#clojure – 2013-12-26

2013-12-26

00:01	logic_prog	when using cljs with :optimizations :none, where do I get goog.base and all the standard libraries to include ?
00:01	logic_prog	(I don't want the slow goog closure library to run on every time)
00:11	TEttinger	yedi: http://blog.malcolmsparks.com/?p=67 might be of interest
00:13	yedi	TEttinger: thanks, will take a look
00:20	bitemyapp	I just created my first Twitter list.
00:23	arrdem	bitemyapp: a what?
00:24	bitemyapp	arrdem: you can add people on Twitter to lists.
00:24	bitemyapp	arrdem: I created one called "Assholes" and the first inductee is @maccaw.
00:25	arrdem	classy
00:25	bitemyapp	arrdem: I realized I was juggling too many people in my mental "naughty" list, so I decided to start recording.
00:25	logic_prog	(compojure.route/resources "/out/goog/" { :root "/public/out/goog/"}) <- how do I make this recursive, i.e. handle /out/goog/bar/foo/test.js -> /public/out/goo/bar/foo/test.js ?
00:25	bitemyapp	arrdem: vidya?
00:25	logic_prog	right now, it seems to only do requests of pattern /out/goo/blahblah.js , where "blahblah" is a file, and does not include a directory within it
00:32	logic_prog	n/m, I'm a dumbass
00:32	logic_prog	it worked
00:34	arrdem	bitemyapp: yeah lemme kill the miner and I'll be down for a game
00:34	bitemyapp	arrdem: doters or dayzers?
00:34	arrdem	bitemyapp: doterz perferred.
00:34	bitemyapp	you got it.
00:35	bitemyapp	arrdem: mumbur
01:15	OneFourSeven	Anybody use clojurescript.test?
01:37	devn	https://github.com/weavejester/reagi looks pretty cool
01:38	devn	speaking of cool -- hoplon. my favorite thing in clojure land right now.
01:50	TEttinger	devn, wow, hoplon does look amazing
01:54	sm0ke	whats so great about holpon?
01:56	sm0ke	*hoplon
01:57	sm0ke	eh looks like clojure is not about having simple lightweight libraries anymore
01:57	sm0ke	we have giant frameworks now
01:57	sm0ke	like pedestal and hoplon
02:00	TEttinger	I couldn't really tell how big it is
02:53	logic_prog	in cljs, when using js/WebSocket. -- is there a way to specify a timeout? i.e. the max amount of time allowed for .-onopen to be called before giivng up and saying "fuck it, this doesn't work"
04:15	abaranosky	ho ho ho!
04:18	nones	,(def t 100500)
04:18	clojurebot	#'sandbox/t
04:18	nones	,t
04:18	clojurebot	100500
04:19	sm0ke	oh!
04:19	broquaint	sm0ke: AIUI pedestal is a collection of complementary libraries rather than a big ol' framework.
04:20	nones	,(ns user)
04:20	clojurebot	nil
04:20	nones	,t
04:20	clojurebot	100500
04:20	sm0ke	broquaint: collection of libraries + large learning curve = big ol' framework
04:20	sm0ke	,(defn inc [x] (dec x))
04:20	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.SecurityException: denied, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
04:21	nones	,foo
04:21	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: foo in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
04:21	sm0ke	,(def inc dec)
04:21	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.SecurityException: denied, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
04:22	nones	,(def foo (fn [x] (inc x)))
04:22	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foo
04:22	nones	,(foo 7)
04:22	clojurebot	8
04:22	nones	,(def inc (fn [x] (inc x)))
04:22	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.SecurityException: denied, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
04:22	sm0ke	ha!
04:23	nones	what about infinite loop?
04:23	nones	,(def foo (fn [x] (foo x)))
04:23	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foo
04:23	Raynes	&(#(recur))
04:23	nones	,(foo 7)
04:23	lazybot	Execution Timed Out!
04:23	ddellacosta	what are people using to figure out test coverage?
04:23	clojurebot	#<StackOverflowError java.lang.StackOverflowError>
04:25	nones	what difference between lazybot and clojurebot?
04:25	nones	#foo
04:25	abaranosky	I saw Caribou mentioned on the mailing list. Anyone done any coding with it?
04:25	sm0ke	, (inc 1) ; ##(dec 1)
04:25	lazybot	⇒ 0
04:25	clojurebot	2
04:25	nones	##foo
04:26	nones	smth ##foo
04:26	nones	smth ##(foo)
04:26	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: foo in this context
04:26	Raynes	&(while 1)
04:26	lazybot	Execution Timed Out!
04:26	sm0ke	lazybot is faster than clojurebot
04:26	sm0ke	, (inc 1) ; ##(dec 1)
04:26	lazybot	⇒ 0
04:26	clojurebot	2
04:27	Raynes	I highly doubt that to be true.
04:27	Raynes	The network is perhaps faster.
04:27	Raynes	Lazybot does significantly more sandboxing than clojurebot does.
04:27	sm0ke	yep, perhaps network is faster, where have you hosted them?
04:28	nones	##(def inc (fn [x] (inc x)))
04:28	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
04:28	abaranosky	Clojure on Caribou just doesn't have the same ring to it
04:28	abaranosky	... and the acronym wouldn't be as good as RoR either
04:28	Raynes	lazybot is hosted on a linode.
04:28	Raynes	In particular, the same one running 4clojure and refheap.
04:29	sm0ke	and clojurebot?
04:29	Raynes	I don't actually know.
04:29	Raynes	hiredman would know
04:30	Raynes	You'd have to ping 'em though, I don't think his client sees my messages.
04:30	sm0ke	may be he's using irssi
04:30	sm0ke	sucks to not have notification
04:30	Raynes	Well, maybe, but that's not why he doesn't see my messages :p
04:31	Raynes	He has had me on his IRC ignore list for approximately 4 years.
04:31	Raynes	I'm still not entirely certain why, but I was 15 at the time and likely deserved it.
04:31	Raynes	;)
04:31	sm0ke	hmm wow! when did you even start coding?
04:32	ddellacosta	abaranosky: I find that the impetus that some have (coming) in (-to) the Clojure community to seek out a monolithic convention-over-configuration web framework is misguided. </rant>
04:32	Raynes	Around 13.
04:32	Raynes	Haskell. Was interested in the Diablo 2 hacking community. Never actually hacked a single thing related to that game, but it got me interested for sure.
04:33	sm0ke	weird you started with Haskell? very uncommon choice
04:33	Raynes	The guy who essentially sits on top of the blizzhacker kingdom is a Haskell programmer.
04:33	Raynes	So I just copied whatever he was doing.
04:34	Raynes	Because he was clearly much smarter than me.
04:34	sm0ke	heh
04:34	TEttinger	so, the issue I had earlier with print-dup and read-string and such? thanks to justin_smith it works for 1d arrays, but now I need to have some way to reconstruct a 2d float array from some source...
04:34	sm0ke	smart decision
04:34	sm0ke	why are you not hacking in haskell anymore then?
04:34	sm0ke	is clojure better?
04:35	Raynes	I occasionally write Haskell still.
04:35	TEttinger	(defmethod print-dup (Class/forName "[D") [a out] (.write out (str "#=" `(double-array ~(vec a))))) ;; this works for 1D arrays, but I have no idea how to extend it to 2D
04:35	Raynes	I just rarely get a good opportunity.
04:35	Raynes	I don't think Clojure is 'better'. Clojure is nicer to you.
04:36	Raynes	Makes you feel like a friend instead of a student after a while.
04:36	Raynes	Haskell mostly just keeps you feeling like a student. Which is great, there aren't a ton of languages with a seemingly endless supply of things to learn from. It's just sometimes you just want a friedn.
04:36	Raynes	friend*
04:36	TEttinger	friedn works
04:37	TEttinger	clojure does use edn
04:37	Raynes	Hah
04:37	sm0ke	hmm true. clojure has indeed less barrier to entry
04:37	Raynes	Not that I ever stop learning things from Clojure ;)
04:37	ddellacosta	Raynes: nice, I like that explanation. Rings true with my experience (of Clojure, still a Haskell n00b): Clojure is forgiving of my mistakes, and helps me out in important ways that I always appreciate.
04:38	abaranosky	dellacosta: I've never felt any need for one myself, but am still slightly curisou about it... as if maybe I'm missing some line of reasoning
04:39	sm0ke	hmm clojure people are becoming spiritual i see
04:39	Raynes	We're just really emotional.
04:39	Raynes	(I actually sniffled, I am quite ill)
04:39	abaranosky	group hug
04:39	TEttinger	I LOVE YOU GUYS
04:39	ddellacosta	abaranosky: yeah, I hear you--that is totally valid. I still feel like I have some obligation to check out Caribou, as it may contain some good ideas. I don't mean to dismiss it out of hand.
04:39	Raynes	abaranosky: Hah! Bronchitus!
04:40	Raynes	Bronchitis too!
04:40	TEttinger	haha
04:40	sm0ke	Brochitijure
04:40	abaranosky	ddellacosta: I tend to think it has an aweful lot of LoC
04:40	ddellacosta	abaranosky: Lines of Code? Does it? I haven't even cloned the thing, I'll admit.
04:40	sm0ke	i hate that patch from technomancy for `jure` suffix!
04:40	abaranosky	my initial worry is that it is overengineered... but that's just worry.. not founded in experience with th eframework
04:41	TEttinger	so anyone have any idea on how best to deconstruct/reconstruct 2D arrays into strings?
04:41	TEttinger	just mapv vec to deconstruct, then...
04:41	ddellacosta	abaranosky: yeah. I mean, one thing I've found to be true up to now in Clojure is that concise, "surgically applied" libraries really end up being more productive than larger all-encompassing libs. I end up scraping away cruft to get at the useful parts.
04:41	abaranosky	jure suffix is horrific
04:42	sm0ke	are you saying clojure is awful name?
04:42	TEttinger	haha
04:42	ddellacosta	can we agree that it is awkward? I still feel funny saying it out loud
04:42	abaranosky	when you're as l33t as Clojure the language you can call yourself whatever you want
04:42	ddellacosta	I just end up saying "Closure" most of the time.
04:42	ddellacosta	heh
04:43	Raynes	Well.
04:43	Raynes	Good.
04:43	Raynes	Because that's how it is pronounced.
04:43	abaranosky	yep
04:43	abaranosky	they are pronounce the same
04:43	sm0ke	is clojure infulenced by clozure?
04:43	Raynes	ddellacosta doubts himself too much.
04:43	sm0ke	clozure is definitely better!
04:44	ddellacosta	Raynes: is it? Great. I don't hang out with folks in person (kinda hard being thousands of miles away from conferences/community), so I miss these kinds of things...
04:44	Raynes	ddellacosta: Yes, and REPL is not pronounced as an acronym. I learned this the hard way.
04:44	ddellacosta	Raynes: well, ya know...there's always a lot to doubt, heh.
04:44	abaranosky	Raynes: hehe, that's pretty funny :)
04:44	sm0ke	since clojure is not tied to just JVM anymore can we call it `closure` instead?
04:45	abaranosky	I remember when I first heard someone call SQL "seekwell"
04:45	ddellacosta	Raynes: ah...yeah, that one I was always too lazy to say as an acronym anyways.
04:45	TEttinger	javascript has a j too
04:45	sm0ke	well clojure is on .net too
04:45	sm0ke	cloj.ure
04:45	TEttinger	you mean .jet
04:45	ddellacosta	sm0ke: I thought I remember Rich Hickey stating that part of the reason he chose it was for search-ability
04:45	Raynes	TEttinger: I'm gonna need you to get off IRC.
04:45	Raynes	Before you hurt yourself and those around you
04:45	TEttinger	:-(
04:46	abaranosky	so is Clojure officially mainstream yet?
04:46	sm0ke	yea well python is searchable too.
04:46	ddellacosta	TEttinger: I don't know the answer to your question, btw, but maybe turn 'em into vectors and pr-str 'em? :-/
04:46	ddellacosta	sorry, I got nothin'
04:46	ddellacosta	abaranosky: I feel like the answer is no
04:46	TEttinger	yeah the real problem is constructing the 2d array from a string of sorts
04:47	TEttinger	I can use #=
04:47	ddellacosta	TEttinger: huh, is there anything in Clojure like the #js token in ClojureScript? That is a super awesome thing right there.
04:48	ddellacosta	TEttinger: that could theoretically solve your problem, depending on how your data is structured
04:48	ddellacosta	...if you were using ClojureScript
04:48	TEttinger	it's just a 2d array
04:48	TEttinger	floats
04:49	abaranosky	TEttinger: I don't really undestand your problem spec. If I did, maybe I'd kow how to solve it
04:50	TEttinger	ok uh... so I have a 2D float array in each of a number of maps.
04:51	TEttinger	I want to be able to pr-str the maps, with everything inside them, then read-string back the string later
04:51	TEttinger	I can do this for 1d arrays
04:51	TEttinger	(defmethod print-dup (Class/forName "[D") [a out] (.write out (str "#=" `(double-array ~(vec a))))) ;; like so
04:52	TEttinger	the key there is the `(double-array ~(vec a))
04:52	abaranosky	I see... and you can't just cheat and store them as vectors?
04:52	TEttinger	well I don't really know how to form a 2D array without doing a lot of setting
04:53	TEttinger	and I do store as vectors I think
04:53	TEttinger	but it's the restoring that's tricky
04:56	sm0ke	Hey guys, is it possible to have a provided dependency in github and ask travis to build against different versions of it?
04:57	sm0ke	is some doing something similar for their clojure projects?
04:57	TEttinger	http://amalloy.hubpages.com/hub/Dont-use-XML-JSON-for-Clojure-only-persistence-messaging gives some background btw
04:57	sm0ke	someone*
04:59	ddima	,(pr-str (map vec (into-array [(float-array [23.32 42.23]) (float-array [1.3 2.4])])))
04:59	clojurebot	"([23.32 42.23] [1.3 2.4])"
04:59	ddima	hm
05:06	ddima	slightly OT, but would you recommend a lenovo T530 with the 1080p display? I hate glossy displays, so macbook pro is a no go, but the cheaper displays like on my personal L530 are not very convincing either (dead pixels after 6 months, contrast etc)
05:10	abaranosky	ddima: you killed the convo with your off-topic stuff
05:10	abaranosky	just messing with you.... I used to hate glossy monitors as well
05:11	abaranosky	I've got a macbook pro for work though, and either they have gotten less glossy, or i've gotten more used to it
05:12	TEttinger	ddima, my brother loves his lenovo T series, it is older by a bit though
05:12	ddima	abaranosky: I used osx for a couple of years before and now I'm very happy with my 'awesome' setup, so thats another thing
05:12	ddima	yeah, the older ones are good, but there's at least some criticism of the recent models
05:12	Raynes	I'd just spray paint nyan cat onto the screen of the macbook pro.
05:12	Raynes	It's all you really need to see there anyways.
05:13	ddima	well, sorry for killing the cozy emotional moments, please proceed ;)
05:16	TEttinger	hell yes
05:16	TEttinger	,(let [data (mapv vec (into-array [(float-array [23.32 42.23]) (float-array [1.3 2.4])])) sz (count data) arr (make-array Float/TYPE sz (count (nth data 0)))] (doseq [a (range sz)] (aset arr a (float-array (nth data a)))) (mapv vec arr))
05:16	clojurebot	[[23.32 42.23] [1.3 2.4]]
05:16	drorbemet	Hi, I am about to put a batch insert for neo4j REST API together. I have to deal with milions of unique nodes.
05:16	drorbemet	Does any body of you know what the current usage of neocons for batch insertions into neo4j is? The functionality of neocons overlaps with the cypher query language for neo4j.
05:16	TEttinger	where's bitemyapp when you need him
05:17	TEttinger	wait no, I think he uses datomic
05:17	TEttinger	hm
05:18	drorbemet	Do I have to let neocons just send cypher strings? Or are there some efficient functions left in neocons to perform batch insertions over REST?
05:19	drorbemet	here are the pages I am currently looking at ...
05:19	drorbemet	http://clojureneo4j.info/articles/populating.html
05:19	drorbemet	http://docs.neo4j.org/refcard/2.0/
05:19	ddellacosta	is there a way to COPY with clojure.java.jdbc?
05:19	ddellacosta	er, without being super user that is
05:19	ddima	dotemacs: there are batch functions
05:19	drorbemet	It's a mix of old and new ways to do the same operations ...
05:21	dsrx	letting neocons handle cypher strings is how we ended up with prism :(
05:21	ddima	dotemacs: I think I used nodes/create-batch (couple hundred k)
05:21	sm0ke	does lein has docs on what different inbuild profiles are for ? :base :system :user :provided :dev
05:21	dotemacs	ddima: sorry ?
05:22	ddima	sry, drorbemet
05:22	dotemacs	ah, ok :)
05:24	drorbemet	dsrx: so, that means I have to put together cypher strings in clojure in order to perform an efficient batch insert?
05:25	dsrx	it was a bad political joke about the nsa, sorry
05:27	drorbemet	dsrx: ah ... I think I got you :-)
05:27	drorbemet	but anyway I will have to find an answer soon
05:28	abaranosky	What do you all think of this article?: http://programming-puzzler.blogspot.com/2013/12/frustrations-with-namespaces-in-clojure.html
05:29	ddima	drorbemet: http://reference.clojureneo4j.info/clojurewerkz.neocons.rest.nodes.html -> create-batch
05:29	abaranosky	I work on very large projects at work, and don't feel any of the pain he is mentioning in the article, so I'm very interested in hearing other peoples' experiences regarding namespaces
05:30	ddima	abaranosky: where would that magical place with large clj projects at work we? ;)
05:30	ddima	be
05:30	abaranosky	ddima: Staples Innovation Lab (formerly Runa)
05:31	abaranosky	we're in San Mateo, CA
05:32	ddima	cool. not gonna move from berlin to the us atm though ;)
05:32	drorbemet	ddima: thanks, yes I will have to check that out, I will have to combine it with unique constaints and lables though
05:33	abaranosky	ddima: I know of at least one Clojure shop in Germany
05:33	Cr8	abaranosky: I only use it for small things (I'm the only person at work I've convinced.)
05:33	Cr8	but
05:33	TEttinger	ok, so the method to produce 2d arrays, works. but there's one more hurdle relating to I believe macros
05:33	TEttinger	(defmethod print-dup (Class/forName "[[F") [a out] (.write ^java.io.FileWriter out (str "#=" `(let [dat ~(mapv vec a) arr (make-array Float/TYPE (count dat) (count (nth dat 0)))] (doseq [a2 (range (count dat))] (aset arr a2 (float-array (nth dat a2)))) arr))))
05:33	TEttinger	this gives an error about let needing a vector for its binding
05:33	Cr8	while I run into a few of these things, I tend to prefer the state of my project after applying the "workaround"
05:34	Cr8	e.g. avoid the circular namespace problem by having namespaces be small and single purpose
05:34	Cr8	which they tend not to be when I start, but I get forced to make them so
05:34	drorbemet	abaranosky: which is it?
05:35	ddima	abaranosky: tell us, if thats not a trade secret :)
05:35	abaranosky	I forget the name of the place :\|
05:35	abaranosky	let me see....
05:35	Cr8	and it actually comes in handy when I get the occasional patch by folks who don't cloj' and they don't have to read/understand as much
05:36	ddima	Cr8: I managed to convince 3 people without trying to convince by a) showing how much nicer storm topologies are in the clojure dsl b) having a couple of small/understandable export/import tools from hbase, to neo4j etc.pp. and suddenly people started messing with that code
05:36	Cr8	ddima: I've got our support team wanting to learn it ;)
05:36	ddima	though, I don't think one necessarily has to convince anybody to do anything
05:36	TEttinger	awesome guys
05:37	abaranosky	Cr8: I agree the "workaround" for no cicular dependencies means you end up with a better system design
05:38	TEttinger	so does anyone know why that code that I pasted would have something other than the shown vector for the binding?
05:38	TEttinger	something about ` , which I don't know much about?
05:45	Cr8	TEttinger: works here..
05:46	TEttinger	only on decoding does it fail, Cr8
05:46	TEttinger	sorry should have said this is supposed to yield something that you can read-string
05:46	Raynes	abaranosky: Do you live in the bay area?
05:47	Cr8	AH
05:47	Cr8	I see what you're doing
05:47	Cr8	TEttinger: so, ` will qualify any symbols inside the quoted form
05:48	TEttinger	so should I quote dat in some way?
05:48	Cr8	you probably want a gensym'y thing. Put a # after any names that are local to the `
05:48	Cr8	,`(let [dat# foo] (do dat#))
05:48	clojurebot	(clojure.core/let [dat__25__auto__ sandbox/foo] (do dat__25__auto__))
05:48	TEttinger	uh ok, will do...
05:48	Cr8	TEttinger: dat, arr, any names that are local to your generated code
05:49	TEttinger	and when I refer to them?
05:49	Cr8	a2 I think as well
05:49	TEttinger	do I have the # in there too?
05:49	Cr8	TEttinger: in any place you use them
05:49	Cr8	yeah, you see above that I used dat# twice, and it got the same generated symbol in both places
05:50	Cr8	,`(let [dat# foo other# bar] [other# dat#]))
05:50	clojurebot	(clojure.core/let [dat__50__auto__ sandbox/foo other__51__auto__ sandbox/bar] [other__51__auto__ dat__50__auto__])
05:50	abaranosky	Raynes: yeah, I live 30 minutes south of San francisco
05:50	Raynes	abaranosky: It's 2:48AM.
05:50	Cr8	where a different name gets a different generated symbol (but again, reusing that name gets the same one, at least inside the same `)
05:50	abaranosky	vacation :)
05:51	Raynes	Only reason I'm awake is cuz insomnia.
05:51	TEttinger	hm, didn't help, Cr8
05:51	TEttinger	IllegalArgumentException dat__243__auto__ requires a vector for its binding in dk.spritecore: clojure.core/let (core.clj:4043)
05:51	abaranosky	I regularly stay up this late. For better or worse
05:52	abaranosky	... I think I like the quiet
05:52	TEttinger	abaranosky, same here
05:54	TEttinger	that' using the messy
05:54	TEttinger	(defmethod print-dup (Class/forName "[[F") [a out] (.write ^java.io.FileWriter out (str "#=" `(let [dat# ~(mapv vec a) arr# (make-array Float/TYPE (count dat#) (count (nth dat# 0)))] (doseq [a2# (range (count dat#))] (aset arr# a2# (float-array (nth dat# a2#)))) arr#))))
05:57	Cr8	well this is weird
05:57	Cr8	if I just paste the output into the REPL it evals alright
05:57	Cr8	ah
05:58	Cr8	but not with the #= in front of it
06:01	TEttinger	,((fn [a out] (.write ^java.io.FileWriter out (str "#=" `(let [dat# ~(mapv vec a) arr# (make-array Float/TYPE (count dat#) (count (nth dat# 0)))] (doseq [a2# (range (count dat#))] (aset arr# a2# (float-array (nth dat# a2#)))) arr#)))) (make-array Float/TYPE 2 2))
06:01	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: sandbox/eval28/fn--29>
06:01	TEttinger	,((fn [a out] (.write out (str "#=" `(let [dat# ~(mapv vec a) arr# (make-array Float/TYPE (count dat#) (count (nth dat# 0)))] (doseq [a2# (range (count dat#))] (aset arr# a2# (float-array (nth dat# a2#)))) arr#)))) (make-array Float/TYPE 2 2) out)
06:01	clojurebot	#=(clojure.core/let [dat__54__auto__ [[0.0 0.0] [0.0 0.0]] arr__55__auto__ (clojure.core/make-array java.lang.Float/TYPE (clojure.core/count dat__54__auto__) (clojure.core/count (clojure.core/nth dat__54__auto__ 0)))] (clojure.core/doseq [a2__56__auto__ (clojure.core/range (clojure.core/count dat__54__auto__))] (clojure.core/aset arr__55__auto__ a2__56__auto__ (clojure.core/float-array (clojure.co...
06:02	TEttinger	agh
06:02	Cr8	okay
06:02	Cr8	I have no idea why it works
06:02	Cr8	but wrapping it with an eval works
06:02	Cr8	https://www.refheap.com/22231
06:02	TEttinger	yeah, it's supposed to be read-string'ed
06:02	TEttinger	but I didn't guess eval would be needed
06:03	Cr8	I am not really sure why it is
06:03	Cr8	,(read-string "#=(let [a 1] a)")
06:03	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EvalReader not allowed when read-eval is false.>
06:03	Cr8	oh right
06:03	TEttinger	#= is supposed to read and eval
06:03	Cr8	anyway that doesn't work
06:04	hyPiRion	,(binding [read-eval true] (+ 1 2))
06:04	clojurebot	3
06:04	Cr8	ah
06:04	Cr8	,(binding [read-eval true] (read-string "#=(let [a 1] a)"))
06:04	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core/let>
06:04	Cr8	,(binding [read-eval true] (read-string "#=(eval (let [a 1] a))"))
06:04	clojurebot	1
06:04	TEttinger	,(binding [read-eval true] (read-string "#=(let [x 1] x)"))
06:04	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core/let>
06:05	TEttinger	whaaaaat
06:05	Cr8	Ah
06:05	hyPiRion	yesh, #= is not some arbitrarily function call guys
06:05	Cr8	AH
06:05	Cr8	#= doesn't do macroexpansion, for some reason
06:05	TEttinger	but I have it doing that in other calls
06:06	TEttinger	I think...
06:06	TEttinger	(defmethod print-dup (Class/forName "[C") [a out] (.write ^java.io.FileWriter out (str "#=" `(char-array ~(vec a))))) ;; this works , I think
06:06	Cr8	,(binding [read-eval true] (read-string "#=(inc 1)"))
06:06	clojurebot	2
06:06	Cr8	,(binding [read-eval true] (read-string "#=(-> 1 inc)"))
06:06	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core/->>
06:06	Cr8	no worky, -> macro doesn't expand
06:07	Cr8	or.. only expands once
06:07	TEttinger	ahhhh
06:07	Cr8	it looks like it expanded once
06:07	Cr8	wacky
06:07	TEttinger	so either i write it without macros, or use eval
06:07	Cr8	,(binding [read-eval true] (read-string "#=(eval (-> 1 inc))"))
06:07	clojurebot	2
06:07	Cr8	works though
06:08	hyPiRion	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/LispReader.java#L1019 <- the actual source
06:10	Cr8	okay
06:11	TEttinger	Cr8, with eval it does work
06:11	Cr8	so if the thing after #= is a list, and the first element is a symbol, that corresponds to a var that can be resolved in the current NS, it will use that var as a Fn
06:11	Cr8	on the rest of the read-stuff
06:11	Cr8	it's not actually an eval
06:11	TEttinger	ok
06:12	Cr8	#=(eval stuff) is what you want if you want to be able to write arbitrary clojure
06:12	Cr8	#=(foo ...) won't do you what you expect if foo is not a fn and if ... contains any macros that you expect to expand
06:52	ddima	"The core problem is that Lisp makes programmers selfish. Giving programmers so much flexibility is inviting the alienation of other programmers; Lispers think: how can I express this problem best, for me?" (http://chrisdone.com/posts/emacs-users-are-like-igor) - here we go ;)
06:56	bitemyapp	ddima: sounds about right.
06:59	ddima	I'd say attitude comes before the language and remains after that as well - sure, personally everybody does whatever he pleases, but is that really true for well-adjusted non-egomaniac lisp-developers in a team?
07:01	ior3k	not if you do code reviews
07:01	bitemyapp	ddima: simply not using macros goes a long way.
07:01	bitemyapp	if you're doing FP correctly, that'll happen anyway.
07:01	ddima	ior3k: or feel like your decisions depend upon/affect others ;)
07:01	ior3k	ddima: yes, but even if you don't, there's no way selfish code will pass a code review
07:02	ior3k	saying this by experience
07:02	ior3k	from*
07:02	ddima	because ignorance/constant (bad) reinvention of stuff and ignorance towards understandability is also very prevalent with your average 9-5 java dev ;)
07:03	ddima	I'm just still wondering about the constant "bashing" on the lispers mindset. I have not been using lisp since the 70s or anything, but isn't that a constant theme: lispers are egomaniacs, dont like sharing, bash on others ;)
07:03	bitemyapp	it's always fun watching people in OOP langs trying to leverage inversion of control.
07:03	ddima	and so far with the clojure community this has not been the case at all
07:03	bitemyapp	That sort of thing is insanely painful if you're not using a nice FP lang.
07:04	Cr8	ddima: yeah, it's just kind of a conversation stopper
07:05	bitemyapp	ddima: hum. the propaganda against lispers is true WRT to Common Lispers
07:05	ddima	the only reason I could imagine for this being "true" to some extent is if you'd assume that lisp has mainly been used in academic circles in the past decades - most are just not really interested in coding itself
07:05	bitemyapp	they're arrogant !@#$s and look down on anything that isn't actually Common Lisp.
07:05	bitemyapp	ddima: Clojurians are a bit more social and cooperative, culturally. Flatter, more idiomatic code styles too.
07:06	ddima	but it's the same way with python/java/c code from some academics
07:06	ddima	hm
07:06	bitemyapp	seriously, try talking to somebody like lispm on HN. CLers are fucking insufferable.
07:06	Cr8	there's more of a pragmatic/practical use focus
07:06	ddima	but in a good way, without sliding towards ruby-community "awesomeness" ;)
07:06	ddima	<duq>
07:07	ddima	bitemyapp: why do you think that is?
07:07	bitemyapp	Clojure's community is nice. It's a good balance of FABULOUSSSSS, practicality, and interestingness.
07:08	bitemyapp	ddima: I'm an ex-CLer. We were so much better than everybody else for so long that it went to our heads and stayed that way even after it stopped being the case.
07:08	ddima	oh, ok :D
07:08	bitemyapp	you can do a lot better than CL these days, they just haven't figured it out yet.
07:08	ddima	but they are so much better per definition!
07:09	Cr8	I wrote a bit of CL but I could feel myself becoming antisocial ;P
07:09	ddima	goes straight into your head
07:10	ddima	bitemyapp: I like how for most a default way to start out a java project is to depend on as many spring components as you can get your hands on ;)
07:10	bitemyapp	Cr8: CL lends itself to desert island programming where you build some weird alternate universe out of macros.
07:10	ior3k	ddima: I am a full time ruby programmer (would love to move to clojure full time). I can attest there's too much "awesomeness" in the ruby community
07:10	bitemyapp	ior3k: too much pop culture and drama, not enough coding.
07:10	bitemyapp	tenderlove is subsidizing like 20% of the practical work that happens in that community.
07:10	ior3k	"drama" is the keyword there
07:11	ddima	ior3k: didn't really mean it negatively, have been doing ruby (sometimes even with rails) for a couple of years, but couldnt really bond with all that awesomeness
07:11	bitemyapp	well the pop culture bit matters too. too many people trying to be "involved" that aren't contributing anything.
07:11	ddima	ior3k: generally not finding too many things "oh so awesome" ;)
07:11	ior3k	ddima, bitemyapp: agreed
07:12	ddima	in the end the lack of "serious" libraries like numpy/ntlk etc made me move to python for the greatest part, which i like
07:12	Cr8	I managed to wield Common Lisp as if it were PHP ;)
07:12	Cr8	that is, mostly with mudballs of mutable state
07:12	ddima	well, then me not writing macros until the pain really becomes bad, seems to be a good approach
07:13	Cr8	and the only reason anything worked is that i destroyed the world all the time
07:13	ior3k	with ruby it feels as if people are still extolling the qualities of horse carriages while clojure people are building rockets
07:14	ior3k	but I'm not trying to become a smug clojurian
07:14	ddima	nice try ;)
07:14	ior3k	it just feels like a totally different league
07:14	ior3k	heh, sorry
07:14	ior3k	I wonder what the right attitude is, though
07:15	ddima	just do your thing and dont compare, I'd assume
07:15	ddima	I mean, they are probably muuuch better at css and stuff!!11 ;)
07:15	Cr8	I'd say that the different langs and their communites value different things
07:15	Cr8	or have different sensibilities
07:17	ior3k	maybe... I remember what attracted me to ruby at the time was how much better it felt to use ruby over java. But what attracts me to clojure is how it makes much easier for me to build software that works (and that's from very limited experience)
07:18	ddima	thanks to hickey a lot of stuff seems to be much more thoughtful and motivates to think more in contrast to just spit out code the way one has done 100s of times, especially since many things can be written quickly WHEN a solution is found - that's what it feels like to me. combined with an unspoken love for sucklessness ;)
07:18	ddima	(not only to him, but I guess his talks helped when bootstrapping the community)
07:19	ior3k	definitely, I think the focus on simplicity is a very important part of the clojure community
07:19	ddima	thought that's nothing you couldn't pursue in java for example, it's just culture i guess
07:20	Cr8	well there's something to be said for having sharp tools that are fun to work with
07:22	ddima	I was amazed at how quickly and enthusiatically a collegue at ex-work picked up clojure and pimped a tool I wrote without ever having done lisp before and it didn't even look to bad - so I don't buy the elitism/nobody gets it argument anymore
07:22	ddima	that was also the reason why I wanted to learn a lisp for the last 10 years but never came far, just a mindset thing
07:23	ddima	which was entirely my fault ofc
07:23	ddima	so thanks, dear clojure community, for such a nice tool :)
07:24	ddima	have to go and paint some walls with physical tools now ;)
08:05	fizruk	hello! can I somehow use map as format parameters? e.g. (format "%(name)s %(surname)s" {:name "John" :surname "Doe"}) ?
08:06	mdrogalis	fizruk: Not that I'm aware of, but that's pretty neat.
08:08	justin_smith	that's not far from what a moustache based template engine does
08:09	fizruk	yeah I think template engine suits better for my purposes
08:11	fizruk	nonetheless in python they have something like "%(name)s %(surname)" % {"name": "John", "surname": "Doe"}
08:12	fizruk	I think it would be cool to have a similar thing in clojure
08:12	mdrogalis	Yaawn, work the day after a holiday. D:
08:12	fizruk	(sometimes you don't want a template engine)
08:19	atomphil	can you not just use String.format?
08:27	fizruk	atomphil: I can't use argument names in format string that way, only argument indexes
08:27	atomphil	ah I see
08:35	hcumberdale	Hi there :)
08:36	hcumberdale	Getting this strange error after updating to ring 1.2.1: assoc-conj does not exist
08:37	hcumberdale	Tried to include [ring/ring-codec "1.0.0"] but it does not seem to be helpful :(
08:40	mdrogalis	hcumberdale: Sounds like conflicting versions of the same JAR on your classpath.
08:40	mdrogalis	lein deps :tree might reveal some trouble.
08:40	hcumberdale	thx mdrogalis, i'll see
08:41	justin_smith	fizruk: a slightly ugly version of what you are asking for https://www.refheap.com/22233
08:41	justin_smith	it works
08:41	fizruk	justin_smith: :)
08:42	justin_smith	oops, the escaping is off
08:42	hcumberdale	lein clean was the solution :) thx mdrogalis deps :tree displayed the issue
08:44	mdrogalis	hcumberdale: Awesome. :)
08:46	justin_smith	fizruk: I just fixed the paste, escaping now works https://www.refheap.com/22233
08:48	fizruk	justin_smith: thanks!
08:48	justin_smith	any suggestions of making the above cleaner / more readable welcome
08:49	justin_smith	I like how searchihg for : in the string creates smileys wearing jaunty hats
08:58	Guest85538	is it possible to create a macro that returns a java static function call. I have a lot of java static calls like this (Javaclass/method x y z). I would like rename the method in a clojure way but i dont want a performance penality by wrapping each static method in a clojure one. Can I do this with a macro? Like (my-method x y z) => (Javaclass/myMethod x y z)
08:59	justin_smith	well, I don't know where it would get JavaClass from in your example
08:59	justin_smith	but otherwise, yeah
09:06	Guest85538	I am tring to make a wrapper for lwjgl. It is full of static java calls with each method residing in tis own class(GL11...GL30,...).So I would like to have one clojure file(lwjgl wrapper) with all the Java impports, and inside a bunch of macros that all they do is translate (my-method x y z) to (Javaclass/myMethod x y z) so I would not have to keep track of all th eclasses. So whenever I would
09:06	Guest85538	like to use lwjgl I would just have to (:use lwjg-wrapper) instead of having to import all java classes. Or Would I still have to import Java classes where I would use this macros, cuz this macros would just translate, and once a method is translated it would still require a java class?
09:07	justin_smith	no, if the class is found in the file where the macro is defined that works
09:08	justin_smith	so you would have a macro that expanded (foo ...) to (GL11/foo ...) and another that expands (foo ...) to (GL30/foo ...) etc.
09:08	justin_smith	that seems doable
09:09	gfredericks	Guest85538: it works because the macro file ensures the classes have been loaded, and then in the expansion the class names are fully qualified
09:09	gfredericks	,`Long
09:09	clojurebot	java.lang.Long
09:09	Guest85538	nice, can you give me an example how to create such a macro. Like (defmacro gl-gen-buffer [] GL15/glGenBuffers) something like this
09:09	gfredericks	Guest85538: (defmacro gl-gen-buffer [& args] `(GL15/glGenBuffers ~@args))
09:10	gfredericks	you can use some specific arity if you know it, which you probably do
09:10	Guest85538	nice thanks, I will try it out
09:15	Guest85538	works like a charm, thanks again
09:20	gfredericks	~macros
09:20	clojurebot	Barking spiders!
09:23	justin_smith	Guest85538: another note is if you are concerned enough about overhead to prefer a macro over function here,, the version that specifies the arguments individually will churn a bit less garbage than the ~@args version
09:24	justin_smith	also you can use hinting if there are multiple versions of a static method differentiated by input type
09:25	justin_smith	(reflection to pick a method is more expensive than function dereference is by far)
09:30	mdrogalis	Barking spiders lolol
09:30	gfredericks	justin_smith: I don't think a variadic macro implies reflection
09:31	justin_smith	no, a variadic macro implies creating and then throwing away a seqeuence
09:31	justin_smith	I was pointing out two separate concerns
09:34	mdrogalis	Does it imply barking spiders?
09:34	justin_smith	we could blame the dog instead
09:38	gfredericks	justin_smith: that's at compile-time though
09:38	justin_smith	true
09:40	justin_smith	... barely resisting the opportunity to snark about clojure load time clearly not being an issue
09:40	justin_smith	point taken though, not a big deal
09:47	benedikt	what is the state of clojure on android? last time i tried there was a servere lack of documentation and a lot of library "fungus"
09:52	ToxicFrog	Under what circumstances will "lein run" re-use some older compiled version rather than using the source as it exists?
09:53	justin_smith	ToxicFrog: with some lein versions I have found the need to lein clean to avoid bugs
09:57	justin_smith	I don't really have a full formal description of the problem, but I know "when in doubt, lein clean" seemed to take care of it
10:04	ToxicFrog	justin_smith: that sorted it, thanks.
10:05	ToxicFrog	Now I just need to get error messages out of saturnine that aren't complete garbage
10:06	justin_smith	Good luck with that. Gigo is a bitch.
10:07	ToxicFrog	Gigo?
10:07	justin_smith	garbage in garbage out
10:08	justin_smith	the dominant philosophy of error handling in the clojure world
10:08	ToxicFrog	Yeah :/
10:08	justin_smith	"if the input is meaningless, the output can be meaningless"
10:10	ToxicFrog	Makes it hard for me to recommend it.
10:11	justin_smith	I wish windmove and org mode didn't clash :(
10:12	justin_smith	ToxicFrog: I gave up trying to talk anyone into a lisp ages ago
10:12	justin_smith	I use it, it works for me. Being an advocate is hard work.
10:13	ToxicFrog	justin_smith: the thing is, clojure is the first lisp I've really enjoyed using and would like to recommend
10:13	ddima	justin_smith: that's also a fundamental principle in natural language processing and statistics ;)
10:14	ToxicFrog	But then I have to hedge it with "just be aware that any sort of syntax or runtime error will result in a terminal full of trash with, if you are lucky, the real error in there somewhere"
10:14	ToxicFrog	Whereas if I recommend, say, Lua, it's a less capable language but the error reporting actually doesn't suck.
10:14	justin_smith	ddima: but this isn't a natural language, we can have heuristics, or strict enough rules to verify the error and report it cleanly
10:15	ToxicFrog	ddima: on the other hand, garbage in to a compiler should at least get it to tell you why it is garbage.
10:15	ddima	justin_smith: true, but still, if you fail to do so... ;)
10:15	ddima	yes, true, true. I just like the saying
10:16	ddima	this is for sure one of the rougher aspects, easpecially with lazy seqs
10:16	ddima	-a
10:16	justin_smith	also, I work with audio, and sometimes garbage in, perfection out is even an option (totally outside the programming world now, I am not advocating for perl)
10:17	justin_smith	ddima: yeah, with lazy seqs tracking down where the actual error is can be maddening
10:19	ddima	justin_smith: last time i had something like this just a simple indicator that it actually was during realization of a lazy seq would have helped. but haven't digged into the code to see if this can be easily done
10:19	ddima	cost me like 2 hours of my life
10:21	ddima	are there attempts at improving this part (havent checked any roadmaps)?
10:29	Guest85538	justin_smith: thanks for the tips about the optimization. Do you know any good resource about various optimization tips for clojure?
10:46	lnostdal	anyone tried running clojure on java 8? how did it work out?
10:47	mdrogalis	lnostdal: I remember Andy tried it a while ago and it worked mostly okay?
10:47	mdrogalis	There's a post on the Clojure-dev mailing list about it.
10:48	mdrogalis	"It failed a few tests involving reflection, which I tracked down to a problem that exists in earlier JDKs, too."
10:48	mdrogalis	"It also had a few more warnings while compiling one Java source file about the use of the identifier _."
10:48	mdrogalis	"With both of those applied, latest Clojure master compiles and passes all tests with no more warnings (1) than when using Oracle JDK7."
10:48	mdrogalis	Should be fine.
10:49	lnostdal	interesting, thank you .. i'm gonna give it a spin :)
10:58	Tekhne	(I'm a newbie to Emacs and Clojure. Trying to learn both.) How can I eval my current Clojure form in my cider REPL? The cider docs kind of assume more Emacs knowledge than I have, so I don't understand.
10:59	technomancy	Tekhne: pick one to learn first
10:59	technomancy	trying to do both is just going to end in sorrow
11:00	Tekhne	technomancy: Oh, nevermind. I think I figured out my problem. I needed to put my point (cursor?) after the last paren of my form.
11:00	Tekhne	technomancy: ...then do the Emacs command.
11:05	mdrogalis	technomancy: Just saw the To the Moon talk.
11:05	mdrogalis	That was incredible.
11:12	technomancy	<3
11:13	technomancy	glad they got that one posted
11:13	mdrogalis	Yeah, me too. It was moving sitting here watching it myself. I can't imagine the energy in that room.
11:14	gfredericks	is this about that video jame?
11:15	mdrogalis	Eh?
11:16	ior3k	Eloquent Ruby... I knew I had heard of Russ Olsen before
11:16	JampoL	.
11:28	KahviIslaamilain	Raynes, are you there?
11:39	shiranaihito	has anyone got experience working with Clojure using Ant (instead of Leiningen/Maven)?
11:40	shiranaihito	has anyone got experience working with Clojure using Ant (instead of Leiningen/Maven)?
11:40	shiranaihito	whoops.. sorry for the double post
11:42	sdegutis	Welp.
11:42	sdegutis	Tried my hand at an IDE and got pretty far before I completely lost all steam.
11:42	shiranaihito	hm? :P
11:42	shiranaihito	you mean instead of Lein? .. or instead of Emacs or something?
11:42	sdegutis	https://github.com/sdegutis/leviathan
11:43	sdegutis	Not instead of anything. Just an IDE.
11:43	gdev	shiranaihito, yes, I wouldn't recommend it...unless you have to for legacy reasons
11:44	sdegutis	Oh, different conversation. Sorry.
11:44	shiranaihito	gdev: well, it's just that i'm annoyed by the "Java-baggage" that Clojure has inherited.. for example, I wanted to play with Datomic, and after adding it as a dependency, Lein started exploding with a complaint about commons-codec.. Apparently, the AWS SDK uses codec 1.3, and other stuff depends on 1.6.. so.. there we go
11:45	shiranaihito	someone suggested setting some kind of "exclusion" to circumvent the problem, but that might.. cause some instability issues with whatever depends on commons-codec, or something.. ? i don't really know
11:46	shiranaihito	they're all probably just using "codec" for Base64 anyway
11:48	shiranaihito	.. so, i'm left wondering if i should try using Ant instead, or .. just give up on Clojure or something? :P yeah, that would probably be too drastic, but still.. all the baggage is really annoying
11:49	shiranaihito	gdev: what kind of problems did you run into with Ant?
11:49	sdegutis	Also, while I'm here, I want to clear something up. The last time I was here, I was upset about a "crazy feminist" as I called her. And I still stand by what I said. But her being crazy has nothing to do with her being a feminist, and says nothing about my views about feminism. She's just a crazy person who also happens to be a feminist. I figured you guys all understood that, but someone PMed me explaining that I should keep my opini
11:49	sdegutis	on on feminism to myself.
11:50	shiranaihito	sdegutis: people are way too touchy about feminism anyway (and a vast array of other stuff too, of course)
11:51	sdegutis	I intentionally try not to talk about that kind of stuff, because there's always someone who will take offense at anything you say.
11:51	sdegutis	I wrote about how I think we should talk about that kind of stuff: http://sdegutis.github.io/2013/11/18/how-professionals-should-do-politics-and-religion/
11:51	shiranaihito	yeah, it's silly, to put it mildly :P
11:53	sdegutis	So anyway, I wrote this IDE. It uses some really fun C tricks, but it uses Cocoa so it's not portable unfortunately.
11:53	lgs32a	Emacs/nrepl question: Can you point me to a way to get a command that puts the current sexp in the nrepl buffer and evals enter
11:53	lgs32a	meaning evals it like I have pressed enter
11:54	gdev	lgs32a, Meta-W, Ctrl-x right , Ctrl-Y
11:54	lgs32a	gdev: lol
11:55	lgs32a	every cognitect person has a specific command for that in their presentations
11:57	lgs32a	you also forgot the C-x C-b, nrepl, M-Shift, M->, (C-y), Return
11:58	gdev	shiranaihito, how is dependency management "java baggage".
12:00	gdev	shiranaihito, using Ant I ran into the same problems you're having
12:00	shiranaihito	gdev: not dep management itself.. an example of the baggage is everyone and their neighbour's dog depending on various commons-whatever -jars, mostly just for the sake of re-use, even though whatever little tidbit they needed could have been implemented with not much difficulty
12:00	rovar_away	shiranaihito: would you rather they roll their own utility library rather than depend on a commons-*?
12:01	shiranaihito	rovar_away: perhaps.. i guess "it depends"
12:02	shiranaihito	i've got a java background myself.. and i remember it was common practice to have a "lib" directory with pretty much everything in it, include everything there in the classpath and just hope things run smoothly
12:02	shiranaihito	.. and that was mostly because everything depended on so many of the same libraries, etc
12:02	rovar_away	lein does help mitigate that
12:03	rovar_away	because it does make it easy to pull down new libs in an ad-hoc manner, so you don't need to start out depending on everything
12:03	shiranaihito	for example, i'd have loved to have only a hibernate.jar .. but nope, it depends on commons-whatever and commons-even-more-stuff, and so on
12:04	gdev	shiranaihito, oh okay, but what you were originally trying to do was play with Datomic. How did it all go so wrong?
12:04	shiranaihito	rovar: yeah, that's nice and all.. but maven and the like are mostly just a "band-aid" over this problem
12:05	shiranaihito	http://pastebin.com/KVsdczNx - this kind of thing
12:06	nDuff	shiranaihito: would you mind using a pastebin without ads? refheap.com is a good choince (being written by one of our own); likewise, gist.github.com.
12:06	shiranaihito	nDuff: sure, refheap is fine with me.. i just didn't remember it now
12:07	gdev	yeah, refheap doesn't get websensed to death
12:07	kzar	Regretfully not been looking at Clojure for a while but was having a look at this example in the hope to get back into it again. Confused by the recursion in it though, could anyone explain? (def fib-seq (lazy-cat [0 1] (map + (rest fib-seq) fib-seq)))
12:07	shiranaihito	i kind of feel like this baggage is a serious problem for Clojure too.. but i really want to use Clojure for everything i do these days, so i'm kind of torn
12:08	kzar	(I mean I get the general idea, I guess but...)
12:09	nDuff	kzar: could you be a little more specific about what part needs explaining?
12:09	shiranaihito	https://www.refheap.com/22234 <-- here's the same thing again, in case someone wanted it
12:09	kzar	nDuff: Well I understand the idea of adding the last two items of the list to create the new one
12:09	rovar	shiranaihito: almost all of that is clojure libs, it's not java's fault. Normally I'm happy to blame java developers for everything.
12:10	rovar	seems like its a pace-of-iteration thing
12:10	rovar	ring is a small and young project.. datomic, relatively less so..
12:10	kzar	nDuff: I've not seen / used lazy-cat before but I roughly understand the idea of concatinating two sequences together and returning a lazy one
12:11	kzar	nDuff: I guess I just don't understand how the new item is appended on to the sequence each time
12:11	shiranaihito	rovar: well, i'm not blaming either _language_.. just expressing my discontent with java's "culture of overzealous re-use" and the neglectfulness that's resulted from it
12:11	kzar	nDuff: as (rest fib-seq) must be returning different things, how is the definition of fib-seq changing?
12:12	rovar	shiranaihito: IMO the real problem here is that datomic is not open source. If it were, I'd just say pull down the repo, flip the dependency to 1.6 and then lein install.
12:12	kzar	(What I don't understand is fuzzy, I just know that I don't fully understand it)
12:12	nDuff	kzar: there's only one rest sequence. Map moves over it.
12:12	rovar	shiranaihito: it might be worth putting that question to the mailing list to see about proper solutions for reconciling the conflict.
12:12	kzar	nDuff: oh I see
12:13	rovar	kzar: it's also interesting to note that it is an infinite sequence, it will recurse forever
12:14	shiranaihito	rovar: yeah that might help too, but it seems it's AWS that depends on 1.3 .. i guess i'd have to modify that too? -actually i saw someone had opened an "issue" in the aws project, asking about updating commons-codec to 1.6, but it's 2 months old and didn't seem to get any attention.. i've never actually contributed to an open source project myself (yeah, i know.. a sad excuse of a programmer :p), so i don't
12:14	shiranaihito	know that i could just go ahead and "contribute" the change either, etc..
12:14	kzar	rovar: Yea I understand that
12:14	rovar	most of amazon's stuff is open source..
12:14	rovar	maybe you could just mod it locally.
12:14	sdegutis	What's a good cross platform C GUI API, for writing a Clojure IDE in?
12:15	rovar	what's annoying is that datomic might not even actually need the aws stuff if you're not using it.
12:15	rovar	sdegutis: does it have to be written in C?
12:15	rovar	sdegutis: I guess the core of emacs is in c and its cross platform. I'd recommend that.
12:15	rovar	if not that, then vim
12:15	sdegutis	rovar: hmm I see.
12:16	rovar	emacs has a long, steep learning curve, but at the top of that curve you will achieve enlightenment
12:18	shiranaihito	rovar: yeah.. i don't know.. then i guess i'd have to re-apply the "local patch" whenever aws gets updated etc, it's all very silly.. and i'm not sure it even really makes sense for me to complain.. i just feel like things are somewhat horribly wrong in this regard
12:18	sdegutis	nDuff: that's one of the main reasons I don't use Light Table actually.
12:18	sdegutis	rovar: I'm not looking for an IDE, I'm already writing one.
12:18	lgs32a	gdev: I have now implemented it myself in elisp: https://www.refheap.com/22235
12:19	sdegutis	I'm just looking for a way to run it on other OSes, not just OS X.
12:19	sdegutis	Right now it uses Cocoa for GUI.
12:20	sdegutis	nDuff: It may be my OCD, but I really don't like using things that I know are overly complicated. That's one reason I hate browsing the web. (There's no browser that I know of where I can browse the web on my laptop and not hear my fan spin up to full speed.)
12:20	sdegutis	So using an HTML layout engine to render text is just overkill to my OCD-riddled brain.
12:20	gdev	lgs32a, is this for live coding and presentation purposes? whats wrong with C-x C-e ?
12:20	rovar	sdegutis: have you looked at wxWidgets?
12:20	nDuff	sdegutis: ...eh. You're on top of a huge, complex stack no matter what.
12:21	nDuff	sdegutis: ...using Emacs certainly doesn't get you away from that.
12:21	sdegutis	nDuff: I'm not opposed to complexity, just unnecessary or unrelated complexity.
12:22	lgs32a	gdev: for most people i guess. But I am kind of tired of editing large forms in the nrepl buffer after i pulled them out of the history. I want to edit them in a seperate buffer so that I can save them into a file and e.g. later create tests from them.
12:22	rovar	I think wxWidgets is one of the only libs that has native finish implementations on all platforms.
12:22	Guest85538	is there a way to compare tow keywords by their characters, like this (let
12:22	Guest85538	[b :test] (if (= (:test b)) (println "equal")) (if (= (:test1 b)) (println "notequal")))
12:22	scottj	sdegutis: when you use light table does your fan spin up?
12:23	sdegutis	scottj: honestly I haven't tried it for that long.
12:23	sdegutis	scottj: it's not the only reason I don't prefer LT.
12:23	gdev	lgs32a, ah okay, that's an interesting work flow
12:26	sdegutis	rovar: hmm I haven't, but I will now.
12:26	sdegutis	Hmm, it requires C++
12:26	sdegutis	Guess it's not much different than ObjC in terms of ugly dependencies.
12:28	gfredericks	Guest85538: does (= :test b) not do what you want?
12:28	technomancy	sdegutis: you could contribute to NightCode
12:28	technomancy	somewhat less likely to run out of steam if you have other people helping you
12:29	gfredericks	the nightcode website is the first time I've seen the phrase "targeting the command line"
12:29	sdegutis	technomancy: I would but I don't agree with the philosophy of NC.
12:30	technomancy	so I feel like I should start a novelty twitter account that just retweets markov bots that happen to use the word "clojure" in their strings
12:30	technomancy	there are some really good ones
12:30	sdegutis	technomancy: I wanted an IDE that's basically emacs but extremely custom to Clojure and without any emacs baggage and without RMS.
12:30	sdegutis	(And with a more Clojure-like scripting language.)
12:32	kzar	I think next year I'm going to have another push at groking clojure
12:33	kzar	been a bit slack for a while there
12:35	sdegutis	technomancy: Let me very briefly try to explain mine.
12:36	sdegutis	technomancy: Whenever I have to write ObjC, I minimize emacs and use Xcode. (I minimize emacs instead of closing it because Magit is awesome for any project.)
12:37	sdegutis	technomancy: Because Xcode is way more integrated with ObjC than emacs is (at least that I know of). It shows me syntax errors in my code as I'm typing. It loads every framework and library into memory and analyzes their types properly.
12:37	sdegutis	Basically, Xcode knows about ObjC intimately, so it can do way more than a generic text editor can (even with plugins that try to emulate this externally).
12:38	sdegutis	That intimacy is what I want for Clojure.
12:39	technomancy	that might make sense if I knew xcode or objective C
12:40	sdegutis	I think you understand what I mean just by context.
12:40	sdegutis	The same could probably be said with IntelliJ and Java.
12:40	technomancy	never used those either
12:41	sdegutis	:P
12:42	augustl	I tried to explore the elasticsearch Java codebase with the terminal, then emacs, then wanted to burn my house down. Had to open IntelliJ for that. There's just so many _things_ in an OO codebase, hard to navigate.
12:42	augustl	this is rather fuzzy.. But I've never felt that need in a Clojure codebase
12:44	technomancy	is objc really such a terrible ecosystem that it's easier to suffer through xcode than teach a better editor how to understand it?
12:44	technomancy	(from what I hear this is true of Java)
12:45	augustl	technomancy: afaik all the ObjC know-how in Xcode is in llvm
12:46	edw	technomancy: I do ObjC development, and while I balance my checkbook in Emacs, I use Xcode for ObjC.
12:48	technomancy	must pay well
12:48	edw	ObjC development?
12:50	pippo	ciao
12:50	pippo	lista
12:50	technomancy	edw: xcode doesn't sound like something you'd use by choice
12:51	edw	technomancy: I (just) developed an iOS analytics framework for our clients to provide us in-app data. I hear iOS development pays well. Very few people do in-house development because, you know, you actually need to know what you're doing. Seg faults and all. Your typical PHP/Javascript ninja is not cut out for such work.
12:54	arubin	edw: Many apps are built using things like PhoneGap though.
12:54	arubin	Embedding a browser in an app and writing the actual app in HTML/JS is very common.
12:55	scottj	arubin: where many = a very small percentage of apps, right?
12:55	arubin	scottj: No.
12:55	edw	arubin: Yeah, we run into a lot of people who do things like that. Keep the revolver securely locked away in the safe.
12:55	arubin	PhoneGap is very popular.
12:55	sdegutis	technomancy: It's not that it's a terrible ecosystem (although it kind of is), it's that Xcode makes it so much easier and faster to write than other IDEs and editors do.
12:55	edw	scottj: It all depends on the type of app.
12:55	sdegutis	Just being pragmatic.
12:55	arubin	scottj: Even companies like Facebook did such things for quite a while.
12:56	edw	arubin, scottj: Yeah, and LinkedIn finally stopped drinking the app-as-WebKit container Kool-Aid cup.
12:56	technomancy	sdegutis: hm; maybe there's just a low overlap between the kind of people who know enough elisp to make things better and the kind of people who choose a career path with a high level of vendor-lock-in
12:57	sdegutis	technomancy: that could be it too; elisp is extremely painful for many of us
12:57	sdegutis	technomancy: Not just the language but the API.
12:57	sdegutis	(both)
12:57	justin_smith	Guest85538: regarding your earlier question, there is a book, http://www.packtpub.com/clojure-high-performance-programming/book but based on your other questions you may want to get a bit more familiar with clojure basics before you jump into that
13:00	sdegutis	technomancy: I was only trying to explain my angle to you. I wasn't hoping to convince you. I know we won't see eye to eye, since I'm the kind of person who actually likes writing in C and you don't :P
13:00	technomancy	I'm writing C right now
13:00	ddima	heh
13:00	technomancy	well, not liking it though
13:01	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/ergodox-firmware/commits/master
13:05	sdegutis	Fun :)
13:05	sdegutis	To be fair, I really don't like a lot of C.
13:05	kzar	technomancy: Oo is that keyboard any good?
13:06	sdegutis	The primitive control structures and lack of useful built-in types is frustrating.
13:06	sdegutis	That's where Clojure shines.
13:06	sdegutis	But I love the turing-machine aspects of C and how low-level it is. I love allocating memory on the stack and passing it to other functions as a pointer, pretending it's on the heap.
13:07	technomancy	kzar: I haven't used a lot of mechanical keyboards, but it's the best I've tried
13:08	technomancy	kzar: ^ is the tl;dr of http://technomancy.us/172 if you are really curious
13:09	technomancy	for my purposes and condition it's the best, anyway
13:13	technomancy	just ordered some lighter key switches for the modifiers and pinkies
13:13	kzar	arg internet here is dodgy
13:14	kzar	technomancy: curious about that keyboard, is it worth looking into compared to kinesis etc?
13:14	technomancy	kzar: the kinesis advantage costs more and is more bulky, which put me off
13:14	kzar	I used to use it but I sold it a while back
13:14	technomancy	also you don't get to choose your switch type; I like the tactile clicky response vs the low-force, muted brown switches on the Advantage
13:15	technomancy	but the matrix layout (non-staggered) is similar, and I love that now that i've adjusted
13:15	technomancy	plus the thumb clusters
13:15	kzar	is it expensive?
13:15	technomancy	heh... well you have some options
13:16	technomancy	the base price of the kit is US$235 if you include the keycaps
13:16	technomancy	but if you already have some of the parts, the design is all OSS
13:16	rovar	if i needed to write firmware I'd probably start with https://github.com/whitequark/picobit
13:17	rovar	but I don't really mind C so much
13:17	kzar	oh cool
13:17	technomancy	so you can get your case laser-cut into acrylic at a local makerspace or something and scavenge your switches+caps from an existing keyboard
13:18	rovar	one day when I have time, I'll make a proper dvorak keyboard out of that.
13:18	technomancy	in that case it'd just be US$40 for the printed circuit board plus whatever they charge for the acrylic cutting
13:19	technomancy	and $16 for the microcontroller I guess
13:20	maravillas	technomancy: do you have any thoughts on determining what flavor switch one likes best, aside from trial and error?
13:20	technomancy	maravillas: seems like gamers like blacks. for hackers it just depends on your co-workers' tolerance for clickiness =)
13:21	technomancy	I work alone, so I got the noisy blue switches
13:21	technomancy	and some people like the low-force browns, but they feel a bit mushy for me
13:22	technomancy	I just ordered some browns for my pinkies though
13:22	maravillas	do you find there's a tradeoff in noise vs comfort? or are they unrelated?
13:22	scottj	maravillas: you can buy a cheap kit that has one of each switch. or buy and return a couple keyboards. imo just try blue and brown and skip black and red. idk about clear/green.
13:23	scottj	maravillas: blue and brown are roughly equally popular.
13:24	maravillas	comfort/appeal/good-ness
13:24	marcopolo`	technomancy: have you tried the kinesis advantage? what are your thoughts on that vs the ergodox?
13:24	technomancy	maravillas: browns trade silence for (IMO) comfort, but some people like them better
13:25	technomancy	if you don't like the low-force feel of the browns but can't get something loud supposedly the clear switches are somewhere in between
13:25	technomancy	marcopolo`: it's cool, but it's too bulky to bring to coffee shops like I do. also I like the blue switches better, and the ergodox is cheaper and more hackable.
13:26	technomancy	but I haven't spent enough time on the bowl layout to have a qualified opinion on that aspect; the ergodox is totally flat
13:26	technomancy	maravillas: unless you have a lot of fatigue I'd go with either clear or blue, depending on noise tolerance
13:27	technomancy	maravillas: but it'd probably be easier to give the browns a test run since they're in the kinesis advantage
13:27	technomancy	depending on where you live, I guess
13:31	scottj	maravillas: there are also lots of used mechanical keyboards that you can buy used on ebay and resell after a month for no loss other than shipping and ebay fees
13:33	technomancy	building an ergodox from scavenged switches would actually be a lot ofd fun
13:36	technomancy	lots of tedious work, but I find that kind of thing relaxing
13:37	maravillas	i have a ms 4k natural and despise the buttons...it sounds like browns will feel more like that than i'd like
13:38	maravillas	good ideas, thanks guys
13:42	sdegutis	,(->> (range 100) (reverse) (partition 2 1))
13:42	clojurebot	((99 98) (98 97) (97 96) (96 95) (95 94) ...)
13:42	sdegutis	Commence bottles-of-beer song.
13:46	gfredericks	(range 99 -1 -1) for more efficient singing
13:47	rovar	is there an example of serializing functions into maps?
13:48	rovar	I have a need to pickle functions to disk for later evaluation..
13:48	rovar	I was thinking of just mimicking defn with a macro which includes the doc string, params, and makes a symbol of the executable bits..
13:48	rovar	perhaps a string
13:49	rovar	not a symbol of the bits, a quoted list..
13:53	gfredericks	$google serializable-fn
13:53	lazybot	[technomancy/serializable-fn · GitHub] https://github.com/technomancy/serializable-fn
13:53	gfredericks	rovar: ^
13:54	rovar	gfredericks: <3
14:10	jergason	What is the use case for do?
14:10	jergason	Wouldn't things with side effects still work fine if not wrapped in a do?
14:10	gdev	jergason, side effects
14:10	rovar	jergason: do doesn't return a value, so it kind of implies that the action you're performing is for its side effects..
14:10	AimHere	There's also cases where you want to bundle more than one command in a place that only wants one command
14:11	jergason	Germ
14:11	gdev	jergason, do actually does return a value, the last expression in the do block
14:11	jergason	Dang iPhone keyboard. Meant hrrrrm
14:11	AimHere	One case would be (if wibble (do ... lots of things) (do ... other things))
14:11	gdev	,(do (print "oh hai") (+ 1 1))
14:11	clojurebot	oh hai2
14:12	jergason	Ah that one makes sense
14:12	jergason	Ty friends
14:12	gdev	,(do (+ 2 2) (+ 1 1))
14:12	clojurebot	2
14:12	mdrogalis	(if (true? true) (do (thing1) (thing2)))
14:12	AimHere	Useless use of true?!
14:13	rovar	indeed
14:13	AimHere	Also if you're returning nil on falsy values, then use 'when' instead of 'if'
14:13	rovar	in almost all cases true? is useless
14:13	jergason	Okay, it is starting to make sense.
14:13	AimHere	,(map true? [true 3])
14:13	clojurebot	(true false)
14:14	AimHere	There is some sort of use case there somewhere
14:14	gdev	,(true? (is-useless 'true?))
14:14	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: is-useless in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
14:14	mdrogalis	You get the point. ;[
14:15	gfredericks	~true
14:15	clojurebot	Huh?
14:15	gfredericks	~false
14:15	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
14:15	mdrogalis	Barking spiders.
14:15	gfredericks	clojurebot: true is false
14:15	clojurebot	In Ordnung
14:15	edw	AimHere: `when` is most useful to imply that somethin' imperative's going on. If you're doing something that doesn't involve mutation, an explicit nil is the classy thing to do.
14:15	gfredericks	presumably now clojurebot can prove anything
14:16	gfredericks	~false
14:16	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
14:16	gfredericks	clojurebot: that's sexist
14:16	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
14:16	justin_smith	edw: or "and" even, if it is purely functional and value oriented
14:16	justin_smith	,(and true :OK)
14:16	clojurebot	:OK
14:17	edw	justin_smith: I get yelled at by my peeps when I do that.
14:17	justin_smith	weird
14:17	edw	Werd.
14:18	justin_smith	and means "all of these values, or else false - and there are no concerns about side effects here"
14:18	justin_smith	that's what it means to me at least
14:18	justin_smith	well "the last value if all or true"
14:19	edw	justin_smith: These people are not fans of C's ternary operator either.
14:20	gdev	,(and (= 1 2) 3 4)
14:20	clojurebot	false
14:20	gdev	,(and (= 2 2) 3 4)
14:20	clojurebot	4
14:21	justin_smith	gdev: usually more like (and (cond-1 input) cond-2 result)
14:22	gdev	justin_smith, yeah I was just showing how it only cares about the last value when they're all true
14:23	justin_smith	gotcha, right
14:24	gfredericks	(#'and true false)
14:24	gfredericks	,(#'and true false)
14:24	clojurebot	true
14:24	gdev	I've seen people see code like (and (cond-1 input) blah blah result) and think, ah, I know the code block that is the "result" so this should work too (and (cond-1 input) result blah blah)
14:25	gdev	and I've only been teaching Clojure for a few months
14:28	gdev	this is usually because some people are used to putting return statements anywhere in a method to short circuit it
14:29	justin_smith	of course
14:33	gdev	teaching java devs anything other than "yet another java framework" is quite a masochistic task
14:35	rhg135	hello, i have a (probably obvios) qquestion, how do you manage mutable java objects for, say, concurrency?
14:35	justin_smith	rhg135: you can put it in an atom, and wrap the ops in swap! calls
14:36	rhg135	justin_smith, i don't exactly understand, you'd still be mutating the same state
14:36	rhg135	and not all calls are idempotent
14:37	justin_smith	right, but with an atom at least there is some negotiation of access and mutation
14:37	justin_smith	there is also the option of using the (locking ...) call
14:38	justin_smith	(locking some-mutabale-object ...)
14:38	rhg135	ya... I saw that, but didn't understand why it worked
14:38	justin_smith	but it is up to you in that case that all access is wrapped in a locking call
14:38	gfredericks	wait what
14:38	gfredericks	we're talking about a mutable java object
14:38	justin_smith	yes
14:39	gfredericks	using an atom means your update functions are subject to being run multiple times
14:39	justin_smith	oh shit, you are right
14:39	justin_smith	don't mind me
14:39	justin_smith	an atom is exactly the oposite of what you want there
14:39	rhg135	oarticularly sockets and Readers
14:40	gfredericks	so you _could_ use an agent instead; but I think what you want depends on what you're doing
14:40	gfredericks	so yeah if you have an object shared between threads and you want to make sure only one thread is calling methods at a time, you could use locking or an agent
14:40	rhg135	i think bitemyapp chewed me out for using atoms for this once lol
14:41	rhg135	gfredericks, agents does sound right
14:41	gfredericks	atoms work best when used with immutable values
14:41	rhg135	why must mutability be over-complicated
14:41	gfredericks	yeah not only do atoms subject your functions to retries but they also can run on different threads at the same time
14:41	justin_smith	gfredericks: maybe we could upgrade that to "atoms should never be used for mutable things"
14:41	gdev	rhg135, there are a lot of talks that answer this question
14:42	rhg135	i know
14:42	rhg135	and yet ppl still do it :\
14:42	justin_smith	rhg135: at a root level, unless you reject concurrency altogether, mutation is complication
14:42	rhg135	justin_smith, agreed
14:53	gdev	,(clojure-version)
14:53	clojurebot	"1.6.0-master-SNAPSHOT"
14:53	gdev	&(clojure-version)
14:53	lazybot	⇒ "1.4.0"
14:55	gdev	,(interleave)
14:55	clojurebot	()
14:55	gdev	&(interleave)
14:55	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core$interleave
14:57	gfredericks	,(doc interleave)
14:57	clojurebot	"([] [c1] [c1 c2] [c1 c2 & colls]); Returns a lazy seq of the first item in each coll, then the second etc."
14:59	gdev	&(doc interleave)
14:59	lazybot	⇒ "([c1 c2] [c1 c2 & colls]); Returns a lazy seq of the first item in each coll, then the second etc."
15:16	rhg135	if I understand the docs, agents use a thread pool, any way to have it run on one thread?
15:17	justin_smith	rhg135: you could use core.async and have a process reading from a channel
15:18	rhg135	i guess, but i thought 1.5 added this type of thing
15:18	justin_smith	rhg135: why do you need the agent to always be in the same thread - is it not good enough to know it will only be running in one thread at a time?
15:18	lnostdal	hi guys, does cider use the same server component as nrepl.el? ( https://github.com/clojure/tools.nrepl )
15:19	justin_smith	rhg135: an agent will block until the previous task is done
15:19	rhg135	justin_smith, ah perfect
15:20	rhg135	tought asynchronous meant it didn't wait
15:20	rhg135	but ok
15:20	justin_smith	check out the output of (doc agent) in your repl
15:21	justin_smith	wait, never mind
15:21	justin_smith	that is not as comprehensive as I thought it would be
15:22	justin_smith	http://clojure.org/agents rhg135: see the enumerated list on this page
15:23	justin_smith	or more to the point "At any point in time, at most one action for each Agent is being executed."
15:23	rhg135	ah ic
15:26	justin_smith	I think I have some stuff in my code base that could be better represented as agents, now that I consider it actually
15:28	rhg135	is the thread pool set to a reasonable size?
15:29	justin_smith	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11316737/managing-agent-thread-pools-in-clojure
15:29	justin_smith	rhg135: the key thing is to know when to use send versus send-off
15:29	justin_smith	that helps it use the pool intelligently
15:30	rhg135	what is the difference
15:30	justin_smith	you can also, as the so answer mentions, use your own ExecutorService to override the default
15:30	rhg135	the docs are scarce here
15:30	justin_smith	rhg135: same link I posted to clojure.org above explains it
15:31	justin_smith	send for CPU heavy, send-off for IO-bound
15:32	rhg135	ah
15:32	solidus_	does one use agents as threads with message queues?
15:32	rhg135	send uses a bounded pool
15:33	rhg135	send-off doesn't right?
15:39	justin_smith	I think send-off allows sharing of one of the threads
15:39	justin_smith	like a lighter-weight thread
15:39	justin_smith	I could be wrong though
15:39	justin_smith	solidus_: you can - it is like an inverted message queue though, the agent has the value, and you pass it a function that acts on the value
15:40	rhg135	meh
15:40	rhg135	specifics
15:40	justin_smith	solidus_: but I think you can do nice messge-queue like things with that design
15:40	rhg135	i get the main idea
15:40	justin_smith	rhg135: that SO link I posted linked to the actual source
15:40	justin_smith	at this point it would be easier to read that then speculate
15:42	justin_smith	rhg135: based on the source of send / send off you should look at pooledExecuter and soloExeter respectively
15:43	rhg135	justin_smith, "The send-off pool (also used for futures) is a cached thread pool and will grow without bound. This allows an arbitrary number of background tasks to wait for I/O"
15:43	justin_smith	ahh
15:43	justin_smith	makes much more sense than my first guess did, thanks :)
15:43	rhg135	it's from the so answer
15:45	justin_smith	yeah, reading comprehension ftw
16:10	gdev	it's more important than list comprehension
16:12	Guest85538	With macros I am tring to encapsulate all static java calls and all the Java import to a single file, so wherever I need this Java functionality I just have to import this macros. Translating only methods calls works, but when I am tring to add parameters it reuires to import Java classes. Here is a short snippet of he problem http://pastebin.com/Ej2Xw2kD. Any ideas?
16:13	gdev	pastebin gets websensed on my network, can you paste it into refheap.com?
16:14	Guest85538	https://www.refheap.com/e962558e200e1ac2186194754
16:14	Guest85538	here
16:16	justin_smith	Guest85538: could those args be at any position in the argument list, or are they in predefined places?
16:16	Guest85538	predefined
16:17	Guest85538	the args list should retain the order
16:17	justin_smith	in that case you may want to use an explicit arg list instead of & rest args
16:18	Guest85538	are predefined, and some java methods are overloaded so this would solve for all those methods
16:18	Guest85538	but if it is not possible
16:18	Guest85538	i ll try the other way
16:19	justin_smith	(defmacro gl-bind-buffer [buffer-type & args] `(GL15/glBindBuffer ~(get {:gl-element-array-buffer GL15/GL_ELEMENT_ARRAY_BUFFER :gl-array-buffer GL15/GL_ARRAY_BUFFER} ~@args)))
16:19	justin_smith	something like that maybe
16:19	justin_smith	also why are you quoting the GL15 constants? that may be your issue
16:20	Guest85538	otherwise are not htey evaluated?
16:20	justin_smith	they are constants
16:21	justin_smith	if you quote it you get a symbol
16:21	justin_smith	if you don't you get the constant value
16:21	Guest85538	get it
16:21	justin_smith	you want the latter I think
16:21	gdev	Guest85538, are you the one trying to write a Clojure wrapper for JLWGL?
16:21	Guest85538	jes
16:21	gdev	you're awesome
16:21	gdev	good luck with that
16:22	Guest85538	justin_smith is not the result the same if I quote or not
16:23	Guest85538	in once case i get integers else i get GL15/GL_ARRAY_BUFFER which when executed gets the same result
16:24	mandu_	Hi everyone!
16:24	justin_smith	Guest85538: a quoted symbol is just the symbol
16:24	Cr8	you could write out the fully qualified class name
16:25	justin_smith	Guest85538: if you want quoting, do what Cr8 describes
16:25	justin_smith	otherwise just drop the quoting and you will get the right result I think
16:25	justin_smith	the extra level of quoting delays the evaluation until the usage namespace, which is why the symbol is not being resolved properly
16:25	justin_smith	(unless you import in the using namespace, or fully qualify the symbol, of course)
16:26	mandu_	Is there good a way of filtering more than one collection at a time? Like map with multiple collections that will take a function with multiple arguments and return a collection of filtered collections?
16:26	justin_smith	there is hardly ever a reason to quote a constant
16:27	mandu_	currently i'm doing this: http://pastebin.com/GvEs1HgV
16:27	mandu_	but i'm not sure if this is very efficient
16:27	Guest85538	if I drop quotes it works without the need to import. Seems like I do not fully understand how macros work :/
16:28	justin_smith	mandu_: maybe something like (filter (fn [a b c] (and (p1 a) (p2 b ) (p3 c))) (map list s1 s2 s3))
16:28	justin_smith	(filter (fn [[a b c]] (and (p1 a) (p2 b ) (p3 c))) (map list s1 s2 s3)) sorry, this one
16:28	justin_smith	Guest85538: quotes delay evaluation
16:28	mandu_	but then i'd have to unzip the result again right?
16:29	justin_smith	mandu_: depends what you want to do with the result
16:29	mandu_	i need them separately...
16:29	justin_smith	the unzip is easy to write
16:30	mandu_	yeah, just seems inefficient
16:30	justin_smith	(reduce (fn [[a b c] [e f g]] [(conj a e) (conj b f) (conj c g)]) zipped)
16:30	justin_smith	mandu_: that is the point of laziness, there is really just one traversal
16:31	justin_smith	unless it is forced in between, it only looks like you walk it more than once, really the operations are composed
16:31	justin_smith	though there are of course the small lists created / unwrapped again
16:32	mandu_	okay, cool.. thanks
17:09	rhg135	one more question (for now), I don't really see the use case for a channel over a seq.
17:10	rhg135	i mean i do get what they are meant for, but i don't see why you would need them
17:10	justin_smith	rhg135: if somebody gets a value from a channel, it is gone
17:10	justin_smith	seqs are immutible
17:10	justin_smith	so you can have multiple go blocks reading the same channel, only one will read a given value
17:11	rhg135	sounds like it's back to a queue
17:11	justin_smith	a channel is a nice way to use a queue
17:11	justin_smith	exactly
17:11	rhg135	i see
17:12	rhg135	but i still don't see an use case
17:12	justin_smith	the use case is core.async
17:12	justin_smith	core.async is a dsl for calculating things via channels
17:13	rhg135	doesn't j.u.c already have queus
17:13	rhg135	?
17:13	justin_smith	it does
17:13	justin_smith	core.async is a particular abstraction over queues
17:13	justin_smith	similar to futures vs. threads
17:13	rhg135	just a nice wrapper?
17:14	justin_smith	well, a nice wrapper for queues with some threading / concurrency stuff mixed in I guess
17:15	BobSchack	rhg135: core.async also extends queue to clojurescript
17:15	rhg135	BobSchack, so true
17:16	rhg135	i'm kind of out of ideas for making my server behave
17:17	rhg135	i'm so sure it's due to my lack of understanding about java concurrency
17:17	justin_smith	what behavior do you want from it?
17:17	rhg135	normal server behavior
17:18	rhg135	namely listen, aceept, respond in a new thread and close
17:18	rhg135	it goes fine until the respond part
17:18	rhg135	it doesn't at all
17:20	rhg135	but idk it seems i'm only talking to the client on one thread
17:21	justin_smith	have you narrowed down where things break down? not responding could be caused in a bunch of different layers
17:22	rhg135	i've tried too but i seem to get different results
17:22	justin_smith	maybe try stubbing things out at different levels
17:22	justin_smith	so first just reply with the same string to every request - verify you can reply at all...
17:23	justin_smith	then stub out a layer below that, etc.
17:23	rhg135	my most recent attempt has much more seperation in that sense
17:24	rhg135	i'll try that the actual json code is seperate anyway
17:24	rhg135	the socket code is standalone
17:26	rhg135	the code i refer to is https://bitbucket.org/rhg135/jimjure/commits/6e6451e16a57e902ebe0b70fdfec22ad056c807e#chg-src/jimjure/core.clj btw
17:29	justin_smith	rhg135: what in the code you pasted would make the server stay alive long enough to serve a second request?
17:29	justin_smith	it could be I am missing it
17:30	justin_smith	also in jim-server you create a future to start the server, but that returns immediately, and on the next line you close the server
17:30	justin_smith	so it won't even run once
17:30	justin_smith	maybe you intended to deref the future so it would block until it completed?
17:31	rhg135	justin_smith, i think the doseq in json-handler won't finish until the stream ends
17:31	justin_smith	but even so, you would want to change json-server so it looped or something
17:31	rhg135	hmm
17:31	justin_smith	rhg135: the server gets closed as soon as the future is created
17:32	justin_smith	you seem to in general be using futures as if they blocked until completion
17:32	rhg135	so close the socket in the same thread it runs AFTER i'm done
17:32	justin_smith	they do not
17:32	justin_smith	,(future (Thread/sleep 1000000000000) :hello)
17:32	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: no threads please>
17:32	rhg135	justin_smith, but the server is open
17:32	justin_smith	the above will show you waht I mean in a repl
17:32	rhg135	it does accept
17:32	justin_smith	ok
17:32	rhg135	it lets you sen stuff
17:32	rhg135	just no reply
17:32	justin_smith	but you are closing it regardless
17:33	justin_smith	you are closing server on the next line after starting the json-handler
17:33	rhg135	i understand, but it doesn't explain the behavior
17:33	justin_smith	I think it does
17:33	rovar	is there a standard function to take the last n of a sequence?
17:33	justin_smith	it tries to use the socket, socket is closed, so it cannot reply
17:34	rhg135	i thought if you stop a server it closes al lclients connected to it
17:34	justin_smith	rovar: take-last
17:34	rhg135	but i guess not
17:36	rovar	that is close, I'll take it
17:36	rhg135	justin_smith, can you specify the line as I don't see it?
17:37	justin_smith	lines 46+47 run start-server on a socket called "server"
17:37	justin_smith	line 48, which will likely run before the future does, closes "server"
17:37	justin_smith	it is inteterminite, maybe the future gets a chance to initialize first
17:38	justin_smith	but it is very likely to serve a request before that close runs
17:38	rhg135	justin_smith, line 48 is in the future body
17:38	justin_smith	nope
17:38	justin_smith	check your parens
17:38	rhg135	damn
17:38	rhg135	you're right
17:38	justin_smith	my eyes are better than your editor, lol
17:38	justin_smith	sorry, that was uncalled for
17:38	rhg135	i feel so stupid
17:39	rhg135	ofc json-handler isn't called lol
17:39	justin_smith	to be fair, seeing future called by close made me immediately suspicious, given the bug you were complaining about
17:39	rhg135	i wondered why that trace-ns call did nothing
17:39	justin_smith	s/called/followed
17:40	rhg135	i'm going to try that
17:42	mandu_	hey, justin_smith
17:42	justin_smith	yo
17:42	mandu_	i did it your way and then it struck me to do the entire thing in one "reduce"
17:42	justin_smith	cool!
17:42	mandu_	the latter is significantly faster
17:42	rhg135	i should of caught that with the rainbow-parentheses
17:43	justin_smith	rhg135: I catch many of those things by only auto-indenting and not allowing any manual indentation
17:43	rhg135	justin_smith, i was :(
17:44	rhg135	i'm just bad at this
17:44	mandu_	here are the 2 listing in case anyone is interested http://pastebin.com/RTJ8QzSg
17:44	rhg135	mandu_, not lying my mouse batteries died
17:45	justin_smith	mandu_: I don't get why you use apply there
17:46	justin_smith	in any of the places you use it
17:46	mandu_	ah that's just my datastructure
17:46	justin_smith	you know map is varargs right?
17:47	justin_smith	oh, is it because your args to map are all in one sequence?
17:47	mandu_	yeah, my "values" is a vector of vectors
17:47	mandu_	it's basically time series data
17:47	mandu_	dates are the vector with dates
17:47	justin_smith	ahh, got it
17:47	mandu_	values are columns of data corresponding to those dates
17:48	cjfrisz	justin_smith: has map always been varargs in Clojure or am I just confusing it with the fact that reduce isn't?
17:48	justin_smith	the latter
17:48	mandu_	the second method is roughly twice as fast
17:48	mandu_	so i think the first one does transverse twice
17:48	justin_smith	it at least has been varargs for a very long time
17:49	cjfrisz	I guess I just remember being frustrated the one time I wanted vararg reduce and couldn't have it
17:49	cjfrisz	Or rather I just had to be a big boy and do it differently
17:49	justin_smith	mandu_: interesting, I wonder why it would traverse twice.
17:50	justin_smith	because laziness should at least allow it to traverse once
17:50	rhg135	justin_smith, still nope and trace-ns still says nothing
17:51	mandu_	<cjfrisz> clojure is making me extremely lazy and picky
17:53	cjfrisz	mandu_: I write a lot of Scheme, and it's taken lots of effort to un-Scheme-ify my Clojure code
17:53	justin_smith	rhg135: looking closer, jim-server returns a closure that would close the server, but does not invoke it
17:53	cjfrisz	Treating them as different things has made me much happier
17:53	justin_smith	in the original version you shared
17:54	mandu_	what's the main difference so far? pairs vs vectors?
17:54	justin_smith	I would imagine laziness would be the huge one
17:54	Bronsa	cjfrisz: generally when I want to reduce multiple colls i do (reduce (fn [[a b] ..) (map list a b))
17:55	cjfrisz	Bronsa: that's what I ended up doing
17:55	rhg135	justin_smith, thats kind of the point
17:55	mandu_	well i've just started clojure, haven't really "needed" laziness so far
17:55	mandu_	or concurrency
17:55	mandu_	hope to change that soon
17:55	cjfrisz	justin_smith: the laziness has surprisingly never bitten me
17:56	rhg135	not to close it but allow to stop the server
17:56	justin_smith	right, just saying my previous diagnosis was wrong
17:56	rhg135	similar to http-kit
17:56	cjfrisz	mandu_: actually the differences are a little hard to put my finger on right now for some reason
17:56	rhg135	returns a nullary closure
17:57	cjfrisz	Though I do kinda miss pairs
17:57	justin_smith	right. I'll repeat my earlier suggestion: start at the stage that the request first hits your code, write a string to their socket, verify that works
17:57	mandu_	for me the big difference from what little scheme i had is the datastructures and the core library
17:57	justin_smith	then go one step at a time back from the point of request to the rest of the code, mocking up and verifying that layer works
17:58	rhg135	so... ignore input for now and test if it even writes?
17:58	justin_smith	yeah
17:58	justin_smith	then verify at that same level that you get the input
17:58	justin_smith	once both those are verified, go one level deeper in your code (one level further from the code that opens the client request)
17:59	justin_smith	that's how I would do it at least
17:59	rhg135	i don't understand how to test the whole json stream idea
18:00	rhg135	can't get it until the stream closes and then you can't write
18:00	rhg135	well not print it
18:00	justin_smith	well, you break things down into pieces you can verify first, right? or keep rewriting the whole thing blindly hoping you get it right, but the latter sounds much more difficult and more likely to waste your time
18:00	mandu_	okay guys, thanks a lot
18:00	mandu_	off to bed
18:09	justin_smith	rhg135: also, does the :default multimethod def for handle actually work?
18:10	rhg135	justin_smith, idk, but it's not getting called anyway yet
18:10	justin_smith	how do you know? if :action is returning nil, you write nil to the socket and close it
18:11	mandu_	btw, I'm trying to make a time series library for financial analysis and such at https://github.com/xmonkee/clj-time-series
18:12	mandu_	would love any suggestions etc
18:12	justin_smith	rhg135: oh, ok, :default does work, I was not aware that worked
18:15	justin_smith	rhg135: another debugging technique that may help - (def debug (atom [])), then open a repl from inside the server
18:15	rhg135	hmm
18:15	justin_smith	rhg135: then conj data onto it, indicating where the data was found/ what it is, etc.
18:15	justin_smith	then you can investigate it from the repl
18:15	justin_smith	that can be more informative than printlns
18:15	rhg135	justin_smith, seems the let isn't finishing as the handler in server.clj is never run but client does exist
18:16	justin_smith	well a simple println would narrow down where it stalls
18:16	justin_smith	there is the classic (let [_ (println "got this far") ...] ...)
18:17	rhg135	i add a debug call in the let it runs, in the let body before the future, it doesn't
18:17	justin_smith	that's why I am suggesting inside the binding block
18:17	rhg135	yup
18:17	justin_smith	the binding block is evaluated sequentially
18:17	rhg135	but gotta go eat now
18:17	justin_smith	so you start from the top, do a binary search, see where it halted
18:18	rhg135	bbiab
18:22	deadghost	I started programming three years ago
18:23	deadghost	and I still feel like I'm terrible at it
18:23	justin_smith	three years is not long for a skill like programming
18:24	justin_smith	hell I have been at it for nearly two decades and I am still bad at it
18:24	jared314	There was a day, years ago, where I actually felt like I knew what I was doing. That feeling passed quickly.
18:24	bbloom	decade here. yup, pretty bad at it, just like everybody else :-)
18:25	bbloom	in fact, there was a time where every new thing i learned, i felt i knew less
18:25	bbloom	b/c the rate of stuff i was learning was slower than the rate at which i learned of things i had yet to learn
18:25	deadghost	I don't know whether I need to read more code, write more code, read more books, concentrate on one language, learn more languages or what
18:25	deadghost	possibly all of the above
18:25	bbloom	deadghost: the answer is always write more code
18:26	bbloom	deadghost: b/c you'll need to learn more languages, read more libraries & other people's code, and use one language more all at the same time :-)
18:26	bbloom	create goals & then just go accomplish them, or learn something failing to do so
18:27	jared314	and don't forget to pair program with other humans from time to time
18:27	bbloom	shrug that works for some people & not others
18:27	jared314	that's fine
18:27	deadghost	also doesn't help the only people I know who use clojure are in this channel
18:27	hyPiRion	It is not a bad idea to prepare for the journey too. Finding good books is hard, I think
18:28	deadghost	I've been trying to find a home language
18:28	deadghost	since people who focus one down seem to get more done
18:28	bbloom	what is a "home" language?
18:29	deadghost	I guess one language that you primarily use
18:29	deadghost	that are you proficient in
18:29	bbloom	most good coders i know have a few of those
18:30	bbloom	usually it's something like choose one of python/ruby/perl + java/c++/go + clojure/haskell/scala/erlang + sql/css/html/etc
18:30	bbloom	+ javascript
18:30	bbloom	since depresssignly, everybody needs to know js these days
18:32	deadghost	I know one guy that prefers to use js for everything
18:32	deadghost	I still think he's not quite right in the head
18:32	deadghost	but he gets things done with it mostly
18:34	bitemyapp	you can get things done with toothpicks and paste too.
18:34	brainproxy	it's possible to be pretty productive in js, but I think to "big things" done you end up building support for a lot of meta-programming
18:34	bbloom	javascript is proof that our entire industry is not quite right in the head
18:34	justin_smith	I think the thing with js is it is the most universal platform now
18:34	brainproxy	lockerdome.com used to be a mix of tech, but their engineering team moved all the backend code to node.js over time
18:35	deadghost	nodejs is funny
18:35	deadghost	because I either totally don't get it
18:35	brainproxy	but to go "pure js" they invested a huge amount of time into some DSLs and metaprogramming stuff, of their own making
18:35	deadghost	or a huge chunk of programmers are insane
18:36	bbloom	deadghost: in short, it's a brilliant example of "worse is better"
18:36	hcumberdale	:)
18:37	hcumberdale	Someone said once if you review your code years later and you don't think WTF!? you've made no progress :)
18:37	TEttinger	deadghost, why not both?
18:37	deadghost	my first project was a pornhub clone
18:37	deadghost	and I ended up writing and finishing it
18:37	deadghost	without knowing how functions worked
18:37	hcumberdale	awesome :)
18:38	deadghost	in php of course
18:38	deadghost	needless to say I don't want to look at it
18:38	hcumberdale	deadghost: for yourself? or have you been charged
18:38	hcumberdale	http://xkcd.com/844/
18:39	deadghost	personal project
18:39	hcumberdale	I like php. Well done with smarty & templates it is nice.
18:39	deadghost	then I messed around with learn python the hard way and didn't like it
18:39	deadghost	and picked up k&r
18:39	hcumberdale	Such a project as job will be nice. Get money for it and have fun knowing the "business insides" :D
18:40	TEttinger	deadghost, this is pretty mind-blowing http://www.stefankrause.net/wp/?p=144
18:40	hcumberdale	don't like python too. But with extensions you can write native c in it and it gets nice again
18:40	deadghost	I'm fine with python
18:40	deadghost	I just didn't like the book I used
18:40	TEttinger	on some platforms, clojurescript on node.js would outperform clojure on the jvm, it seems.
18:41	TEttinger	(because dalvik is not so great)
18:41	aka	I think python is great but the hoops you have to jump through when using it to server http requests is annoying
18:41	aka	compared to php
18:42	aka	that being said I prefer python over php and just deal with the extra work
18:43	hcumberdale	I really like php when it's done right. Most people just mixed the whole markup with the code. That's causing the bad memories
18:43	hcumberdale	and array_a array_assoc, ...
18:43	ddima	aka: ever tried flask?
18:43	aka	yeah I think PHP is def in a better place than it was
18:44	deadghost	I haven't used enlive much but I'm liking it
18:44	deadghost	it's different
18:44	aka	I don't mind PHP as much as a lot of people I know but it def lacked conventions in a lot places
18:44	aka	func naming, arg order, etc.
18:44	hcumberdale	I've had a look at symphony, cakephp and so on but they are overkill :(
18:44	aka	ddima: I love me some flask
18:44	deadghost	django is ok but big
18:45	aka	it's what I use when building web services and sites in python
18:45	hcumberdale	deadghost: I don't like enlive because you are mixing things up again when using it. CSS selectors / Styles and page layout
18:45	aka	yep used django too but don't care for it
18:46	aka	PHP's ecosystem is a lot better too. Composer seems nice.
18:46	ddima	aka: ok, just thought there are not very many hoops to jump through to serve, unless you mean "quick hacks" like directly embedding a little bit of code directly into your markup, which is a nono ;)
18:46	aka	http://laravel.com/ << that framework seems clean too
18:46	hcumberdale	https://github.com/kremers/clojurewebtemplate << I prefer stencil / moustache templates
18:47	hcumberdale	ddima: code / markup seperation is generally a good idea! Mixing things may be okay in different use cases (where hiccup is also fine)
18:48	aka	ddima: yeah I meant in comparison to PHP's integration with apache. I am usually doing more advanced architectures that include caching proxies and what not but for the basic web developer I think PHP can be easier
18:49	hcumberdale	aka: do you know why heroku went away from caching proxies and why they prefer "per application / instance" caches?
18:50	aka	I also have always been the type of person that rather use PHP as the templating language rather than using another abstraction like smarty. I seperate templates of course but still just use PHP in templates
18:50	hcumberdale	For the ruby stack it's still there
18:50	deadghost	I might need to get a job soon
18:51	deadghost	HN makes it sound like people will throw money at any decent dev
18:51	hcumberdale	HN?
18:51	deadghost	hackernews
18:51	justin_smith	hell, they throw money at incompetent devs too
18:51	aka	news.ycombinator.com
18:51	justin_smith	I don't think the competence / money target thing is all that strong :)
18:51	justin_smith	all that strong a correlation that is
18:52	justin_smith	hell I got a salaried job
18:52	aka	hcumberdale: I'm not sure. I don't use heroku currently. Are you referring to the rapgenius drama several months back?
18:52	hcumberdale	No, rapgenius?
18:53	aka	nm I think they use ruby
18:53	aka	I was refering to this btw http://news.rapgenius.com/James-somers-herokus-ugly-secret-lyrics
18:54	ddima	aka: ahok, thought code-wise. yeah, mod-wsgi is slightly more complicated
18:54	logic_prog	is there a javascript tool for converting a pdf to a png? (pdf.js I thikn converts pdf to css/svg/html)
18:54	aka	logic_prog: you can output png with phantomjs I believe
18:55	logic_prog	as in pdf.js + phantom js + take a virtual screen shot?
18:55	logic_prog	oh shit, I'm in #clojure, not #javascript
18:55	logic_prog	apologies
18:55	deadghost	justin_smith, is the job market really that soft for devs?
18:55	ddima	deadghost: well, market is good right now (at least in EU, i guess US too), but competence and compensation are not always linked ;)
18:55	deadghost	since I have no degree and have really no benchmark for what qualifies as hireable
18:56	ddima	so never worked as dev?
18:56	deadghost	nope
18:56	justin_smith	deadghost: I have no post-highschool credentials and got very bad grades in highschool
18:56	justin_smith	I was in special ed until the saw the books I was reading in my free time
18:57	ddima	deadghost: still doable, I started and had good jobs before studying years later (and earned sh** as a student/parttime ;))
18:57	TEttinger	justin_smith, you're special, just not in that sense
18:57	hcumberdale	aka: wow. but that they haven't recognized it from the beginning. Nearly 1sec should be noticable
18:57	justin_smith	on the other hand, I had some experience with lisp family languages, and someone was ramping up clojure on their backend, so they welcomed me with open arms and I started learning clojure as fast as I could
18:57	justin_smith	TEttinger: thanks, I think
18:57	ddima	deadghost: just have something to show, read, know your linux and be a quick learner (you'll have to convince a little) - done ;)
18:58	justin_smith	when I say experience, I mean "hacked with it on the weekends while working in a warehouse"
18:59	ddima	justin_smith: interesting path :D
18:59	justin_smith	it was fun to be sure
18:59	TEttinger	heh, I went to sorta a special ed high school. meant for high-functioning autism kids, aspergers kids, kids with a lot of symptoms from adhd, and so on.
18:59	aka	I didn't graduate highschool or college. I just slowly built up experience. I believe the most important thing to many companies is experience/proven ability. For senior roles anyways.
18:59	hcumberdale	deadghost: you are searching for a full time position as dev? EU ?
18:59	deadghost	what kind of warehouse puts you on linux
18:59	aka	Never had issues with my lack of diploma or degree
18:59	deadghost	nope US california
18:59	justin_smith	I am just lucky I found a hobby that is somewhat rare as a skill, and lucritive
19:00	aka	justin_smith: that's exactly how I feel
19:00	justin_smith	deadghost: hell they didn't even let me use a computer in the warehouse
19:00	justin_smith	I was hacking on the weekend
19:00	ddima	I was into OpenVMS as a kid, but no diagnosed autism or anything ;)
19:00	aka	haha
19:00	deadghost	I wish I started earlier
19:01	deadghost	but I was never introduced to programming early on
19:01	deadghost	highschool had one java course that they stopped teaching after one run
19:01	deadghost	taught from o reilly's headfirst java
19:01	hcumberdale	ouch
19:01	TEttinger	head injury first
19:02	justin_smith	I was introduced, but my father was a weirdo conspiracy nut who refused to get a computer, so I didn't start really programming until much later in life. Due to the "alternative school" path I didn't actually really learn to use a computer until I was in my '20s
19:02	hcumberdale	hating this books. Still seeing "Head first servlets" in my sleep. Hunting me ...
19:02	deadghost	I thought headfirst html was good
19:02	deadghost	the sql and php books not so much
19:02	hcumberdale	All clojure / lisp books were pure gold compared to Head first whatever
19:03	justin_smith	http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/t-y-scheme/t-y-scheme.html I like this one just for the title
19:03	ddima	it's never too late, I know mulitple people who became really good within two years full-time job, which some prior knowledge, but really juniorjunior in the beginning. Starting out as a kid doesnt necessarily help too much with complex problem solving ability and thinking. many just write small webapps or CMS in PHP or stuff like that, which doesnt go very deep. so no worries ;)
19:04	ddima	justin_smith: well, he was right, look at the NSA now! ;)
19:04	deadghost	I have a friend that's always ranting about google and the nsa
19:04	deadghost	I mean
19:04	deadghost	he was right
19:04	deadghost	but he's still nutty
19:04	ddima	justin_smith: What I really liked (non clojure/lisp stuff) were Andrew Tanenbaums books, especially modern operating systems and skienas algorithm design manual
19:04	aka	everyone knew the NSA was spying on us... right?
19:04	aka	I mean I just assumed they were.
19:05	ddima	aka: on the internet, yes, since the late 80s ;)
19:05	justin_smith	hell, they wouldn't even aknowledge the NSA existed, so come on
19:06	deadghost	I want to say RMS is crazy but he's kind of always right
19:06	ddima	we need people like this, but not too many
19:07	ddima	I like some of his essays (dont like his talks): https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read
19:07	hcumberdale	RMS is super awesome :D
19:08	deadghost	I thought he just wrote one talk
19:08	deadghost	and kept giving it for 20 years
19:08	ddima	He "felt" the "war on general purpose computing" in 97...
19:09	ddima	cory doctorow also has an interesting talk on that subject from the 28c3 if anyone is interested
19:09	ddima	(not looking at apple <cough>)
19:09	aka	RMS is galvenizing :D
19:10	deadghost	people would probably take him more seriously if he wasn't an overweight neckbeard
19:10	deadghost	with a video of him eating something from his foot
19:10	ddima	what?
19:10	clojurebot	what is exceptions
19:10	deadghost	ddima, http://youtu.be/I25UeVXrEHQ
19:11	deadghost	I think that was it
19:11	justin_smith	ddima: a classic, he was an expert witness in some court hearing iirc
19:11	justin_smith	and starts eating his toe fungus
19:11	justin_smith	or something off his toes
19:11	justin_smith	maybe he was keeping pieces of jerky under his toenails
19:11	ddima	deadghost: he just hides acid blotters between his toes
19:12	justin_smith	that would explain it
19:12	justin_smith	that would also explain emacs
19:12	ddima	hehe, well, havent seen that one so far, but still, he has done a lot
19:12	justin_smith	(as I type that into erc)
19:17	ddima	so, we learn once again: dont watch stallman, just read ;)
19:20	rads	dnolen: I have some ideas for om but I'd like to write a little about them first. where would be the best place to post them? github issue, link to a gist, wiki?
20:02	dnolen	rads: feel to free to open up a github issue to start the conversation
20:03	dnolen	rads: some things are changing soon
20:03	dnolen	as far as how paths are handled, and I think I have a decent solution for rendering "lists" of children
20:17	hcumberdale	How to use deftype? I don't understand it :(
20:19	hcumberdale	No implementation of method: :dsave of protocol: ...
20:21	gfredericks	hcumberdale: might be an arity mismatch
20:28	gfredericks	(defprotocol I (m [_])) (deftype T [] I (m [_] 42)) (m (T.)) ;; => 42
20:38	hcumberdale	gfredericks: In all examples I find 'this' or '_' as the first parameter of every method
20:39	hcumberdale	Isn't that bad design if there is no use for it?
20:39	justin_smith	the argument will be the thing dispatched on
20:40	decaf	(javadoc Math) opens url in swing. how can I tell it use the flippin web browser?
20:40	justin_smith	_ is a conventional name for things you don't use
20:40	justin_smith	decaf: your jvm is misconfigured for your OS
20:40	hcumberdale	Yeah, but for java interop I carry unused things over my interfaces
20:41	decaf	I shouldn't use that alpha stage package builder script
20:41	justin_smith	hcumberdale: someone implementing a protocol / method implementation can choose to use an inpout arg or not
20:41	justin_smith	_ is a clear way to indicate the value is unused and does not matter
20:42	justin_smith	*input
20:42	gfredericks	hcumberdale: I've used the first arg occasionally, especially if I have a defrecord and want to preserve metadata/extra-keys
20:43	gfredericks	(e.g., (assoc this :foo 42) rather than (->Record 42)
20:43	justin_smith	a common pattern for me is to implement a record that specializes my protocol, and use fields of the record to further specialize for each record instance
20:43	justin_smith	(this is in putting together a plugin system)
20:45	hcumberdale	I want an abstract datasource. For example the ability to choose filesystem or database.
20:46	technomancy	hcumberdale: using _ as the dispatch value means you're dispatching on something essentially meaningless. usually a sign that you're letting protocols dictate the arity, which means you should be using multimethods unless they're too slow for the task at hand.
20:46	hcumberdale	(defprotocol xy_storage
20:46	hcumberdale	(dsave [_ dd])
20:46	hcumberdale	(dload [_ dd]))
20:47	justin_smith	so the information in the individual storage instance is not useful while saving or loading?
20:47	justin_smith	that seems an odd design choice
20:48	justin_smith	why not initialize the thing that can be stored / loaded with some data that tells it how to do so?
20:48	hcumberdale	https://www.refheap.com/22240
20:48	justin_smith	I don't see why that is even a protocol, it is just a function on dd
20:49	hcumberdale	justin_smith: remembering how it would be done in java. maybe a bad idea
20:49	justin_smith	the natural thing (to me) would be to put the info for the storage directory / database connection in the type
20:49	hcumberdale	defprotocol generates an interface. This would normally be my choise/way here
20:49	justin_smith	and dd would just be the data to store or load
20:50	justin_smith	right
20:50	justin_smith	I am just saying, the thing implementing the protocol can actually store some useful information
20:50	hcumberdale	justin_smith: then I'm ending up with a tight coupled dispatching method
20:50	justin_smith	I have no idea what that means
20:50	justin_smith	the type still decides how to use its fields
20:50	justin_smith	but it may as well cary its config
20:51	justin_smith	*carry
20:51	hcumberdale	justin_smith: that has different downsides I think
20:51	justin_smith	if all the info for loading/storage is in dd, then you are doing all the work by hand
20:51	justin_smith	that the protocol / deftype could be doing for you
20:51	hcumberdale	for example the redundant information. Not both db and fs should be used.
20:51	justin_smith	right
20:52	justin_smith	so one type has a db field
20:52	justin_smith	it has its implementation of the protocol
20:52	hcumberdale	For example how I would do it in java with spring
20:52	hcumberdale	1. Create interfaces 2. implement it n times with different logic 3. wire it up & success
20:52	justin_smith	the type should have fields appropriate for configuring that type, and the protocol implementation should use those fields in order to do its job
20:53	justin_smith	ok a protocol is an interface
20:53	justin_smith	the logic is in the protocol's type specific implementation
20:53	justin_smith	the configuration is in the type's fields
20:54	hcumberdale	yeah. I do not have the wiring and have to write it by myself, sure
20:54	justin_smith	otherwise you are just doing redundant work matching up the right config to the right type by hand
20:54	justin_smith	that is what that first arg is for
20:54	justin_smith	it is the thing with those config fields you would use
20:54	hcumberdale	justin_smith: seen my refheap?
20:54	justin_smith	yes
20:55	justin_smith	you are not using the type at all, it may as well be (Object.)
20:55	justin_smith	you are doing the work the system should be doing for you, by hand, by using dd
20:55	hcumberdale	yeah, understanding my issue? I want seperated functional, testable code
20:55	justin_smith	absolutely
20:56	justin_smith	I don't see what that has to do with this though
20:57	hcumberdale	Having the information about how to persist data in the type means that all the logic to choose different strategies belongs to the type/implementation
20:58	justin_smith	and you think that is a bad idea?
20:58	hcumberdale	Yes. That's what I learned :)
20:58	justin_smith	I don't know why you are using a type in t hat case
20:59	hcumberdale	You can't swap implementations. That is the power the interface provides
20:59	justin_smith	just write a function
20:59	justin_smith	you don't need types if that is the design you want
20:59	hcumberdale	justin_smith: I need defprotocol to generate an interface, right?
20:59	justin_smith	why do you need an interface?
20:59	justin_smith	just write a function
20:59	justin_smith	pass it some args
21:00	hcumberdale	hmpf.
21:00	justin_smith	protocols are for when you have a type that specializes a behavior
21:00	justin_smith	using a protocol but ignoring the type is silly
21:01	hcumberdale	justin_smith: that's not possible.
21:01	hcumberdale	I "use" the type. I'm not ignoring it.
21:01	justin_smith	all you care about is which protocol specialization is attached to it
21:01	justin_smith	why use a type
21:01	justin_smith	just pick a function
21:02	hcumberdale	and how to use defprotocol and replace them by configuration?
21:02	hcumberdale	It will result in a bunch of functions like create,read,update,delete
21:02	justin_smith	sure
21:03	hcumberdale	All implemented different for database, filesystem or whatever
21:03	hcumberdale	and you want me to implement all of them with different names? Without protocols / interfaces?
21:05	hcumberdale	And have a big dispatching function that resolves the right function everywhere?
21:05	justin_smith	https://www.refheap.com/22241 this is what I mean
21:05	hcumberdale	Or thousands of (if then else else else ) bricks around every persistence touching action
21:06	justin_smith	the type itself should be used
21:06	bstro9000	hey, i'm trying to understand the following line, that spits out a lazy sequence of fibonacci numbers... can anyone explain to me what the [[ a b ]] bit means? It looks like arguments to the anonymous function, but why is it wrapped in double brackets? => (def fib (map first (iterate (fn [[a b]] [b (+ a b)]) [0 1])))
21:06	bstro9000	^ clj noob here, btw.
21:06	justin_smith	bstro9000: it is destructuring
21:06	justin_smith	,(let [[a b c] [1 2 3]] [b a c])
21:06	clojurebot	[2 1 3]
21:07	arrdem	(inc justin_smith)
21:07	lazybot	⇒ 22
21:07	logic_prog	how does react/om handle which svg element is on top?
21:07	justin_smith	it mirrors the shape of the data it refers to
21:07	hcumberdale	justin_smith: that is just a configuration value passed... don't know how that should solve my problem
21:07	bstro9000	justin_smith: thanks a bunch!
21:08	bstro9000	that makes sense
21:08	justin_smith	hcumberdale: I thought you were complaining that the first argument to protocols was useless / bad design
21:08	justin_smith	I am showing how it is typically usefull
21:08	cgag	is there a way to lookup a key in a map that'll throw an exception if the key isn't there?
21:09	arrdem	cgag: you could have a (throw (Exception. "well crap")) as your alternative value...
21:09	arrdem	,(get {} :foo (throw (Exception. "FUUUUUU")))
21:09	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: FUUUUUU>
21:09	hcumberdale	justin_smith: agreed.
21:10	justin_smith	arrdem: you need laziness for that to work properly
21:11	cgag	arrdem: yeah that's pretty nasty though, i've got a better idea for my particular use case, was just curious
21:11	bstro9000	justin_smith: referring back to my question, what is [[a b]] destructuring to? there doesnt appear to be another vector to decompose it to, as there is in your example
21:11	cgag	justin_smith: good point
21:11	fakedrake	hello!
21:11	justin_smith	bstro9000: the argument to the function
21:12	justin_smith	,(get {:a 0} :a (lazy-seq [(throw (Exception. "Not Found"))]))
21:12	clojurebot	0
21:12	justin_smith	kind of a hack
21:12	bstro9000	justin_smith: i guess i just dont understand why the function isnt merely asking for two arguments. whats the advantage of the double brackets over single brackets in this case? (feels like i'm missing something here)
21:12	hcumberdale	What's the common way to dispatch to the different interface implementations in clojure?
21:12	justin_smith	bstro9000: because it is recursive and a function cannot return two values
21:12	bstro9000	huh! i feel like i just learned something.
21:12	fakedrake	some time ago i came across a project of which clojure was supposed to use a superset to parse the program structure. It's name was an acronym like eda or sth but I cannot remember exactly
21:13	justin_smith	fakedrake: edn
21:13	bstro9000	justin_smith: thanks again
21:13	justin_smith	np
21:13	arrdem	fakedrake: yeah it's just edn
21:13	fakedrake	edn eys! thank you
21:13	arrdem	$google clojure tools reader
21:13	lazybot	[clojure/tools.reader · GitHub] https://github.com/clojure/tools.reader
21:14	fakedrake	and there is a python implementation! what could go better?
21:15	arrdem	hehe yeah. why would you ever use json again? :P
21:15	arrdem	$google javascript edn reader
21:15	lazybot	[Implementations · edn-format/edn Wiki · GitHub] https://github.com/edn-format/edn/wiki/Implementations
21:16	cjfrisz	Style question: when doing let bindings in a for, when do you use the :let in the for's binding vector vs. a let expression in its body?
21:16	cjfrisz	Any convention on that?
21:16	arrdem	cjfrisz: the :let is provided to make your code more consise. using it is a good thing, but optional.
21:16	technomancy	cjfrisz: no real reason to ever avoid :let
21:17	cjfrisz	arrdem technomancy: that was my default, but I wanted to see if there was an implicit rule about :let bindings referring to the for's bindings
21:17	cjfrisz	It would seem that's not the case, though
21:18	justin_smith	bstro9000: this may be better, in terms of preventing an overeaber misfire: (get {:a 0} :a (future (throw (Exception. "Not Found"))))
21:18	justin_smith	still feels hacky though
21:18	bstro9000	I am certain that I don't understand what you just typed. But maybe someday I will.
21:18	justin_smith	bstro9000: oops, misdirected that
21:19	arrdem	justin_smith: I don't know if that works... the future could create the exception in a different threead and then everything goes to hell
21:19	bstro9000	haha ok
21:19	justin_smith	cgag: the above was meant for you, sorry ^^
21:19	arrdem	justin_smith: useing (contains?) to force lazyness is probably the nicest way to do this...
21:20	justin_smith	arrdem: I guess there could just be an (assert (contains? ...)) too
21:20	arrdem	,(fn griping-get [m k] (when (contains? m k) (m k) (throw (Exception. "Crap not found."))))
21:20	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval25$griping_get__26 sandbox$eval25$griping_get__26@11b2664>
21:20	arrdem	,(doc assert)
21:20	clojurebot	"([x] [x message]); Evaluates expr and throws an exception if it does not evaluate to logical true."
21:20	justin_smith	arrdem: when?
21:20	justin_smith	arrdem: maybe you want if
21:20	arrdem	justin_smit: yeah if.
21:21	arrdem	meh
21:21	justin_smith	(#(do (assert (contains? % %2)) (get % %2)) {:a 0} :a)
21:21	justin_smith	,(#(do (assert (contains? % %2)) (get % %2)) {:a 0} :a)
21:21	clojurebot	0
21:22	justin_smith	,(#(do (assert (contains? % %2)) (get % %2)) {:a 0} :b)
21:22	clojurebot	#<AssertionError java.lang.AssertionError: Assert failed: (contains? p1__101# p2__102#)>
21:22	justin_smith	too bad about the ugly macro names though
21:25	arrdem	justin_smith: eh gensyms. got a better way to name 'em?
21:27	ddellacosta	is this the best way to get CI integration w/Jenkins? https://github.com/jenkinsci/leiningen-plugin
21:28	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: jenkins lets you just write little scripts, I usually give it a directory and a leiningen command to run
21:28	hcumberdale	If some instance is defined for defprotocol, how to access it without the specific name?
21:28	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: usually just lein test for testing, lein uberjar for build artifacts.
21:29	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: yeah, that's what I was thinking initially. Maybe that's the best approach anyways...
21:29	justin_smith	,((fn [haystack needle] (assert (contains? haystack needle)) (get haystack needle)) {:a 0} :b)
21:29	clojurebot	#<AssertionError java.lang.AssertionError: Assert failed: (contains? haystack needle)>
21:29	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: it's simple.
21:29	technomancy	ddellacosta: I'd just check a bin/test script into your repo and have jenkins run that
21:30	technomancy	bin/bootstrap if it's nontrival to set up a fresh checkout, and then bin/ci if you have jenkins-specific stuff
21:30	bitemyapp	justin_smith: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.6.0.1/docs/src/Data-List.html#isInfixOf
21:30	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: ^^
21:30	technomancy	that way your commands are tracked in git too.
21:30	bitemyapp	justin_smith: your haystack/needle thing reminded me of the code I just linked. I rather liked the code.
21:30	ddellacosta	technomancy: yeah, I will do a test setup and see what works--that sounds like a pretty good setup, thanks!
21:31	technomancy	having to coordinate changes in git with changes in jenkins config is a nightmare, which you get if there's anything more complex than "run bin/ci" in your jenkins config
21:31	ddellacosta	technomancy: yeah, in my past life doing RoR CI with jenkins, we had a much more complicated setup that was, as you say, a nightmare...
21:32	bitemyapp	this is probably why we don't actually do CI at my company
21:32	bitemyapp	it's just a test server.
21:32	bitemyapp	it doesn't check anything in or push anything.
21:32	bitemyapp	that would require me trying to convince my coworkers to exert more discipline than they're currently wont to do.
21:33	technomancy	bitemyapp: it just logs each run off to a well-documented and accessible location?
21:33	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: I just want something that automatically runs tests in a centralized location (our team is pretty distributed) after checkins to a main branch, and notifies people/logs/all the above
21:33	bitemyapp	technomancy: we just look at the build history on Jenkins itself.
21:33	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: that's all ours does. Triggers a run of the tests on check-in.
21:34	hcumberdale	https://www.refheap.com/22240
21:34	ddellacosta	yeah, I mean, fundamentally that's all I need...but Jenkins comes with a bunch of other stuff that could be useful to leverage
21:34	hcumberdale	do I have to use type hints ?
21:35	justin_smith	hcumberdale: you need to implment xy_storage on the my.namespace.param
21:35	justin_smith	right now, from what you show, it is only implemented for xy_storage, which you are not passing in
21:36	hcumberdale	but when I use something like (dsave (->xy_storage) x) I need to tell about my strategy at this point :(
21:37	justin_smith	hcumberdale: you would create the strategy when creating the xy_storage instance, yes. If you need a different strategy you make a different instance of xy_storage
21:38	hcumberdale	justin_smith: meaning all the code for all different data stores is in xy_storage?
21:38	justin_smith	is in the individual instances of xy_storage
21:39	hcumberdale	ahh okay.
21:39	justin_smith	that's why I suggested xy_storage should have fields, specializing how it stores
21:39	justin_smith	but you would need to add fields to the type, and use those fields in the protocol impl
21:39	justin_smith	as I tried to show above in my version of your paste
21:39	hcumberdale	isn't there a way to include implementations (conditional) by the reader, talking only to the interface?
21:42	justin_smith	I don't understand that question, sorry
21:42	hcumberdale	like a namespace app.storage.db and app.storage.fs ? Where I can choose what implementation is loaded from the reader?
21:43	hcumberdale	justin_smith: example: 1 file with the db implementation for persistence
21:43	hcumberdale	2. file with the filesystem implementation
21:43	justin_smith	how I use a protocol: the base library implments a protocol, and has functions that call methods on that protocol
21:44	justin_smith	the end user of the lib creates things that implement the protocol, and pass them to functions in the base lib
21:44	hcumberdale	To write an conditional include shouldn't be the problem. But how to access the methods behind.
21:45	justin_smith	it flattens out dependency loops, because all the underlying library cares about is the protocol methods it defines, it is up to the user to pass something in that will work
21:45	justin_smith	so for your example, the base lib just calls dsave or dload on the object passed in
21:45	justin_smith	the end user decides on how those are implmented
21:47	hcumberdale	justin_smith: okay. that's another way how to deal with it (inside out)
21:47	justin_smith	for the rightside out case, you don't need a protocol
21:47	justin_smith	the library defines a function, the end user calls it
21:47	justin_smith	end of story
21:47	hcumberdale	coming from java I've only know about the best practices there and how EJB3 services and so on work
22:08	cjfrisz	Hmm...how do you look at a stack trace using cider in emacs?
22:08	cjfrisz	As in, the thing I just typed into the repl blew up and I want to look at the associated stack trace
22:12	Raynes	cjfrisz: It didn't just pop the stack trace up?
22:13	Raynes	I mean, you can use (clojure.repl/pst *e) to slightly-pretty-print the stacktrace.
22:13	Raynes	But it should open a buffer with the trace automatically afaik.
22:13	cjfrisz	Raynes: nope, just printed the source of the exception inline in the repl
22:13	Raynes	But then again, I haven't used Emacs since before cider was cider.
22:13	cjfrisz	Plus, I didn't see a stacktrace buffer in my buffer
22:14	cjfrisz	Yeah, this seems to be a change with cider, because I also remember getting a stacktrace buffer automatically in nrepl
22:15	arrdem	if so it's a new change to cider. the cider version I'm running does pop an error buffer.
22:16	cjfrisz	arrdem: I'm using whatever version is on marmalade
22:17	cjfrisz	Should I be using bleeding edge?
22:17	cjfrisz	Is it still too early to be using cider instead of nrepl?
22:17	technomancy	cjfrisz: it says in the readme how to turn on what you want
22:17	technomancy	some setq
22:18	technomancy	kind of baffling that it doesn't do it for you, but whatever
22:18	cjfrisz	technomancy: Ah, yeah, forgot to go check that piece of docs
22:18	cjfrisz	Thanks
22:18	technomancy	np. I'msure you could find it with apropos-variable too
22:18	arrdem	cjfrisz: I've heard it said here that cider is still too new to use, I haven't personally had issues with it yet.
22:19	cjfrisz	arrdem: I've mostly had good luck with it, but Stuart Sierra said he was wary via the Twitters some time back
22:20	arrdem	cjfrisz: yeah. I'm an Arch Linux user, so bleeding edge is my norm. Which also implies some willingness to fix your own tools...
22:21	arrdem	s/implies/demands/g
22:21	gfredericks	I've been using cider
22:21	cjfrisz	arrdem: same here
22:21	gfredericks	the only big thing I've noticed is that `cider-restart` doesn't seem to work
22:21	arrdem	yeah can confirm that cider-restart craps out.
22:21	gfredericks	so I just cider-quit & cider-jack-in or whatever manually
22:22	arrdem	{we\|I} should open a ticket...
22:22	cjfrisz	arrdem: I bet we both have the same problem of "oooh, a shiny new version of a thing I use!" /me upgrades and promptly has tons of trouble
22:22	cjfrisz	I guess they call that being an early adopter
22:22	cjfrisz	aka sucker
22:23	arrdem	hehe. As long as I have enough of my system either cached or under version control to roll back and achieve a sane state I'm OK with some of that.
22:23	gfredericks	arrdem: I'll go open a ticket
22:23	gfredericks	arrdem: if you'll back me up
22:23	arrdem	gfredericks: totally.
22:25	gfredericks	arrdem: https://github.com/clojure-emacs/cider/issues/439
22:26	arrdem	gfredericks: thanks
22:27	gfredericks	phew now I don't look crazy
22:27	gfredericks	...for submitting the issue at least
22:27	arrdem	haha. nice currying library btw!
22:28	arrdem	I hadn't seen it before...
22:30	gdev	people ask why I like watching UFC. after reading "x language vs y language" articles all the time its nice to see things that can actually verse each other and have a clear winner at the end
22:31	arrdem	gfredericks: the qbits toolkit is hillarious. very nice.
22:31	gfredericks	arrdem: oh the readme?
22:31	gfredericks	and such
22:32	gfredericks	arrdem: thanks on both accounts
22:35	gdev	cider is just a renaming of nrepl.el right? I haven't seen a difference since the key combo for jack-in is the same
22:35	gfredericks	arrdem: the qubits was fun to write because it made OOP seem anomolously appropriate: http://hacklog.gfredericks.com/2013/07/23/object-oriented-qubits.html
22:36	gdev	I do like how it opens up the repl buffer as a split window under my current buffer instead of sending me to the single buffer view
22:38	arrdem	gfredericks: that's why I was entertained reading the README. It makes a mockery of the things that Clojure usually insulates you from.
22:38	arrdem	gfredericks: the side-effecting read is still cute, abet accurate.
22:41	gfredericks	I think that might have been the only time I've had a legit use for coordinated updates w/ refs
22:55	gdev	rhg135, okay I just found it. it's C-c M-p
22:57	rhg135	whaa
22:57	rhg135	gdev, what did I do?
22:58	Clome	i heard something about UFC, shits going down on 29th
22:59	gdev	rhg135, were you asking earlier today how to put a form in the repl buffer?
23:00	rhg135	i don't even use emacs, gdev
23:00	gdev	rhg135, so that's a no
23:00	rhg135	gdev, nope lol
23:00	gdev	well shit now I need to read the logs
23:02	gdev	oh and of course, lgs32a isn't even online now
23:02	gdev	that's who was asking
23:03	technomancy	who's looking for a library name? https://www.adafruit.com/blog/2013/12/24/turbo-encabulator/
23:03	justin_smith	mmm, turbo enchiladas sound yummy
23:05	gdev	technomancy, cool, now I just need a library
23:40	rhg135	well now the handlers do run but after the client closes the sockets
23:44	rhg135	ok this is weird af
23:45	rhg135	now it's running in real time and i get it in my log, but it's not writing to my socket
23:59	rhg135	https://bitbucket.org/rhg135/jimjure/src/f27e70281846513c7170246e4b89246030704e9a/src/jimjure/json.clj?at=dev#cl-18 isn't doing anything