#clojure – 2013-08-28

2013-08-28

00:01	bbloom	i've got a toy interpreter that is dispatching on type & experimenting w/ some of the ideas related to Cleff. in the theoretical background for algebraic effects, they consider it an effect to allocate a new "effect instance" which, if you're dispatching on type, must be a jvm type
00:01	bbloom	knowing full well that this interpreter is mega slow & will always be
00:01	bbloom	i just want it to not like EXPLODE
00:01	bbloom	so i wonder if types ever get GCed or anything like that
00:02	bbloom	otherwise, i need to add dispatch on instance, which i might have needed to do anyway :-P
00:03	bbloom	ie something like http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/specify+i.e.+reify+for+instances
00:04	bbloom	shrug just wondering. probably won't change my hacky hack hacking either way
00:06	grandy	just learning clojure and had a quick question. Trying to use the serial-port library with lein and apparently this library has binary deps and so only works with cake (https://github.com/samaaron/serial-port/issues/2). Anyone have any advice for how I ought to proceed?
00:07	amalloy	grandy: that's a two-year-old issue; lein has long since gotten support for native dependencies (although i don't know how to do it)
00:08	grandy	amalloy: ahh ok, i was hoping that would be the case. So I guess I should google for native dependencies lein
00:08	bbloom	hold on, i was on the PR for that… i can dig it up
00:09	bbloom	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/898
00:10	bbloom	actually, that's a much more specific issue
00:10	bbloom	but it might help you find what to grep for. sorry, good luck!
00:11	technomancy	so... who wants faster lein task runs?
00:11	bbloom	actually, it's not so bad. i don't really feel the need to complain, but i basically live in the repl
00:12	grandy	bbloom: thanks
00:12	technomancy	bbloom: try a grenchman: https://github.com/technomancy/grenchman
00:13	bbloom	ah, so this is your ocaml project :-)
00:13	technomancy	yes indeedy
00:13	technomancy	http://p.hagelb.org/grench <- 64-bit linux binary if you don't want to pull in the whole compiler chain
00:13	bbloom	`grench` is quite a bit longer than `lein` :-P
00:14	technomancy	hm; almost 50%
00:14	bbloom	those extra characters are gonna suck up all the time i save with faster load times
00:14	technomancy	there's a cost to everything
00:14	technomancy	tanstaafl, &c
00:14	bbloom	:-D
00:16	bbloom	i think i said this last time, but ocaml is so much easier to read than haskell
00:16	grandy	not trying to flood the channel with extremely dumb questions, but just curious, it would appear that serial-port would work with lein, so is it likely that I'm just doing something else wrong in trying to use it? https://clojars.org/serial-port
00:16	bbloom	i've written 10X and read 100X as much haskell as ocaml or ML, but meanwhile, i can actually read/write the latter
00:16	technomancy	bbloom: because of fewer monads?
00:17	technomancy	(I have never tried to read haskell)
00:17	technomancy	not having whitespace-sensitivity is nice though
00:17	bbloom	more parenthesis :-P
00:17	technomancy	heh, well I might be putting them where it's not necessary
00:17	technomancy	I haven't internalized all the insane precedence rules
00:18	bbloom	the bigger thing is that the type-level language in ocaml is MUCH SMALLER
00:18	brehaut	technomancy: moar dollars!!1
00:18	bbloom	haskell is really TWO languages: a term language and a logic engine. the logic engine has totally different syntax...
00:19	brehaut	technomancy: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Keywords#infix.2C_infixl.2C_infixr is why you cant internalize all the precedence rules
00:19	bbloom	good news is that you can solve a rubix cube at compile time!
00:19	Raynes	I
00:19	Raynes	I'm totally going to rewrite grenchman in Haskell.
00:21	brehaut	bbloom: also, they added a functional view on the type system a year or so back, so you dont have to treat it as a logic engine
00:22	bbloom	brehaut: nice.
00:22	brehaut	bbloom: also hugely magical
00:43	wei_	I'm expecting (let [u (<! c)] (.log js/console u)) to give me a value on the channel. but instead it prints the channel itself. what's going on?
00:44	hiredman	wei_: are you sure you don't have a channel on a channel?
00:44	hiredman	(do c and u print out the same?)
00:47	wei_	actually, <! seems to not block like I expect. let me post a small gist, thanks for the help
00:51	wei_	https://gist.github.com/yayitswei/6362139
00:51	wei_	are you allowed to use macros inside of go blocks?
00:55	amalloy	wei_: yes, but you can't use >! or <! from inside a lambda, and many macros expand into lambdas
00:55	amalloy	go can only transform the current local function, not any functions called from it
00:56	wei_	amalloy: i see, thanks
00:59	wei_	so in my code above should I just expand out the shoreleave.remotes.macros/letrpc macro
01:02	amalloy	uhhhh, if that were a solution you wouldn't have to do it: that's the macroexpander's exact job. the problem is that this macro expands to something that go can't work with
01:02	rhg135	quick ?, is theere a way to recurse on every item of a seq or is it a code-smell and I should refactor?
01:03	amalloy	it expands into something like (remote-callback "some-path" [some-args] (fn [result] (<! ...))), which can't be put into a go
01:04	amalloy	rhg135: i think that describes how almost everything works in a functional language, at a low level, so you have to be more specific about what exactly you want and why you don't like what you have
01:05	rhg135	im working on a fs, and i want this function to return a vector on a file node but recurs on it's subfiles if it's a directory
01:05	rhg135	huh
01:05	rhg135	typing it out it makes no sense
01:06	rhg135	i guess ill have to refactor a bit
01:07	rhg135	maybe return a map regardless of node kind
01:09	wei_	amalloy: oh right. so I have to turn the callback form into a blocking call instead
01:10	amalloy	rhg135: look up file-seq and tree-seq
01:11	rhg135	no i'm writing a fs, but yeah the source code may help
01:11	rhg135	thx
01:11	rhg135	also this is my current code https://www.refheap.com/18094
01:14	futile	Does Clojure have something like select(), or something that can more efficiently communicate over a socket than just spawning new threads all the time?
01:14	rhg135	heh turns out I was re-implementing tree-seq
01:15	rhg135	amalloy++
01:15	futile	(inc amalloy)
01:15	lazybot	⇒ 70
01:15	rhg135	oh
01:15	bbloom	futile: the JVM doesn't have anything like select… unless you count something like core.async
01:15	futile	Yeah, you don't want to inc him much more than this. He'll get a big head.
01:15	bbloom	futile: actually, that's not true. check out nio
01:16	futile	Okay, thanks.
01:16	bbloom	nio has Selectors
01:16	bbloom	futile: more generally though, the JVM doesn't have anything like WaitForMultipleObjectsEx
01:16	bbloom	but if you only care about OS-level sockets, then nio will do the trick
01:17	futile	Great.
01:18	bbloom	the nio API is absurdly complex
01:18	futile	Yeah, I'm not going to deal with that tonight.
01:19	bbloom	it's got about 37974353 interfaces w/ the idea that you can implement your own selectors, but it turns out that lots of stuff is incorrectly private or package level & it's actually impossible to implement custom multiplexing for your own objects
01:19	futile	bbloom: wow, that's a terrible design flaw.
01:20	futile	bbloom: I guess they need a nnio now
01:20	bbloom	i think they just need to make 2 or 3 private things public & write a scary docstring
01:21	futile	But backwards incompatibility!
02:08	futile	I want to be that guy that's really smart and helpful but nobody's ever jealous of because he's always making you feel good about yourself and he really believes in you.
02:09	futile	But he does really cool things like works at NASA and writes compilers and text editors and stuff, but he also always seems to find time to sit down with you for however long you want to just chat about what you want to chat about.
02:10	ddellacosta	woah, I didn't realize grenchman existed until now. freaking cool
02:10	futile	Yeah.
02:10	futile	Just found it via trptcolin's public activity.
02:10	futile	Weird.
02:12	futile	What's the best way to parse Clojure code given as a string, and get data back about its structure?
02:18	rhg135	Read-str?
02:18	futile	Where's that located?
02:18	futile	,read-str
02:18	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: read-str in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
02:19	rhg135	Ing
02:19	futile	Is there a variation that can support partial forms, like "(+ 1 2" and give you back a data structure with information about how it's unfinished?
02:19	rhg135	Uμ
02:20	rhg135	Um*
02:20	s4muel	,read-string
02:20	clojurebot	#<core$read_string clojure.core$read_string@17b18c3>
02:20	s4muel	,(doc read-string)
02:20	clojurebot	"([s]); Reads one object from the string s. Note that read-string can execute code (controlled by read-eval), and as such should be used only with trusted sources. For data structure interop use clojure.edn/read-string"
02:21	futile	,clojure.edn/read-string
02:21	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.edn, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
02:21	futile	,(use 'clojure.edn)
02:21	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
02:21	futile	:(
02:21	futile	,(require '[clojure.edn :as e])
02:21	clojurebot	nil
02:21	futile	,e/read-string
02:21	clojurebot	#<edn$read_string clojure.edn$read_string@100a79b>
02:21	futile	Neat.
02:21	futile	,(e/read-string "(+ 1 2")
02:21	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
02:21	futile	:(
02:34	callen	,(e/read-string "(+ 1 2)"
02:34	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
02:34	callen	,(e/read-string "(+ 1 2)")
02:34	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: e, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
02:34	callen	,(require '[clojure.edn :as e])
02:34	clojurebot	nil
02:34	callen	,(e/read-string "(+ 1 2)")
02:34	clojurebot	(+ 1 2)
02:35	callen	futile: ^^
02:35	callen	,(eval (e/read-string "(+ 1 2)"))
02:35	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
02:35	callen	"SANBOX"
02:35	seangrov`	hah
02:35	futile	callen: I'm trying to get information about an unfinished form.
02:35	futile	callen: i.e. that "(+ 1 2" is only waiting on one level before it's fully closed.
02:48	murtaza52	+cnt
02:49	futile	wat
02:59	clj_newb_2345	anyone have a toy impelemtnation of sql in clojure?
02:59	clj_newb_2345	(I'm not looking for production use; just something for reading the code
03:00	futile	(inc augustl)
03:00	lazybot	⇒ 1
03:27	SegFaultAX	Hickey's most recent talk is sort of strange.
03:27	SegFaultAX	It's interesting, but I think he leaned a little too hard on the music analogy.
03:36	ambrosebs	SegFaultAX: FWIW I loved it.
03:36	ambrosebs	I might be biased as a muso.
03:37	ambrosebs	The analogy of things doing "one thing" really makes sense in the context of musical instruments.
03:37	ambrosebs	IMO
03:41	ivan	I wish infoq served video+slides mp4s or could play at faster speeds
03:42	shaunxcode	SegFaultAX: which talk is that?
03:42	ivan	http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Design-Composition-Performance
03:51	ka_	\quit
04:55	ddellacosta	is there a way to pass in a string to re-pattern so that it escapes regex chars?
05:11	kral	namaste
05:22	noidi	ddellacosta, http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/util/regex/Pattern.html#quote%28java.lang.String%29
05:23	ddellacosta	noidi: thanks. I feel like this should be an option with re-pattern (or an alternative function), but I can see why they wouldn't want to do that by default.
05:23	noidi	,(java.util.regex.Pattern/quote "\\s")
05:23	clojurebot	"\\Q\\s\\E"
05:25	ddellacosta	in any case, I just ended up manually escaping the "problem" characters, since it was just a few. If I was doing this on a larger scale I'd probably be using Pattern/quote.
06:38	fuz	hey guys, i'm using clojurescript but i'm having an error in my generated javascript. i don't know if it's a bracketing problem as I used to get two errors rather then just one. can someone take a look? http://pastebin.com/jSpKq52f
06:39	clgv	fuz: you should post the error message as well as a more explicit problem description
06:40	fuz	in general, the async channels work - i just get an error just before the 'hello from inside the channel!' - in Javascript, Uncaught TypeError: Object [object Object] has no method 'call'
06:41	fuz	the last time i got this error, it was to do with bad brackets, so i'm a bit confused why it works and i still get an error
06:41	fuz	could it be clojurescript?
07:50	ciphergoth	How nervous do I need to be about a blocking response to an HTTP request in Aleph?
07:50	ciphergoth	Do I need to be strict about making everything properly asynchronous?
08:56	arcatan	is there some command-line program for sending commands to nrepl that does not incur JVM startup times?
09:01	arcatan	i guess i could hack grenchman a bit to do that
09:23	wei_	is there a shoreleave/fetch like library that blocks instead of uses callbacks? would ilke to use it with core.async
09:29	dnolen	wei_: you can easily make a callback based library work w/ core.async
10:12	noncom	what is the best fifo stack for clojure? i need to be able to read the arbitrary stack entries too..
10:12	noncom	will core.cache do/
10:12	noncom	?
10:12	wei_	dnolen: could you give an example of converting a callback-based library to work with core.async? my problem was that I couldn't use a go block in a lambda
10:13	clgv	noncom: vector is a stack
10:13	clgv	but a stack is first-in-last-out
10:14	noncom	clgv: i thought about vectors.. is it idiomatic to do a fifo with a vector?
10:14	noncom	won't it pollute memory?
10:14	clgv	noncom: what exactly do you want to do?
10:14	noncom	i need to keep a history of events coming from network. say i want to keep track of 100 last events
10:15	noncom	and be able to access all the stored events if i need to
10:15	noncom	but most often i only access the last one
10:15	clgv	noncom: do you need a persistent data structure?
10:15	clgv	there is clojure.lang.PersistentQueue for that case
10:16	noncom	i think that the queue has to be synchronized because some other thread might be reading the stack, while the netwrok acceptor will push in a new event, removing the old one
10:16	clgv	hmm well you need only the last element most of the time and less often the previous ones?
10:17	clgv	do you discard the whole structure after you processed it?
10:17	noncom	clgv: it depends. these events are spatial coordinates. if the processor will need previous coordinates, say, to build a characteristic of the curve (a gesture), it will need them. this is for touch interface
10:18	clgv	noncom. so if you need FIFO you can use clojure.lang.PersistentQueue within an atom
10:18	noncom	discard is only done if event becomes too old (number 101) or the touch is released, when the whole history is discarded since the touch is no more
10:19	clgv	or a reference if you need to coordinate more than just the queue
10:20	clgv	noncom: hmm sounds not as if there was some datastructure implemented for that yet. you need a bounded queue
10:20	noncom	in java i used a linked list...
10:21	clgv	hmm you could use one of javas data structures in java.util.concurrent - there are bounded queues
10:21	noncom	very good, i will look into those!
10:24	noncom	clgv: if i'll just go with atom with [], will it litter the memory much?
10:24	clgv	noncom: you cant use vector in a non-destructive way as FIFO queue. that is not possible
10:26	noncom	but if it is stored in an atom, then i can (conj (drop veñ 1) evt), and whatever thread works with that atom, it works with the dereferenced value, and that ensures thread-safety... ?
10:27	mucker	Hi all, I am looking for a template engine which is like jinja (template inheritance (have existing templates)). Does clojure have one ?
10:28	clgv	noncom: I'd use ArrayBlockingQueue
10:28	ro_st	mucker: i've not used it, but selmer might do it for you: log-for-time-period
10:28	noncom	ok, i'll try
10:28	ro_st	erk
10:28	ro_st	https://github.com/yogthos/Selmer
10:29	mucker	ro_st: great ! thanks
10:29	clgv	noncom: in case of conflicting changes atoms will retry the computation
11:08	deech	Hi all, how do I pass a mutable variable to a Java function? For instance pass a Colloection from the Clojure side that will be filled up on the Java side.
11:09	llasram	deech: Just like with Java, you'd just pass a reference to a mutable object
11:09	llasram	For example, a new ArrayList: ##(java.util.ArrayList.)
11:09	lazybot	⇒ #<ArrayList []>
11:11	deech	llasram: Ah, so I couldn't just pass in a Clojure vector, right? I'd have to explicitly create a Collection.
11:11	cmajor7	deech: why can't your "Java side" return a collection that you can work with later on. e.g. what is a motive of passing an existing (state) collection
11:11	cmajor7	?
11:11	deech	cmajor7: Out of my control :). 3rd party lib.
11:12	cmajor7	the API takes an empty List ?
11:12	deech	Yup.
11:12	cmajor7	deech: is it a closed sourced API? just curious why would anybody do that
11:14	deech	Here's the constructor: https://github.com/Cascading/maple/blob/develop/src/jvm/com/twitter/maple/tap/MemorySinkTap.java#L20, and here's where the list is filled (I think):https://github.com/Cascading/maple/blob/develop/src/jvm/com/twitter/maple/tap/MemorySinkTap.java#L52
11:17	cmajor7	deech: as I read it, it actually expects some "tuples", hence is taking a List (e.g. a list may have tuples at the point of creation)
11:18	cmajor7	deech: but then since it is not quite obvious what a "MemorySinkTap" is, it's hard to say
11:19	cmajor7	deech: but yea, if empty is fine then (java.util.ArrayList.)
11:19	cmajor7	deech: but a list does not need to be mutable, why do you think it should?
11:21	cmajor7	deech: e.g. clojure vector implements List interface as well: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/APersistentVector.java#L19
11:22	deech	cmajor7: I don't think a list should be mutable. That was my first (non-working) pass at trying to figure out how to pass an acceptable argument to the constructor.
11:22	deech	cmajor7: In fact I love that it is not.
11:23	cmajor7	deech: right, you said "how do I pass a mutable variable to a Java function?", which lead me to believe you wanted it mutable, but yea, a Clojure vector will do.
11:25	rkneufeld	yogthos: Congrats on the pragprog beta launch of "Web Development in Clojure" (http://pragprog.com/book/dswdcloj/web-development-with-clojure)
11:26	deech	cmajor7: thanks for your help!
11:26	yogthos	rkneufeld: thanks, it's nice to finally have it out :)
11:26	ambrosebs	yogthos: congrats
11:26	yogthos	rkneufeld: looking forward to the Cookbook :)
11:27	rkneufeld	yogthos: Me too! You probably know how stressful it is to be in the midst of writing a book ;)
11:27	yogthos	ambrosebs: thanks
11:28	yogthos	rkneufeld: it's certainly more work than I originally anticipated, but rewarding as well
11:28	rkneufeld	My sentiments exactly
11:28	callen	I need to get somebody to use bulwark.
11:28	callen	Raynes: you're on deck.
11:28	callen	PREPARE THYSELF
11:30	seangrov`	yogthos: I've heard a lot of authors share the sentiment of the first part of that statement, but not many share the second
11:31	yogthos	seangrov`: I really enjoyed the experience overall, forced me to learn a bunch of stuff and work on my writing skills
11:32	seangrov`	It's very cool from an outsider/non-author perspective, but it does seem a ton of work :)
11:32	yogthos	I won't lie it definitely is
11:32	llasram	deech: Wandering back -- are you doing Cascalog foo, or trying to wire up some "raw" Cascading to Clojure?
11:33	deech	llasram: "raw" Cascading.
11:33	callen	seangrov`: you think he's got it bad, my idea for a book is to make people do something they don't usually want to do.
11:34	llasram	deech: Ok. It might still be worth checking out Cascalog's code to see how they solved these sorts of issues
11:34	deech	llasram: That's a great call. Thanks!
11:35	seangrov`	callen: Altruistically may be good, though capitalism may punish you...
11:36	callen	seangrov`: I know nobody will buy the book, but there needs to be at least one resource out there on how to learn to read code.
11:36	callen	(that you didn't write)
11:36	mlb-	As I understand, (swap! x y & z) is something like (apply y x & z). I've come across code where x and y are not parameters. Is it some idiom/shorthand to use swap! instead of apply?
11:37	seangrov`	callen: Burn it (the code), and rewrite it from scratch. Done.
11:37	seangrov`	I like the idea though if there are actually helpful suggestions
11:37	callen	seangrov`: learning to read code, in my opinion, makes people become better programmers faster - by an order of magnitude.
11:37	llasram	mlb-: swap! is for mutating atoms -- if you didn't know that?
11:37	alexyakushev	mlb: swap! is an apply to change the value of an atom
11:38	callen	seangrov`: take for example libraries like JQuery. Imagine how much better off JQuery users would be if they understood what they were using?
11:38	callen	people need to be more patient. The rushing around to hammer out code and ship doesn't necessarily make you a better or more efficient programmer in the long run.
11:38	seangrov`	callen: So how much of it is "reading code" and how much is "understanding the system it describes"?
11:39	callen	seangrov`: 'tis both laddie. I start from one end and work towards the other. I planned to do it by "modules", each a module a decent sized library or system.
11:39	seangrov`	jQuery isn't too bad to read, function by function, but understanding the whole module system from the code is pretty laborious
11:39	callen	first I explain reading the code, start extracting common patterns, explain idioms, explain how to identify them, and then work towards tying it together.
11:40	callen	I'm also in the unfortunate position of writing an entire book about other peoples' code which leaves infinite surface area to be wrong. Sigh.
11:40	mlb-	llasram, alexyakushev: Oh. my bad. Had confused for haskell swap. Nevermind =]
11:40	callen	I'm considering a "test" blog post or series of blog posts to see how the idea shakes out in reality.
11:41	seangrov`	callen: I'd definitely be interested in reading it. Though part of me wonders how much of it relies on the reader's ability to suss out the patters, and how much is the responsibility of the author to maintain proper separation of code
11:41	seangrov`	Is it meant to work for both "good" and "bad" code bases?
11:41	callen	seangrov`: learning how to suss out patterns is part of the point.
11:42	callen	seangrov`: good/bad - haven't decided, I'm not super-duper concerned about the pathological case, the real problem is that 95%+ of programmers don't even read the good code that they rely on.
11:42	callen	so, why not solve that problem first?
11:42	seangrov`	Ok, that seems tractable
11:42	callen	I don't need to fix the universe in one go.
11:42	callen	I just want to get more programmers in the habit of reading the bloody code they use.
11:42	seangrov`	I'd like to read a post or two of that
11:47	gfredericks	would we expect a (deftype Pair [a b]) to be faster for creation/access than a two-element vector?
11:48	gfredericks	I'm showing a factor of 6 slowdown and am terribly curious where that's coming from
11:49	ambrosebs	deftype is slower?
11:49	gfredericks	using (vector x (inc x)) and (second v) versus (Pair. x (inc x)) and (.right pair)
11:49	gfredericks	yes deftype is 6 times slower
11:49	gfredericks	I'm working on writing this up a bit more formally with criterium for a gist
11:59	gfredericks	yep, six times slower with criterium too: https://gist.github.com/fredericksgary/6367436
11:59	noncom	callen: maybe somehow enforce that unless you read and understand the code of an opensource library, you cannot use it?
12:01	gfredericks	oh wait
12:01	gfredericks	I bet there's reflection in there facepalm
12:01	ambrosebs	lol
12:02	gfredericks	(set! punch-on-reflection true)
12:08	gfredericks	yes deftype is moderately faster; 32ms vs 45ms.
12:13	callen	noncom: I think that's called just making the library hard to use and undocumented. Not really what I want. I'm in Klishin's camp on that subject.
12:14	callen	gfredericks: you should add ztellman's tuple library.
12:14	callen	gfredericks: to that test, that is. the tuples are WAY faster for things like two elements.
12:15	TimMc	callen: Nah, even that doesn't work, if you can find another codebase that uses the library. Monkey see, monkey do!
12:15	callen	TimMc: stop ruining my dreams of coder literacy with cargo cult :(
12:15	noncom	callen: hey, i was joking :D.. however, interesting, what is it about Klishin's way? never heard of..
12:16	callen	noncom: ClojureWerkz crew, cool guys. Care about documentation and nice libraries. :)
12:16	gfredericks	callen: I hadn't expected any tuple lib's approach to be substantially different from a (deftype Pair [a b])
12:17	callen	gfredericks: please look at the library.
12:17	gfredericks	callen: yessir
12:17	callen	gfredericks: not trying to order you around, I just think it'll be illuminating.
12:22	TimMc	Hmm, it uses a single-segment namespace. :-(
12:24	mimieux	technomancy: regarding slamhound what does mean the following output? http://pastebin.com/anAGHbLT
12:24	kyled	Morning all
12:24	jamii	This is fun:
12:24	jamii	user> (eval ^{:line 11, :column 20} [])
12:24	jamii	ClassCastException java.lang.Long cannot be cast to java.lang.Integer clojure.lang.Compiler.eval (Compiler.java:6597)
12:24	nDuff	mimieux: FYI, pastebin.com is full of animated ads for anyone not using adblock/noscripts/&c.
12:27	gfredericks	callen: this is comprehensive but I haven't seen anything particularly surprising yet; any hints why I would expect it to perform differently?
12:27	jamii	user> (eval '[do (inc 1)])
12:27	jamii	2
12:28	clgv	(edn/read (java.io.PushbackReader. (io/reader "samples/seattle/seattle-data0.dtm"))) results in RuntimeException No reader function for tag db/id. although db/id seems to be bound in data-readers
12:30	clgv	context: I am trying to do the datomic tutorial in clojure
12:33	mimieux	nDuff: now using refheap :D
12:35	gfredericks	callen: yeah it's about the same as the deftype; maybe you missed my facepalm about reflection?
12:36	llasram	clgv: edn/read doesn't use data-reader -- you need to pass a map if you want to use tagged literals. Check the docstring
12:37	clgv	llasram: oh thanks. didnt use edn before...
12:39	`cbp	well it IS a deftype just fully featured and 1 deftype per size :D
12:40	gfredericks	`cbp: exactly, that's why I was wondering what callen thought was so illuminating
12:41	noncom	does anyone know, are there plans to add fast unboxed computations in some future?
12:42	noncom	i mean without using different quirks to acheive semi-unboxed ones
12:42	llasram	AFAIK Clojure already uses unboxed primitives for local computations, doesn't it?
12:43	noncom	you mean with typehints or coercions?
12:44	llasram	Well, with whatever gives the compiler sufficient type information to know it can use primitives
12:45	noncom	yes, i think it is so..
12:46	clgv	noncom: it is unlikely that it becomes possible to use primitives without type hints
12:47	noncom	yes that would require big changes aside from that it is almost undoable while preserving the paradigm
12:47	clgv	noncom: what problem do you have with type hints?
12:49	noncom	no real problem with typehints... i have been talking in this irc some time ago with ppl that there is trouble for supporting floats and ints. just no real support. it seems to worry nobody, but for me it is a real pain.. oh well..
12:49	noncom	i guess my real problem is that i crave for 32-bit types
12:49	noncom	unboxed
12:50	clgv	noncom: because you have a scenario with huge memory consuption and want to trade precision/range for memory space?
12:51	clgv	noncom: in fact you can "patch" clojure to have functions accepting primitive ints or floats with a custom defn/fn but you will need to put all invocations in a macro.
12:52	noncom	not really. the main reason is that i work with opengl much and with java opengl libraries. they all use 32 bit floats and ints because all the hardware does. all the implications of clojure havingonly 64-bit support boil down to such significant framedrops (even with all the typehinting and casting i can imagine) that i wake at nights
12:52	clgv	I managed to use primitive functions being passed as values that way
12:52	dnolen	bbloom: hrm, I guess with ANF transform will need to carefully propagate line number information
12:52	dnolen	seangrov`: did you get a chance to try out the keywords branch?
12:52	seangrov`	dnolen: No, I'll try it now
12:52	noncom	patch? i would do this. i have been looking at the clojure sources recently but did not start yet tying the ends... your experience is very interesting.. could you tell more?
12:53	clgv	noncom: well you need arrays for those functions anyway - so why dont you use int or float arrays?
12:53	dnolen	seangrov`: thx!
12:53	bbloom	dnolen: yeah, it's easy to fuck it up anytime you synthesis your own symbols w/o metadata on them
12:53	bbloom	dnolen: but as long as you're just moving symbol objects, it's not too bad
12:53	clgv	noncom: no! "patch"! that means writing macros :D
12:54	noncom	clgv: arrays are only at the bottom. i have to do dozens of computations which intertwine with opengl java lib calls and them use floats. such an intertwining implies 10x more casts.
12:54	noncom	s/dozens/billions
12:54	clgv	noncom: do you have a short example?
12:55	dnolen	bbloom: in your version you would extract the original forms and rewrite into ClojureScript form and analyze - but I guess you have to carefully attach the metadata to generated forms and introduced symbols before calling analyze.
12:56	noncom	clgv: i can post a refheap of an example, i've been working with recently, although i'll have to tear it off of the rest of the code, but it is pretty readable in itself i guess..
12:56	clgv	does datomic have a macro version of datomic.api/q?
12:56	bbloom	dnolen: i think as long as you reuse the symbols, it's fine, right? or do you need the metadata on the lists too?
12:57	bbloom	dnolen: also the only reason i really do it the way i do it is b/c parsing is complected with analysis
12:57	bbloom	dnolen: i'll explain that comment in a moment, gotta finish something for a client
12:58	noncom	clgv: here: https://www.refheap.com/18111
12:58	dnolen	bbloom: pretty sure you do if you want accurate stepping information, it's why source maps support lines w/o symbols.
12:58	noncom	clgv: read from the bottom
12:59	noncom	there is a println, but sure i was testing without it
12:59	noncom	that piece simulates attraction of particles, according to some law
13:00	clgv	noncom: first advice on reading. if you pass data to a clojure function there is no use type hinting it before
13:00	noncom	300 cubes show a very significant framedrop. about 1500 -> 17 fps. I have recently asynchronized the Control, which makes the calculations, so fps is now about 270, but due to the calculations running in another thread, they lose time coherence and animation is laggy
13:01	noncom	clgv: typehinting before you mean where before?
13:01	noncom	for ex?
13:02	clgv	noncom: you should annotate your constants with ^:const then the compiler can infer their primitive type if they have one
13:02	clgv	noncom: for example in compute-offsets
13:02	noncom	it will infer doubles, but will it infer floats?
13:03	rurumate	I'm trying to connect emacs and the browser to a clourescript repl, using lein cljsbuild or something. lein-cljsbuild's advanced example seems a good starting point. I can manipulate the browser from the cli repl, but the emacs won't play nice yet. Does anyone have this setup (firefox + emacs + cljs-repl) running?
13:03	clgv	noncom: not sure. cgrand had a macro where you could check
13:03	seangrov`	dnolen: As an aside, SpiderMonkey seems to fail on this test: out/core-advanced-test.js:485: Error: Assert failed: (not (integer? 1e+308))
13:04	seangrov`	Is that expected?
13:04	aaelony	hey guys, looking for a bit of advice for a scheduling library. Basically, I am looking for a library to schedule function calls on an hourly interval. I see Chime, Quartzite, and at-at… which one is preferred ?
13:04	rurumate	aaelony: wait, I'll make a pastie
13:04	justin_smith	what's the predicate that tells me if something can be dereferenced?
13:04	aaelony	rurumate: sweet!
13:05	justin_smith	that I even want to know at runtime makes me think something is designed wrong... but I assume there must be some predicate
13:05	aaelony	rurumate: you mean a refheap ?? ;)
13:06	blrm	justin_smith: i think that would be realized?
13:06	justin_smith	,(realized? nil)
13:06	clojurebot	#<NullPointerException java.lang.NullPointerException>
13:06	jkkramer	justin_smith: (instance? clojure.lang.IDeref x)
13:06	justin_smith	that is the case I am looking at
13:06	justin_smith	cool!
13:07	justin_smith	(inc jkkramer)
13:07	lazybot	⇒ 5
13:08	noncom	clgv: other than that, you think the code is ok?
13:09	noncom	all the jme-related functions are typehinted in the jme-namespace. typehinting them improved performance, but not as much as i would like to...
13:09	noncom	jme is the opengl library
13:09	clgv	noncom: well you have no primitive functions there so passing doubles/floats/ints/longs leads to boxing
13:09	noncom	clgv: what about primitive functions?
13:09	seangrov`	dnolen: I'm getting an error compiling on an certain js-obj form ... will look into it
13:09	clgv	noncom: do you know the fibonacci example?
13:09	noncom	ahaha which one?
13:10	clgv	noncom: here http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Enhanced+Primitive+Support
13:11	clgv	noncom: but limited to double and long
13:11	noncom	ugh
13:11	noncom	i'm thinking about looking at clojure sources to make it support ints and longs if it is possible. i think it is a matter of a little job. but who knows...
13:12	noncom	s/longs/floats
13:12	clgv	noncom: no you do not need to change clojure source. you can implement it as a library
13:12	noncom	i will have to read the fibonacci example carefully when i have some free time today
13:13	clgv	noncom: in fact clojure functions are (simplified) only objects of classes that implement IFn
13:13	rurumate	aaelony: http://pastebin.com/Xz9AtxAs
13:13	zphds	is it ok to use (delay..) for creating 'lazy' vars? Like a db connection?
13:13	seangrov`	dnolen: Seems like it's choking on anonymous functions: https://www.refheap.com/45fd544bac82e81745a19fad5
13:13	seangrov`	Let me see if it happens with master
13:14	jkkramer	zphds: yes, quite common
13:14	noncom	wouldn't it about the compiler's core? adding primitive types knowledge for the compiler does not look like a library case... ?
13:14	zphds	jkkramer: cool… thanks
13:14	noncom	i know about IFn yes
13:14	aaelony	rurumate: thanks, man. So quartz is the way to go?
13:16	rurumate	aaelony: it's not a very nice api, but it works for me
13:17	seangrov`	dnolen: Ok, ran it on my local copy of master, compiled fine, updated to clojure/clojurescript master, same error. Works if I replace #(... %&) with (fn [& args] ... args). Seems like something has changed around this - is the shorthand no longer allowed?
13:17	aaelony	rurumate: cool. have you tried other options and quartz is what you prefer?
13:17	seangrov`	Not the biggest deal in the worls if not, but worth bringing up
13:18	rurumate	aaelony: no, I had used quartz in java for some time, so I just ported my quartz code to clojure at some point
13:20	cmajor7	aaelony: do you need a full blown scheduling framework? will something like a function do: https://www.refheap.com/18114 ?
13:22	bbloom	dnolen: ok i'm ready to chat now
13:23	dnolen	seangrov`: seems unrelated since I didn't change anything around anonymous fn's would need more information
13:23	seangrov`	Ah, specifically it's the %& symbol, this is enough to cause the error: https://www.refheap.com/8a7fe4ec8af9c4f668f392ae3
13:23	bbloom	dnolen: preserving source tracking data is quite tricky with procedural transforms
13:24	bbloom	dnolen: symbols are atomic, so it's trivial to reuse them, but composites must have the source data copied
13:24	bbloom	dnolen: it's doable to auto-copy the top-level
13:25	aaelony	rurumate: got it. I''m interested in hearing what people think about each sched lib
13:25	bbloom	dnolen: you basically have a fn that calls the multimethod, and the fn just calls with-meta to copy that data across
13:25	bbloom	dnolen: that should cover propagating 90% of the composite data, right?
13:25	bbloom	as long as :line info is "inherited" down the AST, such that un-annotated forms get their parent's source info
13:26	dnolen	bbloom: hmm interesting idea
13:26	aaelony	cmajor7: not sure what "full blown" means for a scheduling lib… I'm looking for an nice idiomatic way to register functions for execution on a schedule, most probably execute on each hour or every h hours
13:26	seangrov`	dnolen: I'll change the syntax for now to test the keyword-related changes
13:27	bbloom	dnolen: ok, so that's step 1 & that should basically prevent the transform from fucking us up
13:27	cmajor7	aaelony: right, so that one function does just that
13:27	dnolen	seangrov`: if you can git bisect that would be helpful - I don't see how keyword changes could have affected this
13:27	aaelony	cmajor7: your refheap looks attractive, that might be enough
13:27	dnolen	seangrov`: or at least write up a ticket if you don't have time for that
13:27	coventry	I'm trying to set up a lein checkouts dependency. I've got a checkouts directory with a symlink a clone of the tools.reader repository, but "lein deps" or "lein classpath" is failing with the complaint that it can't find "artifact org.clojure:tools.reader:jar:0.7.7-SNAPSHOT in clojars". Do I need to do anything else to get lein to recognize the dependency? https://www.refheap.com/18116
13:27	bbloom	dnolen: step 2 is much bigger & we should not tackle this now, but i'll mention it so that you understand where we need to go
13:27	bbloom	dnolen: we need to split analyze into two phases: parse & analyze
13:27	seangrov`	dnolen: It's not the keyword change, this happens on the latest master
13:28	seangrov`	Just as an aside
13:28	bbloom	dnolen: the ANF transform produces normal syntactical forms, b/c that's what the analyzer accepts
13:28	seangrov`	I'll check it out after I test the keyword stuff
13:28	bbloom	dnolen: but the syntactical forms are a human interface. the AST is the machine interface
13:28	aaelony	cmajor7: I suppose the only other nice feature to have would be to be able to easily cancel or change the execution schedule, and perhaps also to check on what is scheduled at a given moment
13:28	bbloom	dnolen: b/c of the way clojure works, parsing and analysis are mutually recursive
13:29	bbloom	dnolen: but you can parse something to "i dunno what to do with this" and then analyze & then keep on parsing
13:29	dnolen	bbloom: ANF won't happen at the analyzer, it will happen in a compiler pass
13:29	bbloom	dnolen: yes, but after you rewrite, you need to re-analyze
13:30	bbloom	dnolen: b/c your analysis is no longer valid
13:30	cmajor7	aaelony: it returns a future, so you can cancel those as you need to
13:30	bbloom	dnolen: you're introducing new local symbols, so the environment has changed
13:30	aaelony	cmajor7: that was my next question. sounds perfect!
13:30	cmajor7	aaelony: I guess changing the execution schedule would be cancel/reschedule
13:30	bbloom	dnolen: but i do things like `(~fn-sym ~@arg-syms)
13:31	bbloom	again, this is step2 stuff we shouldn't be doing now, but ideally we'd do something like this instead:
13:31	bbloom	{:op :invoke :f fn-sym :args arg-syms}
13:32	aaelony	cmajor7: i like that. I'll create a collection for the futures and that should work
13:32	bbloom	dnolen: b/c quasi-quoting implies environment & resolution. that's part of why macros in clj are annoying for cljs
13:33	bbloom	dnolen: there are multiple environments inside the compiler, so it doesn't make sense to quasi-quote in the compiler's runtime environment when we are working with user-code environments
13:33	bbloom	dnolen: so right now you need to (analyze form env) but i'd rather (parse form env) and (analyze ast env)
13:33	seangrov`	dnolen: After change the anonymous fn syntax, code compiles and Zenbox is running fine alongside Rapportive, and the tests pass
13:34	coventry	Ah, I needed to do "lein install" in the checkout dependency directory before it would work.
13:35	bbloom	dnolen: does that make sense?
13:35	futile	Can anyone recommend a certain fuzzy-string-matching library for use in a Clojure project?
13:35	aaelony	cmajor7: I can cancel any future, but how would I cancel the "every" call at some point?
13:36	futile	Also, why do we call them "libraries" instead of "spellbooks"?
13:36	futile	A function is a whole lot more like a spell than a book.
13:36	dnolen	bbloom: it does somewhat, but it's also not an aspect of the compiler I'm concerned about yet :) it's annoying for sure.
13:37	dnolen	bbloom: I'm not going to do full ANF, just enough to make a pluggable pass solve this specific issue via ANF transform
13:37	bbloom	dnolen: yeah, that's why i suggested just doing a no-op pass first
13:37	bbloom	dnolen: so we can see how much that 1) impacts perf and 2) just to prove we can do it
13:37	aaelony	cmajor7: nevermind… getting it now
13:37	dnolen	bbloom: no-op pass is just identity but ok
13:37	cmajor7	aaelony: not sure I understand what you are asking. "every" returns a future, that you can cancel
13:37	bbloom	dnolen: well ok more generally: something that annotates every node with metadata like :was-touched true
13:38	aaelony	cmajor7: understand now.. thanks again
13:38	cmajor7	aaelony: sure
13:38	dnolen	bbloom: we can do this, but I'm really not as concerned about the perf of this as I was before.
13:38	dnolen	bbloom: we already have ad-hoc passes in the compiler
13:38	bbloom	dnolen: ok then
13:38	dnolen	bbloom: it probably makes sense to apply the first pass to the ad-hoc one around fns
13:39	bbloom	dnolen: yeah, the more we can split things up, the better
13:39	bbloom	dnolen: it's ok to have LOTS of passes if each pass is relative cheap
13:39	dnolen	bbloom: yep
13:39	bbloom	the biggest perf issue is to avoid consuming fuckloads of memory, that's what makes gclosure slow
13:39	dnolen	bbloom: I'm shooting for [fn-self-recur-pass anf-let-pass]
13:39	bbloom	they copy stuff left & right. we have a huge leg up having immutable structures!
13:40	bbloom	s/immutable/persistent/
13:40	bbloom	dnolen: i think a vector of passes is a good starting point
13:46	dnolen	seangrov`: excellent, I think I might wait a bit to merge this into master, I'd like to get the ANF thing in, CLJS is taking a big perf hit right now everywhere because we don't have it.
13:47	seangrov`	dnolen: No worries, I have my fixes locally, I'm able to work on problems for the business rather than the runtime for now. Obviously getting it into master will be nice though.
13:48	seangrov`	The ANF transforms do seem like a big effort though.
13:58	tufflax	I'm making a game. And there are a few subsystems in the game. I thought that most of them need to be updated every frame, so I made a protocol called Updatable, with just one function: (update [this]). But now, I need to pass an argument to one of the subsystems update function, and that's not something my design can easily handle. What am I doing wrong. It seems like such a simple thing, but my design can't handle it.
14:01	mlb-	I see many hyphenated names used as variables in Clojure. Taking a hint that this is the general style, why am I having trouble with hyphenated class names? Are there some filename/class name issues to be aware of?
14:01	cmajor7	mlb-: you mean module names?
14:02	tufflax	mlb-: as far as I know, class names are written in Java style camel case.
14:02	tufflax	most of the time
14:02	cmajor7	mlb-: if it is indeed a module name, the name of the files needs to have an underscore instead of a hyphen
14:03	cmajor7	mlb-: a namespace/module can have a hyphen
14:03	cmajor7	mlb-: "your-module" would live in "your_module.clj"
14:03	mlb-	cmajor7: ah, that makes sense. I'd seen examples that followed that rule, but I hadn't seen an explicit rule
14:05	cmajor7	mlb-: some more info on the subject => http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4420944/why-does-clojure-convert-dashes-in-names-to-underscores-in-the-filesystem
14:15	Apage43	cough I just used leiningen to build a Java project that had no clojure in it
14:16	Apage43	i feel a bit weird about that, but man was it easier than the other stuff i had handy
14:23	llasram	Apage43: I've got several small internal projects doing that
14:23	llasram	Side-benefit: it's easy to then write the tests in Clojure
14:23	llasram	And easy to turning it into a Clojure project if you start needing more than boilerplate
14:24	Apage43	ah, yeah. That's pretty fantastic as well.
14:24	Apage43	I just needed to bang out a single java file command line tool as an API example
14:25	Apage43	but it had a bunch of dependencies
14:29	callen	I'm guilty of doing this too.
14:29	callen	Too lazy to use maven myself.
14:31	hyPiRion	me too
14:32	TimMc	That's what lein pom is for. :-P
14:32	callen	TimMc: I do that too.
14:33	callen	but that's my point, everything I do with Java or Clojure is wrapped with Leiningen to varying degrees - usually holistically.
14:35	brianwong	this may be more of a java problem, but i need help with my standalone jar that i created with 'lein uberjar'. When i run the jar on my mac workstation, it runs as expected. I move this jar onto the amazon linux instance and run the jar. I get this NPE. https://www.refheap.com/18117 . Could this be caused by different java versions?
14:36	brianwong	my workstation uses a later version of java than the server.
14:36	zphds	guys, is it ok to do assertions in let forms? as in, see if a var is truthy on something or error out before evaluating the let's body
14:36	callen	brianwong: sure it's not just a null?
14:36	callen	zphds: you can do anything you want in a let form, but try to make it nice.
14:36	zphds	callen: I also just discovered :pre, :post
14:36	zphds	maybe I will use that
14:37	callen	also, I'm not really a fan of "error out" in the sense of an exception
14:37	callen	I prefer to return and chain nils, short-circuiting ala Option/Maybe.
14:37	callen	unless it's truly an exceptional case that merits immediate attention from the programmer.
14:37	TimMc	brianwong: Given that it's occurring in your config ns, it sounds like something is making your code take a different path in the Amazon env.
14:38	brianwong	i thought that once i have an uberjar
14:38	zphds	callen: ah… interesting… coming from a python world, I am used to raise exceptions… and then handle them
14:38	brianwong	that it should be portable and behave the same way on the jvm regardless of host OS
14:38	callen	brianwong: the uberjar doesn't freeze your environment variables or make things that don't exist suddenly exist on your deployment target.
14:38	brianwong	that is why im wondering if it is a JVM version issue
14:38	callen	brianwong: do you understand what environment variables are?
14:39	callen	zphds: avoid it unless it is truly exceptional.
14:39	zphds	callen: yep
14:39	callen	zphds: consider the ease of use on the part of the caller.
14:39	zphds	callen: right…
14:39	callen	I hate hate hate wrapping try/catch around stuff.
14:39	brianwong	i do know what environment variables are. Im not sure why it is relevant at the moment
14:39	callen	brianwong: what TimMc said.
14:40	zphds	callen: haha… I guess it's because try, catches doesn't look good in a lisp'y language.
14:40	Phil_D	Does anyone have insight as to how to implement a "resolve"-like function in ClojureScript? Its absence is making it difficult to create complex and reusable functions.
14:40	callen	zphds: I will throw exceptions for things like configuration variables that should never be null
14:40	TimMc	brianwong: Without seeing your code, I can only guess that it is taking a different execution path because of different data in the environment. (Config files, working dir, etc.)
14:40	llasram	Phil_D: Like resolving in a namespace?
14:41	callen	Phil_D: clojurescript doesn't have vars, you should avoid prolifically abusing that for metaprogramming, especially for code intended to be cross-platform.
14:41	zphds	callen: a.k.a don't use exceptions to dictate program flows.
14:41	callen	zphds: precisely.
14:41	callen	zphds: but I do use it to catch misconfiguration, "zomg the database disappeared!", things like that.
14:42	zphds	right
14:42	callen	things where I want the program to crash in a pretty mess.
14:42	callen	zphds: for the record, I wrote my Python code like that too.
14:42	zphds	:)
14:42	callen	and still do.
14:44	Phil_D	llasram: Yes, like taking a string or keyword, converting it to a symbol, then resolving it like so in Clojure: (resolve (symbol "helloworld")). It makes passing function arguments as keywords easier.
14:44	Phil_D	callen: I see. Yeah, I understand Clojure and ClojureScript are similar, but far different beasts. I'm confused as to how macros work in CLJS, but I may end up taking that route instead of trying to hack my way around resolving symbols.
14:45	callen	Phil_D: dude, do not do that prolifically.
14:45	callen	(resolve (symbol ...)) is extremely bad style.
14:46	callen	I sincerely hope you're not kicking around read-string and eval all over the place too.
14:46	Phil_D	Nooooo no no no, haha.
14:46	callen	I'm unconvinced and regarding you with great suspicion.
14:46	Apage43	dude this isn't ruby
14:47	llasram	Phil_D: callen is overly brash, but I'd argue basically correct. Even in JVM Clojure `resolve` etc are for developer tools, not metaprogramming
14:47	Phil_D	Oh, God. You guys can tell I used to program with Ruby. '''>.<
14:47	llasram	Phil_D: I'd suggest a different approach, where you create a map (as in {}) for mapping from keywords to functions
14:48	llasram	If that's insufficiently dry, you can define a macro which creates the map
14:48	llasram	s,dry,DRY,
14:48	callen	Phil_D: Clojure gives you better, safer tools than this.
14:48	callen	Phil_D: specifically, compile-time (macros) tools that allow you to stop doing silly (and often slow) things at runtime.
14:48	Phil_D	Okay, glad I'm getting my knuckles slapped on this one.
14:49	callen	Phil_D: embrace the fact that Clojure is a language that "executes" in two different phases.
14:49	callen	Phil_D: understand what macro-expansion time means, how it works, how things "work" at that time, and how it can help you better structure your code for runtime.
14:49	callen	we're not saying "go hogwild with macros", just that you have more and better options available to you.
14:49	Phil_D	callen: Awesome, thank you for opening my mind on this. I didn't know the implications until now.
14:49	callen	Phil_D: much of the misdesign of languages like Python and Ruby is that they have only one hammer - mutating state and eval'ing string-ish stuff at runtime.
14:50	callen	Phil_D: with Clojure, code is data and you can work with that data at macro-expansion and run time.
14:50	callen	Phil_D: embrace the parens :)
14:50	callen	Phil_D: thing in terms of structure, not specific names an dstrings.
14:50	callen	and string*
14:50	callen	think*
14:50	rasmusto	callen: {()}
14:50	callen	jesus I can't type.
14:51	Phil_D	Is (pr-str) horrible practice as well? I only use it on the serverside to respond to (csrf protected) AJAX calls from ClojureScript.
14:51	callen	you know what I mean.
14:51	Phil_D	Otherwise my response doesn't read as EDN. That may be something on my end I'm screwing up, though.
14:51	callen	Phil_D: pr-str is...sub-ideal...but not outrageous. I would strongly consider/recommend proper serialization.
14:51	callen	whether that be JSON, EDN, or otherwise.
14:52	TimMc	When you have two hammers, everything looks like...
14:52	llasram	Is there some why of generating EDN other than pr-str?
14:52	llasram	s,why,way,
14:52	llasram	(well, or `pr` etc in general)
14:52	Phil_D	Yeah, is there? I wasn't aware of EDN "serialization". I'm purposely avoiding JSON.
14:53	callen	a lot of people do it that way, but I'm making the point of encouraging a prinicipled decision to use edn, not using pr-str just because it's there.
14:53	callen	I said pr-str wasn't outrageous.
14:53	callen	I'm just worried about abuse of bidirectional read-string/pr-str
14:54	callen	I haven't seen code so I can't get more specific than that, Phil_D's other indiscretions have me on the cautious side :)
14:54	Apage43	combine pr-str with clojure.edn/read-string rather than clojure.core/read-string
14:54	brianwong	callen: i found it was doing (.toLowerCase nil). The weird thing is that it was throwing an NPE only on the amazon platform and not my workstation
14:54	callen	- http://clojure.github.io/clojure/clojure.edn-api.html
14:55	callen	Phil_D: ^^
14:55	callen	safer reader.
14:55	callen	default read-string in Clojure is not safe.
14:55	callen	and not supposed to be.
14:55	Phil_D	Yeah, I've read about that.
14:55	callen	just making it explicit.
14:55	callen	Phil_D: do you have a copy of Joy of Clojure?
14:56	callen	it happens to cover introducing the Lispy-ness of Clojure and macro-expansion time reasonably well.
14:56	Phil_D	Yes! I ordered the eBook. I've read through the first few chapters, but I'm taking it slow because it's a lot to chew on.
14:58	futile	Phil_D: you should take out the "il" from your nick
14:58	futile	shorter is better
14:58	callen	Phil_D: cool. Sounds like you're on the right track. I've done Python and Ruby before (more Python admittedly) and I'm far from the only one in this channel so if you have any questions/concerns or feel like you're going through an anti-pattern, ask in here.
14:59	futile	callen: what better way to persist data than printing pr-str to a file and reading it back with read-str?
14:59	Phil_D	callen: Haha, I think I will do that. Thanks for your advice! I'm really excited to fully grasp the language.
15:02	futile	Is there a function that prints out its single arg and returns it?
15:03	futile	by prints out I mean using (prn)
15:03	futile	callen: you would know this one
15:04	futile	Basically a shortcut for: &&(second ((juxt prn identity) 3))
15:04	futile	clojurebot: what's your syntax again?
15:04	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
15:04	futile	:/
15:04	futile	,(second ((juxt prn identity) 3))
15:04	clojurebot	3\n3
15:06	xeqi	,(#(doto % prn) 3)
15:06	clojurebot	3\n3
15:06	futile	ah yes!
15:06	futile	Still it'd be nice to have: (prn-ret 3)
15:06	futile	or something
15:06	futile	Guess I can make one.
15:07	technomancy	futile: doto
15:07	technomancy	but it's not a function
15:07	technomancy	oh
15:07	technomancy	oops
15:07	futile	:)
15:07	callen	futile: a database?
15:08	futile	callen: WAT
15:08	callen	"what better way to persist data than printing pr-str to a file and reading it back with read-str?" - a database.
15:08	futile	callen: i cant agree
15:08	futile	pr-str and read-str are perfect for this
15:09	callen	"perfect"
15:09	futile	thanks
15:09	futile	i think so too
15:09	callen	those were scare quotes.
15:10	futile	so how are things
15:10	futile	Is it true JSON can't contain literal newlines?
15:10	callen	"can't"
15:11	asteve	use vs. require, which is better? I feel that require is more descriptive which should cause less confusion and ultimately less bugs
15:11	futile	this makes my protocol way easier. no longer need a length prefix, just consider \n as msg delims
15:11	technomancy	asteve: require
15:11	futile	asteve: require with :as
15:11	futile	I've seen gigantic (ns) blocks because they use :refer instead of :as
15:12	futile	does not need to be so
15:12	callen	asteve: use require.
15:13	asteve	and if I want to require a group of files under the same namespace should I do multiple [com.package.module :as module] or is there a better way?
15:13	callen	^^ I am delighting in the ambiguity of that in response to a question that was worded "use vs. require"
15:13	callen	asteve: a group of files under the same namespace? gather them in a core namespace or something.
15:13	callen	asteve: then :as the core
15:15	callen	asteve: I don't know if you noticed, but this is a common pattern in libraries. The core.clj will be used to gather things from all the other modules.
15:15	callen	so that users can just require the core.
15:15	asteve	ah
15:15	TimMc	futile: I've seen amalloy use a macro called "?" (or "spy"?) that prints the form, then the value, then returns the value.
15:15	technomancy	don't call it core though
15:15	technomancy	you can come up with a better name
15:16	technomancy	core is clojurese for "I can't think of a good name right now sorry"
15:16	callen	bulwark.core => bulwark.defense mayhaps?
15:16	futile	technomancy: i think of core as "hey everyone start your diggin here"
15:16	callen	^^ me too, actually.
15:16	TimMc	[clj-thing.core "0.0.1-SNAPSHOT"]
15:16	futile	which is super helpful.
15:16	technomancy	futile: I like having internal stuff nested a layer deeper
15:16	futile	TimMc: hmm interesting
15:16	callen	I use core as a signal that it's a "site-map" for the library.
15:16	ro_st	core is the index.html of the clojure codebase :-)
15:16	technomancy	slam.hound / slam.hound.asplode / slam.hound.stitch
15:17	callen	futile: he's making fun of it, not suggesting it.
15:17	futile	technomancy: oh yeah i never think of "core" as internal. im talking about user-facing APIs. sure, the name is backwards for that purpose, but its convention now
15:17	TimMc	futile: I read that as "I was too lazy to start this properly and also too lazy to finish it."
15:17	callen	well now I know what bulwark 0.0.4 will be.
15:17	callen	:P
15:17	futile	TimMc: well if there are others who used the same (legit) line of reasoning as me, that invalidates your way of reading it.
15:18	technomancy	futile: I mean you can tell where to start digging because everything else is a layer deeper
15:18	futile	and you cant safely assume that anymore
15:18	futile	technomancy: oh
15:18	TimMc	futile: If it's an app, foo.main is fine.
15:19	technomancy	yeah, main means "CLI entry point" to me
15:19	TimMc	futile: My "lazy" comment refers to the combination of clj-*, core, 0.0.1, and SNAPSHOT.
15:20	ztellman	I made my first clj-* library recently, made me feel a bit dirty
15:20	callen	TimMc: don't forget the real coup de grace - undeployed to clojars yet has a Leiningen vector in the README.
15:20	callen	ztellman: I can name things. It's the only hard thing in Computer Science I'm good at.
15:20	callen	let me help you!
15:21	TimMc	ztellman: clj-tuple?
15:21	ro_st	ztellman: you write so many libraries i'm sure we can forgive you. just this once.
15:21	callen	TimMc: which is a sweet library.
15:21	ztellman	callen: it's a library that provides a clojure-specific tuple implementation, go
15:21	ro_st	-hides clj-madmimi-
15:21	TimMc	ztellman: Name it after a legume genus, based on tuples looking like "peas in a pod".
15:21	ztellman	it was either that or just "tuple", which has like 100 other entries in github
15:22	ztellman	TimMc: why didn't I think of that
15:22	callen	ztellman: yeah I know the library, I'm digging into the curry-howard isomorphism of tuples and logic to figure out a clever name.
15:22	TimMc	It's not too late!
15:22	callen	TimMc: whoa that's pretty good.
15:23	TimMc	Hmmm... carob is a legume, and alo very tasty.
15:23	callen	Pisum sativum...
15:23	TimMc	(I discovered a jar of carob pods in the kitchen a couple weeks ago and have been working my way through them.)
15:23	ztellman	I dunno, my rationale is that if something does a thing, and there's more or less only one way to do it, a more straightforward library name is ok
15:23	callen	ztellman: French name for snap peas and snow peas is "mangetout"
15:24	TimMc	Ooh, fancy.
15:24	ztellman	that sounds like someone who bets on mangy horses
15:24	ztellman	perfect
15:24	callen	LOL
15:24	callen	win.
15:24	TimMc	haha
15:24	TimMc	callen: Yeah, "Pisum" would be a weird name.
15:25	callen	TimMc: sadly all peas are the same species, snow/snap/etc are just variants, so there's not a lot of naming variety.
15:25	callen	but the French saved the day.
15:26	ystael	but 'mangetout' refers to the fact that you eat the pod, right? is it better metaphorically to say the library does eat the pod (the tuple) or doesn't?
15:26	TimMc	I don't even know what language this is, but https://gn.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumanda sounds pretty.
15:26	TimMc	That was a language interwiki link.
15:26	callen	TimMc: Guarani
15:26	Phil_D	This is a newbie question, but I'm trying to wrap my head around data binding in ClojureScript. I've done it successfully with atoms and the 'add-watch' function, but I'm forced to define the atom then pass it to a function. Is there a way to "create" the atom within the function? braces for callen's wrath on my indoctrinated OO mind
15:27	callen	I'm not that fearsome am I?
15:27	bbloom	callen: i've told you before, your behavior influences the behavior of others
15:28	bbloom	for every Phil_D who is willing to speak up, there are a countless others who are afraid to speak
15:28	ro_st	the only stupid question is the one you don't ask.
15:28	llasram	Phil_D: Can you give a more full example?
15:28	bbloom	Phil_D: in my experience, add-watch is only really useful for quick debugging of atoms. it's not a great foundation to build a "data binding" system on
15:30	callen	bbloom: your proclivity for plonking disqualifies the persuasion. :)
15:31	Phil_D	llasram: Basically I watch for the 'input' event from an HTML textarea that calls reset! on an atom bound to a DOM node (a </p> element).
15:31	Phil_D	bbloom: Gotcha. What would you recommend? It 'works', but it's hardly idiomatic.
15:32	bbloom	Phil_D: there are a number of approaches out there, but it's a bit of an open research program to do idiomatic/functional UI stuff
15:32	bbloom	Phil_D: what approach you choose will depend on the scale of the problem you're trying to solve. what are you aiming for?
15:32	callen	Phil_D: functional reactive programming is one avenue of exploration. There are alternatives.
15:33	llasram	Oh, I missed the ClojureScript part this time... I will defer entirely to bbloom
15:33	ro_st	Phil_D: http://keminglabs.com/blog/cljs-app-designs/ might be of interest to you
15:33	clojurebot	Huh?
15:34	bbloom	Phil_D: dnolen has been blogging a bit about using core.async for UI work, which is very promising. check out this post: http://swannodette.github.io/2013/08/17/comparative/
15:34	bbloom	Phil_D: his blog also has some simpler examples if you go back a few articles in the archives
15:35	bbloom	Phil_D: there are are also a number of bridges to existing javascript frameworks, such as angular & other popular ones
15:35	Phil_D	Thanks bbloom and ro_st! I'll definitely check this stuff out.
15:35	ro_st	great. have fun with it!
15:35	bbloom	Phil_D: and there are a few more experimental / out-there explorations, such as pedestal
15:36	dnolen	Phil_D: watch out core.async is addictive. I got a couple more things in the pipeline but it needs Hammock Time as they say round these parts.
15:37	xeqi	I'm interested in hearing about any good solutions. Been trying the core.async go/loop with atoms instead of local state and it could be useful there
15:37	dnolen	xeqi: what leverage are you getting out of atoms? watches?
15:38	xeqi	dnolen: debugging mostly
15:38	ro_st	dnolen, it's still early days for me with async. i saw tbaldridge tweet about how channels are for coordination, not for state. is what you're doing in accordance with his statement, or in violation of it?
15:39	bbloom	xeqi: my solution has been to use so few atoms/refs/etc that i can just debug with reductions instead of add-watch :-)
15:39	Phil_D	dnolen: Definitely going to check this out then.
15:39	xeqi	attempting experimentation, I don't have a good feel for the split between what could be an external manipulatable element and internal state
15:39	bbloom	ro_st: keeping "state" in the loop isn't that big a deal as long as you only have one loop/state/brain/whatever per logical unit of state (ie a stateful widget)
15:39	xeqi	take your highlight / selector examples. The selector has to duplicate the highlighted state. I'm not sure how much I like that vs an atom
15:39	dnolen	ro_st: channels are for coordination, and no you should put queryable state into a go/loop
15:40	bbloom	i think "queryable" is the operative word
15:40	bbloom	go-loops give you encapsulation
15:40	bja	go-loops are the addictive part
15:40	dnolen	ro_st: I meant "no you should not put queryable state in a go/loop"
15:40	Phil_D	bbloom: I was using purnam, which plays really nicely with Angular.js. This however was when I was just starting, so I realized I was just writing fancy-looking JavaScript, not embracing Clojure philosophy.
15:40	futile	Is it really true that JSON can't contain newline literals within strings?
15:40	dnolen	xeqi: the duplication is not a problem
15:41	dnolen	xeqi: you think those two components are related but they are not.
15:41	dnolen	xeqi: you can use one without the other, as it should be
15:41	ro_st	bbloom, dnolen, thanks
15:41	dnolen	xeqi: and you can test them insolation, as it should be
15:42	dnolen	ro_st: however it's fine to push out the state changes so people can listen to them, that's the whole point.
15:43	dnolen	ro_st: one thing I'm struggling with is how this pattern maps to MVC, where multiple components need to listen on some collection of data - I have some ideas, but still looking for cleanest manifestation.
15:43	ro_st	so what bhauman was doing with his dotsters game, there's no actual state in an atom, there. it's all either in channels or in the dom, i guess.
15:44	dnolen	ro_st: I don't think he ever checked the state of the dom? so all in channel.
15:44	dnolen	ro_st: or rather in the flow of the system.
15:45	ro_st	well, i mean it's in the dom until you gesture and then it's back in channel
15:45	dnolen	ro_st: yes, but his code is nearly abstracted away from event source, this is really important
15:46	dnolen	ro_st: so anything could generate those events, they could even come from a sequence that you spool - again testing.
15:46	xeqi	dnolen: ack, I meant I was concerned about the duplicated logic in state tracking. But I agree on the composability benefits.
15:47	ro_st	gotcha. yeah, it's a wonderful example. i often go and read through it just to stir up the pot.
15:47	dnolen	xeqi: yes, this is a non-concern
15:48	dnolen	xeqi: start thinking of your program as mini distributed network of nodes and these sorts idea of "duplication" become entirely irrelevant
15:48	futile	Does anyone use validations libs in Clojure?
15:49	futile	I've just been using functions that return nil or a string (or seq of strings depending on the thing being validated), which works fine with cond and such.
15:49	ro_st	dnolen: it seems like core.async helps us to apply the lessons from the reactivemanifesto.org stuff to the stateful client
15:49	dnolen	ro_st: yep, http://www.coursera.org/course/reactive
15:49	ro_st	i'm loving the idea that what we use for coordination and encapsulation in the large, between servers and processes, can be a big simplifying force in the small, in-process
15:50	dnolen	ro_st: not surprising that the suggested readings are SICP and CTMCP
15:50	ro_st	i'm signed up :-) going to do my homework in clojure though
15:50	ro_st	yeah
15:50	`cbp	oh nice link dnolen ill sign up for that
15:50	dnolen	ro_st: agreed, it's very liberating, but it doesn't mean some biases about program organization have to be unlearned.
15:50	dnolen	s/doesn't/does
15:51	ro_st	https://github.com/pedestal/pedestal/tree/with-core-async
15:51	`cbp	aw i need a scala book now though
15:51	ro_st	brenton ashworth has been tackling the dataflow problem with core.asyc
15:52	ro_st	dnolen: yeah. in some ways, we're using tried and true techniques that are decades old, and in other ways, we're on the very forefront of system design and engineering
15:52	ro_st	great time to be a developer!
15:54	squidz	ro_st: what kind of changes are expected for pedastal together with core.async?
15:54	xeqi	dnolen: hmm, I think I might have the wrong granularity for my messages in my toy examples. I see in your example's the selector doesn't care about the original input, just the "state update" message from the highlighter
15:55	xeqi	I have a feeling this would work out better, time more exploration later
15:55	bja	I I found tailrecursion/javelin fascinating wrt reactive programming
15:56	dnolen	xeqi: yep, easy bit to miss
15:56	TimMc	&(format "lib-%04d" (rand-int 1e4))
15:56	lazybot	⇒ "lib-6927"
15:56	ro_st	squidz: i can't remember, i'm afraid. brenton does talk about it a bit in http://thinkrelevance.com/blog/2013/08/13/brenton-ashworth-podcast-episode-037
15:57	ro_st	i remember that derives were going to expose channels somehow
15:57	squidz	yeah I heard that podcast, that's why i'm interested but I guess the plans are under wraps for now. Can't wait to hear what they come up with though
15:58	ro_st	not under wraps, just not nicely documented somewhere :-) you can read through the commits in the branch here https://github.com/pedestal/pedestal/tree/with-core-async
15:58	ro_st	good luck, though. quite a lot going on there!
15:59	ro_st	i know that tim ewald has had success rewiring the interceptor stuff in services with core.async. pausing and resuming http requests from different threads of control is a great fit for CSP
16:01	squidz	cool thanks ill take a look
16:25	brianwong	i am writing a command line tool in clojure. some of the functions call (System/exit 1) in specific situations. How do I test for these situations? `lein test` considers these failures when in fact i want to verify them.
16:26	technomancy	brianwong: you can't do anything about System/exit calls
16:26	ro_st	(not (is …)) -shoots from the hip-
16:26	ro_st	-grin-
16:26	technomancy	you need to wrap it in a clojure function and call with-redefs on that
16:26	SegFaultAX	Well you could wrap System/exit in your own fucntion
16:26	SegFaultAX	Yea.
16:27	SegFaultAX	Essentially you need to mock out the exit call.
16:27	technomancy	clojure really needs an exit function so there's a standard way to do that
16:27	brianwong	so i can mock out System/exit in my deftest?
16:27	brianwong	and just check for whatever my mock returns?
16:28	technomancy	brianwong: no, you have to replace a clojure function that wraps System/exit
16:28	technomancy	you can't replace Java methods =(
16:28	brianwong	derp
16:28	brianwong	i see
16:28	brianwong	so in my app code i replace all system exits with a function that just wraps it
16:28	brianwong	then mock that new function in my deftests
16:28	brianwong	gotcha
16:29	technomancy	FSVO "mock"
16:29	brianwong	FSVO?
16:29	Phil_D	dnolen: Oh no. I hope I sleep tonight. Core.async has sucked me in for good.
16:29	nDuff	"for some value of"
16:29	technomancy	I don't like to use the term because some TDD people get annoyed if you're not using their particular definition
16:29	brianwong	ok with-redefs
16:29	brianwong	ill try that
16:30	brianwong	thanks for the advice
16:30	technomancy	np
16:33	glosoli	How could one jump into interop method source code ?
16:33	technomancy	glosoli: I think you have to be using ritz for that
16:33	glosoli	technomancy: Hm nice, you answered two questions, (was gonna ask another, no need anymore)
16:34	SegFaultAX	technomancy: Meh, it's a mock. Screw TDD evangelicals.
16:34	technomancy	SegFaultAX: I think with-redefs is more general, but in this case it's probably a mock
16:36	glosoli	Hmm is there some way to destroy the binding? i.e. I have server function which executes http kit to run, and later I want to destroy it without restarting nrepl ?
16:37	SegFaultAX	technomancy: Agreed. with-redefs alone is much more powerful. But the pattern brianwong is implementing with it is mocky.
16:39	technomancy	glosoli: with jetty you just call .stop on the return value of run-jetty
16:39	technomancy	no idea about http-kit
16:58	TimMc	Well, this is infuriating. tools.namespace will give you a list of namespace names for a directory, or it will give you a list of ns declaration blocks from namespaces therein, but it doesn't provide any mechanism for converting between the two.
17:00	TimMc	If you give it a file, it will give you the ns-decl... but it won't take ns symbol -> File.
17:00	TimMc	And if you give it an ns-decl, it won't tell you what the namespace symbol is!
17:11	futile	Dear friends, why are we fighting amongst ourselves? Don't you see, this is what they want? Let us not give in to their dastardly plans, let us remember we're on the same team, Team Clojuriana!
17:13	technomancy	I thought we were on Team Lisp?
17:13	technomancy	or possibly Team FP
17:14	joegallo	oh god, it's still here
17:14	futile	No, it's Team Clojuriana.
17:15	futile	technomancy: you can be VP of Marketing, that last guy had an existential accident.
17:16	technomancy	I think you have to use Windows to be VP of Marketing
17:16	futile	(I mean he no longer exists now. Wiped from history. Was never born. What, who? I don't know who you're talking about.)
17:18	futile	technomancy: that's just an urban legend
17:20	SegFaultAX	The number of dynamic vars in this code is too damn high! :(
17:23	ozzloy	rent is too damn high!
17:23	glosoli	yeah ;/
17:23	ozzloy	i'm on team edward, myself
17:24	ozzloy	on a more serious note, i think i'm more on team continuous unit testing than i am on team lisp or fp
17:26	SegFaultAX	ozzloy: You just named three entirely orthogonal things.
17:26	ozzloy	yes
17:27	ozzloy	agreed
17:27	SegFaultAX	So, why not all three?
17:27	coventry	SegFaultAX: You've gotta focus to succeed. :-)
17:27	ozzloy	oh, i'm in favor of continuous unit testing in FP style lisp
17:27	SegFaultAX	ozzloy: There you go. ;)
17:27	ozzloy	but of the three, i think the first is most important
17:28	ozzloy	perhaps that was a better way to express it?
17:29	SegFaultAX	ozzloy: As I said, they're orthogonal concerns.
17:29	justin_smith	team tastes great vs. team edward, winner takes on team sparkle motion
17:29	SegFaultAX	Code can be more or less functional, but it can't be more or less functional /as a function of how unit tested it is/
17:29	Raynes	ozzloy: Team Damon.
17:31	ozzloy	SegFaultAX, we're in agreement on that
17:31	ozzloy	Raynes, matt damon?
17:31	Raynes	ozzloy: The Vampire Diaries.
17:32	seangrov`	,(let [wrapper #(apply identity %&)] (wrapper [1 2 3]))
17:32	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
17:32	ozzloy	oh... uh... i don't actually know more than "team edward" is a thing i heard somewhere and it has to do with vampires and werewolves
17:32	futile	,(third [1 2 3])
17:32	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: third in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
17:32	futile	pfft
17:33	futile	,(let [[_ _ x] [1 2 3]] x)
17:33	clojurebot	3
17:33	futile	wooo
17:33	s4muel	,(doc nth)
17:33	clojurebot	"([coll index] [coll index not-found]); Returns the value at the index. get returns nil if index out of bounds, nth throws an exception unless not-found is supplied. nth also works for strings, Java arrays, regex Matchers and Lists, and, in O(n) time, for sequences."
17:33	SegFaultAX	I also thought Matt Damon.
17:34	s4muel	also team Raynes, I discovered laser while trying to do... well, the exact same thing laser does with hickory zippers, thankee for saving me a boatload of time
17:34	futile	s4muel: that takes too many args
17:34	futile	(Can someone please explain the latest http://buttersafe.com/ ?)
17:34	seangrov`	No one must be using anon fn shorthand with %& in clojurescript, it seems like it's been broken for awhile
17:34	Raynes	s4muel: Sent gifts to Los Angeles.
17:34	Raynes	send*
17:35	TimMc	futile: (def third #(`[~@%](+()())))
17:35	TimMc	&(#(`[~@%](+()())) [:a :b :c :d :e])
17:35	lazybot	⇒ :c
17:36	SegFaultAX	TimMc: Swearjure?
17:36	futile	TimMc: noooooo!!!!!!
17:36	TimMc	What else? :-D
17:36	futile	"whyyyyy!!!!!????"
17:36	futile	SegFaultAX: no its just ascii art
17:36	futile	btw i found a great ascii art bed: "hmmm"
17:37	ozzloy	futile, the two coins decided to have same location in relation to each other. coincide sounds like suicide. one jumped off the table, so the other had to too
17:37	SegFaultAX	futile: http://hypirion.com/musings/swearjure
17:37	ozzloy	that's the joke. -mcbain
17:37	coventry	TimMc: Where do you come up with this stuff? I'm still not sure about all the details of your "out of order" example from yesterday. How come you can put the first "do" where you do?
17:37	ozzloy	although from the drawings, it looks like they weren't actually coincident during this event
17:38	futile	ozzloy: oh. thanks.
17:38	SegFaultAX	coventry: That's an easy one. They can get far more complex.
17:38	futile	well i think ive done enough to bring this channel off topic, time to work again
17:39	ozzloy	futile, "you suck, mcbain!"
17:39	futile	ozzloy: im just disappointed. all the other buttersafes were funny.
17:39	futile	ozzloy: but its not your fault. you're just the messager
17:40	ozzloy	at least i messaged you well!
17:40	TimMc	coventry: The "do" thing actually exploits a Clojure bug, and isn't Swearjure.
17:40	futile	ozzloy: well except for that one lost packet
17:41	futile	(of ketchup?)
17:41	futile	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: of in this context
17:41	futile	what the hell have you guys done to me >:\|
17:41	ozzloy	is swearjure still going on?
17:41	TimMc	coventry: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1184 and then I rely on hash order to make the reader see the 'do as the first item.
17:41	TimMc	ozzloy: Not actively, I think.
17:42	coventry	TimMc: Thanks.
17:42	TimMc	coventry: All those spurious keywords in there are to get the hashes to come out right. I did it by hand, and probably never again. :-P
17:43	coventry	TimMc: Yeah, I figured out the role of the keywords.
17:44	TimMc	&'#{(println "of") do (do :z/h283r (println "order")) (do :b121 (println "out"))} ;; here is what the reader sees
17:44	lazybot	⇒ #{do (do :b121 (println "out")) (println "of") (do :z/h283r (println "order"))}
17:45	TimMc	Theoretically, one could write a program to generate these programs by balancing the hashes correctly.
17:46	coventry	"You can write brainfuck in any language."
17:47	coventry	Didn't know that even with a quote, the order of entries in a set could change. Hmm.
17:48	TimMc	They don't actually change.
17:50	TimMc	Sets don't really have an order, but they need to serialize and deserialize in some (arbitrary) order. The reader doesn't care what order the items are in when it constructs the set, so #{1 2 3} and #{3 2 1} are the same.
17:51	TimMc	However, when you ask for (first some-set), the set has to pick something. That's what the compiler is asking for when it special-cases 'do, and if you arrange the contents of the set correctly, 'do will be picked as the first element.
17:51	coventry	Oh, yeah, I meant in the reader representation. I have been thinking about things in terms of the reader representation, recently.
17:52	TimMc	I don't know if that example will work on different JVMs or Clojure versions, since the set's seq output might be different.
17:53	coventry	I'm interested in implementing a heuristic for mapping the (macroexpand)ed form back to the source form. I don't think this issue messes with my heuristic, though.
17:56	Bronsa	seangrove: what's broken with cljs' %&?
17:56	TimMc	coventry: Well, the reader should attach :line metadata, and I think there's :col support coming soon.
17:57	Bronsa	TimMc: tools.reader already attaches :column and I believe LispReader.java too?
17:57	coventry	TimMc: Fortunately, Bronsa's tools.reader has already implemented column information.
17:58	coventry	(Oh, well, I needed to use tools.reader for other reasons, anyway.)
17:58	Bronsa	yes, LispReader.java does too, tools.reader just attaches the info in more places
17:59	seangrov`	Bronsa: Just finished doing a git bisect, one second...
18:00	coventry	Bronsa: I have a patch for changing the behavior of tools.reader/{dispatch-,}macros. I will wait and see whether it gives me everything I need before submitting a pull request, though.
18:00	Bronsa	seangrov` are you sure you upgraded tools.reader to 0.7.6? there was a bug in that
18:01	seangrov`	Bronsa: This is working off of clojurescript master
18:01	seangrov`	I'll check what version it's using
18:01	Bronsa	coventry: sure, just keep in mind that tools.reader is a clojure contrib project, this means that (unfortunately) I can't accept pull requests, only patches from registerd contributors
18:01	Bronsa	seangrov` right, bit if you're running clojurescript from script/repljs you need to ensure you grabbed the last tools.reader from script/bootstrap
18:02	seangrov`	Bronsa: re-running script/bootstrap
18:02	Bronsa	but*
18:02	seangrov`	Would be an poor use of time on my part if that turns out to be it
18:02	seangrov`	Still, hope that is it ;)
18:03	coventry	Bronsa: Oh, that's interesting. Would that mean I have to get a registered contributor to vet a patch? (Worst case, I can probably just work with my patched library.)
18:03	Bronsa	coventry: yeah
18:03	Bronsa	I'm sorry :(
18:03	seangrov`	Bronsa: Seems like the same error
18:04	coventry	Bronsa: No, not a real problem. FWIW, the current patch moves the current tools.reader/{dispatch-,}macros to macros* and dispatch-macros*, and makes macros and dispatch-macros dynamic defs referring to them. It also makes tools.reader/wrapping-reader a public function. Does that sound workable?
18:04	seangrov`	Bronsa: Mind applying a test and running the test suite?
18:04	Bronsa	seangrov` sure
18:07	Bronsa	coventry: sure, I can do that myself if you really need it, but what's the rationale of renaming macros to macros*? We can just make macros :dynamic
18:08	coventry	Bronsa: That allows me to do things like this: https://www.refheap.com/18121
18:09	Bronsa	coventry: I'll make wrapping reader public right now, still have to think about making {dispatch-}macros :dynamic, I have to find a good use case (as stuartsierra and tbaldridge mentioned some day ago, we don't really want to make the read-table extensible)
18:09	seangrov`	Bronsa: https://gist.github.com/sgrove/6371745
18:09	seangrov`	It literally seems to be the %& causing the problem
18:10	seangrov`	Bronsa: The actualy stack trace https://www.refheap.com/45fd544bac82e81745a19fad5
18:11	Bronsa	mmh
18:11	Bronsa	user=> (read-string "#(apply identity %&)")
18:11	Bronsa	(fn* [& rest__1632#] (apply identity rest__1632#))
18:11	Bronsa	looks all right to me
18:11	Bronsa	(this is tools.reader)
18:11	seangrov`	Yeah, works in the repl
18:11	seangrov`	Somehow it chokes when running the test
18:12	Bronsa	seangrov` last thing before I try to check it out any better, are you sure you don't have tools-reader-0.7.5.jar in lib/ ?
18:12	seangrov`	Let me doubly-verify that I'm running 0.7.6
18:12	seangrov`	I have it there next to tools-reader-0.7.6
18:12	Bronsa	that should be it
18:12	Bronsa	try removing it and re run the tests
18:13	seangrov`	Yeah, that seems to be it
18:13	Bronsa	(and this is why I'd like to see clojurescript deps managed by leiningen)
18:13	seangrov`	So I should blow away lib/ every time I run script/bootstrap?
18:13	Bronsa	looks like it doesn't do any cleanup
18:14	Bronsa	seangrov` I'm happy it wasn't a bug though, you had me panicking a bit :P
18:14	seangrov`	Yeah, all things considered, that is a better outcome
18:14	seangrov`	Still, frustrating to spend 30min on it
18:16	Bronsa	seangrov` next time there's a problem that might be caused by the reader, ping me and I'll try to help
18:17	dnolen	seangrov`: Bronsa: if somebody wants to give me a patch adding project.clj for development use I'll take it.
18:18	Bronsa	dnolen: will do
18:19	Bronsa	(hoping that all the dependencies can be found in maven)
18:23	dnolen	Bronsa: wasn't true in the past since we didn't package everything, we do now
18:35	Bronsa	dnolen: is there a reason why pom.xml isn't fetching the last available com.google.javascript/closure-compiler or it just didn't get updated?
18:36	`cbp	yogthos: grats! I'll buy your book asap :D
18:36	dnolen	Bronsa: we don't like doing that, we try make sure everything works together at a specific revision
18:36	yogthos	`cbp: hey thanks :)
18:36	yogthos	`cbp: let me know what you think
18:36	`cbp	sure thing
18:37	Bronsa	dnolen: I wasn't saying "why it doesn't automatically fetch the last version" rather "why did't it get updated to the lastest version"
18:37	Bronsa	didn't*
18:37	dnolen	Bronsa: it was the latest version whenever we decided to bump it.
18:37	Bronsa	ok.
18:38	callen	I am having a dumb with Compojure - https://www.refheap.com/18125 - any advice for getting at what I want?
18:40	pbostrom	callen: get rid of the trailing slash?
18:40	callen	what? that's never broken it before.
18:40	pbostrom	just guessing
18:41	callen	the URL in the link (href) has a trailing slash.
18:41	callen	I'll try it anyway, but :\|
18:42	amalloy	callen: i'd say check what params is in the request "around" this one; it doesn't seem likely that using context is relevant
18:42	callen	amalloy: I am dumping params in all the handlers.
18:42	callen	I just bumped into something else that I think is promising though.
18:43	callen	hrm, no. boned.
18:45	callen	do url parameters not get merged into params or what?
18:46	alexbaranosky_	I want to access a package level variable on a Java object. What is the best way to do this?
18:49	cored	hi
18:49	cored	is there something equivalent to Scala School for Clojure?
18:50	justin_smith	cored: 4clojure has some similar stuff
18:50	justin_smith	with an interactive interface more question / find answer oriented
18:50	cored	justin_smith: talking about this http://twitter.github.io/scala_school/
18:50	callen	I don't think it's nearly as general.
18:51	callen	cored: perhaps one of the various clojure koan projects?
18:51	cored	Scala School looks more like some sort of specific overview for the language
18:51	justin_smith	cored: I know what you meant, just saying that individual problems on 4clojure have similar contents to the examples in scala school
18:51	coventry	The early parts of Joy of Clojure or Programming Clojure give such an overview.
18:51	alexbaranosky_	anyone know how to access package level fields on java objects from Clojure?
18:52	cored	justin_smith: I see
18:52	cored	justin_smith: will try to check 4clojure and follow along with Scala School content
18:52	callen	alexbaranosky_: what does package level mean? Are you referring to restricted access?
18:52	callen	like, "this field is private to the package" ?
18:52	cored	justin_smith: want to learn both things to compare
18:52	justin_smith	cored: for example https://www.4clojure.com/problem/1
18:53	justin_smith	mostly that just has some intro info, and then you try to apply it
18:53	justin_smith	then it leads you to the next one etc.
18:53	callen	justin_smith: it doesn't serve the same need.
18:53	coventry	justin_smith: I wouldn't want to work through 4clojure without the kind of overview cored is asking for.
18:53	callen	I'm with coventry, Scala School gives a nice overview.
18:53	callen	the Clojure Koan projects I've seen are much closer to that than 4clojure.
18:54	callen	4clojure is puzzle grinding and "how can I abuse Seqs?"
18:55	ambrosebs	core.typed is "production ready" https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/U_aA_Ce3qWg
18:55	cored	agree with both of you
18:55	cored	tried first problem and failed :-P
18:55	callen	alexbaranosky_: I can potentially help you, but I need an answer first. If it's what I think it is, you can use reflection to bypass.
18:55	coventry	4clojure is great for someone coming from an imperative programming background who wants to learn fp. (Like me. I'm about halfway through it.)
18:55	callen	cored: you're supposed to fail.
18:55	cored	maybe it can be a good idea to create a Clojure School same thing as in Scala School but translate it to Clojure
18:55	callen	cored: you don't pick up a guitar and start hammering out licks.
18:55	cored	callen: yes, sure :-)
18:55	muhoo	callen: speak for yourself :-)
18:55	callen	cored: creating a Clojure School equivalent to Scala School is already on my to-do list, thanks for bringing to my attention.
18:55	brehaut	ambrosebs: nice!
18:56	callen	muhoo: blah blah. show off.
18:56	callen	muhoo: farthest I got was grab-bag.
18:56	ambrosebs	brehaut: :)
18:56	callen	ambrosebs: really? how fast is the type-checker?
18:56	muhoo	callen: no, i mean guitar. musical instruments are a natural for me. clojure, i have to work hard at.
18:56	ambrosebs	callen: slow.
18:56	cored	callen: I'm planning to fork that project and just change everything to match Clojure's :-P
18:56	callen	ambrosebs: any particular plan of attack for addressing that?
18:57	callen	cored: uh...it'd be best if somebody that knew Clojure did that.
18:57	coventry	cored: Those books I mentioned will give you a running start, though.
18:57	callen	I don't know about "cloning" either. Clojure is different and merits a somewhat differently structured overview.
18:58	ambrosebs	callen: lots of caching? :)
18:58	cored	coventry: I see
18:58	callen	ambrosebs: :\|
18:58	ambrosebs	callen: but it's certainly a priority for the next reelases
18:58	cored	callen: got it
18:58	callen	ambrosebs: is there anything to be learned here from say - GHC?
18:58	cored	will start checking Scala School until I get the book
18:58	callen	cored: wat
18:59	cored	callen: I want to check both languages, out of curiosity, I'm a Ruby developer ;-)
18:59	ambrosebs	callen: there's still some Typed Racket optimisations that I haven't stolen yet. Plus I'm sure some of my code is just really slow. I haven't put a large effort into speeding it up.
18:59	ambrosebs	just a minor effort.
18:59	callen	cored: well, I'll put it this way. You'll find a lot more people moving from Scala to Clojure than vice versa. I'll leave my own experiences out of it.
19:00	callen	ambrosebs: hum. I hope you like rewrites :)
19:00	cored	callen: and why is that?
19:00	callen	ambrosebs: excellent work all in all :)
19:00	callen	cored: lots of reasons, but sbt is a good place to start.
19:00	clojurebot	Alles klar
19:00	cored	callen: I notice something in #scala at least, there's less people there than in here
19:00	ambrosebs	callen: hehe you get used it :) thanks!
19:00	callen	cored: that might be a demographic thing, I wouldn't rely on that too much.
19:00	callen	but it might be indicative :)
19:00	callen	I think Scala is - for now - more popular in the "enterprise"
19:01	callen	but Clojure is eating up marketshare from the "bottom up" from startups, OSS, and SMBs.
19:01	cored	callen: would like to know what is it that make it so
19:01	justin_smith	what I would avoid is a language that mostly gathers around AIM
19:01	callen	cored: frankly, a smaller percentage of Scala users are active and doing any OSS.
19:01	cored	callen: where I live there's just one company using Scala that I know of, none is using Clojure
19:01	callen	right, like I said, Scala is currently more popular in the "enterprise"
19:01	callen	but far fewer people in Scala are writing code at home, OSS, etc.
19:01	cored	justin_smith: AIM?
19:02	callen	so the tools are kinda languishing without Typesafe to shove them along.
19:02	callen	in Clojure you'll find more people scratching their own itches and contributing.
19:02	cored	callen: that's weird
19:02	callen	that's an important sign of health.
19:02	callen	Nah, it makes sense to me :)
19:02	cored	weird in this context, mostly what I work on are web applications
19:02	justin_smith	cored: some languages will pull more people together on IRC than others
19:02	callen	cored: great news, so do a lot of other Clojure users :P
19:02	bbloom	ambrosebs: good stuff!
19:02	cored	I was trying to find some sort of web framework in Clojure too; find just compujure and the other day pedestal
19:02	justin_smith	cored: a language that pulls more people together on IRC may or may not be better than another
19:03	ambrosebs	bbloom: cheers!
19:03	callen	cored: Luminus pulls together "good defaults" for web apps in Clojure.
19:03	justin_smith	cored: a language that mostly pulled people together on AIM on the other hand, I would not touch with a ten foot pole
19:03	bbloom	ambrosebs: have you found any bugs in popular libraries yet? :-)
19:03	cored	justin_smith: probably that's because is harder to learn
19:03	cored	justin_smith: and people come here to ask questions
19:03	ambrosebs	bbloom: only in core.typed ;)
19:03	callen	cored: you might consider looking into that. It's not a full blown "web framework" necessarily, unless you want to use it for the nice "ready-to-go" project templates.
19:03	bbloom	ambrosebs: you should totally just fork projects, add type annotations, and report bugs, then brag about it :-)
19:03	callen	cored: it's all just components you can swap out at your leisure.
19:03	ambrosebs	bbloom: aww can't someone else do that? :)
19:04	ambrosebs	I just build the type systems around here
19:04	callen	ambrosebs: nope, your job to market your baby :)
19:04	ambrosebs	:P
19:04	ambrosebs	yes it's true
19:04	cored	callen: Relevance is the closest thing as Typesafe that I found giving stuff to Clojure
19:04	callen	not a bad comparison, but Clojure doesn't need the shove-along nearly as much as Scala.
19:05	callen	were it not for the Play community, Scala would be in a very sad state for web stuff. Comparable to Haskell.
19:05	justin_smith	cored: clojure has a much simpler semantics and syntax than scala; scala has the advantage of looking more like other popular languages
19:06	cored	callen: shove-along?
19:06	callen	Writing Clojure code and pushing out Clojure projects is more fun and pleasant - no need to get into nitty-gritty.
19:06	cored	justin_smith: yes, I saw that
19:06	cored	justin_smith: also Play framework :-)
19:06	yogthos	Scala feels enterprisey :)
19:07	yogthos	so I suspect it does better in shops that use Java today
19:07	cored	yogthos: how does Clojure feels?
19:07	yogthos	they even look superficially similar
19:07	callen	cored: fun, powerful, simple.
19:07	yogthos	it feels awesome, but it's a sisyphean task to get it going in enterprise I think :)
19:07	callen	it provides a good, safe default path for clean semantics but lets me monkey with stuff when I need/want to :)
19:07	callen	yogthos: you've had great success, be more fair :)
19:07	yogthos	it's much more likely to succeed in startup environments
19:08	callen	alexbaranosky: https://github.com/arohner/clj-wallhack
19:08	yogthos	took me 2 years :)
19:08	bbloom	cored: isn't the guy who made Play now chilling on the clojure mailing list? :-)
19:08	callen	yogthos: you work in gubbermint :P
19:08	technomancy	bbloom: that's Lift
19:08	yogthos	I sure do
19:08	cored	yogthos: :-)
19:08	callen	technomancy: I'd run for the hills if I made Lift too.
19:08	cored	bbloom: yes, where?
19:08	bbloom	ah ok Lift, heh
19:08	technomancy	from what I can tell Play is more accessible to Java folks
19:08	cored	bbloom: :-P
19:08	jkkramer	as someone whose done a fair amount of both scala/play and clojure web dev, i vastly prefer clojure
19:09	callen	Play is considerably better designed than Lift, but I still prefer Clojure to Scala/Play.
19:09	yogthos	I think most people do
19:09	bbloom	i think the scala people are publishing some great, practical research papers
19:09	yogthos	problem is most people don't give clojure a chance :)
19:09	cored	bbloom: another weird thng, I remember that guy running away from Ruby and saying why strong typed languages are better going to Scala and building Lift, now he is using Clojure
19:09	yogthos	and part of it is lack of polish
19:09	yogthos	and that's changing nowadays
19:09	callen	bbloom: I tried running a research PDF with `/usr/bin/env scala` once, didn't work. Not very practical :(
19:10	scottj	arohner: you have you written any blog posts or such about circleci's experience using core.typed?
19:10	cored	jkkramer: why is that?
19:10	yogthos	I think tooling is a really big part though
19:10	arohner	scottj: not yet. I mean to
19:10	callen	yogthos: well, it's huge when your tooling is as bad as sbt.
19:10	yogthos	again from enterprise perspective people use stuff like eclipse and intellij
19:10	jkkramer	tooling is big, yeah. leiningen is awesome
19:10	jkkramer	(inc technomancy)
19:10	lazybot	⇒ 73
19:10	yogthos	so working with scala feels very natural to them
19:10	bbloom	sbt and lein would probably feel like a really great case study on the typed and untyped approaches
19:10	callen	yogthos: CCW is fine though.
19:11	jkkramer	also, play uses a lot of questionable design choices
19:11	yogthos	that's what I use :)
19:11	cored	yogthos: well, I was trying Clojure with Eclipse and clockwise
19:11	callen	bbloom: I don't see how they're indicative of either side of the fence.
19:11	yogthos	gets my seal of approval
19:11	arohner	scottj: it's worked well though. it's something of a pain to start using with 'legacy' code, because in general your type signatures are more gnarly w/o core.typed
19:11	bbloom	callen: sbt's configuration is operator overloading EXPLOSION
19:11	callen	yogthos: I didn't know you used CCW, thought you were an Emacs user.
19:11	yogthos	but it would be nice to have a good alternative to eclipse that's not emacs :)
19:11	callen	bbloom: oh yeah THAT. That shit is insane.
19:11	cored	jkkramer: I built an application on Play was the best thing I've ever use in a Java env, for web development. Before that I was using Structs/JSF both things I hate with all my heart
19:11	bbloom	meanwhile, lein is just a bag of data
19:11	cored	s/Structs/Struts
19:11	arohner	where if you're using core.typed when you design the code, you say "wait, do I really want that gnarly signature? no. simplify"
19:11	yogthos	I think lein is a real winner for clojure
19:11	arohner	and in general, that's a good thing
19:12	yogthos	especially with lein templates
19:12	callen	bbloom: but that's data vs. executing operators against representations of data. Is that really indicative of typed vs. untyped?
19:12	yogthos	the other thing that needs to shake out is some standard ways to do stuff
19:12	callen	arohner: you use core.typed at your startup?
19:12	yogthos	our philosophy is not to do frameworks and prefer libraries
19:12	yogthos	but that's a big problem for new people
19:12	yogthos	because they don't know what libraries to use, or how to structure projects, and so on
19:12	callen	to that end, Luminus is a roll-up of current best practices and libraries - not a reified framework unto itself.
19:13	yogthos	a lot of basic stuff can be frustrating to find
19:13	bbloom	callen: you need types in order to make the operator overloading work
19:13	yogthos	that's the plan :)
19:13	jkkramer	cored: developing clojure web apps is much simpler (in the hickey sense of simple) - responses are simply functions of requests. that's sorta-kinda the case in play, but with awkward typing and implicit gunk getting in the way
19:13	callen	bbloom: necessary sure, but I don't see the other side of the mirror where you could use the abuse thereof to compare type systems.
19:13	yogthos	jkkramer: that's what I'm trying to convey with the book as well
19:13	callen	bbloom: maybe more of a cultural note?
19:13	bbloom	callen: yeah, it's clearly cultural
19:13	callen	That makes sense.
19:14	bbloom	although i guess you could use the Rep or Expr or whatever type they have
19:14	yogthos	I think that if there's a decent book describing the ecosystem people can get the basics nailed down
19:14	bbloom	and just get an AST and call that data
19:14	callen	yogthos: just...gotta stop using thread-locals in lib-noir man... :P
19:14	yogthos	then they can jump start into doing stuff that makes sense for them :)
19:14	yogthos	callen: patches accepted :P
19:14	callen	yogthos: you won't like this nihilist's solution to it, that's why I haven't PR.d
19:14	callen	and no, I don't mean just deleting it.
19:15	yogthos	lol
19:15	callen	yogthos: my solution would be request scope contract enforcement, surely you know that.
19:15	callen	yogthos: you know you can't do that in lib-noir without user education.
19:15	yogthos	yeah would be a big change
19:15	callen	well? that's why you don't have my dirty dirty DIRTY macros in lib-noir.
19:15	yogthos	the main thing is sessions
19:15	callen	but I needed http-kit to work - so here we are.
19:15	callen	yogthos: same solution.
19:15	callen	(seriously)
19:16	callen	it's all just implicit request context scoping.
19:16	cored	jkkramer: have to re-watch that talk, probably
19:16	yogthos	and to be fair you don't want to make it a straight jacket either
19:16	yogthos	for lots of apps jetty is perfectly fine
19:16	yogthos	even with current setup if you use db sessions you're fine
19:16	cored	maybe Clojure needs some sort of killing tool, like Rails or even Play
19:16	callen	yogthos: I'm not saying, "rm -rf / # if using jetty", I'm just saying, make it implementation agnostic, and the deeper magic requires obeying the scoping contract.
19:16	cored	don't you guys think?
19:16	callen	cored: no, we just got done explaining libraries > frameworks.
19:17	jkkramer	yogthos: i have some middleware i use a lot - interested in PRs for the generic ones? https://github.com/jkk/sundry/blob/master/src/sundry/ring.clj
19:17	callen	cored: libraries > frameworks means, you don't throw away the whole car when the alternator needs replaced.
19:17	hiredman	cored: no
19:17	yogthos	jkkramer: absolutely :)
19:17	callen	ambrosebs: does arohner use core.typed at CCI?
19:17	ambrosebs	callen: yep
19:17	cored	callen: well that's what helped Rails in a way, even when Rails is kinda well not suited for doing big things
19:17	ambrosebs	callen: for a few months now
19:17	callen	cored: you need to learn the "why" of how we do things first.
19:18	callen	ambrosebs: sounds like an endorsement to me.
19:18	ambrosebs	callen: it's the endorsement ;)
19:18	callen	jkkramer: I like that wrap-failsafe.
19:19	callen	ambrosebs: one of the more prominent "product" startups using Clojure. Very cool :)
19:19	jkkramer	yogthos: cool. happy to move these into community libs so i can shirk maintenance responsibilities ;)
19:19	ambrosebs	callen: arohner seems happy with it.
19:19	hiredman	cored: that assumes a goal of growing the language user base very quickly
19:19	callen	jkkramer: yeah uhh...I'm just going to steal all of this code. kthxbai.
19:19	callen	cored: to roughly quote Rich Hickey - "we're happy being the BMW or Mercedes of programming langauges"
19:20	cored	hiredman: ?
19:20	jkkramer	callen: they could use some docs but yeah, they have come in handy
19:20	cored	callen: what does that mean ? :-)
19:20	callen	cored: look at my quote, it explains what hiredman said.
19:20	callen	cored: we don't need a lot of users to be successful, as long as we're productive and happy.
19:20	cored	callen: I was watching the Neal Ford presentation on Clojure Master Plan
19:20	cored	he suggested somethings that the Clojure community needs
19:20	callen	cored: such as?
19:20	cored	callen: wait
19:20	callen	cored: Neal Ford is ThoughtWorks, not Relevance.
19:21	cored	callen: yes, I know :-)
19:21	yogthos	jkkramer: and it makes it easier to find the stuff too
19:21	yogthos	for common utils I think it makes sense to have one lib
19:21	callen	cored: the more subtle point being that people are more likely to take advice/ideas from those who actually use Clojure and understand the culture/aesthetic.
19:21	callen	yogthos: I like his stuff a lot.
19:22	callen	yogthos: I'm stealing the multi-arity wrap-failsafe immediately.
19:22	yogthos	nice :)
19:22	alexbaranosky_	callen: sorry was in a a meeting. I mean a field defined in a JAva class that has no private or public term in front of it
19:22	callen	alexbaranosky_: clj-wallhack?
19:23	callen	if you can't access it by default, surely clj-wallhack can.
19:23	hiredman	cored: I don't know that I would want something that did for clojure what rails did for ruby to exist
19:23	callen	cored: you'll find more than one person here that doesn
19:23	callen	doesn't like the way Rails or frameworks like it are designed either.
19:23	alexbaranosky_	callen: thanks!
19:24	mgaare	Neal Ford tells this funny story about a consultancy that uses clojure (and often sells it in terms of 'java with an extensions library'). They only have 4 people, so to make companies take them more seriousy, they made fake linkedin profiles for 16 more employees. The feedback from customers is, "wow you guys must have the 20 best programmers in the industry"
19:24	callen	mgaare: :P:
19:24	callen	er, mgaare: LOL
19:26	Raynes	ambrosebs: Awesome work with typed clojure. :3
19:26	ambrosebs	Raynes: thx!
19:27	`cbp	hah websockets are so cool. I feel like I might be doing something wrong with my approach of 'websocket on every page!'
19:29	cored	mgaare: yes, heard that on a podcast
19:29	cored	callen: well he talks about an abstraction layer for jdbc
19:30	cored	callen: also something like the pogniant ruby book for clojure
19:31	akurilin	yogthos, ping. Really tempted to buy your book in beta. How far along is it as of right now, if you don't mind me asking?
19:31	yogthos	akurilin: all the core content is there and code samples are all working
19:31	yogthos	akurilin: there's probably some typos and stuff along the way :)
19:32	akurilin	yogthos, Why is it 8 months away from being done then?
19:32	callen	cored: the abstraction layer for jdbc is c.j.j, and there are higher level layers than that.
19:32	yogthos	akurilin: oh that's probably just standard boilerplate, it should be releasing in mid september
19:32	akurilin	yogthos, oooh well that's a completely different story then.
19:33	yogthos	akurilin: I'll ask the editor why that date is there :)
19:34	akurilin	yogthos, Is the book mostly based on your experience making Luminus?
19:35	yogthos	akurilin: mostly my experience using it at work for the last couple of years
19:36	akurilin	yogthos, awesome. I'm glad someone stepped up to write a book about that specific topic, it's super relevant to my day to day work.
19:36	akurilin	so gratz :)
19:36	yogthos	akurilin: luminus is spawned from that too so a lot of it is similar just explored deeper
19:36	alexyakushev	I need to force Clojure reader to read a map literal with uneven number of forms. Is there a simple way to do this?
19:36	akurilin	Also nice to have it written by someone whose name is well known in our circles.
19:36	yogthos	finding out how to do simple stuff was my big frustration :)
19:36	yogthos	I'd end up googling this and that and then going oh well that makes sense
19:36	yogthos	but if you don't have anywhere to start it's definitely frustrating
19:37	ddellacosta	if anyone writes a version of the poignant guide for Clojure I will hurt them
19:37	ddellacosta	just sayin'
19:37	callen	ddellacosta: haha, why?
19:37	yogthos	my whole philosophy on this is that I love clojure and I want more people to use it :)
19:37	akurilin	yogthos, yeah that's what I've been doing for a while now, so it'd be good to learn from others who have gone through the process for much longer.
19:37	yogthos	once people have a good initial experience the language really sells itself I think ;)
19:38	yogthos	akurilin: and I'm definitely open to feedback as it's mostly my own experience, so different angle is always good
19:38	yogthos	I'm sure some stuff I do might not work for others
19:38	ddellacosta	callen: I shouldn't get too deep into it, but as a Ruby/Rails dropout I have really conflicted feelings about "why" and think we should not emulate that approach to thinking about software and development.
19:39	hiredman	alexyakushev: I've used a patched(not public) version of tools.reader to do that
19:39	ddellacosta	callen: but, you know, if someone really wants to do that, of course I won't really say anything, I'll just grumble away in my corner
19:39	callen	ddellacosta: I'll just say it - I think _why is overrated - but I think a blend of Clojure's philosophy and code in some format could be very cool :)
19:39	alexyakushev	hiredman: Thank you, perhaps that's the only way
19:40	hiredman	alexyakushev: did you accidentally print a map with print-length bound?
19:40	ddellacosta	callen: that is not at all the same thing, that sounds like it could be coherent, educational, useful, and all-around a good thing. I thought we were talking about why's poignant guide
19:40	technomancy	Learn You some Clojure for Great Good
19:40	callen	ddellacosta: no no, you're right. It's very different, I'm just thinking of different solutions to similar problems.
19:40	hyPiRion	I wish there was one
19:41	alexyakushev	hiredman: Not really, I need to grab a top level form from Emacs in which user is currently in, and he may be in a process of writing a map
19:41	ddellacosta	I kind of feel like 4clojure is a pretty awesome way to learn Clojure, but I'm biased 'cause that's how I started
19:41	akurilin	yogthos, ok that's cool, I'll let you know if I spot anything :)
19:41	brehaut	technomancy: im now imagining a clojure book made entirely out of repurposed wondermark and achewood
19:41	cored	callen: I should list the things that he said exactly
19:41	cored	callen: wait
19:42	ddellacosta	technomancy: I didn't get far through it, but I recall Learn You a Haskell for Great Good being not-too-bad
19:43	technomancy	brehaut: tempted
19:43	akurilin	yogthos, happen to have any coupons I should know about? :P
19:43	technomancy	ddellacosta: I work with the guy who wrote the Erlang one
19:43	yogthos	akurilin: none that I know :)
19:43	akurilin	yogthos, fair enough, was worth the try :)
19:44	ddellacosta	technomancy: very cool. Gotta dig into Erlang too one of these days
19:44	yogthos	akurilin: indeed, I get like 5 free hard copies to give out when it's realeased and that's it I think :)
19:44	hyPiRion	technomancy: Wha, are there only awesome people working at Heroku?
19:44	technomancy	hyPiRion: well the FP nerds at heroku have to band together
19:44	technomancy	fend off the node onslaught
19:45	hyPiRion	ah, good
19:45	hyPiRion	hopefully there aren't that few over there. For your sake, I mean
19:46	yogthos	and afk here
19:50	[Neurotic]	Anyone interested in testing out a fix for the leiningan plugin for IntelliJ 13 EAP? Looks like I have it working
19:50	callen	[Neurotic]: LaClojure?
19:50	[Neurotic]	Yah, works with La Clojure
19:51	[Neurotic]	La Clojure has nightly builds for the EAP (finally have nREPL support), but the Leiningan plugin wasn't supported for 13 yet
19:56	seangrov`	callen: Interesting, I suppose that'd make Haskell the Tesla of programming languages
19:57	seangrov`	With Tesla showing more signs of industry momentum...
19:57	callen	seangrov`: I beg your pardon?
19:57	callen	what did I say to make you think that?
19:57	seangrov`	"to roughly quote Rich Hickey - "we're happy being the BMW or Mercedes of programming langauges"
19:58	callen	I don't see Haskell's traction that you're talking about.
19:58	callen	last I checked, there are still singular libraries that can still cause cabal to die from conflicts even if nothing else is installed.
19:58	seangrov`	Alright, let's say Tesla 10 years ago - brimming with potential to show the rest of the industry how it's done
19:58	technomancy	like elm?
19:58	callen	even if you use cabal-dev (irrelevant if you haven't installed anything else)
19:58	seangrov`	Alright, let's say a fisker then
19:58	callen	seangrov`: fisker is failing/failed, I'm okay with that comparison.
19:59	seangrov`	Great ideas and good design, just not quite enough to push it to success
19:59	callen	Bingo.
20:00	seangrov`	technomancy: Played with elm at all? cljs is still eating up all my "new language" quota these days
20:00	callen	so who else loves that destructuring is recursive? :D
20:00	technomancy	seangrov`: I tried last year but literally couldn't get past `cabal install elm`
20:01	technomancy	seangrov`: just as well; I don't have any need for web frontend stuff ATM
20:04	callen	technomancy: re: literally couldn't get past `cabal install elm` - I keep trying to tell the Haskell users I know to take that problem more seriously and they don't listen.
20:05	technomancy	"The longer you have been working around a problem, the harder it is for you to see it as a problem." - Some Guy
20:06	technomancy	I got notified via github issues that "cabal install elm should work now, give it a try" like two weeks ago
20:07	technomancy	(on a bug I filed after last year's strangeloop)
20:07	hyPiRion	heh
20:09	callen	technomancy: that's called 'schlep blindness' in the HN community.
20:12	zachoakes	technomancy: i have a project that relies on two different libraries, one that relies on net.cgrand.parsley and one that relies on org.lpetit/net.cgrand.parsley (a fork).
20:12	Bronsa	dnolen: would you accept this? http://sprunge.us/XjQP?diff
20:12	zachoakes	since they have the same name, it seems to conflict, and leiningen uses the first exclusively, thus causing an error. is there a way to avoid the conflict?
20:13	technomancy	zachoakes: it's easy enough to get it to prefer one over the other using :exclusions, but having both loaded into the same JVM is hard
20:13	technomancy	unfortunately aether doesn't have any notion of provides/requires or replacing one package with another
20:13	technomancy	but those kinds of problems can be worked around manually usually
20:14	hiredman	technomancy: I doubt he is describing a lein issue, I imagine both libraries provide the same clojure namespaces
20:14	zachoakes	right, it's not lein specific, i'm just wondering what the normal way of solving it is
20:15	hiredman	there isn't one
20:15	technomancy	hiredman: yeah, by provide/require I was thinking more about apt-get
20:15	hiredman	zachoakes: you need to not depend on one or the other
20:15	hiredman	they cannot both be loaded in to the same clojure runtime
20:16	technomancy	zachoakes: what do you really want?
20:16	technomancy	is the lpetit one just the same as the original plus bugfixes?
20:16	hiredman	you can fiddle around with classloaders to load multiple clojure runtimes in the same jvm, but it is almost certainly not what you want
20:16	zachoakes	it's a fork but i don't know how substantial the changes are
20:18	zachoakes	i believe i tried adding net.cgrand.parsley to :exclusions at the top level of project.clj
20:19	dnolen	Bronsa: I would rather that the patch leave the current stuff alone, this way people can transition. Best if it's just a project.clj and nothing more.
20:22	Bronsa	dnolen: understandable, but that defeats entirely my rationale for having a project.clj at all: having lein automatically fetch and use new dependency as they get added instead of having to scrip/clean && script/bootstrap
20:23	dnolen	Bronsa: I don't see how a project.clj is conflict with the other scripts
20:23	hyPiRion	zachoakes: it should be placed inside the dependency I believe, see sample.project.clj for an example
20:23	dnolen	Bronsa: if you run lein instead of the other scripts you're good.
20:24	Bronsa	dnolen: certainly, but then you have to interactively launch the test suite instead of script/test
20:25	dnolen	Bronsa: I still don't see the conflict, lein test, instead of script/test
20:26	dnolen	Bronsa: unless there's something about lein I don't know about
20:26	Bronsa	dnolen: lein test is not going to work, script/test calls cljsc test and then invokes the output with various js engines
20:27	dnolen	Bronsa: er I mean test-compile the on your changes
20:27	dnolen	s/on/one
20:28	Bronsa	dnolen: there is no test-compile on my changes, I only removed a script that was useless/not usable anymore if that patch is merged
20:29	dnolen	Bronsa: you're not explaining yourself very well :) why do you need to change anything besides adding a project.clj?
20:31	Bronsa	dnolen: I'm sorry. if you followed the discussion I had before with seangrove, he spent 30 minutes trying to find a bug that was caused by him not running lein clean && lein bootstrap to update to the new tools.reader dependency.
20:32	zachoakes	hyPiRion: i did try :exclusions inside the dependency as well but no luck. if there was a way to make both dependencies use the same copy of parsley i think it may work.
20:32	Bronsa	dnolen: if we let leiningen handle dependency updates/classpath generation, once we bump a version in there, calling a script will automatically use the updated version without requiring us to script/clean && script/bootsrap every time
20:33	Bronsa	dnolen: the clojurescript test suite is not invokable by leiningen since it requires clojurescript compilation && running the compiled code with a js engine
20:34	Bronsa	(script/clean && script/bootstrap not lein)
20:34	dnolen	Bronsa: yes I follow your reasoning, I guess I wasn't clear earlier. I think it's better to do just one thing at a time. Add a project.clj let people know about it. Transition off the scripts in some later release.
20:35	Bronsa	dnolen: ok, fair enough. two separate tickets then?
20:35	dnolen	Bronsa: sure thing.
20:36	dnolen	Bronsa: thanks much!
20:36	Bronsa	dnolen: no problem, sorry for the misunderstanding :)
20:47	dnolen	Bronsa: my fault really :)
20:49	dnolen	bbloom: ping
20:49	bbloom	dnolen: pong
20:50	dnolen	bbloom: Bob Nystrom's comments about limitations of CLJS core.async / Generators + channels go me thinking
20:50	dnolen	bbloom: tldr; you can't actually hide asynchrony
20:50	bbloom	link?
20:50	dnolen	bbloom: no link just a twitter convo
20:51	dnolen	bbloom: anyways I realized that part of Rich's ideas is that go is kind of like loop/recur
20:51	dnolen	bbloom: in Erlang and Go like you lie and be unexplicit, but you run into the unbounded problem.
20:51	dnolen	bbloom: http://gist.github.com/swannodette/6373022
20:52	callen	dnolen: 'unbounded problem' ?
20:52	bbloom	dnolen: i'm looking at the tweets now
20:52	dnolen	bbloom: f pretends to provide a sync interface, it does not
20:52	bbloom	dnolen: "poison the entire callstack" is true, which is why go dispatches at the infinity point: it forks the process off as a top-level resource, to use the algebraic effect parlance
20:53	dnolen	bbloom: yes, but my point is that it's a lie, anywhere a function is aync but present a sync interface is an unbounded queue
20:54	bbloom	dnolen: f IS a sync interface. you're making it async by writing "go"
20:54	dnolen	bbloom: but it's equally poisoned in the other directly :)
20:55	dnolen	direciton
20:55	callen	could someone explain the unbounded problem dnolen is referring to?
20:55	dnolen	bbloom: if I put this in a go block, I'm screwed
20:55	bbloom	callen: he's talking about how you can create unbounded queues by using asynchronous send
20:55	bbloom	callen: and asycnhronous send is trivial: you just wrap a send in a go and then ignore it
20:55	bbloom	or use put! directly
20:56	dnolen	bbloom: this is a trivial relation really, but I don't think I ever really understood the limitations of lightweight process model.
20:56	callen	bbloom: more to the point, lazily allocated channels?
20:56	dnolen	anywhere where you pretend the sync and async world can just transparently talk to each other - it's simply not true
20:56	bbloom	callen: no
20:56	dnolen	s/relation/realization
20:57	bbloom	dnolen: i don't follow how this doesn't also apply to core.async
20:57	dnolen	bbloom: oh no, of course it does :)
20:57	bbloom	oh lol ok then
20:57	callen	that was part of what confused me.
20:57	bbloom	yeah, it's totally like recur
20:57	dnolen	bbloom: exactly!
20:57	bbloom	recur == "tail call elimination is not an optimization, it's a feature"
20:58	bbloom	go == "heap allocated stacks are not an optimization, they are a feature"
20:59	bbloom	so it turns out that Algebraic Effect handlers addresses both of these problems!
20:59	bbloom	you can treat a tail call as an "effect" just as you can treat spawning a goroutine as an effect
20:59	bbloom	and you install an effect handler in your stack & if you try to use an effect that isn't in your dynamic extent, you fail
20:59	bbloom	this way you can prove a program never spawns a process or makes an unoptimized tail call
21:00	dnolen	bbloom: seems worthy of blog post :)
21:00	bbloom	you gonna write it? :-P
21:00	dnolen	bbloom: haha, no
21:00	bbloom	you should write a post about recur & go
21:00	bbloom	i'll follow up about effects ;-)
21:01	dnolen	bbloom: but I might write something up about the unbounded queues where async and sync worlds meet
21:01	seangrov`	dnolen: I've been very interested in the boundary between async and sync, would definitely be interested in reading it
21:02	bbloom	dnolen: i have so many comments/corrections/challenges to tha ttwitter thread
21:02	bbloom	but i don't feel like explaining any of them in 140 chars
21:02	bbloom	nightmare.
21:03	dnolen	seangrov`: well in some sense this isn't a problem with CLJS core.async since you can't lie, if you really want to talk to async world, you need to lift yourself up into it via go.
21:03	callen	bbloom: which?
21:03	bbloom	all of it. :-P
21:03	callen	bbloom: if you drop a name I could use as an entrypoint to the thread, I'd appreciate it.
21:03	dnolen	bbloom: hehe, would happy to hear your thoughts, but yeah not a good twitter convo.
21:04	bbloom	callen: https://twitter.com/munificentbob/status/372164340457041920
21:04	seangrov`	dnolen: Sure, but I've been wondering about the "infectious" nature of go-routines, callbacks, and sync-code, and the fact that none of them can seamlessly interop
21:04	bbloom	dnolen: but yeah, that's the thing about "go" is it says "spawn this to the top level"
21:04	bbloom	you actually can do non-top-level goroutines, etc, but it's not truly asynchronous. you only have one thread of execution
21:04	bbloom	which would actually be useful to do in a game setting
21:05	callen	bbloom: thank you.
21:05	dnolen	bbloom: I haven't heard of that, how can you do this?
21:05	bbloom	if you go check out that paper on Eff, you'll see the distinction is one of whether or not you have a "resource" which is a top-level object from the outside world
21:05	seangrov`	If you have async code, sync code can no longer (meaningfully) interact with it without a very explicit understanding (or common patter), and the same for go channels and callbacks
21:05	dnolen	bbloom: do you mean in golang you can do this, or in genearl?
21:05	dnolen	general
21:05	bbloom	dnolen: no, not in Go
21:05	dnolen	bbloom: k
21:06	seangrov`	I think the core problem is that "return" is made meaningless with callbacks and go channels/routines
21:06	bbloom	dnolen: imagine you have a variable with a top level "system" for your go routines, channels, etc
21:07	bbloom	dnolen: every channel would have a pointer to this top-level system thing
21:07	seangrov`	The same thing effectively happens in twisted python - you have to resort to patterns (like the standard node callback signatures) because you no longer have a common way of communicating return values
21:07	bbloom	if it's the true top level, you don't really care what's in that pointer. it's global, so it's not important
21:07	bbloom	but let's say you wanted to create a mini little world w/ a particular scheduler & determinism and all that
21:07	dnolen	seangrov`: yeah, but part of my argument which I think is true, when you think of processes you don't really have a sensible return value outside of a channel anyway.
21:07	bbloom	you could create a protocol for "effects" which are basically messages you send up the call stack like exceptions
21:08	dnolen	seangrov`: this is much messier if the async model is task oriented (i.e. one-off)
21:08	bbloom	and then "handlers" like catch blocks, can dispatch on those messages & continue at the point where the message was raised
21:08	bbloom	so you could just implement the channel protocols & dispatch to that implementation for some sub-tree of your dynamic extent
21:09	dnolen	bbloom: but inside the sub-tree are you saying you're not really async?
21:09	bbloom	dnolen: right
21:09	dnolen	bbloom: hrm
21:09	bbloom	dnolen: it would just be round robin or whatever
21:09	bbloom	this would be super useful to do in general, b/c you could mock the outside world to test your goroutines
21:09	bbloom	you could reify their execution state however you like & inspect it
21:09	seangrov`	dnolen: Yeah, I think yield is an interesting subset of channel-communication - it lets you give multiple "return values". But if you have multiple return values, you're sending messages
21:09	bbloom	see http://math.andrej.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/eff.pdf
21:10	bbloom	example 6.10
21:10	bbloom	on page 22
21:10	bbloom	the protocol there is yield (not generator yield) and fork
21:10	bbloom	they create a trivial round robin scheduler w/ a list & install it in the dynamic extent
21:11	bbloom	you could create an effect with the following operations: new-channel, send, recv, alt
21:11	bbloom	oh and go
21:11	bbloom	i think that's the effect protocol: channel/send/recv/alt
21:12	bbloom	and i guess technically, send/recv can be implemented in terms of alt
21:13	bbloom	in addition to Cleff, which is lexical extent only still, i have a working interpreter w/ this stuff :-)
21:15	dnolen	bbloom: hrm, this model still seems broken even if you can do this in your world, it has a global side effect at the top.
21:15	dnolen	bbloom: how does the whole thing get unscheduled for some other top level process?
21:17	bbloom	dnolen: so there is this notion of a "resource" which is a top-level thing
21:18	bbloom	dnolen: everything is single threaded & if you want real threads & real asynchrony, you use a resource, which must be provided by the runtime
21:18	bbloom	the idea is that you'll have very few top-level resources & anything else will wrap those as needed or just create local "pure" effects
21:19	bbloom	the two most obvious resources are the store and IO
21:19	bbloom	think of it like a kernel call
21:19	bbloom	whenever you make a kernel call in C, your program suspends
21:19	bbloom	the kernel does something, then resumes your program
21:19	bbloom	any time you send an "effect" and it bubbles all the way up to the top w/o being intercepted, then that's like a kernel call
21:20	dnolen	bbloom: feel like pushing the problem around but ok. I do like the effect handler bit - though I'm not convinced yet it's any better than core.async preventing unbounded queues.
21:20	bbloom	so your kernel API needs to have load/store memory, plus spawn/kill threads, etc
21:20	dnolen	bbloom: you would want the system to know that you're ok if the queue gets to a certain size, but this sounds like undecideable problem.
21:20	bbloom	yeah that's totally orthoginal
21:21	bbloom	you can implement core.async with a cheap-threads resource
21:21	bbloom	or system threads
21:21	bbloom	core.async is a stylized use of effects
21:21	bbloom	a good stylized use!
21:21	bbloom	anyway, gotta run. ttyl
21:21	dnolen	bbloom: what I mean is you don't often want to prevent crossing the bounday
21:21	dnolen	bbloom: you want to specify some condition by which it is allowed
21:21	dnolen	but maybe that's really hard to verify :)
21:52	gdev	dnolen, have you emblogenated all this? I'm trying to piece together the whole thing and I'm not following it very well =o
22:28	gdev	dnolen, nevermind, now that I've read the whole twitter conversation, previous blog posts, and Tony Hoar's book, I understand
22:28	gdev	*Hoare
22:35	futile	Is the Clojure compiler very complicated?
22:36	brehaut	on the scale of compilers? not so much
22:36	brehaut	and it depends waht you think of whitesmith style
22:37	futile	Would it be hard to write a parser for Clojure syntax in another language?
22:38	brehaut	no
22:38	gdev	hard for who?
22:39	futile	Me.
22:39	futile	I'm considering a very stupid idea.
22:39	jimrthy	The parser wouldn't be that hard...but actually running it would probably be pretty difficult
22:40	jimrthy	I'm a fan of stupid ideas
22:40	hiredman	the clojure compiler?
22:40	futile	I'm thinking of creating a Clojure IDE where the front-end is written in ObjC + Cocoa, and to do the integration features would communicate to a running Clojure process for that Lein project.
22:41	hiredman	the clojure compiler is hard to make changes to
22:41	jimrthy	(Sorry for interrupting, brehaut...sometimes I can't keep my mouth shut when I should)
22:41	futile	Mainly because I'm much more proficient at Cocoa than Seesaw.
22:42	gdev	clojure IDE? like emacs?
22:42	brehaut	futile: writing a parser for clojure for a text editor his relatively straight forward, likewise nrepl shouldnt cause any major problems
22:43	futile	brehaut: good to hear
22:43	brehaut	i wrote a simple recursive descent one in javascript in a relatively short space of time
22:43	futile	Is there a definitive place to know all the syntax it supports?
22:44	brehaut	the implementation and clojure.org
22:44	brehaut	the reader page on clojure.org is relatively comprehensive
22:44	gdev	futile, https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Compiler.java
22:44	futile	Actually better question: are there any surprise aspects to the syntax that aren't commonly used?
22:44	futile	Because I think I know the syntax well enough right now.
22:45	brehaut	the parser is more permissive than it officially supports
22:45	brehaut	and #_ might trip you up
22:45	futile	brehaut: nah, it just expects a valid form afterwords right?
22:45	brehaut	right
22:45	futile	easy enough.
22:46	brehaut	but you probably have to special case it because its removed from the parsed form
22:46	ivan	futile: people use all kinds of characters in keywords that clojure.org says aren't allowed
22:46	futile	So I suppose all I need to do is build up an AST where each node includes the line/char coords, and what type it is. Then I can use that to decorate an existing text view.
22:47	futile	So it sounds like this first part will be straight-forward. But integrating with a Lein project might not be.
22:48	seangrov`	Parsing will probably take up plenty of time
22:48	futile	Like, a few hours? Days? Weeks?
22:48	futile	I can't imagine it taking more than a weekend or two.
22:49	seangrov`	Few days to get something reasonable, probably
22:49	futile	Reasonable in terms of performance, or actually working?
22:49	seangrov`	Actually working
22:49	futile	:/
22:49	brehaut	from memory it took me a week all up to write a syntax highlighter including the shenanigans to hook into the javascript library i was using
22:49	brehaut	and performance tuning it
22:50	xeqi	I feel like a reference to https://github.com/cgrand/sjacket might be appropriate here
22:51	seangrov`	Wow, very cool
22:51	futile	xeqi: that was my first thought, thank to trptcolin pointing it out to me
22:51	xeqi	also possibly https://github.com/laurentpetit/ccw/tree/master/paredit.clj
22:51	futile	xeqi: but I can't help but think I should do the parsing on the ObjC side to minimize the things needed to be communicated between ObjC and Clojure
22:52	xeqi	true, these are better for a clojure based ide
22:52	xeqi	like say http://nightcode.info/
22:53	futile	The only things I want to talk to Clojure about are the actual structure of the current project, things like jump-to-symbol etc
22:53	xeqi	ah, then you want an nrepl frontend
22:55	futile	xeqi: frontend in what way?
22:56	futile	I figured I would have an ObjC GUI app that talks to a Clojure instance of [something] which sits inside the given project and can tell my ObjC all about its structure.
22:56	futile	I'm not sure if [something] is nrepl or not.
22:57	futile	Whatever it is, it needs to house several custom functions I create in Clojure.
22:58	brehaut	nrepl perhaps with middlewares or whatever it has that ive forgotten
22:58	xeqi	futile: I would expect nrepl would be a good starting point
22:59	xeqi	possibly with custom middleware for your custom functions
22:59	xeqi	ala the completion middleware, or ritz
22:59	futile	sounds good.
22:59	futile	thanks guys :)
22:59	futile	ok ill start on the objc frontend with proper syntax highlighting
22:59	futile	woot, exciting times
23:00	futile	i suddenly have lots of confidence in my ability to do things after the success of zephyros
23:00	futile	hopefully not overconfidence :)
23:00	xeqi	cause I can associate your previous sentence with: have a C app (emacs, vim) that talks to a clojure instance of (nrepl running the project) and can tell the program all about the structure
23:01	futile	xeqi: well at first I had this vague feeling that it was only using nrepl, and nothing custom on top of it, and everything it needed was built into nrepl. In which case it wouldn't be a good fit. But if it has middlewares as you say, then that seems reasonable.
23:08	ddellacosta	are people interested in fixture/scaffolding kind of libs for clojure? I feel like I'm always writing ridiculous amount of setup/teardown crap. I'm not sure if my testing strategies suck (probably), but it seems like it would be handy to have a bunch of helpers which would let you spec out default fixtures in some way kinda like FactoryGirl/Machinist/etc. in Ruby-land. Does anything like this exist?
23:09	ddellacosta	along those lines, I'd like something that makes it easy to sketch out DOM fixtures in CLJS-land.
23:09	mgaare	ddellacosta: do you think like FactoryGirl buys you anything that isn't already there thanks to clojure's richer syntactical offerings?
23:10	clj_newb_2345	http://www.ymacs.org/ <-- is there anyting like this, but written in clojurescript?
23:10	clj_newb_2345	I'd love to have something emacs-like, running in the browser, and instead of elisp, uses clojurescript
23:11	ddellacosta	mgaare: it's a good question. I'm not sure it built in clojure using an abstraction that would solve problems for people, but I'm imagining something that would like you specify simple keyword args and reasonable defaults and then handle the setup/teardown, if you merely plugged in a database config. I do a lot of that manually now, and it takes me time to build out helpers, always.
23:11	ddellacosta	mgaare: so, I mean, I don't know. Maybe?
23:12	SegFaultAX	'ello boyos and girlos.
23:13	ddellacosta	mgaare: I should be specific, I'm talking about targeting DB-driven apps, especially web-apps. But even with this there is a lot of variation with what folks are using, it seems…Datomic to Mongo to Postgres...
23:13	ddellacosta	'ello SegFaultAX.
23:13	mgaare	ddellacosta: the other thing I've found working with idiomatic(ish) clojure is that doing tests that actually the railsey style of actually setting up a test db
23:13	mgaare	rather, I've found that I haven't needed to do that.
23:14	mgaare	all of the clojure database libs I've come across work in terms of maps. So I tend to prefer to just fake the database layer
23:15	rhg135	https://www.refheap.com/18133 can i make the tracer module close over the value of comp-num at the time? (comp-num is supposed to be a unique id)
23:15	rhg135	tracer function*
23:16	SegFaultAX	I have mixed emotions about that. For a lot of stuff it totally doesn't matter, so decoupling from the database is a good thing. But other times you really do want to see how the code interacts with the database.
23:16	ddellacosta	mgaare: interesting. The thing is, my schema is complex enough that faking this in and of itself would take just as much time. And another thing I've struggled with lately is how coupled our DB layer should be with the "model" layer. I find that I enforce a lot less separation in Clojure-land, and rely on the DB more.
23:16	SegFaultAX	Since it's easily the most crucial component of your site.
23:16	SegFaultAX	(Even the site itself isn't as important in the grand scheme as the database)
23:16	ddellacosta	yeah, I mean, I've really had to rethink my strategy for interacting with the DB since I started building apps in Clojure. It's turned a lot of my previous assumptions upside-down.
23:17	SegFaultAX	ddellacosta: That's a feature!
23:17	clj_newb_2345	let's start a kickstarter for a emacs-writtten-in-clojure
23:17	ddellacosta	SegFaultAX: most definitely, I'm thankful for it! But it means I can't be lazy...haha
23:18	SegFaultAX	clj_newb_2345: Let's not.
23:18	jack_rabbit	clj_newb_2345, and never speak of this again.
23:18	SegFaultAX	There should be a Greenspun-like law for editors relative to emacs.
23:18	rhg135	agreed
23:18	clj_newb_2345	jack_rabbit: are you an op here?
23:19	SegFaultAX	I think rhickey is the only op.
23:19	SegFaultAX	You can get chan info from chanserv though.
23:19	jack_rabbit	clj_newb_2345, no.
23:19	jack_rabbit	clj_newb_2345, I was just joking.
23:19	clj_newb_2345	given the option, why would anyone prefer scripting their editor in elisp rather than clojure?
23:20	SegFaultAX	Oh no, technomancy, chouser and a few other are also ops.
23:20	amalloy	SegFaultAX: chouser is an op, and i think technomancy became one too
23:20	mgaare	ddellacosta: there are definitely some style issues that I don't think have gotten entirely settled in clojure yet when it comes to db use
23:20	SegFaultAX	amalloy: Yea. /msg chanserv access #clojure list
23:20	clj_newb_2345	if you write some [piece of software, say lein, that every clojure user users, you deserve to be an op
23:20	jack_rabbit	clj_newb_2345, not sure. But I don't think re-writing the millions of lines of elisp is really feasible.
23:21	clj_newb_2345	if I wrote lein, my resumee would be "does your companay use clojure? hire me, bitches"
23:21	SegFaultAX	clj_newb_2345: If you wrote lein, all your resume would have to have on it is your name and email. Eg, hand them a business card
23:21	SegFaultAX	Hired.
23:22	clj_newb_2345	right right, when you write lein, you don't apply for jobs; jobs apply for you
23:22	amalloy	i think technomancy's resume is more like "does your company use github? no? don't hire me then"
23:22	jack_rabbit	sounds about right.
23:22	SegFaultAX	"Oh and also, I wrote lein"
23:23	brehaut	nah, its a single frame form a webcomic
23:23	ddellacosta	mgaare: yeah…but I think that they point to a larger problem in software engineering in general, wrt databases. Coming from a Rails background myself, I feel like I had a lot of faulty assumptions based on the cardinal law that databases were some sort of "dumb store" and you need to enforce de-coupling…of course, this is not in any way a new thing:
23:23	ddellacosta	http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/06/object-relational-mapping-is-the-vietnam-of-computer-science.html
23:23	tim	ddellacosta: I like Rich Hickey's take in one of his talks: ORM == OGM
23:24	tim	*ORM == OMG
23:24	clj_newb_2345	btw, is there actually any _book_ on datalog? I hear that it's got the both of the relation model and prolog, but can't seem to find any structured infroamtion on datalog
23:24	mgaare	clj_newb_2345: there would need to be some big style changes with emacs to make it in line with idiomatic clojure. Almost all elisp assumes that there are mutable lists everywhere
23:24	ddellacosta	mgaare: what clojure does, for me at least, is exposes the lazy assumptions I had for years and has forced me to think about what persistence means and what de-coupling means and etc.
23:24	tim	clj_newb_2345: you have to define datalog, there are many flavours, do you mean the Datomic datalog?
23:25	ddellacosta	tim: ha, I remember that, it gave me a chuckle. He always has some funny, pointed moments in his talks like that
23:25	jack_rabbit	ddellacosta, that's the beauty of true functional programming.
23:25	mgaare	ddellacosta: Rails migrations are a crime against humanity ;)
23:25	ddellacosta	jack_rabbit: yah. heh
23:25	SegFaultAX	tim: TimMc?
23:25	ddellacosta	mgaare: I didn't used to think so, which is more evidence to prove your point. :-)
23:26	tim	SegFaultAX: nah sorry, tbaldridge
23:26	SegFaultAX	tbaldridge: Oh cool. Just wondering :)
23:26	gdev	clj_newb_2345, http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Datalog is a good place to start
23:26	mgaare	ddellacosta: Another thing to bear in mind is that in clojure, the cool kids tend to like to use datomic as the db for new projects
23:26	SegFaultAX	Rails migrations are one of the more useful things about Rails. There is a /lot/ of shit I hate about Rails, but migrations isn't one of them.
23:27	ddellacosta	mgaare: I don't have the cash to use it. ;-(
23:27	tbaldridge	ddellacosta: the free version is well....free. And I know several companies who get along just fine with it.
23:27	mgaare	ddellacosta: the free storage is actually pretty good
23:28	mgaare	depends on what you're doing
23:28	SegFaultAX	One transactor can take you pretty far from what I understand. Especially on super read-heavy apps (which a lot of apps tend to be anyway.
23:28	mgaare	if you're doing something that you would use mysql in a somewhat standard railsey way, then datomic's free storage should be awesome
23:29	ddellacosta	SegFaultAX: I feel mixed wrt Rails migrations. They can be handy. But I no longer trust down-migrations like I used to.
23:29	SegFaultAX	ddellacosta: When using #change?
23:29	ddellacosta	tbaldridge, mgaare: okay, I guess it's probably more accurate to say that I can't legitimately evaluate datomic right now because of other obligations, and I use price as an excuse. ;-)
23:30	mgaare	I've come to think that if you're doing a lot of rails migrations, then maybe a relational database isn't really what you want
23:30	callen	SegFaultAX: hypothetically 8.2 million transactions per second.
23:30	SegFaultAX	mgaare: What?
23:31	gdev	datomic is only free if your time is worth nothing, ;0
23:31	callen	mgaare: what?
23:31	gdev	to repurpose a quote about linux
23:31	callen	Datomic is about to save me a ton of time and hassle at work, it's a win for me and my company anyway.
23:31	ddellacosta	SegFaultAX: generally speaking I mean. I agree with this: http://flywaydb.org/documentation/faq.html#downgrade
23:32	tbaldridge	gdev: learning anything takes time. Nice thing is, learning datomic too me way less than most DBs
23:32	SegFaultAX	ddellacosta: Yea #change is shit. Just stick with explicit ups and downs.
23:32	SegFaultAX	It's better that way.
23:32	callen	I don't think anybody is saying Datomic should be used for everything under the sun, but I think it's pretty straightforward to learn and it has more niceties and broader applicability than many may think.
23:32	mgaare	if you are making that many schema changes where rails migrations are solving a big problem for you, maybe a nosql database would be a better option
23:32	ddellacosta	yeah, I can't say I wouldn't be using Datomic if I didn't have the option, I'm definitely interested.
23:32	callen	mgaare: ick, no.
23:33	tbaldridge	gdev: and if you get tasked with a project (like I was) where you need to do a 3 way compare on update with partial merging of data, Datomic is pretty much the only correct answer. SQL is a ugly hack in that case.
23:33	SegFaultAX	mgaare: Dude, just no.
23:33	callen	mgaare: migrations aren't nearly as painful as corrupted data.
23:34	callen	mgaare: I've happily used "NoSQL" data stores in the past, but you shouldn't abandon an RDBMS where its use is commended just because you're finding a migration sticky.
23:34	SegFaultAX	And rapid iteration and changing business requirements doesn't mean we should throw schema out the window.
23:34	callen	That's like saying because stop signs are painful, we should just charge through and plow pedestrians over.
23:34	ddellacosta	tbaldridge: oh god, I've done something like that 3-way compare in Ruby + SQL and it was hell
23:34	callen	I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm all for culling the herd - but that's not a good reason for doing it.
23:34	SegFaultAX	callen: This is the sort of dribble I expect to hear from "webscale" type people. Not the fine upstanding citizens of #clojure
23:34	ddellacosta	heh
23:35	gdev	okay, so when I do winky o-face ;0 that means I'm kidding
23:35	ddellacosta	I got yer webscale right heah
23:35	SegFaultAX	s/dribble/drivel (don't know what my fingers were typing there)
23:35	callen	SegFaultAX: clearly your inputs needed validation...
23:36	gdev	I'm the guy trying to get Simulant as an approved testing framework at my job...Clojure Datomic and Datalog on the approved technologies list in one swoop, =D
23:36	SegFaultAX	gdev: Well done!
23:37	SegFaultAX	There's a really hardcore process for adopting new tech at my job...
23:37	SegFaultAX	"Hey guys, I'm going to write this in Clojure. If you don't like that, please forward your complaints to /dev/null"
23:37	mgaare	callen: one hard migration in an app that works well with rdbms, no problem. I think a big pile of migrations can be cause for concern though
23:37	SegFaultAX	Then I slam my macbook air on the ground and walk to blue bottle.
23:37	callen	the process for getting Clojure + Datomic at my company involved explaining it to the project manager. PMs are often hackers, so it wasn't hard. That was about it.
23:37	callen	mgaare: I don't thin kso.
23:38	callen	SegFaultAX: macbook air? pleb laptop.
23:38	callen	SegFaultAX: only non-programmers have MBAs at my company. :P
23:38	gdev	SegFaultAX, I like it, are you guys accepting resumes?
23:38	SegFaultAX	callen: Remember, it's pairing environment.
23:38	callen	...hrm. that's a truism.
23:38	callen	SegFaultAX: oh right, with that kind of efficiency you might as well code on chalkboards. Proceed.
23:38	SegFaultAX	callen: Primary development is on beefy desktops.
23:39	callen	screeeeech, "def get", scraaaaaaaaape
23:39	SegFaultAX	Well not beefy, but at least they're 486's!
23:39	callen	chalk breaks fuck it, lets scrum.
23:39	SegFaultAX	gdev: Why yes, yes we are.
23:39	callen	SegFaultAX: with the turbo button?
23:39	mgaare	I think nosql gets a bad rap because mongo sucks
23:39	SegFaultAX	callen: Don't get crazy dude. We don't need that kind of speed.
23:40	callen	mgaare: Mongo sucks, but NoSQL is not a general purpose persistence solution - period.
23:40	SegFaultAX	mgaare: I think nosql is about as useful of a term as "OOP" or "FP"
23:40	callen	gdev: don't let him fool you, they're a rails shop. No Clojure in sight :P
23:40	SegFaultAX	Not true!
23:40	callen	mgaare: NoSQL as a "term" and a VERY rough grouping fell out of the need for super high scale specialized persistence layers.
23:40	SegFaultAX	Well, the rails part is. But the Clojure part isn't!
23:41	callen	SegFaultAX: where's the beef?
23:41	callen	mgaare: note that none of what I just said includes, "dinky internal dashboard for SMB"
23:41	SegFaultAX	callen: In your mums trousers! Oooooooh
23:42	callen	SegFaultAX: no but 5realz. Where the parens at?
23:42	callen	we've upgraded to (inc :4realz) so truth me.
23:42	mgaare	I'm no new-db expert, to be sure. My "nosql" experience has mostly been with couchbase
23:42	callen	mgaare: that's not a general purpose persistence solution either.
23:43	callen	I bet it'd make a hell of a caching layer though.
23:43	SegFaultAX	callen: Right now just internal stuff. But as we migrate more towards SOA/uSOA I'm hoping it will play a larger role.
23:43	mgaare	That's sort of how we're using it now, on top of cassandra for the "raw" data
23:44	callen	SegFaultAX: yisssss
23:44	callen	mgaare: I'm sorry to hear that.
23:44	mgaare	cassandra has gotten much nicer this year
23:44	callen	I wasn't saying that re: Cassandra.
23:44	callen	Cassandra has improved a lot.
23:44	gdev	I'm trying to use datomic to store all my repl history
23:45	callen	gdev: any...particular reason?
23:45	futile	♫ this is the tale / of captain jack sparrow ♫
23:45	mgaare	callen: saying it re: couchbase?
23:46	gdev	so when I get an error I can see if I've made the same mistake before
23:46	SegFaultAX	futile: Hhheheh
23:46	callen	futile: dare I ask what the prompt was?
23:46	futile	♫ michael bolton we're really gonna need you to focus up ♫
23:47	futile	callen: you haven't seen it?
23:47	callen	I assumed there was a more specific prompt than merely watching the movie.
23:47	futile	callen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI6CfKcMhjY
23:47	`cbp	what's the patrician's preferred laptop? :P
23:47	gdev	callen, its also part of the functionality for a project I'm trying to hack together
23:48	callen	`cbp: retina MBP or thinkpad, but I was being facetious :)
23:48	callen	gdev: that being?
23:49	callen	although Lenovo is doing a really good job of incrementally ruining the thinkpad series.
23:49	callen	I'm like two bottles of scotch away from doing a Kickstarter for a "hacker's laptop" product line.
23:50	callen	futile: "Now I'm back to the good part!"
23:50	gdev	callen, clojure-quest
23:50	futile	"not better"
23:50	futile	callen: :D
23:56	ddellacosta	anyone around who is doing repl-based CLJS testing?
23:56	mgaare	callen: that would be great. keep it simple. massive hi res display, tons of ram, fast processor, 1 ssd and 1 spinner, lots of ports. boom done :D
23:56	tbaldridge	anyone know where the fn to greek lambda converstion code is in emacs live?
23:57	callen	ddellacosta: sometimes I think you intentionally pick stuff that won't get answered in here.
23:57	callen	ddellacosta: might I suggest Saint Jude?
23:57	ddellacosta	callen: haha, yeah, that was kind of a shot in the dark. I want to figure out a better CLJS testing flow than the one I have now, and I would like it to be repp-based (rather than the compiling via lein cljsbuild I am doing over-and-over these days…sigh)
23:58	ddellacosta	repp = repl
23:58	ddellacosta	if that wasn't obvious
23:58	callen	I've only used lein-cljsbuild :(
23:58	callen	ddellacosta: I think some people do a browser repl based thing, and experiment in that.
23:58	callen	I don't know that they necessarily run unit tests from it though.
23:58	xeqi	ddellacosta: https://github.com/cemerick/austin and https://github.com/cemerick/clojurescript.test might be of interest
23:59	callen	xeqi: good call :)
23:59	ddellacosta	xeqi: I've got a browser-based repl loaded up, and I am using clojurescript.test. The problem is that I have a good flow for writing a test in a file and having it get loaded quickly into my repl so that I can iterate through solving a test in "realtime."