number of times I've seen bugs from things being off by a factor of 1000...
15:21	DerGuteMoritz	(inc 1)
15:21	lazybot	⇒ 6
15:21	Ember-	with java 8 we finally get good date and time api
15:21	DerGuteMoritz	lazybot: wrong
15:21	pyrtsa	Ember-: I tried to. Turned out they skipped the handling of the exact duration type that I'm after!
15:21	arrdem	also lambdas...
15:21	Ember-	pyrtsa: which is?
15:21	pyrtsa	...because of overload ambiguities.
15:22	pyrtsa	Just a sec...
15:22	Ember-	I'm kinda sceptic that jodatime would have skipped that even if clj-time has
15:22	pyrtsa	It exists in JodaTime, not in clj-time.
15:22	Ember-	and it's safe to use jodatime in clojure since all it's objects are immutable
15:22	TimMc	pyrtsa: Send a PR.
15:22	gfredericks	clojure/west is going to have a pretty short talk-submission process at this point o_O
15:23	pyrtsa	TimMc: It can't be fixed without either using Java reflection or adding a whole different set of functions.
15:23	Ember-	no reasonable java developer uses java.util.Date either, why would clojure developers use it :)
15:23	pyrtsa	That's why, I guess, it isn't there.
15:23	gfredericks	,(type #inst "2014")
15:23	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
15:23	pyrtsa	Periods and Intervals are there in clj-time, Durations not.
15:24	pyrtsa	And Duration is the type that you use for measuring the elapsed time, i.e. pretty often!
15:25	Ember-	pyrtsa: (Duration. (time/local-date 2014 1 1) (time/local-date 2014 2 1))
15:25	Ember-	assuming Duration is imported and clj-time is in time alias
15:25	pyrtsa	Clumsy.
15:25	Ember-	not that much compared to (time/duration (time/local-date 2014 1 1) (time/local-date 2014 2 1))
15:26	Ember-	I understand where you are going to, but in this use case scenario there is pretty much no difference
15:26	pyrtsa	But then how about Instant + Duration -> Instant?
15:26	Ember-	the difference comes when you really want that duration function, not a constructor
15:26	Ember-	http://joda-time.sourceforge.net/apidocs/org/joda/time/Duration.html
15:26	Ember-	there you go
15:29	pyrtsa	Ember-: But what good is clj-time if (time/plus instant duration) doesn't work and I must resort to something like (.plus ^Instant instant ^Duration duration) to make the Clojure compiler happy?
15:30	Ember-	pyrtsa: for one, what would you expect from that plus operation?
15:30	Ember-	to me that looks like an illegal operation
15:30	pyrtsa	Another instant!
15:30	Ember-	you just cannot add a duration to an instant
15:30	pyrtsa	Wat?
15:30	Ember-	duration is not an instant
15:30	Ember-	duration is what it says: a duration
15:30	Ember-	an instant is an instant in time
15:31	pyrtsa	Ember-: NO! You cannot add two instants. What the *** would that ever mean?
15:31	Ember-	what you can do, is ask for the two instants which define the range of that duration
15:31	pyrtsa	Yeah right.
15:31	TimMc	Pretty sure you two are talking right past eash other.
15:31	pyrtsa	TimMc: I guess so. Sorry.
15:32	pyrtsa	Ember-: What are you trying to say? Am I misunderstanding Instant?
15:32	Ember-	http://joda-time.sourceforge.net/apidocs/org/joda/time/ReadableInstant.html
15:32	Ember-	it defines a single specfic instant in time
15:32	Ember-	like 22:30 GMT+3
15:32	Ember-	if timezones are added
15:33	pyrtsa	Yeah, and if you add a duration to it, you move the instant by that amount of time units.
15:33	Ember-	duration is made of two separate instants
15:33	Ember-	or one instant with some time added into it
15:33	pyrtsa	I don't think so and that's what I'm telling.
15:34	pyrtsa	Duration is just the number of (fractional) seconds.
15:34	Ember-	like that time I said earlier and for example 1000ms forward
15:34	pyrtsa	Period or Interval is more like what you're after.
15:34	Ember-	aww crap, you are so right
15:34	Ember-	<- ashamed
15:34	pyrtsa	:D
15:34	pyrtsa	And what I'm saying is it was stupid clj-time decided to drop Duration in favour of the other two.
15:35	Ember-	anyway, I think plus can handle for example Seconds
15:35	Ember-	or Minutes
15:35	Ember-	http://joda-time.sourceforge.net/apidocs/org/joda/time/Duration.html#toStandardSeconds()
15:35	pyrtsa	But that's different from what a duration is .
15:37	jcromartie	grrrr hiccup.form/drop-down is broken
15:37	Ember-	pyrtsa: you will end up into what you'd expect by using that
15:38	pyrtsa	Construting Period objects is just a bit clumsy when what you need is just ms, µs or ns.
15:39	Ember-	(defn duration-ms [a b] (- (.getMillis b) (.getMillis a)))
15:39	Ember-	:P
15:39	Ember-	yeah, yeah... I know
15:42	fgallina	Hi guys, I was playing with clojure a bit and found out a weird behavior that looks like a bug to me
15:42	fgallina	https://gist.github.com/fgallina/8341562
15:43	fgallina	can anyone shed some light on that thing?
15:43	TimMc	Yes, it's Cicindella sexgutatta, the six-spotted tiger beetle.
15:43	TimMc	Technically, it's a beetle, not a bug.
15:44	Ember-	http://geekwhisperin.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/bug-vs-feature.jpg%3Fw%3D618
15:44	TimMc	fgallina: What version of Clojure are you using?
15:44	gfredericks	,(keys [])
15:44	clojurebot	nil
15:44	gfredericks	&(keys [])
15:44	lazybot	⇒ nil
15:44	gfredericks	,(keys [1])
15:44	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry>
15:44	gfredericks	,(try (keys [1] :yes)
15:44	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
15:44	gfredericks	,(try (keys [1]) :yes)
15:44	clojurebot	:yes
15:45	TimMc	That's pretty weird!
15:45	gfredericks	that's the weirdest thing I've seen since the ^double thing this morning
15:45	fgallina	TimMc: 1.5.1
15:45	gfredericks	&(keys [1])
15:45	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException
15:45	gfredericks	&(try (keys [1]) :waaat)
15:45	lazybot	⇒ :waaat
15:45	stuartsierra	My favorite is ##(get "foo" :thing)
15:45	lazybot	⇒ nil
15:45	TimMc	&(try (keys [1]))
15:45	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException
15:45	hiredman	the exception is from the printing, not the actually operation
15:46	TimMc	hiredman: Oh jeez, that's right.
15:46	TimMc	&(class (keys [1]))
15:46	lazybot	⇒ clojure.lang.APersistentMap$KeySeq
15:46	TimMc	That's the laziest thing I've ever seen.
15:47	fgallina	uh oh
15:47	fgallina	didn't thought of that one.
15:47	stuartsierra	Here's another one: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1319
15:47	bellkev	I've seen some documentation (I think from Technomancy) that says it's not a bad idea to set :aot :all when building, say, a ring uberjar (to make the compiler check things, speed things up, etc). However, this just takes forever and hangs when I run `lein ring uberjar`, as opposed to finishing in a minute with the default :aot. Is it possible there's something obviously stupid in my project.clj that's making it hang?
15:47	gfredericks	TimMc: oh right because it just does (map key thing)
15:50	TimMc	bellkev: I wrote a script that can help debug this, hold on.
15:50	bellkev	TimMc: Sweet!
15:51	TimMc	bellkev: This script will sprinkle your codebase with print statements (stash or commit your work first!) so you can see uberjar or compile making progress through your namespaces: https://gist.github.com/timmc/7359898
15:51	ucb	,(try (let [a (keys [1])] :ok))
15:51	clojurebot	:ok
15:51	ro_st	dnolen: forgive the probably naive question, but why both om/transact! and set-state! ?
15:51	dnolen	ro_st: you need component local satte
15:51	dnolen	s/satte/state
15:51	Wild_Cat	,(clojure.data.json/decode "[1, 2, 3]")
15:51	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.data.json>
15:51	fgallina	given the exception is thrown at printing because this is lazy, take on that thing should bring the exception or am I missing something?
15:52	ro_st	ok. get/set-state for local-to-compnent, transact for global state
15:52	bellkev	TimMc: Awesome! I'll check it out. Thanks
15:52	dnolen	ro_st: yep
15:52	fgallina	,(try (take 1 (keys [1])) :ok)
15:52	clojurebot	:ok
15:52	dnolen	ro_st: components local state is very useful, thinking draggable / sortable and other things that have a lot of transient state
15:52	dnolen	ro_st: there's no point putting that stuff into the global state
15:52	ro_st	yes - like text inputs
15:52	dnolen	ro_st: the global state is your DB
15:52	TimMc	bellkev: In my case I found that compilation was just really slow. :-/
15:53	ro_st	ok, thanks, i got it
15:53	ro_st	ok. next one. why the async/map in the mouse example? could that not be simpler?
15:53	TimMc	fgallina: take is also lazy :-P
15:53	bellkev	TimMc:Hmm, I left mine going overnight and it never finished :P
15:53	ro_st	(i'm still totally green with async)
15:53	dnolen	ro_st: yes, but core.async is a good fit in general for Om, so just wanted to illustrate how to do it
15:54	ro_st	ok. so not for a technical reason, but for illustrative purposes. cool
15:54	fgallina	TimMc: and what about the let form ucb tried?
15:54	ro_st	i mean, could you not have used the async code in counters to simply put on a single channel, rather than use async/map
15:54	bellkev	TimMc: :aot :all compiles all dependencies too, right? Is it possible that the problem could be in them? And Does your script monitor that? (I haven't quite mentally parsed your sed arguments yet :P)
15:55	TimMc	fgallina: The value is never used by anything that tries to ask for its elements.
15:55	TimMc	Basically, it's a time bomb.
15:55	TimMc	bellkev: This just mucks with whatever directory you point it at.
15:56	fgallina	,(try (let [a (keys [1])] a :ok))
15:56	clojurebot	:ok
15:56	ro_st	tbaldridge: i really enjoyed your async talk. looking forward to digging into the macro deep dives, too.
15:56	bellkev	TimMc:Okay, got it, thanks
15:56	TimMc	It puts a println before every def or defn and makes the :require and :use clauses of ns noisy.
15:56	TimMc	Very basic.
15:56	ro_st	writing that macro must have been quite a challenge
15:56	dnolen	ro_st: the point of async map is to convert mouse data into a vector, it's just for fun
15:57	ordnungswidrig	ro_st: I guess he secretly used core.logic to derive the macro from the specification :)
15:57	ro_st	cool dnolen. juuust checking
15:57	bellkev	TimMc: When you say the project you were debugging was slow to compile, was it like, hours? If so, it seems like the :aot :all is only worth it under extreme circumstances...
15:58	ro_st	ordnungswidrig: gosh. that'd be something :-)
15:58	TimMc	Nah, 3-4 minutes. Annoyingly long for my development loop, but not a work-stopper.
15:58	mischov	What's the difference between APersistentMap and IPersistentMap?
15:58	luxbock	is this the latest stable version of tools.reader? I'm trying to get CLJS repl to work and Google told me to update it
16:00	bellkev	TimMc: Okay must have something really screwed up somehow...
16:00	ordnungswidrig	mischov: IPersistentMap is a java interface while APeristentMap is an abstract base implementation
16:01	luxbock	oops, forgot the link
16:01	luxbock	https://clojars.org/ibdknox/tools.reader
16:02	ro_st	dnolen: i watched the leanpub guy's react talk. the difference in browser perf is sick
16:02	dnolen	ro_st: it's amazing technology yes
16:02	ro_st	really great example, using the web audio api
16:02	dnolen	ro_st: we'll likely send patches their way in the future which will make React even faster for the Om model
16:03	stcredzero	Is there a big difference with robustness of the repl with Light Table? (Versus CIDER/nrepl.el in emacs?)
16:03	ro_st	that rocks. i'm amazed you can still squeeze more out of it
16:03	luxbock	https://gist.github.com/8341931
16:04	luxbock	any ideas what might be causing this? I'm running Windows / Cygwin
16:04	dnolen	ro_st: there's a lot of optimizations they don't do that we could use because they have a different design and also they have less information about what's happening
16:04	dnolen	ro_st: in the Om model we always know exactly what data in the app state changes
16:05	mischov	ordnungswidrig: If you were looking to match a map in an extend-protocol, would you use IPersistentMap or APersistentMap?
16:05	ro_st	luxbock: share your project.clj too, please
16:05	seangrove	ro_st: What talk was this?
16:05	ro_st	seangrove: http://facebook.github.io/react/docs/videos.html just beneath the podcast
16:05	luxbock	https://gist.github.com/8341986
16:05	ro_st	sorry, the one beneath that. 4th one down
16:06	seangrove	Oh yes, forgot that I had seen that one. It was definitely a fun presentation
16:06	ro_st	dnolen: so somehow, the persistent data structures kinda do most of the diffing work for them?
16:06	ro_st	or, it could
16:06	dnolen	ro_st: the transact! api gives us this information we track the path
16:06	ordnungswidrig	mischov: it depends
16:06	dnolen	ro_st: this means we know exactly what path in the render tree changed
16:07	ro_st	ah - so then that makes using transact! mandatory for global state?
16:07	dnolen	ro_st: no
16:07	dnolen	ro_st: you just won't get rocket fuel
16:08	luxbock	alright, now it works after I switched to using [org.clojure/tools.reader "0.8.3"] instead
16:09	ro_st	dnolen: gotcha. i ask because we'll likely use om with pedestal, and pedestal will deliver deltas to om to somehow render
16:09	ro_st	so our state won't use transact!
16:09	dnolen	ro_st: I don't know pedestal but I would say not to bother with whatever it provides to the front end
16:10	ro_st	it's a dataflow engine. messages in, transactions inside, deltas out
16:10	ordnungswidrig	mischov: there's also associative
16:11	dnolen	ro_st: yes I know - I'm just unsure of the integration, it might just work
16:11	dnolen	ro_st: or pedestal might drop the client stuff and simplify
16:11	dnolen	and let people use whatever they're going to use
16:11	ro_st	ya. looking at the 0.3 walkthrough, that's likely
16:12	ro_st	what's nice is that you get a block of deltas for the whole dataflow transaction, which om/react will happily handle in a single RAF
16:13	dnolen	ro_st: that's definitely an interesting possibility to explore, I don't intend Om to be so opinionated that you can't do what you want.
16:13	logic_prog	in cljs, what is the best way to check "if foo a DOM element" ?
16:13	mischov	ordnungswidrig: Thanks.
16:13	logic_prog	err, "is foo a DOM element" ?
16:13	dnolen	logic_prog: instance? should work
16:13	dnolen	logic_prog: (intance? js/Element foo)
16:14	dnolen	er instance?
16:14	logic_prog	dnolen: hmm, assertion passes, so it's not too tight, but not sure if it's restrictive enough
16:14	dnolen	logic_prog: don't know what you're trying to do so can't much more
16:15	logic_prog	dnolen: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/8342140
16:15	logic_prog	defenstve programming
16:15	logic_prog	setting attributes of a dom element
16:15	logic_prog	can I make it much more defensive than that?
16:16	dnolen	logic_prog: seems OK to me, hard to say w/o checking the mainstream browsers w/ that. Might be something more robust in Google Closure too.
16:16	dnolen	logic_prog: writing your own attribute setting code seems pointless and error prone to me
16:17	logic_prog	dnolen: what should I be doing instead?
16:17	logic_prog	i have a "virtual svg dom"
16:17	logic_prog	which I'm converting to a "svg dom"
16:17	dnolen	logic_prog: using Google Closure if possible
16:17	dnolen	logic_prog: if you care about cross browser issues, that is
16:17	logic_prog	no
16:17	logic_prog	this will run on chrome
16:17	logic_prog	and I don't care about anything else
16:18	dnolen	logic_prog: then I don't have many opinions about it
16:18	logic_prog	dnolen: if you wrote a blog post about google closure best practices, I'd read it :-)
16:18	dnolen	logic_prog: unlikely
16:19	dnolen	logic_prog: I only write about stuff that doesn't bore me can't be googled :)
16:19	danneu	Datomic question: Imagine a private-message system where you can start Conversations where convos have many Messages and many Participants (users). What would be a sensible way to track whether a convo has unread messages for each user (to display a "new message" UI)?
16:20	danneu	I was thinking of some an "Ack" entity with :ack/time, :ack/entity (ref to convo), and :ack/user (ref to user that read the convo at that time).
16:21	ro_st	you could store an ack list of participants on each message
16:21	ro_st	the tx time gives you your when
16:21	stuartsierra	danneu: You might be able to use a single ref attribute from convo to user. Transactions give you time.
16:21	ro_st	:message/acks
16:22	ro_st	if a user's on the list, it's read. if not, it isn't :-). assertion time is read time.
16:22	technomancy	gdev_: hey, thanks for the package. should prove a handy addition to my coffee travel gear =)
16:26	danneu	stuartsierra: So, when user1 clicks in to a Convo to read it, they are added to `:convo/acks #{user1}`?
16:27	stuartsierra	danneu: yes
16:27	danneu	ro_st: That was my first brainstorm, but I considered attaching the acknowledgement at the convo-level instead of the message level.
16:28	ro_st	but then you're forced to put a collection of collections on convo
16:28	danneu	stuartsierra: i've never set noHistory before, but would this be a snesible case for that?
16:28	ro_st	better on the message since you care about per-message acks
16:28	stuartsierra	danneu: not sure. once a user has read a message, you aren't going to record that they've read it again, right?
16:29	stuartsierra	I'm not sure how noHistory interacts with multi-valued attributes.
16:29	luxbock	in the ClojureScript Windows installation instructions it says to add a few lines to setup_classpath.sh, but I don't see such a file in my cloned repo
16:29	luxbock	has it been removed?
16:30	RMacy	Hey all if you're in Nashville and want to join a clojure study group I encourage you to join #nash-clojurians
16:30	danneu	stuartsierra: a Convo has many Messages. messages are "unread" if they were created after the last time the user ack'ed the Convo itself.
16:31	luxbock	Clojure complains that it can't find the cljs.repl namespace, which I'm guessing is because I haven't properly set the path for it
16:31	luxbock	but I'm not entirely sure how to do so
16:31	stuartsierra	danneu: might be easier to record acks on the messages as ro_st said.
16:32	luxbock	I set $CLOJURESCRIPT_HOME to the directory I cloned the repo to, but then the instructions for Windows/Cygwin talks about setting CLJSC_CP in the setup_classpath.sh file, but like I said I have no such file
16:33	dnolen	luxbock: there's just not many Windows ClojureScript users, you might want to ask your question on the ClojureScript mailing list
16:33	dnolen	luxbock: also patches for troubles or testing existing ones would be helpful
16:34	luxbock	alright
16:35	danneu	stuartsierra: would this kind of thing scale if i wanted to track acks for all Posts (Topics have many Posts) in the forum?
16:35	luxbock	how come installing CS is such a pita when Clojure on the JVM is simply a lein dependency
16:36	technomancy	luxbock: http://p.hagelb.org/mystery.gif
16:36	luxbock	:)
16:36	danneu	stuartsierra: this is definitely easier than what I had in mind though. thanks.
16:37	dnolen	luxbock: but I'm also confused as to what you are attempting to do
16:37	dnolen	luxbock: ClojureScript is a JAR, you don't need to set it up locally unless you're going to dev it
16:37	stuartsierra	danneu: Scaling is hard to predict. This talk may help: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/datomic-use-case
16:37	luxbock	hmm maybe I'm missing something then
16:37	dnolen	luxbock: you include ClojureScript like any other dependecy with lein
16:37	dnolen	luxbock: done
16:38	danneu	stuartsierra: yeah, i guess i will find out. that's a good talk.
16:38	gtrak	luxbock: if you're just trying to use cljs in your project, try lein-cljsbuild
16:38	luxbock	yeah I have included [org.clojure/clojurescript "0.0-1934"] in my project.clj file. do I also have to include cljs.repl separately? or how do I access the CLJS repl?
16:38	Wild_Cat	dakrone: is there any specific reason why the default parse-string behavior for Cheshire is to return lazy seqs for top-level arrays?
16:39	dnolen	luxbock: use lein-cljsbuild as gtrak suggested that's the standard tool everyone is behind these days for CLJS dev
16:39	Wild_Cat	s/parse-string/parse/
16:40	luxbock	do I have to use either Austin or piggieback to get a working CLJS repl with nrepl.el?
16:43	dakrone	Wild_Cat: it actually increases performance
16:45	amalloy	especially for infinite streams!
16:46	Wild_Cat	dakrone: Fair enough. Either way see my pull request for the fix to parse-string-strict, but it is surprising behavior still.
16:47	dakrone	Wild_Cat: I saw that, will commit it tonight after work, thanks for finding that! (dumb mistake on my part)
16:47	stuartsierra	luxbock: Yes. The Browser repl included with ClojureScript only works at the command-line.
16:47	Wild_Cat	dakrone: how do you feel about changing clj-http so that it does call parse-string-strict?
16:48	Wild_Cat	(yes, I know that returning top-level arrays is a terribad HTTP practice, but that's Riot's API, not mine :p )
16:48	dakrone	Wild_Cat: I am open to it, do you have a particular use-case in mind why?
16:49	Wild_Cat	dakrone: I'm making an HTTP request that returns a JSON array (see above) and getting a lazy seq (parsed with parse-string, not parse-stream) as a result, which I find highly surprising.
16:50	egghead	why would my cljsbuild not output a goog/base.js file?
16:50	dnolen	egghead: not needed if you use a concatenating optimization setting
16:50	Wild_Cat	I can work around it if you'd rather keep the seq behavior (it's a simple vec call), but I do feel that since JSON arrays are semantically equivalent to vectors, they should parse as such whereever possible.
16:52	egghead	dnolen: ya, no such optimization, weird: https://www.refheap.com/22740
16:53	dakrone	Wild_Cat: it makes sense, but at the same time, almost all of the abstractions for vectors will work with lazy sequences as well, is the type biting you somewhere?
16:53	Wild_Cat	(https://developer.riotgames.com/api/methods#!/310/1058 is the API I'm hitting, btw)
16:53	dnolen	egghead: you are using an optimization setting that concatenates
16:53	dakrone	(biting.. he's a cat... see my joke... haha...)
16:53	dakrone	(or she)
16:53	egghead	oh, WELP
16:53	luxbock	stuartsierra: ah I see, thanks
16:53	egghead	thanks dnolen
16:53	egghead	problem exists between keyboard and chair...
16:54	dakrone	Wild_Cat: we could also possible add a {:as :json-strict} option to clj-http
16:55	bitemyapp	dakrone: maybe nth'ing a large seq over and over?
16:56	dakrone	bitemyapp: yea, that would do it, I just want to understand what particular pain point is being hit
16:56	bitemyapp	dakrone: oh sure, I'm just contriving a reason a seq would be problematic.
16:56	Wild_Cat	dakrone: Direct indexing is biting me, e.g. ,([1 2 3] 1)
16:56	Wild_Cat	,([1 2 3] 1)
16:56	clojurebot	2
16:57	Wild_Cat	,('(1 2 3) 1)
16:57	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
16:57	dakrone	Wild_Cat: gotcha, that's exactly the case it would
16:57	dakrone	Wild_Cat: I propose adding a {:as :json-strict} option to clj-http, what do you think about that?
16:57	bitemyapp	Wild_Cat: I would avoid doing that, honestly.
16:57	bitemyapp	Wild_Cat: using vectors as functions is a good way to run into a lot of hard-to-trace type errors.
16:57	Wild_Cat	dakrone: works for me.
16:57	bitemyapp	Wild_Cat: this way lies madness and all that.
16:58	Wild_Cat	bitemyapp: The problem also exists with get
16:58	gfredericks	this is funny because I've often wanted it to be even lazier and parse maps lazily
16:58	Wild_Cat	,(get '(1 2 3) 1)
16:58	clojurebot	nil
16:59	bitemyapp	dakrone: I'm in gfredericks's neck of the woods.
16:59	bitemyapp	Wild_Cat: oh sure, seq isn't associative. Use nth?
16:59	arrdem	Wild_Cat: care... just go use nth unless you want a lecture on types and implicit behaviors.
16:59	dakrone	bitemyapp: gfredericks: yes, I'd love to have more laziness (especially maps)
16:59	bitemyapp	dakrone: seq of pairs?
16:59	bitemyapp	dakrone: lol :)
16:59	dakrone	it's doing laziness while maintaining performance that's the tricky part :)
16:59	gfredericks	bitemyapp: there are a few lazy map impls floating around
17:00	dakrone	but, that's why cheshire.experimental exists
17:00	bitemyapp	Wild_Cat: you should probably follow arrdem's advice. I'm pretty close to giving a lecture on how these type errors are unnecessary if you use a refined weapon from a more civilized age.
17:00	bitemyapp	dakrone: ahhh the old battle.
17:00	Wild_Cat	dakrone: well, if you're planning to make things even lazier the {:as :json-strict} makes even more sense.
17:00	hyPiRion	gfredericks: how would you implement lazy maps?
17:00	gtrak	bean is a lazy map
17:00	arrdem	hyPiRion: lazy key updates.
17:00	gfredericks	hyPiRion: https://github.com/fredericksgary/lazy-map
17:01	gfredericks	I think ztellman might have a better one
17:01	gfredericks	or at least a lib that makes them easy to make
17:01	dakrone	gtrak: bean has all kinds of issues though
17:01	Cr8	i didn't know bean was lazy
17:01	dakrone	bean maps, that is
17:01	gtrak	yes, I've hit a few
17:02	dakrone	I'd probably use ztellman's potemkin to implement it
17:02	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: Data.Map.Lazy in Haskell is strict in the keys, lazy in the values.
17:02	bitemyapp	which I think is a good balance.
17:02	Cr8	ah
17:02	Cr8	well now that I (source bean)
17:02	gfredericks	bitemyapp: that wouldn't suffice for my json parsing use case
17:02	hyPiRion	bitemyapp: yeah, that makes sense, but if you can have multiple keys mapping to different values, the whole shebang goes bogo
17:03	dakrone	Wild_Cat: can you open an issue for the :as :json-strict thing on clj-http so I don't forget?
17:03	TimMc	Yeah, I would be pretty surprised to see a JSON array parse as anything other than vector.
17:03	TimMc	There's some neat stuff you could do with streaming JSON using seqs, but that's a pretty rare use-case.
17:03	gfredericks	which is for parsing: {"foo":[1,...,100000],"bar":42}
17:03	bitemyapp	gfredericks: Data.Map.Lazy isn't really for "parsing", it's more of a generic data structure that's designed to respect the laziness of downstream thunks.
17:04	bitemyapp	gfredericks: you'd probably do something closer to what you have in mind for parsing. lazy association lists or something.
17:04	arrdem	hyPiRion: what? no. that's why it's strict in the keys, that allows you to escape a multiple keying case.
17:04	bitemyapp	Most interestingly, the strict and lazy versions share the same "Map".
17:04	hyPiRion	arrdem: was referring to the gfredericks impl
17:04	arrdem	hyPiRion: ah.
17:05	bitemyapp	but I'm glad people understood why I brought up the alternative approach.
17:06	squidz	i'm using react with clojurescript and need to use reacts componentSetState which assigns which data is to be used. I am also using clojurescipt with core.async. Does anybody know a good way to set this state with core.async instead of using a jquery ajax call? As far as I can tell I can only call funcitons with the data inside a go block but I somehow need that data pulled into this 'react compononent'
17:07	Wild_Cat	dakrone: done.
17:07	dakrone	Wild_Cat: thanks!
17:07	Wild_Cat	on a semi-related topic, is the source to clojurebot available somewhere?
17:08	bitemyapp	squidz: well have you used core.async in a manner such that it gets "fed" by callbacks?
17:08	dnolen	squidz: pass a channel to your React component
17:08	noonian	squidz: you create a function that creates a channel in a let block, then call your ajax call and in the callback push the value onto that channel, then return the channel from the funtion and call the function and read from it inside a go block where you set the state
17:08	bitemyapp	squidz: seems to me if that if you have any callbacks flying around, you can strip them down and make them feed channels which leads to functions running into the React part.
17:08	bitemyapp	squidz: part of the idea behind core.async is to keep your callbacks dumb/simple and make them do "less".
17:09	dakrone	Wild_Cat: https://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot
17:09	Wild_Cat	thanks!
17:10	Wild_Cat	final question while I'm at it, what would you consider the best way to store things like API keys, usernames and passwords that a piece of software requires to function? I'm thinking environment variables, but is there a better, commonly-accepted Clojure way?
17:10	squidz	dnolen: how do I work with that channel though then within react?
17:10	dakrone	Wild_Cat: I am partial to https://github.com/sonian/carica
17:11	squidz	how do I (<! chan) for example
17:11	dnolen	squidz: make a go loop when the component mounts that listens on that channel
17:11	noonian	(go (let [value (<! chan)] (.log js/console value)))
17:11	dnolen	squidz: the component will receive the channel as one of its props
17:11	bitemyapp	Wild_Cat: I'd like to reinforce what seangrove just said, if you're using something like Fay or ClojureScript, you probably don't need stuff like jQuery so much.
17:12	bitemyapp	Wild_Cat: I am partial to: https://github.com/weavejester/environ/
17:12	bitemyapp	Wild_Cat: environment variables > configuration files
17:12	bellkev	TimMc: I'm trying out your bash script now and realizing how non-portable sed is... (I'm using a mac)
17:12	bitemyapp	Wild_Cat: rigid configuration files are a terrible, terrible idea, there's already a modular solution to the problem. It's environment variables and system properties. I highly recommend you use environ.
17:13	squidz	dnolen: do you have an example? I am not sure how I would then take from a channel
17:13	Wild_Cat	bitemyapp: that's what I was leaning towards, yeah. Thanks.
17:13	Wild_Cat	Carica still looks neat, though. I'm filing it for future reference.
17:13	dnolen	squidz: I don't have an example handle, but you can look at the Om example and something similar should work for you.
17:13	dnolen	s/handle/handy
17:14	squidz	dnolen: okay which om example is similar
17:14	dnolen	squidz: just look at them, there are several that use core.async
17:14	bitemyapp	Wild_Cat: I produce unified "config" namespaces with environ that are superficially similar to Carica.
17:15	bitemyapp	Wild_Cat: the difference is that individual configuration options can be overridden at will by overriding the defaults at the command-line or via an outer layer of scripting.
17:15	squidz	okay thanks
17:15	bitemyapp	Wild_Cat: another bonus is that since it's just "code", you can pull in a third source of configuration settings, like zookeeper if one liked, for dynamically configuring your apps.
17:15	bitemyapp	using "configuration files" was one of the great sins the Django community committed.
17:16	bitemyapp	configuration is part of your deployment and provisioning, not your application code.
17:16	sritchie	cemerick: seeing a null pointer exception when I try to fire up my austin repl
17:16	sritchie	cemerick: are there any cljs version requirements for 0.1.3?
17:16	Wild_Cat	not really sure how it's done in Django (I'm more of a Pyramid guy).
17:17	cemerick	sritchie: only >= what's in its project.clj AFAIK
17:17	bitemyapp	Wild_Cat: sigh, settings.py
17:17	bitemyapp	Wild_Cat: it's uniformly horrific.
17:17	sritchie	cemerick: NullPointerException clojure.core/deref-future (core.clj:2108)
17:17	Wild_Cat	bitemyapp: settings.py? Oh no.
17:17	cemerick	oooh, yeah
17:17	sritchie	cemerick: that happens after I call "cljs-repl", and destroys my entire repl
17:17	cemerick	sritchie: 2s
17:17	technomancy	bitemyapp: it always cracks me up when I see python programs that use .ini files
17:18	bitemyapp	Wild_Cat: speaking of pyramid, I have a content negotiation middleware I use in my Ring apps that is similar to how Pyramid does tests.
17:18	bitemyapp	technomancy: it's disgusting.
17:18	Wild_Cat	(Pyramid does the .ini thing -- it's not awesome, but it's less disgusting than having your settings as a .py file)
17:18	cemerick	sritchie: Only place I've seen that prompted this: https://github.com/cemerick/austin/issues/37
17:18	cemerick	any chance you're using cljx too?
17:18	bitemyapp	Wild_Cat: https://github.com/bitemyapp/berossus/blob/master/src/berossus/rocks/your/data/middleware.clj#L44-L51
17:18	Wild_Cat	(also, more and more things are moved towards env. variables)
17:18	bitemyapp	Wild_Cat: .ini is worse.
17:18	sritchie	cemerick: yes
17:18	bitemyapp	Wild_Cat: you're missing the lesson here if you think .ini is better than .py
17:18	Odin-	22:13:16 *** shira QUIT Remote host closed the connection
17:19	Odin-	Uh.
17:19	Odin-	Sorry about that. term weirdness.
17:19	technomancy	that said, the fact that json explicitly refuses to support comments is the one reasonable defense there is for using .ini or .py for config
17:19	bitemyapp	arrdem: justice.
17:19	sritchie	cemerick: hmmmm,
17:19	sritchie	I'm using "cljx" in provided, and austin in dev
17:19	sritchie	let me move austin over
17:19	cemerick	sritchie: it's likely some gnarly dep order-sensitive resolution, but having the REPL die made it hard to diagnose.
17:19	Cr8	oh man
17:19	bitemyapp	Cr8: ?
17:19	Odin-	technomancy: Is there any reasoning for not allowing comments in JSON, or just someone going "because I say so"?
17:20	Cr8	we have some projects around here with a custom-hacked json parser that adds multiline strings and comments
17:20	cemerick	I'm actually hoping xeqi will take that one on, since he's the aether mofo these days. ;-)
17:20	Cr8	so that it could be used for configuration
17:20	Wild_Cat	bitemyapp: there's some things in that ini file that describe part of how the application works -- most of the ini file are, actually. They'not (necessarily) credentials/deployment configuration.
17:20	sritchie	cemerick: this, then that other AOT compilation issue with austin… must be doing some crazy stuff
17:20	bitemyapp	Cr8: :\|
17:20	technomancy	Odin-: as far as I know it's the latter
17:20	bitemyapp	Wild_Cat: it should just be code...
17:20	Wild_Cat	...and yeah, lack of comments in JSON blows.
17:20	cemerick	sritchie: which AOT issue?
17:21	cemerick	oh, 23
17:21	arrdem	bitemyapp: so that processor design post series. "Region has 821 lines, 6342 words, and 40422 characters."
17:21	technomancy	of course, it's up to the individual parser to honor or ignore that particular part of the spec
17:21	arrdem	do I qualify for book status yet?
17:21	sritchie	cemerick: https://github.com/cemerick/austin/issues/23
17:21	sritchie	yeah
17:21	Wild_Cat	bitemyapp: in a language like Python, with its limitations on importing mechanics, I disagree.
17:21	sritchie	cemerick: I did some exclusion mangling
17:22	Wild_Cat	(the ini file parsing produces fairly easy-to-understand errors.)
17:22	bitemyapp	Wild_Cat: there are ways to handle such things, the limited imagination of the Pyramid team not-with-standing.
17:22	sritchie	cemerick: I had to exclude austin from production to get it to work, leading to this: https://gist.github.com/sritchie/8343152
17:22	bitemyapp	arrdem: that's a lot.
17:22	cemerick	sritchie: you mean the :production profile?
17:23	sritchie	cemerick: yeah, from the uberjar profile
17:23	TimMc	bellkev: Oh, that's too bad. What's different about it?
17:23	cemerick	sritchie: doesn't just using :dev accomplish the same thing?
17:23	bellkev	Eeeh, lot's of stuff...
17:23	Cr8	oh wait
17:23	Cr8	i read it
17:23	bellkev	brew install gnu-sed did the trick though
17:23	sritchie	cemerick: what I mean is, I had to add these switches into my code,
17:23	Cr8	it's not even a modified parser
17:23	Cr8	it's a preprocessor
17:23	sritchie	since austin is only present in the :dev profile
17:23	sritchie	I didn't have to explicitly exclude in the uberjar
17:24	sritchie	cemerick: but because it was missing, and I still wanted it in my code (to inject the repl call in dev mode)
17:24	sritchie	I had to get fancy
17:25	sritchie	cemerick: so, that doesn't work
17:25	sritchie	placing it below cljx
17:25	cemerick	shit
17:25	bitemyapp	bellkev: yeah the BSD sed is a killer.
17:25	bitemyapp	driven me nuts many times over.
17:25	cemerick	sritchie: have you been using cljx + austin, and it just busted, or is this all new for you?
17:26	sritchie	I haven't touched the cljs repl in a while
17:26	sritchie	but it used to work
17:26	cemerick	that's a little nuts
17:26	sritchie	I'm on 0.3.1 cljx...
17:26	sritchie	maybe I'll try 0.3.2?
17:26	cemerick	might as well
17:26	cemerick	sritchie: can you gist your project.clj (msg if necessary)?
17:27	sritchie	oh, well then, it works in the OPPOSITE order as you mentioned
17:27	cemerick	I'm being trolled.
17:28	sritchie	not fucking with you
17:28	sritchie	let me try w/ 0.3.2
17:28	sritchie	as you have in the github issues
17:29	cemerick	this sounds like the nondeterminism mentioned in https://github.com/cemerick/pomegranate/issues/51, but there's no version ranges
17:30	bellkev	TimMc: So when doing either `lein ring uberjar` or `lein uberjar` it flies through all the print statements from your script and then hangs forever as before...
17:31	sritchie	cemerick: you're getting hit pretty hard w/ this stuff, looks like :)
17:31	bellkev	Maybe I should start sniffing around at what files that jvm is reading/writing? Maybe it's getting stuck compiling some del?...
17:31	bellkev	dep*
17:31	cemerick	sritchie: just chillin' @ on the shooting range
17:32	AeroNotix	should I put target/ into the .gitignore of a Clojure project. Seems like I don't need that in the VCS
17:33	technomancy	AeroNotix: yeap
17:33	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: yeap
17:33	bitemyapp	damn, you guys were all supposed to say the same thing.
17:33	AeroNotix	cool ok
17:33	AeroNotix	oh wait, lein already does this
17:33	AeroNotix	derp
17:34	mikerod_	has anyone ever encounterd "CodeCache is full. Compiler has been disabled" when dealing with AOT compilation?
17:34	mikerod_	"Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM warning: CodeCache is full. Compiler has been disabled."
17:34	mikerod_	to be more specific
17:34	hiredman	mikerod_: that is a jvm thing
17:34	sritchie	cemerick: oh boy. does this repl work behind https?
17:34	sritchie	the browser repl
17:34	sritchie	?
17:34	hiredman	mikerod_: the codecache is where jitted code goes
17:34	cemerick	sritchie: I have no idea
17:34	cemerick	should?
17:34	mikerod_	hiredman: indeed, this is what I'm reading. Is this expected from AOT code?
17:35	mikerod_	should I expect to need to bump up the cache size?
17:35	hiredman	mikerod_: it doesn't have anything to do with aot or not
17:35	sritchie	cemerick:
17:35	sritchie	[blocked] The page at 'https://local.paddleguru.com/races/MikeEatonsLaJollaCovePaddleboardRace2014/register' was loaded over HTTPS, but ran insecure content from 'http://localhost:50210/6767/repl?xpc=%7B%22cn%22%3A%22Ysu2eIXd7I%22%2C%22tp….txt%22%2C%22lpu%22%3A%22http%3A%2F%2Flocalhost%3A50210%2Frobots.txt%22%7D': this content should also be loaded over HTTPS.
17:35	cemerick	hoo-boy, wonder where the hardcoded scheme is
17:35	cemerick	sritchie: issues, please. :-( Cutting out...
17:36	sritchie	sure
17:36	mikerod_	hiredman: Interesting. We encountered it when switching to AOT and then running tests. So I just figured that was the cause. That could obviously be a wrong conclusion.
17:36	bitemyapp	hah, he has issues.
17:37	hiredman	mikerod_: it is completely about the jvm jitting bytecode to native code, and clojure compiles to bytecode aot or not
17:37	ordnungswidrig	sritchie: did you see https://github.com/clojure-liberator/liberator/pull/97
17:37	sritchie	ordnungswidrig: so a map can be the first option?
17:38	mikerod_	hiredman: that makes sense. would there be a chance that the jvm may jit some extra bytecode than normal, when the clojure code because aot-compiled. since there would be more bytecode "available upfront" in the JVM.
17:39	mikerod_	when the clojure code became aot-compiled
17:39	ordnungswidrig	sritchie: like that. however the proposed patch only adds this for defresource. But the idea looks good. Why did you need the advanced merge logic?
17:39	sritchie	did you see my example? I wanted to add content handlers for a bunch of diff content types in the base,
17:40	sritchie	then have the ability to override just one or two (but still let all the defaults work)
17:40	ordnungswidrig	ah, I will look at it again
17:40	hiredman	mikerod_: clojure does compile to byte code on demand though, when it encounters a form -> bytecode
17:41	mikerod_	hiredman: that was the distinction I was making. on-demand byte code vs all of it eagerly generated.
17:41	hiredman	mikerod_: right, clojure doesn't do that
17:41	mikerod_	except, I can't imagine why there'd be excessive jitting of byte code that wasn't being used
17:42	hiredman	mikerod_: everything is compiled before you start running, unless you are loading code at runtime, which would be just the same in aot
17:43	mikerod_	hiredman: yes, I was referring to loading new code at runtime. however, it does seem to be the same thing as in the aot case anyways.
17:43	ordnungswidrig	sritchie: I would solve this by having a base map for the media-typed dispatch and use (assoc base-handler "application/json" my-custom-function)
17:44	mikerod_	so, conclusion: This new HotSpot warning is quite mysterious
17:45	ordnungswidrig	sritchie: I don't see how the :success key is used in the example
17:45	sritchie	ordnungswidrig: that's my application's return value
17:45	ordnungswidrig	sritchie: oh dear
17:45	ordnungswidrig	sritchie: :-) It's late over here
17:46	sritchie	:) no worries
17:46	sritchie	yeah, media-typed takes the map -
17:46	sritchie	I would just use a map,
17:46	amalloy	mikerod_: i can't imagine that being AOT-related either. there should be the same amount of total bytecode
17:46	sritchie	but I can't define custom keys,
17:46	sritchie	and make my handlers functions of custom keys
17:46	sritchie	right?
17:46	sritchie	ordnungswidrig: I guess I could just jam some stuff into the resource,
17:46	sritchie	and have media-typed look up that custom key
17:47	amalloy	and running out of that cache space seems like it would be really hard to do. perhaps you have macros generating very large methods, or some very large constants/literals?
17:47	ordnungswidrig	you can, but I want to keep the option to make liberator strict on the accepted key in the future.
17:47	mikerod_	amalloy: yeah, that's what it is sounding like. On repeated runs, the warning actually stopped happening. So it looks like this is a "hiccup" of the HotSpot compiler.
17:47	mikerod_	amalloy: no large methods. I should look into the constant/literal thing
17:48	amalloy	how do you know you have no large methods? macros do surprising things sometimes
17:48	mikerod_	I do not believe so, but that'd make sense as problematic
17:48	amalloy	like, are you using midje?
17:48	mikerod_	no midje
17:48	mikerod_	but we do have a DSL going on
17:48	hiredman	I laughed
17:48	amalloy	i hoped you'd appreciate that, hiredman
17:48	mikerod_	so you're probably right, I need to look into large methods just as well
17:49	hiredman	there are aother options to turn on to print out compilation so you can see what is being compiled
17:50	mikerod_	hiredman: Clojure compiler options?
17:50	hiredman	jvm options
17:50	mikerod_	ah ok
17:50	ordnungswidrig	sritchie: Why would this not work? https://gist.github.com/ordnungswidrig/8343552
17:51	hiredman	you may also want to add :jvm-opts ^:replace [] to your project.clj
17:51	ordnungswidrig	ordnungswidrig: :handle-not-acceptable would be overridden in my-resource
17:51	sritchie	ordnungswidrig: imagine the base has 5 media types it supports
17:51	sritchie	ordnungswidrig: and I want to override only the json
17:51	ordnungswidrig	sritchie: ah, I see
17:51	hiredman	because lein doesn't pass jvm options good for long running server processes
17:51	mikerod_	hiredman: interesting, haven't seen that one
17:52	mikerod_	I'll try experimenting some with the compile-print opts. Seems like I only got the warning one time. Then again JIT may be unpredictable, I don't know enough to say.
17:52	jergason	where does leiningen put dependencies?
17:53	bitemyapp	jergason: leiningen doesn't put them anywhere, maven does.
17:53	bitemyapp	jergason:
17:53	bitemyapp	jergason: ~/.m2/
17:53	jergason	thank you, that is great
17:54	technomancy	s/maven/aether/ but yeah
17:54	technomancy	jergason: when in doubt, `lein classpath` will tell you
17:54	bellkev	TimMc: Thanks again for your script, but it looks like I was just being stupid... I had some "hello-world" style Datomic code pasted into my ring app that just did a `(def conn (connect uri))` when the namespace is loaded, which must have been preventing the compilation process from exiting... Now it finishes in about 2min
17:55	jergason	technomancy oh neato
17:56	ordnungswidrig	sritchie: what about this: https://gist.github.com/ordnungswidrig/8343552
17:57	sritchie	ordnungswidrig: that'd work, though it's a little ugly
17:57	sritchie	ordnungswidrig: but the merge-with would probably be confusing to folks
17:57	sritchie	lgtm
17:58	ordnungswidrig	sritchie: oh, that should be ommited
17:59	ordnungswidrig	sritchie: I think this way is more explicit to the user
17:59	sritchie	yeah, I agree
17:59	ordnungswidrig	brb
18:03	bitemyapp	ucb: http://kasperrosa.bandcamp.com/track/coronal-mass-ejection
18:04	ordnungswidrig	sritchie: I can also imagine this: https://gist.github.com/ordnungswidrig/8343552/57400363a3c633e7bcefd8d43d88cbd4c6e8f523
18:05	sritchie	yeah, that's true
18:05	sritchie	that does fit the pattern
18:05	ordnungswidrig	sritchie: so every function that takes a map, also can optionally accept a base map for the defaults
18:16	seangrove	,(keyword 1)
18:16	clojurebot	nil
18:16	seangrove	,(keyword (str 1))
18:16	clojurebot	:1
18:16	seangrove	Yikes.
18:17	arrdem	,(type :1)
18:17	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Keyword
18:17	arrdem	<::1
18:17	arrdem	,::1
18:17	clojurebot	:sandbox/1
18:17	mikerod_	:::1
18:17	mikerod_	,:::1
18:17	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: :::1>
18:17	seangrove	I think it's likely we're going to need to move over to edn. Lots of mangling happening between clojure->json->clojurescript
18:22	TimMc	bellkev: Ah! So it had an open thread or something?
18:22	bitemyapp	seangrove: interesting. What I've seen Fay/Haskell users do is share data-types between server and client, and use Aeson (JSON) to keep things a safe isomorphism.
18:22	bitemyapp	seangrove: doesn't cause any problems because the tests and types make certain it stays an isomorphism, no lossyness.
18:22	bitemyapp	seangrove: bonus? non-haskell clients/peers can participate if they want.
18:22	bitemyapp	it's just JSON after all.
18:23	seangrove	bitemyapp: edn would get us a bit closer in any case
18:23	seangrove	I was just worried because of the amount of data we load into the client, and the parsing differences between edn vs json
18:23	bitemyapp	seangrove: that's my point about the isomorphism.
18:23	bellkev	TimMc: Something like that. The connection was definitely keeping compilation from finishing. The build process needing to create a database connection during compilation is obviously stupid though, so I just need to make the Datomic connection handling slightly more realistic to expect it to AOT in a sane way...
18:24	bitemyapp	seangrove: "differences" are meaningless when it's a faithful invertible encoding.
18:24	bitemyapp	seangrove: using edn is bringing you closer to eval rather than invertibility.
18:25	bitemyapp	It is true that using edn here is probably going to play nicer in an otherwise clojure-y environment. Just seems like too much pain for a simple problem.
18:30	Cr8	bitemyapp: what does that do with numbers?
18:31	bitemyapp	Cr8: there have been multiple rounds of enhancements to how Aeson handles numbers.
18:33	bitemyapp	Cr8: https://github.com/bos/aeson/pull/156
18:33	bitemyapp	Cr8: Haskell gets used a lot in finance, relatively speaking, so there's a strong emphasis on sane handling of precision.
18:34	Cr8	sure, my concern is more taking the output JSON and trucking it through some non-Haskell tool
18:34	Cr8	many of which are wont to handle numbers as doubles
18:34	darthdeus	any idea why when i use basically any clojure web framework i don't see any content in chrome, but i do see it in safari?
18:34	bitemyapp	non-Haskell intermediaries are what they are, they doesn't really reduce the value of a higher fidelity parser though.
18:34	darthdeus	for luminus i saw it was sending weird content-length
18:35	Cr8	as long as that's the only parser/encoder I use
18:35	gregorstocks	Cr8: just don't use any integers greater than like 2**52, problem solved
18:35	Cr8	Cr8: and never need to represent NaN or +-Infinity
18:36	Cr8	s/Cr8/you/
18:36	gregorstocks	you can use 2**52 + 1 for NaN
18:36	gregorstocks	uh, well I guess 2**52 + 2
18:38	bitemyapp	Cr8: so because some shitty tools exist, we shouldn't use better tools? Are you serious man?
18:39	Cr8	more that that tool doesn't fit into the larger ecosystem of "JSON tools"
18:40	Cr8	if my data will get trashed if other tools touch it
18:40	Cr8	so I'd rather just.. not use JSON
18:40	Cr8	rather than use something that calls itself JSON and breaks when I'm not expecting it to
18:40	bitemyapp	Cr8: I think you might be missing the point
18:41	bitemyapp	Cr8: there is an ecosystem of financial tooling all using vanilla JSON but that have better designed types around the precision of the numbers.
18:41	bitemyapp	Cr8: some of those changes are focused on making Aeson one of those better JSON libraries.
18:41	bitemyapp	Cr8: nothing breaks here, I don't think you understand at all what I've shown you.
18:42	Cr8	so how do numbers that would get trashed get represented?
18:42	bitemyapp	Cr8: JSON is a text based format. What do you think enhancing the precision of the underlying number types means?
18:43	bitemyapp	Cr8: it doesn't change the output, it just ups the ceiling on what you can accurately represent without loss than if you used IEEE-754.
18:43	Cr8	sure, but assume there's some guy in the middle that parses the json, doesn't modify what's there but adds some stuff, and re-encodes it
18:43	bitemyapp	it doesn't actually change anything for people use hum-drum JSON parsers.
18:43	Cr8	that doesn't use these tools
18:43	bitemyapp	so don't be an idiot?
18:44	Cr8	hm?
18:44	bitemyapp	it doesn't hurt anybody to up the ceiling on the precision.
18:44	bitemyapp	If you're counting on the precision then the assumption is you also care about your data pipeline.
18:44	bitemyapp	you either care or you don't.
18:44	bitemyapp	you don't get to care about precision but then ignore where your data goes like a jackass and blame it on the use of a superior tool
18:45	bitemyapp	that's asinine.
18:45	gregorstocks	if you're emitting numbers with higher precision than IEEE 754 doubles, is it even valid json any more?
18:45	Cr8	I think what I'm debating is whether said tool speaks what is colloquial JSON
18:45	Cr8	and I would say that since it isn't
18:45	Cr8	what is the value of using JSON?
18:46	bitemyapp	Aeson is a standards compliant JSON parser.
18:46	Cr8	Which is why I said colloquial
18:46	bitemyapp	it even follows the standard on only allowing arrays or objects at the top level.
18:46	Cr8	I'll still get my data trashed if I store it in CouchDB or RethinkDB
18:47	bitemyapp	decode "1" :: Maybe Int returns Nothing.
18:47	bitemyapp	Cr8: fixing retarded data stores is outside the purview of Data.Aeson.
18:47	Cr8	sure
18:47	bitemyapp	Cr8: it bumped the precision. People are using this faculty in production happily.
18:48	seangrove	(meta (<!! (let [x 10] (go ^:yolo {:val x}))))
18:48	bitemyapp	Cr8: Number in Data.Aeson defaults to the precision of a Double.
18:48	seangrove	I love it
18:49	bitemyapp	seangrove: is the ^:yolo a war-cry?
18:49	seangrove	bitemyapp: Apparently - one cannot take the repl too seriously, apparently.
18:50	Cr8	I think my lament is more that the JSON standard isn't well-specified enough to guarantee that everything that can call it self "compliant" will safely roundtrip all "compliant" output
18:51	bitemyapp	Cr8: yeah, JSON is dumb, but we can still do our best.
18:52	technomancy	does "compliant" mean "barfs on input containing comments"?
18:52	Cr8	i believe you have to barf on comments to be a JSON parser yes
18:52	arrdem	technomancy: does EDN support comments? I don't think so...
18:52	gregorstocks	is there a decent way to diagnose "Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Keyword" beyond carefully rereading every single line of code that I've written since it last compiled? i'm pretty sure all my (ns) stuff is fine
18:52	bitemyapp	arrdem: wat
18:53	Cr8	https://github.com/edn-format/edn#comments
18:53	arrdem	bitemyapp: what. we only have (comment) and ;. I'd be shocked if either works in EDN.
18:53	gregorstocks	never mind i found it
18:53	bitemyapp	Cr8: from the standard, "JSON is agnostic about numbers. In any programming language, there can be a variety of number types of various capacities and complements, fixed or floating, binary or decimal. That can make interchange between different programming languages difficult. JSON instead offers only the representation of numbers that humans use: a sequence of digits. All programming languages know how to make sense of digit sequences even if they disa
18:53	technomancy	arrdem: no idea, but if it doesn't then it's dumb
18:53	Cr8	arrdem: ; works in EDN, and EDN also specifies discard. #_
18:53	arrdem	technomancy: apparently it does. we may be notation snobs.
18:53	bitemyapp	Cr8: I know this because I've had shitty edn parsers choke on both recently.
18:54	bitemyapp	Cr8: thing is, you're complaining about #FirstWorldProblems with JSON and I'm losing my fucking mind getting edn stuff to work.
18:54	Cr8	heh
18:54	Cr8	true
18:54	Cr8	I've got a C++ project here that I'm working on that has a JSON parser in it that will only hand me doubles
18:54	bitemyapp	Cr8: ugh, just use protobufs.
18:54	Cr8	which is actually causing me a problem
18:55	bitemyapp	Cr8: or Cap'n Proto :P
18:55	Cr8	I literally fought for us to use protobuf for like
18:55	Cr8	two months
18:55	bitemyapp	Cr8: cry
18:55	arrdem	bitemyapp: errytime
18:56	Cr8	apparently we might improve things "this year"
18:56	bitemyapp	Cr8: why is every anecdote I hear about your workplace a carnival of horror?
18:56	coventry`	What is the "clojure config" doing in (use '[backtype.storm clojure config])? Is it some way of accessing backtype.storm.config?
18:56	arrdem	coventry`: yeah
18:56	bitemyapp	man. use? that's old-school as fuck.
18:56	arrdem	coventry`: it's shorthand for (require '[backtype.storm [clojure] [config]])
18:57	coventry`	Oh, I remember now. And backtype.storm.clojure. Thanks.
18:57	bitemyapp	Nathan Marz gives no fucks, brooks no fools, etc.
18:57	arrdem	the various linter projects had better bitch about (use)...
18:57	bitemyapp	arrdem: good question. I should check kibit and eastwood.
18:57	bitemyapp	I've been banging the drum on that one for awhile.
18:57	seangrove	I wish technomancy would push for s simplified ns format, I don't know he's so hellbent on having 12 different ways to specify things in there
18:57	bitemyapp	arrdem: I get mad when Haskell code does a blank import.
18:58	arrdem	seangrove: what bugs you about ns? I think it's pretty straightforwards...
18:58	Cr8	bitemyapp: I have some theories. But I think at the end of the day most of it comes down to there not being agreement on what we're trying to build.
18:59	technomancy	seangrove: I'm too jaded to push for anything on jira
19:00	technomancy	you will have to find a younger slash less-disillusioned champion
19:00	bitemyapp	seangrove: I jumped ship, so don't look at me. 80% of the people on JIRA hate me as it is.
19:00	seangrove	bitemyapp: You do have a way about you with others
19:00	gregorstocks	to be fair 90% of the people not on JIRA hate bitemyapp
19:01	bitemyapp	seangrove: I take inspiration from my Greek master Diogenes :)
19:01	bitemyapp	gregorstocks: low-ball.
19:02	gregorstocks	well i'm including people who don't know who you are
19:02	arrdem	gregorstocks: you assume that people in ignorance are neutral
19:02	arrdem	gregorstocks: I contend that they are hostile
19:02	seangrove	arrdem: I was wondering about that point as well
19:03	gregorstocks	this warrants an experiment
19:03	arrdem	everyone in this channel is disqualified.
19:03	gregorstocks	let's send 10 random people (pizza delivery folks perhaps) to bitemyapp's home and see how many of them punch him immediately upon him opening the door
19:03	gregorstocks	sub-experiment: see how long it takes him to stop opening the door
19:04	arrdem	gregorstocks: this will take a while based on the ammount of take-out that bitemyapp orders.
19:05	bitemyapp	^^ truth.
19:07	Cr8	is that that bitemyapp orders very little takeout, or so much takeout that there is resource contention for his door
19:07	justin_smith	I am very interested to find out what the answer ends up being to this clojurescript / core.async question on SO http://stackoverflow.com/questions/21033068/core-async-and-10-000-processes-for-animation-what-is-the-actual-benefit-in-th
19:08	bitemyapp	justin_smith: you don't see it for yourself?
19:08	arrdem	Cr8: resource contention I suspect...
19:09	bitemyapp	arrdem: not even that.
19:11	bitemyapp	ucb: http://dumbsaint.bandcamp.com/album/something-that-you-feel-will-find-its-own-form
19:11	bitemyapp	Cr8: neither. I already know all the people that deliver food in SF. I've drained the pool.
19:11	bitemyapp	resource exhaustion! not contention.
19:13	danneu	what kind of lib would help me encode ["abc" "def"] to the url params ?to[]=abc&to[]=def
19:13	bitemyapp	danneu: Clojure
19:14	gregorstocks	danneu: you might be able to get away with just (str "?to[]=" (clojure.string/join "&to[]=" args)), if that's all you need
19:15	noonian	,(apply format "?to[]=%s&th[]=%s" ["abc" "def"])
19:15	clojurebot	"?to[]=abc&th[]=def"
19:15	bitemyapp	I'm pretty sure there's already a way to do this.
19:16	xeqi	cemerick: any summary of the problem?
19:17	justin_smith	danneu: apache.util.codec has a url parameter encoder, if that is what you are really looking for
19:18	justin_smith	sorry, I mean org.apache.commons.codec.net http://commons.apache.org/proper/commons-codec/apidocs/org/apache/commons/codec/net/URLCodec.html
19:18	justin_smith	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/net/URLEncoder.html?is-external=true actually just use this
19:19	justin_smith	(if url encoding is what you want, that is)
19:19	danneu	for url encoding itself i was just using http://ring-clojure.github.io/ring-codec/ring.util.codec.html#var-url-encode
19:25	alew	http-kit does param encoding
19:28	bitemyapp	danneu: :query-params {blah [1 2]} from http://localhost:3000/api/dump/?blah=1&blah=2
19:28	bitemyapp	danneu: alew is right, I just tested it myself.
19:29	bitemyapp	no idea if Jetty is nearly as cool as http-kit though >:)
19:29	bitemyapp	alew: way to beat me to the punch by being braver.
19:29	technomancy	jetty is pretty boring
19:30	hiredman	good?
19:30	technomancy	hiredman: boring is good
19:30	technomancy	for libraries anyway
19:32	alew	http-kit was built from the ground up to work with clojure, so it has a really nice interface
19:38	danneu	bitemyapp: i would've expected blah[]=1&blah[]=2
19:39	danneu	else i believe blah is either going to be 1 or 2
19:39	danneu	but i guess http-kit's decoder handles that
19:40	TimMc	So you want PHP-style parameters.
19:40	TimMc	PHP/Ruby/I forget what else
19:41	bitemyapp	danneu: why would you need []? That's friggin' ugly.
19:41	bitemyapp	if the name is provided multiple values, it's no longer scalar. Really simple.
19:45	tpope	simple except on the other end where now you have a sometimes-scalar-sometimes-collection
19:45	tpope	it's a not-wholy-unreasonable pragmatic compromise
19:46	bitemyapp	tpope: you should generally not breach cardinality barriers in your application
19:46	tpope	what does that mean
19:46	bitemyapp	partly because if you are forced to adopt merge semantics for multiple scalars->vector, you can end up producing data splits.
19:46	bitemyapp	tpope: scalars stay scalar and vice versa.
19:47	bitemyapp	this also means that any data type for which it is known that it is [], an instance of "a" should should be promoted to "[a]"
19:47	bitemyapp	but if you violate the defaults in either direction a scalar promotion to vector can produce a data split where a sequence of overriding scalars were intended
19:47	bitemyapp	that gets ugly ugly ugly
19:48	tpope	so is there a clojure idiom for that?
19:48	arrdem	tpope: no.. it's your application
19:48	bitemyapp	tpope: it's application and persistence semantics. Of course Clojure doesn't do anything to help you keep things straight.
19:48	arrdem	tpope: it's a type issue
19:48	tpope	I mean I have a parameter coming in that's nil if there were zero and a string if there was one and a collection if more than one
19:49	bitemyapp	tpope: if you had an HTTP/serialization interface in a language like Haskell it could keep things safe and handle promotion.
19:49	tpope	but we don't now do we
19:49	bitemyapp	no. grump
19:49	bitemyapp	tpope: String if scalar, coll if more than one? yikes.
19:49	bitemyapp	Seqable Strings lel.
19:50	technomancy	http://thisotplife.tumblr.com/post/58367979425/string-or-list-of-integers
19:50	bitemyapp	(inc technomancy)
19:50	lazybot	⇒ 90
19:50	bitemyapp	choked laughing
19:50	technomancy	bitemyapp: that blog is a gold mine
19:51	bitemyapp	technomancy: This PLT Life is too Lisp dominated and not representative of actual PLT. Sad. :(
19:51	bitemyapp	Common Lisper land-grab.
19:52	technomancy	continual status: http://thisotplife.tumblr.com/post/68065614838/when-i-hear-about-the-newest-database-or-web-framework
19:52	tpope	haha
19:52	tpope	(inc technomancy)
19:52	lazybot	⇒ 91
19:53	S11001001	bitemyapp: that was my impression
19:53	bitemyapp	arrdem: Haskell or doters?
19:54	bitemyapp	S11001001: a waste, but it's funny sometimes in spite of itself.
19:54	technomancy	clojurebot: mutable data structures is http://thisotplife.tumblr.com/post/63360807823/mutable-data-structures
19:54	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
19:54	dsrx	technomancy: lol
19:54	arrdem	hahaha
19:55	arrdem	technomancy: nicely done
19:55	dsrx	great blog
19:55	arrdem	https://infosecreactions.tumblr.com
19:55	egghead	hi dsrx
19:55	dsrx	sup egghead
19:55	arrdem	http://securityreactions.tumblr.com/
19:56	egghead	everyone, I just got the okay to write an open sores clj+cljs app at work hooray
19:56	bitemyapp	arrdem: aloria is great.
19:58	arrdem	bitemyapp: just finished the inteded topic range.. 8090 words.
19:58	arrdem	beer and dotaz.
19:58	bitemyapp	arrdem: noice. I WFM'd today, so I'm already at my desk! yey.
19:59	bitemyapp	technomancy: I don't even mind Akka for being Scala as much as I mind them seeming to have ignored half or more of the things Erlang and OTP did right.
20:00	bitemyapp	http://thisotplife.tumblr.com/post/58644976599/when-your-boss-suggests-switching-to-java
20:01	technomancy	bitemyapp: blissful ignorance on that one so far
20:01	bitemyapp	technomancy: the people happiest about Clojure at work were the people that had used Java on the job before.
20:01	seubert	hi dsrx egghead
20:02	dsrx	cobol is leaking...
20:02	bitemyapp	technomancy: even if they didn't intend on using it immediately, they were just happy to have a nice way to do JVM stuff.
20:06	egghead	:)
20:08	arrdem	bitemyapp: position assumed
20:09	bitemyapp	arrdem: you are not in mumbur :(
20:12	coventry`	If I "lein uberjar" a project with ":main clojure.main", why does "java -jar uberjar.jar clojure.main -m myns" fail with "FileNotFoundException: clojure.main"? Is there a way to work around this, so I can use clojure's main to specify different entry points to the jar?
20:13	technomancy	coventry`: you can't specify a main with -jar; use java -cp uberjar.jar ...
20:14	coventry`	Oh, right. Thanks.
20:14	technomancy	stupid java CLI behaviour at its finest
20:25	seangrove	bitemyapp: Mind rsvp'ing here and mentioning the topic of your lightning talk? http://www.meetup.com/SF-Clojurescript-Meetup/events/159485492
20:42	hadronzoo	How does one call the "/" (division) function from a different namespace? I need to refer to two different division definitions.
20:42	hadronzoo	"some.namespace//" fails
20:43	alew	seangrove: didn't know there was a cljs meetup in SF. I'll try to make it out!
20:43	technomancy	hadronzoo: that's technically not a legal function name
20:44	technomancy	yes, clojure breaks its own rules
20:45	hadronzoo	technomancy: I see. I'll alias it. Thanks
20:47	alew	technomancy: thanks for slamhound, extremely useful. do you think it could serve as a basis for a good refactoring tool? or does one already exist?
20:50	technomancy	alew: I don't think it's a good basis for refactoring; it's much too coarse-grained for the kinds of things you'd need for that
20:51	technomancy	"does this explode horribly when you try to compile it? [Y\n]"
20:51	alew	Ah I see
20:56	alew	is there a way to force cider to reload all namespaces?
20:57	TimMc	technomancy: I think 1.6 allows you to define /
20:57	S11001001	alew: like clojure.core?
20:57	alew	or I guess just the repl
20:57	alew	well, just project namespaces would be fine
20:59	alew	I guess tools.namespace is what I want to look at
21:03	testcloj	ha
21:03	testcloj	c
21:03	testcloj	when use required, why we need to quota it if use it standalone, but could not use quota if put it inside namespace?
21:03	testcloj	no quota here
21:03	testcloj	(ns test (:require clojure.string))
21:03	testcloj	but need quota here
21:03	testcloj	(require 'clojure.string)
21:06	TimMc	testcloj: This is because the ns form is a macro (or similar to one) so it can do the quoting for you.
21:12	technomancy	TimMc: define or refer?
21:16	logic_prog	is there a way, using core.async, to say: "resize buffer of channel if necessary, but force this message on" -- the reason I need this is as follows: ... I have a websocket, and for the "on-close" of the websocket, I need to push a message saying [:socket-is-closed-with-status status] (thus, just closing the chnanel is not enough, since I need to also give the status). Thus, I need some way to "force the message onto the channel,
21:16	logic_prog	is there a way to do the above?
21:22	ToBeReplaced	i don't understand prismatic/schema -- what does this get you that :pre/:post doesn't? not including coercion
21:25	ToBeReplaced	logic_prog: no... but your consumer could alt! between two channels, and your producer could only put on the second channel the "close" message before shutting both
21:27	logic_prog	ToBeReplaced: suppose I have (let [msg-chan (...) signal-chan (...)])
21:27	logic_prog	how do I ensure that alt! only reads from signal-chan after msg-chan is empty?
21:27	ToBeReplaced	close msg-chan, put to signal-chan, have the consumer use alt!
21:28	ToBeReplaced	if that's not clear, PM is okay
21:29	logic_prog	ToBeReplaced: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/8345977 <- hk = org.httpkit.server
21:29	logic_prog	this code is clearly still broken
21:29	logic_prog	currently working on lines 11-13
21:32	ToBeReplaced	logic_prog: i don't have httpkit experience so i can't quite follow it, i'm sorry
21:38	logic_prog	ToBeReplaced: I think your idea works, I just need to think it through.
21:55	TimMc	technomancy: Sorry, what?
21:56	TimMc	Oh, /. Uh, I thought you could define.
22:45	[Neurotic]	Hey, if I'm in a ClojureScript file in which I've defined a macro (so a .clj file), how do I import in a macro from another namespace. I keep getting "No such var: clojure.core/use-macros" - but I just :use or :require it doesn't seem to work?
22:45	TimMc	ibdknox: Congrats on the release! This is great.
22:45	TimMc	Now that the plugins are in place, I'll have my paredit (or write it myself.)
23:00	Tolstoy	How do you change the font in LightTable? :)
23:02	Tolstoy	Ah!
23:05	arrdem	TimMc: I think there already is one...
23:16	seangrove	Anyone have any guidance on clojurescript compilation failing with a heap space error? https://www.refheap.com/a0d7672674da0eb7724a10a5e
23:19	seangrove	Actually, seeing Error occurred during initialization of VM: Too small initial heap
23:19	amalloy	seangrove: that stacktrace looks like it ran out of memory while trying to construct an error message for some other problem
23:20	seangrove	amalloy: How strange ... I wonder what I changed to cause that.
23:21	amalloy	yeah, seems pretty weird to me too. i don't do any cljs, so take my analysis with a grain of salt
23:21	amalloy	but check out lines 53-64 of your paste
23:22	seangrove	Maybe I just need a good restart
23:22	amalloy	i guess it catches all Throwables
23:23	seangrove	amalloy: What is the "Caused by:" telling me here?
23:23	seangrove	Is the error on line #5 caused by the lines referenced in #52-53?
23:23	amalloy	man. allocating memory to produce an error message, after you've just caught an OOM, is a pretty sad thing for a compiler to do
23:24	amalloy	seangrove: the exception on 53 happened, then it was caught/wrapped/thrown in the exception at 52, and then that was caught/wrapped/thrown by the one on line 5
23:24	seangrove	amalloy: Ahh, I was reading it backwards then
23:25	amalloy	the problem here is that the exception on 53 had already caught some other, more useful, error, and then OOMed before it could tell you what the message from that error was :P
23:26	amalloy	IMO that wrapping-errors in cljs.analyzer should really be (catch Exception e), or at least something less blunt than (catch Throwable t)
23:26	bitemyapp	seangrove: I RSVP'd and mentioned what I was offering to give a talk on.
23:27	amalloy	bbloom, you around?
23:27	seangrove	amalloy: I just bumped up the memory with :jvm-opts ["-Xmx6g"] and seems like it's working-ish, thanks
23:28	seangrove	bitemyapp: Awesome, looks good
23:29	amalloy	$mail bbloom https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/clj/cljs/analyzer.clj#L274 is catching an OOM error, then attempting to allocate more memory to display it more prettily, so that the original stacktrace is lost. see https://www.refheap.com/a0d7672674da0eb7724a10a5e for an example stacktrace
23:29	lazybot	Message saved.
23:31	bitemyapp	arrdem: really?
23:31	bitemyapp	arrdem: I don't see it.
23:32	arrdem	bitemyapp: editing it now
23:32	arrdem	bitemyapp: do we have a policy on user pages?
23:32	arrdem	s/we/you/g
23:32	bitemyapp	arrdem: Not at all.
23:32	arrdem	bitemyapp: kay. hiredman now has a stub page.
23:33	bitemyapp	arrdem: I am hella confused, I don't see what you're doing on clojurewiki.com
23:33	arrdem	bitemyapp: hold please.
23:34	arrdem	(inc)
23:34	arrdem	(inc foo)
23:34	lazybot	⇒ 3
23:34	amalloy	huh. i just realized you can use '->> and 'let to effectively mimic haskell's "where": (->> (+ x y) (let [x 1, y 2])). like, i've seen people write that code before, and laughed at the silly trick, but only just now noticed it's the same as where
23:36	tbaldridge	but....ick.....
23:37	bitemyapp	tbaldridge: why the ick?
23:37	tbaldridge	It'd be really easy to shoot yourself in the foot with that, pick up a local from an outer scope or something.
23:39	bitemyapp	oogly. :)
23:46	arrdem	bitemyapp: there's your first bot page...
23:46	arrdem	bitemyapp: sure I missed something.
23:46	arrdem	$google foo
23:46	lazybot	[Foobar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foobar
23:48	arrdem	$help
23:48	lazybot	You're going to need to tell me what you want help with.
23:48	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
23:49	arrdem	~inventory
23:49	clojurebot	I am carrying 0) a poorly-calibrated inference engine, currently leaking 1) a well-worn copy of clojure 1.2 tucked deep away inside a classloader 2) the last shreds of what was once my sanity
23:53	bitemyapp	arrdem: thank you :)
23:57	arrdem	bitemyapp: so lazybot has a silly number of plugins
23:57	arrdem	and we never use them
23:57	arrdem	I will not attempt to document anything more than what I have seen used in here.
23:57	arrdem	&&(println "hell yes")
23:57	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: & in this context
23:58	arrdem	foo bar &(println "hell yes")
23:58	arrdem	is it && or ##.. I always forget...