#clojure – 2013-12-23

2013-12-23

00:00	cemerick	xeqi: ouch; conveyance fail?
00:07	alew	Is there anything you can do if one of your dependencies dependencies depends on an earlier version of a library that you depend on?
00:07	alew	exclusions seem to only work for direct dependencies
00:07	justin_smith	:exclusions
00:08	justin_smith	hmm - you sure of that?
00:08	cjfrisz	ethanis: just noticed that #typed-clojure was less helpful than I'd hoped. Having any luck with your errors?
00:08	TEttinger	my approach is not recommended, but fork, update, post parallel version to clojars
00:08	justin_smith	alew: did you verify with lein deps :tree that it wasn't coming in from another dep path?
00:08	alew	lein deps :tree shows a library called clucy
00:08	alew	which depends on lucene libs
00:08	TEttinger	uhhhhh
00:09	alew	only from looking at it
00:09	TEttinger	I really hope you didn't use my clucy
00:09	alew	no
00:09	TEttinger	good, because I regret putting my version of clucy on clojars
00:09	TEttinger	it has slightly different behavior, which I needed for efficient queries in an IRC bot
00:10	alew	do people use it?
00:10	TEttinger	I use it
00:10	alew	regardles, clucy depends on these libs, but they don't show up in the dependency tree
00:10	alew	I'm guessing because they aren't on clojars?
00:10	TEttinger	???
00:10	lazybot	TEttinger: How could that be wrong?
00:11	TEttinger	they might be on maven central
00:11	TEttinger	paste your deps :tree ?
00:11	justin_smith	alew: if there is aot compilation somewhere in there, that can fuck things up
00:12	alew	https://www.refheap.com/22136
00:13	TEttinger	thanks
00:13	justin_smith	and which is the problem, clucy 0.3.1?
00:14	alew	yes
00:14	alew	as you can see
00:14	alew	it doesn't show it's dependencies on lucene
00:14	alew	its*
00:14	justin_smith	right
00:14	justin_smith	notice the exclusion above
00:14	justin_smith	as asked for
00:15	alew	yup
00:15	justin_smith	so what's the problem?
00:15	alew	elastisch requires a newer version of lucene
00:16	alew	it isn't getting included
00:16	alew	oh I see
00:16	alew	the thing is even if I do remove the exclusions
00:16	alew	it doesn't show the deps
00:16	justin_smith	odd
00:17	alew	https://www.refheap.com/22137
00:18	justin_smith	looks like the lucene stuff is coming in under elastisch instead
00:19	alew	Oh I see
00:19	alew	so the error is in clucy
00:19	alew	what to do then. They both require the same library with incompatible versions
00:20	TEttinger	this looks like a question for #leiningen !
00:21	justin_smith	hmm, two apps :) ??
00:21	lazybot	justin_smith: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?
00:25	justin_smith	alew: you can use caribou without it's clucy dep if you don't need lucene indexing of the CMS content
00:25	justin_smith	that may be the easiest route
00:25	alew	I would have to modify the clojar
00:26	alew	and remove the index file
00:35	rhg135	hey, any obvious reason the accept println fires twice but the grabbed doesn't ever https://www.refheap.com/22138
00:35	rhg135	trying to make a smallish abstraction over serversockets
00:36	rhg135	something in my gut says that it's a fundumental problem in my approach
00:36	rhg135	but i don't see it
00:42	rhg135	ah i'm such an idiot lol
00:42	rhg135	thanks for the ruber-duck debugging
00:51	pcn	Does anyone know if there's a way to have a somewhat large float not print using scientific notation when I pass it to the clojure.data.json/write-str function?
00:52	pcn	,(/ (float (System/currentTimeMillis)) 1000)
00:52	clojurebot	1.38777788416E9
00:52	pcn	,(str (/ (float (System/currentTimeMillis)) 1000))
00:52	clojurebot	"1.38777788416E9"
00:52	pcn	I'd really like to be able to change the scale at which values are displayed using scientific notation
00:56	pcn	Though I guess in this case I'm not losing an precision.
01:03	xeqi	cemerick: finally tracked it down, turns out not to be a binding conveyance problem
01:03	KeithPM	Good day, when would you recommend the use of -> and ->> for someone who is learning clojure? I am attracted to it since it seems to help with the issue of deeply nested functions and data structures. What is the general experience with their use? Thnaks.
01:07	xeqi	cemerick: if interested... anything calling println (like interruptible_eval's :caught through repl-caught) binds print-readably to nil, and writes to out. out was a session-out which calls the transport on flush. the transport called (pr-str ..) and got unexpected results
01:22	ddellacosta	KeithPM: if you see a whole mess of parens at the end of the function, it's possible that there's an opportunity to use -> or ->> to make your code more clear.
01:23	ddellacosta	KeithPM: And generally speaking, I find -> to be useful when I'm processing one value going through a chain of transformations, versus ->> seems to usually be used when I'm processing a collection going through a set of collections. You'll notice that many clojure functions which process collections require the collection as the final argument--map, filter, reduce, etc.
01:25	ddellacosta	sorry, I misspoke: with "set of collections" I mean to say something along the lines of, "set of transformations"
01:25	ddellacosta	or chain of transformations, as in the previous sentence
01:28	KeithPM	I like that answer ddellacosta!! That was my intuition but I wanted to know whether it was idiomatic or just academic. I just wrote a pair? function and ended up with 6 closing brackets and thought, maybe this is the time to start learning to use thread first :)
01:29	pcn	Is Raynes around?
01:29	ddellacosta	KeithPM: great, glad it was helpful. Yeah, I think that it's good just to try it out and get an intuition yourself for when it works and when it's trying to fit a "square peg in a round hole" so to speak. But it can definitely help clarify your code when you start seeing the kind of pattern you describe.
01:30	pcn	Or is there anyone else familiar with his filesystem module, or with java 7 and its file manipulation routines?
01:31	ddellacosta	pcn: I've used it a little, but ask your question first and we'll see if anyone can help.
01:31	pcn	It looks like https://github.com/Raynes/fs/blob/master/src/me/raynes/fs.clj#L174 breaks because the taret doesn't exist
01:32	KeithPM	Thank you ddellacosta.
01:32	ddellacosta	pcn: do you have some more context? How are you calling it? Etc.
01:32	ddellacosta	KeithPM: any time!
01:32	pcn	So for example: https://gist.github.com/pcn/8092544
01:34	ddellacosta	pcn: seems like maybe you just want to call the args in the opposite order? http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/nio/file/Files.html#createLink(java.nio.file.Path,%20java.nio.file.Path)
01:34	pcn	I tried both
01:34	pcn	I'll add that
01:34	ddellacosta	pcn: hmm...well, it seems like that's obviously the error in this case--but do you get the same error if you switch the args?
01:35	pcn	(yeah, I noticed that java decided to put things in the opposite order from the system call. sigh)
01:35	ddellacosta	pcn: sorry if you already looked it up--I always start with the dumb questions. ;-)
01:36	pcn	Yes, I updated the gist
01:36	pcn	I looked it up before, and checked the code. It seems like the most likely reason is that as-path checks to see if its argument exists in me.raynes.fs
01:37	pcn	Haven't checked to see how as-file works yet.
01:37	KeithPM	Oops the names of the symbols are 'thread second' and 'thread last' sorry
01:37	pcn	sorry, that should be as-file
01:37	ddellacosta	pcn: huh...I don't know, but my strategy would be to try calling the Java calls themselves to establish that there was nothing weird there, then you would know clearly where the issue is, I suspect
01:37	ddellacosta	pcn: sorry I don't have a better answer!
01:39	pcn	NP, I'll head down that road. Weird that as-file isn't causing the problem by itself. Down the rabbit hole
01:42	pcn	ddellacosta: So it's not clojure.java.io/as-file, it's this: https://github.com/Raynes/fs/blob/master/src/me/raynes/fs.clj#L155
01:42	pcn	I have no idea what that means
01:43	ddellacosta	pcn: where is as-file getting called?
01:45	pcn	Oh....
01:45	pcn	Darn, I'm getting turned around. in the definition of link, it is as-path
01:47	ddellacosta	pcn: what do you get when you call file on the path you pass in (the one you are linking to that is)
01:47	ddellacosta	?
01:53	pcn	(fs/file target) is fine so far
01:57	pcn	OK, I see my problem.
01:57	pcn	I've got an extra "/" in the name
01:57	pcn	And I'm putting the arguments in the reverse order from what I'd expect.
01:58	pcn	Why oh why oh why is createLink in the opposite order as the system call?
02:07	OtherRaven	I've got a noobish question: How do I go about extending a java class to implement a java interface? I'm trying to make a renderer for a listbox that's not the default label.
02:11	pcn	ddellacosta: https://github.com/Raynes/fs/pull/65
02:14	ddellacosta	pcn: so, did that fix it?
02:15	ddellacosta	pcn: oh sorry, just saw your messages
02:15	ddellacosta	cool
02:15	ddellacosta	OtherRaven: there are different ways to do it--if you just want to add a method then you can use extend-type
02:16	OtherRaven	ddellacosta: what about proxy?
02:16	ddellacosta	OtherRaven: I found these two posts to be super helpful regarding that subject: https://kotka.de/blog/2010/02/gen-class_how_it_works_and_how_to_use_it.html and https://kotka.de/blog/2010/03/proxy_gen-class_little_brother.html
02:17	OtherRaven	ddellacosta: Oooh, I'll check those out.
02:17	ddellacosta	OtherRaven: yeah, proxy may be more what you want
02:18	OtherRaven	ddellacosta: thanks XD
02:18	ddellacosta	OtherRaven: sure thing!
02:20	ddellacosta	OtherRaven: sorry, re-reading your question I realize you want to create an interface--I'm not sure how to do that in Clojure
02:22	ddellacosta	OtherRaven: definterface creates a new interface...
02:23	OtherRaven	ddellacosta: newp, don't need to create an interface, just implement it
02:23	OtherRaven	ddellacosta: I'm extending JPanel to implement ListCellRenderer... and cursing at swing
02:23	ddellacosta	OtherRaven: ah, in that case, I know gen-class can do that.
02:24	OtherRaven	ddellacosta: sweet
02:24	ddellacosta	OtherRaven: oh, have you checked out https://github.com/daveray/seesaw ? May have some good examples for what you want to do, at the least.
02:25	OtherRaven	ddellacosta: yeah, I'm using seesaw... it's great for the simple stuff, but doing anything more complex seems to require java interop
02:26	ddellacosta	OtherRaven: ah okay, sorry--nevermind!
02:27	ddellacosta	OtherRaven: I also recommend the Joy of Clojure section on Java interop, if you have a copy...in any case, I've just about exhausted my pretty limited knowledge of Java interop, so you're on your own from here--but good luck!
02:28	OtherRaven	ddellacosta: that book is sooo hard... I'm reading through Clojure Programming instead, but doing is usually more fun than reading XD
02:28	ddellacosta	OtherRaven: I hear ya...haha. :-)
02:29	ddellacosta	OtherRaven: well, it is a useful book when you find you really need to understand a particular topic in Clojure. I can tell you struggling through it can be very useful!
02:31	OtherRaven	ddellacosta: Yeah, I'm planning to give it another try when I've got the basics down a bit better. It seems to go by those relatively quickly.
02:32	ddellacosta	OtherRaven: yep, I think your intuition is right--in my opinion, Clojure Programming is definitely a better first Clojure book, I think. Joy of Clojure is good when you want to deepen your understanding further. They are good companions to each other, I think.
02:33	OtherRaven	ddellacosta: makes sense
02:40	pcn	I just ran an experiment where I sent about 1000 short messages via a small program. Each message is read from an open socket (all are coming in one per line over a single socket). The message is "some text" <a number> <another number>\n
02:41	pcn	After processing 10000 of them (not 1000, sorry) and writing them out to disk, my laptop's fan went crazy and didn't stop until I killed the java process.
02:42	pcn	All messages were already written out, the socket was closed from the client. Any ideas as to how to investigate what was causing the activity?
02:44	TEttinger	it could have run out of memory, so it wasn't able to continue to process messages or something
02:44	TEttinger	I've gotten similar stuff with very large data sets
02:44	TEttinger	(as in, infinite)
02:45	pcn	I'd be really surprised if that was the case here. As I said, 10,000 lines of input, and all were written out. The repl was still responsive
02:45	TEttinger	also, you closed the sockets, right? I admit I haven't worked (at all) with networking code, but they are file-like in that they need to be closed?
02:46	pcn	They are, but there is only 1, and it was closed on the client side
02:46	pcn	While there could be a leak, there were none opened afterwards
02:46	TEttinger	paste your code?
02:46	pcn	Let me push it up to github
02:50	l1x	is there a way to print out the exact execution for a recursive function? https://gist.github.com/l1x/8093128
02:51	pcn	TEttinger: https://github.com/pcn/carbon-relaj
02:54	TEttinger	pcn, thanks. unfortunately I have no idea how to use the async stuff. I bet someone here will know how, when they become active
02:54	pcn	Cool.
02:55	pcn	Thanks for looking at it
02:55	TEttinger	heh, sorry I couldn't be more help
02:58	OtherRaven	dellacosta: well, I figured it out... looks like proxy is the way to go, and it's disgustingly simple XD
02:59	pcn	I'll try again when I get up. It's way past my bedtime. Have a good night, all.
03:08	ddellacosta	pcn: g'night!
03:08	ddellacosta	OtherRaven: nice, glad to hear it. ;-)
03:19	KeithPM	Hi is anyone out there using light table 0.5.20?
04:25	magnars	What is the reason to use jetty over just creating an upstart service that runs java -jar ?
04:34	sm0ke	has it happened to someone that putting a new dependency in project.clj caused existing namespaces to throw errors on evaluation?
04:43	sm0ke	very vauge question i see
04:43	seriously_random	having brain malfunction with reduce: http://pastebin.com/CDVS5pfn
04:46	magnars	seriously_random: you are looking for clojure.core/interpose
04:46	seriously_random	magnars, if it were so easy. I am supposed implement my own interpose.
04:49	sm0ke	Ok guys if i put https://github.com/elasticsearch/elasticsearch-hadoop dependency, nippy seems to be found nowhere in the classpath inspite of being in the project.clj as dependency
04:49	sm0ke	wtf
04:50	magnars	maybe lein deps :tree has some answers?
04:51	sm0ke	magnars: nothing except that its listed there
04:51	sm0ke	no one else is pulling nippy
04:52	sm0ke	may be lein is limited in no. of jars in the classpath
04:57	sm0ke	lein classpath shows nippy
04:58	sm0ke	CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method: compress, compiling:(taoensso/nippy/compression.clj:18:22)
05:22	seriously_random	this done in less amount of code: (reverse (conj (conj '() x) 4))?
05:31	seriously_random	magnars, think I almost got it: http://pastebin.com/5Jg4MYJ5
05:36	ior3k	seriously_random: I think you want (interleave '(1 2 3) (repeat 4))
05:37	seriously_random	ior3k, sorry, I have to use reduce to re-implement interpose
05:37	ior3k	oops, sorry about that then
05:44	seriously_random	ior3k, any idea where the mistake might be: http://pastebin.com/vJLvabyg ?
05:44	Cr8	seriously_random: I have a working something-magical
05:45	Cr8	but i'm a bit lost as to -why- you want to do this =P
05:45	seriously_random	mooc, internet points
05:46	seriously_random	it is possible to pass anonymous fn to reduce, right?
05:46	Cr8	yes
05:46	ior3k	seriously_random: fn should take 2 arguments
05:46	Cr8	I cheated with metadata =P
05:47	ior3k	seriously_random: btw, it's possible to do that with less code, even using reduce
05:48	seriously_random	ior3k, ok.
05:49	hyPiRion	That's like
05:50	hyPiRion	,(let [z 4 a-seq [1 2 3]] (reduce #(conj %1 %2 z) [] a-seq)) ; ?
05:50	clojurebot	[1 4 2 4 3 ...]
06:07	seriously_random	why does this happen: http://pastebin.com/1exF9xHM
06:11	ior3k	seriously_random: you're lost in a web of conjs. Try approaching the problem methodically. You already have the magic fn. Did you test it?
06:11	ior3k	just the magic fn, not the entire thing
06:12	seriously_random	ior3k, (magic 1 :c) ;=> (1 :c)
06:13	ior3k	seriously_random: are you sure that fulfills the contract required by reduce?
06:14	seriously_random	ior3k, not then it reaches the last element
06:18	seriously_random	ior3k, uhh. discard the last message
06:18	ior3k	seriously_random: I think there are more problems than that one.
06:21	seriously_random	ior3k, what is 'a-what' in "(fn [a-what x] (conj (magic x z) a-what))". Is it previous sequence?
06:24	ior3k	seriously_random: it's the accumulator. It can be a) whatever fn returns, or b) the initial value passed to reduce, or c) the first argument of the collection passed to reduce
06:28	Cr8	(reduce f init [a b c d]) gives the same result as (f (f (f (f (f init) a) b) c) d)
06:29	Cr8	f is called with two args: the thing it returned the last time it was called, and the next element in the collection, until the collection is exhausted, and then reduce just returns the current value of the accumulator
06:31	Cr8	,(reduce (fn [acc el] (if (odd? el) (inc acc) acc)) 0 [1 2 1 2 3 3 4])
06:32	clojurebot	4
06:32	Cr8	^- counted the number of odd numbers in that coll
06:35	seriously_random	anon functions and reduce is a confusing mix
06:36	seriously_random	nested one level too deep: http://pastebin.com/DZCzgrCq
06:38	Cr8	tip: conj'ing onto a vector puts stuff on the end
06:39	Cr8	,(conj '(1 2) 3)
06:39	clojurebot	(3 1 2)
06:39	Cr8	,(conj [1 2] 3)
06:39	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
06:40	seriously_random	Cr8, I know. I will put another reduce inside the reduce! :)
06:43	Cr8	tip: What should I get if I interpose something into a sequence that only has one element?
06:44	rurumate	I'm having trouble doing a "prepared insert" in cassaforte. Unprepared version works fine, but when I wrap with client/prepared and values, I get 'InvalidQueryException: Unknown identifier values'
06:44	seriously_random	Cr8, preferably the one element itself
06:44	Cr8	seriously_random: yep
06:44	Cr8	,(interpose :a [1])
06:44	clojurebot	(1)
06:44	Cr8	,(interpose :a [1 2])
06:44	clojurebot	(1 :a 2)
06:46	seriously_random	Cr8, the problem is - isn't the a-seq outside the scope of anonymous fn? How to tell it if we are at the last element?
06:46	Cr8	you can't, meaning so you can't add element, separator for each element
06:46	Cr8	you can add separator, element though
06:47	Cr8	and start with the accumulator not being the empty list, but the first element of the input coll (and then feed reduce, not the input coll but (rest coll))
06:47	Cr8	that is, the first element in a list, not bare, of course
06:47	rurumate	I made a paste out of it, see https://www.refheap.com/22141
06:49	seriously_random	Cr8, that make sense.
06:50	Cr8	(reduce f init []) will always return init, f never gets called if the input collection is empty
06:51	Cr8	,(reduce (fn [a x] (throw "explode")) 0 [])
06:51	clojurebot	0
06:51	Cr8	,(reduce (fn [a x] (throw "explode")) 0 [1])
06:51	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Throwable>
06:51	Cr8	turns out you can't just throw a string, but it had the desired effect
06:54	Cr8	rurumate: sorry, looks like noone that uses it or works on it is around atm, but they have a mailing list https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/clojure-cassandra
06:54	Cr8	might try there
06:55	rurumate	Cr8: alright, thanks
07:08	seriously_random	Cr8, http://pastebin.com/ajpLnDf5
07:09	Cr8	this looks over complicated
07:10	Cr8	but
07:10	Cr8	it does work :)
07:11	seriously_random	Cr8, I get it. start with first element, and (rest seq). conj 'x' + elem.
07:12	Cr8	yep
07:14	Cr8	https://www.refheap.com/22142 is mine if you want to take a look (if you don't, don't click!)
07:15	seriously_random	two don'ts, must click
07:15	Cr8	ha
07:17	ior3k	Cr8: just an FYI, conj can take more than one argument
07:17	Cr8	ah, convenient
07:18	dsrx	,(conj '() 1 2 3 4)
07:18	clojurebot	(4 3 2 1)
07:18	dsrx	,(apply conj ['() 1 2 3 4])
07:18	clojurebot	(4 3 2 1)
07:19	Cr8	edited
07:19	dsrx	,(#(apply (partial conj '())) [1 2 3 4])
07:19	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: sandbox/eval73/fn--74>
07:19	dsrx	,(#(apply (partial conj '()) %) [1 2 3 4])
07:19	clojurebot	(4 3 2 1)
07:20	Cr8	there's into if you want to conj the contents of a collection into something
07:20	Cr8	,(into #{1 4 3 8} [4 5 6])
07:20	clojurebot	#{1 3 4 5 6 ...}
07:21	Cr8	which will, if it can, use transients inside
07:21	Cr8	but otherwise is just (reduce conj thing coll)
07:23	ior3k	Cr8: here's my very slightly different take https://www.refheap.com/22143. I enjoy seeing the different perspectives people bring to the table
07:24	Cr8	that's similar to the standard (lazy) interpose
07:24	Cr8	which drops the first element of (interleave)'ing it with an infinite sequence of the separator
07:25	ior3k	ah, nice
07:25	Cr8	(defn interpose [sep coll] (drop 1 (interleave (repeat sep) coll)))
07:25	Cr8	is the stdlib interpose
07:27	ior3k	nice, I didn't know about drop. Still finding my way around clojure
07:27	Cr8	(drop 3 coll) is just (rest (rest (rest coll)))
07:28	Cr8	drop is defined in terms of rest
07:28	dsrx	implementing interpose is simple once you know about interleave :)
07:28	Cr8	ior3k: if you're at a repl (and have made sure to (use 'clojure.repl), you can (source some-fn) to print its source
07:29	Cr8	depending on your editor, there may also be a hotkey to jump to the definition of the fn named under your cursor, which should work fine on the core library
07:30	ior3k	I'm still setting up clojure on emacs, but I was using tryclojure to test this
07:30	ior3k	lots of new stuff. Head spinning
07:31	cYmen	Is there some sort of system behind what is a [:hr] and what is a (submit-button) in hiccup? I just accidenttally wrote [:form-to ...] worked but gave some strange results.
07:32	Cr8	cYmen: [:foo] should always spit out a <foo> tag, which means you probably got a <form-to> instead of a from, which is probably not what you wanted
07:32	Cr8	*a form
07:33	Cr8	(submit-button "foo") is just a helper that spits out [:input {:type "submit" :value "foo"}] for you (which would emit <input type="submit" value="foo"/>)
07:34	Cr8	https://github.com/weavejester/hiccup/blob/9d55fddf53ab32cc7761a32068dcb0364c99c714/src/hiccup/form.clj#L113-L116
07:34	cYmen	Cr8: Thanks for the explanation!
07:35	Cr8	the general rule is [:foo] becomes <foo/>, [:foo {:bar "baz"}], become <foo bar="baz"/>, and [:foo [:bar]] becomes <foo><bar/></foo>
07:35	Cr8	the attribute map is optional
07:35	Cr8	but if given always has to be the second element
07:35	Cr8	otherwise any elements inside a thing just become subtags
07:37	broquaint	Is it possible to load deps in nrepl that were added since it has been launched? e.g nrepl-jack-in, add random.lib project.clj, lein deps, (use 'random.lib)
07:38	broquaint	I guess that would involve extending the classpath somehow but I'm not sure where to begin on that.
07:38	Cr8	broquaint: https://github.com/pallet/alembic does that sort of thing
07:38	Cr8	and packages it up all nicely
07:38	broquaint	Magic, thanks, Cr8!
07:39	Cr8	if you take the suggestion in the README and stick it in your lein profiles.clj it'll be in all your REPLs
07:39	Cr8	which is super hadny
07:39	Cr8	*hadny
07:39	Cr8	can't type
07:39	clojurebot	Excuse me?
07:41	cYmen	Hm...when I hit the submit button on this thing I just get a blank "Not found" page. What does that mean?
07:42	broquaint	Cr8: I shall take that suggestion :)
08:06	cYmen	Hm..how do I find out what the latest version of org.xerial/sqlite-jdbc is? mvnrepository.com?
08:31	augustl	is there a function to safely (as in, don't execute code) read Clojure data from an InputStream?
08:35	ddellacosta	augustl: what is "Clojure data?" EDN?
08:36	augustl	ddellacosta: for now, a file with a clojure map in it
08:37	ddellacosta	augustl: ah, so you just want to read it in? Try slurp
08:37	ddellacosta	augustl: also checkout the clojure.java.io namespace
08:37	augustl	slurp just gives me a string
08:38	ddellacosta	augustl: from there you can call read-string on it
08:39	Raynes	Well, don't do that.
08:39	Raynes	Use clojure.edn
08:39	ddellacosta	augustl: listen to Raynes
08:39	ddellacosta	read-string is not safe, sorry, my bad...
08:39	Raynes	read-string would accomplish the same thing, but indeed, is not quite as safe/
08:39	Raynes	Which probably doesn't matter for augustl's use-case, but is good to keep in mind!
08:40	augustl	read string fires missiles? :)
08:40	augustl	read-string*
08:40	seriously_random	(cond (one) (action1) (two) (action2) :else (do nothing) <-- else can't be written so that nothing will be done?
08:40	Raynes	augustl: http://www.learningclojure.com/2013/02/clojures-reader-is-unsafe.html
08:41	ddellacosta	augustl: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/read
08:41	Raynes	seriously_random: Don't write :else
08:41	Raynes	:)
08:41	Raynes	Nothing will be done if it does not exist.
08:41	seriously_random	right, thanks
08:41	ddellacosta	Raynes: sick?
08:41	Raynes	Significantly.
08:42	Raynes	:p
08:42	ddellacosta	Raynes: sorry to hear it. :-(
08:42	ddellacosta	Raynes: feel better!
08:42	Raynes	I'm the whiniest person you'll ever meet when I have a cold.
08:43	ddellacosta	Raynes: man, I know...I turn into a whiny baby and could possibly rival you
08:43	Raynes	:p
08:43	ddellacosta	in any case, being sick is no fun. Hope you get well soon!
08:43	Raynes	Tganks!
08:43	Raynes	Thanks*
08:48	seriously_random	Why the function is accumulating nil suddenly: http://pastebin.com/0AAsqV6i
08:52	hyPiRion	seriously_random: what does this expression return? (cond (> 2 3) (assoc [2 7] 0 3) (< 7 3) (assoc [2 7] 1 3))
08:52	seriously_random	hyPiRion, forgot :else acc. Never mind
08:52	hyPiRion	:)
09:32	seriously_random	"sequencify" int, e.g. 6 => (6)
09:33	hyPiRion	(doc list)
09:33	clojurebot	"([& items]); Creates a new list containing the items."
09:41	dotemacs	Hi, I've been trying to do the following: take a string and turn it into a method that I call on an object instance. So spoke to some people and they pointed me at 'reflection'. Looked at it and I can see how to get all the method names of an instance, but I'm unsure on how to invoke a method, dynamically, using reflection. Sort of (doseq [n ["Title"
09:41	dotemacs	"Author"]] ((str ".get" n) someInstance)). Any tips ? Thanks
09:45	BobSchack	dotemacs you're trying to call a java object correct?
09:45	dotemacs	BobSchack: yes, thats correct
09:49	BobSchack	wells there's the clojure library for reflection (http://clojure.github.io/clojure/clojure.reflect-api.html) or you can use Java relection api.
09:51	BobSchack	You could use reify to bring the java object into clojure
09:53	dotemacs	BobSchack: what I'm after is an example of how to do this: take a string and turn it into a method call. If you have an example of it or can share an example of it, I would be very grateful, thanks
09:57	BobSchack	dotemacs I haven't used the reflection utilities I just know of them, sorry. You can try the mailing list.
09:57	dotemacs	BobSchack: np, thanks :)
09:58	BobSchack	what are you trying to do that you need to turn a string into a java method?
09:58	dotemacs	BobSchack: theres an instance that has many 'getX' methods
09:59	dotemacs	BobSchack: so instead of calling each one of the individually, I'd like to have a way to pass in a vector with all the desired method names and call them on an instance
10:00	dotemacs	BobSchack: instead of doing: .getTitle, .getAuthor, .get...
10:00	BobSchack	so you're trying to use the lookup interface on the object instead of doing .getX
10:00	dotemacs	i'd like to pass in ["author", "title"...] to a function that will construct methods and call them based on the vector contents
10:01	ddellacosta	dotemacs: I assume you already have a class in existence?
10:01	esancho	would java.beans.Introspector help?
10:01	dotemacs	ddellacosta: yes
10:02	dotemacs	esancho: let me have a look
10:02	ddellacosta	dotemacs: sorry, you're trying to declare methods or figure out what methods already exist so you can call them?
10:03	dotemacs	ddellacosta: i just want to call them, i know which methods already exist
10:03	hyPiRion	ddellacosta: he's trying to convert "foo" to e.g. #(.getFoo %)
10:03	BobSchack	would the bean function work for this? (http://clojure.org/java_interop#Java Interop-The Dot special form-(bean obj))
10:03	ddellacosta	dotemacs: you could do it pretty trivially with a macro I expect
10:04	ddellacosta	dotemacs: `(~(str ".get" method-name) ...) kinda thing, obviously that's pretty rough...
10:05	ddellacosta	assuming you can use macros with Java interop, which I don't actually know for sure...
10:05	dotemacs	ddellacosta: true and i have something like that going, but i've already asked about this and was advised that using reflection would be better way to approach it. So what i'm asking is: what is that way of using reflection ?
10:05	hyPiRion	,(import 'clojure.lang.Reflector)
10:05	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Reflector
10:05	ddellacosta	dotemacs: ah, gotcha, sorry--
10:05	hyPiRion	(Reflector/invokeInstanceMethod "hello" "substring" (into-array [0 2]))
10:05	hyPiRion	gah
10:05	hyPiRion	,(Reflector/invokeInstanceMethod "hello" "substring" (into-array [0 2]))
10:05	clojurebot	"he"
10:06	dotemacs	cool, thank you all :)
10:06	ddellacosta	hyPiRion: very cool...didn't know about that!
10:15	Raynes	hyPiRion: `(~(str ".get" method-name) ...) <-- you'd need to symbolize the string.
10:18	hyPiRion	Raynes: were you talking to ddellacosta maybe?
10:19	Raynes	hyPiRion: Aye, your nicks are both colored the same.
10:19	ddellacosta	Raynes: yeah, I realized that afterwards, it was pretty loose...
10:20	ddellacosta	resolve too I guess...
10:20	ddellacosta	and eval too I gues
10:30	dotemacs	Raynes: you would need to smybolise the string if it was a symbol, but this is method which is to be invoked on a instance...
10:31	Raynes	&`(~(str ".get" "FooBar") ...)
10:31	lazybot	⇒ (".getFooBar" ...)
10:31	Raynes	dotemacs: ^ You can't call strings
10:32	hyPiRion	,(-> '(.isEmpty """) first class)
10:32	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading string>
10:32	hyPiRion	,(-> '(.isEmpty "") first class)
10:32	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Symbol
11:51	shep-home	If I do a `send` inside an agent, Clojure will wait until after the agent is changed to act on that send. Is there anything similar for channels with core.async?
11:52	shep-home	Asking in a different form, if I put something into a channel, is that tend to be more "pure" or more "side effect"?
11:58	pcn	Hi everyone!
12:02	pcn	I've got a test service that will read lines from a socket, and write them to channels.
12:02	pcn	If I pass a small but significant number of messages, somewhere between 1 and 10000, it seems like the jvm goes crazy doing work.
12:03	pcn	The socket is handled by a slightly changed version of server-socket
12:04	pcn	I suspect that the listening function is spending a lot of time looping and nooping, but I don't understand why.
12:04	pcn	At https://github.com/pcn/carbon-relaj/blob/master/src/carbon_relaj/core.clj#L160 I had to put the check for nil? or else that loop would feed massive quantities of garbage to the channel.
12:04	pcn	By garbage I mean nil
12:12	wink	anyone from the US here? Is Dec 24th in any way special regarding postal shipping, opening hours? From my restricted knowledge you only remotely call that christmas, right? :)
12:14	dubsg	wink: Yeah typically stores are open for shopping limited hours on the 24th (closing a bit early often)
12:15	dubsg	... and yes, USPS mail is delivered on the 24th ;)
12:15	wink	dubsg: ok, thanks. because here in Germany (as you may or may not know) the actual celebrations are on the eve od 24th, so most stuff shuts down at noon, or doesn't even open (not shops. but anything public)
12:30	devn	Hello all
12:32	BobSchack	hey devn
12:48	stompyj	is (:require [blah] :refer :all) generally preferred over (:use blah) these days?
12:48	Bronsa	yes
12:48	hyPiRion	yes, although it is (:require [blah :refer :all])
12:49	stompyj	Bronsa: hyPiRion : thanks!
12:51	whilo	is it possible to have a different version of the closure library in a cljs project? i am using ol3, which seems to use closure trunk (non-released :-/)
12:52	whilo	for reference https://github.com/openlayers/ol3
13:14	TimMc	technomancy: OK, I think I might be coming around to your point of view on if/when.
13:15	hyPiRion	(inc TimMc)
13:15	lazybot	⇒ 54
13:15	hyPiRion	we got cookies for you
13:15	TimMc	technomancy: However, my answer is still to never use one-armed if, and use an explicit nil branch.
13:16	zerokarmaleft	TimMc: curious, is there a conversation in the logs about that?
13:16	TimMc	Oh my god yeah.
13:16	TimMc	Search for kibit and one-armed if.
13:17	hyPiRion	It's one of the more frequently discussed bikesheds here
13:17	hyPiRion	regardless of kibit, even
13:18	zerokarmaleft	hyPiRion: I'm a bit of a channel troll, so I miss a bunch >.>
13:18	hyPiRion	TimMc: is (and pred expr) the same as (if pref expr) =
13:18	hyPiRion	*?
13:18	clojurebot	* is just for when you are lazy and sloppy
13:19	TimMc	I'm just going to do it on this one project and see how it feels.
13:47	pcn	TimMc it'll feel dirty, and you'll stop doing it and hope no-one you know sees you doing it.
14:05	gfredericks	,(let [>.> :-D] >.>)
14:05	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassFormatError: Illegal field name "_GT_._GT_" in class sandbox$eval25, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
14:05	gfredericks	,(let [o_O :-D] o_O)
14:05	clojurebot	:-D
14:14	mocker	Trying to follow this http://j.mp/1gSqXzZ guide and think I'm running into a problem with it not being compatible with newer clojure. Mainly getting errors about clojure.contrib.java-utils and as-properties
14:17	mocker	Anyone know if there is something to replace as-properties?
14:19	rurumate	emacs here, why is [C Right] not working over ssh?
14:21	gfredericks	mocker: what does it do?
14:23	mocker	gfredericks: Complains about missing java_utils, and if I comment that out complains about not being able to resolve symbol as-properties
14:25	gfredericks	mocker: oh I see
14:25	akhudek	mocker: there is http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go, but it doesn't list the properties library sadly
14:26	gfredericks	mocker: so I don't know that there's a replacement for the java-utils contrib namespace; you can either try to get it working with an old contrib, or try to reproduce the functionality yourself
14:26	mocker	Ok, so I'll probably have to figure out how to rework what he was doing there.
14:26	gfredericks	might well be that pasting the code from java-utils would just work
14:26	gfredericks	mocker: undoubtedly he was depending on the clojure-contrib jar which you probably don't have yet
14:26	mocker	But at least I'm on the right track, that stuff isn't around anymore. :)
14:27	akhudek	oh wow, today I learned that 'concat' can generate stack overflows
14:27	gfredericks	akhudek: totes
14:27	gfredericks	that's one of the top three subtle dangers of lazy seqs
14:28	hiredman	/win 15
14:28	gfredericks	clojurebot: win is 15
14:28	clojurebot	Alles klar
14:29	gfredericks	akhudek: I think 95% of the time that concat is overflowing your stack it can be drop-in-replaced by into
14:29	akhudek	gfredericks: yep, I just did exactly that
14:30	gfredericks	which can potentially result in ordering differences related to seqs vs vectors
14:39	hyPiRion	(defn concatv [& colls] (reduce into [] colls))
14:40	gfredericks	(def concatv (comp (partial reduce into []) list))
14:41	gfredericks	TimMc: I just realized that I think ->/->> could have been rewritten to be recursive from the other end and that would've solved the problems
14:45	gfredericks	except the one problem of macroexpand-1 not being instructive
14:47	hyPiRion	Is it possible to force an inner macro expansion before an outer one acts? E.g. expand ->> before -> in `(-> 10 (->> a b c))`
14:47	gfredericks	force who to do it?
14:47	gfredericks	and from where?
14:47	clojurebot	I don't understand.
14:48	gfredericks	clojurebot: that's okay
14:48	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
14:48	hyPiRion	the reader, I guess. From a repl or when loading code
14:48	gfredericks	what? maybe a use case would help
14:48	rurumate	,((fn [x] (mod x (nth (iterate #(* 2 %) 1) 16))) 18761459871)
14:48	clojurebot	10399
14:49	Bronsa	hyPiRion: why not simply calling macroexpand-1 on & body from the macro?
14:50	hyPiRion	gfredericks: I want `(->> (+ a b) (-> [a b] fn))` to turn into `(fn [a b] (+ a b))`
14:50	octe	if you have a group of functions operating on for example a connection, is the with-connection from contrib.sql idiomatic clojure?
14:51	whomp	how do i iterate over a rectangle in a 2D vector?
14:51	gfredericks	hyPiRion: that makes you a weirdo, right?
14:51	whomp	or rather, how can i write a function that returns this rectangle?
14:52	hyPiRion	Bronsa: I don't want to redefine -> and ->> :p
14:53	gfredericks	whomp: you want some subsection of it? and is this a nested clojure vector in particular?
14:54	Bronsa	hyPiRion: definitely not possibile to do in the reader btw
14:54	whomp	gfredericks: yeah, i'm writing a program that verifies that a sudoku solution is valid. so it takes a 9x9 2D vector, and i want to process 3x3 grids in it
14:55	hyPiRion	gfredericks: that makes me able to get closures in Swearjure
14:55	gfredericks	whomp: you could use subvec twice
14:55	Bronsa	hyPiRion: assuming we are talking hypothetically, tools.analyzer's macroexpand-1 is a dynamic var -- just rebind it to a macroexpander that expands the macro args before the macro && emit-form to get the macroexpanded form :P
14:55	gfredericks	hyPiRion: oh I see this is serious then
14:56	hyPiRion	Bronsa: Well, that sounds like something which won't break existing code :p I guess if I do it after all other code is loaded
14:58	gfredericks	hyPiRion: did you see the description of the swearjure talk?
14:58	gfredericks	I'm curious who wrote it
14:58	gfredericks	"Gary Fredericks shows some tricks for getting the most out of Clojure obfuscated code."
15:00	hyPiRion	gfredericks: not sure who wrote it, but yeah, I noticed
15:00	hyPiRion	It should've said "shows that elegant programs doesn't need alphanums"
15:00	gfredericks	it's not as ridiculous as I thought it was
15:01	whomp	gfredericks: something like this? (flatten (map #(subvec % (* x 3) (+ (* x 3) 3)) (subvec square (* y 3) (+ (* y 3) 3)) )
15:02	gfredericks	whomp: yep
15:02	gfredericks	flatten could be (apply concat ...)
15:02	rhg135	hello ppl, so close but no dice, https://www.refheap.com/22138 seems to close the client socket after the first reply now
15:02	rhg135	but i can't see why
15:03	whomp	as someone new to the language, that makes me sad when i can write arr[(y3)...(y3+3)].map{\|row\| row[(x3)...(x3+3)]}
15:03	whomp	in ruby
15:03	rhg135	unless spit is closing the stream or similar
15:03	rhg135	but that's not in the docs afaict
15:04	hyPiRion	rhg135: that's in the docs, I think
15:04	hyPiRion	(doc spit)
15:04	clojurebot	"([f content & options]); Opposite of slurp. Opens f with writer, writes content, then closes f. Options passed to clojure.java.io/writer."
15:04	rhg135	ah
15:04	rhg135	but i don't open my writer in spit
15:05	rhg135	but it still closes it?
15:05	hyPiRion	yeah, with-open makes that happen
15:05	TEttinger	hyPiRion, were you here for my elegant "returns true" in swearjure? ##(#(% '☃) #(= % '☃))
15:05	lazybot	⇒ true
15:05	rhg135	so is there a way to prevent that?
15:06	gfredericks	whomp: those two versions seem to have a pretty similar complexity level to me...is there some part in particular that bothers you?
15:07	TEttinger	,(#(% :☃) #(= % :☃)) ; symbols work too, neat
15:07	clojurebot	true
15:07	hyPiRion	rhg135: Well, I would guess you could try to replace spit with .write, no?
15:07	whomp	well the operators are annoying, but you're right i suppose
15:07	whomp	thanks for the help
15:07	rhg135	idk i think writer works on ints
15:07	rhg135	.write*
15:08	rhg135	or chars not sure
15:08	hyPiRion	well, wrap it in a string.
15:08	rhg135	but i thought spit might work
15:08	hyPiRion	,(.write out (str 42))
15:08	clojurebot	42
15:08	rhg135	hmm
15:09	hyPiRion	,(.write out 42)
15:09	clojurebot	*
15:09	hyPiRion	,(.write out \*)
15:09	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: write for class java.io.StringWriter>
15:09	rhg135	didn't know write worked on strings
15:10	pyrtsa	,(.write out (int \*))
15:10	clojurebot	*
15:10	rhg135	ic
15:10	hyPiRion	rhg135: well, yeah, be a bit careful. That probably only works on writers, not streams.
15:10	rhg135	i'm going to try that
15:10	rhg135	it's a writer
15:10	TEttinger	,(.write out (int \☃))
15:10	clojurebot	?
15:10	hyPiRion	ah, then I guess you're very good
15:11	TEttinger	##(.write out (int \☃))
15:11	lazybot	⇒ ☃nil
15:11	rhg135	clojure.java.io/writer returns a writere no?
15:11	justin_smith	a stringwriter is not a string though - it is a subclass of java.io.Writer
15:11	TEttinger	wow it handles unicode even
15:11	hyPiRion	rhg135: yeah, that returns a writer
15:11	rhg135	ok
15:11	rhg135	TEttinger, java is utf16
15:11	rhg135	i think
15:12	TEttinger	yeah, but I didn't know if file IO was
15:12	justin_smith	I think you can set the encoding of a file or even a string
15:12	TEttinger	or if it was coercing the (int \*) to a byte
15:12	rhg135	ya
15:12	justin_smith	but utf16 is the internal representation
15:12	rhg135	:encoding is an option to writer
15:12	hyPiRion	TEttinger: writers and readers have encodings attached
15:25	rhg135	slightly better
15:25	rhg135	now i get an infinite loop after the first replies :\
15:26	rhg135	by that i mean it keeps sending the same reply
15:26	justin_smith	rhg135: sounds like a tracing lib would help you
15:26	rhg135	hmm
15:26	rhg135	i'll go set it up
15:27	justin_smith	https://github.com/clojure/tools.trace if you get a good log of what a function is receiving as args and what it is returning, that makes debugging much easier
15:27	justin_smith	ie. you can make a unit test by passing an arg that is representative of the real calls, and verify it outputs something reasonable (which if it is looping it clearly is not)
15:28	rhg135	sounds simple
15:28	justin_smith	well, it can be if you make the core of your logic purely functional
15:28	justin_smith	or as close to it as you can get away with
15:29	justin_smith	it is my defacto standard for debuggable designs
15:29	rhg135	mine too
15:29	rhg135	my core is semi-functional
15:29	rhg135	just that darn login!
15:30	SegFaultAX	IO at the edges is the ideal.
15:30	rhg135	i do most io in -main
15:30	justin_smith	rhg135: another option is to make an atom of a vector, and conj the args / return value on in each run
15:30	justin_smith	then use the repl to play with the data in the atom
15:30	rhg135	hmm
15:31	rhg135	i think tools.trace sounds better
15:31	justin_smith	yeah, it depends, sometimes being able to experiment in a repl is a real bonux
15:31	justin_smith	but trace is more clean
15:31	justin_smith	I have tools.trace in my dev profile so I can always trace things in the repl
15:32	justin_smith	that and criterium for optimizing stuff interactively
15:32	SegFaultAX	justin_smith: You know what would be kinda neat?
15:32	justin_smith	SegFaultAX: what's that?
15:33	SegFaultAX	justin_smith: Conjing maps into that vector, where each map has 3 keys :args, :result, and :replay where replay is a nullary closure that will re-run that invocation.
15:33	justin_smith	oh, that sounds nice
15:33	justin_smith	not hard to do at all
15:33	SegFaultAX	Nope
15:33	justin_smith	also include a key for the function itself while you are at it :)
15:33	justin_smith	and for the string / name
15:34	justin_smith	to make filtering easy if you are tracing a shitload of stuff :)
15:34	justin_smith	and then maybe some functions to prune / trim the atom when it starts getting huge
15:34	rhg135	sounds like a good idea
15:34	justin_smith	yeah
15:34	justin_smith	it does
15:34	SegFaultAX	core.cache can help you there.
15:34	justin_smith	and with functional programming all that stuff is pretty straightforward
15:34	justin_smith	SegFaultAX: yeah, exactly what I was thinking!
15:35	justin_smith	the gotchas would be things like input streams / output streams
15:35	justin_smith	that are inherently stateful (they are empty / unwritable when the other end closes)
15:36	justin_smith	I dealt with this in my groundhog ring debugging lib by cloning the input stream (which works when input stream is a finite thing, not an indefinite interactive connection)
15:39	rhg135	how do you use trace?
15:40	rhg135	trace itself doesn't trace m ydispatch function
15:40	justin_smith	https://github.com/clojure/tools.trace has a few examples
15:40	justin_smith	you can trace the whole ns
15:40	rhg135	o yeah
15:41	justin_smith	just calling trace/trace traces one invocation
15:42	rhg135	now this is a dafuq moment
15:43	rhg135	trace-ns show all calls but those after the client connects
15:43	justin_smith	weird!
15:43	justin_smith	maybe because of threading the output is going somewhere different
15:43	justin_smith	are you doing this within emacs?
15:44	rhg135	no
15:44	rhg135	within vim
15:44	rhg135	but im at the repl
15:45	justin_smith	OK, I meant is the repl inside your editor, because if so some output from threads doesn't go into the repl window
15:45	justin_smith	because out is a dynamic var
15:45	rhg135	also it suddenly stopped sending any response
15:45	justin_smith	oh weird
15:45	rhg135	i hate threading
15:45	justin_smith	sounds like the "putting things in an atom" method may help you
15:46	justin_smith	atoms are meant to help with data across threads after all
15:46	rhg135	yes, but it's a java socket
15:46	rhg135	already mutable
15:47	rhg135	tbh i'm not too sure about java multi-threaded
15:48	justin_smith	try this: (def debug (atom [])) ... (defn some-fn [a b c] (let [... result (...)] ... (swap! debug conj {:time (java.util.Date.) :args [a b c] :result result} result)))
15:48	hiredman	I am in the market for some kind of server management / deployment thing, specifically I want to write a program that will spin on ec2 nodes, run some benchmarks, collect results, and shut it all down, I really like pallets model, but hate the dependency hell of pallet, and the fact that the crates are hit or miss about working with a current version of pallet
15:48	hiredman	someone sell me on something else please
15:49	justin_smith	rhg135: the idea being that some-fn already exists, and we are adding in that swap! statement, of course
15:49	rhg135	ya
15:49	justin_smith	then from the repl you can inspect debug
15:49	rhg135	ok
15:50	rhg135	i have a feeling this is a threading issue
15:50	justin_smith	of course
15:50	justin_smith	but this way you can see where the issue is
15:50	justin_smith	what is making it happen
15:50	rhg135	ok
15:50	rhg135	imma add it in
15:50	justin_smith	and clojure has very nice facilities for using threading sanely
15:51	rhg135	ya...
15:51	rhg135	wish clojure socket's existed
15:53	rhg135	erm
15:54	rhg135	my dispatch function, which i think is the problem, takes a lazy sequence
15:54	justin_smith	well, then don't log the whole lazy seq, just the part it uses?
15:54	justin_smith	s/log/store as appropriate
15:55	rhg135	the seq is a sequence of the maps the client sends so
15:55	rhg135	i doubt it's that long
15:56	justin_smith	OK
15:58	rhg135	DAFUQ?!?
15:58	rhg135	debug is empty while it's looping
15:59	rhg135	so i guess that function never returns
16:00	pcn	rhg135: doall to the rescue?
16:02	rhg135	idk
16:02	rhg135	it should be evaluated by the doseq
16:04	pcn	Could be. Try doall and see if the behaviour changes. Whatever you're doing could be lazier than you realize.
16:07	justin_smith	rhg135: so we've learned something - there is a stall before the function exits
16:07	justin_smith	rhg135: now you can try tracing at function entry, and then use a binary search to see which line hangs
16:15	rhg135	ah
16:15	rhg135	k
16:16	justin_smith	that is, assuming the function is entered!
16:16	justin_smith	but tracing and/or debug atom conjing should help with that too
16:18	dotemacs	Hello, a question regarding testing. Would you test functions that are private, as in defined as 'defn-' ? Sort of like the way you wouldn't test private methods in object oriented langs? Thanks
16:18	justin_smith	often I think privacy itself is an OO thing
16:19	justin_smith	but this is a style argument of course
16:19	justin_smith	I test things if I want to be sure that a change in my code will not break them
16:19	justin_smith	or if I want to narrow down how they are breaking by asserting what they should be asserting
16:20	justin_smith	but I am pretty pragmatic about testing and do not use it in a rigorous way
16:20	justin_smith	ymmv
16:20	dotemacs	justin_smith: right, thanks for that
16:21	magnars	I want a pluggable backend, so I'm passing in a map of partially applied functions. But this creates some odd-looking code: ((:get-account storage) account-id) ... the double starting parens triggers my spider sense. Any thoughts?
16:22	justin_smith	magnars: this is what protocols and multimethods are for
16:22	justin_smith	but double parens are perfectly cromulent, they just mean you are calling a function to get another one back
16:22	justin_smith	which means functional programming in action, right?
16:23	justin_smith	magnars: protocols in particular are exactly designed for the situation where a backend is pluggable but should define some functions you can look up
16:24	magnars	I'll look into those. Never had a reason to before, so sounds like a good excuse to learn a little. Thanks :)
16:25	justin_smith	one tricky thing is that defmethod / defprotocol do annoying things in long lived repls
16:25	magnars	yeah, I've got bitten by that one a few times with multimethods :P
16:25	justin_smith	until you get their design perfected, you will find yourself having to restart in order to get sane behavior
16:25	justin_smith	but imho protocols are worth it
16:25	justin_smith	I dunno about multimethods though
16:27	anagrius	Is ritz-nrepl my best bet for debugging? It doesn't seem to work with Cider, would I have to downgrade to a compatible cider/nrepl.el version?
16:27	magnars	justin_smith: Sounds like a good excuse to grab a book of dead trees and step away from the computer to read up. Thanks.
16:27	justin_smith	anagrius: the design of ritz baffled me when I tried to look at the code, and I never found a good workflow for using it. some people have found it useful though.
16:28	justin_smith	magnars: np
16:28	anagrius	We just have a huge legacy program that is hard to reason about. A stepping debugger could really help us out.
16:29	scottj	anagrius: yes, yes, and even then it might not work for you.
16:29	anagrius	scottj: how so?
16:29	justin_smith	anagrius: from what I could figure out, ritz got weird and complicated because jvm debugging is best done via a second jvm that connects to the dt-socket and takes control, and ritz tries to act like common lisp where you stop and debug in the same image, which is weird and broken in clojure because threads
16:30	justin_smith	stepping debugging gets a little weird when you have concurrency
16:30	justin_smith	do you step parallel threads? How do you account for them? etc.
16:30	scottj	anagrius: even with a compatible nrepl.el there have been reports of it not working
16:31	anagrius	scottj: shame..
16:32	justin_smith	CDT can set breakpoints and allows you to investigate things at a breakpoint then resume
16:32	anagrius	I have found watches in LightTable really useful, but unfortunately nothing like it in emacs.
16:32	justin_smith	you can construct stepping or something like it out of this
16:32	justin_smith	CDT is much simpler than ritz
16:32	anagrius	justin_smith: I would have to check that out, thanks
16:33	justin_smith	also there is schmetterling which I helped design, which sues cdt and gives a webapp based UI
16:33	justin_smith	for looking at stacktraces / locals when your app stops
16:34	justin_smith	the usage is that you set your jvm opts for the debugging socket to be open, then you can run schmetterling as a seperate app, tell it to connect to your socket, and then schmetterling pops up a stack in your browser when an exception is thrown in the target vm
16:34	justin_smith	it kind of works
16:34	justin_smith	but is not a normal debugger at all
16:35	justin_smith	there is also tools.trace for figuring out how / when your code is called without stepping
16:35	justin_smith	I often miss stepping myself, but I don't think anyone has a simple workflow for that in jcm clojure yet
16:37	justin_smith	*jvm clojure
16:38	rhg135	???????????????????????
16:39	rhg135	it's saying the lazy-seq has one map, but doseq is running infinitely
16:39	anagrius	justin_smith: I have tried schmetterling, but it kept getting ClassNotFound errors. So I ended up giving up
16:40	rhg135	and it's not able to print debug in the repl
16:40	rhg135	idk what it's blocking on tho
16:40	justin_smith	anagrius: yeah, that has to do with the classes for using the jdi, I have seen it too :(
16:41	justin_smith	rhg135: have you tried looking at the caller and seeing if it is stalling on something before even entering the function you are looking at?
16:41	justin_smith	rhg135: by any chance are you using a for or map on a lazy seq?
16:42	rhg135	well the inside of the function is conj'ing so i think it's called
16:42	rhg135	the loop too
16:42	rhg135	no, doseq
16:42	justin_smith	OK
16:42	rhg135	i learned that long ago lol
16:43	justin_smith	well then the print issue probably has to do with out being a dynamic binding
16:43	justin_smith	so who knows where the print output is going
16:43	justin_smith	you could use a proper logging lib
16:43	rhg135	i mean it's doseq'ing over a lazy-seq which is one item long
16:43	rhg135	but it runs indefinetely
16:44	justin_smith	have you tried establishing the smallest / simplest subset of your code that demonstrates the behavior?
16:44	rhg135	no
16:45	rhg135	but i have narrowed it down to the looop inside main
16:45	rhg135	which is 90% of the code :\
16:46	rhg135	mainly the dispatch form and it's args
16:49	justin_smith	well you could break it into smaller functional pieces, and verify each behaves as you expect
16:50	rhg135	i don't see how to split it more though
16:50	rhg135	it seems fairly small
16:51	anagrius	justin_smith: So.. would you use cdt through swank-clojure or?
16:53	justin_smith	no, cdt does not need swank
16:53	justin_smith	you run it through a second repl
16:53	justin_smith	and it connects to the dt-thread
16:53	anagrius	mkay
16:53	justin_smith	but you will likely see the same error, because it needs the same jdi socket
16:53	justin_smith	s/a second repl/a second jvm
16:58	rhg135	i'm basically trying to write an abstraction over the JIM protocol similar to ring
16:58	rhg135	as in handlers are functions taking a map returning a map
17:00	TimMc	hyPiRion: I think `and` and one-armed `if` have different false return values (false and nil).
17:01	hyPiRion	,[(and false (+ :two)) (if false (+ :three))]
17:02	clojurebot	[false nil]
17:02	hyPiRion	TimMc: you are correct, sir
17:03	gfredericks	is haskell's if mandatorily-two-armed?
17:04	technomancy	ocaml's is not
17:04	gfredericks	does ocaml have a null?
17:04	gfredericks	what does an OAI return when false?
17:05	technomancy	I think one-armed if probably requires both branches to return unit
17:05	technomancy	if is really rare in languages with p.roper pattern matching
17:07	hyPiRion	I'm not sure what proper pattern matching even is these days
17:07	gfredericks	P. Roper was a computer scientist who spent her entire career studying esoteric forms of pattern matching
17:07	bitemyapp	you don't really need "if" in Haskell.
17:08	gfredericks	case foo of True -> ...
17:08	Raynes	Because guards and pattern matching.
17:08	bitemyapp	pattern matching and guards are generally sufficient, and even then, you can work at a higher level than that.
17:08	Raynes	bitemyapp: h5
17:08	Raynes	hi5*
17:08	technomancy	there's only one if in grenchman that isn't used for side-effects, heh
17:08	bitemyapp	but 4rlz. unnecessary.
17:09	gfredericks	bitemyapp: does it require two arms?
17:09	bitemyapp	one nice thing about the non-strictness of Haskell is that you can implement your own short-circuiting boolean functions without macros or compiler support.
17:09	technomancy	gfredericks: anyway you don't need when/if to tell you when you have a side-effect in ML. you have unit for that.
17:09	technomancy	the compiler will yell at you
17:10	dnolen	bitemyapp: you can do that in Smalltalk too, in both cases catastrophically slow so it doesn't matter much
17:10	dnolen	except for cool points
17:10	technomancy	and only five ifs total
17:10	bitemyapp	dnolen: the point isn't that you'd write your own "if", it's that the language is capable of expressing a wider scope of things than strict languages without resorting to macros.
17:10	Raynes	technomancy: How dare you break lein new.
17:10	technomancy	the fact that the count is so high is probably indicative of my n00bness
17:11	Raynes	Don't know who you think you are, partner...
17:11	technomancy	Raynes: oh, I dare.
17:11	technomancy	I dare so hard.
17:11	bitemyapp	gfredericks: it's strictly if-then-else.
17:11	gfredericks	phew
17:11	bitemyapp	gfredericks: what would a one-arm boolean expression even mean in Haskell?
17:11	bitemyapp	serious question.
17:12	dnolen	bitemyapp: yes laziness delivers some kinds of flexibility w/ respect to control, but it's also doesn't give you enough control sometimes, see Oleg's Strange Loop Talk
17:12	dnolen	as usual "tradeoffs"
17:12	hyPiRion	One thing I don't like with the OCaml pattern matching is that you cannot match on locals
17:12	bitemyapp	you can't return two different types from a function in Haskell, it'll tell you to get fucked if you try.
17:12	gfredericks	bitemyapp: well it could mean Maybe Foo
17:12	bitemyapp	unless you wrap it in either or an algebraic data type.
17:12	gfredericks	I wouldn't have expected that though
17:12	technomancy	hyPiRion: eh?
17:12	bitemyapp	gfredericks: that's not even two types.
17:12	bitemyapp	gfredericks: two types would be Either or ADT. Maybe is "maybe" 1 type or nothing.
17:12	hyPiRion	technomancy: `match a with (b, c) ...` where b and c are variables/locals
17:12	technomancy	function?
17:12	clojurebot	function is <Chouser> there is one class per fn, one instance of it per closure
17:13	bitemyapp	Nothing ain't a thing.
17:13	gfredericks	bitemyapp: ...why do you need two types?
17:13	technomancy	oh, in the pattern itself, not the match expression
17:13	technomancy	funny; I never tried that
17:13	bitemyapp	gfredericks: I was making the point what if you want a function that returns two different types you have to express that properly as Left and Right of an Either or something.
17:13	hyPiRion	Not had a need for it yet, but you can do that in Erlang and core.match afaik
17:14	gfredericks	bitemyapp: okay so this is unrelated to the one-armed-if?
17:14	bitemyapp	one-armed implies some unit type getting returned or something. Nutty.
17:14	bitemyapp	gfredericks: no. ^^
17:14	gfredericks	bitemyapp: why not return Nothing when false?
17:14	bitemyapp	and you can return unit in Haskell, but that's not Nothing.
17:14	bitemyapp	and if you return Unit, you can only return unit.
17:14	technomancy	bitemyapp: I could see it inferring None when the other branch returns Some of something
17:15	technomancy	but it's not ac ommon enough idiom to be magic about
17:15	bitemyapp	you can return Nothing or Just myThing but that's Maybe MyType not unit.
17:15	gfredericks	bitemyapp: I never said anything about unit
17:15	bitemyapp	gfredericks: I was talking about what a one-armed boolean would mean in Haskell.
17:15	bitemyapp	gfredericks: and why it doesn't make a ton of sense.
17:15	gfredericks	bitemyapp: I give up trying to explain myself
17:15	zerokarmaleft	how does lein resolve transitive version dependency conflicts?
17:15	rhg135	sounds like one of this 'fuck you' type things about the type checker
17:16	bitemyapp	gfredericks: how did one-arm / two-arm boolean expressions come up anyway?
17:16	bitemyapp	rhg135: no, you can express anything you'd want, you just have to explicit about the non-determinism of the values.
17:16	rhg135	ik, b
17:16	rhg135	erm bytem
17:16	rhg135	damn
17:16	rhg135	nvm
17:16	bitemyapp	rhg135: namely, if you need to handle a return value that might be a string or an int, you make an ADT or wrap in Either.
17:17	xeqi	zerokarmaleft: assuming soft version ranges, by choosing the version that is first in a breadth first search
17:17	gfredericks	bitemyapp: TimMc I think was considering a conversion to the technomancy camp of the if/when divide in clojure
17:17	rhg135	i used to use haskell, i know
17:17	rhg135	ya...
17:17	rhg135	life isn't deterministic
17:17	bitemyapp	gfredericks: I'm pretty sure I'm in his camp.
17:17	gfredericks	Camp Technomancy
17:18	gfredericks	what other things does he believe in? repeatability? the scilardi scenario?
17:18	gfredericks	we're bullish on scilardi
17:18	technomancy	gfredericks: aka the Hagelberg Catechism
17:19	gfredericks	technomancy: I need somebody to invent a Hagelberg Bagel
17:19	xeqi	I hear he likes coffee
17:19	rhg135	i do miss haskell's type system at times
17:19	hyPiRion	We are the Hagelborg
17:19	technomancy	gfredericks: that one's over my head I'm afraid
17:19	rhg135	makes debugging a lot easier
17:19	xeqi	aeropress for everyone
17:20	bitemyapp	rhg135: I was working on some Haskell last night, had one problem the type system didn't catch. That was it.
17:20	bitemyapp	with somebody else*
17:20	rhg135	unlucky
17:20	gfredericks	okay at each meeting for communion we will have hipster coffee and hagelberg bagels
17:20	bitemyapp	I haven't had a bagel since new york.
17:20	bitemyapp	this sounds awesome.
17:20	technomancy	bitemyapp: that's not really a claim with any meaningful interpretation
17:20	rhg135	bitemyapp, i had none in 4 months
17:20	bitemyapp	dnolen: do you eat bagels?
17:20	technomancy	*possible meaningful interpretation
17:20	gfredericks	technomancy: oh you didn't hear about new york?
17:21	technomancy	gfredericks: I guess not?
17:21	bitemyapp	technomancy: it was particularly cute because the one error was the mythical "logic error" that people that reject type systems speak of.
17:21	gfredericks	technomancy: well, three months ago when nobody was expecting anything unusual, new york.
17:21	bitemyapp	a variable was being processed in the wrong part of the recursion.
17:21	technomancy	my son's name is Noah, and there is a place called Noah's Bagels in New York
17:21	Raynes	gfredericks: Well, it wouldn't be type safe.
17:21	technomancy	that's all I got
17:21	hyPiRion	xeqi, technomancy: Fun fact, I bought an aeropress for my dad for Christmas. Not sure if I'm being Hagelberg assimilated or if that happened randomly
17:22	technomancy	gfredericks: good heavens
17:22	gfredericks	I bought a skerton grinder recently and I think it is defective
17:22	Raynes	gfredericks: Actually, sorry, re-read your messages.
17:22	TEttinger	hyperboreean woo
17:22	technomancy	no one told me
17:22	bitemyapp	aeropress is a secret gov't program to make everybody have a stronger upper body
17:22	Raynes	That actually does make a bit of sense.
17:22	bitemyapp	they're preparing us for the zombie apocalypse with caffeine and strength training.
17:23	TEttinger	haha it does not require much strength unless you are using way more grounds than needed
17:23	rhg135	bitemyapp, makes a lot of sense
17:23	gfredericks	bitemyapp: I don't know that I've ever heard anybody suggest a secret govt program that was not sinister
17:23	bitemyapp	TEttinger: I make strong coffee.
17:23	TEttinger	and if you want strong coffee just run coffee through more grounds
17:23	TEttinger	instead of water
17:23	bitemyapp	gfredericks: how is it sinister? They're helping us.
17:23	gfredericks	bitemyapp: it's not, that's my point
17:23	bitemyapp	technomancy: when you were in the Yay, where did you get coffee?
17:23	bitemyapp	gfredericks: I mean, look at flouride. Totally non-sinister.
17:24	TEttinger	you can run aeropress coffee through like 4 times or more, I've heard, before it gets really hard to do because you are pressing mud through the filter
17:24	sprocket_	new clojure user here and wondering if someone might give me a hand :)
17:24	technomancy	bitemyapp: do people call it that? the keys aren't even next to each other
17:24	bitemyapp	technomancy: :3
17:24	TEttinger	sprocket_, shoot
17:24	sprocket_	i'm trying to write a function to load a config file, and if it's already been loaded to return the existing config
17:24	technomancy	bitemyapp: but I was mostly sticking to Sightglass and four barrel
17:24	sprocket_	(defn load-config []
17:24	sprocket_	(if (resolve 'config)
17:24	sprocket_	config
17:24	zerokarmaleft	xeqi: concretely, I have ring-core depending explicitly on clj-time 0.4.4, and blackwater explicitly depending on clj-time 0.6. deps :tree shows lein pulling in clj-time 0.4.4
17:24	sprocket_	(def config {:x "foo" :y "bar" :z "qux"})))
17:24	bitemyapp	technomancy: I'm planning my pre-gym coffee-up.
17:24	technomancy	if I was hungry enough to brave the lines for a waffle, blue bottle
17:24	sprocket_	but it's giving my unbound errors when it runs
17:25	sprocket_	ie) #<Unbound Unbound: #'clojure.core/config>
17:25	rhg135	sprocket_, refheap
17:25	bitemyapp	sprocket_: don't paste code in the channel homie.
17:25	sprocket_	sorry
17:25	technomancy	but last time I was there the line was around the corner even at like 800
17:25	gfredericks	sprocket_: using def conditionally like that is not idiomatic; an alternative could use delay
17:26	TEttinger	,(resolve 'wheeee)
17:26	gfredericks	e.g., (let [c (delay (load the config))] (defn config [] @c))
17:26	clojurebot	nil
17:26	TEttinger	,(resolve 'map)
17:26	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/map
17:26	bitemyapp	why is the new Google maps so slow on my computer? :(
17:26	technomancy	bitemyapp: Ritual has good beans from what I've made for myself in the office, but I haven't been ther myself
17:26	bitemyapp	technomancy: I tink that's the beans we have at my office.
17:26	hyPiRion	gfredericks, sprocket_: could also use a promise and deliver it
17:26	bitemyapp	maybe I should just go into my office to make coffee.
17:27	xeqi	zerokarmaleft: is ring-core listed in your deps before blackwater? the resolution uses the first version it finds
17:27	technomancy	bitemyapp: as long as you have a quality grinder and water within 3 degrees of 95C
17:27	gfredericks	hyPiRion: seems like a bit more logic? is there some benifit?
17:27	technomancy	sometimes it's good to have somewhere to walk to though
17:27	sprocket_	gfredericks, hyPiRion: i think i have some reading to do :)
17:27	technomancy	just to stretch the legs and change perspective
17:28	hyPiRion	gfredericks: depends on how the configuration is set up, I guess? I mean, might be better for testing, etc.
17:28	zerokarmaleft	xeqi: oh derp, I see the overrides info now
17:29	gfredericks	hyPiRion: oh like being able to deliver it in alternative manners?
17:30	hyPiRion	gfredericks: right. Although I guess with-redefs works as well.
17:31	hyPiRion	for testing purposes, I mean
17:32	gfredericks	hyPiRion: yeah I was typing that out and then deleted it and stopped, mostly out of wishywashyness
17:34	zerokarmaleft	bitemyapp: is it possible to get korma to log queries with parameters?
17:34	bitemyapp	zerokarmaleft: you mean blackwater?
17:35	bitemyapp	zerokarmaleft: https://github.com/bitemyapp/blackwater/
17:35	zerokarmaleft	yea, that's what I'm using
17:35	zerokarmaleft	but e.g. where clauses are logged with the id passed instead of '?'
17:36	rhg135	any ideas on how one would write an abstraction over tcp reqquests?
17:36	rhg135	couldn't read the ring source
17:36	bitemyapp	zerokarmaleft: blackwater prints the parameters passed to the right.
17:36	bitemyapp	you want the arguments to be interpolated?
17:37	bitemyapp	the arguments are \| separated.
17:37	zerokarmaleft	bitemyapp: I'm only seeing time elapsed in addition to the sql
17:38	bitemyapp	zerokarmaleft: did you look at the example on blackwater's github page? it should look like that.
17:38	bitemyapp	if it doesn't, there's a bug or you didn't pass any params.
17:39	zerokarmaleft	bitemyapp: hmm, ok...I'll dive in closer to the metal, I've been testing with mock requests
17:40	zerokarmaleft	thanks
17:40	sveri	hi, how can i inject a variable into a string in clojure? something like: (let [a "bar"] (str "foo????bar???"))
17:40	rhg135	format, sveri
17:40	TEttinger	bitemyapp: http://www.reddit.com/r/Coffee/comments/1abp48/
17:40	sveri	rhg135: thx, thats what i was looking for
17:41	rhg135	np
17:42	bitemyapp	TEttinger: what am I supposed to do with the blood stains?
17:42	TEttinger	bitemyapp, that isn't specific to aeropress, and I've only ran coffee through an aeropress once (I was having a hard time drinking coffee, so I decided to maximize the caffeine per half-cup I could drink). I was up all night, needless to say.
17:43	TEttinger	bitemyapp, saliva dissolves blood stains. bury bodies vertically under a dead dog.
17:43	dubsg	I'm interested in using clojure for a simple backend API that will interface with a mongo cluster. Mostly as a proof of concept and to weigh the pros/cons of writing an API I've written in Scala. Any library suggestions wrt the HTTP framework or MongoDB side? compojure with monger seem about right from some naive googling?
17:43	technomancy	TEttinger: seems like it'd probably end up too cool afterwards too
17:44	TEttinger	I don't drink very warm coffee, but this was not cold
17:44	rhg135	dubsg, sounds right
17:44	rhg135	but compojure doesn't actually serve
17:44	rhg135	you can use ring-jetty there
17:45	technomancy	I guess if you brewed it into a pre-warmed cup you might not loose too much heat
17:45	TEttinger	aeropress is a fast method, is the main reason why it wasn't cold I think
17:45	dubsg	I see, so perhaps just ring is needed to respond with JSON to GET's
17:45	rhg135	well
17:45	justin_smith	rhg135: well compojure only works with ring, so it kind of implies ring (or a ring compatible backend at the very least)
17:46	technomancy	well not necessarily for drinking, but you need 92+ for the extraction not to be sour
17:46	justin_smith	compojure is for defining routes though
17:46	rhg135	ring actually makes sense of the http protocol
17:46	rhg135	compojure makes sure it's routed according to "rules"
17:46	TEttinger	I've since moved on from coffee to no-doz. something about the large cups of hot liquid doesn't work with my stomach. and no-doz is more predictable in terms of caffeine content
17:47	dubsg	I'm looking for something very simple, 'GET /some/path/:id' ==> 200 OK {bunch: of, json: yeah!}
17:47	justin_smith	and, ironically, thanks to its usage of macro magic, compojure is barely if at all composible
17:47	rhg135	yup xD
17:47	TEttinger	haha justin_smith, that's awful and great at the same time
17:47	justin_smith	it is the truth, which is often both awful and great
17:47	rhg135	COMPojure
17:48	sveri	does format work in clojurescript?
17:48	rhg135	sveri, it should
17:49	rhg135	it's core
17:49	bitemyapp	justin_smith: not ironic at all. Functions and data uber alles.
17:50	sveri	rhg135: i get an error: TypeError: arp.charts.format is undefined
17:50	rhg135	bitemyapp, i think he was referring to the name
17:50	bitemyapp	oh right.
17:50	rhg135	sveri, strange since it's core code
17:51	sveri	rhg135: do i have to require some lib?
17:51	rhg135	sveri, no that's what core is
17:51	rhg135	included with the language
17:52	sveri	rhg135: yea, i just wanted to make sure
17:52	rhg135	is it in string?
17:52	rhg135	i've never actually used it
17:53	sveri	no, in core
17:53	rhg135	bbl tho
18:03	zerokarmaleft	bitemyapp: something's definitely missing in the korma hook, I'll try and come with a patch or at least a PR
18:04	zerokarmaleft	s/a PR/an issue/
18:33	TimMc	gfredericks: I'd liek to hear more about your reverse-directional solution to ->/->>, but probably won't be able to read it until I'm off this train's blasted wireless.
18:33	TimMc	Leavea message at the beep.
18:37	KeithPM	Hello
18:38	justin_smith	greetings
18:42	KeithPM	Hi Justin...
18:44	KeithPM	Is there a good tutorial on the Thread-second and thread-last macros? -> and ->>
18:52	justin_smith	hmm
18:53	justin_smith	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/-%3E
18:53	justin_smith	KeithPM: the main thing to remember is that -> and ->>, since they are macros, are things that rewrite the code before it is evaluated
18:54	justin_smith	another helpful thing is as-> for when you want to switch where the argument comes in
18:54	brainproxy	is there a straightforward way w/in project.clj to setup a library to depend on an older version of itself?
18:55	justin_smith	,(-> 1 (* 2) (+ 8) (as-> x (- 1 x)))
18:55	clojurebot	-9
18:56	justin_smith	brainproxy: why not make it be a second library that extends the original?
18:57	brainproxy	justin_smith: i could, but wondered if there is another way
18:58	justin_smith	brainproxy: the problem is that classpath doesn't know about versions once it is constructed
18:58	justin_smith	so you would have two definitions of the same classes, just in different parts of the classpath
18:59	justin_smith	so how do you make the functions in version 2 see the defs in version 1, but everyone esle see version 2?
18:59	justin_smith	that seems weird
18:59	justin_smith	not to say it isn't possible, for all I know it is
18:59	justin_smith	just seems weird to me
19:00	brainproxy	well i didn't know if there was a way to prefix or in some way auto-adjust the older version so that they don't conflict
19:24	KeithPM	Had to reboot. Any takers on Thread second and thread last (-> and ->>)?
19:25	gdev	what are we taking?
19:25	arrdem	gdev: KeithPM asked for examples of -> vs ->>
19:25	arrdem	KeithPM: did you see justin_smith's examples?
19:26	gdev	,(-> 'foo (str 'bar))
19:26	clojurebot	"foobar"
19:26	gdev	,(->> 'foo (str 'bar))
19:26	clojurebot	"barfoo"
19:27	justin_smith	,(->> 'foo (str 'bar) symbol)
19:27	clojurebot	barfoo
19:27	justin_smith	another nuance
19:27	arrdem	yeah the legality of bare symbols is nice
19:28	arrdem	,(-> {:foo :bar} :foo)
19:28	clojurebot	:bar
19:31	gdev	,(let [me {:rollodex {:contacts {:mom "Anna" :dad :dead}}}] (-> me :rollodex :contacts :mom))
19:31	clojurebot	"Anna"
19:31	gdev	also good for getting at nested collections
19:32	justin_smith	almost as handy as get-in
19:35	arrdem	IMHO more readable than get-in...
19:36	justin_smith	but get-in allows non-IFn indexes
19:44	gdev	yeah (let [v [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9]]] (-> v 0 0)) gives you an exception but (get-in v [0 0]) gives you 1
19:50	gdev	KeithPM, hope that answers your questions, also no discussion on rocket science would be complete without me linking this vidya http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Macros-Monads
19:59	KeithPM	Sorry I missed Justin's examples. I was rebooting
20:05	KeithPM	Good. Now does -> work with something like (count (filter #(== 3 %) (map second (frequencies (map rank hand)))))) ?
20:05	rads	,(clojure.walk/macroexpand-all '(-> 1 (+ 2) (+ 3) (+ 4)))
20:05	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.walk>
20:05	rads	bummer
20:06	KeithPM	The problem I am seeing is that when I use map, it is hard to thread-second into the forms when I have fuctions like map and filter...
20:07	TEttinger	,(doc ->>)
20:07	clojurebot	"([x & forms]); Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the last item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the last item in second form, etc."
20:07	rads	KeithPM: that's what ->> is for
20:07	rads	(->> (map rank) (frequencies) (map second) (filter #(== 3 %)) (count))
20:07	rads	woops
20:08	rads	(->> hand (map rank) (frequencies) (map second) (filter #(== 3%)) (count))
20:08	KeithPM	OK!!!!! Yeah, I ike it!!! Lemme try that
20:09	KeithPM	thanks rads :)
20:09	rads	np. -> threads the value in the first argument slot, ->> puts it in the last. that's the only difference
20:10	KeithPM	Wow... It rocks!!!
20:11	KeithPM	So one has to study the desired form to determine whether to use -> or ->>? I mean this fell out very naturally but most of the examples I see seem to lean towards the ->
20:13	KeithPM	I think this is probably how clojure has to be written, we seem to find ourselves in an inverted nested situation so easily, these operators turn things right side up fast...
20:14	KeithPM	gdev... I will do my monads tonight :) Thanks
20:14	rads	KeithPM: yeah, it's quite handy. it can also be helpful to use a (let) form to break up a computation into named steps, or to split up a long function into smaller ones to make it easier to read
20:15	KeithPM	Thanks for all who chipped in to clarify this!!!
20:17	KeithPM	Yes let is pretty handy, especially for destructuring and as you point out breaking up into named steps. I think I like the threading macros though, you could capture a long chain of thinking very clearly.
20:18	KeithPM	What was interesting in your solution is the use of what appears to be partial functions, e.g (map rank) is a function expecting a collection...
20:22	KeithPM	gdev, I did look at that one, time for a repeat :)
20:27	gdev	KeithPM, yeah it's a good video because it shows how much you have to repeat yourself and how the code flow can get out of natural order when you don't use threading
20:28	KeithPM	Yes, I think this is a good time for me to review it since I am actually writing a lot of class code for this cool clojure class from Finland
20:31	andyf_	KeithPM: (map rank) in that example is not actually a partial function call, but a form that is manipulated by ->> at the expression level before any functions are called.
20:31	andyf_	KeithPM: Clojure also has partial functions, but unlike Haskell and perhaps some other languages they are explicit, e.g. using the function partial
20:32	KeithPM	Ah ha... thanks... SO I should think of this as a pure macro play... It is reassembling human readable code into machine readable structures right?
20:32	andyf_	right
20:32	andyf_	Although humans can read the output of the ->> macro without too much trouble
20:32	KeithPM	Great, thanks...
20:34	SegFaultAX	By partial functions I assume you mean partial application.
20:34	KeithPM	LOL... This human prefers the linear view... Sure we can do it but is it something I want to be doing all day? I think I would much rather the -> and ->> forms, I could 'nest' as deeply as I want this way...
20:35	KeithPM	Yes that's what I meant SegFaultAX. I am actually more familiar with currying/partial functions in Haskell
20:36	bitemyapp	currying is one of my favorite things about Haskell
20:36	bitemyapp	it's so simple, but so nice.
20:36	SegFaultAX	KeithPM: You keep on using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
20:36	bitemyapp	noprompt made a rather nice elaboration on a base-case with a curried function. It was nice.
20:36	SegFaultAX	bitemyapp: It's a cute but useful trick.
20:36	bitemyapp	cute doesn't do it enough justice.
20:36	KeithPM	Which word SegFaultAX
20:36	bitemyapp	fromList = foldr insert empty
20:37	bitemyapp	^^ PRETTY
20:37	SegFaultAX	KeithPM: Partial function.
20:37	noprompt	point free FTW
20:37	bitemyapp	KeithPM: when you say partial function, you mean partially applied function.
20:38	bitemyapp	KeithPM: a partial function is a specific thing related to the concept of totality. Namely, partial functions have inputs for which there is no output. Total functions have at least one result for every input, even if it's the same thing.
20:38	bitemyapp	I'm still pissed defcurried isn't in core.
20:38	bitemyapp	grumble grumble.
20:38	KeithPM	Yes I agreed to that earlier :) I was just thinking about a function that was expecting additional variables... Partial application is actually the technically correct term from lambda calc
20:39	andyf_	bitemyapp: Pissed enough to file a ticket and write a patch? :-)
20:39	SegFaultAX	KeithPM: It has nothing to do with partial functions.
20:39	KeithPM	additional values actually :)
20:39	bitemyapp	andyf_: I've not signed the CA and I'm grumpy about other things too.
20:39	KeithPM	True
20:39	andyf_	bitemyapp: Of course putting it into a library is much easier.
20:39	SegFaultAX	defcurried is a thing already, it just isn't public.
20:39	KeithPM	Partial functions are actually from calculus :)
20:39	bitemyapp	SegFaultAX: #' is the savior of us all.
20:40	bitemyapp	goddamn, this is the smoothest pu ehr I've ever had.
20:40	KeithPM	Thanks for pointing out SegFaultAX. I prefer accuracy in expression, that's our business :)
20:41	SegFaultAX	bitemyapp: Have you had ancient trees?
20:41	SegFaultAX	KeithPM: And also not saying things that are wrong or unrelated. ;)
20:41	KeithPM	:)
20:41	bitemyapp	SegFaultAX: dunnae tink so.
20:41	KeithPM	I'll get it right
20:42	SegFaultAX	bitemyapp: It's so full bodied and delicious. It tastes like a cross between mushroom and tree bark. Quite strange, but very good.
20:42	noprompt	bitemyapp: my face isn't on the file anymore ;_;
20:43	noprompt	:P
20:43	bitemyapp	noprompt: hum?
20:43	bitemyapp	SegFaultAX: so, have your pitchfork and torch ready?
20:43	SegFaultAX	Always.
20:43	bitemyapp	SegFaultAX: the FPers are getting together for an old fashioned holiday "run the heretic out of town" in honor of Gilad Bracha's uninformed talk.
20:43	bitemyapp	so uh, partay at the Bracha haus.
20:44	SegFaultAX	Was that the one on Alan Kay?
20:44	SegFaultAX	No. Which one was that?
20:44	SegFaultAX	Oh
20:44	noprompt	does defcurried simply use partial behind the scenes?
20:44	SegFaultAX	That one
20:45	noprompt	or does it do some macro magic?
20:45	SegFaultAX	Deconstructing FP. Yea that was a weird talk.
20:45	bitemyapp	noprompt: neither, I think it just returns a closure for each argument.
20:45	noprompt	SegFaultAX: was that the one on infoq about how functional programming is mostly bogus?
20:45	bitemyapp	blargh. let me just look it up
20:45	bitemyapp	noprompt: mostly bogus is accurate.
20:46	noprompt	SegFaultAX: at least that's the impression i got before i fell asleep.
20:46	SegFaultAX	noprompt: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core/reducers.clj#L139
20:47	SegFaultAX	noprompt: Bogus is a strong word, but overblown.
20:48	noprompt	i'm basically going to skip talks like that.
20:48	noprompt	going forward.
20:48	noprompt	and blog posts too.
20:48	noprompt	generally speaking, i've found them to be an utter waste of time.
20:49	bitemyapp	(inc noprompt)
20:49	lazybot	⇒ 3
20:49	SegFaultAX	noprompt: I like to keep an open mind about that sort of stuff.
20:49	bitemyapp	show code or gtfo I always say.
20:49	bitemyapp	zerokarmaleft: I enjoy watching the aftermath of your drained sanity when you try to fuck with the monkeypatching of Korma.
20:49	SegFaultAX	Hard to do with theoretical stuff.
20:50	bitemyapp	Bah.
20:50	noprompt	SegFaultAX: they're generally the same song in a different key.
20:50	noprompt	pop music for programming.
20:51	bitemyapp	I think I like Haskell partly because it helps to put distance between me and the pop culture of programming.
20:51	bitemyapp	I could tell I needed to reach for higher ground after 50% of the tweets about Clojure on my twitter were actually about Overtone.
20:52	SegFaultAX	Implying that Clojure is pop culture. Heh, I wish.
20:52	bitemyapp	hits my threshold for it. Lots of people talking, little/no code, mostly about accessible nonsense like overtone or inclusion fetishism.
20:53	bitemyapp	work on something interesting or difficult enough, you don't have to talk about being inclusive because you're just grateful somebody, anybody...read your fucking paper.
20:54	noprompt	fair enough, but i'm w/ SegFaultAX here; i hardly think clojure represents the status quo.
20:55	SegFaultAX	Not by a long shot.
20:55	bitemyapp	you're mistaking pop culture for status quo
20:55	bitemyapp	it has nothing to do with that.
20:55	noprompt	bitemyapp: yeah, wrong phrase.
20:56	bitemyapp	It's about the substance density and the faux participation of people not doing any work and just consuming/observing a few actually doing something.
20:56	SegFaultAX	I don't use or not use languages based on how trendy I or others perceive them to be. I wouldn't specifically pick Haskell over something else because it makes me feel like I'm in some elite minority group.
20:56	bitemyapp	I consider it a perk, rather than a raison d'etre.
20:56	noprompt	(inc SegFaultAX)
20:56	lazybot	⇒ 3
20:57	SegFaultAX	bitemyapp: That's /always/ the way it is. There will always be more lurkers than producers.
20:57	bitemyapp	The primary reasons are things like having lost my patience with type errors.
20:57	SegFaultAX	That's orthogonal to trendiness.
20:57	bitemyapp	noprompt: props for producing a lone error of the mythical category of "logic error" last night btw.
20:57	bitemyapp	SegFaultAX: that would be my point.
20:58	bitemyapp	my reasons are many.
20:58	bitemyapp	noprompt: <3 the code.
20:58	bitemyapp	noprompt: if you wanted to genericize it you could make a Foldable instance for it.
20:58	bitemyapp	Almost want to do a post mortem of that error.
20:59	rads	dnolen: hey david, I've been trying out a fairly complex UI with om and I have some tricky questions for you: https://github.com/swannodette/om/issues/20 :)
20:59	noprompt	bitemyapp: yeah, i'm glad we're doing these sessions. i began looking into the rendering code earlier today.
21:00	bitemyapp	noprompt: awesome. I really enjoyed it last night despite being desperately exhausted.
21:02	noprompt	rads: have you expiremented w/ a single location for application state?
21:02	noprompt	bitemyapp: me too.
21:03	dsrx	bitemyapp: saying you're going to "reach for higher ground" because too much of your twitter feed smacks of accessibility sure as hell makes it seem like the raison d'etre
21:04	bitemyapp	dsrx: nap.
21:05	SegFaultAX	I feel a tweet coming on... "LMAO if you use Twitter to judge the quality of a programming language community"
21:06	bitemyapp	I already described it as a perk. o_O
21:06	akhudek	think my favourite thing about the clojure community is the number of people who look at past work while trying to solve hard problems
21:06	bitemyapp	SegFaultAX: if we really want to get into the quality of the community, I could talk your ear off about the libraries.
21:06	SegFaultAX	bitemyapp: Meh, it's a young language.
21:07	SegFaultAX	And generally things are improving all the time. There has been tremendous growth in the Clojure community over the last 2ish years.
21:08	SegFaultAX	CLJS in particular has brought in some big crowds in the last 12 months.
21:08	gfredericks	TimMc: I just looked back at the old versions and now I'm totally confused because I think they are what I was imagining
21:11	noprompt	the best way to tolerate the programming community on twitter is to also follow an equal number of weirdos who are weird for weird's sake.
21:11	dsrx	follow that NodeOS guy
21:11	bitemyapp	noprompt: which regex libraries did you poke at?
21:12	noprompt	dsrx: it's all about @coolpond.
21:12	noprompt	dsrx: sorry @cool_pond
21:14	dnolen	rads: trying to answer those questions myself, it's going to take some time to shakeout
21:14	noprompt	bitemyapp: not many. i've been thinking of wrapping a regex lib that provides extended regexp to ClojureScript.
21:15	dnolen	rads: in Om master I've made om.core/set-state! and om.core/get-state official
21:15	noprompt	bitemyapp: by "not many" i mean one.
21:16	dnolen	rads: I don't think you should put transient state into the app-state unless you might find that useful for undo operations
21:16	dnolen	rads: there's also support for absolute paths, so you can access the player info from anywhere
21:19	dnolen	rads: it's also worth considering whether information like that is best shared via channels and saved locally via om.core/set-state!
21:20	noprompt	dnolen: i've been having good luck with an abstraction that uses pub/sub to wrap application state.
21:21	noprompt	dnolen: my ui layer almost never talk to my data layer directly.
21:22	noprompt	everyone talks/listens to the application message broker.
21:22	dnolen	noprompt: that's another approach, I certainly haven't played w/ any of this enough to know what works and what doesn't
21:23	noprompt	dnolen: so far it's working fairly well. the difficulties lie mostly in structuring the application state.
21:24	SegFaultAX	Managing application state is a problem in general, so don't feel bad.
21:24	noprompt	dnolen: but it's allowed me to avoid making api calls and direct state manipulation in places where it really shouldn't belong.
21:26	SegFaultAX	dnolen: What's the long-term strategy for Om? Is it something you see yourself maintaining, or is it more an exercise in what can be done using new types of front-end architectures?
21:26	dnolen	SegFaultAX: the point of Om was mostly to show what's possible and illustrate what I think are dead ends
21:26	dnolen	dead ends == copying what JS devs do
21:27	dnolen	beyond that that I think it's up to everyone to figure out what actually works when leave those approaches behind
21:27	SegFaultAX	dnolen: What are the biggest pain points in building and maintaining complex javascript frontends?
21:28	dnolen	SegFaultAX: I think the entire model is busted
21:28	dnolen	thus Om
21:28	SegFaultAX	Which model?
21:28	dnolen	treating the DOM as a "place"
21:28	dnolen	which sits at the foundation of modern JS practice
21:28	SegFaultAX	Ah, yeah.
21:35	ddellacosta	it's true, we recently stopped treating our DOM as a place but rather as a sort of "render target" and it has saved us a lot of pain. We still maintain a client-local data store, but this is wholly segregated from the DOM, and could exist anywhere really. The React.js/OM approach now seems obviously better to me.
21:37	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: I've done similarly in how I've changed how I approach frontend.
21:37	ddellacosta	the place I still struggle is complicated user interactivity flows. Even while core.async helps a bit here, it doesn't alleviate all the pain. Still feel like I'm doing something wrong.
21:37	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: yeah, it really seems to be the direction folks are moving in.
21:38	dnolen	ddellacosta: UI programming is hard, but it doesn't need to be insane, which is how it usually feels.
21:38	rads	dnolen: I will have to take a look at pedestal again and see if there are any lessons for om. IIRC pedestal-app deals with the same issue of app state vs ui state
21:38	ddellacosta	dnolen: yeah, that's fair, and I think that sums it up pretty well.
21:39	dnolen	rads: I think my ticket about including get/set-state APIs more or less sums up my ideas
21:39	dnolen	rads: transient state doesn't go into app-state unless for some reason you want/need to record it
21:40	dnolen	app-state is really just the pure "model"
21:40	dnolen	everything transient should go in component state
21:41	rovar	can someone explain to me what the ^{:export foo} mechanism is?
21:41	rovar	https://gist.github.com/jolby/1119294
21:41	rads	sounds good, I'll take look at the new code
21:41	dnolen	rads: there are some complications because parent component need to communicate things to children component like - are you in the edit state? modifying the subview list etc. that's stuff I'm pondering next
21:42	ddellacosta	rovar: export in CLJS allows you to call a function from JS code.
21:43	noprompt	dnolen: this is the type of stuff i put in my application "state" which is connected to the root of the ui.
21:44	dnolen	noprompt: yeah, I'm not quite convinced about doing that - I think there's room for a new kind of component
21:44	noprompt	dnolen: not all of it but most of it. click an edit button update the application state to be in edit mode.
21:44	dnolen	om/children or something like that
21:44	rads	dnolen: so in react there is no concept of app state, what is the use case for it here instead of only having state inside components and communicating through props/channels?
21:44	noprompt	dnolen: like i said, i use pub/sub as the intermediate device.
21:44	dnolen	that provides a higher level abstraction than what's current available
21:44	dnolen	some like this would give you filter/sort/insert/remove w/o needing to interfere
21:44	dnolen	it all feels to manual at the moment
21:44	dnolen	s/to/too
21:45	noprompt	dnolen: well i'm sure if anyone will find a solution, it will be you. :)
21:45	dnolen	rads: React has props, that's what app-state is props
21:46	dnolen	rads: it's experiment, but I think the value of app-state is that you can always see your app as data
21:46	dnolen	rads: Om is just a fancy interface for human beings to Clojure(Script) data
21:46	dnolen	to paraphrase Kovas B., Om is a trick to make it tangible w/o having to actually write code
21:47	dnolen	you can manipulate some data a UI and still get the plain data out w/o futzing around too much
21:47	dnolen	"some data with a UI"
21:48	rovar	ddellacosta: ahh. so it's like an ffi interface for callbacks. Do people still use this model often? I don't see it often in clojurescript examples.
21:49	ddellacosta	rovar: I have used it often when I've needed interop with JS or CoffeeScript code. I use it less now that our codebase is getting closer to 100% CLJS.
21:54	logic_prog	what is the standard way to sahre code between cljs and clojure?
21:54	rovar	ddellacosta: I am interested in targetting ios, android and web with approximately 1 codebase.
21:54	rovar	I'm hoping that can be clojure
21:54	logic_prog	i hate code duplication and I have some data structures that I need to mirror on both sides
21:55	dnolen	logic_prog: there are various ways to do cljx is somewhat popular
21:55	logic_prog	dnolen: yeah, https://github.com/lynaghk/cljx was the first result on google
21:55	ddellacosta	logic_prog: I think it depends, cljx works well in some cases, but if there is relatively little interop, crossovers should work fine
21:55	ddellacosta	interop = Java/JS interop I mean
21:56	ddellacosta	rovar: I can't speak to that, I'm sorry--I haven't done anything other than web dev with CLJS.
21:56	logic_prog	ddellacosta: "relatively little interop" == "relatively little platform (jvm / js) dependent code" ?
21:56	ddellacosta	logic_prog: that's my feeling about it--I think cljx is kinda moot if you don't have much that is platform dependent. That said, maybe there are other arguments for using it over crossovers that I'm missing.
21:57	dnolen	rovar: I think iOS story could be good now that there's a decent bridge from JS to native - maybe Android will get it's act together at some point, PhoneGap until then I guess.
21:57	rovar	you should be able to make a clear delineation between your core business logic and the "presentation" layers.
21:58	dnolen	rovar: still, CLJS and Clojure don't really try to get to crazy papering over platform differences, that's left for applications to solve.
21:58	logic_prog	ddellacosta: https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild/blob/master/doc/CROSSOVERS.md does look really simple
21:58	rovar	dnolen: I was thinking about using appcelerator titanium, which can hit ios and android with javascript, and that link I posted above demonstrates that it can be targeted with clojurescript.
21:58	rovar	the other thing was maybe use cljx, and target android natively with java, and use cljs for the ios platform..
21:58	dnolen	rovar: that could work too, I don't know much about Titanium
21:59	ddellacosta	logic_prog: can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not...haha
21:59	ddellacosta	logic_prog: but I've used both, and I haven't found either of them too complicated really. crossovers don't require a separate library, is all.
22:00	logic_prog	ddellacosta: not sarcastic, cross overs is basically almost a straight up "cp" right?
22:00	logic_prog	ddellacosta: i.e. it monitors when things change, then copies things over
22:01	logic_prog	ddellacosta: one thing I don't understand: suppose I have a piece of code, which depends on clojure.core.rrb-vector in clojure land, and cljs.core.rrb-vector in cljs land, is there a way to make this work with crossovers?
22:01	ddellacosta	logic_prog: ah, yeah--mostly just configuring your project.clj to set up where it should be picking up crossover code, in my experience.
22:01	ddellacosta	logic_prog: don't know the answer to that--my intuition is that if the library is both Clojure and CLJS compatible, it should just work--but don't know without trying it.
22:02	ddellacosta	logic_prog: if there are separate interfaces for the two, then you may need to use cljx to get compatibility, however.
22:03	ddellacosta	logic_prog: by separate interfaces I mean, one interface for using clojure.core.rrb-vector with CLJS vs. Clojure, for example (no idea if that's the case)
22:03	logic_prog	they use the same protocol
22:03	logic_prog	I think I can make it work :-)
22:03	ddellacosta	logic_prog: let us know how it goes! :-)
22:21	rovar	has anyone tried making leiningen listen to git?
22:21	rovar	e.g. post commit hook http posts or somesuch?
22:21	rovar	or even polling
22:21	rovar	I'd rather use leiningen instead of jenkins
22:22	arrdem	rovar: hooks to achieve what... building?
22:22	rovar	arrdem: yes, build automation / deployment
22:22	rovar	CI
22:22	arrdem	rovar: you should be ableo to hack up a post-recieve to build in not time.
22:22	rovar	arrdem: that's what I figure, so easy in fact, that I figure someone else has done it :)
22:23	arrdem	rovar: I wrote and published a paper not to long ago on what ammounted to that :P
22:23	rovar	well that's a good start :)
22:23	arrdem	rovar: turns out that because it's so easy everyone just rolls their own.
22:23	rovar	yea.. good to know I'm not crazy at least..
22:23	arrdem	rovar: but yes we (as a community) could build really good hooks support for a lot of development process stuff.
22:23	rovar	jenkins just seems like overkill when about a dozen lines of clojure should do what I need.
22:23	arrdem	rovar: that we don't is characteristic of our general lack of process and software engineering
22:24	arrdem	or four lines of bash :P
22:24	arrdem	that's the sad thing... a little well considered bash scripting can get you rediculously far
22:24	rovar	that is a good point
22:25	rovar	I guess I could make a post commit hook to call leiningen
22:25	arrdem	right. that's all you need. echo "lein build; git push deploy;">> hooks/post-recieve
22:26	arrdem	I mean my typical setup is I have one bare git repo that's the "master", and it has a post-recieve that cd's into deployment and `git pull --rebase`es
22:26	arrdem	totally works to deploy node and clj code.
22:26	rovar	I'd need to make my git server my build server, or make it auto-push
22:27	arrdem	yeah but achieving that sort of auto-push is really pretty easy...
22:27	arrdem	and totally worth doing IMHO
22:28	arrdem	I suppose there should be a git template for this kind of setup...
22:28	arrdem	~ideas
22:28	clojurebot	Huh?
22:28	arrdem	~todo
22:28	clojurebot	todo is http://clojure.org/todo
22:28	arrdem	hum... I thought I had an "ideas" var. oh well.
22:29	justin_smith	rovar: leiningen instead of jenkins? I have never heard of such a thing. But it is easy to make jenkins use leiningen
22:29	rovar	blarg
22:29	justin_smith	I mean I guess it varies depending on how much of the jenkins feature set you are using
22:29	rovar	jenkins has acquired mass of its own
22:30	rovar	it requires significant exit velocity
22:30	justin_smith	sure, I use it because my workplace has a jenkins server set up for all of our projects
22:30	arrdem	jar jar
22:30	arrdem	*har har
22:30	bitemyapp	arrdem: soup
22:31	justin_smith	what jenkins does for auto-deploy is poll every X minutes, and if it pulls anything new from origin/master it runs the build/deploy script
22:31	justin_smith	you could do that with cron
22:31	justin_smith	or if you really wanted to you could make a clojure program that did that I guess
22:32	rovar	at work, where we have many dedicated git servers, we use jenkins for kicking off jobs from git
22:32	arrdem	bitemyapp: gaming box is capable of 351khash/s for dogecoin mining :D
22:32	justin_smith	create a future that sleeps and then runs the check / conditionally builds and deploys / launches itself again
22:32	rovar	while not at work, I could manage something more akin to a post commit hook :)
22:32	justin_smith	if you want to build on the same machine you are hosting git on, yeah that works
22:32	bitemyapp	arrdem: mumble?
22:33	arrdem	I really want to build a post-commit hook that approximates Jenkins while staying really stupidly light weight and free...
22:33	rovar	I'm afraid I don't get the dogecoin joke, if it is one..
22:33	arrdem	bitemyapp: not tonight. both mining and family. I'll be lurking here tho.
22:33	justin_smith	someone should totally make the miniature jenkins
22:33	bitemyapp	arrdem: isn't mining automatic though?
22:33	justin_smith	rovar: dogecoin may be a joke, but it also exists
22:33	arrdem	bitemyapp: but I'm doing it from Linux and it's pegging the geepus
22:34	justin_smith	rovar: http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/dogecoins-founders-believe-in-the-power-of-meme-currencies
22:34	arrdem	bitemyapp: so if you want to play some FTL we're good, but otherwise no
22:34	rovar	I see that it is very fashion
22:34	bitemyapp	arrdem: er, FTL is multiplayer?!
22:34	arrdem	bitemyapp: no. I'm joking.
22:34	bitemyapp	I'd be up for just chatting anyway.
22:34	justin_smith	rovar: so meme, much flog dead horse
22:34	arrdem	bitemyapp: if it was, it would surely be harder.
22:34	arrdem	(inc justin_smith)
22:34	lazybot	⇒ 21
22:35	arrdem	justin_smith: hey, I have 4533 dead horse points from under 24hrs of mining stfu
22:35	justin_smith	:)
22:35	rovar	how money
22:35	arrdem	bitemyapp: so how does typeclass based dispatch get implemented?
22:35	bitemyapp	arrdem: I figured out how to be reasonably successful in DayZ, as I'd mentioned, but people are pretty ruthless bandits right now.
22:36	arrdem	bitemyapp: I totally believe that
22:36	bitemyapp	arrdem: you infer the type, then rewrite things like "show" to "show_mytype_tc"
22:36	bitemyapp	I mention the banditry because it's worse than usual. You have zero chance of making friends and banding together for mutual benefit. Kinda disappointing.
22:37	arrdem	bitemyapp: ah so it's compile time static because more type information is apparent than just the typeclass.
22:37	arrdem	bitemyapp: the entire implementation is known statically.
22:37	bitemyapp	Right.
22:37	arrdem	hum. ok.
22:38	logic_prog	hmm
22:38	logic_prog	lein clean wipes out "cljs" when I use crossovers
22:40	arrdem	bitemyapp: so is long term survival possible in dayz? it seems like most of the resources in the game are nonrenuable.
22:51	bitemyapp	arrdem: long term survival is possible.
22:51	bitemyapp	arrdem: requires developing routine that includes stopping for water.
22:52	bitemyapp	arrdem: getting proper weapons with ammo requires a hell of a journey.
22:56	arrdem	bitemyapp: right. making it to the airfield.
22:57	rovar	at one point I liked games like that
22:57	rovar	then I got a job
22:57	arrdem	(dec jobs)
22:57	lazybot	⇒ -1
22:57	rovar	and decided I didn't want two jobs
22:57	rovar	I was big into Shadowbane and DAoC
22:57	arrdem	rovar: yeah that's why I'm not really engaged in dayz. it's cool... but I don't feel like spending my "free" time trying not to die.
22:57	bitemyapp	rovar: this isn't an MMO.
22:58	rovar	o rly?
22:58	arrdem	bitemyapp: ... persistant state? it basically is...
22:58	bitemyapp	not in the sense that it has grinding, no.
22:58	bitemyapp	there's only 40 people to a server
22:58	rovar	interesting
22:58	bitemyapp	and it only takes 2-3 hours to max out your gear.
22:58	bitemyapp	yes, it saves your personal state
22:58	rovar	is that a beta restriction?
22:58	bitemyapp	I've no idea what their long term plans are
22:58	bitemyapp	but it's always been the case that the servers are interchangeable.
22:59	bitemyapp	and again, there's no grinding.
22:59	bitemyapp	you're just surviving and making your way around - avoiding bandits (human players) and zombies.
22:59	bitemyapp	I had to have a couple of failed runs (less than one hour apiece) before I understood how to survive and navigate.
23:04	bitemyapp	rovar: but yeah there are no levels. The only thing that "levels up" is your knowledge
23:04	rovar	interesting
23:05	bitemyapp	knowledge of where loot tends to be, that sort of thing.
23:22	rovar	wowow.. the android emulator on my linux box is intractably slow
23:22	rovar	i'm not sure how people get any work done..
23:25	ddellacosta	rovar: whenever I've done android dev in the past, I've only ever used a real handset. The emulator is just pointless
23:25	rovar	:(
23:40	arrdem	bitemyapp: you still there?
23:41	arrdem	bitemyapp: remaining family is watching the idiot box. you've got yourself a partner.
23:42	bitemyapp	arrdem: hum.
23:42	bitemyapp	arrdem: I am in mumbur.