#clojure – 2013-12-24

2013-12-24

01:50	sm0ke	OK this is weird, are comments not allowed inside body of a function?
01:51	ddellacosta	sm0ke: that is most definitely not the case.
01:53	sm0ke	ddellacosta: right i found a bug in my ide
01:53	ddellacosta	sm0ke: :-)
01:53	pcn	ddellacosta: I fixed my performance problem from last night by replacing my socket code with aleph.
01:54	ddellacosta	oh, I think you were talking to someone else about that--I only remember the file linking weirdness
01:54	ddellacosta	pcn: nonetheless, happy to hear it. :-)
01:59	pcn	ddellacosta: I finished asking how to do performance troubleshooting. I figured I did something wrong, so I figured I'd try a competant library instead.
01:59	ddellacosta	pcn: gotcha...what were you using for socket stuff anyways? Default Java libs?
02:04	pcn	I was using a slightly changed version of technomancy/server-socket.
02:04	pcn	I wanted it to pass back client info, so I did some copypasta, and probably broke it.
02:05	ddellacosta	gotcha.
02:11	jonasen	I'm thinking of finally switching to cider. It says in the readme that I should remove the old nrepl.el package. Is it enough to simply remove ~/.emacs.d/elpa/nrepl-0.1.8/ and remove all references to nrepl in init.el?
02:32	pcn	Is there an atoi function for clojure? I have crud coming from the network, so I'd like to avoid read-string
02:33	TEttinger	yes, there are a few
02:33	TEttinger	atoi converts a string like "11" to 11, right?
02:33	TEttinger	,(Integer/parseInt "11")
02:33	clojurebot	11
02:34	TEttinger	,(read-string "11")
02:34	clojurebot	11
02:34	TEttinger	oh you said read-string
02:34	TEttinger	the java parseInt or parseLong is your best bet then
02:35	TEttinger	,(Integer/parseInt "whee 11")
02:35	clojurebot	#<NumberFormatException java.lang.NumberFormatException: For input string: "whee 11">
02:35	pcn	Thanks
02:36	logic_prog	what is the most idiomatic way in pure clojure (no java involved) for implementing matrix operations
02:37	nones	,(Integer. (re-find #"\d+" "whee 11"))
02:37	clojurebot	11
02:39	sm0ke	when i do a `lein test` my :dependencies are not in the classpath
02:39	sm0ke	how do i fix this?
02:39	nones	logic_prog: you can use https://github.com/clojure-numerics/core.matrix
02:44	dsrx	,(read-string "\"foo\"")
02:44	clojurebot	"foo"
02:44	dsrx	,(doc read-string)
02:44	clojurebot	"([s]); Reads one object from the string s. Note that read-string can execute code (controlled by read-eval), and as such should be used only with trusted sources. For data structure interop use clojure.edn/read-string"
02:51	TEttinger	here the read-string is probably sandboxed with read-eval, I'd be surprised if clojurebot didn't, and I know lazybot does
02:52	nones	,read-eval
02:52	clojurebot	false
02:53	TEttinger	yep
03:07	akurilin	Has anybody here found a solid end-to-end logging solution yet by any chance?
03:08	akurilin	Something that can aggregate error logs throughout the entire stack
03:08	akurilin	Totally a new startup idea somewhere in there :P
03:14	bitemyapp	akurilin: could you provide an example of what parts of your stack would have their logs get aggregated?
03:14	bitemyapp	akurilin: generally speaking, by the time a company needs something like that - they have the resources to slap together log centralization themselves.
03:16	sm0ke	akurilin: why isnt log4j good enought?
03:17	sm0ke	if you want fancy logging solutions, there is splunk
03:17	bitemyapp	sm0ke: he might mean pulling everything, including db logs and the like. I'm not sure how much that sort of thing matters for most people.
03:17	sm0ke	but its paid
03:17	bitemyapp	sm0ke: there are better, free-r options than Splunk. Come now.
03:17	bitemyapp	http://logstash.net/ and Kibana come to mind.
03:17	sm0ke	bitemyapp: like?
03:17	sm0ke	Kibana is just a UI
03:18	sm0ke	it can sit on top of splunk
03:18	bitemyapp	ick.
03:18	bitemyapp	Splunk is terrible.
03:18	bitemyapp	Just use elasticsearch if you're going to bother.
03:18	sm0ke	bitemyapp: exactly my point
03:18	bitemyapp	sm0ke: ...that's what logstash is.
03:18	sm0ke	you can have a log4j appender to elasticsearch and you are done
03:18	bitemyapp	but most people don't know how to query ES, therefore...Kibana.
03:19	bitemyapp	timbre appender, more like.
03:19	bitemyapp	fuck log4j.
03:19	sm0ke	nah
03:19	bitemyapp	XML configuration garbage.
03:19	sm0ke	timbre sucks too
03:19	bitemyapp	timbre sucks less than log4j.
03:19	sm0ke	well i prefer simple properties file
03:19	sm0ke	logging is not rocket science afterall
03:21	sm0ke	my setup is tools.logging + log4j appenders.
03:26	akurilin	I was thinking something that'd allow me to get what's essentially an error trace for a user across the stack
03:26	akurilin	so a user made a call to the backend
03:26	akurilin	there was error there
03:26	akurilin	the error is logged
03:26	akurilin	the client errors out
03:26	akurilin	the client's error is logged
03:27	akurilin	eventually I'd have non-error-only logs too so I can see what the activity was that led to the error
03:27	akurilin	bitemyapp: the second statement sounds reasonable
03:27	akurilin	I'm suspecting that you can get away without it for a very long time.
03:28	akurilin	At the very least you want something that will tell you that somewhere in the stack there are people experiencing errors, so perhaps aggregating them into one place is one way of addressing both clients and servers at once.
03:28	akurilin	iOS has Crashlytics
03:28	akurilin	Backends have PaperTrail
03:28	akurilin	JS has JSLogger/Errorception
03:31	sm0ke	akurilin: there is two ways to think about this with same end results
03:32	sm0ke	akurilin: either you aggregate logs from many machines to one place
03:32	sm0ke	akurilin: or you log locally to a place which is already aggregated
03:33	akurilin	sm0ke: I don't see how the latter would be applicable to a javascript situation, but I'm also pretty uncreative at times :)
03:34	akurilin	sm0ke: js in a browser, to be precise.
03:34	akurilin	Not node.
03:35	sm0ke	akurilin: doesnt matters where it is, just have 10 es clusters running with browsers sending write request to any of them
03:35	sm0ke	i mean 10 node cluster
03:36	akurilin	Not sure I'm following.
03:37	sm0ke	although it not common to have logging for browsers
03:37	sm0ke	akurilin: what are you logging in the browser?
03:38	akurilin	Well, I have a pretty large MVC app and I need to know when it craps out for some reason.
03:38	akurilin	It's a clone of our iOS app, which for a year has been using Crashlytics pretty successfully to track client errors.
03:39	akurilin	Crashlytics is pretty nice. It gives you the stack trace, when / how often it occurred, some stats etc, gives you warning. Easy to spot when there's a sudden surge in errors.
03:39	sm0ke	akurilin: i see, ok well i dont know how craslytics works, but ultimatley it would be sending cash reports to servers right?
03:39	sm0ke	crash*
03:39	akurilin	Yes it does.
03:41	sm0ke	well, why cant you? ulness you do not want to take pain of provisioning servers for handling crash reports too
03:41	sm0ke	what is you application?
03:41	sm0ke	is it pure client side, with no server interaction?
03:41	akurilin	sm0ke: nothing preventing me from writing this myself, but I was looking for something off the shelf / SaaSsy
03:42	sm0ke	akurilin: ah i see
03:42	sm0ke	akurilin: well on crashlytics homepage i see it supports android too
03:42	akurilin	Carving out time for infrasturcture work is always rough.
03:43	sm0ke	ah ok
03:43	sm0ke	you have a generic brwoser app
03:45	akurilin	I beg to differ, it's very special to me! ;)
03:46	sm0ke	heh i meant cross platform webapp
03:46	sm0ke	well i think splunk would be one
03:47	bitemyapp	Splunk is terrible.
03:48	akurilin	Oh yeah, I always wondered what splunk was, heard the company was very successful very fast.
03:48	sm0ke	no its not terrible if its the leading player in log analysis
03:49	sm0ke	it may be terrible like oracle is terrible in db space
03:49	bitemyapp	I've used Splunk. It's terrible.
03:49	sm0ke	but you get the work done right?
03:49	bitemyapp	It's popular because it's accessible, not because it's good.
03:49	bitemyapp	Engineers should know better and just use something like ES + logstash.
03:49	bitemyapp	and then use a nice dashboard like Kibana, if they need such.
03:49	akurilin	"accessible" as in easy to install?
03:49	sm0ke	bitemyapp: well his point is also valid there is some operational cost to it
03:49	hyPiRion	akurilin: as in "easy", not "simple".
03:50	akurilin	hyPiRion: got it.
03:50	bitemyapp	sm0ke: derrr herrr derrr
03:50	akurilin	bitemyapp: lol.
03:50	bitemyapp	sky is blue, news at 11
03:51	akurilin	It seems like ES is the household name for a lot of problem solving these days, really need to spend some time on that.
03:51	sm0ke	well if you have a webapp , obsviously you are interacting with a server, how much does it take you to add one more rest endpoint for error reporting?
03:52	bitemyapp	Нет терпения для дураков. ((((((
03:52	bitemyapp	как будто я глупый.
03:52	sm0ke	рптглудтет упыйра
03:52	akurilin	bitemyapp: ;)
03:52	bitemyapp	мусора
03:53	akurilin	It's sad that you're probably better at typing cyrillic than I am
03:53	bitemyapp	akurilin: certain things make me grumpy. I'm cheating - phonetic keyboard.
03:53	bitemyapp	I don't use the native RU keyboard.
03:54	bitemyapp	I am not pro rusnetnik.
03:54	akurilin	bitemyapp: were you hiding your fluency in Russian from me this entire time?
03:54	bitemyapp	akurilin: I'm envious of the russians in the bay area. They have quite the community here. I know very little Russian.
03:55	akurilin	That's true, I've run into quite a few so far.
03:55	bitemyapp	I watch old Russian movies and read children's books from time to time. I can barely understand it, let alone say anything.
03:55	akurilin	Not a single Italian though :(
03:55	bitemyapp	akurilin: I work with a young woman who has Italian parents. One is Milanese.
03:56	bitemyapp	I guessed she had a milanese parent correctly :)
03:56	bitemyapp	I could tell by her appearance, haha.
03:56	akurilin	bitemyapp: that's still pretty impressive.
03:56	bitemyapp	akurilin: she speaks Italian just fine, so far as I know - but I'm not one to judge.
03:56	akurilin	bitemyapp: oh yeah, how so?
03:57	bitemyapp	akurilin: very fair skinned, angular facial features. If both her parents were italian as she said, definitely milanese or somewhere nearby.
03:57	akurilin	bitemyapp: still, you'd think there'd be more of them. I wonder if they don't end up in tech as often.
03:57	bitemyapp	I've been made to understand that the Italian culture, such as it exists in Italy, is very risk averse.
03:58	bitemyapp	they respect tenure and pensions more than entrepeneurial success.
03:58	hyPiRion	bitemyapp: I guess that's due to their economy these times
03:58	akurilin	To some extent yes. These days those options are shrinking though due to lack of jobs, and they and Spaniards move to the UK/Germany a lot
03:58	akurilin	apparently not the US though.
03:58	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: I doubt it would change much even if their economy improved.
03:59	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: a poor economy should encourage a wider ranging search for options, not a narrow internal focusedness.
03:59	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: the Irish are reacting in a more healthy way - seeking their careers abroad.
03:59	akurilin	Either you move or you live with mom until your 40s.
03:59	akurilin	Not that it matters since Italians seem to all live past 100 these days :P
04:00	sm0ke	hmm is living with your mom till 40 so dreadful?
04:00	bitemyapp	I'm not sure how you manage sexual or romantic relationships when you live with your parents.
04:00	sm0ke	ungrateful bastards are some of us!
04:00	akurilin	Stuck is a small apartment somewhere not being able to start your own family?
04:00	bitemyapp	It's a disgrace to live with one's parents past college-age where I'm from. I was out of the house at 17 - proudly.
04:01	akurilin	I don't judge, I'm just saying it makes it hard for some to reach some goals in life.
04:01	sm0ke	bitemyapp: derrr herrr derrr
04:01	akurilin	bitemyapp: and yeah this is hugely cultural
04:01	bitemyapp	I don't either, just describing the norms of my culture.
04:01	hyPiRion	bitemyapp: hm, it's opposite here. After the war, people was very risk averse due to the economy. Consequently, the new working generation is more entrepreneurial while the old ones claims we should be happy with a steady income and secure job
04:01	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: I'm less risk averse than my parents and I am dealing with a rougher economy in my young adulthood.
04:02	bitemyapp	I expect to retire because of my side business efforts, not at the age of 65 after a long time spent being salaried.
04:02	akurilin	I think people with skillsets like yours simply don't have to worry much about holding onto that one job for the rest of their lives.
04:02	bitemyapp	that's a part of it, but I don't assume programmers are impervious.
04:03	hyPiRion	There's always money in the banana stand.
04:03	bitemyapp	But a lot of the reason I made it is because of my appetite for risk. I could've easily gotten into a rut.
04:03	akurilin	shhh
04:03	bitemyapp	if I hadn't moved to NYC I might've been stuck for a long time.
04:04	akurilin	I'm curious how aversion to boredom compares to appetite for risk.
04:04	bitemyapp	akurilin: I have both. I'm simply an unsettled creature.
04:04	bitemyapp	akurilin: a study recently released showed that the best employees in a company were also the least satisfied.
04:04	bitemyapp	strivers are by definition, not content.
04:04	akurilin	and consequently the most likely to peace out, right?
04:05	bitemyapp	akurilin: hum. it made no comments there. I think the practical take-away is, "keep your best people empowered and stimulated"
04:05	akurilin	Well those two aren't exclusive. The strivers are always ready to bail, so you have to work extra hard to keep them stimulated.
04:06	bitemyapp	I don't know if I'd use the qualifier "always"
04:06	akurilin	Fair enough.
04:06	bitemyapp	I'd put it more in terms that the best people have the most options.
04:06	bitemyapp	you really don't want to create a company where only people who have no options stick around.
04:06	bitemyapp	but that's the default mode, so it's something you have to work actively against.
04:07	akurilin	That'd be a pretty bad situation to be in .
04:08	bitemyapp	akurilin: that's how it goes for most companies. They get 1-4 years apiece of the good people, the mediocre or bad people become lifers.
04:09	bitemyapp	Google's incredibly poor management is in essence subsidized by the quality labor they've locked up.
04:09	bitemyapp	but even at Google, that's a minority of the workforce.
04:09	akurilin	It's got to be hard to hire for these teams if you want to try to lift the average.
04:09	bitemyapp	well part of the problem might be that they hire directly for teams.
04:09	bitemyapp	Lack of internal mobility and self-direction of labor is a good way to make talent leave.
04:10	bitemyapp	akurilin: that's the problem my company solved, remember?
04:10	akurilin	bitemyapp: yes indeed.
04:11	akurilin	Is it actually solved? Is there data to support that this is sustainable over the long run?
04:11	bitemyapp	100 people so far, working fine.
04:11	bitemyapp	Valve seems to be rather successful as well.
04:11	akurilin	Valve is what, 400?
04:12	bitemyapp	Valve is even more aggressive version of what we do and they're even bigger.
04:12	bitemyapp	so I'd tend to believe you can get away with it at any scale a startup would care about.
04:12	bitemyapp	The problems of success can be dealt with when they arise.
04:12	clojurebot	I don't understand.
04:12	bitemyapp	~success is a problem you can deal with when you have it.
04:12	clojurebot	c'est bon!
04:12	bitemyapp	Good bot.
04:13	akurilin	Heh that's fair, I'm all about deferring issues until much later.
04:13	akurilin	As in, the ones that are completely irrelevant.
04:15	bitemyapp	startups are often bad at determining what really matters at a given point in time.
04:15	akurilin	Very much so.
04:16	akurilin	Seems like laziness is the way to go for the type of work startups do, as opposed to long-term planning.
04:16	akurilin	Even though, again, you never know if you're hitting local maxima all the time.
04:17	bitemyapp	not "laziness", just be strategic about where effort is allocated.
04:17	bitemyapp	Every single imaginable resource is limited when you're a startup. You have to prioritize aggressively and intelligently.
04:17	bitemyapp	and constantly rebalance.
04:18	akurilin	For sure.
04:27	akurilin	bitemyapp: thanks for the link to logstash, I'll have to check it out, seems interesting
04:27	akurilin	More tools need mascots, seriously.
04:28	bitemyapp	akurilin: I agree!
04:28	bitemyapp	akurilin: logstash + kibana is a nice shake-n-bake setup.
05:21	deg	I'm trying the leiningen 2.3.4 and ":pedantic? :abort", but not sure what it's trying to tell me: "Possibly confusing dependencies found: [lein-marginalia "0.7.1"] overrides [lein-marginalia "0.7.1"]", followed by a NPE.
05:55	peterdon	,(list "hello bot")
05:55	clojurebot	("hello bot")
06:03	dsrx	,'("hello bot")
06:03	clojurebot	("hello bot")
06:05	hyPiRion	deg: could you post that as an issue to the leiningen issue list?
06:05	hyPiRion	sounds like a bug
06:07	deg	hyPiRion. Ok. But, first I'm still trying to pin down exactly what's wrong. I've got a bunch of interlinked projects and everything seems to have broken. And, it's been a few weeks since I last touched this. So, in short, not really clear what's going wrong and which parts are my fault.
06:08	deg	When I touch almost anything I get an obscure error compiling my ns forms: "Exception in thread "main" java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError" with an irrelevant stack trace.
06:09	hyPiRion	deg: first off, perform a `lein clean` and delete your ~/.m2 directory
06:09	hyPiRion	that could resolve issues
06:09	deg	I've already tried the lein clean. Have not tried flushing ~/.m2; will do so now. What typically goes wrong there?
06:10	hyPiRion	deg: Invalid cache entries. If you have some jar which is broken, that could break stuff hard.
06:11	hyPiRion	I guess that's not the issue here, but better to be safe than sorry
06:11	deg	ok. Deleted .m2 and watching everything reload now.
06:14	deg	Nope, same problem.
06:15	hyPiRion	ahh, dangit
06:16	hyPiRion	if you could try to make a minimal reproduction case and post it to the issue list, that would be aweseom
06:16	deg	ns seems to lose if it includes any dependency outside the project itself.
06:17	deg	I need to untangle some of my spaghetti, before I'm comfortable posting a bug. Right now, the odds are still that it is some typo on my part. I can't yet blame any of the tools for anything worse than poor error messages.
06:17	deg	I'll report back when/if I have anything useful. Meanwhile, my wife is calling me for lunch. :-)
06:24	allenj12	hey i was going throught the joy of clojure book doing the excersices and was wondering what the "f" in this code was doing. i commented the line i was confused https://www.refheap.com/22186
06:27	nones	allenj12: there are stay apostrophe, it mean, that forms in vector not evaluated. So, f is symbol
06:28	nones	,(into '[f] [])
06:28	clojurebot	[f]
06:28	nones	(type (first (into '[f] [])))
06:28	nones	,(type (first (into '[f] [])))
06:28	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Symbol
06:31	allenj12	hmm ok i get that, i guess im just confused why you would want a symbol f
06:50	nones	Is there ways to expand vector to function args (apply not suitable, it doesnt work in macros)
07:00	sm0ke	what is default size for 1 in clojure
07:00	sm0ke	i mean like ##(sizeof 1) ; in bytes
07:00	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: sizeof in this context
07:01	nones	,(type 1)
07:01	clojurebot	java.lang.Long
07:01	sm0ke	thanks
07:01	sm0ke	hmm well
07:01	sm0ke	what if dont know the size of Long
07:02	sm0ke	if i*
07:02	nones	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/java/nutsandbolts/datatypes.html
07:02	nones	long is 64-bit
07:04	sm0ke	nones: isnt that what unqote splice is for
07:04	sm0ke	nones: ~@
07:06	logic_prog	does clojure run on dalvik (the android jvm) ?
07:06	logic_prog	if so, is dalvik much lightweight compared to oracle jvm?
07:07	sm0ke	logic_prog: yes clojure runs on android jvm
07:11	dotemacs	i think theres even a chat room just for clojure on android here on freenode
07:11	silasdavis	I've got a handler module set up with a lein ring init and handler function
07:12	silasdavis	but also with gen-class and -main for a http-kit server
07:12	silasdavis	when I 'lein uberjar' I get a jar that runs the -main class and therefore http-kit
07:12	silasdavis	when I 'lein ring server' I run the ring version
07:13	silasdavis	I was hoping 'lein ring uberjar' would give me a jetty adapter with ring
07:13	silasdavis	but it seems to run the same code path as 'lein uberjar'
07:13	silasdavis	is that to be expected?
07:18	sm0ke	silasdavis: does it makes sense to have seperate profile with :main definition for httpkit?
07:20	silasdavis	sm0ke, yeah perhaps so
07:20	silasdavis	perhaps the uberjar profile (where I have my main and aot options defined) gets applied after lein-ring sets up it's own main....
07:21	silasdavis	I probably shouldn't have http-kit stuff in same module really, since it's not a handler
07:24	corecode	hi
07:24	corecode	where can i read about how to implement IFn/AFn for an object?
07:26	logic_prog	is there any project on faking erlang with core.async ?
07:27	sm0ke	logic_prog: lol
07:27	logic_prog	sm0ke?
07:27	logic_prog	core.async threads should be as cheap as erlang threads right?
07:27	sm0ke	they are
07:28	logic_prog	so why hasn't someone smarter than me done it? :-)
07:28	sm0ke	wht do you want to imitate from erlang/
07:28	logic_prog	lots of little threads
07:28	logic_prog	and error handling
07:29	logic_prog	like when a thread goes into an error, instead of fixing it, it just dies and tells another thread what happened
07:30	sm0ke	hmm ok
07:30	sm0ke	yuck
07:31	corecode	is there a way to collect & rest function arguments as map?
07:49	deg	hyPiRion: I've isolated the :pedantic error in a working project of mine, and reported it as a leiningen issue. It was actually a duplicate of https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/1376, so I just added a comment there. (Now, on to the issues breaking the compile of my other projects).
07:54	hyPiRion	deg: ah, awesome. Thanks
08:12	cYmen	Why is it that when I "use" a namespace I don't get the dependencies?
08:12	cYmen	So basically if I use a module and then try to run a function therein line by line it doesn't work.
08:21	deadghost	cYmen, what?
08:22	deadghost	just in case there's confusion "use" doesn't download the dependency for you
08:23	deadghost	is there a main clojure book to learn from?
08:24	deadghost	I've been piggybacking off what I know from CL
08:24	hyPiRion	cYmen: Consider (use 'clojure.core.logic), which version of clojure.core.logic should it download, and from where?
08:24	hyPiRion	deadghost: http://www.clojurebook.com/
08:25	deadghost	first line is a hoot
08:25	deadghost	"We've worked with Clojure for many years now"
08:25	deadghost	that's like saying we've been here since the beginning
08:26	cYmen	I don't want it do download deps, I want it to recursively use stuff.
08:27	cYmen	When I load a module in the repl I want the code as written in that module to work in the repl.
08:28	deadghost	oh I see
08:28	cYmen	Manual debugging, run it line by line...
08:28	deadghost	you want the dependencies of that namespace
08:29	deadghost	if that's what you're asking idk and I would like to know
08:37	cYmen	looks like switching to the namespace using (ns ..) does what I wanted
08:42	deadghost	oh geez
08:42	deadghost	looking at clojurebook's table of contents
08:42	deadghost	it looks very thorough and get shit done oriented
08:45	cYmen	clojurebook?
08:45	clojurebot	clojurebook is http://clojurebook.com
08:46	cYmen	Ah, don't have that yet.
08:46	deadghost	if it was my intro to lisp
08:46	deadghost	I think I'd cry
08:46	cYmen	Clojure the language is pretty pleasant, the tools I still don't really like.
08:47	deadghost	I've enjoyed tooling so far
08:47	deadghost	took me a while to figure out CL's asdf and quicklisp
08:47	cYmen	And quicklisp already made everything so
08:47	cYmen	much easier.
08:48	deadghost	experience with lein has been superior
08:48	cYmen	Now I am getting a nullpointer exception in some third party library, I can't call it from the repl because something in that function requires ring state or whatever...it drives me crazy
08:49	deadghost	I need to brush up on my lisp though
08:49	deadghost	since I never understood macros enough to practically use them
08:49	deadghost	and right now I have something that only a macro can do
08:50	cYmen	Macros are hard to read and write but simple conceptually...it's just code generation
08:52	deadghost	but otherwise, getting into clojure has been surprisingly easy
08:52	cYmen	I thought the same but then I wanted to do something specific and since then I feel like I am drowning in frameworks and dsls.
08:53	deadghost	the first thing I wrote was a scraper
08:53	deadghost	now I'm writing a site for it using compojure + enlive
08:54	deadghost	korma was kind of ehhh but I don't think I like ORMs in general
08:55	deadghost	cYmen, what are you working on
08:55	cYmen	I'm just trying to make a simple webapp.
08:55	deadghost	what are you using?
08:55	cYmen	Right now trying to figure out how to get something from a database.
08:56	cYmen	Currently I'm not even working on it I just bought web development with clojure and I'm trying to work through the examples.
08:56	cYmen	And apparently sql/with-query-results is not in the current jdbc anymore...
08:56	deadghost	cYmen, what does it suggest using for db stuff?
08:57	deadghost	not sure if I want to use jdbc or korma
08:57	deadghost	right now I'm kind of just throwing my arms in the air and using raw queries in korma
08:58	cYmen	Totally valid....
08:58	cYmen	I think that is something I miss about clojure. An easy but wrong way to do things until you want to do them right.
08:59	Uatec__	cYmen, the thing is, people do it the easy but wrong way, and then leave it
08:59	Uatec__	5 years down the line, the code is being reviewed and it's just totally uterlly awfully wrong
08:59	deadghost	I'm finding it very hard to shove out working spaghetti code in clojure
08:59	cYmen	Uatec__: With clojure it's more like "people try to do it the easy way then leave clojure"? :)
08:59	deadghost	I still end up having to write very small functions
08:59	Uatec__	good
08:59	deadghost	and mapping over/composing
08:59	cYmen	hehe
09:00	Uatec__	let me get this... you WANT to write spaghetti code?
09:01	Uatec__	cYmen, that's a valid concern, but if you give people a half way house, people will inhabit that and never do things properly
09:01	Uatec__	you should give people all or nothing options... but make the All option useful enough to them
09:02	cYmen	You're never going to change people. If you give them all or nothing they will just go find somebody who gives them whatever they want. :)
09:03	cYmen	But that's philosophy, let's stick to programming. Nobody forces me to use clojure after all and if I didn't like it I wouldn.
09:03	deadghost	hmm well if I'm the only one working on something
09:03	deadghost	and it's a personal project
09:03	deadghost	sometimes I just want to shove out something working
09:03	deadghost	and fix it later
09:03	deadghost	and that does not seem to fly in clojure
09:04	cYmen	deadghost: I'm glad I already knew functional programming.
09:04	deadghost	I'm amazed how little I miss iteration
09:05	deadghost	400 lines of code and I didn't even consider it
09:07	cYmen	Well, it's not like there is no iteration, it's just slightly different. :)
09:37	grandy_	hello just typed one of the examples from clojuredocs into my repl and the output is not what the doc appears to say it will be... (def foo (map println [1 2 3]))
09:37	grandy_	(foo) raises an exception
09:37	grandy_	would anyone mind explaining this to me
09:39	grandy_	is this b/c i'm using the repl? still not sure why it would raise "lazyseq can't be cast to clojure.lang.IFn")
09:40	cYmen	grandy_: (map println [1 2 3]) is immediately evaluated
09:41	cYmen	so what you want is not (foo) which would call a function but instead foo which will display the value of that thingy
09:41	grandy_	cYmen: ahhhh
09:41	grandy_	cYmen: ok, makes sense
09:41	cYmen	grandy_: Maybe you wanted defn instead of def?
09:42	cYmen	In that case you will also need an empty parameter list
09:42	grandy_	cYmen: i was just following the example in this: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/doall
09:42	cYmen	(defn foo [] (map println [1 2 3]))
09:42	cYmen	now (foo) should work
09:43	grandy_	cYmen: i appear to have misunderstood the point of the example... thanks for making it click
09:43	cYmen	grandy_: Well, they never call (foo) in that example. ;)
09:43	grandy_	cYmen: yeah... doh
09:43	cYmen	The point of the example is that when you map println over a list nothing actually happens
09:43	cYmen	only when you try to access the result or in this case use "doall" will it actually run and print something
09:43	deadghost	map's lazy eval caught me a while back
09:44	grandy_	i'm doing some very basic stuff w/ csv files and taking the opportunity to use clojure but obviously haven't done much w/ clojure yet so i'm still a bit clueless
09:45	cYmen	grandy_: Well, lazy evaluation with side effects is a bit tricky. They don't play well together.
09:46	deadghost	in my case I ended up wrapping maps with side effects in dorun
09:46	grandy_	cYmen: ahh
09:46	cYmen	If you (def foo (map println [1 2 3])) nothing will be printed. If you try to print foo now using "foo" it will actually call the println AND show the result. In my case that gives a garbage output mixing both.
09:46	hyPiRion	deadghost: another option may be to use `doseq`.
09:47	cYmen	grandy_: https://www.refheap.com/ea456899f5afced5b10a7ae7e
09:48	grandy_	cYmen: same output here
09:48	cYmen	The first ( is from the contents of foo (which is a list of three nils) then 1 2 3 is the result of the println calls and then comes the rest of that list of nils which should actually be (nil nil nil)
09:49	cYmen	grandy_: Do you know the principle of lazy evaluation?
09:49	grandy_	cYmen: i think so
09:49	cYmen	kk
09:51	grandy_	cYmen: i think my understanding isn't all that real yet, bc i don't fully understand why foo returns that
09:51	cYmen	foo doesn't return anything foo is just a variable :)
09:51	cYmen	(def foo 3) <- variable!
09:52	cYmen	(def foo (....)) <- still a variable! :)
09:52	cYmen	(defn foo [] (...)) <- now it's a function
09:52	grandy_	cYmen: ahh right...
09:52	grandy_	cYmen: why does foo print [1,2,3] at all?
09:52	hyPiRion	foo is a variable regardless
09:53	cYmen	hyPiRion: Well, it is a variable storing a function but let's keep it simple. :)
09:54	cYmen	grandy_: Well, lazy evaluation in the most simple words means "When you call a function, I don't actually run it (because I'm lazy) I only run it when you try to access the return value of that function.
09:55	deadghost	grandy_, try this
09:55	deadghost	do def foo
09:55	deadghost	and foo
09:55	deadghost	then foo again
09:56	cYmen	grandy_: So when you (def foo (map println [1 2 3])) you get a magic thingy back (usually called a thunk) which is sort of a promise that you can actually get it if you want to
09:56	grandy_	ahhh
09:56	cYmen	Now if you type "foo" in the repl and the result needs to be printed you're cashing in that promise and the code has to execute now...
09:57	deadghost	cYmen, where did you learn lazy eval from?
09:57	grandy_	cYmen: ahh ok makes sense
09:58	cYmen	deadghost: haskell in my first cs course at the university...
09:58	deadghost	I was thinking of picking up some haskell when I encountered laziness
09:58	deadghost	but now it seems unnecessary
09:58	grandy_	thanks guys for the help
09:58	deadghost	uhhh
09:58	cYmen	you're welcome :)
09:59	deadghost	is haskell actually a good choice for a first cs course?
09:59	wei__	is there a more succinct way of saying (map #(vector %1 %2) [:a :b :c] [1 2 3]) ?
10:00	wei__	,(map #(vector %1 %2) [:a :b :c] [1 2 3])
10:00	clojurebot	([:a 1] [:b 2] [:c 3])
10:00	hyPiRion	(map vector ...)
10:00	cYmen	deadghost: It wasn't particularly hard and it didn't give any advantages because almost nobody knows haskell. It also introduces all kinds of things that are useful to know and shape your thinking so I'm going to go with: yes. :)
10:00	deadghost	,(map vector [:a :b :c] [1 2 3])
10:00	clojurebot	([:a 1] [:b 2] [:c 3])
10:01	wei__	cool. i was thinking of something like zip, or interleave? but with a result as a vector instead of a map
10:01	deadghost	cYmen, well that's surprisingly
10:02	deadghost	then again SICP looks overly difficult for a first book to me
10:02	cYmen	I don't know it may be a personal thing. :)
10:03	cYmen	I think functional programming is a lot simpler conceptually and easier to explain than normal computing. It's just the knowledge about other programming languages that confuses some people.
10:04	cYmen	When I first tried to explain python to my girlfriend she stared at a=3 a=5 and asked me "how can a be two different things?" she only knew variables from maths classes where things don't usually change value
10:04	cYmen	tada functional programming :)
10:05	lllambda	hi, i have a map of maps over which i would like to pass a function (returning a new map of maps), e.g. {:foo {:bar 1 :baz 4 :qux 2}}. in this case i actually want to do two things: sum the ints and then divide the ints by that total, assigning the result as the new value of those submaps
10:05	brackets	cYmen: haha
10:05	lllambda	i have a nested reduce solution that's pretty nasty, but seems to work. is there a more idiomatic way?
10:06	nones	lllambda: can you give input and output example?
10:07	deadghost	not sure where I'd be if my intro to programming was functional
10:07	deadghost	I pretty much just fumbled around until things made sense
10:07	deadghost	php -> c -> lisp basically
10:07	deadghost	I think the k&r really helped
10:08	brackets	The Elements of Computing thrown in for good measure helps.
10:08	deadghost	I have never heard of that book before
10:08	lllambda	nones: say we use that map of maps, the output would be something like: {:foo {:bar 1/7 :baz 4/7 :qux 2/7}}
10:08	deadghost	is that babby's first prog book?
10:09	deadghost	because there's a babby on the cover
10:09	lllambda	assume there's more top-level keys besides :foo too
10:09	deadghost	>building a modern computer
10:09	brackets	well if by baby you mean go from chip to cpu to asm compiler to stack math to language design :)
10:09	deadghost	"the best way to understand how computers work is to build one from scratch"
10:10	deadghost	oh geez what is this
10:10	brackets	its a survey of how it all works close to the metal
10:10	hyPiRion	lllambda: https://www.refheap.com/22189
10:10	deadghost	I'll put it on my reading lisp but low level stuff has never appealed to me
10:11	deadghost	*list
10:11	lllambda	hyPiRion: that doesn't seem to be loading for me
10:11	brackets	its quite short. 200 pages maybe? and you won't be disappointed.
10:12	deadghost	see
10:12	deadghost	k&r was also "quite short"
10:12	cYmen	brackets: oh thats nand2tetris...
10:12	hyPiRion	lllambda: arg, sec
10:12	deadghost	now I don't associate number of pages with shortness
10:13	lllambda	hyPiRion: oop, it just loaded up. guess i wasn't patient enough :)
10:13	lllambda	hyPiRion: this looks cleaner, thank you!
10:13	brackets	deadghost: its well written, readable, and interesting.. nothing like K & R :)
10:13	lllambda	i didn't know about map-vals
10:13	lllambda	(or had forgotten)
10:14	corecode	what is well written?
10:14	brackets	corecode: http://www.nand2tetris.org/
10:14	lllambda	er i see, you defined it. need some coffee to wake up
10:14	hyPiRion	lllambda: Yeah, it's not in Clojure core, although it's frequently used
10:14	hyPiRion	https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/master/src/flatland/useful/map.clj has loads of others
10:17	deg	Are there known issues of project compilations failing because of conflicts between different recursive dependencies on recent version of clojurescript?
10:17	lllambda	hyPiRion: here's what i was doing previously --> https://gist.github.com/maxcountryman/8ee60dbd251730cd1076
10:18	lllambda	great link, starred. thank you
10:19	hyPiRion	lllambda: yeah, that works as well. It really boils down to which one you consider more readable
10:19	cYmen	deg: I think so: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/light-table-discussion/Jy03Ka73-Qk/lSS5uSjJeB0J
10:19	lllambda	i don't think what i wrote is easily readable, even by me :)
10:22	deg	cYmen: Thanks. I didn't I hit exactly the same issue, but close enough. I can fix it by rolling my project back to a slightly earlier CLJS. Testing now to see if I can, instead, exclude the earlier one from the library deps.
10:23	deg	I WISH clojure could do a better job of error reporting. There was nothing in the error or stack trace to suggest that this was the problem; I had to do many minutes of annoying debugging.
10:23	silasdavis	I am trying to run lein ring uberjar
10:23	silasdavis	when it creates the jar
10:24	silasdavis	and I try and run it with java -jar *-standalone.jar, it complains that it cannot find myproject.handler.main
10:24	silasdavis	my ring profile is: :ring {:init redditch.handler/ring-init
10:24	silasdavis	:handler redditch.handler/app}
10:24	silasdavis	(redditch is project name)
10:25	silasdavis	I used to have a main in redditch.handler, but I've since remove this
10:25	silasdavis	deleted target and lein clean'd
10:25	silasdavis	*ring settings I should say not profile
10:29	jcromartie	silasdavis: it says "myproject.handler.main"?
10:30	jcromartie	where is "myproject" coming frmo?
10:30	silasdavis	sorry, I should have used redditch from the start
10:32	jcromartie	do you have a :main key in your project?
10:33	jarodzz	hello, guys
10:35	silasdavis	jcromartie, only in a profile 'httpkit'
10:35	silasdavis	and that points at redditch.server
10:38	jcromartie	hm, that's strange
10:39	gdev	hey jarodzz
10:39	jcromartie	and it's complaining about a missing redditch.handler.main, not redditch.handler/main
10:39	jarodzz	hi, gdev
10:39	jarodzz	i want to generate a java object from a java hashmap
10:39	jarodzz	with clojure
10:40	jarodzz	like i have a map {"name":"john", “age":18}
10:40	jarodzz	i want to generate an object with name and age fields, with value john and 18
10:41	jarodzz	any one got a clue?
10:41	silasdavis	jcromartie, Error: Could not find or load main class redditch.handler.main
10:42	gdev	jarodzz, yeah you'd just need to destructure your map when you're calling the constructor of the java object
10:43	jarodzz	gdev, thanks, man
10:43	jarodzz	i'll give a try
10:43	jarodzz	now. catch u later
10:44	gdev	(let [my-map {:name "john" :age 18}] (Person. (:name my-map) (:age my-map)))
10:45	gdev	jarodzz, ^ that's not pretty but should get you pointed in the right direction
10:46	silasdavis	jcromartie, on a different box I get Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: redditch/handler/main
10:46	jarodzz	gdev, many thanks man .
10:46	jarodzz	as long as it works
10:46	jarodzz	:)
10:46	silasdavis	I have no main specified anywhere in project.clj
10:48	silasdavis	this is really odd
10:49	silasdavis	removing all my aot stuff yields
10:49	silasdavis	Warning: specified :main without including it in :aot.
10:49	silasdavis	Implicit AOT of :main will be removed in Leiningen 3.0.0.
10:49	silasdavis	If you only need AOT for your uberjar, consider adding :aot :all into your
10:49	silasdavis	:uberjar profile instead.
10:49	silasdavis	but I don't think I'm specifying main anywhere
10:49	silasdavis	is there any file where this could be happening?
10:49	silasdavis	other than project.clj
10:49	ior3k	possibly stupid question: how do you guys endure through papers that, superficially at least, seem extremely boring, like "out of the tar pit"? I feel this tendency of mine for tl;dr is seriously hampering my ability to grow as a programmer
10:50	jcromartie	silasdavis: honestly I've avoided lein-ring and just used my own hand-rolled :main for a while now
10:51	gdev	ior3k, everyone learns differently, maybe reading dry papers isn't your learning style
10:52	gdev	ior3k, lucky for you there are some good talks on YouTube that kind of summarize what "out of the tar pit" was getting at
10:53	jcromartie	summary: only store inputs, keep everything in sets
10:53	jcromartie	done!
10:53	ior3k	gdev: I find many youtube talks help. But I wonder how far I can go with that
10:55	gdev	ior3k, the only constraints is that you're limited to the papers that have been summarized in a talk that has been posted online
10:56	ior3k	gdev: I feel that will keep me away from a lot of juicy stuff though
10:58	gdev	ior3k, as far as your specific problem I tend to skim long papers a few times for something that catches my eye and eventually I'll be familiar with it enough to labor over the parts I know contain the meat
10:59	ior3k	gdev: I'll try that, thanks
11:02	gdev	ior3k, sorry that I'm the only one commenting on this, I'm sure there are better ways, but that's how I defeat my ADHD long enough to grok the classics
11:02	ior3k	gdev: I appreciate your help :)
11:02	ddima	gdev: I think thats a good approach
11:03	ddima	skimming a couple of times certainly helps getting acquainted with the subject
11:04	ddima	ior3k: but in the end you'll have to find out what works best for you. for example, sleeping things over can not be underestimated ;)
11:05	jcromartie	how can I run a Clojure app forever that doesn't block the main thread?
11:05	ior3k	ddima: true that, I still wish papers were written in the head first style, though :)
11:05	gdev	ior3k, yes hammock driven development also works here as well
11:06	jcromartie	i.e. how to run Jetty with {:join? false} from my -main
11:10	gdev	jcromartie, are you looking to do something like (defn -main [port] (run-jetty app {:port port :join? false}))
11:13	jcromartie	gdev: sure I know how to do that, but I guess what I'm asking is how to join it after creating the server
11:14	jcromartie	I've got a main namespace that has an atom containing the state of the "moving parts" of the system: the server, DB, etc
11:14	jcromartie	but I want to be able to start it in either an interactive REPL or as a -main
11:14	jcromartie	maybe I'm wrong?
11:14	jcromartie	I'm just assuming… hah
11:17	jcromartie	I guess Jetty marks its thread as a daemon thread
11:17	jcromartie	well look at that
11:17	jcromartie	no need to join
11:18	jcromartie	Java doesn't exit
11:28	gdev	jcromartie, when you figure it out, post a link to it if its open source because I'm interested to see what you are trying to do
11:30	dotemacs	Hi, I needed to do some PDF related work, form filling and document concatenation, so I put this together: https://github.com/dotemacs/pdfboxing
11:36	jcromartie	gdev: I did figure it out :) I was just wrong in my assumption
11:37	jcromartie	I thought I had to join the thread to keep the JVM from exiting. But if you start Jetty from -main with {:join? false} it will not exit, even though the -main function exits
11:37	jcromartie	I don't know why I was mixed up
11:38	justin_smith	jcromartie: what I do is start an nrepl from inside the function that generates my ring handler
11:38	justin_smith	jcromartie: then I get the server running, plus the ability to connect to the repl and fuck around
11:39	gdev	dotemacs, that looks interesting, always good to see a java library wrapped in parens
11:39	dotemacs	gdev: thanks :) not sure if those are words of praise or jest :)
11:40	gdev	dotemacs, words of praise =D
11:40	dotemacs	;)
11:45	jcromartie	justin_smith: I like that idea. I'm using Cider.
11:45	jcromartie	So I don't really need to start another NREPL
11:45	jcromartie	nREPL whatever
11:46	justin_smith	jcromartie: cidre can connect to an external repl
11:46	justin_smith	and a repl is more useful if it is inside your servewr
11:46	justin_smith	*server
11:46	jcromartie	yes it is
11:47	jcromartie	I'm interested in the prospect, however I feel like the client/sysadmins would hate it
11:47	jcromartie	they take security seriously
11:47	jcromartie	even if it's exposed over SSH
11:47	justin_smith	I use the environment to decide whether it launches
11:47	justin_smith	very simple
11:47	jcromartie	yeah
11:47	justin_smith	(if (not= environment "production) (nrepl/server-start port))
11:48	dotemacs	story no.1 on HN right now is 'Why use Clojure?' https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6959405
11:49	Raynes	Ho ho ho.
11:50	Raynes	dotemacs: Only good response to that question is "Because other lisps have too many parens :("
11:50	Raynes	Clearly.
11:50	dotemacs	haha
11:52	jcromartie	congrats dotemacs
11:53	jcromartie	we've actually gone pretty whole-hog on Clojure for every new project at work now
11:53	jcromartie	like, 8 people using it?
11:53	jcromartie	yeah
11:53	dotemacs	jcromartie: on what ? :) the pdf library or ...?
11:54	jcromartie	pdf library?
11:54	dotemacs	jcromartie: I posted this earlier: https://github.com/dotemacs/pdfboxing
11:54	justin_smith	jcromartie: did you think that article on hn was by dotemacs ?
11:54	gdev	wow, there's already a video from the 2013 conj posted on clojure's youtube channel.
11:54	technomancy	bbloom: my five-year-old runs in, "Daddy, I'm so excited today" / "Oh, because of Christmas?" / "No, because I almost finished code.org!"
11:54	dotemacs	justin_smith: it looks like he did
11:55	dotemacs	jcromartie: i just shared the HN link here, thats all :)
11:55	deadghost	makes me think of those HN articles
11:55	jcromartie	dotemacs: shouldn't you compare a plain Java fib method to a Clojure fib fn, rather than a whole Java program to a Clojure fn/
11:55	deadghost	"How I taught my 5 year old to code."
11:55	deadghost	and right below it
11:55	jcromartie	oh yeah what
11:55	gdev	technomancy, that's awesome
11:55	jcromartie	sorry dotemacs
11:55	jcromartie	I see
11:55	deadghost	"Why 5 year olds should be playing and having a life instead of coding"
11:58	justin_smith	whoever wrote that fucking "why use clojure" article is a false flag clojure hater trying to scare people away from the language
11:59	jcromartie	I doubt it. He might just suck at thinking/writing.
11:59	justin_smith	the examples aren't even valid code, the project.clj is needlessly complex
11:59	justin_smith	jcromartie: an idiot that agrees with you is worse than a smart enemy
12:00	deadghost	you'd be amazed how crazy/dumb people can be
12:00	justin_smith	fair enough
12:00	justin_smith	still a bad article, regardless
12:01	deadghost	I saw an article on "jquery doesn't have a for loop... but js does!"
12:01	deadghost	and people thanking the author in the comments
12:01	deadghost	for teaching them jquery is written in js
12:01	deadghost	and why jquery doesn't have a jquery specific for loop
12:02	jcromartie	I've heard it way too many times… "I know jQuery, but not JavaScript"
12:03	dotemacs	justin_smith: nice quote re: 'idiot...'
12:03	justin_smith	hey, I know clojure but not java, same diff right?
12:03	justin_smith	dotemacs: bad paraphrase of the best teacher I ever had
12:04	justin_smith	at least you can learn something from a smart enemy.
12:05	jcromartie	justin_smith: I wouldn't say so… Clojure : Java :: jQuery : JavaScript is not true
12:05	justin_smith	it was a tenuous reach, clojure is a java library after all
12:05	jcromartie	ok
12:05	jcromartie	yeah
12:05	jcromartie	but jQuery doesn't add new syntax to JavaScript :)
12:05	justin_smith	I was being glib though
12:05	justin_smith	yeah
12:06	justin_smith	and I actually know enough java to know how to use the jvm, I just haven't directly written java is all
12:07	jcromartie	jQuery is a domain specific language for making an intractable mess
12:08	jcromartie	the other day a Puppet Labs guy told me "the Puppet language is a DSL on top of Ruby" at which point I had to say "hold on a sec..."
12:08	jcromartie	it's not
12:08	jcromartie	at all
12:11	justin_smith	Every program is a DSL. Some of them are even useful for using programattically.
12:13	dotemacs	jcromartie: sorry, what point are you making regarding puppet ?
12:14	justin_smith	he is saying it is not a DSL
12:15	dotemacs	justin_smith: i get that part, but i don't understand what he backs it up with, hence the question
12:15	dotemacs	justin_smith: i fully agree with you about every program being a DSL
12:16	gdev	link in HN post was blocked as a security risk by websense. comments section was TL;DR, doubt I missed anything more than flaming troll bait or trolling flame bait
12:17	justin_smith	the latter, or geniune stupidity, one of those
12:18	justin_smith	"here is some code that isn't even valid, see how good the language is?" "here is a rediculously overcomplex build configuration file, isn't that cool?"
12:18	jcromartie	dotemacs: no, I'm saying that .pp files are not "a DSL on top of Ruby" which is what the Puppet Labs guy said… it was in-person, we had a bit of back and forth over what that phrase means
12:19	jcromartie	dotemacs: if Ruby expressions are not valid, it is not "a DSL on top of Ruby"
12:19	jcromartie	dotemacs: in new versions they do allow you to use .rb for modules
12:20	jcromartie	"DSL on top of X" means a superset of X, i.e. just new functions or syntax added
12:20	gdev	justin_smith, oh yeah that does sound like an enlightening PLT discussion
12:20	jcromartie	within the constraints and capabilities of X
12:23	dotemacs	jcromartie: well, we're nitpicking here but a DSL is a language designed for a specific domain, rather than a 'superset' as you call it
12:24	dotemacs	jcromartie: im going by wikipedia definition here
12:26	justin_smith	dotemacs: the operative thing here is the word "on"
12:26	justin_smith	"on" implies superset
12:26	jcromartie	yes
12:26	jcromartie	examples: Rake
12:26	justin_smith	"in" impliest subset
12:27	dotemacs	justin_smith: right, when you put it like that, then I have to agree
12:48	deadghost	hmmm ehhhh
12:48	deadghost	I basically have the same question as this guy: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11911010/binding-a-local-var-in-deftemplate-for-enlive
12:48	bbloom	technomancy: awesome!
12:48	deadghost	I'm querying from a db and want it in a local var
12:49	deadghost	so I can slowly suck out it's delicious data
12:49	deadghost	mucking with the lib seems kind of crappy
12:50	zerokarmaleft	bbloom: I've contributed 3 girls to code.org's demographic data, I plan to add a 4th this weekend
12:52	bbloom	zerokarmaleft: killer. glad you're liking
12:53	justin_smith	deadghost: classic problem to compose a macro with new functionality, you must also make a macro
12:53	justin_smith	the macro rule of contagion
12:53	bbloom	zerokarmaleft: add the word "it" to that sentence :-P
12:54	zerokarmaleft	bbloom: it's certainly more effective when I sit with them, but they're having a blast
12:56	deadghost	well, I guess I can't put off learning macros then
12:56	bbloom	zerokarmaleft: yeah, it's not quite zero teacher yet, but the videos are quite useful and the the game-like nature of it doubles as a baby sitter. in my experience, you can watch/help quite a few kids at once, which isn't remotely the case with scratch
12:57	zerokarmaleft	and it's fascinating to watch each of them build up different solutions, their thinking patterns are wildly different even at the same age
12:57	justin_smith	deadghost: also enlive can return edn, and it is viable to instead alter the edn it returns before rendering
12:57	deadghost	edn?
12:58	justin_smith	vanilla clojure datastructures
12:58	arrdem	deadghost: Extensible Data Notation.
12:58	justin_smith	maps, vectors, lists
12:58	justin_smith	strings, numbers, characters
12:58	arrdem	deadghost: a JSON equivalent subset of Clojure syntax.
12:58	deadghost	I see
12:58	gdev	deadghost, it could be worse, you could try to use a monad
12:58	arrdem	gdev: sssh the haskellers will hear you
13:00	technomancy	bbloom: have you looked at etoys at all?
13:00	technomancy	looks like a somewhat more sophisticated Scratch
13:00	gdev	arrdem, i doubt they can hear me over the sound of their own smugness, lol just kidding, I love them all, especially bitemyapp
13:15	varnie	hello. I have found a typo on the official Clojure website.
13:16	varnie	here: http://clojure.org/getting_started ("Himera provides a browser-baed ClojureScript REPL"). "baed" <-- this one
13:16	arrdem	is it me or did everyone miss the point of the article over here.. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6958983
13:16	arrdem	varnie: awesome. lemme figure out where the issue needs to go.
13:19	arrdem	hum...
13:20	arrdem	technomancy: is it appropriate to ping dev.clj.org with the above? I'm not seeing a seperate channel for website typos.
13:48	popinman322	I'm getting "Unable to resolve var" when I attempt to resolve a let variable
13:48	popinman322	How would I get around that?
13:50	jcromartie	popinman322: code?
13:50	jcromartie	that should not happen
13:50	jcromartie	I assume you are trying to use it outside of the let scope
13:50	gdev	popinman322, yeah it sounds like you're out of the let block then
13:52	popinman322	(let [beginning (fn [x] ...)] ((#'beginning) (fn [reader buffer] ...)))
13:53	popinman322	The second function in the list also references beginning
13:55	gdev	popinman322, paste the whole thing at https://www.refheap.com/ and include the stacktrace
13:58	gdev	please?
13:59	popinman322	gdev: On it
13:59	gdev	popinman322, thanks
14:01	popinman322	gdev: https://www.refheap.com/e8bc2884ef718c0fe41b06f5d
14:02	justin_smith	popinman322: why are you asking for the var behind a let bound value?
14:02	justin_smith	popinman322: #' means "give me the raw var, not the thing it points to"
14:03	justin_smith	in that context, beginning is not a var, it is a let binding
14:03	popinman322	justin_smith: Just started using Clojure, please inform me @_@
14:03	justin_smith	beginning is not a var
14:03	justin_smith	in that context it is a value bound by let
14:03	justin_smith	so there is no var to dereference
14:04	popinman322	And it can't escape the let binding?
14:04	justin_smith	escape it to what?
14:04	justin_smith	it is a name for a value
14:04	justin_smith	'beginning gives you the raw symbol
14:04	justin_smith	beginning gives you the value
14:04	justin_smith	what else could you access?
14:04	popinman322	I want the function that is beginning to be in the list returned by let
14:05	justin_smith	functions are values
14:05	justin_smith	you don't need a special quotation syntax for them
14:05	justin_smith	,=
14:05	clojurebot	#<core$_EQ_ clojure.core$_EQ_@1715346>
14:05	popinman322	'(beginning)
14:05	popinman322	?
14:05	justin_smith	oh, you want beginning inside a list?
14:06	popinman322	Indeed
14:06	justin_smith	then yeah, '(beginning) or [beginning]
14:06	justin_smith	if a vector is acceptable that is more readable
14:06	popinman322	Would the value persist outside of the let binding, though?
14:06	justin_smith	similar issue with every other usage of #' in your paste
14:06	justin_smith	when you don't quote the symbol, you are accessing the value not the symbol
14:06	popinman322	Alright
14:06	justin_smith	the value persists outside the let binding, if you pass it out
14:07	justin_smith	this is what closures are, btw
14:07	justin_smith	kinda the thing clojure is named after :)
14:08	justin_smith	so, do you understand that error message now?
14:08	justin_smith	,(doc var)
14:08	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
14:09	justin_smith	,(use clojure.repl)
14:09	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.repl, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
14:09	justin_smith	weird
14:10	justin_smith	anyway, it may help to look into what vars are, and how they are different from let bindings
14:10	gdev	,(use 'clojure.repl)
14:10	clojurebot	nil
14:10	justin_smith	wait, how is that different from what I did?
14:10	justin_smith	,(doc var)
14:10	clojurebot	Excuse me?
14:11	justin_smith	oh, ok, I forgot to quote the ns
14:15	gdev	lazybot, ,(doc var)
14:15	gdev	I forgot how to switch bots =/
14:16	justin_smith	#(doc var)
14:16	justin_smith	&(doc var)
14:16	lazybot	⇒ "Special: var; The symbol must resolve to a var, and the Var object\nitself (not its value) is returned. The reader macro #'x expands to (var x)."
14:16	justin_smith	FINALLY
14:16	justin_smith	a var is one of the mutible container types, like ref or atom, it is used to store values in namespaces
14:17	justin_smith	a let binding is just a symbol to value translation
14:18	popinman322	justin_smith: I see
14:18	popinman322	Thanks
14:22	jcromartie	grrr, trying to figure out how to get output from log4j to show up in nrepl
14:22	jcromartie	works fine with "lein run"
14:24	jcromartie	but on an nREPL connection (via cider) nothing is output
14:25	jcromartie	with the same log4j config
14:25	jcromartie	console appender...
14:26	gdev	jcromartie, so you are in emacs? if so, what does your nrepl-server buffer show
14:26	jcromartie	hm, there it is
14:27	jcromartie	I didn't know that was there
14:27	cemerick	I keep meaning to go figure out how to get that output to stream to the REPL interaction window.
14:27	jcromartie	in the past, I used bound-fn on my handlers
14:27	justin_smith	it is because out is a dynamic var, I am sure
14:27	jcromartie	but for some reason that doesn't work with clojure.tools.logging
14:29	jcromartie	i.e. the handler fn I passed to run-jetty was (bound-fn [req] (my-handler req))
14:29	jcromartie	that only works for println
14:29	cemerick	jcromartie: none of the logging stuffs touch out at all
14:29	jcromartie	I didn't think so
14:30	jcromartie	so, the nrepl-server buffer captures System/out System/err?
14:30	jcromartie	or what
14:30	cemerick	yeah, that's just a window to the tty of the process AFAIK
14:30	jcromartie	ok that's easy enough
14:32	jcromartie	I could rewire System/out ?
14:33	jcromartie	well anyway I have my log output, that's good enough
14:35	BAMbanda	why am I getting errors when I try to call my (pig-latin) function?
14:35	BAMbanda	http://paste.lisp.org/display/140661
14:35	justin_smith	what is the reasoning for not putting the output of the process in the nrepl buffer anyway?
14:36	BAMbanda	java.lang.IllegalStateException: Attempting to call unbound fn: #'brainfood.core/pig-latin
14:36	BAMbanda	Var.java:43 clojure.lang.Var$Unbound.throwArity
14:36	BAMbanda	AFn.java:39 clojure.lang.AFn.invoke
14:36	BAMbanda	/home/shai/clojure/brainfood/src/brainfood/core.clj:20 brainfood.core/eval4737
14:38	justin_smith	BAMbanda: I don't think this is the source of your problem, but in general it is better not to put side-effecting code (like the printlns) at the top level. Instead, move -main to the bottom of the file, and put the printlns in there
14:39	justin_smith	then lein run will run -main, or from a repl you can call it manually
14:41	BAMbanda	justin_smith, hmm ok
14:41	BAMbanda	thanks
14:42	justin_smith	BAMbanda: all that code works if I paste it into a repl
14:42	BAMbanda	justin_smith, yeah i see
14:42	justin_smith	so maybe the problem is just that the printlns are at the top level, and maybe putting them inside -main would be enough to fix your issue
14:43	justin_smith	though I thought definitions would be guaranteed to be carried out in top to bottom order in an ns
14:45	andyf	If anyone feels the urge over the holiday season to experiment with copying Scala's hash function implementations to Clojure for some comparative experiments versus Clojure's current hash functions, let me know.
14:45	andyf	Such work could end up in Clojure's implementation, if it compares favorably versus some other alternatives.
14:45	andyf	But no guarantees on that.
14:52	arrdem	andyf: did you see the hashing thread on the main clojure mail list?
14:53	arrdem	andyf: I think that the scala hashfn got some treatment there already.
14:54	andyf	arrdem: I was a participant in that thread, if it is the one I am thinking of. The reason I am asking is that I have heard second-hand that Rich would like to see a comparison of a proposed change to the hash function (from Mark Engelberg) against Scala's implementation, before deciding.
14:54	andyf	To my knowledge, no one has yet experimented with the Scala hash in Clojure yet.
14:54	arrdem	andyf: ok. I just remember seeing the thread and thought I'd bring it up.
14:55	arrdem	andyf: I may elect myself the victim for this just so that I learn how to build the core...
14:55	andyf	arrdem: And thanks. It was relevant :-)
14:55	andyf	arrdem: If you want help, I can give you tips. It is not hard.
14:57	sprocket	does anyone have any recommendations as to the best clojure book out there?
14:58	gfredericks	~book
14:58	clojurebot	book is books
14:58	andyf	arrdem: There is no need to follow the parts of the following wiki page that describe how to create patches until you are ready to do that, but the pulling a Clojure tree and building it steps are here, too: http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Developing+Patches
14:58	arrdem	sprocket: how much clojure have you written? what are you looking for?
14:59	sprocket	arrdem: just starting out with clojure, though i've been doing dev in other languages for 15+ years so i can handle more advanced topics
14:59	andyf	sprocket: I'd recommend Clojure Programming published by O'Reilly
15:00	sprocket	andyf: thank you - i'll check it out
15:00	arrdem	sprocket: so if you're looking to learn good clojure design and thinking, The Joy of Clojure is awesome.
15:00	sprocket	arrdem: great, thanks!
15:00	arrdem	sprocket: Clojure Programming is more basic stuff, but still a good tour of the language
15:01	justin_smith	I would say joy of clojure if you already have lisp fu
15:01	elfenlaid_	The Joy of Clojure is kind of advanced book, but a bit boring
15:02	justin_smith	so it depends what kind of languages those 15 years represent
15:03	sprocket	justin_smith: i've done a reasonable amount of common lisp over than time, so it should be alright
15:03	arrdem	sprocket: er no. that means yoi'
15:03	arrdem	*you'll have to unlearn mutable state lisp
15:03	arrdem	that had me on my head for a solid month :/
15:03	sprocket	hah, alright :)
15:04	arrdem	sprocket: that said, I think you'll be pleased with the relative sanity of our data literals and macros.
15:04	arrdem	sprocket: total step up from clisp and relatives.
15:06	justin_smith	well idiomatic common lisp uses conses as if they were immutible - mostly
15:07	justin_smith	or mine did at least
15:07	arrdem	in that case I have a bone to pick with some people....
15:07	justin_smith	arrdem: maybe I am overly generous
15:08	justin_smith	rplaca, rplacd etc. of course are there - but I rarely found myself needing them, personally
15:08	arrdem	justin_smith: the only largeish clisp codebase I've worked with made extensive use of in-place list mutation.
15:08	justin_smith	OK
15:08	arrdem	justin_smith: it was C in s expressions.
15:09	justin_smith	sorry to hear that, it must have sucked
15:09	arrdem	no it didn't, I threw it out and wrote clojure :D
15:12	gfredericks	combining the low-level performance of lisp with the ease-of-reasoning of C
15:12	arrdem	gfredericks: idk man... clisp can be pretty fast if you never hit the garbage collector...
15:13	edw_	http://doc.poseur.com/xmas-eve-macros
15:13	Bronsa	arrdem: wasn't SBCL the fast one out there?
15:14	arrdem	Bronsa: yes. SBCL is the most active and fastest clisp compiler.
15:14	Bronsa	oh, you were talking about clisp the language, not the implementation
15:15	arrdem	Bronsa: yeah I have the bad habit of using clisp to refer to all ANSI CL implementations.
15:16	justin_smith	I think the common lisp concept of cons-free-programming can be done in clojure
15:16	justin_smith	if you opt into mutible data structures but use them in a sane feed-forward way
15:16	justin_smith	I mean feed forward as in "don't touch it after you pass it to the next function in the DSP pipeline"
15:17	andyf	justin_smith: I think that kind of sanity can be achieved in just about any programming language. The trick is, whether you actually do so or not :-)
15:17	arrdem	justin_smith: sure, but then you've just reinvented transients for efficiency, it's still essentially functional code.
15:18	justin_smith	andyf: difference being immutibility is a sane default, and you opt into consless mutible things in tight loops
15:18	justin_smith	arrdem: correct
15:18	justin_smith	arrdem: not quite transients, I am thinking of DSP where your buffer size is fixed, so you don't even need resizable vectors, numeric arrays of primitives will be ideal
15:21	arrdem	edw_: cool.. but you don't need that atom...
15:23	arrdem	just feed forwards a [val, trace] pair...
15:24	gfredericks	edw_: oh man not the fn/fn* special case...
15:25	gfredericks	sometimes I wish ->/->> didn't even normalize non-lists
15:25	gfredericks	basically every time I try to explain what the threading macros do
15:26	arrdem	gfredericks: (-> big-map :foo :bar :baz) is a nice alternative to get-in thanks to that.
15:26	gfredericks	yeah those are the times when I don't mind
15:31	gfredericks	I feel like this -=> can be a two-liner and I'm thinking too hard about how to make it one
15:32	arrdem	gfredericks: mine is basically a wrapper around -> with a let to destructure a log out...
15:32	arrdem	gfredericks: but I'm stuck on the initial case :P
15:33	arrdem	I'd use meta, but then it wouldn't be legal to (-=> 3 inc inc)
15:33	gfredericks	oh it'd be nice if we could avoid packing and unpacking at each step
15:34	gfredericks	I didn't check if edw_'s code does that or not
15:34	arrdem	it does, by using a globaly scoped atom :/
15:34	gfredericks	oh right
15:34	arrdem	hence why we're rewriting it :P
15:41	gfredericks	okay let's call it a 10-liner
15:41	arrdem	haha I have 16 with two macros.. I think you're winning
15:43	gfredericks	12 lines
15:44	gfredericks	now let's see if it works
15:44	arrdem	I
15:44	arrdem	'm off by one layer of [] per form..
15:46	arrdem	https://refheap.com/22199
15:48	arrdem	crap I fail the test case.
15:48	gfredericks	oh forgot to quote the code is all
15:49	gfredericks	w00h I think I got it
15:49	gfredericks	I opted not to wrap fn/fn* of course
15:50	gfredericks	https://www.refheap.com/22200
15:50	gfredericks	arrdem: I think the order of your cases in --=> makes the second one unreachable
15:51	gfredericks	,((fn ([a b c & more] :first) ([a b c] :second)) :a :b :c)
15:51	clojurebot	:second
15:51	gfredericks	just kidding
15:51	gfredericks	,((fn ([a b c & more] :first) ([a b c] :second)) :a :b :c :d)
15:51	clojurebot	:first
15:51	arrdem	the anon inline fn kills mine... trying to figure out why.
15:52	gfredericks	arrdem: well it doesn't work for normal -> so either you special-case it like edw_ or you decide not to support that like me
15:52	arrdem	gfredericks: I think I can cheat with an extra let gensym.
15:53	gfredericks	O_O
15:54	arrdem	nope just kidding. that makes no sense in the general case.
15:54	arrdem	unsupport that crud..
15:54	gfredericks	arrdem: I think you're not really doing what edw_ is doing; especially in the first clause of -=>
15:55	gfredericks	e.g. (-=> 12 inc) should return [13 [[12 12] [inc 13]]] I think
15:55	gfredericks	whereas you would return [[12] 13]
15:55	arrdem	gfredericks: yeah you're right. I'm just logging intermediate values not the expressions too.
15:55	gfredericks	on top of evaling the first arg twice
15:56	arrdem	well that I can fix easily.
15:57	gfredericks	fo sho
15:58	gfredericks	macros are fun
15:58	gfredericks	stay safe kids, use a function
15:58	arrdem	pfft
15:58	arrdem	compile time hackery ftw
16:00	arrdem	gfredericks: you do produce the terminal expression/value pair in the log?
16:01	gfredericks	arrdem: yep
16:05	arrdem	gfredericks: herm... the tail expression is proving sticky.
16:06	gfredericks	the tail expression?
16:06	arrdem	I have (-=> (inc 61) (#(- % 1))) eval to [[[(inc 61) 62]] 61]
16:07	edw_	arrdem: It's a dynamically-scoped atom, so it'll work when nested.
16:08	edw_	arrdem: Unless Rich introduces CALL/CC, in which case I'm fucked, possibly.
16:09	arrdem	edw_: that's not something I'd worry about.
16:09	edw_	arrdem: Dare to dream. (I'm a Scheme refugee.)
16:10	arrdem	edw: is call/cc suddenly a good thing? the last several thunks of literature I read were not exaclty flattering...
16:11	edw	arrdem: Suddenly?
16:12	edw	I don't think anyone advocates deploying CALL/CC casually.
16:13	arrdem	gfredericks: paste updated, now does logging but will totally break if nested.
16:15	gfredericks	arrdem: nesting is problematic anyways since you have to pull out the ... oh I dunno
16:16	arrdem	bah I break on the empty tail case...
17:23	AimHere	Hmmm, is read-string safe to do on a string where you know the first-character is ':'?
17:24	AimHere	Is there any danger of that being not-a-keyword?
17:28	justin_smith	if you are using at least clojure 1.5 and you use clojure.edn/read-string that should be fine
17:28	justin_smith	but you could also call keyword on a string
17:29	justin_smith	,(keyword (subs ":hello" 1))
17:29	clojurebot	:hello
17:29	AimHere	Yeah, I did think of that, just wanted the code slightly neater
17:33	technomancy	use c.c/name instead of subs
18:08	alew	it's not possible to kill one cider/nrepl session at a time is it? you have to kill all of them?
18:26	gdev	alew, how are you trying to kill the sessions?
18:27	alew	the only command I know of is cider-quit
18:27	alew	or cider-restart
18:35	bitemyapp	edw: call/cc is not a good idea.
18:37	bitemyapp	arrdem: call/cc is still a bad idea.
18:39	arrdem	holy shit bitemyapp just agreed with me. christmass came early :P
18:40	arrdem	bitemyapp: so I realized that all my data modeling in Clojure is typeclass based. :P
18:40	andyf	Bronsa: ping
18:41	Bronsa	andyf: pong
18:43	andyf	Bronsa: Perhaps new type of exception from tools.analyzer(.jvm): If you have a few mins, try out latest Eastwood + libs on Raynes/fs: https://github.com/Raynes/fs He has a perhaps unusual macro that causes exception that I haven't gotten to the bottom of yet.
18:43	andyf	I can file a ticket to track it if you like.
18:43	Raynes	lol
18:44	Raynes	Interesting.
18:44	andyf	Raynes: This is very likely nothing bad about your code, but about tools.analyzer(.jvm)'s newness.
18:44	Bronsa	andyf: taking a look now
18:44	Raynes	I didn't write any of those macros anyways :p
18:45	Raynes	I'm interested in what the issue is when someone finds out, though.
18:45	andyf	I've been throwing lots of open source projects at pre-release Eastwood lint tool, in hopes of shaking out the kinds of problems that people would file after the release announcement :-)
18:46	bitemyapp	andyf: a script that automatically downloads a list of projects and runs eastwood against them sounds useful.
18:46	andyf	bitemyapp: Got one :-)
18:46	Bronsa	mmh
18:46	Bronsa	https://github.com/Raynes/fs/blob/master/src/me/raynes/fs.clj#L156 might be the issue
18:47	andyf	bitemyapp: I have been gradually adding projects to the list as things get more stable.
18:47	bitemyapp	andyf: very cool. Automation is sanity :)
18:47	Bronsa	Raynes: andyf: yep, that's it
18:48	anagrius	You think it would it be worth it to make a port of swank-cdt for cider? Or is swank-cdt working fine for everyone?
18:48	Bronsa	Raynes: s/./../
18:48	andyf	Bronsa: I don't understand the issue yet. It needs type hint on this?
18:48	andyf	Oh, syntax error?
18:48	Bronsa	andyf: no, it needs to be (.. this (toFile) (toUrl))
18:49	andyf	Any guesses why Clojure doesn't mind that expression?
18:50	Bronsa	I'd guess because clojure simply ignores (toUrl)
18:50	andyf	Bronsa: I'll experiment
18:51	Bronsa	andyf: lints fine now but.. it seems like it hangs when linting the tests
18:51	andyf	I think that is a different namespace. I can look into that more. Most common cause I've seen so far is tests open a connection to a host that cannot be reached.
18:52	Bronsa	btw yeah https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Compiler.java#L950
18:52	Bronsa	if the third argument to a . form is a list, Compiler.java will ignore everything else
18:52	andyf	Cool. Thanks for tracking it down so quickly.
18:53	andyf	Sounds like a good thing to check for in a linter some time
18:54	andyf	Well, I guess since tools.analyzer throws an exception on it, perhaps better said is: another opportunity for Eastwood to print a message a developer can understand when this happens.
18:55	Bronsa	andyf: I'll make tools.analyzer throw a nicer error for that
18:56	andyf	Bronsa: Great. If it can have ex-data with the ast of the whole . expression containing the problem, that would be useful.
19:01	cYmen	After adding a dependency to my projec.clj what do I have to do to make my repl aware of it?
19:02	rovar	did something change in clojuremode recently to convert lambda and fn to the lambda character and pretty f?
19:02	Bronsa	andyf: https://github.com/clojure/tools.analyzer/commit/5c31e2058369c230b493e671caa48be741919b71#diff-ca9fdc7850490879310292f81bfbb68fR608
19:02	rovar	I've seen discussion on the mailing list about it, but it was never enabled, it seems, until today..
19:03	cYmen	rovar: hm..my emacs has been doing that for a while
19:03	Bronsa	andyf: I cannot give you the AST in the ex-data because there's not one yet at that point :)
19:04	rovar	cYmen: it only seems to do it when I load files.. I'd prefer it didn't
19:08	Bronsa	Raynes: https://github.com/Raynes/fs/pull/66 \cc andyf
19:09	Raynes	Ugh.
19:09	Raynes	Bronsa: I swear, either someone isn't adding tests, someone isn't running tests, or I don't understand tests.
19:09	Bronsa	Raynes: it's ok, I suck at tests too.
19:21	arrdem	that makes three of us...
19:22	edw	arrdem: https://github.com/edw/tinsel/blob/master/src/tinsel/core.clj
19:23	edw	No atom.
19:23	edw	Mucho beautiful.
19:23	arrdem	very immutable
19:23	arrdem	so linted
19:23	arrdem	wow
19:23	Bronsa	lol
19:24	arrdem	edw: nice! do like!
19:24	arrdem	(inc edw) ;; have some internet points
19:24	lazybot	⇒ 1
19:25	arrdem	we need a library with bits like this that's actively maintained...
19:29	arrdem	edw: note, you have a typo in the readme.md
19:29	arrdem	edw: the require specifier is missing a ]
19:31	sherbondy	hiya folks, could someone explain to me why the syntax for field access of data-types is inconsistent across clj and cljs?
19:31	edw	D'oh. Fixed.
19:31	edw	Thanks.
19:31	sherbondy	in clj, both (.field type-inst) and (.-field type-inst) are supported, but in cljs, only (.-field type-inst) is
19:32	edw	arrdem: I didn't see your second message; I figured you were torturing me, knowing what a stickler for typos I am.
19:32	arrdem	edw: haha. no problem. cool project idea btw! much less evil than my old pr-let macro :P
19:33	edw	pr-let?! Sadly, I have dont things like that: pr-identity,specifically.
19:34	edw	arrdem: I got to thinking about this in the context of Lighttable, and wanting to use Clojure to manage my checking account.
19:34	arrdem	pr-identity should be clojure.core/...
19:34	arrdem	pr-let was just a bad idea hack.
19:35	edw	I had like a forty-line long set of let bindings and I was NOT going to break that fucker up just to print one of those intermediate values!
19:36	edw	What _was_ the horrible, horrible piece of code I wrote for? No matter...
19:39	edw	arrdem: What you _really_ need is NAMED-PR-LET, because--obviously!--you're going to sprinkle it all over your code, and how will you tell what's what?
19:42	arrdem	edw: that can be done too...
19:44	edw	To go to BK or not to go to BK... I mean, I took a shower and everything!
19:44	arrdem	edw: https://refheap.com/22205
19:45	arrdem	edw: one more for the macroheap
19:45	arrdem	sadly we don't have a fn variable...
19:48	edw	High on my list of lein plugins I'd like to write is something to implement paste-dependencies e.g. refheap, gists. Many of my projects are just dinky little < 100 line collections of code I use all the time.
19:50	arrdem	eeh... for all that it'd be nice to have paste dependencies, or to have a fast evolving macro dumping ground it kinda makes using such things difficult.
19:51	arrdem	but I agree, for a lot of things the full blown maven versioning is kina overkill.
19:51	edw	There is the guy who did the GitHub deps plugin. I forget what the big project he is/was involved with. It's been a while.
19:52	arrdem	if you find it, please link it here. I'm intrigued.
19:52	arrdem	but I doubt that it's the right "light weight" solution.
19:53	edw	Oh, he was Mr Clojurescript One.
19:54	edw	https://github.com/tobyhede/lein-git-deps
19:54	edw	https://github.com/brentonashworth/one
19:56	arrdem	idk...
19:56	arrdem	technomancy: I assume we'll never see a "git dependency" structure in main :deps
19:58	arrdem	edw: cool. I may have to use that. not sure that it's a general replacement for Maven/clojars but for some really small things it may be appropriate.
20:00	edw	Yeah. I was looking into it when I was trying to solve our internal Clojure code reuse (and deployment to Heroku) problem. Deploying from private repos (of any kind) to Heroku is kinda a PITA.
20:00	dsrx	arrdem: there is a lein plugin for that
20:01	edw	OK, I'm off to go to Otto's Shrunken Head to get some Xmas Eve fun in.
20:01	dsrx	lein-git-deps I think?
20:01	edw	dsrx: Yes, we we're actually just discussing it.
20:01	arrdem	I mean my thing with targeting git as a dependency is that religious use of lein ancient would be better
20:01	dsrx	oh...
20:01	edw	Tootles!
20:01	arrdem	edw: merry christmass!
20:03	edw	Thank you. I'll have a tiki punch for you.
20:22	bitemyapp	edw: you know there was already a Clojure library with the name tinsel right?
20:23	bitemyapp	edw: also: I like your library.
20:28	arrdem	bitemyapp: do you have a solution to the "rappidly evolving snippets bucket" problem?
20:28	bitemyapp	arrdem: code snippets?
20:30	bitemyapp	logic_prog: it's Christmas :P
20:30	arrdem	bitemyapp: basically if edw were to throw a bunch of other stuff in tinsle depending on or using it direclty becomes a source of overhead
20:30	arrdem	bitemyapp: but at the same time, packaging a bunch of snippets into one place is a good thing
20:30	arrdem	because otherwise you'll just end up `cp`ing a bunch of snippet files around between projects
20:31	arrdem	which is not managable or repeatable at all.
20:31	bitemyapp	arrdem: flatland/useful set a precedent.
20:31	bitemyapp	I'd advise breaking off pieces more often than they did though.
20:56	shep-home	Hmm, I'm getting a stacktrace from clojure.test: https://gist.github.com/shepmaster/8119538
20:56	shep-home	And seemingly, it only touches my file in the ns declaration
20:57	shep-home	at Java.lang.ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException: null
20:57	shep-home	I am running my tests from within emacs / cider
21:00	shep-home	Hmm, it seems like it might occur the second time i run my tests...
21:00	shep-home	closing the repl and starting a new one works once
21:00	ivan	can you paste the code?
21:10	Bronsa	andyf: I looked into using the ::source info to rewrite e.g defonce-or-defmulti-macro-expansion?
21:11	Bronsa	andyf: problem is, suppose you have (defmacro x [] (defonce foo 1)), the macroexpanded form of (x) will have '(x) as ::source, so it will not know about the defonce
21:12	andyf	Bronsa: Thanks for looking into it.
21:13	Bronsa	andyf: looks like trying to match the expanded code is the only way to cover all the cases sadly
21:13	andyf	Bronsa: I would be more disappointed with that news if I hadn't already implemented it :-)
21:14	andyf	As it is, you are giving me more reasons to leave it as it is.
21:15	shep-home	ivan: I'll have to try to reduce it first, which might help anyway. I guess it isn't a known/obvious issue then
21:23	sherbondy	I have a question about deftype and extend type
21:24	sherbondy	say I make a datatype with deftype, like, (deftype point [x y z])
21:24	sherbondy	and then I call (extend-type point ...)
21:24	sherbondy	will I have access to x y and z?
21:36	bitemyapp	Raynes: Vault is fucking terrifying.
21:36	Raynes	?
21:37	bitemyapp	Raynes: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/vault-0.1.0.0/docs/Data-Vault.html#t:Vault from http://hackage.haskell.org/package/wai-1.2.0.1/docs/Network-Wai.html#t:Request - The authors of WAI were apparently concerned about performance _
21:38	Raynes	bitemyapp: What.
21:39	Raynes	how what is this does even
21:39	bitemyapp	Raynes: you know how in Ring we just kick request maps around?
21:39	gdev	alew, okay I figured it out, if you do C-k and select the buffer you want to kill, it should let you do what I think it is you were trying to do
21:39	bitemyapp	and if you want to chain state, you just assoc?
21:40	bitemyapp	Raynes: they made request a record, then stashed "extra" key value pairs in a vault field.
21:40	bitemyapp	for speeeeeeed
21:40	Raynes	lolol
21:40	justin_smith	gdev: I think it is cleaner to just run (System/exit 0) in the repl you want to shut down
21:41	gdev	alew, scratch that, I've just been informed that you can do (System/exit 0) in the repl you want to shut down
21:42	bitemyapp	Raynes: Vault is basically ST for keys of * -> *. fucking nuts.
21:53	alew	ah ok
22:15	andyf	Bronsa: 'hanging' while linting other namespaces of 'fs' project was due to a future call, and Eastwood not doing (shutdown-agents). It does now.
22:15	Bronsa	andyf: oh, ok
22:16	andyf	Bronsa: I am just glad I already knew about the 1-minute hang at the end and its cause, or it would have driven me nuts.
22:16	Bronsa	andyf: btw I'm toying a bit with using datomic to query the ast, here's what I got for checking if an ast represents a defonce: http://sprunge.us/FfUb?clj
22:18	andyf	Bronsa: I do not grok datomic queries yet, which I guess are just datalog, but is line 6 unnecessary?
22:18	Bronsa	andyf: no, just a junk leftover
22:20	andyf	Bronsa: Is the main motivation for having the ast in datomic so that one can write queries in this form? Or is there another reason?
22:23	Bronsa	andyf: it seemed something nice to experiment after seeing jonase's work so I did https://github.com/Bronsa/tools.analyzer.jvm.index
22:23	Bronsa	andyf: yeah, querying the AST is my main & only motivation ATM
22:24	andyf	Bronsa: I can see why that would be an attraction, and cool that you guys are implementing it. I may not get into it for a bit longer myself, just from trying to get a few more things tidied up elsewhere in Eastwood first.
22:25	andyf	Yesterday was my "flurry of filing patches motivated by things Eastwood found" day. Sounds like we already have a fan or two.
22:26	Bronsa	andyf: it's definitely not a priority for me either, but it looks fun enough to give it a try sometime in the future
22:26	Bronsa	andyf: yeah -- https://twitter.com/michaelklishin/status/415407087393730560
22:34	TEttinger	so my quick search turned up nothing, but is there a library out there for seeded random number generation in clojure? I use rand-nth a fair bit now, but I would like to be able to make that have reproducible results given a certain seed
22:35	TEttinger	... going to check ztellman's github...
22:38	andyf	TEttinger: Don't the underlying Java methods have ways of initializing the seed?
22:39	TEttinger	andyf, maybe, but I don't know what java.util.Random object they are using
22:39	TEttinger	I found https://github.com/kephale/clj-random/blob/master/src/clj_random/core.clj
22:40	kephale	yeah!
22:43	TEttinger	heh hi kephale
22:43	kephale	if there is a lot of complaint about the naming i'd be happy to add some aliases to the standard randX function names
22:43	kephale	howdy
22:43	TEttinger	no, that makes total sense
22:43	TEttinger	think I found an error
22:43	kephale	aiee
22:44	TEttinger	https://github.com/kephale/clj-random/blob/master/src/clj_random/core.clj#L105
22:44	TEttinger	not a logic error
22:44	kephale	ah in the comment, gotcha, thanks
22:44	TEttinger	just... the rand-nth function would only behave correctly if the range is [0,n)
22:44	TEttinger	if n is inclusive, lrand-nth wouldn't work
22:45	TEttinger	I'd also check lrand , see if it's correct
22:47	egosum	merry almost christmas :) i was wondering if there were a std lib fn equiv to #(%1 %2)?
22:47	andyf	egosum: apply?
22:47	kephale	lrand seems to be ok…
22:48	andyf	egosum: That is not quite what you are asking for, though, since apply treats its last arg as a sequence of args, not a single arg.
22:48	TEttinger	kephale, just wasn't sure if it was supposed to have 1 inclusive
22:48	egosum	andyf: exactly
22:48	kephale	ahhh yes gotcha
22:48	kephale	TEttinger: i'll double check the inclusivity
22:49	TEttinger	kephale, this looks very useful, surprised this didn't exist before you made it
22:49	egosum	i just prefer to avoid the whole #(%1 %2) for totally aesthetic reasons…i don't like reading J/APL hah
22:49	kephale	i know! i was shocked too
22:50	egosum	i just made it instead… (defn call [f & args] (apply f args))
22:53	TEttinger	egosum, there's the literal translation of (fn [f x] (f x))
22:54	egosum	TEttinger: right, that's essentially what I'm doing with `call`, just making sure i hadn't missed a std lib fn/lazy-webbing. Thanks :)
22:55	TEttinger	wondering if there's a way to do it with partial
22:56	egosum	partial generally doesn't play nice with multiple arity
22:59	logic_prog	Is there a way to use crossovers where a given piece of code (1) uses clojure.core.async in clj land and (2) cljs.core.async in cljs land?
23:04	ddellacosta	logic_prog: probably cljx is going to be your friend here--as far as I know that's the one thing crossovers doesn't do well. Although, I suppose you could do it with a macro, somehow...
23:04	ddellacosta	logic_prog: or more accurately, that is exactly cljx's use-case
23:04	logic_prog	damn
23:04	logic_prog	I just got comfortable with crossovers
23:05	ddellacosta	logic_prog: well, I'm sure that's not wasted time. :-)
23:05	edw	Speakers or automobiless?
23:05	edw	s/automobiless/automobiles/
23:06	andyf	Bronsa: Here is another one that might be new to you, and perhaps not reasonable to try to make tools.analyzer(.jvm) handle. simple-check has a namespace simple-check.clojure-test defining a macro defspec, and inside that macro's expansion it does a (require 'simple-check.core), with a comment about shame in introducing a cyclical dependency.
23:06	logic_prog	haha
23:06	logic_prog	this is rsorta badass
23:07	logic_prog	it's basically jsut #+clj and #+cljs
23:07	logic_prog	reminds me of C macros, _if_def_ hell
23:07	ddellacosta	logic_prog: yeah, I mean, maybe there is a way to do it w/crossovers, but I gotta say, cljx makes it really easy.
23:07	ddellacosta	logic_prog: so you're probably best off just using that.
23:08	edw	logic_prog: I thought you were making your own speakers or something.
23:08	Bronsa	andyf: I'll look into that maybe tomorrow, it's 5am here now and I'm going to sleep :)
23:08	logic_prog	well, they say an expert if someone who has made all the newb mistakes
23:08	andyf	no rush
23:08	ddellacosta	edw: https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild/blob/master/doc/CROSSOVERS.md
23:08	logic_prog	I'm soon to be a cljs/clj code sharing expert
23:08	ddellacosta	logic_prog: :-)
23:08	logic_prog	edw: lol, I was wondering if you were posting in the wrong channel
23:08	sherbondy	speaking of cljx, has anyone tried writing custom rules?
23:09	sherbondy	the readme is a little cryptic on that, but I'm guessing it's just kibit rules?
23:09	logic_prog	cljx should just use clojure macros
23:09	logic_prog	for specifying clj / cljs code
23:09	Bronsa	andyf: mind to open a JIRA ticket so I don't forget?
23:09	logic_prog	basically, if you should be able to define e macro, and depending on :clj or :cljs, it does different things
23:09	ddellacosta	sherbondy: I haven't, but definitely curious about it.
23:09	sherbondy	oh, nit's no longer based on kibit, never mind
23:10	sherbondy	https://github.com/lynaghk/cljx/blob/master/src/cljx/rules.clj
23:10	sherbondy	so the bottom of that file sheds some light on the expected format of the transformations
23:11	ddellacosta	logic_prog: not sure what you're arguing for--doesn't cljx already basically work that way? I think I'm not understanding your point.
23:11	logic_prog	ddellacosta: in you opinion, is htere ever a reason to use crossover + cljx together? as I go through the cljx setup, it seems to be a strict superset of what crossover does. in particular, cljx without #+cljs #+cljx = what crossover does
23:11	sherbondy	yep, you shouldn't need both
23:11	ddellacosta	logic_prog: yeah, I would imagine so. The one project I used cljx in I didn't use crossovers.
23:12	logic_prog	hmm, learning about cljx makes my christmas eve sorta happy :-)
23:12	edw	ddellacosta: Ah!
23:12	sherbondy	hey, you folks want to see a neato project that uses cljx?
23:12	sherbondy	It's still very much a wip, but it finally runs in the browser and the jvm!
23:13	sherbondy	https://github.com/sherbondy/rt
23:13	sherbondy	a ray tracer!
23:13	sherbondy	lein cljsbuild once, then open index.html and wait a few seconds, and a tiny raytraced scene will appear
23:13	sherbondy	likewise, lein run, and a .ppm file of the same scene will appear in the directory!
23:14	edw	I'd forgotten about that. Clojure-in-Scheme got me thinking about writing an EDN reader for a Scheme so I could then create a Scheme dialect using sets, hashes, and vectors as part of the syntax.
23:14	sherbondy	the algorithm is very naive, and I'm using clojure seqs all over the place instead of native arrays, but it's a raytracer, dammit!
23:14	logic_prog	sherbondy: does it run on asm.js yet :-)
23:14	sherbondy	oh, and it uses core typed!
23:14	sherbondy	ha, no
23:15	logic_prog	fuck ... with cljx, why do I have separate clj and cljs src directories ?
23:15	edw	bitemyapp: Thank you. Thank arrdem for shaming me into making a beautiful version.
23:15	logic_prog	why not one gigantic code base?
23:15	sherbondy	for platform-specific libraries
23:16	andyf	Bronsa: will do
23:16	sherbondy	no point wrapping a ton of functions in #+clj, might as well be a separate library
23:16	sherbondy	*namespace
23:19	ddellacosta	sherbondy: that's really cool. :-)
23:19	ddellacosta	logic_prog: yeah, I think it depends on what the volume of your platform specific code ends up being
23:20	ddellacosta	logic_prog: if it's minimal, you can get away with including it all in the same cljx files. Otherwise separate dirs/libs makes sense I think.
23:22	ddellacosta	sherbondy: I look forward to reading through your ray tracer when I've got some time...nice little project. I haven't done much core.typed either. Neato.
23:30	TEttinger	sherbondy, haha neat. ppm is one of those internally-it's-text image formats, right?
23:31	sherbondy	yep, that's right
23:32	sherbondy	just a string of 0-255 r g b values
23:32	sherbondy	delimited by spaces
23:32	TEttinger	oh I was thinking of xpm I think
23:33	TEttinger	https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11914692/dungeontiles.xpm I think this is valid C source?
23:57	logic_prog	I am having a dumbass cljx problem:
23:58	logic_prog	"lein cljsbuild auto" does not seem to pick up on "touch shared/data.cljx"
23:58	logic_prog	basically, when I edit my *.cljx files, lein cljsbuild auto does not fire off
23:58	logic_prog	yet, shared/data.cljx is being used
23:58	logic_prog	I know this becuase "lein cljsbuid auto" compiles it the first time around (giving a warning)