#clojure – 2013-11-30

2013-11-30

00:19	brainproxy	is there an option for the cljs compiler to include the sources in the generated .map file?
00:36	technomancy	yaaay sweet new slamhound release with a fancy screencast from mr. guns: http://vimeo.com/80650659
00:36	technomancy	<3
00:42	majyk	yeah that was impressive, I want to use slamhound now!
00:47	bitemyapp	(inc guns)
00:47	lazybot	⇒ 1
01:17	bitemyapp	`cbp: boo
01:19	ivan	that was impressive, I am using slamhound now
03:03	logic_prog	in core.async, is there any _non_blocking_ put? (a channel with 10 elements might still buffer/cause a wait)
03:05	amalloy	logic_prog: the point of >! is that it doesn't actually block, it just sorta registers a callback so that when there's room it can start back up
03:05	logic_prog	well no, suppose I need a "multiplexer of sorts"
03:05	logic_prog	where on a update, I need to message 1000 different ports
03:05	logic_prog	I think, if the first >! on the first port blocks, the other 999 don't receive their messages
03:05	logic_prog	so >! doesn't block a java-thread, but it blocks the go-thread, no?
03:06	amalloy	so start a thousand go blocks. they're cheap, right?
03:06	logic_prog	so I start a new go block for every message I need to send?
03:06	logic_prog	from within a go block?
03:06	logic_prog	I have never thought about coding like this
03:06	nightfly	welcome to erlang!
03:07	logic_prog	this is like saying: you need to go from LA to NY? dig your own tunnel from LA to NY, labor is cheap
03:07	amalloy	if you want to send to a thousand of them all at once, and you worry some of them may be unwilling to receive the message, that's the solution that jumps out at me; but i'm not a core.async expert
03:07	logic_prog	are go blocks in core.async as cheap as erlang threads?
03:07	amalloy	logic_prog: that seems like a totally irrelevant analogy?
03:07	logic_prog	it's a bad analogy
03:07	logic_prog	but something I previously thought was expensive
03:07	logic_prog	is apparently now very very cheap
03:07	logic_prog	and this is now warping my thinking
03:09	logic_prog	alright, one more dumbass question
03:09	logic_prog	is there something like "gops" where it lists all go processes/threads ?
03:10	logic_prog	s/go/core.async/
03:11	amalloy	i'm pretty sure there isn't; i don't think it would be possible in cljs, and i'm not sure on the jvm
03:12	logic_prog	so I'm writing multiple go blocks that while (while true ... blocks in them)
03:12	logic_prog	and it's not clear to me when they'll get gc-ed
03:14	amalloy	i mean, never, right? you told them to work forever, and there's no way to stop that other than throwing an exception
03:18	bitemyapp	logic_prog: set up control channels with alts!
03:19	bitemyapp	logic_prog: or promises
03:19	bitemyapp	logic_prog: short-circuit the loops if you send something down those channels.
03:22	amalloy	bitemyapp: promises? doesn't blocking on a promise go against everything core.async stands for?
03:22	bitemyapp	amalloy: you don't block on the promise.
03:22	bitemyapp	you check realized?
03:22	bitemyapp	control channel is better.
03:23	amalloy	i guess that's okay, but it does seem like just a bad way of doing a control channel
03:23	bitemyapp	lets you short-circuit without waiting for a run of the loop
03:23	bitemyapp	amalloy: the suggestion was an artifact of something I did that didn't involve core.async
03:23	bitemyapp	I'm just putting options out there
03:23	bitemyapp	if I have to hold the standards of everything I toss out there to perfection, nobody gets any help
03:24	bitemyapp	so it's best not to be petty and disincentivize contribution when they're really not that bad or far off and the trade-offs are understood.
03:32	logic_prog	amalloy: do you have a blog? your insight of "create a new go block" is changing the way I think about core.async/cloojure
03:33	amalloy	haven't blogged anything for like three years. also haven't written any core.async
03:33	logic_prog	i've been playing with erlang recently, and this allows me to work in some erlang style error techniques
04:00	bitemyapp	logic_prog: http://github.com/michaeldrogalis/dire/
04:00	logic_prog	yeah
04:00	logic_prog	saw that today
04:01	logic_prog	very nice
04:30	makkalot	hi, having to use global variables when doing testing in clojure seems broken to me, can't i just pass arguments from fixture to testing function ?
04:38	bitemyapp	makkalot: let
04:39	makkalot	when i do let, variables are not passed from fixture to test , any example ?
04:39	bitemyapp	makkalot: let inside the test
04:40	makkalot	bitemyapp, then what is the purpose of fixture ?
04:40	amalloy	fixtures can only perform side effects, really
04:40	bitemyapp	you're the one complaining about using fixtures.
04:41	makkalot	bitemyapp, not complaining trying to figure out the way of proper testing without defining lots of globals
04:42	makkalot	amalloy, that makes more sense
04:43	yedi	bitemyapp, are you callen
04:44	logic_prog	I would like to validate a string vs a regex. In particular, I want to take a string, and strip out all characters taht does not satisfy [a-zA-Z0-9]. So for example "../foo" becomes "foo"
04:44	logic_prog	How do I do this in clojure/java ?
04:46	Rhymor_	,(apply str (re-seq #"[a-zA-Z0-9]" "../foo"))
04:46	clojurebot	"foo"
04:47	Rhymor_	don't know bout performance
04:49	logic_prog	this is fine
04:49	logic_prog	it's amking sure no one is doing funky things in their username
04:49	logic_prog	thanks for the code line
04:52	amalloy	yedi: yes
04:53	alsm	This is probably really simple but how can I replace the whole content of a vector in an atom when doing a swap! ?
04:53	yedi	no wonder i was so entertained by their msgs
04:54	alsm	I have a two value vector and a function that returns two values, I want to change the original with the two values from the function
04:55	Rhymor_	alsm: does your function return a vector, or a sequence? Do you want to pass the old vector as a parameter?
04:58	alsm	let me just check, I think I return a vector and I do pass the elements of the old one as parameters
04:58	Rhymor_	alsm then that's just what swap! does.
04:58	alsm	(swap! me (next-location (first @me) (second @me) (second robo-info) 15.0)) is the line
04:59	alsm	and I get Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Key must be integer
05:00	alsm	referencing that line in my code
05:00	Rhymor_	,(doc swap!)
05:00	clojurebot	"([atom f] [atom f x] [atom f x y] [atom f x y & ...]); Atomically swaps the value of atom to be: (apply f current-value-of-atom args). Note that f may be called multiple times, and thus should be free of side effects. Returns the value that was swapped in."
05:01	Rhymor_	I take it next-location does not return a function?
05:01	alsm	nope
05:01	Rhymor_	You want something like (swap! me #(next-location (first %) (second %) ...
05:02	alsm	println on it's output shows a vector; [-0.20089877715863735 51.49498633535638]
05:02	Rhymor_	In your line you are passing the result of the next-location call to swap! instead of a function
05:03	pepijndevos	Is Docjure still maintained? It seems to have a lot of unmerged pull requests
05:03	alsm	ahh, ok, thanks
05:03	francis_wolke	http://common-lisp.net/project/bknr/static/lmman/toc.html
05:04	francis_wolke	Is anyone able to see the contents of the links on that page?
05:04	francis_wolke	Wait.
05:04	francis_wolke	nevermind
05:18	alsm	Rhymor_: thanks, sorted that now.
05:18	Rhymor_	yw
05:27	makkalot	how do you unit test core.async on clojurescript ?
05:31	amalloy	i think that's still in the "banging rocks together" phase, makkalot, although maybe dnolen knows of something
05:33	makkalot	amalloy, take! doesnt work on clojurescript right ?
05:34	amalloy	isn't that blocking? if so, it clearly wouldn't be implemented for js
05:35	makkalot	amalloy, yeah
05:36	makkalot	amalloy, my tests are finishing before my go block finish
05:37	amalloy	i have no idea how to test cljs, let alone core.async
05:37	makkalot	amalloy, thanks
05:45	yedi	(inc bitemyapp)
05:45	lazybot	⇒ 15
05:53	dsrx	was going to suggest makkalot look at the core.async cljs tests for inspiration
05:55	solidus_	why is pprint throwing exception: RuntimeException Unmatched delimiter: ) clojure.lang.Util.runtimeException (Util.java:219)
05:55	solidus_	it happens when i try to pprint expandmacro output
06:01	modulus	Hi there. Is there a way to do conditional binding, so if x is true, y gets bound to z, otehrwise to w, and then code runs using the value of y?
06:03	Rhymor	modulus: (let [y (if x z w)] ())
06:03	Pupeno	Is the book The Joy of Clojure still good or is it out of date?
06:03	modulus	ah, so i'm allowed to use if expressions on let bindings...
06:04	modulus	should have guessed, thanks a lot!
06:04	arcatan	you can use any expressions there
06:05	modulus	because of the vector form of it i had the impression that i could not
06:06	modulus	that's going to simplify my code some, i was going to put the post-binding code on an anon function and do (if x (let [y z] (anon) etc
06:09	jph-	does clojure handle open paths like "~/.config"
06:10	jph-	or do i have to lookup $HOME and create/expand the path string?
06:11	llasram	Empiricism will answer many questions :-)
06:11	llasram	But turning `~` into the user home directory is a shell feature, not an OS feature
06:12	jph-	yeh i know, i wasnt sure if there was any automagic baked in
06:12	arcatan	i don't think there's a function do that in the standard library
06:13	jph-	guess i'll lookup $HOME then
06:13	llasram	Clojure just uses the Java facilities there on the JVM. The older File class I don't believe does, but the Java 7 Path class may
06:13	jph-	yeh i come from rubyland, i dont know the java std library yet
06:14	arcatan	jph-: i guess the java way of looking it up would be (System/getProperty "user.home")
06:15	jph-	yeh i just figured i'd ask here instead of googling for a change
06:15	jph-	:)
06:27	alsm	Does anyone know why the following loop might work once then get a null pointe exception?
06:27	alsm	(while (not (empty? @robots))
06:27	alsm	(do (let [[robo-id robo-info] (first @robots)]
06:27	alsm	I haven't included the rest of the body
06:28	alsm	robots is an atom with a priority-map
06:28	amalloy	modulus: generally in clojure every expression has a value (even if it's nil), and you can use any expression in a context where a value is expected. if, let, and so on aren't special "statements"
06:28	amalloy	alsm: because all the code you decided not to include mangles robots in some way
06:29	alsm	pretty sure it doesn't, although something outside it does update it
06:29	xificurC	Hi, I am working through some code from 'Clojure in Action' but I have trouble with the simplest things. I have a lein project with two files in src/chapter08 - date_operations.clj and date_operations_spec.clj . However when trying to evaluate (ns chapter08.date-operations-spec (:use chapter08.date-operations)) I get an error saying the file is not on my classpath
06:30	amalloy	modulus: eg, you can even use another let inside the right-hand side of a let: ##(let [coords (let [xs [-1 0 1]] (for [x xs, y xs] [x y]))] coords)
06:30	lazybot	⇒ ([-1 -1] [-1 0] [-1 1] [0 -1] [0 0] [0 1] [1 -1] [1 0] [1 1])
06:30	alsm	is there not a way for it to reevaluate reference when it loops?
06:30	amalloy	(that's usually not the most readable choice, but sometimes it can be nice)
06:31	llasram	xificurC: FYI, /Clojure in Action/ is quite out of date. Are you sure the "not found" is for the included source namespace, and not for a missing obsolete contrib namespace?
06:33	xificurC	llasram: I know its a bit out of date but I thought it might be a nice start. I only have that one :use inside the ns, so it has to be it
06:34	llasram	xificurC: refheap the full stack trace?
06:35	llasram	xificurC: And it's really, really out of date. Principles haven't changed, but you'll have a struggle to get any big chunks of example code working due to the contrib changes
06:37	xificurC	llasram: https://www.refheap.com/21366
06:38	xificurC	llasram: really? well thats a shame
06:39	llasram	I think Amit said at the Conj that he's working on a new edition, but understandably has his hands full with other things
06:41	llasram	Huh, yeah, totally just can't find `chapter08/date_operations.clj`. Double-checking filenames is the only concrete suggestion I have ATM :-/
06:41	xificurC	llasram: so is there another book/resource with some real code examples (that preferably arent 10 lines long)?
06:42	llasram	Are you just looking for larger chunks of code to read?
06:42	xificurC	llasram: well, some explanation of the code would be nice too
06:43	xificurC	the names are ok, can there be something wrong with my setup?
06:43	llasram	Assuming you launched your REPL from inside the Leiningen project, nothing obvious comes to my mind
06:44	azsxdcfvgbhnjm	ciao a tutti
06:45	llasram	xificurC: If you want a book, /Clojure Programming/ (Emerick, Carper, & Grand) has a few longer examples
06:46	xificurC	llasram: I launched it from a project's subfolder I think.. restarting it helped.. I feel like IT Crowd'd
06:46	llasram	Heh
06:46	llasram	xificurC: But there's plenty of readable code in real projects. I actually think Leiningen is a good place to start. It's well designed, the code is clear, and is something you're already actually using :-)
06:48	xificurC	so theres 'Clojure Programming' and 'Programming Clojure', nice
06:48	llasram	Yeah... May actually be worse than Scala's /Programming Scala/ vs /Programming in Scala/
06:49	xificurC	llasram: thanks for the tips. I am not just learning the language but also trying to learn how to program, ehm, right?
06:49	xificurC	my daily job is VBA coding which holds me pretty far from right :)
06:49	llasram	Ahhhh
06:50	llasram	Well, I think reading real well-designed code is going to be the biggest help there. That's been my experience anyway!
06:53	xificurC	llasram: yeah thanks :) If you feel like giving more pointers, here is what I played around with yesterday https://www.refheap.com/21367 based on this http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Flipping_bits_game
06:57	llasram	xificurC: Cool! I don't have the attention to dig too deeply, but one comment: I see you calling `recur` (and `loop`) several times. In practice, you can usually avoid explicit recursion/looping by using `map` etc or `reduce`, usually making your code clearer and more flexible in the process
06:59	llasram	Oh, and just because I both love and hate `>`/`<` in lisps: (and (> fst-int 47) (< fst-int 58)) -> (< 47 fst-int 58)
07:02	amalloy	xificurC: it's not clearly "better", but you might note that (if x (grid-indices grid :row foo) (grid-indices grid :col bar)) could be written as (apply grid-indices (if x [:row foo] [:col bar]))
07:03	xificurC	llasram: thanks for the < > tip! I try to use map/filter/reduce all the time so when you see a loop/recur it means i didnt know how to write it otherwise
07:03	amalloy	that pattern seems to come up a few times in your code, so surely at least once it would help to switch to my way :)
07:05	amalloy	xificurC: line 59 looks kinda like (let [goal (first (drop-while #{grid} (iterate shuffle grid)))])
07:07	amalloy	the loop in line 28 is another iterate: you want (nth (iterate (fn [grid] ...) grid) (* 3 n))
07:11	xificurC	amalloy: thanks for the tips! On the last note - what you suggest creates a list of steps of the shuffled grids and then taking the nth of it, correct?
07:11	amalloy	yeah
07:11	xificurC	wouldnt think of that in a year
07:11	amalloy	it's a handy pattern to keep in mind
07:11	amalloy	comes up a lot
07:12	xificurC	I was thinking more in the terms of repeat first but that doesnt work (or wouldnt know how it would)
07:12	xificurC	the imperative mind
07:12	amalloy	fwiw i'd probably actually write it as (-> grid (->> iterate (fn ...)) (nth (* 3 n)))
07:13	amalloy	but if you're not comfortable with all the arrows yet, the original way is fine
07:13	amalloy	er, (-> grid (->> (iterate (fn ...))) (nth (* 3 n))). all these parens are tricky to get right in irc sometimes
07:14	xificurC	amalloy: arrows are nice
07:14	xificurC	thanks for the tips
07:14	xificurC	nested arrows, thats a bit trickier
07:15	xificurC	I'll have to dwelve on that for a day
07:15	xificurC	does the overall design make sense though?
07:16	amalloy	eh, i dunno. i was looking through a microscope
07:16	amalloy	didn't look atrocious, but i didn't try to figure out what the overall goal is
07:18	xificurC	amalloy: okay, thanks a lot
07:18	xificurC
08:12	dsrx	amalloy_: enable paredit in ERC, problem solved ;)
08:16	jph-	gotta say, coming from ruby, clojure feels like a functional ruby
08:16	jph-	at least it's dead easy to pickup
08:28	jph-	what's the sexy web framework of the moment with clojure?
08:41	heiz	Hello! Tell me please how I can enable leiningen profile by default. I expect I need override default profile or something like that...
08:42	cYmen	Good morning!
08:43	justin_smith	heiz: maybe you want lein with-profile :something ...
08:45	heiz	I have some profile, but I don't want run "lein with-profile some-profile" each time.
08:45	hyPiRion	heiz: Just place stuff directly in the project.clj profile, or if you want to have this on a user-default basis, put the details within the :user profile in ~/.lein/project.clj
08:46	hyPiRion	I meant ~/.lein/profiles.clj
08:46	cYmen	oohh..could I use that to always have clojure/tools.trace available in my repl?
08:47	justin_smith	cYmen: for that use ~/.lein/profile.clj :plugins
08:47	llasram	cYmen: That sort of thing is pretty much what the :user profile is for :-)
08:47	justin_smith	that is how I make sure I always have criterium at dev time
08:47	heiz	But what if I have two profiles which I want to be able to switch.
08:47	hyPiRion	cYmen: sure thing, but be a bit careful when doing that in a project which either has some stuff tools.trace depends on, or tools.trace itself
08:48	cYmen	Why?
08:48	clojurebot	Why is why
08:48	justin_smith	versioning for example
08:48	justin_smith	or things working locally and not on deploy
08:48	heiz	Indeed I don't understant the line "The :default profile is defined to be a composite of [:base :system :user :provided :dev], but you can change this in your project.clj just like any other profile." from leiningen tutorial
08:49	justin_smith	heiz: it merges all of those profiles to construct default
08:49	hyPiRion	cYmen: It may break the project because you enforce some other version of the dependency
08:50	heiz	How can I add my profile to this list of profiles?
08:52	justin_smith	heiz: lein with-profile takes a comma separated list of profiles to use
08:52	justin_smith	you can make a shell script if you find that tedious
08:52	hyPiRion	justin_smith: or lein aliases :)
08:53	justin_smith	hyPiRion: a shell alias? or is there a lein alias command I have not upgraded to yet?
08:53	hyPiRion	https://github.com/hyPiRion/dotfiles/blob/master/.lein/profiles.clj <- lein math sets up some dependencies and imports their names
08:53	justin_smith	ahh cool, so much to learn
08:58	cYmen	General question: Do you usually create a leiningen project for repl experiments?
08:58	stdev	@cYmen yes because vim-fireplace
08:59	justin_smith	I usually start with an existing project with similar enough dependencies, up to a certain complexity
08:59	stdev	(equally applicable to M-x nrepl connect, non)
08:59	justin_smith	stdev you likely mean nrepl-jack-in
09:00	stdev	@jph- looks like compojure and mustache to me
09:00	justin_smith	I prefer to start repls from the terminal regardless, and connect by port
09:00	stdev	@justin_smith yeah that one
09:00	stdev	been bouncing between emacs+nrepl, slimv, and fireplace tring to find what i like
09:00	justin_smith	also you can nrepl-jack-in from a non-project dir, you just get a default non-project repl iirc
09:01	stdev	keeo forgetting whats what
09:01	jph-	stdev: im trying out caribou atm, seems interesting
09:01	stdev	but you don't get dep-management, right?
09:01	stdev	@jph- sweet, will peek
09:01	jph-	stdev: http://let-caribou.in/
09:01	jph-	comes with a nice video
09:02	justin_smith	stdev: yeah, lein just gives it a projectless repl
09:02	jph-	and admin/migrations/etc baked in
09:02	justin_smith	so another option is not making a project yet, and using pomegranate to load dependencies
09:02	justin_smith	but I find the pomegranate syntax a little clumsy, easier to edit a project.clj
09:02	stdev	ooh! today i learned and it's not even 9 here yet
09:02	justin_smith	jph-: oooh you're talking about the thing I helped write
09:02	stdev	thank you @justin_smith, @jph-
09:03	jph-	justin_smith: i'm used to padrino in rubyland, and caribou feels very familiar
09:03	jph-	i lvoe the web-based model generation, perfect for a lazy dev like me
09:03	rubber-duck	is there a naming convention for async functions (ie. functions that return aync channels) ?
09:04	justin_smith	the lineage is that the senior partner at my company made a rapid website builder with a cms in php - and hammered out lots of websites real fast and built a company. Then they upgraded to ruby because php can get hard to maintain. Then they upgraded from ruby to clojure because ruby inflates hosting costs
09:05	justin_smith	jph-: cool. glad you like it.
09:05	jph-	justin_smith: it'll be interesting to see how it works as i get further in
09:05	jph-	i haven't had to learn a whole bunch of weird rake tasks (or equivalent) to do anything yet
09:05	cYmen	amalloy_: Is there any way to view solutions with low code golc scores on 4clj?
09:06	justin_smith	jph-: keeping things simple and frictionless to use is a big priority
09:06	rubber-duck	is something like (<! (xhr-async)) or some variant prefered over standard (<! (xhr)) :\
09:06	justin_smith	jph-: I have coworker that are hired for their creative / visual skills and ability to translate that to html, and they need to be able to use caribou
09:07	justin_smith	*coworkers
09:07	jph-	justin_smith: if it stays like padrino (ie, a bit more helpful than sinatra, without bloat of rails) i'll be very happy
09:07	justin_smith	jph-: if you find issues or suggestions, feel free to get in touch
09:07	jph-	im very new to clojure so i was curious which frameworks had mindshare and active dev
09:07	jph-	so first up is caribou :)
09:07	jph-	the tutorial video really sells it
09:07	jph-	simplicity wise
09:08	jph-	reminds me of the rails "make a blog" tutorial 5+ years ago, only better
09:08	justin_smith	I don't know about mindshare, but we have a couple of us working at my company that use it nearly full time, and work on the project itself when not using it to do client stuff
09:08	justin_smith	thanks
09:09	justin_smith	we had a big todo list about things to streamline to make things that turnkey
09:09	justin_smith	it was worth it
09:09	jph-	if you havent heard of padrino, take a look, it's awesome and incredibly unfortunate so few know about it
09:09	jph-	i love padrino since it hits the sweet spot
09:10	jph-	caribou kinda looks like it's similar
09:12	justin_smith	yeah looks like we have some similar priorities (keeping compatibility and flexibility with other libs, providing a nearly complete stack of functionality out of the box, easy to create and insert template helpers)
09:12	jph-	yep
09:12	justin_smith	I think my next todo is non-sql storage
09:12	jph-	why it feels so familiar :)
09:12	justin_smith	for datomic, neo4j, etc.
09:12	jph-	yah
09:12	jph-	that's the other nice thing with padrino, lots of ORMs, lots of backends
09:13	jph-	basically sinatra with lots of cool stuff pinched from rails
09:13	jph-	and elsewhere
09:13	justin_smith	we support h2 / mysql / postgres
09:13	jph-	yep
09:13	jph-	how soon should i ditch h2?
09:13	jph-	heh
09:14	jph-	is it the equivalent of sqlite?
09:14	jph-	never used it before
09:14	justin_smith	it is a local in-process sql
09:14	justin_smith	with a single file on disk
09:14	jph-	only for dev then
09:14	justin_smith	yeah - it is there to make first bootup and experimentation seamless
09:14	jph-	what's the right approach for serving a caribou site? reverse proxy via nginx or straight to web
09:14	glosoli	hmm caribou does look interesting
09:14	justin_smith	so the first step of the tutorial isn't "install and configure mysql or postgres"
09:15	jph-	justin_smith: yeh that's perfect
09:15	jph-	the padrino equiv defaults to sqlite
09:15	stdev	(that said it holds up shockingly well for single/low user envs)
09:15	stdev	(h2, that is)
09:15	jph-	yep
09:15	justin_smith	jph-: we have been using war inside tomcat behind nginx and varnish
09:15	jph-	justin_smith: oh packaging up the webapp as a war?
09:15	justin_smith	but I think we can use http-kit and drop tomcat and nginx out of the stack
09:16	jph-	is there any doco on that on the caribou site?
09:16	justin_smith	it is a feature of ring
09:16	jph-	or jsut track down generic clojure/war/tomcat serving info should be ok?
09:16	justin_smith	lein ring uberwar
09:16	jph-	ahh
09:16	jph-	yes i've seen that mentioned
09:16	justin_smith	it should be mentioned on the caribou docs if it isn't
09:17	justin_smith	the thing is, I was looking at some benchmarks, and directly using ring+httpkit without the tomcat layer would boost performance
09:17	justin_smith	but that means replicating the other things tomcat does
09:17	jph-	ahh
09:17	justin_smith	logrotate, service interface
09:17	justin_smith	etc.
09:17	jph-	whatever is nice and simple
09:17	stdev	war protocol is p solid despite the computational overhead
09:18	stdev	i wanted to hate it
09:18	justin_smith	simple is a variable of scale - for a one of java -jar is simple, for a big project, service tomcat restart is invaluable
09:18	stdev	but couldn't
09:18	noncom	what is the clojure equivalent for javas MyClass.class
09:18	noncom	?
09:18	justin_smith	*one off
09:18	jph-	justin_smith: just keep it simple, that's what is attractive
09:18	jph-	dont take it to the dark side of java
09:19	justin_smith	noncom: maybe (. Class forName "MyClass") ?
09:19	justin_smith	,(Class/forName "java.lang.Integer")
09:19	clojurebot	java.lang.Integer
09:20	noncom	yes, looks like it is
09:21	justin_smith	noncom: wait
09:21	justin_smith	,(class [])
09:21	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentVector
09:21	justin_smith	I think that is what you want
09:21	noncom	that's getting a class of an instance
09:21	justin_smith	ahh, right
09:21	noncom	but the first one you said is more like MyClass.class
09:23	xificurC	javadoc opens a window with really small and unreadable documentation, is that normal?
09:23	xificurC	I dont even see how to zoom in or anything
09:23	pepijndevos	What was this nice idiom to append to a key in a map or create it if it doesn;t exist?
09:24	justin_smith	xificurC: what UI?
09:24	xificurC	justin_smith: hm?
09:24	xificurC	I am running nrepl inside emacs if thats what you asked
09:25	justin_smith	,(update-in {:a [0]} [:a] conj 1) ; pepijndevos
09:25	clojurebot	{:a [0 1]}
09:25	justin_smith	xificurC: does the javadoc open in an emacs buffer or a browser?
09:25	xificurC	justin_smith: it opens in a jframe i guess
09:25	xificurC	#<JFrame javax.swing.JFrame[frame1,32,32,700x900,invalid,layout=java.awt.BorderLayout,title=,resizable,normal,defaultCloseOperation=HIDE_ON_CLOSE,rootPane=javax.swing.JRootPane[,5,25,690x870,invalid,layout=javax.swing.JRootPane$RootLayout,alignmentX=0.0,alignmentY=0.0,border=,flags=16777673,maximumSize=,minimumSize=,preferredSize=],rootPaneCheckingEnabled=true]>
09:25	pepijndevos	&(update-in {:a [0]} [:b] conj 1)
09:25	lazybot	⇒ {:b (1), :a [0]}
09:25	pepijndevos	ah ok
09:26	justin_smith	,(conj nil 1) ; pepijndevos
09:26	clojurebot	(1)
09:26	justin_smith	that is what it is effectively doing
09:26	pepijndevos	got it
09:27	pepijndevos	I did Python for a while so now my head is fille with {}.setdefault and other crazynes
09:27	hyPiRion	eventually use fnil to set type of list
09:27	hyPiRion	,(update-in {:a [0]} [:b] (fnil conj []) 1)
09:27	clojurebot	{:b [1], :a [0]}
09:27	hyPiRion	,(update-in {:a [0]} [:a] (fnil conj []) 1)
09:27	clojurebot	{:a [0 1]}
09:27	xificurC	,(doc javadoc)
09:27	clojurebot	excusez-moi
09:27	justin_smith	,(update-in {:a [0]} [:b] (fnil conj []) 1)
09:27	clojurebot	{:b [1], :a [0]}
09:28	justin_smith	xificurC: I bet there is some env variable that would tell the jframe to use a better font
09:30	xificurC	justin_smith: any tips where to search for it?
09:30	justin_smith	hmm
09:31	justin_smith	for me, javadoc opens a window in chrome
09:31	pepijndevos	<3 fnil
09:31	xificurC	justin_smith: I'd appreciate FF too
09:32	justin_smith	xificurC: I think mine is using my default browser
09:33	justin_smith	it looks like it is calling browse-url
09:33	cYmen	hmpf
09:33	cYmen	sometimes I think all those fancy modern IDEs have left me unable to remember the most common and simple argument orders
09:34	justin_smith	xificurC: (when open-url-script (sh/sh open-url-script (str url)) true)
09:34	justin_smith	xificurC: I bet you that is a dynamic binding that you can shadow
09:34	justin_smith	the fallback is open-url-in-swing, which is clearly what is being called in your case
09:37	xificurC	justin_smith: so how would you get it to open in firefox or even inside emacs?
09:37	justin_smith	xificurC: first, we have to find out where open-url-script is resolved
09:37	justin_smith	then, bind it in a binding form
09:37	justin_smith	pointing at the shell script to call
09:40	xificurC	I did (use 'clojure.java.browse) and then (binding [open-url-script "firefox"] (javadoc SimpleDateFormat)) which opened it in firefox
09:40	xificurC	how can I make that the default binding on start?
09:41	justin_smith	hmm
09:41	justin_smith	it is using xdg-open-loc
09:41	justin_smith	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/java/browse.clj#L21
09:43	justin_smith	oh!
09:44	justin_smith	open-url-script should be an atom
09:44	justin_smith	so you can use reset
09:45	justin_smith	that is, reset!
09:45	justin_smith	xificurC: what OS are you on?
09:46	xificurC	Slackware 14.0
09:46	justin_smith	I wonder if the xdg stuff does not work with your desktop
09:46	xificurC	so you meant something like (reset! open-url-script "firefox") ?
09:46	justin_smith	yeah, it looks like it should be an atom, so that should work
09:46	justin_smith	I had not realized before it would be an atom
09:46	xificurC	getting a NullPointerException
09:47	justin_smith	yeah me too
09:49	xificurC	`which xdg-open' returns /usr/bin/xdg-open
09:49	justin_smith	weird
09:49	justin_smith	yeah, there is some magic going on with that dynamic atom that I don't get
09:49	xificurC	heh
09:52	xificurC	(clojure.lang.Reflector/invokeStaticMethod "java.awt.Desktop"
09:52	xificurC	"isDesktopSupported" (to-array nil)) from open-url-in-browser returns false
09:53	justin_smith	xificurC: returns true here
09:53	justin_smith	that is our difference
09:54	justin_smith	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8258153/how-to-get-desktop-class-supported-under-linux
09:54	justin_smith	seems you need gnome installed
09:54	justin_smith	even if you don't have gnome running?
09:54	xificurC	justin_smith: yes but why can't i just rebind open-url-script
09:54	justin_smith	I have no clue
09:55	justin_smith	there is something weird going on there
09:55	justin_smith	it is a special var, not bound in my thread
09:55	justin_smith	which is not too abnormal for something declared :dynamic
09:58	justin_smith	likely your options are to fork javadoc so you can get something simpler and controllable, or get java to recognize xdg on your system (likely involving gnome installation)
10:00	xificurC	justin_smith: I did this: (defmacro jdoc [sym] `(binding [open-url-script "firefox"] (javadoc ~sym)))
10:00	justin_smith	cool
10:01	xificurC	justin_smith: but I'll lose that the moment I close emacs or nrepl, where could I put it so it auto-loads?
10:03	justin_smith	you could put it in a project and lein install that project, and make it a deps in your profiles.clj under the :user key
10:03	justin_smith	or make it an :injections task to evaluate that macro def
10:03	justin_smith	the former probably makes more sense
10:04	xificurC	sounds like ten things I have never done yet, so let's try it!
10:04	justin_smith	that's the spirit!
10:17	xificurC	justin_smith: I created a new project and put the macro in its core.clj but when I eval it and try to run it in nrepl it doesnt seem to treat it as a macro
10:17	xificurC	it tries to evaluate the argument and fails
10:17	justin_smith	well that's weird
10:19	xificurC	justin_smith: https://www.refheap.com/21369
10:20	justin_smith	trying switching to that ns
10:21	justin_smith	http://sprunge.us/YdFQ
10:21	justin_smith	it kinda worked here, but it got me the URL in crome instead of firefox
10:32	xificurC	justin_smith: it works for me with java.lang.Integer but doesn't work if I simply put SimpleDateFormat, which worked before
10:32	justin_smith	are you providing the full class name?
10:32	xificurC	probably because I had it in the ns I was calling it
10:33	xificurC	yeah, java.text.SimpleDateFormat works as expected
10:33	justin_smith	so the next step is lein install
10:33	justin_smith	then add it as a dep under :user in ~/.lein/profiles.clj
10:34	xificurC	what does lein install do exactly? creates a jar?
10:35	justin_smith	creates a jar
10:35	justin_smith	puts it in ~/.m2
10:35	justin_smith	makes it available to other projects
10:35	justin_smith	then the user dep gets merged with your normal deps
10:35	justin_smith	and then you can use jdoc in any of your projects (locally)
10:35	justin_smith	but it won't ship with uberjars
10:36	sveri	anyone using lighttable here? i am looking for an overview over the basic shortcuts
10:36	xificurC	justin_smith: i dont have profiles.clj under ~/.lein/
10:37	justin_smith	you could :)
10:38	justin_smith	{:user {:dependencies [[your-grou/jdoc "version"]]}}
10:38	justin_smith	that can be the entire file if you don't have one yet
10:38	justin_smith	it gets merged with project.clj
10:39	justin_smith	though it may make more sense to add it to :dev or :repl
10:39	justin_smith	rather than :user
10:39	xificurC	i never used those yet and didnt know they exist
10:40	xificurC	what do you mean by `your-grou'?
10:40	justin_smith	whatever your group is in your project.clj for jdoc
10:40	justin_smith	I missed the p
10:40	xificurC	still, what would you mean by that :)
10:40	justin_smith	so (defproject your-group/jdoc ...) in your project.clj
10:40	justin_smith	for jdoc
10:41	justin_smith	if it is just (defproject jdoc ...) then you can just specify jdoc in the profiles file
10:41	justin_smith	maybe your-org would be more idiomatic than your-group
10:42	justin_smith	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj#L11
10:42	justin_smith	in the example project it is org.example/
10:42	xificurC	hm, got an error when starting nrepl
10:43	justin_smith	what is the error?
10:43	xificurC	now it loaded
10:43	xificurC	couldnt find the file
10:43	xificurC	I had "0.1.0" as version and changed it to "0.1.0-SNAPSHOT"
10:44	justin_smith	yeah, you have to require the version you lein installed
10:44	justin_smith	:)
10:44	xificurC	so now I should be able to go (jdoc java.lang.Integer) ?
10:44	justin_smith	you still need to require the ns
10:45	justin_smith	(require '[jdoc.core :refer [jdoc]]) or somesuch
10:45	justin_smith	and that part you could make an injection
10:45	justin_smith	if you really want it to run for every repl
10:45	justin_smith	the example project.clj also shows how to do injections
10:47	xificurC	justin_smith: and I have to write that every time manually in my project.clj?
10:47	justin_smith	no, that can go in profiles.clj
10:48	justin_smith	just as you can add dependencies there, you can add injections
10:50	xificurC	justin_smith: and that finishes your whirlwind tour through creating and installing a project successfully. Thanks!
10:50	justin_smith	{:user {:dependencies [[your-grou/jdoc "version"]] :injections [(require '[jdoc.core :refer [jdoc]])]}}
10:50	justin_smith	np
10:51	justin_smith	glad we sorted this out!
10:51	xificurC	its still strange, but yeah
10:51	xificurC	atoms
10:51	justin_smith	:dynamic
10:51	justin_smith	even more weird
10:51	justin_smith	atoms are not that bad, but ^:dynamic can do weird things
10:51	xificurC	I only wished to check 2 java classes and look where I got :)
10:52	justin_smith	we are all the wiser for it
10:53	xificurC	yes, I hope I wont forget everything in a day!
10:53	xificurC	(because I don't remember anymore which 2 classes I wanted to check :D )
10:53	justin_smith	I need to learn most things 7 or 8 times before they stick
10:54	xificurC	well at least I'll have a working mini-project on my machine that I can check for the basics
10:54	xificurC	(and javadoc "working")
11:06	pepijndevos	Can I pass clojure datastrucutres as command-line arguments?
11:08	guns	pepijndevos: Yes, just supply EDN strings as your argv or stdin, then read with clojure.edn/read-string
11:08	justin_smith	-main gets the args with lein run
11:08	pepijndevos	right
11:25	xeqi	brainproxy: no flag to include sourceContent for compiled js that I know of. The ability to do so for repl interactions was just added yesterday
12:16	pepijndevos	Is htere any non-ugly way to iterate over 2 seqs at the same time using for?
12:17	llasram	pepijndevos: You mean like (for [[a b] (map vector as bs)] ...) ?
12:18	pepijndevos	I guess that's the best you can get. Other alternative is to do a loop over a range and use get.
12:20	S11001001	pepijndevos: which only works well if you have good seq indexing on both
12:20	pepijndevos	Python has eaten my brain. So maybe there is a better way to do all of this, but I think this is okay.
12:21	justin_smith	pepijndevos: there is also just using map, which takes multiple sequences and moves through them in parallel
12:21	pepijndevos	justin_smith, I know, but this code would look really bad in a map
12:22	pepijndevos	I think 7 LOC is acceptable for several levels of doseq.
12:26	xificurC	justin_smith: what if I want to adjust my installed project?
12:26	justin_smith	xificurC: you could edit it and run lein install again
12:27	justin_smith	of course if you share with others you would also change the version, but locally that should be less of a concern
12:27	xificurC	ok thanks
12:27	clojurebot	excusez-moi
12:38	xificurC	justin_smith: javadoc, unlike doc throws me in stacktrace when providing an unknown class. How can I force it to just return nil?
12:39	justin_smith	hmm
12:39	justin_smith	you could use a try catch?
12:39	justin_smith	the thing is, it is something you would only normally call from the top level, so the exception isn't breaking other code
12:39	xificurC	I have but it doesnt seem to work
12:39	justin_smith	just very verbosely saying it can't find the calss
12:39	justin_smith	*class
12:39	justin_smith	hmm
12:39	justin_smith	feel free to paste what you have
12:40	xificurC	try doing (try (javadoc fda) (catch Exception e nil))
12:40	justin_smith	is the thing thrown a subclass of Exception?
12:40	xificurC	I thought everything is
12:40	xificurC	CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: dfa in this context, compiling:(/tmp/form-init8412589436928102776.clj:1:6)
12:41	justin_smith	so try catching RuntimeException
12:41	xificurC	still a no
12:41	justin_smith	oh
12:41	xificurC	isnt there a way to catch all exceptions?
12:42	justin_smith	the exception is happening at the read stage
12:42	justin_smith	that happens before the try block happens
12:42	justin_smith	xificurC: yeah, Throwable, though catching Throwable can make bad things happen
12:42	justin_smith	but the issue here is that the exception happens before the try form is entered
12:42	xificurC	ok but good to know, thanks
12:43	xificurC	so you cannot override it?
12:43	justin_smith	(try (javadoc (Class/forName "fda")) (catch Throwable e nil))
12:43	justin_smith	if you use Class/forName it does not resolve the class at read time
12:44	justin_smith	but don't use Throwable, oops!
12:44	xificurC	heh
12:44	srruby	Is clojure getting much traction in the real world of jobs ?
12:44	justin_smith	(try (javadoc (Class/forName "fda")) (catch ClassNotFoundException e nil))
12:44	justin_smith	best to be as specific as you can
12:44	justin_smith	srruby: I do clojure at work
12:44	llasram	ditto
12:45	xificurC	justin_smith: that works, thanks!
12:45	xificurC	lucky you guys
12:45	xificurC	lucky you
12:45	srruby	Thanks.
12:45	xificurC	try workin with Excel's wonderful VBA for a year
12:46	justin_smith	I'd rather not, thanks
12:46	xificurC	that language gives no guarantees the code you write will run the way you wrote it
12:47	xificurC	or the same way on another machine
12:49	xificurC	it still throws me a runtime exception after saving and doing lein install
12:49	justin_smith	and you restarted the repl that is using it?
12:49	xificurC	yes
12:50	justin_smith	that is weird
12:52	xificurC	(macroexpand-1 '(jdoc fa)) shows
12:52	xificurC	(clojure.core/binding [clojure.java.browse/open-url-script "firefox"] (try (clojure.java.javadoc/javadoc (java.lang.Class/forName (clojure.core/str fa))) (catch java.lang.ClassNotFoundException jdoc.core/e nil)))
12:52	justin_smith	it tries to resolve fa before making a string out of it
12:53	xificurC	ugh
12:53	justin_smith	try putting a quote in there, so the class name is treated as a literal symbol
12:53	justin_smith	and not resolved
12:53	justin_smith	(class 'java.lang.Integer)
12:53	justin_smith	,(class 'java.lang.Integer)
12:53	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Symbol
12:54	justin_smith	,(class 'java.lang.ThisDoesNotExist)
12:54	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Symbol
12:54	xificurC	hah
12:54	xificurC	that doesnt seem right
12:56	xificurC	now I get
12:56	xificurC	CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't bind qualified name:jdoc.core/e, compiling:(/tmp/form-init8836743777557140171.clj:1:1)
12:57	xificurC	works now
12:59	xificurC	like this https://www.refheap.com/21373
12:59	justin_smith	nice
13:01	justin_smith	also, fyi catch has an implicit do, so technically the nil is redundant
13:01	justin_smith	but looks like we are all set, until you want to change where it looks up the doc :)
13:02	justin_smith	after that a "make stackoverflow best answers write my code" macro
13:03	justin_smith	http://gkoberger.github.io/stacksort/
13:05	xificurC	heh
13:06	cYmen	I don't quite get where to put dots and where to put slashes when I want to use a function from a package...
13:06	cYmen	Is clojure.contrib.math/round right?
13:06	justin_smith	cYmen the package name is composed of directory names separated by dots
13:07	justin_smith	the slash goes between the name of the file it is in, and that function
13:07	justin_smith	it is easier if you do (require '[clojure.contrib.math :as cmath]) and call cmath/round
13:07	cYmen	hm...okay
13:07	justin_smith	or similar
13:07	justin_smith	(in the repl)
13:07	justin_smith	in a file you would use the :require subform in the ns declaration
13:09	cYmen	need a lein project to get those deps
13:09	cYmen	no idea how to do it manually
13:09	justin_smith	or you can use pomegranate
13:09	justin_smith	lein project is easier
13:09	justin_smith	https://github.com/cemerick/pomegranate
13:10	cYmen	Anyway, if I need to get it with lein I won't be able to use it on 4clojure anyway.
13:10	justin_smith	you can put it in your user profile in profiles.clj
13:10	justin_smith	ahh, you want to use the library in 4clojure
13:10	justin_smith	likely they won't even let you load any libraries
13:10	justin_smith	beyond things like clojure.string and such
13:11	justin_smith	don't use pomegranate in 4clojure problems
13:11	justin_smith	lol
13:14	bender_	so i tried to write a permutations function, but it blows up the heap after around 9 items. any idea what i can do to prevent that? http://pastebin.com/y9bx9JTh
13:14	bender_	this is just a learning exercise, i know there's already a lib for it :)
13:22	justin_smith	bender_: I think what you need is to use lazy-seq around each of your calls to cons
13:22	justin_smith	not just on the outside sequence
13:22	justin_smith	which is being called on a mapcat, which is already lazy
13:25	justin_smith	actually: (first (perms (range 70)))
13:25	justin_smith	that works just fine
13:25	justin_smith	the heap blowup is likely because you are holding onto a head you don't need somewhere
13:29	chouser	bender_: well, the normal approach is to use an accumulator so that you can move the recursion to the tail position, and then use 'recur'
13:29	chouser	This is not necessarily easy to do.
13:30	justin_smith	well he said it blew up the heap
13:30	justin_smith	maybe he meant stack
13:30	bender_	nah, it was an OOM
13:30	chouser	oh, really. well then my advice is no good.
13:30	justin_smith	yeah, that sounds like holding onto the head to me
13:31	bender_	holding onto the head in the function or in the actual call to it?
13:31	justin_smith	could be either
13:32	justin_smith	I can run (first (perms (range 70))) with no issues
13:32	justin_smith	I do get a stack overflow with (first (perms (range 700))) though :)
13:33	bender_	interesting do you start your repl with a bigger heap?
13:34	bender_	i just did a lein repl, pasted that function in and got:
13:34	bender_	user=> (first (perms (range 70)))
13:34	bender_	OutOfMemoryError Java heap space
13:36	chouser	(last (perms (range 10))) works for me. Eventually.
13:37	coventry	,(. (Runtime/getRuntime) totalMemory)
13:37	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.SecurityException: Reference To Runtime is not allowed, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
13:38	coventry	bender: What does that tell you in the repl?
13:38	coventry	Mine says ~0.5G. (first (perms (range 70))) works for me.
13:41	coventry	Actually, I guess you want maxMemory, not totalMemory.
13:47	bender_	thanks, i bumped up my heap size and it does complete. but i think that's just a bandaid, sounds like there is something that's not getting GC'd properly, but since its such a simple function there are only so many places it could be :/
13:52	sm0ke	guys, i was asking this before couldnt still figure it out
13:52	sm0ke	,```y
13:52	clojurebot	(clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list (quote quote)) (clojure.core/list (quote sandbox/y))))
13:52	sm0ke	,'''y
13:52	clojurebot	(quote (quote y))
13:52	sm0ke	what is it with syntax-quote evalutaion?
13:53	rplaca	sm0ke: the syntax quote version namespaces symbols by default
13:53	rplaca	to support more hygenic macro creation
13:53	justin_smith	it namespaces things to avoid all the stupid bugs macros would cause in common lisp
13:53	sm0ke	rplaca: yes but its seem much more than simple namespace resolution
13:54	rplaca	sm0ke: how so?
13:54	sm0ke	shouldnt it be look like just ##''`y
13:54	lazybot	⇒ (quote (quote clojure.core/y))
13:54	justin_smith	it is turning (quote whatever) into its expansion
13:54	Rhymor	,'(:a)
13:54	clojurebot	(:a)
13:54	Rhymor	,`(:a)
13:54	clojurebot	(:a)
13:54	Rhymor	,``(:a)
13:54	clojurebot	(clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list :a)))
13:55	rplaca	sm0ke: the rules are here: http://clojure.org/reader
13:56	Rhymor	I think I never quite understood the syntax quote.
13:56	sm0ke	yea its beyond me too
13:56	sm0ke	although i am just a newbie
13:58	rplaca	sm0ke: it's expanding to be what's necessary to create the structure (quote y)
13:58	rplaca	but I agree that that's more than I expected it to do there
13:59	Rhymor	Without the namespaces it turns ```y into (seq (concat (list 'quote) (list 'y)))
13:59	rplaca	but remember that the idea is that that whole structure will be evaluated at compile time and, therefore, simplified
14:00	Rhymor	Which of course would return (quote y)
14:01	sm0ke	Rhymor: is the (seq) form necessary?
14:01	sm0ke	and does 'quote 'y really need to be in a list, to be concated
14:02	sm0ke	may be its the way internal algorithm handles it
14:02	rplaca	sm0ke: think about it this way: every "extra" layer of ` requires an extra "eval" to undo it
14:02	sm0ke	cant really argure without much knowledge of how it works
14:03	rplaca	,`y
14:03	clojurebot	sandbox/y
14:03	rplaca	`(eval `y)
14:03	rplaca	,`(eval `y)
14:03	clojurebot	(clojure.core/eval (quote sandbox/y))
14:03	rplaca	,(eval `y)
14:03	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
14:04	rplaca	yeah, that sandbox won't let me do that
14:04	rplaca	but
14:04	rplaca	try (eval ``y)
14:04	rplaca	(eval (eval ```y))
14:04	rplaca	etc.
14:04	rplaca	and you'll seee
14:04	sm0ke	whats the point? i dont see it
14:04	rplaca	in practice you don't nest `
14:05	rplaca	unless there's a ~ escape in between
14:05	brainproxy	xeqi: thanks for the clarif
14:05	rplaca	the only reason you might is if you were writing a macro to write macros
14:05	Rhymor	sm0ke: the backquote allows for ~ and ~@ while quote doesn't. So quote can simply return whatever is quoted while the backquote needs to create the quoted list so it could insert unquoted content
14:05	rplaca	which is not a common case
14:06	rplaca	sm0ke: +1 for Rhymor
14:06	sm0ke	Rhymor: makes sense i guess
14:07	rplaca	consider:
14:08	rplaca	,(let [a 12] `[y ~a])
14:08	clojurebot	[sandbox/y 12]
14:08	brainproxy	anyone working on a runner/wrapper that would provide integration for karma and clojurescript.test?
14:08	sm0ke	yes,but the same argument should hold for ##``y
14:08	lazybot	⇒ (quote clojure.core/y)
14:08	sm0ke	i expected some list there
14:09	zerokarmaleft	can imports be reversed with ns-unmap?
14:09	rplaca	sm0ke: there are some nice uses for ` for various kinds of templating but it probably makes the most sense at first just to think about them wrt to writing macros
14:09	sm0ke	btw did you guys noticed that y resolved to clojure.core?! weird
14:10	rplaca	sm0ke: that resolves to user/y in my repl
14:10	Rhymor	it resloves to the current namespace.
14:10	sm0ke	yes but look at the lazybot response
14:10	Rhymor	So clojure.core is just an artefact of clojurebot which runs in the clojure.core namespace for whatever reason
14:10	rplaca	laybot efaults to running in clojure.core? interesting
14:11	sm0ke	,`y
14:11	clojurebot	sandbox/y
14:11	rplaca	*defaults
14:11	Rhymor	Ok, now I'm puzzled
14:11	Rhymor	I'll just shut up and let the grown ups talk :)
14:11	sm0ke	clojurebot is playing mindgames here
14:11	rplaca	right, you're using two different bots there
14:11	sm0ke	,``y
14:11	clojurebot	(quote sandbox/y)
14:11	sm0ke	aha!
14:12	Rhymor	:D
14:12	rplaca	sm0ke: why are you fixated on the nested ` case?
14:13	rplaca	you're basically going double meta there and things get weird :)
14:13	Rhymor	wanting to understand something is reason enough
14:13	rplaca	yes it is, but there's a lot to understand about the actual use cases for that model that I think would make it clearer
14:14	rplaca	as in: what's the context in which that makes sense?
14:14	rplaca	and that context is macro writing macros or similar double meta things
14:15	sm0ke	well to be honest i was just playing around, no conrete usecase
14:15	Rhymor	Yea, but I for one was able to use the syntax quote in macros without actually understanding how it works. I think I know now more than I did 10 minutes ago.
14:15	rplaca	hah! :)
14:16	rplaca	my advice: file this conversation until you have reason to try something double meta, then reexamine the behavior in that context
14:16	slatevero	Noob question: What's the idiomatic way of creating a list with N items each resulting from a function call?
14:16	rplaca	it is good to understand and you may be able to do something crazy powerful with it when you get the chance
14:17	rplaca	slatevero: calling the same function over and over with the same (or no) arguments?
14:17	slatevero	same function, same args
14:18	rplaca	slatevero: http://clojure.github.io/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/repeatedly
14:18	slatevero	any then something like (take N (repeatedly f)) ?
14:18	justin_smith	,(repeatedly 4 #(println "hello"))
14:18	clojurebot	(hello\nhello\nnil hello\nnil hello\nnil nil)
14:18	rplaca	(repeatedly n #(f a1 a2 a3))
14:19	rplaca	will do it
14:19	slatevero	ahh, ok cool
14:19	justin_smith	slatevero: repeatedly takes a count argument
14:19	Rhymor	slatevero: why does the function return different things when called?
14:19	slatevero	thank you
14:19	rplaca	Rhymor: common reasons are reading I/O and generating random values
14:19	slatevero	it returns the same thing, like for creating a pool of connections
14:19	justin_smith	,(repeatedly 3 rand)
14:19	clojurebot	(0.06532742636001476 0.8633735928031471 0.5121772655897804)
14:19	Rhymor	Ok, that makes sense
14:20	sm0ke	does rand should be renamed to rand!
14:20	sm0ke	haha
14:20	justin_smith	! is for things that are unsafe in a dosync
14:20	binski	is this kind of SQL possible with sqlkorma? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2334712/update-from-select-using-sql-server
14:20	llasram	That's not strictly true
14:20	sm0ke	oh i thought any function with side effect/ unpure
14:21	llasram	It's mostly just conventionally for operations which have side-effects
14:21	justin_smith	then we would have print! slurp! spit! ...
14:21	llasram	rand isn't a pure function, but it doesn't have (strictly observable) side effects
14:21	coventry	I've heard the dosync story, too, but if it's true, I think the convention ought to change. Because, who uses dosync that much?
14:21	Rhymor	I guess it is to mark functions where it is not immediately obvious that they have side effects
14:22	llasram	justin_smith: It's not a strict thing. When the point of a function is the side-effect, doesn't seem as useful to indicate it :-)
14:22	sm0ke	well ! is just a convetion, so it wouldnt be idiomatic to have something like i-mutate-myself! kind of name, the name itself tell enough
14:23	sm0ke	hmm i was the one who started this i guess :P
14:24	sm0ke	all people seem to have same point of view, win win!!
14:25	gfredericks	!! for functions that are totally surprising. (defn identity!! [x] (System/exit 42))
14:25	llasram	heh
14:26	llasram	I think I'd make that one `identity!!!11one!`
14:26	Rhymor	!? for functions which have a side effect and return a boolean for success or failure
14:27	sm0ke	we should have tight ffi integration with C, and convention of having every function suffixed with !!!
14:27	justin_smith	,(->> 'clojure.core ns-publics (map first) (map str) (filter #(re-matches #".*!" %)))
14:27	clojurebot	("set-agent-send-executor!" "pop!" "assoc!" "conj!" "alter-meta!" ...)
14:27	justin_smith	these are only things unsafe in a dosync
14:28	coventry	I like to name my vars after Daily WTF URLs.
14:28	gfredericks	,'http://gfredericks.com
14:28	clojurebot	http://gfredericks.com
14:28	gfredericks	o_O
14:28	llasram	Nice symbol you've got there
14:28	gfredericks	I honestly hadn't expected that
14:28	justin_smith	oh wait - persistent! is in there
14:29	gfredericks	,(let [http://gfredericks.com 42] http://gfredericks.com)
14:29	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't let qualified name: http://gfredericks.com, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
14:29	llasram	,(namespace 'http://gfredericks.com)
14:29	clojurebot	"http:/"
14:29	sm0ke	haha reminds me of the C trick, where http://gfredericks.com is valid code
14:29	coventry	Can you really not build up a transient in a dosync?
14:29	justin_smith	no, that's were I realized it wasn't true
14:30	llasram	Oh, entirely w/in the dosync. That makes senes
14:30	justin_smith	,(dosync (let [a (transient [])] a))
14:30	gfredericks	,(dosync (into [] (range 5)))
14:30	clojurebot	#<TransientVector clojure.lang.PersistentVector$TransientVector@50646c>
14:30	clojurebot	[0 1 2 3 4]
14:31	justin_smith	so it seems core uses it for transients, metadata, and dosync-unsafeness
14:31	llasram	metadata?
14:31	justin_smith	alter-meta!
14:32	llasram	Oh, but that actually mutates the metadata for something
14:32	llasram	vary-meta is unexcited :-)
14:33	justin_smith	,((juxt identity meta) (alter-meta! #'alter-meta! assoc :wow "really?"))
14:33	clojurebot	[{:arglists ([iref f & args]), :ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name alter-meta!, :column 1, :added "1.0", ...} nil]
14:33	justin_smith	truncated, but it does work
14:33	justin_smith	oh, returns the meta and not the var
14:34	justin_smith	(get (meta #'alter-meta) :wow)
14:34	justin_smith	,(get (meta #'alter-meta) :wow)
14:34	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve var: alter-meta in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
14:34	justin_smith	err
14:34	justin_smith	,(get (meta #'alter-meta!) :wow)
14:34	clojurebot	"really?"
14:35	llasram	Oh my
14:35	justin_smith	very similar to the common lisp practice of proplists on symbols
14:35	llasram	The "oh my" was that clojurebot allows it
14:36	coventry	Hmm, that looks like a potential hole in the sandbox.
14:36	justin_smith	yeah, you could do some sneaky stuff that way
14:36	llasram	,(alter-meta! #'alter-meta! assoc :doc "A very safe function.")
14:36	clojurebot	{:arglists ([iref f & args]), :ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name alter-meta!, :column 1, :added "1.0", ...}
14:36	llasram	,(doc alter-meta!)
14:36	clojurebot	"([iref f & args]); A very safe function."
14:36	justin_smith	ROFL
14:37	sm0ke	cats are out of the bag!
14:38	coventry	(alter-meta! #'deliver assoc :macro true)
14:38	justin_smith	,(alter-meta! #'juxt update-in [:doc] #(str % "\n\nAND IS TOTALLY AWESOME!"))
14:38	clojurebot	{:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name juxt, :arglists ([f] [f g] [f g h] [f g h & fs]), :column 1, :added "1.1", ...}
14:38	coventry	,(alter-meta! #'deliver assoc :macro true)
14:38	clojurebot	{:arglists ([promise val]), :ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name deliver, :column 1, :added "1.1", ...}
14:38	coventry	,(deliver 1)
14:38	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$deliver>
14:38	justin_smith	(doc juxt)
14:38	clojurebot	"([f] [f g] [f g h] [f g h & fs]); Takes a set of functions and returns a fn that is the juxtaposition of those fns. The returned fn takes a variable number of args, and returns a vector containing the result of applying each fn to the args (left-to-right). ((juxt a b c) x) => [(a x) (b x) (c x)] AND IS TOTALLY AWESOME!"
14:39	llasram	coventry: My mind when the same place...
14:39	llasram	s,when,went, even
14:40	justin_smith	,@(deliver (promise) 1)
14:40	coventry	(alter-meta! #'deliver dissoc :macro)
14:40	clojurebot	1
14:40	coventry	I wonder how often it resets.
14:41	coventry	,(do (alter-meta! #'deliver assoc :macro true) @(deliver (promise) 1))
14:41	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core$deliver>
14:48	xificurC	writing after losing connection and wondering why noone is answering, hehe
14:48	xificurC	I found that you can get the methods of a Java class via (:members
14:48	xificurC	(clojure.reflect/reflect foo)). Is this still actual and precise?
14:48	xificurC	and why is January 0 in a Java Calendar?
14:54	justin_smith	there is also bean - sometimes useful
14:54	justin_smith	(bean java.lang.String)
14:54	justin_smith	,(bean java.lang.String)
14:54	clojurebot	#<ExceptionInInitializerError java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError>
14:54	justin_smith	,(bean "hello")
14:54	clojurebot	#<NoClassDefFoundError java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: Could not initialize class sun.awt.AppContext>
14:55	justin_smith	,1
14:55	clojurebot	1
15:00	xificurC	justin_smith: thanks
15:04	sm0ke	,(bean (java.util.Date.))
15:04	clojurebot	#<NoClassDefFoundError java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: Could not initialize class sun.awt.AppContext>
15:06	sm0ke	,(java.util.Date.)
15:06	clojurebot	#inst "2013-11-30T20:09:53.828-00:00"
15:06	sm0ke	,(doc bean)
15:06	clojurebot	"([x]); Takes a Java object and returns a read-only implementation of the map abstraction based upon its JavaBean properties."
15:06	sm0ke	wth
15:07	llasram	Seems to be a sandbox thing
15:08	`cbp	##(bean (java.util.Date.))
15:08	lazybot	⇒ {:seconds 5, :date 30, :class java.util.Date, :minutes 21, :hours 12, :year 113, :timezoneOffset 480, :month 10, :day 6, :time 1385842865021}
15:12	rplaca	if you're messing around with dates and times, I highly recomend you look at clj-time which is a wrapper for joda time. It makes everything more sane.
15:18	llasram	The irony of someone using the handle `rplaca` talking about API sanity is pretty awesome :-D
15:18	justin_smith	lol
15:36	glosoli	hmm is there some way to check in REPL if custom stack size was applied ? (I set it in project.clj, but want to make sure)
15:38	sm0ke	glosoli: i think gettting stack size is not very sriaghtforward, you can try using jconsole to connect to your repl to get an idea of usage however
15:40	glosoli	sm0ke thanks
15:48	sm0ke	https://github.com/clojure/java.jmx can also be used at repl i guess
15:48	sm0ke	nice, that makes jmx pretty easy!
15:48	xificurC	rplaca: thanks, I was using the Java Calendar only because of a book example
15:49	xificurC	but I will remember clj-time
15:49	justin_smith	there is also jvisualvm for tracking resource usage
15:56	seangrove	Wait, is it not possible to do ajax PUT requests?
15:57	seangrove	yogthos\|away: Trying to make a :put request with cljs-ajax, but getting an error that such a method doesn't exist
16:13	grncdr	does anybody else wish if-let allowed multiple bindings?
16:14	justin_smith	so, what, the first binding would be magic?
16:15	hiredman	the compiler needs magic to automatically chain let with things
16:15	hiredman	let-try
16:15	hiredman	try-let
16:15	hiredman	etc
16:16	grncdr	justin_smith: the bindings would be implicitly "and"ed
16:16	justin_smith	oh, so you want and-let
16:16	grncdr	oh, is and-let a thing?
16:16	grncdr	,(doc and-let)
16:16	clojurebot	Huh?
16:16	justin_smith	no
16:17	seangrove	grncdr: It's been suggested before, but then you don't know where the failure is
16:17	justin_smith	just saying, if you are doing and on all the bindings, that isn't if, that's and
16:17	seangrove	Probably an easy enough macro to write if you feel strongly about it, grncdr
16:18	grncdr	yeah, I haven't had a case where I've felt that strongly about it yet
16:18	grncdr	but it's been at least 2-3 times I've expected it to work and it hasn't
16:18	grncdr	at least the error is good :)
16:18	seangrove	grncdr: Yeah, I agree. I understand the tradeoff though, so I'm not too upset about it
16:19	grncdr	hm, I don't know if I do...
16:19	seangrove	Generally just a (let [multiple bindings] (if (and all the bindings) ...))
16:20	grncdr	the tradeoff is that you don't know which binding is falsy… but doesn't that also happen when you do it manually?
16:20	grncdr	e.g. (and x y z), you don't know if x or y or z was nil/false
16:21	grncdr	anyways, this is straight-up yak-shaving so I understand if it's not that interesting to anybody else ;)
16:21	seangrove	grncdr: But an if-and-let is a pretty coarse level of control
16:22	seangrove	It's rare that you want to do multiple bindings and fail if any of them fail... usually you have multiple bindings and different branches based on various combinations
16:22	seangrove	Maybe a cond-let would be cool
16:22	seangrove	,(doc cond-let)
16:22	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
16:22	grncdr	hah
16:22	hiredman	are you familiar with maybe?
16:22	grncdr	no
16:23	seangrove	hiredman: Scala's Option?
16:23	llasram	I pull in algo.monads all the time just for the maybe monad
16:23	grncdr	ah, yeah, in my case I'm not really looking for a maybe monad
16:23	hiredman	ugh, I would like to the tests for algo.monads for examples, but the formatting is horrible and if you don't already know what maybe does they are not clear at all
16:23	llasram	grncdr: I actually think you are looking for Clojure's version of it
16:24	hiredman	link
16:24	llasram	It's basically an if-let with any number of bindings, which returns `nil` when the first one returns `nil`, and in which you can intersperse other (non-tested) lets and arbitrary boolean tests
16:24	grncdr	hm, well, I could see it being implemented using a maybe monad...
16:26	seangrove	llasram: Definitely would like to see a good example of it
16:26	seangrove	Sounds like I'm missing out on a useful pattern
16:28	grncdr	I thought I understood the maybe monad, and I can see the similarity between what I'm asking and what it could do, but I feel like I was after something simpler
16:28	llasram	Here's an example from the code I'm working on right now: https://gist.github.com/llasram/7724741
16:28	llasram	The details are certain to be incomprehensible
16:29	llasram	But hopefully the structure is clear
16:30	grncdr	so I'm seeing the conditions (:when …) but not how to bind the result of a test
16:31	llasram	Oh, you can do arbitrary bindings with :let [...]
16:31	llasram	Those results aren't checked for the nil-ness
16:31	llasram	All the top-level bindings are though
16:31	grncdr	yeah, I was (slowly) realizing that after I asked
16:31	grncdr	"right, it's the maybe-monad"
16:32	grncdr	ok, that's actually pretty nuts
16:33	llasram	It keeps "bail with nil if something goes wrong at any point" type functions nice and flat
16:33	grncdr	(inc llasram)
16:33	lazybot	⇒ 13
16:33	grncdr	yeah
16:34	grncdr	so… now the dumb question: what namespace is `am` ?
16:34	grncdr	contrib.monads?
16:34	llasram	Oh, https://github.com/clojure/algo.monads
16:34	grncdr	ah
16:34	grncdr	not a dumb question after all :)
16:34	llasram	It's the "new" name for contrib.monads, but yeah
16:35	rubber-duck	can I reference vars not bound in ns by using full names (with ns) in clojurescript ? ie. is this code : (ns foo) (defn x [] ..,) (ns bar) (foo/x) - valid ?
16:36	grncdr	should be
16:36	grncdr	you could try it on cljsfiddle if you're not sure
16:36	grncdr	but I'm pretty sure I do that in this code I'm working on...
16:36	rubber-duck	I'm just worried about optimization not working if there are no references in ns declaration
16:37	grncdr	hm, that is a good point...
17:19	also	is there a reason cljs.nodejs set!s string-print instead of set-print-fn! ?
17:21	also	simply requiring cljs.nodejs and calling enable-console-print! means you get no newlines
17:25	noncom\|2	what is the common way to dynamically load jars in a running clojure program?
17:26	noncom\|2	* new jars
17:26	justin_smith	pomegranate
17:26	also	https://github.com/cemerick/pomegranate
17:26	llasram	From the REPL? You can directly use pomegranate, or use alembic for a slightly more convenient interface
17:27	llasram	https://github.com/pallet/alembic
17:28	noncom\|2	cool! i'll check up both, thank you
17:28	xcthulhu	What is the correct term to use for someone who programs clojure?
17:28	xcthulhu	...is it a clojuror?
17:29	llasram	I'd just go with "Clojure programmer"
17:29	noncom\|2	i've heard about clojurians
17:29	noncom\|2	in several different places
17:29	noncom\|2	clawjuror
17:30	justin_smith	clojerk
17:30	noncom\|2	ahaha
17:30	noncom\|2	clojerker
17:30	`cbp	clojodyte
17:30	justin_smith	the meetup group here in town is clojerks pdx
17:31	xcthulhu	hehe
17:33	Raynes	Oh man, Python can eat me with its explicit returns.
17:33	llasram	It wouldn't be so bad if it didn't implicitly return None without one...
17:35	brainproxy	how do I include a "preamble" (e.g. licensing info) in the cljs compiler's output such that the generated source map still points to the correct line numbers
17:35	brainproxy	simplying prepending such text messes up the line numbers
17:36	grncdr	brainproxy: I don't know, but I don't think it would be possible currently
17:37	brainproxy	grncdr: i was gueesing it's not but figured I would ask :)
17:37	grncdr	you could probably write something that modifies the sourcemaps themselves after the fact without too much fuss, if you need a quick & dirty solution
17:37	brainproxy	never know what subtle option I missed when looking over the source
17:37	brainproxy	grncdr: i was experimenting with uglifyjs for that purpose
17:38	brainproxy	but I think I'll make a feature request in any case
17:38	grncdr	another q&d would be to just throw your license into a giant string literal at the top of the file :P
17:38	brainproxy	haha, nice
17:38	justin_smith	isn't the point of the sourcemap that it translates from a place in an uglified concatenated file to an original file and line? if so wouldn't prepending a chunk of text leave those references accurate?>
17:39	brainproxy	justin_smith: i tried it an indeed the line numbers got foobar'd
17:39	justin_smith	oh
17:39	arrdem	Raynes: I mean... if you find that an attractive prospect whatever. Personally I like explicit returns more than Scala's implicit return shit
17:39	grncdr	justin_smith: the sourcemap maps from positions in the compiled output, so if you add data to the start of that, things get messed up
17:40	justin_smith	ok, I didn't think it would work that way
17:45	also	brainproxy: i wonder if something like this would work: https://github.com/thlorenz/combine-source-map
17:49	dnolen	brainproxy: preamble enhancement patch welcome - it looks like your preamble comment just needs a @preserve annotation for it to work - http://developers.google.com/closure/compiler/docs/js-for-compiler
17:50	brainproxy	dnolen: if I knew how to write the patch I would do it, I'm not sure I can dive off into that atm, but maybe my feature request will inspire someone with the know how
17:52	brainproxy	or even an example of a patch that did something broadly similar w.r.t. enchancing the cljs compiler
17:52	dnolen	brainproxy: open a minor enhancement ticket in JIRA - I'm unlikely to tackle this myself anytime soon, too many other fish to fry - it would require a fairly simple modifications to closure.clj
17:52	brainproxy	dnolen: I'll take it on if there is an example I can learn from
17:52	Raynes	arrdem: Yeah, it's just that I keep forgetting to do it.
17:52	dnolen	brainproxy: if you look at how we do the :output-wrapper you'll see it's not a particularly difficult enahancement
17:52	Raynes	It's more my problem than Python's.
17:53	also	dnolen: how does the output wrapper work with sourcemaps?
17:54	dnolen	also: this is a case where's it informative to look at the source ;), see cljs.closure/build
17:55	brainproxy	dnolen: do I need to do the CLA stuff to be able to submit to JIRA
17:55	brainproxy	that's not a problem, just never crossed that bridge
17:55	dnolen	brainproxy: not to open a ticket, but to submit a patch yes
17:55	brainproxy	dnolen: hmm, what's the access point for submitting ticket
17:55	brainproxy	googling jira clojurescript took me to something which required a login
17:56	dnolen	brainproxy: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS
17:56	brainproxy	ok
17:56	dnolen	brainproxy: you might need to create an account but anyone can
17:56	brainproxy	ah
17:56	also	dnolen: yeah, i was looking at the source. it just wasn't clear to me how the newline added by add-wrapper was accounted for by the source map
17:57	dnolen	also: lines 1099-1105 in cljs/closure.clj
17:57	dnolen	also: the source map is generated after we constructed the final concatenated source
17:57	brainproxy	dnolen: are there any plans to support sourceContent in the cljs compiler's source map output, or would the .map files be so huge that it would be silly?
17:57	dnolen	also: oh actually it's not!
17:57	also	:)
17:57	dnolen	also: so that's a bug
17:59	dnolen	also: or actually I'm not sure ... simple and advanced are likely to remove the wrapping function?
17:59	also	dnolen: no, it sticks around
18:00	dnolen	also: so Closure never removes a top level function that's immediately invoked?
18:01	dnolen	also: yeah it'll get removed in advanced
18:01	also	dnolen: well, stripping the function can change the value of this
18:01	dnolen	also: I'm now less convinced this an issue
18:02	dnolen	also: if you're using source maps and :simple or :none there's little reason for the wrapper
18:02	dnolen	also: and for production code people generally won't expose the source map
18:02	also	dnolen: yeah, i'm not super concerned about it. but it's the same as brainproxy's issue
18:03	bellkev	Say, I was just reading through the clojure.test source, and I was wondering if anybody knows why they went with the :test metadata scheme to run through all the tests in a namespace. Was there a reason not to just use a :test true flag in the metadata instead of put the whole test body in the metadata?
18:03	darklord5	question(sorry to interrupt): I am trying to map a function: (-> :content clojure.string/capitalize) to a list of maps structure like so: ({:tag :tt, :content ("305")})...but the problem is clojure attempts to evaluate ("305") before being passed to capitalize. So I tried to pass ("305") to quote via: (-> :content quote clojure.string/capitalize) but this isn't working either. What am i doing wrong here?
18:05	amalloy	darklord5: you've mis-identified the problem. and you can't really "call" quote on something at runtime, because all the compilation and quoting is already done
18:06	amalloy	i mean, it seems to me like the issue is that (-> :content capitalize) isn't a function at all (in fact evaluating it will throw an exception), so everything after that assumption is broken
18:07	amalloy	conceivably you might have meant #(-> % :content capitalize), which is IMO a less-clear way to write (comp capitalize :content)
18:08	also	dnolen: i still see the wrapper with :advanced
18:08	dnolen	also: yes because we add it afterwards to avoid problems
18:09	dnolen	also: so you're right it would through of course maps, but I'm not convinced anyone should use :output-wrapper true w/ source maps enabled
18:09	dnolen	s/through of/throw off
18:10	seangrove	"through of course maps"
18:10	seangrove	go home dnolen, you're drunk.
18:11	dnolen	seangrove: haha
18:11	seangrove	dnolen: Thinking about coming out west for clojure/west?
18:12	dnolen	seangrove: likely if I submit a talk and it gets accepted :)
18:15	seangrove	dnolen: Well, get on it then ;)
18:16	dnolen	seangrove: haha
18:16	brainproxy	dnolen: to clarify, at present combining the output wrapper and source maps will result in a problem?
18:17	dnolen	brainproxy: a problem insofar as they are incompatible options
18:17	dnolen	brainproxy: and likely will always be
18:17	brainproxy	yikes okay
18:18	dnolen	brainproxy: which is not true for preamble feature
18:18	brainproxy	i understand, but I was going to combine the two
18:18	dnolen	brainproxy: they are orthogonal
18:19	brainproxy	don't necessarily have to, but wanted my test build output to essentially look exactly like the release output
18:19	brainproxy	and there are projects that are distributing source maps with release code
18:19	brainproxy	so that devs don't have to have a non-minified build onhand
18:20	dnolen	brainproxy: and the source map links to a non-minified version on a CDN or something?
18:21	brainproxy	well two that come to mind are jquery and polymer
18:21	brainproxy	and no, they point to a .map file that's included in, say, the bower distribution
18:21	seangrove	rkneufeld: Are there any docs on pedestal 3.0's approach to UI? I'm working on some stuff similar and would like to see how you're approaching it
18:21	brainproxy	others do it as well, those two just jumped to my mind right away
18:22	brainproxy	dnolen: however, I do see your point, and I can live w/o it for sure
18:22	brainproxy	the :preamble being a still desired and different issue, as you noted
18:30	seangrove	Hrm, can't get ajax requests to show up in the network tab of chrome devtools.
18:31	also	dnolen: lein-cljsbuild 1.0 now adds :output-wrapper with :advanced
18:32	amalloy	seangrove: as long as the network tab is open before the ajax request starts, i've never had that happen. i speculate you're failing to send the ajax request
18:33	also	dnolen: so some source-map examples upgraded from lein-cljsbuild 0.3.2 will probably run into the issue
18:33	seangrove	amalloy: It's hitting the server, and showing up in the js console, just not the network tab
18:33	amalloy	check for ghosts
18:33	amalloy	only an exorcist can help you now
18:33	seangrove	amalloy: Phew, I was wondering if there was a term "ghosts" I wasn't familiar with...
18:33	Deadron	lol
18:34	amalloy	yeah, i realized that would sound confusing, so i added that second one
18:34	dnolen	also: yeah, I don't really agree w/ that default, not a CLJS issue in any case
18:36	grncdr	dnolen: random question but, who's responsible for mix having :solo and :mute be the names used by mix/toggle ?
18:36	grncdr	because that is awesome
18:53	munderwo	Hi all, new to clojure. Trying to make a simple web app. and I'm getting an exception while trying to use selmer? https://www.refheap.com/21377 I'm sure I'm doing something stupid here, but I'm not sure what.
18:54	coventry	munderwo: render-file is not in the ns. You might want selmer.parser/render-file, if that's where render-file lives.
18:55	mattmoss	Is there a function f such that (f #'x) gives me 'x ?
18:55	mattmoss	Seems like I'm just missing something obvious.
18:55	`cbp	munderwo: either use selmer.parser/render-file
18:55	`cbp	or change your ns declaration to refer that symbol
18:56	munderwo	like (:use [selmer.parser :only [render-file]]) ??
18:56	lazybot	munderwo: Definitely not.
18:56	coventry	good boy, lazybot. :-)
18:56	also	haha
18:56	munderwo	ahhh… whats lazybot and what did it tell me not to do?
18:56	`cbp	munderwo: change use for require and only for refer and we're in business
18:57	coventry	(doc var-get) <-- mattmoss
18:57	clojurebot	"([x]); Gets the value in the var object"
18:57	mattmoss	coventry: I don't want the value, I want the name.
18:58	munderwo	`cbp: so In the code examples I've been using there is a :use for compojure.core and ring.adapter.jetty… should I not be doing that either? should it all be require?
18:58	`cbp	munderwo: they are outdated, use require
18:58	justin_smith	mattmoss: quote, but it only works at compile time
18:59	justin_smith	because looking at names only works at compile time
18:59	munderwo	righto. cheers! and refer instead of only?
18:59	`cbp	munderwo: yes
18:59	mattmoss	,(quote #'x)
18:59	clojurebot	(var x)
18:59	coventry	,(-> #'inc meta :name)
18:59	clojurebot	inc
19:00	coventry	That's not totally reliable, though. Depends on how the var is created.
19:00	akurilin	uhm actually don't answer that just yet, connection is going nuts for a sec.
19:00	mattmoss	Basically, doing some macros, returning value from a def (which is a var), want the name.
19:00	`cbp	there is no question!
19:00	justin_smith	,(alter-meta! #'inc assoc :name 'dec)
19:00	clojurebot	{:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name dec, :file "clojure/core.clj", :column 1, :line 874, ...}
19:00	justin_smith	,(:name (:meta inc))
19:00	clojurebot	nil
19:00	coventry	mattmoss: You get the name (a symbol) in a macro for free.
19:00	justin_smith	,(:name (meta #'inc))
19:00	clojurebot	dec
19:00	mattmoss	,(:name (meta inc))
19:00	clojurebot	nil
19:01	also	,(.sym #'inc)
19:01	clojurebot	inc
19:01	coventry	mattmoss: Worst case, you can grovel in the form which produces the def to get the name, if you're in a macro.
19:01	mattmoss	coventry: Perhaps... I'm still figuring that out, since it's clojure macros being used from cljs. Which means you may be correct, but my brain is rather warped at this point to fully realize that.
19:01	also	probably not that
19:02	rkneufeld	seangrove: No docs on Pedestal 0.3.0's UI approach exist yet.
19:03	seangrove	rkneufeld: Would you be up to talk about it sometime? Would definitely like to hear about it from a high level view
19:04	seangrove	,(= {:a 10} {:a 10 :b nil})
19:04	clojurebot	false
19:04	rkneufeld	seangrove: I actually haven't even had a chance to catch up on the dataflow engine changes yet–been heads down on the book for months :S. I'm expecting to dig in a little mid-December and over the holidays.
19:07	seangrove	llasram: This look like the place to use the maybe monad? https://www.refheap.com/21378
19:07	mlb-	Where might I find information on impementing a new host target for Clojure? This is from purely academic, self-educational curiosity.
19:08	seangrove	rkneufeld: Sure, no problem
19:08	rkneufeld	seangrove: what are you working on?
19:09	seangrove	rkneufeld: Working on a ui layer for clojurescript, trying to bring together declarative web-components-like markup, core.async internal widget behaviors, and pedestals' funcational-as-long-as-possible approach
19:10	rkneufeld	Neat! I know Tim and Brenton have been mulling over some stuff in this vain the last few months, but there isn't much concrete on the ground yet.
19:10	seangrove	I've found myself independently recreating a lot of pedestal's ideas, so I'd like to have a high-bandwidth talk with someone who knows what they're doing (not me) and see if this is worth the time
19:11	munderwo	hmm.. is there a reason that a tutorial is telling me I can do lein ring server , but it seems like I only have lein run ?
19:11	rkneufeld	Tim or Brenton would probably be the best people to talk to then.
19:11	munderwo	I seem to have something called lein-ring installed?
19:11	seangrove	rkneufeld: tbaldridge? I don't know Brenton...
19:12	rkneufeld	seangrove: Tim Ewald–though he has a vanishingly small online presence.
19:12	munderwo	oh wait… maybe Im stupid :)
19:12	rkneufeld	seangrove: If you want to ping the whole gang, drop an email to pedestal@cognitect.com
19:13	hiredman	mlb-: clojure isn't like a lot of schemes or lisps, it isn't a self contianed system to be ported, it places a lot of emphasis on host integration
19:13	seangrove	rkneufeld: Well, don't want to take up too much of their time. I'll keep going at it independently until I have something with more substance
19:13	rkneufeld	seangrove: It's a slow season right now, so don't expect us to beat you to the finish ;)
19:14	akurilin	I accidentally stumbled upon the last question shalloway ever answered on SO back 2+ years ago, heh.
19:14	seangrove	rkneufeld: No problem, maybe with a bit of luck that'll be my ticket to give a talk at clojure/west ;)
19:14	hiredman	mlb-: there have been a few ports of clojurescript to different targets, but (and opinions differ on this) I don't think clojurescript is clojure, in my experience it is a cut down set of functionality
19:15	hiredman	I don't know if any of the clojurescript ports (like the lua one?) are active
19:15	mlb-	hiredman: I'd figured any development on a new target should start as a subset. I'm curious at which parts of the subset are necessary to implement first, etc.
19:17	hiredman	most of the big differences between clojurescript and clojure stem from clojurescript having very distinct compilation and runtime phases
19:17	hiredman	where clojure doesn't
19:18	hiredman	so for example macros in clojurescript are written in clojure, because the clojurescript language isn't really available at compile time, and compilation happens upfront before runtime
19:19	hiredman	similarly clojure has a very nice reified linking construct (vars) which clojurescript doesn't have, it has the same sort of implicit linking the target has
19:21	mlb-	these certainly tell me a lot about differences between Clojure and ClojureScript, but not where one might begin to implement a new Clojure target
19:21	hiredman	mlb-: that information doesn't really exist
19:22	also	mlb-: check out some of cemerick's ports of clojure libraries to clojurescript libraries
19:22	hiredman	the only other clojure target is the clr port
19:22	tbaldridge	mlb-: If you want to talk sometime about this, feel free to contact me. I wrote clojure-py and learned a lot doing it. Mostly I learned how it was way harder than I thought.
19:22	mlb-	ah, alas. I was hoping given clojurescript, clojurec, clojureclr, clojurepy, etc. there might be more information
19:22	hiredman	and that wasn't done via a manual of how to port clojure
19:22	tbaldridge	mlb-: there's about 20 different ways to do "a port". Each is done a bit differently.
19:23	mlb-	tbaldridge: haha. You admitted what I was most afraid of, but had an intuitve assumption was the case.
19:25	hiredman	the other thing is there isn't a clojure standard, so while I have spent a lot of time reading and writing clojure and have strong opinions about what clojure is, other people have other opinions
19:26	grncdr	hm, does anybody know a good pattern for creating a "bus" in core.async without feedback issues?
19:26	hiredman	you mean an unbounded queue?
19:27	grncdr	not exactly… longer explanation forthcoming...
19:28	grncdr	I want a mult channel that carries application state, and various go-loop blocks that tap that channel so they each have a view of the latest application state… that much is straightforward
19:29	grncdr	what gets tricky, is I want some of those go-loops to have other inputs, and put a new version of the application state back on "bus" channel based on those inputs
19:30	hiredman	use an atom
19:30	grncdr	it seems to me that by doing that, the new state is going to show up as a new input
19:30	tbaldridge	grncdr: just store the app state in an atom.
19:30	grncdr	crap
19:30	grncdr	I was doing that before ;)
19:30	chouser	is it safe to interact with atoms from inside go blocks in ClojureScript?
19:32	chouser	I guess I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't be, but without some channel involved somewhere, no go block will ever give up control to another.
19:33	hiredman	chouser: (go ((fn foo [] … (go (foo)))))
19:43	coventry	Can slamhound be configured to refuse to pick when there are multiple options?
19:45	amalloy	hiredman: does that really work, though? (go ((fn ...))) doesn't allow you to use <! and so on from inside the ..., because the core.async transformer doesn't reach inside lambdas, right?
19:49	hiredman	amalloy: depends I guess, the idea is just to get a control loop that yields to other go blocks without using channels
19:51	hiredman	you could move … in to the (go …) and get the go transform of …, and then you would get rid of the outer (go …)
20:02	rovar	hey all.. I'm trying to understand what #' does.
20:02	rovar	I saw http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10945187/is-pound-quote-in-clojure-running-the-resolve-and-symbol-functions
20:02	rovar	but the thing is that (foo 10) will return the same result as (#'foo 10)
20:02	justin_smith	,#'+
20:02	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/+
20:02	rovar	,+
20:02	clojurebot	#<core$_PLUS_ clojure.core$_PLUS_@78f49c>
20:03	justin_smith	,(map type [#'+ +])
20:03	clojurebot	(clojure.lang.Var clojure.core$_PLUS_)
20:03	justin_smith	one is the var, the other is the value of the var
20:04	rovar	so if I'm trying to pass a handler.. for instance in http-kit. I see some examples pass #'myhandler and others define the handler with fn
20:04	rovar	so one is passing a var, and one is passing a fn
20:04	justin_smith	the difference is when you pass the var in, it sees the new value if you rebind the var
20:04	rovar	so i should be able to pass myhandler directly without supplying the var, yes?
20:04	rovar	ah
20:04	justin_smith	because defining a new function does not replace the old one - both exist
20:04	rovar	but when executing a var is implicit?
20:04	justin_smith	but the var will point at the new one
20:05	justin_smith	the implicit thing is that symbols, unless quoted, get treated as vars
20:05	rovar	so its dereferencing the var automagically
20:05	justin_smith	yeah
20:05	rovar	meh
20:05	rovar	I mean.. I'm sure it makes things simpler
20:05	justin_smith	and you pass in the var if you want it to see new values of the var when you change it
20:05	rovar	sure..
20:06	justin_smith	you just use the symbol if you want it to resolve once and continue using that value
20:06	rovar	so in the example: https://github.com/http-kit/chat-websocket/blob/master/src/main.clj#L44
20:07	rovar	they pass in the var, in case someone decides to redefine msg-received at some point
20:07	justin_smith	right
20:07	justin_smith	it is useful during development
20:07	rovar	seems kind of janky. I'd rather pass the the function directly so noone can go and change it,
20:07	rovar	how would you make use of it during dev?
20:08	rovar	redefine it in the repl after you've launched the server?
20:08	justin_smith	yeah
20:08	justin_smith	I usually start a repl from within the server actually
20:08	justin_smith	so I can redefine things as I work without restarting
20:08	rovar	yea..
20:09	rovar	I've done a fair amount of scala and haskell and chicken scheme. Having a hard time with the fuzzy typing
20:10	rovar	being able to change methods as I'm running seems useful, though..
20:11	rovar	unrelated question: is there a timeout for doseq?
20:11	justin_smith	nope, if you hand it an infinite list it will go until you interrupt it or it runs out of heap
20:12	rovar	so I'd need a way to interrupt the generator, in such cases..
20:12	justin_smith	right
20:13	justin_smith	you could have a reduce, with a condition that calls reduced
20:13	justin_smith	reduce is eager
20:13	rovar	ok.. last question.. what is the postfix * operator?
20:13	justin_smith	there are no operators
20:13	rovar	oh.. nm
20:14	justin_smith	* in a name indicates something is internal
20:14	justin_smith	usually
20:14	justin_smith	if it is the end of the name
20:14	rovar	yea.. it's like prime
20:14	justin_smith	right
20:14	rovar	they're just making the next version of the hash and then reassigning it
20:14	justin_smith	so let expands to let*
20:14	justin_smith	fn expands to fn*
20:14	justin_smith	I just use prime
20:15	justin_smith	,(reduce (fn [x x'] (if (= x' x) (reduced :OK))) [0 1 2 3 3 4])
20:15	clojurebot	nil
20:15	justin_smith	err
20:15	justin_smith	,(reduce (fn [x x'] (if (= x' x) (reduced :OK) x)) [0 1 2 3 3 4])
20:15	clojurebot	0
20:16	Bronsa	,(reduce (fn [x x'] (if (= x' x) (reduced :OK) x')) [0 1 2 3 3 4])
20:16	clojurebot	:OK
20:16	justin_smith	that's what I wanted :)
20:16	justin_smith	thanks
20:18	hyPiRion	or like
20:18	hyPiRion	,(some (fn [[x y]] (= x y)) (partition 2 1 [0 1 2 3 3 4]))
20:18	clojurebot	true
20:18	arrdem	(inc brehaut)
20:18	lazybot	⇒ 21
20:19	justin_smith	hyPiRion: the point was more the usage of prime', but yeah :)
20:19	hyPiRion	oh
20:19	pdk	,(doc reduced)
20:19	clojurebot	"([x]); Wraps x in a way such that a reduce will terminate with the value x"
20:20	justin_smith	it is basically a return statement for reduce
20:20	hyPiRion	I just tend to see clojure expressions and attempt to make different variations of them
20:20	justin_smith	fair enough
20:20	hyPiRion	That is not always what people want though :p
20:21	andyf	Bronsa: Continuing thanks for all of the tools.analyzer work. When you say "it is trivial to use a custom macroexpander that passes as &env a localsym->localbinding map", is there an example of that somewhere?
20:21	justin_smith	hyPiRion: yours is definitely the better example of finding a duplicate, if that was what I were demonstrating
20:23	Bronsa	andyf: basically just replacing env with (:locals env) here https://github.com/clojure/tools.analyzer.jvm/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/analyzer/jvm.clj#L128 should work for the core.async use case
20:23	amalloy	it occurs to me that (if (= x' x) (reduced :OK) x) can be rewritten as ({x' (reduced :OK)} x x). i don't think this is actually better, but it's a funny little thing
20:24	justin_smith	indeed it is
20:24	Bronsa	andyf: however if some library is using the value part of &env it's going to be trickier, you should transform the tools.analyzer map representation of a local to a Compiler$LocalBinding
20:24	andyf	Bronsa: I will give that a try. Is there any reason not to do such a thing when analyzing any Clojure code at all? I can make it an option for eastwood, if necessary, but better if the default works for most cases.
20:24	justin_smith	amalloy: wait, is that how reduced works?
20:25	amalloy	er, what, justin_smith? it's a generic conversion, which would work as well if we replaced (reduced :OK) with foo
20:25	hyPiRion	I find it more interesting that you can have the reduced outside of the reduction function
20:25	justin_smith	amalloy: I guess I thought calling it did the short circuit, but you have to return it?
20:25	Bronsa	andyf: the problem is that essentially there's no way &env is going to be 100% compatible, so I prefered to keep it different instead of making it maybe work and maybe not
20:26	amalloy	oh man, if calling it short circuited as a side effect, i think rich would spontaneously combust
20:26	justin_smith	yeah, I didn't understand, clearly
20:26	amalloy	reduced is just a one-arg deftype
20:26	justin_smith	cool
20:26	andyf	Bronsa: Is the goal that eventually tools.analyzer will be used as part of a Clojure compiler? If so, were you thinking of supporting &env in a different way than Clojure currently does, or not at all?
20:27	amalloy	(deftype Reduced [x]) is actually the whole body, i think? i guess there's probably a protocol like IReduced
20:27	amalloy	ah, it's written in java, and implements IDeref
20:27	amalloy	but it's like five lines long
20:28	justin_smith	cool
20:28	hyPiRion	heh, hm
20:29	akurilin	I'm still astounded by how much fun certain tasks can become with Clojure. I'm playing with instaparse, and between REPL-driven development, tests and functional programming the task becomes pure play.
20:29	justin_smith	akurilin: definitely
20:30	hyPiRion	,(reduce #(deref %2) (map (comp reduced reduced) (range)))
20:30	clojurebot	1
20:30	justin_smith	in the future zinga will be the worlds leading software development company, when they train all their users to write clojure code that passes unit tests in order to see colorful explosions
20:30	Bronsa	andyf: doubtfully tools.analyzer will be part of the clojure compiler anytime soon, &env is (I think) an undefined feature and is currently implementation specific
20:31	akurilin	justin_smith, lol what is that a reference to?
20:31	Bronsa	s/undefined/undocumented
20:31	justin_smith	akurilin: quick iteration, short term reward, that's what makes games successful
20:31	justin_smith	zinga is a very successful casual game company
20:31	hyPiRion	Isn't like... Clojure itself implementation specific? I haven't seen any implementation/design paper
20:31	akurilin	justin_smith, oh, very good point.
20:32	justin_smith	also a joke :)
20:32	Bronsa	andyf: the thing is, if I wanted to macroexpand using a &env compatible with Compiler.java's one I'd have to change the AST representation to use Compiler.java classes -- and avoiding that is one of the goals of tools.analyzer
20:32	akurilin	justin_smith, one of my biggest lessons from working with instaparse was making veeeeery small incremental changes, the more trivial the better, otherwise you lose your sanity. Combine these hundreds of "tiny victories" over a long stretch of time, and you're addicted.
20:33	justin_smith	right
20:33	justin_smith	unit-test farmville!
20:33	hiredman	I've only ever used the keys of &env
20:33	andyf	Bronsa: OK. I am not familiar with the gory details there yet (and may never be), but I was hoping to use tools.analyzer on as large a variety of existing code bases as possible, and core.async definitely uses &env
20:33	amalloy	it's very hard to use the vals of &env correctly
20:33	akurilin	justin_smith, i bet you there's a team doing that already :)
20:35	Bronsa	andyf: well, I've made macroexpand-1 to be an extension point of tools.analyzer so as I've said, just rebinding ana/macroexpand-1 to a macroexpand-1 similar to jvm/macroexpand-1 but that applies the macro using (:locals env) instead of env should be enough for most use-cases (I've never seen anybody use the values of &env)
20:35	andyf	So far most of the contrib libraries analyze without errors, and I've tested another 2 dozen or so Clojure libraries that are not contrib libs today. Things are looking fairly good.
20:36	andyf	Bronsa: WIll try that out soon. Need to go run an errand now, but will let you know how my testing goes. Thanks again.
20:36	Bronsa	andyf: you've done an invaluable job at testing tools.analyzer on those libraries I, Thank you!
20:37	Bronsa	amalloy: TBH I never seen anybody use &env vals, I cannot even think of a use-case where that would be needed
20:38	rovar	,(reduce (fn [x x'] (if (= x' x) (reduced (str "duplicate:" x')) x')) [0 1 2 3 3 4])
20:38	clojurebot	"duplicate:3"
20:38	amalloy	oh wait, actually, i think i may have seen the vals used effectively once. let me check
20:39	Bronsa	maybe the only useful information they expose is whether the local is a fn arg or not?
20:39	amalloy	Bronsa: no, you can actually get at the types the compiler knows about
20:39	Bronsa	right
20:40	amalloy	https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/flatland/useful/datatypes.clj#L62 uses vals of &env to generate typehinted record-manipulation code
20:42	rovar	,(reduce (fn [x x'] (if (= x' x) (reduced (str "duplicate:" x')) x')) (repeatedly #(rand-int 20)))
20:42	clojurebot	"duplicate:4"
20:42	rovar	hurray #
20:42	rovar	:)
20:44	Bronsa	amalloy: clever
20:51	bbloom	alex asked me to add some perf tests to CLJ-1200, but i ran in to something kinda strange & was wondering if somebody could verify that i'm not crazy
20:51	bbloom	if you've got a clojure.jar lying around, run `java -jar clojure.jar` and then eval this expression:
20:52	bbloom	(dotimes [n 10] (time (dotimes [i 5000000] ((fn [& args]) 1 2 3 4))))
20:52	Bronsa	bbloom: http://sprunge.us/FFdO
20:52	bbloom	on my box, the first time i do that, it averages about 2msecs, but if i eval it again, it averages 55ms
20:52	bbloom	after that it averages 130ms each time
20:52	bbloom	i'm wondering why it slows down after evals
20:53	bbloom	changing the number of times doesn't seem to impact it
20:53	hiredman	https://gist.github.com/hiredman/7727659 not entirely unlike bronsa's in shape
20:54	bbloom	Bronsa: hiredman: ok now eval that expression again
20:54	hiredman	huh, interesting
20:54	coventry	bbloom: I see the behavior you describe.
20:54	Bronsa	bbloom: http://sprunge.us/WNjO
20:54	bbloom	https://gist.github.com/brandonbloom/7727665
20:54	hiredman	heh
20:54	hiredman	it is slower everytime
20:54	bbloom	weird, right?
20:54	Bronsa	ok bbloom me too now
20:55	bbloom	so strange....
20:55	amalloy	same here. that's really weird
20:55	bbloom	one of you geniuses figure that one out while i try to benchmark the original issue lol
20:58	slatevero	what are the conventions for style when making a long function call? i've read Batsov's style guide but it doesn't really address this.
20:58	slatevero	Ex: (create-channels (if channel-per-consumer consumer-count consumer-cxn-count) consumer-connections)
20:58	slatevero	would you break that kind of thing into multiple lines?
20:59	Bronsa	bbloom: I don't see that behaviour with -XX:+TieredCompilation
20:59	bbloom	Bronsa: do you see the faster or slower speed? :-P
20:59	Bronsa	they keep around 50ms
20:59	Bronsa	there's no slowdown after evaluations
21:00	bbloom	hm ok
21:00	bbloom	wtf does that flag do?
21:00	bbloom	is there a good guide on what to do when benchmarking?
21:00	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
21:00	amalloy	slatevero: i probably would, yes. one newline, after the if-expr
21:00	justin_smith	TieredCompilation sets the hotspot optimization level
21:01	slatevero	@amalloy tnx
21:01	amalloy	i guess i would put some inside the if-expr as well; i forgot that. but it's optional
21:01	justin_smith	bbloom: criterium makes it pretty easy, I just added as a dep in my dev profile
21:02	coventry	But you don't want to run criterium under leiningen because of the TieredCompilation issue, IIRC.
21:02	slatevero	is it typical to leave the first function argument on the same line as the function?
21:02	slatevero	..and put additional arguments on newlines if they're long?
21:03	justin_smith	slatevero: not everybody likes this, but it mostly reflects the norms https://github.com/bbatsov/clojure-style-guide
21:04	slatevero	@justin_smith - thanks. i read through it but it didn't really mention much about newlines for long function calls so i thought i'd ask
21:05	bbloom	is there a description of the tieredcompilation thing anywhere?
21:06	justin_smith	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/technotes/guides/vm/performance-enhancements-7.html
21:06	Bronsa	bbloom: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/technotes/guides/vm/performance-enhancements-7.html
21:06	Bronsa	duh.
21:06	justin_smith	lol, I think we got the same link
21:08	bbloom	anyone have a library that 1) makes heavy use of "&"-style variadic functions 2) has a benchmark suite?
21:08	bbloom	Bronsa: thanks
21:16	CaptainLex	Hey Clojure room, I have some architecture questions
21:18	scape	how am I supposed to keep an nrepl connection consistent? i tried holding on to the connection and client references, but when re-evaluating the namespace it seems to always default to user; I can't seem to figure out how to get it to keep the namespace it's in
21:19	justin_smith	scape: are you using defonce to bind the connection?
21:19	justin_smith	or maybe I should ask, how are you storing the connection
21:19	scape	no, but i am placing it in a ref and it's not getting over written there
21:20	scape	as in: (dosync (alter buffers conj {bid {:ch ch, :nrepl (nrepl/client (nrepl/connect :port 7888) 1000)}} ;;bid is buffer id
21:20	hiredman	scape: you need to have session middleware and keep the session key to send back and forth
21:20	hiredman	scape: you should not do io in a transaction
21:20	scape	oh, so it's not necessarily the client or connection information, but the session?
21:21	scape	i placed that for brevity, would a let suffice?
21:24	scape	hiredman: would it make more sense then to have a single nrepl connection and hang on to the session keys? i want to be able to evaluate separately, from different threads
21:25	CaptainLex	Does anyone here know about shaders for OpenGL programming? The basic idea is I want to write shaders in Clojure instead of GLSL. This means "compiling" Clojure to GLSL. What should I use for the compilation steps. Would "simple" macros suffice? Should I invoke the reader somehow?
21:26	CaptainLex	s/steps./steps?
21:27	scape	check out shadertone CaptainLex
21:27	CaptainLex	scape: Whoa thanks dude, I shall do this
21:31	CaptainLex	scape: Do you know how I can contact that Roger Allen guy?
21:31	scape	I do not, sorry :\
21:32	CaptainLex	scape: No problem, I'll figure it out. He's on Twitter!
21:32	CaptainLex	Thanks so much!
21:32	creese	What is the idiomatic way to open a database connection (and keep it open) using java.jdbc?
21:33	justin_smith	creese: best is probably to use a c3p0 pool
21:33	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
21:34	justin_smith	otherwise, if you are only going to be single threaded with your queries, you can reuse a connection by either passing it to each query, or have helpers that provide it to each jdbc function
21:34	justin_smith	then you can store it in an atom (if you really only need one connection / one pool) or have some other method for finding it
21:34	justin_smith	you could use a let surrounding an fn to capture it lexically
21:35	justin_smith	(let [connection (get-connection)] (defn query ...))
21:36	hiredman	:(
21:37	creese	justin_smith: does 'query' take a connection or config map?
21:38	hiredman	bad on many levels, a. hiding things b. global connection objects c. I am sure I could come up with more
21:39	justin_smith	hiredman: so would you go for the pass the connection to every function that uses the db route?
21:42	hiredman	justin_smith: depends
21:42	hiredman	but definitely don't do a closed over let
21:44	creese	I need the connection for the entire request-response cycle, and I don't want to close it when the request is done
21:44	hiredman	creese: use c3p0
21:47	hiredman	one way to approach this is to create db "workers" tasks that run on their own threads that take in queries and return responses from the database, so the db workers have to worry about re-connections, etc, but that has issues with handling errors and resource ownership
21:49	hiredman	c3p0 sort of does this behind a jdbc interface, but c3p0 can be painful to configure, although once we got everything tuned at work I don't think we've had further problems with it
21:55	creese	thanks, I'll take a look
22:17	doug_	Hi all. I'm just getting started, and trying to get the core.logic library working. I am getting "unresolved symbol" errors but I am not sure why.
22:19	justin_smith	doug_: that usually means you are naming things that are not defined, or trying to name something not visible yet from the current namespace
22:19	bbloom	doug_: are you trying to introduce new logic variables? maybe you want the "fresh" macro?
22:19	coventry	doug_: Can you post the code and the stacktrace you're getting to refheap.com
22:20	doug_	All I'm trying to do is "(defrel man x)" and getting an error
22:20	coventry	What's your ns form?
22:20	doug_	I used lein, and added the core.logic to my deps, and confirm it downloaded. Then lein repl, and type (use 'clojure.core.logic
22:21	doug_	other commands, like (run) work finee
22:21	hiredman	doug_: can you pastebin the exception you get?
22:22	hiredman	doug_: I believe defrel has been removed from the latest core.logic release
22:23	doug_	hiredman: thanks... wouldn't have even thought of that
22:26	bbloom	doug_: it's pretty easy to experiment for this sort of thing. more so with functions (which are applicative, and evaluate all their arguments), but also possible for macros too: you just try to eval the component parts
22:26	bbloom	,(let [x y] z)
22:26	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: y in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
22:26	bbloom	,y
22:26	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: y in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
22:26	bbloom	,let
22:26	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/let, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
22:27	bbloom	note "can't take the value of a macro"
22:27	bbloom	it found it! but it can't get it's value :-P
22:27	bbloom	functions are easier:
22:27	bbloom	,(+ x y)
22:27	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: x in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
22:27	bbloom	,+
22:27	clojurebot	#<core$_PLUS_ clojure.core$_PLUS_@c1e9ba>
22:27	bbloom	,x
22:27	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: x in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
22:27	bbloom	try experimenting that way for undefined symbols in the future!
22:28	doug_	OK, I posted it on the refheap with my errors https://www.refheap.com/21383
22:29	hiredman	yeah, there is some new thing that replaces defrel, I don't really know anything about it (not that I ever knew anything about defrel)
22:29	coventry	Hmm, defrel is still in the tutorial: https://github.com/swannodette/logic-tutorial#question--answer
22:29	doug_	coventry: my error from core.logic https://www.refheap.com/21383
22:31	coventry	defrel has been replaced by pldb, apparently. (Never heard of it.) https://github.com/clojure/core.logic/blob/master/CHANGES.md#changes
22:32	coventry	If you're going through that tutorial, I would downgrade to version 0.8.4.
22:32	doug_	coventry: thank you I will give that a try
22:37	doug_	coventry: THANK YOU! I should have asked about 2 hours ago.. it was driving me nuts :)
22:44	bbloom	another good trick: download the code and run `git grep defrel` and if that doesn't produce any results, run `git log -p` and then type `/defrel` to search for the most recent change that mentions it
22:45	bbloom	i use those two tricks all the time whenever a readme or blogpost seems out of date :-)
22:46	doug_	bbloom: nice idea
22:47	bbloom	`git log -p` is like a magic cheat code for being the fastest team member to find what change introduced a bug :-P
22:47	coventry	doug_: NP. You might want to post an issue about it. https://github.com/swannodette/logic-tutorial/issues
22:47	doug_	BTW, pldb function appears to be "persistent logic database" but I'm not sure of all the implications
22:47	doug_	coventry: yes, great idea
22:48	doug_	avoid others from being as confused as I am :)
22:58	doug_	thanks all for the help... issue submitted on the tutorial
23:22	beppu	,(let [bigfn identity] (eval '(bigfn 1)))
23:22	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
23:22	beppu	I get this: CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: bigfn in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:1:30)
23:23	beppu	Why doesn't bigfn resolve to the identify function that was assigned to it when used with eval?
23:23	coventry	I don't think eval gets the local bindings from the context in which it's called.
23:23	coventry	beppu: What are you trying to do?
23:24	beppu	coventry: http://www.4clojure.com/problem/58
23:26	justin_smith	you really don't need eval for that
23:26	coventry	Hint: Do you know the syntax for a variadic function signature?
23:27	beppu	[& args] ?
23:27	coventry	Hint 2: and do you know how to loop over a list?
23:27	beppu	I was trying to loop with reduce in this case.
23:28	beppu	I'll figure it out.
23:28	beppu	..
23:28	beppu	I was just curious about eval's behavior.
23:29	justin_smith	eval usually isn't what you need
23:46	madisjc	Does anyone know where clojure.java.io moved to?
23:47	justin_smith	what, it moved?
23:47	madisjc	everything I see looks out of date
23:47	Raynes	It hasn't moved anywhere.
23:47	hiredman	madisjc: clojure.java.io is where it as has always been
23:48	Raynes	madisjc: http://clojure.github.io/clojure/clojure.java.io-api.html
23:48	madisjc	ah great
23:48	madisjc	thanks for the link Raynes