#clojure – 2013-07-25

2013-07-25

00:30	aaelony	what's the best way to read a small edn format file entirely into memory?
00:33	brehaut	aaelony: (clojure.edn/read-string (slurp file-or-filename)) ?
00:34	aaelony	brehaut: thank-you, but that only yields the first line
00:34	brehaut	aaelony: the first line or first form?
00:34	aaelony	e.g. (count (clojure.edn/read-string (slurp data-file)) ) ;; gives 2
00:35	alandipert	(clojure.edn/read-string (str "(" (slurp f) ")")) is a quick fix
00:35	aaelony	brehaut: It's likely my fault, there is a edn structure on each line and I need all the lines
00:35	tomjack	you'd have to call read repeatedly
00:36	aaelony	alandipert: thank-you! that works :)
00:37	tomjack	https://www.refheap.com/7fac4581dac79e910dbbba793
00:37	tomjack	the less quick fix..
00:38	tomjack	https://www.refheap.com/67eedfdc3b75112b6cacc9a26 grrr
00:38	aaelony	tomjack: that's cool thanks. I googled a bunch of explanations, (such as http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15234880/how-to-use-clojure-edn-read-to-get-a-sequence-of-objects-in-a-file) but none of them fit exactly. thanks for everyones help
00:38	hiredman	I wish clojure would just throw an exception when it encounters def not at the top level
00:39	tomjack	eh
00:39	tomjack	so one macro -> one def?
00:39	aaelony	errors
00:40	tomjack	or is the body of a top-level do also top-level?
00:40	tomjack	hmm (partial not= foo), that's cool
00:40	tomjack	I can't decide whether I like that or (complement #{foo}) better
00:41	hiredman	which ever, I am just tired of seen people try to use def like schemes define
00:41	alandipert	hiredman: but what about my defcoolthing macros :-(
00:42	brehaut	no cool things allowed. this is clojure. we only do serious computing
00:42	tomjack	inside let basically? or what?
00:42	aaelony	I'm still waiting for some macro named defleopard...
00:42	hiredman	(defn make-memo [fn] (def table ...) (fn [& args] do stuff with table))
00:42	alandipert	hiredman: in seriousness, i think i agree. i was investigating static compilation and a def in a closure makes compiling defns to java methods super trixty
00:42	brehaut	aaelony: thats only allowed in common lisp (and other languages from the 80s)
00:42	aaelony	haha
00:43	tomjack	ah right
00:45	hiredman	alandipert: I have a lisp -> go source compiler that ends up having to hoist lots of stuff like that in to the top level
00:45	alandipert	hiredman: do your generated methods take an env arg?
00:46	hiredman	yes
00:46	hiredman	I end up generate the go equiv of what clojure does with IFn's
00:46	alandipert	cost of doing business w/ inner defs i suppose
00:46	hiredman	class and method(s) per function object
00:50	hiredman	we need an urclojure like, uh, whatever that is that shenanigans has
00:50	hiredman	er
00:50	hiredman	"shen"
00:50	hiredman	klambda
00:50	hiredman	but with more protocols and reify
00:51	futile	hey guys, remember when OOP was brilliant?
00:53	alandipert	hiredman: yes, into it. also the AIM 514 'lisp-based processor' thing
00:54	hiredman	look, the thing I said could actually happen :)
00:56	alandipert	hiredman: oh, you have explored the AIM 514 stuff? i'm tempted to learn VHDL on account of it
00:56	hiredman	I haven't, but it seems unlikely that lisp machines will make a come back
00:58	alandipert	they will, on my machine
01:17	aaelony	another silly question. I have a nice doseq that outputs lines to a file, but I want to label the line number of the line the data came from. I've tried (let [i 0] (doseq [row data] (let [i (inc i)] … but that doesn't seem to do it.
01:19	alandipert	aaelony: maybe (doseq [row data, i (range)] ...)
01:19	tomjack	that would be interesting
01:19	tomjack	(doseq [[i row] (map vector (range) data)] ...) ?
01:20	aaelony	alandipert: I think that works!
01:20	aaelony	alandipert: thanks :)
01:20	tomjack	&(for [row [1 2 3] i (range)] [row i])
01:20	lazybot	Execution Timed Out!
01:20	aaelony	cool
01:21	alandipert	or rather, (doseq [[i row] (map-indexed vector data)] ...)
01:21	tomjack	I think it's weird you can't use doseq-like bindings for zippy mode
01:22	aaelony	actually, that works then goes overboard… i'll need to bound the (range) ;)
01:22	zRecursive	,(range)
01:22	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
01:24	alandipert	,(for [[i row] (map-indexed vector "stuff")] [i row])
01:24	clojurebot	([0 \s] [1 \t] [2 \u] [3 \f] [4 \f])
01:26	tomjack	(for+ :zip [row data i (range)] ...) ?
01:28	alandipert	tomjack: fancy
01:30	aaelony	tomjack: what is for+ … having trouble researching that...
01:30	tomjack	it's hypothetical
01:30	aaelony	ah!
01:42	aaelony	ok, I gave up and am using an agent instead...
01:43	tomjack	..for the index?
01:46	ddellacosta	what's the idiomatic way to compare hash-maps for equality? I'm just doing = and that's not working how I want.
01:47	ddellacosta	I guess I should be specific: I want to compare two clojure.lang.PersistenArrayMaps.
01:47	ddellacosta	PersistentArrayMap
01:47	tomjack	what is an example of = not working how you want?
01:47	egghead	,(= {:foo :bar} {:foo :bar})
01:47	clojurebot	true
01:47	aaelony	tomjack: yes
01:48	egghead	= is by value instead of ref
01:48	egghead	what is ref equality in clj
01:49	amalloy	egghead: identical?
01:49	egghead	ah nice, thanks amalloy
01:50	ddellacosta	thanks folks. I realized I'm being dumb and actually the maps I'm working with are not, in fact, equal, which is why it's telling me they are not equal. D'oh.
01:50	tomjack	clojure.data/diff
01:51	callen	ddellacosta: you really wanna use diff as a sanity check :)
01:52	ddellacosta	tomjack, callen: thanks! I didn't know about that one.
01:54	ddellacosta	oh that is SO much nicer than how I was doing it
01:55	callen	ddellacosta: don't thrash around, ask. :)
01:56	ddellacosta	callen: totally…the problem is that it doesn't even occur to me to ask sometimes. I wouldn't have thought to have asked the appropriate question, which was, "how can I best find the diff between two hash-maps?"
01:56	ddellacosta	hence the thrashing
02:29	ddellacosta	what are people using to measure test coverage for their Clojure codebase?
03:05	tsdh	Hi. I have 2 deftypes A and B which have mutual (instance? A/B ...) checks in some protocol implementation methods. Is there a way to make that compile other than splitting the instance checks in functions A? and B? and adding forward declarations?
03:35	ucb	many ohais
03:40	Uakh	ohaïs were had
03:40	hyPiRion	ohai
04:07	tsdh	Uh, is it intended that different clojure.core.cache types require different usage patterns? I.e., SoftCaches update in-place with (miss ...) whereas the other's return a new cache one has to use in place of the old one.
04:11	hiredman	tsdh: I'd checkout core.memoize
04:12	hiredman	(if you are looking at core.cache, because core.cache on it's own has never made sense to me)
04:13	tsdh	hiredman: I already use its SoftCaches in my project, so I thought I use its BasicCaches at another place, too. But now I simply use an (atom {}) which is as good for my use-case.
04:57	darkest_pod	Which concurrency primitive is best to share state between two working threads?
05:00	hiredman	http://wiki.gungfu.de/uploads/Main/clojure-conc.png
05:00	hyPiRion	(inc hiredman)
05:00	lazybot	⇒ 21
05:01	echo-area	(def hiredman (atom 20))
05:01	echo-area	Why does lazybot ignore me
05:03	hyPiRion	that's not legal lazybotian
05:03	hyPiRion	,(let [hiredman (atom 20)] (swap! hiredman inc))
05:03	clojurebot	21
05:04	darkest_pod	hiredman: Thanks!
05:40	tsdh	Is there a nrepl.el command that lets me load the current buffer and reload all required namespaces, too?
05:40	ucb	tsdh: https://github.com/clojure/tools.namespace
05:40	ucb	that might come in handy
05:42	hyPiRion	tsdh: you may want to look into Stuart Sierra's setup, it's thought out by a smart man
05:42	tsdh	ucb: That looks great, and it's motivated by the same problem I have. Compile a ns with protocols, now you need to recompile all ns with types implementing these protocols.
05:43	ucb	also what hyPiRion said
05:43	hyPiRion	tsdh: http://thinkrelevance.com/blog/2013/06/04/clojure-workflow-reloaded
05:45	tsdh	hyPiRion: Yes, very useful. Thanks.
06:04	noncom	what is the current fashion for cljs analog for clj-time?
06:04	noncom	i need a full-scale date manipulations with cljs
06:43	dnolen	noncom: probably worth taking a look at what's available via Google Closure
06:44	noncom	dnolen: yeah, looks like will have to. also found this http://stackoverflow.com/questions/17041115/clojurescript-date-time-library so not so out-of-the-box, but still not alone :)
06:44	g3ntleman	hey, everybody!
06:44	g3ntleman	Did anyone successfully build clojurec on os x?
06:44	dnolen	noncom: I would personally avoid anything that cannot be Closure optimized
06:45	g3ntleman	I'm running into compile problems.
06:45	noncom	dnolen: ok, this makes sense, i will make the priority
06:47	dnolen	noncom: which means there's an opportunity for a nice wrapper about the Closure date stuff if someone is so inclined.
06:49	dark_element	dnolen noncom, maybe even name it cljs-time
06:50	noncom	yes..
06:50	noncom	dark_element: i'm still not in twitter, btw :D but gonna be soon, also gonna make audiovizs things and will share
06:50	dark_element	noncom hey. I am now looking at webgl video filters for visualisations
06:51	noncom	did you go about shadertoy?
06:51	dark_element	noncom i am soon going to push the project and you will most probably reuse the code and just write plugins for viz
06:51	noncom	wow!
06:53	dark_element	noncom plugins are nothing fancy. just new namespaces and you will have to provide basic functions for viz.
06:54	dark_element	noncom shadertoy is fun place. i am looking into both shaders and applying filters on the output
07:08	noncom	dark_element: so r u using shadertoy or on your own?
07:12	noncom	doh, forging an entire time-date library for cljs is a big task..
07:15	dnolen	noncom: and unrealistic, which is why I suggested Closure + clj-time approach, just implement basics and over time (heh) people will likely submit enhancements
07:16	dnolen	so does leiningen plugins and tasks use the JVM settings specified in project.clj?
07:17	hyPiRion	dnolen: almost
07:17	dnolen	hyPiRion: what do you mean?
07:18	hyPiRion	Give me a moment, I'll find the ticket related to this
07:18	Somelauw	Too bad that error messages don't include the lines in which my clojure code actually gives an error.
07:18	Somelauw	ClassCastException java.lang.Character cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn clojure.core/apply (core.clj:619)
07:19	Somelauw	That could be anywhere
07:19	hyPiRion	dnolen: technomancy/leiningen#1230 contains information about how :jvm-opts works, the patch will be in 2.3.0 which is right around the corner
07:19	lazybot	Set default :jvm-opts in :base profile to :displace -- https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/1230 is closed
07:21	dnolen	hyPiRion: yeah that's mostly about the project, I'm wondering about plugins and tasks
07:23	hyPiRion	dnolen: right. Those won't use the jvm settings specified within project.clj. You'd have to use the environment variable JVM_OPTS for extra opts
07:23	hyPiRion	even then, I would've inspected what the leiningen shell script adds, because it is quite... configured
07:30	dnolen	hyPiRion: hrm, yeah the reason I'm looking at this is that CLJS compiler is nearly twice as slow for auto builds if you don't use server settings
07:33	instilled	What validation libraries is the most popular among clojurians? i'm looking for a general purpose validation library not tied to web, e.g. Sandbox. The other libraries (listed on clujure toolbox) all seem very similar and still actively developed. Any thoughts?
07:33	hyPiRion	yeah, we do some tweaks to speed JVM+Clojure loading up, at the cost of hotspot speed
07:34	dnolen	hyPiRion: is it possible to override?
07:34	dnolen	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/bin/lein#L120
07:37	hyPiRion	dnolen: hrm, not the way the arguments are ordered, unfortunately
07:37	dnolen	grr
07:40	hyPiRion	I'll put up an issue on it and see if we can find a way around it, may be that we can put something in for 2.3.0 if we figure out it's safe.
08:24	squidz	what options do I have when dealing with the datastructure differences between javascript and clojurescript? is there a good way to have our clojurescript sequences converted 'automagically'?
08:26	squidz	any libraries or anything that enable me to skip on using clj->js
08:27	dnolen	squidz: it's not possible
08:27	squidz	okay so it is just something that we have to pay attention to
08:28	squidz	dnolen: do you think that could be something that could be brought to clojurescript, or is there a fundamental limitation in the language that prevents it?
08:28	dnolen	squidz: ES 6 Proxy's could be used to work around this problem, but adoption seem unlikely
08:29	squidz	adoption of proxies?
08:29	squidz	in ES 6?
08:30	dnolen	squidz: yes
08:30	dnolen	squidz: what library are you trying to interact with where marshaling is a big issue?
08:40	squidz	dnolen: I am using D3
08:43	g3ntleman	Did anyone successfully build clojurec on os x?
08:51	tbaldridge	squidz: there was a Clojure/West talk about doing this (I think even using D3), it guy went to a ton of trouble to make cljs/js interop better.
08:51	tbaldridge	squidz: let me see if I can find his library
08:53	tbaldridge	squidz: the lib https://github.com/dribnet/mrhyde
08:53	tbaldridge	squidz: and a D3 wrapper using mrhyde https://github.com/dribnet/strokes
08:56	squidz	tbaldridge: okay. Do you know if the video is available to watch anywhere?
08:57	tbaldridge	squidz: the Clojure/West video schedule says it comes out on 7/29
08:57	tbaldridge	squidz: and that'll be on InfoQ
09:01	Somelauw	Is there a _ in clojure.core? Or what could the _ refer to in ClassCastException clojure.core$_ cannot be cast to java.lang.Number clojure.lang.Numbers.multiply (Numbers.java:146)?
09:06	squidz	cool can't wait to see it
09:06	Bronsa	Somelauw: ##(class -)
09:06	lazybot	⇒ clojure.core$_
09:06	Bronsa	,(* -)
09:06	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: Cannot cast clojure.core$_ to java.lang.Number>
09:07	Bronsa	Somelauw: you probably missed a paren somewhere
09:10	Somelauw	Bronsa: Okay, but what does it mean? Is _ a minus sign?
09:11	Somelauw	I found the error I was doing (for [x [1 - 1]]) instead of (for [x [1 -1]])
09:11	Bronsa	Somelauw: class names get munged ##(munge '-)
09:11	lazybot	⇒ _
09:12	Bronsa	Somelauw: java don't premit dashes and other symbols in class names
09:12	Bronsa	so clojure has to convert them to other things
09:12	Bronsa	- becomes _
09:22	Somelauw	Is there also a unmunge or something?
09:23	Bronsa	,(clojure.repl/demunge "clojure.core$_")
09:23	clojurebot	"clojure.core/-"
09:24	hyPiRion	be wary though, munging and demunging is not one-to-one
09:24	hyPiRion	,(map munge ["-" "_"])
09:24	clojurebot	("_" "_")
09:25	Somelauw	Bronsa: thanks
09:25	hyPiRion	,(let [identity (comp clojure.repl/demunge munge)] (identity "_"))
09:25	clojurebot	"-"
09:26	Somelauw	hyPiRion: does that mean that I can't have both a function - and _ in a namespace?
09:26	Somelauw	because they both get munged the same
09:26	Bronsa	Somelauw: no, namespaces don't need to munge vars
09:27	Bronsa	it's only the class name that'll be the same
09:27	Bronsa	it's probably not going to work when AOT'ing though
09:29	Bronsa	yeah, if you AOT compile (defn a- []) and (defn a_ []) you overwrite a- with a_
09:32	Somelauw	But (def - 5) and (def _ 6) can conflict?
09:32	Somelauw	I'm not sure I completely understnad yet, but I'll avoid having both a_ and a- anyway.
09:32	Bronsa	no, defs don't break
09:33	Bronsa	it's fns that break when AOT
09:33	Bronsa	Somelauw: yeah, just avoid having the same name with - and _ and you'll be fine
09:33	Somelauw	oh, because functions are compiled to classes and classes can't have - in their name?
09:33	Bronsa	yes
09:34	Bronsa	so both a_b and a-b get compiled to the.ns%a_b.class
09:34	Bronsa	s/%/$
09:44	chrisrossi	I came across this: http://clojure.org/streams
09:44	chrisrossi	just wanted to say +1
09:44	chrisrossi	i'm coming from python and find python generators to be extremely useful.
09:49	noncom	did anyone ever read an mp4 with opencv and clojure?
09:50	noncom	i did that in java, but interested if someone had good experience with clojure oto
09:51	noncom	also there were many changes to opencv-java and javacv...
09:52	learner_	Hello All, a newbie question. What does "list comprehension" mean ?
09:55	squidz	hyPiRion: is it possilbe to use leiningen into an already existing non-clojure project?
09:57	squidz	learner_: list comprehensions are kind of like mathemetical set definitions
09:57	squidz	so something like the set of x where x is greateer than 10 and less then 20 {x \| x > 10 : x < 20}
09:58	squidz	which is [11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19]
10:01	Somelauw	Is there something like a .leiningenrc or .clojurerc file, so I can always require pprint when starting a repl?
10:02	Somelauw	chrisrossi: python generators are a poor man's stream.
10:03	Somelauw	learner_: You can create them in clojure with the for macro.
10:07	Somelauw	ok, I found I can put stuff in user.clj
10:09	hyPiRion	dnolen: false alarm, you can in fact override the default settings. I am just not able to properly read bourne-again shell scripts.
10:10	hyPiRion	dnolen: it's just LEIN_JVM_OPTS="your settings here"
10:10	nDuff	...random aside, coming from #bash: LEIN_JVM_OPTS="foo" is probably the _worst_ way to pass a list of arguments around
10:11	nDuff	...as you can't include something like -f "filename with space" inside that argument list without forcing use of eval
10:11	nDuff	...and if you use eval, then arbitrary code inside that environment variable is necessarily executable
10:11	nDuff	and a great deal of work (which most folks writing scripts don't know how to do) is necessary to sanitize arguments being passed in.
10:11	nDuff	It's seriously bad news, and it's also completely endemic among shell scripts used to start Java processes for some reason.
10:12	hyPiRion	nDuff: We'd love improvements, fork Leiningen and send a pull request
10:17	futile	,(doc ffirst)
10:17	clojurebot	"([x]); Same as (first (first x))"
10:17	futile	neat
10:18	futile	,(doc rrest)
10:18	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
10:18	futile	:D
10:19	hyPiRion	,(doc nnext)
10:19	clojurebot	"([x]); Same as (next (next x))"
10:21	futile	ha
10:21	futile	,(doc fffirst)
10:21	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
10:21	futile	,(doc fnext)
10:21	clojurebot	"([x]); Same as (first (next x))"
10:21	futile	ha!
10:21	futile	oh man, caddddr all over ahead
10:21	futile	*agan
10:21	futile	*again
10:23	futile	Are there any Clojure libs that complement Datomic?
10:24	mmarczyk	futile: sure: https://github.com/rkneufeld/conformity https://github.com/halgari/fafnir
10:25	futile	Thanks mmarczyk :)
10:25	mmarczyk	:-)
10:25	chrisrossi	Somelauw: I'll withhold judgement but "poor man's" seems overly pejorative at first glance. i understand the dangers inherent in stateful iteration, but the allergy to it seems a little extreme to me. usually the scope a stateful iterator is used in is local, nonconcurrent, and entirely safe.
10:40	pyrhho	What's the clojure equivalent of MyClass.class ?
10:41	clgv	pyrhho: MyClass
10:41	clgv	,String
10:41	clojurebot	java.lang.String
10:41	clgv	,(type String)
10:41	clojurebot	java.lang.Class
10:41	pyrhho	ok. so I don't need to call anything to turn it into a class object..
10:41	clgv	,(type java.util.List)
10:41	clojurebot	java.lang.Class
10:41	futile	,(.new String)
10:41	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: new for class java.lang.Class>
10:41	futile	i dunno
10:42	pyrhho	,(new String)
10:42	clojurebot	""
10:42	futile	,(String/new)
10:42	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.NoSuchFieldException: new, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
10:42	clgv	pyrhho: a class name is automatically resolve to a class symbol in the examples above
10:42	futile	ok fine
10:42	pyrhho	ah ok.
10:42	tolitius	,(String.)
10:42	pyrhho	thanks
10:42	clojurebot	""
10:42	futile	yeah that
10:42	clgv	pyrhho: delete the "symbol" ^^
10:42	futile	,`~String
10:42	clojurebot	java.lang.String
10:43	futile	,``~~String
10:43	clojurebot	java.lang.String
10:43	pyrhho	So, when I have a java method with the type signature methodName(Class<? extends C> arg1), I could just do (.method obj MyClass), then, right?
10:43	futile	OH NO
10:43	futile	,`````~~~~~String
10:43	clojurebot	java.lang.String
10:43	clgv	,(type `~String)
10:43	clojurebot	java.lang.Class
10:43	clgv	,(type `String)
10:43	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Symbol
10:43	clgv	^^
10:43	futile	,(= java.lang.String String)
10:43	clojurebot	true
10:43	clgv	pyrhho: yes
10:44	pyrhho	ok cool thanks
10:44	clgv	pyrhho: try out your current scenario on the REPL
10:48	silasdavis	Any convention/idiom for use of 'single' and "double" quoted strings?
10:49	Somelauw	chrisrossi: I'm not allergic to stateful iteration. It's more that streams can do more than generators. For example, when doing s = generator(), you can only iterate through s once in python, but if s were a stream, it can be iterated multiple times.
10:49	chrisrossi	ok, gotcha.
10:49	silasdavis	oh ignore that last comment
10:50	silasdavis	question rather - too long away from clojure, forget what everything does
10:50	chrisrossi	one thing i'm missing from the streams writeup is any example of what generator code might look like.
10:51	chrisrossi	the python 'yield' makes writing those things really nice. anything similarly clever here?
10:51	Somelauw	chrisrossi: concat and keep?
10:52	Somelauw	and mapcat
10:53	futile	I bet Python generators could usually be done with plain old lazy sequences.
10:53	Somelauw	there is no direct equivalent to yield. But using concat, keep, mapcat and (for :when) you can get equivalent functioning code.
10:54	nDuff	chrisrossi: see http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/lazy-seq
10:55	nDuff	chrisrossi: ...core.async actually results in code that looks very, very much like Python generators, but that's rather a different thing.
10:55	chrisrossi	nDuff: yeah i was looking at core.async yesterday. tickles some of the same brain cells, but still different.
10:56	chrisrossi	i came to core.async looking for a gevent work alike, then realized it doesn't help with io.
10:57	nDuff	chrisrossi: eh? helps perfectly well with async IO.
10:57	nDuff	chrisrossi: ...and Java has had async APIs ever since NIO was introduced, which was ages ago.
10:59	chrisrossi	hmm, maybe i still haven't grokked something essential, but it looks like the only time in core.async that you yield back to the go loop is when you push or pop from a channel. if there were io channels...
11:00	nDuff	chrisrossi: if you kick off an IO operation with a on-receive callback that feeds into a channel...
11:01	chrisrossi	ok, sure. that's doable. you still have to use callbacks to do that--something gevent or core.async is designed to allow you to avoid doing explicit callbacks and write synchronous style code.
11:02	tolitius	chrisrossi:
11:02	tolitius	(go
11:02	tolitius	(let [c (chan)]
11:02	tolitius	(future (>!! c (blocking-io-read some-stream)))
11:02	tolitius	(let [msg (!< c)
11:02	tolitius	(do-something-with msg))))
11:04	chrisrossi	yep, that'd work, but it's still not the same. now you have a thread dedicated to one file/socket/etc...
11:09	pyrhho	So, I have a proxied Object, and I'm trying to call a method it got by extending an abstract class, but am seeing "IllegalArgumentException Can't call public method of non-public class"
11:11	pyrhho	Sorry, it's not a proxied object, actually..
11:12	pyrhho	I have a "public final class ServerBootstrap extends AbstractBootstrap<ServerBootstrap, ServerChannel>", but am trying to call a method it gets from AbstractBootstrap.
11:12	pyrhho	Is it the generics, maybe?
11:14	pyrhho	I get the error when I do: "(doto (new ServerBootstrap) (.channel MyChannel))"
11:17	tolitius	chrisrossi: true, but hopefully a very sort lived thread
11:18	tolitius	can be wrapped in a cached thread pool
11:19	alexgunnarson	hey everyone - i was wondering… what are some options for clojure iOS development?
11:19	alexgunnarson	i know of some instances where clojurescript has been used
11:20	alexgunnarson	but clojure… the jvm doesn't run on ios
11:20	chrisrossi	looks like clojure.java.shell doesn't support streaming to/from subprocs. some 3rd party libraries do. any favorites?
11:20	gfredericks	does anybody know what was meant here about reader metadata & IReference? https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure-dev/mAHFtuaEXRk
11:21	tolitius	chrisrossi: what are streaming from shell?
11:21	tolitius	(e.g. that can't be streamed from JVM)
11:22	tolitius	*what are you
11:23	chrisrossi	i just want to call out to shell prog, get an output stream that can be used to write to the subproc's stdin and/or an input stream that can be used to read from a subproc's stdout.
11:24	chrisrossi	just a pipe, basically.
11:26	nDuff	alexgunnarson: I've seen some folks working on an ObjC compilation target for that reason.
11:27	alexgunnarson	nDuff: any success with it?
11:27	nDuff	alexgunnarson: ...that's something closer to cljs than Clojure proper, though.
11:27	tolitius	chrisrossi: https://github.com/Raynes/conch might do what you want. check it out
11:27	nDuff	alexgunnarson: Don't know -- haven't tracked it closely.
11:28	alexgunnarson	nDuff: okay. thanks :)
11:28	chrisrossi	tolitius: i was actually looking at that one. thanks. have you used it?
11:29	tolitius	chrisrossi: e.g. (grep "ssh" {:in (ps "-e" {:seq true})})
11:29	tolitius	no, did not have a need, but I am looking for an excuse to :)
11:30	tolitius	chrisrossi: Raynes is solid though, so I would expect it to work as doced
11:33	chrisrossi	cool. i see the low-level api gives you :out as an input stream, just like i want. ;)
11:33	chrisrossi	and the method of composing pipelines is pretty cool.
11:34	egghead	we're using conch for a little task runner, works well
11:34	tolitius	chrisrossi: yep, very clean
11:41	jvc	hi, I wrote this help mode for clojure https://github.com/judevc/clojure-here
11:46	mmarczyk	gfredericks: going by the code, objects implementing IReference would have their metadata reset to the leftmost metadata item specified in the source
11:46	mmarczyk	gfredericks: ^:foo ^:bar ^:quux iref -> iref with {:foo true}, but not :bar or :quux
11:46	futile	jvc: can you put it in melpa?
11:48	mmarczyk	gfredericks: the relevant concrete classes are Namespace, Agent, Atom, Ref, Var -- not exactly read in very often -- so not a terribly big deal
11:48	jvc	futile: i put it in marmalade
11:48	jvc	I haven't put anything in melpa, let me have a try.
11:48	gfredericks	mmarczyk: how do you read them?
11:49	futile	jvc: melpa is awesome
11:50	gfredericks	mmarczyk: oh I see: (meta (read-string "^{:foo 12} ^{:bar 15} #=(atom nil)")) => {:foo 12}
11:52	mmarczyk	gfredericks: right
11:52	mmarczyk	gfredericks: no way to read these in besides read-eval that I can think of off the top of my head
11:55	egghead	can I have a macro that behaves differently in cljs than clj somehow?
11:56	egghead	just want to reference 'go' by clojure.core.async/go and cljs.core.async.macros/go depending on the env its used for
11:57	dnolen	egghead: there's not really a simple way to do that
11:57	egghead	c'est la vie
11:57	bgilbert	egghead: maybe two separate macros under different namespaces, and shared functions in a common namespace
11:57	egghead	currently i'm just not qualifying it and assuming that 'go' will be available at expand time
11:57	nDuff	(feature tags? something that made the language implementation queryable)
11:58	egghead	ya two namespaces is probably a better way to do it
11:58	egghead	thanks
11:58	mmarczyk	dnolen: egghead: haven't tried this, but checking whether there's a dynamic binding in place for cljs-ns (in cljs.analyzer) might be a way to do it
11:59	mmarczyk	and incidentally I think it would be nice to have a supported way to do this
12:01	dnolen	mmarczyk: sounds like feature expressions to me :)
12:03	mmarczyk	dnolen: sure :-)
12:03	mmarczyk	dnolen: I'd still like to have clojure-version bound to something sensible when compiling cljs
12:04	mmarczyk	would be super funny if a compiler macro then used clojure-version to determine which Clojure-side facilities are available though
12:04	mmarczyk	oh well.
12:06	mmarczyk	oh wow, confluence uses some sort of rich text editor? no markup? :-(
12:07	dnolen	mmarczyk: I think it's possible to support Markdown, not sure Clojure Confluence does
12:08	futile	POCT = plain old Clojure tricks
12:08	futile	POCT is great. libs should encourage POCT instead of reinventing them
12:10	mmarczyk	dnolen: oh great, help mentions some markup too, so that's encouraging... I'll find out soon enough if we've got it enabled
12:10	ChongLi	http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Feature+Expressions
12:11	ChongLi	this is a nice article
12:11	dnolen	ChongLi: pretty sure it's on the table for Clojure 1.6 - we'll see
12:11	ChongLi	sweet
12:13	futile	dnolen: im probably way uninformed.. but would it make more sense to just define a stdlib-interface that each platform has to conform to?
12:13	futile	then each program wouldnt care where its running, its just written one way.
12:13	learner_	squidz: Thanks for your answer about List comprehension. Really appreciate it
12:13	ChongLi	no
12:13	ChongLi	one of the core philosophies of clojure is platform power
12:14	ChongLi	by wrapping the platform in a standard interface, you lose that
12:14	futile	touche
12:14	futile	yeah, it would require wrapping every single platform feature. thats not realistic
12:14	dnolen	futile: it only sound good in theory, platforms tend to differ in dramatic ways
12:15	llasram	Also, that kind of stuff is hard to get right. If you do it well, it saves users a ton of time. If you do it wrong, you get the Java process API
12:15	futile	ah right, exceptions/types/concurrency/etc
12:15	ChongLi	it pushes you into a "lowest common denominator" standard platform
12:15	ChongLi	feature expressions help you to detect and leverage your platform specifically
12:26	mmarczyk	design page re: recur to enclosing loop: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Named+loops+with+recur-to
12:26	mmarczyk	(incl. links to clojure-dev discussion and cljs proof of concept)
12:58	callen	Dear #clojure, this is your daily reminder that https://github.com/uncomplicate/fluokitten exists.
13:02	futile	I thought I wanted comp, but that wasn't right. Then I thought it was iterate, that's not right either.
13:02	futile	I guess I want (f1 (f2 (f3 f4))) or something.
13:03	futile	It's kinda like iterate, but with different functions each time, from a list of functions.
13:03	futile	How would you do this?
13:04	futile	Maybe reduce...
13:05	futile	,(not (zero? (inc 3)))
13:05	clojurebot	true
13:05	justin_smith	((apply comp fn-list) input)
13:05	futile	,((apply comp [not zero? inc]) 3)
13:05	clojurebot	true
13:05	futile	Oh.
13:06	futile	Thanks justin_smith :)
13:06	futile	(inc justin_smith)
13:06	lazybot	⇒ 3
13:07	futile	Yeah that makes a lot of sense suddenly.
13:09	justin_smith	another option: (defmacro ->vec [input fns] `(-> ~input ~@fns))
13:09	futile	Well even so, I think I'm doing it all wrong.
13:09	justin_smith	I don't think the bot will do macros, but that will work like -> but take the fns in a list/vector
13:09	futile	I'm trying to implement around-each fixtures.
13:10	futile	(but it's all wrong)
13:10	Bronsa	,(get (sorted-set 1) :foo) ;; this was surprising to me
13:10	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Keyword>
13:11	justin_smith	a fixture should be a function that takes the action it wraps as an argument, and it can decide whether to do it's action to the functions input or output or both
13:11	futile	justin_smith: can you show me in code (refheap)?
13:11	justin_smith	that way you can compose fixtures (similar to ring handlers for example)
13:11	futile	cuz im confused by what you mean
13:12	justin_smith	I have a meeting in four minutes, but remind me sometime later if I forget
13:12	futile	justin_smith: oh ok
13:13	futile	for anyone else following along, this is my plan so far: https://www.refheap.com/16903
13:19	amalloy	mmarczyk: neat!
13:20	bbloom	mmarczyk: another current "solution": trampolines
13:21	amalloy	trampolines solve everything in real life; why not in clojure too?
13:24	bbloom	hmmm… the letfn comment about loop layers is interesting
13:24	bbloom	in theory, if you have mutually recursively defined functions, couldn't you recur from tail position to another function in the letfn block?
13:25	amalloy	bbloom: in scheme you could. in clojure it's not possible, and i don't think mmarczyk can change that
13:26	amalloy	i mean, i guess he could conceivably code-walk the letfn and transform it to a single function, but it would be as much work as core.async's go macro
13:26	bbloom	yeah, i guess you'd need to inline all the mutually recursive functions into each other, in case you were to let such a fn escape
13:27	bbloom	i really like the explictness of recur
13:27	bbloom	super useful to have that checked for you at compile time
13:27	futile	Oh man, I think I have to use recursin.
13:32	callen	bbloom: https://github.com/bmillare/dj.compose
13:33	callen	sigh, did he ignore me again?
13:33	callen	can somebody copy-paste my message to him please?
13:33	callen	that repo might help him.
13:34	Bronsa	19:19:53 <callen> bbloom: https://github.com/bmillare/dj.compose
13:34	llasram	futile: (reduce #(partial %2 %1) test-fn [fixture-1 fixture-2 fixture-3])
13:34	futile	llasram: ah!
13:34	llasram	I'm not sure if that's really what you want, but produces what you mentioned
13:34	futile	why do you think its not?
13:35	callen	Bronsa: thank you.
13:35	bbloom	Bronsa: i heard him :-P
13:35	llasram	futile: Just seems odd, but thinking about it for a second, I see what you're going for
13:35	futile	llasram: yeah, each fixture receives a function it should call, which is either the test function, or another wrapped fixture.
13:36	futile	llasram: this does that perfectly without forcing the users to wrap all fixture bodies in an anon func
13:36	bbloom	callen: this is interesting. thanks. in generally, i'm deeply interested in this sort of composition
13:36	bbloom	i frequently lament about the fact that extend is useless b/c all the core abstractions are still interfaces :-/
13:38	callen	bbloom: glad it was useful. good luck.
13:38	callen	bbloom: here's a puzzler, is there a way to generate java annotations with Clojure without using AOT/gen-class?
13:38	callen	bbloom: ideally with proxy?
13:39	callen	I saw the clojure.asm and AnnotationVisitor
13:39	callen	doesn't seem like there's anything shake-n-bake.
13:39	llasram	callen: This came up a few days ago... I'm not sure it actually worked out for aphyr, but can invoke the internals of gen-class w/o AOT, and give the results to the same class-loader used by deftype
13:39	callen	composing proxy could be annoying.
13:39	callen	llasram: he was in here last night and it still hadn't been resolved.
13:40	llasram	Oh, well, there we go
13:40	llasram	(checks some logs)
13:40	callen	I think realistically it's going to require rewriting/wrapping proxy and using the AnnotationWriter/AnnotationVisitor.java stuff in clojure.asm.
13:41	llasram	Hmmm, I wonder why the reach-into-internal stuff didn't work for him
13:42	stuartsierra	callen: deftype supports annotations.
13:42	stuartsierra	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/229bf8fe9a751e4f48bb2b7ea57e27ebc43d26ae/test/clojure/test_clojure/annotations/java_6.clj
13:44	callen	stuartsierra: I tihnk it's needed for proxying classes from Netty.
13:44	callen	stuartsierra: I'm pretty sure aphyr already knows he can use annotations with deftype.
13:44	callen	That's not the issue.
13:45	stuartsierra	Oh, sorry, I tuned in halfway through.
13:45	callen	stuartsierra: Netty uses/requires annotations and it's making his life difficult. Proxy needs to support annotations for better java interop.
13:46	stuartsierra	I recall using Netty in the past (version 3.x?), and I didn't need any annotations then.
13:46	callen	stuartsierra: aphyr is out on the hairy edge apparently.
13:47	stuartsierra	Often annotation-based APIs have an alternative, lower-level API that doesn't require annotations.
13:47	callen	stuartsierra: http://docs.jboss.org/netty/3.1/api/org/jboss/netty/channel/ChannelPipelineCoverage.html http://docs.jboss.org/netty/3.2/api/org/jboss/netty/channel/class-use/ChannelHandler.Sharable.html
13:47	callen	stuartsierra: I'm sure, given the signs of madness he was exhibiting, if such a thing were possible he would've done so.
13:47	callen	proxy needs to support annotations.
13:48	stuartsierra	OK, I'm not disputing that.
13:49	stuartsierra	When faced with an annotation-heavy Java API, I usually recommend writing wrapping Clojure functions in Java to do the annotation stuff.
13:49	stuartsierra	s/writing//
13:50	callen	I'd rather fix proxy.
13:50	futile	What's that function that lets "defsomething" macros keep the metadata users gave it?
13:55	futile	Saw it a lot in clojure.core functions, can't remember which ones though.
13:56	gfredericks	futile: if the macro passes the symbol through then it's normally not an issue I think
13:56	pbostrom`	futile: name-with-attributes?
13:57	futile	sounds right
13:57	futile	except i thought whatever it was was in core
13:58	futile	gfredericks: oh i think im just losing metadata because my macro uses with-meta instead of vary-meta
13:58	futile	you're right. thanks.
14:07	miwa	I went to bed too late last night after having started to explore the world of clojure.. I dreamed of rainbow coloured parantheses o.O
14:07	seangrove	miwa: There's an emacs mode for that
14:08	miwa	well, I'm a vim user =P
14:08	callen	miwa: sorry to hear that.
14:08	seangrove	Well, heaven have mercy
14:08	seangrove	Does your family know?
14:08	miwa	hah, I've even converted one or two emacs users actually ;)
14:08	seangrove	miwa: vim's good stuff, no worries :)
14:09	seangrove	https://github.com/kien/rainbow_parentheses.vim
14:09	zilti	I once tried to use vim, I didn't even manage to set it up for clojure
14:09	miwa	well, setting it up is the hard part unfortunately zilti
14:10	zilti	Though I'd miss elisp too much.
14:10	futile	welp
14:10	ChongLi	vim is great for editing tasks
14:10	zilti	And orgmode
14:10	futile	writing good macros is hard
14:10	ChongLi	emacs is great for running processes like repls and stuff
14:10	miwa	well, I hear there's a vi mode in emacs for those who are so inclined :P
14:10	ChongLi	yeah evil
14:10	futile	ive been impressed by the architecture of Sublime Text
14:11	futile	its like Emacs but for 2013 instead of 1982
14:11	miwa	yeah, Sublime Text seems pretty cool.. it's a bummer it isn't free though =/
14:11	ChongLi	yeah that's a dealbreaker
14:11	futile	thats what employers are for, to pay for it
14:11	zilti	But it's not using lisp... bah
14:11	futile	zilti: so?
14:11	ChongLi	it's not about the money
14:11	futile	ChongLi: oh, libre?
14:11	zilti	Sublime is free, isn't it? It's "just" not open
14:11	ChongLi	yes
14:12	futile	ChongLi: yeah, i dont care about that anymore. look what good libre did to emacs.
14:12	futile	its stuck in 1983 thanks to libre
14:12	ChongLi	that does not follow
14:12	futile	and look at linux vs mac. libre isnt doing anything for me, the user.
14:12	zilti	Well, I'd not want Emacs to change much
14:12	ChongLi	I'm sorry you feel that way
14:13	futile	ChongLi: i believe you
14:13	llasram	Yeah....... RMS's fears of non-free software polluting Emacs through runtime shared library loading aren't exactly a necessary property of libre software
14:13	futile	i used to care about libre on principle, but pragmatially, it gives me no real power as a user.
14:13	ChongLi	clojure is libre as well
14:13	nDuff	futile: speaking as an end-user, I feel hamstrung whenever I use a system I can't get into the guts of and modify.
14:13	nDuff	futile: ...and, to be clear, I _do_ use that capability with some frequency.
14:13	llasram	(inc nDuff)
14:13	lazybot	⇒ 4
14:13	ChongLi	if it weren't, most of us likely wouldn't be here
14:14	futile	i think that xkcd about scripting linux to keep the screen from going black sums up my argument against any supposed benefit of libre
14:14	fowlslegs	I am having a problem with the clojure.java.javadoc api
14:14	fowlslegs	The javadoc function is rendering incromprehensibly
14:14	futile	"oh she got dressed and left only 30 minutes into me reading the manual on scripting the cursor"
14:15	futile	or however it goes
14:15	fowlslegs	Is there a way to fix this or should I investigate alternative java documentation?
14:15	seangrove	fowlslegs: Sorry, haven't used the javadoc pieces at all
14:15	ChongLi	futile: you could repeat the same exercise with pretty much any proprietary software product
14:15	nDuff	futile: last month, I patched Ivy to add SSH agent support; to fix revision mapping support, and... eh, something else.
14:15	ChongLi	it does nothing to support your point
14:15	nDuff	futile: if the source had been closed, I would have had no recourse at all.
14:15	seangrove	I don't get the feeling that it's used all that much
14:15	futile	ChongLi: right. meaning libre or not makes no difference.
14:15	fowlslegs	seangrove: thanks!
14:16	ChongLi	futile: convenience is not the goal of free software
14:16	ChongLi	freedom is
14:16	futile	nDuff: not true. if the demand is high enough, a competitor comes out that gives you what you really want, and kills out the other guy
14:16	fowlslegs	anyone else know about the javadoc fxn?
14:16	nDuff	futile: that's in the long run. In the long run, as they say, we're all dead.
14:16	futile	ChongLi: freedom is a means to an end, not an end in itself
14:16	nDuff	futile: The short run matters.
14:16	futile	nDuff: no, in the short run too. datomic for example.
14:16	ChongLi	without freedom, you may lose everything
14:17	nDuff	futile: in the short run, I can't typically afford switching costs.
14:17	fowlslegs	Or does anyone know of a doc library that's good and contains java?
14:17	futile	ChongLi: thats an exaggeration
14:17	futile	datomic isnt libre and its wonderful compared to postgres and mongo which are libre
14:17	nDuff	futile: ...and, by the way, the licensing on datomic hurts it a lot.
14:17	ChongLi	futile: tell that to the users of google reader
14:17	futile	nDuff: time will tell if it actually does hurt it or if thats just a false opinion
14:17	nDuff	futile: I haven't been able to use it in any of the places I've worked since it came out due to the licensing
14:17	futile	nDuff: even datomic free?
14:18	nDuff	futile: ...because we weren't willing to put down $$$ until we knew it was worth it, and we couldn't evaluate without risking lockin.
14:18	zilti	I don't mind using non-libre software sometimes, but as a future software developer I'll do everything I can to make my money with libre software
14:18	nDuff	futile: go with free, and you're betting transition costs on the product being worthwhile.
14:18	nDuff	futile: that's a hard sell to management.
14:19	futile	nDuff: yeah, so some corporations lose out in the shortest-term due to that. but maybe thats actually a good thing. if you'd jumped in and found out it wasnt performant, youd have lost that valuable time. better for everyone to wait til it proves itself, not just people who dont wanna pay
14:19	futile	ChongLi: i dont know any users of google reader
14:19	seangrove	nDuff: same concerns over lock-in with datomic as well
14:20	nDuff	futile: "better for everyone to wait" gets you things like the Python2->Python3 transition, where it's years after 3.0 is called preferred by the dev team but everybody is waiting for someone else to go port libraries over first.
14:21	futile	nDuff: thats a library concern, not analogous to datomic's issue. once datomic proves itself, everyone can jump in without hesitation. python3 isnt adopted because every lib author needs to wait for every other lib author.
14:22	nDuff	futile: how in the world is datomic going to prove itself is the strong majority of its userbase aren't willing to consider it because it's unproven and too risky to use the free version for a pilot that might need to scale?
14:22	nDuff	futile: if people _do_ use it successfully, you have things like Viaweb's use of Common LISP
14:22	nDuff	-- a competitive advantage they keep to themselves and don't publicize.
14:22	nDuff	...so others don't know that it's been used successfully until years after the fact.
14:23	futile	nDuff: thats only assuming every one of them needs that competitive advantage, which im sure they wont.
14:23	futile	if we were to use datomic where i work, im sure we wouldnt mind publicizing that fact, we dont have many competitors.
14:23	futile	our niche is something else, not how well we scale.
14:23	nDuff	futile: Right. Fact of the matter is that the Clojure community is limited in size. There are only so many potential adopters you can afford to drive off.
14:24	futile	nDuff: isnt datomic just java? tons more people can use it than just us.
14:24	nDuff	futile: Not everyone's projects are going to work out -- many to most will fail for reasons completely unrelated to the datastore.
14:24	futile	not to mention it uses rest lately, so even rails guys can use it
14:24	nDuff	futile: it's "just Java", but it's not nearly as usable from Java.
14:24	futile	nDuff: heh, nothing is :)
14:24	nDuff	...is the impression I got last time I looked.
14:24	nDuff	As in, hard enough to use from Java that nobody would want to.
14:24	zilti	futile: You still have to write the requests in EDN aka Clojure if you use it from Java
14:25	futile	zilti: edn isnt hard for java devs to learn for this small purpose
14:25	futile	look, we're way off topic
14:25	nDuff	futile: anyhow, any shop using Java is a place prioritizing being able to replace their staff over making their staff productive
14:25	zilti	So in Clojure you can use data structures but in Java you have to put together Strings
14:25	nDuff	those aren't the places that are going to be using Datomic anyhow.
14:25	futile	my main point was that Sublime Text looks like its emacs-done-right. and thats pretty cool.
14:25	futile	main thing holding me from switching altogether is that its paredit-mode is lacking some important keys
14:26	futile	zilti: just like sql
14:26	futile	which they've managed fine so far ;)
14:27	futile	anyway, writing good macros is hard.
14:27	zilti	Damn, today is the first time I hate clojurescript for not having runtime macros...
14:27	futile	oh?
14:28	amalloy	does anyone happen to know what the jvm does when it receives a signal (sigterm, sigint, etc)? it seems to be doing basically what i want (giving InterruptedException to my running threads, then shutting down), but i wonder if that's actually what's going on, and whether that's promised behavior
14:29	hyPiRion	amalloy: Starts a new thread with max priority, and handles the Signal through a SignalHandler
14:29	zilti	I'm working on a project where it should be possible to just define forms for database editing with basically no logic to be inside, and have to somehow get that form out, modify it and listen to everything. Would have been way easier with some clojure.walk magic in a macro
14:31	hyPiRion	What happens with the specifics one, I'm not sure. Most of them are implemented natively, for whatever reason.
14:34	futile	,(let [list [:foo :bar "baz" :quux :yay], [a [b & c]] (split-with (complement string?) list)] [a b c])
14:34	clojurebot	[(:foo :bar) "baz" (:quux :yay)]
14:34	futile	sweet
14:34	futile	is that terrible code, or fine?
14:36	seangrove	futile: the code seems fine, but the intent seems terrible
14:36	futile	seangrove: whyzat?
14:36	seangrove	But I don't know what you're trying to do, so maybe it makes sense
14:36	futile	well, im writing a horrible macro.
14:36	Raynes	"That sounds like a terrible idea! I don't know what it is, but I bet it's horrible!"
14:36	futile	:D
14:36	futile	im making this work (deftest "testing foo" ...body...)
14:37	futile	except, since it uses a string instead of a symbol, you cant put metadata before that string, since it wont compile
14:37	futile	so im going to just let people put a list of keywords there that will act like ^:kw
14:37	seangrove	Raynes: Far too many bangs
14:38	futile	ie (deftest :foo :bar "testing something" ...body...)
14:38	futile	which i admit is "terrible, just terrible". but i dont have a better idea yet.
14:38	seangrove	futile: That's not so bad
14:38	seangrove	It just wasn't clear why you'd be splitting/destructuring like that from the a b c example
14:39	futile	the inconsistency between ^:foo and :foo is bad
14:43	squidz	zilti: how would you do it with javascript?
14:44	zilti	squidz: Oh, I won't touch javascript, I'll stick to clojure :) Sure there's a way, but runtime macros would have made it simpler.
14:44	futile	is there a better way to do this? &(into {} (map vector [:a :b :c] (repeat true)))
14:44	futile	oops i meant &&(into {} (map vector [:a :b :c] (repeat true)))
14:44	futile	oh man whatever.
14:44	futile	,(into {} (map vector [:a :b :c] (repeat true)))
14:45	clojurebot	{:a true, :b true, :c true}
14:45	hyPiRion	,(zipmap [:a :b :c] (repeat true))
14:45	clojurebot	{:c true, :b true, :a true}
14:45	SegFaultAX	arohner: Ping.
14:45	arohner	pong
14:45	SegFaultAX	arohner: Circle is awesome.
14:45	arohner	thanks :-)
14:45	SegFaultAX	Is github integration on the roadmap?
14:46	fowlslegs	(.printStackTrace *e) is giving me nil
14:46	arohner	WDYM, integration?
14:46	fowlslegs	but an exception was just thrown
14:46	SegFaultAX	I want to replace our CI with circle, but my team needs github commit status api.
14:46	arohner	we already do that
14:46	SegFaultAX	:O
14:46	SegFaultAX	Docs?
14:46	squidz	zilti: exactly
14:46	fowlslegs	any ideas on where the error is?
14:47	callen	SegFaultAX: what are they using right now?
14:47	SegFaultAX	arohner: Also, I really enjoyed your talk on infoq.
14:47	arohner	SegFaultAX: you shouldn't need to configure anything
14:47	SegFaultAX	arohner: Orly?
14:47	arohner	if we run the build, it updates commit status
14:48	SegFaultAX	arohner: Weird, the initial tests we did didn't seem to do that. But maybe we missed it since we're also testing codeship
14:48	arohner	thanks! you might also enjoy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wgsDosgWhE . I was going to do that talk, then it interfered with my honeymoon
14:48	SegFaultAX	arohner: Are you in SF?
14:48	arohner	most of the time
14:48	SegFaultAX	arohner: You open to lunch sometime?
14:48	arohner	absolutely
14:51	ToxicFrog	How do I take the sqrt of an integer? The docs I can find all refer to 'clojure.contrib.math or 'clojure.math.numeric-tower, neither of which I seem to have (in 1.4)
14:51	futile	is remove-ns expensive?
14:51	ToxicFrog	Should I just make it a double and use java interop?
14:52	llasram	ToxicFrog: It should auto-coerce to a double when you call `Math/sqrt`
14:52	zilti	clojure.contrib is "dead" since 1.3
14:52	llasram	ToxicFrog: Or are you looking for an exact answer for when the square root is an integer?
14:53	ToxicFrog	llasram: nah, I don't need an exact answer
14:54	SegFaultAX	,(Math/sqrt 16)
14:55	clojurebot	4.0
14:55	futile	,(gensym)
14:55	clojurebot	G__31
14:55	futile	,(gensym "foo")
14:55	clojurebot	foo60
14:55	futile	neat.
15:01	stuartsierra	Huh. clojure.lang.Range isn't used anywhere.
15:02	bbloom	stuartsierra: `git rm` is my favorite command :-)
15:02	egghead	hmm, is there any utility around to split a command line string into an argument vector?
15:02	amalloy	stuartsierra: i always assumed it was an early prototype before lazy-seqs made (range) possible
15:03	stuartsierra	amalloy: That's my guess too. Probably left for backwards compatibility.
15:03	egghead	seems like a tricky problem, things like "foo -x 'bar 23' --foo bar"
15:03	amalloy	egghead: well, your shell will do the "hard" part there, of making "bar 23" a single arg
15:03	amalloy	tools.cli isn't bad
15:04	egghead	amalloy: I'm taking in command strings as input, so I have to do it myself :(
15:04	bbloom	stuartsierra: but backwards compatibility inhibits my ability to git rm freely.....
15:04	egghead	unless I just forward it to sh -c or something
15:05	seangrove	stuartsierra: Isn't that something codeq could tell you?
15:06	stuartsierra	seangrove: I don't think codeq has a Java parser yet.
15:06	fowlslegs	Can someone help me understand a REPL error I am having?
15:07	seangrove	stuartsierra: Ah, good point
15:07	fowlslegs	It should be quite simple for most here I'm sure.
15:08	llasram	fowlslegs: Questions are welcome, so need for ceremony before asking :-)
15:08	llasram	s,so need,so no need,
15:08	fowlslegs	So I have this fxn: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5912118/.
15:09	llasram	Ok
15:10	fowlslegs	And when I try to use java.lang.Math methods I get this error "CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to find static field: hypot in class java.lang.Math, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:1:1)".
15:10	llasram	Oh, that's because JVM object static methods aren't Clojure functions
15:10	fowlslegs	For example, (f-values Math/hypot 5 5) gives me this.
15:10	llasram	Right. ##(class Math/hypot)
15:10	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to find static field: hypot in class java.lang.Math
15:11	llasram	That's a method, which isn't a "thing" you can pass around
15:11	llasram	You need to wrap it in a function, which can be anonymous, like (f-values #(Math/hypot %) 5 5)
15:12	llasram	Because then: ##(class #(Math/hypot %))
15:12	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method: hypot
15:12	llasram	Hah
15:12	llasram	Because then: ##(class #(Math/sqrt %))
15:12	lazybot	⇒ sandbox11278$eval15202$fn__15203
15:12	llasram	Anyway
15:12	llasram	You get the idea
15:15	fowlslegs	Hmmm maybe I need to read up on methods
15:15	fowlslegs	I don't really understand how they differ from functions.
15:16	gfredericks	they're interop things
15:16	gfredericks	has anybody written an intro-to-the-jvm-for-clojure-programmers yet?
15:16	fowlslegs	(Math/hypot 1 1) works
15:16	gfredericks	I might volunteer if not
15:16	seangrove	gfredericks: That would be wonderful
15:17	gfredericks	okay that's on my todo list
15:17	gfredericks	maybe this weekend
15:18	fowlslegs	So why does it work in this single instance, but not when I use the for macro to use it generate the third value of each vector in my lazyseq
15:18	gfredericks	fowlslegs: are you still tripping on (f-values Math/hypot 5 5)?
15:18	zerokarmaleft	gfredericks: jvm = vm internals or core libraries often used via interop?
15:19	fowlslegs	yes
15:19	gfredericks	zerokarmaleft: not vm impl -- like the object model (what are methods? interfaces? etc?), the classpath, properties...
15:20	gfredericks	suggestions welcome
15:20	gfredericks	fowlslegs: try (f-values #(Math/hypot %1 %2) 5 5)
15:22	gfredericks	also should it be a blog post or something more communal?
15:22	llasram	gfredericks: Inner classes (because it's such a commonly asked question). Probably how `.method` and `Constructor.` are builtin pseudo-macros (or whatever the official name is)
15:22	zerokarmaleft	gfredericks: that sounds more like a communal effort
15:22	zerokarmaleft	there's a lot of rabbit trails
15:22	gfredericks	should check that clojure-doc site
15:22	llasram	Maybe something on clojure-docs
15:22	llasram	clojure-doc even
15:23	llasram	Huh, which seems to be in a sadness-state right now
15:23	llasram	Oh, there already is one: http://clojure-doc.org/articles/language/interop.html
15:23	gfredericks	by which you mean it's missing its stylesheets?
15:24	llasram	And having encoding issues
15:24	gfredericks	I feel like an interop guide should be a separate thing
15:25	llasram	A separate thing from what?
15:25	gfredericks	an intro to the jvm
15:25	llasram	Ah
15:25	gfredericks	you can tell somebody "here's how you call a static method" and that's interop, but if they don't know what a static method is in the first place...
15:25	llasram	That does seem reasonable
15:25	zerokarmaleft	gfredericks: I remember handling those gaps by just shoehorning myself into java for awhile
15:25	gfredericks	I didn't have them since I had done java enough
15:26	gfredericks	zerokarmaleft: you wrote java code?
15:26	zerokarmaleft	only in an academic setting, years before I started clojure
15:26	zerokarmaleft	which is to say, not really
15:26	fowlslegs	gfredricks: thanks very much. I just read up on the #() reader form.
15:28	gfredericks	zerokarmaleft: I was referring to your "shoehorning myself into java for awhile"
15:28	gfredericks	fowlslegs: np
15:29	gfredericks	fowlslegs: equivalent would be (fn [a b] (Math/hypot a b))
15:30	ltw	Can Clojure libraries be made interoperable with Java?
15:30	zerokarmaleft	gfredericks: oh yes, I did some stuff with hadoop in java even though I knew about cascalog
15:31	konr	haha, so amazing; I managed to get our scala programmer excited about clojure just by showing my test suite :)
15:33	fowlslegs	gfredericks: So I still don't understand why. Should I read up on Java?
15:33	fowlslegs	gfredericks: So I still don't understand why. Should I read up on Java?
15:33	zerokarmaleft	gfredericks: it was more like revisiting an old language I was already familiar with and applying it to some useful albeit small scope
15:34	gfredericks	ltw: you're asking about java code calling clojure libs?
15:34	ltw	gfredericks: yeah, I want to write a library that will be called from Clojure and Java, but I want to write it in Clojure.
15:35	gfredericks	ltw: yeah you can go one of two ways depending on how easy you want to make it from the java side
15:35	gfredericks	anything you can do in clojure can be done clunkily from java via the RT class
15:35	gfredericks	so in that sense any clojure lib trivially qualifies
15:35	zerokarmaleft	fowlslegs: you can read up on Java a la carte as you run into jvm concepts that are unfamiliar
15:35	gfredericks	but you can also generate classes with methods, which makes it much cleaner from java
15:36	ltw	gfredericks: oh, like using gen-class?
15:36	gfredericks	that certainly works
15:37	gfredericks	I think I wrote a lib once for exporting a whole namespace as a java class with static methods
15:37	gfredericks	https://github.com/fredericksgary/lib-2367#export-ns
15:37	gfredericks	it uses gen-class
15:37	gfredericks	but is minimal effort
15:37	ltw	I think I'll go that way if it's reasonably non-trivial.
15:38	fowlslegs	thanks, will do
15:38	callen	Raynes: that's what you get for writing Haskell.
15:38	ToxicFrog	I'm running into something really weird with a recursively defined lazy infinite seq: http://hastebin.com/duforatapi.lisp
15:38	ltw	gfredericks: I think you've just solved the only problem I saw with the gen-class method approach.
15:38	ltw	it's a client library wrapping a service, so there was going to be many function definitions
15:38	gfredericks	my work here is done
15:39	Raynes	callen: I'm not writing Haskell. Just observing how horrible the support for it in Vim is. I mean, I can use Emacs for it, but Christ. After all these years I would have expected it to at least be able to indent Haskell half-assed.
15:39	ToxicFrog	I would expect that (0 1 2) are in the seq (because they are < 3), and then 3 and 4 should be also (because by the time it's calling (tasty? 3) it's realized the list head and discovered that is (= 0)
15:40	ToxicFrog	Instead it seems to be the case that (first tasty) is something other than 0 until it calls (tasty? 32) and then suddenly it is 0.
15:40	ToxicFrog	Is this a weird interaction with (declare)? Am I not understanding something fundmental about how lazy seqs work?
15:41	gfredericks	ToxicFrog: this is super weird
15:41	ToxicFrog	(this is 1.4.0, btw)
15:41	gfredericks	I get it in 1.5.1 too
15:42	ToxicFrog	Also I'm glad it's not just me who thinks it's weird
15:42	gfredericks	ToxicFrog: this has something to do with chunking
15:42	gfredericks	which you can tell by replacing (range) with (iterate inc 0)
15:43	ltw	is there an existing convention on how to name Clojure libraries that are interoperable with Java? (I have a Ruby library for this functionality already)
15:43	gfredericks	but I haven't figured out why that should be relevant though
15:43	Raynes	Not really, because nobody writes libraries that are interoperable with Java.
15:43	Raynes	They value their sanity.
15:43	Raynes	:p
15:43	stuartsierra	ToxicFrog, gfredericks: You're running into chunked lazy sequences there.
15:44	stuartsierra	The 32 is a giveaway.
15:44	gfredericks	stuartsierra: oh definitely
15:44	gfredericks	stuartsierra: that's what I just said -- it's just not clear why it's relevant
15:44	gfredericks	as best I can tell, the act of computing a chunk of a chunked lazy seq is calling first on itself
15:45	gfredericks	which is not throwing an exception but is instead returning something weird
15:45	ltw	Raynes: ha, I'd rather write it once in Clojure and make it interop than have to write it in Java.
15:46	ToxicFrog	Adding a (println) says that it's nil until the first 32 elements have been evaluated, then 0
15:47	gfredericks	looks like (first my-chunked-seq) is nil during the computation of the first chunk
15:47	gfredericks	oh you just found out the same thing
15:47	ToxicFrog	Is there any documentation on chunked sequences? The docs for (range) don't mention that it chunks, nor that this optimization(?) may break things.
15:47	gfredericks	ToxicFrog: yeah I'd say a self-referential chunked lazy seq is a bad idea :)
15:47	gfredericks	ToxicFrog: in general a self-referential lazy seq probably shouldn't be necessary I don't think
15:48	ToxicFrog	gfredericks: necessary, no, but it's a convenient way to write some things
15:48	ToxicFrog	(I ran into this when making a simple prime generator as practice; when testing to see if the next number is prime it's useful to be able to refer to earlier primes)
15:49	ToxicFrog	(there are undoubtedly non-toy applications for this technique)
15:49	jcromartie	there needs to be a Jekyll for Clojure…
15:49	jcromartie	this is happening
15:49	gfredericks	jcromartie: somebody was working on that a week or so ago
15:50	ToxicFrog	gfredericks: in any case it should probably be mentioned in the docs for functions that generate chunked sequences that they do so and are thus not safe for recursion.
15:51	ToxicFrog	I would not normally expect replacing (range) with (iterate inc 0) to change the results of my code.
15:52	stuartsierra	Most of the core sequence functions used chunking when possible as an optimization.
15:52	stuartsierra	s/used/use/
15:53	stuartsierra	In general, Clojure's lazy sequences make no guarantees about when a particular part of the seq is realized.
15:53	ToxicFrog	I think the underlying surprise here is that I thought it was guaranteed that (first foo) would be realized before (rest foo)
15:54	ToxicFrog	When this is not actually the case.
15:54	futile	So,
15:54	futile	the other night, I did "lein deploy", typed in my credentials, and it Just Worked™
15:54	futile	today i try again, and it gives me a confusing msg
15:54	ToxicFrog	IT seems likely that this guarantee isn't actually stated anywhere, but it's still super surprising.
15:57	futile	Ah. I really did "lein deploy clojars" last time.
15:57	futile	Works like a charm.
15:58	ToxicFrog	gfredericks, stuartsierra: to make it even more confusing, (chunked-seq? tasty) returns false in both versions
15:59	ToxicFrog	As does (chunked-seq? (take 5 tasty))
16:01	SegFaultAX	ToxicFrog: It just occured to me that I know you from #lua.
16:01	stuartsierra	chunked-seq? isn't documented, probably an internal function.
16:01	atyz	Hey all - I'm doing the following (with kormasql) https://www.refheap.com/16907 and getting an error saying I cannot use Can not issue data manipulation statements with executeQuery(). I've done some research and It would require me using executeUpdate() . Is there a way to get around this?
16:02	futile	ok
16:02	futile	nevermore 0.0.1 released, its official :)
16:02	ToxicFrog	SegFaultAX: yep
16:03	ToxicFrog	stuartsierra: anyways - is there literature on sequence chunking, which functions I should beware of, etc?
16:04	stuartsierra	ToxicFrog: Not that I'm aware of. Assume any core function which generates a sequence may use chunking.
16:04	ToxicFrog	:(
16:05	llasram	ToxicFrog: What's the actual ultimate problem?
16:05	gfredericks	he wants to use haskell-style laziness-backed self-reference
16:05	ToxicFrog	^ that
16:05	stuartsierra	Then use Haskell.
16:06	llasram	Oh. You can always explicitly unchunk your sequences
16:06	ToxicFrog	Sadly my underlying assumption that the n'th value in the seq won't be realized until after the (n-1)th value has been turns out to be false.
16:06	bbloom	ToxicFrog: decompile the problem into a lazy traversal and a state machine
16:06	bbloom	s/decompile/decompose
16:06	ToxicFrog	llasram: how? (and how did you learn about chunking?)
16:07	bbloom	if you need linear execution, just loop over a sequence and conduct your side effects in the loop
16:07	ToxicFrog	bbloom: there are no side effects.
16:07	bbloom	ToxicFrog: evaluation is a side effect
16:07	ToxicFrog	I'm just trying to compute an infinite lazy sequence where the value of later values in the sequence is an expression of values earlier in the sequence.
16:07	SegFaultAX	IIRC chunked seqs are implemented in such a way that they should be transparent.
16:08	ToxicFrog	If evaluation is a noticeable side effect your abstraction is leaking, IMO.
16:08	bbloom	ToxicFrog: this is why people complain about understanding space complexity in haskell, b/c you can get UNBOUNDED lookahead w/ laziness
16:08	llasram	ToxicFrog: I read about it in /Joy of Clojure/ very early in my Clojure-programming. /JoC/ has this function: https://www.refheap.com/16909
16:08	SegFaultAX	Should being the operative term. They exist only as a performance optimization.
16:08	ToxicFrog	SegFaultAX: the genesis of this discussion is that they are actually not; I have code that returns different values when using a chunked seq vs. a non-chunked one.
16:08	bbloom	you can achieve what you want, but you must be explicit about your buffering
16:09	SegFaultAX	ToxicFrog: Bummer :/
16:09	ToxicFrog	bbloom: I would prefer unbounded lookahead (and thus terrible performance, OOMs, etc) to getting the wrong answers quickly.
16:09	llasram	It still depends on the implementation detail that `lazy-seq` recursion is evaluated one thunk at a time, but in practice it works
16:09	ToxicFrog	llasram: thank you.
16:10	bbloom	ToxicFrog: the answer is right, your assumption about the semantics are wrong :-P if you want to achieve haskell-like semantics, you need to implement either A) fully lazy evaluation or B) a particular data structure for your use case
16:10	bbloom	this is why i'm suggesting: use a state transducer
16:11	SegFaultAX	Probably option b is easier.
16:11	llasram	ToxicFrog: Note that the docstring (which I wrote when I stole the function) isn't actually right -- it doesn't de-chunk the input seq, but returns a new seq which isn't chunked. So you wrap your input, not the seq your producing (if that wasn't obvious)
16:11	SegFaultAX	bbloom: Can you define that term?
16:11	bbloom	https://github.com/brandonbloom/transduce
16:12	llasram	oooh
16:12	ToxicFrog	bbloom: so, the objection I'm arriving at here is that chunking is an optimization that (a) does not seem to be documented outside JoC and (b) when applied can result in actual functional changes even in pure code
16:12	ToxicFrog	There is no indication which library functions produce chunked sequences, or even that chunked sequences are a thing, and if an optimization is meant to be that completely invisible it had better not change the results of code that triggers it!
16:13	SegFaultAX	bbloom: Ah, neat.
16:13	llasram	omg, bbloom, these are great
16:13	ToxicFrog	Alternately, a warning like "don't try to use self-referential lazy sequences, they will produce garbage due to internal optimizations used by clojure's lazy seq implementation" would be nice,.
16:13	bbloom	SegFaultAX: llasram: thanks!
16:14	zerokarmaleft	why is set! restricted against local vars?
16:14	bbloom	ToxicFrog: i just joined the conversation a tad late, so i need to look at your particular paste & understand the problem
16:14	llasram	ToxicFrog: The problem is that there really isn't a good way to tell when you're building a self-referential lazy-seq. If there were, I'd agree there should be a warning
16:14	SegFaultAX	bbloom: That's really useful. I'm sad to only just be learning about this library.
16:14	ToxicFrog	bbloom: http://hastebin.com/duforatapi.lisp
16:15	alandipert	zerokarmaleft: i take it you mean lexical bindings? it's because there isn't a mutable reference type (Var) behind them
16:15	ToxicFrog	bbloom: If you replace (range) with (iterate inc 0) it works.
16:15	SegFaultAX	ToxicFrog: The whole point of range chunking is that it's more efficient to generate groups of numbers rather than single values.
16:15	alandipert	zerokarmaleft: it can be achieved via macros though, see https://github.com/ztellman/proteus
16:16	SegFaultAX	If you're ok with the potential performance hit, though...
16:16	zerokarmaleft	alandipert: well, a bit more context, I'm simply trying to mutate a DOM element
16:16	bbloom	ToxicFrog: neither range nor iterate is bugged. your example is using declare to create mutual recursion but you're missing one level of indirection
16:16	ToxicFrog	SegFaultAX: which is fine. But it's a performance optimization that can change program behaviour and thus should be more visible than it is.
16:16	zerokarmaleft	e.g. (set! (.-innerHTML el) "foo")
16:16	ToxicFrog	bbloom: how/where?
16:16	alandipert	zerokarmaleft: oh, you probably want 'aset'
16:17	alandipert	(aset el "innerHTML" "foo")
16:18	ToxicFrog	What should I have done instead to avoid this? What should I have read to know I was meant to do that?
16:18	zerokarmaleft	alandipert: perfect, thanks
16:18	zerokarmaleft	odd that set! seemed to compile and run fine intermittently
16:18	bbloom	ToxicFrog: (first tasty) is going to be a constant
16:19	bbloom	or should be
16:19	llasram	ToxicFrog: I don't think there was anything official you could have read. It's come up a few times on the mailing list, but AFAIK is basically tribal knowledge
16:19	ToxicFrog	bbloom: this is just a minimal test case; in practice (first tasty) might be some more complicated expression involving, say, (take limit tasty) where limit is some function of n.
16:20	bbloom	ToxicFrog: change (first tasty) to (doto (first tasty) prn) and you'll see what's happening
16:20	bbloom	you're getting 32 nils
16:20	ToxicFrog	I already know that
16:20	bbloom	b/c (first UNDEFINED-VAR) is bad
16:21	gfredericks	bbloom: he knows what's happening he thinks it should not happen or be better documented
16:21	bbloom	if you want mutual recursion, you must define things simultaneously
16:21	bbloom	i dunno what he want's documented
16:21	gfredericks	"don't use self-referential chunked seqs"
16:21	gfredericks	and also "chunked seqs exist"
16:21	ToxicFrog	...how do I do that? Because last time I looked for "how do I do mutual recursion in clojure" the answer I got was "(define) one of the things first"
16:21	xpe	in choosing a JDK for Clojure, is there a significant difference between 7 and 8?
16:21	bbloom	no, it's don't use mutual recursion without a layer of indirection
16:21	ToxicFrog	bbloom: what gfredericks said.
16:21	xpe	or runtime?
16:21	bbloom	it's more than just chunked sequences
16:21	ToxicFrog	Ok, what layer of indirection? You keep saying I'm missing one and I'm asking what
16:22	bbloom	you're trying to evaluate tasty? while tasty is being defined
16:22	bbloom	that's undefined behavior b/c it's mutually recursive
16:22	bbloom	you need to add a delay or a fn call
16:23	bbloom	and if you do that, you'll get a stack overflow, which is precisely what your function is trying to do :-P
16:23	gfredericks	now we need documentation saying "Don't be mutually recursive because it's undefined"
16:23	gfredericks	bbloom: it works perfectly well w/o chunking
16:23	bbloom	by luck
16:23	ToxicFrog	...well, no, because by the time (tasty?) needs to evaluate part of tasty, the parts of tasty it's referring to are already realized non-recursively
16:23	bbloom	b/c of some internal order of execution
16:24	gfredericks	bbloom: if "some internal order of execution" means "evaluating lazy seqs in order one item at a time" then yeah
16:25	ToxicFrog	The first three values of tasty (0 1 2) are evaluated without any recursion; 3 onwards require evaluation only of (head tasty). It does not seem controversial that "the elements of a lazy seq are realized in order" is a reasonable assumption to make, and that the fact that this assumption is wrong should be documented.
16:25	gfredericks	for the record I don't think we should write code like this; but I think it's reasonable that he had different expectations and that this will happen to others
16:25	bbloom	i agree with that gfredericks
16:26	gfredericks	ToxicFrog: they _are_ realized in order, just some of them in parallel
16:26	ToxicFrog	Yeah, I would also be ok with the answer to "how do I do mutual recursion in clojure" being "don't", even if that is a really aggravating restriction in some cases
16:26	ToxicFrog	As long as that was actually documented somewhere.
16:26	bbloom	gfredericks: parallel == "observably simultaneously" ?
16:26	gfredericks	bbloom: I think so yes
16:26	gfredericks	bbloom: certainly I didn't mean wrt threads and such
16:27	supersym	is it me or do other ppl find defrecord a bit unwieldy as well
16:27	amalloy	ToxicFrog: that's not really true, though; the thing that's discouraged is self-recursive data structures
16:27	amalloy	mutually-recursive functions are fine, although because we lack TCO you have to be careful
16:28	ToxicFrog	gfredericks: that doesn't really count as "in order" to me; "in order" implies that, at the moment the n'th element of the sequence is realized, all prior elements have already been realized.
16:29	gfredericks	ToxicFrog: okay; definitions I guess
16:30	ToxicFrog	gfredericks: basically the assumption of mine that was violated was that s[n] will always be realized after realization of s[n-1] is complete (and thus, by implication, that a definition of s[n] that depends on s[m] where m<n is safe).
16:32	bbloom	ToxicFrog: that assumption is valid, what assumption is invalid is that the evaluation of s[n] and s[n-1] will necessarily occur at alternating locations in the stack frame
16:33	bbloom	in theory, chunking could maybe recognize and correct this
16:35	gfredericks	bbloom: but probably wouldn't if it makes it slower
16:36	bbloom	gfredericks: probably
16:36	bbloom	all this discuss, incidentally, motivates my total lack of interest in the academic obsession with non-termination
16:37	bbloom	the fact that evaluation TAKES TIME is a lie that haskell programmers wish would go away :-P
16:37	bbloom	is IS NOT a lie & that
16:37	bbloom	i failed to say that in any way that makes sense, but somebody will understand wtf i'm talking about
16:38	futile	is it a terrible idea to do (alter-meta!) on #'some-var which will be thrown away in a minute anyway?
16:40	gfredericks	you're throwing away vars?
16:41	futile	gfredericks: via (remove-ns)
16:41	futile	,(clojure.string/join "," [1 2 3])
16:41	clojurebot	"1,2,3"
16:42	futile	,(do (remove-ns 'clojure.string) (clojure.string/join "," [1 2 3]))
16:42	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.string>
16:42	futile	,(clojure.string/join "," [1 2 3])
16:42	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.string>
16:42	futile	oops
16:42	futile	,(require 'clojure.string)
16:42	clojurebot	nil
16:42	futile	,(clojure.string/join "," [1 2 3])
16:42	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.string>
16:42	futile	,(require :reload 'clojure.string)
16:42	clojurebot	nil
16:42	futile	,(clojure.string/join "," [1 2 3])
16:42	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.string>
16:47	futile	dont worry ill figure this out
16:51	futile	ok yeah i give up
16:51	futile	i broke it. im sorry.
16:52	llasram	,(do (require 'clojure.string) (clojure.string/join "," [1 2 3]))
16:52	clojurebot	"1,2,3"
16:52	futile	but.. but..
16:52	futile	i tried that, didnt i?
16:52	futile	,(clojure.string/join "," [1 2 3])
16:52	clojurebot	"1,2,3"
16:53	PuercoPop	Oi, in order to use select from enlive do I have to transform the html string into an specific representaion?
16:54	squidz	is it possible to create and use source maps now wwith clojurescript?
16:54	ToxicFrog	bbloom: what?
16:55	bbloom	ToxicFrog: what about what?
16:55	ToxicFrog	If, during evaluation of s[n], the value of s[n-1] is nil, it is not the case that s[n-1] has been realized (even if the value has been computed internally and is being buffered somewhere invisible to my code)
16:56	ToxicFrog	And I'm not sure what you mean by "alternating locations in the stack frame"
16:56	gfredericks	I also don't know what he meant by that
16:57	futile	llasram: thanks for fixing it somehow :)
16:58	llasram	Computers just like me
16:58	bbloom	it's the difference between (do (realize! s n) (observe! s n) (realize! s m) (observe! s m)) vs (do (realize! s n) (realize! s m) (observe! s n) (observe! s m))
16:58	squidz	together with lein cljsbuild i mean
16:59	bbloom	actually, it's worse than that
16:59	ToxicFrog	bbloom: except in either case (realize! s m) is called after (realize! s n) completes, and thus (observe! s n) should succeed if (realize! s m) calls it.
17:00	ToxicFrog	When, in fact, it doesn't.
17:01	bbloom	let me clarify a few things: 1) i'm not saying clojure is PERFECT here. surely it may be possible to improve this behavior to meet your expectations w/o violating anybody else's 2) i think it's perfectly reasonable for this behavior to be undefined
17:02	bbloom	now, with that said, the issue is more subtle than what i said, b/c it's really
17:02	bbloom	….
17:02	bbloom	(realize-cps! s n callback)
17:02	bbloom	or rather k for continuation
17:02	bbloom	(realize-cps! s n k)
17:02	bbloom	and when k gets called is important
17:03	bbloom	i'm saying that it's currently undefined when it gets called, you're saying there is a reasonable definition
17:05	bbloom	does that explain my comment?
17:06	ToxicFrog	Not really; I don't know realize-cps!. Documented?
17:06	bbloom	i just made it up
17:06	bbloom	that's just realize with a callback
17:06	bbloom	cps = continuation passing style
17:06	ToxicFrog	Aah
17:07	llasram	cps vs csp -- fight!
17:07	bbloom	llasram: both!
17:08	llasram	heh
17:08	bbloom	llasram: that's like saying "space vs time -- fight!"
17:08	bbloom	:-)
17:09	bbloom	ToxicFrog: make sense now?
17:10	bbloom	ToxicFrog: also, i should add… if you can write a patch that doesn't hurt perf, break anything else, and fixes this, you should submit it!
17:10	ToxicFrog	I don't feel like my brain is entirely here right now, but AIUI you're basically just saying that it is undefined in what order the elements of a lazy seq are evaluated?
17:11	bbloom	i'm saying it's undefined how sequence realization and sequence observation will be intertwined
17:12	bbloom	lazy sequences are little stateful machines that consumers take on the responsibility of executing, if unrealized
17:12	bbloom	there is no rule that says the producer can't execute the machine a little bit before passing it along
17:13	ToxicFrog	Right.
17:13	ToxicFrog	Which is exactly what's happening here: it's evaluating the first 32 elements before making the results of any of those evaluations available.
17:14	bbloom	right, and this issue is only visible b/c you're at the top level
17:14	bbloom	you would be UNABLE to write the program you write using let, b/c let doesn't allow mutual recursion, so you'd need to use letfn
17:14	bbloom	or use mutation
17:15	bbloom	letfn would require you call () to dereference the function name
17:15	bbloom	which would create infinite recursion
17:15	bbloom	which is one of two possible outcomes in your (broken) program: infinite recursion, or incorrect termination
17:15	bbloom	you got incorrect termination
17:15	ToxicFrog	It seems that this should not create infinite recursion; it will eventually hit the base case (s[n] <= 3) and terminate correctly.
17:16	bbloom	ToxicFrog: there exists some set of operation semantics for which your program will not create infinite recursion
17:16	bbloom	:-D
17:16	bbloom	def's semantics are different than promises, are different than manual use of set! are different from function calls are different from deref calls
17:17	ToxicFrog	That said, when I get home I'll rewrite this using function calls (and it won't infinitely recur)
17:17	bbloom	yeah, do that
17:17	bbloom	def is mutation
17:17	bbloom	declare, def, def == 3 mutations
17:17	bbloom	letfn will give you observably simultaneous mutations
17:17	ToxicFrog	wait wait wait, where's the third def?
17:18	bbloom	declare, defn, def
17:18	ToxicFrog	Aah.
17:18	ToxicFrog	I thought you meant three defs of tasty specifically.
17:18	bbloom	no
17:18	bbloom	letfn will make it seem like all those mutations happen simultaneously
17:18	bbloom	it acheives that by forcing an indirection on all definitions (that indirection is a function call)
17:18	ToxicFrog	Anyways, the main reason I wanted an infinite seq for this is that then it doesn't need to re-calculate earlier values repeatedly, which it will with fns.
17:19	ToxicFrog	I guess I could explicitly memoize.
17:19	bbloom	you want to write a corecursive function :-)
17:19	bbloom	http://squirrel.pl/blog/2010/07/26/corecursion-in-clojure/
17:20	ToxicFrog	I do, and thanks
17:21	mmarczyk	ToxicFrog: (defn unchunk [xs] (lazy-seq (cons (first xs) (unchunk (rest xs)))))
17:21	bbloom	my pleasure, explaining that helped me understand it too :-)
17:21	ToxicFrog	Although based on what just happened it seems like that definition of fib should explode if chunking happens to occur, so either the example is bad or I still don't understand what's going on :(
17:21	mmarczyk	ToxicFrog: if you wrap (range) in unchunk, result will be as you expect
17:21	bbloom	that's why i hang out here. teaching is a great way to learn!
17:21	mmarczyk	not that it answers all the points raised
17:22	ToxicFrog	Anyways, tests run, CLs out for review, to the bus!
17:22	bbloom	mmarczyk: you're the rrb guy, right? awesomeness! just studied that a bit yesterday
17:22	mmarczyk	bbloom: wow, cool :-)
17:23	bbloom	mmarczyk: just so i understand correctly… this would enable vectors to have efficient push/pop on both sides?
17:23	mmarczyk	bbloom: right
17:23	mmarczyk	bbloom: although I should say, regular conj (at end) will still be the "natural", fast, zero-cost option
17:23	bbloom	mmarczyk: right b/c you pay some extra cost on the left, but only if you use left push/pop, right?
17:24	mmarczyk	bbloom: whereas conj to front has a certain cost attached in that you'll end up with a less regular tree
17:24	mmarczyk	bbloom: right
17:24	bbloom	so i read the abstract, but didn't really dig into the paper
17:24	bbloom	basically reading/writing to the left (or middle, or splitting, whatever) will somehow manage to preserve amortized costs?
17:24	mmarczyk	bbloom: one of the things I've got on the roadmap is making it so the "new" ops
17:24	bbloom	ie i can't like perma-fuck-up my vectors?
17:24	mmarczyk	bbloom: do a little bit of extra work to try and return regular trees whenever possible
17:25	noncom\|2	hi, i am writing a thin wrapper for a java lib and i find myself thin-wrapping lots of getters and setters. Id it okay that all setters names are with exclamation marks? An how do you usually go about naming getters?
17:25	mmarczyk	bbloom: basically there's a limit to how much "damage" there can be, yes
17:25	bbloom	mmarczyk: and even with that damage, the constant factors should beat 2-3 finger trees?
17:26	mmarczyk	bbloom: oh absolutely
17:26	bbloom	killer.
17:26	mmarczyk	bbloom: shouldn't be slower by more than a factor of 2
17:26	mmarczyk	bbloom: paper indicates less
17:27	mmarczyk	bbloom: actually there's a tradeoff here between concat speed and loss of lookup (etc.) speed
17:27	bbloom	mmarczyk: https://github.com/brandonbloom/fipp/issues/6
17:27	mmarczyk	bbloom: a regular vector is a tree whose shape is completely determined by the lookup algorithm, with the minor tweak of having a separate tail
17:28	mmarczyk	bbloom: wow, great! thanks for the link
17:28	bbloom	mmarczyk: i only need left/right push/pop
17:28	mmarczyk	bbloom: I've been chatting with Jozef Wagner lately
17:28	bbloom	mmarczyk: don't need to thank me. thank you for creating cool stuff
17:29	lpetit	Hello, any adventurous Counterclockwise user, willing to give feedback on a new feature I've been developing recently?
17:30	bbloom	mmarczyk: i don't know Jozef Wagner
17:30	mmarczyk	bbloom: heh, I'm rather a fun of fipp and sort of wanted to write factjor myself, so glad to be reciprocally useful :-)
17:30	mmarczyk	bbloom: he's been benchmarking cljs recently
17:30	bbloom	mmarczyk: oh cool
17:30	mmarczyk	bbloom: there's a thread on the mailing list
17:31	mmarczyk	bbloom: also, there's a ticket of his in cljs jira re: arrayvectors
17:31	bbloom	mmarczyk: fipp and factjor are both part of my master plan… mwahaha
17:31	mmarczyk	bbloom: so he's done some benchmarking with 2-3 finger trees
17:31	mmarczyk	bbloom: I imagine they would be :-)
17:31	mmarczyk	bbloom: and apparently there's no contest
17:32	mmarczyk	bbloom: in fact, funny thing, core.rrb-vector is faster for conj than PV in cljs (so I'll be fixing PV in near future :-P)
17:32	bbloom	mmarczyk: killer.
17:32	mmarczyk	bbloom: that's without any unbalanced trees, but the cost in that should be a small constant factor
17:32	bbloom	mmarczyk: if jonase doesn't take a try for rrb in fipp, i'll do it
17:32	mmarczyk	bbloom: fantastic! also very happy to cooperate on this
17:33	lpetit	mmarczyk: do you envision a point in time where rrb could replace PV in clojure proper?
17:33	bbloom	mmarczyk: after that, i need to port to cljs and explore reducers vs core.async on cljs side b/c i've got a core.async branch that makes fipp multithreaded :-)
17:33	mmarczyk	bbloom: I've noticed the c.async branch, very cool :-)
17:33	bbloom	but the ioc threads variant on jvm is much slower than the reducers variant
17:33	mmarczyk	lpetit: that's possible, but actually getting comparable perf in pure Clojure is a bit of a research project ATM
17:34	mmarczyk	lpetit: part of the purpose of core.rrb-vector is to do that research, I think
17:34	lpetit	mmarczyk: okay. What's the gross constant difference for usual usages?
17:34	bbloom	mmarczyk: you mean compared to the java implementation of PV, right?
17:34	mmarczyk	bbloom: right
17:34	bbloom	mmarczyk: so gvec is slower than APersistentVector
17:34	mmarczyk	bbloom: it is
17:35	mmarczyk	bbloom: lpetit: by about a factor of 2 IIRC
17:35	bbloom	mmarczyk: but if you can get gvec == APV, then you can get RBB == APV ?
17:35	mmarczyk	bbloom: lpetit: core.rrb-vector is on a par with gvec, with an important caveat
17:35	lpetit	mmarczyk: I must confess I don't know much about gvec
17:35	mmarczyk	bbloom: lpetit: the caveat is that that's only true as long as you only use rrb vectors of objects or rrb vectors of primitives, not mixed
17:36	mmarczyk	bbloom: lpetit: I'm going to fix this one way or another... my understanding of what's going on is a bit of a conjecture at this point anyway
17:36	bbloom	and on cljs, there is no host-native-impl, only the cljs-impl, so rrb can definitely == pv, right?
17:36	mmarczyk	bbloom: lpetit: (but I'll take this opportunity to point out that jvm rrb vectors already support both objects and primitives at leaves and interoperate happily with both PV and gvec ;-))
17:36	mmarczyk	bbloom: right
17:36	bbloom	glorious
17:36	bbloom	mmarczyk: great work man
17:36	mmarczyk	bbloom: or at least with a very small extra overhead
17:36	bbloom	looking forward to developments. i'll let you know if/when i switch fipp over
17:37	mmarczyk	bbloom: well the idea and feasibility research is due to Bagwell & Rompf
17:37	mmarczyk	bbloom: I totally think they've done a great job :-)
17:37	bbloom	of course. can't forget to thank the smarty pants dudes who write the papers
17:37	mmarczyk	:-)
17:37	bbloom	i'm always glad to see citations in readmes
17:37	bbloom	i try to make it a habit
17:38	lpetit	mmarczyk: impressive
17:39	mmarczyk	bbloom: lpetit: it's important to note that in contrast to regular vectors, rrb trees' tree shape is not fully determined
17:39	mmarczyk	bbloom: lpetit: so there's room for tweaking concat speed vs. lookup & Co. speed
17:39	bbloom	mmarczyk: which is also in contrast to 2-3 trees, too...
17:39	mmarczyk	bbloom: right
17:40	mmarczyk	bbloom: lpetit: my plan is to do some extra work in slice/concat to preserve regular tree shape whenever possible (or very nearly so)
17:40	bbloom	if i only need left/right push/pop, can i do better than arbitrary splicing?
17:40	mmarczyk	bbloom: ah, so that's something which I'm planning to work on in near future
17:40	lpetit	mmarczyk, bbloom : you guys seem to know your stuff, I'm a bit lost. Anyway, that's what I like about this community, so much more to learn!
17:40	bbloom	lpetit: i didn't know SHIT about this < 1 year ago
17:41	mmarczyk	bbloom: direct impls of "prepend", "insert-at", "remove slice"
17:41	bbloom	lpetit: http://cstheory.stackexchange.com/questions/1539/whats-new-in-purely-functional-data-structures-since-okasaki
17:41	mmarczyk	bbloom: I'm totally in the market for good names for these functions, by the way
17:41	bbloom	start with Okasaki, then go to that thread :-)
17:41	callen	lpetit: yeah, Okasaki is the place to start.
17:41	mmarczyk	bbloom: hah! that's my favourite stack exchange thread ever :-)
17:41	callen	lpetit: you can derive the essentials yourself if you try to figure out how to make efficient immutable data structures without tons of copying.
17:41	arrdem	bbloom: that's an awesome thread
17:41	lpetit	bbloom: I had started once, but not knowing Standard ML was really slowing me down
17:41	bbloom	mmarczyk: i often write conjX functions for fnil things, like (def conjs (fnil conj #{}))
17:42	bbloom	mmarczyk: but left/right/push/pop would be nice to have very clearly
17:42	mmarczyk	lpetit: "I'm lost", says the a guy who built complex systems in assembly :-)
17:42	bbloom	haha
17:42	bbloom	mmarczyk: may i suggest left/right, prepend, and append?
17:42	mmarczyk	bbloom: yeah, I'd sort of like to have standardized names for these
17:43	bbloom	right == fast last
17:43	mmarczyk	bbloom: left/right access, prepend/append insertion?
17:43	bbloom	i guess left == first
17:43	bbloom	yeah
17:43	bbloom	but left/right as the protocol makes some sense
17:43	noncom\|2	in clojure how do i know if a mapping is a (def) or (defn) ??
17:43	lazybot	noncom\|2: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
17:43	mmarczyk	bbloom: yeah, sounds reasonable
17:43	mmarczyk	bbloom: still good to brainstorm a bit
17:44	mmarczyk	bbloom: also, I'd sort of like a standardized set of names
17:44	noonian	noncom\|2: defn is just sugar for def
17:44	bbloom	well i guess there are THREE things you need
17:44	mmarczyk	bbloom: for example there's a cool confluently persistent deque
17:44	bbloom	peek/pop/push
17:44	bbloom	peek/pop/push-left/right
17:44	bbloom	blargh.
17:44	mmarczyk	bbloom: I think concat there is actually constant-time
17:44	bbloom	haha
17:44	mmarczyk	:-)
17:44	noonian	noncom\|2: (defn my-fun [] ...) == (def my-fun (fn [] ...))
17:44	bbloom	ill brb in a bit
17:44	noncom\|2	noonian: yes, but maybe there is some simple way... like what is it bound to? like (instance? clojure.lang.IFn)...?
17:45	mmarczyk	ok, see you around
17:45	mmarczyk	amalloy: do I understand correctly that you like recur-to? :-)
17:45	bbloom	+1 recur-to
17:45	noonian	noncom\|2: yeah, you could probably do (fn? my-fn) to test if its a function
17:45	bbloom	ok going.. really..!
17:45	noonian	,(doc fn?)
17:45	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns true if x implements Fn, i.e. is an object created via fn."
17:46	justin_smith	,(doc ifn?)
17:46	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns true if x implements IFn. Note that many data structures (e.g. sets and maps) implement IFn"
17:46	noonian	justin_smith: nice, I didn't know about that
17:46	noncom\|2	noonian: gonna try it now..
17:46	noncom\|2	ifn seems wider than fn
17:47	justin_smith	yes, I use it to see if something can have an arg applied to it, basically
17:47	noncom\|2	yeah
17:47	noncom\|2	well, fn works for my case
17:47	ToxicFrog	noncom\|2: yeah, IFn is basically "can be called like a function", which includes many things which are not actually functions.
17:48	noncom\|2	i think this is very beautiful that we have both fn? and ifn?
17:48	noncom\|2	and why we have them
17:48	lpetit	bbloom: ok, I need one or two sabbatical years, just to read&digest okasaki + the marvelous stack exchange link with tons of undecipherable names :-)
17:50	mmarczyk	lpetit: bbloom: I'll add that IIRC slowdown with mixed object/primitive rrb vectors in single jvm image is ~3x compared to PV, ~1.5x compared to gvec; perhaps actually a bit less; that's with regular trees though, before concats
17:51	mmarczyk	but this should be fixable
17:52	noncom\|2	in clojure, is there a function to execute a function?
17:52	mmarczyk	if need be, I'll make it so different node types use different containing vector types -- actually I'll probably want to do the things required to make this less of a hassle for unrelated reasons
17:52	noncom\|2	so that i can do like (-> f EXEC)
17:52	noncom\|2	where f is fn
17:53	noncom\|2	i mean defined with fn
17:53	mmarczyk	noncom\|2: functions are callable, so you can say (.call f)
17:53	mmarczyk	noncom\|2: there's also apply, but that requires a seq of args
17:53	mmarczyk	noncom\|2: no "call" function, but you can write one: (defn call [f] (f))
17:53	noncom\|2	so (-> f .call) does it!
17:53	noncom\|2	i just checked
17:54	noonian	also (apply f [])
17:54	noncom\|2	yeah, cool!
17:54	mmarczyk	you can also say (f) ;-)
17:54	noonian	lol
17:54	lpetit	First version of Counterclockwise with "fix indentation as you type" feature is available in the "auto shift" branch
17:54	lpetit	Update Site : http://updatesite.ccw-ide.org/branch/autoshift/autoshift-travis000104-git40b4075e5c7694be23892195c18e1c27e6371037/
17:54	noncom\|2	yeah, but my point was that i cant say (-> f ())
17:54	lpetit	Standalone apps: http://updatesite.ccw-ide.org/branch/autoshift/autoshift-travis000104-git40b4075e5c7694be23892195c18e1c27e6371037/products/
17:55	noncom\|2	although i remember i was in wonder a few times in the past when realized that all i need is (f) without complications :D
17:55	mmarczyk	lpetit: awesome!
17:55	lpetit	mmarczyk: still very alpha. Feedback required !
17:56	mmarczyk	lpetit: pulling ahead of Emacs in Clojure support feels vaguely indecent ;-)
17:56	lpetit	(the standalone version can be downloaded and discarded easily ;-) )
17:56	noonian	mmarczyk: what is?
17:56	noncom\|2	lpetit: hi! is the option to enable full-blown leiningen available in the new builds?
17:57	lpetit	noncom\|2: no, I have split it into a branch, it was too unstable, and I needed more hammock time
17:57	noncom\|2	okay! i'll be waiting :)
17:57	mmarczyk	noonian: ?
17:58	noonian	mmarczyk: what is ahead of emacs for clojure support?
17:58	mmarczyk	noonian: lpetit's Counterclockwise pulling ahead in this particular area
17:59	noonian	mmarczyk: ah, cool thanks
18:01	lpetit	The first person to download and find a bug in the "fix indentation as you type" feature will get …. many thanks from me! ;-)
18:02	lpetit	Standalone version installs in a blink: http://updatesite.ccw-ide.org/branch/autoshift/autoshift-travis000104-git40b4075e5c7694be23892195c18e1c27e6371037/products/
18:04	lpetit	mmarczyk: note, it's not just calling "reindent" on each line. It's shifting all children lines of the form being pushed to the right or the left while typing, plus all its right sibling forms, plus all the right sibling forms of the parent form if the parent form's tail has been shifted along the way, etc. until reaching a line which is not shifted
18:05	lpetit	mmarczyk: so this preserves, as much as possible, manual indentation such as in 'cond
18:07	lpetit	Next on the todo list: extend this behavior after paredit commands (so that e.g. "raise over" really works as expected), and also between copy/cut/pastes inside Eclipse (requires serializing the current "column" and not just the selected text)
18:08	lpetit	mmarczyk: I think this is doable in emacs, I've seen some options to do that. But Counterclockwise's advantage is that it works with a real parse-tree: multiline strings are handled correctly, for instance
18:09	bbloom	lpetit: everybody should take a 1 to 2 year sabbatical every 10 to 15 years :-) at minimum! it's good for you
18:09	lpetit	bbloom: sure! Let's save some money then …. ;-)
18:09	bbloom	worked for me :-)
18:10	zerokarmaleft	does core.async have anything like golang's panic?
18:11	bbloom	zerokarmaleft: both JVM and JS have exceptions
18:11	bbloom	zerokarmaleft: is there something particularly interesting about panic you're looking for?
18:11	zerokarmaleft	rather, does it facilitate looking at the state of the goroutines/blocks
18:12	bbloom	i believe the state is currently opaque, short of implementation details
18:12	bbloom	tbaldridge is the man to summon :-)
18:12	zerokarmaleft	i.e. it's blocked waiting for a put! on such and such channel
18:14	bbloom	in general, you don't want to be able to query the state of channels or the little channel reading/writing machines
18:14	bbloom	doing so can lead to race conditions
18:14	bbloom	now, if i want it for debugging purposes, that's a different story
18:14	zerokarmaleft	that's precisely where I was heading mentally
18:15	zerokarmaleft	e.g. in a long-running app, how can I know whether or not I have a bunch of go blocks spinning b/c I forgot to clean them up properly
18:15	bbloom	i'd like to see some sort of tracing/logging functionality, but i don't think it makes sense to expose much else for prying into the internals
18:16	zerokarmaleft	and to debug deadlocks
18:16	bbloom	maybe some aggregate values, like metrics
18:16	bbloom	http://blog.golang.org/race-detector
18:16	zerokarmaleft	yea, something like that would be nice :D
18:16	bbloom	the core.async announcement post expressed some interest in that sort of thing
18:26	dfarmer	Hey all, I've got kind of silly practical question. Is there any way to turn off ANSI color in nrepl? I run 'lein repl' in an admittedly clunky term and every output line is preceded by "[14G[8G[15G, etc"
18:31	lpetit	Do you know a good resource to learn enough Standard ML to be able to read & understand the code examples in Okasaki?
18:32	lpetit	and/or to be able to quickly mount a dev environment to really "run" the examples? (emacs not an option : one "hill" at a time ;-))
18:33	yogert	Hey, are there any Vim users here that could offer a beginner some help in getting situated with Clojure? : )
18:33	yogert	I've been finding a lot of conflicting instructions on the web regarding how to bet integrate the repls and such
18:34	yogert	best integrate
18:35	yogert	no Vim users eh?
18:35	futile	used to be one
18:35	futile	but i got tired of having to hit so many keys just to move up a line
18:36	yogert	Heh, well im not looking to argue about the merits of your favorite editor, I'm just looking to try out clojure
18:36	futile	ah, misunderstood
18:37	futile	guys, how would you benchmark two different types of databases without writing your whole application in both?
18:37	brehaut	yogert: im not a vim user, but i understand that integration is a bit in flux there
18:37	brehaut	yogert: if you are just learning clojure, start with a lein repl and text editor seperately, rather than getting lost in an integration quagmire
18:38	futile	or just clojurebot
18:38	brehaut	ಠ_ಠ
18:38	futile	,(dotimes 3 [i] (println i))
18:38	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: dotimes requires a vector for its binding in sandbox:>
18:38	futile	oh
18:38	brehaut	how about a web based repl or private messaging the bot
18:39	futile	but then how can we show him cool ways of doing the same thing?
18:39	yogert	ok, I've never used a lisp before, but I've been told that integration with repls etc is a very attractive feature
18:39	brehaut	yogert: certainy is nice
18:39	yogert	not crucial tho?
18:39	futile	,(reduce + [1 2 3])
18:39	clojurebot	6
18:39	brehaut	not when you are starting out
18:40	futile	yogert: in terms of running programs, you can use clojure just like you use ruby
18:40	brehaut	it makes you a lot more productive when you are already productive, but its just a side show to start with
18:40	futile	or whatever
18:40	yogert	ok
18:41	futile	,(reduce + (take 3 (repeat 5)))
18:41	clojurebot	15
18:41	brehaut	yogert: if you use a lein repl, you can easily (require 'my.namespace :reload) to relaod your code
18:41	futile	thats a shortcut for (* 3 5)
18:41	brehaut	:reload-all will also reload the dependancies too
18:41	futile	yogert: yeah just `lein repl` is fun too
18:42	futile	,(reduce + (take 3 (iterate 99 dec)))
18:42	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
18:42	futile	oops
18:42	futile	,(reduce - (take 3 (iterate dec 99)))
18:42	clojurebot	-96
18:42	futile	so confusing.
18:42	yogert	okay. I should watch some videos or something demonstrating the repl integration. I honestly don't have a clue what it is exactly, just that it is great. Is the repl itself any different than GHCI or Python's?
18:42	futile	yogert: same as python's
18:43	futile	yogert: install leiningen (via homebrew or whatever) and type `lein repl` and then type (+ 1 2) in it
18:43	brehaut	Not via homebrew
18:43	yogert	just that its in your editor...
18:43	futile	brehaut: why not?
18:43	yogert	not via homebrew?
18:43	yogert	i already did
18:43	yogert	…
18:43	futile	yogert: i did too, no harm in it
18:43	yogert	osx package management sucks
18:43	brehaut	ideally you just grab the version from the lein website
18:44	futile	brehaut: thats what they all say.
18:44	brehaut	you dont need to package manage lein because it doesnt install globally
18:44	futile	(inc homebrew)
18:44	lazybot	⇒ 1
18:44	brehaut	lein manages its own updates
18:44	futile	brehaut: homebrew isnt about globally or not.
18:44	futile	brehaut: homebrew is about me not having to type boring crap in the terminal :)
18:44	justin_smith	homebrew stinks
18:44	futile	literally just `brew install leiningen` and im done.
18:44	futile	(or is it lein?)
18:44	futile	justin_smith: whats with the homebrew hate today?
18:45	brehaut	futile: stop talking out your arse; lein is simple to install without a package manager
18:45	futile	brehaut: yeah it is simple. you're right about that.
18:45	futile	but its even simpler with homebrew.
18:45	justin_smith	it is literally one file, homebrew makes it MORE complicated
18:45	justin_smith	as usual for homebrew
18:45	futile	justin_smith: it may complicate HOW its done, but not WHAT i do to install it
18:46	brehaut	futile: ease vs simplicity
18:46	futile	brehaut: yep
18:46	brehaut	artificial ease now that sacrificies simplicity is asking for problems later
18:46	futile	and in this case i like easy better.
18:46	justin_smith	compare: create ~/bin/lein vs. install homebrew and brew install $(lein \|\| leiningen whichever works)
18:47	futile	justin_smith: `brew install leiningen` and im done. to create ~/bin/lein i need to open Chrome and go find the dang file
18:47	futile	then i need to download it. how? curl, wget, or just use my browser?
18:47	futile	then i have to move it.
18:47	justin_smith	and then deal with brew when you want to update lein (vs. just letting lein autoupdate)
18:47	futile	man, just `brew install leiningen`
18:47	futile	justin_smith: not true. itll update all the same
18:48	justin_smith	nope, it fucked up my coworker's install, in the middle of a workshop he was trying to run
18:48	futile	justin_smith: all `brew install leiningen` does is downloads the same trampoline file that you would normally download manually, and puts it somewhere on your path for you
18:48	justin_smith	brew is a mess, and you don't need it for something as simple as lein
18:48	futile	oh come on, you dont have to go making everyone leave irc just cuz you disagree with me
18:49	futile	;)
18:49	noonian	homebrew may be a mess, but not using it on a mac is even messier in my experience
18:49	futile	(inc noonian)
18:49	lazybot	⇒ 1
18:50	justin_smith	noonian: my solution was to stop using my mac, and getting a system76 box
18:50	bbloom	justin_smith: all package managers are a mess, but brew is 100X more pleasant than any other mac package manager i have ever encountered
18:50	bbloom	it's perfect for "eh, i just want to try it real quick"
18:50	futile	(inc bbloom)
18:50	lazybot	⇒ 10
18:50	noonian	justin_smith: I'd just get a thinkpad but I need a mac for iOS stuff
18:50	futile	glad im not the only one who's perfectly ok with homebrew
18:51	justin_smith	noonian: I have a mac sitting on my desk, work gave it to me, I open the lid about once a week
18:51	futile	ok looks like i cant upgrade leiningen via homebrew.
18:51	futile	that does suck.
18:51	bbloom	all the other package managers should take a lesson from homebrew on how to run a project tho
18:51	bbloom	holy hell those guys rock
18:51	bbloom	`brew edit foo` is trivial & pleasant
18:51	justin_smith	and a big part of that reason is there is no non-shit package manager under macos
18:51	bbloom	and they homebrew ppl are extremely responsive to tickets
18:51	bbloom	`brew doctor` works magic
18:51	bbloom	it's a damn well run project
18:52	bbloom	they have all kinda of auto-build, CI github bot voodoo too
18:52	technomancy	homebrew's quality control leaves a lot to be desired
18:52	justin_smith	my biggest problem with brew is /usr/local is MINE and no system tool should fucking touch it, ever
18:52	justin_smith	pisses me off
18:52	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
18:52	callen	technomancy: they don't have any
18:52	futile	justin_smith: ah, you're a linux user.
18:52	futile	im not.
18:52	callen	they just axe bad formulae occasionally, that's it.
18:52	technomancy	that said, using a computer without a package manager is madness
18:52	futile	i mean in spirit of course
18:53	callen	futile: Macs have a /usr/local too.
18:53	callen	futile: which is what homebrew runs on. Macintoshes.
18:53	futile	callen: thanks for the reminder
18:53	justin_smith	futile: switched back to linux, mainly because I missed package management
18:53	justin_smith	I have an unused osx machine sitting right here
18:53	technomancy	clojurebot: macports?
18:53	clojurebot	macports is not a package manager, it's a satire about package management.
18:53	arrdem	technomancy: TIL windows is sparta.
18:53	bbloom	lol.
18:53	technomancy	clojurebot: botsnack
18:53	callen	technomancy: aye.
18:53	clojurebot	Thanks! Can I have chocolate next time
18:54	futile	its probably not perfectly accurate, but people who get upset with mac stuff often closely resemble http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/command_line_fu.png
18:55	brehaut	just what we need; more broad sweeping insults based on operating system choice. high five ◔_◔
18:55	bbloom	not to start an OS war, but i've never seen anyone succeed w/ linux+projector on the first try before
18:56	bbloom	software sucks.
18:56	bbloom	next topic!
18:56	brehaut	bbloom: operating systems are about as shit as text editors and command shells
18:56	arrdem	bbloom: .. this is a software channel
18:56	futile	yeah, i basically hate all software.
18:56	arrdem	bbloom: and yes I have succeeded with a projector on the first shot before
18:56	futile	but when i can repress it for a period, i dont mind most of it.
18:56	isaacbw	woo, koans complete
18:57	isaacbw	I don't feel enlightened, lol
18:57	bbloom	futile: knowing when and for how long to hold your nose is a key skill for programmers
18:57	futile	my colleague switched to linux for a year or so, and literally switched back to mac because of a projector problem during a talk at a user group or conference, i forget which.
18:57	futile	bbloom: +1
18:57	jkj	just know your xrandr :P
18:58	arrdem	(inc jkj)
18:58	lazybot	⇒ 1
18:58	isaacbw	ubuntu could probably use a projector plug n play
18:58	arrdem	isaacbw: you would think that, wouldn't you.
18:59	arrdem	isaacbw: as with most things ubuntu it works 85% of the time right off, but when it doesn't you're in deep
18:59	technomancy	seriously though, the whole editing x.org config files stereotype is so 2007
18:59	isaacbw	I'm not an ubuntu user, but as far as linux goes it's the closest to a "just works" experience
19:00	arrdem	isaacbw: understood and agreed, I'm just making the point that there really is no such thing as "just works"
19:00	arrdem	as far as the linux world goes at least.
19:01	noonian	I would prefer to use linux, but it always takes me a week at least to get a proper setup when I want to get a linux box working and configured to be productive with
19:01	technomancy	"just works" just comes down to "spend a bit of time researching before you buy"
19:02	brehaut	technomancy: yeah; i researched and came back with a mac and virtual box ;)
19:04	arrdem	hum.. anyone have a better DSL design than this? the general case of an ASM op is ["ADD" "EAX" "EDX"] or some such, but this gets funky when you want to use inline constants or chase pointers because you wind up with modifiers on the operands.
19:04	arrdem	The current fix is that modifiers are macros, so you pre-expand the operand into its encoding
19:04	callen	as an XMonad user, things like projectors emphatically DO NOT just work.
19:05	technomancy	callen: I don't think xmonad has anything to do with that
19:05	jkj	my solution before mac was Arch Linux. just the eeepc i was running it on was quite horrid. never got used to the keyboard and it had just 1GB of mem.
19:05	technomancy	it's just a matter of knowing which brands of video card to avoid
19:06	jkj	and do think xmonad doesn't get on your way with projectors as long as you are willing to xrandr yourself
19:06	arrdem	but that means you loose data about your instruction sequence at read time, making any subsequent (prints) or other inspection less meaningfull/symbolic
19:06	technomancy	jkj: that hasn't been my experience; on debian and ubuntu you just plug it in and it rearranges everything
19:07	technomancy	it's probably more complicated on arch; archies love to make things complicated
19:07	arrdem	technomancy: ah but at least our complicated has good wiki manuals and flat text file configs!
19:07	jkj	appreciating my mac now
19:08	jkj	but i actually liked arch. it was easy in the form of not having intrusive automation that just tries to work but ends up doing something stupid
19:09	noonian	thats how I felt after trying to get my Arch UI setup to work on Ubuntu
19:10	justin_smith	regarding linux and "just works", best to compare apples to apples (so to speak) - get a linux box, built to run linux with a distro pre-configured by the manufacturer
19:11	justin_smith	I mean imagine judging macos based on hackintosh
19:11	seangrove	nrepl really does seem nice
19:12	seangrove	I was skeptical it would be better than swank/slime, but having multiple repls, one evaling in clojure, the other in the browser, and having them communicate and seamlessly update defs... very nice
19:12	Raynes	And being able to make use of it from vim with reasonable ease is useful as well
19:13	te	it has continued to get better
19:13	seangrove	Raynes: good point
19:13	te	i was skeptical too and dragged my feet for awhile
19:13	brehaut	seangrove: isnt the canonical spec for swank 'whatever the head of cvs currently does'? its not too surprising that nrepl is better than that ;)
19:13	technomancy	it's still missing a bunch of stuff; hopefully now that nrepl.el is maintained we can move forward with new features via nrepl-discover
19:14	technomancy	(inspector, tracing, etc)
19:14	jkj	arrdem: have you tried just having ops be funs/macros themselves?
19:14	jkj	(asm/add :eax [:edx])
19:14	jkj	arrdem: which cpu or generic?
19:17	callen	technomancy: I can't even get YourKit or jvisualvm to work in Xmonad.
19:18	callen	technomancy: attaching an external display upsets Xmonad sometimes, it's usually otherwise multi-display friendly.
19:18	futile	xmonad was the one thing i liked about linux
19:18	futile	so i wrote a kind-of port for mac
19:18	futile	i mean, i tried to hit the right balance between what xmonad is and what mac allows
19:19	futile	anyone want a binary of it? im handing them out for free.
19:19	jkj	futile: sure!
19:19	futile	hold on, let me strip out the licensing code
19:24	futile	sweet, it still builds
19:25	pcarrier	is there a pmap with custom parallelization factor?
19:28	futile	jkj: ok https://www.dropbox.com/s/8dzp2irtn8ssuvy/AppGrid.zip
19:28	futile	jkj: if it doesnt load, let me know. code signing certificate crap sometimes pretends to work for me but not for others.
19:30	Derander	for anyone who remembers the moron trying to shuffle vast quantities of shit through clojure yesterday: it seems like java actually is fast enough for it
19:30	Derander	decided to implement in java in the name of stack homogeneity and it's shuffling along pretty close to as fast as gnu awk
19:30	Derander	(aka roughly 50x as fast as clojure)
19:30	Derander	this implies (to me) that I was probably doing something wrong.
19:31	jkj	futile: fuking splendid!
19:31	futile	jkj: thx
19:31	futile	jkj: i have a custom build that lets me attach random keyboard shortcuts to shell commands and stuff, but it needs polishing up. interested?
19:31	futile	btw, if anyone else wants to use this app, let me know and ill give you a link
19:32	jkj	futile: yes, very
19:32	futile	i think its jkj-approved
19:32	futile	jkj: actually do you just want the fully scriptable one?
19:32	futile	its scriptable via JS (or coffeescript)
19:33	futile	i hate it cuz im getting tired of scripting everything.
19:33	futile	i want my computer to just think for me.
19:33	jkj	futile: sure. don't mind testing either
19:34	futile	jkj: https://github.com/evanescence/zephyros
19:35	futile	im thinking of ripping out all the scripting though. only like 5 people ever liked it.
19:35	futile	not that it costs me anything to keep it, but, its just like, whats the point if only 5 people use it?
19:35	futile	i dunno anymore.
19:43	brehaut	futile: are you taking credit for zephros?
19:43	futile	brehaut: yeah, i wrote it
19:43	brehaut	not matt gemmell?
19:43	futile	not him.
19:43	futile	i think i caused too much confusion by asking him to house it for me
19:44	futile	i think ill just ask for it back.
19:46	callen	futile: you hadn't mentioned you were a cocoa dev.
19:46	futile	callen: you told me not to talk about myself!
19:46	futile	(over and over again)
19:47	callen	Usually it's blubbery self-deprecation or personal stuff. Talking about one's work is another matter.
19:48	futile	callen: noted
19:49	rebcabin	,'(reduce 'or (list true false))
19:49	clojurebot	(reduce (quote or) (list true false))
19:50	rebcabin	,(reduce 'or (list true false))
19:50	clojurebot	false
19:50	arrdem	jkj: right now it's for platform specific assemblers
19:51	arrdem	the hope is to build a macro abstraction atop them that's portable
19:51	rebcabin	,(reduce 'and (list true false))
19:51	clojurebot	false
19:51	amalloy	rebcabin: 'or and 'and are symbols, not functions
19:51	arrdem	jkj: as to making the notation fns or macros in itself I think that's the approach I settled on while driving home.
19:52	amalloy	symbols happen to also be callable as functions, but they don't do anything like what you're hoping
19:52	rebcabin	darn :)
19:53	rebcabin	i just saw someone in a video do this, and i didn't believe it then :)
19:53	rebcabin	video is by tmarble at linux australia
19:54	noonian	did it work in the video?
19:54	rebcabin	he does (reduce 'or (map even? '(1 2 3 4 5))) and purports that it works :)
19:54	noonian	,(reduce and (list true false)))
19:54	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/and, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
19:54	noonian	,(reduce and (list true false))
19:54	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/and, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
19:54	rebcabin	,(reduce 'or (map even? '(1 2 3 4 5)))
19:54	clojurebot	false
19:55	noonian	ah
19:55	rebcabin	so dunno might have been some earlier version of Clojure or a jacked version
19:55	noonian	,(ifn? 'foo)
19:55	arrdem	,(type and)
19:55	clojurebot	true
19:55	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/and, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
19:55	rebcabin	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii-ajztxALM
19:55	noonian	,(type or)
19:55	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/or, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
19:55	rebcabin	around 36:36
19:56	clojurenewb	Raynes: hi do you have time for a laser question ?
19:57	rebcabin	he's using emacs org-mode in his video, and runs other things in the live repl -- but this one he just has a repo transcript
19:57	alexgunnarson	are we talking about las3r or laser?
19:57	jkj	futile: thank you for the software. you got me hooked. these are features mac os x is really missing
19:57	futile	jkj: appreciated
19:57	futile	im getting some more apps out in a second
19:57	futile	just cleaning it up
19:58	clojurenewb	alexgunnarson: laser as far as I know
19:58	alexgunnarson	clojurenewb: okay
19:58	futile	ok, anyone else want an xmonad-like app for Mac OS X? last chance.
19:58	clojurenewb	now I am intrigued by what las3r is
19:58	rebcabin	i like monads :)
19:59	jkj	futile: everybody needs it, but not many know they do i quess :)
19:59	callen	futile: sizeup is fine.
19:59	bbloom	i prefer monoids
19:59	futile	callen: if you say so
19:59	futile	jkj: thats how i felt. i avoided sizeup/divvy/etc for a long time.
20:00	rebcabin	size up is great; "optimal layout" is pretty good too
20:00	futile	turns out, it wasnt the idea i was against, but their execution
20:00	alexgunnarson	clojurenewb: las3r is basically a clojure interface/wrapper for actionscript/flash
20:00	futile	i like AppGrid because its "composable".
20:00	futile	you just remember a few key commands, and you can do a whole lot with them
20:00	alexgunnarson	clojurenewb: it's cool but even though i love flash functionality i just hate flash player…
20:00	rebcabin	i'll take a look at app grid -- can you tell us about monad, futile?
20:01	rebcabin	xmonad rather
20:01	noonian	futile: I'll probably checkout out zephyros when I have the time
20:01	clojurenewb	alexgunnarson: yeah I don't like proprietary plugins at all really
20:01	rebcabin	something is helping my spelling i want to turn it off!
20:01	alexgunnarson	clojurenewb: me neither
20:01	futile	AppGrid is just Zephyros with a hard-coded config, so you dont have to write one
20:02	futile	i personally dont wanna write 100 lines of CoffeeScript (or JS) to configure a wm
20:02	futile	and i know some people who feel the same
20:02	futile	but i also know some people who love tinkering
20:02	futile	rebcabin: xmonad is a dead-simple tiling window manager for linux.
20:02	noonian	futile: has anyone got zephyros working with clojurescript?
20:02	futile	noonian: i tried really hard for like 2 hours, couldnt figure it out
20:02	futile	please be the first :)
20:03	noonian	futile: heh, I'll probably give it a shot but it took me a while getting it working in a simple clojure webapp so no promises :P
20:03	futile	oh nevermind then
20:03	futile	its not a high priority
20:03	futile	just would be really cool
20:03	noonian	yeah
20:03	futile	possibly not even that practical
20:03	rebcabin	anything that saves me a trip to the mouse is a win
20:04	futile	here's the source to AppGrid if you want: https://github.com/evanescence/grs
20:04	futile	\cc jkj
20:06	alexgunnarson	hey everyone - so i'm considering developing a clojure app. obviously i'd like it to be write-once-deploy-everywhere but there's no "silver bullet" in terms of platform/VM/whatever for it to be deployed on. between Clojure+JVM+JavaFX, Clojure+Flex+AIR+Flash Player, and ClojureScript+Pedestal+HTML5+CSS, I'm not really sure where to go.
20:07	alexgunnarson	everyone thinks HTML5 is the future of everything but it's way behind flash and java libraries in terms of functionality
20:07	futile	alexgunnarson: i personally just use Clojure + HTML (via Hiccup lib) + CSS (via Garden lib) + JS (via ClojurScript) and dont care how it runs, just using lein-ring
20:07	alexgunnarson	and plus the HTML5 specs haven't even been hammered out yet
20:07	futile	alexgunnarson: yeah but there are other priorities besides just functionality. like searchability and runnability
20:07	jkj	AppGrid is probably better for most users as it makes a statement how things should work and is self documenting
20:08	noonian	I'm using Clojure for the backend and HTML5 + javascript on the frontend using handlebars for templating. Wasn't ready to commit to ClojureScript
20:08	alexgunnarson	well of course i would do a website with clojurescript + HTML5
20:08	futile	jkj: i agree. some people find it too limiting but i think its just what most people really want even if they dont know it yet
20:08	alexgunnarson	but an RIA? clojurescript is not quite what i want...
20:09	alexgunnarson	futile: lein-ring does what again? async?
20:09	jkj	futile: maybe zephyros could also preconfigure itself to resemble AppGrid and have some presets bundled?
20:09	futile	alexgunnarson: magically runs your ring app for you. ring is a web server type thing.
20:09	jkj	not it's bound to repel some people as it requires configuration (minimal though) out of the box
20:09	alexgunnarson	oh. okay that makes sense
20:09	futile	well, its a spec really, i think. lein-ring uses jetty by default.
20:10	futile	jkj: i think even with a preconfiguration, its way too scary for most people.
20:10	jkj	futile: true
20:10	futile	jkj: even if it comes with its own zephyros.coffee file, itll still be like 80 lines
20:10	futile	jkj: i have another idea.
20:10	alexgunnarson	what's the idea?
20:11	futile	jkj: i was thinking of a middle-ground between zephyros and appgrid, where you can configure it within the app, using a custom interface
20:11	futile	jkj: it obviously wouldnt be as flexible as straight-up JS would be, but more flexible than appgrid.
20:11	futile	jkj: then every type of user could use it.
20:11	futile	i mean, there would be options for everyone.
20:11	alexgunnarson	well i'm not looking for an out-of-the-box thing necessarily… i'm willing to put up with coding hell
20:11	jkj	futile: true
20:11	bttf	i wrote a private function in my ring app that gets called by one of my handler functions ...the handler fn and private fn are in the same ns, but im getting errors at compile time
20:11	alexgunnarson	just as long as it gets easier
20:12	futile	alexgunnarson: sorry, this is off topic and its probably confusing you.
20:12	bttf	erros about so-and-so not a public function
20:12	futile	jkj: if you want to keep chatting about it feel free to come to #zephyros
20:12	bttf	wots the deal
20:12	alexgunnarson	futile: i'm not much of a server genius really
20:12	futile	alexgunnarson: sorry, those were two different conversations.
20:12	alexgunnarson	futile: ah okay
20:13	futile	alexgunnarson: ok about lein-ring. basically you just install lein-ring and it runs your Clojure web app for you.
20:13	futile	alexgunnarson: you wont have to deal with how it does it, it just does it.
20:13	futile	alexgunnarson: its really handy. https://github.com/weavejester/lein-ring
20:13	alexgunnarson	futile: that sounds awesome
20:14	alexgunnarson	futile: but i'm not really looking to run something in a browser… it'll be an app really
20:14	jkj	arrdem: do you have some intermedia presentation for the ops behind the notation?
20:14	alexgunnarson	futile: it might theoretically have some sort of limited functionality able to run in a browser, but that wouldn't be the focus
20:15	futile	alexgunnarson: it wouldnt run in the browser
20:15	futile	alexgunnarson: are you familiar with Rails?
20:16	alexgunnarson	futile: so when you say web app you don't mean SaaS you mean like an app that uses the web like a social app or a weather app
20:16	alexgunnarson	futile: not too familiar, no
20:16	futile	alexgunnarson: what are you familiar with?
20:16	alexgunnarson	futile: not very much - pretty much java and scheme… i'm still making inroads into clojure
20:17	futile	alexgunnarson: have you ever written any kind of website, like php or anything else?
20:17	alexgunnarson	futile: yes but i did the frontend only
20:17	alexgunnarson	futile: i never set up any servers or really messed around with the back-end
20:17	futile	alexgunnarson: oh. i ee.
20:17	futile	alexgunnarson: yeah im not sure what a good way to get started with doing that in Clojure would be.
20:17	futile	alexgunnarson: i would almost recommend getting your feet wet with Ruby on Rails
20:18	alexgunnarson	futile: why is that?
20:18	futile	alexgunnarson: pretty much every lib ive seen for clojure assumes you know all about that kind of thing.
20:19	futile	alexgunnarson: so html-generating libs assume you know all about html, etc
20:19	alexgunnarson	futile: well i know some HTML, CSS, etc. but i'm no expert yet
20:19	futile	alexgunnarson: if you arent super familiar with how http works, ring and compojure might seem a little confusing
20:19	alexgunnarson	futile: i'm really trying to determine the direction i want to go in so i can dive in to whatever solution is best
20:20	futile	alexgunnarson: ah. sorry, i got off topic again
20:20	alexgunnarson	sorry i've gotta go but keep me updated
20:20	futile	uhh
20:20	futile	ok?
20:20	clojurebot	grok is a little hard to juxt but it's the best thing ever
20:20	alexgunnarson	bye :/
20:20	futile	bye
20:47	callen	alexkira: if you want to do a web app you might want to look at Luminus.
20:49	callen	er
20:49	callen	god dammit.
21:27	yedi	best way to use bcrypt from clojure?
21:28	yedi	nvm
21:33	yedi	can someone help me understand this line: https://github.com/cemerick/friend-demo/blob/master/src/clj/cemerick/friend_demo/signup_and_redirect.clj#L77 (specifically: `{{:keys [username password confirm] :as params} :params :as req`})
21:34	yedi	i know it sets those vars to the corresponding keys in (:params req), but how exactly does the :as work
21:38	`cbp	Does anyone have a link to that blogpost "understanding clojure's persistent vector implementation", I can't seem to find it anywhere nor can I remember the author :-P
21:42	`cbp	yedi, it's destructuring a map that has a shape like {:params {:username "foo" :password "bar" :confirm "baz"}}
21:42	`cbp	:as binds the whole map
21:43	`cbp	,(let [{{:keys [a b c] :as p} :p :as r} {:p {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}}] [a b c r])
21:43	clojurebot	[1 2 3 {:p {:a 1, :c 3, :b 2}}]
21:45	`cbp	,(let [{{:keys [a b c] :as p} :p :as r} {:p {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}}] [a b c p r])
21:45	clojurebot	[1 2 3 {:a 1, :c 3, :b 2} {:p {:a 1, :c 3, :b 2}}]
22:54	futile	quiet night
22:56	brehaut	afternoon talios
22:56	talios	oh hai
22:56	brehaut	hows north of the hills
22:57	talios	grey, threatening rain
22:57	brehaut	likewise
23:01	yedi	why is the=is bcrypt fn returning different values after hashing the same thing? https://gist.github.com/yedi/9f219c53d6e5db95519c
23:01	futile	i think Clojure cant be appreciated fully until you first know C
23:02	futile	yedi: im guessing its using an algorithm that adds some randomization
23:03	callen	yedi: that's what makes bcrypt useful dude
23:03	callen	yedi: you can't store passwords with something that lets you precompute the value->hash relationship.
23:05	yedi	wait what? then how do you expect to do equivalence testing for passwords / auth when someone logs in? i though the whole point of a hashing function was quick deterministic 1 way hashing
23:06	callen	it's not that simple.
23:06	callen	yedi: http://codahale.com/how-to-safely-store-a-password/
23:06	callen	do NOT use generic hash algorithms for storing passwords.
23:06	callen	Use scrypt, bcrypt, or PBKDF2
23:07	TimMc	Aw, I missed all the fun?
23:16	yedi	ok, so callen, how do you test that a password is equivalent to a bcrypt hash? im just confused about that part
23:20	bbloom	yedi: normally, i'm all for teaching stuff and letting people make mistakes while they learn.. but security, and cryptography in general, is a different story: let somebody who knows that they are doing do it. use a well tested library for this! and if you do want to learn, then there are LOTS of good articles about this topic, b/c it's something people get wrong A LOT
23:21	bbloom	yedi: with that disclaimer out of the way...
23:21	bbloom	there are different hash functions for different use cases
23:21	bbloom	you don't want password hash functions to be super fast
23:22	bbloom	if you are trying to hash a lot of files for bulk equality testing later, then yeah! go w/ the fastest hash that fits your other needs
23:22	bbloom	but don't do that for passwords :-P
23:22	bbloom	b/c the only person bulk-testing passwords, are hackers
23:22	bbloom	if a user needs to wait an extra 1 to 100ms to login, that's no big deal b/c they do that so infrequently
23:23	yedi	ok yea i get it, but i just want to get bcrypt to work for my authenticate users function. I don't conceptually understand how to test for password = hash equality if bcrypt hashing isn't deterministic.
23:23	yedi	brb wiki
23:25	seangrove	Is bcrypt non-deterministic?
23:26	brehaut	its probably doing something like salting the phrase
23:26	brehaut	but its consistently slow
23:26	seangrove	Ah, yes
23:26	yedi	https://gist.github.com/yedi/9f219c53d6e5db95519c -- yea i feel like i'm missing something really dumb
23:26	bbloom	i am NOT AN EXPERT, but iirc, it's intentionally non-deterministic
23:26	bbloom	and you have to run a number of iterations
23:27	bbloom	and statistically, you'll get a matching hash eventually
23:27	callen	yedi: don't use friend
23:27	bbloom	but the number of iterations determines how slow it is
23:27	callen	yedi: understand what you're using.
23:27	callen	if bcrypt had predictable output for a given input, it wouldn't be useful.
23:27	futile	i just use openid and let google deal with it
23:28	bbloom	futile: i have fixed so many openid implementations, it's not even funny
23:28	seangrove	bbloom: Makes sense
23:28	bbloom	the 3 leg thing or whatever, people fuck up 2.5 legs of it :-P
23:28	futile	bbloom: yeah. im sure ive messed it up too.
23:28	futile	we all do.
23:28	futile	no such thing as security, amirite?
23:28	brehaut	yedi: im pretty sure you want to use bcrypt-verify to compare a password to a hashed password btw
23:29	brehaut	oh, my bad. the docs explicitly say to use bcyrpt-credential-fn; bcrypt-verify is just an implementation detail
23:30	brehaut	yedi: cryptography lesson one: read the docs on the library you are using ;)
23:31	bbloom	lesson 2: don't do it yourself :-P
23:31	bbloom	it's at least NON_DETERMINISTIC -ly harder than concurrency :-P
23:31	brehaut	bbloom: maybe these lessons are out of order
23:32	yedi	bbloom: know of a good library for it?
23:32	yedi	and ok, thanks guys
23:32	bbloom	shrug
23:32	brehaut	yedi: well, friend for http authentication. the stuff you linked to is already wrapping up all the internals
23:33	zRecursive	,(sqrt 10000000000)
23:33	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: sqrt in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
23:33	callen	yedi: I generally advise people against Friend unless they know pretty far ahead what they need and want.
23:34	brehaut	yedi: btw, i think cemerick has a clojure-sec mailinglist somewhere in the depths of google groups
23:35	yedi	callen: is there something you'd suggest instead? for like a user management system in a webstore
23:35	callen	yedi: if it's a simple web app, just use bcrypt and a secure cookie store for sessions.
23:36	brehaut	or, if you arent planning to use https, just dont even both with passwords
23:36	callen	you'll spend more time fighting Friend than writing your web app if you're not building something big/elaborate with a lot of auth-flow corner-cases and don't know what you're doing all that well.
23:36	brehaut	s/both/bother/
23:36	callen	Clojure noobies trying to make a web app should almost never be using Friend unless they're participating in a large enterprise migration project.
23:37	callen	how you poor bastards end up on Chas's doorstep I'll never know.
23:39	callen	yedi: actually yeah I'd like to know, what made you try to use Friend?
23:44	TimMc	bbloom: What's this about bcrypt being non-deterministic?
23:44	TimMc	That sounds entirely wrong.
23:50	callen	TimMc: deterministic with respect to hashing refers to the ability to arrive at the same hash from the same value.