#clojure – 2013-10-23

2013-10-23

00:08	cddr	In the guide for the clojurescript repl, it says "open the html page by going to http://localhost:9000". That seems like you need a server to serve an html page but later on in the docs, it implies that the repl code uses an iframe to work around the browser's cross-domain policy. Which is correct?
00:08	cddr	https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/wiki/The-REPL-and-Evaluation-Environments
00:16	xeqi	cddr: both
00:17	xeqi	browsers don't run javascript from local files
00:18	xeqi	so a http server is required, and it does some iframe stuff to talk to the repl server on another port
00:28	coventry	bhenry: I would try printlns on either side of the read-string. If they both succeed, the ring-is-swallowing-your-exception theory is wrong.
00:33	coventry	bhenry: Never mind, that doesn't apply to your new code.
01:01	Irkalla	So, I'm looking for an easy to use IDE with -modern- standards
01:01	Irkalla	Also hello, clojure :v
01:02	Irkalla	Fact of the matter is, I basically have to re-learn what an interface is to make effective use of emacs
01:02	Irkalla	I'm just not a fan
01:02	technomancy	too late; we've moved on to postmodern IDEs
01:02	technomancy	dripping with existential angst in every key binding
01:03	technomancy	Raynes: M-x explore-futility-of-all-creative-endeavour
01:04	Irkalla	But
01:04	Irkalla	technomancy
01:04	Irkalla	your postmodern IDEs are pretty meaningless
01:04	xuser	:h theRightWay
01:05	technomancy	Irkalla: Emacs invites the user to find their own meaning through bringing their unique experiences to the text
01:06	technomancy	it's presumptive to say that the author of any given program is the final authority on what that program means
01:06	technomancy	(hm; I didn't expect this metaphor to actually work)
01:07	Irkalla	Can we stop with postmodernism now? :V
01:07	AndChat\|367796	"There is nothing but the text" - technomancy on postmodernism c. 20131022T2130:44
01:08	Irkalla	The way they use their jargon instead of coming out and saying what they mean bothers me
01:08	technomancy	~rectification of names
01:08	clojurebot	No entiendo
01:08	technomancy	=(
01:09	technomancy	clojurebot: 正名
01:09	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
01:09	technomancy	aw come on
01:09	Irkalla	I've actually never really used IDE's
01:09	technomancy	clojurebot: do I have to spell everything out for you?
01:09	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
01:10	Irkalla	The first one I actually used was visual studio and it's the only I've ever used
01:10	Irkalla	I'm used to just using n++ and then running stuff.
01:10	Irkalla	Also I'm extremely new to clojure
01:11	Irkalla	So I have no idea how utilizing it works
01:11	technomancy	clojurebot: 正名 is <reply>If language is not correct, then what is said is not what is meant; if what is said is not what is meant, then what must be done remains undone; if this remains undone, morals and art will deteriorate; if justice goes astray, the people will stand about in helpless confusion. Hence there must be no arbitrariness in what is said. This matters above everything.
01:11	clojurebot	Ok.
01:11	technomancy	clojurebot: rectification of names is 正名
01:11	clojurebot	Roger.
01:11	Irkalla	clojurebot, inventory
01:11	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
01:11	Irkalla	wow give clojurebot an inventory
01:11	Irkalla	0/10 worst bot ever
01:12	technomancy	Irkalla: so what you want is something familiar
01:12	Irkalla	I think so
01:12	Irkalla	familiar keyboard shortcuts at least
01:12	Irkalla	afaik emacs predates a lot of the standards I'm familiar with
01:13	technomancy	so if you're already pretty handy with some existing editor you should stick with that
01:13	technomancy	and just send code to Clojure with `lein repl`
01:13	technomancy	if you're not, maybe counterclockwise would be up your alley
01:14	technomancy	hrm; I wonder if my factoid got truncated
01:14	technomancy	clojurebot: rectification of names?
01:14	clojurebot	rectification of names is 正名
01:15	technomancy	inference is hard
01:15	technomancy	clojurebot: what is 正名?
01:15	clojurebot	Pardon?
01:15	technomancy	uuuugh
01:15	technomancy	~正名?
01:15	clojurebot	If language is not correct, then what is said is not what is meant; if what is said is not what is meant, then what must be done remains undone; if this remains undone, morals and art will deteriorate; if justice goes astray, the people will stand about in helpless confusion. Hence there must be no arbitrariness in what is said. This matters above everything.
01:15	technomancy	there we go
01:15	technomancy	~botsnack
01:15	clojurebot	Thanks! Can I have chocolate next time
01:16	technomancy	but RELUCTANTLY
01:17	m00nlight	how can I get all keys in a hash-map in a simple way?
01:17	technomancy	clojurebot: inventory is <reply> I am carrying 0) a poorly-calibrated inference engine, currently leaking 1) a well-worn copy of clojure 1.2 tucked deep away inside a classloader 2) the last shreds of what was once my sanity
01:17	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
01:18	technomancy	clojurebot: inventory?
01:18	clojurebot	I am carrying 0) a poorly-calibrated inference engine, currently leaking 1) a well-worn copy of clojure 1.2 tucked deep away inside a classloader 2) the last shreds of what was once my sanity
01:19	jared314	,(keys {:a 1 :b 2})
01:19	clojurebot	(:a :b)
02:55	logic_prog	Is there a way with lein to run "lein repl :headless" and "lein cljsbuild auto" with one command uwing lein trampoline?
03:15	ta479	confuciusbot
03:27	ambrosebs	is js-obj used often in Clojurescript?
03:28	ddellacosta	ambrosebs: I use it a fair amount, especially when passing arguments to JS libs (especially Google Closure libs)
03:28	ddellacosta	ambrosebs: I think it's unavoidable if you are doing a lot of inter-op
03:29	logic_prog	is there a way to tell "lein cljsbuild auto" to also load up main.clj?
03:29	ambrosebs	ddellacosta: I'm still learning the object system in Javascript so you'll have to bear with me.
03:29	ambrosebs	ddellacosta: do you use it to build named objects like HTMLElement?
03:29	ddellacosta	ambrosebs: not at all! Anything I can help with just ask.
03:30	ddellacosta	ambrosebs: no, for that you'll usually call a function.
03:30	ddellacosta	ambrosebs: like, (HTMLElement .) (or whatever the args are, dunno)
03:31	ambrosebs	ddellacosta: ok.
03:31	ddellacosta	ambrosebs: it is probably more helpful to think of a JS obj, in some ways, as an associative array.
03:32	bitemyapp	ambrosebs: arrays in JS are objects (hash-maps) indexed by integers.
03:33	ambrosebs	ddellacosta: how does `type` work? what's the difference between something created with HTMLElement. and a js-obj that has the same shape?
03:33	ddellacosta	ambrosebs: CLJS's type uses JS's typeof, I'm pretty sure... https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Operators/typeof
03:34	ddellacosta	(let me confirm for you, unless someone else knows for sure)
03:35	bitemyapp	(defn type [x]
03:35	bitemyapp	(when-not (nil? x)
03:35	bitemyapp	(.-constructor x)))
03:35	bitemyapp	sorry for the spam.
03:35	bitemyapp	ambrosebs: ^^
03:35	ddellacosta	ambrosebs: huh, no, looks like it uses the .-constructor property
03:35	bitemyapp	the constructor is the JS object prototype.
03:35	ddellacosta	ah, right, what bitemyapp says
03:36	ambrosebs	makes sense
03:36	ddellacosta	what I'm curious about now is what the connection between typeof and constructor are...hmm
03:36	ambrosebs	typeof doesn't seem very useful compared to -constructor
03:37	bitemyapp	ambrosebs: an example here would be: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/Array/prototype
03:37	ddellacosta	I could swear, actually, at some point in the past I looked at the CLJS code and it was using typeof, but I could be misremembering
03:38	ddellacosta	but, now that I think of it, from time memorial when calling type in the CLJS console, I would get back a constructor function, so I must be wrong. Hmm.
03:39	ambrosebs	bitemyapp: ok thanks.
03:39	ambrosebs	so is js/Array the prototype of Array?
03:39	bitemyapp	ambrosebs: god I hope so.
03:39	bitemyapp	if not, that's going to break a lot of code for people :)
03:39	ddellacosta	ambrosebs: yes
03:39	ddellacosta	haha
03:40	ambrosebs	:)
03:40	bitemyapp	ambrosebs: new Array(); is ostensibly calling Array.prototype.constructor
03:41	bitemyapp	new Object() => Object.prototype.constructor, etc etc
03:41	bitemyapp	ambrosebs: the tricksy part here is that this stuff isn't static like Java classes, people can mutate the prototypes at runtime.
03:41	bitemyapp	so you can do Ruby style monkey patching and all kinds of stuff if you want to.
03:42	bitemyapp	not with precisely the same semantics though
03:42	ambrosebs	bitemyapp: right. Is that usually avoided?
03:43	bitemyapp	ambrosebs: by sane people, yes, but a prototype that gets mutated affects everything created from its constructor, even objects created before the prototype was changed because it's reference semantics.
03:43	ambrosebs	ok
03:44	ambrosebs	Is that something we need to worry about in CLJS?
03:44	bitemyapp	ambrosebs: since I assume we're talking about core.typed's clojurescript support, I would be comfortable saying that trying to accommodate the sort of people that do things like that in a static type system is probably not worthwhile.
03:44	bitemyapp	probably not, but I don't know how protocols and multimethods are implemented in CLJS atm.
03:44	bitemyapp	but if we continue this conversation, I might find out.
03:45	ambrosebs	I'm only really interested in modelling a "sane" usage of clojurescript
03:45	bitemyapp	ambrosebs: I think this is reasonable and a good idea.
03:45	ambrosebs	if you want to completely break everything, all bets are off anyway it seems
03:45	bitemyapp	ambrosebs: dude, you can mutate and replace the "undefined" object.
03:46	ambrosebs	god
03:46	bitemyapp	you can't actually use the undefined object safely for boolean checks, you have to generate it from void(0) to get a value that couldn't have been mutated.
03:46	ambrosebs	I can ignore that in Clojurescript though right?
03:46	bitemyapp	please do.
03:46	SegFaultAX	That's why you'll see a lot of modules of the form (function(a,b,c,undefined) {})(1,2,3)
03:47	bitemyapp	no reason to do that, just use void(0)
03:47	SegFaultAX	That way you have a stable value of undefined to work woith.
03:47	bitemyapp	or is void 0? either way. you get my meaning.
03:47	SegFaultAX	It's a common module pattern.
03:47	bitemyapp	the void constructor offends people that much?
03:48	bitemyapp	ambrosebs is now regretting having committed to core.typed cljs support, we should stop scaring him with horror stories :)
03:48	ddellacosta	haha
03:48	SegFaultAX	No? It's just easier that way.
03:48	bitemyapp	I was talking about core.typed at the Clojure Dojo today, exciting stuff.
03:48	bitemyapp	I actually find JavaScript's many depths of horribleness morbidly fascinating.
03:49	bitemyapp	I should've gone to med school and become a pathologist.
03:49	ddellacosta	I think the reality is that there are a lot of different patterns in JS, depending on whether you want to try some sort of "Classical OO," use the prototypal constructs JS has by default, try something more functional, or just..."willy-nilly style"
03:49	bitemyapp	SegFaultAX: btw, RethinkDB client for Clojure coming very very soon.
03:49	bitemyapp	query API is already like 80% done.
03:49	ddellacosta	I've seen all kinds of stuff in JS so not sure what is "standard"
03:49	bitemyapp	ambrosebs: the straight-forward way to handle
03:49	SegFaultAX	I'm careful not to use the word "standard" in js, since it isn't a thing.
03:50	SegFaultAX	Just common.
03:50	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
03:50	ddellacosta	SegFaultAX: yeah, fair enough
03:50	bitemyapp	"prototypes as type definitions" would be to rely on a classical pattern that is assumed static and if they write code that smashes it at runtime, then they're off reservation.
03:50	bitemyapp	it seems fairly straightforward that people could annotate the fact that they extended a prototype as well.
03:51	ambrosebs	bitemyapp: right. treating javascript objects like class instances seems easy enough.
03:51	bitemyapp	although that'll happen at runtime anyway.
03:52	SegFaultAX	ambrosebs: Frankly I wouldn't waste too much time on it. You absolutely cannot and will not be able to cover even the majority of cases here. People/libraries frequently patch and improve the standard library.
03:52	ddellacosta	agreed
03:52	bitemyapp	Array.prototype.maybeMonad = function(trololol...) {...}
03:52	bitemyapp	Hell is other people's JavaScript.
03:52	SegFaultAX	Furthermore js doesn't do any validation whatsoever around matching, for example, the number of arguments given vs number of parameters.
03:53	SegFaultAX	So for example (function() { ... })(1,2,3) is perfectly valid (and common)
03:53	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: haha
03:53	ambrosebs	I'm most interested in harvesting the DOM and Closure specs to give basic type checking for interop.
03:54	ambrosebs	I'm definitely not jumping down the rabbit hole of js semantics :)
03:54	ambrosebs	I just don't know them very well yet
03:54	SegFaultAX	ambrosebs: I would say only focus on the cljs side for now. You'll go insane if you try to extend that over js itself.
03:54	bitemyapp	ambrosebs: it would have to be a union of all the different DOM implementations though right?
03:54	ddellacosta	ambrosebs: DOM is a problem, as different browsers have different implementations, not sure how you would handle that
03:54	bitemyapp	right, what ddellacosta said.
03:55	ddellacosta	yeah. :-(
03:55	ambrosebs	the cljs side easily leverages most of the current core.typed infrastructure
03:55	bitemyapp	for example "click" for addEventListener on Chrome is "onclick" and attachEvent in Internet Explorer.
03:55	ddellacosta	jQuery codebase is a good place to look to see what kind of hoops must be jumped through to get DOM consistency. Same with google closure, for that matter
03:55	ambrosebs	interop is the different bit for CLJS
03:55	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: yeah, the Event stuff in particular is hairy
03:56	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: I don't think the type system has to care that much though, right?
03:56	bitemyapp	the type system just needs Number, String, Array, Object, null, undefined, function (arity)
03:56	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: yeah, I think you're absolutely right
03:56	ambrosebs	So the DOM spec doesn't help with cross-browser things?
03:56	bitemyapp	and it just needs to know when an object matches a particular "spec"
03:57	ddellacosta	ambrosebs: the problem is each vendor implements what they feel like
03:57	bitemyapp	ambrosebs: lowest common denominator that not everybody implements.
03:57	ddellacosta	ambrosebs: short answer, sadly, no. :-(
03:57	bitemyapp	IE took awhile to implement addEventListener. Now they have like three different APIs for the same thing with different names for the same events.
03:57	bitemyapp	tl;dr this is why I prefer backend.
03:58	bitemyapp	I'll take my ivory tower of Clojure and Datomic over being in the trenches with JavaScript.
03:58	bitemyapp	with trench foot. and bad coffee. and cursing british soldiers.
03:58	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: sadly, I can't avoid it...but CLJS definitely makes things nicer to deal with. Doesn't hide the horrors, but lets you ignore them until you can't avoid them any more.
03:58	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: don't forget, IE doesn't implement event capture!
03:58	SegFaultAX	The ecmascript spec is more of what you might call a guideline.
03:58	bitemyapp	so if you need capture...you're simply fucked!
03:58	bitemyapp	SegFaultAX: said like a real pirate.
03:58	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: NOT LISTENING NANANA CAN'T HEAR YOU
03:59	bitemyapp	this was a good night for going to bed with beer.
03:59	bitemyapp	ambrosebs: you should ask questions in here more often, this is fun.
03:59	ddellacosta	hahaa
03:59	ambrosebs	:)
03:59	ddellacosta	man, I want a beer, but I got to do some work. In CLJS now that you mention it.
03:59	bitemyapp	double-fist beer and a mug of coffee.
03:59	bitemyapp	or tea. Best way to code.
04:00	ddellacosta	nice. :-)
04:00	bitemyapp	SegFaultAX: Clojure Dojo was fun tonight, you missed out.
04:00	ddellacosta	I'll consider it.
04:00	SegFaultAX	I was at Ansible Fest.
04:00	bitemyapp	we refactored the Gilded Rose problem
04:00	ddellacosta	lucky bastards, with your so-called "community"
04:00	bitemyapp	I'm going to finish debugging mine then move onto getting the RethinkDB client driver releasable.
04:00	bitemyapp	yay server-side yay
04:01	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: I'm luckier still for doing mostly backend lately :P
04:01	bitemyapp	I ran screaming from web when the data warehouse project popped onto my radar.
04:01	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: yes, you are. Actually, I can't complain since I just spent a week writing a mini-query language using Instaparse and propositional logic. SUPER fun.
04:01	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: I AM SO JELLY
04:02	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: it was pretty fucking awesome. I love Instaparse like, so much. :-D
04:02	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: I'm considering writing a mini-query language for wrapping Datalog for the data warehouse, but haven't gotten around to it. That sounds SO cool.
04:02	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: god I want to do something, anything, with Instaparse so badly.
04:02	bitemyapp	you know what I could do?
04:02	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: yeah, I was stoked to have an excuse to use it.
04:02	bitemyapp	I could be an asshole and write a SQL wrapper for RethinkDB. lol.
04:03	bitemyapp	equally fun would be a datalog interface to RethinkDB.
04:03	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: oh, that would be nifty.
04:03	ddellacosta	not that I know much about rethinkDB
04:03	bitemyapp	I should just make datalog wrappers for everything on the planet.
04:03	ddellacosta	hahaha
04:04	bitemyapp	I'm only half joking.
04:04	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: RethinkDB is like MongoDB, except implemented by serious, honest, competent people.
04:04	bitemyapp	also, head of the company is a fellow ex-Common-Lisper.
04:04	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: oh, wow, I will take a look then.
04:04	bitemyapp	so, he's part of the Common Lisp illuminati we don't talk about among muggles.
04:04	ddellacosta	hahaha
04:05	ddellacosta	alright, I hate to cut it short, but I really do have to get back to work...fixing CLJS front-ends.
04:05	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: rethinkdb, notably, has a real clustering stack with nice sharding and replication (sync and async).
04:05	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: cheers, good luck with the work. :)
04:05	bitemyapp	SegFaultAX: how was the ansible stuff?
04:05	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: talk soon. Cheers. :-)
04:05	bitemyapp	SegFaultAX: anything exciting?
04:05	ambrosebs	the most common feedback on nathanic's (awesome) core.typed post seems to be concern about the large ugly types for "second" and "map". Complicated semantics call for complicated types, plus you'd never write anything like that yourself.
04:07	bitemyapp	ambrosebs: the spec is partly that complicated because it's trying to be smart and break out the cases beyond the (Option x) anyway, right?
04:07	bitemyapp	so it's being more specific/smart than what the equivalent Haskell type would be.
04:08	ambrosebs	right, a less useful type would be (All [x] [(NilableSeqable x) -> (U nil x)])
04:09	bitemyapp	the equivalent Haskell would be either [a] -> a or [a] -> Maybe a, but it's not being nearly as specific about what's going on is the latter type is isomorphic with (Seqable x) -> (Option x)
04:09	bitemyapp	Not sure why the Seqable is wrapped in an Option.
04:09	ambrosebs	,(second nil)
04:09	clojurebot	nil
04:09	bitemyapp	ambrosebs: right. I think that aspect of the type system is missed by people that haven't used something nicer.
04:09	ambrosebs	perhaps
04:10	bitemyapp	so, the Option around the Seqable is because you're not excluding anything Clojure generally allows.
04:10	bitemyapp	that makes sense, given how much people like to bounce nils off the wall.
04:10	ambrosebs	well, not excluding common idioms
04:10	bitemyapp	to technomancy's eternal chagrin.
04:13	ambrosebs	what's an example of something browser-dependent that wouldn't type check if I was just going by the DOM spec?
04:13	ambrosebs	a link would be appreciated also :)
04:15	bitemyapp	ambrosebs: addEventListener has different possible arities depending on what browser it is.
04:16	bitemyapp	ambrosebs: it supports a final argument "wantsUntrusted" if it's a gecko/firefox browser.
04:16	bitemyapp	https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/EventTarget.addEventListener
04:16	ambrosebs	bitemyapp: thanks
04:17	bitemyapp	ambrosebs: this is why I asked if this would lead to a type spec that was roughly a "union" of what different vendors offer.
04:18	ambrosebs	bitemyapp: ah, I understand
04:18	ambrosebs	I wonder how TypeScript deals with this
04:19	bitemyapp	ambrosebs: http://typescript.codeplex.com/SourceControl/changeset/view/fe3bc0bfce1f#bin/lib.d.ts
04:19	bitemyapp	https://github.com/borisyankov/DefinitelyTyped
04:20	ambrosebs	bitemyapp: thx!
04:20	bitemyapp	attachEvent(event: string, listener: EventListener): bool;
04:20	bitemyapp	declare function addEventListener(type: string, listener: EventListener, useCapture?: bool): void;
04:20	bitemyapp	they choose to ignore the existence of the Mozilla variant.
04:21	bitemyapp	but they recognize the existence of their bastard rendition of addEventListener.
04:21	bitemyapp	the point of Mozilla's fourth argument is so you can distinguish between events emitted by typical browser DOM events versus events that might've been faked or emitted by custom JS code.
04:21	bitemyapp	IIRC
04:22	bitemyapp	ucb: hi!
04:22	notofi	Hi, can somebody explain this: http://pastebin.com/3RQZGWGL
04:22	ucb	bitemyapp: hey!
04:22	ambrosebs	I'm starting to think I should follow the DOM spec, then invite people to turn the type checker off for uglier things
04:23	bitemyapp	ucb: I'm complaining at ambrosebs about javascript :)
04:23	SegFaultAX	I hate our current managed hosting provider. Fucking dreadful...
04:23	bitemyapp	ambrosebs: I would tend to agree.
04:23	SegFaultAX	"10 minute site upgrade" == 2 hours of downtime and counting.
04:23	ucb	I think most of the world would agree
04:23	bitemyapp	with the hope that entropy is moving people towards, rather than away from, the DOM spec.
04:23	ucb	SegFaultAX: /D:\
04:23	ambrosebs	notofi: def is only for top levels
04:23	bitemyapp	SegFaultAX: can you say who?
04:23	ambrosebs	notofi: use let for locals
04:23	notofi	ambrosebs: Can you explain why Z is def'd ?
04:24	ucb	SegFaultAX: was it you whom I spoke to about graphite and things?
04:24	notofi	ambrosebs: I am aware that def is for top levels
04:24	SegFaultAX	ucb: Probably.
04:24	ambrosebs	notofi: it should only be used at the top level also
04:24	SegFaultAX	In fact yes, definitely.
04:25	ucb	SegFaultAX: cool. Have you heard/considered kairosdb as a relacement for carbon?
04:25	ambrosebs	notofi: the compiler does strange things otherwise
04:25	ucb	I'm currently pondering on that
04:25	SegFaultAX	No, I haven't. What do you like about it?
04:25	ambrosebs	notofi: basically the analyzer makes any vars during analysis
04:26	ambrosebs	notofi: Z is created as an unbound var
04:26	notofi	ambrosebs: thx
04:26	ucb	bitemyapp: not your cup of tea probably, but this is what right now in my headphones: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw1K823RHoQ
04:26	ucb	SegFaultAX: the promise of scalability mostly as well as the greener grass
04:26	SegFaultAX	bitemyapp: Peer1
04:27	bitemyapp	ucb: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8UcffWuDG4
04:27	ucb	"Conifer" <- how nordic
04:27	ucb	enqueued
04:28	bitemyapp	ucb: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vpE9XvPSzE
04:28	ucb	enqueued
04:28	bitemyapp	this MoR isn't bad, this would be good for driving.
04:28	bitemyapp	nice vocals.
04:28	ucb	MoR is awesome
04:29	ucb	that particular album is A++++++
04:29	bitemyapp	ucb: what are your feelings on post-metal / post-punk / hardcorey stuff?
04:29	ucb	one of those rock bands where the mean age is ~50, they never "made it" despite being great, etc.
04:30	ucb	bitemyapp: I need examples to be able to comment. I stopped listening to "new music" in the 90s. I hate anything by metallica after their fourth album, same with Pantera and you can see where this is going.
04:30	bitemyapp	post-punk/hardcore isn't anything like the two bands you mentioned.
04:30	ucb	I know
04:31	ucb	I was just exemplifying how I hate new things
04:31	bitemyapp	ucb: most of the music I've sent you is after the 90s.
04:31	bitemyapp	in particular, the blackgaze stuff I've been kicking over is usually quite new.
04:31	ucb	counter-example detected. Brain melt sequence initiated.
04:31	ucb	all beliefs challenged.
04:34	ucb	bitemyapp: in any case, give me a few band names as examples please?
04:35	bitemyapp	ho damn. post-punk and post-hardcore are both really hard to pin down. Shonen Knife, Gallows, Pallbearer, Letlive, Polar.
04:35	bitemyapp	ucb: to offset the utter devastation of the first two songs I sent, here's some hyper-indie happy post-metal: https://soundcloud.com/mynameisjonjo/a-weekend-at-the-end-of
04:36	ucb	I've listened to Gallows. They were ok.
04:36	bitemyapp	k, Gallows is post-hardcore, to give you an idea of where they are in the rainbow.
04:36	ucb	oh, in other rock-related news, I saw Mark Lanegan live 2 weeks ago
04:36	bitemyapp	Post-punk is very eclectic though, anything from Joy Division to new-wave applies.
04:36	ucb	joy division is good in my book
04:37	ucb	The Editors were heading in the right direction before they cocked it up
04:37	Morgawr	since we're talking about music, I'll just do my advertising job and link this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfiX7PHYKo4 :P It's from my own band, just dropping it here in case anybody likes it
04:37	Morgawr	probably not your genre but still worth a try haha
04:38	bitemyapp	Morgawr: I love metal like this, thanks for sharing!
04:38	bitemyapp	this reminds me of Sabaton and Forefather.
04:38	ucb	Morgawr: sounds good so far
04:38	Morgawr	bitemyapp: check out the whole EP if you feel like it, we only released one so far (and I had to leave the band unfortunately because I'm studying abroad now :( )
04:38	bitemyapp	Morgawr: what do you play?
04:38	Morgawr	lead guitar
04:39	ucb	bitemyapp: anyway, my comment about lanegan is that the support act were Sean&Zander. Had never heard of them before this gig, but they are pretty good: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhxsTugRDVY
04:39	ucb	Morgawr: <3 this type of metal
04:39	Morgawr	ucb: <3 :D
04:39	ucb	Morgawr: is this Italian?
04:40	Morgawr	ucb: yeah, we're Italian
04:40	ucb	nice
04:40	bitemyapp	Morgawr: so awesome :)
04:40	Morgawr	we sing mostly in English with Italian parts in-between
04:40	Morgawr	(mostly for lyrical voice)
04:41	ucb	for lyrical awesome you mean
04:41	Morgawr	haha
04:41	bitemyapp	I love #clojure so much.
04:41	bitemyapp	I just want to hug it to death.
04:41	bitemyapp	but now I must sleep. G'night all :)
04:41	Morgawr	night :)
04:42	ucb	night bitemyapp
04:42	ucb	sorry I couldn't be more opinionated
04:43	ambrosebs	bitemyapp: night
05:07	mindbender1	why is ring.middleware.file-info/wrap-file-info and few others marked deprecated. What's next?
05:20	clgv	mindbender1: from the HISTORY.md I'd guess `file-response` might be the replacement mechanism
05:20	logic_prog	is there a nice way to store an object that is simultaneously a sexp and a file? i.e. I have a symbolic clojure expression. HOwever, I also want to remember what line / what column each character came from (and the preserving of white space + newlines)
05:21	clgv	logic_prog: from the second part I'd say just store clojure source. but the first question seems contradictory
06:54	t_hash	dn
08:46	maku__	Can anyone help me merge many vectors into one? (into [] []) works for two, but I would like to merge several.
08:48	AimHere	You could use (vec (concat ...)) or wrap a series of (into [] ) calls with reduce, or loop
08:48	AimHere	If concatenating vectors is something you're doing a lot of, I'd consider using just a list instead, for performance reasons
08:51	maku__	AimHere: Thanks!
08:51	llasram	maku__: (reduce into [] other-vectors)
08:52	Morgawr	llasram: that only works if "other-vectors" is a sequence of vectors
08:52	llasram	Oh, you did mention `reduce`, AimHere
08:52	Morgawr	but yeah
08:52	llasram	Morgawr: That was the intended implication, yes :-)
08:52	Morgawr	just clarifying it :P
08:52	llasram	kk
08:53	Morgawr	although in that case you can just do
08:53	Morgawr	(flatten other-vectors)
08:53	llasram	NOOOOOOO
08:54	Morgawr	&(reduce into [] [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9]])
08:54	lazybot	⇒ [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9]
08:54	Morgawr	&(flatten [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9]])
08:54	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)
08:54	Morgawr	:D
08:58	hyPiRion	~flatten
08:58	clojurebot	flatten is rarely the right answer. Suppose you need to use a list as your "base type", for example. Usually you only want to flatten a single level, and in that case you're better off with concat. Or, better still, use mapcat to produce a sequence that's shaped right to begin with.
09:09	clgv	Morgawr: hyPiRion meant you should use apply concat instead of flatten there. or (apply into [] [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9]]) works good as well ;)
09:10	hyPiRion	I meant to say that you rarely need flatten
09:11	hyPiRion	If you have a list of vector, why do you have said list? Could you use mapcat at some point to avoid the overhead?
09:31	ngw	hi *
09:31	hyPiRion	hi there
09:38	ngw	I'm trying to figure out pedestal and how to serve different content with something like the :format variable in rails
09:38	ngw	for example a route like '/home.:format' will respond to /home.html putting html in the format parameter and home.json will put json in the format parameter
09:39	ngw	this way I can serve different data through the same action/route
09:39	ngw	is this possible_
09:39	ngw	?
09:39	daemian	ngw: https://github.com/ToBeReplaced/pedestal-content-negotiation served my purposes.
09:48	mercwithamouth	hrmm does anyone feel that emacs-live is 'too much'?
09:48	tim__	mercwithamouth: yes, it is
09:49	tbaldrige	sadly, I'm not versed enough in emacs to go and make my own config. Someday perhaps. Until then, I live with the bloat that is emacs live.
09:49	tbaldrige	I wouldn't recommend it to anyone else, however.
09:50	chronno	tbaldrige: Of all the bloat, what bothers you most?
09:51	tbaldrige	chronno: it's just heavy in general. I have a 2012 MBP, and yet it still hiccups when doing symbol look-up for intelisense for instance.
09:53	chronno	chronno: yep, I tried if for a while and found it slow and hard to take apart. In the end I decided to start a clojure config from scratch.
09:54	chronno	chronno: I decided that when I found out it changed some of the standard bindings...
09:58	mercwithamouth	funny i just set up sublime text and it's not bad AT ALL
09:59	mercwithamouth	i still think emacs-live is king ....i'll be give a more informed rant later most likely
10:01	mikerod	Does anyone have any successful experience with using maven-shade-plugin for a Clojure (mixed with Java) project where you want the Clojure to be AOT compiled?
10:02	mikerod	I was experiencing slow load times and I noticed that all of the Clojure files were being compiled dynamically during JVM start up. I was confused for a while, then I realized that maven-shade-plugin alters the timestamps of all the files in the uber-jar.
10:02	mikerod	So, the effect of this was, all of the clojure-ns.clj files were the same date as the clojure-ns.class files.
10:02	mikerod	When this happens, the Clojure compiler recompiles the .clj file.
10:03	mikerod	I know that lein uberjar doesn't cause this issue. Currently, we must use Maven for our uber-jarring though.
10:04	chronno	tbaldrige: btw, I just finished watching your macros/core.async videos. Very nice job :-)
10:08	tbaldrige	thanks!
10:09	silasdavis	how can I access values in my profiles.clj from a repl?
10:10	clgv	silasdavis: you can't by default. you need to read or load that file to do that
10:11	coventry	It'd be nice if there was a plugin/dependency which let the project jvm communicate out to the lein jvm.
10:15	silasdavis	I've got my aws credentials in there for lein beanstalk
10:15	hyPiRion	coventry: We're trying to avoid that at all cost. Is there any reason you'd like to communicate BACK to the lein jvm?
10:15	silasdavis	and I'm using AmazonS3Client and I was looking for a way to hook them up so I don't have to repeat myself
10:16	coventry	hyPiRion: Just that a couple of people have asked similar questions to silasdavis's recently, and that seems like an obvious solution. What are the drawbacks?
10:17	hyPiRion	coventry: Suddenly your project depends on a version of Leiningen to work correctly, and may crash if you attempt to run the project standalone. If there are tighter coupling, there would be dependency issues too.
10:17	coventry	hyPiRion: Makes sense.
10:18	hyPiRion	silasdavis: you've got aws credentials in your project.clj?
10:20	silasdavis	hyPiRion: yes..
10:20	silasdavis	as per https://github.com/weavejester/lein-beanstalk
10:21	hyPiRion	silasdavis: ah, profiles.clj, not project.clj. I misread. I was wondering whether you checked out the aws credentials
10:22	silasdavis	oh sorry
10:24	coventry	hyPiRion: Would a middleware which dropped the project map into a lein-project-map namespace of the project jvm be a bad idea?
10:24	hyPiRion	silasdavis: well, for what it's worth, you may make a plugin for that as it's only data from leiningen to the project jvm, not vice versa. But I'm not sure whether that's safe or not.
10:24	xeqi	silasdavis: most people have a config file that is loaded form the resource path, and then use profiles to choose the right one. Take a look at https://github.com/sonian/carica or https://github.com/weavejester/environ
10:25	silasdavis	xeqi: yeah I'm using carica, I just thought it might be nice to reuse the :aws {
10:25	silasdavis	:access-key ... } section I already hav
10:25	silasdavis	in profiles.clj
10:26	hyPiRion	coventry: Not if it's well-written. But profiles are merged into the project map, and a poor implementation may leak personal data/setup.
10:27	coventry	Hmm, I can see how that would be a bad idea when testing 3rd party projects out. Thanks.
10:30	xeqi	coventry: well, testing third part projects already runs arbitrary code :p
10:45	arrdem	clojurebot: ping
10:45	clojurebot	PONG!
10:50	clgv	lazybot: ping
10:50	lazybot	clgv: Ping completed in 0 seconds.
10:57	jagaj	I was looking at this http://www.ohloh.net/p/clojure and I was wondering what caused the clojure codebase to be eviscerated around oct/nov 2007?
10:59	technomancy	probably dropping CLR support
11:02	silasdavis	can you set jvm-opts in profiles.clj?
11:13	ddellacosta	anyone, perchance, used stefon on heroku?
11:14	ddellacosta	cannot figure out why it claims to be compiling assets, yet utterly fails to do so
11:24	cmajor7	never looked at it before, so I'll just ask: does clojurescript (maybe by gclosure proxy) does anything cool with a browser local storage (e.g. fall back for "supported storage" (e.g. sqllite for safary, indexeddb for …))?
11:24	cmajor7	*does clojurescript do
11:27	dnolen	cmajor7: http://docs.closure-library.googlecode.com/git/namespace_goog_storage.html
11:31	cmajor7	dnolen: cool, so this: https://code.google.com/p/closure-library/source/browse/closure/goog/storage/mechanism/ defines all the supported mechanisms?
11:31	dnolen	cmajor7: no iea
11:31	dnolen	cmajor7: no idea
11:33	cmajor7	dnolen: just curious, but thanks for the right direction :)
12:01	ToBeReplaced	oh... the conj sold out? bummer
12:02	xeqi	or really good news about the interest in clojure
12:02	llasram	Oh, wow
12:03	llasram	I was feeling bad for getting a late reg ticket. Now I can just feel good for getting one at all :-)
12:10	silasdavis	how can I do (map .javaInstanceMethod java-object-list)
12:10	silasdavis	without having to do
12:10	silasdavis	(map (fn [x] (.javaInstanceMethod x)) java-object-list)?
12:10	`cbp	Well you can always use #() notation :P
12:11	llasram	silasdavis: What `cbp said, or if you feel like being non-standard check out: https://github.com/llasram/method-fn
12:12	tbaldrige	silasdavis: http://blog.jayfields.com/2011/08/clojure-memfn.html
12:12	silasdavis	thanks
12:12	tbaldrige	but yeah, most people use #()
12:15	bhenry	hiredman: bitemyapp: coventry: if any of you are interested, i found out that the `lein ring server` command had a different classpath than the nrepl. for some reason, it was using clojure 1.2.1 instead of the 1.5.1 from the other dependency.
12:15	bhenry	i have no clue why that would be
12:36	glosoli	Anyone familiar with bouncer preconditions? I am wondering why would :pre (seq :country) fail, and :pre (comp seq country) wouldn't at the times when country returns nil
12:37	justin_smith	how would :country be a seq?
12:38	justin_smith	it is a keyword
12:38	glosoli	justin_smith: it's from Bouncer, :country is invoked on a map
12:38	justin_smith	oh, sorry, I missed that, don't mind me
12:39	glosoli	justin_smith: the value it gets is (:country {})
12:39	glosoli	Hmm thats seems to be the thing with Clojure pre-conditions, not bouncers explicitly
12:39	llasram	glosoli: Do you mean (comp seq :country) instead of (seq :country)
12:39	llasram	?
12:40	llasram	Not that either makes sense, actually
12:40	glosoli	llasram: why wouldn't ? if I want to check if the string is empty, wouldn't (seq "") do the trick ?
12:41	llasram	glosoli: If we're talking normal Clojure :pre and :post conditions, they're expressions, not functions
12:41	llasram	so (comp seq :country) evaluates to a function, which is always truthy
12:41	glosoli	and seq ?
12:41	glosoli	aaaa
12:42	glosoli	llasram: nvm thanks! :) I understand it now
12:44	glosoli	Bouncers pre seems to work a bit different
12:44	justin_smith	glosoli: also:
12:44	justin_smith	,((fn [] {:pre (seq {})} 1))
12:44	clojurebot	1
12:44	justin_smith	,((fn [] {:pre (seq nil)} 1))
12:44	clojurebot	#<AssertionError java.lang.AssertionError: Assert failed: nil>
12:44	justin_smith	notice that {} does not make that pre fail
12:45	glosoli	justin_smith: well it shouldn't hmm all I am doing it just looking for a proper way to check in pre-condition if the string is empty hmm
12:45	justin_smith	it could be I was the one confused - I thought you indicated above it would get {} as the value for :country
12:45	llasram	That's because the :pre and :post values should be collections of condition expressions
12:45	llasram	((fn [] {:pre [(seq {})]} 1))
12:45	llasram	,((fn [] {:pre [(seq {})]} 1))
12:45	clojurebot	#<AssertionError java.lang.AssertionError: Assert failed: (seq {})>
12:46	`cbp	justin_smith: isnt (seq {}) supposed to be surrounded by []?
12:46	justin_smith	llasram: oh! thanks
12:46	llasram	,((fn [] {:pre [(seq #{:whatever})]} 1))
12:46	clojurebot	1
12:46	`cbp	oh :P
12:46	justin_smith	so I thought it was checking (seq nil) but really it was checking seq, then nil
12:47	glosoli	Ok, that's totally confusing, so what's the idiomatic way to check if string is empty
12:47	glosoli	?
12:47	llasram	`cbp: Better luck next, old timer
12:47	justin_smith	glosoli emty? or #(= "" %)
12:47	rasmusto	,(= "" "")
12:47	clojurebot	true
12:47	justin_smith	*empty
12:47	seangrove	,((fn [s] {:pre [(not (empty? s))]} 1) "")
12:47	clojurebot	#<AssertionError java.lang.AssertionError: Assert failed: (not (empty? s))>
12:48	justin_smith	,(empty? "")
12:48	clojurebot	true
12:48	seangrove	,((fn [s] {:pre [(not (empty? s))]} 1) "look")
12:48	clojurebot	1
12:48	rasmusto	,((fn [s] {:pre [(not (empty? s))]} 1) [1 2 3])
12:48	clojurebot	1
12:48	justin_smith	but (seq "") also returns nil, so it works in this case too
12:48	rasmusto	depends if you want it to fail on non-strings
12:49	glosoli	..
12:49	glosoli	rasmusto: I want it to
12:49	seangrove	,((fn [s] {:pre [(not (empty? s)) (string? s]} 1) [1])
12:49	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: ]>
12:49	seangrove	Erm, you get the idea
12:50	bordatoue	could anyone please tell me how to specify java file with a package structure under lein , so that I can use compile it using lein javac. I have managed to get the classfiles compiled with out package structure, however with the package structure I am getting compilation errors
12:50	rasmusto	,((fn [s] {:pre [(string? s) (not= "" s)]} s) "abc")
12:50	clojurebot	"abc"
12:50	justin_smith	seangrove: why use (not (empty ...)) instead of (seq ...)?
12:50	glosoli	yeah why
12:51	glosoli	`(seq "")
12:51	glosoli	,(seq "")
12:51	clojurebot	nil
12:51	seangrove	justin_smith: Actually, there was a point somewhere (maybe by hickey?) that people should always use (seq ...) insted of (not (empty? ...))
12:51	dgrnbrg	I'm having trouble using java.sql.Timestamp in clojure.java.jdbc 0.2.3 queries, in that when I pass the Timestamp into the ? slot in the query, I get a SQLServerException The conversion from UNKNOWN to UNKNOWN is unsupported. com.microsoft.sqlserver.jdbc.SQLServerException.makeFromDriverError (SQLServerException.java:190)
12:51	technomancy	seangrove: I don't buy that
12:51	glosoli	seangrove: yeah it's in sources docs :)
12:51	seangrove	So, my bad!
12:51	`cbp	empty? is pretty much (not (seq ..))
12:51	dgrnbrg	does anyone know what's going on in jdbc
12:51	dgrnbrg	?
12:51	rasmusto	why are you using seq instead of checking its equality w/ "" ?
12:51	`cbp	so not empty is (not (not (seq))) !
12:51	glosoli	seangrove: Part of the empty? documentation :) That's what made me confusing
12:51	justin_smith	,(doc empty?)
12:51	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns true if coll has no items - same as (not (seq coll)). Please use the idiom (seq x) rather than (not (empty? x))"
12:52	glosoli	rasmusto: seems more clean
12:52	technomancy	the fact that you can call seq on something that's a seq and get something back that's not a seq is just bonkers
12:52	`cbp	is this about nil? :P
12:52	rasmusto	if you're constraining the input to be a string anyways, wouldn't an inequality check be more clear?
12:52	technomancy	`cpb: heh, no this is a weirdness specific t oclojure
12:54	llasram	In ClojureScript, is the ISeq protocol implemented for `nil`?
12:54	llasram	Because if so, then I think you could argue that `nil` is a seq :-)
12:54	Morgawr	llasram: I'm not sure but I know that (seq? nil) -> false
12:54	Morgawr	&(seq? nil)
12:54	lazybot	⇒ false
12:55	llasram	In JVM Clojure, sure, because it's not an object which implements the JVM interface ISeq
12:56	llasram	But the Clojure abstractions have never been entirely bounded by their JVM interfaces, and the ClojureScript re-expression of those abstractions in protocols goes a lot further
12:56	llasram	If ClojureScript extends ISeq to nil, then I' would argue that nil is a seq, despite JVM Clojure's (seq? nil) => false
12:56	xuser	dgrnbrg: maybe its related: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/H1gWA9CQ3S0
12:57	Morgawr	llasram: oh you said ClojureScript, sorry! I didn't see it
12:57	bordatoue	has anyone compiled java class using lein javac that has a package structure????
12:57	llasram	bordatoue: yes? if I understand your question.
12:57	seangrove	bordatoue: I have not.
12:58	bordatoue	llasram: how did you specify package structure ,
12:58	seangrove	Stack Overflow would probably be a good place to ask, if you can't find enough information on it - should help the next poor soul who comes along.
12:58	dgrnbrg	xuser: this isn't about timestamps, but appears to be that the `with-query-results` is setting every param to object, where my param is actually a Timestamp
12:59	bordatoue	llasram: when I am adding .java files under my java directory if it has a package structure for example abc.efg.myclass then the compilation fails
12:59	bordatoue	llasram: did you have to provide any additional entries in the project.clj file
12:59	llasram	bordatoue: Just create the same directory structure you would for Java. So if your :java-source-paths is ["src/java"], then
12:59	llasram	you'd have src/java/abc/efg/MyClass.java
13:00	bordatoue	llasram: ok, that makes sense . Thanks
13:03	bordatoue	llasram: how do i specify libraries in the javac classpath , currently I have listed all my exteranl jars under resource-paths
13:04	llasram	bordatoue: Same way you do for any other dependency -- they should be in an artifact repository and listed under :dependencies
13:04	xuser	dgrnbrg: no idea sorry, was just watching the lists and saw that ;)
13:05	bordatoue	llasram: why can I add my local jar to resource-paths, won't that work
13:05	llasram	It'll "work", but you're left with a non-reproducible build
13:06	bordatoue	llasram: the problem i'm having is that that it is not finding the reference to package that is specified under reource-paths
13:08	llasram	Are you listing each individual JAR in :resource-paths ?
13:10	bordatoue	yes
13:11	llasram	Hmm. Then I don't know. Check for types? You can try `lein classpath` to see exactly how the classpath is ending up
13:11	llasram	s,types,typos, <- ha!
13:11	bordatoue	the classpath that lien show during lein classpath is it the one that will be used during javac
13:12	llasram	yes
13:12	bordatoue	llasram: thanks very much for your help
13:13	llasram	np, and good luck!
13:49	TimMc	Is Michael Klishin here?
13:49	bitemyapp	TimMc: no, he's antares.
13:49	bitemyapp	TimMc: what do you need help with?
13:49	TimMc	I started writing a URL library in Java ("johnny"), but now I wonder if I should be contributing to Urly.
13:50	bitemyapp	does it do anything that Urly does not?
13:50	TimMc	Urly has some really nice design choices, but I don't like that it accepts sloppy inputs.
13:50	bitemyapp	maybe a "strict" mode?
13:50	TimMc	Yeah.
13:50	bitemyapp	Nifty. You could ping him on Twatter
13:50	TimMc	https://github.com/timmc/johnny is what I was writing for my employer's Hack Week.
13:51	TimMc	OK, I'll see if I have an intertwubs account...
13:58	TimMc	OK, I sent up a twitsignal.
14:03	antares_	TimMc: hey
14:04	TimMc	Hey there.
14:04	TimMc	antares_: So I've slapped together this thing: https://github.com/timmc/johnny
14:05	pandeiro	is lein 2.3.4 in the pipes?
14:05	TimMc	It does successive parsing of URLs, querystrings, paths with path parameters... although I'm still working out the API.
14:05	antares_	TimMc: looks nice
14:06	TimMc	Do you think there's room in Urly for a strict mode? I agree wit the general philosophy of a fluent API using persistent data structures, but automatically fixing things like http://http:// gives me the willies. :-P
14:06	antares_	TimMc: we can drop some of that for Urly 2.0
14:07	antares_	TimMc: I'd be happy to base Urly 2.0 on a solid Java library
14:07	pandeiro	lein repl :connect is broken for me on 2.3.3 and it seems like the issue was fixed already (issue 1344)
14:10	TimMc	antares_: johnny is mostly a thin wrapper around java.net and Google Guava classes, but I'm working to find the corner cases. E.g. IPv6 hosts that specify a zone ID need percent-encoding, which destroys the notion that the host component doesn't get decoded. :-/
14:11	TimMc	So I'm trying to present a really structured view, where you can get either the raw string for each component or a parsed value.
14:12	antares_	TimMc: sounds good
14:12	antares_	TimMc: ping me when you flesh out at least some key API parts, I will be happy to see if I can contribute something from/for Urly
14:12	TimMc	I'm also trying to strike a balance between the way that most people use URLs and the full flexibility of the specs. One place that's tricky is querystrings; most apps only care about ordering of values per-key, at most, but some apps might care about total key-value pair order.
14:13	antares_	TimMc: right. Using sorted maps may be a good idea.
14:13	TimMc	antares_: Oh, just continnue working on johnny, then see where to go from there on either project? Sounds good.
14:13	antares_	TimMc: I think there should be a Java library that does what Urly wants to do
14:13	TimMc	antares_: https://github.com/timmc/johnny/blob/master/src/main/java/com/brightcove/johnny/parts/PersistentOrderedParams.java
14:14	antares_	and Urly should be based on it. Bonus points for making Johhny use immutable data structures (hm, maybe even Clojure's)
14:14	TimMc	^ Persistent multimap with total key-value ordering.
14:14	antares_	cool
14:14	TimMc	I'm actually kind of proud of that one.
14:14	TimMc	(Mind you, I haven't perf-tested any of this.)
14:15	antares_	poor Scala/Groovy people should not have to deal with URI parsing problems!
14:15	TimMc	Yeah, that's why I'm bothering to write it in plain Java.
14:15	TimMc	(even though I'm sneaking some Clojure in for the query representations)
14:16	`cbp	:3
14:18	bitemyapp	antares_: can I ask a favor of you?
14:18	pandeiro	hm guess i will just switch to running lein snapshots
14:18	technomancy	pandeiro: can you set LEIN_REPL_PORT with 2.3.3?
14:18	nollidj	anyone know if there's any way to make core.typed signatures available at runtime, so that i can reason about them? i'm interested in doing what amounts to function composition at runtime, and it would be great to use core.typed signatures to constrain the space of what can be composed and to validate composition before it happens
14:18	pandeiro	technomancy: i had not tried that, want me to?
14:19	pandeiro	i'm content using snapshots
14:19	pandeiro	unless you think that's a bad idea
14:19	pandeiro	since i would like to try to contribute something
14:19	pandeiro	(that :stop task we talked about the other day)
14:19	nollidj	doing that is also contingent on the existence of predicates that operate over the types that core.typed produces...
14:19	antares_	bitemyapp: ?
14:20	bitemyapp	antares_: please don't RT Twitter drama llamas :(
14:20	bitemyapp	antares_: I like following your Twitter but I've had to axe a bunch of people on my following list because there was a huge wave of tears and caremad going around.
14:20	technomancy	pandeiro: if the LEIN_REPL_PORT workaround doesn't work, that means we should consider 2.3.4 sooner rather than later
14:21	antares_	bitemyapp: do I usually participate in dramas?
14:21	bitemyapp	antares_: no, but you RT some of them. Not a big deal, just figured I'd ask.
14:21	bitemyapp	I also follow zedshaw, so, he's currently King on that Hill.
14:21	antares_	well, sometimes it's just wrong to stay completely silent
14:22	edw	Anyone get problems jacking in to lein from Emacs in Mavericks? I'm getting a security exception. Odd.
14:22	gtrak	where's a good place to eval this snippet on nrepl startup? Useful for threads not taken care of by binding-conveyor-fn. (alter-var-root #'out (constantly out))
14:24	bitemyapp	edw: no problems here, but I don't use nrepl jack in, I use a proper lein repl instance.
14:24	pandeiro	technomancy: that fix works with 2.3.3
14:25	edw	pandeiro: On invocation got a security exception just typing 'lein repl' from the command line from within shell in Cocoa Emacs.
14:25	pandeiro	edw: security exception from where?
14:26	pandeiro	i've never seen that but i'm guessing maybe lein was not installed properly
14:26	dobry-den	What would be a nice way to do something like (merge [0 0 0] [1]) -> [0 0 1]?
14:27	edw	Connection refused in Cocoa Emacs.
14:27	edw	When connecting to the port where I have `lein repl` running in a terminal window.
14:27	llasram	dobry-den: It's not clear quite what's happening in your example. Why is the last element the one being "merge"d into?
14:27	dobry-den	more specifically, (merge (byte-array 4) [(byte 1)]) -> 00000001
14:28	dobry-den	llasram: i'm trying to pad an array
14:28	pandeiro	edw: my error was different; and i don't use OS X so no way to test that here, sorry
14:28	edw	Also, got a security exception when running `lein repl` inside `M-x shell` in Coca Emacs. I'm installing Xcode 5.0.1 and will be re-building Homebrew Emacs as soon as that happens.
14:28	edw	Seems to be some sort of sandboxing.
14:31	dobry-den	i guess a naive solution would be (take-last padcount (concat (byte-array 4) [(byte 1)]))) -> 00000001.
14:31	edw	Hmm, there's already a Java update for Mavericks. Yay?
14:32	dobry-den	i'm too scared to upgrade OS anymore
14:32	dobry-den	my monkeyball daisychain of hacks might fall apart
14:33	dobry-den	it's a lot of yak shaving
14:34	`cbp	dobry-den: maybe you wanna use java.nio?
14:38	pandeiro	is there a reply option for injecting forms?
14:38	technomancy	pandeiro: you can put :injections in the :repl profile and they should get picked up
14:39	pandeiro	technomancy: this would be in the context of the lein repl :stop task, so i'd basically want to do what :connect does, but inject (System/exit 0)
14:41	technomancy	pandeiro: you can do that by running (eval-in-project (assoc project :eval-in :nrepl) '(System/exit 0))
14:41	technomancy	you don't need injections
14:42	technomancy	though that has the port as being hard-coded in :target-path/repl-port so it might not be suitable
14:43	pandeiro	i suppose shelling out to echo and piping to lein repl :connect is not an option
14:43	pandeiro	i mean, for including in lein
14:44	technomancy	no, but rebinding in isn't out of the question
14:45	pandeiro	do you know the java class i'd need to use to rebind in?
14:46	technomancy	probably a java.io.StringReader?
14:46	technomancy	might need to be wrapped in a pushback reader?
14:51	amalloy	yes, needs pbr of stringreader
14:52	amalloy	or, well, pbr of any reader
14:53	pandeiro	this is something that can't really be tested at the repl, the rebinding of in, yeah?
14:54	pandeiro	but i am wondering how i even can test other repl ns functions (client) from the repl, if possible... generating a project like the one the function sees
14:55	bitemyapp	who's up for a riddle? https://www.refheap.com/20104 https://www.refheap.com/20106 <- wtf is going on?
14:55	bitemyapp	the only deftrace that prints is for the top-level fn that gets invoked.
14:55	coventry	You're running in the lein jvm, right? Why not connect the same way lein repl :connect does?
14:57	llasram	bitemyapp: Is this for a logic puzzle or the start of the best computer game ever?
14:57	rasmusto	bitemyapp: Backstage passes to a TAFKAL80ETC concert
14:57	pandeiro	coventry: yes i wanted to just add another case clause that would do what connect does, and then eval the (System/exit 0) form
14:57	bitemyapp	llasram: it was a refactoring thingy from Clojure Dojo last night
14:57	bitemyapp	I'm pretty happy with my solution's design, but I have this weird bug that is baffling me.
14:58	technomancy	pandeiro: you can test it from a repl inside lein itself
14:58	amalloy	bitemyapp: looks like you're expecting map to be eager, but it's lazy?
14:59	bitemyapp	amalloy: but where is the error coming from if things aren't getting evaluated?
14:59	amalloy	i don't know, because you have not yet said anything about an error
15:00	bitemyapp	I pasted two links.
15:00	bitemyapp	The error is in the second.
15:00	Raynes	gf3: Am I insane or do you have two different snapchat usernames?
15:00	bitemyapp	I can paste a more complete error + trace because I removed the laziness.
15:00	amalloy	ugh. missed the second one, since it blended into the first. sorry
15:00	pandeiro	technomancy: running a repl instead a lein repl? sorry for my density
15:00	bitemyapp	https://www.refheap.com/20107
15:00	coventry	bitemyapp: stacktrace refers to line 89 core.clj, but the first refheap has only 62 lines. Can you post the complete thing?
15:01	bitemyapp	https://www.refheap.com/20108
15:01	bitemyapp	coventry: 107 and 108 are the more complete error and the full code, respectively.
15:01	bitemyapp	https://www.refheap.com/20107 https://www.refheap.com/20108
15:01	technomancy	pandeiro: if you launch a repl inside the lein checkout and one inside a project you want to shut down, you can test your changes to the repl task in the first one
15:01	gf3	Raynes: You're insane
15:01	gf3	Raynes: I'm only LOLgianni
15:02	Raynes	gf3: Then who the shit is lolreduce?
15:02	gf3	Raynes: bitemyapp
15:02	coventry	bitemyapp: trace the binding to rule-fn
15:02	bitemyapp	amalloy: coventry I think I found the error.
15:02	gf3	Raynes: (Chris)
15:02	clojurebot	Pardon?
15:02	bitemyapp	coventry: It's trying to "get" a vector
15:02	bitemyapp	instead of the key
15:02	bitemyapp	I need to destructure the key and the bool.
15:02	Raynes	gf3, bitemyapp: Which one of you sent me dancing snaps last night?
15:02	gf3	Raynes: We both did, but bitemyapp did ones later
15:03	bitemyapp	gf3: sssshhh we should just confuse him
15:03	Raynes	That was a hell of a confusing night.
15:03	amalloy	oh good. i thought it might be that, bitemyapp, but i convinced myself you were handling that correctly. prove me right/wrong!
15:03	bitemyapp	amalloy: it was harder to debug because the laziness meant the traces weren't popping up
15:03	bitemyapp	now that my deftrace is behaving properly with the mapv's, I see what I did wrong now. :)
15:05	bitemyapp	yeah, my code works now!
15:05	bitemyapp	sweet.
15:05	bitemyapp	now I just need a juxt and reduce :)
15:08	amalloy	bitemyapp: a little plug for useful: flatland.useful.debug/? is kinda like deftrace, but more focused (print particular expressions, not all args to each invocation of a function), and apparently more robust: if the thing you're printing throws an exception, it catches that, prints it, and rethrows
15:09	Raynes	My life would be much better if I had more flatland.useful.debug in my life.
15:09	pandeiro	technomancy: right sorry where i'm confused is how i construct the project argument in the lein checkout repl?
15:09	Raynes	Not that it'd help me much with the pool of Ruby I'm drowning in. :P
15:09	technomancy	pandeiro: use leiningen.core.project/read
15:10	amalloy	s/pool/ocean - when you metaphor, gotta go big
15:10	pandeiro	technomancy: i promise i'll read leiningen core soon, thanks a lot for the patience :)
15:11	coventry	amalloy: Thanks, will try it next time.
15:12	bitemyapp	amalloy: I already knew of flatland/useful, didn't know of that particular thing, thank you!
15:13	bitemyapp	I'm a little mad that most of the errors I've had lately would've been caught by a type system.
15:13	bitemyapp	maybe even...caremad.
15:14	amalloy	man. i am in the middle of a big refactor that involves changing the type of a concept used all throughout the system
15:14	amalloy	and it's like...change one function, some other functions throw exceptions, dunno why. finally fix, change another function, more exceptions
15:14	bitemyapp	amalloy: time for core.typed?
15:15	amalloy	if only i could flip a switch somewhere from `type Id String` to `type Id (Type Number)` and have every relevant piece of code light up like a christmas tree
15:15	amalloy	bitemyapp: i doubt the ROI is high enough for that, but i suppose i could be wrong
15:16	bitemyapp	amalloy: it's easier to pay the cost incrementally, but you can spread the core.typed-ness one namespace at a time.
15:16	bitemyapp	amalloy: it can validate waht you want.
15:18	bitemyapp	amalloy: if I were in the middle of a "change the type of this thing that is everywhere"-Hell, I would've started adding core.typed at that point to assist the refactor.
15:19	coventry	Doesn't that force you to specify types for a whole lot of stuff unrelated to the current problem, though?
15:21	bitemyapp	coventry: not necessarily, you can specify ^:no-check on external stuff you don't care about.
15:21	MaFINaR	Hello Guys
15:21	bitemyapp	MaFINaR: hi!
15:22	coventry	Would a tool to decorate everything in a module with catchall type make sense, if you wanted to bleed in type constraints gradually?
15:22	seangrove	core.async is lovely.
15:22	rhg135	to whomever recomended hy to me: it has an unholy blend of python semantics with cl syntax and a dash of clojure
15:22	MaFINaR	Has anyone tried the Luminus web framework here ?
15:23	rhg135	i suppose eventually python gets as weird
15:23	bitemyapp	coventry: if you want to, sure. That's what Any is for.
15:23	bitemyapp	MaFINaR: plenty of people. I'm one of the people that works with yogthos, do you need something?
15:24	MaFINaR	I was thinking, Luminus doesn't seem to be discussed about much in the net compared to others
15:24	bitemyapp	Luminus isn't really a "thing in itself"
15:24	MaFINaR	is there anything wrong with it as a framework?
15:24	bitemyapp	it's a best practices ready-to-go template for Ring based applications.
15:24	bitemyapp	It's not a framework in any real sense.
15:24	bitemyapp	using Luminus is just a way to learn how to use Ring, conceptually.
15:24	MaFINaR	okay. How's your experience with it?
15:25	bitemyapp	there aren't many actual frameworks in Clojure-land, they're anathema to most of us.
15:25	bitemyapp	MaFINaR: well I designed some of it, so obviously I'm okay with how Luminus works.
15:25	bitemyapp	you should probably just start using it and poke around.
15:25	MaFINaR	hehe
15:25	bitemyapp	it'll take less time to start using it than to ask vague questions on IRC :)
15:25	MaFINaR	Yeah. I found it pretty accessible. Especially the documentation's pretty good
15:26	seangrove	bitemyapp: Sure, but pedestal seems pretty framework-y to me
15:27	MaFINaR	Hmmm.. I'll start using it right away
15:27	seangrove	Not sure it could be any other way, and you get a lot out of it, but still has a lot of baked-in assumptions
15:27	MaFINaR	Thanks
15:27	bitemyapp	seangrove: I've promised the hard-working individuals that work on Pedestal that I would stop talking about Pedestal in public. :P
15:27	bitemyapp	Suffice it to say, I would be quite happy if Pedestal got componentized.
15:28	amalloy	bitemyapp, you sound like an awful street musician, being paid not to play. not a bad deal
15:29	bitemyapp	amalloy: I like the clojure community, I don't want people to ever hesitate pushing out code just because they think some people might disagree with the design.
15:29	llasram	(inc bitemyapp)
15:29	lazybot	⇒ 4
15:30	bitemyapp	A rising Github tide lifts all Clojure tugboats.
15:33	TimMc	bitemyapp: Oh good, now I don't feel bad about releasing 5 slightly differing HTML templating libraries!
15:33	TimMc	I will get on that. :-P
15:38	yogthos	TimMc: we definitely have no lack of those ;P
15:49	technomancy	no no no, we need more validation libs
15:50	bitemyapp	TimMc: nice try, but now that Selmer exists, that wound in my soul was healed.
16:10	edw	Ugh, after upgrading packages I get an 'Autoloading failed to define function nrepl-jack-in' error in Emacs; any thoughts?
16:21	pandeiro	edw: i think all the functions got renamed to cider-*?
16:22	edw	Yeah, just noticed that. In upgrade hell right now.
16:24	edw	After doing a refresh of the package list, I see only cider-decompile and cider-tracing at melpa.
16:26	pandeiro	edw: what happens if you package-install nrepl?
16:26	pandeiro	i thought it automatically installs 'cider'
16:28	edw	Ah. Let me check…
16:36	pandeiro	technomancy: tried using a (binding ...) form with in bound to a (PushbackReader. (StringReader. "(System/exit 0)")) but to no effect... Where would that have to be done for the lein repl :connect functions to see it? or am i doing it wrong with the binding somehow?
16:38	technomancy	pandeiro: that was just a guess; possibly reply is being too clever
16:38	technomancy	oh... it's probably accessing the underlying tty directly for jline
16:42	edw	Is some magic necessary to get an unsigned package installed?
16:42	technomancy	pandeiro: probably :eval-in :nrepl is the easiest way to go
16:43	technomancy	edw: there's no signed packages in emacs yet, sadly
16:44	edw	technomancy: When I'm in the package list, typing 'i' doesn't select the package, nor can I M-x package-install it.
16:44	edw	technomancy: cider, that is.
16:44	technomancy	hm; I haven't tried cider yet. does nrepl.el work?
16:45	edw	nrepl is no longer in the package list.
16:45	technomancy	whaaaaat
16:45	technomancy	oh, you're using melpa?
16:45	technomancy	yeah, don't do that
16:46	technomancy	melpa is "just give me whatever's on git master; don't care if it works or whatever"
16:47	llasram	I've noticed a few packages which only host via melpa :-/
16:47	bitemyapp	llasram: that is horrific.
16:47	llasram	Easy enough to manually download when there's no dependencies, but...
16:47	llasram	Yes
16:47	coventry	melpa has actually worked great for me, hasn't triggered a single yak shave. But I am staying away from cider for now. :-)
16:48	technomancy	I wouldn't mind melpa so much except it encourages package authors not to bother with proper stable releases, which is depressing.
16:49	llasram	Or does it encourage package authors to make sure everything which touches `master` is stable?
16:49	llasram	I guess if you're doing the `develop` is rubish, `master` is gold thing, it could work. Ish.
16:49	technomancy	llasram: that's just as annoying
16:50	technomancy	I don't want my dev workflow to be dictated by a third-party site
16:50	llasram	Oh, agreed
16:55	scizo	If I have a lazy seq of strings, is there a simple way to keep the laziness and pass it to java as a Reader?
16:55	scizo	An iostream would work as well.
16:58	llasram	scizo: I don't know of anything off the top of my head. You could probably `proxy` `Reader` relatively easily though
16:58	scizo	llasram: Alright, I'll look into it. Thanks.
17:00	llasram	Actually, `ring` has something in it which translates from a seq of strings to an input stream consuming that seq
17:00	edw	technomancy: The answer seems to be to add melpa and marmalade to package-unsigned-archives and not package-archives.
17:00	llasram	I don't remember how it does, but if you poke around, you should at least have an existing example
17:00	llasram	:scizo
17:00	technomancy	edw: oh, I missed that you are on head emacs
17:01	technomancy	that's cool that they are working on signed packages, but incredibly crappy that they've broken the install instructions for 95% of all elisp packages out there
17:01	scizo	I'll poke around ring for some ideas.
17:01	edw	technomancy: Yes. This was a very new change. My last build was a week or so ago.
17:02	amalloy	llasram, scizo: for InputStream, there's a SequenceInputStream class, which takes a list of InputStreams and produces a concatenation of them. gallingly, no such thing seems to exist for Reader
17:02	technomancy	I guess I should catch up with emacs-devel
17:03	edw	technomancy: Problem solved-ish.
17:04	scizo	amalloy: Where can SequenceInputStream be found?
17:05	coventry	$google java SequenceInputStream
17:05	lazybot	[SequenceInputStream (Java Platform SE 7 ) - Oracle Documentation] http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/io/SequenceInputStream.html
17:05	edw	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/io/SequenceInputStream.html
17:05	edw	Damn, beat me.
17:06	scizo	I was googling poorly
17:06	bitemyapp	I need to start using that bot.
17:20	TimMc	&(= (java.net.URL. "http://brainonfire.net/") (java.net.URL. "http://geohash.info/"))
17:20	lazybot	⇒ false
17:21	TimMc	Oh, it won't demonstrate it here, I guess -- lazybot isn't allowed to make network calls.
17:21	TimMc	Anyhow, I have recently learned that java.net.URL apparently dereferences the host name to decide whether two URLs are equal, based on whether their IP addresses match.
17:22	llasram	TimMc: The old "java.net.URL resolves the URL host in it's hashCode() method" thing?
17:22	TimMc	Yeah...
17:22	TimMc	Sad panda.
17:22	ToxicFrog	user=> (= (java.net.URL. "http://brainonfire.net/") (java.net.URL. "http://geohash.info/"))
17:22	ToxicFrog	true
17:22	ToxicFrog	WHAT
17:22	llasram	It's pretty lolercopters
17:22	ToxicFrog	That's insane
17:22	ToxicFrog	I mean, first of all, those aren't the same URL even if they're both served from the same machine, and secondly, THAT'S INSANE
17:23	llasram	TimMc: I too will one day write a URL! The libraries can go out for beers some evenings
17:23	llasram	er, URL library even
17:24	TimMc	We can arrange playdates!
17:25	TimMc	and give them toys like http://[fe80::1%25eth0]/ to play with
17:26	llasram	As long as they don't start cutting each other on edge cases...
17:26	coventry	TimMc: How do you parse that?
17:27	TimMc	coventry: With great care.
17:27	TimMc	It's an IPv6 hostname with a scope identifier.
17:28	TimMc	The link-local address fe80:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 with scope eth0
17:28	coventry	Interesting. Thanks.
17:28	TimMc	aka fe80::1%eth0, but of course % has to be encoded...
17:29	TimMc	llasram: Actually, a shared test file would be cool.
17:29	coventry	Oh, yuck.
17:29	llasram	TimMc: Well, if I end up doing it, I'll steal yours :-) I do need an ultra-liberal-but-correct URL parser, but not as much as I need other things I'm working on
17:29	TimMc	I don't actually understand how scope IDs are supposed to be used, and there's poor support for them, but... they're there.
17:30	bitemyapp	TimMc: have you tried Frak?
17:30	TimMc	llasram: Urly is pretty good, but make sure to feed it java.net.URL directly to avoid the fixups it does with Strings.
17:31	TimMc	bitemyapp: https://github.com/noprompt/frak ?
17:32	TimMc	In any case, no.
17:39	dobry-den	What's a surrogate for the things Ruby's Eventmachine would be used for? Perhaps sockets + clojure.async?
17:39	llasram	I just call methods on `nil` all over my code
17:39	llasram	Gives me pretty similar results
17:40	amalloy	dobry-den: core.async, or lamina+aleph, as i understand what EM is
17:40	TimMc	llasram: Haha, ouch.
17:40	llasram	Yeah, too mean and unhelpful. Apololgize
17:40	llasram	(inc amalloy)
17:40	lazybot	⇒ 74
17:41	llasram	Man, typing: apologies even
17:47	pandeiro	how do i turn a string into an InputStream ?
17:47	patchwork	Hmm, in brepl (require …) is not defined?
17:47	pandeiro	patchwork: only the :require macro within an ns works
17:48	bitemyapp	llasram: I enjoyed it anyway.
17:49	patchwork	pandeiro: So can I define a ns inside the repl, or just not require anything and refer to all symbols by their full path?
17:49	amalloy	pandeiro: you can do it, but usually you shouldn't because converting from char[] -> byte[] makes it easy to use the wrong string encoding
17:52	pandeiro	reply/launch-repl has a special option called :input-stream, which lein repl :connect binds to System/in for example, but it doesn't accept my (PushbackReader. ...)
17:53	pandeiro	patchwork: yeah this is one of my pet peeves in the brepl too
17:53	bitemyapp	llasram: shouldn't be too haughty about nil errors in Ruby, I get NPEs in Clojure too :)
17:53	pandeiro	you are forced to think in ns
17:53	technomancy	pandeiro: in this case a ByteInputStream on (.getBytes "(System/exit 0")) would be ok
17:53	pandeiro	technomancy: ah great let me try that
17:53	technomancy	not something I'd recommend for general use, but it's OK here
17:53	pandeiro	k
17:54	llasram	bitemyapp: Oh sure, I just had some bad experience with EventMachine :-)
17:57	noonian	i like null pointer exceptions in clojure; it usually just means i'm trying to get something from a map and using the wrong key
17:58	TimMc	amalloy: Eh, just assume everything's in UTF-8, because it damn well should be.
17:59	brehaut	TimMc: my favorite recent mysql thing: which UTF-8 do you want http://mathiasbynens.be/notes/mysql-utf8mb4
18:00	llasram	wat
18:00	bitemyapp	noonian: sigh, usually what happens to me too ;_;
18:00	jjttjj	what's the current reccommeded way to use emacs from windows? cygwin or just emacs for windows
18:01	bitemyapp	llasram: I assume that anybody that says EventMachine or Twisted are good/effective have stockholm syndrome.
18:01	bitemyapp	jjttjj: format C:, install something else.
18:03	jjttjj	bitemyapp: :( I was using ubuntu for the longest time, then went to OSX which I loath worse than windows so I just got a new windows comp
18:03	llasram	jjttjj: Everything should* work just fine natively under windows
18:03	llasram	* Claims not verified
18:03	turbofail	i wouldn't say "everything," but back when i used emacs on windows, most stuff just worked
18:04	bitemyapp	jjttjj: llasram is right, but you should find a way to make yourself happy on Linux just so you're using the same unix tooling as everybody else. (I'm on Mac OS X most of the time recently, but I've used Linux for a long time)
18:04	bitemyapp	jjttjj: plus, package management!
18:04	bitemyapp	apt is my happy place.
18:05	bitemyapp	this test-string might be a bit of a copout: (testing "Can call API" ...)
18:05	bitemyapp	jjttjj: I've used Emacs on Windows before, albeit not for development. Seemed fine. I can't speak to how well nrepl will work.
18:05	bitemyapp	I assume it works because nobody complains about it. But that also might mean nobody is trying it.
18:06	jjttjj	Yeah linux is the best unfortunately I need postage printing software on my main OS
18:07	TimMc	brehaut: Lovely.
18:08	TimMc	jjttjj: Does it run under Wine? :-)
18:08	brehaut	TimMc: but who would ever use higher thingimy utf-9, lets sweep it under the rug. oh wait Emoji
18:08	brehaut	💩
18:08	jjttjj	TimMc: not really brave enough to try
18:08	coventry	If that's the main reason, I would run windows in a VM and call into it for the postage printing.
18:09	TimMc	coventry: If it needs access to the printer, that could get ugly quickly.
18:09	bitemyapp	TimMc: sssshhhh let him be brave
18:10	coventry	I guess I don't know what to compare against, since I don't know how ugly it is to develop on windows.
18:11	coventry	TIL there is a unicode character PILE OF POO.
18:12	brehaut	coventry: unicode also prefers cats over dogs
18:17	bitemyapp	0 failures, 0 errors. Yeaaaahhhhh baby.
18:19	seangrove	bitemyapp: This for a simonides update?
18:24	ndp	TimMc: I sometimes use a Windows VM to drive a small CNC mill via USB - it's not /that/ ugly in VirtualBox.
18:24	bitemyapp	seangrove: 9-5 stuff. Just expanded my API tests.
18:25	bitemyapp	seangrove: it's for a Datomic querying dashboard.
18:45	TimMc	ndp: Oh right. USB makes everything better. :-)
19:18	staafl	ok, total newbie here
19:19	staafl	trying to run a simple example that uses the prxml library
19:19	staafl	can't get leiningen to find it
19:19	technomancy	tanstaafl!
19:20	znDuff	staafl: hmm; it's there in clojars. How are you declaring it?
19:20	staafl	znDuff, http://pastebin.com/gz7ZTUhE
19:20	znDuff	staafl: not pastebin.com, please, it's full of ads.
19:20	staafl	technomancy, of course not
19:20	staafl	znDuff, sorry
19:20	staafl	I'm using an adblocker and hadn't really noticed
19:21	znDuff	(we're somewhat fans of refheap.com, as it's written in Clojure, but anything that's ad-free is fine).
19:21	staafl	gist ok?
19:21	znDuff	sure.
19:21	staafl	https://gist.github.com/staafl/7128171
19:21	staafl	i'll make a point to check refheap out
19:22	znDuff	staafl: it's just [prxml "1.3.1"]
19:22	znDuff	staafl: ...no weissjeffm namespace.
19:22	staafl	znDuff, I saw it from here: https://clojars.org/weissjeffm/clojure.prxml
19:23	znDuff	Hmm. I found it at https://clojars.org/prxml
19:23	znDuff	Ahh.
19:23	znDuff	The weissjeffm version doesn't have a 1.3.1 yet.
19:23	znDuff	...it's quite literally _only_ published as 1.3.0-SNAPSHOT.
19:24	staafl	znDuff, ok, i've changed it to just prxml
19:25	staafl	but "lein run" fails with FNF
19:25	znDuff	staafl: ''lein try prxml 1.3.1'' works for me.
19:25	amalloy	prxml is like super duper old and deprecated. clojure.data.xml contains (afaik) all the prxml features
19:26	staafl	Caused by: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/prx ml__init.class or clojure/contrib/prxml.clj on classpath:
19:26	staafl	i may be missing a step, but i don't know what it is
19:26	znDuff	Ahh.
19:27	znDuff	Not so sure it's still clojure.contrib.
19:27	znDuff	In fact, I'd be surprised if it were.
19:27	znDuff	...huh; I was wrong on that.
19:27	znDuff	(use 'clojure.contrib.prxml) works fine for me given that lein try command.
19:28	znDuff	I'll try with your exact project.clj.
19:28	staafl	znDuff, I appreciate that
19:28	algal	Hello all. I'm wondering about authenticating a ring-based web API endpoint in Clojure. Is there any obvious choice besides cemerick.friend ?
19:29	brehaut	lib-noir might have something
19:30	noonian	i use friend
19:30	gtrak_	friend's the most comprehensive thing
19:30	znDuff	staafl: your src/test/core.clj needs fixing.
19:30	znDuff	staafl: give it a ns declaration, create a foo fn in it, and it's fine.
19:31	algal	Okay, thanks. I'm finding friend a bit hard to dive into. I'm not sure if that's because I'm being thick, or friend is a bit unpolished at this point, or what.
19:31	gtrak_	algal: the examples demos are helpful
19:31	gtrak_	http://friend-demo.herokuapp.com/
19:31	algal	gtrak_: Yes, they are!
19:31	noonian	just googling, theres clj-oauth for oauth and ring-basic-authentication which is a middleware i guess
19:31	staafl	znDuff, I seem to have that
19:32	znDuff	staafl: it's not reflected in your gist, if so.
19:32	staafl	znDuff, https://www.refheap.com/20121
19:32	noonian	algal: my biggest stumbling block using friend was actually a misunderstanding of how routing middleware works, if you use wrap-authorize around compojure GET macro's for instance it will lock down routes declared later, so you either need to use it in a compojure context or just use authorize instead
19:33	staafl	znDuff, am I missing something here? sorry for being such a noob right now, but it's getting late I just want to follow the damn tutorial
19:33	staafl	so any help is highly appreciated
19:34	algal	noonian: Yes, this is part of what's confusing me. I want to apply the same authorization constraints to a set of routes, but evidently the way to do that is not to just wrap handler built from all those routes.
19:34	znDuff	staafl: https://gist.github.com/charles-dyfis-net/7128287
19:35	znDuff	staafl: it's forked from your own earlier gist, so you can ask for the diffs.
19:35	gtrak_	algal: I think it's likely that you're breaking the compojure routing contract, ie each route returns a value or nil.
19:36	gtrak_	if wrap-authorize builds responses that might be alright.
19:37	gtrak_	from the code, it looks like it throws an exception in the bad case.
19:37	gtrak_	something will need to catch it.
19:37	staafl	znDuff, that... worked
19:37	staafl	znDuff, thank you
19:38	staafl	znDuff, could you please explain what happened and where I can look to learn more about this configuration business?
19:39	znDuff	staafl: well, your project.clj was asking to run a function "foo" inside of the tst.core namespace, but you weren't defining a tst.core namespace at all, and didn't have a function called "foo" inside of it either.
19:40	staafl	znDuff, hmm, makes sense
19:40	staafl	serves me right for cargo-culting
19:50	bitemyapp	algal: just write a function.
19:50	bitemyapp	algal: don't use Friend if it doesn't make sense to you.
19:51	algal	bitemyapp: I may end up doing that. It feels like overkill for just enforcing HTTP Basic, but maybe that's because the README.md is a bit unwieldy.
19:57	algal	does anyone happen to know what the largest (e.g., users, traffic, etc.) installation of clojure is to run a web app ?
20:01	znDuff	algal: most of the big uses of Clojure I know of aren't web sites.
20:12	muhoo	a while back i saw a post in one of the clojure blogs, about a clojure library for writing tests backed by phantomjs headless browser. now i can't find it.
20:14	seangrove	muhoo: We use cljsbuild + cljs.test + a small phantom script
20:14	bitemyapp	muhoo: http://engineering.versal.com/testing/2013/03/07/shuttle-js-jvm-testing/ https://github.com/kumarshantanu/clip-test
20:15	muhoo	bitemyapp: it wasn't those, but thanks
20:15	muhoo	seangrove: thanks. it was a specific library, it was very straightforward too.
20:16	bitemyapp	muhoo: https://github.com/dustingetz/cljs-bootstrap
20:16	bitemyapp	muhoo: https://github.com/BirdseyeSoftware/buster-cljs
20:17	muhoo	naw, man. i'm pretty sure it was something i saw on planet.clojure.in. will to peruse its archives and see if i can find it now.
20:18	solussd	muhoo: https://github.com/cemerick/clojurescript.test talks about using phantomjs
20:18	muhoo	shit, stuff scrolls off of that blog :-/
20:19	bitemyapp	Imma bout to get mad. I usually win with the first two guesses.
20:19	muhoo	i. will. find. this. .... and when i do i'll post it here
20:19	bitemyapp	I never miss this hard.
20:19	bitemyapp	I think muhoo is being too picky anyway.
20:19	muhoo	heh, you're mad? i've been trying to remember this for a half hour, looked through my notes.
20:20	bitemyapp	muhoo: lawd. Well if you find it, let us know. Sounds nifty.
20:21	muhoo	https://github.com/xeqi/kerodon
20:21	muhoo	wasn't phantomjs, was ring :-/
20:22	muhoo	so, your suggestions (clojure.test + cljs, shuttle, etc) are what i actually need.
20:22	bitemyapp	way to trick me.
20:23	TEttinger	https://github.com/cemerick/clojurescript.test/ yses phantom
20:24	muhoo	the dsl of kerodon looked very sweet. but in this case, yeah, i'll go with cljs.test or similar, since i need headless browser
20:44	seangrove	dnolen: dbasch and I are playing around with an implmentation of conway's game of life in cljs and canvas, and seeing a huge overhead from gc - curious how you track down these cases?
20:45	seangrove	dnolen: And also, in your experience with chrome, if we're updating a 40x40 matrix every 50ms, should that cause ~7MB of GC every ~80ms? It seems unlikely
20:47	coventry	How do you measure the GC rate? That sounds useful.
20:48	seangrove	coventry: In the dev tools, you can profile over the timeline and see how long/often the GC is running in the frames section
20:48	coventry	seangrove: Thanks.
20:49	seangrove	No worries!
20:49	seangrove	If it gave you more details about what it was GC'ing, it'd be nice though
21:21	`cbp	bitemyapp: hello!
21:22	bitemyapp	`cbp: hai
21:23	`cbp	bitemyapp: I believe I can run 10 out of 10 now :-D, just giving it some finishing touches then ill push
21:29	cldwalker__	muhoo: https://github.com/semperos/clj-webdriver is quite nice for integration testing js apps
21:39	bitemyapp	`cbp: awesome. :)
21:39	bitemyapp	`cbp: I'll probably be looking to get a test harness together and then check for any release-ready finishing touches
21:40	`cbp	itll prolly need a refactoring
21:40	bitemyapp	`cbp: do you mind if I push it to clojars and inform the founder of RethinkDB to add Revise to their client drivers list?
21:40	bitemyapp	when it's ready, that is.
21:40	bitemyapp	`cbp: undoubtedly. Particularly to make it nicely testable. The connection stuff looked messy.
21:40	bitemyapp	Not a big deal though.
21:40	`cbp	that's ok
21:40	`cbp	Yeah i'll change the connection stuff to a deftype at least
21:41	bitemyapp	`cbp: awesome. You're a hero for just going ahead and writing the entire library :)
21:41	`cbp	heh it was not easy
21:41	`cbp	I was basing it on the python/ruby drivers and that was a mistake
21:41	`cbp	had to redesign a couple of times :P
21:42	bitemyapp	heh. That means a lot of learning happened.
21:43	bitemyapp	`cbp: I don't think the connection needs to be a deftype though, couldn't it just be a map or a record?
21:43	`cbp	yeah im not very sure how to handle that
21:43	bitemyapp	`cbp: np, I'll take a look.
21:43	`cbp	and make it thread safe
21:44	bitemyapp	I can help with that too.
21:45	`cbp	yeah 10 out of 10
21:45	`cbp	you can basically just run all of the commands in there and it should work
21:45	`cbp	(pushed now)
21:46	`cbp	https://github.com/bitemyapp/revise/blob/master/src/bitemyapp/revise/core.clj#L23
21:47	bitemyapp	`cbp: thooooose can be test cases :P
21:47	bitemyapp	I like the way the API composes. Seems nice.
21:47	`cbp	yeah the only bad part is all the r/
21:47	bitemyapp	`cbp: macros >:)
21:48	`cbp	But I guess we can always just add a helper macro or something
21:48	bitemyapp	I'm waiting on that though. yeah.
21:48	`cbp	yeah
21:48	bitemyapp	`cbp: I'm heading home, I'll check in with you later.
21:48	`cbp	bye
21:52	xeqi	muhoo, bitemyapp: I think you can run clj-webdriver with a phantomjs browser backing
21:53	xeqi	http://blog.zolotko.me/2012/12/clojure-selenium-webdriver-and-phantomjs.html
22:12	lrenn	when using :refer, with refer, what's the difference between putting the symbols in a list vs a vector? I see both used. Have I been missing something?
22:12	lrenn	with require*
22:18	coventry	lrenn: It shouldn't make any difference.
22:18	cespare	I usually see a vector.
22:20	dobry-den	is there any drawback to this num->hex function that return hex-string for any number by using biginteger? https://www.refheap.com/20126
22:21	dobry-den	besides being slow
22:25	llasram	dobry-den: Aside from there being a more obvious way to do it?
22:31	dobry-den	llasram: what's the obvious way
22:33	dobry-den	bring it on smartguy. got something to say?
22:33	dobry-den	jk
22:33	llasram	haha
22:34	llasram	You know, `bit-or` with 0xff, then `bit-shift-right` by 8. Rinse, repeate
22:34	llasram	repeat even
22:34	llasram	er, bit-and even
22:35	llasram	I need to mix in some "odd"s, just for variety
22:35	dobry-den	i guess i should finally look up how bit shift works
22:35	llasram	You know what, actually your way might be best
22:36	llasram	I just remembered that the `bit-`* operations are not (yet?) defined for BigInt{,eger}s
22:36	llasram	So your way will actually work for any integral input
22:36	llasram	Whereas my way is in practice no better than just using (format "%x" number)
22:37	llasram	Oh, which may also be an option for you: ##(format "%x" 123456)
22:37	lazybot	⇒ "1e240"
22:38	dobry-den	dang, this is easy
22:38	dobry-den	that
22:39	llasram	Ok :-) Keep in mind that it won't work for anything too big for a `long`, if that matters
22:39	llasram	,(format "%x" 123N)
22:39	clojurebot	#<IllegalFormatConversionException java.util.IllegalFormatConversionException: x != clojure.lang.BigInt>
22:40	dobry-den	seems to work for bigintegers though
22:40	llasram	really?
22:40	llasram	Huh
22:40	llasram	You're right
22:40	llasram	Cool
22:40	llasram	You learn something new every day!
22:59	lrenn	coventry: i've seen both used. Sometimes in the same project. Is there an "official" way?
23:05	bitemyapp	arrdem: recover your damn computer.
23:05	arrdem	Anyone use literate programming beyond lein-marg?
23:05	bitemyapp	marginalia is the main one
23:05	tbaldridge	arrdem: my code is self-documenting
23:05	bitemyapp	I think I prefer codox (less literate)
23:06	tbaldridge	arrdem: :-P
23:06	bitemyapp	says the author of the go macro. Right.
23:06	arrdem	the sarcasm is string with this one (tbaldridge)
23:17	pandeiro	muhoo: casperjs?
23:22	ToBeReplaced	Raynes: feel free to PM if you have any questions re: my fs PR when you get around to it
23:35	gfredericks	has anybody written a version of with-redefs for testing that does thread-local stuff, via tricks?
23:40	gfredericks	(to allow parallelized tests)