#clojure – 2013-08-27

2013-08-27

00:00	technomancy	wait, that's the letrec email?
00:00	hiredman	yes
00:00	hiredman	so called because out of no where "we need letrec"
00:01	technomancy	clojurebot: letrec?
00:01	clojurebot	Pardon?
00:01	technomancy	clojurebot: letrec is <reply>"we need letrec" - Joe Armstrong (http://erlang.org/pipermail/erlang-questions/2011-May/058768.html)
00:01	clojurebot	Roger.
00:01	seangrov`	dnolen: Ok, think I got it... https://github.com/sgrove/clojurescript/commit/6eb9abbd685dbf0a6e0f6f048ac3bd5c840da97a
00:02	seangrov`	bbloom: I like your idea about splitting patches up, I'll try to towards that
00:03	bbloom	seangrov`: i view a good pull request as having having one or more clear, clean incremental steps, that tell a story about how a change impacts the program. thinking about that locally is helpful to my development process too. I often rebase patches as i work to make them small & clean & clear, so I understand what I've actually accomplished & how
00:05	seangrov`	Just did my first interactive rebase ever... always more to learn, it seems
00:05	seangrov`	It'll probably be like emacs though, very much worth it once I've figure it out
00:06	dnolen	tbaldridge: doesn't seem any slower, maybe even a bit faster?
00:11	tbaldridge	dnolen: well that's good to hear. I don't think it's possible that it's faster, but I'm glad it's not slower
00:12	dnolen	tbaldridge: definitely not slower at any of the benchmarks I was using before.
00:12	dnolen	seangrov`: this looks good, let's get a patch on the ticket and I will give it a try locally
00:13	tbaldridge	dnolen: btw, on your "make no promises" post, sometimes the hit just goes bonkers and I get 100k msgs in ~50ms
00:13	tbaldridge	*the jit
00:14	dnolen	tbaldridge: I suspect this is related some how to GC. Clicking on their of the two makes performance degrade after the first few runs.
00:14	dnolen	s/their/either
00:14	tbaldridge	dnolen: interesting
00:15	dnolen	tbaldridge: but yeah I've seen ~50ms runtimes for core.async
00:16	seangrov`	dnolen: Sounds good, running the tests one last time to make sure I didn't break anything with the rebase, then I'll submit the patch and head home
00:18	seangrov`	Attach it to this? http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-497
00:18	dnolen	tbaldridge: we should probably look a bit more closely at GC behavior as you've suggested.
00:19	tbaldridge	dnolen: any good suggestions for GC profilers for JS? Chrome Tools seemed a bit limited
00:20	dnolen	seangrov`: hrm, no let's make a new ticket, but please ref it from CLJS-497
00:21	dnolen	seangrov`: also ref 381
00:22	dnolen	tbaldridge: you might want to try Chrome Canary, they have some extra tools I think.
00:26	seangrov`	dnolen: Alright, I think this is good to go: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-576
00:26	dnolen	tbaldridge: yeah you can heap snapshots in Canary
00:26	seangrov`	Time to head out now
00:26	dnolen	seangrov`: excellent, many many thanks!
00:39	dnolen	tbaldridge: yeah it does appear that core.async things are lingering around ... more investigation needed
00:40	tbaldridge	dnolen: agreed, and I can't get chrome to parse the snapshot without dieing
00:40	dnolen	tbaldridge: yeah pick a smaller N :) I'm testing w/ size 1000 on my blog.
00:41	tbaldridge	dnolen: although, come to think of it, we're probably running into GC on the channels in your blog post
00:44	dnolen	tbaldridge: it looks like the main issue is the tasks array in dispatch ns
00:45	dnolen	tbaldridge: many things are getting retained because of that
00:45	tbaldridge	ah yeah, I didn't do the thing that cleans out the ring buffers.
00:45	tbaldridge	one sec
00:47	dnolen	tbaldridge: aha! :)
00:47	dnolen	tbaldridge: I was wondering length was zero :) but I forgot that it was a ring buffer not an array.
00:47	tbaldridge	dnolen: yeah, that commit should do it: https://github.com/clojure/core.async/commit/99e9155958491e632397f9b3dbdede84a419bee3
00:56	tbaldridge	dnolen: so I'm still seeing a lot of GC work after that commit, but I just realized it's only on the first invocation of the tests. The task queue has to resize as it runs out of room, at some point it will be large enough and we won't resize it again.
00:59	dnolen	tbaldridge: that makes sense, I was more concerned about stuff lingering around
01:07	dnolen	tbaldridge: ok I'm no longer seeing the retains through tasks here
01:07	tbaldridge	nice
01:31	callen	futile: hi!
01:31	futile	callen: hi
01:41	futile	callen: you sounded excited
01:43	futile	callen: is there something exciting?
01:43	callen	futile: I'm working on something pretty
01:43	futile	oh? can i see?
01:44	callen	if there's one thing I always thought Rubyists got right, it was putting spit-shine on something before shipping it. I'm making something that riffs off a detail of Rails.
01:44	callen	Not yet. I can ping you when I ship it.
01:44	futile	ok
01:44	futile	callen: I'm also working on something pretty right now.
01:45	callen	oh?
01:46	callen	Here's an anti-pattern, I end up making fake projects to test/mock libraries I'm working on far too often.
01:46	callen	I'm waiting for the day to come when I've made so many fake test projects that I don't have to make any new ones anymore.
01:46	futile	yeah, this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/msyq0nwfzhvbhjq/Screen%20Shot%202013-08-27%20at%2012.24.05%20AM.png
01:47	futile	(because I'm not happy with iTunes lately)
01:47	callen	I don't use music stored on local drive anymore, for the most part.
01:47	callen	it's all CD-ROMS and streaming music for me now.
01:47	futile	nobody does but me
01:47	callen	partly out of a desire to not pirate music.
01:47	futile	everyone uses spotify or pandora
01:48	futile	so i suppose ill be the only user of this app.
01:48	callen	don't focus on having users, just on scratching an itch.
01:48	futile	but it's gonna be a damn good app even still.
01:48	callen	getting other people to use your thing is about ego, not utility.
01:48	futile	actually scratch that. it already is. im officially announcing 1.0
01:49	futile	callen: btw are you talking about when you're actually working on the lib itself, you have to add tests to it?
01:49	futile	callen: otherwise no comprendo
01:51	callen	I don't consider writing tests to be sufficient
01:51	callen	I do functional/integration testing with mock projects in addition to unit tests.
01:52	callen	I'm a bit fascist about automation and testing.
01:52	callen	anyway, I'm griping about having to write mock projects.
01:52	futile	callen: hmm. I can kind of relate, since I've given up on large-scale unit testing and focus much more on integration testing at the highest scale.
01:53	callen	yeah that's partly why I do it.
01:53	futile	callen: but I've never had a project that required me to write mock projects. I guess depends on the project.
01:53	callen	I really just want to exercise the whole thing in expected patterns
01:53	callen	not nit-pick at specific bits.
01:53	futile	Leiningen probably would need mock projects
01:53	futile	Right. No need going at implementation details.
01:54	futile	At work we have an entire test suite that's largely useless at testing reliability of anything, and makes it really hard to change anything, because it entirely tests implementation.
01:54	futile	I think working on Zephyros taught me a lot about where abstraction lines should be, which would be useful for testing (except Zephyros has no tests).
01:55	callen	I think unit tests can be valuable, but they have to be written well and specify expectations that are meaningful.
01:57	futile	(expect = 2 (+ 1 1))
01:57	futile	i see that a lot
01:57	futile	well not really.
01:58	futile	callen: what kind of project is this?
01:59	callen	just a logging thing.
01:59	futile	oh like lazybot?
02:00	callen	not at all, but there's a related project there on my to-do list.
02:01	futile	cool
02:01	futile	i think my next project is a project management tool :)
02:01	futile	ive written a window manager and a music player. language and text editor are too ambitions. project management tool is just the right size.
02:01	futile	*ambitious
02:02	callen	what in the mother fuck?
02:02	callen	either I bumped into a Leiningen bug, or after years of usage I've forgotten how to write a :dependencies vector.
02:02	ddellacosta	callen: ?
02:02	futile	most likely the latter
02:03	futile	hi ddellacosta
02:03	ddellacosta	futile: howdy there.
02:03	callen	I nuked my ~/.m2, I'll report the error if this doesn't fix it.
02:03	ddellacosta	how goes it?
02:03	callen	and upgraded lein.
02:04	futile	ddellacosta: swell, thee?
02:04	ddellacosta	callen: yeah, if you're still having trouble after that post a refheap or something
02:04	ddellacosta	futile: not too bad, not too bad. Think I'm finally over jetlag, which makes me happy.
02:04	callen	I'm staring at the clojars page for my dependency, I know I'm not totally crazy.
02:04	callen	adlfknggrshklmryltmkfg
02:04	futile	ddellacosta: woohoo. i hope the cause of the jetlag was worthwhile?
02:04	futile	callen: could it be that you're tired and need a break?
02:05	ddellacosta	futile: well, you know, gotta visit the motherland once in a while, I suppose. ;-)
02:05	futile	callen: sometimes i find that something doesnt make sense until doing something else for 30 mins (or 10 days, depending on the thing).
02:05	futile	ddellacosta: where's that?
02:05	callen	who's up for fixing my stupid? https://www.refheap.com/18052
02:05	ddellacosta	futile: motherland = U.S. I live in Japan.
02:06	ddellacosta	callen: looking now
02:06	futile	oh cool
02:06	callen	https://github.com/kevinjqiu/lumiere/blob/master/src/lumiere/lumiere.clj
02:06	callen	^^ it's right bloody there.
02:06	callen	Retrieving lumiere/lumiere/1.0.0-SNAPSHOT/lumiere-1.0.0-20120301.024351-1.jar from clojars
02:06	callen	I saw it download!
02:06	futile	hmm
02:07	callen	here I'll look inside the jar.
02:07	ddellacosta	callen: ah, hurm
02:07	callen	there's a lumiere.clj inside the lumiere 1.0.0-SNAPSHOT jar.
02:07	callen	...but the ns is lumiere, not lumiere.lumiere
02:07	ddellacosta	the frack
02:07	futile	my dumb guess is it's a double-word problem
02:07	callen	I might kill this man for writing a misleading README.
02:07	futile	lumiere vs lumiere/lumiere
02:07	futile	ive seen that a lot
02:08	callen	not slash. dot.
02:08	futile	oh, looks like you figured it out already.
02:08	callen	that worked.
02:08	futile	i was talking about dirs
02:08	ddellacosta	what worked?
02:08	callen	I am going to send a PR stuffed with the fury of a thousand african hornets.
02:08	callen	ddellacosta: I ripped open the jar and checked the NS
02:08	callen	NS decl didn't match documentation, dude's careless.
02:08	callen	brb, sending nastygram via github
02:08	ddellacosta	oh
02:08	ddellacosta	haha
02:08	futile	callen: you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar
02:09	ddellacosta	futile is right, I shouldn't be encouraging this behavior
02:09	callen	futile: I describe my actions in hostile/violent terms for your amusement, I know how to get what I want - being nice.
02:09	futile	callen: try being extra nice about it, even though that seems backwards right now. tomorrow you'll be glad for it
02:09	callen	I'm very patient and pleasant on github. I only came close to slipping once, and that was with the homebrew people.
02:09	futile	callen: oh. well thats misleading.
02:09	callen	But they're territorial cunts.
02:09	callen	fuck them.
02:09	callen	took 15 days of volleyball to get a simple community-approved change implemented.
02:10	futile	ddellacosta: also i wrote a clojure port for https://github.com/sdegutis/zephyros
02:10	ddellacosta	callen: I recall something about installing clojure via home-brew, you and Raynes were onto something weren't you?
02:10	futile	*client
02:10	callen	ddellacosta: shit's gone yo. We nuked it.
02:10	callen	they finally merged the PR.
02:10	futile	the fact that this project has > 500 stars makes me feel like maybe im not incompetent.
02:10	callen	if your homebrew is up to date and you try to install Clojure with it, it'll smack you in the face and tell you to use Leiningen.
02:10	ddellacosta	callen: gotcha, that's good
02:10	callen	futile: that's pretty impressive. you were clearly touching on something people care about :)
02:10	ddellacosta	futile: that's pretty cool
02:11	callen	ddellacosta: doing god's work and all that. Raynes and I were both tired of the derps rolling in with problems specific to not using Leiningen.
02:11	ddellacosta	I'll give it a shot one of these days, when I'm not being so lazy
02:11	futile	callen: window management in mac os x just isnt as good as it is in linux
02:11	ddellacosta	callen: good stuff, definitely. Should actually help folks in a concrete way
02:11	callen	https://github.com/kevinjqiu/lumiere/pull/2
02:11	patchwork	If I have a separate thread running, how do I route stdin to it?
02:11	callen	futile: I know that. I'm an XMonad user.
02:12	ddellacosta	futile: I gotta admit, I'm not nearly as motivated by it as I used to be (but to echo callen, the 500+ stars on the project shows a lot of folks are)
02:12	futile	(inc callen)
02:12	lazybot	⇒ 8
02:12	callen	futile: I still use Macs though. dat hardware.
02:12	patchwork	It does not seem to be accepting my input
02:12	callen	patchwork: any thread should have the option of reading from System.in
02:12	ddellacosta	callen: nice.
02:13	futile	ddellacosta: i started getting optimistic about using it when i stopped looking at it as a full-fledged "take control of everything and ill do things your way" type of app, but more of an augmentation to my normal workflow with slight, modular additions
02:13	futile	when i took that approach, it wasnt that scary.
02:13	callen	I hack on a Thinkpad running Linux and use a Mac at work and sometimes at home.
02:13	futile	or overwhelming/tedious/etc
02:13	seangrov`	ddellacosta: You going to make it out California way this time around?
02:13	ddellacosta	futile: that sounds like the right way to do it to me
02:13	callen	futile: can't make everything on a Mac work inside of that model anyway.
02:13	futile	callen: i tried so hard to get arch linux running smoothly on my mbp
02:13	ddellacosta	seangrov`: I already got back to Nippon man…sorry! ;-(
02:13	callen	ddellacosta: yeah you need to stop by California. I need to get you a few rounds. :)
02:14	seangrov`	Ah, well, no worries
02:14	futile	callen: but it was so hard to get Just Right™
02:14	callen	futile: s'not worth it.
02:14	callen	yep.
02:14	futile	especially a retina
02:14	futile	*my
02:14	ddellacosta	seangrov`: but, this was a total east coast thing, my wife's family came and met mine for the first time.
02:14	seangrov`	You have some clojure friends in the bay when you come back next time ;)
02:14	seangrov`	Very nice, that's a fun experience
02:14	patchwork	callen: Hmm… how do I trigger that? This is the first time I've messed with (Thread. #(..)) in clojure
02:14	patchwork	probably I am doing this wrong
02:14	ddellacosta	seangrov`: Excellent, very excited by that. Cali is next up, in the next 6 months I'm hoping.
02:14	callen	now to write deep, deep evil with alter-var-root
02:15	callen	patchwork: you shouldn't be using raw threads geenrally.
02:15	futile	oh, like hyperion
02:15	callen	generally*
02:15	patchwork	callen: I suspected as much
02:15	callen	futile: I'm testing a Clojure + Datomic project at work. Pretty excited. It'll be the first thing running Clojure at my company.
02:15	futile	finally got the boss's approval for "a spike" to see if its better/faster/etc
02:15	futile	callen: woo
02:16	patchwork	callen: I have a thing in a (loop [..] …) I want to run in the background… but have it accept stdin and write to stdout. What is the right way to do that in clojure?
02:16	callen	there's no "approval" process. We're like an organized form of anarchy at my company so each person is given full control over their scope of influence.
02:16	futile	callen: what company?
02:16	callen	given that, all it took was selling the project owner on Clojure + Datomic, and he was already sold on Datomic (he's a hacker, not PM type)
02:17	callen	futile: genetics company
02:17	futile	i applied at relevance and was politely rejected
02:17	futile	callen: sounds scary
02:17	futile	callen: i'd envy that level of control, if it were possible
02:17	patchwork	callen: genetics… bioinformatics? sequencing? bioengineering?
02:18	patchwork	I am way into cell biology
02:18	patchwork	make a bunch of models of chemotaxis etc
02:18	callen	patchwork: we do sequencing and bioinformatics. It's genetic sequencing applied to specific medicine.
02:18	futile	btw objc's ARC is really cool and i bet Java/Clojure could benefit from something like it
02:18	callen	I'm not a bioinformaticist. I'm a software generalist and product guy that is obsessed with databases and backend.
02:19	callen	truth be told, I'm a failed-startup refugee (CTO) that found a nice company populated with cool people :)
02:19	patchwork	callen: pretty cool domain nonetheless
02:19	arubin	callen: Not related to the ThoughtWorks project using Clojure for cancer drug matching, is it?
02:19	patchwork	though in a way backend is backend I suppose
02:19	callen	futile: I'm actually a huge fan of ref-counting GC and scoped pointers.
02:20	callen	patchwork: you'd be surprised how little I need to know about the bio parts to be useful.
02:20	futile	callen: you know that ARC is compile-time "GC" right?
02:20	patchwork	Yeah, data is data
02:20	callen	arubin: no, we're all internal. Datomic + Clojure was an internal decision. They were already curious about Datomic, I used that as leverage to get them to try out Clojure. They've been plagued with problems related to Python so it seemed a good alternative to try out.
02:20	callen	futile: obj-c's implementation is. ref-counting is generally runtime.
02:21	callen	Rust's implementation is compile-time for the various pointer types.
02:21	patchwork	Aha! well if they are using python then you have a lot of improvement to provide
02:21	callen	but anything that escapes to GC is runtime.
02:21	callen	patchwork: it's a bio company - Python ghetto extraordinaire.
02:21	futile	callen: well objc had ref-counting before ARC, and it was pretty terrible. but ARC made it basically act like free GC at compile-time only
02:21	patchwork	I increased our system by an order of magnitude by switching to clojure from python
02:21	patchwork	not to mention concurrency
02:21	callen	patchwork: increased...performance? not sure what you mean here.
02:21	patchwork	callen: Right : ) performance
02:22	callen	futile: a lot of obj-c is weird though, don't use it as a reference for how things like ref-counting behave in general.
02:22	futile	callen: oh
02:22	patchwork	Increased its general awesomeness as well
02:22	patchwork	decreased the codebase
02:22	callen	patchwork: our scaling problems don't yet center around software, it's more around complexity management and production.
02:22	futile	callen: isn't objc's refcounting model simple and good?
02:23	patchwork	callen: I bet. Lot's of data shunting back and forth I imagine
02:23	futile	besides the manual-labor aspect of it
02:23	patchwork	Our system was dog slow
02:23	patchwork	(well, once it got to a certain size of use)
02:24	futile	patchwork: wait, so you went from clojure to python, and that decreased the size and improved performance?
02:24	futile	patchwork: that sounds backwards.
02:24	patchwork	futile: other way
02:24	futile	oh nice
02:24	patchwork	python—> clojure
02:24	futile	yay
02:24	callen	patchwork: so much fucking data comes out of those sequencers. it's ridiculous.
02:24	patchwork	Yeah, remarkable improvement actually
02:24	futile	im pretty sold on clojure being the new ruby/python
02:25	callen	patchwork: part of it is a social thing, I'd really like to get the Gospel of Immutability into the heads of everybody writing code at my company.
02:25	patchwork	futile: The only deal is it's not good for scripts!
02:25	callen	it's a little hard to make those lessons stick in a language like Python.
02:25	callen	it's easier in languages like Java where you can make the whole class immutable and enforce it.
02:25	patchwork	callen: People have to burn themselves with concurrency to really understand why it matters
02:25	patchwork	Then it is like a godsend
02:26	futile	patchwork: that doesnt feel true for me
02:26	futile	patchwork: i love clojure's immutability only because its so much easier to reason about and write composable functions than it was in mutable-land (ruby/python)
02:27	patchwork	futile: I feel that is more just functional programming… but I guess clojure enforces that by being immutable
02:27	patchwork	You CAN'T modify your map inside the function, so you figure out a different way to do it!
02:27	futile	well ignoring functional programming, the fact that everything i receive and pass around is immutable, that makes it so much easier to know what the code im writing is going to do
02:28	futile	i guess its called referential transparency
02:28	futile	its scary that rich was on the fence about immutability for a long time before he settled on it
02:28	patchwork	futile: That is functional programming. Always returning the same thing when given the same args and not changing any args that are passed in
02:28	futile	imagine mutable clojure!
02:28	futile	patchwork: FP has too many definitions
02:28	patchwork	futile: Well there are atoms and refs : )
02:28	patchwork	futile: Ah. That is my definition
02:29	callen	Are you sure he was on the fence? And Rich did a lot to make mutability easy/safe/efficient.
02:29	patchwork	The mathy one
02:29	futile	callen: i read him say so in something recently
02:29	futile	some old interview or something
02:29	patchwork	Yeah if anything clojure provides sane ways to mutate stuff, rather than it just being the default implicit operation
02:29	patchwork	You have to WANT to mutate something, and be explicit about it
02:30	futile	i know a guy who knows a guy
02:31	patchwork	These guys, always saying stuff
02:32	futile	patchwork: you dont by any chance listen to music via local files do you?
02:32	patchwork	futile: I listen to all kinds
02:32	futile	patchwork: most people listen to spotify or pandora, i figured i was the only one who listens to music files on my actual harddrive
02:33	futile	(née sdd)
02:33	futile	er, (i mean sdd)
02:33	futile	patchwork: you on a mac?
02:33	patchwork	futile: yep
02:33	futile	PM me if you wanna try this app: https://www.dropbox.com/s/msyq0nwfzhvbhjq/Screen%20Shot%202013-08-27%20at%2012.24.05%20AM.png
02:33	futile	and if you dont, i wont take offense.
02:34	patchwork	Is it yours?
02:34	futile	yep
02:34	futile	been writing it in secret a couple weeks now
02:34	futile	im too unhappy with itunes lately.
02:34	patchwork	one of the best things to listen to on the internet: http://www.park.nl/park_cms/public/index.php?thisarticle=118
02:34	patchwork	I listened to it for 3 months straight one time
02:34	futile	whoa
02:34	callen	is there a variation on (time (...)) that returns the msecs as a number?
02:34	callen	instead of kicking it to the output.
02:35	callen	I'm trying to avoid writing a manual dilly.
02:35	futile	dilly, is that what they're called then?
02:35	callen	oh, with-out-str.
02:36	futile	but then you have to parse it, no?
02:36	futile	well if the goal is to avoid stdout then that works
02:36	callen	yes, and it dumps the result, which is unacceptable.
02:36	callen	Manual it is.
02:40	futile	welp, as soon as the new app icon comes in the email, ill call the app 1.0 and move on in life :)
02:40	futile	(for 5 minutes until i discover a bug and release an emergency 1.0.1)
02:41	patchwork	futile: You have it up somewhere? on github?
02:42	futile	yep patchwork. one sec
02:42	patchwork	Okay, what is the best way to put an infinite (loop […] …) in its own thread and have it accept stdin and stdout?
02:42	patchwork	in clojure?
02:43	patchwork	I should know this, somehow it hasn't come up before
02:45	callen	welp. I've misunderstood c.j.j again. time to go plundering.
02:49	futile	patchwork: https://github.com/sdegutis/bahamut
02:49	futile	oops hold on, link broken
02:49	futile	fixed.
02:53	futile	patchwork: ive used a (future) containing (while true...)
02:54	futile	patchwork: in the clojure client for zephyros, granted it was reading from a tcp socket not stdin, but it should work still
02:54	ambroseb_	can I find the default dispatch value for some multimethod programatically?
02:56	futile	ambroseb_: you mean get it as a callable fn?
02:56	ambroseb_	I want (multimethod-default mm-var) => :default
02:57	futile	oh. i dunno.
02:57	ambroseb_	probably need to call the MultiFn directly.
02:58	ambroseb_	well defaultDispatchVal on MultiFn is public, which is promising.
03:03	callen	http://i.imgur.com/gLV7nmt.png
03:03	callen	how's that look for a SQL query logging library output?
03:04	callen	futile: ^^
03:04	callen	ddellacosta: ^^
03:04	futile	callen: fancy
03:04	callen	it's real too. that's actually hooking into c.j.j :)
03:04	callen	alter-var-root ftwwwwww
03:04	futile	whoa
03:04	TEttinger	how big is the DB?
03:05	ddellacosta	callen: sorry, what are you asking me to evaluate? The 100 ms? Pretty snappy
03:05	callen	TEttinger: don't bike-shed my sqlite database or I will plonk you with a smelly fish.
03:05	futile	callen: does your hack depend on implementation details? :P
03:05	callen	ddellacosta: ...no! I'm writing a SQL query logging library.
03:05	ddellacosta	callen: oh, haha, sorry. Looks nice. :-)
03:05	TEttinger	callen, it is purdy
03:06	futile	callen: so, you just plug in your lib, and this gets output automatically to stdout?
03:06	callen	futile: (decorate!) -> boom magic.
03:06	futile	nice
03:06	callen	yeah baby. >:D
03:06	ddellacosta	callen: you gotta give me a pass, I was deep within test mock building meditation mode
03:06	callen	I'm all about the evil hacks.
03:06	callen	ddellacosta: oh, sorry for disrupting :(
03:06	ddellacosta	callen: no, not at all! If I didn't want to look, I wouldn't. ;-)
03:07	ddellacosta	in fact, I'm having trouble figuring out why some namespace changes aren't getting picked up…
03:09	callen	hrm. I really do not like trawling c.j.j
03:09	futile	woot, 0.9 is official.
03:09	futile	can a project ever officially be "done"?
03:09	callen	futile: yeah. happens all the time to Clojure libs.
03:09	futile	im tired of getting new feature requests. id like my other project to just be done, and everyone be happy with that.
03:10	futile	callen: ah that makes sense then, libs vs apps
03:10	futile	apps cant ever just be done, but libs usually are.
03:10	ddellacosta	callen: yeah, c.j.j has some…messy bits, methinks
03:10	futile	ddellacosta: why are you in japan?
03:10	futile	that seems kind afar
03:10	futile	*kinda far
03:11	ddellacosta	futile: long story, but short version is: wanted to experience living in another country and liked Japan. Then went off the deep end and married a Japanese woman. Not that I'm complaining. :-)
03:11	futile	heh
03:11	callen	ddellacosta: it also has a million and one entrypoints for queries.
03:12	callen	that all get dispatched independently to the JDBC layer
03:12	callen	so I've gotta override, decorate, time, and log multiple vars
03:12	callen	all with different argument patterns and destructuring
03:12	futile	scary
03:12	futile	callen: does your lib work with datomic?
03:12	futile	;)
03:12	callen	I'm going to end the night writing murder on the walls in blood.
03:12	ddellacosta	callen: you mean, all the different ways you can insert and update and whatnot? yeah, I've taken to using it my own special way, using my own special conventions. But I can imagine trying to intercept stuff could be messy.
03:12	callen	futile: it could, but there's probably not much point.
03:13	futile	callen: why are you going to write a group of crows on the walls?
03:13	callen	ddellacosta: the problem is the interception, yeah.
03:13	callen	ddellacosta: there's no universal query executor fn as far as I can tell.
03:13	callen	or if there is, the bastard is buried
03:14	ddellacosta	callen: based on my periodic cursory delvings into that codebase, that is my understanding as well.
03:14	Raynes	callen: Goodness, callen. God's work? :p
03:14	callen	Raynes: why not?
03:15	Raynes	Too bad we couldn't stop the clojurescript formula.
03:15	ddellacosta	futile: dork. ;-)
03:15	callen	Raynes: speaking of god's work: http://i.imgur.com/gLV7nmt.png
03:15	ddellacosta	Raynes: they have a CLJS formula too!? wtf
03:15	callen	Raynes: pretty query logging lib :)
03:15	Raynes	Why the homebrew folks want to shit on our lawn immediately after picking up the turds they left behind before.
03:15	Raynes	Eludes me.
03:15	callen	ddellacosta: dude. we fought that battle and lost it so we could win the war.
03:15	Raynes	David Nolen and Chas Emerick both contributed "wat no"s to that discussion and they still did it.
03:15	Raynes	:(
03:16	ddellacosta	lame
03:16	ddellacosta	but, not totally surprising
03:16	ddellacosta	but lame
03:16	callen	two weeks of battling those bastards. shakes head
03:17	callen	Raynes: is pretty, da?
03:17	Raynes	Yes, I am pretty.
03:17	futile	homebrew ftw
03:17	callen	Raynes: no mah lib :(
03:17	patchwork	futile: Looks like a labor of love
03:18	futile	patchwork: oh?
03:18	futile	patchwork: i take it you tried it then
03:18	futile	patchwork: also, is that the polite way of saying "this is not my style but obviously you like it"? :P
03:19	callen	omg this library is organized like a graph theoretic pathological case of connected nodes
03:19	callen	WTF IS GOING ON
03:19	futile	hhaha
03:19	patchwork	futile: No, I recognize when a project is made because you want it specifically that way
03:21	ddellacosta	wtf, I can see vars in my namespace, and I have two tests defined w/deftest, but clojure.test keeps tell me "Ran 0 tests containing 0 assertions"
03:21	callen	look at this: https://github.com/clojure/java.jdbc/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/java/jdbc.clj#L709-L735
03:21	callen	just look at it.
03:22	callen	why are update and insert using totally different functions?
03:22	callen	there's no rhyme or reason to this, this is like a nihilist's trap for snaring programmers.
03:22	ddellacosta	callen: well, update seems nice enough to me
03:22	callen	ddellacosta: and if everything used execute! like update! does, we wouldn't have a problem :\|
03:22	futile	patchwork: yeah im just tired of the Mac's "look and feel" changing every hour.
03:22	futile	plus i dont even like the way it looks or feels
03:23	futile	(if thats what you mean)
03:23	ddellacosta	callen: yeah, it's funny, 'cause my own personal convention w/c.j.j is to use c.j.j.s helpers with everything, and either query or execute! to actually run stuff
03:23	ddellacosta	helpers = dsl
03:24	callen	ddellacosta: that's a really good idea, but I can't expect all my users to be that wise wrt design.
03:24	ddellacosta	callen: yeah. :-(
03:25	callen	I basically need every single test case in c.j.j to generate a pretty-pretty log line
03:25	callen	I left my booze at work. I've made a huge mistake.
03:25	callen	oh yeesh, it's midnight already. I'll wrap this up tomorrow.
03:25	futile	midnight?
03:25	futile	2pm here
03:25	callen	I am not defeated...merely resting.
03:25	futile	callen: Ha
03:25	futile	famous last words
03:26	futile	callen: do what ive done: stay up finishing it until 9am
03:26	futile	and then take a 30 min nap
03:26	callen	futile: I work for a living and I'm officially moving out of my apartment in the morning.
03:26	callen	so...no.
03:26	futile	oh, where to?
03:26	callen	MV -> SF
03:26	callen	like all young men my age end up doing.
03:27	futile	sigh
03:27	futile	SF is gonna get overpopulated one of these days
03:28	callen	it already is. the rent is horrendous.
03:28	ddellacosta	seriously, why is clojure.test/run-tests not picking up my tests, but they are obviously loaded into my repl, and I can run them individually? I have never seen this ever
03:28	callen	like 3500 for a single bedroom apartment in SOMA
03:28	callen	ddellacosta: typical lein repl?
03:28	ddellacosta	callen: yah
03:29	ddellacosta	I feel like I'm going nuts
03:29	callen	ddellacosta: have you done a (use 'ns :reload-all) ?
03:29	ddellacosta	I mean, I went so far as to restart my repl
03:29	callen	(use '[clojure.tools.namespace.repl :only (refresh)])
03:29	callen	oh shit.
03:29	callen	you restarted your repl and it didn't pick up the tests?
03:29	ddellacosta	callen: I was using c.t.n.r, but my project is not clean enough, and it was barfing from weird java memory errors
03:29	futile	ddellacosta: accidental test selectors?
03:29	futile	oh
03:30	ddellacosta	callen: no, it didn't. really freaking weird, right?
03:30	ddellacosta	futile: what do you mean?
03:30	callen	...yeah.
03:30	futile	dunno
03:30	callen	anyway, I need to go to bed. bye all :)
03:30	futile	bye
03:30	ddellacosta	callen: sleep well! good luck with the move. ;-)
03:30	futile	ddellacosta: its probably accidental test selectors
03:30	ddellacosta	futile: sorry, what does "test selector" mean?
03:30	futile	ddellacosta: dunno
03:30	futile	ddellacosta: er, i mean, its a leiningen feature
03:30	ddellacosta	what
03:31	futile	ddellacosta: it filters out your tests or somethign
03:31	ddellacosta	ah, hrm
03:31	futile	sounds like it could be related.
03:31	futile	check your project.clj for them
03:31	futile	maybe someone else put it there and you didnt know the feature existed so it silently did its job too well
03:31	futile	maybe.
03:32	ddellacosta	futile: well, I'll check into it, but it seems very strange
03:32	futile	k
03:32	ddellacosta	futile: and I think it's more likely I did something stupid, haha
03:32	futile	right.
03:32	futile	select isnt broken.
03:33	futile	http://pragmatictips.com/26
03:33	ddellacosta	never saw that, cool
03:33	ddellacosta	yeah, exactly, that.
03:37	futile	what's a good freenode channel for asking advice on web ui libs?
03:38	Raynes	Javascript specific?
03:38	futile	I suppose everything compiles down to or uses JS.
03:38	futile	But yeah, I mean dynamic widgets.
03:38	futile	maybe jquery, maybe cappuccino.. dunno yet
03:39	Raynes	You could possibly ask in a Javascript channel, but stackoverflow might be a better choice.
03:39	futile	hmm, cant do SO
03:39	futile	thanks
03:40	amalloy	can't ask on SO? whyever not?
03:40	Raynes	I imagine because his question doesn't have a clear answer.
03:40	Raynes	SO will bite your head off if there is more than one definitive answer for a question.
03:41	futile	amalloy: never mind
03:43	ddellacosta	ahhaha I am so stupid, I wrote a fixture that never ran the function that was getting passed into it
03:43	ddellacosta	that's why. d'oh
03:43	futile	:)
03:43	futile	howd you solve it ddellacosta? binary search?
03:43	ddellacosta	times like these I wish I was pairing. ;-/
03:44	ddellacosta	good 'ole comment out and then uncomment until it breaks
03:44	ddellacosta	I suppose that is a form of binary search
03:44	futile	im not good at pairing. its always slower for me, not faster.
03:44	ddellacosta	futile: I find it is really person-specific for me. I've had horrible pairing experiences and excellent pairing experiences.
03:45	futile	ddellacosta: hmm
03:45	ddellacosta	it's not easy though. TDD comes naturally to me, pairing does not. If we're comparing agile/extreme programming practices.
03:46	ddellacosta	but pairing is definitely excellent for this kind of situation: I just burned half an hour futzing about when someone else probably would have spotted it right away.
03:46	futile	ddellacosta: ive found that most of the time ive paired, my pair gets way too focused on unimportant details, which slows us down.. and we never get around to discussing the high-level important details because he/she usually thinks too implementation-specific
03:47	ddellacosta	futile: if that is happening consistently, then you need to be pro-active about making it a point of discussion yourself. The thing about pairing is that each pair has to take complete responsibility for any issues that arise, or else it doesn't work.
03:47	ddellacosta	futile: which is why it's so hard--pairing is really a psychological challenge for many of us.
03:48	ddellacosta	I know it has been for me at times!
03:48	futile	yeah
03:49	futile	welp, time to go back to the building with broken windows and pretend like im making things better instead of worse
03:49	ddellacosta	futile: good luck. ;-)
03:51	futile	this is a good read http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2005/06/the-broken-window-theory.html
04:18	patchwork	How do I pass an arg to a lein task? So: lein trampoline cljsbuild repl-listen :repl-listen-port 44444
04:18	patchwork	That doesn't work
04:18	patchwork	even though that is an option to the repl-listen task
04:18	patchwork	(according to the code)
04:52	AWizzArd	Hello RegExperts. I have (re-seq #"\W(aa\|bb\|cc\|xx\|yy\|zz)" " aa or bb/cc"), and this matches all the words I want to find, aa, bb and cc. However, I want to make sure that those words are not part of another word (i.e. substrings).
04:53	AWizzArd	So, to protect it from finding ccc as a word I add ($\|\W) at the end: (re-seq #"\W(aa\|bb\|cc\|xx\|yy\|zz)($\|\W)" " aa or bb/cc")
04:54	AWizzArd	Unfortunately now cc does not get detected anymore, because of the \W. There is no non-alphanumeric char after cc.
04:54	AWizzArd	The regexp engine seems to not try the $ instead, which follows the cc. Any ideas how I could make it match the cc at the end, without matching cc when it is a substring?
04:55	mpenet	,(re-seq #"\baa\b\|\bcc\b" "aaasdf aa bb asdf sdfbbb cc ccsdf")
04:55	clojurebot	("aa" "cc")
04:57	mpenet	hmm doesn't work with the / example of yours, depending on if you want to include or exclude it, not sure
05:00	AWizzArd	The example is indeed the correct input. In my example above I want to detect words such as aa, bb, cc and so on, but only if on their left/right side is no alphanumeric char. The beginning and end of string are also fine.
05:02	amalloy	AWizzArd: don't use \W for this
05:02	amalloy	the ($\|\W) at the end of bb is consuming the / character, and so there's no \W for cc to start with
05:02	amalloy	what you want is \b, a zero-width assertion
05:04	AWizzArd	I will try that.
05:08	AWizzArd	mpenet and amalloy: good idea, the \b is working nicely.
05:10	mpenet	any core.async developer present atm?
05:16	ddellacosta	mpenet: what do want to ask?
05:17	ddellacosta	how do I apply and to a collection of boolean values?
05:18	ddellacosta	ah, google to the rescue
05:18	ddellacosta	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2891707/reduce-or-apply-using-logical-functions-in-clojure
05:18	Apage43	ddellacosta: Use every?.
05:19	mpenet	ddellacosta: about the current restrictions with the use of nil on channels: if there is an obvious reason for it's current status, if that's in discussion, and if it's the case what are the alternatives
05:20	mpenet	ddellacosta: more context here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/pF9FEP7b77U
05:20	ddellacosta	mpenet: ah, yeah, saw that, which means you know as much as I do. Sorry. :-(
05:23	ddellacosta	Is this the way to do this? ,(every? identity '(false true false false))
05:23	ddellacosta	,(every? identity '(false true false false))
05:23	clojurebot	false
05:23	ddellacosta	not sure what that second arg should be
05:23	Apage43	yup
05:23	Apage43	identity works if you're just testing that the whole collection is truthy
05:24	Apage43	,(every? identity [true 1 "whee" :bucket])
05:24	clojurebot	true
05:24	ddellacosta	Apage43: yeah, that's it. What I wanted to do at first was (apply and [true false true false]) essentially.
05:45	silasdavis	in laser I'm trying to compose a base template defined with defdocument with other bits of transformed html
05:46	silasdavis	the defdocument takes some arguments so I can insert things that way, but in another place I wanted to transform the output of the defdocument by threading it into another document form
05:46	silasdavis	but to make this work it seems like I'd have to parse the original document as a string first, which seems wrong
05:47	silasdavis	i think I'm probably working at the wrong level - I tried playing with fragments, but also had errors using those as input to the document function. Does anyone know how I should be doing this?
05:58	NeedMoreDesu	Do you know that you can suddenly have stack overflow using chuncked lists?
05:59	NeedMoreDesu	I concatenated them many times randomly. Since it's lazy, it gives the result. But when you try to do something with it...
05:59	amalloy	NeedMoreDesu: well, chunkiness isn't relevant, it's the laziness
06:01	NeedMoreDesu	Why it is written that way you can have SO?
06:02	NeedMoreDesu	http://ideone.com/5EzIkJ
06:05	amalloy	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2946764/recursive-function-causing-a-stack-overflow
06:10	_dw	hello. anyone here to clarify why (= bytearray1 bytearray2) always returns false? I thought it'd compare by content, not by identity. am I mistaken?
06:11	NeedMoreDesu	Thanks, that solves the riddle.
06:11	hyPiRion	_dw: Because it's a java array. Clojure runs .equal on the objects unless they are primitives/arrays, in which case they return true if they are identical
06:13	hyPiRion	,(import 'java.util.Arrays)
06:13	clojurebot	java.util.Arrays
06:13	francis_wolke	Has anyone done anything with lein-droid recently? I'm running into some undocumented issues while following along with the tutorial.
06:13	hyPiRion	,(Arrays/equals ^bytes (into-array Byte/TYPE [1 2 3]) (into-array Byte/TYPE [1 2 3]))
06:13	clojurebot	true
06:13	_dw	thanks, hyPiRion. anything more "idiomatic" than (= (vec b1) (vec b2)?
06:13	hyPiRion	^ _dw that's the most efficient one
06:13	_dw	thanks!
06:14	hyPiRion	If you can get rid of arrays in the first place that'd be more idiomatic, but of course there are cases when that's impossible :)
06:14	hyPiRion	Just note the type hint, ^bytes.
06:14	_dw	I could cast them to vectors, should I prefer that?
06:15	hyPiRion	Well, it's certainly easier, and if performance is not an issue, sure thing
06:15	_dw	I see
06:16	noidi	To clarify hyPiRion's answer, `=` treats arrays just like other objects. It's Java's definition of `.equals` for arrays as an identity comparison that's causing the confusion.
06:16	silasdavis	Raynes, how should I go about composing fragments in laser?
06:16	noidi	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8777257/equals-vs-arrays-equals-in-java
06:17	noidi	here's what `=` uses for comparisons https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Util.java#L24
06:18	_dw	Wasn't really aware it isn't a built-in type
06:18	_dw	This makes sense
06:41	ro_st	is it possible to give individual multimethod implementations their own doc strings? if so, how?
06:42	ambrosebs	ro_st: no, I just use comments.
06:42	ro_st	ok, thanks!
06:45	squidz	seangrov`: yesterday I asked about a problem I had translating some javascript into function clojurescript. Do you have time to help me?
06:47	squidz	seangrov`: here was the link http://jsfiddle.net/N4E5c/3/ where the first javascript function there is rather iterative and I can't think of how to translate it to functional clojure(script)
06:58	murtaza52	Hi can anyone help me understand what is the utility of go blocks without channels
06:58	murtaza52	I mean what is different in placing a piece of code in a go block, then outside it.
07:02	grandy_	Hi all,
07:03	grandy_	I am new to clojure and unable to resolve this : http://pastebin.com/VCTeCBQv
07:07	ambrosebs	grandy_: what happens without the macro?
07:07	ambrosebs	there is nothing wrong with the macro
07:08	grandy_	I mean this is a dummy macro i was trying to test..
07:08	grandy_	in REPL seems to work fine
07:09	grandy_	trying to understand the concept
07:09	ambrosebs	right, it's something else that's throwing the exception.
07:10	ambrosebs	can you show more code?
07:59	noncom	is here anyone who tried clojuring with JMonkeyEngine3 ?
08:08	noncom	is there a way in clojurescript to pass a js function as a value? for example, can i store something like '.moveToTop in a map like (def m {:a '.moveToTop}) and then do ((:a m) someJsObject) ?
08:08	noncom	i had no fortune with that yet
08:10	scgilardi	you could try (def m {:a #(.moveToTop %)})
08:22	dark4eg_	Hello
08:23	dark4eg_	Please help me. (s/replace "a b a" #"a\|b" {"a" "1" "b" "2"}), #"a\|b" - wtf? #"a\|b" - сan I generate this structure programmatically?
08:25	jkkramer	dark4eg_: that would be a regular expression. see the re-pattern function
08:28	dark4eg_	jkkramer: thx. I have a list of keys map, i get to generate re-expression. where to dig?)
08:30	jkkramer	dark4eg_: the functions re-pattern, keys, clojure.string/join,java.util.regex.Pattern/quote may all come in handy
08:33	dark4eg_	jkkramer: thx
10:22	andrewmcveigh\|wo	Did someone write a cljs port of clj-time yet? Can't find one on google.
10:25	rkneufeld	That'll be an interesting one.
10:25	stuartsierra	Yeah since clj-time is a thin wrapper around JODA-Time.
10:25	rkneufeld	My thought exactly. It'll be …fun, imitating an entire API.
10:25	andrewmcveigh\|wo	Yeah, sure... I suppose I didn't really mean a "port"
10:26	rkneufeld	Something cross-platform would be great though
10:26	stuartsierra	Yeah, an actual pure-Clojure port of JODA
10:26	andrewmcveigh\|wo	I think I heard some talk about doing it the other week/month. Now I could use it.
10:27	rkneufeld	That'd be a fun little project. If it isn't done by the time I'm done the Cookbook maybe I'll dig in there.
10:32	andrewmcveigh\|wo	Doesn't seem like too much work to immitate clj-time API. Joda-Time on the other hand, not sure I'd like to bark up that tree!
10:33	Anderkent	rkneufeld: I don't think 'little' is the right adjective
10:33	stuartsierra	Not sure how you could do one without the other.
10:34	Anderkent	that depends on whether you just want clj-time/now, or all of it
10:34	glosoli	where can I find some sort of Clojure convention/idiomatic ways of doing things like accessing elements in map and so on
10:35	rkneufeld	Anderkent: that's all perspective. Working on the Cookbook is going to take the better part of a year. A few weeks of Friday time, evenings and weekends is "little" in comparison ;)
10:35	`cbp	glosoli: joy of clojure
10:36	andrewmcveigh\|wo	Well, of course I only need a few bits of clj-time now, but it's not the first time I wish I had it in cljs.
10:36	`cbp	glosoli: or just read some opensource :P
10:36	Anderkent	glosoli: the clojure koans, maybe? https://github.com/functional-koans/clojure-koans
10:36	Anderkent	disclaimer: i haven't tried it
10:37	stuartsierra	glosoli: http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Library+Coding+Standards
10:37	rkneufeld	andrewmcveigh: Another option is to develop a similar sets of API that are not drop-in equivalent to clj-time. Base the JS version off of something like http://momentjs.com/ and base the Clojure version on …X
10:37	glosoli	thanks ! :)
10:37	Anderkent	also, accessing stuff in map is `get-in`, just in case you want this particular answer not reading material
10:38	floatboth	Is there an easy way to buffer a lazy-seq? I have something like (map parse (line-seq lines)) and I want to store the parsed lines into Redis. To speed up Redis I/O, I want to use pipelining, but I don't want to pipeline the whole seq, I want to repeatedly take some items and send them
10:38	glosoli	Anderkent :The dev clojure links states it is keyword-first syntax to access items in object
10:38	rplaca	rkneufeld: dove into the pedestal tutorial yesterday (and continuing today). Really nice work. Thanks!
10:38	Anderkent	wrapping them in functions that abstract the map (i.e. (defn get-user-metadata [state user] (get-in state [:user user :private :metadata])) ) a bonus :)
10:38	glosoli	hmm interesting
10:38	rkneufeld	rplaca: that's all Brenton–I'm just the caretaker for that chunk of work ;)
10:38	Anderkent	glosoli: ah. Depends if it's a nested structure or basic modification. I think if it's the basic access that you ask about the clojure cheatsheet might be useful
10:38	rkneufeld	rplaca: But I'll pass it along
10:39	Anderkent	glosoli: http://clojure.org/cheatsheet
10:39	rplaca	rkneufeld: well to both of you then. please do pass it on to Brenton.
10:39	glosoli	hmm I have this one, I just found odd when someone told me that keyword-first syntax is idiomatic way of accessing items in maps, but seems they were right
10:39	rplaca	hoping to have some cool stuff to show you by conj time
10:40	Anderkent	glosoli: it usually is because it's shorter than (get map :keyword).
10:40	stuartsierra	glosoli: Keyword-first is idiomatic when you know, at the time of writing the code, what the keys are (e.g. a structured data type).
10:41	w\|t	thanks
10:42	`cbp	it also prevents null pointer exceptions :P
10:42	glosoli	Anderkent: what I was used to doing was (obj :keyword).. but now I realise that's wrong
10:42	andrewmcveigh\|wo	rkneufeld: Well, I think I'll implement what I need now, and see how deep that takes me ;-)
10:44	AWizzArd	In my profiles.clj I added the dep [org.clojure/core.typed "0.1.24"]. Now a “lein deps” gives me => java.util.zip.ZipException: error in opening zip file. Ideas?
10:45	squidz	whats the easiest way to test clojruescript
10:45	coventry	Have you tried removing that jar from ~/.m2 so that lein will download it again?
10:46	rkneufeld	squidz: IMO, code that is both valid Clojure and ClojureScript. Though that excludes an platform specific interop, to which I don't have a good answer.
10:46	AWizzArd	I removed the .jar from my ~/.m2 and tried it again. I also removed it from my local Artifactory.
10:47	Anderkent	AWizzArd: lein1 or lein2?
10:47	AWizzArd	lein2
10:47	Anderkent	last time I saw this message was someone using lein1 on a lein2 project.clj
10:47	Anderkent	hm.
10:47	squidz	hm, yeah unfortunately my code has some js interop so i'm not sure what the easiest way to test it would be
10:48	stuartsierra	squidz: cemerick ported clojure.test to ClojureScript, I think
10:48	Anderkent	AWizzArd: can you post the full stack trace somewhere? (refheap/gist)
10:49	Anderkent	also your profile/project file, if you can.
10:49	coventry	Maybe one of the other jars core.typed pulls in is corrupted. I would test this by moving ~/.m2 out of the way temporarily to do lein deps from a fresh start.
10:49	ambroseb_	ls
10:49	lazybot	boot data home media mnt opt src tmp usr var
10:49	ambroseb_	whoops. FWIW 0.1.24 seems to work for me.
10:50	ambroseb_	but i didn't clear my full .m2, just that jar.
10:50	stuartsierra	haha
10:50	Anderkent	ambroseb_: I do that all the time too. Shame on ubuntu on not deriving window focus from where I'm looking
10:51	ambroseb_	:)
10:52	`cbp	xmonad clearly does that
10:52	`cbp	in less than 1k lines of code~!
10:52	Anderkent	I blame Unity.
10:53	AWizzArd	Killed my .m2 dir, now it seems to work.
10:53	AWizzArd	Must have been some corruption in there.
10:53	AWizzArd	Thx
10:53	coventry	No worries.
11:09	squidz	ls -la
11:09	lazybot	bin dev mnt root sbin src srv swap tmp usr var
11:10	coventry	Any suggestions for a good java-for-clojure-programmers resource? Maybe something less focused on java the language, more about aspects of its internals, data structures and libraries which are useful in a clojure context?
11:11	glosoli	coventry: Like more about Core of Java and JVM
11:11	glosoli	?
11:14	coventry	Not exactly. For instance, I'm looking for somewhere I would learn that that java collections are weakly typed, characters are two bytes and "lein repl" starts java with optimization options which confuse criterium.
11:15	glosoli	coventry: hmm I would like such thing too
11:16	glosoli	coventry: I have tried reading Core Java books, got through Volume I, was booring
11:18	gvickers	coventry: yea that would be very useful
11:22	Anderkent	coventry: not as far as I know, unfortunately
11:23	coventry	I might take a look at _Well-Grounded Java Developer_. It mentions polyglotism in the subtitle, and has a section on clojure, at least.
11:25	rurumate	Is it just me, or is something wrong with destructuring?
11:25	Anderkent	probably both
11:25	rurumate	(let [{a :a b :b :as m :or {a "a0" b "b0"}} {}] m) returns {}
11:26	rurumate	(let [{a :a b :b :as m :or {a "a0" b "b0"}} {}] a) returns "a0"
11:26	stuartsierra	coventry: The original Sun Java Tutorials are good, in my opinion.
11:26	rurumate	seems inconsistent..
11:26	coventry	Thanks, stuartsierra.
11:27	Anderkent	rurumate: the :as form simply binds the original form to a new name
11:27	rurumate	Anderkent: so the :or has no effect on it?
11:28	Anderkent	Nothing in the destructuring form has any effect on it.
11:28	rurumate	Anderkent: grok
11:28	Anderkent	it's not 'construct these bindings and put them in a map as X', it's 'take original form, name it X, then destructure it'
11:30	Anderkent	Is there a more intuitive way of removing nils from a collection than (keep identity ...) ?
11:31	llasram	Anderkent: (remove nil? ...) ?
11:31	`cbp	(remove nil?)
11:31	hyPiRion	heh
11:32	llasram	Jinx!
11:32	seangrov`	squidz: Still around and looking for help?
11:32	seangrov`	I thought dnolen had given you some advice on it
11:32	hyPiRion	hrm
11:32	hyPiRion	,(keep identity [1 2 true false nil :quux])
11:32	clojurebot	(1 2 true false :quux)
11:33	seangrov`	Do you have a pre-existing cljs project I can fork and experiment with?
11:33	hyPiRion	oh, I thought it was the other way around. Serves me right
11:33	Anderkent	hyPiRion: keep only discards nils, it's not filter :)
11:34	Anderkent	or was that the 'other way around' bit? My bad.
11:34	seangrov`	Keep:"Returns a lazy sequence of the non-nil results of (f item). Note, this means false return values will be included."
11:34	seangrov`	,(doc keep)
11:34	clojurebot	"([f coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of the non-nil results of (f item). Note, this means false return values will be included. f must be free of side-effects."
11:34	seangrov`	botsnack
11:34	hyPiRion	Anderkent: yeah, I thought it just discarded false. I just forgot what it discarded
11:34	seangrov`	~botsnack
11:34	clojurebot	botsnack is newline
11:34	seangrov`	Alright, no botsnack
11:35	hyPiRion	~botsnack
11:35	clojurebot	botsnack is scoobysnack
11:35	hyPiRion	clojurebot: stupid
11:35	clojurebot	Excuse me?
11:35	llasram	Aww
11:35	llasram	Poor clojurebot
11:35	`cbp	clojurebot: botsnack
11:35	clojurebot	botsnack is forget botsnack
11:37	w\|t	clojurebot, botsnack
11:37	clojurebot	botsnack is scoobysnack
11:38	hyPiRion	poor boy, he's gone mental
11:40	squidz	squidz: yeah I still need help. I may have not seen what dnolen said
11:40	squidz	here is the link again http://jsfiddle.net/N4E5c/3/
11:41	squidz	seangrov`: i meant that to you and not to me of course
11:41	seangrov`	What does it do from a high-level?
11:41	seangrov`	And you said you were using the strokes library, is your project on github so I don't have to setup a dummy project locally?
11:45	squidz	from a high level that function manipulates an array of maps so that that there are even numbers of maps for given fields
11:45	squidz	it shouldnt depend on strokes, I just need to somehow manipulate the data assuming it is not a javascript array of objects but instead a clojure array of maps
11:46	squidz	seangrov`: the exmple of the data is in the link i posted
11:47	squidz	the two commented entries in the data should be created by a clojure function. That function will instead fill in default values, or in our case the :value field in the map should be set to zero
11:50	seangrov`	Ok
11:56	TimMc	clojurebot, forget botsnack \|is\| forget botsnack
11:56	clojurebot	I forgot that botsnack is forget botsnack
11:56	TimMc	clojurebot, forget botsnack \|is\| newline
11:56	clojurebot	I forgot that botsnack is newline
11:58	seangrov`	squidz: Seems like this could be a much nicer example to work with
12:00	squidz	seangrov`: what example?
12:00	seangrov`	The example you gave, it's unclear where the interpolated data comes from
12:01	squidz	yeah that example isn't from me
12:01	seangrov`	Well, you're the one asking for help :P
12:02	seangrov`	How is the interpolated data calculated?
12:02	squidz	yeah soembody else had the problem in javascript and I have the problem in cljourescript. That is supposed to be the solution but I don't really see how I can translate that first javascript function to clojurescript
12:02	squidz	the value will always be zero
12:02	squidz	and there should be an equal number of dates for each group
12:02	coventry	Where are you stuck with the translation?
12:02	seangrov`	You said the two commented out rows should be added: //{key:'Group2',value:12,date:'04/23/12'},
12:03	squidz	no the values should be zero, sorry
12:03	squidz	just the dates should remain so that there are equal numbers of dates for each group
12:03	seangrov`	I see, ok
12:04	seangrov`	Should there be an equal number of dates, or should there be the same dates for every group?
12:05	squidz	all groups should have the same dates
12:05	seangrov`	Alright, that's not too bad
12:06	squidz	so if grp1 has two dates and grp2 two has one date, it is assumed that the one date is shared, and an adittional entry should be made for grp2 so that they again have the same dates
12:06	squidz	*an additional map should be made for grp1
12:06	seangrov`	Sure, btu if Group1 has two dates, and Group2 has two dates, and neither of them are the same, then they should both end up with 4
12:07	squidz	yes exactly
12:07	squidz	so that the maximum coverage of dates is provided
12:16	seangrov`	squidz: https://www.refheap.com/18069
12:17	seangrov`	Example output: https://www.refheap.com/18070
12:19	gfredericks	clojure.core/realized? with lazy seqs is kind of misleading
12:19	seangrov`	Seems to do the trick
12:19	gfredericks	to n00bs at least
12:21	dnolen	squidz: I solved this yesteday http://gist.github.com/swannodette/6355478
12:22	dnolen	squidz: I'm not sure if dates will fall in the middle requiring padding around, I noticed that each pad entry must have a different day.
12:22	dnolen	squidz: anyways I think this version is way easier to understand than the JS you posted yesterday ;)
12:22	seangrov`	Yeah, that js is crazy
12:24	squidz	dnolen: oh sorry I didn't see your reply I may have left the office right before you sent it
12:25	dnolen	squidz: i didn't send it since you weren't around
12:25	squidz	oh okay I see well thank you both for your help. I really wanted a clear idea on how I could do it in clojurescript and thanks to yall I have two good examples. That should be more than enough for me. Thank you both
12:26	squidz	when I saw that javascript my head was spinning for some reason. it was very iterative
12:27	squidz	thanks
12:30	dnolen	squidz: my head was spinning too
12:31	jtoy	are there size limitations with atoms?I am adding integers to an atom vector and it does with OOM when I only have 2k items on it,
12:34	jtoy	or is this the wrong user case for an atom? Im just using it as a queue
12:35	amacdougall	Curious about this as well. In Joy of Clojure, they implemented a queue using Agents — is that the standard technique?
12:36	seangrov`	,(count (let [queue (atom [])] (dotimes [n 3000] (swap! queue conj n)) queue))
12:36	clojurebot	#<UnsupportedOperationException java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: count not supported on this type: Atom>
12:36	seangrov`	,(count @(let [queue (atom [])] (dotimes [n 3000] (swap! queue conj n)) queue))
12:36	clojurebot	3000
12:38	opqdonut	amacdougall: I guess standard would be to use a vector atom
12:40	Anderkent	opqdonut: you cannot safely pop from a vector atom
12:40	Anderkent	amacdougall: yes, agents are pretty much a perfect fit for a shared queue
12:42	jtoy	so use agent instead of atom for a queue? is that correct?
12:42	Anderkent	jtoy: how many threads are you running? if a lot, you might have many of them trying to update the same atom at the same time and thus keeping size-of-vector * number of threads in memory
12:42	jtoy	Anderkent: I have not changed any threads sizes, everything is default currently
12:43	Anderkent	jtoy: as in you're feeding it data from a single thread?
12:43	Anderkent	that shouldn't happen, are you sure it's not something else eating your memories?
12:43	jtoy	Anderkent: yes, i am feeding in data from the repl, just testing my code
12:43	jtoy	im sure,
12:43	noncom	does anyone know, when requiring a namespace, does clojure look for the (ns) macro in the file's text, or does it simply try to execute the code inside the text file?
12:43	Anderkent	jtoy: ah. The repl keeps history for you, which possibly references objects that would otherwise be GCd?
12:44	jtoy	Anderkent: my code is this: (def users-queue (atom [])) ; (defn add-to-users-queue! [id] (reset! users-queue (conj @users-queue id))) ; then i call add-to-users-queue! ~ 3k times
12:44	jtoy	Anderkent: I tried on a brand new repl
12:44	`cbp	there should be a when-seq-let macro :P
12:44	Anderkent	jtoy: as to your agents question, if you need pop then you can't use atoms - there's no way to do a 'read, modify, save' loop and extract a value from the middle of it unless you maually do a compare-and-set! loop
12:45	seangrov`	jtoy: Why reset! and not swap! ?
12:45	jtoy	this was the pop! i wrote: https://www.refheap.com/18071 didnt get to test it yet
12:45	Anderkent	jtoy: you can either use agents, if you don't mind being asynchronous, or refs and transactions
12:46	jtoy	seangrov`: i just started using agents, im still learnign the proper way
12:47	Anderkent	jtoy: both your functions are not thread safe. If something else modifies the queue inb etween your @queue and (reset!), you will overwrite that information
12:47	Anderkent	jtoy: also your code works for me: https://www.refheap.com/18073
12:48	coventry	Yes it works for me, too. Was thinking to run it on clojurebot, but didn't want to risk crashing him. :-)
12:48	jtoy	Anderkent: mine dies at 2016 every time :)
12:49	Anderkent	can you paste the repl output exactly? and are you possibly running some weird jvm options? (-xMx=2m :P)
12:49	opqdonut	Anderkent: do you mean that I can't both pop and return the popped element? yeah that's a problem.
12:50	Anderkent	opqdonut: yes, exactly. It's not a 'problem', it's a dealbreaker for a queue :P
12:50	technomancy	hugod: would it be crazy for criterium to try to check for tiered compilation and warn if it's off?
12:51	jtoy	I think i see why
12:51	hugod	technomancy: probably a good idea - should be simple enough to detect
12:52	jtoy	i changed for to doseq for inserting the ids
12:52	llasram	If you want a concurrent, non-persistent queue, just use the task-appropriate java.util.concurrent queue
12:52	llasram	That's what the Clojure standard library does itself
12:53	jtoy	llasram: how is it non persistent? arent all the clojure queues non persistent?
12:53	`cbp	clojure.lang.PersistentQueue is persistent
12:53	llasram	Right. I mean if you don't need the queue to be persistent
12:54	llasram	If you're just pushing items on and popping them off in some sort of producer/consumer model, the j.u.c queues are the way to go
12:55	Anderkent	I think it was more of a 'how would I go about doing this in clojure' question than a 'how do I get this problem solved' question
12:56	jtoy	so if I want to have a system where ids get added to different queues and consumers at certain time run jobs (based on some logic) what queue mechansim should I use? I dont really care if they are persistent
12:56	Anderkent	I mean sure j.u.c queues will probably do it, but that doesn't help one familiarize themselves with clojures concurrency primitives
12:57	llasram	Anderkent: Yeah, but you should use the right tool for the job. Clojure in part doesn't have things which duplicate what's in j.u.c because that stuff is already rock solid and awesome
12:57	Anderkent	jtoy: agent per consumer, +1 agent as a dispatching exchange that does the 'which consumer should handle this' logic then sends the message to consumers work queue
12:59	llasram	My vote is only use agents when the value of the agent itself is meaningful. agent == state + queue of updates to perform against it
13:00	llasram	If you just need a the queue part and there isn't meaningful state attached to the queue, then I think it's best to just use a queue
13:00	opqdonut	Anderkent: btw atoms work if you cheat a bit: https://gist.github.com/opqdonut/6355918
13:01	opqdonut	obviously retaining a reference to the element that was just popped is a slight problem, but it works
13:01	jtoy	I dont have state in the queue, but the consumer can only work at certain times so it needs to check whether it can run before pulling data from the queue
13:01	Anderkent	opqdonut: yeah, but that is generally messy
13:01	Anderkent	jtoy: oh, then agents arent what you want - the control is inverted for them: you're told when you have work, you don't poll for it
13:01	Anderkent	seems you just want refs and transactions
13:02	opqdonut	on a related note, ArrayBlockingQueue is fine for a quick hack
13:02	clj_newb_2345	is there a standard way to do keyword arguments for funciotions in clojure1.5.0, or is it still a bunch of ahcks from contrib?
13:02	jtoy	for the scheduling part is there recommended library? I was about to use quartz, but looking through the docs, it seems more complicated then i need
13:02	amacdougall	There's a way of destructuring that parses kwargs, right?
13:02	Anderkent	llasram: the problem with using j.u.c is that it might be fine if you just need a queue, but as soon as your state is larger than that, say you have a map in an atom where one of the keys is your work queue you get in so much trouble
13:02	Anderkent	jtoy: at-at looked fine when I browsed through it
13:03	llasram	Anderkent: Sure. Use the right tool for the job
13:03	jtoy	Anderkent: so then use atoms or juc? I try to stay away from java heavy stuff since I've never really programmer java before clojure
13:03	Anderkent	jtoy: neither. Use refs and (dosync) blocks.
13:03	ToBeReplaced	clj_newb_2345: see https://github.com/ToBeReplaced/mapply maybe
13:04	jtoy	ok
13:05	jtoy	thanks all
13:05	Anderkent	... except that these don't like being nested, so there's another possible problem.
13:05	Anderkent	(or rather, the nesting semantics are what you want 90% of the time, but when they aren't you can't do anything about it)
13:08	Anderkent	jtoy: just don't use knit for scheduling, it leaks threadpools like mad.
13:08	ambroseb_	amacdougall: it's the same syntax, but after &
13:11	Anderkent	amacdougall: so basically ([a b c & {:keys [key with-default] :or {with-default :foo}}] ), if an example makes it easier
13:12	Anderkent	(forgot the defn)
13:15	clj_newb_2345	clojure has number? -- does clojure not have "bool?" ?
13:15	clj_newb_2345	i'm looking for a function that's basicallly like #(= (type %) java.lang.Boolean)
13:17	stuartsierra	clj_newb_2345: (instance? Boolean foo) is all there is
13:17	kohkane	clj_newb_2345: there are the true? and false? predicates
13:17	technomancy	#{true false}
13:18	anildigital	my map key has vector having string values.. now want to return the key of the map .. if values contain one of the string
13:18	anildigital	how to do this in clojure
13:18	stuartsierra	technomancy: (#{true false} false) will return false
13:18	clj_newb_2345	staurtsierra, kohkane: noted, thanks
13:18	bbloom	stuartsierra: i have defn boolean? in a non-trivial number of programs :-)
13:18	technomancy	stuartsierra: heh; true
13:18	clj_newb_2345	technomancy : thanks-- ; staurtsierra: thanks++;
13:18	stuartsierra	:)
13:19	technomancy	clj_newb_2345: you misspelled inc and dec
13:19	technomancy	clj_newb_2345: how long are you going to keep that nick anyway? =)
13:19	bbloom	(++ technomancy)
13:19	clj_newb_2345	technomancy: until I understand core.async, pedestal, and core.match
13:20	pjstadig	(1+ technomancy)
13:20	technomancy	oh you.
13:20	bbloom	(swap! technomancy update-in :karma inc)
13:20	bbloom	dammit, i mean:
13:20	stuartsierra	heh
13:20	bbloom	(swap! technomancy update-in [:karma] inc)
13:20	technomancy	(incf bbloom)
13:20	stuartsierra	Those damn brackets. Gets me every time.
13:21	bbloom	stuartsierra: dur. shoulda used assoc
13:21	justin_smith	,(contains? #{true false} false)
13:21	clojurebot	true
13:21	muhoo	(inc dec)
13:21	lazybot	⇒ 1
13:22	bbloom	er my brain isn't working. not associ, update-in is what i want. why don't we have an update function w/o the -in part again?
13:22	stuartsierra	bbloom: Because.
13:22	TimMc	bbloom: ITYM (swap! karma update-in ["technomancy"] inc)
13:22	bbloom	TimMc: and now we see that data encapsulation is sometimes a good thing :-P
13:23	bbloom	i wish it were 10X easier to create custom map types
13:23	TimMc	I don't think it's a good idea to have technomancy as a var.
13:23	bbloom	b/c i'd totally make a karma map w/ reverse indexes :-P
13:24	bbloom	technomancy: surely technomancy gets so much karma we can justify the special case
13:24	bbloom	er that was for TimMc, you guys get the idea
13:26	Anderkent	TimMc: (alter-var-root #'technomancy (constantly some-other-guy)) - identity theft at its prime
13:27	hyPiRion	Now just wait until he's collected by the garbage man
13:40	anildigital	This should have print "Win" right https://gist.github.com/anildigital/a7e1c8683a2605c638a5
13:41	rasmusto	anildigital: careful with contains?, it doesn't do what you think it does
13:41	anildigital	rasmusto: any alternative to contains?
13:42	rasmusto	anildigital: I'd use a set, but there might be another way
13:42	Anderkent	anildigital: make your vector a set and then query that: (cond ((set v) "WATCH OUT!") :won)
13:43	Anderkent	alternatively
13:43	Anderkent	(cond (some #{"WATCH OUT!"} v))
13:43	Anderkent	might be cheaper if your vector is really long
13:44	Anderkent	anildigital: also see http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3249334/test-whether-a-list-contains-a-specific-value-in-clojure for the answer and explanation of what contains? does
13:49	jtoy	I know this is horrible, but if i have an an atom vector, why does this return the same item instead 100 different items? (map (fn [x] (pop-users-queue!)) (take 100 (range)))
13:50	jtoy	im interested to understand why it doent work
13:50	rasmusto	anildigital: long story short, contains? checks for existence of a key, in the case of a vector, its looking for indices that exist
13:50	anildigital	rasmusto: got it
13:52	anildigital	user> (for [[k v] things] (cond ((set v) "WATCH OUT!") k))
13:52	anildigital	(nil "Woah, chill out!" nil nil)
13:52	anildigital	how to make it return just result .. woah .. one
13:54	llasram	jtoy: hard to say w/o seeing the implementation of `pop-users-queue!`
13:55	jtoy	llasram: https://www.refheap.com/18076 I tested it by running pop-users-queue! a couple of times and got different ids everytime myself
13:55	anildigital	https://gist.github.com/anildigital/33c8b4d18c277e76b394 should return string.. but is returning nil
13:55	anildigital	how to make clojure return the matched result
13:55	anildigital	instead of returning all the results
13:56	llasram	jtoy: First off, if you're going to use an atom, use `swap!`, not `reset!`
13:57	kohkane	anildigital: doseq returns nil irrespective of result
13:57	rasmusto	anildigital: you want it to return just "Woah, chill out!"?
13:57	anildigital	rasmusto: yes
13:57	jtoy	llasram: but swap! returns the value swapped in?
13:57	llasram	jtoy: Second, using pop w/ a vector means this would be a stack, not a queue
13:57	anildigital	rasmusto: i changed doseq to false but no much help
13:58	saolsen	are there any pubsub abstractions build on core.async yet that work in clojurescript?
13:58	rasmusto	anildigital: I'd recommend for instead of doseq, followed by a (first (filter (complement nil?) res))
13:58	llasram	jtoy: And... Yeah, actually. So you use `first` to get an item out of the vector, then use `pop`, which drops the last item (not the first)
13:58	llasram	That's why you're getting the same item every time
14:00	glosoli	is there some way in vim-fireplace to keep the Command Line for entering clojure code for evaluation always on (that cqc thing)?
14:00	llasram	But fundamentally, this implementation doesn't even begin to be concurrency safe. You need check-and-set semantics, which you can only do with `swap!` -- not with `deref`+`swap!` and definitely not with `deref`+`reset!`
14:01	llasram	jtoy: If this is all you're trying to do, then you definitely just want a j.u.c queue
14:02	jtoy	yes, that is all i need
14:02	jtoy	looing up how to do that
14:03	llasram	jtoy: Look at the implementation of clojure.core/seque
14:03	llasram	It's a clojure.core function which uses a j.u.c LinkedBlockingQueue
14:05	jtoy	thx
14:05	llasram	Well, it's a bit funky. I'm not sure it shows off best practices. But at least it is an example
14:06	jtoy	llasram: is there a more idiomatic way to write this? (map (fn [x] (pop-users-queue!)) (take 100 (range)))
14:07	rasmusto	glosoli: it uses vim's command-line window, and I don't know that theres a way to make that "stick"
14:07	llasram	jtoy: (repeatedly 100 pop-users-queue!)
14:07	glosoli	rasmusto: eeeh ;/ damn all the editors
14:08	jtoy	cool, never saw repeatedly
14:08	rasmusto	glosoli: for persistant stuff like that, I just make a bunch of namespaces that I drop into .gitignore
14:08	glosoli	rasmusto: emacs broke me lol, I can stand it and now can't go back to VIm that easy ;/
14:09	rasmusto	glosoli: are you just missing the emacs integrated repl?
14:09	glosoli	rasmusto: yeah
14:09	rasmusto	glosoli: understood
14:10	glosoli	rasmusto: But while in Emacs I am missing decent Nerd Tree
14:10	rasmusto	glosoli: Nerd Tree is far from the killer feature of vim, you should stay with emacs IMO :)
14:11	rasmusto	glosoli: I like using some sort of fuzzy file/workspace search instead of actually browsing through file trees
14:12	glosoli	rasmusto: Hmm same here, dunno, I just thought about a need of something like proper nerd tree in Emacs and kept on killing myself with the idea, though I would barely use it for sure
14:12	cgag	nerdtree is definitely one of the things that keeps me from bothering with emacs
14:12	glosoli	you made me sad again lol
14:12	cgag	that plus the editing
14:13	glosoli	editing ?
14:13	rasmusto	cgag: evil-mode, and uninstall nerd-tree from you vim plugins, makes it easier to switch
14:13	anildigital	anyone on exercism? want to nitpick my solution http://exercism.io/submissions/521ce6cd97552d2d96000059
14:14	cgag	just the general lack of modal editing / the crazy key chords, evil isn't bad, but i haven't really felt any significant motivation to switch since I got kind of comfortable with fireplace
14:14	cgag	the lack of a real repl is kind of annoying though
14:14	glosoli	cgag: that's why I can't go back to vim lol
14:14	cgag	the problem with evil is you have to write vim-like bindings for all the plugins
14:14	rasmusto	cgag: I agree (with you fireplace point). I think multi-repl stuff could be useful in emacs
14:15	glosoli	rasmusto: hmm can't you do that already ?
14:15	rasmusto	glosoli: er, I meant that its something that's lacking in vim, and it would be a +1 for emacs
14:16	glosoli	rasmusto: I am not sure if there is multi nrepl coz I never tired myself, though I somehow concluded to it being that way
14:17	seancorfield	nrepl.el supports multiple repl sessions
14:18	seancorfield	i often have a local repl running and then at least one more repl into another process
14:20	glosoli	seancorfield: hmm sounds interesting
14:37	noncom	does anyone have experience clojuring with JMonkeyEngine3?
14:50	seangrov`	Wow, as far as I can tell my clojure app isn't doing anything, and yet it's consuming ~750% cpu
14:50	nDuff	seangrov`: ...well, if you have a reproducer...
14:50	seangrov`	I started it via nrepl-jack-in - any way to peek at what the hell it's doing to consume all the cpus?
14:50	nDuff	seangrov`: generally, btw, you'll want to use the same profiling tools you'd use for Java.
14:51	seangrov`	nDuff: It's likely that I've done something in the repl, I'm just not clear on what it would have been
14:52	noncom	try visualvm?
14:53	seangrov`	noncom: Thanks, I'll look it up
15:20	pandeiro	what is the difference between using ring's wrap-sessions with and without the middleware.session.cookie/cookie-store fn?
15:24	kohkane	pandeiro: Session information is usually stored locally and retrieved with the ring-session cookie key
15:25	kohkane	panderio: If you specify the cookie-store then it's stored encrypted in a cookie on the users browser
15:25	pandeiro	kohkane: 'locally' in this case means on the server?
15:26	kohkane	pandeiro: Yes
15:26	pandeiro	kohkane: okay but even w/o cookie-store, a session cookie is saved on the browser. so the difference is encryption?
15:27	kohkane	pandeiro: There is only a ring-session key thats stored on the users browser that indexes session information map
15:27	kohkane	pandeiro: With cookie-store the entire session map is stored on the users browser but its encrypted so that the user cant access it
15:28	callen	http://inchingforward.blogspot.com/2013/08/adventures-in-luminus.html
15:29	pandeiro	kohkane: ah so if i store arbitrary keys/vals in the response's :session, they will be present in the browser, but encrypted
15:30	kohkane	pandeiro: If you use cookie-store, yes. Otherwise, it'll be stored on the server in a map with the ring-session cookie of the users browser as the key
15:32	pandeiro	kohkane: ok so does using cookie store make it harder for someone to spoof a cookie from a different user's browser session? or not really, if they just copy it over verbatim?
15:35	kohkane	pandeiro: I'm NOT really sure, but I guess both methods have equal risk because if someone can just copy your ring-session cookie, they can copy your entire cookie store
15:35	pandeiro	right.. i am trying to understand the utility of cookie-store: it's basically a persistence mechanism, not a security one
15:35	pandeiro	kohkane: thanks for the explanations
15:36	Apage43	pandeiro: the purpose of cookie store is to store the data in the browser, rather than on the server
15:36	Apage43	yeah
15:36	pandeiro	to combat cookie spoofing, something like nonces...
15:37	Apage43	if you're worried about eavesdroppers you should probably just be using SSL
15:39	pandeiro	Apage43: yeah actually i am using a third party service via oauth for the 'serious' parts... i am just trying to accelerate the oauth workflow as much as possible by caching the access tokens (wisely)
15:39	kohkane	pandeiro: cool
15:42	seangrov`	Is it not possible to use (comment ) and put arbitrary (non-valid clojure) text in?
15:42	tauntaun	Does clojure have a web framework as fully featured as Python's Django?
15:42	seangrov`	(comment Steps: 1. So this 2. Do that)
15:42	seangrov`	,(comment Steps: 1. So this 2. Do that)
15:42	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: Steps:>
15:42	seangrov`	Ok, well, I guess that explains it
15:43	bbloom	seangrov`: comment is just a macro, it's not special
15:43	amalloy	seangrove: comment is just a macro; it has to be able to read the input form
15:43	bbloom	try (source comment)
15:43	TimMc	seangrov`: If you are careful about what you write, sure! https://gist.github.com/samn/5843422
15:43	TimMc	Notice that he doesn't use a wide variety of punctuation.
15:44	bbloom	lol that seems like a terrible plan
15:44	amalloy	yeah, if you never misbalance parens, use semicolons, or try to talk about things like: lists, you're fine
15:44	TimMc	And forget about using the normal range of emoticons. :-(
15:45	amalloy	well okay, but we're looking for arguments against this plan
15:45	TimMc	seangrov`: Using #_ "blah blah blah" is generally superior.
15:46	amalloy	TimMc: c'mon, just put ;s in front of every line. it's not like editors make that hard
15:46	TimMc	No, everything must be data!
15:46	futile	welp
15:47	TimMc	Write everything in parse trees.
15:47	bbloom	http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Literate_programming
15:47	pandeiro	keywordize every word
15:47	bbloom	who doesn't want their program inside a latex program?
15:49	stuartsierra	And another 2 programs to separate the code from the latex.
15:49	bbloom	or you can just write one program that does both at the same time & then write two more programs that call the first one and throw out half of the data
15:50	callen	seancorfield: Is there a universal function somewhere in c.j.j through which all queries/inserts/etc pass through?
15:54	TimMc	&#{(println "of") do (do :z/h283r (println "order")) (do :b121 (println "out"))} <-- example I made a while ago
15:54	lazybot	⇒ out of order nil
15:54	phiat	is there a better place to ask a noobish question? (list comprehensions/permutations/recur)
15:54	phiat	https://gist.github.com/phiat/532c72d7c88725b3fa3b
15:54	dnolen	phiat: all noob questions allowed just ask
15:55	futile	What's c.j.j.?
15:55	amalloy	phiat: that's a pretty good implementation
15:55	phiat	i don't understand how (disj (set things) head) works
15:55	amalloy	the (do) inside the for is unnecessary, and (= 1 (count things)) should be (not (next things))
15:56	phiat	i took this fn from kyle burton's blog
15:56	TimMc	futile: Probably clojure.java.jdbc
15:56	futile	oh
15:56	futile	thanks
15:56	phiat	thanks
15:57	amalloy	actually, i take it back, it's not really that good because it's building O(N^2) sets of average size N/2 for no particular reason
15:57	squidz	³how can I best change multiple map values given a vector of new values for example given the vector [5 5] update the values 1 and two. [{:value 1} {:value 2}]} -> (5 5) :-- [{:value 5} {:value 5}]
15:57	amalloy	anyway, phiat, (disj (set things) head) means: "build a set out of all the things, and remove head from it"
15:58	phiat	thanks amalloy, i'm not super interested in optimization, just learning how it does its magic
15:58	amalloy	well, it's not really right either, because it fails on lists with any duplicate elements
15:58	phiat	true, suppose that is given
15:59	bja	tauntaun: essentially no. It has libraries that get you there. But it's much more akin to using Flask than Django
15:59	squidz	i'm trying to modify a nested map so I may be asking the wrong question. the map looks like this: {:key 'a :values [{:value 1} {:value 2}]} 5 5 => {:key 'a :values [{:value 5} {:value 5}]}, where the second map is what i'm going for
16:00	squidz	given a vector of new vals to associtate, here [5 5]
16:01	tauntaun	bja: thanks
16:03	Apage43	,(let [m {:key :whatever :values []} new-vals [5 5]] (assoc-in m [:values] (mapv (partial hash-map :value) new-vals)))
16:03	clojurebot	{:key :whatever, :values [{:value 5} {:value 5}]}
16:03	Apage43	er, no need for assoc-in there
16:03	seancorfield	callen: no, no universal function... do-prepared-stmt is close i think
16:04	Apage43	just (assoc m :values …) since its only one key dee
16:05	squidz	thanks ill give it a try
16:06	lyn_	,(doc mapv)
16:06	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f c1 c2] [f c1 c2 c3] [f c1 c2 c3 & ...]); Returns a vector consisting of the result of applying f to the set of first items of each coll, followed by applying f to the set of second items in each coll, until any one of the colls is exhausted. Any remaining items in other colls are ignored. Function f should accept number-of-colls arguments."
16:06	Apage43	like map, not lazy, returns a vector
16:06	squidz	works like a charm thanks
16:07	lyn_	nice, been bitten by maps laziness
16:07	squidz	never used mapv before, looks likve it could have save me some troubles if I would have had it in mind
16:14	callen	seancorfield: interdasting. I tried that, didn't get very far. Also couldn't extract the SQL because things were already buried in helper fns.
16:14	callen	seancorfield: in order to write a nice SQL query logging library, am I just going to have to play fn whack-a-mole with c.j.j or what?
16:14	hugod	technomancy: do you have a good link with an explanation of lein's use of TieredStopAtLevel?
16:14	callen	please tell me I have a better option than that - but if I don't, is there a list of the fns I should wrap in order to catch all queries/actions against the database?
16:19	asteve	how can I get more of the stack trace from a lein compile error?
16:19	asteve	I'm getting a "Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Keyword" error but I don't know where to look in the file for the call
16:20	hyPiRion	asteve: Is that during compile time or runtime? In either case, you should get a line number
16:20	asteve	hyPiRion: compile time
16:21	hyPiRion	Then it's because a keywords is used where a seq/vector is expected
16:21	hyPiRion	,(let :keyword what)
16:21	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: let requires a vector for its binding in sandbox:>
16:21	hyPiRion	like that, just somewhere else apparently
16:23	phiat	amolloy: I'm still not wrapping my head '(no pun) around how the (disj (set things) head) returns anything but the head, seeing that head is bound to things...
16:23	phiat	https://gist.github.com/phiat/532c72d7c88725b3fa3b
16:25	TimMc	What would be the consequences of replacing all deref calls in a dosync block with ensure calls?
16:25	callen	TimMc: sounds like a good opportunity to do some ?!SCIENCE!?
16:26	TimMc	I don't think the experiemtnal method is particularly appropriate for studying concurrency correctness. :-P
16:26	phiat	amalloy: I'm still not wrapping my head '(no pun) around how the (disj (set things) head) returns anything but the head, seeing that head is bound to things...
16:26	TimMc	It seems to me that any time you deref a ref in a dosync, you probably want to ensure it somewhere in the dosync as well.
16:28	TimMc	Basically, I'm wondering if anyone can come up with a countering use-case.
16:28	technomancy	hugod: I don't think there's a good link; it was just something I heard jruby had a lot of success using
16:28	technomancy	maybe https://weblogs.java.net/blog/forax/archive/2010/09/04/tiered-compilation
16:29	phiat	I'm trying to get a basic fn to return permutations on a set. doesnt need to be efficient, nor account for duplicates
16:29	futile	you guys are way smarter than me
16:29	futile	and im very glad for that
16:30	phiat	without the entire math.combinatronics...
16:30	stuartsierra	TimMc: There are lots of cases where you may want to read multiple refs in the same transaction, consistently, but you don't care if they have changed by the end of the transaction.
16:30	amalloy	phiat: head isn't bound to things, it's bound to each successive item in things, in a loop
16:30	noncom	futile: yes, sometimes i read this irc and feel sooo glad for that...
16:30	callen	technomancy: that's pretty impressive. :)
16:30	noncom	pure happiness i say
16:31	technomancy	callen: eh?
16:31	callen	noncom: until you're on the sharp end of amalloy's idiot stick, sure.
16:31	futile	noncom: http://bit.ly/1dkKyXm
16:31	callen	technomancy: tiered compilation
16:32	amalloy	callen: you're accusing me of being hostile?
16:32	callen	technomancy: nifty stuff, I didn't know it existed beyond seeing it in some Leiningen stuff.
16:32	technomancy	oh, it's an OK link, but it doesn't discuss the StopAtLevel aspect specifically
16:32	callen	amalloy: not really accusing, just gently prodding you :)
16:32	hyPiRion	amalloy: I thought that was a compliment
16:32	technomancy	callen: beware the -X[...] args
16:32	noncom	futile: haha, both.
16:32	technomancy	callen: have you tried my ocaml code yet?
16:32	futile	So after my project management tool, my next project is gonna be an IDE for Clojure in Clojure.
16:33	callen	technomancy: grenchman?
16:33	technomancy	callen: aye
16:33	callen	not yet, I need to.
16:33	noncom	futile: what was your project management tool? i missed that..
16:33	callen	in fact, I have use for it right now.
16:34	phiat	amalloy: thanks! lightbulb!
16:34	technomancy	callen: let me know what you think if you do
16:34	futile	noncom: Oh just that I plan to write a tool that replaces the dilapidated one we're using for work.
16:34	callen	technomancy: opam is nifty. OPAM is just from the last couple years right?
16:35	squidz	futile: how would it be different than the IDEs out right now? Would the clojure in clojure change anything?
16:35	noncom	futile: i see... and what about the ide? are you gonna go in steps of clooj?
16:35	technomancy	callen: maybe even just year, singular
16:35	callen	technomancy: I wonder why people suddenly cared. Very grateful for it anyway.
16:35	technomancy	callen: sponsored by Jane Street, it sounds like
16:35	callen	maybe they had a good year :)
16:36	technomancy	heh
16:36	technomancy	callen: if you do get a chance to look at the codebase itself I'd be interested in hearing thoughts from someone who knows what decent OCaml looks like
16:37	technomancy	so far I'm in the single-digits of days of experience
16:37	callen	I am far from an authority on that.
16:37	technomancy	double-digits at least? =)
16:37	callen	I was just a refugee that used it for awhile before and after Haskell.
16:38	callen	to write utilities, mostly.
16:39	callen	well at least Minsky's finally doubling down on the community.
16:41	ToxicFrog	Minsky?
16:42	callen	ToxicFrog: Jane Street (founder?), OCaml luminary/advocate.
16:43	callen	ToxicFrog: OCaml is basically type systems and FP done right and pleasantly so. Nifty language for producing binaries.
16:44	ToxicFrog	Aah.
16:47	futile	squidz: It would do all the things I want it to.
16:48	futile	squidz: I admit that's kind of vague. But if I had doubted this intuition before, I wouldn't have come up with Zephyros or Bahamut. And I'm super glad I did both.
16:48	futile	squidz: (see https://github.com/sdegutis/zephyros and https://github.com/sdegutis/bahamut)
16:48	futile	noncom: probably not.
16:48	squidz	Apage43: the example you gave me works when the maps only contain one key but when there are others it overwrites everything. {:value 1} -> {:value 5}, but {:value 1 :date 1} -> {:value 5} so the second key and val are ignored
16:49	Apage43	Ah
16:49	futile	squidz: also I think Clojure is the best language for it because of all the available Clojure libraries for inspecting/manipulating Clojure projects.
16:50	Apage43	I didn't understand what you were trying to do
16:50	squidz	futile: your github link is broken
16:50	futile	squidz: the second one? Your irc client might just be including the closing-parenthesis.
16:51	noncom	futile: nice things zephyros and bahamut! although i am a windows user, i see they are cool. and also you listen to tool music, that ensures you making cool software
16:51	s4muel	maynard++
16:51	futile	noncom: haha. well I normally would argue against that measurement, but heck I'll take what credibility I can get.
16:51	s4muel	rather (inc maynard) here.
16:51	squidz	Apage43: do you know if there is a way to do it when my maps are structured like that?
16:51	noncom	ehehe :)
16:51	noncom	(inc maynard)
16:51	lazybot	⇒ 1
16:52	noncom	$seen maynard
16:52	lazybot	I have never seen maynard.
16:52	noncom	:(
16:52	futile	lazybot: you should, he's a great singer
16:52	noncom	bad for you bot
16:52	squidz	futile: ah i pasted them both as one url, didnt realize that it is two
16:52	futile	squidz: heh
16:52	Apage43	Squidz I'd use reduce and assoc-in
16:52	noncom	so an idea about a cool ide sounds cool
16:52	noncom	actually i think that ides are stuck in past
16:53	TimMc	stuartsierra: The situations you're thinking of, do they also involve writing to another ref? If all you're doing is reading refs, then sure, you never need ensure.
16:53	futile	Most IDEs seem to have features I don't want and lack features I want.
16:53	noncom	what you think about emacs?
16:53	noncom	what does not suit you with it?
16:54	futile	I've been using emacs for a few months in Clojure. It's lacking in some areas.
16:54	stuartsierra	TimMc: Sure, say you want to read two related counters to update a third which will be used for analytics or UI display or something.
16:54	Apage43	(reduce (fn [m idx] (assoc-in [:values idx] (v idx))) m (range (count v)))
16:54	squidz	futile: have you seen deuce? https://github.com/hraberg/deuce
16:54	noncom	i dont use emacs, but ppl say it is 100% customizable (and i agree from what i know). what is intersting is that you find it somewhat limiting
16:54	Apage43	Where m is your map and v is the vector of values
16:54	futile	Sure, it's open source and I could fix the problems by trying to fix other people's code. But I've learned to discern when a rewrite is in order or not, and in emacs's case it is.
16:55	squidz	Apage43: let me give it a try
16:55	Apage43	Typing on phone so i haven't tested that
16:55	squidz	Apage43: ill try it out for you
16:55	futile	squidz: I looked briefly at it and emulating emacs is not the right goal. Emacs was written in the 80s when things were much different, and has not evolved as gracefully as it should have.
16:56	asteve	how can I get a full stack trace at compile time?
16:56	asteve	I would like this piece: " ... 26 more"
16:56	futile	Granted, many people here will disagree. Just like many people use Slate instead of Zephyros. But many people have moved from Slate to Zephyros. So I have confidence now that I know what I'm saying.
16:56	stuartsierra	asteve: You're not really missing anything. those are just duplicated stack frames in the "caused by" chain of the exception.
16:57	mgaare	futile: what in particular do you want to see in emacs
16:57	hyPiRion	proper concurrency for a start
16:57	asteve	stuartsierra: ok how can I narrow down where in my file is causing this exception "Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Keyword" ?
16:57	futile	mgaare: well for one thing, ido-mode will omit results when I type "viewcode" but show them if I type "view/code" even though I have fuzzy matching on. That's a pretty detrimental bug.
16:57	stuartsierra	asteve: Look at the file. :)
16:57	squidz	the reason I like emacs is because you only have to learn emacs and you have a pretty good IDE for pretty much any language
16:58	Apage43	Squidz there should be a m after assoc-in
16:58	noncom	futile: that is very good. i know that feeling and its base. one thing i can say: keep pushing, i hope to see it someday..
16:58	asteve	stuartsierra: it is quite massive, I actually commented out two blocks of code that involved keyword and the exception was still thrown
16:58	stuartsierra	asteve: Sorry, nothing to be done but keep narrowing it down.
16:59	squidz	Apage43: right ill add it in
16:59	TimMc	stuartsierra: Ah, I see -- you may be computing a lagging view.
16:59	TimMc	Thanks, that's helpful.
16:59	stuartsierra	You're welcome.
17:00	stuartsierra	There are probably better examples I haven't thought of.
17:00	squidz	Apage43: it works! awesome thanks
17:00	Apage43	Neat!
17:01	futile	technomancy: you didn't add chicken scheme to the mix in your comparison, do you have thoughts on it?
17:01	technomancy	futile: eh?
17:01	technomancy	you mean my blog post?
17:01	futile	yea
17:01	technomancy	I did actually include chicken scheme?
17:02	futile	oops.
17:02	futile	technomancy: sorry for the noise
17:02	technomancy	heh; np
17:06	squidz	Apage43: oh wait, no it doesnt, the dates still arent there
17:06	asteve	what json dep do you guys use?
17:08	technomancy	cheshire!
17:08	stuartsierra	All of them, transitively!
17:10	asteve	interesting
17:11	asteve	stuartsierra: it appears you write json.clj for clojure/data.json
17:11	stuartsierra	asteve: Yes, I wrote and, to my everlasting regret, maintain data.json.
17:11	dakrone	stuartsierra: hah
17:12	dakrone	why regret?
17:12	asteve	stuartsierra: well, I'm getting "Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Keyword" while using data.json
17:12	stuartsierra	data.json is like the beautiful child who grows up into an angry, surly teenager who wrecks your car.
17:12	technomancy	actually I still use clj-json; I find it gives a warmer, more vibrant sound
17:12	llasram	(inc technomancy)
17:12	lazybot	⇒ 72
17:13	stuartsierra	asteve: can you be more specific? "Using" covers a lot of ground. :)
17:13	dnolen	stuartsierra: fwiw, I don't have any problems w/ data.json at the moment
17:13	stuartsierra	dnolen: You're the first. ;)
17:13	futile	stuartsierra: what's wrong with data.json?
17:13	hyPiRion	futile: the fact that he has to maintain it, I suppose?
17:13	futile	hyPiRion: but is that all?
17:13	stuartsierra	JSON parsers are the ultimate bike shed project. They're simple enough that anybody can write one, so everybody has ideas about how to do it.
17:13	asteve	stuartsierra: right, http://pastie.org/8275157
17:14	technomancy	futile: getting yelled at by michael kishlin maybe?
17:14	futile	stuartsierra: seems like the easiest route would be to delegate the internal work to clj-json
17:14	futile	that's what I'd do if I had to write a json parser today
17:15	futile	just delegate to clj-json or data.json
17:15	futile	I mean, if I had to parse some json
17:15	futile	.
17:15	ztellman	brb writing two dozen paper-thin wrappers around other popular clojure libraries
17:15	stuartsierra	Like Cheshire delegates to a Java library.
17:16	asteve	stuartsierra: I see mention of :key-fn in the docs and I wasn't sure if that's required
17:16	stuartsierra	ztellman: :)
17:16	stuartsierra	asteve: So what's the issue, exactly? Compile-time exception? Run-time exception?
17:16	futile	ztellman: yes, that was the joke.
17:16	asteve	stuartsierra: compile time
17:16	futile	:/
17:17	stuartsierra	asteve: If it's a compile-time error it almost certainly has nothing to do with data.json.
17:17	ztellman	futile: s/joke/brilliant idea/g
17:18	futile	quick someone slap me with a dose of humility
17:20	asteve	hmm
17:20	asteve	fighting clojure stack traces and exceptions is hell
17:21	pbostrom	https://www.refheap.com/18077 Part 1: I want to execute some side effects inside of a dosync block, this is how I would do it right? Part 2: Is it dumb to use an agent to store a closure like this, and should I use some more appropriate data structure?
17:21	stuartsierra	asteve: That code snippet compiles fine for me, with appropriate (ns … (:require …))
17:22	asteve	stuartsierra: ya, I guess that's good news
17:22	futile	Hey guys, what would be a better route for IPC? To communicate over a single socket, or to spin up a process per request/response and talk via its stdin/stdout?
17:22	asteve	(:require (clojure.data.json :as json)), looks kosher?
17:22	squidz	Apage43: I figured out that we need to add the path like [:values idx :value] and then it works
17:22	stuartsierra	asteve: No. (ns … (:require [clojure.data.json :as json]))
17:23	stuartsierra	A "libspec" must be a vector.
17:23	hyPiRion	"must"
17:24	asteve	stuartsierra: is this a change from 1.3?
17:24	stuartsierra	asteve: No, it was always that way.
17:25	stuartsierra	Lists are for prefixes.
17:26	lyn_	pbostrom that code looks odd to me. why do you need agents if all you're doing is side effects?
17:27	pbostrom	lyn_: inside of a dosync block, I also want to alter the ref under certain conditions
17:28	pbostrom	lyn_: dosync block would retry side effects if I don't use an agent
17:28	asteve	stuartsierra: thanks for the assistance
17:28	stuartsierra	asteve: You're welcome.
17:28	asteve	has http://richhickey.github.io/clojure-contrib/generic.math-functions-api.html been replaced by something in 1.5.1?
17:29	stuartsierra	asteve: That's an out-of-date URL.
17:29	stuartsierra	clojure.github.io has latest API docs
17:30	callen	technomancy: why not cheshire?
17:30	asteve	hmm, where has log gone?
17:31	lyn_	pbostrom ah, cool technique then!
17:31	technomancy	callen: too mainstream
17:31	stuartsierra	ha
17:32	schmir	hmmm. I'm using a wrapper around tika and it's working fine when used via lein repl/lein run. but if I build an uberjar, I cannot extract text anymore. that is the extracted text is always the empty string. what could be the cause for that behaviour?
17:32	technomancy	http://wondermark.com/262/
17:32	pbostrom	lyn_: admittedly, it looks odd to me too, just confirming this is considered a best practice for this kinda thing
17:32	lyn_	pbostrom are you sure none of the side effects will be retried?
17:36	stuartsierra	asteve: You may also want to refer to http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
17:36	asteve	stuartsierra: I'm currently upgrading from 1.2 to 1.5.1, that is very useful thanks
17:37	pbostrom	lyn_: I've read that in various Clojure books I believe, but it doesn't appear to be in the docstrings for agent, send, or dosync
17:38	brehaut	technomancy: that wondermark is amazing
17:38	technomancy	brehaut: some of the early ones are hit-or-miss, but that one is solid
17:38	callen	technomancy: anybody that was an Aerosmith fan back in the day knows that pain.
17:40	brehaut	technomancy: this early hit-or-miss nature may be why i didnt think i enjoyed wondermark
17:41	callen	stuartsierra: I like how we're still suffering from clojure.contrib
17:41	technomancy	we are?
17:42	callen	technomancy: or at least the slow-pokes are :)
17:42	stuartsierra	callen: You like it because you didn't have to manage Maven+Hudson.
17:43	callen	http://i.imgflip.com/38uac.jpg
17:43	Bronsa	lol
17:43	stuartsierra	We need one of those FAQ bots like they have in #bash.
17:44	callen	we kinda have that.
17:44	callen	you can teach the bots things.
17:44	callen	just teach it what contrib is.
17:44	stuartsierra	clojurebot: contrib
17:44	clojurebot	Monolithic clojure.contrib has been split up in favor of smaller, actually-maintained libs. Transition notes here: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
17:45	callen	skip the teaching part. it already knows.
17:45	stuartsierra	Fine, but link is now http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
17:45	stuartsierra	(There's a link at the old location)
17:45	callen	I forgot the syntax for teaching the bot :)
17:45	hyPiRion	clojurebot: forget contrib
17:45	stuartsierra	me too
17:45	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
17:45	hyPiRion	hrm
17:45	callen	clojurebot: contrib
17:45	clojurebot	Monolithic clojure.contrib has been split up in favor of smaller, actually-maintained libs. Transition notes here: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
17:45	callen	hyPiRion: gg
17:46	hyPiRion	callen: yeah, I know. I forgot the syntax for making the bot forget
17:46	brehaut	only hiredman remembers
17:46	bruceadams	clojurebot: help
17:46	clojurebot	Nobody can help with "X doesn't work". Please provide context: what you did, what you hoped would happen, and what happened instead. A stack trace is especially helpful, if applicable.
17:46	stuartsierra	hah
17:46	hyPiRion	clojurebot: how do I make you forget stuff?
17:46	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
17:46	brehaut	bruceadams: the only documentation for clojurebot's syntax is the fn-parse rules
17:47	stuartsierra	It's more fun to just shout at the bot.
17:48	pjstadig	clojurebot: forget contrib \|is\|<reply>Monolithic clojure.contrib has been split up in favor of smaller, actually-maintained libs. Transition notes here: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
17:48	clojurebot	I forgot that contrib is <reply>Monolithic clojure.contrib has been split up in favor of smaller, actually-maintained libs. Transition notes here: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
17:48	pjstadig	~contrib
17:48	clojurebot	Pardon?
17:48	brehaut	(inc pjstadig)
17:48	lazybot	⇒ 5
17:48	pjstadig	clojurebot: contrib is <reply>Monolithic clojure.contrib has been split up in favor of smaller, actually-maintained libs. Transition notes here: http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
17:48	clojurebot	Roger.
17:48	pjstadig	~contrib
17:48	clojurebot	Monolithic clojure.contrib has been split up in favor of smaller, actually-maintained libs. Transition notes here: http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
17:49	callen	pjstadig: thank you...
17:49	pjstadig	np
17:49	callen	pjstadig: how do you take advantage of the reply markup to aim it at somebody?
17:49	callen	~contrib pjstadig
17:49	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
17:49	pjstadig	oh i don't know if that's possible
17:49	pjstadig	hiredman would have to answer that one
17:50	callen	balls. Aiming is nice for getting somebody's attention sometimes.
17:50	callen	pjstadig: thanks for helping out :)
17:50	pjstadig	i think you can use <name> or something but i don't know if the factoids can take parameters
17:50	pjstadig	i think <name> might be the person addressing clojurebot
17:51	brehaut	pjstadig: isnt it the thing that suppresses 'X is' at the start ?
17:51	brehaut	oh wait ignore me
17:51	pjstadig	brehaut: yeah that's what <reply> does
17:51	hiredman	#who
17:51	hiredman	clojurebot: whoami is <reply>#who
17:51	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
17:51	hiredman	~whoami
17:51	clojurebot	hiredman
17:51	dnolen	seangrov`: have you verified that the keyword optimization doesn't mess w/ incremental compilation?
17:52	futile	What's the best way to execute a shell task in Clojure?
17:52	ozzloy	http://hl7api.sourceforge.net/v24/apidocs/index.html shows the class ADT_A01, but i get a class not found exception with this code: https://www.refheap.com/18081 am i doing imports wrong?
17:53	rasmusto	futile: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.java.shell/sh
17:53	futile	rasmusto: Is it safe to execute that in a background thread (maybe multiple in parallel)?
17:54	ozzloy	also, where does lein put the downloaded jar? i want to try to compile the java version of this: http://hl7api.sourceforge.net/xref/ca/uhn/hl7v2/examples/CreateAMessage.html
17:54	callen	technomancy: well grenchman is installed but I'm only on 2.3.2 and haven't installed from git master in ages.
17:54	rasmusto	futile: I use it with pmap, so probably :)
17:54	callen	back to looking at the code.
17:54	futile	rasmusto: yay :)
17:54	technomancy	callen: yeah, found a really stupid lein bug like two days after 2.3.2 came out
17:58	hyPiRion	callen: `git clone leiningen; cd leiningen/leiningen-core; lein bootstrap; cd ..; ln -s $PWD/bin/lein ~/bin/lein-master`
17:59	technomancy	hub clone technomancy/leiningen
18:00	callen	hub is so nice _
18:00	squidz	when using clojure i am getting a lot of results like '([1 2]) when I actually want [1 2]. I suppose it may have something to do with laziness? I can use first to get the result inside the list, but this seems like a hack. is there a better way to do it?
18:00	callen	hyPiRion: thanks :)
18:01	technomancy	squidz: you can destructure it out
18:01	rasmusto	squidz: it could be how you're generating the result, do you have an example?
18:02	justin_smith	sounds like you are using sequence operations on individual elements
18:02	squidz	am getting the results from a reduce
18:02	aaelony	simple question here… what's the best way to convert a date string like "2013-08-01" to milliseconds from epoch? I'm looking at clj-time.coerce/from-string but the docs are unclear
18:02	aaelony	http://clj-time.github.io/clj-time/doc/clj-time.coerce.html#var-from-string
18:02	callen	technomancy: welp. that's faster.
18:02	justin_smith	squidz: the function called inside reduce has full control of the output of reduce
18:03	technomancy	callen: tried :eval-in :nrepl?
18:03	callen	technomancy: about to
18:03	callen	aaelony: first, are you using 0.6.0?
18:03	technomancy	you will squee with joy
18:03	aaelony	i think so
18:03	squidz	the result of reduce is a map which i want to combine with another map. So I am using (vector m1 m2) is then returning ([m1 m2])
18:03	callen	aaelony: well double check your project.clj, because the advice I'm about to give you is based on the new clj-time API
18:04	callen	aaelony: when you say epoch, did it come from an interval or a bare date?
18:04	aaelony	sorry, it's [clj-time "0.5.1"]
18:04	aaelony	but I can change that
18:04	justin_smith	squidz: why the hell is vector returning a vector inside a list? that makes zero sense
18:04	callen	aaelony: you probably want to upgrade and fix any deprecated code.
18:05	aaelony	callen: I just want something that incanter knows how to use as a time series
18:05	squidz	justin_smith: yeah then I console.log that vector out together with prn-str
18:05	aaelony	callen: that's fine, but I need a simple example
18:05	callen	aaelony: interval or bare date?
18:05	justin_smith	squidz: if you want a map out of reduce, use (into {} (reduce ...))
18:05	callen	aaelony: interval is (in-millis ...)
18:06	justin_smith	squidz: it could be you are making a map with only one entry
18:06	aaelony	callen: Input is a string like so: "2013-08-01" and output would be the value in milliseconds from epoch
18:06	aaelony	callen: no interval
18:06	callen	okay. pretty sure that exists, uno momento.
18:06	callen	aaelony: my brains are a little scrambled because I refactored the API and epoch/unix millis was some of the stuff I changed.
18:06	callen	aaelony: but that's also why using the latest version is relevant.
18:07	callen	because some of the epoch stuff didn't exist before my PR
18:07	aaelony	callen: cool… i see.
18:07	justin_smith	squidz: err... wait, you can make a reduce return a map, if for some reason a seq of entries is more convenient, then use the into trick above instead
18:07	aaelony	callen: basically something that would do this (http://jakemccrary.com/blog/2010/02/21/plotting-time-series-data-with-incanter/) in a currently appropriate way
18:07	squidz	justin_smith: here is my code https://www.refheap.com/18083
18:08	aaelony	callen: is there still a to-ms function
18:08	squidz	the bottom of that function is what is supposed to return the vector
18:08	justin_smith	squidz: ,(reduce (fn [m [k v]] (assoc m k v)) {} (partition 2 (range 8)))
18:08	callen	aaelony: you probably want to-long, it converts the object to the number of milliseconds since unix epoch from the date object provided.
18:08	justin_smith	,(reduce (fn [m [k v]] (assoc m k v)) {} (partition 2 (range 8)))
18:08	clojurebot	{6 7, 4 5, 2 3, 0 1}
18:09	jzelinskie	that's a nice bot
18:09	callen	aaelony: user=> (coerce/to-long (time/now))
18:09	callen	1377639995556
18:10	aaelony	callen: perfect! thanks :)
18:10	aaelony	callen: (timec/to-long "2013-08-01") ==> 1375315200000
18:11	justin_smith	,(.getTime (java.util.Date.))
18:11	clojurebot	1377640105272
18:11	callen	aaelony: excellent. cheers :)
18:11	justin_smith	less libs
18:11	callen	justin_smith: the reason for clj-time is the protocols handle auto-projecting across type relationships for various possible inputs.
18:12	aaelony	justin_smith: that doesn't work with a date string though
18:12	callen	justin_smith: that's the automagic that turns his string into what he needs.
18:12	aaelony	justin_smith: e.g. (.getTime "2013-08-01") fails
18:12	callen	justin_smith: normally I'd agree with you, but look more carefully at the example. :)
18:12	aaelony	callen, justin_smith: big thanks nevertheless. What's a good way to provide these examples to the API docs?
18:13	callen	aaelony: sorry, provide these examples?
18:13	aaelony	(I know I'll forget and need to look it up in the future)
18:13	callen	aaelony: do you want to contribute to clj-time's documentation or do you mean something else?
18:13	aaelony	callen: (timec/to-long "2013-08-01") ==> 1375315200000
18:13	callen	aaelony: right, but I'm asking you where you want it to live.
18:13	callen	I can find a home for it if you want.
18:14	aaelony	callen: ah, well google founjd me this… http://clj-time.github.io/clj-time/doc/clj-time.coerce.html#var-from-string so maybe there?
18:14	callen	aaelony: nuh uh, that's auto generated. I'll put it in the readme, I know where it should go.
18:14	aaelony	callen: sweet
18:14	aaelony	callen: thanks again
18:16	justin_smith	squidz: double check that you are actually binding super to a hashmap and not a vector?
18:17	justin_smith	squidz: style wise, I suggest more functions, that are small, and simple, and easy to verify as being correct in a repl or unit test
18:17	squidz	yeah i thought the same about more smaller functions, thanks for the tips
18:17	callen	technomancy: keeps closing the socket and dying on me :(
18:21	technomancy	callen: which socket?
18:22	technomancy	grench->lein or lein->project?
18:30	dobry-den	So Github recognizes CoffeeScript but considers ClojureScript to be JavaScript. :(
18:31	dobry-den	Cruel world
18:32	futile	aww
18:32	dnolen	dobry-den: hmm really?
18:32	futile	dobry-den: to be fair, its actually just javascript files and clojure files
18:32	futile	:)
18:33	dnolen	dobry-den: in what context are you talking about? GitHub has identified .cljs for a while now. Though I think they just lump with Clojure. ClojureScript repo says 97% Clojure.
18:38	cgag	if you check in your compiled javascript it's probably giving your project credit for 20k lines of javascript
18:40	futile	If I spin up an external process via clojure.java.shell/sh, write to it, read to it, and shut it down, about a dozen times per second, is that going to be slow? Would it be significantly slower than opening up a unix socket and sending/receiving the same amount of messages on the same socket in the same time frame?
18:43	ucb	what sql library do you recommend? I've only looked at clojureql so far
18:43	justin_smith	in swank repl buffers in emacs, hitting tab inside a string would path-complete filenames - how hard would it be to make nrepl do this? is it just an option I need to turn on?
18:43	TakeV	One has to define a protocol in order to give a deftype functions, right? You can't just define functions that aren't in a protocol you specify?
18:45	callen	I need an alfred plugin that lets me quickly bring up github repos.
18:46	callen	aaelony: https://github.com/clj-time/clj-time#clj-timecoerce
18:48	callen	feck it, alias.
18:48	callen	er, function.
18:57	dobry-den	dnolen: you're right. interestingly despite removing my .js build file, it still reported Javascript 99.6% for days until just now when I made an 'update README' commit
18:57	dobry-den	now it reflects Clojure 99.6%
18:58	`cbp	mmm why does (round (/ 5 3)) return a BigInt in clojure.numeric-tower
18:59	dobry-den	dnolen: man, i ended up getting my app to a working state using your core.async snippet as inspiration (the start/stop/scrub app). this is great
19:00	`cbp	does anyone have non-nuts round lying around? =P
19:03	`cbp	oh ##(type (.numerator (/ 5 3)))
19:03	lazybot	⇒ java.math.BigInteger
19:03	`cbp	well..
19:03	hyPiRion	that's not what round does though
19:04	`cbp	hyPiRion: round does (quote (.numerator..) (.denominator..))
19:04	hyPiRion	quot, yeah.
19:04	`cbp	hyPiRion: I mean thats what floor and round uses floor
19:04	`cbp	yeah quot =P
19:05	hyPiRion	ah, right
19:05	`cbp	that's what floor does*
19:07	callen	technomancy: Exception in thread "nREPL-worker-0" java.net.SocketException: Socket closed
19:07	callen	oh you know what, it was closing after that exception before, but it seems to be okay now.
19:07	callen	weird.
19:11	hyPiRion	callen: That's probably technomancy/leiningen#1288. I suspect it is because REPLy/Leiningen thinks the connection is still open.
19:11	lazybot	lein repl crashes whenever shut down -- https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/1288 is open
19:13	ozzloy	in case anyone was wondering, hapi is broken into several libs and i didn't include all the ones necessary for the thing i tried earlier
19:13	ozzloy	oh woops, i'm in scroll back
19:17	technomancy	callen: there are still several nasty edge cases and ways to get it wedged
19:18	technomancy	but it sounds like restarting fixed it?
19:18	callen	technomancy: aye, it did.
19:18	technomancy	cools
19:18	callen	technomancy: I'm working on something that does involve doing `lein run` over and over, so this came at a good time.
19:19	callen	something even faster would be cooler still, but that's my fault for relying on :main to test this library.
19:19	technomancy	callen: cool; so you won't be bitten by the stdin issues
19:19	callen	I should just move to tests so it's instantaneous.
19:19	callen	technomancy: nah this is just my SQL logging library.
19:19	callen	I just run queries and see colored output, that's all.
19:19	technomancy	callen: re: "something faster" is that orthogonal to Leiningen/Grenchman?
19:20	callen	aye, it'd mean moving from :main to writing tests and using (refresh) and (run-tests) in a REPL.
19:20	technomancy	I mean, with :eval-in :nrepl, does the tooling introduce any overhead still?
19:21	callen	I see - grench eval '(:status (my.web/app {:uri "/"}))' - what do you mean by :eval-in :nrepl?
19:21	hyPiRion	callen: that's :eval-in :nrepl.
19:22	technomancy	callen: by default `grench eval ...` will skip starting a new lein jvm, but it will start a project JVM
19:22	technomancy	you can set :eval-in :nrepl to jump straight from lein's resident JVM to a running project JVM
19:22	callen	sadly I have to go to a meeting, I'll tinker with it after I get settled in my airbnb room tonight.
19:23	technomancy	k
19:33	aaelony	callen: that's awesome, thanks :)
19:44	mihneadb	hi, I'm having trouble with some big collections, out of heap. I'm not handling them correctly
19:45	mihneadb	https://www.refheap.com/18087
19:45	mihneadb	(basically I want to walk a directory structure and download some many files)
19:45	mihneadb	could someone please help me with the looping part?
19:45	amalloy	mihneadb: don't def a top-level var to hold a lazy sequence. keep it locally-bound only
19:46	mihneadb	amalloy: could you also tell me why, please?
19:46	amalloy	because it can't get GCed ever, if you hold a pointer to the start of it: you threaten to reuse the sequence
19:47	mihneadb	aha
19:47	mihneadb	but in my case that is not the problem, right?
19:47	amalloy	now here, it doesn't look like inbound-dirs is very large, so that's probably not a problem
19:47	amalloy	it's just the only thing that leapt out at me as a memory issue
19:47	mihneadb	ah, ok
19:47	mihneadb	amalloy: problem is the space is pretty big
19:47	mihneadb	I mean.. the search space
19:48	mihneadb	but doseq does not retain the head of the seq, so I'm confused
19:48	mihneadb	any ideas?
19:49	amalloy	you're holding a single file all in memory at once; if any one file is very large that would be a problem
19:49	mihneadb	amalloy: you mean when I'm saving it to disk?
19:49	amalloy	yes
19:49	amalloy	otherwise, nothing jumps out at me and i'm afraid i don't have time to look harder
19:49	konr`	How can I catch assertions that fail?
19:50	mihneadb	amalloy: ok, thanks. it downloads a few files just fine it seems
19:50	mihneadb	so it shouldn't be that
19:50	mihneadb	amalloy: fwiw it seems to have crashed at the 2nd step of the inner doseq
19:51	konr`	... (catch Throwable e ...
19:52	brehaut	mihneadb: minor style thing, and maybe i am mistaken, but i think your two doseq's can be flattened into one. more minor style thing: aliasing str to join is a bit gross. a typical 'join (such as the one in clojure.string) function has different semantics to str
19:53	mihneadb	brehaut: thanks, I had no idea
19:53	mihneadb	brehaut: how could I do the two doseqs in just one?
19:53	brehaut	(doseq [as foos b as] (do-whatever b))
19:53	seangrov`	dnolen: No, I'm pretty unclear on how incremental compilation works (I've never had it work for me in a year of using cljs fulltime), but from my understanding it should work
19:53	mihneadb	brehaut: thanks!
19:54	mihneadb	this kind of is my first real clojure program.. so any hint helps
19:54	brehaut	,(for [a [[1 2 3] [4 5 6]] b a] (inc b))
19:54	clojurebot	(2 3 4 5 6 ...)
19:54	seangrov`	We write out a contants_table.js to a file (in the specified :outputdir), and that file will only change if there's a new constant added to the table, which should only be for new keywords if the incremental compilation is run in the same continual process
19:55	mihneadb	brehaut: but in my case I have to call a function
19:55	brehaut	,(for [a (range 3) b (range a)] b)
19:55	clojurebot	(0 0 1)
19:55	brehaut	ha
19:56	mihneadb	nice
19:56	mihneadb	thanks
19:56	mihneadb	brehaut: any idea what's causing my memory problem?
19:56	brehaut	i think amalloy's guess is the most likely
19:57	mihneadb	brehaut: size of the file?
19:57	brehaut	sucking everything into a byte-array and then spitting that out is not really the best way to go about it
19:57	mihneadb	brehaut: it downloads the stuff in the first encountered folder fine, it crashes when it reaches the 2nd. if I only have one file in memory at a time, this doesn't seem to be the problem
19:57	mihneadb	nevertheless, how should I go about that download?
19:58	brehaut	well, its the middle of my work day, so i dont really have time to go and spelunke your program
19:59	srruby	I'm using gvim. I like to often re-indent the file using gg=G However it is very slow. Any ideas how to speed it up?
19:59	mihneadb	brehaut: ok, thanks for the doseq tips
20:02	dnolen	seangrov`: basically the constant table should always be emitted, I'll verify
20:03	seangrov`	That may be the problem I was getting, it was complaining that there was no .repl/constants_table.js every now and then (though working most of the time)
20:06	coventry	Could someone please tell me the right way to say "(seq dm)" in this macro? <https://www.refheap.com/18088> I'm not sure I understand the error message, either. What's with the map wrapping 'dispatch' in '{:instance dispatch}'?
20:08	amalloy	coventry: you can't write this macro this way. it's depending on the "runtime" value of dispatch, but generating code at compile time
20:08	amalloy	ie, defdispatch only sees the symbol 'dispatch, not a map with the keys 1 and 2
20:09	amalloy	(defdispatch foo {1 :foo 2 :bar}) would work fine
20:10	coventry	Oh, I need the dreaded double backtick?
20:11	coventry	Thank you.
20:11	amalloy	what. on
20:11	amalloy	no
20:11	seangrov`	hah
20:11	amalloy	you simply cannot write a macro that takes your input and produces your desired output
20:12	amalloy	(modulo the use of eval, which is evil and not a good solution)
20:13	mihneadb	amalloy: I set -Xmx1g and it 'works', but it's definitely hogging memory, its memory usage is just increasing. one file won't be larger than ~1 MB, and it is my impression that I'm holding only one in memory at a time
20:13	coventry	Thanks, I will think about it some more.
20:15	seangrov`	coventry: If the dispatch won't change at runtime, you can just pass it directly to your macro
20:15	seangrov`	e.g. (defdispatch foo {1 :foo 2 :bar})
20:16	amalloy	seangrov`: sure, but that's not really much better than just writing (defn foo [x] (case 1 :foo 2 :bar nil))
20:16	amalloy	i'd prefer the latter, personally
20:17	seangrov`	amalloy: Never miss a chance to use macros
20:18	callen	Axis of Eval
20:18	callen	Over-reliance on eval is the sign of a weak mind.
20:18	ddellacosta	I want to set the log level for a 3rd party Java lib (which uses log4j/slf4j), on the level of granularity of "just my tests," and not sure how to go about it--is there a simple programmatic way to do this? </java moron>
20:19	ddellacosta	would rather avoid properties files, but if that is best practice even for Clojure will do it.
20:21	ddellacosta	wow, I just killed the conversation on #clojure with that one.
20:22	Raynes	ddellacosta: Just give up and use properties files.
20:22	callen	ddellacosta: hrm. good question. Most Clojure libraries/apps I've seen use properties files in their resources to add a filter for any logline not coming from your tests
20:23	callen	ddellacosta: and then the log handler in the tests has a special prefix or something.
20:23	Raynes	If you try to make Java logging libraries do what you want, you're going to end up bloody and naked in the fetal position in the corner of a dark room.
20:23	callen	ddellacosta: that's more speaking to a pattern than defining what I think is truly an optimal solution though. If you find something better, speak up.
20:23	callen	also, Raynes is right.
20:23	ddellacosta	Raynes, callen: yah, I may be resigned to that. Honestly not sure the best way to handle it. Any experiences with clj-logging-config?
20:23	ddellacosta	Raynes: heh
20:24	callen	haven't used that lib, let me know how it goes >:)
20:24	ddellacosta	alrighty then, there but for the grace of god go I
20:33	coventry	amalloy, seangrov`: Are compile-time evals a bad choice for this kind of thing, too?
20:35	ddellacosta	that's hilarious--I added the clj-logging-config lib, ran set-logger! in my test setup, and now it's added logging messages telling me it is setting the log level, but doesn't seem to be making anything else quieter. sigh
20:40	callen	ddellacosta: if you look at the code for clj-logging-config, you might at least get an idea of the intent behind how it should work and how you might be able to reproduce what you want manually.
20:41	ddellacosta	callen: yes, you're absolutely right, I'm being lazy because this is not what I should be spending time on. I have to make the choice as to whether to really dig into it and learn how it works, or skip this for now and suffer through the noise. Choices, choices
20:42	callen	ddellacosta: I understand the desire to skip past the bits that don't directly contribute to the actual goal, but sometimes wiping the slate clean and reapproaching with an open zen mind and a desire to learn takes less time than thrashing.
20:42	callen	modulo yak shaving :)
20:43	ddellacosta	callen: haha. Yep, all true and good points.
20:43	callen	ddellacosta: and I meant it when I said I wanted to hear how it went, because this is something I've bumped into but side-stepped before. There may come a day when I cannot judo my way past the problem and anything you learn could be valuable.
20:43	callen	I'm working a logging library right now, although it doesn't currently touch any Java infrastructure.
20:44	ddellacosta	callen: alright, now you're giving me work to do! ;-)
20:44	callen	I just want to know how your problem resolves in the end, that's all.
20:44	ddellacosta	callen: seriously though, I've been putting this off for a while, so point taken and I think I'll dig into it. Here we go, will report back!
20:52	mihneadb	what's the 'idiomatic' way to download a file via http?
20:52	mihneadb	I found multiple ways on SO :s
20:57	technomancy	mihneadb: if you can, use slurp
20:58	technomancy	otherwise maybe a line-seq on clojure.java.io/reader
20:58	technomancy	otherwise clj-http
20:58	mihneadb	technomancy: would slurp work ok with binary files too?
20:58	technomancy	oh, no.
20:58	mihneadb	technomancy: I'm trying to write a scraper that downloads some logs that are gzipped text files
20:59	mihneadb	I'm having memory trouble
20:59	mihneadb	(tried with clj-http)
20:59	technomancy	clojure.io.java/input-stream might work though
20:59	mihneadb	technomancy: I don't find how to use it in the docs
20:59	technomancy	if it's memory trouble then you need to just stream it lazily
21:00	mihneadb	technomancy: so the files themselves are no bigger than 1MB from what I've seen, but I think my program is 'leaking'
21:00	mihneadb	technomancy: https://www.refheap.com/18089
21:01	callen	people in here that make private vars, please raise your hands.
21:01	callen	in libraries.
21:01	technomancy	callen: obvs?
21:02	callen	technomancy: I want them to raise their hands so I can cut them off.
21:02	callen	keep 'em high people.
21:02	callen	I'm side-stepping it in the usual way, but I'm still mad.
21:02	technomancy	yeah, being able to change implementation details without breaking all your downstream consumers is such a waste of time
21:03	technomancy	people should just get used to the fact that software changes, you know?
21:03	coventry	callen: How do you sidestep it? I am running into that problem.
21:03	callen	technomancy: fair point, but I'm already deep in alter-var-root land.
21:03	callen	implementation details are sort of the point in my case :)
21:03	technomancy	well, at least you won't be surprised when a new version breaks your code then
21:04	callen	technomancy: again, sorta expected.
21:04	callen	technomancy: it's a SQL logging library, nothing I can do about it. tracking c.j.j is the point.
21:04	callen	I'll have version lists with their corresponding c.j.j/korma versions in the README
21:07	muhoo	i generally run away screaming from things that are opinionatedly stateful.
21:07	mihneadb	technomancy: can I open the URL as inputstream and then use io/copy to download it to a local file?
21:07	technomancy	mihneadb: yeah, that should work
21:07	technomancy	should be buffered
21:07	technomancy	just be sure to use with-open
21:08	callen	muhoo: it's not about state, it's just that there's no way to write a SQL logging library without deeply integrating it into the library you're logging.
21:08	mihneadb	technomancy: with-open just for the input stream, for the output I can pass in (io/file my-path) to copy, right?
21:08	callen	muhoo: and it's not "stateful", the alter-var-root is for run-once decoration of behavior AOP style, not for ongoing stateful mutation.
21:09	callen	it's not my fault Clojure hasn't figured out how to do metaobject protocol stuff yet.
21:09	callen	there were established patterns for this in Common Lisp, here in the land of clj, I have to hack it up with alter-var-root.
21:09	callen	when somebody has an alternative, I'd love to hear it.
21:10	mihneadb	technomancy: like https://www.refheap.com/18090
21:10	mihneadb	?
21:14	swarthy	Is it possible to set 'let' bindings around multiple arity function definitions?
21:14	hyPiRion	swarthy: sure thing
21:14	hyPiRion	not different arities though, but the function itself
21:14	swarthy	I see, I have a var that I would like in all the arities within the function. I must be trying to do something wrong, I'll try something else.
21:16	hyPiRion	well, (let [val :the-val] (defn foo [a b] (str val a b))) should work fine
21:16	swarthy	Is that considered in bad taste? I'm fairly new to clojure.
21:18	`cbp	closures are never bad taste
21:22	hyPiRion	relatively. One can do (def ^:private val :the-val) before the defn instead to achieve the same result (except it'll be visible for all other functions in the namespace too)
21:22	swarthy	I see, thanks for you input hyPiRion.
21:22	swarthy	your*
21:22	hyPiRion	np
21:22	justin_smith	at least in cl, function definitions inside let are the normal way to make private data, especially if multiple definitions need that same binding but others should not see it
21:22	justin_smith	but I tend to see suspicion about def / defn that is not at the top level in clojure (maybe just because it is so often misused by people just starting)
21:22	swarthy	justin_smith: could you elaborate on that last point?
21:22	`cbp`	you could do (def f (let '
21:22	`cbp`	oops
21:22	justin_smith	swarthy: people use def inside a function because they don't know how to use let for example
21:22	`cbp`	(def f (let [..] (fn ..)))
21:23	justin_smith	but defining something inside a let is pretty much the oposite
21:23	callen	`cbp`: well, "never". Don't say that. I'll take it as a challenge to be an asshole and do something monstrous.
21:23	callen	But closures are often in good taste :)
21:23	swarthy	justin_smith: excellent thank you.
21:23	justin_smith	one issue is that if the let has side effects, you then have side effects at load time
21:23	justin_smith	so really you need something like (defn init [] (let [] ... (defn ...))) or else loading the file is not idempotent
21:24	justin_smith	unless you are certain nothing inside the let has side effects
21:24	justin_smith	that case of course calls for calling (init) before using the namespace
21:24	justin_smith	non-idempotent namespace load is evil
21:25	futile	the jvm doesn't fit into the unix philosophy of things that play well-ish together
21:25	justin_smith	unix is just designed with everything implementing the same protocol
21:25	swarthy	justin_smith: you have kind of lost me lol.
21:25	swarthy	justin_smith: on that last part
21:25	callen	justin_smith: don't...don't use the words unix and design in the same sentence.
21:25	justin_smith	hah
21:25	callen	justin_smith: it's misleading and sets people up for disappointment.
21:26	callen	it grew like a tumor.
21:26	callen	I say that despite rather liking unix, but lets be honest.
21:26	justin_smith	swarthy: regarding why non-idempotent namespace load is evil?
21:26	swarthy	yeah, or rather how to avoid it.
21:27	justin_smith	when loading a namespace has side effects, you get weird bugs, it is almost guaranteed
21:27	swarthy	what kind of side effect would be common
21:27	swarthy	again, I'm very new to clj and java
21:27	justin_smith	any code that is affected by the order it is evaluated and not just the content of its arguments should be explicitly called in an init function of some sort
21:27	justin_smith	so if you are setting the contents of an atom
21:28	justin_smith	or updating it
21:28	justin_smith	or creating a file
21:28	justin_smith	or reading it
21:28	justin_smith	etc.
21:28	swarthy	Okay, what about the case where the ns has a 'top level' function that reads a file but only after being called and with some args, not bound with a def, etc?
21:28	justin_smith	defonce helps with that as well
21:28	swarthy	is that still a smell
21:29	justin_smith	swarthy: that is fine, you just don't want code outside a function that has side effects that happen at load time
21:30	justin_smith	but someone who has been burnt by those bugs before will slow down and look twice at top level forms that are not definitions
21:30	swarthy	I see thank you, very educational.
21:30	justin_smith	so that can affect readability
21:32	justin_smith	np, I'm just someone who made mistakes so knows what not to do now
21:32	justin_smith	(and dealt with others' mistakes, etc.)
21:34	mihneadb	what's the best way to parallelize a doseq expression?
21:34	callen	swarthy: maintaining idempotent namespace loading is advisable in Python too.
21:35	callen	swarthy: this isn't just specific to Clojure.
21:35	coventry	Hmm, the twelth google result for "point lein to source-code for a library" was "Let me google that for you".
21:35	callen	coventry: ouch.
21:35	swarthy	I see thank you callen.
21:36	coventry	callen: I'm not hurt, personally. :-)
21:38	TimMc	mihneadb: So this would be a case where the bulk of the work is in the body of the doseq, not in the sequence generation itself? (Otherwise it definitely can't be parallelized in the general case.)
21:38	mihneadb	TimMc: yes, I want to run the body in parallel
21:38	mihneadb	I'm thinking of switching to pmap
21:38	mihneadb	+ dorun
21:38	mihneadb	TimMc: would something else be better?
21:38	TimMc	pmap is apparently trouble
21:39	mihneadb	:) why?
21:39	TimMc	I'm not sure, it's just the common wisdom of the channel.
21:39	TimMc	I don't do much with performance-sensitive concurrency, so I haven't listened too closely.
21:40	cgag	pmap's worked ok for me in the past
21:40	mihneadb	I see
21:40	mihneadb	I'm basically trying to donwload a bunch of logs and I figure I can download independent folders in parallel
21:41	cgag	maybe this is a use case for core.async?
21:41	mihneadb	cgag: does core.async spin off different threads?
21:41	cgag	create a bunch of go-blocks putting results in a channel?
21:42	mihneadb	I'll have to read about it
21:42	mihneadb	thanks!
21:42	mihneadb	(for the record pmap seems to work)
21:42	TimMc	I haven't seen anything useful in a quick search of http://clojure-log.n01se.net/, let's try the bot:
21:42	TimMc	~pmap
21:42	clojurebot	pmap is not what you want
21:42	cgag	yeah the go blocks are basically realy light weight threads as i understand it, multiplexed onto a smaller thread pool
21:43	mihneadb	cgag: nice, thanks
21:43	TimMc	I don't know why I thought that would be useful. :-P
21:43	mihneadb	I'll definitely check it out
21:43	mihneadb	clojurebot: ++
21:43	clojurebot	Excuse me?
21:44	cgag	mihneadb: i'm just throwing this out there, i don't really know for sure
21:44	mihneadb	right
21:45	mihneadb	thanks anyway :) might be what I need
21:45	TimMc	From 3 years ago: "amalloy: rplevy: the main issue is that pmap needs to be given a smallish number of large tasks in order to be useful, because it spawns a thread for each task"
21:45	TimMc	That may no longer be true, though. Perhaps it uses threadpools.
21:46	cgag	i was pretty confident it does use a thread pool
21:46	cgag	of #cores + 2
21:46	futile	Anyone wanna help me come up with a really simple-to-use-from-the-client-side IPC technique?
21:47	TimMc	futile: Well, first you generate a WSDL, and then...
21:47	futile	ahhhh!!!
21:47	futile	ruunnnn!!!!
21:47	futile	oh sorry
21:47	TimMc	Oh, wrong channel. I thought I was in #lovecraftian-horrors-for-programmers
21:47	futile	:D
21:48	egghead	futile: you could use the zeromq async thingy for ~inter process communication~
21:49	egghead	https://github.com/lynaghk/zmq-async if all you really need is for two processes to pass messages between one another that looks like a fun way to do it
21:49	egghead	s/two//
21:50	TimMc	mihneadb: So yeah, it looks like pmap is reasonable if each task is relatively heavyweight.
21:50	mihneadb	TimMc: I see
21:50	mihneadb	thanks
21:50	mihneadb	I read that it used thread pools as well
21:51	cgag	would it be a terrible idea to just create a ton of futures?
21:51	mihneadb	I don't know
21:52	davertron	I'm running into an issue with :advanced compilation with clojurescript: I'm using google maps, so I pass a function as a callback to its event handling. The event object that gets passed to the function has a LatLng property with lat() and lng() method calls, but these method calls get munged by the advanced compilation. How do I tell the closure compiler not to munge these?
21:53	TimMc	cgag: Then you'd have to do all the coordination yourself. :-P
21:53	TimMc	mihneadb: The source agrees.
21:53	mihneadb	:)
21:55	TimMc	Wait... it does call future.
21:55	cgag	what coordination? just spawn them all and map deref over them
21:55	dobry-den	davertron: i can't answer your question but i'd look here: http://lukevanderhart.com/2011/09/30/using-javascript-and-clojurescript.html and https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild/blob/master/sample.project.clj
21:55	TimMc	cgag: I don't think that gets you parallelization.
21:56	callen	SQL query logging library. Do I print arguments as well as the queries, or just the queries?
21:57	cgag	it would, i'm just not sure if it would create an absurd number of threads
21:58	cgag	creating a bunch of go-blocks feels right, but i'm not sure how you wait on them all to finish though
21:58	cgag	also i guess it wouldn't work if you need to get the results in a specific order
21:58	callen	cgag: by waiting on them to finish sending things through channels and then close the channels?
21:59	davertron	dobry-den: Thanks, I've read that first link and i'm using an extern, but unfortunately this is a callback that receives an object with specific methods on it, so there's no way to declare that object in the extern (that I know of). The sample.project.clj doesn't really provide anything beyond what I'm currently doing
21:59	callen	cgag: I'm pretty sure coordinating things with core.async centers around channels.
21:59	TimMc	cgag: Ah, so you're thinking (map deref (doall (map spawn-future xs))) ?
22:00	cgag	i imagined having one channel that each block would push its result into
22:00	cgag	TimMc: yeah
22:00	cgag	TimMc: it feels like a bad idea but i'm not sure why or if it actually is
22:01	TimMc	It would suck for a large (count xs).
22:01	cgag	doesn't it use a thread pool though?
22:01	TimMc	I thought that future used a thread pool, but the doc doesn't mention that...
22:02	mihneadb	TimMc: I'll bother you with one more question
22:02	mihneadb	I'm having trouble with lein uberjar
22:02	mihneadb	as in.. I get java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError when I try to run the jar
22:02	TimMc	You need some AOT up in there.
22:02	mihneadb	I did add (:gen-class :main true) to the core ns
22:02	mihneadb	TimMc: ahead of time? what?
22:03	TimMc	Just a (:gen-class) is fine, but yeah, you need to tell lein to compile that ns Ahead Of Time as well.
22:03	egghead	are you guys implementing pmap
22:03	mihneadb	TimMc: how do I do that/
22:03	TimMc	So that's :aot [my.core.ns] in your project map.
22:03	mihneadb	oh
22:03	mihneadb	ok
22:03	mihneadb	ty
22:04	TimMc	That will AOT all your namespaces transitively, so I wrote lein-otf if you want to restrict it to a little stub loader class.
22:04	mihneadb	TimMc: thanks. seems to have worked
22:04	mihneadb	it's enough for my current knowledge/reqs
22:04	TimMc	(Useful if you need to avoid AOT for some reason.)
22:07	mihneadb	TimMc: ok, all works. Would you mind taking a look and offering some style suggestions maybe?
22:08	`cbp`	i use (->> coll (map #(future..)) (doall) (map deref) (doall)) so much i feel there should be a macro for it or something :P
22:08	TimMc	I can't tonight, but someone else may be able to if you put it up on a pastebin (refheap or gist are preferred.)
22:10	`cbp	futures use the same threadpool as agents
22:11	mihneadb	TimMc: ok, thanks
22:11	mihneadb	style advice welcome - https://www.refheap.com/18091
22:21	TimMc	devn: ITYM "JAJJ".
22:21	devn	compass is so nice for writing cross-browser CSS
22:21	devn	really wish the ruby dep wasn't necessary
22:27	dnolen	seangrov`: tweaking your patch, there's a lot of related stuff that needs fixing, and the changes are bad for the REPL, needs be addressed. Still thanks for laying down the ground work this is the easy stuff.
22:31	callen	`cbp: write the macro, then submit a PR to flatland/useful.
22:40	seangrov`	Uhg, the dreaded Caused by: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: )
22:40	seangrov`	But in which file...
22:41	amalloy	seangrov`: look higher in the stacktrace
22:41	amalloy	the exception message includes the file/line it was reading, think
22:42	seangrov`	Ah, yes, the file, but not the line
22:42	seangrov`	But that's enough for now, I suppose
22:42	seangrov`	I feel like it should be somewhat possible for the cljs compiler to give a hint about the location
22:42	amalloy	oh, the cljs compiler
22:43	amalloy	perhaps that's why you don't get a line number; i'm reasonably sure the clj-jvm compiler includes it for mismatched delimiers
22:44	`cbp	I wonder which branch should i use, theres no readme or contribute :P
22:45	`cbp	develop i guess
22:45	dnolen	seangrov`: we can fix this now - tools.reader can do this
22:45	dnolen	seangrov`: if tools.reader tells us where reading failed we should print it
22:45	seangrov`	dnolen: That's what I was thinking
22:46	seangrov`	I can look into doing that, should be a few lines or less of change, right?
22:48	amalloy	`cbp: i don't want that macro anyway; useful already has too many bad functions for walking through collections on multiple threads
22:49	`cbp	aw =P
22:49	`cbp	time to start compiling my own utils lib
22:50	amalloy	an activity i encourage, although i gather some people frown on it
22:51	`cbp	what do they have against it?
22:52	amalloy	well, https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/WuS31RSiz_A is one stance
23:20	Acio	where can i find the valid function name characters?
23:21	dnolen	OK breaking ClojureScript change around keywords - http://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/2e8b32aa28399c69500e511377b1841a6679c9f2
23:21	dnolen	that cleans up a lot of messes that have lying around for 2 years
23:21	dnolen	please test this branch
23:21	dnolen	seangrov` and others
23:23	dnolen	it does seem to work lein cljsbuild just fine, I'll have to save performance testing and similar things for tomorrow.
23:23	bbloom	dnolen: oh boy oh boy oh boy :-)
23:23	bbloom	dnolen: sooo close to composite constants too!
23:23	dnolen	bbloom: very, just a few more tweaks
23:57	seangrov`	dnolen: Will check tonight or tomorrow
23:59	bbloom	how evil is it on the JVM to dynamically create lots of types at runtime?
23:59	bbloom	i know this is a question that will make you say "wtf do you want to do that for?"
23:59	Raynes	bbloom: wtf do you want to do that for?
23:59	bbloom	sigh