#clojure – 2013-09-06

2013-09-06

00:00	bbloom	cjfrisz_: i don't understand how haskell programmers can stomach all that manual lifting :-)
00:00	cjfrisz_	bbloom: I just don't understand how to Haskell
00:01	bbloom	cjfrisz_: i can't read infix :-P
00:01	cjfrisz_	I get types for the most part, and I've written some toys, but I just can't get it to stick with me
00:01	dobry-den	http://docs.datomic.com/schema.html explains that you'd want to create a new partition for different logical groups but I'm not sure what that means (and despite its example, the Seattle demo doesn't create a :communities partition).
00:01	seabre	I like Haskell a lot, I just don't know what to do with it.
00:01	cjfrisz_	I get this odd sensation that I'll end up playing with it some more if I spend some time with core.typed
00:02	dobry-den	If you had a forum schema (Users have many Threads have many Topics), would those be in the same logical group since you query across them?
00:03	bbloom	cjfrisz_: some particularly weird things i just can't deal w/ tho… like i can't move code between models w/o changing the encapsulation behavior & i now have to manually make public accessor functions? wtf?
00:03	bbloom	cjfrisz_: i just wanna cut and paste some code dammit! stop trying to protect me from me!
00:03	dobry-den	famous last words from my time with php
00:04	cjfrisz_	bbloom: I hate to cut off our chat, but I need to go sleep
00:05	bbloom	cjfrisz_: psha. you people and your real jobs
00:05	cjfrisz_	bbloom: Yeah, man…keeping a schedule in line with other people's is a drag
00:05	cjfrisz_	Being an adult is a dumb idea and we should beat up whoever thought of it
00:06	cjfrisz_	I just wanna circles move around in my browser all day
00:06	bbloom	cjfrisz_: agreed. that's why i quit being an adult
00:07	cjfrisz_	bbloom: I'm off. I'll be back on sometime soon
00:07	bbloom	cya
00:07	cata	can anyone advise me how to write this idiomatically without my silly helper function? http://paste.lisp.org/display/138795
00:16	bbloom	cata: have you see ##(doc for) ?
00:16	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([seq-exprs body-expr]); List comprehension. Takes a vector of one or more binding-form/collection-expr pairs, each followed by zero or more modifiers, and yields a lazy sequence of evaluations of expr. Collections are iterated in a nested fashion, rightmost f... https://www.refheap.com/18381
00:23	sdegutis_	Okay I'm stumped.
00:24	sdegutis_	I have a defprotocol, I extend-type a few types to implement it, and I try calling it. And it throws java.lang.ClassCastException: nepenthe.core$eval200$fn__201$G__191__212 cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn$OOLLO
00:25	brehaut	OOLLOO = Object Object Long Long Object Object i think? thats the method type signature
00:25	sdegutis_	Ah, OOLLO means it takes 2 objs and 2 longs
00:26	sdegutis_	Ah, it was a bad type hint.
00:26	sdegutis_	Thanks.
00:28	seabre	This might be kind of an off the wall question: Is there something like rake for clojure?
00:32	ddellacosta	seabre: not really; part of the problem is that you have to spin up the jvm
00:33	seabre	yeah
00:33	ddellacosta	seabre: you could see if this scratches any of your itches tho: https://github.com/technomancy/grenchman
00:34	xeqi	seabre: like rake in what sense?
00:37	seabre	I just want to be able to define some tasks in a file
00:37	seabre	and run them when I want
00:37	seabre	Like in a Rakefile
00:38	xeqi	seabre: I usually put project specific tasks in a file in the project and add an alias for lein
00:38	xeqi	for example
00:39	xeqi	https://github.com/ato/clojars-web/blob/master/src/clojars/db/migrate.clj#L56 - is a file that will run database migrations
00:39	xeqi	https://github.com/ato/clojars-web/blob/master/project.clj#L39 is an alias to make it nicer
00:39	xeqi	then `lein migrate` will run the db migrations
00:40	sdegutis_	In all my years of Ruby I'm not sure I ever defined a rake task or needed to.
00:40	seabre	Well, yeah, but that only works if you're working in a clojure project.
00:41	technomancy	sdegutis_: when you do it's because rake doesn't make it all that easy to abstract things out and share tasks
00:46	seabre	I keep some personal documents in LaTeX and use rake and guard to autocompile while I work on them.
00:47	technomancy	seabre: why not just a ruby script with a shebang?
00:47	seabre	My rake file is like four lines of code.
00:49	technomancy	oh, do you mean like a library that tracks timestamps of various files and relationships between them?
00:51	seabre	Sure
00:52	seabre	I was really just wondering if there was a clojure equivalent to rake, in general.
00:53	nightfly	lein
00:54	technomancy	rake is used for a lot of different things, but I don't think there's any generalized file timestamp tracking library in clojure
00:55	ddellacosta	is there a reason why a channel in a go block wouldn't pick up the first message passed in?
00:56	xeqi	ddellacosta: because someone else read from the channel first?
00:56	ddellacosta	xeqi: sorry, I'm not being clear: the first message I pass into a channel doesn't seem to be getting read, but subsequent messages are
00:57	ddellacosta	xeqi: nothing else is reading it, that much I can confirm--it is all the same go block right now
00:58	xeqi	no good ideas. I haven't seen that behavior in my cljs core.async explorations
00:58	ddellacosta	I'm setting up a go block to handle messages coming in via browserchannel, THEN I set up the browser channel with a request on open, which I see passed in--but nothing comes out of the channel in the go block which I set up initially. Very perplexing.
00:58	ddellacosta	I'm sure it's something stupid I'm doing, but not sure how to break it down, since it seems like everything is so obvious.
00:59	xeqi	"which I see passed in" - are you doing a println right before?
00:59	ddellacosta	xeqi: yep…is that the stupid thing I'm doing?
01:00	xeqi	I don't think so. I just wanted to make sure I understood
01:00	ddellacosta	yeah, let me make up a refheap, it's hard to explain
01:08	ddellacosta	xeqi: this hopefully explains it: https://www.refheap.com/18382
01:08	ddellacosta	xeqi: I gloss over some of it, but hopefully is obvious from the output at the bottom
01:11	ddellacosta	xeqi: never mind, think I solved it…but writing up that refheap was necessary for me to do so. haha
01:11	xeqi	ddellacosta: quack
01:11	ddellacosta	xeqi: thanks for being my "foil" so to speak.
01:11	ddellacosta	xeqi: what does "quack" mean?
01:11	xeqi	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging
01:11	xeqi	I am a duck
01:12	ddellacosta	xeqi: ah! Thanks for being the duck. (and apologies…)
01:16	rhg135	lol
01:17	rhg135	i had never heard of that
01:18	rigger	it works
01:19	rigger	sometimes i talk to myself outloud while debugging and my wife thinks i've lost it
01:19	seancorfield	ddellacosta: and what was the problem?
01:20	seancorfield	glad you've solved it and all... but don't keep us in suspense! :)
01:21	ddellacosta	seancorfield: haha…honestly, I'm still a bit confused
01:22	mtgrubb	hello all, I'm having some issues with defrecord and extend-type interaction. You can see some code that I used to reproduce the problem at https://gist.github.com/mgrubb/3dcfff07433314002afd
01:22	ddellacosta	seancorfield: I'm using browser channel, and I solved it by passing in an operation on opening of the browser channel channel, and that seemed to happen at the right time
01:22	ddellacosta	seancorfield: but it almost seems like dom/log was being called outside of the scope of the function it was declared within--it's very strange to me.
01:23	mtgrubb	The tl;dr is that when I try to extend-type and use a protocol that was defined in a different namespace i'm getting the interface X is not a protocol exception
01:23	ddellacosta	seancorfield: I will have to investigate further, 'cause how it is behaving doesn't make sense.
01:24	seancorfield	according to that code you were sending {"success" false} first? or am i misunderstanding the gist?
01:24	xeqi	mtgrubb: try compiler/Render instead of compiler.Render
01:24	seabre	rigger: Make your wife think you're even crazier http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging
01:25	seancorfield	seabre: i talk to my cats to debug problems...
01:25	rigger	yep, i do have a rubber duck sitting on top of my rubik's cube collection
01:25	mtgrubb	xeqi: Thanks! I new it was something simple that I was missing.
01:26	rhg135	I should buy one lol
01:26	seancorfield	rhg135: a rubber duck or a cat? :)
01:27	rhg135	Clojure needs a debugger
01:27	seabre	Oh, xeqi posted the same thing, haha didn't see it.
01:27	rhg135	River sick ;-)
01:27	rhg135	KB :'(
01:27	rhg135	Rubber duck*
01:29	danlentz	pardon the diatomic centric question, but #datomic channel seems to be less active. If I have 2 entities each with the same many-values attribute is it possible to efficiently union the two sets of values into a new entity with that same attribute?
01:29	ddellacosta	seancorfield: sorry, got distracted, one sec
01:29	rhg135	Define efficiently :'(
01:30	rhg135	;-) *
01:30	ddellacosta	seancorfield: yeah, that code reference is a bit confusing, but it all has to do with sending stuff on the client side, within the context of receiving browserchannel responses from the server
01:30	danlentz	in my particular use-case i have two graphs [collections of statements] and i want a third graph that is the union of those two
01:31	ddellacosta	seancorfield: so, I'm not sure what was going on with the initial {"success" false}--it's very strange that there was no sending to the channel
01:32	danlentz	rhg135: well i don't want to just iterate over both sets one by one building the union with all that wasted overhead
01:33	xeqi	danlentz: clojure.set/union ?
01:33	rhg135	look at clojure.set/union
01:33	rhg135	sorry i'm also new to clojure :P
01:33	danlentz	but then i have to insert 2n nodes back into the db
01:34	danlentz	i want it computed without sucking them all out and then shoving them all back in again
01:36	danlentz	w/o much experience with diatomic yet my initial thought was to implement my own collections using a trap structure implemented using diatomic tuples
01:37	danlentz	but i just thought there had to be an easier way
01:37	danlentz	trap rather
01:37	danlentz	treap
01:38	danlentz	damn autoincorrector
01:39	rhg135	Ah
01:39	xeqi	danlentz: using :db/ref as pointers ?
01:39	danlentz	y
01:41	danlentz	i actually have the basics of the tree model built already but bedore i start getting too far i thought i might ask someone wiser in the ways of datomic
01:42	xeqi	how would that prevent having to insert the nodes again?
01:42	lynaghk	ping: dnolen
01:42	danlentz	its actually a weight balanced tree not a trap. wb will perform better because it does a lot less rebalancing
01:43	danlentz	well i can union two wb trees within the db more efficiently nthan 2n
01:44	danlentz	the trees are functional and share structure
01:45	danlentz	and don't require eager evaluation
01:46	danlentz	its essentially like adams tree / purely functional data structures based
01:47	danlentz	i've used them to implement collections before both in memory and on disk. but by on-disk i mean at a lower level using mmap
01:48	danlentz	seems like if i have a diatomic database it should be doing that bit for me
01:50	danlentz	things should be at least a little more convenient then working directly in memory using octets… :)
01:50	xeqi	the sharing structure seems like it could be beneficial to reduce the node insertion
01:51	danlentz	it seems lile this would be a common type of requirement
01:51	xeqi	though work never happens "in the db". the client pulls the data out, and works on it locally
01:52	danlentz	y but I'm just surprised i have to go and implement my own index structure from scratch rather than some facility of diatomic existing indexes
01:54	xeqi	even trying to use an ordered list attribute requires building your own index
01:54	danlentz	also wb trees are ordered whoch enables some other optimizations
01:55	danlentz	xeql: meaning your own data structure?
01:56	danlentz	also in the future i had in mind that i wanted to add and remove indexes dynamically at will
01:56	danlentz	e.g. some graphs may have multi-constituent indexes, etc
01:56	xeqi	a :db.cardinality/many of :db.type/ref, and those refered entities need to have a :db.type/long representing their index. so yes?
01:57	danlentz	but the union of two many-valued attributes just seems like such a basic thing i thought perhaps i was missing sopmethging
02:00	danlentz	seems a little do-it-yourself for a commercial product like diatomic aims to be
02:01	danlentz	and a closed source one at that
04:20	mklappstuhl	Using a (try (catch)) block as it is used here: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Examples/JDBC_Examples#Dropping_a_Table — my functions always return nil on error case — I looked into various SO threads but wasn't able to figure out how to get the stracktrace to be printed
04:23	jack_rabbit	mklappstuhl, what have you tried?
04:24	jack_rabbit	have you tried the printStackTrace() method?
04:24	mklappstuhl	(catch Exception e (.printStackTrace (.getCause e)))
04:24	mklappstuhl	this one?
04:26	jack_rabbit	yeah.
04:26	jack_rabbit	why are you doing getCause, though?
04:29	mklappstuhl	jack_rabbit: to be honest I dont really know. I found that on SO. tried it without getCause now and the output is actually far more verbose
04:30	jack_rabbit	well. Stack traces are usually verbose.
04:30	jack_rabbit	ALL of Java is usually verbose.
04:30	mklappstuhl	I was looking for that so it's good :)
04:31	mklappstuhl	I'm trying to delete tables btw and printStackTrace gives me that: java.sql.BatchUpdateException: Batch entry 0 DROP TABLE migrations was aborted. Call getNextException to see the cause.
04:31	jack_rabbit	So do that if you want the next exception.
04:31	mklappstuhl	the table doesnt exist but I wonder if getNextException provides me with more sql related info
04:32	jack_rabbit	I have no idea. it seems to be a java.sql thing.
04:32	mklappstuhl	oh, wow. just replacing .printStackTrace with .getNextException is pretty good
04:33	mklappstuhl	maybe I didn't get this working yesterday because it was late already :D
04:34	jack_rabbit	could be.
04:35	jack_rabbit	do you know Java?
04:41	mklappstuhl	jack_rabbit: no, not at all
04:41	jack_rabbit	that's your problem.
04:41	mklappstuhl	jack_rabbit: yeah, apparently. It's a bit sad that you get to Java so fast just wanting to use clojure :)
04:42	jack_rabbit	I agree.
04:46	clgv	mklappstuhl: there is the clojure.stacktrace namesapce that offers you print-stack-trace and print-cause-trace
04:47	clgv	I often use print-cause-trace during development
04:47	jack_rabbit	clgv, good to know.
04:51	sheldonh	reverse is not lazy. does that mean that (filter some-filter (reverse lazy-sequence)) will end up building the entire sequence into memory before some-filter sees the first entry?
04:51	jack_rabbit	sheldonh, yes.
04:51	mklappstuhl	clgv: I will look into that, thank you :)
04:51	sheldonh	jack_rabbit: owch.
04:52	clgv	sheldonh: yes. but the filtering is lazy again
04:52	sheldonh	clgv: right. so on a monster sized lazy-sequence, reverse is an extremely bad idea if i have other options. true?
04:53	clgv	shadlonh: you can implement a lazy reverse though. but it takes O(n) time
04:53	jack_rabbit	clgv, you could implement a lazy reverse on vectors that was in constant time, though, no?
04:55	clgv	jack_rabbit: yes
04:55	clgv	oh no I think I misjudged lazy-reverse is not possible for lazy-seq. since you need the last element as first
04:56	clgv	sheldonh: just reverse the data after you know how much you need to realize
04:58	sheldonh	clgv: i'm trying to learn how to a) take a sequence and return a sequence (to minimize memory usage when it matters) while at the same time b) dealing with the fact that my use of conj in reduce gives me the result in reverse
04:59	clgv	sheldonh: conj with a list?
05:00	sheldonh	clgv: yes. like so: https://www.refheap.com/18386
05:00	clgv	sheldon: if you conj on a list and do not like the order being reversed then use a vector in the reduce instead of the list
05:00	sheldonh	clgv: hmmm, thinking...
05:01	clgv	sheldon: as a rule of thumb: for sequential data you almost always use vectors except you have a special goal that definitely needs a list
05:02	clgv	sheldon: I meant eager calculation. for lazy calculation you have lazy-seq and the sequence functions built on it
05:02	sheldonh	clgv: so... "as a rule of thumb: for eager calculation you almost always use vectors except ..." ?
05:03	clgv	yes
05:03	clgv	eager calculation of sequential data ;)
05:04	jack_rabbit	It also makes me wonder that if you have a single sequence so large that it is deserving of memory consumption consideration, if you shouldn't be splitting the data somehow into smaller chunks.
05:05	sheldonh	jack_rabbit: well exactly. the exercise i'm working on is to implement core's partition function :)
05:06	clgv	jack_rabbit: assuming the data isnt generated on the fly and does not fit into memory it must originate somewhere: network or file/database
05:06	clgv	in the memory case you can build a function reading the file applying a function on each read datum
05:06	jack_rabbit	clgv, exactly.
05:13	sheldonh	maybe my approach to reducing is wrong. i start with [[]], filling the inner vector until it has the right size. that requires a lot of (conj previous-partitions (conj current-partition x))
05:19	sheldonh	hmmmmm... assoc applies to vectors :)
05:31	clgv	sheldonh: problem link?
05:39	sheldonh	clgv: it's just "implement partition yourself" http://www.4clojure.com/problem/54 current attempt here: https://www.refheap.com/18387 ... seems what's tripping me up is that rest returns a list, not a vector
05:39	clgv	sheldonh: you do not have to be lazy for that one.
05:40	sheldonh	clgv: it just feels like i should be able to get away with not having the whole input set in memory at any time. maybe that's a bad intuition
05:40	clgv	sheldonh: dont overcomplicate the task ;)
05:41	sheldonh	clgv: i must! laziness is a huge reason i'm interested in clojure, and (as you can see) i don't understand it very well :)
05:41	sheldonh	clgv: it's very exciting to see a chunk of code that looks like it'd be a single thread in ruby, flattening 5 of my cores :)
05:44	clgv	sheldonh: how are those two statements connected?
05:44	sheldonh	clgv: i'm going to have to go with tangentially :)
05:45	sheldonh	clgv: but i'm guessing it's because referential transparency plus laziness provide easy opportunities for exploiting concurrency
05:45	sheldonh	clgv: (because you can execute a producer and a consumer concurrently)
05:46	krgn	morning
05:46	clgv	sheldonh: no. lazyness is the archenemy of concurrency. that's why the important lazy functions from clojure.core are reimplemented in clojure.core.reducers
05:46	jack_rabbit	sheldonh, laziness just allows you to compute only what you need.
05:47	krgn	I have a question: if I have a 'resources' folder in a project, I'd like to get the contents into the uberjar as well, but they don't get included
05:47	Brand0	sheldonh, did you try a for loop?
05:47	clgv	s/important lazy functions/important sequence functions/
05:48	Brand0	or take
05:48	sheldonh	excellent. i don't understand laziness. i will go back to plodding through the exercises and revisit this next time around block :)
05:48	jack_rabbit	meanwhile in ##java....
05:48	Brand0	^JavaSpaghettiOO
05:51	clgv	sheldonh: you could use lazy-seq + take + drop ;)
05:52	sheldonh	clgv: bloody hacker :)
05:53	Brand0	cheater!!!
05:53	Brand0	;-)
05:53	clgv	sheldonh: well, I would not reimplement `partition` in the first place if it wasnt an exercise... :P
05:53	Brand0	sheldonh, did you look at the source to partiton before you started?
05:54	sheldonh	nooooooooooooooo!!!!!
05:54	Brand0	good first step to alert you to functions that you may or may not have know existed (or could be used that way)
05:54	clgv	Brand0: well, looking at the source is cheating...
05:54	sheldonh	clgv: you have a point. why am i worrying about this? when i find myself in a situation where my solution to this problem is necessary, i can just use partition!!!
05:54	Brand0	not always
05:55	clgv	sheldonh: indeed
05:55	clgv	Brand0: for 4clojure exercises to reimplement a core function always ;)
05:56	Brand0	clgv, a lot of the time the functions are written using java interop and would bring your score way up (bad!)
05:56	Brand0	but you're right for some of them
05:56	sheldonh	you guys must be so sick of 4clojure :)
05:56	Brand0	nah it's the best way to learn clojure
05:58	Brand0	and there's few better feelings than entering your answer and seeing yours is the shortest (or = to)
05:58	sheldonh	Brand0: glad to hear it. i meant, those of you who already know clojure, answering questions about 4clojure here :)
05:58	Brand0	oh lol ... I don't think anyone in here is sick of talking about clojure yet
05:58	Brand0	for any reason really
05:58	sheldonh	and now for something completely different. does clojure have sugar like haskell's $? so far, comp is the next best thing i can find
05:58	llasram	There's a pretty clear self-selection process there :-)
05:59	llasram	sheldonh: The threading macros (->, ->>, etc) can yield a similar result
06:00	llasram	&(->> 5 range second inc)
06:00	lazybot	⇒ 2
06:00	sheldonh	oooo. great! thanks
06:31	sheldonh	you've got to marvel at the perverse pedantry of students, that demanded the use of the word distinct in this exercise: "Write a function which returns a map containing the number of occurences of each distinct item in a sequence." :)
06:34	clgv	sheldonh: much better than underspecified descriptions
06:50	sheldonh	clgv: absolutely. i've encountered a few serious headscratchers :)
06:52	Brand0	distinct = unique
07:16	ambroseb_	hyPiRion, callen, technomancy: core.typed needs to stick to Clojure semantics wrt keywords. There's some room for warning on potentially non-existent keyword lookups, but then you've got macros that use keywords as predicates and it might all get a bit messy.
07:17	ambroseb_	and you don't have control over other peoples macros, so you might get lots of "Potentially missing keyword lookup" warnings.
07:18	ambroseb_	I can add a flag if people are interested to turn these warnings on though.
07:18	ambroseb_	(this is RE: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2013-09-05.html#18:35a)
07:46	noncom	how often fo you find yourself using mapply? i feel like i am doing some kind of a hack with it. although my reason says that there is nothing bad, the fact that it is not in the language core tickles me..
07:47	ambroseb_	noncom: apply?
07:47	noncom	no, mapply
07:47	ambroseb_	ok
07:47	ambroseb_	I don't know what that is.
07:48	llasram	noncom: Reminder what `mapply` is?
07:49	noncom	it is same as apply, but used in case if you have a function that acceps a map of optional parameters like (defn my-func [& {:keys [a z]}] ...), and then you have {:a 1 :z 2}. So you need mapply to pass that map easiy
07:49	noncom	code: (defn mapply [f & args] (apply f (apply concat (butlast args) (last args))))
07:50	ambroseb_	hehe that's nasty. looks useful though.
07:51	llasram	noncom: Ok. Yeah, for me -- honestly, never
07:51	noncom	heh..
07:52	noncom	must be a sign of code smell?
07:52	ambroseb_	it seems like it exposes something about the way Clojure implements kw args.
07:52	ambroseb_	I can't put my finger on it though.
07:52	ambroseb_	I'll have to think about that one
07:55	noncom	this code is what hyPiRion gave me when i asked how can i apply a map like that. Also, i remember someone said that Clojure's kw args mechanism looks like it is not as it intended to be. The keyword args were added later and issues like this one can happen... something like this..
07:55	ambroseb_	noncom: I guess if your stuck with a map of data and a function that takes that map as keywords, it's a nice utility.
07:56	noncom	see, yes, my mind is calm. but there is an itch - why isn't this in the core as of 1.5.1 ?
07:56	ambroseb_	noncom: I haven't seen any demand for it in core.
07:57	ambroseb_	usually you need to kick up a fuss to get something in.
07:57	ambroseb_	perhaps the jury is still out whether mapply is encouraged.
07:58	noncom	yeah, maybe...
07:58	noncom	but it looks VERY natural for a language with such destructuring abilities..
07:59	ambroseb_	good point.
07:59	ambroseb_	the lack of mapply certainly encourages the use of a map arg over kw args.
08:00	ambroseb_	which seems against Clojure's decision to flatten almost every piece of syntax.
08:01	noncom	i guess maybe i should ask in the user group and some from the creators team could answer. it very interesting why is it so.
08:03	ambroseb_	also consider it's very hard getting things into clojure.core.
08:03	ambroseb_	everyone has their own set of convenience macros
08:04	ambroseb_	there's nothing wrong with dissoc-in, but it's not being added to core.
08:06	noncom	no problem with this, rather i want to know the bias behind the situation.. but this even seems more fundamental than dissoc-in.. it feels something like if in Java you could not pass, well, say, double args, instead you'd have to pass floats and then make them double.. hehe :)
08:07	ambroseb_	yes.
08:08	clgv	just out of curiosity: is there a pipeline construct in core.async? pipeline means I have a function to put data in the pipeline and the pipeline function running in several different threads process the data and I have a function to retrieve the results afterwards
08:12	noncom	yet i did not get to extensive use for core.async... a little sad this is.. what is your domain of application for core.async, if it is not secret :)?
08:18	clgv	noncom: I do not use core.async. I just head need for the described pipeline
08:18	clgv	I wrote it myself now
08:19	clgv	noncom: the use case is processing data from a huge file in parallel with only a limited number of entities in memory at the same time
08:22	noncom	interesting!
08:22	clgv	it's build on java.util.concurrent now
08:58	xeqi	clgv: that sounds like 2 channels and N go blocks reading from one channel, processing, and sticking the result in the other channel
08:59	xeqi	I don't know of anything yet that wraps that structure up into an api ala http://immutant.org/documentation/current/messaging.html#messaging-pipelines
08:59	clgv	xeqi: yes. but without having to construct that yourself. I think it is general purpose enough to be implemented in some lib..
09:00	clgv	ah nice. approximately like the immutant one
09:00	clgv	except that I have limited queues and thus backpressure for all participant
09:02	xeqi	I've seen some gists from dnolen that are exploring error handling and mentions of pipelining where channels exist for the intermediate steps, but I don't think anything is wrapped up in a lib yet
09:10	silasdavis	Can I print to the console from a lein ring app?
09:12	mathiasp	I think with pprint, at least it works under immutant
09:13	crocket	Is there a good database library for clojure?
09:13	crocket	Datomic is just too expensive.
09:14	crocket	too expensive for individuals
09:17	xeqi	crocket: what are your qualifications for "good" ?
09:17	drbobbeaty	crocket: I've used postgresql with clojure as well as hadoop and both are working really well for me.
09:17	crocket	xeqi, I don't have any yet, but I heard Datomic was good.
09:17	crocket	drbobbeaty, Both?
09:17	crocket	drbobbeaty, postgresql is not a library.
09:18	drbobbeaty	crocket: Sorry, I saw your request for a database to use with clojure.
09:18	drbobbeaty	crocket: I've used korma as a library into postgresql, and it's nice.
09:18	Anderkent	Is there a nicer way of saying (condp apply expr #{foo} ... bar? ..._
09:19	Anderkent	i.e. the equivalent of (cond (fun-a expr) ... (fun-b expr) ... ...)
09:19	drbobbeaty	crocket: I've created a webhdfs-clj library to interface with a WebHDFS system - which is the heart of hadoop.
09:19	crocket	drbobbeaty, What is hadoop?
09:20	drbobbeaty	crocket: http://hadoop.apache.org
09:20	drbobbeaty	It's a large, distributed, clustered, database with map/reduce capabilities.
09:20	xeqi	crocket: https://github.com/clojure/java.jdbc is the base level everything builds on. Some people like http://sqlkorma.com/ ; others like https://github.com/jkk/honeysql for nice querying and doing create/update/delete with c.j.jdbc
09:20	xeqi	for normal sql databases
09:21	Balveda	What libraries are good for webapp development?
09:21	crocket	What does Rich Hickey build?
09:21	xeqi	crocket: none of those. He built datomic
09:21	xeqi	* and others
09:21	crocket	xeqi, And datomic is expensive.
09:21	crocket	xeqi, It seems he earns money from datomic.
09:21	xeqi	you can push datomic-free quite far
09:22	crocket	xeqi, datomic-free doesn't include SQL backend.
09:22	xeqi	correct
09:22	crocket	Loss of SQL backen is loss of everything.
09:22	crocket	If I can't use Datomic with postgresql or mysql, it's not worth for individual devs.
09:22	crocket	Companies might be tempted to pay for it.
09:23	xeqi	that is an interesting position to take
09:23	crocket	xeqi, Who doesn't use SQL nowadays?
09:23	Balveda	Is Noir handy?
09:24	noncom	i don't use sql
09:24	xeqi	Balveda: noir has been deprecated. Most people are using compojure, possibly with lib-noir and other libs to build a stack. check out http://www.luminusweb.net/ for a starting point
09:24	Balveda	Thanks!
09:25	xeqi	crocket: I feel like this is moving into troll territory. but on the case you are sincere, I know of several companies using mongo, riak, cassandra, couchdb, and others that are not sql
09:26	crocket	xeqi, However, I think absence of SQL backend in datomic-free is a serious mistake.
09:27	xeqi	crocket: out of curiousity, what benefits does the sql backend provide?
09:27	crocket	Absence of it excludes a significant portion of individual devs.
09:27	crocket	xeqi, Lots of people still use SQL DBs.
09:33	noncom	that is true
09:33	crocket	hmm
09:34	crocket	Datomic-free seems to support embedded datalog backend.
09:39	crocket	hmm
09:39	crocket	Is datalog better than SQL?
09:40	bamford	Folks, when I run parallel calls to functions with println, the output lines can sometimes be interleaved:
09:41	bamford	(doall (apply pcalls (repeat 3 (fn [] (dotimes [_ 3] (println "Hey hello!"))))))
09:41	bamford	but AFAIK, in Java it is guaranteed that System.out.println output lines won't ever be interleaved
09:41	bamford	is there a way to make Clojure's println also "thread-safe" in this respect?
09:42	Balveda	hm
09:42	Balveda	counterclockwise crashes when i try to make a project with a luminus +cljs template
09:42	clojurebot	Excuse me?
09:45	Balveda	apparently it doesnt like the parameters
09:46	xeqi	bamford: you could use bound-fn instead of fn
09:47	Anderkent	How can I go from a non-namespaced symbol to a fully namespaced one, on runtime? I.e. (let [sym 'foo] (fully-qualify sym))
09:47	Anderkent	I guess (symbol (-> sym resolve meta :ns) sym) kinda works, but fugly
09:48	bamford	xeqi: thanks, unfortunately that doesn't help, same problem
09:49	ambroseb_	Anderkent: do you mean `resolve`?
09:49	ambroseb_	I guess that returns a Var, but do you want the symbol that is currently in scope?
09:51	Anderkent	ambroseb_: I want a fully qualified symbol that would resolve to the same var
09:51	Anderkent	or the symbol back if it resolves to a non-namespace-qualified special
09:51	Anderkent	(or doesnt resolve at all)
09:52	ambroseb_	Is this in a macro?
09:52	ambroseb_	Do you mean a local variable?
09:52	ambroseb_	or a special form?
09:53	Anderkent	yes
09:53	Anderkent	I check that it's not a local already, so that's not a problem
09:53	Anderkent	but basically if I get 'if
09:53	Anderkent	then I want 'if
09:53	Anderkent	but if I get 'loop, I want 'clojure.core/loop
09:53	Anderkent	(unless of course there's a loop defined that shadows clojure.core)
09:53	ambroseb_	,(clojure.core/if 1 2 3)
09:53	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such var: clojure.core/if, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
09:54	ambroseb_	didn't know that.
09:54	ambroseb_	then again I don't think I wanted to know.
09:54	Anderkent	https://www.refheap.com/18393 does the job, I think. But .... :P
09:54	ambroseb_	,(clojure.core/do)
09:54	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such var: clojure.core/do, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
09:55	Bronsa	ambroseb_: only clojure.core/import* is namespaced of all the special forms
09:55	Anderkent	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Compiler.java here, anything that doesn't intern as (clojure.core, ...) is not namespaced
09:55	ambroseb_	Bronsa: ah yes. I think I wrote some docs about that, must have been pushed out of my brain.
09:57	Anderkent	really, I just want what ` does
09:57	eric_normand	another day, another sexp
09:57	ambroseb_	,(-> 'do resolve class)
09:57	clojurebot	nil
09:58	Anderkent	specials dont resolve
09:58	Anderkent	the compiler picks them up
09:58	ambroseb_	if I was more proud of my Clojure knowledge I'd do that privately ;)
09:58	ambroseb_	I knew that! :)
09:58	Anderkent	hah :P
09:59	ambroseb_	;)
09:59	Anderkent	it's not something that comes up most of the time
09:59	ambroseb_	Anderkent: so you will have to special case the specials.
09:59	Anderkent	but when doing full program transfomrations
09:59	Anderkent	it's pretty damn annoying
09:59	Anderkent	nah
09:59	Bronsa	Anderkent: https://github.com/clojure/tools.reader/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/reader.clj#L456
09:59	Anderkent	since they dont resolve, they dont get ns, so I treat them as any symbol that doesnt resolve
09:59	Anderkent	i.e. return it back
10:00	ambroseb_	Anderkent: sounds amazing.
10:00	ambroseb_	amazingly fun that is.
10:01	crocket	Does anyone use datalog for database queries/
10:01	Anderkent	yuck, that feel when your change breaks all the tests without actually breaking anything useful
10:02	ambroseb_	is it actually 100% reliable to lookup :ns in Var meta?
10:02	ambroseb_	I always just get the Java field.
10:02	Anderkent	ah, that I wouldn't know
10:02	Anderkent	why wouldn't it be? :P
10:02	ambroseb_	I don't know. I don't trust metadata very often :)
10:02	ambroseb_	probably because ... yea types.
10:07	Anderkent	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (-1) passed to: instrument$form-type
10:07	Anderkent	i love this
10:07	ambroseb_	what does that mean?
10:07	Bronsa	that happens when you have a runtime error inside a macro
10:08	Bronsa	e.g (defmacro x [] (map)) (x) ;=> ArityException Wrong number of args (-2) passed to: core$map clojure.lang.Compiler.macroexpand1 (Compiler.java:6473)
10:09	ambroseb_	,(inc Bronsa)
10:09	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: Bronsa in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
10:09	ambroseb_	(inc Bronsa)
10:09	lazybot	⇒ 10
10:09	Anderkent	yes, I believe I was explaining that to someone months ago just here :P
10:09	Anderkent	or rather, it happens when you have an ArityException inside a macro
10:10	Anderkent	because macroexpand catches that and substracts 2
10:10	mikerod	just don't pass -2 arguments to map, no problem
10:10	Bronsa	I tracked it down in Compiler.java but could never come up with a fix
10:10	Bronsa	Anderkent: yeah, for &form and &env
10:10	mikerod	ah
10:10	Anderkent	Bronsa: use a different exception for macro arity exceptions, perhaps?
10:11	Bronsa	how? macros are just fns
10:12	Anderkent	hm. check your metadata when throwing it? :D
10:12	crocket	What is a good datalog library for clojure?
10:13	crocket	Let's exclude Datomic for now.
10:13	Bronsa	Anderkent: I don't believe AFn.throwArity can access the var's metadata
10:14	Anderkent	Could you tell AFn if it's a macro when constructing it?
10:14	Bronsa	no
10:14	Bronsa	the macro is set at the Var level, not the fn level
10:14	Anderkent	right, because it's just (with-meta (fn*) ...)
10:14	Anderkent	yeah i see your point
10:14	Anderkent	ugh
10:14	Bronsa	not really, it's (def x (fn* ..)) (.setMacro #'x)
10:15	Anderkent	,(apply @#'or [false false true])
10:15	clojurebot	true
10:15	Anderkent	heh
10:16	Bronsa	you're calling (or true) with that
10:16	Anderkent	oh right
10:16	Anderkent	,(apply @#'or nil nil [false false true])
10:16	clojurebot	(clojure.core/let [or__3943__auto__ false] (if or__3943__auto__ or__3943__auto__ (clojure.core/or false true)))
10:16	Anderkent	that makes more sense
10:24	Balveda	What's a good CLJS library for jquery like functionality?
10:25	Anderkent	only one I've heard of is dommy
10:26	xeqi	Balveda: https://github.com/ibdknox/jayq is a wrapper around jquery. I've been using https://github.com/Prismatic/dommy/ lately
10:26	ddellacosta	Balveda: I've used a lot of domina, which works well enough, but I feel like the library is rapidly falling into disuse as maintenance seems to really have lagged. To echo Anderkent, dommy really seems to have promise.
10:26	ddellacosta	and what xeqi says re: jayq, if you want something that explicitly wraps up jQuery
10:27	ddellacosta	Balveda: I should add, you can use the google closure lib stuff directly pretty easily as well, they are "built in" so to speak.
10:27	ddellacosta	actually, I came on here to ask if anyone knows the fate of domain--are there any plans to revive it?
10:28	ddellacosta	domain -> domina
10:28	xeqi	google closure lib stuff: http://docs.closure-library.googlecode.com/git/closure_goog_dom_dom.js.html
10:37	silasdavis	what's a nice clojurey way to fire an async task, but only start it if the last one has finished, and only ever queue at most one
10:46	silasdavis	can I set a maximum queue size for an agent
10:46	crocket	Is there a good Datalog library?
10:48	crocket	I'm looking for SQL DB alternatives.
10:51	Rubix	&(doseq [e (list 0 1 1 2 3)] (println e))
10:51	lazybot	⇒ 0 1 1 2 3 nil
10:52	Rubix	&(map :name (filter #(contains? :type) (:members (clojure.reflect/reflect "foobar"))))
10:52	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: sandbox91102$eval135274$fn
10:55	noncom	read-string reads one form from the string, but is there any common method to read the next form, and then next.. so i have a sequence of forms?
10:56	Rubix	&(map :name (filter #(contains? % :type) (:members (clojure.reflect/reflect "foobar"))))
10:56	lazybot	⇒ (count value CASE_INSENSITIVE_ORDER serialVersionUID hash offset serialPersistentFields)
10:57	Rubix	there we go... any idea how I can use data member names to automagically build a key-value map from a pojo ?
10:57	jkkramer	noncom: you can find that in several utility libs, such as flatland's useful
10:58	noncom	thank you very much!
11:00	noncom	Rubix: maybe you find some inspiration here: http://aurellem.org/cortex/html/util.html
11:01	Rubix	noncom: what is all this
11:01	Rubix	?
11:05	noncom	Rubix: sorry, i totally messed it up
11:06	noncom	that's a very different thing
11:11	Rubix	noncom: it's okay
11:13	noncom	Rubix: somewhere on that website i saw a good example of wrapping java classes and stuff into clojure,much like you said, but I can't it find there now.. maybe i remember it wrong or it has moved..
11:14	crocket	hmm
11:14	crocket	Clojure doesn't seem to have nice database libraries yet.
11:14	crocket	sqlkorma and ClojureQL look promising, but they lack ORM capabilities.
11:14	Rubix	noncom: I've got some hacky java.data from-java defmethods, but I don't want to write them for every java class I have
11:14	sdegutis	crocket: datomic is the best db lib I've seen to date
11:15	sdegutis	crocket: (in any language actually)
11:15	crocket	sdegutis, However, datomic-free puts a lot of restrictions.
11:15	sdegutis	crocket: like?
11:15	noncom	Rubix: there he somehow took the names of the fields/classes, turned them into keywords or symbols and related them to clojure.. sorry, can't say more, I don't remember..
11:16	crocket	sdegutis, datomic-free supports embedded datalog engine, and embedded memory database.
11:16	sdegutis	crocket: I don't see how that's a restriction...
11:16	callen	crocket: Korma is pretty intentionally designed not to be an ORM and you're going to have a very hard time convincing anybody capable of writing the sort of library you want that it's a good idea.
11:16	crocket	sdegutis, I don't plan to use memory database.
11:17	sdegutis	crocket: you don't have to use a memory database, that's only there to help you for testing
11:17	callen	crocket: if you have specific recommendations or requests, I highly suggest you post them to the github issues for Korma.
11:17	Rubix	noncom: if you find it again, please send a link
11:17	callen	sdegutis: inmem dbs make test runs a lot faster <3
11:17	crocket	sdegutis, I don't know which databases datalog engine supports.
11:17	callen	crocket: the default free edition of Datomic has free and mem. Free is h2.
11:17	crocket	h2 is mem
11:17	callen	the pro edition...man why don't you just read the documentation?
11:18	callen	free persists to disk.
11:18	sdegutis	crocket: Free includes "Transactor-local Storage" which persists to disk
11:19	crocket	sdegutis, oops
11:19	noncom	Rubix: maybe point 1.3 here: http://aurellem.org/cortex/html/world.html
11:19	crocket	sdegutis, Does it mean it can persist on postgresql?
11:19	callen	efjknrghnldfghg
11:19	sdegutis	crocket: I know several people who say they use Free in production and don't have a need to upgrade to Pro
11:19	callen	crocket: it uses H2.
11:19	sdegutis	crocket: I dunno what H2 is but it uses that
11:19	crocket	Can H2 persist on disk?
11:19	sdegutis	crocket: http://www.h2database.com/html/main.html
11:20	callen	crocket: http://docs.datomic.com/storage.html just read the docs.
11:20	sdegutis	callen: to be fair, I couldn't easily find that page from their home page
11:21	callen	sdegutis: found it with google and a two word query
11:21	callen	and I just woke up.
11:21	sdegutis	callen: then you're smarter than us
11:21	callen	no I'm just less lazy.
11:21	callen	and actually google things and read documentation.
11:21	sdegutis	if you say so
11:22	callen	in no way is googling `datomic storage` novel.
11:23	sdegutis	callen: not everyone thinks the same way, give us a break
11:23	crocket	callen, It's sad that datomic-free doesn't support postgresql anyway.
11:23	callen	sdegutis: that's what I'm fixing. I'm impressing into you two that you should just google/read.
11:24	sdegutis	callen: no, you're just making people defensive
11:24	callen	querying other humans (a high latency request) should be reserved for when it's not actually facile to get the answer with obvious google queries.
11:24	sdegutis	And defensive people don't usually think about how to improve themselves, they think of how to defend themselves.
11:24	callen	by a sleepy coffee-less grumpy programmer first thing in the morning no less.
11:25	sdegutis	You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
11:28	seangrov`	sdegutis: We have a fruit-fly trap here... telling you, apple-cider vinegar, dozens and dozens more flies
11:28	callen	seangrov`: you missed out on a great conversation after the meetup.
11:28	seangrov`	Will scroll up and check it out in a bit
11:29	callen	seangrov`: no no, it was in person.
11:29	callen	seangrov`: at the meetup, after the meetup. there were 5 of us.
11:29	seangrov`	Ah, bummer
11:34	sdegutis	Heh, I wanted str.indexOf() the whole time.
11:34	sdegutis	Should have figured it would be in Java.
11:35	TimMc	seangrov`: No fair, those are vinegar flies.
11:35	sdegutis	So btw, with type hints, parsing my string is the same speed as tokenizing the same string without type hints, which is a 5x increase in speed. That's pretty cool.
11:41	Rubix	noncom: that will give me a starting point, thanks very much!
11:53	cmajor7	given a snippet of "lazy-select" for korma: https://gist.github.com/toby/3783867 how to call that given a full "statement": e.g. (lazy-select users (fields :x :y) (where {:x 42 :y "fourty-two"})) ?
11:53	cmajor7	I feel there is something quote/paren/slice related..
11:54	coventry	Would it make sense for multiarity-for-speed functions to be built with macros, so that they could go all the way out to 20-arity?
11:54	cmajor7	,(source partial)
11:54	clojurebot	Source not found\n
11:55	cmajor7	coventry: take a look at (source partial), it is built upto 3 though..
11:55	coventry	cmajor7: I was looking at it. Doesn't use macros.
11:56	cmajor7	coventry: right, and it is fast too
11:56	cmajor7	coventry: and composable
11:57	coventry	WRT fast, it only goes to three arguments. WRT composable, it would still be a function, just constructed programattically. Like `(defn partial ~@(loop which makes the various arity signatures.))
11:58	cmajor7	coventry: is there a real performance problem, or just "curiosity"?
12:00	cmajor7	coventry: in your example there could only be a single "defn partial" with a fixed n params for a given namespace
12:01	coventry	Curiosity. It might be an easy win, though. I think you could do a multi-arity defn the way I outlined. Hang on...
12:12	hyPiRion	noncom: it was clojurebot who gave it to you, I've just overheard earlier conversations
12:12	hyPiRion	~mapply
12:12	clojurebot	You have to do something like (defn mapply [f & args] (apply f (apply concat (butlast args) (last args)))), which just goes to show why unrolled keyword args are a bad idea
12:12	pizzasauce	s
12:14	silasdavis	I'm trying to implement an agent that effectively has a maximum queue of length 1
12:14	silasdavis	I'd like to avoid using an is_running flag that I have to set and unset if possible
12:14	silasdavis	is there a nice way to do this
12:14	silasdavis	?
12:14	eric_normand	silasdavis: what happens when you send to an agent that already has a full queue?
12:16	hyPiRion	And what happens when you request an agent that has no elements in the queue?
12:16	hyPiRion	(And, why not use Java's blocking queues?)
12:17	tobyp	cmajor7 also see this: https://gist.github.com/toby/113814480a4e79d186c9
12:17	silasdavis	eric_normand, didn't know the queue could be full...
12:17	tobyp	which I use in addition to the other one
12:18	eric_normand	silasdavis: you said it had a maximum of 1. if there's one in it, it's full, no?
12:19	tobyp	kc = korma.core
12:20	mdrogalis	silasdavis: Yeah, using a queue is definitely what you want here.
12:20	silasdavis	eric_normand, sorry that's what I'm trying to implement. I can think of various ways to do it, but not being very familiar with clojure's async plumbing I'm wondering if I can exploit some feature of agents that already exists
12:21	mdrogalis	Blocking queues & core.async are straightforward, you can pick it up fast.
12:21	eric_normand	silasdavis: So I don't understand exactly what you want to do.
12:22	eric_normand	silasdavis: but perhaps you should check out executor service.
12:22	eric_normand	silasdavis: which has a queue (you decide which) and runs jobs in n threads (you decide n)
12:22	cmajor7	tobyp: thx. not sure I get it :) can the first one (https://gist.github.com/toby/3783867) be used by itself? and if yes, how do I pass that statement.. as a string?
12:23	eric_normand	silasdavis: and I am happy to help
12:23	muhoo	whenever i have more than 3 args i end up just passing a map instead
12:23	eric_normand	silasdavis: I recently did something similar myself
12:24	muhoo	haven't really dug into keyword args. huge lists of args smells funny to me.
12:26	tobyp	cmajor7 yes the first one can be used by itself but it takes a korma query as the "statement" not a string
12:27	tobyp	anything you'd make with (select* ...) in korma
12:30	silasdavis	eric_normand, thanks
12:30	silasdavis	I'll be using a ScheduledExecutor through at-at
12:30	silasdavis	I have one thread-pool watching some filessytem locations
12:30	sandbags	afternoon
12:31	silasdavis	I'll have those functions add to a blocking pool
12:31	silasdavis	blocking queue sorry
12:32	silasdavis	and have some other periodic funciton process the queue
12:33	eric_normand	silasdavis: and the queue needs to be length 1?
12:33	eric_normand	silasdavis: sounds like you can use agents that read from a blockingqueue
12:34	aaelony	A few days ago I set DISPLAY=localhost:10 to be able to view x11 things from a clojure project. I didn't anticipate that this would interfere with anything, but now when I try "lein ring server-headless" I get a nasty error msg of "Exception in thread "main" java.lang.InternalError: Can't connect to X11 window server using '' as the value of the DISPLAY variable." I've tried various values for the DISPLAY without success. Any help
12:34	aaelony	insight as to the cause appreciated.
12:35	silasdavis	eric_normand, actually I think I can actually just use an atom 'next' instead of a queue
12:35	silasdavis	either it is a function or nil
12:36	silasdavis	then just poll it
12:38	eric_normand	be careful with race conditions
12:39	s4muel	aaelony: give DISPLAY=0:0 a shot
12:39	s4muel	aaelony: that's the default IIRC
12:40	mtp	:0
12:40	technomancy	server-headless shouldn't care though
12:40	mtp	not 0:0
12:40	mtp	aaelony: also 'export DISPLAY'
12:40	mtp	otherwise the subprocesses your shell spawns won't get that in the environment
12:41	coventry	cmajor7: Not sure how to get the eval out of there, but this demonstrates that it is possible to define multiarity functions in this way: https://www.refheap.com/18396
12:42	coventry	The multiarity-for-speed functions in clojure/core all have a similar structure, so you could probably make a macro to get them all.
12:45	noncom	hyPiRion: right, now I remember! it was him
12:48	coventry	Oh, that leaves off the higher-arity branch, too. Anyway...
12:50	sdegutis	In programming, there's a fine line between right/wrong and subjective opinion.
12:51	sdegutis	Also, core.async is really really cool.
12:53	dnolen	sdegutis: it is!
12:53	sdegutis	I think I now have no more reason to envy Go.
12:57	callen	the moment I started working with a queue and callbacks, I suddenly had a lot of reasons to enjoy using core.async
12:57	callen	immensely grateful it exists.
12:58	sdegutis	:)
12:59	dnolen	sdegutis: for ClojureScript it's a killer app, might be for Clojure as well but I'm more of a front end person.
13:00	kmicu	killer lib
13:06	mdrogalis	dnolen: Combining j.u.c blocking queues and go blocks make life pretty awesome too
13:06	mdrogalis	Suddenly you can produce/consume with much much greater parallelism
13:06	sdegutis	dnolen: That surprises me, since I figured core.async on CljS would be less useful on account of lack of threads.
13:08	dnolen	sdegutis: client side apps are highly asynchronous and thus highly concurrent, so core.async is a pretty fantastic tool. as Rob Pike says, concurrency != parallelism
13:08	bbloom	dnolen: s/client side apps/networked apps/
13:08	technomancy	I've never understood Pike's definition of parallelism
13:09	bbloom	dnolen: personally, i'm much more excited about doing streaming protocols instead of REST style APIs
13:09	dnolen	bbloom: yes, but GUIs trump networked apps in nearly everywhere in terms of complexity IMO ;)
13:09	bbloom	dnolen: i don't buy in to the notion that UIs are inherently asynchronous :-P
13:09	technomancy	it seems he uses it to mean "two things are literally happening at once" rather than "the same computation is being performed on different pieces of data at the same time"
13:09	dnolen	bbloom: I'll wait patiently for that blog post.
13:09	bbloom	dnolen: but that's just the game developer in me talking
13:09	technomancy	which doesn't really make sense given ... the English definition
13:09	sdegutis	dnolen: heh good point
13:10	bbloom	dnolen: i've got far too many projects going on at once. working on the UI stuff today, trying to make that the #1 priority
13:11	sdegutis	technomancy: I think he focuses more on "concurrency" (by which he means a program designed to be split up into multiple linear steps that communicate with one another via channels) and defines "parallelism" as "what you thought concurrency was but it isn't because of my defintion"
13:11	dnolen	sdegutis: I don't think his definition is that complicated, people had to deal with concurrency long before they had real parallelism
13:11	technomancy	sdegutis: yeah but doesn't he use "concurrency" to mean "you can think of it as things happening at the same time even if they're not"
13:12	technomancy	which I would call "the illusion of concurrency"
13:12	bbloom	technomancy: it's pretty simple: concurrency means that two things occur over overlapping time spans. parallelism means that any some particular point sample, two things are simultaneously occurring
13:12	dnolen	technomancy: that doesn't make sense to me.
13:12	bbloom	s/any/at/
13:12	sdegutis	technomancy: the best analogy I know of that explains what Rob Pike thinks concurrency means is "source-code-centric parallelism" rather than "execution-time parallelism"
13:12	technomancy	bbloom: that's not what concurrency means in english though
13:12	sdegutis	i.e. your source code is doing multiple things at once, not the runtime.
13:13	technomancy	sdegutis: right, hence the illusion
13:13	dnolen	technomancy: if it's single core and something is diving up the time for your it's effectively concurrent. whether it's really running at the same time is irrelevant.
13:13	bbloom	technomancy: and parallel means something different in english too
13:13	dnolen	technomancy: not an illusion, since you have to deal w/ it.
13:13	sdegutis	heh
13:14	sdegutis	But even if it wasn't running in parallel, I really liked thinking in goroutines/channels.
13:14	technomancy	taking words and inventing new meanings that are the opposite of their existing definitions is literally the worst thing you can do.
13:14	sdegutis	It's another step in structuring my code properly.
13:14	bbloom	technomancy: i don't think it's the opposite definition at all....
13:15	callen	we've had this conversation before guys
13:15	callen	it didn't end well
13:15	sdegutis	Look, let's all just agree that Erlang > Go, ok?
13:16	technomancy	dnolen: "effectively concurrent" would be a good way to put it
13:16	technomancy	vs "literally concurrent"
13:17	bbloom	technomancy: i think the point your missing is that parallelism implies concurrency
13:17	technomancy	bbloom: eh; I understand that
13:17	sdegutis	When I first started learning about channels/goroutines, I remember being confused by this, so I looked up "concurrency" in the dictionary and it said "existing, happening, or done at the same time".
13:17	callen	bbloom: it doesn't have to.
13:17	callen	parallelism and concurrency are independent of each other.
13:18	sdegutis	And that strongly implies that at runtime, the things are executing ("happening") all "at the same time"
13:18	bbloom	callen: how can something be parallel and not concurrent?
13:18	technomancy	that's just another way of saying literal concurrency is a subset of effective concurrency, which is basically a truism
13:18	callen	bbloom: half the stuff Haskellers do.
13:19	coventry	Is there a way to make ##`{~@(range 10)} DWIM?
13:19	bbloom	callen: you're gonna have to be more specific
13:19	callen	bbloom: contrived example, array with two elements
13:19	bbloom	coventry: what do you mean?
13:19	callen	map an fn across said array
13:19	callen	single thread? no concurrency, no parallelism.
13:19	dnolen	,`(~@(into [] (range 10)))
13:19	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
13:19	dnolen	coventry: ^ or something like that
13:20	callen	map across the fn in parallel haskell style and you're parallelizing but not introducing concurrency or non-determinism into your code.
13:20	technomancy	I'm gonna keep calling it "literally concurrent" kthxbai
13:20	callen	you're just performing the work "simultaneously" for the purposes of the user-programmer.
13:20	coventry	bbloom, dnolen, some way to syntax-quote straight into a map.
13:20	TimMc	&`{~@(range 10) ~@[]}
13:20	lazybot	⇒ {0 1, 2 3, 4 5, 6 7, 8 9}
13:20	hyPiRion	(inc TimMc) ; beat me to it
13:20	lazybot	⇒ 47
13:20	Bronsa	coventry: not without some trick
13:21	TimMc	coventry: ^ Only via a trick.
13:21	technomancy	Bronsa: tricks are what we do best around here
13:21	coventry	TimMc: thanks. What is the trick there?
13:21	TimMc	(inc hyPiRion) ; for actually coming up with that in the first place
13:21	lazybot	⇒ 22
13:21	callen	bbloom: thus, parallelism without concurrency.
13:21	dnolen	coventry: oops sorry missing the bit about hash-map
13:21	callen	http://existentialtype.wordpress.com/2011/03/17/parallelism-is-not-concurrency/
13:21	TimMc	coventry: Reader expects even number of expressions in the { form.
13:21	callen	as I've said time and time before, concurrency is non-determinism.
13:21	silasdavis	how can I do something like (map .getProtocol urls) instead of (map #(.getProtocol %) urls)?
13:21	coventry	dnolen: No worries. TimMc: Got it, thanks.
13:22	rasmusto	&`{~@(range 9) ~@[]}
13:22	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No value supplied for key: 8
13:22	TimMc	coventry: So you give it a second one that expands to nothing.
13:22	technomancy	pike's way of redefining things kinda reminds me of http://martinfowler.com/articles/mocksArentStubs.html
13:22	technomancy	"hey everyone, it would be great if you could start using these existing terms the way I say you should, thanks"
13:23	callen	Pike is a religious lout.
13:23	sdegutis	Welp, my parser's not complete, but getting there.. https://www.refheap.com/18399
13:24	bbloom	callen: i've read that before & i don't know if i buy that argument. Bob Harper is clearly a smart guy, but I'm not sure I buy in to many of his view points
13:24	callen	bbloom: I don't buy into everything he says but he's far from the only person that understands concurrency and parallelism are independent of each other conceptually.
13:24	dnolen	bbloom: understatement about Mr. Harper :)
13:24	callen	bbloom: concurrency is principally about non-determinism, systems for managing concurrency are about controlling non-determinism.
13:25	bbloom	dnolen: the smart guy point, or the non-buyin part? :-P
13:25	dnolen	bbloom: both
13:25	callen	this is something I've understood since even back before I'd taken FP seriously, I don't know why this is a contentious point to make.
13:25	dnolen	bbloom: incredibly smart, and says things I don't buy at all.
13:25	dnolen	callen: +1
13:26	bbloom	callen: i don't buy the argument that concurrency is inherently about non-determinism either
13:26	bbloom	callen: there are deterministic concurrency models
13:27	callen	the second part of my sentence was designed to address that
13:27	bbloom	callen: such as http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4699
13:28	bbloom	callen: "determinism" and "non-determinism" are already useful adjectives. if you redefine concurrency to be about non-determinism, then you've eliminated a useful word without gaining anything
13:28	callen	no, it's a bit more subtle than that.
13:28	bbloom	it's also worth mentioning that words change meaning over time, particularly subtle ones
13:28	callen	and the second part of my sentence was designed to address deterministic methods for controlling concurrency
13:28	bbloom	particularly in engineering fields
13:28	callen	you could think of it in terms of interleaving if you wanted, but that's usually missing the more critical point.
13:29	hyPiRion	words change meaning over time, except in Clojure, where we reverse the flow of time and say that simple is not easy
13:29	bbloom	i need 1) a pair of words to describe whether or not things happen with predictable order & repeatable results and 2) a pair of words to describe whether any point sample will include simultaneously occurring operations
13:29	callen	bbloom: also that system you linked isn't fully deterministic by any means.
13:30	bbloom	dnolen: i take particular issue with the "uni-typed" languages nonsense
13:31	shaungilchrist	I suggest something related to groundhog day
13:31	dnolen	bbloom: I take massive issue with that as well. Far as I can tell non of strong typing goons have actually read any Haskell B. Curry
13:31	bbloom	dnolen: it's an issue of whether or not your VM's objects are tagless. Haskell is tagless… you know… except for sum types, which have tags…. and represent 99% of useful code in haskell
13:31	dnolen	s/non/none
13:32	bbloom	dnolen: but i don't understand why anybody would want a tagless VM except for some key performance cases…. seems obvious to me that the preferable default is to have fully reflective objects for debugging, which implies tags
13:33	dnolen	bbloom: I think the point of tagless is simplicity and performance - but I agree it's a big tradeoff
13:33	bbloom	dnolen: but it's certainly not simple!
13:33	bbloom	dnolen: in order to be tagless, that means you must infer type from context
13:33	bbloom	dnolen: you're complecting type with access path
13:33	dnolen	bbloom: well simple in one regard, certainly the ramifications of reflection are pervasive
13:34	bbloom	dnolen: but consider discriminated vs non-descriminated unions in C
13:34	bbloom	dnolen: if i know from context, this union is a Foo and that one is a Bar, then i don't need that FooBarType enum
13:34	bbloom	dnolen: that's what tagless is about, to me anyway
13:35	bbloom	dnolen: that's why tagless representations are insane to me on the wire
13:35	dnolen	bbloom: this is true
13:35	bbloom	dnolen: b/c you have fundamentally two different paths: the code on both ends of the wire
13:36	bbloom	dnolen: this is also what the CLR's "value types" are about
13:36	bbloom	dnolen: only value types complect tagless with copy by value
13:37	bbloom	brb
13:40	dnolen	this is kind cool https://github.com/niitsuma/Racket-miniKanren/tree/recursive
13:40	dnolen	miniKanren with support for infinite structures
13:40	eric_normand	bbloom: I think the uni-type idea (which only makes sense from a static typing point of view) IS the advantage
13:40	eric_normand	bbloom: one type means one interface
13:41	eric_normand	bbloom: which means better interoperability and reuse
13:41	dnolen	eric_normand: but this critique of uni-type is just false IMO. Haskell said you can overlay types based on what context you care about.
13:42	eric_normand	dnolen: so in that sense, type is more like haskell (language) type class?
13:43	eric_normand	dnolen: I must read this. Have a reference?
13:43	dnolen	eric_normand: not really, he specifically said keep pure untyped lambda calculus and you can place the types elsewhere
13:43	dnolen	eric_normand: which is effectively what Clojure programmers are doing!
13:43	eric_normand	dnolen: I see.
13:44	dissipate__	hmm, has anyone considered a web framework that is like opa where you write your entire web app in 1 language and the framework decides where to run the code automatically (on the server or the client)? except instead of javascript, it would be clojurescript?
13:44	eric_normand	dnolen: you are opening my head, which seems to be a can of worms!
13:44	dnolen	eric_normand: this is pretty dense and I've only skimmed it but http://people.uleth.ca/~jonathan.seldin/RCS2.pdf
13:45	dnolen	eric_normand: I only came to this realization because I heard Philip Wadler point this out
13:45	eric_normand	dnolen: static type checking is like parsing: easy to write a checker/parser, but hard to give error messages
13:45	dnolen	eric_normand: then I started hunting around for references
13:45	eric_normand	dnolen: thanks
13:46	dnolen	eric_normand: author of that paper also co-authored this which looks really good http://www.amazon.com/Lambda-Calculus-Combinators-Introduction-Roger-Hindley/dp/0521898854
13:46	dissipate__	has anyone considered a clojurescript web framework that uses node.js on the back end?
13:49	callen	dissipate__: you're the first. go for it.
13:49	dnolen	dissipate__: I fail to see the advantage over using the JVM on the backend. But I think people like the fact they can use Clojure on front/back even if it can't really be done transparently
13:49	dissipate__	callen: are you aware of the Opa web framework?
13:49	callen	dissipate__: yes
13:50	dissipate__	callen: so you know what i am talking about? how it is all done in Opalang and it figures out where to run any particular function automatically, but still allows you to tag a function to run on either one specifically
13:50	callen	dissipate__: yes.
13:50	eric_normand	dnolen: so much to read
13:50	dissipate__	callen: so why not the same with clojurescript? write your entire web app in clojurescript and the framework determines where to run the code?
13:50	callen	dissipate__: take a look at shoreleave. cleaner model.
13:52	eric_normand	dnolen: I agree with the "weak uni-typed argument" (my own name)
13:52	dissipate__	callen: link? shore leave is giving me a bunch of unrelated hits on google
13:52	eric_normand	dnolen: which basically states that given a language with static type system, the only way to implement a dynamic type system (a la type tags) is to make every value of the same type
13:52	callen	dissipate__: https://www.google.com/search?q=github+clojure+shoreleave&oq=github+clojure+shoreleave&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i64.4161j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
13:52	eric_normand	dnolen: (same static type)
13:53	dnolen	eric_normand: yes this whole view is just wrong
13:53	callen	SegFaultAX: wakie wakie ^^
13:53	dnolen	eric_normand: it's Church notion of typing vs. Curry notion of typing
13:53	callen	SegFaultAX: your uni-typed bullshit manifesto is getting called out. Time for school.
13:54	eric_normand	dnolen: well, I agree that it is wrong. but it's the only thing Haskell lets you do!
13:54	bbloom	eric_normand: http://existentialtype.wordpress.com/2011/03/19/dynamic-languages-are-static-languages/
13:54	dissipate__	callen: and how is that cleaner?
13:54	bbloom	eric_normand: that's what dnolen and i were discussing
13:54	callen	dissipate__: it involves less cancer.
13:54	dnolen	eric_normand: yes Church notion of typing is a straight jacket, my theory why Milner got bored and moved onto Ubiquitous Abstract Machine
13:54	cmajor7	tobyp: had to take off to play some ping pong. thank you for defining the "statement", I'll give "select*" a shot
13:54	dissipate__	callen: cancer??
13:54	lazybot	dissipate__: Definitely not.
13:55	tobyp	cmajor7 cool, let me know how it goes
13:55	bbloom	eric_normand: dnolen: in my opinion, tags are concrete things that exist on objects to help you differentiate them. like the .getType method on java objects. I'd call that getTag :-P
13:55	eric_normand	bbloom: yes, I recently read that
13:55	callen	dissipate__: http://pages.citebite.com/b2x0j8q1megb
13:56	sdegutis	dnolen: I can imagine how core.async could turn an otherwise ugly callback chain into a linear workflow.
13:56	bbloom	eric_normand: dnolen: types are a more abstract notion. i view types as little monotonically increasing database values, like logic variables in core.logic or sussman's propegators. there are many type systems, since they are many logic systems. a type is the sum of proven or asserted facts about some particular variable or object
13:56	dnolen	sdegutis: internally yes, though you do have lift all your async code into world of channels. But I think it's fair tradeoff for being able to write sensible code
13:57	bbloom	eric_normand: dnolen: the other interesting concept that isn't discussed much was pointed out to me recently by kovas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_(linguistics)
13:57	dissipate__	callen: you have a point. i'm definitely no fan of node.js
13:58	eric_normand	bloom, dnolen: I totally disagree with the major thesis of the uni-type argument: "rather than affording the freedom to ignore types, they instead impose the bondage of restricting attention to a single type!"
13:58	sdegutis	dnolen: not that I'm a huge front-end dev, but I've seen solution after solution for this problem in the past 5 years, and none of them seemed very elegant. This one may be.
13:58	bbloom	eric_normand: dnolen: you might have an object '(+ 2 4) with tag clojure.lang.PersistentList, and it might have a type that includes IPersistentList, and ISequential, and a whole bunch of other stuff, the head of that expression is clojure.core/+
13:58	bbloom	eric_normand: dnolen: but the "head" of 5 is Integer :-P
13:58	dnolen	sdegutis: it's the best I've seen, that's for sure. If we can drag everybody into maybe we'll actually come up with something better
13:58	sdegutis	heh
13:58	dnolen	bbloom: interesting
13:58	callen	sdegutis: if somebody asked me how to write a SPA, I'd say to do it in core.async or angularjs.
13:59	bbloom	dnolen: tags, types, and heads… on my infinitely growing blog TODO list :-P
13:59	callen	bbloom: what's infinite growth?
13:59	callen	infinite acceleration or unceasing incremental growth?
14:03	eric_normand	bbloom, dnolen: adhering to a single type is no more a bondage than adhering to HTTP is bondage
14:03	eric_normand	bbloom, dnolen: in fact, it is freeing in that it solves a very difficult n x m problem
14:04	dnolen	eric_normand: honestly part of me agrees w/ Harper on this point. There no such thing as uni-typed anyway the types are somewhere. It's just a matter of whether they are part of the terms or somewhere (including your head)
14:04	dnolen	"somewhere else"
14:05	eric_normand	bbloom, dnolen: and this is on top of the fact that static checking and dynamic type tags are not mutually exclusive
14:05	eric_normand	dnolen: agreed
14:05	bbloom	eric_normand: yeah, i think at the representation level, it's a good thing
14:06	eric_normand	dnolen: uni-typed is always "for a given static type checker"
14:07	bbloom	eric_normand: right. it's always a matter of perspective
14:08	eric_normand	dnolen: for instance "the only way X expression is allowed by Y type checker is if X uses a single type in Y"
14:09	bbloom	eric_normand: any given object might have a VM tag, a metadata tag, a first element in a list that acts as a tag, a key in a map, etc. same idea applies to types
14:09	eric_normand	bbloom, dnolen: I'm glad we're all in agreement!
14:09	bbloom	eric_normand: heh, yup :-)
14:10	eric_normand	bbloom, dnolen: I'd love to see a plethora of static analysis (not only type!) checkers for Clojure
14:10	eric_normand	bbloom: especially programmable ones that you can customize for your invariants
14:10	bbloom	eric_normand: well, we got type hints for java tags, plus core.typed for general type theoretic consistency checking & there are like half a dozen schema systems
14:11	bbloom	eric_normand: i'd personally like to see a core.logic powered pluggable theorem prover… get on that dnolen :-P
14:11	eric_normand	dnolen: yeah, why haven't you done that? :)
14:13	coventry	The first two arguments to the "." special form are special, and the rest are evaluated as clojure, right? I'm talking about just "." by itself, not any of the macros which expand into it like (.length "foo")
14:13	bbloom	(doc .)
14:13	clojurebot	Huh?
14:13	bbloom	aw.
14:14	bbloom	wait a minute....
14:14	bbloom	##(doc .)
14:14	lazybot	⇒ "Special: .; The instance member form works for both fields and methods.\n They all expand into calls to the dot operator at macroexpansion time."
14:14	bbloom	yeah. wtf. i wanna file a bug report on clojurebot
14:15	coventry	bbloom: That has a lot about the macros, not so much about the special form "." which they macroexpand into. ##(macroexpand '(.length "foo"))
14:15	lazybot	⇒ (. "foo" length)
14:15	bbloom	http://clojure.org/java_interop#dot explains it
14:15	bbloom	coventry: go to "The Dot special form" section
14:20	coventry	Thanks, I read that before but was confused. Reading it again having played around a bit, I get it now. I guess the answer is no, (. instance-expr (method-symbol args*)) doesn't match that pattern.
14:25	sdegutis	Oh, I get it.
14:26	TimMc	hyPiRion: nephila has an example graph in its README now; thanks for the tip. https://github.com/timmc/nephila
14:26	sdegutis	The Ruby community fell into the trap of putting bikeshedding into action.
14:26	sdegutis	And the JS community.
14:26	sdegutis	That explains everything.
14:26	coventry	Hmm, "." will silently take extra arguments ##(. "foo" (charAt 2) 5)
14:26	lazybot	⇒ \o
14:27	TimMc	coventry: As will var.
14:27	eric_normand	would love a static information system that told me the invariants of an expression (locally)
14:27	coventry	TimMc: Thanks.
14:28	TimMc	The perils of hardcoded forms.
14:28	eric_normand	meaning, given (map f xs), it would tell me "f has to implement IFn, xs must be ISeqable, etc"
14:28	TimMc	*special forms
14:33	sdegutis	I think Google has the right approach: any sufficiently complex tool needs to be built custom-made from scratch.
14:33	sdegutis	When's the next Conj?
14:33	sdegutis	oh wait, googling
14:33	callen	sdegutis: you're learning >:)
14:34	TimMc	"The beatings will continue until googling improves."
14:35	sdegutis	callen: more like "now I'm remembering"
14:35	sdegutis	I used to be a bad IRC citizen and then turned into a good one, and sometimes bad habits resurge for a tiny while.
14:42	callen	sdegutis: http://i.imgur.com/6DXhpyF.png
14:44	sdegutis	uhh
14:46	TimMc	To get your random API learnin' of the day, just run: (->> clojure.core quote the-ns ns-publics seq rand-nth val meta ((juxt :name :doc)) (map println) dorun)
14:47	bbloom	TimMc: glorious.
14:47	callen	TimMc: <3 love it.
14:48	TimMc	alias learn=java -jar ~/.m2/repository/org/clojure/clojure/1.5.1/clojure-1.5.1.jar -e '(->> clojure.core quote the-ns ns-publics seq rand-nth val meta ((juxt :name :doc)) (map println) dorun)'
14:48	technomancy	learnyousomeclojure
14:49	TimMc	(Oh, put some quotes around "java ...")
14:50	callen	TimMc: thank you. :)
14:51	rasmusto	TimMc: haha, cool
14:53	TimMc	An alias I already have is alias cljhere="java -jar ~/.m2/repository/org/clojure/clojure/1.5.1/clojure-1.5.1.jar -e" which allows me to write things like cljhere '(java.util.UUID/randomUUID)'
14:53	rasmusto	TimMc: you can put :arglists in there too
14:55	technomancy	TimMc: grench eval dude
14:56	TimMc	heh
14:57	TimMc	Still calling it grench?
14:57	drusellers	trying to find a word I can google for so I can understand the #' - context - (-> #'compojure-routes middle-ware middle-ware2)
14:57	technomancy	well... yeah
14:57	callen	TimMc: why not?
14:57	TimMc	OK, for some reason I thought you were planning on changing it.
14:58	callen	drusellers: (-> (var compojure-routes) middle-ware middle-ware2)
14:58	TimMc	&'#'foo
14:58	lazybot	⇒ (var foo)
14:59	drusellers	thanks :)
15:00	hyPiRion	TimMc: I want to add this in for a dependency too. Is that possible? E.g. leiningen-core AND leiningen
15:00	hyPiRion	nephila, that is
15:01	TimMc	Not yet!
15:01	technomancy	TimMc: I'm irrationally attached to the name despite it being objectively bad
15:01	TimMc	That's what I figured. :-)
15:01	TimMc	hyPiRion: Patches welcome! :-D
15:01	hyPiRion	TimMc: Argh, now I have something to do for this weekend
15:01	hyPiRion	clever girl.
15:02	TimMc	This is still mostly a throwaway project.
15:04	callen	TimMc: wait what project?
15:04	TimMc	nephila
15:04	callen	https://github.com/timmc/nephila ?
15:04	TimMc	https://github.com/timmc/nephila
15:04	callen	okay, thanks.
15:05	sdegutis	TimMc: to expand on that a bit: http://clojuretip.herokuapp.com/
15:05	TimMc	sdegutis: Nice.
15:05	callen	sdegutis: did you just make that?
15:05	sdegutis	Yes.
15:05	callen	lol.
15:05	callen	(inc sdegutis)
15:05	lazybot	⇒ 3
15:06	TimMc	(inc sdegutis)
15:06	lazybot	⇒ 4
15:06	sdegutis	For v2, I plan to make it cycle all of them per session.
15:06	sdegutis	So you don't get the same one for a long time.
15:06	callen	very cool.
15:07	TimMc	sdegutis: You could grovel over github and build a frequency table, then weight rarer vars more heavily.
15:07	sdegutis	TimMc: if it skips common ones, that wouldn't help newbies as much
15:07	gfredericks	and it would probably lean toward useless things
15:07	TimMc	Just like me!
15:07	gfredericks	unchecked-add
15:07	seangrov`	TimMc: Any way to get nephila to work with cljs?
15:07	gfredericks	locking
15:08	TimMc	seangrov`: No idea!
15:08	hyPiRion	TimMc: http://hypirion.com/imgs/leincore-deps.png <- Leiningen core. Trust me, it's not complex at all.
15:08	TimMc	hyPiRion: That's nice and clean.
15:08	coventry	Can clojure objects have any influence over how they are displayed at the repl? Something like python's __repr__ and __str__ special methods?
15:08	hyPiRion	TimMc: many arrows though
15:09	technomancy	hyPiRion: doesn't catch the runtime-require =(
15:09	amalloy	&(doc print-method)
15:09	lazybot	⇒ "; "
15:09	amalloy	...
15:09	llasram	whaaaat?
15:09	hyPiRion	technomancy: TimMc would probably say "patches welcome"
15:09	coventry	amalloy: Thanks.
15:09	llasram	##(doc print-method)
15:09	lazybot	⇒ "; "
15:09	technomancy	lazybot: cool docstring bro
15:09	llasram	Nice
15:10	hyPiRion	Better to do source
15:11	hyPiRion	&(source print-method)
15:11	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: source in this context
15:11	callen	cute.
15:11	hyPiRion	at least that gave a better error message
15:11	TimMc	The Midje graph is pretty unreadable. http://i.imgur.com/KIrwPXo.jpg
15:12	technomancy	relevant: https://github.com/technomancy/bludgeon
15:12	hiredman	TimMc: well so is midje
15:12	TimMc	:-P
15:13	callen	lol
15:13	seangrov`	TimMc: Looks like this is the responsible fn: https://github.com/clojure/tools.namespace/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/namespace/file.clj#L25
15:13	TimMc	seangrov`: Actually, could you file an issue?
15:13	seangrov`	Wonder how worthwhile it is to differentiate between clj and cljs files
15:14	TimMc	I don't know if I'll ever do more work on this plugin, but it would be nice to collect ideas.
15:14	seangrov`	TimMc: Sure, was just poking around to see how nephila determined which files to map
15:14	callen	TimMc: ava.io.IOException: Cannot run program "dot": error=2, No such file or directory
15:14	hyPiRion	callen: install graphwiz man
15:14	callen	dammit.
15:14	hyPiRion	graphviz*
15:14	TimMc	sudo apt-get install graphviz or whatever
15:14	callen	hyPiRion: is graphwiz the graphviz for Wussians?
15:14	hyPiRion	Well, I think I didn't get the name for this
15:15	hyPiRion	I can't spell it.
15:15	upwardindex	Anyone using seesaw to make applets? I can't get anything to load (the java warning doesn't even popup)
15:20	ztellman	applets!
15:22	upwardindex	yes indeed!
15:23	upwardindex	localstorage is not enough for my clients
15:24	callen	hrm yes. indubitably.
15:24	callen	upwardindex: have you considered a database?
15:28	squidz	is anybody using schema with clojurescript? I can't seem to get this working (s/validate {"key" s/Number} {"key" 1}). if the keys are string it doesnt validate, if the key is a keyword it works fine though
15:29	callen	squidz: don't use strings? read the code?
15:29	callen	swizzle some pop rocks and cocaine?
15:29	upwardindex	callen: yes unfortunately not possible in the context...
15:30	callen	upwardindex: is someone holding a gun to your head?
15:30	squidz	callen: doesn't clojurescript automatically read json keys as strings?
15:31	callen	squidz: http://i.imgur.com/siOU3kj.gif
15:32	TimMc	callen: <_<
15:32	upwardindex	My problem with laoding applet is actually bug in firefox: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=907600
15:32	squidz	alright then, I guess somebody isn't in a helpful mood today
15:32	bbloom	callen: you're being a dick again
15:32	callen	bbloom: so are you.
15:32	squidz	it may be the mrHyde library that is automatically converting js object keys to strings in clojure maps
15:32	TimMc	squidz: What's the context, you're parsing JSON and then trying to validate it?
15:33	callen	squidz: clojure.walk.keywordize-keys
15:34	squidz	yes i'm reading in some json and it is being converted to maps like {"key" "somekey" "vals" [...]}, but I just realized it is the library that is automatically parsing it that way
15:35	squidz	I assumed that was how clojurescript parses js objects by default but I guess not.
15:36	callen	squidz: there's a patch-js-with-key-lookup in hyde that keywordizes.
15:36	callen	or should be, anyway.
15:38	gfredericks	squidz: that looks like the sort of pattern you'd use when serializing to json from a context where keys can be arbitrary data
15:38	gfredericks	e.g., clojure/edn
15:38	jkkramer	squidz: for schema, believe you can do {(s/required-key "key") "somekey"}
15:39	squidz	jkkramer: right that is exactly what I was looking for
15:40	squidz	I see at the bottom of schemes tests now
16:00	noprompt	there's way to much good stuff happening in the clojure world. it's distracting. :P
16:04	upwardindex	noprompt: indeed, i fell off my chair this morning when I saw the piplin presentation
16:04	unlink	I am able to create a working war file with `lein ring uberwar' and host it under tomcat; however `lein ring serve' exits without printing a message.
16:06	dnolen	noprompt: nice console lib
16:10	seangrov`	noprompt: I agree, looks very nice
16:13	learner_	hi. A newbie question here. At work I need to build an application that transforms XML. It should be able to accept Type A, B, C xmls and convert it to some internal format. then I can export it to other format. For example. If I get type A, I convert it to internal format and store it, which can later be converted to B or C. I am planning to use Java & some apache libraries that support XSLT. I am wondering if I can use Clojure fo
16:13	ToxicFrog	"can use Clojure fo"...it cuts off.
16:13	learner_	I am wondering if I can use Clojure for this. need your opinion. thanks
16:14	upwardindex	learner_: the answer is yes
16:15	learner_	upwardindex: Thanks. are there any clojure libraries for this kind of need?
16:15	rurumate_	How to generate clojurescript compiler from source, please?
16:16	upwardindex	learner_: depends on the format you want when you say "other format"
16:16	seangrov`	rurumate_: hrm?
16:17	manutter_	learner_: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1194044/clojure-xml-parsing
16:17	ToxicFrog	learner_: clojure has built in clojure.xml library (parsing
16:17	ToxicFrog	) and xml-seq (walking the DOM produced by parsing); there's also more powerful libs like data.xml
16:18	manutter_	and clojure has good Java interop, so anything that's available for Java can generally be used in clojure.
16:18	rurumate_	seangrov`: I know I should not ask that here ;)
16:19	seangrov`	rurumate_: Just a bit confused about what you're looking for
16:21	learner_	upwardindex: manutter_: ToxicFrog: Thanks for your answers. So instead of writing XSLT, I will be writing functions. Am I right? or will I need XSL also?
16:22	upwardindex	learner_: I don't know enough about your project to answer that question
16:22	rurumate_	seangrov`: oh, is it just a library? no standalone version?
16:23	seangrov`	rurumate_: If you're looking for the clojurescript compiler, it's here: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/
16:23	rurumate_	got that, I was just wondering how to build it
16:24	manutter_	learner_: is your internal/intermediate format supposed to be XML also, or are you ok with building a non-XML data structure
16:24	manutter_	If non-XML is ok for your internal data structure, you should be find just using clojure functions
16:24	seangrov`	rurumate_: script/bootstrap && script/build
16:24	rurumate_	seangrov`: there is no project.clj
16:25	learner_	manutter_: Internal format doesn't need to XML. it can be anything as long as it's structured
16:25	seangrov`	rurumate_: You can add a dummy one in
16:25	teemujin	hi im trying the tutorial on github - and ran into an issue.. is it ok to ask here?
16:25	seangrov`	Bronsa was on the hook to provide a dev one, I believe... :)
16:25	manutter_	learner_: Ok, so clojure functions should be fine.
16:25	seangrov`	anyone?
16:25	clojurebot	anyone is anybody
16:25	seangrov`	anybody?
16:25	clojurebot	anybody is anyone
16:25	manutter_	teemujin: ask away
16:26	learner_	manutter_: Thanks mate
16:26	seangrov`	Well, can't argue with that logic
16:26	teemujin	i got to where it shows you how to load docs — and got this
16:26	teemujin	my-stuff.core=> (user/clojuredocs pprint)
16:26	teemujin	Loading clojuredocs-client...
16:26	teemujin	Warning: Could not load the ClojureDocs client, so `clojuredocs` will be unavailable
16:26	teemujin	Details: #<FileNotFoundException java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate cd_client/core__init.class or cd_client/core.clj on classpath: >
16:27	teemujin	its from this github tutorial: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/stable/doc/TUTORIAL.md
16:27	learner_	teemujin: did you try? (doc pprint)
16:27	manutter_	teemujin: You can use gists or similar services and then just paste the URL, looks better than pasting into IRC
16:27	teemujin	ah ok sorry
16:27	Bronsa	seangrov` yeah, I put a patch on jira with a dev project.clj
16:27	teemujin	let me try (doc pprint)
16:27	manutter_	teemujin: np, let me check out that tutorial so I'm on the same page as you
16:29	teemujin	thanks - it seems to not be following what the tutorial seems to imply will happen at that point
16:30	manutter_	Trying to duplicate your results in my local REPL
16:32	technomancy	teemujin: looks like the tutorial is out of date
16:32	teemujin	ah just my luck :( well at least I don't feel as dumb now.
16:33	technomancy	cdoc was removed because of common dependency conflicts
16:33	teemujin	ok thank you for that info then - Ill continue past that part - hopefully the rest will be ok?
16:34	technomancy	yeah, I think so
16:34	manutter_	You can always just go to clojuredocs.org to get the docs, it just won't be within the repl
16:34	technomancy	hm; you should get a better error message too; that is kind a crappy
16:34	manutter_	I think clojure-docs.org is more up-to-date, though?
16:34	technomancy	teemujin: can you open a github issue reporting the problem?
16:35	teemujin	ah yes sure I will - ill do so right now
16:35	technomancy	thanks
16:35	teemujin	many thanks for all you guys helping
16:35	teemujin	cheers
16:35	technomancy	you can add back in clojuredocs manually too; I will make sure the next release mentions that
16:37	TimMc	clojurebot, forget anybody \|is\| anyone
16:37	clojurebot	I forgot that anybody is anyone
16:37	TimMc	clojurebot, forget anyone \|is\| anybody
16:37	clojurebot	I forgot that anyone is anybody
16:40	noprompt	dnolen: thanks for the hat tip.
17:01	upwardindex	I uberjar :aot :all and :omit true and somehow something is trying to read file data_readers.clj at run time?
17:01	upwardindex	https://www.refheap.com/18404
17:02	llasram	upwardindex: Yeah. data_readers.clj isn't actually a clojure source file -- it's an EDN data file
17:03	llasram	upwardindex: It needs to be available as a resource (i.e., on the classpath somehow) to work
17:04	upwardindex	llasram: is that recent? 1.5?
17:07	upwardindex	llasram: am I right to conclude that applets cannot simply be uberjars anymore?
17:10	egghead	applets, hissssss
17:12	mercwithamouth	hi, would anyone say haskell is much harder to get a grasp on than clojure?
17:13	Rubix	mercwithamouth: the answer is contextual. In the extreme.
17:13	nDuff	mercwithamouth: I wouldn't say that it's harder to learn. It's harder to use for real-world programs involving lots of side effects.
17:14	mercwithamouth	hmm, fair enough
17:14	nDuff	mercwithamouth: ...but before you start getting into the real-world side of it (heck, even after you do), haskell has a lot of conceptual beauty.
17:14	dobry-den	Anyone doing Clojure Cup?
17:15	mercwithamouth	nDuff: it's syntax looks rather scary though cleaner than clojure(at first)
17:15	mercwithamouth	or well it seems like a HUGE language...
17:15	technomancy	depends on how you feel about memorizing a lot of precedence rules
17:15	rurumate_	seangrov`: thanks (sorry I'm a bit slow)
17:16	something	is there any good way to make a vector into a queue? since conj and pop make it work like stack, but queue seems more difficult
17:16	amalloy	&(into clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY [1 2 3 4])
17:16	lazybot	⇒ #<PersistentQueue clojure.lang.PersistentQueue@e41ad382>
17:16	amalloy	doesn't print nicely, but works fine
17:17	something	then conj and pop work opposite?
17:17	amalloy	they act like queues
17:17	coventry	Is there a function which gives an empty version of whatever collection is passed? Like (cond (list? arg) () (vector? arg) [] etc.
17:17	amalloy	coventry: have you tried...empty
17:17	rasmusto	,(empty [])
17:17	clojurebot	[]
17:18	coventry	Thanks.
17:19	bbloom	amalloy: sadly: ##(empty 123)
17:19	lazybot	⇒ nil
17:19	bbloom	amalloy: i've run in to this problem several times ##(-> {:x 1} first empty)
17:19	lazybot	⇒ nil
17:22	dobry-den	amalloy: awesome. i never would have known about that.
17:22	bbloom	amalloy: makes it hard to write generic operations that also work on maps…. MapEntries are generally vectors, except when they aren't...
17:22	dobry-den	PersistentQueue
17:22	mikerod	I will com.stuartsierra/clojure.walk2 had a version out on clojars :)
17:23	xeqi	top
17:27	dobry-den	{:db/id #db/id[:db.part/db]
17:28	dobry-den	Whoops. The above is a key/val you'd use in Datomic. How can I understand what the syntax #db/id[...] is doing?
17:29	dobry-den	Not what it does in Datomic, but what that actually means in Clojure.
17:32	coventry	dobry-den: That is a reader literal. http://clojure.org/proposed-updates
17:34	dobry-den	coventry: awesome. thanks
17:42	coventry	I'm working on a tool which walks into a fully macroexpanded form and instruments it with tracing wrappers, sort of like emacs's edebug. Different special forms in clojure need different wrapping logic, and I've grouped the forms where I can use the same logic into maps and sets, which I then dispatch off in a big cond. It feels clumsy. I welcome suggestions about better ways to do it. https://www.refheap.com/18409
17:42	coventry	(BTW, I haven't written the handlers for the different logic, so that code is untested and probably contains errors. I'm just looking for suggestions about the overall organization at the moment.)
17:43	seangrov`	coventry: Sounds pretty interesting to use, but no suggestions
17:46	mimieux	Hi all
17:46	mimieux	!
17:47	mimieux	How would be the fn signature for a send to agent call?
17:49	technomancy	mimieux: should take the current value of the agent plus any other args you provide to send
17:50	mimieux	technomancy: Ok, I got it.
17:58	clj_newb_2345	i'm switching off of emacs live
17:58	clj_newb_2345	anyone have a suggestion for a tutorial on manually settting up a powerful emacs / clojure setup?
17:58	clj_newb_2345	something like "emacs/clojure" from scratch in the spirit of "linux from scratch"
17:58	clj_newb_2345	a tutorial that walsk me through what to isntall, why I wnat to use it, and how to use it
17:58	technomancy	clj_newb_2345: start here: https://github.com/technomancy/better-defaults
17:59	clj_newb_2345	that's it?
18:00	technomancy	I've been meaning to write such a guide about recommended packages but haven't gotten much done yet
18:00	clj_newb_2345	I was thikning more alonnt the liens of nrepl, paredit, git stuff, ...
18:00	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/emacs-starter-kit/blob/v3/README.markdown
18:01	clj_newb_2345	it doesn't do anything besides lnk to better-defaults
18:01	clj_newb_2345	are you resting on your laurels from writing lein these days? :-)
18:01	technomancy	right; see the big "TODO"? =)
18:01	technomancy	that's where it would go
18:02	technomancy	visualize some nicely-typeset, conversational prose walking you through which packages you should care about and why
18:02	technomancy	that's the starter kit v3; currently a work in progress
18:03	rasmusto	clj_newb_2345: magit, nrepl.el, paredit.el?
18:03	clj_newb_2345	we should do this
18:03	clj_newb_2345	we should force every contributor to clojure.core / clojure.contrib to lsit out which emacs packages they use
18:03	clj_newb_2345	that'd be enough for me
18:03	technomancy	I would add smex, idle-highlight, find-file-in-project, ido-hacks, elisp-slime-nav
18:05	technomancy	also http://p.hagelb.org/nrepl-words.el.html obviously
18:05	egghead	all the nice ido stuff disappear when I left starter-kit for better-defaults
18:06	technomancy	really don't like the default nrepl-words-of-inspiration
18:06	egghead	lol
18:07	clj_newb_2345	random curiosity
18:07	clj_newb_2345	has the clojure data structures by any chance ported to emacs?
18:08	technomancy	clj_newb_2345: emacs lisp doesn't have the necessary means of abstraction to create new data structures
18:09	clj_newb_2345	technomancy: what?
18:09	clj_newb_2345	emacs lisp is a lisp
18:09	clj_newb_2345	lisps are powerful
18:09	clj_newb_2345	powerful things can create new data structures
18:09	clj_newb_2345	wtf
18:10	dnolen	technomancy: huh really, I see it has a vector type
18:10	technomancy	clj_newb_2345: emacs lisp is designed around the notion that mutable cons cells should be good enough for anyone
18:10	technomancy	dnolen: sure, it ships with vectors out of th ebox
18:10	technomancy	but no one uses them; they are terrible
18:11	technomancy	they implicitly quote their contents, and none of the list-centric existing functionality works on them
18:11	technomancy	and anyway, you can't define new data structures beyond structs; nothing that can be anything close to first-class
18:12	hiredman	quoted mutable lists are lots of fun
18:12	callen	technomancy: you could do it.
18:12	callen	it just wouldn't be fun.
18:12	dnolen	technomancy: oof implicit quoting, killer
18:12	technomancy	right
18:12	technomancy	callen: even if you had immutable lists, you couldn't get immutable strings
18:13	technomancy	(at least without sacrificing interop)
18:13	technomancy	it is a tale of heartache and woe
18:13	callen	yeah I'm not expecting interop
18:14	callen	I'm talking about a clj-universe-unto-itself in elisp.
18:14	callen	built from the decaying corpses of bindat trees.
18:14	technomancy	http://technomancy.us/159
18:14	callen	so yeah, it's doable, but you shouldn't do it.
18:15	technomancy	right; it would be more like Kawa than Clojure
18:15	callen	more or less.
18:15	callen	but I'm not bothered that much by elisp, so I wouldn't do it.
18:17	technomancy	equality in elisp/cl is so gross =\
18:17	callen	core.async in Emacs would be fucking cool though :)
18:17	technomancy	I'd take referential transparency over homoiconicity any day
18:17	callen	probably the strongest argument I know of for editors based on JS like LightTable.
18:17	callen	technomancy: I'm headed in that direction, but I originally showed up to this party for the Lisp, not the FP.
18:18	technomancy	I think it means I'm getting old
18:18	callen	I do FP as a means to an end (preserving my sanity)
18:18	technomancy	valuing correctness over flexibility
18:18	callen	I like to think of principled, well designed flexibility as a means to producing correct-ness.
18:18	callen	I think I'm in line with hickey on that.
18:19	callen	I think part of the problem with correct-ness is that all, all programs will forever and always be under-specified by their very nature - and should be. that's part of what makes producing software economical. You have to pick your battles.
18:20	callen	I'm not hostile to referential transparency or type-assisted programming by any means, I just refuse to be wholly subservient to either.
18:23	technomancy	sure; I just mean if I had to pic kone
18:27	callen	technomancy: mind a query?
18:27	callen	I won't be offended if you don't want me to bug you.
18:27	technomancy	sure
18:46	noprompt	lein cljsbuild example <-- i want this.
18:46	CaptainLex	I mispronounced "doseq' when I read it the first time
18:46	rasmusto	CaptainLex: did you pronounce it like the beer?
18:46	CaptainLex	I thought "I don't always work with side effects, but when I do - I use doseq"
18:47	rasmusto	CaptainLex: :)
18:47	CaptainLex	rasmusto: You guessed it!
18:47	dnolen	noprompt: something more thnan this? http://github.com/swannodette/hs-async/blob/master/project.clj
18:47	s4muel	Hahahaha.
18:47	noprompt	or rather `lein cljsbuild sample`
18:47	noprompt	dnolen: i want to see it on the cli though
18:47	dnolen	oh right, just to remember the options?
18:48	noprompt	dnolen: yeah. some of the more esoteric options i forget and either have to look it up or dig through my projects.
18:57	noprompt	including lein <command> sample seems like it would be a good staple for plugins with several options
18:58	noprompt	having to revisit the READMEs or the source is a bit of a drag sometimes :/
18:58	MisterSinister	Speaking of Leiningen - how do I include local jars in a Leiningen project (i.e. without having them be in some repository online)?
18:59	noprompt	guess i'll could always roll up my sleeves and pitch in :)
19:00	seancorfield	core.async has found its way into our code base :)
19:00	MisterSinister	I've tried reading the various online stuff about local jars and Leiningen, and none of them make much sense to me
19:02	technomancy	MisterSinister: probably because the question doesn't really make sense
19:02	technomancy	why are you trying to avoid repositories?
19:03	MisterSinister	technomancy: So if I have a jar of Clojure utilities that only I ever use, I still have to reposit it somewhere before Leiningen can automatically manage it?
19:04	technomancy	sure
19:04	dissipate__	what's the best book for learning in depth about macros? joy of clojure?
19:04	MisterSinister	OK then.
19:04	technomancy	is `lein deploy clojars` too much work?
19:04	MisterSinister	technomancy: I get your point.
19:04	CaptainLex	dissipate_: I too wonder about this!
19:05	MisterSinister	Yeah - I'd like a resource on macros too, since I suck at them.
19:07	dissipate__	hmm, the current 'joy of clojure' book only looks like it has about 20 pages on macros
19:07	MisterSinister	dissipate_: The others aren't much better.
19:08	dissipate__	that sucks.
19:08	MisterSinister	The only macro-focused book I know of is Paul Graham's 'On Lisp', but that's targeted at CL, not Clojure.
19:08	dissipate__	super lame
19:08	MisterSinister	It's got some good tips and ideas, but having to convert across the languages is annoying as fuck.
19:08	MisterSinister	Mostly because I really dislike CL syntax.
19:09	CaptainLex	MisterSinister: It's good for theory, though, right?
19:09	llasram	When I started using Clojure I was pretty excited about the potential of macros. In practice, you don't use them very often, and there really isn't anything "hard" about how you do use them
19:09	CaptainLex	I don't really understand the full theoretical power of macros
19:09	dissipate__	MisterSinister: but clojure smells of the 'cube farm'
19:09	MisterSinister	CaptainLex: I guess so, but I'm not the best person to ask, honestly.
19:09	MisterSinister	dissipate_: Explain?
19:09	llasram	They're built-in code-generation in the same language you're writing in in the first place
19:10	dissipate__	MisterSinister: see this screed on clojure: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42
19:10	llasram	Which is amazing, but also not that difficult to get a handle on if you've gone code-generation anywhere else
19:11	dissipate__	"Clojure is the False Lisp, which Reeketh of the Cube Farm. A Lisp unworthy of the name; one which encourages users to pepper their code with calls to opaque routines having no underlying Lispiness. A Lisp which barfs Java stack traces. It promotes – no, mandates - the use of undigestable foreign matter in Lisp code: primitives on which you cannot pop the hood to reveal intelligible innards."
19:11	llasram	So hilarious
19:11	MisterSinister	dissipate_: I think that's a little extreme.
19:11	MisterSinister	I guess for me, this is less of an issue, given that the programming I have to do is mostly for academic purposes.
19:11	nDuff	The purists have a point. But that doesn't mean they can actually get anything done in their pure little world.
19:11	arrdem	MisterSinister: it's comming from the loper-os guy. what did you expect?
19:12	MisterSinister	Which means I don't have to use Java for... pretty much anything.
19:12	CaptainLex	Yeah, I originally got into Clojure so I could use a specific Java library
19:12	CaptainLex	I'd probably be focusing more on Scheme if outside libraries weren't a concern :P
19:13	dissipate__	MisterSinister: he does have a point, but it is exaggerated.
19:13	CaptainLex	(Though I also really like Clojure's focus on immutability, which I think is missed too often by LISPs)
19:13	MisterSinister	CaptainLex: I quite like the immutability as well. It makes it a hell of a lot easier to write programs for hacks like me. :P
19:13	arrdem	nDuff: yeah were one too bootstrap a simple bytecode interpreter capable of hosting Clojure from clojure onto raw metal, you may have a "pure" system but that doesn't make it useful in the slightest.
19:14	dissipate__	MisterSinister: what about the Java stack traces?
19:14	noprompt	oh that article and the comment thread are a riot.
19:14	noprompt	some gems in there.
19:14	MisterSinister	dissipate_: My programs don't exceed 300 SLoC of Clojure in most cases.
19:14	MisterSinister	OK, I get an ugly stacktrace.
19:14	dissipate__	noprompt: i think the post is a riot. but why the comments?
19:14	MisterSinister	It's not like it's gonna matter much in a program of that size.
19:15	noprompt	dissipate_: quotes like "Fine… I will dine on chocolate ice cream while you eat “filtered” liquid shit."
19:15	dissipate__	hehehe
19:16	MisterSinister	Plus, if I don't use mutable state (referentially-transparent functions and so on), I can just test each bit individually and incrementally.
19:16	noprompt	"My position is that lying is wrong, and that a turd is still a turd even when you call it sausage and eat with relish. "
19:16	dissipate__	noprompt: i didn't see any linkage to this guy's 'beautiful' common lisp code
19:16	MisterSinister	dissipate_: Sorry, CL syntax is pretty hideous.
19:16	MisterSinister	I know that car and cdr have historical origins.
19:16	MisterSinister	But honestly?
19:16	noprompt	dissipate_: he's probably too busy dining on his ice cream to write any software.
19:16	CaptainLex	CL is undeserving of being the default LISP :P
19:16	MisterSinister	CaptainLex: I think it got that title by default.
19:16	technomancy	CaptainLex: MACLisp 4 lyfe
19:17	dissipate__	noprompt: he's a big baller common lisp shot caller. everyone else is in a 'cube farm'
19:18	CaptainLex	technomancy: I think I'd be rep Scheme myself, except all the SLoC of LISP I've written in the past six months have been in clj or cljs
19:18	CaptainLex	Those two languages are so useful :(
19:18	CaptainLex	(If I were into systems, it'd be Guile, but seriously, who does that?)
19:18	technomancy	http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/misc/lisp-programmers.jpg
19:19	MisterSinister	So.... we're the Borg?
19:19	MisterSinister	I take that as a compliment. :D
19:19	technomancy	related: http://www.motivateusnot.com/resize.php?name=LzM3OC9DYXB0YWluLUphbWVzLVQuLUtpcmstSSdtLXNvcnJ5LC1JLWNhbid0LWhlYXIteW91LW92ZXItdGhlLXNvdW5kLW9mLWhvdy1hd2Vzb21lLUktYW0uanBn&w=550&h=9999&extension=.jpg
19:19	CaptainLex	Hahaha Scheme is Spock! :O
19:19	CaptainLex	:D*
19:19	noprompt	technomancy: that's halurious. :P
19:20	noprompt	the ruby one cracks me up.
19:20	noprompt	smalltalk is bill nye the science guy. can it get any funnier?
19:20	CaptainLex	Hahahaha @ Javascript
19:21	CaptainLex	I have never even heard of Arc, Forth, or Factor
19:21	technomancy	arc should have been wesley crusher
19:21	llasram	Total missed opportunity
19:21	technomancy	other than that it is perfect
19:21	dissipate__	CaptainLex: Arc is Paul Graham's experimental LISP langauge
19:22	MisterSinister	The ASP.Net one amuses me the most.
19:22	technomancy	racket can be zachary quinto's spock
19:25	noprompt	dissipate_: "Right now I have very little working code. " -- loper-os
19:25	noprompt	he goes on to say " This is because I have spent much of my time so far developing an understanding of the Lisp Machine systems which inspired Loper, and of the X86-64 architecture – the only consumer-market CPU sufficiently capable for my purposes."
19:27	noprompt	a commenter says "Sounds like you might be kind of a douche. Ever thought about redesigning the car? Because driving with my feet always made more sense that these hands on a clumsy wheel."
19:27	noprompt	that about sums it up.
19:30	rasmusto	haha, just got to the icecream comment
19:31	MisterSinister	Ice-cream is tasty. That was a derp comment. :P
19:32	CaptainLex	I actually find myself on loper-os's side, philosophically
19:32	CaptainLex	But in the short-term, I'm a turncoat :P
19:32	MisterSinister	I just consider it too extreme a position. I get a mental image of Angry German Kid while I read that.
19:32	MisterSinister	Yelling 'STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE!'
19:32	dissipate__	CaptainLex: how are you on his side philosophically? he's butt hurt that common lisp got pushed aside
19:32	MisterSinister	(In German)
19:33	CaptainLex	dissipate_ MisterSinister: I also think it's an extreme position, but I'm all about compromise in situations like this.
19:34	CaptainLex	I would like to have a Lisp-All-the-Way-Down, but I'd also like to have widespread adoption of LISP and functional design patterns
19:34	MisterSinister	CaptainLex: Does that article have much of a compromisory tone?
19:34	CaptainLex	It doesn't matter to me what order they come in
19:34	MisterSinister	'Compromise' requires both sides to be OK with giving a little. This guy isn't giving a millimeter.
19:34	CaptainLex	No, I know. I mean
19:34	CaptainLex	I agree with him, but I am compromising
19:35	CaptainLex	In 50 or 100 years, I'd be on his side. If Clojure took the world by storm and enterprise became functional, I'd start telling them to implement it all in pure LISP from the beginning
19:35	hiredman	use belt cpus
19:35	dissipate__	CaptainLex: enterprise is broken and seems like it always will be no matter what language enterprise is using
19:35	MisterSinister	The thing is, in 50 or 100 years, we might well have strong AIs to do all our programming for us, and all we'd need is a specification language, making this whole thing meaningless.
19:36	MisterSinister	Here and now is what counts.
19:36	dissipate__	CaptainLex: don't expect any language to fix enterprise, period
19:36	MisterSinister	And also, I'm not in any way selfish to say that I evaluate a language based on how much it serves my needs.
19:36	MisterSinister	Clojure serves my needs. Therefore I like it and use it.
19:36	dissipate__	CaptainLex: if enterprise adopted clojure, they would just crank out bad clojure code
19:36	CaptainLex	Haha I don't mean functional like it works, I mean functional like using FPLs :p
19:37	dissipate__	CaptainLex: how would FP fix enterprise, at all?
19:38	CaptainLex	dissipate_: It'd make my skillset more marketable xP
19:38	Raynes	I agree with dissipate__ -- FP doesn't make shitty coders less shitty.
19:38	MisterSinister	Raynes: I would argue it makes shitty coders shittier.
19:38	dissipate__	CaptainLex: yeah, you might make more money, but get ready to deal with a bunch of Java heads who have 0 concept of craftsmanship.
19:38	MisterSinister	Since FP actually requires more thinking.
19:39	Raynes	MisterSinister: I would disagree because I think the premise is untrue.
19:39	MisterSinister	Raynes: Could you explain that a bit more?
19:39	CaptainLex	MisterSinister: Sadly, you're probably correct. I'd ideally hope that it would force everyone think more, but probably not
19:39	Raynes	FP doesn't require more thinking. Haskell requires more thinking. You can mostly take a dump in a .clj file and have it work just fine.
19:40	dissipate__	CaptainLex: no, they wouldn't think more. if they thought more, their code would already be a lot better.
19:40	MisterSinister	Raynes: In that case, we agree.
19:40	dissipate__	CaptainLex: perhaps Haskell is your savior. but i don't see that being adopted by enterprise anytime soon
19:40	noprompt	how does one become less "shitty" at anything?
19:41	CaptainLex	dissipate_: Perhaps so. I've often thought it was the most enterprise-ready FPL, though
19:41	Brand0	practice
19:41	MisterSinister	noprompt: Practice? Thinking? Work?
19:41	dissipate__	noprompt: acknowledge you are doing stuff badly and correct your actions
19:41	MisterSinister	dissipate_ is right - knowing you suck is the first step in improvement.
19:41	sdegutis	Raynes: which I often do.
19:41	rigger	choosing good peers
19:41	MisterSinister	rigger: And mentors.
19:41	dissipate__	CaptainLex: but enterprise has a huge culture problem, and that is namely rewarding programmers who dump out shit code
19:41	noprompt	i guess that's probably it then.
19:42	noprompt	i always feel like i'm "shitty" programmer.
19:42	rigger	and actually caring about improving your skill set
19:42	noprompt	so i'm always practicing.
19:42	rasmusto	"sharpening the saw"
19:42	dissipate__	CaptainLex: you can make six figures cranking out shit code
19:42	noprompt	and constantly banging out shitty code.
19:42	dissipate__	that's a culture problem
19:42	dissipate__	that will not be fixed by any programming language
19:42	CaptainLex	dissipate_: Definitely true. But I'm young and idealistic! I wanna change the woooooorld!
19:42	MisterSinister	noprompt: I always feel like I'm shitty in everything I do. Funnily enough, this has been my most productive year. :P
19:43	MisterSinister	CaptainLex: I guess some of us have been disabused of that notion. :P
19:43	noprompt	MisterSinister: yes, it's always interesting when you look back and see how much you've accomplished.
19:43	dissipate__	CaptainLex: find a shop where people care about their craft. that's what i recommend.
19:43	nDuff	"enterprise", eh.
19:43	MisterSinister	noprompt: I prefer to look forward. Right now, my supervisor is pushing me to publish a paper in SToC.
19:43	MisterSinister	Which is crazy-hard.
19:44	Raynes	noprompt: You're not a shitty programmer.
19:44	noprompt	i can atest to the hypothesis that deliberate practice and interest is key to becoming less "shitty".
19:45	rasmusto	its friday, isn't it
19:45	MisterSinister	Saturday for me.
19:45	rigger	i work at a company that has 1M (yes one million) lines of csh as a core of an application
19:46	noprompt	i've been teaching an introductory javascript class and i really stress the importance between practicing and becoming a better programmer.
19:46	MisterSinister	noprompt: Where do you teach?
19:46	hiredman	rigger: I smell the next clojurescript compiler target
19:46	rigger	and the guy who made that decision is still working for the company :\|
19:46	noprompt	MisterSinister: it's just a six week intro class through one of the tech companies here in fresno.
19:46	dissipate__	noprompt: why aren't you teaching clojurescript? :P
19:46	rasmusto	cljs -> tcsh -> csh
19:47	arrdem	cljs -> c?
19:47	noprompt	dissipate_: i'm teaching beginners
19:47	MisterSinister	noprompt: Ah, I see. I figure pretty much everyone here is from the States.
19:47	noprompt	naturally i'm taking the functional route.
19:47	dissipate__	clojurescript isn't for beginners?
19:47	noprompt	dissipate_: :P
19:48	noprompt	there seems to be a consensus that if you teach functional programming before object oriented it's easier for the student to understand.
19:48	rigger	i believe that to be a fair statement
19:48	noprompt	interestingly enough it seems to be true.
19:48	MisterSinister	noprompt: I only wish my university would let me show this.
19:48	rigger	i learned lisp/scheme before c++ then java
19:48	MisterSinister	Since around here, they have OO on the brain so hard, they might as well be a cult.
19:48	dissipate__	yeah, i think FP should be taught, but OO is absolutely entrenched
19:49	MisterSinister	There is actually a non-trivial subset of the teaching staff at the university who honestly believe that Object Oriented Design (no programming, just the theory) should be a first-year class.
19:49	MisterSinister	Before any programming gets taught.
19:49	MisterSinister	That's how bad it is.
19:49	wkelly	get some UML up in there!
19:49	dissipate__	oh hell no
19:49	dissipate__	UML?? oh hell no
19:49	MisterSinister	wkelly: Kill me now.
19:49	arrdem	MisterSinister: ah here at UTAustin that _was_ a first year class
19:50	wkelly	haha
19:50	noprompt	dissipate_: i definitely had an option and took advantage of the situation to do the "right" thing.
19:50	MisterSinister	arrdem: My sympathies.
19:50	arrdem	MisterSinister: I survived and learned clojure :D
19:50	dissipate__	noprompt: how are you doing the right thing?
19:50	MisterSinister	arrdem: I did too. I just wish other people could take a less painful pathway.
19:50	arrdem	MisterSinister: I'm not convinced it was actually a bad thing... there are some domains for which OO does make sense
19:50	noprompt	dissipate_: by the quotes i meant what i think is right.
19:51	arrdem	MisterSinister: in fact I'm trying to draw an OO model for my next clojure app as I type
19:51	noprompt	dissipate_: and that is teaching the students to learn how to program in a functional style with JavaScript.
19:51	MisterSinister	arrdem: Teaching it as the One True Model of programming and saying it's the best thing since sliced bread?
19:51	arrdem	MisterSinister: yeah that's a load of ****
19:51	MisterSinister	I will (grudgingly) accept that OO is useful sometimes.
19:51	MisterSinister	But this is definitely not the way it gets taught at my uni.
19:51	noprompt	MisterSinister: i don't dis OO in class and don't deny it's usefulness.
19:51	CaptainLex	My University used to have its intro class for majors taught in Scheme (such as when I was a freshman)
19:52	MisterSinister	noprompt: I'm a Master's student. I'm done with classes. :P
19:52	CaptainLex	They just approved a plan to change it to Python, then Java, THEN Scheme
19:52	arrdem	MisterSinister: I'm jelly
19:52	MisterSinister	arrdem: Why would you be jelly? You wanna be an algorithm researcher?
19:52	noprompt	MisterSinister: however, being skilled with functional programming in JS is far more useful than OO.
19:52	dissipate__	noprompt: fair enough
19:52	arrdem	MisterSinister: the grad student part, not the research :P
19:53	MisterSinister	noprompt: You don't need to convince me. I dislike OO. :P
19:53	hyPiRion	well gurr. Polymorphism is good, not sure what classes are.
19:53	MisterSinister	arrdem: It's a lotta work, because my supervisor is a slavedriver.
19:54	dissipate__	isn't it funny that in the past decade OO best practices have essentially gutted inheritance?
19:54	arrdem	hyPiRion: classes are an excuse to complect datastructures and fns
19:54	noprompt	hyPiRion: completely agree.
19:54	MisterSinister	dissipate_: Yeah, I read 'Operator new considered harmful' too. :P
19:55	dissipate__	arrdem: complect data structures??
19:55	lazybot	dissipate__: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?
19:55	hyPiRion	arrdem: I'd rather say that it complects state and value, although I get your point.
19:55	noprompt	it's funny. as bad as javascript could be it could be a lot worse.
19:56	dissipate__	ah, i see
19:56	dissipate__	hyPiRion: objects are used to hide data, essentially
19:57	hyPiRion	Well, the main issues with js is weak typing, scoping rules and namespace issues, isn't that it?
19:57	dissipate__	hyPiRion: don't forget objects and mutable state
19:57	CaptainLex	dissipate_: To be fair, that's not a bug, that's a feature
19:57	CaptainLex	The earlier things are pretty universally condemned
19:58	hyPiRion	Well, that could be dealt with. It's harder to change scoping rules and namespacing
19:58	hyPiRion	yeah, what CaptainLex said
19:58	noprompt	hyPiRion: yes there are those issues. but for beginners just trying to get started you can impress upon them some good practices w/o getting too deep.
19:58	technomancy	hyPiRion: equality too
19:59	MisterSinister	Speaking of equality: Why does CL have like, four equality tests?
20:00	hyPiRion	three
20:00	noprompt	Raynes: so are you like a core elixir team member now or something? ;)
20:00	ThatOneGuy	because CLOS
20:00	ThatOneGuy	:P jk I have no idea
20:00	hyPiRion	eq, eql, equal
20:00	MisterSinister	Isn't there a string equal thing or something as well?
20:01	hyPiRion	that's equal
20:01	CaptainLex	Scheme has some of them too
20:01	CaptainLex	One is pointers-equals, one is value
20:01	arrdem	when does the clojure challenge start?
20:01	CaptainLex	For performance reasons
20:01	noprompt	damn this mrhyde lib is kinda cool
20:01	hyPiRion	oh right, string equal is kind of performancey
20:01	arrdem	s/challenge/cup/
20:01	dfuenzalida	you also have (.equals "foo" "bar") with Java interop
20:02	technomancy	MisterSinister: pretty sure there's more than four actually
20:02	technomancy	equalp
20:02	MisterSinister	technomancy: Maybe. CL is a huge language and I don't even pretend to know most of it.
20:02	technomancy	it's insane
20:02	technomancy	(equality specifically)
20:02	technomancy	clojurebot: egal?
20:02	clojurebot	egal is http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ObjectIdentity.html
20:02	technomancy	MisterSinister: ^ great coverage of why it's necessary in CL and why that's a horrible thing
20:02	Brand0	Dang, I cannot get clojure.contrib to load
20:03	MisterSinister	I think I might enter the ClojureCup next year. Not this year - too busy.
20:03	arrdem	Brand0: first of ohai, second off contrib is dead
20:03	Brand0	arrdem, 2 the rescue
20:03	hiredman	because there is no such thing
20:03	technomancy	eq, eql, equal, equalp, =, plus then string=, char=, etc
20:04	MisterSinister	Eeeek.
20:04	MisterSinister	Wow.
20:04	hyPiRion	oh right, equalp
20:04	MisterSinister	That's worse than I thought.
20:05	MisterSinister	One thing I actually like about Clojure - the damn language is easy to look up.
20:05	MisterSinister	Looking up stuff about CL is painful.
20:05	arrdem	MisterSinister: oh you want HyperDoc? good luck finding one...
20:06	MisterSinister	arrdem: I've tried reading HyperDoc. It's not fun.
20:06	MisterSinister	The first Lisp I tried was CL.
20:06	MisterSinister	Yeah.... Clojure was much easier.
20:07	arrdem	MisterSinister: yeah the clojure-doc, clojuredocs and github.com/clojure documentation may be confising but at least you can always (doc) or find the docs with a single google search
20:07	MisterSinister	arrdem: I actually found all of those things to be really easy to work with.
20:07	MisterSinister	Also, why is ClojureDocs stuck at Clojure 1.3?
20:07	arrdem	MisterSinister: it got abandoned I think
20:07	MisterSinister	Awwwwwwwwww.
20:07	MisterSinister	That sucks.
20:08	noprompt	,e,s
20:08	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: e in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
20:08	MisterSinister	The examples of use on there are so useful.
20:08	arrdem	MisterSinister: someone else here has an examples site...
20:08	arrdem	MisterSinister: that's new shiny and active
20:08	MisterSinister	arrdem: Link please?
20:08	arrdem	MisterSinister: trying to remember...
20:09	arrdem	MisterSinister: brain cache fault, incurring google latency..
20:09	brainproxy	I suggested that Clojure's API be adapted to DevDocs
20:09	MisterSinister	Happens to all of us.
20:09	brainproxy	the maintainer said he would at least think about it :)
20:10	arrdem	noprompt: false. my new buisness cards look like a `whois`
20:10	MisterSinister	So, what do you guys all do? Are you all software-making folks?
20:10	noprompt	arrdem: that's so awesome.
20:10	ThatOneGuy	oui
20:10	brainproxy	if you're doing webdev and not using DevDocs, it's the bomb, give it a go: http://devdocs.io/
20:11	CaptainLex	I'm a student, and will be a software-making folk when the time comes
20:11	callen	brainproxy: no clojure? gerd dermmert.
20:11	brainproxy	callen: i asked for it
20:11	arrdem	CaptainLex: I'm still a college undergrad but aspire to the `hacker` and `lisper` mixins. `sofware-maker` seems inevitable.
20:12	brainproxy	callen: you can voice your support for clojure here: https://trello.com/c/PVnfdeaN/26-suggest-new-docs-here
20:12	CaptainLex	arrdem: My long term goal is indie game dev, but until then I'll be a contractor
20:12	callen	brainproxy: I'd rather not ask, and just use dash.
20:12	callen	brainproxy: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/dash-docs-snippets/id458034879?mt=12 you can upload your own docs, you don't have to beg some dude with a website.
20:13	noprompt	brainproxy: that's pretty cool.
20:13	MisterSinister	arrdem and CaptainLex: Nice. I got the impression everyone here was a professional already. :P
20:13	brainproxy	callen: cool, wasn't aware of dash
20:14	noprompt	callen: has that app gotten better? it used to be kinda "balls" to use a "modern" adjective.
20:14	brainproxy	callen: hopefully at some point the maintainer will turn it into a community effort, where new docs can be submitted by pull request, you can fork and run your own devdocs, etc.
20:14	arrdem	MisterSinister: nah. hyPiRion and a bunch of other people are academic(ish) too but for the most part it's library maintainers, the honorable technomancy and fulltime clj-users
20:14	noprompt	fuck it. i give up. i'm not getting anything done today.
20:14	CaptainLex	MisterSinister: I'm a "professional" in some senses, but basically not :P
20:14	arrdem	noprompt: needs more redbull. I've had to much so IRC.
20:15	MisterSinister	arrdem: Ah, I see.
20:15	dobry-den	Damn, I love Schema
20:15	MisterSinister	Also, lol at 'the honourable technomancy'.
20:15	arrdem	$karma leiningen
20:15	lazybot	leiningen has karma 2.
20:15	hyPiRion	I'm a professional Swearjure programmer, but that's about it.
20:15	MisterSinister	Swearjure?
20:15	clojurebot	Swearjure is http://hypirion.com/swearjure
20:16	MisterSinister	Lol.
20:16	hyPiRion	~quicksort
20:16	clojurebot	quicksort is https://www.refheap.com/paste/284a0552a6b69c6037faa2db5
20:17	arrdem	hyPiRion: I'm still in awe of how far you've gotten that.
20:17	MisterSinister	This feels like reading Brainfuck.
20:17	CaptainLex	hyPiRion: Hahahaha that's awesome
20:18	callen	noprompt: it's usable. I like it.
20:18	CaptainLex	I've always wanted an esolang that wasn't just more stack manipulation nonsense
20:19	hyPiRion	Yeah, this is splice unquoting abuse and SKI calculus hacks and whatnot
20:20	MisterSinister	hyPiRion: Now write eval in Swearjure. :P
20:21	hyPiRion	Hrm. It's possible to write eval in Swearjure for Swearjure code, but not sure you can further than that
20:21	MisterSinister	Also, what can we do with the clojurebot?
20:22	hyPiRion	,((-> [!] #([!](+))) (*))
20:22	clojurebot	1
20:23	MisterSinister	So I can feed it s-expressions starting with a comma, and it'll eval them?
20:23	hyPiRion	yea
20:23	hyPiRion	h
20:23	MisterSinister	,(+ 1 2)
20:23	clojurebot	3
20:23	MisterSinister	Whee.
20:23	MisterSinister	It's like a talking REPL.
20:23	dissipate__	can i feed it sex expressions?
20:23	llasram	There's also lazybot!
20:24	llasram	&(println "hi")
20:24	lazybot	⇒ hi nil
20:24	MisterSinister	dissipate_: Try it.
20:24	llasram	And also ##(println "hi")
20:24	lazybot	⇒ hi nil
20:24	MisterSinister	Just make sure you use prefix notation. :P
20:24	dissipate__	,8====D
20:24	clojurebot	#<NumberFormatException java.lang.NumberFormatException: Invalid number: 8====D>
20:24	MisterSinister	What's the difference between the bots?
20:24	llasram	They're entirely different bots :-)
20:24	TEttinger	MisterSinister, yes
20:24	TEttinger	,(range 1 10)
20:24	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5 ...)
20:24	TEttinger	&(range 1 10)
20:24	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)
20:24	dissipate__	,(fib 5)
20:24	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: fib in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
20:26	MisterSinister	I'm guessing I shouldn't feed the bot infinitely-recursive things?
20:26	technomancy	try it and see
20:26	MisterSinister	Or ask it to realize an infinite seq? :P
20:27	MisterSinister	,(doc iterate)
20:27	clojurebot	"([f x]); Returns a lazy sequence of x, (f x), (f (f x)) etc. f must be free of side-effects"
20:27	technomancy	unless you are more devious than Raynes and xeqi you can't hurt it
20:27	MisterSinister	,(iterate inc 0)
20:27	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
20:27	MisterSinister	I doubt I'm more devious.
20:27	MisterSinister	I was just curious.
20:27	rasmusto	&(iterate inc 0)
20:27	lazybot	java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space
20:27	MisterSinister	So now I know the difference between the bots.
20:30	Raynes	xeqi is the only one who can break lazybot.
20:31	MisterSinister	I'll take your guys' word for it.
20:32	hyPiRion	Raynes: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2012-12-17.html#22:30
20:33	hyPiRion	Not sure if it's breakage, but still proud of that one
20:33	MisterSinister	Wow....
20:33	MisterSinister	I am such a programming noob.
20:36	CaptainLex	hyPiRion: You are my hero. That's incredible!
20:36	ThatOneGuy	we all are. no one knows everything
20:37	MisterSinister	Yeah, that is pretty incredible.
20:37	Raynes	hyPiRion: amalloy thinks that this was the final straw that made us ignore clojurebot in lazybot.
20:37	Raynes	hyPiRion: Good work.
20:37	hyPiRion	Raynes: yeah, I know
20:38	MisterSinister	,((fn [x] (list x (list (quote quote) x))) (quote (fn [x] (list x (list (quote quote) x)))))
20:38	clojurebot	((fn [x] (list x (list (quote quote) x))) (quote (fn [x] (list x (list (quote quote) x)))))
20:38	hyPiRion	CaptainLex: haha. Well, I've mostly done very... unorthodox things with Clojure. I haven't made anything extremely useful
20:38	Raynes	hyPiRion: You've contributed quite a bit to leiningen. You're doing fine
20:39	llasram	Indeed!
20:39	ztellman	unorthodox things are the best things
20:39	llasram	(inc hyPiRion)
20:39	lazybot	⇒ 23
20:39	CaptainLex	You know what would be useful? If you could make the bots output things to each other indefinitely
20:39	Raynes	(inc hyPiRion)
20:39	lazybot	⇒ 24
20:39	Raynes	CaptainLex: That's exactly what hyPiRion did which we made impossible afterwards.
20:39	MisterSinister	(inc hyPiRion)
20:39	lazybot	⇒ 25
20:39	CaptainLex	Hahahaa :(
20:40	MisterSinister	Alrighty, I think I better get some actual work done. Thanks all, it's been fun.
20:40	hyPiRion	Oh, you guys
20:41	CaptainLex	I better take a break too! Food's on, plus I oughtta finish the enlive business
20:41	CaptainLex	I think IRC is wonderful I love having communities around :)
20:41	technomancy	it is the best.
20:42	CaptainLex	Oopsy put a delimiter in there somewhere
20:42	technomancy	it's ok, commas are whitespace
20:42	CaptainLex	(partition 5 "I think IRC is wonderful I love having communities around")
20:42	mmoriarity	not enough irc in the world
20:43	CaptainLex	Need more IRC IRL
20:44	ThatOneGuy	…pub coding meet-ups?
20:44	ThatOneGuy	…hacker spaces?
20:45	Pupnik_	game jams
20:45	CaptainLex	My metro did just git a hacker space recently
20:45	CaptainLex	I have no memory of where it is
20:49	TEttinger	Raynes, if you have two bots that auto-announce youtube links... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1QZqQQOPfs
20:49	TEttinger	thank god
20:50	TEttinger	the title of that video was meant to test title and eval stuff
20:51	Raynes	TEttinger: Already had that problem once.
20:51	Raynes	Fixed it too.
20:51	TEttinger	one channel I'm in has two bots like that, and I set up "~whatis annoying" to yield that video
20:52	Raynes	$title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1QZqQQOPfs
20:52	lazybot	"##(str " http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1QZqQQOPfs ") ; noto - YouTube"
20:52	Raynes	I used to have that on all the time.
20:52	Raynes	But people complained about it so I turned it off.
20:52	Raynes	But before I did, people invented web pages with titles to cause a bot chain.
20:52	Raynes	So I added the quotes around the title to stop it.
20:52	TEttinger	I have it on for youtube and youtu.be
20:52	Raynes	This was way before I ever bothered to ignore clojurebot -- I spent a lot of time trying to mitigate attacks.
20:54	TEttinger	lazybot's good stuff
20:57	Pupnik_	except for its memory usage
21:07	dobry-den	Is there a way to check for String map keys with Schema? (s/validate {"foo" s/String} {"foo" "bar"}) doesn't work while (s/validate {:foo s/String} {:foo "bar"}) does
21:13	dobry-den	i guess {(s/eq "foo") s/String} works
21:17	ambrosebs	dobry-den: looks like the way to do it.
21:20	dobry-den	ambrosebs: actually, i don't know. So, this workd: (s/validate {:foo s/String s/Any s/Any} {:foo "bar" "abc" "def"})
21:20	dobry-den	But not this (s/validate {(s/eq "foo") s/String s/Any s/Any} {"foo" "bar" "a" "b"})
21:20	akurilin	Random REST/MVC-related question: if I'm creating 3-4 unrelated resources from the controller of one of these resources, is that a good indication that I should create a wrapper resource for all of them?
21:21	dobry-den	Basically the error I'm getting when trying to ensure String keys is "More than one non-optional/required key schemata"
21:25	ambrosebs	dobry-den: just going by the docs I don't know.
21:32	ambrosebs	dobry-den: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6336062
21:32	dobry-den	ambrosebs: thanks, i'll close my own issue
21:35	dobry-den	ambrosebs: thanks for the help.
21:35	ambrosebs	dobry-den: np
21:36	yedi	how do you do 301 redirects in ring
21:38	yedi	do you just return {:status 301 :headers "Location" someurl}
21:38	akurilin	yedi, that sounds about right, I could be missing something though.
21:40	dobry-den	yedi: https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/blob/master/ring-core/src/ring/util/response.clj
21:43	dobry-den	akurilin: do you have an example?
21:58	xeqi	Raynes, hyPiRion: oh, are we breaking lazybot again?
22:02	yedi	i'm trying to test if a string has an ending slash, how would I go about that?
22:02	xeqi	&(.endsWith "asdf/" "/")
22:02	lazybot	⇒ true
22:02	xeqi	&(.endsWith "asdf" "/")
22:02	lazybot	⇒ false
22:03	yedi	thanks
22:11	yedi	i'm trying to write a middleware for redirecting slashless uris to their slashed counterpart: e.g. (/about redirects to /about/)
22:11	yedi	can someone help me figure out what i'm doing incorrectly here: https://gist.github.com/yedi/106252dde45f40a75f89
22:14	xeqi	yedi: line 7 doesn't need to have the () around the map
22:16	yedi	ah beautiful, thanks
22:23	Raynes	xeqi: Please God no. My heart can't take it.
22:31	coventry`	Is there an easy way to change (foo) to [foo] in paredit? My current technique is C-w the current parens, do '[' at the start of the form, then C-) till the closing paren is in the right place.
22:32	amalloy	coventry`: learn to use: paredit-wrap-square, paredit-raise
22:32	coventry`	Also, anyone have a binding for saving (or reloading at the repl) a file before running its tests file with C-c C-,?
22:32	amalloy	well, i guess not raise. splice
22:33	coventry`	Oh, I see how to do it with splice. Thanks.
22:33	coventry`	Well, join.
22:43	weavejester	Has anyone started using smartparens over paredit?
22:43	akurilin	What do folks use for procedurally generating parameterized queries for PG around here? Is it pretty much korma? I have all these situations where sometimes I want an insert with or without returning, sometimes with limit, sometimes sorted etc.
22:44	weavejester	And if so, how on earth do you turn paredit off globally?
22:44	akurilin	:let paredit_mode=0 , but I imagine you're not on vim :P
22:45	weavejester	Unfortunately not...
22:45	weavejester	You'd have thought disabling paredit would be in the documentation somewhere
22:45	weavejester	Or discoverable through Google
22:45	Raynes	akurilin: WAT YOU CAN DO THAT
22:46	weavejester	But it seems to be something no-one ever thought would be needed.
22:46	noprompt	maybe check the authors dotfiles (if they are available)?
22:46	akurilin	Raynes, what specifically?
22:46	Raynes	akurilin: I have this: command! Ptoggle call PareditToggle()
22:47	akurilin	Raynes, never used that tbh, what paredit plugin are you using?
22:47	noprompt	this core.async stuff is confusing :\|
22:47	Raynes	akurilin: paredit.vim. I thought there was only one.
22:48	akurilin	Raynes, ok, just making sure
22:48	akurilin	Raynes, maybe you had discovered something amazing and I wasn't aware of it
22:48	akurilin	vim users need every little hack to survive against fancy emacs support :P
22:48	weavejester	It looks like the problem is that the starter-kit enables it by default, and the assumption is that if you don't want paredit, don't enable it.
22:50	noprompt	akurilin: i use emacs with vim keybindings. the only time i miss from vim is syntax highlighting for multiple modes (like erb, php).
22:51	scottj	weavejester: maybe you could redefine paredit-mode function to do nothing
22:51	akurilin	noprompt, got it. I've thought about it, but then vim fireplace happened and it eased things a little bit.
22:52	akurilin	We all owe tpope big time here on the vim side
22:52	noprompt	akurilin: yeah i bailed on vim right around the time fireplace was coming out.
22:52	weavejester	scottj: Is that standard elisp practice?
22:52	scottj	weavejester: nope
22:52	weavejester	It looks like the emacs starter kit insists certain things are started, with no option not to.
22:52	noprompt	akurilin: i still use it whenever i ssh or whatever. i'm glad i know how to use it too. :)
22:52	weavejester	scottj: Thought so :)
22:53	SegFaultAX	noprompt: How did you get started with the switch?
22:53	SegFaultAX	noprompt: Did you use one of the various starter kits or did you just dive right in fresh?
22:53	SegFaultAX	noprompt: And did you start use evil mode from the start?
22:53	SegFaultAX	Using, even.
22:53	noprompt	SegFaultAX: i used the starter kit and evil-mode then spent about a month learning how to tweak various things.
22:54	noprompt	SegFaultAX: i'm very happy with it. there are some annoyances, but over all i really love it.
22:54	weavejester	scottj: Aha, I took your advice, but made it slightly less hacky by overriding esk-turn-on-paredit instead.
22:55	SegFaultAX	noprompt: Can I look at your dotfiles? Are they on gh/bb?
22:55	noprompt	it's very nice to, say, have a terminal open inside your editor.
22:56	noprompt	SegFaultAX: sure. https://github.com/noprompt/matilde/blob/master/emacs.d/init.el
22:56	SegFaultAX	noprompt: Thanks!
22:57	noprompt	SegFaultAX: i also discovered keychord-mode is a nice little package to install and customize too.
22:57	SegFaultAX	noprompt: As you may have seen me talking about recently, I'm trying to give emacs an honest go. I've been using vim for many many years.
22:57	noprompt	my vim config uses a lot of ,<key> stuff and keychord can help with some of that.
22:58	SegFaultAX	noprompt: Where , is your <leader>
22:58	SegFaultAX	I'm assuming
22:58	noprompt	SegFaultAX: oh sure. i like both editors very much. i'm honestly glad i spent a few years with vim before trying emacs.
22:58	noprompt	SegFaultAX: modal editing is great.
22:59	SegFaultAX	noprompt: What caused you to make the switch?
22:59	noprompt	SegFaultAX: clojure. at the time i wanted a good integrated REPL experience and fireplace/vim-clojure were frustrating me.
23:00	noprompt	SegFaultAX: also for a long time i've wanted things like shells, etc inside my editor and vim doesn't do a good job with that.
23:00	noprompt	SegFaultAX: then there's vimscript.
23:00	SegFaultAX	noprompt: Don't get me started on vimscript.
23:01	jack_rabbit	lol
23:01	noprompt	yeah, don't get anyone started on vimscript.
23:01	SegFaultAX	noprompt: That's actually the number one driver for me to switch, although lisp support is a close second.
23:02	noprompt	i'm not saying vim is a bad editor for lisp. people certainly seem to be doing just fine with it.
23:02	muhoo	i do not mind switching back and forth between emacs and vim all day. what really fucks with my head is having to use some windows or mac derived editor. kills me. i keep tying emacs commands in them.
23:03	noprompt	muhoo: right. there are somethings i love to use vim for and others not so much.
23:03	muhoo	i do a lot of sysadmin stuff and vi is just a fact of life. if i'm ssh'ed in or sudo'ed, it's vi. if i'm doing development, repl, etc, it's all emacs.
23:03	SegFaultAX	muhoo: I thought most people just use the remote stuff in emacs to do that.
23:03	noprompt	but i'm not definitely not going to be one of those "let's start an editor war" type of folks. unless someone tries to push, you know, sublime on me or some shit like that.
23:03	muhoo	also, just try using emacs on an android phone. i dare you.
23:03	scottj	noprompt: there is evil-leader. I would be careful about keychord-mode, it can create major lag while typing
23:03	SegFaultAX	muhoo: Eg have the ssh session /inside/ emacs.
23:04	muhoo	SegFaultAX: sure, and lock up your whole emacs waiting for the file to save :-/
23:04	muhoo	there is one thing emacs does really poorly at and that's multithreading. in fact it doesn't do it at all. anything that's i/o bound is painful
23:04	noprompt	scottj: i noticed that. i think i only have a handful of keychords defined and most of them are defined only in normal mode. but i will look at evil-leader.
23:04	SegFaultAX	muhoo: vim has the same problem.
23:05	SegFaultAX	muhoo: Anyway, callen was trying to convince me that this is something common and natural in emacs.
23:05	SegFaultAX	Guess not.
23:05	muhoo	right, but i can use emacs for my local stuff and vi in a mosh/screen for remote
23:05	muhoo	i really could not live without either vi or emacs, now that i think of it.
23:05	muhoo	without BOTH, i mean.
23:06	muhoo	SegFaultAX: pop into #emacs channel and have a chat about that. last i asked, i didn't hear any solutions for remote stuff that appealed to me.
23:06	noprompt	ughh, i sware. this weekend i'm gonna sit down and learn how to use core.async.
23:07	muhoo	core.async is very tasty.
23:07	muhoo	it's like a simpler, easier-to-understand version of lamina/aleph.
23:07	SegFaultAX	Unless you try to read the source.
23:07	SegFaultAX	Have you looked at the go macro?
23:07	clj_newb_2345	what is the cheapest machine I can buy if all I want is for it to host a clojure web server?
23:07	clj_newb_2345	(a web server running on clojure)
23:08	clj_newb_2345	i.e. needs to be able to handle the jvm
23:08	SegFaultAX	clj_newb_2345: Probably digital ocean.
23:08	SegFaultAX	$5/mo
23:08	clj_newb_2345	not rent
23:08	muhoo	really? that cheap?
23:08	clj_newb_2345	buy
23:08	SegFaultAX	Single core, half a gig-ish of ram, ssd.
23:08	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
23:08	muhoo	oh, for single core and 500mb that's normal
23:09	SegFaultAX	clj_newb_2345: Oh, to build yourself? Probably $300 or so for the bare essentials. $800 for something pretty powerful. $1500+ for something production class.
23:09	SegFaultAX	$2.5k+ for something you expect to heavily virtualize.
23:10	clj_newb_2345	hmm
23:10	clj_newb_2345	so I should just get a mac mini
23:10	SegFaultAX	No. definitely not.
23:11	SegFaultAX	clj_newb_2345: Mac minis do not make good server hardware, especially not for CPU bound stuff.
23:12	clj_newb_2345	are clojure web apps io bound?
23:12	clj_newb_2345	I thought it was just the jvm hogging up crap tons of memory
23:12	SegFaultAX	clj_newb_2345: Depends on the app.
23:16	SegFaultAX	... I just typed "vim ~/.emacs.d/init.el"
23:16	CaptainLex	What silliness has caused this name?
23:16	CaptainLex	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: layout$fn--2653$fn
23:17	TEttinger	CaptainLex, that sounds like an anonymous fn
23:17	supersym	aren't the dashes normally not there?
23:17	CaptainLex	Okay, that makes sense in retrospect. Sadly, that anon is probably deep in the library I'm using :(
23:18	clj_newb_2345	is "core i3" the same as "-piece of shit" ?
23:18	TEttinger	like you made something like ##(map #(print "whee") [1 2 3])
23:18	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: sandbox91102$eval137053$fn
23:18	TEttinger	when...
23:18	TEttinger	##(map (fn [] (print "whee")) [1 2 3])
23:18	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: sandbox91102$eval137064$fn
23:18	TEttinger	##(map (fn [_] (print "whee")) [1 2 3])
23:18	lazybot	⇒ (wheewheewheenil nil nil)
23:18	TEttinger	works fine
23:19	TEttinger	clj_newb_2345, no
23:19	TEttinger	they still make celeron procs I think
23:19	TEttinger	i3 is low end, but not THAT low end
23:19	clojurebot	Ok.
23:19	TEttinger	dammit
23:19	TEttinger	~i3
23:19	clojurebot	i3 is low end, but not THAT low end
23:20	TEttinger	it's not AMD low end
23:21	clj_newb_2345	oh
23:21	clj_newb_2345	so it's i7 > i5 > i3 > celeron > AMD ?
23:21	TEttinger	not exactly
23:22	TEttinger	I mean
23:22	TEttinger	low end AMD is extremely low end
23:22	clj_newb_2345	i7 > i5 > i3 > celeron > 386 > AMD ?
23:22	TEttinger	but there's decent AMD procs too
23:22	TEttinger	check the benchmarks at notebookcheck
23:23	TEttinger	http://www.notebookcheck.net/Mobile-Processors-Benchmarklist.2436.0.html
23:25	TEttinger	clj_newb_2345, you can see that the highest end AMD-made chip is worse than a mid-range chip from intel, both latest generation. ouch.
23:28	muhoo	atom was the lo end of intel last i looked
23:29	muhoo	hell i ran clojure on a beaglebone
23:29	muhoo	it was slow and nrepl didn't work, but it worked
23:35	qwer	what's the deal with clojure.contrib.math?
23:35	xeqi	~contrib
23:35	clojurebot	Monolithic clojure.contrib has been split up in favor of smaller, actually-maintained libs. Transition notes here: http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
23:36	qwer	so it's not included in standard clojure? I'm looking for the expt functionality
23:38	uvtc	qwer, are you looking for this: <https://github.com/clojure/math.numeric-tower>?
23:38	hiredman	Math/pow
23:39	qwer	(Math/pow 2 8)
23:39	uvtc	,(Math/pow 2 8)
23:39	clojurebot	256.0
23:39	qwer	ahh
23:39	qwer	anyway to make it and int other than cast it?
23:40	qwer	,(long (Math/pow 2 50))
23:40	clojurebot	1125899906842624
23:46	weavejester	Agh, I still can't get emacs-starter-kit not to load paredit for everything.
23:46	weavejester	I think I might have to dump it.
23:50	supersym	yeah hate it when those things are a show-stopper... actually a reason I haven't taken on emacs yet
23:50	supersym	too much to figure out atm
23:50	weavejester	I'm just going to use my own version of it, I think.
23:50	uvtc	I remember not getting emacs-starter-kit, so instead I just started with the basics.
23:51	uvtc	Hm. Doesn't seem to be much at <https://github.com/technomancy/emacs-starter-kit> anymore (well, since the last time I looked)...
23:55	weavejester	Yeah, maybe the inflexibility is one of the reasons technomancy is changing it.