#clojure – 2013-09-07

2013-09-07

00:02	brehaut	uvtc: https://github.com/technomancy/better-defaults/blob/master/better-defaults.el has replaced it i think
00:12	zanes	weavejester: You might enjoy prelude. https://github.com/bbatsov/prelude
00:13	weavejester	zanes: I'll take a look
00:14	zanes	weavejester: Not sure what's stymying you with paredit, but you'd probably at least need to understand hooks and such to get any of these kits set up the way you want.
00:14	zanes	weavejester: If I remember, prelude uses smartparens instead of paredit, even for Lisps.
00:15	zanes	weavejester: Don't' know what you've tried already, but I would imagine the problem with ESK is with some errant hook that's still hanging around.
00:15	zanes	Anyway.
00:16	weavejester	zanes: ESK sets up hooks for lisp modes for paredit. I couldn't figure out a way to disable it without creating my own copy of it.
00:16	zanes	Yikes.
00:17	weavejester	Now I just need to figure out why eldoc isn't working :/
00:17	zanes	ESK was enabling it via some unnamed hook or something? I always felt like that shouldn't even be possible.
00:18	weavejester	zanes: The hook was named, but fixed as (paredit-mode t). Overriding the name didn't seem to work.
00:18	zanes	weavejester: Hum. Can't you just remove-hook?
00:20	weavejester	zanes: Ah, I didn't know about that one.
00:20	weavejester	I'll try that
00:20	zanes	weavejester: \o/
00:21	weavejester	Although I'm still puzzled as to why eldoc isn't showing up :/
00:21	zanes	weavejester: I'd still recommend prelude as a better base, though.
00:21	weavejester	I'll take a look at it tomorrow
00:21	zanes	weavejester: eldoc-mode is enabled?
00:22	weavejester	zanes: Yep, and it's connected, and auto-complete works fine
00:22	zanes	Alas.
00:25	seabre	Anyone know if this is a good lein template to get started with playing around with clojurescript?: https://github.com/konrad-garus/cljs-kickoff
00:26	timg1	I used that recently and thought it was good, yes
00:27	seabre	sweet
00:27	timg1	I also found this to be pretty helpful if you haven't seen it: https://github.com/magomimmo/modern-cljs
00:30	weavejester	Hm, it looks like nrepl.el is having trouble talking to the nrepl in the latest lein...
00:32	weavejester	Ahah: https://github.com/clojure-emacs/nrepl.el/issues/356
00:32	weavejester	Looks like I need to update my emacs
00:34	SegFaultAX	timg1: That project has always confused me. How can you have a "modern" of something that's only 2-3 years old.
00:34	SegFaultAX	gfredericks: Ping.
00:35	timg1	I know, it's not like there's a ton of antique implementations around
00:35	supersym	current-cljs might be more suitable
00:36	SegFaultAX	supersym: It's all current. ;)
00:36	timg1	So would you say that's a bit more, ah… modern?
00:36	supersym	nah
00:36	seabre	timg1, thanks that's perfect
00:37	supersym	timg1: dang.. I can be slow sometimes.. oh and its late ^^
00:37	SegFaultAX	gfredericks: Just wanted to let you know I really enjoyed your talk. Most of it wasn't new content for me, but it was pretty good all the same. I did appreciate how you wrote out all the macros long hand before showing the how/why of syntax quote.
00:38	timg1	np. I like the kickoff one because it's small, but I liked all the tutorial stuff in the modern-cljs one (though I didn't wind up using domina myself)
00:43	seabre	Haha SegFaultAX, at the rate webdev land moves, 2-3 years is old
01:10	dissipate_	SegFaultAX, which talk?
01:13	amalloy	dissipate_: presumably his introductory macro talk at clojure/west
01:14	zanes	Yeah, SegFaultAX. You can't throw something like that out there without a link. Haha
01:17	seabre	https://github.com/strangeloop/clojurewest2013/tree/master/slides/sessions/Fredericks-Macros
01:17	amalloy	$google gary fredericks macro talk
01:17	lazybot	[Macros: Why, When, and How - InfoQ] http://www.infoq.com/presentations/macros-clojure-west-2013
01:17	amalloy	not that hard to find without a link
01:25	wastrel	i will watch your video
01:25	dissipate_	seabre, ah, i have that one bookmarked
01:26	dissipate_	seabre, unfortunately, there aren't any books on clojure macros
01:31	clj_newb_2345	besides nrepl + paredit, what else should I use for editing clojure in emacs?
01:31	dissipate_	amalloy, where is the advanced talk?
01:40	seabre	dissipate_: I'm pretty sure this is still the book on macros: http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisp.html
01:45	dissipate_	seabre, too bad it's not on clojure macros. :(
01:54	seabre	dissipate_: http://blog.fogus.me/2009/01/15/on-lisp-clojure-prolog-pt-1/
02:06	sdegutis	Made it a little better: http://clojuretip.herokuapp.com/
02:09	uvtc	sdegutis, neat.
02:10	uvtc	sdegutis, might be useful to also provide a link with each tip to the relevant clojuredocs.org page.
02:10	sdegutis	Oh yeah good idea.
02:12	seabre	sdegutis: whoa, where's your HTML doctype?
02:12	sdegutis	seabre: I thought hiccup.core/html gave me one :(
02:12	seabre	nope
02:16	seabre	Something like: (html (html5 [...])) should do the trick
02:54	sdegutis	Fixed. Thanks seabre.
02:55	sdegutis	Huh, this looks neat: http://clojuretip.herokuapp.com/line-seq
02:59	vijaykiran	hmm - random isn't too random
03:00	sdegutis	vijaykiran: it changes every 5 sec
03:00	vijaykiran	Ah - I should wait 5 seconds :)
03:00	sdegutis	Well, I mean, you still have to refresh.. I should reword that.
03:00	vijaykiran	yeah, I was waiting for auto-refresh
03:01	johnmn3	aloha
03:01	sdegutis	vijaykiran: I'm not sure if auto-refresh would be a good idea or a bad idea.
03:01	johnmn3	I am attempting to chain a few functions together, which lazily consume a potentially large collection.
03:01	vijaykiran	sdegutis: It'd be bad, IMHO
03:01	seabre	if you do it, give the user a way to turn it off.
03:02	sdegutis	oh neat, http://clojuretip.herokuapp.com/rseq
03:02	johnmn3	for one of the functions, I need to "look ahead" about three elements...
03:02	vijaykiran	seabre: may be "autorefresh" enable disable could be nice
03:02	johnmn3	the way I've constructed it though, it wants to consume the whole collection.
03:02	jack_rabbit	johnmn3, well...
03:02	sdegutis	johnmn3: use lazy-seq and take (or nth)
03:02	johnmn3	How do I lazily consume three elements at a time?
03:03	johnmn3	lazy-seq...
03:03	SegFaultAX	Or perhaps lazy-cat
03:03	seabre	isn't partition lazy?
03:03	vijaykiran	So, who else is on ClojureCup ?
03:04	SegFaultAX	What's that?
03:04	johnmn3	https://www.refheap.com/18420
03:04	sdegutis	,(nth (repeatedly #(println "hi")) 3)
03:04	clojurebot	hi\nhi\nhi\nhi\n
03:04	seabre	SegFaultAX: http://clojurecup.com/
03:04	vijaykiran	SegFaultAX: http://clojurecup.com .. if your question was directed towards me ..
03:05	SegFaultAX	johnmn3: Try this
03:05	SegFaultAX	,(apply = (take 3 (range)))
03:05	clojurebot	false
03:05	SegFaultAX	,(apply = (take 3 (repeat 1)))
03:05	clojurebot	true
03:05	sdegutis	johnmn3: what is "s" and what should (drop-three-in-a-row s) return?
03:06	SegFaultAX	sdegutis: A seq of some kind, probably.
03:06	seabre	vijaykiran: I'd like to. I even have an idea, but I'm not confident enough in my clojure skills to get enough done in 48 hours.
03:06	johnmn3	it is supposed to eliminated long strings of characters that are the same, with the threshold being 3 in a row
03:07	vijaykiran	seabre: You can always try :)
03:08	johnmn3	the (if (> 4 (count l)) ... is simply to prevent index out of bounds... so it just throws away the last few.
03:08	vijaykiran	seabre: I registered as well .. with a couple of things in my mind .. but I need to work on designs and such
03:08	vijaykiran	seabre: btw there's #clojurecup channel
03:08	johnmn3	sdegutis: S is just a collection of things
03:08	sdegutis	johnmn3: ah I see. Hmm interesting problem.
03:09	SegFaultAX	vijaykiran: Neat!
03:09	johnmn3	I was thinking partition, but...
03:09	johnmn3	it has to be a sliding window
03:10	sdegutis	johnmn3: why wouldn't partition work? I don't understand what you mean by sliding window.
03:10	johnmn3	it has to compare three elements each iteration, but iterate by one
03:10	sdegutis	Ah right.
03:10	SegFaultAX	,(take 4 (parition 3 1 (range)))
03:10	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: parition in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
03:10	SegFaultAX	,(take 4 (partition 3 1 (range)))
03:11	clojurebot	((0 1 2) (1 2 3) (2 3 4) (3 4 5))
03:11	johnmn3	er we are
03:11	sdegutis	SegFaultAX: you could do that but you'd have to remove offending matches from the prev/next tuples too
03:11	sdegutis	SegFaultAX: which gets ugly anyway
03:12	SegFaultAX	sdegutis: Meh
03:12	sdegutis	Oh wait! You could do partition twice.
03:12	johnmn3	I think it will work
03:12	SegFaultAX	johnmn3: Why cap it at 3?
03:13	johnmn3	SegFaultAX: it's subjective really.
03:13	sdegutis	So for [1 2 3 4 5] you'd get ((0 1 2) (1 2 3) (2 3 4) (3 4 5)), and then you partition it again to get (((0 1 2) (1 2 3) (2 3 4)) ((1 2 3) (2 3 4) (3 4 5)))
03:13	johnmn3	just trying to make noisy data more noisy
03:14	sdegutis	This way you get to compare ((0 1 2) (1 2 3) (2 3 4)) all at once, and if the middle set is all equal, then filter that whole set-triple out... or something
03:15	sdegutis	Actually no, because then your next set-triple will still have dups. This plan no worky.
03:15	amalloy	johnmn3: you really shouldn't use (> x (count coll)) unless you know coll is counted - it breaks on infinite seqs, and is unnecessarily slow for large, finite sequences
03:15	amalloy	instead, (nthnext x coll) does the same thing
03:15	johnmn3	amalloy: thanks!
03:16	sdegutis	http://clojuretip.herokuapp.com/nthnext for reference
03:17	sdegutis	,(dec' 1.5)
03:17	clojurebot	0.5
03:17	sdegutis	,(dec 1.5)
03:17	clojurebot	0.5
03:17	SegFaultAX	,((fn rle [s] (when (seq s) (let [run (take-while #(= (first s) %) s) c (count run)] (cons [c (first s)] (rle (drop c s)))))) "111111222222333333abccccd")
03:17	clojurebot	([6 \1] [6 \2] [6 \3] [1 \a] [1 \b] ...)
03:18	SegFaultAX	I meant to make that lazy, but yea. RLE.
03:18	amalloy	&((fn rle [s] (map (juxt count first) (partition-by identity s))) "111111222222333333abccccd")
03:18	lazybot	⇒ ([6 \1] [6 \2] [6 \3] [1 \a] [1 \b] [4 \c] [1 \d])
03:18	SegFaultAX	Or that.
03:19	SegFaultAX	Oh yea, partition-by
03:19	SegFaultAX	Man I love clojure.core
03:19	amalloy	that's a classic rle impl, actually
03:20	SegFaultAX	amalloy: Yea, I didn't think of it.
03:20	SegFaultAX	Not sure why. :/
03:20	amalloy	the decoder is even simpler: ##((fn rld [s] (mapcat (partial apply repeat) s)) '([6 \1] [6 \2] [6 \3] [1 \a] [1 \b] [4 \c] [1 \d]))
03:20	lazybot	⇒ (\1 \1 \1 \1 \1 \1 \2 \2 \2 \2 \2 \2 \3 \3 \3 \3 \3 \3 \a \b \c \c \c \c \d)
03:20	amalloy	SegFaultAX: eh. these tricks all look easy when you've already seem them once
03:20	johnmn3	what's rle stand for?
03:20	SegFaultAX	Run-length encode
03:21	SegFaultAX	It's a standard compression technique
03:21	sdegutis	Reworded http://clojuretip.herokuapp.com/ to make it clearer how randomness is cached.
03:21	SegFaultAX	amalloy: No I've definitely implemented it in terms of partition-by before (thought not juxt).
03:21	johnmn3	ah, k
03:22	SegFaultAX	Though*
03:22	SegFaultAX	I started mentally from implementing it in Ruby instead of doing it properly in a Clojure mindset.
03:22	amalloy	sdegutis: it's not clear to me why anyone would care about your randomness source?
03:23	sdegutis	amalloy: mainly because people might get confused why clicking random twice in a row isn't changing anything
03:23	amalloy	except that it makes the app way worse IMO: now i can't just pound on refresh until i get something i don't already know
03:23	sdegutis	amalloy: hmm yeah that was annoying to me too.. maybe the cache should be optional or just taken off
03:23	amalloy	off. there's no reason for it at all
03:24	sdegutis	Fixed.
03:25	seabre	sdegutis: That's way better
03:26	sdegutis	Yeah, not sure why I added the caching.
03:26	amalloy	anyway, without the cache it's a neat little toy that will probably help some people. thanks for making it
03:27	sdegutis	thank TimMc
03:27	sdegutis	his idea :)
03:27	kohkane	Hey guys, I was just wondering if there was any way to recursively call an anonymous functions?
03:27	SegFaultAX	kohkane: Y-combinator
03:27	sdegutis	Oh neat, http://clojuretip.herokuapp.com/replace
03:28	SegFaultAX	kohkane: Or just give your thing a name. ;)
03:28	ddellacosta	sometimes my repl just freezes, there is some key command (ctrl-<something>) I'm doing to cause it, but I can't do anything without killing it and restarting the repl
03:28	ddellacosta	very frustrating, anyone else experienced this?
03:29	sdegutis	not I
03:29	amalloy	&((fn ! [x] (if (zero? x) 1 (* x (! (dec x))))) 5) ;; kohkane
03:29	lazybot	⇒ 120
03:29	amalloy	ddellacosta: if you're in emacs, you can C-h C-l to see what keys you just pressed
03:29	ddellacosta	amalloy: yeah, I'm not
03:30	ddellacosta	amalloy: I use a repl from outside emacs mostly
03:30	ddellacosta	amalloy: although I really need to start using it in emacs. Just haven't bothered yet since this mostly works for me beautifully
03:30	amalloy	so...surely you have readline support, at least, right?
03:31	kohkane	amalloy: Thanks
03:32	amalloy	i'm just trying to rule out the possibility that it's your tty STOP character, ddellacosta (which is C-s in most non-readline instances)
03:32	amalloy	if it's that, C-q should free it back up
03:33	ddellacosta	amalloy: yeah, I've tried that and it doesn't work--I figured I was doing exactly that and no dice. Ah well, I guess this is the thing that is telling me I really need to get comfortable with emacs repl
03:34	amalloy	if you're already happy with emacs, slime (or i guess nrepl these days, though i still prefer the Old Ways) is so so much better than a standalone repl
03:35	ddellacosta	amalloy: it's really stupid but I haven't bothered yet because I don't know all the key bindings to push stuff to the repl, and I find it really frustrating looking at the repl always at the bottom of the buffer--I'm constantly hitting ctrl-l in my terminal. I'm sure it's just configuration but it's something I'll have to sit down and figure out, and since what I have works quite well, I haven't tried yet. But there are a number of
03:35	ddellacosta	reasons I really need to give it a shot.
03:36	ddellacosta	I'm going to have to just sit down one of these days and slog through learning everything I need to get productive in emacs + nrepl
03:36	amalloy	ddellacosta: all you really need are C-c C-k, C-M-x, C-c C-z (optional), and C-c M-n (for nrepl; slime uses C-c M-p)
03:37	amalloy	respectively, those are: eval entire file; eval one form; switch to repl buffer; set repl namespace to current file's namespace
03:38	ddellacosta	amalloy: thank you!
03:38	amalloy	oh, and bind nrepl-jack-in to something; i like C-c j
03:39	ddellacosta	amalloy: alright, now I have no excuses. ;-)
03:40	ddellacosta	amalloy: and now that I'm playing with it, really not sure what I was complaining about re: repl being stuck at bottom of buffer…responds to ctrl-l just like any other emacs buffer it would seem.
03:40	ddellacosta	huh, maybe it was an older version? dunno
03:41	ddellacosta	omg it is really so much better what was I thinking
03:41	amalloy	that was fast!
03:42	ddellacosta	amalloy: I swear, the last time I tried it it did not work this smoothly for me
03:42	ddellacosta	amalloy: now it's just, like, bam
03:42	amalloy	i've tried nrepl a couple times, but i keep going back to swank
03:43	amalloy	mostly i can't stand how nrepl behaves when an exception is thrown
03:43	ddellacosta	whoops, meant that to be a question
03:43	ddellacosta	ah, hmm--let me see
03:43	amalloy	there are one or two other minor things, mostly related to keybindings that wouldn't be too hard to fix. i forget, really; just a lack of polish that someone will get around to fixing eventually
03:44	ddellacosta	amalloy: gotcha.
03:44	sdegutis	,(memfn length)
03:44	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval31$fn__32 sandbox$eval31$fn__32@5e6f01>
03:44	sdegutis	,((memfn length) "foo")
03:44	clojurebot	3
03:44	ddellacosta	amalloy: well, sincerely, thanks for that little push, it was just what I needed. Now I have to get my CLJS flow integrated with this too, which hopefully won't be too hard.
03:45	ddellacosta	xeqi was giving me some tips last week or something, and it seems like it shouldn't be hard either
03:45	amalloy	you're on your own with cljs, though. i don't really remember who uses nrepl+cljs
03:46	johnmn3	can flatten work lazily?
03:46	johnmn3	like (take 5 (flatten (stuff large-coll)))
03:46	ddellacosta	amalloy: hmm, how do I get access to the namespace of the directory I'm in? Do I need to connect to a repl session explicitly started up in that dir.?
03:47	SegFaultAX	johnmn3: Why do you need flatten? Using it sometimes indicates that you've done something you shouldn't have.
03:47	SegFaultAX	Sometimes, not always.
03:48	seabre	johnmn3: I'm pretty certain flatten does not work lazily.
03:48	johnmn3	well, the function I am mapping returns a seq but I need the end result to be in one collection.
03:48	ddellacosta	ah, nevermind
03:48	amalloy	~flatten
03:48	clojurebot	flatten is rarely the right answer. Suppose you need to use a list as your "base type", for example. Usually you only want to flatten a single level, and in that case you're better off with concat. Or, better still, use mapcat to produce a sequence that's shaped right to begin with.
03:48	seabre	johnmn3: http://stackoverflow.com/a/12627760
03:49	johnmn3	got it
03:50	johnmn3	looks like mapcat worked out of the box.
04:38	dobry-den	wow. there's nothing like wrestling with strings for an hour wondering why (get {"cat" "Mittens"} "cat") => nil. until finally deciding to (map int "cat") => [65279 99 97 116]
04:39	dobry-den	i need to find a repl setting that displays every nondisplayable character as a flaming gif.
04:55	callen	dobry-den: lol :)
04:55	callen	dobry-den: happens to the best of us.
05:19	TEttinger	,(char 65279)
05:19	clojurebot	\?
05:47	roybatty	what's the political channel on #freenode?
05:47	roybatty	yogothos you're a machine
05:47	TEttinger	roybatty: I'm guessing after not too long, #suicide
05:48	roybatty	TEttinger: are you european?
05:48	TEttinger	no.
05:48	TEttinger	I just think politics discussions on IRC are futile
05:48	roybatty	american?
05:48	TEttinger	and will make you consider the futility of life itself
05:48	TEttinger	yes
05:48	roybatty	futility of life
05:49	roybatty	that somehow reminds me of my favorite movie Blade Runner
05:49	TEttinger	it reminds me of monty python
05:49	roybatty	you an atheist?
05:49	TEttinger	yes
05:49	roybatty	i'm agnostic
05:50	roybatty	atheist is a hard hard life
05:50	TEttinger	religion is very hard to talk about on IRC as well
05:50	roybatty	this is clojure...sorry
05:50	TEttinger	my religion is lisp
05:50	TEttinger	language holy wars
05:50	roybatty	my religion is static typing
05:50	TEttinger	crusade!
05:51	roybatty	my religion is syntax
05:51	roybatty	what am i doing here
05:51	TEttinger	clojure.typed shows up to merge the two, gets crucified
05:51	roybatty	no, no
05:51	roybatty	no, and another no
05:51	roybatty	i like static for the tools
05:51	roybatty	godamn javascript errors
05:51	TEttinger	if you don't know if god exists, how can he damn javascript errors?
05:52	roybatty	fucking jquery let's $("whatever)
05:52	roybatty	stalin is a loosey goosey javascript asshole
05:52	TEttinger	this is entertaining
05:52	roybatty	i'm not bothering yet?
05:52	roybatty	;)
05:52	TEttinger	nope!
05:52	roybatty	cool
05:53	TEttinger	http://dimethyltryptamine.info/ link this when you find a politics channel, see what happens
05:53	roybatty	TEttinger: : you american?
05:53	TEttinger	yes
05:53	roybatty	ahh
05:53	roybatty	i love semantics, but hate syntax
05:54	roybatty	i want python syntax and static typing and clojure semantics
05:54	roybatty	perfect
05:54	roybatty	then we have perfection
05:54	TEttinger	someone needs to finish salmon. the craziest type system
05:54	roybatty	nobody can read everybody elses clojure
05:54	roybatty	there's no fucking types
05:55	TEttinger	http://salmonpl.net/docs/features/type_system.html
05:55	TEttinger	there are
05:55	roybatty	and we're told we don't need a fucking debugger
05:55	TEttinger	we have a repl
05:55	roybatty	i can't step through
05:56	roybatty	no, no, no
05:56	roybatty	i want a debugger
05:56	roybatty	i'm not hardcore like you guys
05:56	roybatty	either are 99.99% of others
05:56	roybatty	give a brother a break-point and a step
05:56	roybatty	and a inspect
05:56	roybatty	there we go
05:56	TEttinger	but yeah, if you want to make a programming language, the salmon type system would be a good thing to copy
05:57	roybatty	shit, if i could just get a breakpoint in counterclockwise just to check things out
05:57	roybatty	but that's bullshit anyway..
05:57	TEttinger	if I could figue out why light table can't eval a file that would be nice
05:58	roybatty	light table is cool
05:58	roybatty	downloaded 4.0 or whatever a few days ago
05:58	roybatty	but it doesn't give us anything we don't already have
05:59	roybatty	fuck this animation javascript/clojurescript crap
05:59	roybatty	how does it help us in the field
05:59	roybatty	i just love the semantics of clojure
05:59	roybatty	so beautfiul
05:59	roybatty	no OO, no OO!
06:00	roybatty	like Milton in Office Space, No salt!, NO Salt!
06:00	danielszmulewicz	What is more idiomatic regarding passing arguments to a function: a map with keys and values or named parameters?
06:01	roybatty	danielszmulewicz: : without types, nobody knows
06:01	TEttinger	danielszmulewicz, I've seen destructuring a lot to get named params from a map
06:01	roybatty	can i pay some kid in Bulgaria to translate clojure to python syntax?
06:02	roybatty	with gradual typing
06:02	danielszmulewicz	Yes, you can destructure both with just an ampersand difference.
06:03	roybatty	danielszmulewicz: : yeah you think you're cool with your polish last name don't you!
06:03	TEttinger	it is a cool name
06:03	roybatty	how
06:03	roybatty	just kidding
06:03	roybatty	messing around ;)
06:03	danielszmulewicz	thanks! As a matter of fact, I don't think about too much
06:03	roybatty	so many consonants
06:04	danielszmulewicz	it's a jewish/polish name
06:04	roybatty	yeah, you're american
06:04	danielszmulewicz	it means "son of samuel"
06:04	roybatty	it's cool, just busting balls
06:04	danielszmulewicz	not american
06:04	roybatty	israel?
06:04	danielszmulewicz	yup
06:05	roybatty	cool bro
06:05	roybatty	love me a cool israeli brother
06:05	roybatty	i'm american
06:05	danielszmulewicz	you're a bored american
06:06	danielszmulewicz	:-)
06:06	roybatty	;waiting for obamacare to lob some cruise missiles
06:06	roybatty	what a dork
06:06	roybatty	americans are sick of fighting
06:07	roybatty	that's a lie
06:07	roybatty	americans are never sick of fighting
06:07	roybatty	we're american, it's our nature to fight
06:08	TEttinger	danielszmulewicz, this might be handy http://clojure-doc.org/articles/language/functions.html#extra_arguments_aka_named_parameters
06:08	roybatty	back to clojure
06:08	roybatty	why does clojure have the best community?
06:08	roybatty	Rich is a svengali or something
06:10	TEttinger	because clojure is productive and focuses on getting things done, as a language it's pragmatic. also it's really slow, so we were able to steal a bunch of ruby type programmers who were used to slow but wanted more power
06:10	danielszmulewicz	TEttinger: thabks!
06:10	TEttinger	there are caveats to clojure is slow, parts can be fast, but idiomatic clojure is slow
06:12	roybatty	here's the deal
06:12	roybatty	on hacker news and other places
06:12	roybatty	clojure is read-only
06:12	Brand0	just like its data
06:13	roybatty	if we had clojure semantics with python syntax and gradual typing it would rule
06:13	roybatty	and i'll shut up
06:13	roybatty	because i know that's sacrilegi
06:14	roybatty	we can't figure things out without types
06:16	TEttinger	roybatty, people do figure plenty out without types, but definitely use type hints and it gets clearer. and faster
06:17	roybatty	TEttinger: : i understand that
06:17	roybatty	TEttinger: I don't. I have visual studio, C#, and resharper
06:18	TEttinger	roybatty, this IS sacrilege but you can do exactly what you said with racket, by using one of their different syntaxes and type contracts
06:18	roybatty	i let the machine figure out my refactoring for me
06:18	roybatty	with dynamic i can't
06:18	roybatty	with resharper its a given
06:18	TEttinger	oh and roybatty, there are some utility libs for racket to get clojure data types I think
06:18	roybatty	with static i'm guaranteed my refactoring is good
06:19	roybatty	resharper never lies to me:)
06:20	roybatty	well, most of the time she don't lie
06:20	roybatty	i love the non-OO of clojure
06:20	roybatty	which is easy for intellisense
06:20	roybatty	code-completion
06:22	roybatty	brothers...but what hacker news people and me always dig down to is that once you get down to s-expression after s-expression you can't read that without machine help or type
06:23	roybatty	s-expression after s-expression
06:23	roybatty	not
06:23	roybatty	not in a team environment, no way
06:24	roybatty	we need types in the core of the language
06:45	roybatty	bahh,,
06:46	roybatty	if you man up
06:46	roybatty	and lob missiles in
06:46	roybatty	then man up and put man in
06:49	roybatty	man up and lob something at Iran
06:49	roybatty	obama says
06:50	roybatty	iran is a real war
06:51	roybatty	real boots on the ground
06:51	roybatty	sorry clojure, but i know you guys love a little side commentary
06:57	roybatty	straight outta comptan
09:06	grandy	comments on using sqlite in clojure?
09:24	muhoo	grandy: works, last i tried it. warning: jdbc, though.
09:24	grandy	muhoo: any alternatives you'd recommend?
09:31	grandy	anyone have recommendations for similar/better approaches to this: https://clojars.org/validation-clj
09:33	hyPiRion	grandy: perhaps bouncer?
09:33	hyPiRion	https://github.com/leonardoborges/bouncer
09:33	grandy	hyPiRion: thanks!
10:21	sdegutis	Why does nrepl-eval-last-expression (in nrepl.el) lately say "Namespace not found." instead of just doing good stuff?
10:24	sdegutis	Oh, you have to manually do (ns user) in the repl first now.
10:25	grandy	Hello, looking for advice on displaying an incanter chart in a seesaw ui frame ...
10:39	sdegutis	,(+ 1 2 3)
10:39	clojurebot	6
11:12	stanislavsobolev	hello guys, can anybody help me with parsing big xlsx file?
11:13	stanislavsobolev	smart man say to me, that i need using Apache POI streaming API, but i cant find any wrapper for that api, all wrapper build on org.apache.poi.xssf.usermodel
11:13	stanislavsobolev	and not on org.apache.poi.xssf.streaming SXSSFWorkbook
11:58	coventry`	sedgutis: C-c M-n to evaluate namespace form in current buffer.
12:21	jjttjj	anyone know how hard it would be to do an emacs plugin that allows quick toggling between html and hiccup, ie so i can edit html files in hiccup then toggle them back? Is it a realistic first emacs lisp project?
12:23	jjttjj	hiccup + paredit, etc totally spoiled me and I can hardly look at normal html anymore
12:44	seangrov`	jjttjj`: That's a pretty sizeable first emacs project
12:44	seangrov`	I'd definitely use it though
12:46	arrdem	jjttjj`: A while ago I built an html -> hiccup reader only to find that someone else had a better one already. I'm sure you could cobble something together using nrepl, a html reader lib and hiccup itself
12:46	arrdem	jjttjj`: I too would use such a thing heavily
12:50	arrdem	how would you guys represent "mixin" attributes in data?
12:51	sdegutis	arrdem: assoc?
12:52	arrdem	sdegutis: I'm thinking I'll wind up with a :mixins {}
12:52	sdegutis	arrdem: I don't understand what you're asking for or why.
12:52	arrdem	so I'm trying to describe the models in a table top game
12:52	arrdem	for the most part they're all the same with a fixed bunch of stats
12:53	arrdem	but some have "special rules" that apply
12:54	arrdem	so I'm trying to think of a nice way that I can indicate the involvement of such rules while keeping my data structure JSON serializable
12:54	sdegutis	arrdem: I assume by "model" you're talking about an ORM you're using?
12:54	arrdem	sdegutis: nope, physical model like a chess piece
12:56	sdegutis	arrdem: Why not hierarchical data? They can each include a :stats key.
12:57	arrdem	sdegutis: yeah that's probably the right approach
12:57	arrdem
12:58	arrdem	,(= ::cold :cold)
12:58	clojurebot	false
12:59	bbloom	arrdem: ##(prn ::cold :cold)
12:59	lazybot	⇒ :clojure.core/cold :cold nil
13:00	arrdem	,(do (in-ns 'arrdem-derpin) (read-string "::cold"))
13:00	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: read-string in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
13:06	sdegutis	,ns
13:06	clojurebot	#<Namespace sandbox>
13:07	arrdem	,::foo
13:07	clojurebot	:sandbox/foo
13:07	arrdem	##::foo
13:08	arrdem	&::foo
13:08	lazybot	⇒ :clojure.core/foo
13:08	sdegutis	,(find-var 'clojure.core//)
13:08	clojurebot	#'clojure.core//
13:08	sdegutis	,(find-var (symbol "clojure.core//"))
13:08	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No such namespace: clojure.core/>
13:08	sdegutis	wat
13:10	Bronsa	sdegutis: that's weird, it works on my repl
13:10	sdegutis	Bronsa: Clojure 1.5.1 ?
13:11	sdegutis	Fails in my repl.
13:11	Bronsa	1.6.0-SNAPSHOT
13:11	sdegutis	o
13:13	Bronsa	sdegutis: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/88cad2510243289d2bbe28cf8bd14007d9df5fc3#L1L60
13:13	sdegutis	:D
13:14	arrdem	w00t!
13:15	bbloom	Bronsa: that change too waaaayyy too long to show up :-P
13:20	sdegutis	,(find-var (symbol "clojure.core" "/"))
13:20	clojurebot	#'clojure.core//
13:20	sdegutis	Gud nuff.
13:30	sdegutis	TimMc: ping
13:53	sdegutis	,..
13:53	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/.., compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
13:53	sdegutis	,.
13:53	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: . in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
13:53	sdegutis	:(
14:01	llasram	&@#'..
14:01	lazybot	⇒ #<core$_DOT__DOT_ clojure.core$_DOT__DOT_@159e10c>
14:18	callen	gahhhh unhappy people :(((
14:21	seangrov`	Unhappy people?
14:24	mimmo	QUIT
14:26	callen	seangrov`: trying to catch up on Korma issues/PRs this weekend, some are a little derelict and need dealt with quickly.
14:27	callen	seangrov`: people get (and not without reason) unhappy if contributions languish. I feel bad :\|
14:27	konr	Apparently I can't `read-string` some strings, like "\" \\ABC \""
14:28	konr	,(read-string "\" \\ABC \"")
14:28	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unsupported escape character: \A>
14:28	konr	Is there any way around that?
14:28	callen	seangrov`: had a lot of fun last night, thanks for your time and the food/drinks :)
14:29	seangrov`	callen: Same here, very enjoyable.
14:32	sdegutis	konr: what's it supposed to be?
14:36	konr	sdegutis: the string " \ABC "
14:38	brainproxy	https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/KQhMkNl6RDs
14:38	brainproxy	^ mentioned DevDocs last night in channel; if you're so inclined, go vote for Clojure docs to be ported to it
14:38	brainproxy	details in the gg thread
14:41	sdegutis	konr: ##(read-string "\" \\\\ABC \"")
14:41	lazybot	⇒ " \\ABC "
14:56	callen	brainproxy: I'm really not a huge fan of community resources, especially documentation, wikis, etc that the community cannot step in an improve themselves.
14:57	callen	We got in the same exact situation with clojuredocs.org, and lo-and-behold, that damnable Rails app is still on Clojure 1.2 and 1.3
14:57	brainproxy	callen: as i noted in the gg thread, i prefer that too
14:57	sdegutis	I wonder if clojuretip could reasonably be extended to be more like clojuredocs
14:58	callen	sdegutis: no.
14:58	sdegutis	callen: why not?
14:58	brainproxy	that being said, i've found devdocs saving me time (and serving as a learning resource) over and over again, so if i had the clojure documentation in the same tool, it would be all the sweeter
14:59	callen	brainproxy: you...could use clojuredocs.org
14:59	brainproxy	callen: have, still do
14:59	sdegutis	callen: stuck on 1.3
14:59	brainproxy	well that
15:00	callen	sdegutis: that's not a complete roadblock for basic Clojure.
15:00	sdegutis	Okay Mr "you can't make it perfect so don't even try at all"
15:01	sdegutis	Starting on http://clojuredocs.herokuapp.com/ now.
15:01	callen	more of a root cause issue.
15:01	sdegutis	Can you elaborate?
15:01	callen	it's not really worth it unless you address it. 5 whys and all that.
15:02	sdegutis	I am so confused in this conversation.
15:02	sdegutis	Let's start over. Hi, my name's Steven.
15:02	brainproxy	lol
15:03	zanes	brainproxy: If you're on a Mac you might like Dash. It seems pretty similar. http://kapeli.com/dash
15:03	zanes	brainproxy: Already supports Clojure.
15:03	brainproxy	let me put it this way, if the maintainer ports the clojure docs into it, I'll make good use of that and will be grateful
15:03	callen	zanes: I already pointed it out to him, I don't really know why he didn't take it seriously.
15:04	brainproxy	callen: it's fine, it's neat
15:04	zanes	callen: Ach. Sorry; I missed that.
15:05	callen	zanes: no it's fine, this is from...like last night.
15:05	brainproxy	i like DevDocs, i would like to see clojure's docs available in devdocs, if other's feel the same way, just wanted them to know they may be able to help make it happen
15:05	brainproxy	that's all i'm saying
15:05	brainproxy	and I did bookmark dash
15:05	callen	you'd be able to port them yourself if it was a wiki or dash.
15:05	brainproxy	that is a true statement
15:06	seangrov`	callen sdegutis I might take a stab at an implementation of clojuredocs
15:06	seangrov`	Have it hosted on github and allow updates to it via PR's
15:06	sdegutis	seangrov`: https://github.com/sdegutis/clojuredocs/commit/445d44d4c0b9e2e80823e9c1c32937a343ad3ecd
15:06	callen	seangrov`: I'm a wiki nut, is there a good way to discuss it?
15:07	callen	seangrov`: my problem with clojure-doc was that it was github PRs, I'd really like to see something lower friction like EmacsWiki.
15:07	sdegutis	I think I'll have a decent prototype in about 20 mins.
15:07	callen	so that more people actually contribute.
15:07	sdegutis	Oh yeah, I hadn't thought of the examples part of clojuredocs.
15:08	brainproxy	there's also wikemacs, which is mediawiki based
15:08	brainproxy	not nearly as popular though
15:08	sdegutis	I think it's still doable without being a wiki.
15:08	callen	it's not about being "doable", but rather dealing with the problem more conclusively so that we don't get stuck with something like clojuredocs for multiple years again.
15:08	seangrov`	callen: Yeah, makes sense
15:09	callen	seangrov`: so, my idea is to have a split in the wiki, some parts are semi/fully automatically generated, but then sections underneath the auto-generated bits are open to community editing, including examples and the like.
15:09	callen	from there, it's a wiki, so any of the unprotected pages can be fully modified and you can make new content as you'd expect.
15:09	konr	I have clojurewiki.org. It was overrun by spambots, then I turned it off, but perhaps it's time to ressurect it
15:10	callen	konr: I own clojurewiki.com :P
15:10	seangrov`	hah
15:11	callen	seangrov`: I used to be notorious for complaining about template libraries (until we made Selmer)
15:11	callen	seangrov`: the other leg to that chair of complaining for the last couple years has been the lack of a decent wiki.
15:12	seangrov`	callen: emacswiki has been useful, but it's so incredibly messy and at times incoherent that it took me awhile to figure out how to get value from it
15:12	seangrov`	Inline discussions, etc.
15:13	callen	seangrov`: yeah that's why I was imagining having curated content at the top, contributed and refined content in the middle, and discussion at the bottom.
15:13	callen	seangrov`: I never minded the old-fashioned wiki style because I was weaned on c2 wiki.
15:13	konr	Cliki is pretty well-organized ttp://cliki.net/
15:13	konr	http://cliki.net
15:13	callen	it's pretty good, yeah.
15:15	callen	I'm headed out, bbl - looks like my weekend is spoken for :)
15:15	bbloom	dnolen: I remember you telling me about "nanopass". have you read Sarkar's dissertation?
15:15	dnolen	bbloom: haven't
15:16	bbloom	dnolen: took me a while to find it, since the earlier Dybvig paper dominates the results.
15:17	bbloom	dnolen: i'll let you know how it is
15:17	dnolen	bbloom: I chatted some with Andy Keep about Chez, not sure if/when the new nanopass version will see the light of day.
15:18	brainproxy	callen: downloaded dash, will play with it
15:19	bbloom	dnolen: i'm interested both for cljs & for another project. this other thing i'm working on has some input tree structure & several different output targets, so it's starting to get pretty unwieldy. hoping to learn some tricks for dealing with the proliferation of traversal & dispatch logic
15:19	dnolen	bbloom: actually, looky here - http://github.com/akeep/nanopass-framework
15:20	bbloom	dnolen: yeah, already got it started :-)
15:20	bbloom	dnolen: reference [2] was easy to find, but took me a bit to dig up [1]
15:21	bbloom	dnolen: let me know if you want it
15:23	callen	bbloom: reddit.com/r/scholar ?
15:23	bbloom	s/started/stared/
15:23	bbloom	callen: didn't know about that. thanks
15:24	dnolen	bbloom: found it thanks
15:24	callen	bbloom: you seemed to need papers on a regular basis, figured it could help you out.
15:24	bbloom	callen: i usually have very good luck w/ scholar.google.com
15:24	callen	always nice to have a fallback though.
15:25	bbloom	yup
15:26	callen	they're stealing our toys: "Okay, managed to get #clojure http-kit server working from #jruby. Rack adapter will be next. Eager to have fastest http server in jruby! ;D"
15:28	sdegutis	brainproxy, seangrov`: thoughts? http://clojuredocs.herokuapp.com/
15:28	bbloom	callen: i don't understand jruby...
15:28	bbloom	it just seems like a game of kick the can
15:28	callen	bbloom: "lets make libraries thread-safe for a runtime nobody uses while people continue to make thread-unsafe libraries"!
15:28	headius	kick the can?
15:28	bbloom	"oh, your rails app is too slow? rather than factor out components, why don't you just make it less compatible with everything else!"
15:28	callen	bbloom: I think the real reason is you don't have to give up Ruby if you need to use JVM tooling/libraries.
15:28	bbloom	headius: heh, we had this chat on twitter already
15:28	headius	did we?
15:29	brainproxy	sdegutis: what is your goal?
15:30	bbloom	headius: yeah on Jun 24th :-P I won't rehash it here
15:30	headius	did I win?
15:30	bbloom	headius: i think by viewing it as win or lose, you de facto lose :-)
15:30	brainproxy	sdegutis: i like the simplicity of it, btw
15:30	headius	bbloom: or I could be joking
15:31	bbloom	headius: shrug ok
15:31	sdegutis	brainproxy: For starters, to be kind of like clojuredocs.org but for Clojure 1.5.1
15:31	headius	I think the point you guys are missing is that some people like Ruby, but don't like the C runtime
15:32	bbloom	headius: i quite like Ruby/Rails
15:33	mtp	rails was way too magicky for me
15:33	callen	ditto, but I was a Django user. Might be biased.
15:33	mtp	i lean towards frameworks like Sinatra/dancer/flask :p
15:33	bbloom	headius: I just don't think that it's a good move to port large apps to another platform hoping for access to some particular JVM library or marginal performance improvement, at the cost of dramatic ecosystem complexity
15:33	mtp	because i can actually read the code for these things and explain to, e.g., my nontechnical partner{,s}
15:33	mtp	whereas rails immediately jumps off the rails into metametaprogramming
15:34	mtp	:)
15:34	headius	bbloom: we don't recommend porting large apps either...we recommend starting new apps on JRuby
15:34	bbloom	headius: that makes even less sense to me….
15:34	headius	and the ecosystem complexity is no worse than the nonsense people put up with on C Ruby
15:34	bbloom	headius: sure it is. there are tons of libs that don't work on jruby
15:35	headius	funny thing...there's tons of libs that don't work on MRI
15:35	bbloom	headius: … that are written in ruby for MRI? lol
15:35	headius	I don't think it's a good idea to stay on MRI just for libraries when you have a crap garbage collector, no concurrency, and need to spin up two dozen processes just to run a site
15:36	headius	of course what makes even less sense is you being a clojure fan and not getting why JRuby is a good idea
15:36	headius	the JVM is awesome...unless it's JRuby, which is dumb!
15:37	callen	headius: we get lisp, performance, power, ease of use, and the JVM. #FirstWorldLispProblems ?
15:37	callen	we even get to use our own language on the frontend with the same async concurrency library.
15:38	headius	callen: and JRuby users get ruby, performance, power, ease of use, and the JVM
15:38	bbloom	if GC or concurrency are your issues w/ a ruby app, then you're gonna need to ditch rails & tons of other things that actually make ruby interesting (to me)
15:38	callen	headius: no STM though right?
15:38	callen	mutable semantics, so you're still in the tar pit.
15:38	headius	you can use an STM library...I have a gem for JRuby that exposes clojure's
15:38	bbloom	clojure being on the JVM is probably the least interesting bit for me, btw. i could care less & i use very few java libraries
15:38	callen	headius: I'm not trying to diminish your work, it's just that the trade-offs don't make sense for me. I'd rather make a bigger leap from MRI Ruby if I needed srs-mode JVM than JRuby.
15:39	headius	well, I won't get into the mutability versus immutability argument because that's more religious than anything
15:39	callen	I don't think it really is.
15:39	sdegutis	Cool, this already does most of what I need: http://clojuredocs.herokuapp.com/
15:39	bbloom	callen: lol i was gonna say that, but then realized that we're pretty religious about it :-P
15:39	callen	Clojure offers both, but the better defaults make things like core.async possible.
15:39	headius	I'll believe that immutability is the only answer when everything is implemented immutably down to the metal
15:39	headius	until then, it's always a continuum
15:40	callen	headius: that's like saying because houses are made of wood and concrete, we shouldn't use carpet.
15:40	callen	headius: that's a sibling of the ridiculous turing-completeness false-equality arguments people make.
15:40	bbloom	headius: i think JRuby is a neat piece of tech & i think you've done great work on it. From a scientists point of view: good shit! From an engineers point of view: I don't understand why I'd ever choose to use it
15:41	callen	cars have steering wheels, you don't manipulate the rack-and-pinion with your bare hands.
15:41	headius	my argument is not that we shouldn't hold up immutability as the right way to build concurrent programs...my argument is that saying everything should be immutable all the time is ignoring the fact that you can't write everything that way
15:41	callen	headius: I just got done making a point of the fact that Clojure makes mutability available, just not the default
15:41	bbloom	headius: clojure isn't saying that. in fact it's saying THE OPPOSITE of that
15:41	headius	how is it not the default?
15:41	bbloom	headius: clojure is saying that you need to give deeper thought to which things are immutable
15:42	callen	headius: and much of what makes "mutable" semantics usable in Clojure is that the foundation is immutable, enabling STM and trivially thread-safe code.
15:42	bbloom	er i mean which are mutable
15:42	headius	oh, I read that wrong
15:42	headius	sure... and in Ruby immutability is available but not the default
15:42	callen	headius: (def blah (atom {})) (swap! blah assoc :a 1) @blah => {:a 1}
15:42	headius	so where on the continuum is the right place? there is no one place
15:42	bbloom	headius: sure, and i used Hamster.rb a few client projects to great effect
15:42	callen	headius: we only have the STM to express the mutation I just demonstrated because the foundational data structures are immutable
15:42	callen	headius: you are needlessly impoverishing yourself.
15:43	headius	impoverishing myself?
15:43	dnolen	heh, I don't recall this being the Clojure vs. JRuby channel
15:43	callen	you can have the semantics you want, but you can make them more powerful, safer, and more flexible if you use the right, simple foundations for everything.
15:43	headius	dnolen: I didn't start it :-)
15:43	callen	headius: so yes, you are impoverishing yourself. Using mutable foundations and a smattering of immutability on top is eating your corn seed instead of planting it.
15:44	headius	callen: I'm saying there's no one "right" foundation
15:44	callen	I'm not either, but there are better ways than what Ruby does.
15:44	callen	just because we haven't achieved perfection doesn
15:44	headius	I never said there wasn't
15:44	bbloom	I don't wanna argue about whether or not ruby is worthwhile at all
15:44	bbloom	it's got it's place
15:44	callen	doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to improve things.
15:44	headius	indeed...that's the point of JRuby
15:44	headius	thank you for making it for me :-)
15:45	headius	FWIW, I love clojure's principals and lament the lack of pervasive immutability in Ruby on a daily basis
15:46	headius	what I like about working on JRuby is that I'm helping to build a foundation for future versions of Ruby to make better decisions in that regard
15:46	seabre	Immutability as a default in ruby would be nice.
15:46	callen	headius: but what worries me is that I can't tell if you've noticed the many, many things immutable foundations win you beyond simply being a safer default.
15:46	hyPiRion	I'm not even sure what you guys are discussing.
15:46	headius	callen: I'm aware
15:47	headius	are you saying we should just throw Ruby away because it isn't immutable by default?
15:47	bbloom	headius: I guess it boils down to this for me: If I'm gonna start a new project that needs to be fast/concurrent, then Ruby (be it MRI or JRuby) is not an ideal choice because of weak concurrency support in the language and ecosystem
15:47	headius	as bbloom says...Ruby has its place, and there's a lot you can do in Ruby even with the mutability tarpit
15:48	headius	bbloom: sure, I agree in general... but if you're going to start a new project that needs to fast/concurrent and you want to use Ruby, JRuby would be the better of the two choices
15:48	headius	I'm not trying to make JRuby the best language impl...I'm just trying to make it the best Ruby
15:49	bbloom	headius: If I'm porting an application to a faster host, I expect very-high compatibility with low cost of porting, but I don't get that: I get serious library compatibility issues and dramatically slower startup time (and i view fast startup time as a primary reason to use ruby, which rails kills too)
15:49	bbloom	headius: being the better of two choices in a sea of 100s of choices seems moot
15:49	bbloom	particularly when scala & clojure are right next door....
15:49	headius	well...as I said, if you want to use Ruby, there's not 100s of choices
15:50	headius	whether Ruby is the right choice in the first place is a debate I won't get into
15:50	bbloom	headius: and as a polyglot, that makes no sense to me :-P
15:50	callen	is JRuby designed to accommodate mono-language programmers?
15:51	sdegutis	headius: "my argument is that saying everything should be immutable all the time is ignoring the fact that you can't write everything that way" -- heh, you'd be surprised
15:51	headius	callen: it's designed to accommodate Ruby programmers :-)
15:51	bbloom	sdegutis: heh, i've written some pretty large programs that have ONE atom in them :-P
15:51	callen	sdegutis: the issue isn't can/can't, but rather how awkward certain things can be to express in one semantic model vs. another.
15:52	bbloom	entertaining bit: that one client who's day i saved w/ Hamster (immutable collections in Ruby)…. he had his whole team go watch the Value of Values
15:52	sdegutis	Like I said. You'd be surprised.
15:52	bbloom	lol
15:52	s4muel	headius: You should check out the talks 'simple made easy' and 'the value of values' if you haven't already. Might give you some more perspective, aside from being great talks on programming in general
15:53	headius	yep, I've seen them
15:53	bbloom	headius: sorry to pile it on, you are in hostile territory. for all the nice things about ruby and it's ecosystems, many folks here are refugees :-)
15:53	bbloom	headius: we do try to learn from other communities here though
15:53	headius	I've also seen clojure evolve to make it possible to do mutable things within controlled contexts
15:53	headius	anyway, I actually have to run, as fun as this is
15:54	callen	can someone email headius those links?
15:54	sdegutis	headius, callen: I'm well aware that mutability is sometimes necessary for either making things work or making them look good or making them work well. I just know from (tons of) experience that it's a lot less necessary than we think.
15:54	bbloom	he says he's seen them
15:55	callen	oh woops/
15:55	sdegutis	The (very) few times you need mutability in Clojure, you already have plenty of ways to use it, without having to resort to a really insane language.
15:55	dnolen	I think headius is pretty familiar with Clojure's value propositions, he's been in this channel for years :)
15:56	callen	dnolen: on to the rubber hose and ski masks then?
15:57	sdegutis	To me, using Ruby instead of Clojure just to solve problems mutably is like trying to stun someone by shooting them on the very edge of their torso with a real gun instead of just using a stun gun.
15:57	sdegutis	Worst analogy ever, I know, but it's the best I can do right now.
15:57	callen	http://martintrojer.github.io/clojure/2013/09/07/retrofitting-the-reloaded-pattern-into-clojure-projects/
15:58	bbloom	callen: i think that core.async offers an interesting alternative to start/stop style lifestyle management objects
15:59	callen	bbloom: the content was relevant to me because that's what I've been wrangling the last week.
15:59	bbloom	(defn run [c] ((init-here) (loop [] (when whatever (recur))) (shutdown-here)))
16:00	sdegutis	Oh wait, why am I writing a dynamic web app when I could just build a static site generator and deploy to github pages? What a crazy person I am.
16:01	bbloom	callen: try a go-loop instead of LifeCycle protocol. you might like it :-)
16:01	bbloom	basically, you just replace your start with run and your stop with send-shutdown-message
16:02	s4muel	that's an interesting take -- just have a lifecycle controller listening for messages?
16:03	bbloom	s4muel: yeah, basically. think about it. that's how you write collections of processes if you're doing several collaborating C servers, instead of a bunch of java threads
16:04	bbloom	s4muel: the model works great! you fork/join with go (or thread) and <! (or <!!)
16:04	bbloom	s4muel: then you don't need a complex stateful object with various states
16:04	s4muel	that's really interesting. Seems like it would work well distributed too
16:05	bbloom	s4muel: see this: https://code.google.com/p/guava-libraries/wiki/ServiceExplained
16:05	bbloom	there is NEW, STARTING, RUNNING, STOPPING, and TERMINATED states
16:05	bbloom	the reason for new & terminated are to have state without process: so that's input args and return value
16:06	bbloom	starting/running/stopping are basically just before/inside/after a message pump
16:06	bbloom	you've got start, then startAndWait… isn't that just (run-server input) and (<! (run-server input)) ?? :-)
16:07	bbloom	if you care about the transition from initialization to running, you can just send a message
16:17	s4muel	bbloom: any opinion on core.async vs other similar stream/channel libs? I'm doing event processing and kind of evaluating the landscape
16:18	bbloom	s4muel: we've been discussing this a bunch here in irc, you can go back in the logs & see mentions of core.async w/ me, dnolen, ztellman and a few others
16:18	bbloom	s4muel: but in short:
16:18	bbloom	1) write a lot less asynchronous code than you think you have to. just like you need less state with fewer identities than you'd think, you need fewer message pumps / asynchronous devices than you'd think
16:19	bbloom	2) core.async is not about "streams" as lamina & Rx and others are. Streams are a special case of asynchronous messaging for a use case that, in my recent opinion, is less common than general communicating services. Think long and hard if you've actually got a linear stream or some very one-directional pipeline before choosing a stream library over a more general purpose concurrency library
16:20	s4muel	I'm not concerned about the asynchronicity as much as I am about streams and a stream API
16:20	s4muel	Yeah.
16:20	bbloom	s4muel: consider instead replacing your entire stream with functionally pure synchronous code bounded on either end by a consumer/producer pair
16:22	s4muel	Well, the general design plan was essentially -- open tcp, stream messages directly to a dispatch handler that are eventually bounded by network output or writing to disk, in is bounded by incoming events rate
16:23	bbloom	(loop [state init-state] (when-let [x (<! in)] (let [[y state] (pure-function x state)] (>! out y) (recur state))))
16:23	s4muel	and a bunch of pure stream processing functions in the middle
16:23	bbloom	stream processing is inherently impure unless you memoize, which is what lazy sequences basically do
16:23	bbloom	purity requires that you can ask the same question tiwce and be sure you'll get the same answer
16:23	bbloom	purity requires that you can back up and try again and be sure that your two branches will be consistent
16:24	bbloom	streams offer neither
16:27	s4muel	Hrm, what I meant here was stuff like tokenizing input. I can guarantee that the same input will be tokenized to the same output, or that given a message certain fields would be added, etc
16:28	bbloom	s4muel: sure, use lazy-seqs
16:29	s4muel	Not necessarily manipulating the stream primitives like split this stream X into X->Y X->Z. I get what you're saying here in that it's impure because it's not the result of a computation, it's a side effect like 'create another lightweight process'. I think that's what you're saying.
16:41	yedi	so i want to see if a string ends with either .png .gif .jpg... + more defined extensions. What would be an idiomatic way in clojure to test this
16:41	yedi	s/test/do . I know there's the .endswith fn
16:42	bbloom	yedi: just stick the extensions in to a set, then strip off a string with a regex & test set membership
16:43	dissipate_	the lack of in depth literature on clojure macros is really bad
16:43	arrdem	yedi: yep, just take the match of something like #".*(\.\w+)" and follow bbloom's advice
16:44	arrdem	dissipate_: something in particular you're looking for?
16:46	dissipate_	arrdem, a comprehensive book on clojure macros. everyone just keeps referring me to Paul Graham's books on common lisp
16:46	bbloom	dissipate_: that's b/c pg's books on common lisp are excellent & cover macros in extreme depth
16:46	turbopape	I really love intellij IDEA for doing clojure. How come I didn't try it sooner ?
16:46	turbopape	Litterally fell in love. And it is open source (for the community edition)
16:47	bbloom	dissipate_: the biggest differences between clojure's macros and common lisps will be mega easy to understand, if you can understand pg's stuff
16:47	dissipate_	bbloom, but CL macros are not clojure macros, especially because clojure macros deal with the JVM
16:47	bbloom	dissipate_: what does the JVM have to do with clojure's macro system?
16:47	arrdem	dissipate_: not really...
16:48	arrdem	dissipate_: the scope semantics and code generation that PG shows off totally works
16:48	dissipate_	bbloom, watch this talk and find out: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Clojure-Macros
16:48	arrdem	dissipate_: it's just the exact notation for macros that differ
16:49	dissipate_	arrdem, are you saying a book on clojure macros would be worthless?
16:49	bbloom	dissipate_: i don't need to watch that. I understand Clojure's macro system quite deeply.
16:49	bbloom	dissipate_: He's saying that the book would basically be On Lisp with an extra chapter :-P
16:49	arrdem	bbloom: yerp and a few syntax changes
16:50	arrdem	dissipate_: once you grock the idea of code writing code through AST transforms everything else kinda falls away....
16:50	dissipate_	the fact that i have to read a book on another language. that's sad
16:50	arrdem	what part of lisp as a language _familly_ are you missing here?
16:51	dissipate_	arrdem, i want to study clojure, not old lisps
16:52	bbloom	dissipate_: That's like saying "Why are there no books on algorithms in Python?!?!? I want to study python, not algorithmic pseudo code"
16:52	coventry`	dissipate_: I think the CL-specific parts of On Lisp would be near-trivial to absorb if you know clojure well. I read On Lisp knowing only emacs lisp, and found those sections very accessible.
16:53	sdegutis	I've been thinking of having a ClojureDocs clone that would generate static doc pages via Clojure. It would be hosted on github and where examples/see-also's are added via pull requests.
16:53	bbloom	dissipate_: numerous knowledgable people have recommended a particular resource to you, but you write them off & call the community "sad". We've done our part...
16:53	sdegutis	Thoughts?
16:53	dissipate_	bbloom, there are books on algorithms in python
16:54	arrdem	dissipate_: sure, and they add _nothing_ to the original papers or pick your algo textbook in any other language.
16:54	bbloom	dissipate_: sigh forrest => trees
16:54	coventry`	sdegutis: What's the licence on the existing clojuredocs examples? Can you rip them off? It is the examples which really make clojuredocs valuable. Otherwise, might as well read the source.
16:55	sdegutis	coventry`: yeah that was my plan.. didn't check the license
16:55	sdegutis	coventry`: new examples would be added via pull-requests though
16:55	dissipate_	arrdem, actually, there are idioms in languages that significantly impact how algorithms are expressed in those languages
16:55	bbloom	dissipate_: yeah, making it HARDER to learn the algorithms
16:56	arrdem	(inc bbloom)
16:56	lazybot	⇒ 15
16:56	yedi	bbloom: how would I go about stripping up until the final "." with regexes? (I know how i'd do it without them, but I'm tryna wrap my head around working regex in clojure)
16:56	bbloom	dissipate_: learning macros in clojure actually obscures some of the complexities of variable capture b/c clojure has facilities/idioms to minimize the impact of such problems. Learning macros in common lisp is actually easier to get started.
16:56	dissipate_	bbloom, your claim is that macros are independent of language implementation?
16:57	bbloom	dissipate_: my claim is that there are underlying ideas that can be understood in any language and PG covers them very well…. in common lisp
16:57	coventry`	sdegutis: Looks like they make it easy to pull the examples out: https://github.com/zk/clojuredocs/downloads
16:57	bbloom	dissipate_: you wouldn't repaint the sistine chapel because you don't like the color of the front door
16:57	arrdem	yedi: (re-find #".*(\.\w+)" "foo.bar.baz")
16:58	dissipate_	bbloom, BTW, the talk i linked you to specifically mentions an issue the JVM causes with macros, namely limits on the number of arguments to java methods.
16:58	yedi	&(re-find #".*(\.\w+)" "foo.bar.baz")
16:58	lazybot	⇒ ["foo.bar.baz" ".baz"]
16:58	arrdem	yedi: the .* matches the entire string lazily, and the (\.\w+) group matches the _last_ dot in the string and all trailing word characters
16:59	bbloom	dissipate_: again, that's missing the forest for the trees. I could have the same limitation in a particular common lisp implementation. Nevermind the fact that I've never experienced that problem in practice & i've written A LOT of macros
17:00	dissipate_	bbloom, well, maybe you should watch the talk and see the example.
17:00	coventry`	You can find translations into clojure of most of PG's early macros, anyway, if you google "on-lisp clojure."
17:01	bbloom	dissipate_: I don't need to. I know precisely what you're referring to
17:02	dissipate_	coventry`, how many people trying to learn clojure are going to google common lisp?
17:02	arrdem	dissipate_: anyone who takes our advice, which you seem unwilling to do
17:02	dissipate_	i know i haven't
17:02	bbloom	dissipate_: how many people trying to learn macros are gonna google macros?
17:03	dissipate_	arrdem, i will take your advice
17:04	dissipate_	but only begrudgingly. now i have to buy another book that isn't even on clojure.
17:04	bbloom	On Lisp is free
17:04	bbloom	http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisp.html
17:04	bbloom	dissipate_: if you bothered to look at all, you'd have discovered that
17:04	coventry`	The bandwidth is a killer, though.
17:04	sdegutis	bbloom: I've had a heard time swallowing the "it's never been a problem for me in practice" argument ever since I tried Go and realized they don't/won't have filter/map/reduce/etc.
17:05	bbloom	sdegutis: the issue he's referring to is that clojure has a max EXPLICIT argument limit
17:05	sdegutis	LOL
17:05	bbloom	sdegutis: in practice, it's not an issue b/c you can use apply, which works with extremely large lazy sequences
17:05	arrdem	sdegutis: THANK YOU
17:05	bbloom	sdegutis: it can SOMETIMES be an issue in macros if you are generating a very long list
17:05	bbloom	sdegutis: but you can trivially replace `(f ~@args) with `(apply f [~@args])
17:06	bbloom	sdegutis: but I've never written such a macro that would need such craziness :-P
17:07	technomancy	sdegutis: why doesn't Go have map/reduce?
17:08	dissipate_	arrdem, are you saying i can start reading 'on lisp' after learning clojure? seems like i would probably have to read an intro book on common lisp first
17:08	sdegutis	technomancy: "just use a for loop"
17:09	technomancy	sdegutis: I... but...
17:09	seabre	even php has map/reduce
17:09	technomancy	sdegutis: does it have lambda?
17:09	arrdem	seabre: now there's damning with faint praise
17:09	bbloom	dissipate_: page V, "Preface", first four words: "This book is intended for"
17:09	sdegutis	technomancy: a type-strict one
17:09	seabre	AND closures
17:10	technomancy	sdegutis: because of no generics? or are generics just for collections?
17:10	sdegutis	technomancy: no generics
17:10	bbloom	technomancy: Go has this weird relationship w/ higher order functions
17:10	sdegutis	technomancy: "in practice I've never missed them"
17:10	coventry`	dissipate_: Speaking as someone who read it without knowing common lisp, I can say with a fair degree of confidence that basic understanding of clojure will be enough. On Lisp explicitly tries to give a self-contained treatment of Common Lisp.
17:11	dissipate_	bbloom, how do you know he isn't implying "common lisp" when he says "lisp"?
17:11	sdegutis	technomancy: half this page is dedicated to mutual-back-slapping on being okay without generics: http://golang.cat-v.org/quotes
17:11	sdegutis	Ignore the quote with my name in it, that was ages ago. I'm a better man now.
17:11	technomancy	sdegutis: "if I keep telling myself everything is OK, eventually I'll believe it"
17:11	bbloom	dissipate_: because I've read the fucking book and I'm telling you, as an expert in both macros and the implementation of Clojure, it's a good book from which you will learn a lot about all sorts of lisps and macros
17:12	technomancy	out of curiosity, are generics specific to collections, or is that just a java-ism?
17:13	technomancy	(or is it not even a java-ism? I don't know java)
17:13	bbloom	technomancy: sdegutis: the bigger thing is that side effects and higher order operations don't mix. so the fact that you'd have a Map function would make you try to send or receive a message in there & that would be bad
17:13	sdegutis	technomancy: I don't think it's specific to collections. You can have a custom type that has an instance variable of a given type.
17:13	bbloom	Go is a systems language by default & a logic language only by necessity
17:13	bbloom	which is the opposite of Clojure & core.async :-P
17:13	sdegutis	:)
17:13	technomancy	so like type variables in OCaml would be a kind of generics?
17:13	sdegutis	technomancy: wait, hold on now, am I being trololololed?
17:14	sdegutis	http://trololololololololololo.com/
17:14	technomancy	sdegutis: I am a type noob
17:14	technomancy	three weeks in
17:14	bbloom	technomancy: lol
17:14	arrdem	(inc sdegutis)
17:14	lazybot	⇒ 5
17:14	sdegutis	Oh sweet, this nick must be lucky, I have way more karma than when I was futile.
17:14	sdegutis	$karma futile
17:14	lazybot	futile has karma 2.
17:15	technomancy	the "I like that Go forces you to clean up little messes" guy is a co-worker =\
17:15	sdegutis	Heroku's got all kinds.
17:16	dissipate_	i haven't heard of any theoretical language breakthroughs in Go. if it's a better C++, then more power to it.
17:16	bbloom	technomancy: is that the comment about unused variables?
17:16	technomancy	bbloom: yeah
17:17	sdegutis	Oh man. I hate that feature.
17:17	bbloom	technomancy: reminds me of some build failures I've seen where my java import statements weren't in alphabetical order
17:17	sdegutis	One of the most annoying aspects of Go.
17:17	dissipate_	bbloom, why not use haskell as a systems language?
17:17	bbloom	dissipate_: OK, at this point I'm quite certain you're a troll
17:17	sdegutis	dissipate_: why not use C?
17:17	arrdem	sdegutis: bbloom[-1]
17:18	sdegutis	arrdem: undefined symbol bbloom
17:19	dissipate_	bbloom, who isn't using google now? http://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/systems-programming-in-haskell.html
17:20	arrdem	sdegutis: I'm failing to come up with an idiomatic fetch of "bbloom" from "#clojure" referencing send -1 :/
17:20	bbloom	dissipate_: Oh, Hey, Haskell has an FFI. I didn't know! This changes everyting!
17:20	bbloom	s/apologies/apologizes/
17:20	Raynes	Let's call out everyone all at once! That'll go over well!
17:21	Raynes	Also, that's not like callen.
17:21	Raynes	callen isn't into passive aggression and sarcasm.
17:23	dissipate_	sdegutis, C isn't expressive
17:23	Mendor\|scr	newbie's question: what is the difference between 'binding' and 'let'? They looks like doing same things
17:24	bbloom	Mendor\|scr: binding=dynamic, let=lexical
17:24	bbloom	Mendor\|scr: let assigns values to names in a particular space, where as binding assigns values to names for a span of time
17:25	Mendor\|scr	bbloom: thank you
17:25	arrdem	dissipate_: I beg to differ, have you checked out libchello?
17:26	dissipate_	arrdem, no, looks interesting though.
17:26	dissipate_	arrdem, can you give any good reason not to do systems programming in haskell?
17:27	arrdem	dissipate_: the rest of my embedded OS team would crucify me?
17:27	arrdem	dissipate_: I would have to port 4.1M lines of C to Haskell?
17:28	arrdem	dissipate_: I would have to deal with Haskell?
17:28	dissipate_	arrdem, and would you not have to do the same with Go?
17:34	Raynes	arrdem: You just got LOGIC'D
17:35	arrdem	Raynes: I just got asked about a language I don't write... my language learning latency is being incurred on the answer
17:42	coventry`	It seems that the :reload keyword to (require) causes reloading of all namespaces. If I just want one namespace reloaded, should I do that in a separate require?
17:44	coventry`	(causes reloading of all (require)d namespaces, that is.)
17:44	sdegutis	dissipate_: C is perfectly expressive
17:44	dissipate_	sdegutis, you mean compared to asm?
17:45	sdegutis	dissipate_: you just need to learn how to express yourself in C first, that's all
17:45	hyPiRion	Swearjure is perfectly expressive too. It's turing complete and all that.
17:45	arrdem	Raynes: ^ dat logic yo
17:45	amalloy	arrdem: language learning latency combined with haskell reminds me of http://ro-che.info/ccc/11.html
17:46	arrdem	(inc amalloy) ;; day made
17:46	lazybot	⇒ 71
17:47	dissipate_	sdegutis, i did embedded linux development in C for a short while. wasn't expressive enough for me.
17:47	benkay	,(+ 1 2)
17:47	clojurebot	3
17:47	bbloom	amalloy: nice.
17:48	amalloy	bbloom: credit goes to brehaut (i think?), who's linked http://ro-che.info/ccc/12.html a few times
17:48	bbloom	amalloy: i also enjoy the first/prev/current/next/last navigators
17:48	sdegutis	,(defmacro with-all-due-respect [& body] `(binding [in (java.io.StringReader. "")] ~@body))
17:48	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
17:48	sdegutis	##(defmacro with-all-due-respect [& body] `(binding [in (java.io.StringReader. "")] ~@body))
17:48	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
17:49	sdegutis	Meh, gud nuff.
17:49	dissipate_	amalloy, the funny thing about that comic is: who is hiring for haskell positions in the first place? :P
17:51	arrdem	http://ro-che.info/ccc/20.html
17:51	bbloom	arrdem: zing.
17:53	sdegutis	ouch, http://ro-che.info/ccc/17.html
17:53	sdegutis	Do not want.
17:53	bbloom	sdegutis: I think 9/10 of the people in that little red/green section are in this room :-P
17:54	sdegutis	But.. but.. Clojure is dynamically typed!
17:54	bbloom	sdegutis: but people in this room understand type theory!
17:54	sdegutis	Oh.
17:55	hyPiRion	I don't believe in the type theory. It's just a theory, it's not proven or anything.
17:56	hyPiRion	Hm, I wonder if such arguments would actually work in IT?
17:56	sdegutis	Just like set theory!
17:57	sdegutis	Anyway I really liked that with-all-due-respect joke.
17:57	sdegutis	I should make a website for it.
18:03	wink	I think the diagram is off a little
18:03	wink	I've hardly seen any mathematicians argue for typing in programming :P
18:04	wink	so the blue/red crossover should be smaller imho
18:05	wink	then again I think I read that blog post linked on the bottom already
18:07	bbloom	wink: we just discussed that article in here yesterday
18:07	wink	bbloom: I missed that, I meant.. a lot earlier, maybe 2011 :)
18:09	sdegutis	Can anyone recommend Java Swing (O'Reilly) vs The Definitive Guide to Java Swing (Apress)?
18:20	sdegutis	Oh never mind, JavaFX seems to be the new hotness.
18:20	arrdem	devn: sleeping on your keyboard is awesome, isn't it?
18:23	llasram	arrdem: devn's cat apparently thinks so
18:23	llasram	devn: We've all been there (where "all" is cat-owners)
18:23	arrdem	llasram: that or the above cat has learned C-p in which case I'm impressed
18:24	devn	i was impressed too
18:24	devn	it was kind of amazing how many apps had text in them
18:24	devn	i started looking through my terminal windows filled with random text to make sure she didn't commit some code and git push
18:25	devn	moving through those tab windows requires Cmd + {
18:25	devn	i feel like she's learning how this machine works
18:28	wink	devn: I can only suggest xmonad, changing windows is not so easy anymore
18:29	devn	M-j?
18:29	wink	well, it's only one workspace. so Super-0-9 and then Super-jk yes
18:29	devn	sure, but then i get back and see 200 spawned terminals
18:30	devn	all with scary text in them
18:30	devn	S-RET * 1000000000
18:30	arrdem	devn: in one lurks an `rm -rf /`
18:32	gfredericks	does anybody have opinions about enhancing pre/post conditions to allow an error msg in the metadata?
18:32	sinistersnare	do you guys know if asm.js is a viable backend for cljs? i know that asm.js is basically statically typed, so maybe it should be for core.typed clojurescript
18:32	arrdem	gfredericks: please elaborate
18:32	bbloom	sinistersnare: how familiar with asm.js are you?
18:32	sinistersnare	none! im just curious :p
18:33	bbloom	sinistersnare: you should go read up on it. the spec is like a 1 pager, then you'll probably have a much different question :-)
18:33	sinistersnare	:D ok ill see then
18:33	gfredericks	arrdem: I often want to use pre/post conditions but the fact that the resulting error message is likely unhelpful compels me to not use them or do a manual assert in the function body
18:33	sinistersnare	http://asmjs.org/spec/latest/ 1 page? o.O
18:34	gfredericks	arrdem: so if I could (fn [a] {:pre [^{:msg "arg to this fn must be positive"} (pos? a)]} ...)
18:34	gfredericks	then I would use them a lot more often
18:34	bbloom	sinistersnare: it seams to have grown :-) h/o 1 sec
18:34	gfredericks	and obviously anything along those lines is fully backwards compatible
18:34	gfredericks	another option is a vector pair
18:34	arrdem	gfredericks: yerp by dint of abusing reader metadata
18:34	gfredericks	which is technically backward-breaking but not for significant things
18:34	sinistersnare	i think i realize that its for more unsafe langauges, and is supposed to be c/c++ like, but isnt it very efficient, therefore a good idea? idk...
18:35	bbloom	sinistersnare: http://ejohn.org/blog/asmjs-javascript-compile-target/ is a decent intro
18:35	gfredericks	arrdem: what is the principle of reader metadata usage by which that is an abuse?
18:35	bbloom	sinistersnare: in short, it's more like C with bad syntax
18:35	bbloom	sinistersnare: we'd have to write a VM too
18:35	bbloom	sinistersnare: you basically just get arrays of integers & can use other integers as pointers
18:35	arrdem	gfredericks: it's not an abuse at all... but that's a cute way to sneak in the string.
18:35	sinistersnare	oh ok, so its not as viable as just changing the compile target?
18:36	arrdem	gfredericks: it's been too long since I've used :pre and :post to comment but in theory I'm a fan
18:36	gfredericks	arrdem: does [(pos? a) "a must be positive"] seem cleaner?
18:36	sinistersnare	i mean thats a task in itself, but not just comforming to it? im just confused i guess
18:36	SegFaultAX	gfredericks: Did you get my note from earlier?
18:36	gfredericks	SegFaultAX: prolly not lemme look
18:36	bbloom	sinistersnare: like i said, you should go read up on asm.js & then it will be much clearer. it's probably not what you think it is
18:37	SegFaultAX	gfredericks: Oh I just was letting you know that I really enjoyed your talk. Most of it was not new content for me, but one thing I really appreciated was how you wrote out all the macros longhand before introducing the awesomeness of syntax quote.
18:37	gfredericks	SegFaultAX: oh cool -- thanks for the feedback
18:37	sinistersnare	true, i figured there was a miscommunication somewhere; i knew it wouldnt be some end all be all superfast javascript. thanks :)
18:37	bbloom	sinistersnare: there is no garbage collection, or object system, or anything like that. it's literally just byte buffers
18:37	sinistersnare	ok that makes more sense
18:37	coventry`	gfredericks, SegFaultAX: I skimmed through it today. It was good.
18:37	gfredericks	SegFaultAX: yeah I feel like macros and syntax-quote are both manageable independently, but if you do them at the same time the odds are against you
18:38	SegFaultAX	gfredericks: Totally. I think the biggest hurdle for most people (from my experience) is getting your head around the fact that you can do things at compile time.
18:38	irctc	I'm a newbie and just started studying books (clojure in Action and Prog Clojure). Both books does not use ^{ dynamic : true } in their samples but samples does not work. I have to put that declaration for defn to make them work for binding. Do anyone knows why those books fail to mention this or am I making a mistake. Thanks.
18:39	gfredericks	SegFaultAX: yeah separating the times is a big mental leap
18:39	yedi	when using elastisch, is there a way to see the query json that esd/search sense to the ES api?
18:39	SegFaultAX	Most of the time that's a closed phase, the compiler is a black box until run time.
18:39	gfredericks	SegFaultAX: but if you talk about it that way it sounds as if it can only be terribly hard; not that you're just writing regular code and dealing with familiar data
18:39	SegFaultAX	gfredericks: Second biggest hurdle is the idea of processing unevaluated lisp forms. There just isn't really anything like it in languages that don't support proper first class macros.
18:39	llasram	irctc: That was a change in... Clojure 1.3? Before then all vars were dynamic. So probably older books
18:40	gfredericks	SegFaultAX: yeah that's why I spent so much time up front playing with quote and eval
18:40	arrdem	gfredericks: ah ok just re-read fogus's pre/post post and my old code
18:40	SegFaultAX	gfredericks: The whole "code is just data" thing is a huge hurdle for some.
18:40	arrdem	gfredericks: I like what you're doing in that second one
18:40	arrdem	,(true? "foo")
18:40	clojurebot	false
18:40	SegFaultAX	gfredericks: Anyway, great work. I look forward to your future talks. :)
18:40	gfredericks	arrdem: it's technically breaking but you wouldn't have used a vector like that anyhow since it's trivially truthy
18:40	irctc	I see. So I should be typing that each time, right? Do you do that for that purpose?
18:40	gfredericks	SegFaultAX: the swearjure talk comes out in a month or two or something
18:41	coventry`	gfredericks: Loved the ->> quarter-quine.
18:41	gfredericks	coventry`: ha, I think that was due to TimMc
18:41	SegFaultAX	gfredericks: Oh that ought to be interesting.
18:41	llasram	irctc: Each time you want to use `binding` to change value of a var, yes. But those times should be pretty close to "never" in practice
18:41	gfredericks	coventry`: also fixed in 1.6
18:42	dissipate_	gfredericks, asm.js, another ridiculous project spawned from the fact that browsers should run bytecode, not javascript.
18:42	SegFaultAX	dissipate_: Haven't you heard? Javascript is the bytecode of the internet!
18:43	gfredericks	JavaScript is the node.js of the internet
18:43	arrdem	gfredericks: wat
18:43	gfredericks	the wagon wheel was the internet of the 19th century
18:44	arrdem	gfredericks: is that change really breaking?
18:44	arrdem	gfredericks: I'm playing with fogus's demo and haven't smashed 1.5.1 yet...
18:44	gfredericks	arrdem: sure; (fn [a] {:pre [[false "foo"]]} a)
18:45	dissipate_	SegFaultAX, i know it is. why not just have browsers run byte code so you could compile from any language X to that bytecode and not have to go through JS?
18:45	gfredericks	arrdem: ^ always succeeds in current code, always fails in my proposed version
18:45	irctc	llasram: I understand that dynamic binding can make the code a hairball easily if not used sparingly, however within the context of writing scaffolding code like test it makes sense to use dynamic. It is just weird to have to type that when I need it. Is there a special "declare" to do that so that my test code utilize this behaviour. Probably this is not how the "professionals" are doing it.
18:45	arrdem	gfredericks: I don't follow why that will always bomb for you.
18:46	arrdem	gfredericks: that it succeeds currently is trivial
18:46	llasram	irctc: Oh, for tests etc just use `with-redefs`. That changes the root binding of vars within the dynamic scope of the `with-redefs`.
18:46	gfredericks	arrdem: because the left half of the pair is always falsy
18:46	gfredericks	that it fails in my version (as it should) is also trivial
18:47	arrdem	gfredericks: ah so you are proposing to unpack vector pairs into [pred msg]
18:47	gfredericks	arrdem: yes exactly
18:47	arrdem	s/into/of the form/
18:47	llasram	irctc: (without requiring the var to be dynamically thread-locally re-bindable)
18:47	gfredericks	arrdem: which doesn't "abuse" metadata but is technically (though not importantly) breaking
18:48	arrdem	gfredericks: could one not also write [(number? x) "x must be a number" true "how did that fail"]
18:48	arrdem	gfredericks: that would seem to fit more with the let semantics
18:49	dissipate_	"What is the goal of Asm.js? Who do you see as the target audience for the project? Our goal is to make the open web a compelling virtual machine, a target for compiling other languages and platforms.
18:49	arrdem	gfredericks: but would also be breaking.... hum...
18:49	dissipate_	hilarious. absolutely hilarious.
18:50	arrdem	gfredericks: ok. I agree with your metadata approach as the best implementation but I hold that the optional trailing string would be nicer to read.
18:51	irctc	llasram: I changed the code to use with-redefs instead of binding, it worked like a charm. Thanks.
18:51	llasram	irctc: np!
18:52	gfredericks	arrdem: I'm gonna send an email to clojure-dev
18:52	gfredericks	arrdem: thanks for feedback
18:53	arrdem	gfredericks: np. who do I need to bug to get verified as a list subscriber?
18:54	bbloom	I use my Windows VM like once every 2 months, but somehow everytime, Windows seems to degrade…. this time, after about 3 minutes of use, it just goes to a black screen
18:55	callen	bbloom: Windows is one big experiment in software entropy.
18:55	SegFaultAX	s/windows/operating systems/
18:55	gfredericks	arrdem: man I have no idea; it's been a while. you've "applied" or something?
18:55	bbloom	I must say, I am impressed with Window 8s boot times, especially in my VM
18:56	Pupnik_	solar radiation corrupting your install
18:57	arrdem	gfredericks: yerp. I mean I'm kinda the lurnking script kiddie not a core contributor but I'm interested in what's changing so....
18:57	gfredericks	arrdem: huh; is there not some read-only subscription mechanism that doesn't require approval?
18:58	arrdem	gfredericks: doesn't seem to be... besides making googling clj-dev part of my daily news read
19:08	gfredericks	https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure-dev/eNK9UZ5HklI
19:14	crocket	Does clojure have very little flaws to overcome?
19:14	crocket	in the langauge itself
19:15	llasram	crocket: I'm not sure what sort of answer you expect, asking in #clojure :-)
19:16	llasram	It's practically perfect in every way!
19:16	crocket	hmm
19:16	crocket	PHP people say clojure already has a flaw which is 'nil'.
19:16	gfredericks	it's not a very precise question
19:16	llasram	That's cool. I think PHP has a flaw which is 'PHP'
19:16	gfredericks	"to overcome" means to overcome by future language development? or by the programmer?
19:16	nightfly	PHP people judging another langauge?
19:16	crocket	I say PHP has "global" and "use" keywords.
19:17	crocket	gfredericks, by the programmer
19:17	gfredericks	there are plenty of little details and gotchas that could be different/better
19:17	gfredericks	it's the higher-level design that makes it really compelling
19:17	wkelly	doesn't php have null?
19:17	dnolen	wkelly: it does
19:17	wkelly	I am confused by this alleged criticism
19:18	crocket	I haven't learned clojuer yet. How is 'nil' a flaw?
19:18	llasram	crocket: The fundamental design of the language can make it difficult to provide sensible error messages for some kinds of structural errors. That's the biggest "flaw" for me
19:18	llasram	(not really a flaw -- a decision, with trade-offs)
19:19	crocket	llasram, Do you mean fundamental design flaws?
19:19	dnolen	crocket: if it's flaw it's precisely in the same way that null is a flaw in PHP
19:20	dnolen	crocket: whatever you don't like about null in PHP is true for nil in Clojur
19:20	dnolen	e
19:20	wkelly	crocket: a lot of people from languages with fancy type systems that can detect at compile time whether a null can get passed around, which can help to avoid lots of bugs that arise from failing to consider the special case of null
19:20	wkelly	that wasn't really a great sentence :P
19:20	pmonks	Note: PHP is not one of those languages. ;-)
19:21	crocket	wkelly, That includes clojure.
19:21	crocket	Anyway
19:21	SegFaultAX	crocket: Hoare has already appologized profusely for inventing null, what more do you want?
19:21	crocket	I heard clojure has very little flaws to overcome in the language itself.
19:21	SegFaultAX	crocket: That's entirely subjective, I think.
19:22	coventry`	Is the signature for the special form case* documented anywhere?
19:23	sontek	Are there any good 'hello world' tutorials for doing clojure web apps? Whats a good default lib to start with for handling basic web requests? Good default webserver?
19:24	wkelly	crocket: this is the sensible null argument (as opposed to the php criticism :P): https://ocaml.janestreet.com/?q=node/78
19:24	dnolen	sontek: people like ring with jetty
19:25	sontek	dnolen: I'll check them out, thanks!
19:25	dnolen	sontek: http://mmcgrana.github.io/2010/03/clojure-web-development-ring.html
19:26	SegFaultAX	sontek: Check out luminus
19:26	dnolen	sontek: there are probably bits of this that need to be updated
19:27	SegFaultAX	sontek: Luminus will introduce you to a great many libraries commonly used in Clojure web dev including ring, compojure, and jetty.
19:27	dissipate_	wkelly, one rule of good function design is to not return nulls
19:27	sontek	Is there a decent template framework as well?
19:28	dnolen	sontek: http://www.luminusweb.net/
19:29	sinistersnare	lunimus uses the selmer template language
19:29	SegFaultAX	Plus you can check out enlive and hiccup if that's your cup of tea.
19:31	mheld	so. do I have to do anything crazy to get static resources set up with luminus?
19:31	mheld	it doesn't look like my instance is able to find my static resources (in like resources/public/css/)
19:32	arrdem	so just for my entertainment, who all has submitted a CA to Rich?
19:32	sontek	In general, static resources should usually be served via CDN or server like nginx, its usually not good to server from your app server
19:32	gfredericks	arrdem: http://clojure.org/contributing
19:32	mheld	sontek: I'm aware
19:32	mheld	sontek: but I'm not pushing my stuff to a CDN for development
19:32	arrdem	gfredericks: thank you.....
19:33	gfredericks	arrdem: I certainly wouldn't have thought to look there
19:33	arrdem	gfredericks: of course not, especially not after I clicked the CA link at the top of the page...
19:34	coventry`	What is the :tag metadata for? As in (with-meta (gensym) {:tag Object}) in the case macro?
19:34	coventry`	Oh, it's just some type indication.
19:35	gfredericks	coventry`: yeah that's how type-hints work
19:35	coventry`	gfredericks: Thanks.
19:36	SegFaultAX	mheld: Luminus doesn't really do anything. It's just a collection of libraries.
19:36	SegFaultAX	mheld: Anyway, read the compojure docs.
19:37	SegFaultAX	sontek: That's just not true. Like, at all.
19:42	sontek	SegFaultAX: Maybe the clojure community is different than what I'm used to, but in my experience serving static assets via an appserver is always slower
19:43	nightfly	Slower, but not always slow enough to matter
19:43	SegFaultAX	sontek: Jetty serves static assets well enough for most small sites. nginx or varnish in from of it can speed it up dramatically.
19:44	arrdem	is fogus's trammel depricated for core.contracts?
19:44	SegFaultAX	In front*
19:44	mheld	SegFaultAX: yeah, I'm not finding anything of value
19:44	sontek	Do most of the db libraries in clojure take advantage of core.async?
19:45	SegFaultAX	sontek: None as far as I'm aware.
19:45	SegFaultAX	mheld: compojure.core/resources isn't what you're looking for?
19:45	sontek	so if you wanted to do something like a websocket request inside ring, the calls to the DB are still going to block?
19:46	SegFaultAX	mheld: Whoops, that's in compojure.route
19:46	sontek	i'm coming from python, so my worries might not be valid on something like clojure + jvm
19:46	mheld	SegFaultAX: yeah, I'm using it but nothing's coming out of resources/public
19:46	sontek	In python, to do async we use coroutines but need to make sure we aren't blocking or we'll eatup all our workers
19:47	SegFaultAX	sontek: Python doesn't have coroutines.
19:47	SegFaultAX	Generators are not coroutines, rather.
19:47	SegFaultAX	mheld: Paste your routes.
19:47	bbloom	SegFaultAX: doesn't python have "send" now back for iterators?
19:48	SegFaultAX	bbloom: It always has, that's not what makes them not coroutines.
19:49	mheld	SegFaultAX: HA, figured it out -- turns out that it looks at :resource-paths in project.clj only
19:49	mheld	which.. makes sense
19:49	bbloom	SegFaultAX: a bidirectional generalization of generators has been proven to be equivilant to delimited continuations, and hence coroutines: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4349
19:49	mheld	SegFaultAX: (was using some local jars)
19:49	SegFaultAX	bbloom: You can still only yield from the top-level frame.
19:50	SegFaultAX	bbloom: Generators are degenerate coroutines.
19:50	bbloom	SegFaultAX: right, so they are lexical in extent, just like core.async
19:51	SegFaultAX	bbloom: Ok? They still aren't full coroutines.
19:51	bbloom	SegFaultAX: eh, ok now you added the word "full" :-P
19:51	SegFaultAX	It's a pointless modifier.
19:51	SegFaultAX	They aren't coroutines.
19:52	sontek	SegFaultAX: Have you heard of gevent?
19:52	SegFaultAX	sontek: Sure.
19:52	mheld	I don't know what the original value is for :resource-paths ["resources/jars/*"] is... which would be really helpful
19:52	mheld	anybody know?
19:52	sontek	SegFaultAX: gevent enabled you to do coroutines in python
19:52	sontek	SegFaultAX: which is what I'm talking about
19:53	SegFaultAX	sontek: That's not part of Python, though.
19:53	SegFaultAX	Not cpython anyway.
19:53	sontek	SegFaultAX: It sits on top of python and its how you do stuff like long running requests in python
19:53	sontek	SegFaultAX: Python is just as much about the libraries around it as it is the core built-in
19:54	sontek	SegFaultAX: the selling point of python isn't cpython, its gevent, numpy, sqlalchemy, etc
19:54	SegFaultAX	sontek: gevent is an extension module for Python.
19:56	SegFaultAX	sontek: The selling point for Python is different for each buyer. I use python these days mostly for sysadmin stuff (in place of perl, which is what I used to use)
19:56	sontek	SegFaultAX: Does the clojure community try to stick with only using the core library instead of the opensource libraries built on top of it?
19:56	SegFaultAX	sontek: You're missing the point. Cpython lacks coroutines. I didn't say there weren't libraries to add them. I didn't say there weren't alternative implementations of Python that has them built in. But the language by definition lacks them.
19:57	sontek	SegFaultAX: sysadmin stuff also benefits from the opensource community around it. Ansible, Salt, etc
19:57	SegFaultAX	sontek: I don't know what you're talking about anymore.
19:57	sontek	SegFaultAX: Well, I said I do coroutines in python and you said I can't ;)
19:57	SegFaultAX	sontek: No, I didn't.
19:58	sontek	so, back to the original question...
19:58	sontek	so if you wanted to do something like a websocket request inside ring, the calls to the DB are still going to block? How do you handle this in clojure?
19:58	sontek	In python, to do async we use coroutines but need to make sure we aren't blocking or we'll eatup all our workers
19:58	dnolen	sontek: it's unsolveable problem, if the think is blocking it's blocking you can't magically fix it.
19:58	sontek	^ this isn't saying "do async using only the core libraries in cpython"
19:59	dnolen	s/think/thing
19:59	sontek	dnolen: In python we patch the db libraries to use "green threads" which are coroutines to make sure they don't block
19:59	SegFaultAX	sontek: Your question is also fundamentally flawed.
19:59	sontek	dnolen: was wondering if the same could be done in clojure
20:00	sontek	using core.async
20:00	sontek	but since python also has horrible threading, maybe with true threads and havine async built-in, it might not matter
20:00	coventry`	Anyone got some examples of what the shift, mask and skip-check arguments to case* mean? I don't think I need to know for my project, but am curious.
20:00	llasram	sontek: That's not the approach of core.async, but something similar is possible on the JVM: http://blog.paralleluniverse.co/post/49445260575/quasar-pulsar
20:01	SegFaultAX	sontek: That's the thing, many Java webservers are threaded. So the blocking issue doesn't matter since you're only blocking that one thread for that one request.
20:01	SegFaultAX	(Not to say that threaded servers don't have other issues)
20:01	dnolen	sontek: what core.async gives you are knobs, so you can say drop this request instead of running out of resources.
20:02	sontek	ok, that makes sense
20:03	sontek	I'll just load up some sample apps and test to see, I'm assuming most of what I deal with for concurrency in python doesn't matter with a language that doesn't have a global interpreter lock
20:05	SegFaultAX	sontek: That's what makes core.async awesome compared to eg gevent or celluloid. We get coroutines /and/ we get to multiplex them over multiple cores since we have proper threading.
20:06	SegFaultAX	Well that, and that works in clojurescript and clojure seemlessly.
20:07	sontek	The future!
20:07	seangrov`	Is there a book that's worthwhile for a medium-to-advanced clojure user?
20:08	SegFaultAX	Joy of Clojure is pretty awesome.
20:08	coventry`	seangrov: Joy of Clojrue?
20:08	seangrov`	Just got a kindle and going on a few long flights, looksing for good material. Going through Lisp in Small Pieces again
20:08	augustl	+1 to joy of clojure
20:08	SegFaultAX	seangrov`: Also, not Clojure specific, but The Reasoned Schemer.
20:08	SegFaultAX	Do not get it for Kindle, though.
20:08	seangrov`	SegFaultAX: Oh, why not?
20:09	SegFaultAX	Completely unreadable.
20:09	dnolen	seangrov`: horrible formatting
20:09	bbloom	SegFaultAX: based on your definition, core.async does not provide co-routines
20:09	seangrov`	And The Joy of Clojure isn't meant as an intro to Clojure, right?
20:09	coventry`	It has some introductory material but it revs up pretty fast.
20:09	SegFaultAX	bbloom: Correct. I didn't know what to call them, just "go blocks" perhaps. And it isn't /my/ definition.
20:10	seangrov`	coventry`: Thank you
20:10	bbloom	SegFaultAX: I was just pointing out that while coroutines may have a formal definition, colloquially they include any sort of interleaving of control
20:10	coventry`	seangrov: It covers this fairly late in the book. It if seems passe, the book might be too easy for you: https://coderwall.com/p/xayyvq
20:11	coventry`	(I.e., I think it's pretty representative of the level of the book.)
20:12	SegFaultAX	bbloom: And I was pointing out that generators lack necessary elements to be considered coroutines. That isn't a bad thing, per se.
20:13	SegFaultAX	In practice, it basically never matters in Python. Especially with `yield from`
20:21	dnolen	anybody see anything wrong with this CLJS change? http://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/compare/580-fn-name
20:21	dnolen	a fix for http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-580
20:22	dnolen	I see no need to pass name into the analyze data literal cases, seems like it's only needed by analyze-seq for the fn case
20:23	bbloom	dnolen: i never quite figured out what the name was for in general
20:24	dnolen	bbloom: it's useless to me outside of special case for (def foo (fn [] ...))
20:24	dnolen	it seems useless to me I mean
20:24	bbloom	dnolen: why is that special cased?
20:27	dnolen	bbloom: that's a good question ... thinking, probably something to do w/ recursive definitions and the REPL?
20:27	bbloom	,(macroexpand '(defn id [x] x))
20:27	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
20:27	bbloom	booo
20:28	bbloom	dnolen: the problem is that defn is bugged
20:28	bbloom	that produces: (def id (clojure.core/fn ([x] x)))
20:28	bbloom	it should produce:
20:28	bbloom	(def id (clojure.core/fn id ([x] x)))
20:28	bbloom	dnolen: if you do that, the special case goes away
20:29	bbloom	dnolen: that said, your change looks good. i'd commit that as an intermediate step
20:30	dnolen	bbloom: I think fixing it at defn macro might be problematic? thinking about custom defn like macros, this way you can have a complex expression and the function will still get a name.
20:32	bbloom	dnolen: (def f (fn [x] (if (zero? x) :done (f (dec x))))), (f 5)
20:32	bbloom	dnolen: wacky, that works.
20:32	bbloom	dnolen: seems wrong to me
20:33	coventry`	Why is that surprising?
20:33	hfaafb	can i evaluate the body of 'for' once even if :while fails?
20:33	bbloom	coventry`: that's surprising because:
20:34	bbloom	((fn [x] (if (zero? x) :done (f (dec x)))) 5)
20:34	bbloom	coventry`: the inner fn form is magically influenced by it's presence inside the def form
20:36	bbloom	consider: (let [g (fn [x] (if (zero? x) :done (f (dec x))))] (def f g))
20:36	coventry`	bbloom: Gotcha. Interesting.
20:36	bbloom	clearly that doesn't work :-P
20:36	seangrov`	((fn f [x] (if (zero? x) :done (f (dec x)))) 5)
20:36	bbloom	seangrov`: yeah, that's what i'm saying it should be, but apparently def is magic when an fn is inside it syntactically
20:36	seangrov`	bbloom: Ah, yes, I see that now
20:37	bbloom	dnolen: so you're saying that there are likely defn-style macros that depend on this odd behavior?
20:37	dnolen	bbloom: not completely sure
20:42	dnolen	bbloom: doing some spelunking, the passing of name is from the earliest days
20:42	dnolen	bbloom: present before my first commit 2 years ago
20:42	bbloom	dnolen: i suspect it was more or less directly copied from clojure
20:43	dnolen	bbloom: yeah but I'm trying understand it's purpose, I just don't see the point of passing name into map or set analysis
20:43	dnolen	bbloom: after my change all tests pass
20:43	bbloom	dnolen: the point would be if you had something like #{(def f (fn …))}
20:43	bbloom	dnolen: which seems absurd :-P
20:44	coventry`	bbloom: FnExpr has an emitForDefn, which DefExpr calls when the init form is a fn. emitForDefn doesn't seem to do much, though.
20:44	dnolen	bbloom: I don't see how that case is involved here, it appears this is meant for (def foo #{(fn []) ...}), but that doesn't really make sense to me either.
20:44	bbloom	coventry`: my guess is that emitForDefn predates the recursive fn syntax
20:45	bbloom	coventry`: i've got the instincts of a professional software archeologist :-)
20:46	coventry`	bbloom: I'm pleased to meet another Vinge fan. :-)
20:46	bbloom	coventry`: sorry, i have no idea what that is
20:46	bbloom	lol
20:47	coventry`	bbloom: Thought you were referring to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Deepness_in_the_Sky#Interstellar_culture
20:48	bbloom	coventry`: oh, i think i've heard of that
20:50	coventry`	bbloom: What do you mean by recursive fn syntax?
20:50	bbloom	(fn THIS-NAME-HERE [...
20:50	coventry`	Oh, right.
20:56	sontek	dnolen: In the tutorial you sent me: http://mmcgrana.github.io/2010/03/clojure-web-development-ring.html it does things like :dependencies and then indents everything underneath that
20:56	sontek	dnolen: is that the standard way to indent in clojure?
20:56	dnolen	sontek: matter of personal preference
20:58	dnolen	bbloom: yeah I can't really figure out what the point of name is even looking at the old code
20:58	sontek	dnolen: I was asking because emacs thinks its not a valid indention
20:59	bbloom	dnolen: lol, yeah, i was pretty confused by it so i ignored it
20:59	bbloom	dnolen: i feel that way about a bunch of things in there :-P
20:59	dnolen	sontek: you can customize identation
21:00	sontek	dnolen: yeah, I just want to follow whats the community standard way of doing things
21:00	sontek	I couldn't find many best practices docs
21:01	dnolen	bbloom: I think you're right about this being copied over from Compiler.java ...
21:01	bbloom	sontek: just focus on getting working code, then you can worry about what it should look like later. as you look at more & more clojure, you'll get a feel for it
21:01	dnolen	bbloom: but actually ...
21:01	dnolen	bbloom: in Compiler.java they don't pass name along to every case
21:01	bbloom	dnolen: heh
21:02	dnolen	bbloom: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Compiler.java#L6375
21:02	dnolen	bbloom: this looks exactly like my change :P
21:02	bbloom	dnolen: history repeats itself
21:02	dnolen	bbloom: only analyzeSeq gets name
21:03	dnolen	k I'm not crazy merging this in
21:05	sontek	Is my leinigen out of date if I get exceptions like this? http://paste2.org/ZzmZfCIC
21:05	sontek	thats from lein deps
21:06	sontek	Leiningen 1.7.1 on Java 1.7.0_25 OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM
21:06	sontek	Maybe because i have openjdk instead of real java?
21:07	coventry`	sontek: Definitely out of date. Not sure whether that's the cause of your error.
21:07	coventry`	sontek: Get the latest: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen#installation
21:08	sontek	Thats the version shipped with Fedora 19, which came out a couple months ago
21:08	sontek	I'll grab latest
21:10	sontek	yeah, latest works way better
21:13	sontek	is there a way to define dependencies as "latest" instead of hardcoding versions?
21:17	coventry`	I've only experimented with it once, and I can't find documentation on it, but it seems that if you replace the version string with "RELEASE", you'll get the latest version.
21:17	s4muel	"LATEST" works.
21:18	sontek	I didn't see either of those listed on the leinigen docs
21:18	sontek	I'll dig around
21:21	coventry`	Oh, it's a maven thing: http://stackoverflow.com/a/1172371
21:22	s4muel	There's lein-ancient too
21:22	sontek	ahh, nice, good to know
21:22	sontek	not from the java world, so I have plenty to learn
21:59	clj_newb_2345	besides pedestal, is there any library which does the following: I have a data structure, and a function which mapps data to DOM tree; ... then, as I make incremental updates ot the data structure, the DOM tree gets incremental updates
22:00	coventry`	Isn't that the basic idea behind c2? http://keminglabs.com/c2/
22:00	gfredericks	clj_newb_2345: web-fui _maybe_
22:01	clj_newb_2345	coventry`: I think c2 is about wrapping d3
22:01	clj_newb_2345	and producint viosusalizations
22:01	clj_newb_2345	I want something more generic
22:01	clj_newb_2345	that I can say, write we bapps with
22:01	john2x	yeah web-fui does that.. but it's not production ready I think
22:02	john2x	pretty cool project
22:02	coventry`	clj_newb_2345: Yes, but D3 stands for "Data-driven documents."
22:02	sontek	Couldn't you just hook into something like backbone/angular from clojurescript?
22:03	callen	you can use it for another things, but d3 is generally best for "explanatory" rather than "exploratory" content.
22:06	coventry`	callen: Could you give an example of the distinction you're drawing?
22:06	callen	coventry`: a pre-prepared infographic vs. a dashboard for viewing dynamically loaded aggregate data with multiple views.
22:06	callen	you can do the latter with d3, but it'll hurt.
22:09	callen	coventry`: I will say this though, c2 does make things a lot less painful.
22:10	callen	https://github.com/Mamun/clojure-web-app
22:10	coventry`	I thought c2 was released with demonstrations of visualisations which responses to data changes, but it was a while ago. I might be misremembering.
22:11	callen	I said you could do it, and that c2 made it a lot less painful.
22:11	callen	doing that sort of thing in d3 and JS directly is incredibly tedious though.
22:11	callen	dnolen: okay, what'd I say?
22:12	dnolen	I just made CLJS incremental compilation like 10X faster :P
22:12	callen	whoa, congrats!
22:14	devn	wahhh!
22:14	devn	dnolen: how?
22:15	dnolen	devn: eliminating pointless analysis if you're running auto builds
22:15	bbloom	dnolen: ie not re-analyzing namespaces that haven't changed?
22:15	dnolen	bbloom: yes
22:15	bbloom	dnolen: heh.
22:15	bbloom	dnolen: derp. shoulda figured that one out earlier
22:17	dnolen	https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/compare/509-protocol-warn
22:17	dnolen	bbloom: while you like to complain about analyzer/compiler.clj, I think closure.clj is a lot harder to understand :)
22:18	bbloom	dnolen: agreed. i only complain about analyzer/compiler .clj b/c i can articulate complaints :-P
22:18	dnolen	bbloom: haha :D
22:18	bbloom	dnolen: i have about 1/3rd the mental cache space that you have. that's why you think my code is so pretty: b/c i'm too dumb to understand it unless it's absurdly well factored
22:19	bbloom	takes me 10X longer to make it look that nice, but shhh don't tell anybody :-P
22:20	dnolen	it's nice to see that ClojureScript can have CoffeeScript speed compile times
22:20	dnolen	once JVM warm and core.cljs compiled
22:22	bbloom	dnolen: that's a big deal
22:22	dnolen	it is
22:23	sdegutis	What's a good way to inspect a Leiningen project from without but as if from within, i.e. with full access to all the Clojure files it contains?
22:24	callen	sdegutis: inspect?
22:24	callen	sdegutis: do you mean checkouts?
22:24	sdegutis	Um, like all the introspective tools you could otherwise use if you were inside the project, like (the-ns 'hello.world) etc.
22:24	callen	sdegutis: use checkouts.
22:25	sdegutis	Oh.
22:25	sdegutis	I misunderstood your answer :)
22:26	sontek	Is there a thread.sleep in clojure?
22:26	sdegutis	callen: Ah, this solution won't work for me because my app will be a jar file, which won't have a source directory to create a 'checkouts' dir inside. But thanks :)
22:27	sdegutis	sontek: ##(Thread/sleep 1000)
22:27	lazybot	⇒ nil
22:28	sdegutis	Oh I wonder if tools.namespace will do this.
22:33	dnolen	bbloom: 0.2 seconds to recompile a single changed file w/ a couple of functions now w/ :whitespace optimizations
22:33	bbloom	dnolen: glorious
22:34	coventry`	,(the-ns 'clojure.core) isn't a very informative example. Not clear how it relates to a Leiningen project's files.
22:34	clojurebot	#<Namespace clojure.core>
22:34	dnolen	bbloom: ~0.04s if you leave Closure out of it
22:36	sdegutis	dnolen: is cljs your day job?
22:36	dnolen	sdegutis: heh, no
22:37	bbloom	dnolen: I'd like to submit a patch via IRC. please run this in the root of the CLJS directory:
22:37	bbloom	sed -i '' 's/ new//' README.md
22:42	sdegutis	dnolen: oh.
22:43	sdegutis	sed -i '' 's/Clojure/Lava/' **
22:44	sdegutis	smthn lk tht
22:47	dnolen	sdegutis: I work on ClojureScript because otherwise I'll be stuck writing JS or managing people that write JS, do not want that future.
22:48	sdegutis	dnolen: Ah. That makes sense. I've noticed that the only tools I ever actually do work on are ones I plan to use as soon as (before?) they're done.
22:55	sontek	So can you call into actual js libraries from clojurescript? So you can basically write all the clientside code in clojure?
22:55	sontek	That would be pretty wonderful
22:56	dnolen	sontek: calling in to JS libs from CLJS is easy, people are more or less doing what you're describing :)
22:56	sontek	oh my, I feel like I've wasted so much of my life all of a sudden
22:56	dnolen	sontek: CLJS core.async is massively sick IMO http://swannodette.github.io/2013/07/12/communicating-sequential-processes/
22:59	sontek	I'm even happier I decided to checkout clojure now
22:59	sontek	Do you guys know where ring.middleware.stacktrace went?
23:00	sdegutis	OH!
23:00	sdegutis	IDEA.
23:01	sontek	I see it here: http://mmcgrana.github.io/ring/ring.middleware.stacktrace.html but not here: https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/tree/master/ring-core/src/ring/middleware
23:01	sdegutis	I-FRICKEN-DEA.
23:01	sontek	dooo itt
23:03	sontek	https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/tree/master/ring-devel/src/ring/middleware its there though
23:03	callen	sontek: lib-noir and wrap-failsafe.
23:03	callen	you can write your own trivially.
23:04	callen	sontek: if you have lein ring it will display pretty stacktraces automatically for any uncaught exceptions.
23:05	callen	caveat to lein ring being that it's jetty only.
23:05	callen	if that matters.
23:10	sontek	nice, lein ring works pretty well
23:11	sontek	I've been doing all my testing with jetty, its seems like its more than enough for me. I'm actually doing a port of my existing app to see if I can squeeze more performance out of it
23:11	sontek	but the jvm seems to be way nicer than I was hoping for
23:12	callen	sontek: clojure is doing a fair to clean it up wrt APIs and tooling.
23:12	callen	a fair bit*
23:14	SegFaultAX	sontek: You were hoping the JVM would be shittier?
23:16	sontek	SegFaultAX: haha, its just better than I hoped for
23:17	sontek	SegFaultAX: I've only ported 3 APIs but I'm seeing about a 4x speed improvement from my python code and concurrency wise, I couldn't get it to blow up with ab
23:18	sontek	in my python server, it degrades pretty quickly once you get a lot of concurrent requests
23:18	Pupnik_	say what you like about the JVM, but you can't say its slow
23:19	sontek	and this is knowing very little about clojure/jetty, I'm sure I could tweak both to get it even faster, since I've done all kinds of tweaks on the python side to get the current performance I have
23:21	callen	sontek: you don't really need to do much to make it acceptably performant - if anything. Hypothetically you could use http-kit if you needed async or expected high concurrency but that's not obligatory by any means.
23:21	callen	Does enforce good habits in terms of not relying on thread-local state though :)
23:22	akurilin	With leiningen, is my only option for including non-clojure binary and text assets, to stuff them all under resources?
23:23	llasram	What other kind of option would you want?
23:24	llasram	That's what "resources" is for -- things other than source code which should end up in your project JAR
23:24	akurilin	Well I'm thinking with Rails in mind where you have app/views which contains .erb
23:24	akurilin	llasram, would you create something like resources/views for that purpose?
23:25	callen	akurilin: for templates, I put things like that in src/templates or src/views/templates
23:25	callen	akurilin: having erb files in a clojure project is pretty strange though.
23:25	ArthurZ	How hard would it be to pickup Clojure?
23:26	llasram	akurilin: I don't do that much Web stuff, so I yield to other in the common patterns here
23:26	akurilin	callen, do you have to change project.clj to have those folders included in the uberjar?
23:26	dnolen	ArthurZ: coming from what language/experience?
23:26	akurilin	callen, or is everything under src included?
23:27	callen	akurilin: I don't mess with my leiningen in order to do that.
23:27	akurilin	(I'm not fully clear on how uberjars work internally as you can tell, I'll need to look more deeply into it at some point soon)
23:27	ArthurZ	No functional languages
23:27	callen	Selmer uses the classpath (resources, src, test, etc) to find templates.
23:27	callen	akurilin: what you're talking about is by no means specific to uberjars.
23:27	ArthurZ	Thinking of buying http://www.packtpub.com/clojure-data-analysis-cookbook/book?utm_source=Deal+Of+the+Day&utm_campaign=309e9282fe-8th_Sept_8_30_2013&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1299a68014-309e9282fe-54288189&mc_cid=309e9282fe&mc_eid=ab6778ae1d
23:28	callen	akurilin: the weird part about uberjars is the AOT.
23:28	callen	ArthurZ: that looks neat, but you probably want http://clojurebook.com/ first.
23:28	dnolen	ArthurZ: getting your head around programming w/ immutable data structures is a hurdle - I personally recommend Clojure Programming
23:29	callen	which incidentally is what I just linked. Koans help too.
23:29	callen	good to know I'm not the only one that thinks the immutable bits take some working through.
23:29	ArthurZ	I am a t-sql guy
23:30	akurilin	callen, I see, so as long as something is under one of the default folders, it will make it to the uberjar, and then I should be able to refer to that file through a path relative to the classpath?
23:30	callen	it's not about default vs. not default directories, it's about the classpath.
23:31	callen	some stuff is in it, some stuff ain't. just start dumping the classpath in an empty project and learn what's in there.
23:31	ArthurZ	Thx callen: any free as in beer books are around?
23:32	sontek	callen: http-kit looks pretty nice, is there a reason not to use it upfront since it is compatible with ring?
23:33	akurilin	callen, got it.
23:33	callen	ArthurZ: any reason you can't afford it?
23:33	akurilin	callen, lein classpath is pretty handy here, I imagine that's what you were referring to
23:33	callen	akurilin: yes but I wanted you to go on your own path of enlightenment.
23:33	sontek	just that it has to be ran by its own async-server instead of jetty?
23:33	callen	sontek: uhm, you don't want to use thread-local state in http-kit. That's a blocker for some people, not for others.
23:33	callen	no thread affinity.
23:34	akurilin	callen, I'm looking at the leiningen "specification" and it seems to support 4 default paths: source, java source, test and resource. Shouldn't those be considered "default"?
23:34	callen	being shen feng means not understanding the needs of mere mortals.
23:34	akurilin	callen, is that a java concept?
23:34	callen	akurilin: we can go with 'default' if you like, but the classpath is the real thing that decides what gets found and what doesn't :P
23:35	sontek	callen: I'm firmly against threadlocals
23:35	technomancy	akurilin: tests are on the classpath but don't get put into jars
23:35	callen	sontek: then go for it.
23:36	akurilin	callen, I guess the point is that you wouldn't really add more folders to that classpath unless you had some really specific needs, right?
23:36	ArthurZ	Callen: using an OSS product makes me think so
23:37	callen	akurilin: pretty much. you should avoid doing so unless you have an exceptionally good reason.
23:37	akurilin	(in fact I can't see an obvious way of doing that through lein configs)
23:37	akurilin	callen, gotcha, thx for the explanation
23:38	dnolen	ArthurZ: you really can't beat the Clojure books, online resources are not quite up to snuff w/ the good books.
23:38	akurilin	technomancy, good reminder!
23:38	SegFaultAX	sontek: If you're doing your job right, your Clojure code should run circles around your Python code once the JVM warms up.
23:39	ArthurZ	Aha dnolen: figured as much
23:39	callen	and you can use drip for the latter if you want to cheat.
23:39	ArthurZ	What would you say about http://www.packtpub.com/clojure-data-analysis-cookbook/book?utm_source=Deal+Of+the+Day&utm_campaign=309e9282fe-8th_Sept_8_30_2013&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1299a68014-309e9282fe-54288189&mc_cid=309e9282fe&mc_eid=ab6778ae1d
23:39	callen	dnolen: might change someday, but for now, Emerick's book is king of the hill for new people.
23:40	akurilin	callen, and no I'm not using erb. Sticking to mustache for this one really basic email template I'm writing, and then I might seriously need to look into Enlive. I've used underscore.js's templating for a while so perhaps clostache would be the most similar to that.
23:41	callen	akurilin: 2 things: try Selmer - http://github.com/yogthos/Selmer/ - and - did you end up using Blackwater?
23:42	akurilin	callen, 1. any specific reason you'd recommend it over the more basic option I mentioned? 2. not yet, sorry!
23:45	callen	akurilin: mustache is fine if it works for you, but if you start needing smarter templates, give Selmer a try.
23:47	akurilin	callen, deal.
23:48	ArthurZ	Is there a Clojure driver for SQL Server?
23:49	callen	ArthurZ: anything in Clojure that uses JDBC supports whatever JDBC supports. This includes Korma and c.j.j
23:51	ArthurZ	Callen: no idea on Korma or cjj
23:51	mrcheeks	what about google ^^ :-)
23:52	ArthurZ	Google spies lol
23:52	callen	oh this is cool, I don't have to be the meanie that says to google anymore.
23:52	callen	ArthurZ: then duck-duck-go-it.
23:52	mabes	ArthurZ: I've use the SQL server jdbc driver from clojure before without problems
23:52	ArthurZ	Seriously, I use duck-duck or Bing
23:53	callen	ArthurZ: okay?
23:53	akurilin	Oh actually on that note let me ask this here rather than on the groups. I'm trying to figure out a sane way of avoiding repetition when building different flavors of the same SQL query. For example I have a select, but I might want to add in a limit, an offset, a sorting order, perhaps a count etc all based on the same base query. Or for inserts, sometimes I want to add RETURNING at the end. Can I avoid doing this by hand? Is Korma/Honey what people
23:53	akurilin	use for that?
23:54	ArthurZ	Mables: does it handle sql errors well? E.g. do schema errors bubble up?
23:55	ArthurZ	Sorry callen: ok re what?
23:55	akurilin	I get the feeling that what I'm asking for must have been solved and resolved a few hundred times already.
23:57	ArthurZ	akurilin: AFAIK ANSII SQL was never implemented in any RDBMS
23:57	callen	akurilin: Korma.