#clojure – 2013-07-26

2013-07-26

00:05	TimMc	...which it does, right?
00:09	callen	TimMc: the whole point of bcrypt is to produce hashes from values such that the relationship cannot be precomputed.
00:10	TimMc	Are you saying that bcrypt(A) sometimes produces B and sometimes produces not-B?
00:11	callen	...yes
00:11	mmarczyk	bcrypt uses a random salt which is included in the output
00:12	mmarczyk	along with the work factor (how many iterations of an expensive procedure to use)
00:12	Raynes	bcrypt would be an amazing thing if it didn't, let me tell you.
00:12	mmarczyk	then to verify it extracts salt, work factor and the actual hashed password
00:13	mmarczyk	the (plaintext, salt, work-factor) -> hashed output relationship is deterministic, of course
00:14	TimMc	Oh, sure.
00:14	alexgunnarson	Hey everyone! So… i'm looking to develop a write-once-deploy-anywhere Clojure app. I'm looking for a general direction to go in in terms of the platform. Clojure+JavaFx+Java+JVM, Clojure+Flex+Flash, ClojureScript+HTML+CSS… all of them are great but they have their own individual pros and cons. The JVM is fast and has amazing, mature, well-documented libraries. But, from what I've seen, it doesn't run on iOS or Android excep
00:14	alexgunnarson	with hacks (at least, not yet - waiting on Oracle there). Flash has great functionality and graphics, which Java only does moderately well by comparison, but Flash Player is proprietary and has terrible performance. And finally, HTML5 is supposed to be the future, but the spec's not even completed (2020, anyone?), it lacks key functionalities, it doesn't have uniform behavior across platforms and browsers, and it's not as
00:14	alexgunnarson	performance-geared as, for instance, the JVM. Thoughts?
00:14	callen	alexgunnarson: jesus dude.
00:14	alexgunnarson	:D
00:14	aka	ha
00:14	callen	alexgunnarson: just use Luminus.
00:16	alexgunnarson	callen: thanks for the suggestion. i'll look into that. what advantages does it have?
00:16	callen	alexgunnarson: I'm not here to play mixologist. If you want to make a web app with Clojure, just use Luminus.
00:16	callen	advantages - uhmmm, it won't fuck you around and will force you to just make your app instead of jacking off to acronyms.
00:17	Raynes	lol
00:17	aka	that should be it's official motto
00:18	alexgunnarson	yeah post that on the homepage
00:18	callen	I think yog is too professional for that.
00:18	Raynes	alexgunnarson: What callen is trying to say is that you're spending far too much time trying to find the best thing ever when you'd likely be better served by just doing what you want to do.
00:19	alexgunnarson	Raynes: if i "just did what i wanted to do" i'd be stuck with actionscript and flash and my app would be dead at some point
00:19	Raynes	Then don't use flash.
00:19	callen	alexgunnarson: do you want to make a web app in clojure or not?
00:19	Raynes	Flash isn't even supported on iOS.
00:19	Raynes	So I don't know how using flash would help you anyways if that's a goal.
00:20	alexgunnarson	Raynes: not in the browser but in AIR it is
00:20	Raynes	AIR isn't supported in Linux.
00:20	Raynes	And is a piece of shit regardless.
00:20	callen	AIR is garbage.
00:20	Raynes	When it was supported, everyone hated it.
00:20	alexgunnarson	i know… anything that uses flash player is terrible
00:20	Raynes	Well, that's not what I was saying.
00:20	aka	alexgunnarson: it is literally impossible to write software that runs everywhere and perfoms ideally on all platforms
00:21	Raynes	I enjoy flash games from time to time.
00:21	callen	Raynes: tower defense yo.
00:21	alexgunnarson	me too!
00:21	Raynes	You're just overthinking thing.
00:21	callen	so can we get back to the Clojure?
00:21	futile	callen: hey callen im working on some ObjC right now
00:21	alexgunnarson	aka: the JVM comes close and hopefully oracle will push it onto mobile platforms but we're still holding our breath on that
00:21	callen	futile: I don't care.
00:21	alexgunnarson	hahaha
00:21	futile	callen: you told me to say so!
00:22	aka	how is oracle going to push it to iOS?
00:22	callen	no I didn't.
00:22	callen	futile: in general, please don't talk to me unprompted.
00:22	callen	futile: I don't like ignoring people, but I don't like wanting to /ignore them either.
00:22	alexgunnarson	aka: they almost did back in like february or something i can't remember the date
00:22	futile	callen: stop talking about yourself
00:22	callen	futile: I'm talking about you.
00:22	futile	you're doing it again
00:22	Raynes	We really need moderators in here.
00:22	alexgunnarson	aka: they announced that it would happen but they never really carried their plans out
00:23	callen	Raynes: 4rlz.
00:23	Raynes	callen is too hostile, futile is too dumb.
00:23	Raynes	That combination is pretty deadly.
00:23	futile	ill fix it
00:23	callen	thank god
00:23	Raynes	Was it something I said? :\
00:23	alexgunnarson	yeah let's get some admin privileges in here
00:23	callen	problem is, he'll come back in 5 minutes then talk about how terrible of a person he is.
00:23	callen	Raynes: he does like that like every other day, don't take it personally.
00:24	Raynes	callen: Suggestion though: ignore him. You don't have to /ignore him. It's easy: you don't respond to what he says.
00:24	Raynes	I don't ignore anybody at all and I get by just fine.
00:24	callen	he takes over the channel too often
00:24	Raynes	And trust me, I hate people too.
00:24	callen	haha, fair enough :)
00:24	aka	alexgunnarson: how would they implement that? there is still going to be a disconnect from the native sdk
00:25	Raynes	Good news is that the language is popular enough now that this happens, callen.
00:25	Raynes	High schoolish fights and such.
00:25	callen	there's always an impedance mismatch between a generic toolkit and native. It's inescapable.
00:25	alexgunnarson	aka: hold on let me get the article
00:25	callen	Raynes: we need local dictators/warlords/ircops to police though.
00:25	aka	anyways, alexgunnarson, you want to build a mobile app or a web app?
00:25	Raynes	All three!
00:25	callen	Raynes: god willing.
00:26	callen	Raynes: also, do you use Xmonad?
00:26	Raynes	callen: I was responding to aka, but sure. :p
00:26	alexgunnarson	http://java.dzone.com/articles/oracle-gets-java-running-ios
00:26	callen	oh, woops.
00:26	Raynes	callen: I use OS X.
00:26	Raynes	I used xmonad ages ago when I still used linux.
00:26	alexgunnarson	"Oracle ADF Mobile uses a native container that runs applications on both iOS and Android from a single source base. One part of that native container is a headless/lightweight JVM."
00:26	callen	YourKit and jvisualvm don't seem to work with xmonad.
00:26	callen	This...deeply upsets me.
00:26	poggio	I'm using xmonad right now
00:26	callen	alexgunnarson: that doesn't change what I said.
00:26	callen	alexgunnarson: the impedance mismatch is in your code.
00:26	callen	alexgunnarson: not in the tools you're using.
00:26	alexgunnarson	although i suppose the "headless/lightweight JVM" might not support clojure…
00:27	alexgunnarson	callen: you have a point
00:27	callen	alexgunnarson: at best you could IFDEF and write specific platform code for each
00:27	callen	alexgunnarson: but then you're back to the days of C and C++
00:27	alexgunnarson	which would be terrible
00:27	callen	alexgunnarson: there is no "one platform to rule them all, and in the darkness bind them"
00:27	alexgunnarson	well okay for specific tasks
00:27	callen	well, it produced nice user experiences, even if it wasn't easy to work with as a developer.
00:27	alexgunnarson	which makes me sad, because i always loved LOTR :D
00:27	callen	alexgunnarson: why don't you tell us what you want to do?
00:27	Raynes	I booted into windows to play DmC: Devil May Cry callen. Why is this channel more entertaining than that game?
00:27	alexgunnarson	callen: very true
00:28	callen	Raynes: because I'm here, knocking heads.
00:28	callen	Raynes: why are you playing the bastard child DMC game?
00:28	Raynes	I've played all the others and not this one...
00:28	alexgunnarson	callen: i want to basically make a clojure OS that runs on the JVM
00:29	Raynes	o_o
00:29	callen	alexgunnarson: no.
00:29	alexgunnarson	haha
00:29	Raynes	If you want to invent an operating system, you probably shouldn't worry about interoperablity with... operating systems.
00:29	callen	probably shouldn't use a language that requires a VM host and an OS host.
00:29	alexgunnarson	well it's a virtual OS
00:30	Raynes	So it's emacs?
00:30	Raynes	~rimshot
00:30	clojurebot	Badum, tish
00:30	callen	Raynes isn't kidding though. lisp OS in a bucket.
00:30	samrat	callen: I think `export _JAVA_AWT_WM_NONREPARENTING=1` before running jvisualvm fixes it.
00:30	alexgunnarson	hmm. true. emacs haha
00:30	callen	samrat: I'll have to try that with yourkit as well. Thank you!
00:31	poggio	you may want to check this out as well, I needed to add it to my xmonad.hs http://xmonad.org/xmonad-docs/xmonad-contrib/XMonad-Hooks-SetWMName.html
00:33	ToBeReplaced	emacs hackers in terminal mode -- do you just use C-<right> and ilk for paredit instead of C-) ?
00:36	karvus	I do, but only because I'm in terminal mode seldom enough that I don't care enough to come up with a reasonable, alternative scheme.
00:40	ToBeReplaced	thanks
01:09	alexgunnarson	it seems like everyone's dead…
01:09	alexgunnarson	hey so how about concurrent, functional UIs? anyone seen this?: http://augustl.com/blog/2013/truly_concurrent_user_interfaces/
01:10	alexgunnarson	it's a project called concui
01:13	vilonis	I'm having trouble finding standard library documentation for clojure (even a list of all the modules), anyone know of a good source?
01:14	noidi	vilonis, http://clojure.github.io/clojure/
01:15	vilonis	ah, I wasn't sure if that was it
01:16	noidi	you can find usage examples etc. on http://clojuredocs.org/
01:16	brehaut	out of date examples
01:16	brehaut	clojuredocs.org is only current up to 1.3; 1.5.x the latest release
01:19	noidi	I don't think there have been many backwards-incompatible changes
01:19	noidi	it may be missing stuff but I doubt that many of the examples are wrong
01:21	futile	is callen gone yet?
01:21	futile	i love the clojure community, including the irc community. they're all such nice people.
01:22	zRecursive	sure
01:22	zRecursive	Clojure makes interested in Java again
01:22	zRecursive	makes me
01:23	futile	*you're all
01:23	futile	thats why im shocked callen hasnt been banned by now
01:26	SegFaultAX	I just got +b from #python for talking about dependency injection. :/
01:26	SegFaultAX	I knew they hated Java but shit.
01:27	SegFaultAX	Just explaining what it is to someone is enough to get +b
01:28	futile	SegFaultAX: that cant possibly be why
01:29	futile	SegFaultAX: theres nothing wrong with that as a concept, its perfectly legit and useful
01:30	SegFaultAX	futile: Read the scrollback.
01:30	futile	SegFaultAX: the dependency injection part?
01:30	noidi	you're pretty much doing dependency injection when you work with higher-order functions :P
01:31	futile	heh
01:31	futile	never thought of it that way
01:31	futile	not sure its right
01:31	noidi	me neither :)
01:32	SegFaultAX	futile: You'll see that right before I was +b, I was suggesting reading Martin Fowler.
01:32	noidi	I think there are some parallels with dependency injection if you're calling e.g. merge-with or sorted-map-by
01:33	mthvedt	as an enterprise java refugee, let me say a major reason for DI is composable execution contexts
01:33	futile	SegFaultAX: heh
01:33	mthvedt	this is huge when you have 1 million lines of bad java code expected to run in 50 places
01:34	mthvedt	with each module being a moving part
01:34	SegFaultAX	mthvedt: That and being able to swap out components for eg testing.
01:34	dpathakj	does anyone know an easy way to inspect a Clojure function's enclosing scope at runtime? e.g. suppose I do (defn incrementer [n] (fn [i] (+ i n))). is there a way to take (incrementer 5) and no other arguments, and return 5?
01:34	SegFaultAX	Integration testing without DI in Java is extremely painful.
01:34	futile	yea
01:34	futile	in ruby too
01:34	SegFaultAX	futile: Well in Ruby you can literally modify anything at runtime
01:35	SegFaultAX	Including the root objects that dominate the entire object tree.
01:35	futile	thats what makes it so painful
01:35	mischov	Has anybody else been having problems with Carmine not wanting to let a macro be build around wcar as shown in the github docs?
01:35	SegFaultAX	Kernel, Module, Object, BasicObject, etc.
01:35	futile	yeah
01:35	futile	you can just delete Kernel iirc
01:35	futile	that was fun
01:35	SegFaultAX	I don't think you can undef Kernel, but maybe.
01:35	dpathakj	(besides the obvious (- ((incrementer 5) 0) 0)… i'm wondering more about a reflection-type solution.
01:37	dpathakj	the closest thing i've found is clojure.repl/source, but that doesn't do what i'm thinking of.
01:37	futile	SegFaultAX: i remember using python before ruby and thinking how dumb it was that i could modify my own classes but not String or Object.
01:37	SegFaultAX	You mean str or object I assume.
01:37	futile	yep
01:37	futile	been too long
01:40	mthvedt	segfaultax: right, but that's a subset of setting up execution contexts.
01:40	SegFaultAX	mthvedt: I suppose that's true. Good point.
01:41	mthvedt	if/when big companies start writing millions of lines of bad clojure code, i wager clojure DI will become a lot more popular
01:42	noidi	,(require 'clojure.reflect)
01:42	clojurebot	nil
01:42	SegFaultAX	mthvedt: stuartsierra's blog post about his workflow is basically DI.
01:42	noidi	,(reflect (let [foo 10] (fn [] foo)))
01:42	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: reflect in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
01:42	noidi	,(clojure.reflect/reflect (let [foo 10] (fn [] foo)))
01:42	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: sandbox$eval84$fn__85>
01:43	noidi	dpathakj, oh well, for me that returns a map containing #clojure.reflect.Field{:name foo, :type long, :declaring-class user$eval171$fn__172, :flags #{}
01:43	SegFaultAX	noidi: I think it's disabled by clojail.
01:44	noidi	dpathakj, presumably you can then use something like https://github.com/arohner/clj-wallhack to get the field's value
01:46	futile	,(let [list [:foo :bar "baz" :quux :yay], [a [b & c]] (split-with (complement string?) list)] [a b c])
01:46	clojurebot	[(:foo :bar) "baz" (:quux :yay)]
01:47	dpathakj	noidi: cool. could be interesting. thanks.
01:51	dpathakj	(luckily I don't have a specific use case other than the toy problem I mentioned; this is more a matter of exploration…)
01:56	zRecursive	,(Math/sqrt 10000000000)
01:56	clojurebot	100000.0
02:09	futile	,(into {} (zipmap [1 2 3] [:a :b :c]))
02:09	clojurebot	{3 :c, 2 :b, 1 :a}
02:12	SegFaultAX	futile: Why?
02:12	futile	what SegFaultAX?
02:12	SegFaultAX	,(zipmap [1 2 3] [:a :b :c])
02:12	clojurebot	{3 :c, 2 :b, 1 :a}
02:24	futile	SegFaultAX: cuz i wanted to make a map from keys/vals
02:24	futile	,(map identity [1 2 3] [:a :b :c])
02:24	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core$identity>
02:24	futile	,(map vector [1 2 3] '[a b c])
02:24	clojurebot	([1 a] [2 b] [3 c])
02:26	futile	,(map #(hash-map :a %1 :b %2) [1 2 3] '[a b c])
02:26	clojurebot	({:a 1, :b a} {:a 2, :b b} {:a 3, :b c})
02:26	futile	is there a nicer way of doing that?
02:26	futile	,(map #(hash-map :a %1 :b %2) [1 2 3] '[4 5 6])
02:26	clojurebot	({:a 1, :b 4} {:a 2, :b 5} {:a 3, :b 6})
02:35	cespare\|home	When I start lein repl, it says it started nREPL on some port but it doesn't create target/. Isn't it supposed to?
02:35	cespare\|home	(nobody is responding on #leiningen)
02:35	callen	SegFaultAX: best reason to get banned I've ever heard.
02:39	futile	cespare\|home: i dont think target/ has anything to do with the port nrepl connects on.
02:39	futile	i think target is just a temporary place to put compiled files
02:39	cespare\|home	How does e.g. vim-fireplace know what port to listen on?
02:40	cespare\|home	by what I'm reading it looks for target/repl-port
02:53	SegFaultAX	cespare\|home: What port to listen on?
02:54	SegFaultAX	cespare\|home: Fireplace connects to nrepl.
02:55	Raynes	SegFaultAX: Yes. Over a port.
02:55	Raynes	Which it has to get from leiningen.
02:55	Raynes	And cannot get from Leiningen magically.
02:55	Raynes	It requires a file, just like cespare\|home said.
02:55	Raynes	cespare\|home: In any case, you can make it connect by using :Connect nrepl://localhost:<port> (it will autocomplete the first parts if you hit tab a couple of times).
02:56	SegFaultAX	Raynes: Does fireplace open a port? Maybe I misunderstood.
02:57	Raynes	SegFaultAX: If there is no port file, it gives up and creates a repl itself and then everything you evaluate takes 10 seconds to evaluate.
02:58	SegFaultAX	Raynes: Orly?
02:58	Raynes	It's better to connect to a running lein repl instance, which it can do if there is a port file there or if you use :Connect.
02:58	Raynes	No, I'm just kidding.
02:58	SegFaultAX	Heh
02:58	SegFaultAX	I didn't know that.
02:58	SegFaultAX	Thanks for the clarification.
02:59	SegFaultAX	I've never actually had fireplace spin up its own repl. I've /always/ connected to an already running one.
02:59	Raynes	If you go to a project that doesn't have a repl running and do cqc, it'll work.
03:01	SegFaultAX	Raynes: Does it spin up a new one everytime you evaluate something or does it persist across the rest of your session?
03:01	futile	(inc clojure)
03:01	lazybot	⇒ 14
03:01	futile	only 14?
03:01	futile	$karma clojure
03:01	lazybot	clojure has karma 14.
03:01	futile	$karma amalloy
03:01	lazybot	amalloy has karma 67.
03:02	futile	thats not right.
03:02	Raynes	SegFaultAX: I thought it persisted across your session, but given that it takes about a month to evaluate anything I expect I'm wrong.
03:02	Raynes	(identity futile)
03:02	lazybot	futile has karma 2.
03:02	futile	,(dotimes [i 10] (inc clojure))
03:02	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: clojure in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
03:02	futile	aww
03:02	zRecursive	(identity zRecursive)
03:02	lazybot	zRecursive has karma 0.
03:02	SegFaultAX	futile: Wrong bot.
03:02	Raynes	And it isn't actual code anyways.
03:02	Raynes	It's just parsing it to be clever.
03:02	futile	,(dotimes [i 10] (println "(inc clojure)"))
03:02	clojurebot	(inc clojure)\n(inc clojure)\n(inc clojure)\n(inc clojure)\n(inc clojure)\n(inc clojure)\n(inc clojure)\n(inc clojure)\n(inc clojure)\n(inc clojure)\n
03:03	Raynes	That wouldn't work either.
03:03	futile	didnt help.
03:03	Raynes	lazybot ignores clojurebot.
03:03	futile	awwww
03:03	zRecursive	:-D
03:03	zRecursive	karma 0
03:03	futile	(+ clojure 1000) ;; just make this work plz Raynes
03:03	noidi	,(list? '(1 2 3))
03:03	clojurebot	true
03:03	noidi	,(list? `(1 2 3))
03:03	clojurebot	false
03:04	futile	,(seq? '(1 2 3))
03:04	clojurebot	true
03:04	futile	,(seq? `(1 2 3))
03:04	clojurebot	true
03:04	futile	neat
03:04	noidi	that bug took me quite a while to find...
03:04	SegFaultAX	,`(1 2 3)
03:04	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
03:04	futile	noidi: ow
03:04	noidi	,(class `(1 2 3))
03:04	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Cons
03:04	futile	hmm, 2am. not good.
03:05	zRecursive	,(def song (ref #{}))
03:05	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
03:05	Raynes	&`(1 2 3)
03:05	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 3)
03:05	futile	&(inc clojure)
03:05	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: clojure in this context
03:05	futile	&(inc 'clojure)
03:05	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Symbol cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
03:05	futile	:D
03:05	Raynes	That's interesting.
03:05	futile	&'(inc clojure)
03:05	lazybot	⇒ (inc clojure)
03:05	Raynes	&(type `(1 2 3))
03:05	lazybot	⇒ clojure.lang.Cons
03:05	futile	Raynes: yeah, make it a built-in function.
03:06	Raynes	&(type '(1 2 3))
03:06	lazybot	⇒ clojure.lang.PersistentList
03:06	zRecursive	,(eval &'(inc clojure))
03:06	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
03:06	Raynes	I guess that'd do it, noidi.
03:07	futile	,((juxt type class) `(1 2 3))
03:07	clojurebot	[clojure.lang.Cons clojure.lang.Cons]
03:07	futile	,(= type class)
03:07	clojurebot	false
03:07	futile	oh
03:07	zRecursive	,(type type)
03:07	clojurebot	clojure.core$type
03:08	zRecursive	,(type class)
03:08	clojurebot	clojure.core$class
03:08	futile	,(doc type)
03:08	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns the :type metadata of x, or its Class if none"
03:08	futile	,(doc class)
03:08	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns the Class of x"
03:08	Raynes	You guys can get a repl by typing 'lein repl', by the way.
03:08	futile	ah
03:08	futile	but we're experisharilearning
03:08	Raynes	Look at all the people leaving because of you.
03:09	zRecursive	Raynes: can we message bot ?
03:09	Raynes	(leave guys, they need to think you're bothering them)
03:09	Raynes	See!
03:09	Raynes	zRecursive: Yes.
03:09	futile	(:O
03:09	callen	zRecursive: no, the bot broke IRC
03:09	zRecursive	Raynes: which bots to use ?
03:09	callen	zRecursive: the bot is a magical special case of IRC
03:09	Raynes	Either bots to use.
03:10	zRecursive	lazybot and clojurebot is same ?
03:10	futile	bedtime
03:10	Raynes	Not the same.
03:10	Raynes	They're completely different bots.
03:10	zRecursive	then message to who ?
03:11	Raynes	Either oen.
03:11	Raynes	one*
03:11	zRecursive	why not one bot as lambdabot in #haskell ?
03:13	callen	zRecursive: 'murica.
03:13	Raynes	Because it's entirely legal to write IRC bots and some people enjoy doing it.
03:13	Raynes	This isn't a democracy, we don't vote for bot president.
03:13	SegFaultAX	I for one... blah blah overlords.
03:14	zRecursive	see
03:14	metellus	a bot election
03:14	Raynes	lazybot supports abortion.
03:14	metellus	that would be.
03:14	Raynes	Just a heads up.
03:14	callen	Raynes: post-natal abortion of people that abuse bots in public channels?
03:15	Raynes	~rimshot
03:15	clojurebot	Badum, tish
03:47	cespare\|home	Is there a way to get the repl to automatically reload my project code when the file changes?
03:47	cespare\|home	(I'm using lein repl if that matters)
03:49	AtKaaZ	hi, was there a function that would return true if all items in collection would satisfy some passed function? ie. testfor(fun, [1,2,3,4]) where fun would test for equality let's say so if 1==2 then 2==3 then 3==4 then return true, else false; or something like that
03:49	SegFaultAX	,(every? even? [2 4 6])
03:49	clojurebot	true
03:50	AtKaaZ	does it work for equals?
03:50	AtKaaZ	like 2==4==6 ?
03:50	Chousuke	you can apply =
03:50	Chousuke	,(apply = [1 1 1])
03:50	clojurebot	true
03:50	AtKaaZ	oh yes that makes sense
03:50	AtKaaZ	so it's like (= 1 1 1)
03:51	SegFaultAX	AtKaaZ: Yes.
03:51	AtKaaZ	but suppose you don't have = that can take more than 2 params
03:51	Chousuke	you can reduce
03:51	AtKaaZ	so you can only do (= 1 1) or (fun 1 1)
03:51	SegFaultAX	,(every? #(= 1 %) [1 2 3])
03:51	clojurebot	false
03:51	SegFaultAX	,(every? #(= 1 %) [1 1 1])
03:51	clojurebot	true
03:51	Chousuke	though reduce won't be lazy
03:52	AtKaaZ	ok but I want that 1 inside the function to be the first element from the list
03:52	AtKaaZ	ie. not hardcoded
03:52	AtKaaZ	ok more like fun should take two params
03:52	SegFaultAX	AtKaaZ: What are you implementing? RLE?
03:52	Chousuke	AtKaaZ: just take it from the list then :P
03:52	AtKaaZ	(something? #(= %1 %2) [1 1 1])
03:52	AtKaaZ	no, I am just trying to remember the name of a clojure function which already does this
03:53	hyPiRion	,(let [[f & r] [1 2 3]] (every? #{f} r))
03:53	clojurebot	false
03:53	AtKaaZ	(cause i think there's one?)
03:53	SegFaultAX	AtKaaZ: Checking if every element = the first element is the same as applying =
03:53	AtKaaZ	wasn't there some justone function though?
03:54	AtKaaZ	SegFaultAX: you may be right, but I think I worded it wrongly
03:54	SegFaultAX	AtKaaZ: Tell us what you really want, then.
03:54	AtKaaZ	what I want is something like this (something? #(= %1 %2) [1 1 1]) where %1 and %2 is previous and next(or current) element
03:54	AtKaaZ	from that list
03:55	AtKaaZ	like comparing elements I think
03:55	SegFaultAX	How is that different from apply =. You're just doing it pair-wise.
03:55	amalloy	&(partition 2 1 [1 2 3])
03:55	lazybot	⇒ ((1 2) (2 3))
03:55	amalloy	SegFaultAX: he's asking for functions in general, not = in particular
03:56	SegFaultAX	He specifically asked for equals.
03:56	AtKaaZ	,(sort #(> %1 %2) [1 3 2 9 -1])
03:56	clojurebot	(9 3 2 1 -1)
03:56	hyPiRion	,(->> [1 2 3 4] (partition 2 1) (every? (fn [[a b]] (== (inc a) b))))
03:56	clojurebot	true
03:56	amalloy	equals was the example he gave
03:56	AtKaaZ	grr I think it's sort lol
03:56	SegFaultAX	,(sort-by > [1 2 3 4])
03:56	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4)
03:56	SegFaultAX	,(sort-by < [1 2 3 4])
03:56	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4)
03:56	AtKaaZ	yes that one, thanks guys! sorry for my poor expressive skills
03:56	SegFaultAX	What am I doing, haha.
03:57	hyPiRion	wat
03:57	SegFaultAX	AtKaaZ: You were looking for sort-by?
03:57	hyPiRion	sort is not taking the previous and next(or current) element
03:57	AtKaaZ	for sort I think, why did your sort-by give the same results?
03:58	AtKaaZ	oh ?
03:58	AtKaaZ	wait actually it's not sort, because it returns a list xD
03:58	AtKaaZ	and i want it to return true or false depending on what function returns when taking elements by 2
03:58	hyPiRion	,(sort-by :foo > [{:foo 1} {:foo 2} {:foo -5}])
03:58	clojurebot	({:foo 2} {:foo 1} {:foo -5})
03:59	hyPiRion	when taking elements by 2 -> elaborate
03:59	AtKaaZ	(somefn? #(> %1 %2) [1 2 3 4 5]) returns true but (somefn? #(> %1 %2) [1 2 3 5 4 6 7]) returns false
03:59	SegFaultAX	,(sort-by identity > (range 10))
03:59	clojurebot	(9 8 7 6 5 ...)
03:59	SegFaultAX	I forgot keyfn was first that's all.
03:59	cespare\|home	AtKaaZ: hyPiRion already gave you your answer
04:00	AtKaaZ	cespare\|home, where? I missed it
04:00	cespare\|home	you can use partition to get the pairs of two, and then use every?
04:00	hyPiRion	,(->> [1 2 3 4] (partition 2 1) (every? (fn [[a b]] (== (inc a) b))))
04:00	clojurebot	true
04:00	AtKaaZ	ah, but wasn't there just one function?
04:00	hyPiRion	^
04:00	SegFaultAX	AtKaaZ: Wrap it in a defn and it will be.
04:00	hyPiRion	just one function?
04:00	AtKaaZ	I mean, some idiomatic function that does it
04:00	SegFaultAX	AtKaaZ: Do you mean something in clojure.core?
04:01	AtKaaZ	(somefn? #(= %1 %2) [1 2 3 4 5]) returns false; and (somefn? #(= %1 %2) [1 1 1 1 1]) returns true;
04:01	amalloy	AtKaaZ: there is no single pre-built function that does the six things you are asking for
04:01	AtKaaZ	somefn? aka one function :)
04:01	amalloy	you will have to build one
04:01	AtKaaZ	lol
04:01	cespare\|home	AtKaaZ: you can do it with a complicated reduce, i think.
04:02	SegFaultAX	AtKaaZ: You keep using =, but is your actual use case just for general functions?
04:02	AtKaaZ	yes SegFaultAX
04:03	SegFaultAX	AtKaaZ: Then you have your answer.
04:03	AtKaaZ	ok thank you :(
04:03	hyPiRion	AtKaaZ: you can spin it off in another way
04:04	cespare\|home	,(reduce = (map #(apply = %) (partition 2 1 [1 2 3 4])))
04:04	clojurebot	false
04:04	cespare\|home	AtKaaZ: ^^ another way.
04:04	hyPiRion	,(let [foo [1 2 3 4]] (->> (map #(= %1 (inc %2)) foo (rest foo)) (every? true?)))
04:04	clojurebot	false
04:05	AtKaaZ	:) but still I failed to find that one function, so either I am remembering wrongly(likely the case but sad) or I am unable to find that one function
04:05	SegFaultAX	If it's acceptable to process the entire list maybe.
04:05	SegFaultAX	AtKaaZ: What difference does it make? Why does it need to be from clojure.core?
04:06	amalloy	cespare\|home: what on earth is that function supposed to do?
04:06	AtKaaZ	SegFaultAX: it's because i wanted to know the name of that function xD to see if other langs have it
04:06	cespare\|home	amalloy: which function?
04:06	cespare\|home	oh oops.
04:06	amalloy	the one you just offered. it seems to return true if either all the elements are the same or they are all pairwise different
04:07	AtKaaZ	amalloy: assert thatfun(testfn, a,b,c,d,e) where thatfun applies testfn to a and b then to b and c etc...
04:07	AtKaaZ	so my use case was for = but still
04:07	cespare\|home	,(every? true? (map #(apply = %) (partition 2 1 [1 1 1 2])))
04:07	clojurebot	false
04:08	cespare\|home	amalloy: ^^ is what I meant
04:08	SegFaultAX	Your use case is for =... we answered that 10 minutes ago.
04:08	amalloy	cespare\|home: but like hyPiRion and SegFaultAX have already said, that's just a bad way to write (apply = [1 1 1 2]))
04:08	cespare\|home	is there an easier way to do (every? true? ...)?
04:08	AtKaaZ	SegFaultAX, was it with apply = ?
04:08	cespare\|home	SegFaultAX: false, you can put any other function instead of =
04:08	hyPiRion	cespare\|home: reduce =
04:09	cespare\|home	hyPiRion: not the same
04:09	hyPiRion	cespare\|home: reduce = true
04:09	hyPiRion	,(reduce = true [false])
04:09	clojurebot	false
04:09	hyPiRion	,(reduce = true [])
04:09	clojurebot	true
04:09	cespare\|home	ok, that's more characters though
04:09	hyPiRion	it's obviously not easier though
04:10	SegFaultAX	,(reduce = true [false false])
04:10	clojurebot	true
04:10	SegFaultAX	So no.
04:10	cespare\|home	ruby has all?, i was hoping for the same.
04:10	SegFaultAX	,(reduce = true [true false false])
04:10	clojurebot	true
04:10	SegFaultAX	^ that was amalloy's point
04:11	hyPiRion	yeah, bugger.
04:11	SegFaultAX	cespare\|home: That's what every? is, but more general.
04:11	hyPiRion	apply = true it is then
04:11	SegFaultAX	cespare\|home: You could do (every? identity ...) and that's the same.
04:12	SegFaultAX	cespare\|home: To match ruby's impl, we don't care that they all equal exactly true... only true in a boolean context ("truthy")
04:13	SegFaultAX	Which for clj is anything other than nil and false.
04:13	AtKaaZ	,(and true true false)
04:13	clojurebot	false
04:13	cespare\|home	SegFaultAX: right, it would be convenient if, if you didn't specify a pred, it used a default check for truthiness
04:14	cespare\|home	haha, 'and' would indeed do that heh.
04:14	hyPiRion	convenient sure, but it wouldn't increase your productivity by some factor.
04:14	SegFaultAX	cespare\|home: Doubtful. How often are you really checking if every item is not nil or false?
04:14	cespare\|home	uh, in the context where it just came up?
04:14	cespare\|home	where I know each item is true or false?
04:14	SegFaultAX	cespare\|home: But AtKaaZ's case is after applying a predicate function :)
04:15	AtKaaZ	yeah, I remember it could take a function
04:15	SegFaultAX	cespare\|home: So why have (every? (map pred L))?
04:15	hyPiRion	(every? true? ...) is more evident than (every? ...) though.
04:15	AtKaaZ	and it would apply it to each element, however I don't remember if it would need an extra element to apply it to first one like (fn 0 firstelem)
04:15	SegFaultAX	hyPiRion: If you only care about /actually true/, right.
04:16	cespare\|home	SegFaultAX: ah this is true.
04:16	SegFaultAX	cespare\|home: (every? pred L) is clearly cleaner and more general.
04:16	hyPiRion	SegFaultAX: Sure. And if not, do (not-any? #{nil false} ...) instead
04:17	SegFaultAX	cespare\|home: In ruby, you most often apply all? with a block anyway.
04:17	SegFaultAX	[1,2,3].all? { \|e\| e % 2 == 0 }
04:17	hyPiRion	(every? even? [1 2 3])
04:18	hyPiRion	see, you're using pred the same way really
04:18	AtKaaZ	maybe it was like this: (thefn pred 0 [1,2,3,4,5]) and it would apply (pred 0 1) and if true continues, apply (pred 1 2) ... so on until false then return false
04:18	SegFaultAX	hyPiRion: Exactly.
04:18	cespare\|home	SegFaultAX: yes i saw your point, which is why i agreed with you.
04:19	SegFaultAX	Ruby's iterator protocol is pretty neat. Implement 1 method (#each) and you can mixin Enumerable to get a bunch of stuff for free.
04:20	cespare\|home	lol, took me forever. Does this work then? (defn atkaaz [f s] (every? #(apply f %) (partition 2 1 s)))
04:20	cespare\|home	(atkaaz = [1 1 1 1]) -> true
04:20	cespare\|home	(this is literally my first day writing clojure btw)
04:20	AtKaaZ	cool then, seems to do the job :)
04:20	AtKaaZ	(I don't really know clojure though, as if that's not obvious haha)
04:20	SegFaultAX	You could have a second clause that takes n, the size of the slice to use.
04:21	cespare\|home	(atkaaz < [1 2 3 4]) -> true
04:21	AtKaaZ	SegFaultAX, i'm glad i found functional ruby aka elixir :)
04:22	SegFaultAX	,((fn atkaaz ([f s] (atkaaz 2 f s)) ([n f s] (every? #(apply f %) (partition n 1 s)))) = [1 1 1 1])
04:22	clojurebot	true
04:22	SegFaultAX	,((fn atkaaz ([f s] (atkaaz 2 f s)) ([n f s] (every? #(apply f %) (partition n 1 s)))) 3 = [1 1 1 1])
04:22	clojurebot	true
04:22	SegFaultAX	Not a good test case, but yea.
04:23	AtKaaZ	almost hurts my head trying to understand it lol
04:31	AtKaaZ	almost like map-indexed except it doesn't pass the index but the previous element heh
04:32	AtKaaZ	almost like reduce... hmm maybe I remember reduce wrongly
04:49	AtKaaZ	oh man, I really think I remembered reduce wrongly(maybe also combined it with every? in my head and saw it as 1 function), and that's the one function that I thought did what I expected, sad so sad but must accept it: I was wrong
04:57	Guest__	how do i put the contents of a vector into a map? i use (into {} (partition 2 [1 2 3 4])).
04:58	Guest__	what am i doing wrong here?
04:58	Guest__	thanks. :)
05:00	hyPiRion	,(conj {} '(1 2)) ; no work
05:00	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry>
05:00	hyPiRion	,(conj {} [1 2]) ; works
05:00	clojurebot	{1 2}
05:00	hyPiRion	But even better, use ##(apply hash-map [1 2 3 4])
05:00	lazybot	⇒ {1 2, 3 4}
05:00	Guest__	hyPiRion thanks!
05:03	ucb	beat me to it
05:04	ucb	:)
05:41	ddellacosta	is there a way to ensure I'm using the === operator in ClojureScript?
05:42	ddellacosta	ah, from looking at source, looks like I use "=="
07:05	mmarczyk	ddellacosta: identical? actually
07:06	mmarczyk	ddellacosta: unless dealing with numbers, in which case it's indeed ==
07:07	ddellacosta	mmarczyk: thanks!
07:07	mmarczyk	np
09:12	stuartsierra	An experiment: clojure.walk reimplemented with protocols https://github.com/stuartsierra/clojure.walk2
10:02	dsapala	Does anyone here know why I might get "Entity used in relationship does not exist" in Korma when I "defentity" in a function? I'm doing a "declare" before the function to make sure they're "def"'d.
10:05	dsapala	I'm trying to use Stuart Sierra's approach to clojure workflow (http://thinkrelevance.com/blog/2013/06/04/clojure-workflow-reloaded) and this is the only thing I haven't been able to overcome yet.
11:01	futile	what's the point of interning clojure symbols if it always creates a new one?
11:02	gfredericks	,(identical? (symbol "foo") (symbol "foo"))
11:02	clojurebot	false
11:03	gfredericks	futile: you might be referring to a different thing?
11:03	futile	possibly the same thing
11:03	gfredericks	what interning are you talking about?
11:03	futile	gfredericks: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/crmUDnGIVCg
11:04	futile	,(Symbol/intern. "foo")
11:04	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: Symbol, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
11:04	futile	,(clojure.lang.Symbol/intern. "foo")
11:04	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method: intern., compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
11:04	futile	,(clojure.lang.Symbol/intern "foo")
11:04	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
11:04	futile	that one
11:05	gfredericks	futile: I don't know for sure but I think the point here is to avoid duplicating the String objects
11:05	futile	ok
11:05	gfredericks	symbols themselves can't be interned simply (like keywords can) because of metadata
11:05	futile	oh right
11:06	gfredericks	or conversely, keywords can't have metadata so that they can be interned simply :)
11:29	futile	$mail brehaut btw hopefully this gets rid of the confusion: https://github.com/sdegutis/zephyros
11:29	lazybot	Message saved.
12:03	mbarbieri	hi, midje question: I have a data structure (map with keywords as keys and lists of lists as values) and I want to test some functions I wrote to get values from it, but I don't want to use the actual structure, because it could change.
12:04	mbarbieri	if this is my data: (def mydata {:blah [[1 2 3] [4 5 6]]} I thought I could substitute it with a test version of it, using (let [mydata my-test-date] …tests…) but it doesn't work
12:06	futile	mbarbieri: I've been solving that issue by considering the data structure opaque, and writing functions that return everything I need to know about it, in a way that's not determined by the original data structure.
12:06	futile	mbarbieri: if the data structures have to change, then only those functions that access it have to change, nothing else in my program does, since those functions will always return the data in the same structure
12:07	asteve	does anyone have examples on parsing dates?
12:08	asteve	I'd like to take a string in the format YYYYmmdd and create a java.util.Date object from it
12:08	asteve	I'm not sure if that's the clojure way
12:08	futile	,(.parse (SimpleDatFormat. "yyyy") "1985")
12:08	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Unable to resolve classname: SimpleDatFormat, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
12:09	futile	,(.parse (java.text.SimpleDateFormat. "yyyy") "1985")
12:09	clojurebot	#inst "1985-01-01T00:00:00.000-00:00"
12:09	futile	re asteve
12:09	mbarbieri	futile: it's what I'm doing, I had this data structure, and now it changed, so I'm trying to write some function to access it and keep the data structure opaque, my question was about testing it with midje
12:10	futile	mbarbieri: well it doesnt matter what lib you use to test it, you'd do it the same way: have functions that create this opaque data structure for you, rather than creating it yourself.
12:10	futile	mbarbieri: in fact id argue midje encourages the bad practice of re-binding functions to return data structures you created in the test, which you shouldnt do anyway
12:11	futile	it just causes fragility problems
12:12	mbarbieri	futile: ok now I get it: have functions that create the data structure. Noted. Thanks!
12:13	futile	mbarbieri: yeah, let the data structure be entirely encapsulated in your src/ file, dont let test/ files know anything about it
12:19	mbarbieri	futile: entirely is a dynamically binded var right? :)
12:20	futile	#<Unbound Unbound: #'mbarbieri/entirely>
12:31	g06\|in	why doesn't this work -- (.printf System/out "!") ?
12:36	ToxicFrog	g06\|in: interesting. System/out is a java.io.PrintStream, which has two printf methods, printf(Locale, String, Object...) and printf(String, Object...)
12:36	gfredericks	having java varargs means you need to pass an array
12:36	ToxicFrog	Something like (.printf System/out "!" nil) works
12:36	ToxicFrog	Aah
12:36	gfredericks	(.printf System/out "!" (into-array []))
12:36	gfredericks	also works
12:36	g06\|in	thanks!
12:36	gfredericks	g06\|in: note clojure.core/format
12:36	gfredericks	in case that's what you really want
12:38	scgilardi	or clojure.core/printf
12:38	gfredericks	oh right
12:38	gfredericks	of course :)
12:38	g06\|in	thanks!!
12:46	redderhs	Hi, the link in this message is in regards to an Open Source Computing to further the developments of hardware for the mobile industry. It's time for Linux to be the #1 Consumer Operating System, Ubuntu Edge movement! http://pastebin.com/j57Dc29E We can all make a difference for as little as One Dollar! Thank You for your time.
12:56	aka	there are commercials in this channel?
12:56	gfredericks	not welcomed, no
12:59	aka	:)
13:09	wink	damn ubuntu zealots
13:35	callen	what a bastard.
13:50	futile	just wrote a book proposal and realized i already own a book that has exactly the same chapters, and i just never opened it before.
13:51	callen	futile: do you have a facebook or twitter account?
13:54	seangrove	Uhg, NPE when running cljsbuild test. Incredibly frustrating
13:57	wei_	poll: which clojurescript data binding library do you use? cljs-binding, purnam, something else?
13:58	futile	callen: no
13:58	futile	callen: why?
13:58	seangrove	wei_: Please update us on the poll results when they're in ;)
13:59	callen	futile: it's a good outlet for random thoughts like that
13:59	callen	futile: you should try 'em.
13:59	futile	callen: oh. didnt realize i was doing irc wrong.
13:59	futile	it was about Clojure, does that make it relevant?
14:00	callen	futile: try to think in terms of the utility others might derive from it.
14:00	callen	futile: you couldn't tell you were talking about Clojure, or what book you were talking about
14:00	wei_	seangrove: will do, if there's enough responses!
14:00	callen	futile: you speak for your own benefit and it's obvious.
14:00	futile	callen: oh i see.
14:01	futile	you're just a prick. a total prick.
14:01	futile	well i think maybe we'd be better off if you were banned.
14:01	futile	callen: you make this channel horrible to be in.
14:01	futile	or rather, you're horrible to be around.
14:01	justin_smith	look who's talking
14:02	callen	I'll get some gauze and ointment for that burn. back in a flash.
14:02	callen	(inc justin_smith)
14:02	lazybot	⇒ 4
14:13	ToBeReplaced	will mapply or something like it make its way into clojure core?
14:15	bbloom	ToBeReplaced: monad apply?
14:15	bbloom	ToBeReplaced: i don't foresee any kind of monad stuff making it into core any time soon
14:15	ToBeReplaced	,mapply?
14:15	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: mapply? in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
14:15	bbloom	even if it was of interest, it's always best to assume core won't change fast enough for your needs
14:15	ToBeReplaced	hm...i thought there was a clojurebot thing for mapply
14:16	bbloom	~mapply
14:16	clojurebot	You could (defn mapply [f & args] (apply f (apply concat (butlast args) (last args))))
14:16	bbloom	ooooh that kind of mapply
14:16	pgr0ss	does anyone know how to test a compojure app that uses cemerick/friend? i can't find a way to setup a fake session that bypasses the authentication
14:18	ToBeReplaced	bbloom: yeah i seem to use it a fair amount
14:18	pgr0ss	i tried grabbing the value of :session from a real requst, and then assoc'ing it (request :post "/url_behind_auth" :session saved-session) but friend still seems to think the request is unauthenticated
14:19	bbloom	ToBeReplaced: i haven't felt the need, or maybe i just think about it differently. curious: what do you use it for?
14:19	justin_smith	pgr0ss: what about conditionally bypassing the friend code by wrapping the handler in a conditional?
14:20	justin_smith	something like (if (= (System/getProperty "debug") "true") (handler request) (handler (friend request)))
14:21	ToBeReplaced	optional keyword arguments -- i was about to open source a lib to connect clojure.java.jdbc specs to c3p0, and realized i would prefer to use it there
14:21	ToBeReplaced	ie (pool db :max-statements 10), or (pool db)
14:22	pgr0ss	justin_smith: I suppose I could, but then I can't test that some routes require auth, some don't
14:22	pgr0ss	justin_smith: also, what about code that relies on the current logged in user?
14:22	justin_smith	pgr0ss: yeah, that would be an issue, I don't know enough about friend to know how to best handle that
14:22	bbloom	ToBeReplaced: ah. i try to avoid optional keyword arguments like that or provide an alternative "plumbing" function that takes a normal map
14:23	justin_smith	pgr0ss though you could manufacture a request map that is sure to be denied if auth is required, and succeed otherwise
14:23	ToBeReplaced	bbloom: my default is to expose the unrolled version, and use the collected version internally
14:23	justin_smith	pgr0ss: and similarly, you could manufacture a map with the user data when you bypass friend
14:23	bbloom	ToBeReplaced: hm, yeah those sorts of optional kw args seem to only really be useful for "porcelain" commands that will be used at the repl
14:23	bbloom	but even then, i tend to prefer maps
14:23	pgr0ss	justin_smith: yeah, that's what i'm trying to do - i can't seem to get a request map that satisfies friend authentication
14:24	justin_smith	pgr0ss: this is how I unit test web apps with session / auth at least
14:24	justin_smith	that is why I suggested optionally turning the auth off
14:24	ToBeReplaced	bbloom: you would rather pack up connection pool options? my reason for not is that typically you wouldn't be calling this with a configuration from somewhere else
14:25	ToxicFrog	bbloom: why (apply concat (butlast args) (last args)) rather than (apply concat args)?
14:25	justin_smith	ie. manufacture the session friend would return for testing code needing user in session, and then verify that friend doesn't let you in when not bypassing it on the right routes, that covers the two cases you mentioned
14:25	bbloom	ToxicFrog: i find that the map versions are much easier to work with and don't mind the extra two chars in general :-)
14:25	bbloom	not the least of which, is the need for something like that mapply function
14:26	ToxicFrog	bbloom: not the question I'm asking.
14:26	pgr0ss	justin_smith: got it; yeah, maybe i'll go down this route if i can't seem to figure out how to test with friend dirctly
14:26	bbloom	ToxicFrog: (last args) is assumed to be a map
14:26	ToxicFrog	Aah
14:26	bbloom	sorry, that previous message was for ToBeReplaced
14:27	justin_smith	pgr0ss: the way I generally test controllers is to mock up the request as it hits the controller
14:27	justin_smith	since my controllers are less stable than my request handler (generally)
14:27	ToBeReplaced	ToxicFrog: the last argument is assumed to be a map, so concat flattens it out
14:28	justin_smith	and then I test each handler fn in isolation, if it tests well, it should compose properly
14:28	ToxicFrog	bbloom: so the result basically ends up as [arg1 arg2 .. argn [k1 v1] [k2 v2] [k3 v3]]
14:28	ToxicFrog	?
14:28	bbloom	ToxicFrog: the idea is to call a function like (f arg1 arg2 :kwarg1 1 :kwarg 2) like this: (mapply f arg1 arg2 {:kwarg1 :kwarg 2})
14:29	bbloom	er, only with a correctly typed map: {:kwarg1 1 :kwarg2 2}
14:30	ToBeReplaced	bbloom: i'm wondering whether if map were available, the unrolled version would be more widely used
14:30	ToBeReplaced	*mapply
14:31	Raynes	Which Haskell web framework is trying the least to be rails?
14:31	ToBeReplaced	it's in the library coding standards, and is practical i think
14:32	Raynes	That sounds like something totally non confrontational to put on twitter!
14:32	hexa	Hi all , I'm been juggling around a little problem , say I want to create a map based on multiple functions returning keys and taking the same argument list ... would using comp and having the result be like [result-map argument-list] be a good idea or I'm missing a simpler way... ? (I'm building multiple parts of web page)
14:33	troydl	Howdy, quick question if I may: Is there a function to spit out a range of letters the way (range 0 5) works for numbers?
14:33	bbloom	ToxicFrog: shrug
14:33	Raynes	<smug>sounds like you want a monad, hexa</smug?
14:33	justin_smith	hexa: juxt?
14:33	ToxicFrog	bbloom: ?
14:33	Raynes	>
14:33	Raynes	hexa: juxt is probably what you want, but it's hard to tell unless we saw what the code takes and returns for real.
14:33	bbloom	ToxicFrog: dunno if it would see more use or what the best decision is. i was just curious about your need for it. thanks for explaining
14:34	justin_smith	hexa: if the functions should all receive the same args, and you don't want laziness, juxt is a perfect match
14:34	ToxicFrog	bbloom: what need for it? I'm confused
14:34	hexa	Looks like this : https://www.refheap.com/16937
14:34	hexa	checking juxt :)
14:34	bbloom	ToxicFrog: gah, sorry
14:34	bbloom	ToBeReplaced: that was for you again ^^
14:34	bbloom	ToxicFrog: you're a victim of my two-characters-then-tab expansion strategy that my fingers have memorized
14:35	ToxicFrog	troydl: (->> (range (int \a) (int \z)) (map char)) ?
14:35	hexa	Right juxt is it thx!
14:35	justin_smith	hexa: in that code, should test-map1 and test-map2 see the same args or different?
14:35	justin_smith	if they should see the same args, yeah juxt
14:35	Raynes	bbloom: Whenever Raynos talks after me, people start exploding into flames because their clients usually prefer tab completion for whoever talked last.
14:35	ToxicFrog	,(->> (range (int \a) (int \k)) (map char))
14:35	clojurebot	(\a \b \c \d \e ...)
14:36	Raynes	It's quite entertaining.
14:36	hexa	justin_smith, same args
14:36	bbloom	Raynes: damn irc clients need fuzzy completion or CamelHumpsOrSomething
14:36	Raynes	snaplets make no sense.
14:36	bgilbert	troydl: I've used this before: (def all-chars
14:36	bgilbert	(map char (range 97 123)))
14:37	bgilbert	,(take 10 (map char (range 97 123)))
14:37	clojurebot	(\a \b \c \d \e ...)
14:37	justin_smith	,(char 96) ; is jealous to not be considered a char
14:37	clojurebot	\`
14:38	troydl	Thanks guys. Neocons didn't like dealing with numbers as keywords. I ended up doing (map keyword (repeatedly 3 gensym)) which seems to have worked out.
14:38	antares_	troydl: Neo4j does not like dealing with numbers as keywords, so does Neocons
14:38	troydl	Right
14:40	justin_smith	neocons huh, someone should make a sbcl backend for clojure and call it newleft (sbcl - steel - stalin getitlol)
14:40	Raynes	callen: Oh callen, look at you hiding in the twitters.
14:41	troydl	justin_smith: Lol, yeah the name neocons makes for some interesting google results when I have problems
14:41	callen	Raynes: Scotty.
14:41	Raynes	callen: Have you played with snap at all?
14:41	justin_smith	*2g1c
14:41	justin_smith	that is
14:42	Raynes	callen: Is it just me, or do snaplets sound absolutely batshit bloody insane. It's like "Hey, don't use libraries, write this weird ass special thing for our web framework cuz cool!"
14:42	callen	Raynes: it's a combinatorial framework
14:42	callen	Raynes: I avoided it like the plague.
14:42	Raynes	It's like the antithesis of all things that are good in functional languages.
14:42	callen	beyond using some lower level tooling
14:42	callen	Raynes: I mean, you're describing a lot of Haskell in general.
14:42	callen	"COOL SHIT JUST CUZZZZZ"
14:42	Raynes	I just don't get why it's all so terrible.
14:43	Raynes	Yesod is a monstrous nuclear disaster zone with the worst dependency tree I've ever seen and so many template Haskell hacks that I'm not sure the language still qualifies as Haskell when you write it.
14:43	callen	That's why Yesod gets its own book.
14:43	callen	not for making web apps, just for explaining/apologizing for Yesod.
14:44	Raynes	I feel mean for saying all this, but goodness.
14:44	callen	Raynes: I don't think Haskellers have ever had a notion of making a thing that does things.
14:44	justin_smith	I dunno if the amount of haskell discussion on this channel should make me glad we are keeping up with the joneses or make me jealously wonder if they are talking about clojure on #haskell
14:44	callen	at least the Scala people get work done in-between hacking on scalaz and making periodic table of operator libraries.
14:45	Raynes	callen: And now I'm sad because the homepage for Scotty is a .edu page.
14:45	callen	Raynes: it's the best way to make a web app in Haskell I've found. Sorry :)
14:45	callen	justin_smith: they don't talk about Clojure in #haskell because they're too busy ENDOFUNCTOR MONOID HILBERT SPACE
14:45	Raynes	I wonder if anyone has written actual websites in snap or yesod. Like. ones humans can look and interact with.
14:46	justin_smith	I think there are mathematical jargon spaces that are compact enough that a markov chain could hold its own for a while
14:46	callen	Raynes: lots of Haskeller blogs.
14:46	callen	Raynes: also I just checked the FPComplete Yesod tutorial
14:47	callen	the first line of the first example is the following: {-# LANGUAGE TypeFamilies, QuasiQuotes, MultiParamTypeClasses, TemplateHaskell, OverloadedStrings #-}
14:47	callen	^^ lol.
14:47	Raynes	lol
14:47	callen	second line? import Yesod
14:47	Raynes	callen: Also, the reason I was looking at this stuff is because I want to do a website with a friend, but he doesn't really want to do it in Clojure but we both want to do it in something reasonably interesting and Haskell seemed like a reasonable option at first since we're both kinda into it.
14:48	callen	Raynes: do it in Elixir.
14:48	Raynes	But, I feel like my apartment will slowly sink into a basement and all light will be seeped out of my life if I try to do this in Haskell.
14:48	callen	Raynes: Elixir+Dynamo
14:48	callen	practical, fun, interesting.
14:48	callen	(Dynamo in this case refers to the elixir cowboy wrapper, not the data store)
14:48	Raynes	I can't really do anything in Elixir because of… I guess OCD issues related to how terrible Erlang ports are and how nobody cares enough to fix them.
14:49	Raynes	Which to be fair includes me because I do not intend to dig into the Erlang C code.
14:49	ToxicFrog	Raynes: do it in Scala~
14:49	callen	Raynes: Chicago Boss is Elixir compatible and doesn't require digging around in too much Erlang.
14:49	Raynes	He already does Scala.
14:49	callen	Raynes: I really think you're not giving Elixir and Chicago Boss a fair shake here.
14:49	Adeon	I know someone who made his blog in sed
14:49	Raynes	callen: Because if I decide I need to shell out then I'm screwed and that bothers me.
14:50	Raynes	I can't really get over it.
14:50	Raynes	If Erlang ports stop sucking, I'll be a big Elixir guy again.
14:50	callen	Raynes: that bad? ow.
14:50	callen	I know ports suck, but damn.
14:50	callen	Raynes: Racket? Common Lisp?
14:51	Raynes	I can't talk to something on stdin, close it, and then read from stdout. When I mentioned this in #erlang, I got responded with "Well, I don't know of any languages that can do that." to which I o_o'd out and explained very politely how that was incorrect.
14:51	ToxicFrog	wait what
14:52	callen	Raynes: OCaml?
14:52	Raynes	Racket isn't a terrible idea.
14:52	Raynes	I mean, this particular project won't require any shelling out (at least, not that I can foresee) so Elixir would be a fine option.
14:53	Raynes	callen, ToxicFrog: https://www.refheap.com/13920 I wrote this ages ago and showed it to Erlangers and they were like RETWEET RETWEET OMG but shit, no way I'm messing with this C insanity to fix it.
14:53	Raynes	:p
14:53	callen	Raynes: Common Lisp + Clack + Caveman is cool.
14:55	callen	Racket doesn't have a very serious/good web stack though
14:55	callen	CL's is more mature
14:56	Raynes	callen: https://github.com/mattsta/erlang-stdinout-pool This is the result of the Erlang port issues.
14:56	callen	this is why I just write Clojure and thereby not suffer unnecessary problems.
14:56	callen	I'd still really like the ability to produce self-contained binaries that start and die quickly
14:57	Raynes	callen: I never actually figured out how to report this as an actual issue to Erlang though.
14:57	Raynes	They have like 12 different mailing lists for issues and 'proposals' and all this nonsense.
14:57	callen	Raynes: they're a political hive in emulation of their VM process model.
14:57	Raynes	callen: I asked in #erlang what the best way to report the bug would be, they said to not bother unless I'm going to fix it as well.
14:57	callen	LOL
14:58	Raynes	At which point I gave up entirely and just started complaining to everyone who would listen instead.
15:03	callen	Raynes: these sorts of problems are also why Python is still my default glue language, to my eternal chagrin.
15:03	Raynes	Heck, I might write the site in Python just for shits and giggles.
15:03	Raynes	At least you can actually do things with it. shrug.
15:04	callen	Raynes: if you write in Python then I could probably answer any questions off the top of my head limitlessly.
15:05	callen	Raynes: not to mention being able to recommend some pimp-ass libraries.
15:05	seangrove	monocle
15:05	seangrove	Very dapper o_
15:05	callen	seangrove: no.
15:06	seangrove	I've been thinking about monocle compared to core.async a bit recently
15:06	callen	async in Python is dumb.
15:07	callen	Twisted is the purest form of Pythonic evil I've ever seen.
15:07	seangrove	callen: Async in every language seems to be pretty unpleasant overall
15:07	seangrove	And yes, twisted is an amazing achievement
15:07	callen	"amazing"
15:07	seangrove	Probably should have put amazing in quotes, yes
15:07	callen	seangrove: not really.
15:08	callen	http-kit is quite pleasant.
15:08	callen	lacks thread affinity, otherwise quite nice.
15:08	seangrove	Hrm, I used the http-kit client in a small test project, really didn't care for it
15:08	seangrove	Consuming twitter's streaming api with it was unpleasant
15:09	callen	I've not had occasion to use the client, I've only used it server-side.
15:09	callen	and for that, it's very nice.
15:09	seangrove	But I haven't thought hard enough if that's fixable through a bit of client design, or if it's a language-level issue
15:09	seangrove	It looks very solid though
15:12	callen	async has been done well before
15:13	seangrove	Where? Really curious to see different approaches to make it easier to reason about
15:13	seangrove	Ahk, but I have ot catch the bus
15:13	seangrove	Will ask again in a bit
15:17	futile	anyone have experience with HTTP 30? codes?
15:18	callen	I gotta say, 30 is a new one for me.
15:19	callen	when did they start doing 2-digit HTTP status codes?
15:19	bbloom	sounds like somebody fat-fingered a 301 or 203
15:19	bbloom	er 302, i'm apparently number dyslexic
15:19	futile	and i thought 30* would not be so clear as 30?
15:19	bbloom	and/or have fat fingers
15:19	futile	ffs
15:20	upwardindex	Is this the idiomatic way to get an element deep inside maps: (reduce get {:a {:b {:c {:d 4}}}} [:a :b :c :d]) ?
15:20	bbloom	upwardindex: get-in
15:20	futile	upwardindex: get-in
15:20	upwardindex	Thank you both!
15:21	ystael	I'm clearly missing something fundamental about dynamic vars; can someone explain? https://www.refheap.com/16938
15:21	bbloom	ystael: they interact badly with laziness
15:21	bbloom	change map to mapv
15:21	bbloom	or (doall (map ...))
15:21	ystael	facepalm of course. thank you very much!
15:21	ystael	i had completely forgotten about that part
15:22	ztellman	I'm not sure "of course" is the right reaction to that
15:22	yedi_	callen: you google "user authentification in clojure" and friend comes up
15:22	yedi_	but you're right, i should roll my own
15:23	ystael	ztellman: in the sense of "i'm pretty sure i saw a post last month where somebody else ran into this, but i forgot" :)
15:24	ztellman	ystael: fair enough, but no one will ever convince me that's an intuitive interaction between clojure primitives
15:25	ystael	ztellman: the evidence proves there can be no argument from me :D
15:26	gfredericks	ztellman: is this a "clojure should be different" objection or a "it's hard to write a useful language that isn't complicated" lament?
15:27	ztellman	gfredericks: I suppose lazy-seqs could close over the thread-local context on creation, but that would cause a host of other problems
15:27	ztellman	so the latter, I guess
15:28	gfredericks	k just curious :)
15:28	muhoo_	here's a stupid exception-handling question: is there any less ugly way than this to print the INPUTS to a function if a postcondition fails? https://www.refheap.com/16939
15:28	gfredericks	I don't actually know of any problems with the former approach, unless perf is an issue
15:28	muhoo	i tried dire, it doesn't seem to have any way to showwhat args exactly broke the thing.
15:29	ztellman	gfredericks: it lets thread-local data escape the local context
15:29	ztellman	can cause resource leaks of all kinds
15:29	muhoo	also {:post [()]} just throws an exception, doesn't tell me what exactly was the incorrect args going in to the function
15:29	gfredericks	ztellman: oh I guess that could be weird
15:30	gfredericks	muhoo: for debugging I normally do an alter-var-root
15:30	gfredericks	muhoo: easy to make general helpers that use that approach
15:30	gfredericks	rather than changing a function itself
15:30	muhoo	gfredericks: any examples out there of that technique?
15:31	gfredericks	(alter-var-root #'foo (fn [f] (fn [& args] (or (apply f args) (throw (ex-info "" {:poop! args}))))))
15:32	muhoo	thanks. actually i'm pretty sure dire use alter-var-root under the hood.
15:33	muhoo	i'm hoping to put stuff in place for production to make the exceptions more helpful.
15:33	gfredericks	I've been noodling the idea of logging helpers that let you declaratively add interesting logging in an aspect-oriented style
15:33	muhoo	an exception that doesn't show what args caused the error is pretty useless to me. i'm dealing with massive amounts of unpredictable data inputs; anything can break things and i'm playing whack-a-mole
15:34	callen	muhoo: this is pretty standard enterprise style logging
15:34	PuercoPop	is there something like * from the cl repl in clojure?
15:34	callen	fn + args + exception, sometimes with full trace.
15:37	muhoo	gfredericks: well thanks, the above is a lot cleaner than the (if-let [res (stuff)] res (throw ...)) approach
15:37	`cbp	PuercoPop: 1, 2, *3
15:39	callen	gfredericks: I've been considering the same thing!
15:39	callen	defn-traced, defn-logged, etc
15:41	gfredericks	callen: oh mine would be alter-var-root style helpers to put after the functions
15:41	gfredericks	and combined with a logging lib that uses data rather than strings
15:41	muhoo	dire is pretty awesome. it seems an alter-var-root that prints the input args if the postcondition fails would be a good addition to it
15:42	muhoo	i've used the erlang-style "supervise" functions of dire with good results
15:42	PuercoPop	`cbp: thanks
15:42	callen	gfredericks: sounds solid.
15:44	PuercoPop	is there a way to do partial aplication in a way I bind the second and third params but not the first?
15:46	llasram	PuercoPop: Just use an anonymous function: #(some-function % arg1 arg2)
15:46	PuercoPop	thanks
15:48	ivan	&(((fn [f y z] #(f % y z)) - 5 6) 13)
15:48	lazybot	⇒ 2
16:00	tbaldridge	llasram: but...but...I want all my code to be point free!
16:00	ivan	and running on a point-free CPU
16:01	bbloom	tbaldridge: looking at the state monad inside core.async, i couldn't help but think "oh man, this would be awesome for some concatenative action"
16:02	tbaldridge	interesting...I've had a passing intrest in Forth in the past. How would this be done in a concatenative language?
16:02	bbloom	a "state monad" in a concatenative programming are just functions which take a state from the stack & then leave it modified back on the stack when done
16:03	bbloom	give it a try with https://github.com/brandonbloom/factjor :-)
16:03	bbloom	somethingg like (cat/run {:the "state"} (foo 1) (bar 2 3))
16:03	bbloom	where foo and bar have stack effects [state x -- state] and [state x y -- state]
16:05	bbloom	i discovered that variadic functions don't make for clean interop, sadly. i've been toying with the idea of a version of clojure core which defines all arity overload as syntax rules over fixed arity functions. but you'd also need multi-valued returns
16:06	bbloom	https://github.com/brandonbloom/domscript/blob/master/src/domscript/cat.clj
16:06	bbloom	tbaldridge: ^^ that's a good example of the "jquery monad" basically
16:08	bbloom	but in the case of your state monad, you have essentially stacks of bindings, which you can implement as dynamic variables
16:09	bbloom	factor calls them "namespaces": http://docs.factorcode.org/content/article-namespaces.html
16:09	bbloom	unfortunately, factor's primary data structures are all mutable, so you can't really do speculative execution, but that's not an inherent limitation
16:12	tbaldridge	bbloom: the one problem I see is that a language like this assumes that that your execution model is...well..stack based. Sometimes I need to create a block reference it in every other operation
16:13	bbloom	tbaldridge: you can mix and match
16:13	tbaldridge	bbloom: It seems like you'd end up with something like coding JVM bytecode by hand. Simple ops, almost impossible to understand for more complex code.
16:13	bbloom	Factor is sorta "extremist programming" to see how far they can push the idea
16:13	bbloom	but the answer is "surprisingly far"
16:14	bbloom	tbaldridge: factor supports lexical variables with full closure semantics: http://docs.factorcode.org/content/article-locals-examples.html
16:14	bbloom	so you can do whatever you need to do in the style that is most appropriate
16:15	bbloom	personally, i think the applicative style is a better default, but that doesn't mean the concatenative style isn't super useful
16:15	bbloom	basically every time you reach for ->, you're programming concatenatively in a very limited way
16:15	tbaldridge	agreed.
16:16	bbloom	tbaldridge: while i've got you here. SSA questions....
16:17	tbaldridge	yes
16:17	bbloom	i know that core.async's SSA is very limited to it's particular use case
16:17	bbloom	but would it make sense to do an SSA -> JVM or JS backend?
16:17	bbloom	or are the lambda-calculus-ish clojure primitives a better match for the underlying hosts?
16:19	tbaldridge	No, I'd prefer to target JVM bytecode. It was simpler the way I implemented it, but targeting bytecode would give you access to the JVM jump bytecodes which would (most likely) dramatically improve performance in some cases
16:20	bbloom	sorry, No to which question?
16:20	tbaldridge	as it stands, the blocks are put into a big switch statement, so doing state transitions means you have to bounce out of the switch and back in to the next block. With bytecodes you could just jump right to the target location.
16:20	tbaldridge	are sexprs better....no
16:20	tbaldridge	they're simpler that's all.
16:20	bbloom	ok, that's what i thought
16:21	bbloom	i'm wondering if it would make sense to define a dynamically typed SSA language that had good backends for JVM ByteCode & JavaScript
16:21	bbloom	ie so that more of the compiler front ends can be recycled
16:22	tbaldridge	I've been thinking about that as well. I'd like to see that happen at some point, but it's a fair amount of work.
16:24	bbloom	oh yeah, big project for sure
16:24	tbaldridge	I was hoping the GSOC CinC project would do something like this but they seem to be going down the route of writing yet another Clojure analyzer.
16:24	bbloom	:-/
16:26	bbloom	i tried to find if anybody was doing SSA->JS & i saw some mention of Dart, but i couldn't find that in the codebase
16:26	bbloom	since i figured SSA->JVM was a no brainer
16:26	bbloom	but i realized that you're doing SSA back to CLJ, which is probably close enough to SSA->CLJ
16:26	bbloom	er i mean close enough to SSA->JS
16:28	tbaldridge	a few days ago I implemented a CLJ->SSA->Cython "translator". It was a fun experiment, but the output was so different from "normal" python that it actually ran slower than interpreted bytecode
16:28	bbloom	heh cool
16:39	futile	hey so has anyone figured out how to get rid of clojure's s-exps?
16:40	justin_smith	why would you want to?
16:40	futile	i think the only thing left to solve is how to disambiguate between a value or a fn call with no args
16:40	bbloom	we have a solution to that… they are called parenthesis…
16:40	gfredericks	this comes up every few months
16:40	futile	i know, im reading old threads, thats how i found this topic
16:40	gfredericks	there was even an april fools language devoted to it
16:41	gfredericks	the name of which escapes me
16:41	justin_smith	oh, yeah, I almost chuckled out loud at that one
16:41	mthvedt	gfredericks: squarejure?
16:41	futile	i dont care for it myself, i like parens. im just wondering if theres any news on its progress
16:41	mthvedt	no, that's wrong
16:41	gfredericks	oh nevermind
16:41	gfredericks	that was about swapping square brackets and parens
16:41	mthvedt	clochure
16:42	gfredericks	futile: I don't think anybody expects progress
16:42	gfredericks	any "solution" you come up with is bound to be much more complicated and problematic than whatever "problems" are associated with the normal syntax
16:42	malyn	https://github.com/one-more-minute/clarity (although I don't actually want to use that :)
16:42	callen	Raynes: http://www.stephendiehl.com/posts/haskell_web.html
16:42	Raynes	I saw that.
16:42	callen	damn
16:42	Raynes	Made me want to punch a kitten.
16:43	callen	Raynes: "javascript code generation" KITTY_SCARED.JPG
16:43	Raynes	"LOOK. HERE'S A TRIVIAL USELESS EXAMPLE THAT IS SIMPLE. HASKELL IS EASY. WEB DEV IN HASKELL IS EASY SEE"
16:43	callen	Raynes: "disk-backed key-value store that only works in Haskell"
16:43	Derander	I was incredibly amused by that intro example
16:44	gfredericks	malyn: hah is that just a macro that uses :column metadata?
16:44	Derander	my first thought: "wtf is forM_"
16:44	Raynes	I know what forM_ is. Still think it's all silly.
16:45	arrdem	malyn: wat no
16:45	malyn	gfredericks: Not sure how it works. At first it sounded interesting, but any non-trivial example started making me uncomfortable.
16:45	malyn	("interesting" in a theoretical sense)
16:46	gfredericks	I wonder how it handle double-open-parens
16:47	Raynes	callen: I've been contemplating offering money for the first person to submit a pull request to fix the port issues I've had.
16:47	Raynes	It'd be a fun social experiment.
16:47	Raynes	submit and get accepted, of course.
16:48	callen	Raynes: gittip is neat, but I'd still really like to see a github-aware bounty system.
16:48	callen	or just a bounty system in general that actually works and lets people pitch in if they want it to happen too.
16:50	callen	Raynes: is there such a thing? An escrow/bounty system for OSS?
16:50	Raynes	I saw something recently.
16:51	Raynes	callen: http://coderbounty.com/ here is one thing.
16:52	callen	Raynes: looks so horrendously ghetto.
16:52	ToBeReplaced	just in case anyone is interested -- created two mini libraries i've had to use in lots of places: https://github.com/ToBeReplaced/jdbc-pool https://github.com/ToBeReplaced/mapply
16:53	callen	ToBeReplaced: ...you are aware of bonecp right?
16:53	futile	ToBeReplaced: ive heard bone cp is better
16:53	Raynes	callen: What's amusing is that it wants you to link to a github issue but oh look you can't open issues on otp, only pull requests.
16:53	callen	Raynes: I was thinking of something more generic.
16:54	Raynes	callen: Because apparently you aren't supposed to send issues without patches or some shit.
16:54	futile	~mapply
16:54	clojurebot	You could (defn mapply [f & args] (apply f (apply concat (butlast args) (last args))))
16:54	ToBeReplaced	i've heard yeah -- just not currently used in my work environment
16:55	ToBeReplaced	maybe should have named it jdbc-c3p0-pool ... probably would have been better... should have asked first
16:55	callen	ToBeReplaced: well there are existing c3p0 libs for clojure too :P
16:55	futile	oh, mapply is neat
16:56	futile	although i think a better solution is just write fns that take an optional map at the end
16:56	ToBeReplaced	the pooling we use internally is all down-and-dirty, so i'm not one to understand diff between either lib
16:56	ToBeReplaced	callen: links? quick google didn't show
16:57	ToBeReplaced	i also didn't want to do anything other than provide a thin wrapper for easy setup into a org.clojure/java.jdbc specification
16:58	Derander	~mapply
16:58	clojurebot	You could (defn mapply [f & args] (apply f (apply concat (butlast args) (last args))))
16:58	ToBeReplaced	futile: i think it depends -- use cases for both for sure
16:58	futile	ToBeReplaced: i like that answer a lot
16:58	futile	its not the fanboyish all-or-nothing approach of some idiots.
16:58	futile	:)
17:04	callen	not duplicating effort is valuable and reduces clojars noise.
17:10	ToBeReplaced	callen: what is that in reference to?
17:12	callen	I don't think it needs a prompt.
17:13	bbloom	callen: do you have a twitter account?
17:14	callen	bbloom: I feel like this is a setup for something.
17:14	callen	bbloom: I do.
17:14	bbloom	callen: not a few hours ago you were giving futile shit for saying something without context. now you're doing it.
17:14	justin_smith	I swear #clojure is turning into an epistolary novel with all the subtle intregues and indirect insults
17:15	callen	bbloom: it was in reference to the conversation about the connection pooling libraries.
17:15	callen	bbloom: I said it didn't need a prompt, I didn't say it didn't have one.
17:15	callen	bbloom: there are more valid reasons to harangue me than this. Find them and then raise cane with me.
17:15	rattboi	raise cain
17:16	futile	hey guys
17:16	futile	remember how we all love Clojure?
17:16	futile	lets agree that Clojure is pretty great, yeah?
17:16	rattboi	Clojure is awesome
17:16	futile	(inc rattboi)
17:16	lazybot	⇒ 1
17:16	callen	rattboi: so it is, thank you.
17:16	callen	(inc rattboi)
17:16	lazybot	⇒ 2
17:16	futile	is it pronounced Closure or Clo-jure?
17:17	callen	futile: Clozhure
17:17	callen	but quickly, you don't rest on the zh
17:17	callen	in french it'd be a dj
17:17	futile	do you emphasise the U or the O?
17:17	callen	errrr, j
17:17	callen	derp.
17:18	callen	futile: it's pretty close to the pronunciation of closure, if not identical for the most part. It's just that it's specifically zh sound whereas I've heard some brits pronounce closure differently.
17:18	rattboi	I emphasize the O
17:18	futile	also, why does the Clojure wikipedia article have an example that does defn inside a let? that seems wrong
17:18	futile	rattboi: ive just been saying Closure.
17:19	Okasu	futile: Wikipedia seems mostly wrong, do not rely on it too much.
17:19	futile	Okasu: but surely we can fix the Clojure page up?
17:19	callen	futile: last time we tried to use Wikipedia, they deleted Hickey's page.
17:19	callen	I think we're scurred now.
17:20	futile	uhh
17:20	justin_smith	def[u]n inside let is a standard common lisp idiom for mutable private data, it happens to work in clojure, but not be standard clojure style
17:20	futile	heh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Hickey
17:20	futile	justin_smith: we should change it to look more idiomatic.
17:20	futile	the examples there.
17:20	futile	not that im qualified to do it..
17:22	futile	ok, we were on the topic of pronouncing Clojure, and 2 Seans just joined. is it too off topic to ask why Sean is pronounced Shawn?
17:22	callen	futile: irish name.
17:23	futile	oh
17:23	callen	originally from "John"
17:23	callen	the sound went from "John" to "zhawn" to "shawn"
17:23	Okasu	Yawn.
17:24	Okasu	Extreme form John.
17:24	Okasu	of*
17:24	futile	ok thx guys
17:26	Okasu	callen: Wow, you mean like when time passes clojure well go forl "Clojure" to "Clozha" to "Closhaw"?
17:26	Okasu	s/well go forl/will go from/
17:28	gtrak	justin_smith: not only is it not idiomatic, it'll break with threads
17:28	justin_smith	yet it claims to be threadsafe
17:29	callen	Okasu: lol
17:29	gtrak	where?
17:29	clojurebot	where is forget where
17:30	Okasu	gtrak:
17:30	Okasu	>A thread-safe generator
17:30	Okasu	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clojure
17:30	gtrak	doh.. that is fine
17:30	gtrak	sorry, I was thinking scheme's nested 'define'
17:31	justin_smith	gtrak: wait, I see an atom there, won't that be thread safe - or was that a recent edit?
17:31	justin_smith	heh, our conversation threads lost sync for a second there
17:32	gtrak	yea, I use defs within lets occasionally just to screw with my team
17:32	justin_smith	hey, sometimes you gotta keep secrets!
17:33	gtrak	sometimes you gotta understand when/how top-level things actually get evaluated ;-)
17:34	justin_smith	(let [fn-I-will-only-need-here (fn [..] ....)] (def do-foo (fn-I-will-only-need-here ...)) (def do-bar (fn-I-will-only-need-here ...)))
17:34	justin_smith	gtrak: so what is the pitfall with something like that?
17:35	justin_smith	I suspect it is probaly just some vestigal cl-based instinct being followed - but is it something that actually breaks things?
17:35	gtrak	oh, there isn't one.. just saying it's possible to get in trouble. it's just helpful to know it's closing over some variables during the static initializer of the namespace
17:35	justin_smith	oh, yeah, sure
17:35	gtrak	and also during compile-time
17:35	justin_smith	yeah, so you don't want any state modifications in the let bindings
17:36	gtrak	generally, you should move your state to the top of your app
17:36	gtrak	so it's not bound to a namespace lifecycle, vars have the same problem.
17:36	gtrak	in that case of the symbol generator it doesn't matter
17:36	futile	gtrak: thanks for sharing about Datomic
17:37	gtrak	do you like it?
17:37	futile	After reading about 5 documents and blog posts and stuff on it, I finally get it.
17:37	justin_smith	we did a big transformation not long ago - took all the state-atom-maps we had at the tops of our libs and moved them into config that is explicitly generated (so things could become re-entrant)
17:37	futile	I don't think it's that complicated, I think those documents just need to emphasize that attributes are free-floating and any entity can have any attribute.
17:38	justin_smith	then rather than setting an atom in the lib, you pass config into lib functions
17:38	futile	gtrak: I like it so far, but it feels a little daunting to setup at first. There's no built-in convenience functions for creating schemas, which makes them seem huge.
17:39	futile	srsly, 6 lines per single attribute!
17:39	Raynes	callen: I'm working with Jose to see what we can do about that ports issue finally. I sent an email to the erlang-questions mailing list to see what reception it gets, and he is gonna try to bring it up to Joe Armstrong and see what he thinks/potentially get it added to the internal otp issue tracker and such. So hopefully we can get some progress made on that and my mental anguish can subside.
17:40	callen	Raynes: I'm surprised it flew under Joe's radar.
17:40	gtrak	justin_smith: yea, that makes testing much easier (tractable at all)
17:40	callen	Raynes: in the meantime, use Elixir!
17:40	callen	Raynes: with Dynamo or Chicago Boss :D
17:40	futile	whoa, elixir looks crazy
17:41	Raynes	futile: It's crazy awesome. I wrote the URI library and original mix when it was still really early. Then I saw how bad Erlang ports were and got sad and ran away. Stayed friends with Jose though. He consults with me a lot about Clojure design choices because he likes Clojure and wants to do as much of what Clojure did right as he can, which is why I love Elixir so much.
17:42	futile	Raynes: oh neat
17:43	callen	Raynes: Jose is a very nice person.
17:43	callen	he's probably the only nice Rails core dev.
17:43	Raynes	He holds a special place in my heart.
17:43	futile	oh man, is he into Rails 'magic' philosophy?
17:44	callen	I don't think so. He's definitely into having nice tools though.
17:44	Raynes	Well, he made Elixir.
17:44	Raynes	So I don't think so.
17:44	noncom\|2	hi, i have a (defn) in another namespace and i have an alias to that namespace (made by :as), how do i get that what is defined with (defn)?
17:45	noncom\|2	smth like (ns-resolve 'that-another-ns-alias (symbol (name defn-name))) does not work...
17:45	noncom\|2	says cant find that-another-ns-alias
17:45	justin_smith	noncom\|2: (ns foo) (defn bar [] ...) (ns user) (require '[foo :as f]) (f/bar)
17:46	gtrak	noncom\|2: (def the-new-var old-var-ns/old-var)
17:47	noncom\|2	i have the defn-name unknown at compile-time, so i think that i have to formulate somehting like that require
17:47	gtrak	ah, I thought you wanted to make an alias to the function
17:47	noncom\|2	like (require '[foo :as (symbol (name user-defined-name))])
17:48	noncom\|2	gtrak: yeah, but that is dynamic, so i'm knoking my head at the wall now :)
17:48	gtrak	what is dynamic, the old one?
17:48	noncom\|2	oh nono, i mean it is known only at compile-time
17:48	gtrak	not sure what you mean
17:48	gtrak	what isn't known at run-time in clojure?
17:49	noncom\|2	a user passes a keyword or a string, and i have to resolve that as a binding in another namespace (which is also specifield at runtime)
17:49	noncom\|2	but they are specified in different places
17:49	noncom\|2	namespace first
17:49	gtrak	ah, you want ns-resolve with aliases?
17:50	noncom\|2	yeah, i tried, but did not work. i guess maybe the require thing will work?
17:51	gtrak	check it out: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/c6756a8bab137128c8119add29a25b0a88509900/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L3943
17:51	noncom\|2	i mean, ns-resolve does not accept smth like (ns-resolve (symbol (name use-defined-ns-name)))
17:51	gtrak	you can build up the env parameter from your current namespace, I believe
17:51	noncom\|2	i am fully unaware of what is env in clojure
17:52	noncom\|2	i mean envirinemnet
17:52	noncom\|2	oh my spelling/...
17:52	gtrak	user> (take 20 (ns-map ns)).....([sorted-map #'clojure.core/sorted-map] [read.......
17:52	gtrak	you should be able to figure it out from there
17:52	noncom\|2	ah that is
17:52	noncom\|2	yeah, i will have to go to study things
17:53	noncom\|2	this is basic, but i did not use it before
17:53	gtrak	the functions are here: http://clojure.org/namespaces
17:53	gtrak	it's nice that it's all data, like a lot of clojure
17:54	noncom\|2	not a word on envs though.. will have to dig up additional sources.
17:54	gtrak	ns-aliases?
17:54	gtrak	it's probably fastest just to read the impl
17:54	noncom\|2	yeah, about data - one day i found out that clojure namespaces are not maps!
17:54	noncom\|2	yeah, i think i will do it
17:55	gtrak	it's not something people do a lot..
17:56	noncom\|2	btw, knowing that clojure nss are not maps, terrifies me in some way...
17:56	noncom\|2	:)
17:56	gtrak	objects are data too? ;-)
17:56	gtrak	or can be viewed as such
17:57	noncom\|2	hmmm.. all is data and all is code.. but not all is valid ahaha :)
17:57	noncom\|2	yeah, that's like hebrew. all their data is code and vice-versa
17:58	gtrak	all this fuss to flip some bits on the screen
17:58	noncom\|2	true and i won't even remember that in 1000 years after...
17:59	noncom\|2	or no, i'll be sitting and rememberin, contemplating on it, specially..
17:59	noncom\|2	:))
18:02	justin_smith	noncom\|2: user> (require '[clojure.string :as s]) ;;; nil ;;; user> (resolve 's/join) ;;; #'clojure.string/join
18:02	justin_smith
18:02	justin_smith	something like that should work for what you want, yes?
18:03	justin_smith	using (comp resolve symbol) on whatever the user provides (if they are providing a string)
18:03	squidz	dnolen: is it possible to create source maps yet for clojurescript
18:03	justin_smith	,((comp resolve symbol) "clojure.string/join")
18:03	clojurebot	#'clojure.string/join
18:04	noncom\|2	so i will try now!
18:04	gtrak	clojures docs says 'same as (ns-resolve ns symbol)'
18:05	justin_smith	oh, ok
18:05	justin_smith	but does ns-resolve work with ns aliases in that way?
18:05	gtrak	ns isn't going to give you what you want at runtime
18:05	noncom\|2	hmmmm
18:05	gtrak	yea, seems like ns-resolve will do it
18:06	gtrak	but you should pass in a hardcoded ns symbol I guess
18:06	noncom\|2	but hey! looks like it went just fine!
18:06	gtrak	call it from another namespace?
18:06	gtrak	see how that goes
18:06	noncom\|2	i have this now:
18:07	noncom\|2	(let
18:07	noncom\|2	[mk-grabber ((comp resolve symbol) (str "jcv/" (name grabber-type)))
18:07	noncom\|2	...
18:07	gtrak	if ns is a var.. then it's not going to work, I'm not sure if it is or not
18:07	noncom\|2	and yes, it goes into that ns, takes that grabber-maker-fn, and later, in the (let), it passes arguments to that maker and the grabber creation is being attempted
18:08	noncom\|2	,(type ns)
18:08	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Namespace
18:08	noncom\|2	oh
18:08	noncom\|2	well, (resolve) is same as (ns-resolve ns)....
18:08	gtrak	,(class #'ns)
18:08	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Var
18:08	noncom\|2	oO
18:08	gtrak	it's for repl stuff
18:09	justin_smith	will ns-resolve work with aliased namespaces?
18:09	noncom\|2	let me try
18:09	gtrak	meaning, it's not getting reset all the time when your code runs, only at the repl and read/eval time.
18:10	noncom\|2	what you mean not getitng reset?
18:10	justin_smith	I have done (require '[clojure.string :as s]) - (resolve (symbol "s/join")) works, (ns-resolve 's 'join) does not
18:11	justin_smith	or am I using ns-resolve wrong?
18:11	noncom\|2	ahaha
18:11	noncom\|2	here:mk-grabber (ns-resolve (resolve 'jcv) (name grabber-type))
18:11	noncom\|2	NullPointerException java.util.concurrent.ConcurrentHashMap.hash (:-1)
18:12	noncom\|2	(resolve 'a)
18:12	noncom\|2	,(resolve 'a)
18:12	clojurebot	nil
18:12	squidz	stuartsierra: or do you maybe know?
18:12	stuartsierra	eh, what?
18:12	noncom\|2	hmmm, creating a meaningful example for clojurebot takes thinking...
18:13	noncom\|2	it's just that jcv is surely already aliased before it gets to that line
18:13	noncom\|2	in my code.
18:13	noncom\|2	,(ns-aliases)
18:13	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core$ns-aliases>
18:13	noncom\|2	,(ns-aliases ns)
18:14	clojurebot	{}
18:14	noncom\|2	oO
18:14	squidz	stuartsierra: what the status is about sourcemaps with clojurescript
18:14	stuartsierra	squidz: no idea
18:14	gtrak	hope this illustrates the point: $ java -jar clojure-1.5.1.jar -e "(ns user2) (defn n [] ns) (ns user) (user2/n)" ... #'user2/n ... #<Namespace user>
18:15	noncom\|2	squidz: a little off-topic: in my experience clojurescript debugs like heaven with standard browser console
18:15	gtrak	ns isn't where the function lives.
18:16	bbloom	squidz: seangrove is the guy most recently tooling around w/ source maps
18:16	noncom\|2	gtrak: right, it's where it was called from, this is fine i guess?
18:16	gtrak	I thought you cared about aliases defined in your namespace?
18:17	gtrak	not the namespace that the user is in
18:17	squidz	bbloom: oh okay, does he get on the channel?
18:17	noncom\|2	ah, i see
18:17	noncom\|2	i seee waht you meen
18:17	gtrak	cool :-)
18:17	bbloom	squidz: yeah, he's here relatively frequently
18:17	gtrak	was hard to explain :-)
18:17	noncom\|2	sorry :))
18:18	noncom\|2	i'll make a test now
18:18	seangrove	squidz: What do you need to know?
18:19	squidz	seangrove: if it is possible to create sourcemaps for clojurescript
18:19	noncom\|2	gtrak: yes, surely you're right, it fails when i'm not there
18:19	noncom\|2	oh man
18:20	gtrak	so.. back to 15 minutes ago :-), you'll have to hardcode the ns if that's what you want
18:21	noncom\|2	but is there a way to not hardcode it?
18:21	gtrak	unless there's a more convenient way... not sure
18:21	gtrak	ah, I have a terrible idea, let me try it
18:21	squidz	I saw this site that explains how to generate sourcemaps but not sure how to do it with clojurescript or if it's possible http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/developertools/sourcemaps/
18:21	noncom\|2	:))
18:22	bbloom	squidz: clojurescript source maps are a work in progress, they are not available for general use yet
18:22	gtrak	simple :-)
18:23	gtrak	,(namespace `ljldfljdfjldfljdsfljsdfljsdf)
18:23	clojurebot	"sandbox"
18:23	seangrove	bbloom: I think they're in there already
18:23	bbloom	seangrove: ok, you know better than me :-) you help squidz
18:23	seangrove	They only have line info, and it's off by one, but you just have to add a :source-map key to your cljs-build compiler options
18:23	seangrove	Let me try it...
18:24	squidz	seangrove: wow cool I really want to try it out
18:24	noncom\|2	gtrak: yeah, and when you said you have an idea, i recalled ns-find also!
18:25	noncom\|2	and it like wox with strs.. ? (namespace) is close to (ns-find) afaik..
18:25	gtrak	right, backtick means the symbol doesn't have to actually exist... though, so that's not hardcoding anything :-)
18:26	noncom\|2	well, that's super-great!
18:26	noncom\|2	so now i can have fun with even more bad style dynamically resolving code :D
18:26	gtrak	heh, yes. I'd be curious if there's a better way.
18:27	gtrak	ah!
18:27	gtrak	it all comes back around, close over the value of ns at compile-time
18:27	gtrak	in a let
18:27	noncom\|2	)))
18:27	noncom\|2	i'll try
18:27	noncom\|2	now
18:28	seangrove	Ah, I get an NPE with it. Lame.
18:28	gtrak	noncom\|2: yep, works :-). $ java -jar clojure-1.5.1.jar -e "(ns user2) (let [the-ns ns] (defn n [] the-ns)) (ns user) (user2/n)"...#'user2/n...#<Namespace user2>
18:29	noncom\|2	heh))
18:29	squidz	seangrove: hmmm I would really like to test it out even though it's one line off
18:29	noncom\|2	good hacking this is
18:31	seangrove	squidz: I haven't used it from cljsbuild, checking it now
18:32	noncom\|2	but that feels a little crazy
18:32	squidz	seangrove: wow i'm crossing my fingers, that would be so cool
18:33	gtrak	noncom\|2: pretty sure it'll work
18:33	seangrove	I'm getting an NPE, let me see if I can track it down
18:33	noncom\|2	yeah, it does! :) fun stuff. thank you!
18:34	squidz	I had no idea it was so close until I saw something about it yesterday
18:34	seangrove	squidz: What did you see yesterday?
18:35	squidz	I saw an article where somebody mentioned having the :source-map option in the cljsbuild options
18:35	justin_smith	gtrak: what was that we were saying about defn inside let?
18:35	justin_smith	lol
18:35	gtrak	justin_smith: right :-)
18:35	seangrove	Yeah, looks like it works, but you can't use optimizations :whitespace, it has to be at least :simple
18:35	gtrak	like i said, it's helpful to know how eval works..
18:36	gtrak	especially if you like being nasty
18:36	seangrove	And after the js is generate, you have to edit the soureMappingURL comment at the bottom so it points to the right location for your map
18:36	seangrove	And after that, you have to copy all your source code somewhere the browser can find it
18:37	seangrove	Ah, and edit the *.js.map.merged file to point to the relative location of the copied source
18:37	squidz	seangrove: can you put an example in a gist. I really want to try it out
18:37	seangrove	I hope I'm wrong about all of that, but I haven't found a way to make it work without those crazy manual-edits and copying the entire source code to a browser-accessible url
18:37	squidz	seangrove: it't really exciting
18:37	seangrove	Sure, One second
18:38	squidz	seangrove: thanks a ton. It's really nice of you
18:39	seangrove	squidz: No proble, just be ready to write me a clojure backend for reliably downloading imap emails
18:39	seangrove	Which is what I'm escaping from by making this gist...
18:41	justin_smith	sounds like a fair trade
18:42	seangrove	Gotta leverage all this source map work I've been doing somehow
18:42	squidz	seangrove: hehe, well I have no idea about imap emails. But if I could, I would
18:42	seangrove	It's not very pleasant, I wouldn't recommend it
18:42	squidz	is it for business?
18:43	seangrove	The imap stuff is, not source maps
18:43	squidz	because I can't imagine it's for pleasure
18:43	seangrove	It turns out to be pretty cool to query your inbox for all sorts of things from clojure
18:43	seangrove	But That's only after you have a local copy of it, etc.
18:44	squidz	for some kind of app? Do you have ideas of what you would do with the emails?
18:48	seangrove	Yup, works, one line off
18:48	seangrove	One second, will post the gist
18:49	squidz	seangrove: awesome work I really owe you one
18:59	seangrove	squidz: Try this https://gist.github.com/sgrove/6092756
19:00	seangrove	Let me know if it works for you
19:00	squidz	okay i'll try it out now. Thanks so much. I'll tell you if I get it going
19:01	seangrove	Hopefully this can all be folded into cljsbuild at some point
19:02	seangrove	And very hopefully I'm wrong about source-maps not being able to access file urls, so we don't have to copy all the source code to browser-accessible urls
19:02	seangrove	But there's remarkably little written about this stuff for source maps that I've been able to find so far
19:03	squidz	yeah i'm sure other poeple would like to see your write up
19:04	squidz	i'm getting this whin i try to run lein cljsbuild -> java.lang.Exception: Unknown build identifier: prod
19:04	squidz	is prod for production\|/
19:04	squidz	?
19:05	seangrove	yeah
19:05	seangrove	Should be dev
19:05	seangrove	Updated
19:06	squidz	it says Unknown build identifier: dev
19:06	callen	Raynes: if not Elixir, there's always Go too >:)
19:06	Raynes	if I wanted to kill myself there are easier ways to do it, callen.
19:06	seangrove	squidz: Do you have a dev build id?
19:07	squidz	no
19:07	seangrove	Can you paste your project.clj somewhere?
19:08	squidz	seangrove: https://www.refheap.com/16946
19:08	Raynes	Oh dear.
19:08	Raynes	That's impressive.
19:09	seangrove	squidz: Looks like you haven't updated it like the example in my gist
19:10	seangrove	You'll need to give your builds ids, and also to pass :source-map to the compiler section
19:10	squidz	h now I see the build id
19:10	seangrove	squidz: https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild#multiple-build-configurations look at "optionally assign an id"
19:11	squidz	okay it compiled on to the next step
19:14	egghead	is there a 'best choice' for websockets in clj currently (preferably easily working w/ ring/compojure)
19:17	egghead	err, I guess I'll just want two web servers and a main method instead of lein ring, right?
19:18	squidz	seangrove: what about source entries that refer to "file:/home/albert/.m2/repository/org/clojure/google-closure-library/0.0-2029-2/google-closure-library-0.0-2029-2.jar!/goog/base.js"
19:19	seangrove	squidz: Ignore them
19:19	seangrove	They're inside jar files anyway, browser won't be able to open them up
19:21	tomjack	hmmmmm https://www.refheap.com/0fdbc1b0180c4af8d46db6b10
19:26	Raynes	O.O
19:27	squidz	seangrove: so if it works I should be able to see the clojurescript files in chromes debugger(I enabled source-maps in the settings)
19:28	callen	tomjack: hahahahahah what the fuck did you do?
19:28	seangrove	squidz: Yeah, more or less
19:28	seangrove	You should see them listed under sources
19:30	seangrove	squidz: Example: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/412963/Screenshots/ce.png
19:31	Raynes	AJ!
19:31	Raynes	AH!
19:31	Raynes	What is this it's scary.
19:33	callen	seangrove: source maps are live?!
19:33	seangrove	callen: They've been live for awhile, it's just not a full implementation
19:33	seangrove	But it'll get you down to the line number at least
19:33	callen	seangrove: :D :D :D
19:34	callen	seangrove: version?
19:34	seangrove	0.0-1844
19:34	seangrove	But as you can see from the gist above, it's not a smooth process
19:34	seangrove	A lost of it needs to be rolled into cljsbuild probably
19:35	squidz	shit i really want to get it but its not showing up
19:35	seangrove	squidz: What's the source-map comment at the end of the compiled js file, and from what url are you serving it?
19:36	squidz	oh i skipped the js comment
19:38	squidz	holy shit it works
19:38	squidz	thanks seangrove
19:43	seangrove	Ah, glad to hear it
19:43	seangrove	Spread the word squidz ;)
19:43	squidz	yeah I really should
19:44	squidz	my clojurescript file is found but it appears to be empty
19:44	seangrove	Try right-clicking and opening in a new tab
19:44	seangrove	What url is it at?
19:45	squidz	okay yeah its the wrong url
19:47	squidz	oh my god I can't believe this is working
19:47	squidz	with break points and everything
19:47	squidz	i'm as giddy as a school girl
19:48	squidz	I will spread the word
21:11	tomjack	callen: no clue..
21:11	tomjack	not my POM..
21:19	akurilin	Need an opinion. Say I'm passing some data from my clojure web app to an ObjectiveC client. The former is pretty happy with working with maps stitched together from different db tables. The latter generally prefers a class for every object type. I could technically use something like NSDictionary to try to mimic a clojure map, but I don't know if I should avoid trying to copy that idiom.
21:20	akurilin	On the other hand making a boilerplate class for each chunk of JSON I pass back from the web app is a bit of a pita.
21:25	callen	akurilin: NSDictionary is fine.
21:25	callen	that's a standard choice for any kind of JSON data.
21:36	akurilin	callen, as in, most people don't bother wrapping it in container classes with cozy typed properties/
21:36	akurilin	*?
21:36	clojurebot	* is just for when you are lazy and sloppy
22:13	isaacbw	you guys
22:13	isaacbw	I love you so much
22:17	isaacbw	is there a function in core like C's strstr?
22:17	isaacbw	i.e get the position of a substring
22:31	isaacbw	does clojure have a core function for finding substrings?
22:32	bbloom	use regex
22:32	bbloom	(find-doc "re-")
22:32	r0bgleeson	my hair is awesome
22:32	isaacbw	I guess I can just use java.lang.String's indexOf as well
22:33	bbloom	or that
22:56	callen	akurilin: not necessarily.
23:26	isaacbw	would anyone mind sanity checking my line buffering function? It works, but I have no idea if it's very idiomatic http://pastie.org/8179805
23:26	futile	isaacbw: for idiomaticity i would use refheap.com
23:27	futile	isaacbw: it looks like you're just recursing, which means you can ditch letfn and use recur
23:27	futile	,(doc recur)
23:27	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
23:27	futile	aw
23:27	futile	isaacbw: also its usually more idiomatic in Clojure to rely on (possibly lazy) sequences rather than recursion
23:28	futile	and functions which act on sequences, like filter, reduce, etc.
23:28	futile	isaacbw: can you show me some sample usage for this function?
23:29	isaacbw	futile: here's a simple (not very useful) example https://www.refheap.com/16951
23:30	isaacbw	this is for processing line-based network streams
23:31	futile	i guess i just dont understand it well enough
23:31	r0bgleeson	i am a line-based network stream
23:31	futile	i mean, that code prints "hi" but returns "there!".
23:31	isaacbw	more importantly, it prints "hi" and puts "there!" into the buffer
23:31	futile	isaacbw: so, itll do whatever function you give it to each line, and return the last one?
23:32	futile	hmm
23:32	isaacbw	so when more input comes in, line-buffering can continue where it left off
23:32	futile	isaacbw: i think i see.
23:32	isaacbw	though I guess I can get rid of the atom swapping in line-buffer and do that outside
23:33	futile	isaacbw: why not use clojure.string/split ?
23:33	futile	isaacbw: or even better: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.string/split-lines
23:33	isaacbw	because I can't differentiate the result between (split "ab\nc") and (split "ab\nc\n")
23:33	futile	isaacbw: oh i think i see why you wouldnt want that, because you might not have a completed line at the end.
23:34	isaacbw	both return ["ab" "c"]
23:34	futile	heh i think i did this a few years ago when parsing irc messages.
23:34	isaacbw	yea
23:34	futile	ok let me think for a bit on this
23:44	futile	isaacbw: https://www.refheap.com/16952
23:44	futile	im not perfectly content with it
23:45	futile	feels a bit wordy somehow. but this is the general approach i'd take
23:45	futile	yeah, wait, this is stupid.
23:45	futile	i got too juxt-happy
23:47	futile	ok second try: https://www.refheap.com/16953
23:49	futile	i still dont like it. dont know why though.
23:49	isaacbw	ah, that's much more readable than what I had!
23:49	isaacbw	thank you!
23:50	isaacbw	this all requires a pretty different way of thinking
23:50	futile	yeah, ive been doing clojure full-time for 9 months and its still not natural for me yet
23:51	futile	i think the only way i get by is because i keep forcing myself to think in terms of sequences
23:52	futile	,(conj [1 2 3] [4])
23:52	clojurebot	[1 2 3 [4]]
23:52	futile	,(concat [1 2 3] [4])
23:52	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4)
23:52	futile	ok yeah thats what i should use. i dont trust conj ever.
23:53	futile	isaacbw: this always returns a string that you can append more data to and process in the same way.
23:54	futile	isaacbw: and by append i really mean pass (str old-buffer new-data) to the function
23:55	futile	,(concat [1 2 3] [])
23:55	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
23:55	futile	oh hey that makes it simpler i think
23:56	futile	,(concat [1 2 3] nil)
23:56	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
23:56	futile	woo!
23:56	futile	https://www.refheap.com/16954
23:56	futile	its even simpler isaacbw
23:58	futile	guys, is there a way to do destructuring that works like butlast/last ?
23:58	futile	oh duh, reverse the seq.
23:59	futile	hmm, i cant tell if this made it better or worse: https://www.refheap.com/16955