#clojure – 2013-12-01

2013-12-01

01:19	logic_prog	for swap!, is there something that does "swap and return old value" ?
01:19	logic_prog	so update-in returns the new value of the atom
01:20	logic_prog	however, instead of doing update-in, I'd like to update the value ... but also get the old value
01:49	nightfly	I'm not sure that that's possible since swap! isn't guaranteed to be called only once
01:49	nightfly	you could probably build what you want using refs instead though
01:56	amalloy	i mean, you can do it with an atom if you don't mind making it a bit of a hassle to use the atom for other stuff
01:58	amalloy	(defn historical-atom [x] (atom [x nil])) (defn swap-returning-old! [hatom f & args] (second (swap! hatom #(apply f (first %) args)))) (defn current-value [hatom] (first @hatom))
01:59	amalloy	or...well, i got the swap! wrong. but i think the idea is clear enough
02:27	mysamdog	How would I do var folded = new OriDomi(document.getElementsByClassName('responsee.1')[0]); in clojurescript?
02:34	seangrove	mysamdog: (OriDomi. (first (.getElementsByClassName js/document "responseee.1)))
02:34	seangrove	But of course you'd have to make sure all the deps were loaded properly, etc.
02:35	seangrove	You just asked for a simple mechanical transformation.
02:36	seangrove	mysamdog: (-> (.getElementsByClassName js/document "responseee.1) first (OriDomi.)) might be more clear, depending on your background
02:36	mysamdog	Thank you so much
04:31	amalloy	fwiw, seangrove, the way i think reads most nicely is (OriDomi. (first (-> js/document (.getElementsByClassName "responseee.1"))))
04:32	amalloy	but i dunno. that puts the classname last, whereas i'd like it to be more prominent
05:46	xificurC	Hi, reading about 'Mocking and Stubbing' in 'Clojure in Action' I notice that the author is dynamically rebinding a function, i.e. he has a (defn log-call ...) and somewhere else does (binding [log-call something-else] ...). I understand that this is not possible since then unless you declare (defn ^:dynamic log-call ...)?
05:48	xificurC	so that means you cannot shadow a var unless it's declared as ^:dynamic, right?
05:53	arcatan	xificurC: yeah
05:53	arcatan	xificurC: but in earlier versions of Clojure all variables used to be dynamic
05:54	arcatan	(earlier versions = 1.2 and earlier)
05:54	xificurC	arcatan: thanks
05:54	xificurC	so that part of the book is practically deprecated
05:56	arcatan	there's still with-redefs, which can be used all variables and which mutates the binding globally (binding does it thread-locally)
05:56	arcatan	so it's kinda dangerous if you're multithreading, but it can be useful when writing tests
05:57	arcatan	i recently asked on stackoverflow about it: http://stackoverflow.com/q/20139463/297366
06:01	arcatan	i wonder if mocking by rebinding variables is popular, or good style.
06:02	xificurC	arcatan: I wonder too. thanks for the tip
06:05	xificurC	arcatan: cool I only had to change binding to with-redefs in the functions and the tests work as expected. Thanks!
06:37	d11wtq	I notice map returns a lazy-seq. However, when I map over a vector, it doesn't seem to be lazy like it is using a list. What am I doing wrong here?
06:37	d11wtq	(first (map (fn [x] (println (str "Called with " x)) x) [1 2 3 4 5]))
06:37	d11wtq	See the side-effects even when just asking for first. If you switch that vector to a list, the side-effects go away for the rest of the list.
06:48	eigenlicht	clojure's macro system is not hygienic, is that correct? but it avoids the problem of unhygienic macros by not allowing name bindings that hide others
06:49	hiredman	eigenlicht: no, if it did that, that is pretty much the definition of macro hygene
06:50	hiredman	eigenlicht: clojure has some facilities for automatically generate symbol names for use in macro created bindings that have names that are unlikely to shadow anything
06:51	eigenlicht	hiredman: so even though I use a name that is likely to shadow some other, it internally gets replaced by something else?
06:51	eigenlicht	instead of me doing it manually like in CL with gensymbol?
06:51	hiredman	eigenlicht: no, it would get replaced unless you as for it
06:51	eigenlicht	pardon?
06:53	hiredman	eigenlicht: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L794-L804 is what it looks like
06:53	hiredman	when using syntax quote (which is sort of like the quasi quote other lisps have) a symbol name that ends with # is auto gensymed
06:54	hiredman	all symbols that do not end with # are assumed to be globals and get namespace qualified
06:54	eigenlicht	hiredman: got it, thanks
06:54	hiredman	so if you want to have a local name inside syntax quote that is not a gensym you have to work at it
06:55	hiredman	`a
06:55	hiredman	,`a
06:55	clojurebot	sandbox/a
06:55	hiredman	,`a#
06:55	clojurebot	a__57__auto__
06:55	hiredman	,`(let [a 1] a)
06:55	clojurebot	(clojure.core/let [sandbox/a 1] sandbox/a)
06:55	hiredman	and clojure won't let you bind a namespace qualified name as a local
06:55	eigenlicht	,`(let [a# 1] a)
06:55	clojurebot	(clojure.core/let [a__114__auto__ 1] sandbox/a)
06:56	hiredman	,`(let [a# 1] a#)
06:56	clojurebot	(clojure.core/let [a__143__auto__ 1] a__143__auto__)
06:56	eigenlicht	seems reasonable
06:56	hiredman	it has worked ok so far :)
07:04	d11wtq	Noob question, but what should I be looking at if I know (map ..) is not being lazy when it should be? I've tried wrapping the seq with (lazy-seq s) but it's still executing the function for every element in the seq.
07:08	hiredman	d11wtq: http://blog.fogus.me/2010/01/22/de-chunkifying-sequences-in-clojure/
07:08	d11wtq	Ah never mind, it wasn't anything to do with laziness. I was going down the wrong rabbit hole.
07:08	d11wtq	hiredman: thanks. I'll have a look at that in a tick. I definitely need to better understand seqs.
07:09	WWWest1	Hi all
07:10	WWWest1	Has anyone managed to get source maps working on node?
07:13	danenania	hola clojurians, could use a little guidance on compojure/friend if anyone has a minute: http://stackoverflow.com/q/20311952/238751
07:31	Bronsa	hiredman: what I was trying to fix with the current behaviour of validate-loop locals is this: http://sprunge.us/RfMe
09:05	zilti	I have a problem with core.async in clojurescript. >! and <! both block forever, while put! and take! work as intended.
09:25	zilti	I have a problem with core.async in clojurescript. >! and <! both block forever, while put! and take! work as intended.
09:58	jph-	anyone know offhand if there's a pretty printing / output formatter for console apps?
09:58	jph-	ie formatting data into tables
09:58	jph-	ascii tables
10:05	zilti	jph-: Look into the clojure.pprint namespace.
10:07	jph-	zilti: cheers, wasnt sure if that would include table-level formatting or just json-type formatting
10:08	zilti	jph-: You can format things into tables as well, yes
10:08	jph-	zilti: lovely
11:19	danneu	Has anyone hapened to roll their own function that walks arbitrary structures/values and converts values in some way? Ideally I'd just borrow someone's since my attempt sorta sucks https://www.refheap.com/21390
11:22	danneu	nvm, the dispatch on map? coll? etc needs to be moved outside the `walk` as well
11:28	rovar	is there a way to explore the classes that are loaded in the classpath from the repl?
11:28	rovar	I'm having a hard time finding the correct name to use to load modules
11:30	rovar	i run lein repl, and and when I try to require or use, it says it can't find that class.
11:31	rovar	specifically: (use 'jiraph.graph) or (use 'org.flatland/jiraph.graph)
11:31	justin_smith	danneu: does clojure.walk2 not do what you want?
11:31	justin_smith	rovar what is the artifact you added to your dependencies?
11:32	rovar	[org.flatland/jiraph "0.12.3-alpha1"]
11:32	seangrove	Looking at picking up JoC, but I don't want any more physical books. Is the ebook reasonably well formatted and enjoyable to read?
11:32	rovar	lein cp indicates that it is referencing it
11:32	rovar	seangrove, so far so good. I just picked it up last night
11:32	rovar	the 2nd edition from manning
11:32	justin_smith	rovar: flatland.jiraph.graph https://github.com/flatland/jiraph/blob/develop/src/flatland/jiraph/graph.clj#L1
11:32	rovar	they give you a [mobi ebook pdf] file
11:33	justin_smith	also, avoid use, require with an alias helps a lot
11:33	justin_smith	rovar: basically what you want to require is the ns name declared in the file you are using
11:34	rovar	what would be the best approach for a repl?
11:34	justin_smith	usually I do: (require '[flatland.jiraph.graph :as g])
11:35	justin_smith	not too much hassle to type, makes me rembember where the functions came from if I put them in my code
11:37	rovar	that works
11:38	justin_smith	the problem with use, in my experience, is I come back to something later, and need to reorganize, and have no idea where any of these functions came from
11:38	justin_smith	it makes extending or splitting my code very annoying
11:39	rovar	erg
11:41	seangrove	rovar: Did you try it on the Kindle?
11:41	rovar	the good news is there has been significant development work since that documentation was written. The bad news is <<<
11:41	justin_smith	lol
11:41	justin_smith	documentation skew!
11:42	rovar	everything has been moved into new namespaces..
11:42	rovar	but the tests are current
11:43	rovar	seangrove, uploading the .mobi now
11:43	rovar	I have a crappy kindle, so most programming books are not good
11:44	hyPiRion	Ah dang, wish there were some way to couple documentation indirectly with "tests". Although I have a feeling that it's harder than it seems
11:44	justin_smith	using the doc strings in function bodies help - at least they are right there when you edit or move the function
11:44	hyPiRion	It's "hard" to trace down "outdated" documentation.
11:45	hyPiRion	yeah, I am more thinking of documentation living outside the source code
11:46	justin_smith	I think for that, you really need a preamble : this documentation is current as of "version"
11:46	justin_smith	someone was having some trouble the other day, some nrepl docs had been s/nrepl/cider/g edited, and were inaccurate because some of the stuff isn't actually working in cider
11:48	hyPiRion	hmm, yeah, that's doable
11:48	justin_smith	it is fairly simple, and you know as soon as you start reading whether it is guaranteed to apply to your version (and how many versions old it is)
11:49	rovar	seangrove, looking at it now on my 7" black and white kindle.. looks good. no tables are mangled, code examples look right.
11:49	justin_smith	speaking of, there are some old caribou docs that should really just be taken down and pointed at the new docs
12:00	jtoy	where is a log function in clojure? its not in math contrib anymore it seems
12:01	justin_smith	,(Math/log 0.1)
12:01	clojurebot	-2.3025850929940455
12:01	justin_smith	though you may want something with proper numeric tower support
12:02	justin_smith	dunno where you would find that
12:02	jtoy	that should work for now, thanks
12:02	jtoy	hard to tell from the docs
12:08	justin_smith	jtoy: fyi clojure.contrib.math is not clojure.math.numeric-tower
12:09	justin_smith	https://github.com/clojure/math.numeric-tower
12:18	jtoy	justin_smith: it says Formerly clojure.contrib.math ?
12:20	justin_smith	I meant now, typed not
12:20	justin_smith	oops!
12:32	rubber-duck	if I have a macro (defmacro foo [x]) how do I get (foo y) to return symbol y ?
12:33	rubber-duck	''x will return x, 'x will return y that gets evaluated to y in local ns
12:35	rubber-duck	nvm figured it out (defmacro foo [x] `(quote ~x))
12:35	bbloom	rubber-duck: you can write `'~x
12:36	rubber-duck	bbloom, nice
12:40	jtoy	can I add metadata to a defn and then from inside the method access that data?
12:41	hyPiRion	I guess
12:41	hyPiRion	(defn foo [] (meta #'foo)) ...
12:42	hyPiRion	jtoy: ^ works fine
12:49	exupero	can anyone tell me why when I run `lein trampoline cljsbuild repp-listen` it seems to hang?
12:49	exupero	*repl-listen
12:59	holo	hi
13:00	holo	just created a new library template with lein, test file is suffixed with _test instead of a directory named test. what is the rationale behind for this decision?
15:53	solidus_	how do i use clojure async? i did (require 'clojure.core.async) and added the deps in lein project.clj but i can't use any of the macros
15:54	dnolen	bellkev: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/clj/cljs/compiler.clj#L355, the entire CLJS AST is represented as maps, and multimethods over them
15:54	dnolen	bellkev: you'll see similar things if you look at the modern CLJ analyzer and emitter that Bronsa is working on
15:55	coventry	I did run into a problem with using a dispatch map: <http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1276>. I they're considered bad style, that's a drawback because it's a largely untested usage.
15:56	coventry	*If
15:57	coventry	Perhaps if I used a multimethod, I could reunify the code I had to split out because of that bug. https://github.com/coventry/troncle/blob/master/src/troncle/wrap/wrappers.clj
15:59	coventry	solidus_: Can you post some code and the error you're getting on refheap.com
16:00	solidus_	coventry : turn out i needed to eval (require '[clojure.core.async :as async :refer :all]) ...
16:01	bellkev	Just briefly looking at defmulti, it looks like it's primarily a way to do something like method overloading by type in Java?
16:01	coventry	bellkev: It's much more general than that.
16:01	justin_smith	bellkev: you can use an arbitrary function for dispatch
16:01	justin_smith	bellkev: so you can have a key declaring the "type" of map it is
16:01	justin_smith	for example
16:02	bellkev	Okay, I'll keep checking it out. In my case, I need between 1 and 4 different methods (named "default", "create", "update" and "delete"), each of which will basically take maps as input/output
16:03	si14	how can I debug random "ClassNotFound" exceptions about one of my records?
16:04	justin_smith	si14: is a record you have redefined at some point in the repl?
16:04	si14	the weird thing is that it's really random. It works in 80% cases, and in 20% exception is thrown
16:04	si14	justin_smith: nope
16:05	justin_smith	are you getting complaints that a class could not be loaded?
16:05	si14	justin_smith: here is the trace: https://gist.github.com/si14/187a43845e3d1eea4544
16:06	justin_smith	and is this a class you can normally access?
16:06	si14	yes
16:06	si14	moreover, it was accessed by previous request
16:08	si14	and it breaks core.async in somewhat funny way that I can't even locate, it just stops to deliver WS messages through the "bridge" I've made
16:08	justin_smith	threads + exceptions can lead to unexpected behavior combinations in my experience
16:09	coventry	justin_smith: Can you give an example?
16:09	tbaldridge	si14: are you using record literals?
16:09	si14	tbaldridge: нуы
16:09	si14	tbaldridge: yes
16:09	si14	(sorry)
16:09	si14	tbaldridge: I'm using cljson that use them
16:10	tbaldridge	si14: yeah, until recently, record literals are a bit buggy with core.async
16:11	si14	tbaldridge: I'm using the last tagged version ("0.1.242.0-44b1e3-alpha"). Does it mean that I should better switch to snapshot?
16:12	tbaldridge	si14: try using 0.1.256.0-1bf8cf-alpha
16:13	tbaldridge	or you can also move the record literals outside of go blocks (call them in other functions or something) that might help
16:14	tbaldridge	and this is only for record literals. Normal record creation like (->Foo 1 a) works just fine
16:15	guns	Was (def ^{:private true} foo …) legal back in Clojure 1.2?
16:16	si14	tbaldridge: tried the newer version and it didn't help. I don't use record literals directly, they are used by a library
16:17	si14	the thing that is the most painful is that it really happens in 20-30%
16:17	tbaldridge	si14: that should be fine then. The problem is only when you use reducers directly inside the body of a go
16:17	tbaldridge	si14: it's probably a race condition. A class gets called before it is loaded.
16:18	andyf	tbaldridge: This question might be nonsense, but is there some sense in which core.async is x% of a Clojure compiler, for some non-0 number x?
16:19	tbaldridge	yes, it is a CLJ->CLJ compiler :-)
16:20	coventry	I call my compiler #'identity.
16:20	guns	And to answer myself, yes ^{:key value} metadata is fine in 1.2, but not ^:key
16:20	andyf	tbaldridge: I ask not from deep knowledge of core.async, but just the vague impression that the kinds of bugs experienced in core.async seem to be in some fairly deep corners of the language.
16:24	si14	tbaldridge: how this can be given that the code that uses that class was already run?
16:27	tbaldridge	andyf: yeah, that's very much the case. Most of the bugs in the go macro have come from use cases that 0.01% of Clojure code uses.
16:27	tbaldridge	si14: I'm not sure, I haven't seen the code. That's just a guess
16:28	si14	tbaldridge: I mean that I can be wrong in my assumptions about how classes are resolved in JVM.
16:30	Profpatsch	I finally got the Clojurescript brepl working on top of nrepl in Emacs.
16:31	Profpatsch	Now I’m experimenting with coding a little on canvas.
16:31	Profpatsch	I’ve got a brepl running on 9000 and cider connected to that.
16:32	Profpatsch	Then I wanted to pull in dommy, edited the project.clj, edited the require and restarted cljsbuild auto.
16:34	Profpatsch	But somehow the repl didn’t quite follow. I can type stuff in the file, save it and reload the page, works just fine, but when I try to eval dommy functions from the repl I get evaluation TypeErrors.
16:34	Profpatsch	“Cannot call method ‘call’ of undefined.”
16:35	Profpatsch	Is this normal with repls?
16:41	justin_smith	sounds like you are trying to use a function that is declared as a var but not yet bound
16:41	Profpatsch	Woah there.
16:41	Profpatsch	I just imported a library. ;)
16:42	Profpatsch	The one thing I stumble over a lot in clj is the namespace system.
16:43	si14	finally fixed (or I hope so) the problem with AOT.
16:49	Profpatsch	justin_smith How could that be. When I refresh the browser, the repl should be completely fresh, shouldn’t it?
16:57	justin_smith	Profpatsch: it could be the error has to do with trying to call something that does not even exist
16:58	bellkev	justin_smith: Well, I think I found a more Clojurey way around my whole multi method question...
16:58	Profpatsch	justin_smith: https://www.refheap.com/21393
16:58	justin_smith	bellkev: cool, what is it?
16:59	bellkev	The whole reason I needed methods in the first place was to respond to create/update/delete calls from the AWS CloudFormation custom resource API
16:59	Profpatsch	justin_smith: That’s after reloading the browser.
16:59	bellkev	However, those actually come as a "event" object kind of like an HTTP request, with the "method" as one of the fields in the event
16:59	justin_smith	ahh
16:59	bellkev	So I can make it so that you just have to implement a handler, like a ring handler, that gets the whole request as input
17:00	justin_smith	so you can use the format that comes in
17:00	bellkev	Does that make sense?
17:00	justin_smith	indeed
17:00	bellkev	Yeah, and then handler-developers can do whatever they want with the map that comes in
17:00	coventry	Profpatsch: It looks like sel1 is a macro, meaning it's clojure code, but your repl is trying to execute it as cljs.
17:00	coventry	...unless cljs has been moving so fast it now has native macros, and I didn't notice.
17:01	Profpatsch	Huh. So I can’t use dommy in-browser?
17:01	coventry	Profpatsch: I would be googling for things like "using macros in brepl".
17:03	Profpatsch	Oh, I should use Austin, that seems to support interactive macroexpansion.
17:04	Profpatsch	But you are right, in brepl I need to first explicitly evaluate the namespace to make the reader expand the macro.
17:18	jtoy	how can this be true: (println (= "integer" (column-map (first x)))) but this prints false: (println (or (= "bigint" (column-map (first x)) (= "integer" (column-map (first x))))))
17:18	jtoy	im sure its some silly mistake, but I dont see it
17:20	coventry	jtoy: Try (println (or (= "bigint" (column-map (first x))) (= "integer" (column-map (first x)))))
17:20	coventry	(Your paren positions look wrong.)
17:20	jtoy	yes, thats it :(
17:20	jtoy	thx
17:21	jtoy	is there a simpler way to write that same expression?
17:21	coventry	(let [r (column-map (first x))] (println (or (= "bigint" r) (= "integer" r))))
17:21	hyPiRion	(boolean (some #{"bigint" "integer"} (column-map (first x))))
17:22	hyPiRion	wait er
17:22	coventry	But you might also want to look into an tree-editing mode, like paredit.
17:22	hyPiRion	(contains? #{"bigint" "integer"} (column-map (first x)))
17:22	jtoy	coventry: I do use paraedit, how would htat help me in that situation?
17:23	coventry	jtoy: It should have inserted balanced parens as you built the expression.
17:23	jtoy	coventry: probably from me doing too much editing
17:30	diogenes_	where can i see the clojure conj 13 videos? are they up yet?
17:44	mercwithamouth	question...say i used enlive opposed to enfocus....would the created markup code stress the backend or would it function just the same as all of the code were client side?
17:51	justin_smith	a good templating / rendering engine should not be too much of a load
17:52	justin_smith	I have not used enlive much in production though, except to destructure 3rd party data and render it, and there I was using a cache with a ttl to avoid mainly the overhead of fetching
17:53	justin_smith	but also having the side effect of not calling the rendering function for most requests
18:08	mercwithamouth	justin_smith: i see....i think i'm just going to use hiccup for the basics and enfocus or dommy. i'm toying with dommy at the moment but something tells me i'm going to go the enfocus route
18:15	noncom\|2	justin_smith: so, regarding timbre, sorted it out, mthanks, looking at the config contents. the file problem was due to wrong path. did not give an exception though
18:15	justin_smith	noncom\|2: cool, so otherwise that config to turn off stdout and turn on file logging was correct?
18:15	noncom\|2	yeah
18:33	waf	is there some sort of 'interceptor' function in clojure, where i can apply input/output transformations based on some condition?
18:33	waf	i'm not happy with this code: https://www.refheap.com/21394 and trying to find a more idiomatic way to write it
18:39	justin_smith	waf: the middleware pattern as used with ring is a nice way to do that stuff
18:39	justin_smith	a bunch of small functions that each do some action or transformation on the input, and you define your features / behaviors by how you line them all up
18:40	bellkev	Is there some way to use "require" on namespaces that have been dynamically created?
18:40	bellkev	Or, put another way, is there a more dynamic way to do something like what the amazonica AWS wrapper does here: https://github.com/mcohen01/amazonica/tree/master/src/amazonica/aws
18:40	justin_smith	(require '[some.ns :as alias]) will work for that
18:40	justin_smith	in a repl for example
18:41	chouser	bellkev: require calls various public functions such as alias and refer
18:41	justin_smith	bellkev: what file are you trying to point to there?
18:41	bellkev	I'm pointing to the collection of files
18:41	bellkev	Each one is just a tiny wrapper, that dynamically interns a bunch of functions into its namespace
18:41	justin_smith	that looks like a bunch of small namespaces that only exist to create side effects
18:42	waf	justin_smith: ah, interesting. this is a ring app, i'll lookin into pulling it out into middleware
18:42	waf	thanks!
18:42	bellkev	I was wondering if I could do a similar thing programatically with "create-ns" called on a big array of strings basically
18:43	bellkev	It seems to work, and I can call "use" on the generated namespaces, but if I try to "require" them, I get "file not found" exceptions...
18:43	chouser	bellkev: I'm not sure amazonica is the right approach, but you can absolutely create namespaces dynamically and manipulate them with functions.
18:44	justin_smith	yeah, I haven't looked at this in detail, but they are making some really weird design decisions here
18:44	justin_smith	the whole "namespace that only exists to configure some object as a side effect" thing has me skeptical
18:45	chouser	bellkev: oh, you want your users to be able to call require and bring in namespaces that may not actually exist as files on disk?
18:45	bellkev	Well, the motivation (and I have the same motivation) is to wrap a bunch of things that are "namespacey" with corresponding clojure namespaces
18:45	bellkev	chouser: that's right
18:46	bellkev	I mean, say what you will about the way amazonica is made, but using it is a joy compared to the Java api and feels very clojurey
18:46	zerokarmaleft	is it possible to "unmap" an imported java class via ns-unmap?
18:47	bellkev	Just do: (require '[amazonica.aws.ec2 :as ec2]) and then (ec2/create-instance {params})
18:47	bellkev	Which feels pretty nice
18:48	bellkev	As far as dynamically generating the namespaces though, if you do this: (create-ns 'foo.bar) then (require '[foo.bar :as bar]) you get a filenotfound exception
18:49	bellkev	Because it seems "require" needs a clj or .class file to be there...
18:50	justin_smith	bellkev: may help to look at the source of require, then the source of load-libs (which is what it calls) etc. until you find the sequence of calls that can map and load an ns without looking for a file
18:51	zerokarmaleft	my motivation is to recompile and re-intern a java class in a repl
18:51	justin_smith	bellkev: probably what you want is clojure.core/alias if you want the :as feature of require
18:52	justin_smith	zerokarmaleft: so you want the opposite of import, basically
18:52	amalloy	zerokarmaleft: why not just skip the import step altogether, and just use the class's full name?
18:52	amalloy	then you can get your recompile working, which is the hard part, and get back to import if you decide it matters
18:52	bellkev	Yeah, maybe... Except it would be nice if the users of the namespaces I'm making could treat them as normal namespaces, pick their own aliases with ":as", etc...
18:53	justin_smith	the other option is to give them a version of clojure.core/require that is not the real one
18:54	justin_smith	and potentially cause really weird bugs for people who do not realize you have replaced it
18:54	bellkev	justin_smith: you mentioned the questionable design choices of amazonica... can you think of an alternative approach to all this stuff?
18:54	bellkev	haha, yeah I have no qualms with causing weird bugs for people :P
18:54	coventry	Remind me never to run your stuff. :-)
18:55	justin_smith	bellkev: I'll have to consider it. Creating an object of the top level of a namespace is a bad idea.
18:55	zerokarmaleft	justin_smith: essentially, yes, though as amalloy points out, it's ancillary to the problem of recompiling and reloading
18:55	bellkev	I mean, another way to go about things would be to treat these namespaces as some kind of string constants or keys that get passed into generic functions that process them
18:56	justin_smith	bellkev: a namespace is a hash map where the keys are vars and the values are their definitions
18:56	bellkev	rather than dynamically generating a bunch of similar but differently named functions
18:56	justin_smith	bellkev: if you want weird behaviors that are not quite right for a namespace, then make those maps as regular maps
18:57	bellkev	You mean use regular maps if I don't want weird behaviors, right?
18:57	justin_smith	no, maps are open ended, you can do all sorts of stuff with them
18:57	justin_smith	namespaces are more restricted in terms of proper usage
18:57	amalloy	use regular maps if you want behaviors that are weird for namespaces
18:58	bellkev	oh, I see what you mean
18:58	coventry	I used a programmatically created namespace and vars in it for internal communication between invocations of a macro. But I wouldn't use it for an API.
18:58	justin_smith	yeah, that's what I meant
18:59	coventry	At least, not an API want people to program to. A short namespace can be useful for interactive repl work.
19:00	bellkev	Once created, these namespaces will be pretty normal namespaces (maps of vars/values)
19:00	bellkev	It's just the question of how to make them, or to use something besides namespaces
19:01	bellkev	Are there any good examples out there of libraries that use a whole bunch of (possibly nested) string constants? Because that's another way to think of this I suppose...
19:01	coventry	They're easy enough to make. The functions at the bottom of http://clojure.org/namespaces suffice. But it's too much magic.
19:01	justin_smith	having namespaces without files breaks a bunch of pretty reasonable assumptions about clojure code. At the very least make an empty namespace file with a comment that it is filled in programmatically in such and such way.
19:02	justin_smith	but even then I would be skeptical
19:02	bellkev	Maybe just a big map of keywords would be better?
19:03	bellkev	That could be used like (create-aws-resource (-> resources :ec2 :instance)?
19:03	justin_smith	I think so. It is idiomatic.
19:04	justin_smith	people will be less likely to hate you forever, because I totally expect a map to be built dynamically and not be represented literally in a file. But if I find a bug in using a namespace and I cannot even find a file defining it...
19:05	coventry	Where is amazonica making these namespaces It looks like it creates big maps.
19:05	bellkev	They do have a file per namespace
19:06	bellkev	But each file is just a little stub with a function in it that interns a bunch of functions into that namespace
19:06	justin_smith	well, no, a bunch of them just run some code on some other object
19:06	justin_smith	they just exist to make a side effect happen if you require them
19:06	justin_smith	which is awful
19:08	coventry	Oh, I see. Yeah, why would a simple function be inadequate to that purpose?
19:08	justin_smith	seriously
19:08	bellkev	Well, I think the stuff it's doing with other objects is using reflection to pull all the method names out of the Java API objects
19:09	bellkev	You guys mean use a simple function that can take some keyword/name or something and invoke the appropriate java method based on it? Rather than dynamically generate all the Clojure functions like amazonica does?
19:10	justin_smith	is that what amazonica is doing? I didn't get far enough in the inter-file spaghetti to even figure out that much
19:11	coventry	I suggest at least implementing it that way first, then maybe going back and making the convenience namespaces if it really seems to simplify the usage dramatically for some reason.
19:11	bellkev	Haha, if you think THAT'S inter-file spaghetti than you must not have to look at enterprise Java apps very much... :P
19:11	justin_smith	I strive to have higher standards
19:12	bellkev	Don't you see? MORE files means MORE robust software!
19:14	justin_smith	so amazonica.core has the functions which will take the various amazon classes and generate the functions in the apropriate namespaces which interop with that class?
19:15	bellkev	Yeah, that's right
19:15	justin_smith	so where would I go to figure out what functions actually exist - dynamically query the ns-exports in a repl?
19:16	bellkev	eeh, that or look at the Amazon Java API documentation and convert everything from CamelCase to hyphen-case
19:17	justin_smith	wouldn't it be less work to just use the interop forms on the original java objects?
19:19	bellkev	That AWS Java API makes you set up a request object for everything before calling one of the methods on the "client" object
19:19	bellkev	I haven't done too much Java interop in Clojure yet... Is there some easy way to call "new" on a class and map a Clojure hash map onto all its setters?
19:20	bellkev	Because if so, then it would be pretty easy to use the AWS Java API directly...
19:20	justin_smith	,(Date.)
19:20	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Unable to resolve classname: Date, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
19:20	justin_smith	,(java.util.Date.)
19:20	clojurebot	#inst "2013-12-02T00:20:34.944-00:00"
19:20	justin_smith	calling new is easy
19:20	bellkev	and setting a bunch of crap?
19:21	bellkev	just use standard Clojure map manipulation for that?
19:22	amalloy	https://github.com/flatland/uncle/blob/master/src/uncle/core.clj has some examples of using java's bean inspector to convert hashmaps into objects with setters, but it's kinda ant-focused so you can't just use it by hand
19:22	amalloy	er, can't just use it directly
19:25	justin_smith	,(doto (java.util.HashMap.) (.put 1 "hello") (.put 2 "world"))
19:25	clojurebot	{1 "hello", 2 "world"}
19:26	justin_smith	if you want automatic finding of the methods available and conversion to a map, there are things like bean and clojure.reflect. Amazonica uses the clojure.lang.Reflector class directly
19:29	amalloy	actually it looks like https://github.com/flatland/uncle/blob/master/src/uncle/core.clj#L25 sets properties according to a hashmap, in a way that is not dependent on ant at all, so you could try that if you want
19:29	bellkev	Well, I think keep using amazonica for now to interact with the AWS API, but for my own stuff (which is just manipulating a bunch of JSON) I'll try to keep things data-oriented and avoid too much namespace fiddling :)
19:29	TEttinger	,(java.util.HashMap. {"a" 1 "b" 2})
19:29	clojurebot	{"b" 2, "a" 1}
19:30	coventry	bellkev: Good call.
19:30	bellkev	Oh, thanks though amalloy that does look cool...
19:40	akhudek	is it possible to lazily parse a file with gloss? (e.g. if the file is bigger than available memory)
19:40	ztellman	akhudek: yes
19:41	akhudek	ztellman: do I need to use channels for that to work?
19:41	ztellman	see gloss.io/lazy-decode-all
19:41	ztellman	and no
19:44	akhudek	ztellman: ok, thanks, I'll play around with it.
20:20	rubber-duck	if I put clj file in the same folder as my cljs files and use :require-macros it should get used by cljsbuild right ?
20:21	akhudek	ztellman: what does lazy-decode-all take as input? A bytebuffer?
20:35	rubber-duck	why would cljs compiler not load my clj macro file even when it's finding it on the path ?
20:36	rubber-duck	I intentionally put a error inside the file it's not complaining, all it's saying is "WARNING: No such namespace: at line 1 client/prodtr/app.cljs" and complains about use of undeclared vars from that ns
20:36	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
20:51	seangrove	Alright, now for the other horrible half: given a datastructure, sync the UI state.
20:52	amalloy	rubber-duck: your ns form is probably broken
20:54	Bronsa	andyf: fixed #TANAL-15, I had to rewrite the uniquify pass but now is much simpler and works as expected, thanks for finding that bug
20:56	rubber-duck	amalloy, I just moved the clj file in to a different folder and it worked :\
20:57	rubber-duck	amalloy, it was in top level folder with cljs files, I created a subfolder "macro" and referenced foo.macro.myns and it worked where foo.myns wouldn't work - looks like a cljs bug to me
21:06	akhudek	hmm, what's a good strategy for lazily (and quickly) loading a stream of variable sized binary data frames?
21:06	bitemyapp	akhudek: lazy-seq?
21:06	akhudek	that doesn't really address the file buffering problems
21:07	akhudek	I've managed to use gloss to write this sort of data quickly.
21:07	akhudek	but reading it back lazily requires managing the buffering
21:07	akhudek	which isn't that easy because each data frame can be a different length
21:07	bitemyapp	your kingdom for Data.Conduit? :P
21:07	bitemyapp	the data frame length is a non-issue so far as I know.
21:09	akhudek	switching to haskell might be a bit of work :-)
21:09	bitemyapp	explain to me how lazy-seq is a problem with buffering?
21:10	akhudek	lazy-seq just allows you to construct lazy sequences
21:10	bitemyapp	right, and programming languages allow you to construct programs.
21:10	bitemyapp	how is lazy-seq not empowering you to solve this problem?
21:11	bitemyapp	if you need read-ahead buffering slap a seque on top of the lazy-seq.
21:12	bitemyapp	akhudek: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/seque
21:12	akhudek	if you have variable length frames, you can query each for it's length and read in exactly that length
21:12	akhudek	but that's probably not a good buffering strategy if the lengths are smallish
21:12	bitemyapp	keep it simple stupid.
21:27	amalloy	akhudek: you're worrying about a non-issue. generations of computer scientists have made buffered file i/o easy for you. just read from the file using a handle that buffers, and then it doesn't matter if your reads are large or small
21:32	akhudek	amalloy: that's a good point. I'm going to blame my not seeing the obvious on a lack of sleep.
21:33	kylev	just call it a premature optimization and call it good :)
21:33	kylev	read stuff, worry about efficient reading later
21:33	kylev	(and then discover you didn't need to worry later)
21:35	akhudek	I think gloss not being able to read from a stream is throwing me off. It can handle reading variable sized frames, but it appears to require me to provide it a bytebuffer of exactly the right size to decode a frame, which means I have to write my own decoding code anyways. Confusing.
21:37	hiredman	akhudek: I would guess it can take of a seq of bytebuffers
21:37	andyf	Bronsa: It was a lucky accident. Thanks for the quick fix.
21:45	also	anyone here use counterclockwise?
21:45	also	trying to figure out how to debug into leiningen dependencies
21:46	justin_smith	lein deps :tree helps with debugging your dependencies
21:46	also	i mean, i want to use the eclipse debugger
21:47	also	to step into a java class
21:47	justin_smith	so wait, this sounds like it has nothing to do with leiningen
21:48	also	it has to do with the treatment of leiningen dependencies by counterclockwise
21:49	also	"The JAR of this class file belongs to container 'Leiningen dependencies' which does not allow modifications to source attachments on its entries"
21:49	also	"Leiningen dependencies" here being something provided by counterclockwise
21:50	justin_smith	OK, I thought I could help, but that is clearly very counterclockwise specific
21:50	justin_smith	good luck
21:53	also	:) thanks anyway
21:54	also	what's the current state of the art in debugging clojure applications?
21:54	also	I tried counterclockwise simply because i used to use eclipse
21:54	seangrove	also: It's not very sophisticated, tooling wise
21:55	dnolen	also: in CCW it supposedly "just works"?
21:55	seangrove	Most people just work in a repl with interactive development. There is ritz if you can get it to work.
21:55	also	dnolen: it seemed to work pretty well in my local clojure source
21:55	justin_smith	I heard good things about cursive, I think you need to sign up for the beta to get that
21:55	also	but not so well with the java dependencies
21:56	justin_smith	I have seen hlship demonstrate debugging his java deps with cursive
21:56	justin_smith	cursive is also an eclipse plugin iirc
21:58	also	justin_smith: intellij, looks like
21:58	also	but i'm not picky
21:58	justin_smith	ahh ok
22:00	also	i think the easiest path for me is going to be starting the repl with -Xdebug and connecting from a java ide
22:04	justin_smith	with schmetterling we have been able to view both clojure and java stackframes, and view locals in each
22:04	justin_smith	it doesn't do source browsing per se though
22:08	also	justin_smith: i hadn't seen that, thanks!. it looks interesting, even if it doesn't help right now
22:09	justin_smith	it is still a young project, so it should be acquiring new features shortly. But it still has some good use cases already
22:12	akhudek	hiredman: think you are right, but it still seems to require each bytebuffer to represent a complete seq of frames
22:16	bitemyapp	oh we're still discussing this?
22:17	bitemyapp	akhudek: can I give you some drugs so you relax and get back to coding?
22:19	akhudek	bitemyapp: suspect you are the only one worked up here
22:20	technomancy	~gentlemen
22:20	clojurebot	You can't fight in here. This is the war room.
22:23	indigo	bitemyapp: Drugs?!?!?
22:25	technomancy	also: factoids are triggered with ~ and eval is triggered with ,
22:25	technomancy	but you kind of have to know the factoids up front
22:26	technomancy	unless you trigger them by accident
22:26	technomancy	how?
22:26	clojurebot	with style and grace
22:26	seangrove	hah
22:26	seangrove	~technomancy
22:26	clojurebot	technomancy is to blame for all failures
22:27	bitemyapp	akhudek: I'm perfectly chill, I'm just trying to get you to where I am.
22:27	seangrove	clojurebot: technomancy is a god amongst men.
22:27	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
22:27	technomancy	~hiredman
22:27	clojurebot	hiredman <3 XeLaTeX
22:27	bitemyapp	akhudek: you are way too hung up on bits that don't particularly matter. Just write something that works.
22:27	bitemyapp	~technomancy
22:27	clojurebot	technomancy is a god amongst men.
22:27	technomancy	oh you
22:28	brehaut	he just wants a free copy of lein
22:28	also	someday, clojurebot will know my name
22:28	amalloy	clojurebot: also is this real life?
22:28	clojurebot	Excuse me?
22:28	amalloy	oh, i forgot, he can't learn factoids ending with ?
22:29	amalloy	that's lame
22:29	technomancy	also: there's like a 1% chance that any random line will be interpreted as being addressed to clojurebot, so that leads to some crazy stuff too
22:29	technomancy	plus the wacky inference engine
22:29	technomancy	~inventory
22:29	clojurebot	I am carrying 0) a poorly-calibrated inference engine, currently leaking 1) a well-worn copy of clojure 1.2 tucked deep away inside a classloader 2) the last shreds of what was once my sanity
22:29	indigo	~bitemyapp
22:29	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
22:30	bitemyapp	I don't have a factoid.
22:30	brehaut	clojurebot: drop sanity
22:30	clojurebot	excusez-moi
22:30	brehaut	clojure: drop shreds
22:30	brehaut	clojurebot: drop shreds
22:30	clojurebot	Huh?
22:31	brehaut	these text adventures are all the same. i can never get the right verbs and nouns
22:31	bitemyapp	~APL is a comonad
22:31	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
22:31	seangrove	hahaha
22:31	bitemyapp	~APL
22:31	clojurebot	APL is a comonad
22:31	seangrove	clojurebot: brehaut is eaten by a grue
22:31	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
22:32	bitemyapp	~APL is the language of choice of octopodes
22:32	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
22:32	bitemyapp	eggscellent.
22:32	akhudek	bitemyapp: I know how to write this myself, just though that gloss would do it with less hassle, but it doesn't seem to address this use case. Not a big deal.
22:38	bitemyapp	~also is enlightened
22:38	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
22:38	bitemyapp	ding ding ding, we have a winner.
22:58	justin_smith	so how long until you can get "micro-drone" instances via aws?
23:20	xpe	I'm following the steps on http://pedestal.io/documentation/service-war-deployment/
23:21	xpe	I've got the jetty dependencies in a leiningen :dev profile
23:21	xpe	when I examine the generated WAR, they are in the libs directory, which I think may be a problem
23:21	justin_smith	xpe: why would you have a jetty dependency if you are deploying a war?
23:21	xpe	justin_smith: I don't want one
23:22	xpe	but I want to keep it in the project.clj so I can still run the repl and run-dev command
23:22	justin_smith	the url you posted says "service war deployment"
23:22	xpe	justin_smith: yes, I know that :) I'm leading up to my point, you were too fast
23:22	justin_smith	oh, sorry
23:22	xpe	it looks like mvn dependency:copy-dependencies is paying no heed to the :dev profile -- it seems to be copying everything
23:22	xpe	I need to confirm that
23:23	xpe	side note: lein deps :tree doesn't distinguish between profiles either
23:23	noprompt	in tbaldridge's macro videos i noticed that when he evaluates a form in a buffer it is copied into the repl as well; does anyone know how that's configured?
23:25	coventry	noprompt: He gave code for doing that in the github repository for his core.async talk at the recent conj.
23:25	xpe	justin_smith you see that I would want to be able to run in the REPL and still deploy, right?
23:25	justin_smith	xpe: looking at that, I wonder why lein ring uberwar wouldn't work with a pedastal project? it is much simpler than those steps
23:25	justin_smith	xpe: right
23:25	coventry	noprompt: https://github.com/halgari/clojure-conj-2013-core.async-examples#usage
23:25	justin_smith	xpe: I have used lein ring uberwar and had no container conflicts
23:25	noprompt	coventry: thanks!
23:26	xpe	justin_smith: thanks I will give it a look. I'm glad I did the steps, though, because now I see what is happening in extreme detail
23:28	xpe	justin_smith: you've used it with pedestal, am I understanding you right? with Jetty? Tomcat? something else?
23:29	justin_smith	not with pedastel
23:29	justin_smith	that's why I was asking why it wouldn't work with it
23:30	justin_smith	I doubt they are so different from what I have deployed that the ring uberwar task would break
23:30	justin_smith	specifically various versions of caribou, deployed to tomcat containers
23:34	xpe	justin_smith: I'm skeptical about `lein ring uberwar`. It is yelling at me: for not having `:ring {:handler your.app/handler}`
23:34	justin_smith	you have a handler right?
23:34	xpe	I'm sure it works great for ring, but I don't think it is meant for pedestal
23:34	justin_smith	that key is used during war generation
23:34	justin_smith	OK
23:35	justin_smith	oh wait, I thought pedastal used ring
23:35	justin_smith	shows you how much I know
23:35	justin_smith	oh wait
23:35	justin_smith	yes it does use ring
23:35	justin_smith	just tell it where the handler is
23:38	xpe	justin_smith: I'm no expert, but I remember the pedestal team modifying some parts of ring to work with interceptors
23:38	justin_smith	oh, ok
23:38	xpe	the other catch is that I don't have the "standard" ring handler lying around in my app
23:38	justin_smith	if there isn't a ring handler (or the equivalent), then yeah lein ring uberwar won't work
23:38	xpe	in any case, I have no fear of doing this "by hand" for now
23:39	justin_smith	what do you mean by standard ring handler?
23:39	justin_smith	like there is no one function that puts requests into the middlewares?
23:39	xpe	justin_smith: I'm not really sure what I meant by that :) just referring to what the lein ring plugin wanted me to point to
23:39	xpe	justin_smith: I'll put a gist up
23:40	justin_smith	the handler is the function that would take a request, pump it through the middleware, and return the response
23:40	justin_smith	I see that pedastal splits this up into two stages, but there should still be one entery point
23:42	xpe	justin_smith: maybe so. https://gist.github.com/xpe/d8644065ada8e5ffdc6f
23:43	justin_smith	based on the service-war-deployment page you linked above, it looks like YOUR_APP_SERVER_NAMESPACE/servlet-service would be the analog
23:43	justin_smith	and I could have come to the same conclusion from seing your gist
23:43	justin_smith	heh
23:44	xpe	justin_smith: so, I don't mind doing the steps by hand per the pedestal page
23:44	xpe	i'm really close, I have scripts
23:44	justin_smith	OK
23:44	xpe	the problem is my :dev profile is getting included in the libs
23:44	xpe	i'd like to find a way to tweak the maven command, if possible, to only copy over my main deps
23:44	justin_smith	you can prune things you don't want it to have from the jar, right?
23:45	xpe	justin_smith: i mean, sure, by hand, but I'm sure maven can figure it out? or maybe I can borrow some leiningen code
23:45	xpe	if the lein ring plugin can do it, the information is there somewhere
23:46	xpe	justin_smith: thanks for taking a look
23:46	justin_smith	there must be an argument to tell it to use the production / deployment profile
23:46	justin_smith	which would not include dev
23:46	justin_smith	np
23:46	justin_smith	thought it would be simpler
23:46	xpe	re: argument: exactly
23:47	justin_smith	pedestal looks interesting, but since it is made for end-to-end clojure it didn't really work for our own use case
23:47	justin_smith	our front end guys are not all excited about switching over from html/js to edn templates and clojurescript
23:47	bitemyapp	justin_smith: pedestal offers the most advantage when you're doing a lot of data chucking back and forth between server and the smart web-client.
23:47	justin_smith	makes sense
23:48	bitemyapp	if you don't have a relatively small number of complex views, it's not going to make a lot of sense.
23:48	xpe	FWIW, lein profiles are really powerful: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/stable/doc/PROFILES.md
23:48	justin_smith	but as I said, the people we have writing the web client stuff aren't clojure people, so it would be a hard sell for us
23:48	seangrove	technomancy: Go get 'em! https://twitter.com/ericpallen/status/407356656113045504
23:49	xpe	hmm "In order to prevent profile settings from being propagated to other projects that depend upon yours, the :default profiles are removed from your project when generating the pom, jar, and uberjar"
23:50	xpe	also "By default the :dev, :provided, :user, :system, and :base profiles are activated for each task, but their settings are not propagated downstream to projects that depend upon yours."
23:50	also	interesting promotion on twitter from t-mobile ceo: http://files.ryanberdeen.com/Sjb7
23:52	xpe	justin_smith: I learned a nice command: lein with-profile base deps :tree
23:53	justin_smith	well that's a chain of two
23:53	justin_smith	with-profile
23:53	justin_smith	and deps :tree
23:55	xpe	justin_smith: I had to chain them to get the particular deps tree I wanted
23:56	justin_smith	yeah, just saying
23:56	xpe	it is not entirely obvious (to me) about which profile is active for which lein task. I think they vary.
23:57	xpe	strike that. I just had to re-read what I wrote above