#clojure – 2013-12-11

2013-12-11

00:00	TEttinger	,"\uff"
00:00	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Invalid character length: 2, should be: 4>
00:05	cljr	dcolish: i was aware of that notation, but i basically am trying to get to a 16 character string, if it was python it would be something like 10 * "\x00" + 2 * "\xff" + "\x7f\x00\x00\x01"; if I used 0xff in java/cojure, it is easy enough to create a vector of those, but i dont know how to get th the string representation, if i do (str 0xff) -> "255"
00:06	uvtc	~botslack
00:06	clojurebot	No entiendo
00:07	cljr	i was using something akin to "\u007f\u0000\u0000\u0001", but then i realized that 0x7f != "\u007f"
00:09	alandipert	,(apply str (map char (repeat 5 0xff)))
00:09	clojurebot	"��"
00:10	cljr	,(char 0xff)
00:10	clojurebot	\�
00:10	cljr	alandipert: i believe that is what i needed, thanks
00:10	alandipert	cljr: np
00:19	dcolish	if you can use it, commons-codec has some niceties for working with Hex strings
00:19	bitemyapp	arrdem: http://i.imgur.com/MJgBsoR.jpg
00:19	arrdem	bitemyapp: you're about three hours early
00:20	bitemyapp	arrdem: given finals, figured I'd let you sleep more
00:20	arrdem	bitemyapp: the final is at 9am. my scheduler is tied voting for and against sleep.
00:21	bitemyapp	arrdem: sleep
00:21	trinary	always sleep.
00:29	arrdem	the effort will be made then
01:47	SegFaultAX	bitemyapp: I need to borrow your gun.
01:47	bitemyapp	SegFaultAX: ...
01:48	bitemyapp	SegFaultAX: okay, what?
01:48	SegFaultAX	bitemyapp: I must recreate: http://i.imgur.com/pyqtppN.jpg
01:49	arrdem	SegFaultAX: ............................. why
01:49	bitemyapp	SegFaultAX: my gun is too pretty for it to work.
01:49	SegFaultAX	Haha
01:49	bitemyapp	you need a fugly handgun like that dude's.
01:49	SegFaultAX	I already have the sweater and everything.
01:49	bitemyapp	I'm srs.
01:49	arrdem	SegFaultAX: go find a pair of gold deagles. it'll be great.
01:49	bitemyapp	Masha is not to be trifled wish. She has feelingks.
01:49	SegFaultAX	.357 magnum would be perfect.
01:49	bitemyapp	with*
01:49	bitemyapp	I do not own a .357
01:52	bitemyapp	SegFaultAX: http://i.imgur.com/vi2KPFY.jpg
01:53	bitemyapp	SegFaultAX: Mk23
01:54	arrdem	dat. can.
01:54	bitemyapp	arrdem: ikr
01:56	arrdem	I'm gonna have to see if Reds has one of those next time I make a trip....
01:56	bitemyapp	arrdem: I'm going to HATE YOU REALLY HARD from over here in California.
01:57	arrdem	bitemyapp: bro. texas. I may wind up with a gunsafe in my appartment next year. you could too :P
01:57	bitemyapp	Watching Zizek while hacking Haskell makes me feel intense.
01:57	bitemyapp	and coke-addled.
01:57	arrdem	HOW THE SHIT IS THAT GUN $1905
01:57	{[^-^]}	Is there anywhere at all I can see complexity of clojure data structures?
01:57	{[^-^]}	in big-O notation
01:57	bitemyapp	arrdem: H&K
01:58	{[^-^]}	because googling for it is a huge fail
01:58	arrdem	bitemyapp: that's friggin silly
01:58	bitemyapp	{[^-^]}: clojure.org
01:58	bitemyapp	arrdem: H&K is nazi brick of high price
01:58	bitemyapp	arrdem: is par for course, comrade.
01:58	arrdem	bitemyapp: but dat german engineering...
01:58	arrdem	DAS GERMANS
01:58	bitemyapp	arrdem: nazi brick of high price.
01:58	arrdem	I'll just go build my $500 AR and feel poor now...
01:59	{[^-^]}	bitemyapp: there's barely any info about it
01:59	{[^-^]}	on clojure.org
01:59	bitemyapp	arrdem: don't build a $500 AR
02:00	bitemyapp	arrdem: that's not really worth it.
02:00	bitemyapp	arrdem: if you need something more accurate than an AK, then Mosin or Mini-14. Or Mini-30.
02:05	arrdem	yay cheaper garands!
02:09	mysamdog	I'm having another clojurescript problem, this time with dommy.
02:10	mysamdog	Here's my cljs file: https://www.refheap.com/21667, my html file: https://www.refheap.com/21669, and the tail -n 500 of the js that it compiles to: https://www.refheap.com/21670
02:10	echo-area	What's the point of adding macros like cond->, some->, as->? I can't think of a typical usage
02:11	arrdem	echo-area: as-> is great if your threaded value doesn't aways need to occur in the first position
02:12	echo-area	And there's no examples in clojure's source code itself
02:12	echo-area	(Practical examples)
02:12	echo-area	arrdem: Ah, I see that now
02:12	echo-area	What about the others?
02:12	mysamdog	I'm tryring to use dommy for click events and such, and I made a quick test to make sure it worked, which it didn't.
02:12	talios	threading macros are for people who pretend they don't really want to use scala and symbol heavy code ;)
02:13	arrdem	echo-area: some-> provides shortcutting, it's potentially a nice way to chain predicates
02:13	mysamdog	What's supposed to happen is when I click the button with id "Home" is that the word test is added to the div with id "content"
02:14	arrdem	echo-area: cond-> is just shorthand for (cond e (...) (-> e ...))
02:14	mysamdog	Calling soar.site.test(); from the js console in my browser works, but clicking the button doesn't.
02:14	arrdem	s/shortcutting/short circuting/g
02:15	[Neurotic]	It's not quite the same ;)
02:15	[Neurotic]	talios: You doing it right now?
02:16	talios	[Neurotic] - shceduled to record in about 15 mins ish
02:16	echo-area	arrdem: Not exactly, cond-> doesn't short circuit after the first true test expression
02:16	talios	[Neurotic] - ah yes, its Kai whose wellington based right?
02:16	[Neurotic]	Argh! I would be delighted to join you, unfortunately, I have dinner with my parents shortly for their wedding anniversary
02:16	[Neurotic]	talios: That's the one :) German born, NZ based.
02:17	arrdem	echo-area: true, and I think that's a feature.
02:17	talios	[Neurotic] - if we guest on each podcast, we could be 3 devs down under :) hah
02:17	arrdem	echo-area: it allows for multiple cases to be true.. a better way to think about it is throwing #(if)s in your ->
02:17	talios	altho - we're under downunder
02:17	[Neurotic]	talios: I like it ;)
02:18	[Neurotic]	talios: I'm currently hassling Kai to do another podcast before year end. Nailing him down is proving to be struggle ;)
02:18	talios	[Neurotic] - and at this time of year even harder I imagine
02:19	[Neurotic]	He's travelling or something else fairly non-important (to me anyway ;) )
02:25	[Neurotic]	talios: good luck finding someone! If you ever need a guest, I'd be more than happy to fill in!
02:25	talios	sweet - you may get mocked for cold fusion however ;-)
02:26	[Neurotic]	I always get mocked for ColdFusion. I would expect no less ;)
02:26	talios	we need more guests, shift things up a bit - can be a bit tedious us always the same
02:26	talios	hah - mind you - me/greg are both ex Delphi as well
02:26	[Neurotic]	I'm a terrible extrovert, so any chance I get to talk .. in front of people, I'm pretty much there :D
02:26	[Neurotic]	okay, I reely need to run. ttyl!
02:27	talios	Happy Wedding Annivsary :)
02:27	talios	for your folks
02:41	nones	is there any differences between (map :key) and (:key map)
02:41	arrdem	nones: practically no
02:41	talios	different functions, same outcome.
02:41	talios	for all intent - as arrdem says, nothing different
02:42	talios	one may "read" better to human brains given different scenarios is all
02:42	nones	thanks
02:45	daniel_k_	https://github.com/bbatsov/clojure-style-guide#collections says that (map :key) is susceptible to NullPointerException.
02:45	scottj	nones: (:key map) is better if map might be nil
02:49	nones	thanks, i understood
04:38	magnars	Just added introduce-let and expand-let refactorings to clj-refactor.el :) https://github.com/magnars/clj-refactor.el#introduce--expand-let-example
04:45	ucb	magnars: !
04:45	ucb	magnars: (that means "whoa, nice!")
04:45	ucb	but shorter
04:45	magnars	brevity is the essence of wit
04:47	ucb	:)
05:26	piranha	magnars: you list paredit 24 as a dependency for clj-refactor, but I see only paredit 22 on marmelade (and through el-get I got paredit 23)
05:27	piranha	magnars: is that some kind of dev version? should I obtain it by hands somehow?
05:43	magnars	piranha: oh, I guess paredit 24 isn't released yet. It certainly isn't necessary to get such a new version. I'll downgrade the dependency straight away.
05:43	piranha	magnars: thanks :)
05:44	magnars	piranha: 0.4.2 released and on marmalade :)
05:46	piranha	magnars: error: Need package `multiple-cursors-1.2.2', but only 1.2.1 is available :)
05:46	magnars	haha, really now :) Let me see what the difference between 1.2.2 and 1.2.1 is
05:47	magnars	multi-file packages are a pain to deploy to marmalade :P
05:47	piranha	they are always a bit of pain :)
05:48	magnars	Bah, 1.2.1 is pretty old. I'll get 1.3.0 out on marmalade instead. Bear with me as I curse the tar command.
06:02	magnars	piranha: multiple-cursors 1.3.0 is now deployed to marmalade
06:02	piranha	magnars: cool, let me try...
06:03	piranha	damn, 'package-handle-response: Error during download request: Not Found'
06:03	piranha	I'll have to debug this to determine what's going on :(
06:03	piranha	later then
06:03	magnars	hmm, that sucks
06:03	piranha	give me few mins though, maybe I'll find the source quick enough
06:04	piranha	magnars: that seems about multiple-cursors
06:05	piranha	magnars: http://paste.in.ua/9150/
06:05	magnars	hmm ... it certainly is there: http://marmalade-repo.org/packages/multiple-cursors
06:06	piranha	eh
06:07	piranha	well, later then
06:07	piranha	:)
06:08	magnars	I should find some way of having CI pull from both marmalade and melpa, in addition to git.
06:08	piranha	I hope that's not el-get getting in the way...
06:10	magnars	no, same error on a blank emacs
06:15	magnars	piranha: seems like a marmalade fail - pressing "Download" on the marmalade page fails too.
06:15	piranha	ah...
06:16	piranha	maybe we just need to wait for a bit
07:25	CookedGryphon	magnars: I'm getting a runtime exception, EOF while reading when I try to do some refactors
07:25	magnars	CookedGryphon: ok, would you mind opening an issue with an example, so I can reproduce it?
07:26	CookedGryphon	Yeah, it might be quite an involved example though - I'm doing clojure on android.
07:26	CookedGryphon	feel free to say "unsupported"!
07:28	CookedGryphon	I'll check if it works fine in some of my other projects and then do a little more investigation of my own before I bother you with an issue, but it seems to think I have unmatched delimiters
07:28	CookedGryphon	when I don't
07:30	magnars	CookedGryphon: Clojure on android shouldn't be a problem. The refactorings pretty much only care about sexps. Which ones are giving you the issue? Might be that paredit is complaining.
07:31	CookedGryphon	magnars: Why am I getting a runtime exception as a result? Is the manipulation purely elisp?
07:31	CookedGryphon	as in a java runtime exception
07:31	magnars	Wow, that's really odd. There's just elisp in there.
07:31	CookedGryphon	it's evaluating things automatically right?
07:33	CookedGryphon	magnars: oh!
07:33	magnars	It might be that the `clojure-find-ns`, `clojure-update-ns` `clojure-expected-ns` calls are doing some evaluating. But there's no nrepl integration going on, so that seems strange too.
07:33	CookedGryphon	magnars: I'm being really stupid
07:33	magnars	That happens to me some times too :)
07:34	CookedGryphon	magnars: I set up my keybindings in scratch to try it out, picked something which was unbound, went and tried it out
07:34	CookedGryphon	but of course while it wasn't bound in my scratch, it was already bound in clojure mode
07:34	magnars	Classic!
07:34	CookedGryphon	okay, sorry to bother you, i'll try again :P
07:34	magnars	No worries :)
07:40	magnars	piranha: Seems like this marmalade issue is a known bug without a fix atm: https://twitter.com/bbatsov/status/410747520940539904 - maybe try melpa?
07:41	piranha	magnars: oh, ok; should I just switch repo to melpa and it will work?
07:41	piranha	I have no idea how all those repos work with emacs to be honest :)
07:42	magnars	If you're comfortable living on the edge. melpa builds straight from master, so that comes with its ups and downs.
07:42	piranha	ah
07:43	piranha	I'm ok :-) I initially tried to install with el-get straight from github but then it has dependencies so I thought that I have to use some package manager... anyway, let me try
07:43	magnars	You should be able to grab the dependencies with el-get too.
07:44	rurumate	how to make clojure.pprint print things more pretty than, say, pr-str?
07:44	rurumate	'(clojure.pprint/pprint {12 13})
07:44	piranha	magnars: I should, but then I need to add them by hand :)
07:48	piranha	magnars: it works! :)
07:48	magnars	excellent! :)
07:49	piranha	magnars: it's just great, I love 'ar' and 'rf' the most right now :)
07:49	magnars	:D
07:49	piranha	how do you find files in project?
07:50	piranha	I mean how do you decide "this is a project"?
07:50	magnars	(locate-dominating-file default-directory "project.clj")
07:51	piranha	ah :-)
07:51	piranha	makes sense :P
07:51	piranha	magnars: again, thanks a lot! That's something really sweet :))
07:51	magnars	Glad to hear that :)
07:59	seriously_random	how do you apply a function on a vector? http://pastebin.com/PiPx9vAF
08:05	john2x	seriously_random: do you mean apply a function over each element in a vector?
08:06	seriously_random	john2x, funtion
08:09	seriously_random	john2x, got it! "(map rank hand)"
09:01	seriously_random	how to convert (2 3) to [2 3]?
09:02	arrdem	the seq vs vector difference shouldn't be important, but you can use (vector)
09:03	hyPiRion	seriously_random: vec
09:03	hyPiRion	,(vec '(2 3))
09:03	clojurebot	[2 3]
09:05	seriously_random	hyPiRion, (vec '(vals (frequencies ranks))) doesn't give me what I want
09:06	seriously_random	hyPiRion, works without '
09:07	arrdem	seriously_random: of course, because you're quoting the list of symbols, giving you a list of symbols rather than a list of expressions
09:25	deadghost	http://pastebin.com/psjkr9zC
09:25	deadghost	I'm not sure if I should be using recur here
09:28	clgv	deadghost: you can `reduce` over the list of predicate functions
09:30	deadghost	clgv, as in do I need to cram in recur somewhere to get TCO
09:30	deadghost	*as is
09:31	ivan	if anyone wants to become a "security researcher" just search github for everything that uses hiccup
09:31	ivan	filenames, source lines, etc can all contain HTML
09:39	clgv	deadghost: no. pure usage of `reduce`
09:40	deadghost	I mean the way I wrote it
09:40	deadghost	unless you're telling me shutup and just use reduce
09:43	amalloy	deadghost: if you were going to write it the way you did, recur is clearly better
09:43	amalloy	but (remove (apply some-fn
09:43	amalloy	(remove (apply some-fn fn-list) data-list) is much shorter
09:44	amalloy	reduce/remove would be okay, but not great
09:45	Anderkent	Can anyone help me with proxy? I'm trying to proxy a Reader java.io.reader, but I have no idea how to override only the abstract (read [char-array offest len]), and not the provided (read ^char [])
09:46	deadghost	amalloy, I was asking about recur because I totally don't know how to use recur
09:46	deadghost	coming from CL
09:46	deadghost	(newbie at CL as well)
09:49	amalloy	deadghost: recur is used when, inside of a function f, the last thing you do is call f again and immediately return its result
09:50	amalloy	(defn f [x] (if (zero? x) 0 (f (dec x)))), for example: the last call in the false-branch is to f, so it could be replaced with recur
09:50	deadghost	so usage wise would I replace f with recur
09:50	amalloy	in (defn f [x] (if (zero? x) 0 (inc (f (dec x))))), however, the recursive call to f is not the final action, so recur would not apply
09:50	amalloy	try it and see!
09:52	deadghost	hmm ok looks like
09:52	deadghost	"While not as general as tail-call-optimization, it allows most of the same elegant constructs, and offers the advantage of checking that calls to recur can only happen in a tail position."
09:53	Anderkent	holy god of all that's clojure, is this accurate and the only way? https://groups.google.com/d/msg/clojure/TVRsy4Gnf70/7DwezPG9digJ (2009)
09:53	deadghost	I take it this isn't exaclty the same as TCO
09:57	clgv	amalloy, deadghost: oh right the new `some-fn` fits awesome there
09:58	Anderkent	oh my god it's true... (defn -read-char<>-int-int [])
09:59	BobSchack	Anderkent are you using proxy for Java interop?
09:59	Anderkent	I tried to use proxy but I can't figure out how to override just a single overload
09:59	Anderkent	so I'm trying gen-class right now
10:01	amalloy	Anderkent: if you want to implement a Reader, you could extend the approach we used in flatland/io (https://github.com/flatland/io/tree/develop/src/flatland/io) for Streams
10:02	BobSchack	Anderkent here's a good link for when to java interop http://cemerick.com/2011/07/05/flowchart-for-choosing-the-right-clojure-type-definition-form/
10:03	Anderkent	BobSchack: ... that doesn't help at all. I'd LOVE to use proxy. It's not working. Telling me 'use proxy' does NOT help
10:04	Anderkent	amalloy: cool, thanks. I'd like to avoid having to write those wrappers, so if gen-class works I'd go with that. I only need one instance and the overriden behaviour is trivial (reader that writes to stdout whenever it's read from, to simulate stdin echo)
10:06	deadghost	ha it took me a few passes before I realized some-fn is a function
10:19	Anderkent	Can't get gen-class to work - probably doing something stupid. https://www.refheap.com/21673
10:20	nDuff	Anderkent: gen-class only happens during AOT compilation.
10:20	Anderkent	argh, i knew that
10:21	Anderkent	too used to the repl by now!
10:21	nDuff	Anderkent: ...by the way, did you provide a reproducer for the issues you were reporting w/ proxy?
10:21	nDuff	...ahh, n/m.
10:23	Anderkent	I take it as a confirmation that yes it's an issue and no i can't do it with proxy :)
10:28	Anderkent	yay, it works!
10:37	deadghost	hmm amalloy some-fn doesn't seem to like me
10:38	deadghost	((apply some-fn '(even?)) 2)
10:38	deadghost	results in nil
10:39	amalloy	uh, '(even?) is a list containing a symbol, not a function
10:42	deadghost	uhhhh
10:42	deadghost	I'm not sure what I'm missing then
10:42	deadghost	do I need to denote even? is a function or something?
10:44	Anderkent	deadghost: some-fn takes functions and returns a function to apply to the argument
10:44	Anderkent	i.e. &((some-fn even?) 2)
10:44	Anderkent	uhm
10:44	Anderkent	,((some-fn even?) 2)
10:44	clojurebot	true
10:44	Anderkent	if you have a list of functions as an argument, you'd do
10:45	`cbp	' will turn even? into a symbol
10:45	Anderkent	,((apply some-fn [even? pos?]) 3)
10:45	clojurebot	true
10:45	`cbp	use list or use a vector or something
10:47	deadghost	hmm what
10:48	deadghost	I thought ' was shorthand for list
10:48	deadghost	or am I mixing clojure up with cl
10:49	Anderkent	'() is a way of escaping a list and its contents -> '(1 2 3) is the same as (list 1 2 3). But if oyu have symbols in it, it becomes (list 1 2 'symbol 3)
10:51	`cbp	' is quote not list, its the same for cl
10:51	deadghost	I guess I just got an oversimplified explanation then
10:51	`cbp	its to prevent evaluation
10:56	Anderkent	right, i didnt mean to say it expands to (list), just that it gives you the same result
10:57	deadghost	more likely I didn't pay enough attention reading gentle introduction to symbolic computing
10:58	`cbp	when you run clojure code there are basically two stages: read and eval. read turns strings into data structures and some values. quote basically says stop right after read. It works with other data structures not just lists.
11:03	fredyr	deadghost: unlike other lisps, in clojure you mostly want to use vectors
11:04	ToBeReplaced	one day, i would love not to have to type clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY -- is there a ticket where a (queue) function or similar was discussed?
11:04	deadghost	fredyr, I never read up on why I'd prefer a vector over a list
11:04	tbaldridge	ToBeReplaced: yes there is, http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1078
11:05	ToBeReplaced	tbaldridge: thanks
11:05	Anderkent	deadghost: if you need random access, for example
11:06	Anderkent	also sometimes it just helps as a visual distinction between data and code.
11:06	deadghost	what really
11:06	deadghost	I thought vectors were like arrays
11:06	deadghost	and I needed to traverse through to a value
11:06	deadghost	or that arrays were a type of vector
11:06	Anderkent	that's not how arrays work!
11:06	deadghost	lolidk
11:06	tbaldridge	deadghost: you don't have to transverse an array
11:07	tbaldridge	*traverse
11:07	tbaldridge	arrays are basically a pointer lookup. arrayptr + (index * size of element)
11:08	tbaldridge	it can be harder to grow arrays however, so vectors fill that void. Fast random access plus fast grow
11:09	deadghost	does SICP cover this material?
11:09	Anderkent	is there a function to always add a single object to the end of a collection? I guess I can do (concat coll [x])
11:09	tbaldridge	Anderkent: conj will add to the end of vectors.
11:09	fredyr	conj does that
11:09	deadghost	I totally don't know my data structures
11:09	Anderkent	yeah the thing is i dont know if its a vector o rlist
11:09	mdrogalis	Is there a completely bullet-proof Clojure or Java function to check if a string is a number? When I say bullet proof I mean anything java.lang.Number.
11:09	Anderkent	,(conj '( 1 2 3) 4)
11:09	mdrogalis	Apache's utils don't catch decimals.
11:09	clojurebot	(4 1 2 3)
11:09	tbaldridge	Anderkent: convert it first with vec perhaps
11:10	Anderkent	meh
11:10	Anderkent	I could :P
11:10	tbaldridge	Anderkent: if it is already a vector I think vec is a no op
11:11	Anderkent	yeah it just feels wasted since i'll only ever read it once, and will read it like a list
11:11	Anderkent	i.e. it's (string.join \newline (concat lines [""]))
11:11	tbaldridge	Anderkent: yeah, then concat is probably best
11:11	tbaldridge	That's what this does after all:
11:11	CookedGryphon	mdrogalis: ,(number? (read-string "123.2f"))
11:12	ToBeReplaced	tbaldridge: it seems like there was disagreement and now nothing is occurring -- does it seem like it's stuck to you? fwiw i like queue/queue* since list/list* and no clear match to vec/vector
11:12	Anderkent	actually, I guess the best answer is (str (map (str % "\n) lines)) :P
11:12	tbaldridge	, `(1 2 3 4 ~2)
11:12	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 2)
11:12	tbaldridge	, '`(1 2 3 4 ~2)
11:12	clojurebot	(clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list 1) (clojure.core/list 2) (clojure.core/list 3) (clojure.core/list 4) ...))
11:12	tbaldridge	actually, ick, that's rather gross...lol
11:13	gfredericks	ToBeReplaced: que/queue :)
11:14	tbaldridge	ToBeReplaced: I think the latest changes are what Rich is looking for. Perhaps ping clojure-dev?
11:14	ToBeReplaced	que/queue is funny
11:16	dav	ok I'm banging my head against a wall simply trying to call some java classes..
11:16	dav	hoping I can get a bit of guidance
11:16	dav	I got a jar file off for XLLoop on here: http://xlloop.sourceforge.net/
11:16	dav	There's no explicit support for clojure but that shouldn't matter.
11:16	gfredericks	tbaldridge: I don't think vec is a noop; looks like it converts to a seq then back to a vector
11:17	dav	They have a simple bit of (Java) code under "Usage"
11:17	tbaldridge	really? ick
11:17	gfredericks	,(let [v (vec (range 1000000))] (time (count (vec v))))
11:17	clojurebot	#<OutOfMemoryError java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space>
11:17	dav	I can't, for the life of me, instantiate the FunctionServer class
11:17	gfredericks	&(let [v (vec (range 1000000))] (time (count (vec v))))
11:17	lazybot	⇒ "Elapsed time: 2274.815886 msecs" 1000000
11:18	Anderkent	dav: what errors are you getting? Is the class on the classpath?
11:18	gfredericks	&(let [v (set (range 1000000))] (time (count (set v))))
11:18	dav	Anderkent: I've put the jar file in the resources folder of my lein project
11:18	dav	Anderkent: the folder is in the classpath
11:19	Anderkent	dav: I'm not sure if that'll work. What happens if you type (import 'org.boris.xlloop.FunctionServer) in the repl?
11:19	Bronsa	gfredericks: ouch
11:19	gfredericks	&42
11:19	dav	Anderkent: ClassNotFoundException
11:20	dav	Anderkent: where else should I put it?
11:21	Anderkent	dav: lein tries to stick to the dependency-managed way. I don't think there's an easy way. For a local setup you can try something like http://www.elangocheran.com/blog/2013/03/installing-jar-files-locally-for-leiningen-2/
11:21	Anderkent	but the preffered way is to build a pom.xml for that jar and deploy it to clojars :P
11:22	dav	Anderkent: the folder is definitely in (seq (.getURLs (java.lang.ClassLoader/getSystemClassLoader)))
11:22	Anderkent	For a really hacky way you can try unpacking the jar (it's just a .zip file) and putting the .class files on the classpath (in the resource/ directory, for example)
11:22	dav	Anderkent: ok let me have a look.
11:22	Anderkent	yeah, but jars are special
11:23	dav	Anderkent: clojars you mean upload the jar back onto some public repository?
11:23	Anderkent	dav: it involves more than that. You'd have to create a file that describes dependenceis of that jar, its verion etc.
11:24	Anderkent	(uh, I kinda assumed you're using lein. Are you?)
11:24	dav	Anderkent: yes I am
11:24	Anderkent	ok cool.
11:24	dav	Anderkent: ok but it feels unsatisfying that I'd have to upload a jar online to be allowed to use it..
11:24	dav	Anderkent: I'll try that blog post you linked to
11:25	mdrogalis	,(number? (read-string "12 lol"))
11:25	clojurebot	true
11:25	Anderkent	dav: there is good reason for that. see https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/wiki/Repeatability
11:25	mdrogalis	CookedGryphon ^
11:26	Anderkent	mdrogalis: read-string only reads one expression from the string
11:26	Anderkent	kinda funny how it doesnt even tell you how much it read, or throw an exception if there's stuff left over..
11:26	mdrogalis	Anderkent: Yep.
11:26	mdrogalis	It does what it wants.
11:28	CookedGryphon	mdrogalis: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2640169/whats-the-easiest-way-to-parse-numbers-in-clojure
11:29	CookedGryphon	mdrogalis: half way down it has a neat hack to pull the matchNumber method from clojure's reader
11:29	CookedGryphon	and invoke it to give you the number or nil
11:29	wei__	given java.jdbc/update!, what's the best way to write an update-and-return! function?
11:30	mdrogalis	CookedGryphon: Hah, that actually works.
11:35	Anderkent	argh why is it so hard to decide if strings should have a trailing newline or not
11:38	dav	Anderkent: mvn install-file worked after a few tries :) thanks a lot.
11:42	Bronsa	dnolen: ping
11:54	deadghost	clojure doesn't have second, third, etc?
11:55	mdrogalis	,(second [1 2])
11:55	clojurebot	2
11:55	mdrogalis	,(doc third)
11:55	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
11:55	Bronsa	uuuh just found a tools.reader bug thanks to tools.analyzer.jvm and eastwood
11:55	vijaykiran	deadghost: use nth for stuff beyond second
11:55	teslanick	,(nth [1 2 3 4] 3)
11:55	clojurebot	4
11:55	deadghost	oh huh
11:55	deadghost	it's kinda funny it has second
11:56	Anderkent	it's because pairs are common
11:56	vijaykiran	deadghost: second is bit more useful/readable when you are recursing over stuff
11:56	deadghost	I see
12:00	Anderkent	hm, what's the idiom for executing an expression in a different namespace? (binding [ns (find-ns 'ns)] ...) seems a bunch of boilerplate
12:01	tbaldridge	Anderkent: in-ns should do that.....but why would you want to?
12:01	Bronsa	Anderkent: that won't work as you'd expect in some cases
12:04	Anderkent	well, basically i'm simulating a repl - feeding a list of strings to clojure.main/repl. I want to switch to the user ns so that the output is as if someone was sitting there typing
12:04	Anderkent	tbaldridge: afaik in-ns just switches to it, it doesnt take a body expr
12:04	tbaldridge	Anderkent: well switch to it, run your code, then switch back
12:05	Anderkent	ugly!
12:05	Anderkent	i'd rather (binding) wrap it than (try finally) :P
12:05	tbaldridge	,(do (in-ns 'foo) (println ns) (in-ns 'user))
12:05	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: println in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
12:05	tbaldridge	,(do (in-ns 'foo) (clojure.core/println ns) (in-ns 'user))
12:05	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: ns in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
12:05	deadghost	hmm that's kinda funny
12:05	deadghost	nil isn't true or false
12:05	Anderkent	:) joy of uninitialized namespaces
12:06	deadghost	I guess I need to check for it
12:06	Anderkent	,(if nil :yes :no)
12:06	clojurebot	:no
12:06	Bronsa	Anderkent: binding ns won't work. (binding [ns some-ns] some-ns-symbol) will fail
12:06	Anderkent	Bronsa: that's okay
12:06	Bronsa	the compiler will try to resolve some-ns-symbol before in the current ns
12:06	tbaldridge	Anderkent: yeah, so do what I suggested inside a try/finally. And it'll work as you want.
12:06	Bronsa	/ before/d
12:06	Anderkent	my thing already works. I just wondered if there was something like (with-ns)
12:06	tbaldridge	but once again, if you need to do that, I'll question your code structure.
12:07	deadghost	,(false? nil)
12:07	clojurebot	false
12:07	Anderkent	deadghost: false? checks for 'is this Boolean.false'. There's rarely any reason to call it
12:07	deadghost	I see
12:11	Anderkent	ugh, is there something that takes a predicate and basically returns [(filter pred list) (filter (not pred) list)] ?
12:11	Anderkent	(group-by pred) works, I guess. But ugly.
12:15	murtaza52	I want to sort a map by its value, is there a lib fn for it ?
12:15	seangrove	Anderkent: partition-by ?
12:16	seangrove	murtaza52: You want the keys in the map to be sorted according to their values, or just the values sorted?
12:16	murtaza52	keys sorted by the values
12:17	Anderkent	seangrove: partition is not the same thing
12:17	Anderkent	,(partition-by odd? [1 2 3 4])
12:17	clojurebot	((1) (2) (3) (4))
12:17	Anderkent	,[(filter odd? [1 2 3 4]) (filter (comp not odd?) [1 2 3 4])]
12:17	clojurebot	[(1 3) (2 4)]
12:17	seangrove	Anderkent: True
12:18	Anderkent	it's ok, group-by works pretty nicely in retrospect
12:18	hyPiRion	,((juxt filter remove) odd? [1 2 3 4])
12:18	clojurebot	[(1 3) (2 4)]
12:19	murtaza52	seangrove: I am trying to sort the keys by values, and also need to preserve the structure as a map
12:19	Anderkent	hyPiRion: cool, but it does two passes right?
12:20	hyPiRion	Anderkent: sure, is that a problem?
12:21	seangrove	murtaza52: Hrm, not sure, I think all the sorted-maps compare keys for sorting
12:21	seangrove	murtaza52: Probably hints that you should use a different data structure
12:21	Anderkent	not in practice, only in terms of elegance :P
12:21	Anderkent	but thanks anyway
12:22	Anderkent	In retrospect the group-by solution worked out pretty nicely
12:25	stuartsierra	Re `in-ns` discussion earlier, if you really want to create Vars in another namespace, use `intern`.
12:27	murtaza52	seangrove: thanks sorted it by converting it into a vector :)
12:27	seangrove	murtaza52: Yeah, sounds considerably easier :)
12:28	Anderkent	stuartsierra: I don't! I just want the repl to run in a different context.
12:28	stuartsierra	oh nevermind then :)
12:30	coventry	Anderkent: Which repl? How is (ns 'ns-symbol) insufficient?
12:31	Anderkent	it's not an interactive repl. I'm using the clojure repl, feeding it strings, and looking at sdout
12:31	Anderkent	but it starts in my current ns instead of user
12:31	Anderkent	thus, wanting to run a function in a different ns context
12:32	coventry	Oh. I do a lot of that, and (binding) is the best solution I've seen so far.
12:33	Anderkent	a lot of running functions in different contexts, or a lot of feeding repls strings?
12:33	Anderkent	because if the second, then I definitely want to steal your code :P
12:37	coventry	Running functions in different contexts. I mostly feed strings straight to the reader. https://github.com/coventry/troncle/blob/master/src/troncle/core.clj#L9
12:38	coventry	What's the advantage to driving clojure via the repl?
12:38	Anderkent	I'm writing doctest
12:41	Anderkent	i.e. put copy your repl session into docstrings / a file, and I'll run the code and verify that the output is the same
12:41	Anderkent	and now not only am i stuck on the airport, the wifi seems to be giving out. Gah.
12:43	coventry	Nice.
12:44	TimMc	Anderkent: Negati id not recei last communica HKSSHSHHHTTT <connection dropped>
12:46	TimMc	I kind of wish digital stream failure modes were more like analog.
12:48	tbaldridge	Anderkent: actually that's probably the best reason I've heard for doing this sort of thing.
12:51	arrdem	bitemyapp: final survived. one haskell was sighted, several scalas were slain and monads where nowhere to be found
12:52	arrdem	bitemyapp: the haskell was surprisingly helpful... the scalas all put up a fight
12:54	seangrove	Any kind of distinct-by function?
12:56	gfredericks	reiddraper: do you have any thoughts on some way of multiplying the trial times by some fixed number for a given test run? E.g., "run my tests with 10 times as many runs as usual"
12:56	gfredericks	use case is I want quick tests in dev but longer/thorough tests in CI
12:56	gfredericks	so an env variable or some such would be the most convenient
12:57	gfredericks	I just peeked at simple-check.clojure-test and it looked like there isn't such a thing currently
12:57	reiddraper	gfredericks: yeah, i think something like that would be useful, but not yet sure how to best do it. i'd like to keep the quick-check function itself as magic-free as possible, and have everything be explicit
12:57	arrdem	nDuff: bitemyapp was helping me out yesterday in my studying for a type theory heavy programming languages final test.
12:57	gfredericks	reiddraper: is doing it in defspec too messy?
12:58	arrdem	nDuff: I'm referring to languages as animals because my sleep deprived brain thinks it's funny
13:00	stompyj	arrdem: specific languages? or theory?
13:01	arrdem	stompyj: type inference over typed lambda calculus + scala :/
13:01	arrdem	stompyj: that and multiple inheritance behavior was about 75% of it
13:01	stompyj	wow
13:01	stompyj	scala in schools, thats awesome
13:02	reiddraper	gfredericks: that's probably ok. i think in my ideal, it'd be something you'd pass in on the command line to 'lein test'
13:02	stompyj	when I was in school we used C, Scheme, Prolog, ML and that's about it
13:04	reiddraper	gfredericks: but yeah, i think defspec is probably a reasonable place
13:04	gfredericks	reiddraper: okay; if I end up needing this soon I'll draft it up on a branch and can open a PR for discussion when it feels ready
13:05	reiddraper	gfredericks: awesome, thanks. hopefully the move to contrib will happen sooner than later, i need to go bug people to start replying to the clojure-dev email
13:06	reiddraper	gfredericks: so, actually, if you don't mind, can you reply to it as well, just basically pasting what i wrote, but replacing with your name. (that is, if your cool with donating to contrib)
13:07	gfredericks	reiddraper: I'm curious what happens if I'm not cool with it; but my curiosity is not enough to overtake my coolness with it
13:07	reiddraper	gfredericks: feel free to dm me
13:10	gfredericks	OSS & licenses is so weird
13:16	technomancy	copyright assignment isn't so much about licenses
13:19	justin_smith	technomancy: well in the case of GNU at least, it is about being able to legally enforce licenses (if it came to that).
13:20	justin_smith	They can't easily take someone to court for unlicensed usage if they don't have all copyright holders on board, copyright assignment makes this much easier.
13:21	technomancy	yeah, GNU is a special-case on account of being fairly high-profile though
13:22	technomancy	they've basically painted a big target on their back
13:25	justin_smith	right, and at this point some high percentage of computers run their code, nearly all if you count things that came out of their compilers
13:25	justin_smith	hmm... maybe not in embedded I guess
13:26	arrdem	justin_smith: I don't think that the GPL2/3 covers the results of a GPL'd tool... does it?
13:26	justin_smith	no, of course not
13:26	justin_smith	just a metric of their ubiquity
13:26	justin_smith	not how far their licensing concerns go
13:27	justin_smith	also copyright assignment is often a concern for smaller projects if they want to be able to dual license
13:27	justin_smith	that is really hard to do if there are multiple copyright holders, and it rightly scares away any takers for alternate paid licenses
13:29	technomancy	yeah, I'm thinking more in the context of contrib
13:29	dnolen	pure React CLJS interface wip - https://github.com/swannodette/om
13:29	clojurebot	Huh?
13:30	arrdem	gfredericks: you have a CA in, right?
13:30	TimMc	arrdem: That's debatable.
13:30	yazirian	om.dom? what a missed opportunity for om.nom
13:30	arrdem	TimMc: how is that possible...
13:30	technomancy	but actually now I realize I don't know the motivation behind the CA at all any more
13:31	technomancy	http://p.hagelb.org/mystery.gif
13:31	gfredericks	arrdem: totes
13:31	TimMc	arrdem: Only to the extent that portions of the output were present in the GPL'd source.
13:31	dnolen	example using om w/ #js literals and :include-macros https://gist.github.com/swannodette/7915826
13:32	TimMc	arrdem: If you have a GPL'd parser-generator, it has to output some source code based on templates that are carried in the generator's own source.
13:32	dnolen	all om.dom functions inline into direct React calls, so no overhead for standard use
13:33	TimMc	I don't know how yacc (or is it bison?) handles that, license-wise.
13:33	seangrove	dnolen: Interesting, the :include-macros cleans up the ns form
13:33	dnolen	seangrove: yep
13:33	arrdem	I suspect that the short answer is nobody cares, or has tried to enforce license over those stubs.
13:34	seangrove	I'd prefer hiccup-style data structures, but that could be overlayed pretty easily
13:34	dnolen	seangrove: and because :include-macros is explicit it doesn't cause unintended madness
13:34	dnolen	seangrove: sure
13:34	bitemyapp	arrdem: glad I was useful.
13:39	seangrove	overlaid*, goodness
13:41	seangrove	dnolen: Ah, I see, the :shouldComponentUpdate is where you get most of the speed up from
13:41	seangrove	#js {} doesn't look too bad actually
13:41	bitemyapp	arrdem: using a GPL'd tool doesn't GPL the output of the tool. The GPL'd code has to live within the output somehow.
13:41	bitemyapp	arrdem: it's pretty easy to reason about even if the implications are deep. Think of it like a tangible infection.
13:42	coventry	~/.lein/indices is taking up over a gig of space. Is that typical?
13:42	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
13:42	bitemyapp	coventry: I don't even have one of those.
13:42	bitemyapp	what did you do?
13:42	coventry	bitemyapp: I think it's generated by some command like "lein search"
13:43	bitemyapp	oh.
13:43	bitemyapp	I always know what I want ^_^
13:43	danneu	What's the general use-case for using stateful sessions as opposed to Ring's functional sessions?
13:44	gfredericks	classic tradeoff of noise vs magic?
13:46	bitemyapp	danneu: stateful sessions aren't a good idea. Stash state in the request map.
13:46	bitemyapp	danneu: dynamic vars aren't async-safe.
13:46	bitemyapp	~dynamicvars are not async-safe
13:46	clojurebot	I don't understand.
13:46	bitemyapp	~dynamicvars is are not async-safe
13:46	clojurebot	c'est bon!
13:46	bitemyapp	ugly wording. ugh.
13:47	bitemyapp	~dynamic vars
13:47	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
13:47	bitemyapp	~dynamicvars
13:47	clojurebot	dynamicvars is are not async-safe
13:47	danneu	Ring's functional sessions are refreshing after a rather hellish experience with stateful sessions in a large Rails app
13:47	bitemyapp	wow that is horrific
13:47	bitemyapp	danneu: what are the functional sessions exactly?
13:48	bitemyapp	I don't really pay attention to what the cool kids use anymore.
13:48	justin_smith	bitemyapp: the session is replaced by the session you return
13:48	justin_smith	rather than being mutated as you go along
13:49	justin_smith	the one gotcha being if you forget to return the session in your response, POOF no more session
13:49	justin_smith	otherwise it is perfect
13:49	bitemyapp	lol.
13:49	sritchie	bitemyapp: I went down a serious deploy tools rabbit hole last night
13:49	sritchie	jesus
13:49	sritchie	docker
13:49	bitemyapp	sritchie: welcome to my bunny hutch then.
13:49	bitemyapp	sritchie: ...are you okay?
13:50	sritchie	:) the docker pitch seems just so, so good
13:50	sritchie	I'm working on getting a dev environment up with a single "vagrant up"
13:50	sritchie	and it seemed like separate docker containers for riemann, graphite, nginx, etc was the cleanest way…
13:51	sritchie	but now I'm degrading, falling back to the simpler thing of little ansible playbooks
13:51	sritchie	bitemyapp: (all to avoid pallet. sorry dudes.)
13:51	technomancy	being on debian stable is great; no temptation to try out half-baked stuff like that when I'm on a kernel that's too old
13:51	sritchie	bitemyapp: any hot/cold reaction to the buzzwords I'm throwing out, from an experienced bunny hutcher such as yourself?
13:52	seangrove	sritchie: What makes you want to avoid pallet so much?
13:52	justin_smith	technomancy: yeah, I am tempted to upgrade my ubuntu install that shipped with this box to debian stable
13:52	technomancy	doooo eeeet
13:52	sritchie	seangrove: I've actually used pallet quite a bit, but vagrant does the VM thing much better
13:52	bitemyapp	sritchie: I avoid pallet, I don't have much use for containers or stateful images. I automate mechanistically with idempotent composable tasks
13:53	bitemyapp	sritchie: if docker makes you happy, cool, but it doesn't save me anything because I don't put multiple apps on a single server in a way that needs containment.
13:53	bitemyapp	docker, to my mind, is most useful as an abstraction to cgroups as much as anything else.
13:53	gfredericks	technomancy: I've been using nix for weeks now; no regrets
13:53	bitemyapp	gfredericks: treating you well eh?
13:54	bbloom	bitemyapp: yeah, i have to agree. i'm not sure i understand the fuss about docker. i mean it's pretty great for people building PaaS stuff, but i'm usually only deploying 1 app per host
13:54	gfredericks	I don't understand channels yet, with the result being I don't know how to install older versions of things
13:54	justin_smith	seangrove: my suspicion (and the reason I avoid it) is that because it seems over-architected. Same author as ritz, and I have similar isssues with that design.
13:54	justin_smith	or maybe I am just too stupid to use such tools
13:54	gfredericks	but other than that it does exactly what I want
13:54	bitemyapp	bbloom: well said.
13:54	technomancy	gfredericks: yeah, my experience has been that you don't need to understand too many layers to get it to DWIM
13:54	sritchie	justin_smith: it's very difficult to find my way around their new stuff
13:55	sritchie	BUT, the code sharing situation isn't great yet in ansible
13:55	bitemyapp	sritchie: in my view of the universe, unless I'm concerned about containment (offering a PaaS to untrusted users that might smack each other around), all I need is automation and the ability to "bootstrap my universe" from my automation code.
13:55	sritchie	just trying to play with all the new tooling and get a feel for how to build this up
13:55	bitemyapp	sritchie: I use Fabric + Cuisine in Python more often than not for this stuff. It is not fancy at all.
13:55	bitemyapp	But I write tasks that work, quickly.
13:55	bbloom	bitemyapp: i can see some usefulness for app-per-host containerization, but it's not worth the overhead of yet-another-tool when i'd already need a machine image, some config scripts, etc
13:55	technomancy	ansible doesn't strike me as particularly fancy
13:56	bitemyapp	sritchie: https://github.com/bitemyapp/fabric_recipes examples on my github as usual.
13:56	sritchie	bitemyapp: yeah, that's fair. down the road, I want to get to the point where every feature branch I have for this web app pushes a container to a single server, heroku style
13:56	bitemyapp	technomancy: they went to a lot of trouble to add the MOAR_SPEED mode.
13:56	sritchie	in fact, the dokku project with docker does all of that
13:56	technomancy	hm; yeah this is my uneducated opinion
13:56	bitemyapp	sritchie: buhhhhh. okay but is that really something that impacts users?
13:57	sritchie	haha, no, I don't want to do it now
13:57	bitemyapp	you just really need to automate deployment and provisioning, quick-cheap-now, right?
13:57	sritchie	I want to spin on totally useless tech stack things
13:57	bbloom	it seems to me that virtualization is only ever going to be able to achieve incremental workflow improvements
13:57	sritchie	bitemyapp: yeah, what I really need is a local setup for riemann
13:57	sritchie	and the ability to bounce a config really quickly
13:57	bbloom	we just need better tools that are built for isolation from the start
13:57	sritchie	then push that up to an EC2 instance and forget about it
13:57	bitemyapp	sritchie: that's how I use my fabric scripts.
13:57	bbloom	the go folks seem to understand that, and so they just cheat (in a great way) by doing fully static linking :-P
13:57	hiredman	mesosphere!
13:58	bitemyapp	bbloom: native Haskell is statically linked dontchaknow.
13:58	bitemyapp	dynamic linking was probably one of those billion dollar mistakes.
13:59	bbloom	bitemyapp: yeah, i think we need to differentiate between late & dynamic linking. late linking is an implementation detail. dynamic linking is a bad idea :-P
13:59	bbloom	late, but not dynamic, doesn't seem to exist anywhere i know of tho
13:59	stompyj	infrastructure and deployment is a ridiculously exciting area of innovation right now
13:59	bbloom	i want to link against a SHA1 :-)
13:59	bitemyapp	bbloom: late linking doesn't meaningfully exist, you know that.
14:00	bitemyapp	a reminder that https://github.com/winterTTr/ace-jump-mode exists
14:00	bbloom	this reminds me: guys. we need to start saying that clojure is "Latently typed" instead of dynamic :-)
14:01	bitemyapp	,(nil [:muh-data])
14:01	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Can't call nil, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
14:01	bitemyapp	smart-ass compiler is a smart-ass.
14:02	bitemyapp	,(let [my-fn nil] (my-fn [:muh-data]))
14:02	clojurebot	#<NullPointerException java.lang.NullPointerException>
14:02	bitemyapp	bbloom: looks dynamically typed to me.
14:02	mdrogalis	bitemyapp: Google something trivial for me. :P
14:02	bitemyapp	mdrogalis: wutcha need?
14:02	bbloom	bitemyapp: dynamic implies, to me, change over time
14:02	mdrogalis	bitemyapp: How do I upgrade Leiningen?
14:03	bitemyapp	mdrogalis: lein upgrade
14:03	mdrogalis	Gotta keep you sharp.
14:03	mdrogalis	You didn't Google that
14:03	bitemyapp	mdrogalis: didn't have to.
14:03	bbloom	bitemyapp: i think you'd agree that clojure types are dramatically less dynamic than ruby or python :-P
14:03	mdrogalis	This was a sad exercise :\|
14:03	bitemyapp	,(let [x "woohoo!"] (println (type x) (let [x 100] (println (type x)))
14:03	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
14:03	bitemyapp	,(let [x "woohoo!"] (println (type x)) (let [x 100] (println (type x)))
14:03	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
14:03	bitemyapp	,(let [x "woohoo!"] (println (type x)) (let [x 100] (println (type x))
14:03	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
14:03	bitemyapp	,(let [x "woohoo!"] (println (type x)) (let [x 100] (println (type x))))
14:03	clojurebot	java.lang.String\njava.lang.Long\n
14:04	seangrove	Don't worry, we'll all wait for you to get it right bitemyapp
14:04	bitemyapp	bbloom: looks dynamically typed to me.
14:04	bitemyapp	seangrove: I blame the PARENS
14:04	bitemyapp	seangrove: typing lisp code in irssi is tedious.
14:04	seangrove	bitemyapp: Too many of 'em, I'd say. I prefer bangs instead
14:04	bitemyapp	!:a {:a 1}! => 1
14:04	bitemyapp	seangrove: I like the way you think. It can feel like writing Spanish.
14:04	seangrove	See? So much more legible!
14:04	bitemyapp	!AVISO!
14:05	justin_smith	¡FTFY!
14:06	gfredericks	bbloom: you're saying ruby/python are dynamic (as in "change over time") because the type definitions themselves are dynamic?
14:06	gfredericks	rather than an object being able to change its type, which afaik is not the case
14:07	seangrove	gfredericks: Oh, that'd be cool though. I wonder how it'd be abused.
14:07	tbaldridge	gfredericks: oh you can soooo change a type in python
14:07	bbloom	gfredericks: a bigger issue is variables
14:07	bbloom	gfredericks: a variable's type can change when the value in that variable changes
14:07	gfredericks	tbaldridge: python I know less about
14:08	gfredericks	bbloom: okay so they're dynamic by virtue of having untyped local variables, which clojure doesn't?
14:08	tbaldridge	gfredericks: each object in Python has a __class__ attr. Change that to change the class type
14:09	gfredericks	tbaldridge: that's the grossest thing I've heard all day
14:09	justin_smith	that's basically how transients work
14:09	arohner	bbloom: I've been threatening for a while to start SHA1'ing the macroexpanded source of my fns
14:09	bbloom	gfredericks: that's one thing. the word dynamic implies change to me. i was just discussing with dnolen how clojure's vars are ALL dynamic variables. the :dynamic keyword is a misnomer, it really means :threadlocal
14:09	justin_smith	flag on the data structure
14:09	bbloom	arohner: hash all the things!
14:09	arohner	and then serialize all the things!
14:10	technomancy	eh; dynamic can apply to scope, not just type
14:10	bbloom	technomancy: yeah, that was about scope. i think the word dynamic invokes a notion of time
14:11	bbloom	which implies a notion of chnage
14:11	gfredericks	,(letfn [(f [x] (println (type x)))] (f "foo") (f :bar))
14:11	clojurebot	java.lang.String\nclojure.lang.Keyword\n
14:11	seangrove	bbloom: You thinking along the lines of stuartsierra's article?
14:11	bbloom	which?
14:11	seangrove	http://stuartsierra.com/2013/03/29/perils-of-dynamic-scope
14:11	seangrove	dynamic vs indefinite extent
14:12	bbloom	well now we're getting in to a discussion of scope :-P
14:12	seangrove	bbloom: Well, I think the idea of extent was interesting, emphasizing time/when
14:13	bbloom	yeah, extent is a scope construct. it's like the area of influence of a binding
14:13	bbloom	dynamic extent is binding in time
14:13	bbloom	lexical extent is binding in space
14:14	seangrove	Never had any of these problems as a kid.
14:18	gfredericks	oh man and they were system-globals too, not just process globals; why can't we have more languages like that.
14:18	bitemyapp	I started with GW-BASIC.
14:18	bitemyapp	pretty depressing language.
14:19	justin_smith	gfredericks: that is still how haskell does it, makes naming so much easier when you are limited to one letter
14:19	justin_smith	and with unicode you won't run out of identifiers either
14:19	tbaldridge	got my start there as well. then on to qbasic, then DJGPP
14:19	BobSchack	Anyone here familiar with fressian? I'm writing a JS port and trying to figure out what to do with Longs since JS only has 32 bit ints
14:19	bitemyapp	justin_smith: beg-pardon?
14:19	justin_smith	ahh, djgpp, have not seen that character sequence in so long
14:19	tbaldridge	:-)
14:20	bitemyapp	BobSchack: stringify.
14:20	alandipert	TI-BASIC was a nice language but i found it too academic, people only write it in school
14:20	justin_smith	bitemyapp: teasing about the idiomatic usage of one-letter names in so much haskell code
14:20	gfredericks	my program's README was a piece of folded notebook paper with pencil scribbles on it explaining what each variable was for
14:20	bitemyapp	justin_smith: you can eliminate this complaint by writing point-free code and not naming variables at all.
14:21	bitemyapp	justin_smith: much like my preferred solution to, "there are gendered pronouns in the documentation" --- "we now have no documentation"
14:22	justin_smith	not a complaint, a tease, I use one letter names for things with short scope of usage myself
14:23	bitemyapp	justin_smith: you've got me curious, checking my code to see what that looks like.
14:23	stuartsierra	I remember djgpp!
14:24	bitemyapp	I see, db-uri, query, limit, offset, args, paginated, num-results, services, request.
14:24	bitemyapp	kw, extant, ensured, new-reg.
14:25	coventry	You should implement it in swearjure.
14:25	justin_smith	gfredericks: assembly, the variable names are address offsets :)
14:26	gfredericks	bitemyapp: that must be clojure code; haskell doesn't have anything nearly as sophisticated as dashes in names
14:26	gfredericks	justin_smith: it's still local to a particular machine
14:26	bitemyapp	gfredericks: right, that's the example I pulled from. Clojure.
14:26	justin_smith	ahh! universal variable bindings
14:26	bitemyapp	gfredericks: specifically from berossus which I just open sourced.
14:26	gfredericks	$google github berossus
14:27	gfredericks	lazybot are you still trying to make a large set for me
14:27	justin_smith	he'll google it for you, but only if it isn't his own project
14:27	bitemyapp	https://github.com/bitemyapp/berossus
14:27	bitemyapp	gfredericks: REST API wrapper for Datomic.
14:28	gfredericks	bitemyapp: oh so you don't have to futz with the HTTPs?
14:28	hiredman	gfredericks: dns?
14:29	gfredericks	hiredman: hey that's a good idea; DNS as a language platform
14:29	bitemyapp	gfredericks: roughly. Their REST API (Datomic's built-in) didn't make me happy.
14:29	justin_smith	bitemyapp: the readme claims that what the project does is up to me. I have decided it is a hot-or-not clone implemented in rails
14:29	gfredericks	DotComJure is a clojure-like lisp that runs on DNS
14:29	bitemyapp	gfredericks: we're making a Python OEM for Datomic.
14:29	bitemyapp	which will also be open sourced.
14:29	hiredman	vllm: very large lisp machine
14:30	gfredericks	the helloworld involves godaddy
14:30	gfredericks	and costs anywhere between $50 and $500 depending on whether you minify your code first
14:32	coventry	If you want them to be truly global, you need some kind of reconciliation framework to deal with network partitions. The bitcoin ledger is probably a better platform.
14:33	bitemyapp	coventry: bitcoin has a built-in script language.
14:33	bitemyapp	of sorts.
14:33	justin_smith	ooo - maybe bitcoin itself could be leveraged as the vm
14:33	hiredman	I wonder if anyone has tried to grab .lisp from icann
14:33	justin_smith	later upgrading to bytecoin and shortcoin as scaling becomes neccessary
14:34	bitemyapp	you guys are in a really weird mood today.
14:34	technomancy	.paren
14:34	technomancy	bitemyapp: "today"?
14:35	justin_smith	I crashed my bicycle on black ice today and did a belly flop on the asphalt, I am always a little loopy after things like that
14:36	bitemyapp	justin_smith: :(
14:37	justin_smith	I survived with some bruises and some bicycle repairs needed
14:42	bitemyapp	justin_smith: well I hope the repairs are minimal.
14:42	bitemyapp	justin_smith: and that you didn't crack a rib.
14:43	justin_smith	thanks
15:09	TimMc	gfredericks: TI-89 BASIC was my first programming language.
15:10	TimMc	You could actually put the global vars in different "folders", so there's that.
15:10	TimMc	Data composition was achieved via stringified arrays inside other arrays.
15:10	justin_smith	sounds like how tcl does "namespaces"
15:11	TimMc	Oh, but you had to like... switch to the other folder before saving.
15:11	justin_smith	(for the folders thing that is)
15:11	TimMc	I was half-way to reinventing OOP before someone got me started learning Java.
15:12	justin_smith	heh, I did something similar (and totally incompetantly) with c++ and inventing fp, before discovering common lisp
15:21	amalloy	TimMc: haha, that happened to me too. invented objects on the ti-89, with methods as strings. i forget how parameter passing worked; i think i did replacement on the string $1 as first arg, or something
15:24	TimMc	amalloy: I was trying to turn the calculator into a PDA. Did you have a grand project as well?
15:24	amalloy	game programming
15:25	TimMc	nod
15:25	TimMc	I got partway through writing Mancala (2-player over the link cord) before getting fed up.
15:26	TimMc	I still have that calculator; it's at least 15 years old at this point.
15:27	amalloy	the link cord was such a pain that it was easier to just pass the calculator back and forth
15:29	danneu	Is there an example of http://yogthos.github.io/lib-noir/noir.validation.html usage?
15:29	TimMc	amalloy: There was also the lack of friends.
15:30	TimMc	(Well, friends with TI-89s...)
15:46	malbertife	join #lisp
15:46	danneu	oh yeah, i can read source
15:46	mdrogalis	malbertife: The irony is that you're already there.
15:48	malbertife	mdrogalis: :)
15:49	bitemyapp	why do I have to install ansi-terminal to use a concurrency library?
15:49	`cbp	wat
15:49	bitemyapp	`cbp: Iuno. LVars be weird yo. How are you doing?
15:50	`cbp	trying to finish work stuff so i can be useful and finish revise :(
15:53	gfredericks	http://marmalade-repo.org/packages/cider-0.4.0.tar => "Don't have any version of cider.tar"
15:54	bitemyapp	`cbp: don't sweat it! Life stuff is more important than open source.
15:54	bitemyapp	`cbp: if you need any help, ping me.
15:54	gfredericks	TimMc: I seriously doubt my TI-83 had folders for variables
15:55	danneu	i like this validation lib https://github.com/logaan/vlad
15:55	gfredericks	amalloy: I think I got a function link-cable version of hangman working; it was tedious and was not once used for pleasure
15:55	gfredericks	functional*
15:56	gfredericks	the funnest thing I ever wrote was A) a snake game, and B) a version that played by itself
15:56	TimMc	My minesweeper game took like... 30 seconds to display a move.
15:56	gfredericks	once I collected 12 calculators and ran the auto snake program on all of them simultaneously like a horse race
15:56	amalloy	gfredericks: actually the 83 sooooorta had folders for variables. you could use lists: each list gets a 4-character name, and can hold 0+ numbers
15:56	TimMc	haha, nice
15:57	emaphis`	hmm. my first programming language was HP-41 RPN
15:57	emaphis`	Hi, gfredericks
15:57	amalloy	or maybe that was an 83+ feature
15:57	gfredericks	amalloy: yeah I definitely used the heck out the lists
15:58	gfredericks	I had an 83+
15:58	gfredericks	I kept having to manage archival to fit all the programs/lists in memory
15:58	gfredericks	emaphis`: hi
15:59	technomancy	gfredericks: argh @ marmalade
15:59	technomancy	node.js breakage
15:59	gfredericks	marmalade runs on node?
16:00	technomancy	it is one of the great tragedies of our day =(
16:02	gfredericks	marmalode
16:03	emaphis`	spreadable javascript.
16:03	gfredericks	I have this kids book called "Hop Toad" that seems to be mostly based on the phonetics of the word "toad" and I think maybe from now on I will probably think of it as "Hop Node"
16:04	gfredericks	the primary conflict in the book is that the node.js almost gets run over by a truck while crossing the road
16:05	gfredericks	does node.js have a mascot yet? this one might work: http://www.amazon.com/Hoptoad-Jane-Yolen/dp/0152163522
16:06	emaphis`	Frogger?
16:07	marcopolo2	gfredericks: I always imagined this to be the mascot for node http://nodedublin-2012-strapping-turtles-to-rockets.jit.su/img/node_turtle.png
16:07	TimMc	That looks pretty unbalanced.
16:08	TimMc	I'm no rocket scientist, but I did play one at summer camp.
16:08	gfredericks	the book does have a turtle in it as well
16:08	marcopolo2	I'm no rocket scientist, but I'm pretty good at Kerbal Space Program
16:09	TimMc	gfredericks: I'm sold.
16:09	gfredericks	also contains the line "Toadal disaster"
16:09	marcopolo2	gfredericks: hahaha
16:10	TimMc	My partner jokes that I'm not interested in movies unless they have animals in them. I think this might be true.
16:10	gfredericks	nodal disaster?
16:11	marcopolo2	anyone here in North Florida?
16:12	emaphis`	North Ohio.
16:13	marcopolo2	You can take I-75 and get here in an hour
16:13	marcopolo2	+ some days...
16:13	gfredericks	North chicago?
16:13	gfredericks	everybody list what you're north of!
16:13	emaphis`	not from Ohio.
16:14	marcopolo2	emaphis`: I must be thinking of cincinnati
16:15	emaphis`	marcopolo2: I'd guess closer to two hours. :-)
16:15	emaphis`	maybe three.
16:17	TimMc	gfredericks: -east.
16:17	TimMc	-east US, specifically
16:20	gfredericks	clojure not having a rand is rather annoying
16:21	gfredericks	is there any reason it shouldn't?
16:21	gfredericks	has that been proposed before?
16:22	marcopolo2	gfredericks: what would rand do?
16:22	marcopolo2	set the seed for the rng?
16:22	gfredericks	it would _be_ the java.util.Random that all the built in rand functions use
16:31	bitemyapp	gfredericks: northern california
16:31	bitemyapp	gfredericks: north of Hell A
16:32	seangrove	North of my monitors.
16:34	justin_smith	north of a bread factory, south of a 20 foot tall wooden teepee with an imac in it
16:35	bitemyapp	north and south are kinda relative if you allow looping around the spheroid.
16:35	bitemyapp	just like west and east
16:35	gfredericks	what?
16:35	clojurebot	what is wrong with you
16:36	bitemyapp	is california really the "west"? We call Japan/China/etc the Far East, and California the west coast
16:36	bitemyapp	but California is east of Japan
16:36	marcopolo2	clojurebot: nice
16:36	clojurebot	Pardon?
16:36	gfredericks	north/south have poles though
16:36	bitemyapp	gfredericks: and west/east have the date line.
16:36	bitemyapp	so a point vs. a line
16:37	bitemyapp	how is crossing and looping past the point any more meaningful than crossing a line?
16:37	gfredericks	well the line is physically arbitrary
16:37	bitemyapp	violating the commonly held understanding of west/east crosses a higher dimensional barrier than north/south would.
16:37	bitemyapp	the poles are physically arbitrary too
16:37	gfredericks	the planet rotates
16:38	bitemyapp	why base north/south on that? why not the magnetic poles instead?
16:38	bitemyapp	it would make instrumentation more accurate.
16:38	indigo	(inc bitemyapp)
16:38	indigo	:3
16:39	seangrove	It would be lovely if IMAP let me retrieve a single message efficiently
16:39	bitemyapp	indigo: I'm glad to see my nihilism appeals to you.
16:39	bitemyapp	seangrove: how do you identify a single message?
16:40	seangrove	bitemyapp: With gmail's proprietary extension X-GM-MSGID
16:40	gfredericks	bitemyapp: less variance?
16:40	indigo	bitemyapp: http://cravencottagenewsround.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/nihilists.jpg
16:40	gfredericks	in any case arbitrarily choosing between two reasonable alternatives is a different scale from arbitrarily choosing from a continuous range of options
16:40	bitemyapp	gfredericks: variance from what? you can't find true north with a compass.
16:40	emaphis`	the magnetic poles shift over time.
16:41	bitemyapp	seangrove: but absent that, how?
16:41	bitemyapp	emaphis`: so?
16:41	seangrove	bitemyapp: Fix IMAP?
16:41	emaphis`	not a good standard for north/south
16:41	bitemyapp	emaphis`: an arbitrary projection is no less for arbitrary when it is based on fixed as opposed to moving points.
16:41	gfredericks	bitemyapp: do you use a compass to find things?
16:41	seangrove	And by fix, I mean lay on a some standardized extensions
16:41	bitemyapp	emaphis`: good is based on a set of priorities.
16:42	bitemyapp	seangrove: I'm not totally convinced IMAP shouldn't be replaced with a federated database.
16:42	bitemyapp	seangrove: since that's basically all it is.
16:42	emaphis`	On priority is having a north that doesn't move.
16:42	seangrove	I don't think IMAP is totally broken, but it would be nice if it had continued to evolve
16:42	bitemyapp	emaphis`: that can work if you're okay with not using compasses to find north.
16:43	gfredericks	bitemyapp: can you find the date line with a compass?
16:43	bitemyapp	seangrove: I think it's built on the wrong assumptions and will not be fixed.
16:43	bitemyapp	gfredericks: no, but unless you memorize location-dependent offsets, you can't find true north with a compass either.
16:43	seangrove	bitemyapp: Please elaborate, as you continue two simultaneous conversations :)
16:43	gfredericks	bitemyapp: I never said you could
16:43	bitemyapp	seangrove: like I said IMAP is basically just a federated database
16:44	bitemyapp	seangrove: with "targeted" replication.
16:44	gfredericks	bitemyapp: my point was that not being able to find something with a compass doesn't make it useless; and having a fixed standard seems more useful than compass-findfulness
16:44	bitemyapp	gfredericks: only because you live in a world with GPS.
16:45	gfredericks	you don't?
16:45	bitemyapp	gfredericks: I'm preparing for the zombie apocalypse. satellites fall eventually.
16:46	gfredericks	okay, my apologies for the noise everybody
16:46	indigo	bitemyapp: Big fan of mechanical watches? ;)
16:46	bitemyapp	gfredericks: sorry!
16:46	bitemyapp	indigo: wind-up.
16:46	indigo	:D
16:59	stompyj	hey all, beginner question here. If I need to fork a library, but I don't want to publish it to clojars or something along those lines, in order to reference it in my dependencies... what's the best way to go about that?
16:59	stompyj	(or better yet, what should I be reading to help me figure it out)
17:00	bitemyapp	stompyj: install locally or publish to private maven repo.
17:00	bitemyapp	stompyj: `lein install` is a thing.
17:00	stompyj	thanks, I'll check that out
17:00	coventry	You can publish it to clojars under a personal namespace. http://clojars.org:8001/org.clojars.coventry/tools.reader
17:01	bitemyapp	coventry: that still dirties up the search results, doesn't it?
17:01	technomancy	org.clojars.* should be ranked below everything else in search results
17:01	Jarda	hey
17:02	bitemyapp	technomancy: cool, good to know.
17:02	technomancy	but if it's literally for one person, `lein install` is best
17:02	Jarda	(my-function "foo" "bar") and (my-function "foo" [1 2 3])
17:02	Jarda	how should I differ with these two?
17:02	stompyj	technomancy: bitemyapp: perfect. thanks guys
17:03	Jarda	can I even overload functions by their type?
17:03	technomancy	pattern matching
17:04	bitemyapp	Jarda: case type
17:04	Jarda	ok thanks
17:05	coventry	Jarda: clojure.walk and clojure.walk2 have good examples.
17:06	bitemyapp	certainly better examples than my code.
17:27	devn	Anyone here deploy a caribou app to heroku yet?
17:28	devn	justin_smith: ^
17:28	technomancy	devn: if it uses ring it should be the same as anything else
17:28	justin_smith	I know patchwork has, at least as a proof of concept
17:28	justin_smith	patchwork: any wise words on caribou/heroku?
17:29	justin_smith	we have seen hiccups with our default max mem and the default heroku app size
17:29	justin_smith	so you may need to bump down the mem asked for
17:30	patchwork	devn: We have had someone successfully deploy to heroku, yes
17:30	patchwork	Are you having an issue?
17:31	devn	well, im helping a coworker
17:31	devn	he's not using a Procfile AFAICT
17:31	devn	Here was his error: 2013-12-11T22:09:26.480017+00:00 heroku[web.1]: Error R10 (Boot timeout) -> Web process failed to bind to $PORT within 60 seconds of launch
17:31	patchwork	There were two small changes necessary which I'm integrating back into the caribou template
17:32	technomancy	devn: try an uberjar
17:32	devn	He also dropped some fns into the production.clj
17:32	devn	which strikes me as odd since there's no ns associated with it
17:32	technomancy	what is production.clj?
17:32	patchwork	devn: Ah, yeah production.clj is just for config, he should be modifying core.clj
17:32	justin_smith	devn: he can try production.clj locally: env _JAVA_OPTIONS=-Denvironment=production lein ring server
17:33	justin_smith	technomancy: caribou environment specific config file
17:33	technomancy	don't do lein ring server
17:33	patchwork	technomancy: Why is that?
17:33	technomancy	patchwork: build an uberjar, or if you can't do that, use trampoline
17:33	justin_smith	technomancy: I am telling him to do lein ring server locally
17:33	justin_smith	with prod config
17:33	technomancy	oh gotcha
17:33	justin_smith	not lein ring server on prod
17:33	patchwork	(though I have been migrating over to httpkit lately)
17:33	devn	justin_smith: so don't drop the jvm opts?
17:34	technomancy	I still don't get the point of lein ring, but if that's what you like it's fine for local stuff
17:34	justin_smith	well try that too :) I think 512 is the limit for the default heroku
17:34	technomancy	512 is the total limit; the heap needs to be smaller
17:34	dav	hi again
17:34	dav	ns some.Example (:gen-class)) (defn -tryThis [this] "yo") (ns user) (.tryThis (some.Example.))
17:34	technomancy	and 2x dynos get you 1024
17:34	dav	produces a classNotFound exception..
17:34	patchwork	devn: Actually technomancy is right, heroku uses the -main function, so > lein run would be a better simulation of the heroku environment
17:34	dav	any thouhgts?
17:35	justin_smith	technomancy: if you have a reason not to do it locally I am all ears, but it has been our standard MO for running locally
17:35	technomancy	patchwork: heroku uses whatever you tell it to, but all the docs suggest -main =)
17:35	patchwork	justin_smith: I have been using > lein run lately
17:35	dav	does gen-class not work from the repl?
17:35	patchwork	which runs httpkit in the latest template
17:35	TimMc	dav: You probably need to :import the class in the second namespace.
17:35	justin_smith	well then I will too
17:36	technomancy	justin_smith: -main is just the standard entry point for clojure applications across the board. I don't see the point of introducing a new way to start apps just because they're web apps.
17:36	technomancy	normalization, and all that
17:36	bitemyapp	if one more person typedefs a function pointer in C and says, "look ma, FP!" I am going to just die
17:36	patchwork	technomancy: That makes sense, we used lein ring server before to avoid directly referencing jetty anywhere
17:36	technomancy	dav: gen-class requires AOT. you can do it from the repl with clojure.core/compile, but it's kind of cumbersome.
17:37	devn	justin_smith: patchwork: I'm trying to connect to postgres on heroku. :database needs more than just the uri, it needs it split up
17:37	devn	so the functions he wrote were for splitting up the heroku env's postgres URL and putting it into the map
17:38	devn	so now he has a function call in that production.clj
17:38	dav	technomancy: does that mean I can't put the gen-class in the same clj file that's going to be using it?
17:38	technomancy	dav: no that should be fine as long as you precompile it
17:39	patchwork	devn: Ah, interesting. Yeah that should probably go in boot.clj (that is where the config is loaded and the app is initialized).
17:39	patchwork	devn: Yeah I have not used heroku with postgres so I haven't run into this issue
17:39	patchwork	We can provide a function to generate the caribou config from the string heroku provides
17:40	technomancy	devn: why doesn't the string config work?
17:40	devn	technomancy: he was just matching the way caribou was expecting it
17:40	technomancy	dav: I'm not sure if AOT works with namespaces that don't have files behind them.
17:40	patchwork	technomancy: Our db config is in a map, and it constructs the string out of that. We should probably support both since the string approach would be more direct
17:41	devn	:database {:host "..." :protocol "..."}
17:41	devn	patchwork: yeah, that would make it way easier
17:41	technomancy	argh
17:41	technomancy	yeah I patched c.j.jdbc specifically to fix that
17:42	devn	patchwork: so in boot.clj you're saying, what? to assoc on :database with the result of splitting the URI up?
17:43	dav	technomancy: ok I'll try around a bit
17:43	dav	technomancy: thx
17:43	patchwork	devn: Added to the list!
17:43	technomancy	np
17:43	justin_smith	devn: that can be done in boot.clj
17:43	patchwork	devn: Yep, that should do the trick
17:43	justin_smith	that is where the config is generated from the config
17:43	justin_smith	*from the env.clj
17:45	justin_smith	I ran into similar issues when I added c3p0 connection pooling support (which totally works in a branch btw).
17:45	justin_smith	regarding caribou.model's conservative expectations of db config layout
17:45	devn	patchwork: justin_smith: so this confuses me a bit then. does this mean I need to check my env in boot.clj then?
17:46	devn	what happens to the production.clj config?
17:46	justin_smith	devn: that is the source data file
17:46	justin_smith	boot.clj merges that with some defaults
17:46	justin_smith	based on env
17:46	justin_smith	then makes it the operating config
17:46	justin_smith	so anything other than static edn data should happen in that file
17:46	patchwork	devn: In the config/config-from-environment call it merges in the config from whichever environment you are running in (production, staging, development etc)
17:47	patchwork	So boot.clj has the global config settings, which is supplemented by config from specific environments
17:48	patchwork	technomancy: You patched c.j.jdbc to enable database strings rather than maps?
17:48	technomancy	patchwork: right
17:48	patchwork	I will have to check out the latest version
17:48	technomancy	this was a long time ago
17:48	technomancy	maybe before 0.2.0 or 0.2.1
17:48	justin_smith	technomancy: awesome
17:49	justin_smith	patchwork: but we should be more flexible anyway, for pooled data, or nosql, datomic when we add support for those
17:49	devn	patchwork: so this is the rub then
17:49	patchwork	justin_smith: Agreed, it is really just a relic of the format of c.j.jdbc when I started this project two years ago
17:49	devn	patchwork: if that's true, then modifications i make to local-config will be overwritten if production.clj specifies :database
17:50	devn	so I guess I need to drop :database from that config file
17:50	justin_smith	devn: you can check config/environment in boot.clj
17:50	patchwork	devn: Check out the let form, config/config-from-environment happens last
17:50	dav	technomancy: do I have to do lein build or something for AOT prior to jumping into the REPL?
17:50	justin_smith	and act conditionally on whether it is "production"
17:50	patchwork	devn: So you can just add an extra binding under that that modifies it further
17:51	technomancy	dav: put :aot [my.genclass.ns] in project.clj
17:51	devn	patchwork: yeah, did that, now it's blowing up for a different reason, probably not related to caribou. more likely his expectation that we have a heroku env var set.
17:51	patchwork	devn: post the stacktrace on a paste somewhere
17:51	dav	technomancy: ah cool.
17:52	patchwork	devn: like refheap or something
17:52	bitemyapp	,(set (mapcat (comp merge set keys) [{:a 1} {:b 0} {:c 3 :d 1}]))
17:52	clojurebot	#{:a :c :b :d}
17:52	bitemyapp	anybody got a way to clean that up?
17:52	bitemyapp	my solution with "into" was dirtier.
17:54	bitemyapp	,(mapcat (comp merge keys) [{:a 1} {:b 0} {:c 3 :d 1}])
17:54	clojurebot	(:a :b :c :d)
17:54	bitemyapp	improvements from a coworker
17:55	danneu	would've expected ring.util.response/redirect to handle URI instead of just a string
17:55	patchwork	,(set (mapcat keys [{:a 1} {:b 0} {:c 3 :d 1}]))
17:55	clojurebot	#{:a :c :b :d}
17:55	ztellman	bitemyapp: what does merge do here? the result is the same with out
17:55	`cbp	[{:a 1} {:b 0} {:c 3 :d 1}]
17:55	`cbp	err
17:55	`cbp	well patchwork had what i wanted to paste
17:55	patchwork	bitemyapp: Do you want a set or a list back?
17:56	bitemyapp	ztellman: to uniqify. Should that be done at the end?
17:56	bitemyapp	patchwork: doesn't even really matter, it's just for a unit test, wanted to query all unique keys across a coll of maps.
17:56	ztellman	I didn't even know you could call merge on something which isn't a map
17:56	ztellman	I'm pretty sure you're not meant to
17:57	TimMc	&(merge 5)
17:57	ztellman	patchwork's answer is the right one, you could get away with 'distinct' if you don't care about the set-ness
17:57	TimMc	nullbot
17:57	TimMc	,(merge 5)
17:57	clojurebot	5
17:57	`cbp	oh goodness
17:57	ztellman	TimMc: that's probably identity no matter what
17:57	TimMc	nod
17:58	ztellman	ah, so that's why it's working
17:58	ztellman	though apparently this is possible:
17:58	ztellman	,(merge #{1} #{2})
17:58	clojurebot	#{1 #{2}}
17:58	`cbp	=(
17:58	dav	technomancy: so I did this: http://paste.debian.net/70441/
17:58	TimMc	lolwut
17:58	TimMc	,(merge #{1} #{2} #{3} #{4})
17:58	clojurebot	#{1 #{2} #{3} #{4}}
17:58	justin_smith	,(last (take 500 (iterate merge merge)))
17:58	clojurebot	#<core$merge clojure.core$merge@d46b95>
17:59	ztellman	merge just calls conj, apparently
17:59	dav	Compiling test-xlloop.methods
17:59	dav	technomancy: lein repl prints: Compiling test-xlloop.methods
17:59	ztellman	,(apply merge [] (range 5))
17:59	clojurebot	[0 1 2 3 4]
17:59	dav	technomancy: but once in the repl I can't get my hands on the class test-xlloop.methods
17:59	ztellman	I'm never using into again
18:02	TimMc	I don't suppose merge uses transients, though...
18:03	bitemyapp	TimMc: it's mostly reduce and conj with some boolean checks AFAICT
18:05	bitemyapp	good to see being untyped leads to !FUN!
18:05	devn	patchwork: https://www.refheap.com/b1edceb8c7610770d5f73762e
18:05	bitemyapp	ztellman: don't like transients? :P
18:06	devn	patchwork: something tells me that the default method of running migrations by specifying resources/config/production.clj is not going to work given there is no :database key/val in there.
18:06	ztellman	bitemyapp: it seems like merge should use transients and assoc!, but apparently it doesn't
18:08	devn	patchwork: it also seems funky that it's booting an nrepl server in production
18:08	justin_smith	is that really the default?
18:10	devn	doo itttt :)
18:10	patchwork	devn: Ah, that is editable in the config
18:10	patchwork	Just take out the :nrepl line
18:10	patchwork	I'll fix the production config in the template
18:11	justin_smith	patchwork: is boot.clj run for the config when running migrate? or will that be a future thing
18:11	devn	what about running migrations on heroku?
18:11	patchwork	Ah! I already have, it has just not been released : )
18:11	justin_smith	you can run a migration inside the app - you could make a version that just boots and runs the migration (though that is a total hack)
18:11	devn	:)
18:12	patchwork	devn: If your config points to your database, you can run the migration locally
18:12	devn	patchwork: right, but as we discussed earlier it can't
18:12	devn	because that env var lives on heroku
18:12	patchwork	devn: Ah, so you have no access to the db info at all?
18:12	patchwork	Strange
18:13	technomancy	any reason not to migrate as part of app boot?
18:13	technomancy	should be quick to check for needed migrations
18:14	patchwork	technomancy: We have talked about it. More just that we don't want to surprise people by automatically running migrations if they didn't intend it
18:14	devn	patchwork: nono, let me explain -- (System/getenv "HEROKU_POSTGRESQL_PURPLE_URL") returns a string: "postgres://blah:blah@foobarbaz.com" -- there are some user-defined fns in boot.clj which split that up into a map and assoc it onto the local-config
18:14	patchwork	But maybe it does make sense
18:14	bitemyapp	ztellman: strange that it doesn't, I would've guessed that it did.
18:14	technomancy	patchwork: oh I don't think the framework should, but as an app author it's a decision you could amke
18:15	patchwork	devn: Understood, but couldn't you log out that string once you receive it?
18:15	bitemyapp	technomancy: we migrate as part of app deploy, not boot.
18:15	patchwork	Or is there a reason the db information is kept from you?
18:15	bitemyapp	technomancy: I don't think boot is a good idea, but deploy seems fine.
18:15	devn	patchwork: so i get the string and then you're saying to do what with it?
18:15	ztellman	bitemyapp: I would have put money on it, before I actually checked
18:15	technomancy	bitemyapp: we have a pretty big pile of reasons not to expose runtime config during build
18:16	patchwork	devn: (println (System/getenv "HEROKU_POSTGRESQL_PURPLE_URL"))
18:16	patchwork	and check the logs
18:16	patchwork	Otherwise yeah, you can do as technomancy suggested and trigger pending migrations on boot
18:16	devn	i dont see what that buys me for running migrations if the only way to currently run them is by specifying resources/config/production.clj
18:17	devn	short of hand-editing that file
18:17	patchwork	But I would feel safer about running them directly. Sorry I've never had a db I couldn't connect to directly, it makes the neckbeard in me uncomfortable
18:17	bitemyapp	ztellman: me too
18:18	patchwork	devn: You could make a new config that just has the remote db info
18:18	bitemyapp	technomancy: okay, then in a heroku context, that's not a good idea.
18:18	bitemyapp	technomancy: I'd do it as a separate, ran locally, part of the deployment then.
18:18	bitemyapp	not on heroku
18:18	technomancy	bitemyapp: it would if we had a step between build and release, but we currently don't
18:18	technomancy	we should though
18:18	patchwork	devn: Then do > lein caribou migrate resources/config/local.clj
18:18	patchwork	where local.clj is pointing to the remote heroku db
18:18	devn	patchwork: patchwork oh you're saying do this from my /local machine/!
18:19	patchwork	devn: Yeah!
18:19	devn	whooosh
18:19	patchwork	But maybe you can't even connect to the heroku db locally
18:19	devn	yeah of course that'll work
18:19	patchwork	which is a possibility
18:19	devn	nono i should be able to
18:19	patchwork	Okay
18:19	devn	running migrations on deploy would be preferable in my case i think
18:19	devn	but this will at least get it running out in space
18:19	patchwork	devn: Yeah I see that now
18:19	patchwork	haven't come across that before!
18:20	patchwork	This is why caribou is still alpha ; )
18:21	patchwork	devn: It will improve because you are using it ways we have not anticipated, so thanks!
18:22	dav	I must be missing something very simple :(
18:24	dav	(1) I've put a trivial (ns :gen-class) in a myclass.clj (2) I've added :aot [test-proj.myclass] in project.clj (3) lein repl compiles myclass (4) java.lang.ClassNotFoundException anytime I try to do anything with myclass.. please help?
18:27	bitemyapp	technomancy: realistically it can (and should most cases) just happen in the customer's deploy script before they git push heroku master
18:28	amalloy	dav: not enough information to diagnose a problem. try gisting the relevant code
18:28	bitemyapp	technomancy: but I guess the whole point of your company is that they not need to have a deploy script other than gphm huh?
18:28	technomancy	bitemyapp: well, with tests it becomes more complicated. you want a pipeline.
18:28	technomancy	I think some folks hook it up to circleci &c
18:29	devn	patchwork: no dice still, fails to connect, but it is connectable.
18:29	technomancy	but we don't do enough to make that easy ATM
18:29	dav	amalloy: code is at http://paste.debian.net/70441/
18:29	devn	patchwork: you should try out what im doing just to get a feel for the herku deployment situation. im just taking the stock example app and trying to get a deploy to heroku with postgres as the db.
18:30	patchwork	devn: Right, I have used postgres with caribou, and heroku with caribou, but not postgres AND heroku with caribou
18:31	patchwork	I have added it to the list, should be straightened out in the next release
18:32	devn	patchwork: patchwork Exception in thread "main" org.postgresql.util.PSQLException: FATAL: no pg_hba.conf entry for host "xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx" user "xxx" password "xxx"
18:32	devn	gah sorry for the double nick again, force of habit
18:32	patchwork	devn: That is locally?
18:32	devn	yeah, using the postgres connection details on the heroku postgresql addon page
18:33	patchwork	So can you log into the remote heroku psql db from your local machine directly?
18:34	technomancy	dav: needs to include the caller
18:34	dav	technomancy: what do you mean ?
18:34	devn	patchwork: should be able to. i've done it before.
18:34	technomancy	dav: the part that's actually failing
18:35	technomancy	is not in the paste
18:35	dav	technomancy: I'm just typing (test-xlloop.methods.) in lein repl
18:35	patchwork	devn: That looks like a host issue, which would mean your host is not authorized to access the db
18:35	patchwork	Try it and let me know
18:35	patchwork	if you can do it directly, you should be able to do it through jdbc
18:36	devn	yeah, im going to take a break -- but ill test it with straight jdbc to be sure
18:36	patchwork	devn: Cool, yeah I'll improve the heroku story here
18:37	technomancy	dav: oh gotcha. does the .class file exist in target/classes?
18:38	patchwork	devn: Beyond connecting through jdbc, let me know if you can connect with psql!
18:39	devn	patchwork: https://devcenter.heroku.com/articles/heroku-postgresql#external-connections-ingress
18:39	devn	im guessing it has to do with sslmode=require
18:39	patchwork	devn: Hmm… so not with a regular psql command though
18:39	patchwork	That is being mediated by heroku
18:40	dav	technomancy: yes, target/classes/test_xlloop/methods.class
18:40	devn	patchwork: check out this: https://devcenter.heroku.com/articles/heroku-postgresql#remote-connections
18:41	technomancy	dav: has the repl been restarted since compiling?
18:41	patchwork	devn: Ah, well there you go
18:41	justin_smith	patchwork: devn: I think the easiest thing here is to add a call to caribou.migrate/migrate during the boot sequence, and deploy like that. It will migrate and then boot up. You can comment it out after the first deploy, but even re-running it won't hurt (except by making your boot-time take longer)
18:41	devn	patchwork: fixed it
18:41	clojurebot	I don't understand.
18:42	devn	patchwork: i needed to specify :ssl true, :sslfactory "org.postgresql.ss.NonValidatingFactory"
18:42	patchwork	devn: Ah, radical!
18:42	devn	i need to give you guys some doc PRs
18:42	patchwork	devn: That would be most welcome
18:43	technomancy	not much longer, hopefully
18:43	devn	technomancy: is that comment w/r/t the sslfactory thing?
18:44	dav	technomancy: yes, in fact, it's the repl that compiles on startup.
18:44	justin_smith	devn: thanks for being patient with these issues and keeping us informed
18:46	technomancy	dav: what you're describing works for me
18:47	justin_smith	devn: also we hang out on #caribou and it may be better to have the more in depth caribou specific convos there
18:50	technomancy	dav: maybe try a fresh project. `lein new aoty-thingy; edit project.clj; edit core.clj; lein repl; (aoty-thingy.core.)` and see what's different between the two
18:53	dav	technomancy: ok let me try that
18:56	dav	technomancy: those exact step do not work for me.
18:57	dav	technomancy: CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: aoty-thingy.core
18:57	dav	technomancy: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6558678/
18:57	technomancy	dav: are you using leiningen 1.x?
18:58	dav	technomancy: Leiningen 2.3.3 on Java 1.7.0_25 OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM
18:59	technomancy	dav: not sure what's going on; can't reproduce the problem
19:00	dav	technomancy: could you send me a tar/zip of your aoty ?
19:01	technomancy	sure http://p.hagelb.org/buggery.tar
19:01	dav	technomancy: thanks!
19:01	technomancy	no offense; "buggery" is just what I always call my one-off debugging projects =)
19:03	dav	technomancy: none taken ;-)
19:11	dav	technomancy: I think it struck me
19:11	dav	technomancy: can't have a - in a class name in Java can we?
19:11	technomancy	oh hum
19:11	technomancy	according to the spec you can't
19:12	dav	technomancy: clojure converted it to a _ :-(
19:12	dav	technomancy: mystery solved.
19:12	technomancy	I thought it actually worked ok on openjdk, but maybe not
19:12	dav	technomancy: thanks.
19:12	technomancy	oh, right. you can do it, but clojure won't let you.
19:12	technomancy	super annoying
19:12	technomancy	please to vote for http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1297
19:13	technomancy	which wouldn't solve this exact problem but is related
19:13	technomancy	dav: usually gen-classed namespaces are camelcased
19:13	technomancy	which is weird
19:15	Bronsa	technomancy: clojure will happily compile (deftype foo-bar []) though
19:17	arrdem	bitemyapp: dotas in a couple hours?
19:21	dav	technomancy: will do. thanks for all the help!
19:27	technomancy	np
19:28	pandeiro	is this :include-macros keyword for :require expressions new in cljs?
19:39	bitemyapp	arrdem: dinner with technomancy, then we can.
19:39	bitemyapp	arrdem: done with your finals?
20:17	meoblast001	Raynes: hi
20:18	Raynes	meoblast001: Hi.
20:18	meoblast001	cool
20:44	murtaza52	I have a collection of tuples which are ordered. When I convert them into a map, I loose the order. How can I keep the order ?
20:44	amalloy	don't convert them into a map
20:47	coventry	Is ordered-map a bad idea? https://github.com/flatland/ordered
20:47	gfredericks	any guesses when clojure/west will be announced?
20:49	amalloy	coventry: i mean, it's not awful. there are specialized scenarios where you might want an ordered-map (which is why i wrote it). but most of the time, you either want a map or you want ordered tuples, and trying to conflate the two just leads to confusion
20:52	coventry	amalloy: Makes sense. Thanks.
20:57	shep-home	Does anyone have suggestions for Clojure projects I can read from and learn more about testing in Clojure?
20:57	shep-home	I'm getting the distinct sense that most of the tests I want to write are duplication of the implementation
20:57	shep-home	Which doesn't sit well with me.
20:58	gfredericks	shep-home: what sort of code are you testing? business logic?
20:59	shep-home	gfredericks: I decided to do something nice and easy to (inc clojure-skill)
20:59	shep-home	so, I'm trying to implement Raft
21:00	shep-home	https://ramcloud.stanford.edu/wiki/download/attachments/11370504/raft.pdf
21:00	shep-home	Which is stretching me in lots of ways
21:01	shep-home	But I've been reasonably happy with how I'm forced to separate my code
21:01	shep-home	but I'll end up with tiny-ish functions
21:02	coventry	shep-home: Make tests for each of the paper diagrams.
21:03	shep-home	coventry: so, here's where my imperitive programming background kicks in...
21:03	shep-home	Mos tof the diagrams seem to focus on successions of state
21:04	shep-home	And it feels a little funny to have a test that is
21:04	coventry	Doesn't the corresponding logic in your implementation involve updating state somewhere? Test that that's happening as it should.
21:04	coventry	How are you tracking the successions of state in your implementation?
21:05	shep-home	(let [server (-> (create-server) state-trans1 state-trans2 ...)] (is ...some assertion on state...)
21:05	shep-home	coventry: well, I've punted a small bit there. I've started with an agent for it
21:06	coventry	The code you wrote there looks sane to me.
21:06	shep-home	But testing against the agent feels like a comparitively high-level test
21:09	shep-home	For example, once I get that high, my "sockets" (aka in-memory queues for now) come into play
21:10	shep-home	I also started to look into simple-check some. Some of those state-transition steps have parameters that I've arbitrarily chosen
21:11	shep-home	But I'm not sure that it makes sense for these tests...
21:12	shep-home	Most of the books and whatnot have talked about how the testing frameworks work... but I'd love to see real-life examples
21:13	gfredericks	simple-check is the knee of the bee
21:15	coventry	You might try arranging it so that (create-server) contains a reference to the agent, and all the state-trans* fns refer to the agent that way. Then you can have (create-server :test) refer to a mock of it, or something. Or you could just bash the reference in your tests so that it points to a mock.
21:16	coventry	For reading, try the tests in aleph. https://github.com/ztellman/aleph/tree/perf/test/aleph/test
21:18	shep-home	coventry: to clarify, are you using * to mean one-or-more or as in "foo and foo*" method pair?
21:18	coventry	yeah, I meant it as a glob.
21:20	shep-home	Would you expect that the functions take in server or server-agt?
21:22	coventry	That server-agt is an agent should be an implementation detail of server which the state-trans* fns don't touch.
21:27	shep-home	Ok, I agree with that. So there would be user-facing method that ultimately do the send or swap or dosync, right?
21:27	shep-home	methods*
21:28	coventry	From what you've described, that sounds like a sensible way to do things.
21:29	shep-home	And would you expect I have tests that drive via these user-facing methods? That seems only sensible, but those start to feel like full-stack-ish / integration tests.
21:30	coventry	The goal is to make anything like that an extremely simple wrapper around a pure function.
21:32	shep-home	That all makes sense. I'm also stuck with the fact that there are side effects scattered throughout
21:33	shep-home	Like, when you get a message, you need to send a message
21:33	shep-home	So I've been trying to push all those to the outside of my pure state modification methods
22:02	jweiss	what is the mechanism clojure uses to avoid duplicating the list in memory when you run something like (drop 5 (range 10000)) ? I thought it was STM but that seems to only deal with concurrency.
22:04	eric_normand	dnolen: when did #js come to be?
22:10	Apage43	jweiss: garbage collection? =P
22:10	coventry	jweiss: laziness.
22:10	coventry	$source range
22:10	jweiss	no, it's not either of those. there's a diagram on the clojure site that shows a tree in memory
22:10	jweiss	sorry maybe range was a bad example
22:10	maravillas	structual sharing
22:11	jweiss	yeah, that
22:11	beppu	jweiss: http://paulsanwald.com/blog/234.html (intro to lazy-seq)
22:11	coventry	range is definitely returning a lazy seq, and drop is dropping the head.
22:12	coventry	But yeah, for non-lazy structures, it's structural sharing. I think hyperion had a good post on this recently
22:13	jweiss	coventry, but i'm pretty sure (take 5 (doall (range 10000)) wouldn't duplicate in memory either.
22:13	coventry	Sure. http://hypirion.com/musings/understanding-persistent-vector-pt-1
22:19	jweiss	coventry: ah that's helpful, thanks. i would think this would be something common to many programming languages but i don't think i've used any other that has it. i'd guess haskell probably does
22:19	`cbp	every lisp has structural sharing for lists :P
22:20	`cbp	not that it's very hard to implement
22:20	coventry	It's a pretty alien concept. Some folks on #python were arguing volumes that it wouldn't make sense to have such structures in python.
22:20	coventry	(a couple of weeks ago.)
22:21	jweiss	i have been learning python lately and the #python channel is, shall we say, less pleasant than this one.
22:22	jweiss	ok i think perhaps the term i am looking for is 'persistent data structure'
22:22	newblue	Rich Hickey explains structural sharing about 30 minutes into this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wASCH_gPnDw
22:22	jweiss	ultimately what i was wondering is, does this concept exist in any lower-level languages
22:23	coventry	Well, they've been ported to javascript. :-)
22:25	jweiss	i suppose to make my question even more abstract, is how close to the machine can you get without being forced into looking at it in the von neumann perspective
22:38	arrdem	bitemyapp: nice! I'm jelly. done with finals on saturday night but I'm done for the night so whatever
22:46	bitemyapp	weeeeee
22:46	bitemyapp	arrdem: that was technomancy. that was his way of saying hi.
22:46	arrdem	bitemyapp: haha
22:46	bitemyapp	arrdem: he doesn't know how to use irssi. (erc user. and dvorak.)
22:47	arrdem	bitemyapp: ah yes... the emacs curse...
23:36	bitemyapp	rickasaurus: "EXPERIENCE REQUIRED: [...] Object oriented programming experience in Haskell." http://t.co/A3MGRrykrK
23:37	coventry	You can write java in any programming language.
23:38	arrdem	#fivehorrorsofprogramming
23:38	arrdem	or whatever that was
23:41	hyPiRion	#FiveWordTechHorrors
23:41	arrdem	yeah that
23:43	{[^-^]}	so, is it better to, after you've finished designing, optimize your clojure in different clojure or java?
23:44	{[^-^]}	I guess what I'm asking is can you optimize clojure to be as fast as java without becoming unreadable
23:44	arrdem	sometimes you just gotta write java if it's that much of an issue.
23:44	arrdem	but there are tricks you can play with profiling clojure code to speed things up
23:52	eric_normand	bitemyapp: data MonadManagerFactory = ...
23:56	dnolen	an MVC "framework" in ClojureScript, whopping 24 lines https://github.com/swannodette/om/blob/master/src/om/core.cljs