#clojure – 2013-10-02

2013-10-02

00:13	akurilin	Yeah, connecting to the same nrepl as my server actually allows me to edit the thing's state without necessarily relying on lein ring's auto-reload
00:14	akurilin	and now I actually know what the heck people talk about when they say state can get fubarred.
00:14	akurilin	Next step I guess is to use Stuart Sierra's approach.
00:15	logic_prog	yeah
00:15	logic_prog	I think people should not be allowed to use clojure unless they've read what Rich Hickey / Sauart Sierra have written
00:15	logic_prog	would have saved me much more time
00:15	logic_prog	instead of bumbling around
00:16	akurilin	Well I can tell you that whatever Stuart Sierra wrote made absolutely no sense to me at first.
00:16	akurilin	Took a bit to be able to relate at least a bit.
00:16	logic_prog	it's like the matrix
00:16	logic_prog	what do you mean a function that recreates a full state?
00:16	akurilin	What did Hickey write on the subject btw?
00:16	logic_prog	I was referring mostly to his tech talks
00:17	ddellacosta	akurilin: I interpreted that as a more general statement on what Rich Hickey has publicly said, in talks and whatnot
00:17	ddellacosta	right
00:17	akurilin	okie dokie
00:17	logic_prog	ddellacosta: stop reading my mind
00:17	ddellacosta	logic_prog: heh
00:18	akurilin	Supposedly tools.trace is also supposed to blow my mind once I grok it
00:18	akurilin	Every day is Christmas in Clojure land.
00:18	logic_prog	(refresh) is awesome
00:19	logic_prog	Hickey, Sierra, and Techomancy = 3 wise men? :-D
00:20	SegFaultAX	I'm unclear on Sierra's approach when it comes to the production system. At some point you still need a couple of globals for the top level system state.
00:21	tbaldrid_	SegFaultAX: yep, but it's all in one place (an atom perhaps) instead of 20,000 places all in different namespaces
00:21	ddellacosta	SegFaultAX: I didn't think he was eschewing all use of globals, just minimizing them to manage complexity
00:22	Raynes	logic_prog: Well, I've been doing this for like 5 years and I don't even know what " a function that recreates a full state" is without context. :p
00:22	ddellacosta	er, what tbaldrid_ sez
00:22	SegFaultAX	Well yea, I guess his focus was also more on the development side of things anyway.
00:26	technomancy	Raynes: pretty much
00:26	akurilin	So "wrap-" is the unwritten convention for middleware naming as per weavejester's libraries?
00:27	SegFaultAX	Well it describes what is logically occuring.
00:29	bitemyapp	akurilin: c.t.t is a good idea.
00:33	akurilin	bitemyapp, my understanding is that tracing functions is where most of the bang is for the library?
00:35	bitemyapp	akurilin: da
00:35	bja	is there some way that lein classpath might not be telling me the whole truth in terms of what I'm actually including?
00:35	bja	asking because it seems to claim I only have tools.reader 0.7.8 yet it is obviously finding an earlier version to load up the interface for
00:36	technomancy	bja: someone just reported that earlier; haven't gotten a chance to investigate
00:36	technomancy	lein issue 1337
00:36	akurilin	btw totally appreciate you trying to beat loving middleware into my thick skull. Makes stuff so much nicer.
00:37	technomancy	bitemyapp: is http://simonides.clojurecup.com/dashboard/feed supposed to be live?
00:38	bja	technomancy: thanks. short term solution for me is to patch clj-http I guess
00:38	technomancy	yeah, if you can get it to work with the latest version that's obviously the best
00:38	technomancy	why does an HTTP client need a reader though?
00:39	bja	technomancy: uses it for reading/sending EDN
00:40	bja	(at least that's my guess. it magically knows how to handle EDN)
00:40	technomancy	huh; is it really that much work to do your own serialization?
00:41	bja	technomancy: well. not really. it's just built into the library. And as long as the version bump doesn't break clj-http, it seems less effort to decouple tools.reader vs incrementing the dependency version
00:41	bja	err
00:41	bja	I said that backwards.
00:41	akurilin	Can you no longer sign up for Mozilla Persona?
00:42	akurilin	Wanted to log into refheap.
00:45	akurilin	Nvm, their help docs are out of date. Also usability... oh well.
00:45	technomancy	akurilin: the account confirmation was broken when I tried it yesterday for a clojurecup entry
00:46	bitemyapp	technomancy: I'm expert level at avoiding saying "complected" since having to explain things to coworkers often lately.
00:46	technomancy	bitemyapp: teach me your ways
00:46	akurilin	My current word to avoid is "conflated"
00:46	boccato	hello
00:46	akurilin	You guys take conflated, I use complected.
00:47	technomancy	I like conflated, but I think "coupled" does the job for this
00:47	clojurebot	Huh?
00:47	boccato	what is a good book to learn clojure for someone with some experience in common lisp?
00:47	bitemyapp	technomancy: conflated, coupled, complicated/mutual complication, tangled together
00:47	bitemyapp	boccato: Clojure Programming
00:51	technomancy	I think of conflated as "using one term to mean multiple things"
00:52	bitemyapp	technomancy: th
00:52	bitemyapp	technomancy: that's more precise, but it can be a conflation or terms of concepts
00:52	bitemyapp	an incorrect "collapsing together" rather than a braiding of things that can be separate.
00:52	technomancy	I think you accidentally a M-t twice?
00:54	boccato	bitemyapp: thats the one by Emerick, right? what about "the joy of clojure"?
00:55	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/pull/1324 <- anyone familiar with pom structure care to chime in on this issue?
00:57	muhoo	avoiding saying complected is easy. avoiding doing it, well...
01:09	bitemyapp	boccato: read Clojure Programming
01:13	mullr	technomancy: As you say, a more general 'add this stuff to the XML' facility would be far more useful (i.e. useful at all)
01:16	mullr	boccato: watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPNkH-7PRTk
01:29	lgs32a	For the interested: I spent the night writing a microlib to manage state event-driven in small nodes using async channels: https://github.com/lgrapenthin/state-node . Feedback very welcome.
01:48	BlankVerse	(sel (matrix (range 9) 3) :filter #(> (sum %) 15))
01:48	BlankVerse	shouldn;t it return the rows whose sum is > 15
01:50	lgs32a	BlankVerse: what matrix are you using
01:50	BlankVerse	incanter?
01:51	lgs32a	ah ofc
01:57	BlankVerse	it looks as if filter function is noop
01:57	lgs32a	BlankVerse: it does not seem like it invokes the filter-fn at all
01:57	BlankVerse	ya
01:57	BlankVerse	, what to do?
01:57	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: what in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
01:58	lgs32a	BlankVerse: try passing a number as filter-fn, will not complain
01:59	lgs32a	BlankVerse: cast ur matrix using to-dataset
01:59	lgs32a	BlankVerse: seems to work in my repl
02:18	akurilin	Note to self: redact passwords if logging request params, bcypt doesn't save you here..
02:18	bitemyapp	akurilin: good call
02:19	bitemyapp	akurilin: that's sorta why I didn't plan on blackwater being used outside of development...
02:34	yedi	anyone feel like helping me with my problems getting ansible up and running
02:38	TEttinger	yedi: ansible?
02:38	yedi	yea
02:38	TEttinger	are you on windows?
02:39	TEttinger	https://github.com/ansible/ansible this?
02:39	TEttinger	I thought it was an ANSI formatting lib, which wouldn't work on windows. sadly console libs are more my area of expertise
02:42	TEttinger	have you tried #ansible ?
02:45	akurilin	bitemyapp, that's fair. We have some regulations too here, namely COPPA. The prob though is that if you're on our box, you already access to everything but the cleartext passwords.
02:46	akurilin	So there's only so much that sanitizing log PII would gain you.
02:48	akurilin	but I imagine people out there like to move / store / analyze their prod logs outside of the server box's disk, unlike us starving startup :P
02:48	sm0ke	Is it sane to (swap!) another atom when you are inside the body of one atoms (swap!) argument function?
02:50	sm0ke	is it a common thing to do?
02:51	akurilin	bbl
02:52	yedi	TEttinger: i've tried #ansible, it's a ghosttown right now
02:53	yedi	i'm trying to get ansible to work with my vagrant vm, but i have no idea what i'm doing
02:53	TEttinger	I have no idea either
02:53	yedi	ansible's ping returns https://gist.github.com/yedi/6789630
02:54	TEttinger	the fanciest server admin I have done was on sun netra x1 servers with a 600 MHz SPARC processor
02:55	yedi	ugh, it's been really difficult trying to learn sysadmin / devops
02:59	ivan	yedi: does /Users/yedianyansi/.ssh/id_rsa exist and have permission 0600?
03:00	yedi	ivan: yes indeed
03:04	ivan	oh, I didn't realize that message was not an error
03:05	ivan	yedi: it looks like an SSH client is timing out, does this happen when you `ssh` into the host yourself?
03:12	yedi	ivan: so i'm getting a new error now, https://gist.github.com/yedi/6789630
03:13	yedi	i decided to use private network for the vm instead, and i seem to be able to ssh into it ok, but for some reason ansible has an issue
03:13	ivan	yedi: it looks like you're trying to connect to a host that isn't accepting your key, so it's asking for a password, and ansible doesn't like that
03:13	ivan	is your public key in the remote's authorized_keys?
03:15	yedi	i don't believe so, i don;t remember doing anything like that
03:16	ivan	you can send it over with ssh-copy-id
03:17	ivan	(just once, I mean; it'll append to ~/.ssh/authorized_keys)
03:21	yedi	ivan: sweeet, it worked
03:21	yedi	thanks so very much
03:21	ivan	cool
03:31	BlankVerse	I have a misclassify function which filters to either all or emptyhttps://gist.github.com/pankajmore/6789961
03:32	BlankVerse	but it should somtimes give a proper subset also
04:01	muhoo	sysadmin/ops stuff i find easy, but what makes it hard is all the automation people wrap around it that obfuscates what's really goign on, sometimes
04:03	utkarsh	what's the best way to "change" some keys of a map, if they exist? e.g., I have {:a 10, :b 20} and I want to change :a to :x and :c to :z, so I should get {:x 10, :b 20}
04:05	noidi	utkarsh, clojure.set/rename-keys
04:05	ta479	how are you supposed to know what types a function takes and outputs without any compiler information?
04:06	utkarsh	noidi: perfect, thanks!
04:08	muhoo	ta479: the doc string usually tells you. but clojure isn't typed and many functions can accept many diffferent types
04:09	ta479	and if there is no doc string?
04:09	muhoo	then the source, i guess
04:09	ta479	or if the doc string is incorrect
04:09	muhoo	ta479: what function are you trying to get a docstring for?
04:10	ta479	I'm speaking hypothetically
04:10	ta479	does clojure.typed provide documentation generation of types?
04:10	muhoo	i dunno, but if you want strongly-typed clojure, that's the place to get it
04:11	muhoo	https://github.com/clojure/core.typed
04:11	ta479	:( relying on a docstring feels like such a turn off for me
04:11	clgv	ta479:in the namespaces shipped with clojure there are docstrings on the public functions
04:12	clgv	ta479: well, it is dynamically typed.
04:13	clgv	ta479: when you come from typed OOP languages then you have to get used to it.
04:13	muhoo	or from haskell, i bet
04:14	clgv	muhoo: hehe, or that. I just chose main stream for higher success probability ;)
04:16	ta479	I'm trying to decide on whether I should learn scala or clojure. Clojure looks simpler, readable, elegant but scala has a type system
04:16	ro_st	ta479: do you need a type system for the problem domains you'll work in?
04:17	ro_st	nice thing about clojure is you can go dynamic until you need types, and then use core.typed for the area that needs types. gradually typed ftw :-)
04:17	ta479	I don't think type systems are necessary to be turing complete
04:18	ta479	I just think it would be easier for the compiler to catch mistakes of me using the wrong types or generating docs
04:18	ta479	it's just convenience really
04:18	CoconutCrab	(and optimization)
04:19	clgv	ta479: what is your background? coming from c++, delphi, java I overrated the type system as well in the beginning
04:19	ta479	java, C++, some haskell
04:19	ro_st	is it convenient to declare type information 100% of the time to catch that class of errors some of the time?
04:19	clgv	ta479: and you certainly underestimate the influence of developing on the REPL
04:20	ro_st	yup. interactive dev cuts out a lot of the churn. fast feedback helps tremendously
04:20	l3dx	I saw a talk recently where the dude had done some research on type errors. On github, of issues listed for projects using dynamicly typed languages, only 1% are type errors.
04:20	l3dx	quite interesting
04:24	clgv	ta479: you definitely have to shift from coding a big bunch of functionality without trying it out when you use clojure. but with the repl and the functional programming paradigm it is so easy to try out small bits of your implementation
04:25	ro_st	in fact, it's preferred. you develop bottom-up, building the bits and then composing bigger and bigger bits until you have a working system
05:01	kaw	l3dx: Sounds very interesting, is that online somewhere?
05:12	l3dx	kaw: https://vimeo.com/74354480
05:25	ddellacosta	ta479: there is also a lot of activity lately on the typed clojure front. Some stuff to check out: http://frenchy64.github.io http://adambard.com/blog/core-typed-vs-haskell
05:26	turbopape	Hi there, I have a pretty "strange" question...
05:27	ddellacosta	turbopape: definitely, it's 42
05:27	turbopape	Why is the vast majority of Clojure projects, including Clojure Itself
05:27	turbopape	licensed under eclipse ?
05:27	turbopape	ddellacosta, 42 ?
05:28	turbopape	I mean, even lein default projects are EPL ...
05:28	turbopape	why is that ?
05:28	ddellacosta	turbopape: nevermind, joke. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/fCwLL9EnoI4
05:28	ddellacosta	turbopape: and, linked from there: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/TuojEIsu1G4
05:28	turbopape	ddellacosta, I got it it was a joke dude :) but wanted to understand it :)
05:28	turbopape	excus my n00bness :)
05:29	ddellacosta	turbopape: ah, sorry--no, that was a Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy joke. :-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42_(number)#The_Hitchhiker.27s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy
05:29	kaw	l3dx: Thanks, I'll check it out later
05:30	ddellacosta	turbopape: I was taking advantage of the pause between you stating you had a question, and asking a question to be a smarts.
05:30	ddellacosta	*smartass
05:31	turbopape	:) No, actually, If I ask, is to become smarter, actually, not the other way around :)
05:33	turbopape	and sorry ddellacosta, it is definitely not 42 :)
05:33	ddellacosta	turbopape: yes, of course. ;-)
05:34	turbopape	:)
05:34	ddellacosta	clgv: that would be awesome.
05:34	clgv	ddellacosta: damn there is no literal 42 there
05:35	ddellacosta	turbopape: to clarify, I meant, I was being a smartass…I missed a comma in there ("I was taking advantage of the pause between you stating you had a question, and asking a question, to be a smartass")
05:35	ddellacosta	but, now I've really killed the joke dead.
05:36	ddellacosta	clgv: yah, well, what are ya gonna do. Clearly we don't know what the question was in the first place
05:36	turbopape	Actually, I liked it too, and I learned two things in the process. That made my day :)
05:36	ddellacosta	excellent. :-)
05:38	clgv	adding up all digits didnt work either ;)
05:39	clgv	it didn't even sum up to 23 :(
05:42	yedi	lein uberjar is creating jars without a manifest file, from my research, I found out that -main needs to be defined in order to the uberjar to have the manifest set
05:42	yedi	how would I go about converting this compojure webapp to using a -main function as it's entry point? https://gist.github.com/yedi/6791051
05:45	clgv	yedi: you usually need to start an embedded server such as jetty yourself
05:47	clgv	yedi: with [ring.adapter.jetty :as jetty] you can use (jetty/run-jetty routes option-map)
05:53	dobry-den	yedi: https://gist.github.com/yedi/6791051#comment-920291
05:54	clgv	dobry-den: wow, all-round service ;)
05:56	dobry-den	haha
05:56	dobry-den	that kind of stuff is annoying til you've done it your first time
05:56	yedi	dorby-den && clgv: thanks a lot
05:56	yedi	so it seems lein ring server no longer works when i try that: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Keyword
05:57	yedi	(dobry-den: been doing sysadmin/ops stuff all night and it really really really sucks for a first timer)
05:57	dobry-den	yedi: post the problem line. it's just a bad form
05:58	dobry-den	prob've got a :abc instead of [:abc]
06:00	dobry-den	i dont know if :aot is necessary there
06:05	yedi	dobry-den: updated: https://gist.github.com/yedi/6791051
06:05	yedi	not sure how to find the problematic line
06:06	dobry-den	oh
06:06	dobry-den	:gen-class to (:gen-class)
06:06	dobry-den	yeah neither do i
06:07	dobry-den	i have yet to arrive at a strategy for parsing java stack traces
06:10	dobry-den	god forbid you have to read one in a tmux window. painstakingly arrowkey your ass to the top
06:19	dobry-den	yedi: I think you generally want the handler/site middleware to wrap the other middleware
06:19	yedi	what do you mean?
06:20	dobry-den	hander/site does a lot of helpful things to the request map, so if the request hits it first, your other middleware get the result
06:21	dobry-den	in other words it would come last in the (def app (-> app-routes ... handler/site)) usually unless you have a middleware that needs the request before it
06:21	yedi	right
06:23	yedi	currently dealing with differences in how lein ring server runs my app, and just running the uberjar. The uberjar can't seem to find the db i want to connect to
06:27	dobry-den	what database are you using
06:31	yedi	i think i know what the issue is, I pass in some jvm args by setting jvm-opts in my project.clj, obviously running the server without lein won't leverage those
06:31	yedi	how do you set jvm arguments when just running normal java -jar
06:31	dobry-den	well you can just pass em in. java -Xmx1g -jar _.jar
06:33	yedi	thats what i thought but
06:33	dobry-den	im no sysadmin guru but i just have a boot script that i commit in my project's repo that Upstart or Capistrano/Mina will read
06:34	dobry-den	that has whatever magical java incantation i use for that proj
06:38	yedi	dobry-den: got it to work, i was setting those opts after setting -jar, so it thought they were args to my program. (plus, I forgot to prepend the args with "D" since you need to do that to set systemProperties)
06:38	vmarcinko	hi, noob question here ... I have a collection of elements on which I have to do some side-effecting function...So, i can most easily do that using doseq: (doseq [x coll] (do-some-side-effecton-x x))
06:38	dobry-den	ahh
06:39	vmarcinko	but I have a need that in case this side-effect function raised exception, i need to perform some other side-ffect function on all elements that have pased successfuly before the exception was raised
06:39	vmarcinko	in other words
06:40	vmarcinko	(doseq [x coll] (try (do-some-side-effecton-x x) (catch Throwable th (do-some-other-side-effect successful-elements-coll))
06:40	dobry-den	vmarcinko: could drop processed items in a collection that will get processed on exception
06:41	vmarcinko	dobry-den: yeah, that's my question - do you have some idea how to collect these processed items? are we talking about some reduce here, or loop-recurd then?
06:42	vmarcinko	in mutable/imperative languages I know how to do it, but im stil lfresh in clojrue so...
06:42	dobry-den	vmarcinko: yeah, off the top of my head you could do it with loop/recur.
06:43	dobry-den	(loop [unprocessed things, processed []] ...)
06:44	vmarcinko	yeah, i need some construct that allows me to "accumulate" while looping...and i knowin general that reduce is accumulator, and that it should be preferred instead of loop/recur whenever possible, but i guess its not always feasible
06:45	dobry-den	i dont know about "whenever possible"
06:46	dobry-den	loop/recur is just clojure's "low level" loop. sometimes it's more clear to break things apart in a loop/recur imo
06:48	vmarcinko	i looked at docs, and (take-while pred coll) seemed as a way to go maybe, its just that it says predicate should be side-effect free, so I dunno if I will break something if I put for predicate some fucntion that does side-effect and returns false when exception occured
06:49	dobry-den	vmarcinko: https://gist.github.com/danneu/6791614
06:50	vmarcinko	dobry-den: thanx a bunch
06:55	Jarda	anyone with expeirence of core.async here? I would need feedback regarding https://gist.github.com/nnarhinen/6786086
07:11	dobry-den	Jarda: i think it becomes easier to think about if that (go ...) at the bottom is wrapped with a (defn start-process [...]) and you pass in its starting state as args
07:14	dobry-den	i dont have much experience but it might be easier to reason about if, for instnace, that hashchange-chan def is instead a channel initializer that you feed into a start-process mechanism instead of a global var
07:19	BlankVerse	how do i rebind vars in a while loop?
07:20	Jarda	dobry-den: thanks
07:22	llasram	BlankVerse: In an abstract-loop, or in a `loop`?
07:23	BlankVerse	(while (> Y 0) .... )
07:23	BlankVerse	where Y is being rebound
07:23	BlankVerse	inside
07:23	BlankVerse	making Y constant in while
07:24	s4muel	,(doc loop)
07:24	clojurebot	"([bindings & body]); Evaluates the exprs in a lexical context in which the symbols in the binding-forms are bound to their respective init-exprs or parts therein. Acts as a recur target."
07:24	llasram	BlankVerse: You use `loop`, which "rebinds" via recursion. Although in practice you usually actually structure your problem to use `reduce` instead
08:38	ddellacosta	not really clojure specific, but how can I get a lquery working with postgres via JDBC (c.j.j)? I have a PGobject with type lquery, but it's just not giving me the same results I get in the console.
08:51	ivan	never add 'build' to your IDEA -> File Types -> Ignore files and folders, if you ever want to build La Clojure (it's got a build.ClojureBuilder)
09:29	borkdude	why is (seq? [1 2 3]) false?
09:30	`cbp	borkdude: because seq is another kind of data structure.
09:30	`cbp	borkdude: you can use sequential? on vectors and other such things
09:36	borkdude	maybe coll? is more what I want then
09:37	mdrogalis	borkdude: Typically, yes.
09:39	borkdude	mdrogalis btw I still haven't got an answer on my datomic mailing list question
09:40	mdrogalis	Which question was that, borkdude?
09:40	borkdude	mdrogalis about being able to copy the data files of free storage at any time
09:43	mdrogalis	borkdude: Why don't you get the value of the database you want, then make a back up of that?
09:43	mdrogalis	You can use those back ups for testing.
09:43	borkdude	mdrogalis yes, but the question was, does datomic flush immedially or periodically
09:44	borkdude	mdrogalis after transacting
09:44	mdrogalis	Shrug I'd just avoid it and try something different. I don't know.
09:54	borkdude	I wish I would have some kind of static check to see if some function would always be called with a collection and never with a single thing
09:54	borkdude	o no, (coll? {:a 1}) => true
09:55	borkdude	ehm, I want a function that returns true for only sequences and vectors
09:55	rkneufeld	borkdude: I'm not sure what context you mean, but couldn't you use seq?
09:55	borkdude	rkneufeld that's what I used, but it returns false for vectors
09:56	borkdude	probably sequential? then
10:17	Morgawr	mm... I fixed my problem (it seems) at last... a question, how does clojure store objects in sets? Does it call the hashCode() function of the object?
10:18	opqdonut	Morgawr: there are both hash-sets and tree-sets
10:18	hyPiRion	Morgawr: it's commonly a hash set, yes
10:18	opqdonut	which correspond roughly to javas HashSet and TreeSet
10:18	opqdonut	,(class #{:a :b :c})
10:18	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet
10:18	mdrogalis	Is there a way to go from a clj data structure to an iterator?
10:18	opqdonut	,(class (tree-set #{:a :b :c}))
10:18	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: tree-set in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
10:19	mdrogalis	The reverse of iterator-seq
10:19	opqdonut	oh, hmm, I wonder what the function was
10:19	llasram	opqdonut: `sorted-set`
10:19	hyPiRion	mdrogalis: (.iterator #{:a :b :c}) ?
10:19	mdrogalis	hyPiRion: Bingo. Thank you!
10:19	hyPiRion	All the Clojure-collections implement the interfaces, so you can just use them
10:19	opqdonut	llasram: right
10:20	opqdonut	,(class (sorted-set #{:a :b :c}))
10:20	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentTreeSet
10:20	Morgawr	any reason why doing stuff like (conj myset object) is different from doing (conj myset (.hashCode object)) ?
10:20	hyPiRion	e.g. ##(supers (class #{:a :b :c}))
10:20	lazybot	⇒ #{clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection clojure.lang.IObj clojure.lang.Seqable clojure.lang.APersistentSet clojure.lang.IPersistentSet clojure.lang.IEditableCollection clojure.lang.AFn java.lang.Object clojure.lang.Counted java.lang.Runnable clojure.lang.IFn java.io.Ser... https://www.refheap.com/19241
10:20	opqdonut	Morgawr: in the first case you are adding the object, in the second case the hashcode
10:20	Morgawr	yes but
10:20	opqdonut	,(conj #{"x"} (.hashCode "abc"))
10:20	clojurebot	#{96354 "x"}
10:20	llasram	Morgawr: Because one adds teh object and one adds whatever the integer hashcode is...?
10:20	Morgawr	In my algorithm I had the bug where I was just testing the hashCode in the set and apparently on very very very large number of hashcodes the set had collisions
10:20	opqdonut	,(conj #{"x"} "abc")
10:20	clojurebot	#{"abc" "x"}
10:21	Morgawr	isn't the "conj" operation in the set storing the actual hashCode of the object as hash?
10:21	hyPiRion	Morgawr: no
10:21	Morgawr	it's storing the object + lookup for the hashcode, yes?
10:21	Morgawr	and hashcodes may collide?
10:22	hyPiRion	It uses the hashCode to avoid collisions, and when it finds the object(s), check for equality
10:22	Morgawr	ah okay
10:22	Morgawr	this makes sense then
10:22	Morgawr	I see what my problem was, derp
10:22	Morgawr	thanks for clarifying this
10:24	Morgawr	now, onto the next question... I have something like 5-10 futures spawned and I want to find out the first one that returns, how do I make sure I return as soon as one of them returns instead of having to wait for all of them?
10:25	llasram	Sounds like you want a queue, or maybe a promise, depending on what you intend to do w/ the results of the other futures
10:25	Morgawr	mmm.. basically I have these futures and want to return as soon as one of them returns true (doesn't matter who) and if none of them returns true then I wait till they all return false
10:26	Morgawr	I was thinking about a promise... yeah
11:09	dublindan	Hey, I'm starting a new web project and am trying to decide between using enlive or laser for templating - any recommendations?
11:09	dublindan	Also, does anyone know if laser has the equivalent of enlive's auto-reload?
11:20	Morgawr	I can't figure out how to elegantly listen on multiple futures and return as soon as one of them returns
11:20	seangrov`	Morgawr: core.async and alt! ?
11:20	Morgawr	even if I make a single promise shared by all futures, if that promise returns false I need to reset it and re-listen on it (I want the first future that returns true)
11:20	Morgawr	I'm not going to use core.async
11:20	seangrov`	Well, good luck then
11:20	seangrov`	Just a tab in the dark
11:20	seangrov`	stab*
11:22	seangrov`	Is there some tool to print out all of the compojure routes in an app, a la rails' `rake routes` or django's `show_urls`?
11:23	tbaldrid_	Morgawr: care to expound? This is exactly that core.async was designed for.
11:26	klrr	anyone know if there are practical use-cases of monads in a non-pure functional language?
11:27	Morgawr	tbaldridge: I'm just implementing a small clojure test inside a java application and it's very self-contained, don't want to add external dependencies (it's just a personal test, nothing fancy and it's definitely not the best way of doing it, I am aware of that)
11:28	Morgawr	anyhow I found a solution, I just have a shared promise and as soon as some thread returns I check that promise, if it's false I reset until it's true or until all threads have returned
11:28	Morgawr	and it's working fine atm
11:29	mdrogalis	Morgawr: I tried to do something like that before core.async came out. I had a race condition where in the window of time when the promise was being reset, the thing I was waiting for happened.
11:29	mdrogalis	It was a real B >_>
11:29	tbaldridge	Morgawr: what happens if the 2nd future completes before you check the promise?
11:30	Morgawr	mdrogalis: if you deliver to a promise that has been realized already it throws an exception, I capture that exception and try again until the promise has not been delivered by other threads.. and in the main thread I just deref the promise and wait, as soon as it's deref'd I check and if necessary I reset it (So the next thread can deliver)
11:30	mdrogalis	I'm dizzy just reading that - but whatever works for you :o
11:31	Morgawr	tbaldridge: there are N futures and I wait for the first one to realize the promise, all the others that realize the promise at "the same time" will throw the exception and will keep throwing it until the promise is reset so there should be no contention
11:31	boodle	Hi all, I v.new to macros (and awful!), can you tell me how I might go about solving this? https://www.refheap.com/19251
11:31	llasram	Morgawr: Huh, what version of Clojure are you using? IIRC the current version doesn't actually throw
11:32	Morgawr	llasram: I'm using 1.5
11:32	Morgawr	and seriously? It doesn't throw?
11:32	llasram	Anyway, easy-peasy: just have the futures not deliver non-truthy values. Then have a final future which waits on the others and delivers false
11:32	ToxicFrog	boodle: I think the question needs more context. How would this be used? What would you want the macro to look like?
11:33	Morgawr	llasram: mmm.. this might be a nice idea
11:33	boodle	ToxicFrog: well I'm only mentioning macros because I think it may be needed but all I want to actually do is use the ':fieldname' value within the map defn (in the ':val' assignment)
11:34	mdrogalis	Anyone know of a Websocket client that I can run server-side? Aleph might do it, but I can't find any examples.
11:34	Morgawr	llasram: looks like the latest version of clojure actually returns "nil" upon delivery of an already realized promise
11:34	Morgawr	so I can just test on that
11:35	Morgawr	instead of the exception
11:35	Morgawr	no big deal
11:35	Morgawr	(and much cleaner imo, no need to spawn additional threads)
11:35	ToxicFrog	Like, (defmacro foo [fieldname] `{ :fieldname ~fieldname :val ~(do-something-with fieldname) }) or thereabouts? (disclaimer: not tested, my macros are rusty)
11:35	tbaldridge	Morgawr: yeah, I'm not sure why, but I can't get (deliver p val) to ever throw an exception.
11:35	tbaldridge	in 1.4 or 1.5.1
11:36	Morgawr	in repl I did (def a (promise)) (deliver a 4) (deliver a 3)
11:36	boodle	ToxicFrog: probably, will try it out, ty
11:36	Morgawr	(deliver a 4) returns the promise
11:36	Morgawr	(deliver a 3) and subsequient calls return nil
11:36	Morgawr	so it's fine
11:36	`cbp	boodle: why does a function not work?
11:37	Morgawr	can't wait to test this algorithm on a 48-core machine and see how it performs
11:38	boodle	`cbp: well I'm defining an array of maps and want to simplify my ':val' defns.. happy to use fn's if that's do-able.. not sure how
11:39	`cbp	boodle: when you say defns you mean definitions or clojure's defn?
11:40	`cbp	boodle: if you wanna use the same value on multiple places just use a local binding. But I'm still not sure what you really want.
11:40	boodle	`cbp: definitions.. what I really mean is where I assign a value to ':val'. If I could do something like ':val (get record ~fieldname)'
11:41	Morgawr	bitemyapp: I forgot tell you the reason why my algorithm wasn't working. Turns out I was erroneously saving the hashCode() of the object in a set instead of the object itself and that created collisions. Now it works properly :)
11:42	`cbp	boodle: like (defn make-map [fieldname] {:fieldname fieldname :val (get record fieldname)}) ?
11:43	boodle	`cbp: I can't really use of function I think because some of my map entries have other varying key/val pairs and some don't have ':vals' etc.
11:44	boodle	`cbp: but maybe with '& otherargs' in the parameter I could... ty
11:46	boodle	`cbp: I was trying to learn about the reader and if I could refer to a map key's value within the map's definition.. looks like I should just go up with another function like you suggested.. no biggie
11:48	`cbp	boodle: oh like a `this` variable? Yeah there's no such thing
11:48	sm0ke	hello any library in clojure for maps with expiry values on keys?
11:49	TimMc	Like a cache?
11:49	sm0ke	TimMc: Yes sort of
11:49	`cbp	sm0ke: theres a cache library where you can set a time
11:49	boodle	`cbp: yes.. again just trying to hack the reader a little for convenience but a helper fn's the way to go
11:49	sm0ke	`cbp: what is it called?
11:49	`cbp	clojure.tools.cache i think
11:49	mpenet	sm0ke: core.cache and core.memoize
11:49	`cbp	no clojure.tools.memoize
11:49	`cbp	er
11:49	`cbp	core
11:50	`cbp	https://github.com/clojure/core.memoize
11:51	sm0ke	thanks
11:53	sm0ke	hey guys i have this sticky situaition where i want to read of a atom/agent/ref seq ( i dont know whats fits) ..and then set it to []..but i want to avoid the situation that anyone else changes it in between..how do i handle this
11:54	tbaldridge	sm0ke: compare-and-swap! on an atom
11:55	mdrogalis	sm0ke: Or use a transaction with a ref.
11:55	sm0ke	tbaldridge: ,(doc compare-and-swap!)
11:55	mdrogalis	I think it's compare-and-set!
11:56	logic_prog	does core.async support any type of "sorting"
11:56	logic_prog	i.e. we define a field/parameter to sort on, and the messages are in an order that minimizes that field
11:57	nDuff	logic_prog: ...so you want a priority queue? Plenty of ways to implement that.
11:57	logic_prog	nDuff: yes, I want a priority queue
11:57	logic_prog	nDuff: what do you have in mind?
11:58	nDuff	logic_prog: ...well, you can have a JVM-implemented priority queue from the standard library, and connect each end to a channel.
11:58	nDuff	that's the easiest approach.
11:58	logic_prog	I need it to work in clojurescript too
11:58	logic_prog	in fact, I need it to work in both clojure and clojurescript
11:58	logic_prog	actualy, let me talk about my real problem
11:58	logic_prog	cljs and clj are talking ove ra websocket
11:58	nDuff	in that case I'd probably do something with nested channels.
11:58	logic_prog	I need to ensure that the messages arrive "in-order"
11:59	logic_prog	err, are evaluted "in-order"
11:59	tbaldridge	logic_prog: that doesn't make sense, sort is a set operation, channels are streams of data.
12:00	logic_prog	server (clj) is sending client (cljs) streams of data
12:00	logic_prog	I wnat this stream processed in the order it is sent
12:00	logic_prog	so I need a way to detect out of order packets
12:00	logic_prog	I was thinking of attaching an id to every packet and "sorting"
12:00	mdrogalis	logic_prog: So artibrary access to the stream ordering, kinda?
12:00	llasram	logic_prog: Not just TCP?
12:00	logic_prog	llasram: yeah, I think basically I need to re-implement a TCP-like in cljs/clj
12:01	mdrogalis	s/stream ordering/stream contents
12:01	llasram	logic_prog: Er. What are you doing which could cause things to occur out-of-order?
12:01	logic_prog	javascript delays
12:01	tbaldridge	logic_prog: you could probably hack this via a custom buffer, could be tricky, but it could work.
12:01	logic_prog	between the ".-onMessage" and pushing it onto a queue,
12:01	llasram	I see
12:01	llasram	Interesting
12:02	logic_prog	llasram: I think JS can fuck me up by switching out a thread after it reserives the msg from websocket, but before it >! it onto a go channel.
12:02	logic_prog	we love JS.
12:02	logic_prog	alright, TCP it is
12:04	tbaldridge	logic_prog: I don't see how that can be the case. onMessage and put! will do what you want. No way they can arrive out of order
12:04	tbaldridge	logic_prog: if you use go and >! to put the message into the channel, then yeah, this could happen. Don't do that. :-P
12:47	dobry-den	For fun, I've been implementing Clojure functions in Emacs Lisp. How would yall handle the fact that '() is the same as nil in elisp?
12:48	technomancy	dobry-den: it's symptomatic of the lack of laziness in general
12:48	technomancy	have you seen dash.el?
12:48	dobry-den	My approach was to just make everything return vectors by default
12:48	technomancy	ahahahaah
12:48	technomancy	sorry, no one told you
12:48	technomancy	vectors in elisp and CL are a joke
12:49	dobry-den	what do you mean? aside from the fact that elisp's main collection fns are on lists
12:49	hyPiRion	They are very nice for mutability
12:49	technomancy	the syntax for vectors implicitly quotes them
12:49	hyPiRion	That's essentially it
12:50	technomancy	so [(+ 1 2 3)] doesn't eval to [6]
12:50	technomancy	and you have to learn a whole new set of functions that operate on vectors
12:50	technomancy	usually their names don't even match up with the list equivalents
12:50	dobry-den	haha that explains why my (vconcat coll [x]) returned [1 2 x]
12:50	bbloom	:-/
12:50	dobry-den	dang
12:51	technomancy	it is really boggling how bad they are
12:51	dobry-den	of course i just use (vector _)
12:51	bbloom	data structure literals and the evaluation of elements in them is pretty damn brilliant
12:52	technomancy	bbloom: it's difficult for me to see it as anything other than obvious, but you're probably right =)
12:52	bbloom	technomancy: all the best ideas are obvious in hindsight
12:52	bbloom	just like symbols vs keywords
12:53	dobry-den	i learned a lot of elisp last night though. like how much i appreciate clojure vs what seems to be elisp's different binding lookups for functions vs other symbols
12:53	bbloom	and if you think about why symbols v keywords is so brilliant, than lists vs vectors w/ their differing evaluation rules are precisely the same
12:53	bbloom	it's an obvious idea:
12:53	bbloom	anytime you add implicit evaluation, you need to add explicit elimination of that implicit evaluation
12:54	bbloom	and if you have multiple kinds of evaluation, you need multiple kinds of quoting
12:54	rasmusto	bbloom: are you saying that's what keywords do?
12:54	rasmusto	the explicit elimination of eval I mean
12:54	bbloom	keywords are basically always quoted symbols
12:54	technomancy	I wouldn't say you ever add implicit evaluation
12:54	bbloom	ignoring the differences in data structures, vectors are always quoted lists
12:54	technomancy	you remove implicit quoting
12:55	technomancy	but yeah
12:55	bbloom	but vectors have special quoting rules. it's a different type of quoting than the general purpose quote primitive
12:56	rasmusto	I dunno if I've fully understood keywords and their benefit over something like a quoted symbol, is it just that they can't be unquoted?
12:56	bbloom	rasmusto: a keyword is simply a symbol that always refers to itself
12:56	bbloom	importantly: you never need to worry about quoting or unquoting them
12:56	gfredericks	,''''':foo
12:56	clojurebot	(quote (quote (quote (quote :foo))))
12:56	rasmusto	okay, right.
12:56	dobry-den	If you were implementing Clojure functions in Elisp, do you know of a sensible way to implement a difference between '() and nil?
12:57	bbloom	but more importantly: they are keyword types when they get through the reader
12:57	bbloom	technomancy: do you (or anybody else) know of a lisp that has a built in "quote the datatype, but not the members" operator of sorts?
12:57	bbloom	like all of clojure's data structures?
12:58	technomancy	quote the data type?
12:59	bbloom	i mean like: (whatever-quote (vector-ish-thing 5 10 15))
12:59	bbloom	i mean like: (whatever-quote (vector-ish-thing 5 (+ 10 2) 15))
12:59	bbloom	where you'd get out a vectorish thing with 5 12 15 instead of a literal + in it
13:00	arrdem	is refheap having heartburn for anyone else today?
13:01	technomancy	bbloom: I don't see how that's a form of quoting
13:01	bbloom	technomancy: for lack of a better word
13:01	bbloom	i think thatematica would call it HoldHead
13:03	bbloom	s/thatematica/mathematica/
13:03	bbloom	weird typeo
13:03	wedr	nice
13:04	technomancy	but I don't know of any other lisps that get it right; no
13:06	llasram	Oh man -- how are people not using ASM to create macros around custom Java class generation all the time?
13:15	arrdem	Raynes: not sure what's up but I'm generating 500 errors on refheap.com/paste repeatably.
13:16	arrdem	Raynes: across chrome, firefox and refheap.el :/
13:22	pjstadig	llasram: do tell
13:27	arrdem	hum... is (clojure.core.typed/Seq <type>) no longer provided?
13:29	llasram	pjstadig: I used ASM to write a macro to generate some classes with interfaces (in the abstract sense) not well-supported by existing Clojure mechanisms
13:29	gfredericks	llasram: not well-supported? meaning impossible?
13:29	llasram	pjstadig: the ASM library includes a class called ASMifierClassVisitor which you can run over an existing .class file, and it'll spit out the (Java) ASM API calls to generate that class file
13:31	llasram	gfredericks: I believe so. I needed a custom constructor w/ a particular type signature and implementing a generics-using interface w/ the types right on the final class
13:32	llasram	Oh, and with annotations on everything
13:41	Raynes	arrdem: Seems to be fine at the moment.
13:42	dobry-den	technomancy: last night i started reading about maven (no java background). i am seeing if i can write a lein plugin that lets me drop 3rd party jars in a local folder, specify "local/<artifactID" in dependencies, and have lein install it for me
13:42	arrdem	Raynes: yay. okay thanks for looking.
13:42	dobry-den	is there any obvious hangup with that
13:42	Raynes	arrdem: Let me know if you have any issues and I'll take a look.
13:43	arrdem	Raynes: so my desktop 500s on everything as mentioned above, but my laptop works fine so I'm not sure what's up either.
13:43	master_op	#regex
13:43	dobry-den	Raynes: does laser 2.0.0-SNAPSHOT on clojars work? I haven't dug into the error that i get when i require it in a file but it says something about hickory.core.
13:44	dobry-den	but i probably will soon since i've been using as old version of laser for a while
13:45	Raynes	dobry-den: Theoretically it should, yes.
13:45	Raynes	arrdem: Your desktop is silly.
13:46	technomancy	dobry-den: you mean like lein-localrepo?
13:46	TimMc	Whee, I get to write a macro!
13:46	TimMc	Macros are like dessert.
13:47	gfredericks	lol
13:47	gfredericks	clojurebot: macros are like dessert
13:47	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
13:47	gfredericks	clojurebot: macros is <reply> macros are like dessert
13:47	clojurebot	In Ordnung
13:48	TimMc	gfredericks: You could also put \|pipes\| around the verb.
13:48	gfredericks	pipes!
13:48	gfredericks	~macros
13:48	clojurebot	Barking spiders!
13:48	gfredericks	lol whatever know what you want clojurebot
13:48	technomancy	...
13:48	dobry-den	my macro-writing experiences always turns into randomly spackling symbols with ~ and ' until it works
13:49	srruby	How do I control which functions are "exported" by my namespace? defn- ??
13:49	lazybot	srruby: Definitely not.
13:49	gfredericks	dobry-den: once I got good at writing macros that experience got promoted to when I try to write metamacros
13:49	technomancy	arrdem: I think with clojurebot it's intentional. part of the charm.
13:50	TimMc	I can confirm this.
13:50	dobry-den	macrofactories?
13:50	gfredericks	I guess so
13:50	TimMc	srruby: lazybot is wrong this time -- that is correct
13:50	dobry-den	i feel like i'm not getting better at writing macros
13:50	TimMc	srruby: defn- is just defn + ^:private, which can be put on any def
13:50	gfredericks	"I feel like I'm not getting better at eating pie."
13:51	TimMc	?!
13:51	srruby	Can I declare in the ns form which functions are "exported" ?
13:51	`cbp	fatty
13:51	`cbp	srruby: no
13:51	technomancy	srruby: unfortunately not
13:52	srruby	Thanks everybody. I'm surprised..
13:52	TimMc	srruby: vars are public ("exported") by default; putting ^:private on the var's name prevents this (but does not make it truly inaccessible.)
14:08	glosoli	Which of Emacs Kits include Clojure Mode ?
14:10	technomancy	glosoli: just use package.el
14:11	glosoli	technomancy: what's package.el umm ?
14:11	technomancy	it's not worth pulling in a bunch of unrelated stuff just for one file
14:11	glosoli	technomancy: aaa that I am doing it already
14:11	technomancy	http://marmalade-repo.org/
14:11	glosoli	Was just curious to check what else people do :)
14:11	glosoli	To learn something from their configs or such
14:11	seangrov`	arrdem: Same here, refheap seems to be broken on insert
14:11	technomancy	ah cool gotcha
14:12	arrdem	seangrov`: yay I'm not totally insane!
14:12	gf3	seangrov`, arrdem: WFM
14:12	dobry-den	if you have that kind of time it's pretty cool to spend a day setting up your .emacs.d from scratch
14:13	seangrov`	gf3: You can paste and save?
14:13	gf3	seangrov`: Yarp
14:13	gf3	https://www.refheap.com/116dd69edd6daeaed2b68ba20
14:15	arrdem	dobry-den: eh you only really have to do that twice... once to find the tools you like and one more time to shave the yacc into a modular config file set.
14:19	TimMc	Heh, "yacc-shaving".
14:19	arrdem	TimMc: we already shaved yacc, it's called instaparse :D
14:20	llasram	heh
14:21	wink	badumtsh :P
14:22	TimMc	:-D
14:22	arrdem	~rimshot
14:22	clojurebot	Badum, tish
14:33	dobry-den	instaparse is a definitive tool for the pathological yak-shaver
14:34	rasmusto	dobry-den: instaparse seemed like overkill for the shaving I had to do
14:34	dobry-den	and its readme does a good job of lulling you into a false sense of this-won't-take-long
14:35	wink	come to the dark side, we have grammars
14:36	dobry-den	hmm, i'm really getting this first instaparse example. i'll just write my own markdown parser for my blog
14:36	bitemyapp	dobry-den: instaparse is awesome.
14:36	dobry-den	i agree
14:37	dobry-den	the top few most popualr clj markdown parsers are all regex i believe
14:38	arrdem	I mean the original markdown "spec" was really a case of "here's what I regex match and what it transforms to"...
14:38	bitemyapp	arrdem: it's more complicated than that, the perl script he wrote violates a regular grammar IIRC
14:39	bitemyapp	as a result, a fully "compliant with original implementation" markdown parser has to be a parser, not just regex.
14:39	arrdem	bitemyapp: well perl regular expressions aren't regular so...
14:40	dobry-den	i tried writing my own markdown grammar.
14:40	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
14:40	bitemyapp	There's that too, but I don't just mean Perl regex backtracking.
14:40	dobry-den	i dont visit that folder anymore
14:40	arrdem	dobry-den: yep. basically.
14:40	utkarsh	I'm probably missing something small here, but in clojure-mode and nrepl, how do I send the current sexp into the nREPL buffer I have opened in a window? C-x C-e evaluates and shows the result in that little line below the mode line.
14:42	bitemyapp	utkarsh: C-h m
14:42	dobry-den	utkarsh: i usually c-x c-e all day. but if i want to port code to the repl, M-- C-c C-z or whatever will load the file namespace into repl window
14:42	hiredman	utkarsh: they may be something to do that, but I don't think most people work like that, so it seems unlikely
14:43	dobry-den	i think i only use the repl window when i want quick visual feedback on unwieldy/larger datastructures
14:48	honza	lol at dobry-den :)
14:49	bitemyapp	rkneufeld: do you have a minute to discuss the Korma chapter?
14:49	bitemyapp	rkneufeld: I've been working on it and need to make a decision.
14:53	rkneufeld	bitemyapp: I do, private message?
15:29	logic_prog	is there a way to tell emacs to indent my-defn with the same rules as defn?
15:31	technomancy	logic_prog: yes, but your indentation rules won't apply to anyone else editing your code
15:32	logic_prog	taht's fine
15:32	logic_prog	how do I do this?
15:32	technomancy	there's a put-clojure-indent function
15:33	logic_prog	hmm
15:33	logic_prog	I sholud be using clojure-emacs isntead of starter-kit?
15:33	bitemyapp	logic_prog: you should be using Emacs.
15:33	technomancy	what is clojure-emacs?
15:34	logic_prog	the first thing I find on google for put-clojure-indent
15:34	logic_prog	seems to be an emacs mode
15:34	bitemyapp	gf3: dem carpenter abs.
15:35	technomancy	logic_prog: don't use the starter kit; do use clojure-mode, nrepl.el, and paredit at least
15:35	gf3	bitemyapp: Topless roof Jesus
15:35	Raynes	gf3: Did I ever tell you that my toilet'd iPhone eventually recovered after about 5 days?
15:36	Raynes	I imagine your phone had less luck, so I thought I'd rub it in.
15:36	logic_prog	is this due to the ios7 water proof update?
15:36	Raynes	Yes.
15:38	gf3	Raynes: So did mine. Bag of rice, works every time → http://cloud.gf3.ca/Rjh6
15:38	clojurebot	Huh?
15:38	Raynes	gf3: dat rice
15:39	TimMc	Raynes: Mozilla Persona status: Still useless.
15:39	Raynes	TimMc: Still waiting for your github auth pull request, bro.
15:40	TimMc	This has been your scheduled quarterly reminder.
15:40	gf3	Oh shi—
15:40	Raynes	gf3: Also, still waiting for your redesigns you slacker.
15:40	TimMc	I can't believe it's still incompatible with Mozilla Firefox's password manager.
15:40	bitemyapp	Raynes: fuck auth, you should integrate bulwark :)
15:40	gf3	Raynes: I was thinking about that yesterday ❤
15:40	Raynes	bitemyapp: Still waiting for your bulwark pull request bro.
15:40	bitemyapp	TimMc: Mozilla people don't know how to implement services.
15:41	bitemyapp	Raynes: I have too much to do. :(
15:41	Raynes	bitemyapp: So do I!!1!
15:41	logic_prog	so put-clojure-indent seems to work sith (put-clojure-indent 'unify 2), but not (put-clojure-indent 'util/unify 2)
15:41	TimMc	bulwark, eh?
15:41	logic_prog	why does the / break things?
15:41	Raynes	bitemyapp: A friend said last night: "I remember when Raynes was jobless and worked on random projects constantly."
15:41	bitemyapp	Raynes: you know what my queue looks like. It's horrific.
15:42	Raynes	It actually made me sad enough that I'll probably hop back on some projects soon.
15:42	Raynes	Laser 2.0.0 needs to get finished, some features in refheap master need tweaked and released, some plugins in lazybot need fixed, etc.
15:42	bitemyapp	Raynes: http://i.imgur.com/1zTP0cc.gif
15:42	bitemyapp	^^ that's how busy I am.
15:43	technomancy	Raynes: that feeling when you are reluctant to hire someone because you know it will impact their community output =(
15:43	scriptor	damn, that's dark
15:43	bitemyapp	I'm pretty sure my output increased after I started at the company I'm at now.
15:43	Raynes	technomancy: Well, it isn't just work affecting my community output.
15:44	Raynes	I think I needed a bit of a break anyways.
15:44	technomancy	it's a thing people do
15:46	bitemyapp	Raynes: not like you gotta be a superhero. Just make things. :)
15:46	bitemyapp	you don't have to be an ecosystem-unto-yourself.
15:46	Raynes	bitemyapp: But I am a superhero.
16:37	Raynes	ifesdjeen: Darn you.
16:38	Raynes	ifesdjeen: I had just typed out an answer. :P
16:38	ifesdjeen	Raynes: :)
16:38	ifesdjeen	thanks <3
16:38	Raynes	<3
16:38	ifesdjeen	sorry i bothered you before i read the code ;)
16:38	ifesdjeen	couldn't figure it out for 2 hours :)
16:38	Raynes	It's fine. max-defs isn't even documented apparently.
16:38	Raynes	It should be mentioned in the docstring.
16:38	ifesdjeen	:)
16:39	ifesdjeen	probably
16:39	ifesdjeen	implemented workshop server on top of clojails, btw
16:39	ifesdjeen	we're using it for http://clojureworkshop.com
16:39	Raynes	Cool, cool.
16:39	SegFaultAX	ifesdjeen: I dig the logo.
16:40	SegFaultAX	Oh is that just the clojurewerkz logo?
16:40	ifesdjeen	SegFaultAX: it's somewhat similar to ClojureWerkz logo ;)
16:40	ifesdjeen	it's a part of it, let's say ;)
16:40	SegFaultAX	Heh
16:40	ifesdjeen	Raynes: do you want a couple of @clojurewerkz stickers?
16:40	ifesdjeen	actually, does anyone want some? :D
16:41	Raynes	ifesdjeen: I never turn down stickers.
16:41	antares_	hey Raynes
16:41	Raynes	Greetings, sir.
16:41	ifesdjeen	Raynes: where are you located?
16:41	Raynes	Los Angeles, CA.
16:41	ifesdjeen	ah
16:42	Raynes	International shipping is no fun.
16:42	mdrogalis	Stickers are awesome.
16:42	antares_	Raynes: how is SoCal treating you?
16:42	mdrogalis	Oh, read up :(
16:42	ifesdjeen	Raynes: they're currently in USA actually :)
16:42	Raynes	antares_: Wondrously. I love it here.
16:42	ifesdjeen	Raynes: although in SF :P
16:42	Raynes	:p
16:43	ifesdjeen	i know that Zach Tellman will be @ EuroClojure
16:43	Raynes	Everything is in SF. Angels are used to this fact.
16:43	ifesdjeen	not sure if he's anywhere close to you though
16:43	ifesdjeen	ah, SF, too
16:43	ifesdjeen	shoo
16:44	Raynes	Zach frequently visits LA. We (Geni) frequently have lunch with the Factual crew when Zach is in town.
16:44	ifesdjeen	Raynes: oh, great! I'll just give him some for you
16:44	Raynes	Cool.
16:45	antares_	Raynes gets ClojureWerkz stickers before I do :/
16:46	Raynes	:3
16:46	Raynes	antares_: Well, I don't actually know when I'll see Zach.
16:46	antares_	it's OK
16:46	ifesdjeen	antares_: no worries, Russia is on the list :)
16:47	antares_	ifesdjeen: Russian customs are ridiculously understaffed
16:47	ifesdjeen	i think there'll be some people on EuroClojure from MSK
16:47	Raynes	I seem to recall that he wants to be here when we do a telemetry-related Clojure meetup (we're hosting our first meetup at the Geni office on the 10th, and a future one will feature some telemetry-related shenanigans) so it could be a month or two before I see him again.
16:47	antares_	ifesdjeen: like you don't know that I'm not really in Moscow any more :P
16:48	ifesdjeen	:D
16:48	bitemyapp	antares_: elastisch is killing me man.
16:48	bitemyapp	(doc/search events-index events-type
16:48	bitemyapp	:query {:match_all {}}
16:49	bitemyapp	antares_: ^^ only ever seems to return 10 documents in an index that contains 31
16:51	antares_	bitemyapp: 10 is the default page size
16:51	bitemyapp	fFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
16:51	antares_	use scroll requests or pass a different limit
16:51	bitemyapp	I passed a limit filter.
16:51	antares_	I don't think it's a filter
16:51	bitemyapp	antares_: value 50 limit filter.
16:51	antares_	filters are applied to a result set
16:51	antares_	it has to be a search request option
16:52	antares_	(that's how ES works)
16:52	bitemyapp	antares_: you might be talking about something else but: http://clojureelasticsearch.info/articles/querying.html#limit_filter
16:54	antares_	filters are applied after the documents were retrieved from the index
16:54	bitemyapp	antares_: that fixed it. yeesh.
16:54	antares_	it's like HAVING in SQL, not WHERE
16:54	bitemyapp	antares_: that fucked us hard in ClojureCup :P
16:54	bitemyapp	I've used ES before, but it was awhile ago.
16:54	bitemyapp	Forgot about that.
16:54	antares_	hilariously I cannot find the query option that sets the limit
16:54	antares_	in ES docs (which are far from perfect)
16:55	bitemyapp	antares_: far far
17:16	logic_prog	in clojurescript, when I get an error, is there anyway to get a stacktrace ?
17:18	nDuff	logic_prog: if you mean that one refers to your actual Clojure code, you need source maps, which are new and experimental.
17:21	Batai	hello, how the highly experimental library for proper tco called i've forgot
17:21	ambrosebs	Batai: ctco IIRC
17:22	ambrosebs	https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fcjfrisz%2Fclojure-tco&ei=9oZMUo6sDoqulQWS34DQCA&usg=AFQjCNE1A6-fxzX1R2QZnIYECX5f6FBxyQ&sig2=0fUF9w-p5_dnF81qwSkA3Q&bvm=bv.53537100,d.dGI
17:22	ambrosebs	whoops!
17:22	ambrosebs	https://github.com/cjfrisz/clojure-tco‎
17:23	Batai	yeah, thanks.
17:23	bitemyapp	ambrosebs: whooooaaaaa. Does that work?
17:23	ambrosebs	bitemyapp: I don't think it's quite ready
17:24	ambrosebs	bitemyapp: need to bug cjfrisz more!
17:24	bitemyapp	still, having safe mutual recursion would be awesome.
17:24	bbloom	it's a lexical transform, so you might as well just use trampoline
17:25	technomancy	if you don't mind having wrappers everywhere it shouldn't be a big deal, right
17:25	technomancy	?
17:25	bbloom	it doesn't enable you to do anything you couldn't do before, it just makes it a tiny bit more automatic :-)
17:25	gfredericks	there's a bug in reduce due to lack of TCO
17:25	technomancy	right, it's not like it's possible to suddenly get TCO for free
17:25	bitemyapp	trampoline annoys me.
17:25	bitemyapp	gfredericks: what's the bug?
17:26	bbloom	everywhere? you only need it at the mutually recursive call sites, which is probably only a few more places than wrapping the declaration sites
17:26	gfredericks	bitemyapp: stack overflow when reducing seqs that transition type frequently
17:26	gfredericks	,(->> (cons 1 [2]) (repeat 10000) (apply concat) (reduce +))
17:26	clojurebot	#<StackOverflowError java.lang.StackOverflowError>
17:26	gfredericks	^ TCO would fix that immediately
17:28	gfredericks	that sequence is perfectly usable in other contexts, just not with reduce
17:52	hyPiRion	oh, hah, that fun thingy
18:04	rasmusto	bogdanp needs to be bogdamped
18:04	Batai	rasmusto: Lol.
18:09	technomancy	has anyone touched a 32-bit computer in the last 2 years?
18:09	technomancy	apart from mobile devices, phones, gaming, etc
18:09	bbloom	is that like a mainframe or something?
18:09	_freenode	I've been mostly running 32-bit VMs
18:10	rasmusto	technomancy: does an 8-bit computer count?
18:10	technomancy	rasmusto: only for hipster cred
18:10	`cbp	I sell software for stores that runs on 32 bits
18:10	`cbp	32 bit xp
18:10	rasmusto	technomancy: yeah, robots w/ micros are pretty hipster
18:10	technomancy	I'm thinking for machines you do dev on
18:11	rasmusto	I had a command line on my robot
18:11	`cbp	oh :P only for testing
18:11	_freenode	Realistically, there's no excuse for my laptop to be 64-bit
18:12	technomancy	_freenode: those VMs aren't for clojure dev though right?
18:12	_freenode	Dammit.
18:12	hyPiRion	technomancy: I made a 16 bit machine. Does that count?
18:12	jimrthy	technomancy: Those VMs are for all sorts of dev. Including clojure
18:13	`cbp	when i used ubuntu it was a 32 bit machine if that counts, that was my main de machine
18:13	`cbp	dev*
18:13	`cbp	32 bit vm
18:13	technomancy	hyPiRion: see my response to rasmuto
18:14	rasmusto	I liked to think my my robot as "prod"
18:14	jimrthy	technomancy: I've also done a little dev on my chromebook, which is 32-bits. Pretty much all SSH'd into my 32-bit server VM...but that was really just personal web-site cheap hosting stuff
18:14	rasmusto	s/my/of
18:14	hyPiRion	oh. Well, we made game of life and video filters on it. Not exactly general purpose.
18:14	technomancy	man, all the things you don't have to think of when you're on a VM
18:15	technomancy	I mean, the JVM
18:18	hyPiRion	I'd guess that counts for many VMs though
18:18	bja	so if I'm not supposed to use the format function in clojurescript, is there an alternative?
18:19	hyPiRion	is cl-format ported over to cljs?
18:19	technomancy	hyPiRion: but not virtualbox =)
18:19	bja	referring to https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/48c8d0fafc18375876e10caf960a7c7da27ac308
18:20	hyPiRion	technomancy: heh, right
18:22	jimrthy	Is there an idiomatic way to poll a core.async channel? Right now I'm trying an alts read w/ a 1 ms timeout, but I'd rather skip that ms if possible.
18:23	bbloom	jimrthy: you can provide a default
18:24	bbloom	https://github.com/clojure/core.async/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/async.clj#L243
18:24	jimrthy	bbloom: Sweet, thanks
18:26	dobry-den	What does an asterisk* at the end of a function name tend to represent?
18:28	technomancy	it means either "internal implementation detail" or "sorry but I couldn't think of a better name for this function"
18:29	bja	I guess "internal implementation detail" is close enough to "function version of a macro named the same minus the *"
18:29	danlentz	sorry to ask what I'm sure is a du,b question but I'm a little confused as to the use of (.method args) vs (. method args) and how .. fits in. Is there a quick expln or a good webpage anyone that covers this?
18:36	technomancy	danlentz: (. obj method args) is mostly just for macroexpansion
18:37	technomancy	use (.method obj args) for single method calls and generally -> for chains
18:39	danlentz	why for instance is it not corect to say (.digest (java.security.MessageDigest/getInstance "SHA1")) but seems to require (doto (java.security.MessageDigest/getInstance "SHA1") (.digest ……))
18:40	technomancy	danlentz: doto means "ignore the return value"
18:40	technomancy	it's a totally different call
18:40	akurilin	Is there any way of suppressing exceptions being dumped to the terminal when running tests that make them get thrown?
18:40	akurilin	In my case they're SQL exceptions that I'm intentionally hitting.
18:41	hyPiRion	akurilin: (is (thrown? ExceptionName body))
18:41	hyPiRion	for clojure.test
18:43	danlentz	ah. so what Im looking for is (-> (make-digest +sha1+)
18:43	danlentz	(.digest (.getBytes "sss")))
18:44	akurilin	hyPiRion, just to clarify, I'm not actually to interested in check that they were thrown, I check the result of the API call to see how many concurrent calls failed. I just want to avoid spammin the test log so that when exceptions are thrown, I do end up looking at them
18:44	akurilin	(real exceptions, not the expected ones)
18:44	danlentz	sorry (-> (make-digest +sha1+)
18:44	danlentz	(.digest (.getBytes "sss")))
18:46	hyPiRion	akurilin: oh, then you could probably bind err or out to a StringWriter and ignore its content
18:46	hyPiRion	Look at e.g. how with-out-str and how it handles it: (source with-out-str)
18:47	akurilin	hyPiRion, ok that's cool, I just to redef it for a few specific tests, so this is probably not too hackish
18:48	technomancy	danlentz: when in doubt, macroexpand
18:48	danlentz	also, is there an equivalent Class or unboxed primateve in clojure/java to the common-lisp bit-vector?
18:49	technomancy	danlentz: also, don't use +foo+ for constants; everything that isn't a reference type is a constant
18:49	danlentz	ah good point.
18:49	danlentz	:) +culture-shock+
18:49	technomancy	heh
18:51	Def`1	Hi
18:51	Def`1	said somebody here on the Russian?
18:53	Def`1	means by which you can write a gui clojure
18:53	akurilin	hyPiRion, well err didn't do it, but out did. Either I'm manually logging that exception from somewhere, or it's not beign saved to err by default.
18:53	danlentz	common-lisp has just so many facilities for working with bytes, bits, bit-vectors, and ESPECIALLY unsigned numbers which I feel like I've been really grappling with.
18:54	akurilin	hyPiRion, in any case I learned something new today thanks to you :)
18:54	Def`1	ty
18:54	hyPiRion	akurilin: np
18:54	akurilin	hyPiRion, btw, is foo# some kind of naming convention for overridden dynamic vars?
18:55	hyPiRion	akurilin: no, it's macro sugar. It's for generating symbols not colliding with other symbol names
18:55	danlentz	but a bit vector facility would go a long way toward implementing some, if there is such a thing in java/clojure?
18:55	technomancy	danlentz: byte arrays are common, but unsigned numbers are not a thing on the JVM
18:55	hyPiRion	,`(let [val# (some computation)] (do-something-with val#))
18:55	clojurebot	(clojure.core/let [val__29__auto__ (clojure.core/some sandbox/computation)] (sandbox/do-something-with val__29__auto__))
18:56	akurilin	hyPiRion, oh I see. Yeah I'm not yet at macro-fu yet, so I won't be able to appreciate it at this point. Soon though.
18:57	bitemyapp	akurilin: don't use macros.
18:57	hyPiRion	akurilin: heh, just think of it as a way to "hide" names of variables
18:57	technomancy	danlentz: only other thing I'm aware of is https://github.com/ztellman/immutable-bitset
18:57	danlentz	y. I'm been using a vector of shorts to represent an "octet-vector" and escape the signed-arithmatic hassles. Its not a huge concern to me space wise as I'm only working with 128 bit UUIDs but I have a nagging doubt about performance vs byte-arrays
18:58	akurilin	bitemyapp, are there really no situations you can think of where macros would be very useful, even as an advanced clojure user?
18:58	akurilin	*not useful, "the right choice" is what I meant
18:58	danlentz	ooh. not what I was looking for at the moment but very cool!
18:59	akurilin	hyPiRion, got it!
18:59	akurilin	Got to use pmap for the first time today to test a pretty simple race condition I was having, woot.
19:00	danlentz	actually it implements "bit-seq" which might be exactly what I'm looking for
19:00	bitemyapp	akurilin: I tell people not to use macros until they know when to stop listening to me.
19:00	bitemyapp	akurilin: when they know enough to know they shouldn't use macros, then they're ready for macros.
19:00	hyPiRion	Macros are nice if you use them properly, but that require experience
19:00	danlentz	technomancy: thank you very much. quite helpful!
19:00	bitemyapp	You won't be ready to decide when to use macros until you've decided not to use macros.
19:00	bitemyapp	Then you can use macros.
19:00	technomancy	danlentz: good luck
19:00	bitemyapp	Or we can skip the zen koan and you can just take my word for it when I say, "don't use macros"
19:01	hyPiRion	bitemyapp: Sounds like some lisp zen.
19:01	hyPiRion	ah, right, you got to that point.
19:01	AimHere	hyPiRion, surely you need to use macros improperly to get that experience!
19:01	bitemyapp	AimHere: yeah but you're better off making those mistakes when you have a stronger foundation.
19:02	akurilin	The problem is that you won't learn not to use macros until you've made enough mistakes by using them.
19:02	hyPiRion	AimHere: As long as you don't include them in your library you open source :)
19:02	bitemyapp	macros won't really help establish that foundation and you need to get a good nose for how macro expansion works and what it means in terms of the "time" code gets evaluated.
19:02	technomancy	you can learn from trying to use other libs that misuse macros too =)
19:02	bitemyapp	akurilin: you learn macros faster the longer you wait to use them.
19:02	technomancy	though that's not as easy as it once was
19:05	akurilin	I'll do that.
19:07	danlentz	ztellman/primitive-math has quite a number of usefull arithmetic operations imllemented -- byte->ubyte long->ulong bitwise-ops. This guy is a star! :)
19:11	hiredman	danlentz: long->ulong is something of a misnomer, the jvm has no unsigned primitive types, what happens there is transforms the long in to bytes, and creates a heap allocated BigInteger from those bytes
19:14	Apage43	man
19:15	bitemyapp	Apage43: yes?
19:15	Apage43	the no unsigned thing is a killer
19:15	Apage43	because I easily forget about it most of the tim
19:15	Apage43	*time
19:15	Apage43	but every once in a while it consumes my whole day
19:15	danlentz	i've been wrestling with unsigned all day
19:15	SegFaultAX	Ugh, circleci keeps dying.
19:15	Apage43	cause i'm fiddling with file formats, protocols, or such
19:15	bitemyapp	SegFaultAX: :(
19:16	bitemyapp	SegFaultAX: going to the Clojure Community Night?
19:16	danlentz	my soon is to represent unsigned long as a vector of 8 shorts
19:16	hiredman	SegFaultAX: seems unlikely, they have a type system
19:16	danlentz	unsigned int as 4 shorts
19:16	SegFaultAX	bitemyapp: As prismatic?
19:16	SegFaultAX	At*
19:16	danlentz	unsigned byte as 1 short
19:16	SegFaultAX	hiredman: Sweet burn.
19:16	Apage43	of course, I can always say to my self "hey, it could be Javascript"
19:16	hiredman	danlentz: clojure vectors (and almost all jvm collections) will box primitive values
19:17	bitemyapp	SegFaultAX: yes, at Prismatic.
19:17	bitemyapp	hiredman: nice burn.
19:17	danlentz	so if i say (octets -1) i get [255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255]
19:17	SegFaultAX	bitemyapp: Yea, Jason Wolfe pinged me about it.
19:17	SegFaultAX	Is that tonight?
19:18	Apage43	si
19:18	hiredman	[], cojure vectors, box primitives, so those numbers are heap allocated
19:18	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
19:18	danlentz	(octets 0x80a0a0a0a) [8 10 10 10 10])
19:19	danlentz	oh yeah? well that pretty much means I've totally wasted my time … :-/
19:19	danlentz	grrrrr
19:19	danlentz	jesus what are you supposed to do?
19:19	technomancy	what are you trying to do?
19:21	danlentz	trying to augment the java.util.UUID class with a number of additional features which I'm accustomed to having in my CL environment.
19:21	technomancy	and you're having performance problems?
19:21	hiredman	generally the way you deal with unsigned types on the jvm is you byte the bullet and use the next up size of signed type, but you can't do that with longs
19:22	danlentz	so there is a need for representation of 128 bit values with extensive bit-twiddling assembly , dissssembly, and general manipulation
19:22	hiredman	java.util.UUID uses two longs
19:23	technomancy	bit-twiddling on the JVM is possible, but it's a terrible place to start learning a new language
19:23	danlentz	right will Java uuid is 2 longs. so i most importantly need to transform those into a 128 bit or 16 (unsigned) byte representation
19:24	danlentz	y its been educational but really aggravating.
19:25	danlentz	i had looked to avoid byte vector b/c of the signedness of the individual elements was driving me crazy, but I am getting the picture it might beg the only way
19:26	danlentz	i am totally disheartened that my vector of shorts wind up heap allocated
19:26	technomancy	you can have primitive vectors iirc
19:26	technomancy	they just don't work that way by default
19:26	danlentz	it was working so well
19:27	danlentz	really? via metadata?
19:27	technomancy	I forget the details because I've never needed primitives ever but it was one of the original POCs for deftype
19:27	danlentz	a POCs on all their houses :)
19:27	technomancy	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/1.2.0/clojure.core/vector-of
19:28	danlentz	hey that might be what i need
19:30	mlb-	I want to have a test which uses a file's contents. How can I access this file without hardcoding the path to my clojure project/test/namespace/filename ?
19:31	rasmusto	mlb-: clojure.java.io/resource ?
19:32	mlb-	rasmusto: I'm new to clojure/JVM, is there a simple example somewhere (I don't see on clojuredocs.org)
19:32	danlentz	the java UUID stuff seems really meager and simpleminded -- much of what functionality it has works via some really ugly conversions to and form strings. If I can work out the basic issues of how to represent and manipulate the uuid bits as unboxed values it seems to me I should be able to do a whole lot better performance wise as well as augment the protocol with a number of capsbilities that make working with UUIDs a real pleasant experience
19:33	bitemyapp	uuids aren't usually in the middle of performance-centric code.
19:33	technomancy	heh, I've always worked with uuids as strings; pleasant enough for me.
19:34	danlentz	there is a common-lisp library repo: mon-key/unicly that does an incredibly meticulous job of implementing and optimizing rfc4122 down to the most minute detail
19:34	rasmusto	mlb-: make a directory called resources in your project root, then do (slurp (resource "somedir/myfile.txt"))
19:34	technomancy	how is it different?
19:34	bitemyapp	technomancy: maybe if you needed to generate sequences of them or something? I don't know.
19:35	bitemyapp	danlentz: does that make a difference?
19:35	danlentz	orders of magnitude faster than working with strings. One can cheaply generate millions per second. This opens the door to a lot of creative uses for them as they become quite economical
19:36	technomancy	I guess that's a thing people do?
19:37	seangrov`	bitemyapp: You going to the prismatic meetup tonight?
19:37	bitemyapp	seangrov`: I'm presenting
19:37	danlentz	I've used them in a number of ways… for example in a transaction system for graph database, where the "next" transaction is represented as a v5 uuid of the current uuid and a sequence number or some other type of designator
19:38	bitemyapp	seangrov`: in person, not via disembodied hologram - so yes I will be there.
19:38	seangrov`	bitemyapp: I see, suppose that's a good answer
19:38	bitemyapp	I have many answers, all of them good, not many of them correct.
19:38	seangrov`	I'll probably be there as well, just a tiny bit late. Have to meet my old CEO at Lava Lounge first
19:39	bitemyapp	seangrov`: cool, look forward to seeing you. Hopefully you get to see my talk.
19:40	Apage43	I have approximate knowledge of many things
19:40	Apage43	i have to get my self to the train at some point
19:47	danlentz	you can use this technique to implement a linked list ior other structure in a data store where the only way you can follow it is if you have knowedede if the initial namespace, key, or both. This can be a very useful technique that is easy to use but totally invisible if its not the structure you are dealing with. The entries otherwise are basically just background static you'll never wind up seeing.
19:49	danlentz	useful for representation of versioned resources, especially in a clojure model where values are (ideally) represented persistently.
19:52	danlentz	useful for modeling dynamic context where one might wish to resolve identifiers by working backward through some dynamic chain of environments.
19:53	danlentz	or "lexical" type context too i guess
19:54	coventry	What sort of problems are these kinds of data structures useful for?
19:54	danlentz	but this is another technique that is extremely useful for building on a graph-database abstraction
19:55	danlentz	coventry: me?
19:55	coventry	yeah
19:55	danlentz	ah. scroll back i've just been ratting them off for about 10 minutes now!
19:56	danlentz	but in a less abstract and immediate sense I
19:57	coventry	danlentz: I read it. What's a practical problem you can apply this framework to?
19:59	danlentz	see them as quite a nice means for implementing a diatomic model to support "projection" of specific "contexts" (or graphs i guess you might say) from diatomic as a graph model to an ephemeral OWL model and back again.
19:59	danlentz	anyway its not a framework its a uuid
20:00	coventry	Conceptual framework.
20:00	danlentz	a mechanism of calculation of (effectively) 128 bit integers
20:02	danlentz	but I forget the figure something lile if each atom in the universe calculated continuously these numbers at 1 million per second it wold be 1 trillion years until a repeat
20:02	danlentz	or something roughly that astounding.
20:03	danlentz	so by using this mechanism we can do things in a very very very large address space.
20:03	danlentz	and in a number of useful ways
20:04	danlentz	check out mon-key/unicly repo on github i believe there are some use-cases albeit fairly trivial.
20:04	coventry	Yeah, I was mildly curious about what novel things we can do this way.
20:06	danlentz	or check out repo lisp/de.setf.resource for an example using them for real as the basis of management of a completely lock-free concurrent distributed tranaction model based on these techniques for a distributed graph database
20:06	danlentz	painlessly i might add
20:07	coventry	Thanks.
20:09	danlentz	although de.setf.resource uses a somewhat fierier uuid library to unicly that isn't nearly as fast. the both implement the same interface or protocol or whatever you guys would call it, so it could be trivially updated to resolve that
20:10	danlentz	it uses dardoria/uuid which is an older lib
20:11	danlentz	not as meticulous or precise with regards to the minute detail or optimized in any way compatible to monk-key/unicly but otoh somewhat more forgiving and easier to pick up and start using.
20:13	danlentz	anyway my goal is to get some (hopefully significant) portion of their capability implemented for clojure.
20:17	akurilin	What's the DB record validation philosophy in Clojure? As in, I have the (perhaps bad?) habit of doing pre-emptive checking in the app layer for stuff like record uniqueness, etc as a way of generating helpful error messages. Now, the PG people tell me that it's wrong and I should just do whatever insertion I need to, and then interpret the SQL exception accordingly and use that for error reporting.
20:17	akurilin	The latter seems like a neater approach, but I'm wondering if anybody is actually doing it here.
20:17	danlentz	and after that maybe turn to have a whack at more serious optimization and performance matters. Compiler macro type facilities are not available for java/clojure as far as i can see so that may preclude some measures available in common-lisp
20:29	technomancy	akurilin: you can go overboard with logic in the DB, but enforcing record uniqueness there is very reasonable
20:29	repsca	I think david nolen made at post at one point where he implemented a protocol so that a regular expression could be called like a funtion
20:29	repsca	i can't find the post, so anyone know how I would go about doing it?
20:30	akurilin	technomancy, so would it be pretty idiomatic to wrap a DB insertion call with a try-catch and return the results "monadically" to the caller?
20:30	akurilin	technomancy, for a uniqueness scenario
20:30	akurilin	[results, error] kind of business
20:31	technomancy	akurilin: personally I wrap the whole request in a try/catch and turn it into a 4xx/5xx in one place
20:31	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/syme/blob/master/src/syme/web.clj#L112
20:31	technomancy	ex-info is your friend here
20:31	technomancy	some people hate that
20:32	akurilin	technomancy, I have that as well for the cases where something slipped through my other checks. However if I want to report a very specific error like "this insertion failed because this field is not unique" then the umbrella catch might be too generic.l
20:32	technomancy	akurilin: right; in my example I don't make an effort to come up with better messages, but you could certainly add it
20:33	geoffeg	is there a simpler way to write this? '[(last loc) (first loc)]
20:33	technomancy	geoffeg: without the quoting?
20:33	technomancy	(juxt last first)
20:33	technomancy	((juxt last first) loc) ; rather
20:34	geoffeg	ah, i had forgotten about juxt
20:34	technomancy	clojurebot: tell us about juxt
20:34	clojurebot	Excuse me?
20:34	technomancy	clojurebot: juxt?
20:34	clojurebot	if you think 'complement is great, wait till you see 'juxt
20:35	geoffeg	heh
20:35	geoffeg	technomancy: thanks
20:35	technomancy	np; always happy to talk about juxt
20:36	akurilin	technomancy, that's great, thanks.
20:36	mlb-	rasmusto: Is there a way to refer to a different directory than "resources"? I'd like to be able to uberjar my project without packaging unit test fixtures
20:37	technomancy	mlb-: dev-resources or test-resources
20:37	rasmusto	mlb-: this might be a use-case for a profile or somesuch ^
20:39	mlb-	rasmusto, technomancy: Oh, very cool. That would allow me to change where resources addresses? Does "lein test" automatically choose a :test profile, if defined in the project.clj?
20:40	technomancy	mlb-: yeah basically
20:40	technomancy	dev-resources is available in the repl but not the uberjar; test-resources is only available when running `lein test`
20:40	technomancy	the latter which can be crappy when running tests in the repl, so I don't advise it
20:41	mlb-	Is that available due to leiningen magic, or is there a required form to be added to project.clj?
20:41	technomancy	mlb-: it's the default; you can make your own :test profile if you like
20:45	llasram	I like test-resources for adding a logging configuration which only prints ERROR+
21:35	akurilin	Do Clojurians favor making a separate little function for each distinct sql query, on the DAL layer, or do they prefer to make something like one single SELECT function that internally uses korma/whatever to account for all possible permutations of parameter
21:35	akurilin	s
21:36	akurilin	it's kind of a complexity vs duplication tradeoff
21:41	danlentz	i really like clojur protocols
21:41	danlentz	it seems like they really outdid themselves with that concept
21:43	danlentz	makes java reasonably tolerable which imo is a remarkable achievement :)
21:44	oich	is enlive what I should look into for parsing xml with namespaces, or is there something else?
21:45	ddellacosta	akurilin: I have a macro that lets you generate common prepared queries by passing in specific where clauses and whatnot, and then I handle special cases…specially.
21:45	danlentz	combines the extensibility and dynamism of CL generic function approach with the structure and cohesion of java interfaces -- just fantastic
21:45	ddellacosta	akurilin: but I use clojure.java.jdbc so it's a bit different
21:46	akurilin	ddellacosta, so a bit of a hybrid approach, huh?
21:47	ddellacosta	akurilin: yeah…it works just fine and DRYs stuff up well enough, but honestly I still don't feel like I know The Right Way to do things.
21:49	alandipert	danlentz: i know, big fan also! clojurescript has them at the bottom and it's great
22:03	akurilin	Need a sanity check. Ring's cookie session store places a URL-encoded string in the cookies under ring-session key. When I call back into the ring app, I pretty much return the cookie as-is, since it decodes it on read.
22:03	akurilin	However ruby's rest-client insists on unescaping cookies before making a HTTP request
22:04	akurilin	I monkey-patched that behavior out, but it's just odd that it'd be hardcoded in there.
22:05	akurilin	Isn't the whole point of URL-escaping to make sure characters aren't lost as part of the request? Why decode the string?
22:52	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: ping
22:52	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: hai
22:53	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: howdy. question about blackwater. This is super weird, no? CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such var: time/in-millis, compiling:(black/water/jdbc.clj:18:20)
22:54	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: obviously it's something with my app, but I've added exclusions for clj-time on everything that showed up in lein deps :tree, so I'm a bit stumped
22:54	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: was just wondering if you had any ideas. :-/
22:56	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: I even added a dependency on clj-time explicitly just now. Same annoying exception.
23:16	chare	hi
23:16	chare	so can i get unmuted on my other account
23:19	mtp	probably not
23:22	mtp	gfredericks is that like sync\nsync\nsync on ye olde unix
23:23	gfredericks	is it? I don't know what that does
23:25	mtp	well
23:26	mtp	back before they invented /sbin/shutdown
23:26	mtp	you had to take the unix to single user and kill it yourself
23:27	mtp	"sync" would flush the cache to disk, and the other two syncs were there to give the rest of the cache time to flush
23:27	mtp	or so goes the legend
23:31	xeqi	gfredericks: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/pull/688/files
23:31	ta479	any FRP libraries in clojure?
23:32	ddellacosta	ta479: clojurescript, but: https://github.com/tailrecursion/javelin
23:33	gfredericks	mtp: ah no this was a heisenbug. It would come up about every 5 test runs. So I was saving some typing.
23:33	ta479	there isn't one for regular clojure yet?
23:34	gfredericks	xeqi: that'd be cool
23:34	mercwithamouth	o_O
23:34	ddellacosta	ta479: also, https://github.com/weavejester/reagi
23:34	mtp	gfredericks i was mostly being silly :)
23:35	ddellacosta	ta479: I saw another CLJS one too but not finding it in my starred repos at the moment
23:35	gfredericks	xeqi: oh it got merged in and then removed?
23:35	gfredericks	also I don't understand amalloy's PR message
23:37	amalloy	gfredericks: well it's a joke PR, obviously, and i know technomancy hates it when people's blogs contain advice that you should run lein clean a few times just in case
23:38	xeqi	gfredericks: yep, joke
23:38	ddellacosta	ta479: one I just found poking around, more a demo than a lib: https://github.com/leonardoborges/frp-code
23:39	gfredericks	amalloy: oh I didn't think of it wrt clean in particular
23:39	gfredericks	~repeatability
23:39	clojurebot	repeatability is crucial for builds, see https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/wiki/Repeatability
23:39	gfredericks	^ taken at face value you'd think he'd be in favor of such a task :)
23:39	amalloy	hah
23:41	gfredericks	:aliases {:scrub ["do" "clean" "clean" "clean"]}
23:41	ddellacosta	the motherlode FRP post, verra nice: http://kevinoncode.blogspot.jp/2013/05/a-short-survey-on-state-of-functional.html
23:51	right1	does anyone else have a problem with lein repl being much slower to start up on windows versus osx
23:54	geoffeg	today i discovered https://github.com/egamble/let-else thanks to a coworker.
23:58	Foxboron	right1: sadly, you just have to live with it :/
23:58	Foxboron	right1: the JVM startup time is horrible on windows
23:58	right1	:(
23:58	right1	also, you want to see something funny with windows?
23:59	right1	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0okmEqTKiDY
23:59	right1	title: lein repl and japanese locale not playing nice