#clojure – 2013-06-19

2013-06-19

00:00	puredanger	oops :)
00:06	murtaza52	thanks, that worked
00:17	futile	So...
00:17	futile	uhh
00:24	murtaza52	I have an io operation that I want to perform an another thread. No state sync/sharing is needed. Also I dont need any return value. The operation is a blocking op which will continue indefinitely. What clojure concurrency construct should I use ?
00:24	murtaza52	correction - perform in another thread.
00:26	callen	murtaza52: future? start a new process?
00:26	futile	so, uhh..
00:27	futile	ive been writing some blogs :(
00:27	futile	like this one: https://gist.github.com/evanescence/5811570
00:27	murtaza52	start a new process. The process is actually just waiting for file system events, and then performing some operation.
00:28	futile	all cuz of callen
00:31	futile	anyone know of a better blog-hosting service than gist?
00:31	callen	futile: don't put that shit on me. If I had my choice, you'd stop using this channel as a venue to talk about yourself.
00:31	futile	callen: you were all like "blogging is a good thing bla bla bla"
00:32	callen	I was far from the only one
00:32	futile	you.. were the only one who.. who believed in me...
00:32	futile	:')
00:33	callen	I don't believe in you at all
00:33	futile	callen: what? you dont think i exist!?
00:35	futile	ok fine
00:38	tomjack	futile: your blog post suggests to me that somehow I'm going to get the public API right, which is odd given that I'm so prone to getting the solution wrong
00:38	alexbaranosky1	anyone know how to access the length of an array in Clojure?
00:38	futile	tomjack: no but thats a separate problem entirely
00:38	alexbaranosky1	arrays have a .length property… but not sure how to access it
00:38	brehaut	,(.length (int-array 1 2 3))
00:38	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (3) passed to: core$int-array>
00:39	brehaut	fail
00:39	tomjack	alength
00:39	futile	tomjack: i tried to say that, if you make it generic enough, itll be good enough for the time being. at least, a lot longer than the raw solution itself would be
00:39	alexbaranosky1	thanks tomjac
00:39	mabes	does nrepl.el or perhaps, more generally, nrepl itself have an option to truncate large data structures? right now I'm working with a large map that kills my repl if I accidentally evaluate it
00:40	futile	mabes: C-c C-c to stop evaluating it, and then i just (pprint) it
00:41	mabes	hmm.. pprint is printing the entire thing too (I toggled pprint with nrepl)
00:42	futile	oh
00:42	futile	nm
00:42	tomjack	(set! print-length 10) (set! print-level 3) or whatever
00:43	mabes	tomjack: great, thanks!
00:43	tomjack	https://www.refheap.com/c0e9a0bac5e7e996fd361cc43
00:44	tomjack	(for yasnippet..)
00:48	futile	another new blog post: https://gist.github.com/evanescence/5811714
00:49	futile	this is fun
01:19	murtaza52	I have a fn which I am calling in a (future f). The fn is a blocking one, ie it listens for events and executes an action on the event. So it never actually returns back, thus the thread never terminates.
01:20	murtaza52	How do I terminate it explicitly, when my program doesnt want it any longer ?
01:24	murtaza52	futile: liked your post
01:25	bbloom	murtaza52: don't use a future. use more traditional java concurrency primitives
01:26	bbloom	murtaza52: clojure doesn't try to provide a complete concurrency story. java already has a good concurrency story, which clojure simply enhances and extends w/ a focus on immutability
01:26	bbloom	creating a thread or using an executor pool or anything like that is A-OK :-)
01:27	murtaza52	thanks bbloom: let me look up on java threads.
01:28	dnolen_	core.match 0.2.0 beta3 goin out
01:28	bbloom	murtaza52: you can also consider a clojure agent
01:29	bbloom	dnolen_: while i'm sharing papers with you. you might also like this one: http://okmij.org/ftp/papers/DDBinding.pdf
01:29	bbloom	dnolen_: discusses the interaction between dynamic binding and delimited continuations
01:29	dnolen_	bbloom: yeah I have that as well
01:29	bbloom	cool
01:30	dnolen_	bbloom: one day, I need to upgrade my foo before I understand all that
01:30	dnolen_	bbloom: supposed delimited continuations give you everything that monads do
01:30	dnolen_	supposedly
01:30	bbloom	and a whole bunch of other cool stuff too
01:31	tomjack	everything? :(
01:32	bbloom	tomjack: presumably AND MORE :-P
01:33	bbloom	tomjack: http://okmij.org/ftp/ is the place to start for delimited continuations & lots of other cool stuff
01:33	tomjack	yeah I've delved some
01:33	tomjack	is the DDBinding the one with the 'more than monads' claims?
01:34	bbloom	tomjack: no
01:34	dnolen_	tomjack: see Representing Monads by Filinski
01:34	dnolen_	http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.43.8213
01:34	bbloom	dnolen_: you beat me by 5 seconds :-)
01:35	tomjack	my ":(" is just that, presumably, we're talking about operational semantics when we say "everything that monads do"?
01:35	tomjack	that that paper is in ML makes me wonder if that's not right though
01:36	bbloom	what? ML can't have monads? :-P
01:36	brehaut	it makes sense intuitively as monads are often used for building different computation mechanisms, and continuations were used in scheme to model all the computation there
01:36	dnolen_	tomjack: that makes no sense
01:37	tomjack	to be clear, the "that" that I wonder about is my claim that we're just talking about operational semantics
01:38	tomjack	i.e. the fact that the paper is in ML seems promising
01:38	dnolen_	tomjack: vs what?
01:42	tomjack	I took the claim to mean something like "delimc is operationally as powerful as algo.monads", which would ignore the utility of monads with a typechecker. but presumably the stuff in the "representing monads" paper is typechecked... reading now
01:44	bbloom	to be clear, the delimc library isn't quite a complete implementation of delimited continuations. for one, the macros only operate lexically
01:45	dnolen_	I don't even know what means, it's not like you can verify monad laws in Haskell. You're just checking type classes.
01:45	tomjack	sure, substitute for hypothetical implementations in a hypothetical dynamic language :)
01:52	bbloom	in any case, i still think monads, while somewhat interesting, are basically goblty gook that will be a footnote on the future history of computer science :-)
01:52	bbloom	http://blog.sigfpe.com/2008/12/mother-of-all-monads.html
01:56	tomjack	hmm http://blog.melding-monads.com/2009/12/20/are-continuations-really-the-mother-of-all-monads/
02:01	tomjack	I suspect this is relevant http://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/ralf.hinze/Kan.pdf
02:01	tomjack	but I haven't managed to understand it yet :(
02:08	dnolen_	tomjack: interesting paper, good even for the citations
02:11	tomjack	btw, the B on page 2 is Logic
02:12	tomjack	(I guess that is roughly clear from the explanatory text around it, but it is exactly Logic = LogicT Identity)
02:14	tomjack	"every monad is isomorphic to a codensity monad" - so, yes, it is the mother?
02:40	tomjack	dnolen_: trying to generalize enforceable constraints https://www.refheap.com/ce433aed08b777aa628c4f039
02:40	tomjack	(def enforce-constraint-fns (atom {}))
02:40	tomjack	this makes me unhappy
02:40	tomjack	but seems like what ckanren does :(
02:46	tomjack	(alter-var-root #'enforce-constraints composeg ...) :(
03:02	borkdude	https://www.refheap.com/15904
03:06	ddellacosta	woah, haven't looked at python in a while
03:09	borkdude	I made a typo, the else if not indented correctly, which gives a surprising result
03:09	borkdude	ddellacosta there's a better way to do this in python, but I was just making an example for some sheet
03:09	ddellacosta	ah. I'm totally out of practice with Python...
03:11	tomjack	frequencies([{}]) :(
03:11	murtaza52	how do I terminate a thread. I can start it by (.start (Thread. my-fn)). I have a blocking thread which will continue indefinetely and will not return
03:11	murtaza52	Thus how do I terminate it explicitly from my code ?
04:10	samrat	this future seems to be swap!-ing an atom's value even after I cancel it: https://www.refheap.com/15905
04:10	amalloy	future-cancel is not a reliable operation, and certainly not a timely one
04:11	samrat	amalloy: what should I do instead then?
04:11	clgv	samrat: you can ensure correct behavior by querying an abort criterion in the loop. an atom with a bool would work
04:11	amalloy	any number of things. you could have the future checking some "stop" atom that you modify, so that it can shut itself down
04:11	amalloy	you could do something more sophisticated than a future, like use a java executor and submit tasks to it
04:12	amalloy	you could restructure your program so that it doesn't depend on global mutable state being influenced by multiple threads
04:16	amalloy	you could write a function like atomic-counter that produces a lazy, infinite sequence of random points and some information about them (eg, are they in a circle), and delegate to seque the inconvenience of managing the thread
04:17	samrat	amalloy: this doesn't seem to work: https://www.refheap.com/15906
04:19	clgv	samrat: that due to the loop body is wrapped in an implicit `do` and thus the code after the when is executed. wrap the `when` around the whole body and negate its test
04:20	clgv	samrat: https://www.refheap.com/15907
04:21	clgv	samrat: you could even skip the `loop` since your function has no parameters you can simply `recur` to the function
04:21	samrat	amalloy: thanks. that works
04:22	samrat	amalloy: I'll also read up on seque
04:22	loz	hi, i have a problem
04:22	amalloy	personally i like the seque approach. modeling your computation as lazy sequences is often a lot nicer in clojure
04:22	amalloy	and it's something i often don't realize i can do in a particular context
04:22	samrat	clgv: ah, sorry. anyway thanks
04:23	loz	my compiled clojurescript doesnt work, browser says "goog is not defined"
04:23	loz	i found that goog is some how related to google closure
04:23	loz	but i cant find what library do i need
04:30	Morgawr	loz: shouldn't it be included in the output of cljs? I mean, what's your optimization flag? :none :whitespace :simple or :advanced?
04:31	borkdude	is there a template which gives me ring, compojure and hiccup, but nothing more?
04:31	borkdude	and clojure of course
04:32	loz	Morgawr: i use simple now, but does what matter?
04:32	borkdude	and some convenicne like functions to start the webserver
04:33	callen	borkdude: I can show you a template that uses all of that, except clabango in the place of hiccup.
04:34	borkdude	callen luminus?
04:34	callen	borkdude: a more developed app that started as luminus
04:34	borkdude	callen I mean a leiningen template
04:35	borkdude	haha, if I type in Eclipse/CCW in the template field "luminus +hiccup" it crashes
04:36	Morgawr	loz: no, it shouldn't really. With simple optimization you're running into the google closure compiler but it's not a big deal (problems can surface with either :none or :advanced). I don't know why it's not finding the goog namespace, it's weird. What's your require code?
04:36	borkdude	hmm, it's pretty serious, eclipse doesn't even start anymore with an error msg about my workspace
04:37	callen	lol eclipse.
04:37	loz	Morgawr: should closure library come with clojurescipt? after bootstrap?
04:38	loz	Morgawr: where are two closure jars, but what about js code for client?
04:39	Morgawr	loz: I'm not 100% sure but I think it should. I mean, part of the ClojureScript core (cljs.core) use (:require goog.something)
04:39	Morgawr	when you compile your clojurescript project, everything is put inside a single .js file (unless you use :none optimization, then you'll have multiple files) and that file is placed in the output directory you chose in your leiningen project.clj
04:40	borkdude	callen yeah, it's pretty funny, although probably it's CCW to blame not to validate this field ;)
04:40	Morgawr	you just need to include that single .js file into your website as any other normal javascript script file
04:40	loz	Morgawr: the problem is i dont have leiningen project, i need to compile it by myself
04:41	Morgawr	you should really use leiningen
04:41	borkdude	ah, the "compojure-app" template by yogthos\|away is exactly what I searched
04:41	Morgawr	it's the standard way of doing things with Clojure(script), I don't know how to help without Leiningen since I've never done it without
04:41	loz	Morgawr: i just want to use clojurescript in rails
04:43	Morgawr	eh, I'm not a huge expert with the whole build process, sorry. Hopefully somebody is able to help you more
04:45	loz	my submission to clojure-dev was denied..
04:55	ddellacosta	loz: did you figure out your issues? Clojurescript does indeed include Google Closure libs so it's possible something strange is going on in your code
04:56	loz	ddellacosta: i think i dont understand what happens on cljs compiling
04:57	ddellacosta	how are you compiling/running/etc. ?
04:57	ddellacosta	using lein cljsbuild, or no?
04:57	Morgawr	he's not using leiningen
04:57	loz	i wrote cljs file, then i run cljsc to compile it
04:58	ddellacosta	okay, and does it compile okay?
04:58	loz	i get output + cljs/core.js
04:58	loz	yep
04:58	ddellacosta	but, when you load it up in a browser it breaks?
04:58	loz	yes, ReferenceError: goog is not defined
04:59	ddellacosta	hmm
04:59	loz	when i try to use closure's calcdeps.py on it, it says Exception: Duplicate provide (goog.string)
04:59	loz	do i ever need to do this?
05:00	loz	ddellacosta: i think i must mention that _just_ cljs code works ok, im trying to use dummy now
05:00	loz	dommy*
05:00	ddellacosta	oh, okay
05:00	vijaykiran	loz: http://lukevanderhart.com/2011/09/30/using-javascript-and-clojurescript.html
05:00	ddellacosta	can you put your code in a refheap or gist or something and show me?
05:00	loz	sure, wich one?)
05:00	vijaykiran	loz: see Using external libraries
05:01	loz	vijaykiran: thx, ill take a look at it
05:02	ddellacosta	vijaykiran: I'm not sure that applies to dommy, which is a CLJS lib
05:02	loz	vijaykiran: dommy is clojurescript lib
05:02	ddellacosta	(but, nice link, super useful…bookmarking)
05:02	ddellacosta	loz: I'm not sure how you would generate this without lein, I've just never done it
05:02	vijaykiran	Ah, true
05:03	vijaykiran	loz: in that case - I'd suggest using a "project" :)
05:03	vijaykiran	it will also help us reproduce your problem easily
05:03	loz	ddellacosta: my js code is simple - https://www.refheap.com/15909
05:04	loz	it compiles with dommy in classpath
05:04	loz	but results contain these "goog" objects
05:05	ddellacosta	well, goog is included by default--it's part of CLJS
05:05	Morgawr	You're using dommy macros, how do they expand? Because in ClojureScript macros are a bit delicate, you need to (:require ) all the libs/namespaces required by the macros (I think)
05:06	loz	ddellacosta: but what should i do after - where is goog are defined?
05:06	ddellacosta	goog is defined in the compiled code
05:06	ddellacosta	it is part of the namespace that is defined by default, as Clojurescript includes the goog namespace as a dependency
05:07	ddellacosta	so something is broken
05:07	loz	like
05:07	loz	goog.global = this;
05:07	loz	goog.DEBUG = true;
05:07	loz	goog.LOCALE = "en";
05:07	loz	goog.provide = function(name) ?
05:07	loz	first lines of my compiled file
05:07	ddellacosta	I'm not sure how external clojurescript dependencies are included as part of the build process outside of using leiningen's cljsbuild plugin, so I'm not sure I can help you too much
05:07	hotwoofy	anyone know if you can have a subselect inside a where clause in clojureql? for example, to calculate an aggregate in the subselect, and then use that to filter rows in another query, without executing two different queries.
05:08	ddellacosta	yes, exactly
05:08	loz	hm so why do i get undefined in browser..
05:10	loz	ddellacosta: does order of scripts including matter?
05:10	ddellacosta	loz: most definitely--you'll need to include the compiled clojurescript file first
05:11	ddellacosta	hmm, I suppose that if you build with cljsc and get no errors re: dommy, it should be fine
05:11	ddellacosta	trying proof of concept now myself
05:12	loz	some progress at least! ReferenceError: dommy is not defined
05:13	loz	ddellacosta: does cljsc include library code into resulting js?
05:13	loz	i just supposed things going so
05:13	ddellacosta	this is what I'm trying to determine--as I said, I don't know how it behaves with external CLJS libs
05:14	ddellacosta	the link that vijaykiran sent explains how to include 3rd-party JS libs however
05:18	ddellacosta	wow, I can't even get bootstrap to work...haha
05:21	ddellacosta	loz: sorry, I'm having really, really strange issues getting cljs even set up
05:21	ddellacosta	I use it entirely via lein cljsbuild these days however, so I never run into the issues you talk about
05:22	loz	you just need to run bootstrap and tweak script for classpaths :D
05:22	ddellacosta	loz: naw, it's something very strange--curl isn't...running.
05:22	ddellacosta	really not sure what is up
05:22	loz	classpaths are hardcoded, so you cant add your own, i think lein uses pure java command to compile
05:23	ddellacosta	but anyways, if you can run the cljs file without dommy, but then when you compile it in it is broken, then it seems like something may be not getting included
05:23	ddellacosta	a simple thing to check is just to open up the compiled js file and do a grep for dommy
05:23	ddellacosta	that will answer your question if that is getting compiled in or not by default
05:23	ddellacosta	I suspect it is, actually, if you don't get complaints during compilation
05:23	ddellacosta	otherwise it would throw a lot of warnings/errors
05:24	loz	i did grep, found only my calls to dommy
05:24	loz	so looks like i need to compile it too
05:24	ddellacosta	hmm
05:24	ddellacosta	okay
05:25	ddellacosta	well, it should all get compiled down to one file
05:26	ddellacosta	there is nothing here that specifies how to compile 3rd-party cljs libs in
05:26	ddellacosta	https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/wiki/Quick-Start
05:29	loz	ddellacosta: should? i just add dommy to classpath, maybe i should add it to compile files?
05:29	ddellacosta	what do you mean, add to compile files?
05:30	loz	from cljsc:
05:30	loz	# Compile a single cljs file or a directory of cljs files into a single JavaScript file.
05:30	loz	i must check it
05:30	ddellacosta	I mean, you can try compiling dommy that way
05:30	ddellacosta	I don't know what dependencies it has though
05:31	ddellacosta	I mean, this is an interesting experiment, but this is not the way that most people are compiling clojurescript
05:31	ddellacosta	so if you want to learn about how cljs compilation works, then you'll learn a lot this way I suppose, if you're willing to dig into it
05:32	ddellacosta	but if you just want this to work, then I would highly recommend setting up lein and a project
05:32	ddellacosta	it will make it much smoother
05:32	loz	i will end up with a gem for rails wich will do everything, so ppl will be able to write cljs in rails
05:35	ddellacosta	loz: good luck then. :-) All I can suggest then is to see how cljsbuild does it. https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild/blob/master/plugin/src/leiningen/cljsbuild.clj#L38
05:49	loz	ddellacosta: how do you think, is this a bug? dommy/macros is _clj_ file, instead of cljs..
05:49	loz	https://github.com/Prismatic/dommy/tree/master/src/dommy
05:52	jonasen	loz: clojurescript macros are written in clojure, not clojurescript
05:52	loz	okey then
05:53	loz	how should i include paths with spaces into classpath? can i use " or ' ?
05:53	loz	or should i?
06:55	Josh_	how do i create a directory with clojure.java.io api ?
06:56	Zamarok	Is clojure.math.numeric-tower the library everyone uses? Or is there an "official" one?
07:02	clgv	Zamarok: those github libs in the "clojure" group are the official ones
07:09	loz	wtf, compiled dommy requires goog wich is in my compiled js wich requires dommy
08:37	Zamarok	clgv: thanks
08:37	Zamarok	One more question: can a namespace include a number? Like 'my.namespace.12' for instance.
08:38	Zamarok	cause that would really help me organize things
08:41	Zamarok	ahh it can, answered my own question.. nevermind
08:51	TimMc	Zamarok: It probably will not be usable from Java.
08:59	clgv	Zamarok: numbers are fine - the dot is a problem.
09:19	xpe	Zamarok: I use the Apache Commons math libraries quite a bit
10:23	TimMc	clgv: What?
10:23	clgv	TimMc: ?
10:23	TimMc	How are dots problems?
10:23	clgv	in classnames
10:24	clgv	they are already separators in packages
10:24	TimMc	But Zamarok was asking about namespaces, not classnames.
10:25	clgv	ah he wants one to start with a number. that could be problematic...
10:25	clgv	namespaces are classes
10:25	TimMc	ish
10:25	TimMc	The last segment in a namespace becomes... 1, maybe 2 classes.
10:26	clgv	yeah actually more than one class ;)
10:26	TimMc	foo.bar.baz gets you something like baz.class and baz__init.class
10:26	futile	so, um
10:26	futile	if you start writing a blog, how/where do you tell people about it?
10:27	futile	i.e. https://gist.github.com/evanescence
10:29	clgv	a blog in gist form?
10:30	hyPiRion	futile: the easiest is probably github pages
10:30	hyPiRion	I tend to use it for documentation, but if you don't use gh-pages for that, then you get http://username.github.io which is relatively easy to remmeber
10:31	TimMc	futile: Write search-bait.
10:31	futile	TimMc: nobody will find my stuff via google
10:31	futile	hyPiRion: the problem is how/where to tell people about it, not how they're gonna get to it
10:31	hyPiRion	ah
10:31	futile	clgv: gist is awesome for writing blogs
10:31	hyPiRion	Was a bit quick there
10:31	TimMc	futile: Nonsense. Have you ever had a blog before?
10:32	futile	clgv: it has all the features i need: markdown formatting, pagination, shows snippets on the index page, etc
10:32	futile	TimMc: lots, nobody found them via google.
10:32	TimMc	:-(
10:32	hyPiRion	If you spends some time with Jekyll, you can get some pretty lush formatting and some google analytics in as well (if you're keen on that)
10:33	mikerod	Maybe this is a dumb question: If you start an nRepl server with clojure.tools.nrepl.server/start-server, is it important that you call clojure.tools.nrepl.server/stop-server before terminating the process that the was running the server?
10:33	clgv	Zamarok: namespaces starting with a numbers might cause problems. class names must not start with numbers in java. if the jvm enforces that and not only the compiler you have more than an interop problem. ;)
10:33	hyPiRion	(That's what gh-pages uses to render data)
10:33	futile	hyPiRion: yeah, although thats not as fast/easy as gist
10:33	futile	(inc gist)
10:33	lazybot	⇒ 1
10:33	hyPiRion	true
10:33	TimMc	(inc refheap)
10:33	lazybot	⇒ 1
10:34	TimMc	FIGHT
10:34	hyPiRion	oh yeah, refheap has markdown too these days
10:34	hyPiRion	well, it'd be hard to connect it into a blog of some sort
10:34	futile	right, gist has gist-preview, pagination, etc
10:35	futile	Will (inc hyPiRion) work mid-sentence?
10:35	futile	guess not
10:36	hyPiRion	Well, speaking of getting users
10:37	clgv	$karma futile
10:37	lazybot	futile has karma 2.
10:37	clgv	$karma gist
10:37	lazybot	gist has karma 1.
10:37	hyPiRion	Hacker News is a good source if you're a masochist.
10:37	futile	$help
10:37	lazybot	You're going to need to tell me what you want help with.
10:37	hyPiRion	$help karma
10:37	lazybot	hyPiRion: Checks the karma of the person you specify.
10:37	futile	anyone wanna post my blog to hackernews?
10:38	futile	i cant, im banned from it
10:38	futile	(dont ask)
10:38	hyPiRion	oh, I was just about to
10:38	hyPiRion	but okay :)
10:38	clgv	haha, ooops.
10:38	llasram	xpe: Re: you mentioning Apache Comomns Math, have you used the commons-math optimization algos from Clojure?
10:38	futile	:)
10:38	futile	any of you have experience writing lazybot plugins?
10:39	llasram	xpe: I was trying to figure them out, but it looks like they're in their third? round of back-to-back redesigns, and I couldn't figure out which interfaces were actually deprecated
10:39	hyPiRion	I am certainly sure Raynes has experience with that.
10:39	hyPiRion	It's not that difficult though, futile. Have a look at the source code and you can get a rough indication on how to do it
10:39	futile	I've been looking through existing plugins,
10:40	futile	but I can't tell if it has the ability to find text within text, like (inc hyPiRion) as a substring instead of the whole string
10:40	futile	Oh, looks like it does. Yay.
10:40	clgv	you can do ##(inc 1)
10:40	lazybot	⇒ 2
10:41	hyPiRion	have a look at how it handles double and triple question marks. like this???
10:41	lazybot	hyPiRion: Yes, 100% for sure.
10:41	clgv	should he look for such jokes??
10:41	lazybot	clgv: Definitely not.
10:42	futile	hyPiRion: oh thanks!
10:42	hyPiRion	np
10:42	clgv	I think that wont work ##(inc hyPiRion)
10:42	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: hyPiRion in this context
10:44	futile	sweet, yesno.clj helps
10:50	futile	Is there a better way to do ##(first (shuffle [1 2 3]))
10:50	lazybot	⇒ 2
10:51	futile	,(first (shuffle [1 2 3]))
10:51	clojurebot	3
10:51	futile	,(-> [1 2 3] shuffle first)
10:51	clojurebot	1
10:51	futile	meh
10:52	hyPiRion	futile: rand-nth
10:52	hyPiRion	,(rand-nth [1 2 3])
10:52	clojurebot	1
10:52	hyPiRion	,(rand-nth [1 2 3])
10:52	clojurebot	1
10:52	hyPiRion	,(rand-nth [1 2 3])
10:52	clojurebot	3
10:53	futile	,(for [_ (range 0 10)] (rand-nth [1 2 3]))
10:53	clojurebot	(2 2 3 1 1 ...)
10:53	futile	ah
10:53	hyPiRion	,(repeatedly 10 #(rand-nth [1 2 3]))
10:53	clojurebot	(1 1 3 1 3 ...)
10:54	futile	you're good at this
10:55	hyPiRion	http://clojure.org/cheatsheet is good to have
10:56	dnolen_	shakes his fist an Lein JVM opts
10:56	dnolen_	core.match is now looking as fast as I remember
10:57	Morgawr	mmm.. clojurescript question. I have a library that uses a .js file (for "low level" functions) that I have marked with :externs in my project.clj. I install this library with "lein install" and then I use it in another project, however the compiled result can't see the .js file (I assume it's not getting inside the .jar). How can I make it work?
10:58	dnolen_	ridiculously fast
10:58	futile	done.
10:58	futile	hyPiRion: ive been using that for about 9 months now :P
10:59	futile	is flatland in here? i hope i can get this lazybot plugin merged soon
10:59	hyPiRion	~flatland
10:59	clojurebot	Pardon?
11:00	vijaykiran	~seen vijaykiran
11:00	clojurebot	vijaykiran was last seen in #clojure, 0 minutes ago saying: ~seen vijaykiran
11:00	vijaykiran	~seen flatland
11:00	clojurebot	No entiendo
11:00	hyPiRion	futile: https://github.com/flatland?tab=members
11:00	futile	oh
11:01	futile	first things first, gotta figure out how pull requests work in the New Github
11:01	XPherior	Is there any way to refer to 'this' when using proxy?
11:03	clgv	XPherior: just use 'this'
11:04	XPherior	clgv: Huh, I'm not sure why I didn't expect that to work. Thanks man.
11:04	futile	hey amalloy_ can you merge https://github.com/flatland/lazybot/pull/88 ?
11:04	clgv	XPherior: because it is implicitely defined (unhiegenic macro) which is usually discouraged in clojure
11:04	Morgawr	so, nobody knows how to package a .js file with a clojurescript .jar so it can be used as part of the clojurescript library? :(
11:05	XPherior	That's also called an anaphoric macro, right, clgv?
11:05	hyPiRion	XPherior: yes, that's right
11:05	XPherior	Learning things today. :)
11:06	futile	i hope clojure will merge my lava pull request one day
11:07	clgv	futile: lava?
11:07	futile	clgv: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/pull/6
11:08	futile	all the tests still passed
11:08	clgv	futile: that wont be merged at all. you have to make a Jira ticket with a patch. to be accepted you need to have signed the CA
11:08	futile	clgv: oh! that's why they didn't merge my pull request!
11:09	hyPiRion	yeah, totally why
11:09	clgv	ah just reading it right now....
11:10	clgv	well, some people that really wanted to contribute made that wrong assumption about contributing to clojure via pull request - so I thought I should let you know...
11:13	ToBeReplaced	if i have a file (ns temp (:gen-class)) (defn -main [] (println ns) and I uberjar it and run, ns is printed as clojure.core ... how can i get #<Namespace temp>?
11:14	Morgawr	dnolen_: when I create a .jar for a clojurescript library (with lein install), does it package the .js files I add with :libs too? Because I have :libs ["pathto/myfile.js"] but when I require the correct namespace (I used goog.provide() in the JS file) from the project that uses that library, it says it can't find it
11:14	ToBeReplaced	i think i'm asking; how can i get the name of the class that we are calling the -main of?
11:14	clgv	ToBeReplaced: (the-ns 'temp) should work
11:14	hyPiRion	ToBeReplaced: Humm, try out (def my-ns ns) and (println my-ns) instead. ns is a dynamic var, so it's changing at runtime
11:15	Morgawr	like, I have ProjectA is a library using fileB.js and I install ProjectA as .jar to be used by ProjectC but ProjectC can't see fileB.js (or its namespace)
11:18	ToBeReplaced	hyPiRion: yes that works; any thought if i need only the name ("temp") instead of the namespace? I have a function that would be useful for individual apps as their main, but it needs to be able to get or recover the name of the application if none is passed in
11:20	ToBeReplaced	ex. (defn -main (template-main)).. template-main may need a name for reporting, ex. (-> ns ns-name name), but that won't work for the obv reasons
11:21	hyPiRion	ToBeReplaced: I'm not sure if there's any way except (def my-ns-name (-> ns ns-name name)). I haven't been using namespaces in creative ways really, I just know the basics of how they work.
11:22	ToBeReplaced	hyPiRion: cheers, thanks
11:22	hyPiRion	As in, I'm 100% sure there are solutions, but I don't know which one is the most idiomatic/best.
11:22	hyPiRion	np
11:24	llasram	ToBeReplaced, hyPiRion: if you dig into the implementation of tools.logging, it preserves the namespace for each logging invocation so that it can emit it in log messaages
11:24	llasram	(spoiler alert: the solution is macros)
11:25	clgv	yeah you capture the namespace at macroexpansion time as well
11:25	clgv	+can
11:37	Morgawr	I feel like I am missing a step here, I can't figure out how to ship a .js file included to a clojurescript .jar
11:42	clgv	Morgawr: might the treatment of js-files by leiningen be similar to the one of native dependencies?
11:43	dnolen_	Morgawr: dunno, never package CLJS with lein
11:43	dnolen_	Morgawr: I rarely know the answer to such questions since I mostly hack on the compiler
11:43	Raynes	futile: wat
11:43	Raynes	It's too early for pings.
11:44	Morgawr	I see
11:44	Morgawr	it's just that it seems that the .js file is forgotten when adding everything inside a .jar
11:45	Raynes	futile: lol
11:45	Raynes	futile: This would be far too annoying to actually use, but lol, nice work.
11:46	dnolen_	Morgawr: if no one answers here ask on the ClojureScript google group, tons of people there who probably know the answer better than I.
11:46	Morgawr	dnolen_: alright, thanks. I'll keep looking and testing
11:48	Raynes	There are things dnolen_ does not know?
11:48	Raynes	My whole life has to be restructured now. :(
11:49	futile	Raynes: what if i made it have to have a prefix of the word "good"?
11:49	futile	Raynes: ie "good morning" would trigger it but "yesterday morning we..." wouldnt
11:50	Raynes	Maaaaaaaaaybe.
11:50	Raynes	I'll see what amalloy_ thinks when he gets into work. He's usually likes this kind of stuff.
11:51	Raynes	Jesus, I'm shaking like scared puppy.
11:51	Raynes	Freezing to death and I'm not even that cold.
11:51	Raynes	I hate mornings.
11:51	futile	,(for [msg ["good morning" "yesterday morning we fixed a bug" "good evening everyone" "the evening is boring"]] (re-find #"(?i)\bgood\b (morning\|afternoon\|evening\|night\|day)\b" msg))
11:51	clojurebot	(["good morning" "morning"] nil ["good evening" "evening"] nil)
11:53	hyPiRion	Raynes: Oh hey, with Instaparse we could probably make lazybot even more sentient
11:53	Raynes	Have at it. I want him to make me breakfast.
11:53	futile	Raynes, amalloy_: updated the pull request to require "good " before the thing
11:54	Raynes	I really need a space heater.
11:54	hyPiRion	Raynes: man, it sounds like you're living in Norway
11:54	Raynes	Or to never get up at 8AM ever again.
11:54	Raynes	$conditions 90025
11:54	lazybot	Last Updated on June 19, 8:49 AM PDT; Scattered Clouds; Dewpoint: 59 F (15 C); Precipitation today: 0.00 in (0 mm); Temperature: 65.4 F (18.6 C); Windchill: NA; Wind speed: 5.0mph; Wind gust: 0mph; URL: http://www.wunderground.com/US/CA/West_Los_Angeles.html.
11:54	futile	$conditions 60098
11:54	lazybot	Last Updated on June 19, 10:43 AM CDT; Clear; Dewpoint: 54 F (12 C); Precipitation today: 0.00 in (0 mm); Temperature: 70.9 F (21.6 C); Windchill: NA; Wind speed: 2.0mph; Wind gust: 10.0mph; URL: http://www.wunderground.com/US/IL/Woodstock.html.
11:55	Raynes	Yeah, it isn't even cold. It's just that when I wake up early I always freeze to death. No clue why. I don't think it has ever mattered what the temperature is.
11:55	futile	Raynes: you might be dead?
11:55	Raynes	It's a distinct possibility.
11:55	futile	sixth-sense style
11:55	hyPiRion	futile: that wouldn't explain the shaking though
11:56	futile	hyPiRion: yeah it would, dont ghosts shiver and quiver and stuff?
11:56	Raynes	Also this passing through walls stuff that has been getting on my nerves lately.
11:56	hyPiRion	I hate when that happens.
11:56	futile	lol
11:56	futile	ok back to work. bye
11:56	Raynes	Goodbye.
11:57	futile	when i look at Rails stacktraces.. i wonder "what the heck were these guys doing? this is way too many abstractions"
11:57	gzmask	.(doc set!)
11:58	futile	when i look at Clojure + ring + compojure stacktraces im like "oh right, thats pretty much all my code. sweet."
11:58	gzmask	,(doc set!)
11:58	clojurebot	Pardon?
11:58	hyPiRion	$doc set!
11:58	futile	,set!
11:58	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: set! in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
11:58	gzmask	I guess it's clojurescript lol
11:58	gfredericks	&(doc set!)
11:58	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! set! is bad!
11:58	gfredericks	alarm! set! is bad!
11:59	futile	haha
11:59	technomancy	...and you should feel bad
12:00	Raynes	technomancy: Dear God, why did I never think of adding that to the error message?
12:00	futile	oh wow, i recognize those names: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2011-04-08.html
12:00	clgv	$conditions 10838
12:00	lazybot	Location not found.
12:00	futile	wow, i made that joke 2 years ago?
12:00	futile	(clojure -> lava)
12:01	Raynes	futile: Why are you claiming it now? :o
12:01	futile	cuz its me?
12:01	Raynes	WHERE'S YOUR PRUF
12:01	futile	look at the name "steven degutis" in https://github.com/clojure/clojure/pull/6/commits
12:01	futile	in every commit
12:02	Raynes	Your name is Steven Degutis?
12:02	futile	yes. look at https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/clojure/AdSrnNe_anw
12:02	futile	see it there too
12:02	clgv	Raynes: where do you get the code for "$conditions" from on that website?
12:02	Raynes	Gonna need to see a driver's license.
12:02	technomancy	how did that pull request get closed twice?
12:02	futile	technomancy: magic
12:02	futile	hmm, that is weird
12:02	Raynes	clgv: Where do i get the code for it?
12:02	Raynes	I got it from my brain.
12:03	clgv	Raynes: I searched my city their - but I dont know where the code might be listed on the result page...
12:03	futile	Raynes: i also wrote zephyros https://github.com/mattgemmell/zephyros/commits/master
12:03	Raynes	clgv: You mean the number I used?
12:03	clgv	Raynes: yeah
12:03	Raynes	That's a zip code.
12:03	Raynes	Postal code.
12:03	clgv	$conditions D-89073
12:03	lazybot	Location not found.
12:03	futile	which was based on appgrid: https://github.com/biohazardffm/grs/tree/master/AppGrid
12:04	Raynes	It's weird about non-US places.
12:04	Raynes	I'll be back shortly. Gotta head out. Buddy is picking me up soon.
12:04	clgv	$condition Ulm, Germany
12:04	hyPiRion	clgv: you forgot an s
12:04	clgv	$conditions Ulm, Germany
12:04	lazybot	Last Updated on June 19, 5:55 PM CEST; Mostly Cloudy; Dewpoint: 63 F (17 C); Precipitation today: 0.00 in (0 mm); Temperature: 90.2 F (32.3 C); Windchill: NA; Wind speed: 0.0mph; Wind gust: 0mph; URL: http://www.wunderground.com/global/stations/10838.html.
12:05	tomjack	wow :(
12:05	clgv	ah thats it^^
12:05	hyPiRion	man
12:05	clgv	roasting in my office. someone please turn me ^^
12:06	futile	time to put on my UX hat
12:06	charliekilo	$conditions Pearl City, Hawaii
12:06	lazybot	Location not found.
12:06	charliekilo	$conditions Pearl City, USA
12:06	lazybot	Location not found.
12:07	charliekilo	$conditions Maui, USA
12:07	lazybot	Last Updated on June 19, 5:36 AM HST; Clear; Dewpoint: NA; Precipitation today: -999.00 in (-25375 mm); Temperature: 74 F (23.3 C); Windchill: NA; Wind speed: 6mph; Wind gust: 9.0mph; URL: http://www.wunderground.com/US/HI/Maui.html.
12:07	hyPiRion	wow, -25375 mm rain is low
12:09	gtrak	sounds REALLY dry, hope they're ok
12:09	dignati	Hi there, Im a little bit struggling to process a coll right now. Mainly I need to map an apply call. Is there some function or macro already doing this?
12:09	gtrak	map an apply?
12:09	Morgawr	don't want to spam, but I posted my question in the ClojureScript google group: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/clojurescript/EXqcjyRbALc in case anyone feels like helping out ;)
12:10	hyPiRion	dignati: ##(map #(apply + %) [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9]]) ?
12:10	lazybot	⇒ (6 15 24)
12:10	dignati	gtrak: Yeah, like (map #(apply fun %) coll)
12:11	gtrak	where each item in the coll is args for fun?
12:11	dignati	hyPiRion: Okay, I did that. just wanted to ask if there is already a function in clojure.core doing that
12:11	dignati	gtrak: exactly like hyPiRion showed
12:11	gtrak	partial apply fun?
12:12	gtrak	saves a classdef
12:12	hyPiRion	gtrak: it's slower though. Not that any of these things usually matter.
12:12	gtrak	like: ##(map (parital apply +) [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9]])
12:12	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: parital in this context
12:12	gtrak	like: ##(map (partial apply +) [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9]])
12:12	lazybot	⇒ (6 15 24)
12:13	gtrak	slower?
12:13	hyPiRion	yeah
12:13	gtrak	why?
12:13	clojurebot	why not?
12:14	hyPiRion	$source partial
12:14	lazybot	partial is http://is.gd/buxpVi
12:14	gtrak	hyPiRion: 3 args or less should be just as fast
12:14	gtrak	i can see the concat mattering
12:15	hyPiRion	I have usually considered it slower, and that's what I've registered too
12:15	gtrak	hrm
12:15	hyPiRion	That's biased though, but I feel pretty sure it is, as it's varags vs constant arg size.
12:16	gtrak	yea... dunno. function-literal instantiation vs a single dynamic call should be negligible
12:16	hyPiRion	(partial apply +) => (fn [& args] (apply apply + args)) vs (fn [%] (apply + %))
12:16	Morgawr	yeah, calling apply to call apply seems a bit redundant, the syntax doesn't change much from map #() and map (partial ..), might as well go with the one that performs faster (at least theoretically, benchamrking may be necessary to prove anything)
12:17	gtrak	ah, you're concerned with the arglist seq
12:17	kittylyst	Are any of the Monger developers online?
12:17	kittylyst	I have a question about repsets
12:19	futile	,()
12:19	clojurebot	()
12:19	futile	,(())
12:19	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList$EmptyList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
12:19	futile	,[()()]
12:19	clojurebot	[() ()]
12:19	futile	!
12:20	futile	Johnny Five!!!
12:23	futile	So regarding writing a website that doesn't work very well with JS disabled:
12:24	futile	it seems like the only people who have JS disabled are self-important know-it-alls who think they're smarter than everyone else anyway, right?
12:24	futile	So they're gonna hate my site regardless, even if I have JS enabled, because something is sure to be done wrong.
12:24	futile	i.e. maybe I didn't fully conform to XHTML5-transitional with CSS3 for Opera or something
12:25	gtrak	futile: just use flash
12:27	TimMc	futile: No, there are plenty of other people who will hate you. Suck it up and code it right.
12:27	TimMc	Graceful fallbacks aren't that hard to write.
12:28	TimMc	Or yeah, go whole hog and use FutureSplash.
12:28	gtrak	'graceful' he says.. this is the internet
12:28	TimMc	It's all relative.
12:29	ToxicFrog	If you use Flash, I will hold you down while everyone who uses a screen-reader, netbook, or 64-bit OS makes you gargle chainsaws
12:29	hyPiRion	Graceful fallbacks are a relative term.
12:29	futile	i can do graceful
12:29	hyPiRion	is*
12:29	TimMc	>_>
12:29	gtrak	the best I can hope for non-surprising and maybe neatr.
12:29	gtrak	neat*
12:29	hyPiRion	But according to google analytics, 100% of the people visiting my site uses JS, so I don't have to consider fallbacks :)
12:30	TimMc	hyPiRion: :-P
12:30	TimMc	"No one has yet complained about our sealed-shut suggestion box!"
12:30	hyPiRion	Well
12:31	hyPiRion	I don't use JS for anything else than analytics
12:31	ohpauleez	TimMc: Ha!
12:31	ohpauleez	:)
12:31	TimMc	futile: Quick list of problems with JS-only: Accessibility, search engines, broken JS code, other devs, people using NoScript (for privacy and security)...
12:31	TimMc	futile: Unless you're writing http://fuckyeahpsychedeliccats.tumblr.com/ in which case go to town.
12:34	gtrak	the only thing accessible about that site is me considering the location of their shrooms.
12:37	ckoch786	Anyone know if it is possible to run a repl on a running jvm and manipulate objects like you would in a debugger?
12:37	gtrak	ckoch786: yes, I do it all the time
12:37	gtrak	or do you mean embedding into a java app? I've done that too, a spring WAR thing
12:38	ckoch786	yeah I want to embedded it so I can manipulate data on the fly
12:38	gtrak	ckoch786: something somewhere needs to start up an nrepl server, in my case I created a servlet-listener to do the job
12:38	supersym	if I'd want to find all occurences where a function is used (in a lein project), including the file and line number, what would be a good method? Do I reflect, or use a package hooked to OS and grep?
12:38	ckoch786	can you point me to some examples/docs
12:39	ckoch786	can I embed it into java apps?
12:40	gtrak	ckoch786: looking through old gists, but here's a starting point: https://github.com/clojure/tools.nrepl/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/nrepl/server.clj
12:40	gtrak	ckoch786: you'll need to gen-class something for java to see, or use the clojure runtime directly to resolve vars.
12:41	gtrak	ckoch786: this is how I did it with swank a long time ago: https://gist.github.com/gtrak/3122677
12:42	gtrak	nrepl won't be much different
12:42	justin_smith	supersym: grep / find users is one thing, but what about finding cases where the function is captured by a closure with a different name and that closure is accessed elsewhere?
12:42	ckoch786	gtrak, thanks
12:45	gtrak	binding the servlet-context to a namespace var gave me an entry point into the java app, in my case, I replaced some spring beans with clojure versions (using reify and such) that caught stuff flowing through and let me play with it.
12:48	rasmusto_	gtrak: fresh spring bean salad
12:48	ParahSailin	hm, trying to import a jar file-- im putting it in the classpath but it's not finding it when i import
12:49	gtrak	import... a jar file... cannot parse
12:50	ParahSailin	import a class from a jar file...
12:50	akells`	I'm writing an HTTP server for learning purposes. I'm at the point where I would need to be saving POST data. Do atoms seem like a proper way to try to handle storing that data?
12:50	ParahSailin	you guys dont get to be so pedantic about typing
12:51	gtrak	akells`: atoms are about mutation, you'll need some sort of data structure?
12:51	akells`	gtrak: yeah, I'm in need of some sort of data structure. any suggestions?
12:52	akells`	gtrak: I threw together something with atoms very ignorantly, and its looking like I was wrong to think they'd do what I want
12:52	gtrak	not sure, I glanced at Grizzly at one point, I think there's some map of nio selectors to request-threads somewhere
12:53	tomjack	akells`: I don't think you've told us what you want
12:53	akells`	well I appreciate the input
12:53	akells`	tomjack: sorry. I want a way to store some data that I'm receiving through a POST request, so that I can then serve that data up again
12:54	tomjack	'store' as in durably? if the web server gets killed and restarted, you still want the data around?
12:54	akells`	I've parsed the POST request and have a hash-map now that contains all of the POSTed data. if the server its killed, the data can go away
12:55	ParahSailin	does clojure handle overloaded constructors from a java class file?
12:56	gtrak	ParahSailin: not really, you should cast the args
12:56	gtrak	cast... I mean coerce I guess
12:56	tomjack	akells`: ah, ok. atom sounds good to me
12:57	gtrak	selecting a constructor via reflection can get ambiguous, I had a bug from this
12:58	akells`	tomjack: okay. would you mind taking a peek at this bit of code I've written? https://code.stypi.com/hxk1rpqs
12:59	tomjack	that's rather odd
13:00	akells`	I must admit I wrote it while not knowing very much at all about atoms
13:00	tomjack	if they storage map maps data -> data, you have to already know the data to get the data out
13:00	tomjack	which makes it kinda useless
13:00	tomjack	the other thing is, yeah, you're abusing atoms
13:00	gtrak	not useless, it makes it act like a set :-), but probably not what he wants
13:01	tomjack	you can't @ and then use this in a swap!/reset!
13:01	tomjack	and you can't try to do a swap! and then a reset! and expect it to be atomic
13:01	tomjack	post-data and put-data should both just be a single swap!
13:03	tomjack	example there for post-data
13:03	XPherior	I've always wondered about this.. (def x (agent nil)) (send x #(println "Hey"))
13:03	XPherior	Where's the output go from nrepl? I'd expect inside the repl
13:03	akells`	thanks tomjack. so the @ is unnecessary in this case?
13:04	supersym	justin_smith: thats not really an issue I think, mostly would use them for their side-effects... to be more concrete, I was looking for a bit more advanced (todo ...) than just ;; TODO stuff
13:04	supersym	anyway I just realized I can use meta-data... that has the info I'd need
13:04	tomjack	put-data is going to be like (swap! storage-map (fn [storage] (-> storage (dissoc previous-data) (assoc new-data new-data))))
13:04	tomjack	(just noticed #(merge % {new-data new-data}) is just #(assoc % new-data new-data))
13:05	CaptainLex	How would I go about having a macro take branches based on the prefix of a variable name?
13:05	tomjack	it's not really that the @ is unnecessary (it is), it's actually wrong
13:05	akells`	oh, okay
13:05	tomjack	if you @ and then use the result to swap!/reset!, the atom may have changed since you @, breaking atomicity
13:05	gtrak	CaptainLex: (case prefix ...)?
13:05	tomjack	only a single swap! or reset! will be atomic
13:06	dnolen_	CaptainLex: convert the symbol to a string and use a regex + some conditional as suggested by gtrak
13:06	tomjack	the fn passed to swap! gets the current value of the atom as an arg, which you can use instead of @
13:06	futile	woot, UXing like a pro
13:06	tomjack	something like that
13:06	CaptainLex	dnolen_ and gtrak: Thank you!
13:07	tomjack	to me it would seem to make more sense to use a separate key
13:07	akells`	I see tomjack
13:08	ParahSailin	is there a better repl? im using jline but i have to mentally keep track of backspaces if i make a mistake
13:08	hyPiRion	ParahSailin: are you using `lein repl`
13:08	hyPiRion	?
13:08	akells`	thank you so much tomjack, you've set me on a good path. it is much appreciated
13:08	tomjack	not sure how you plan to use these though
13:09	ParahSailin	leiningen?
13:09	clojurebot	http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen
13:09	hyPiRion	ParahSailin: Yeah, the repl which is bundled with leiningen.
13:10	hyPiRion	Are you using Leiningen by the way?
13:10	ParahSailin	ah, i was just using java -cp
13:10	tomjack	akells`: e.g. could be that an atom is not what you want after all :), hard to say without knowing what you're really trying to do. if you're basically using it as an in-memory database, I think it makes sense
13:13	futile	(let [children (for [child-key (:child-keys parent)] (find-by-key child-key)] ...)
13:13	futile	O postgres, how I long for thee.
13:15	tomjack	s/in-memory database/in-memory kvstore/
13:16	futile	tomjack: (i wasn't responding to you btw, in case you thought so)
13:19	ParahSailin	is there a better way to hack a jar file into the -classpath of lein repl than manually grabbing the actual java command and editing it?
13:20	gtrak	yes, install it in your local maven repo and add a dependency to project.clj
13:20	Raynes	cemerick: You need to get off the JS, man.
13:20	Raynes	I know some great rehab facilities if you ever want to get clean.
13:21	TimMc	~repeatability
13:21	clojurebot	repeatability is crucial for builds, see https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/wiki/Repeatability
13:21	TimMc	ParahSailin: ^
13:29	futile	Any of you guys use Clojure + ClojureScript in the same webapp?
13:30	futile	I'm thinking this will go well with ajax to make a site very neat.
13:30	dnolen_	futile: lots of folks do that
13:30	futile	(well not ajax, acljsj really)
13:31	futile	dnolen_: oh wait this is a mailing list question
13:31	futile	sorry
13:31	Raynes	futile: I've considered it for refheap
13:31	Raynes	But I can't justify moving the reasonably trivial javascript over to clojurescript.
13:32	Raynes	And adding a compilation step
13:32	ParahSailin	ok, having trouble make it use the correct overloaded constructor now
13:32	futile	I'm mostly wondering about how you usually set it up, like if you just have a normal Clojure project that happens to have a small Cljs section too, or if they're two separate projects, or what
13:32	dnolen_	futile: not specific enough to be mailing list question ;)
13:32	futile	ParahSailin: HA! nice name!
13:33	futile	dnolen_: maybe I should just try doing the clojurescript-getting-started guide first
13:33	futile	then i can find out what my questions really are
13:33	dnolen_	futile: probably
13:33	futile	thx dnolen_
13:33	futile	(inc dnolen_)
13:33	lazybot	⇒ 1
13:33	futile	$karma dnolen
13:33	lazybot	dnolen has karma 9.
13:33	futile	o
13:33	futile	meh not my problem
13:36	Raynes	(inc dnolen)
13:36	lazybot	⇒ 10
13:36	Raynes	futile: He doesn't actually have to be here.
13:36	futile	(dec dnolen_)
13:36	lazybot	⇒ 0
13:36	Raynes	(inc ilikecherrypieandghostpeppers)
13:36	lazybot	⇒ 1
13:36	futile	all fixed
13:36	futile	Raynes: no i get it dont worry
13:36	futile	Raynes: merge plz kthx
13:37	Raynes	futile: Alan isn't here yet.
13:37	futile	o rite
13:37	futile	sorry forgot
13:37	futile	well not really but thats the shorter answer
13:37	Raynes	Within 2 hours he'll be here and I can solicit advice.
13:37	futile	meh no rush
13:37	bbloom	SegFaultAX: my semver rant as promised: http://www.brandonbloom.name/blog/2013/06/19/semver/
13:39	jweiss	is there a lib where i can emit valid html just like clojure.data.xml?
13:39	Raynes	jweiss: hickory
13:39	bbloom	Raynes: heh. aw /me hugs back. is that an approval of my point of view? :-P
13:39	Raynes	bbloom: I saw "semver" and "rant" in the same sentence.
13:40	bbloom	Raynes: heh, that sums it up
13:40	futile	enough commas already bbloom
13:40	technomancy	bbloom: isn't semver a classic Postel's Law thing?
13:40	futile	"Sadly, this is rarely, if ever, true." - I was taught to write this way in college but now I find it really hard to read, /cc bbloom
13:41	Raynes	bbloom: guarentees is not a word, fwiw.
13:41	Raynes	I hate that word so much.
13:41	Raynes	I can never remember how to spell it.
13:41	tomjack	bbloom: what's the thesis?
13:41	futile	"Sadly, it's never true. Well okay maybe sometimes."
13:41	futile	That's how I'd do it :D
13:41	bbloom	Raynes: whoops. did spell check but forgot to commit/push it!
13:42	tomjack	I think I agree with everything you said but it doesn't seem to change how I feel about semver
13:42	bbloom	futile: i'm not you :-P
13:42	Raynes	I, disagree, futile. More, commas, are, better.
13:42	futile	bbloom: it's not about me or you though.. it's about a virus, a writing style that everyone thinks is professional and fancy but is really just hard to read.
13:43	bbloom	technomancy: how does postel's law apply here?
13:43	futile	But everyone emulates it anyway because that's how they read smart people writing, and they want to sound smart, so it spreads like wildfire.
13:44	bbloom	futile: is that the only sentence you have a problem with in my post? informal speech/tone generally involves a lot of commas…..
13:44	futile	bbloom: "However, statistically speaking, ..."
13:45	bbloom	shrug ok, i'll consider/analyze my comma usage in the future, just, for, you, buddy
13:45	TimMc	futile: "Want" has nothing to do with it. People absorbthe writing styles of what they read.
13:45	futile	bbloom: "individuals and projects use SemVer, or something like it, to good effect."
13:45	futile	TimMc: yea doth I know, sir.
13:45	technomancy	bbloom: I mean that just because you can't trust The World to work that way doesn't mean it's not a good idea to do your best on it when you can.
13:45	bbloom	personally, i like extra punctuation for the same reason i like parenthesis in lisp: explicit grouping is a good idea
13:46	futile	bbloom: not when it makes it feel like stuttering when I read it
13:46	technomancy	bbloom: more interesting to me actually is deconstructing the idea that you can have bugfixes that don't break backwards-compatibility
13:46	futile	bbloom: anyway I've only had this opinion in the past year or so, ever since I've started reading books translated from french or latin into English a few hundred years ago
13:47	futile	they're really, really hard to read. And it's not necessary either. I could easily rearrange the sentences and it reads much more natural.
13:47	bbloom	technomancy: are you suggesting that producing==stamping-versions and accepting==resolving-dependencies ?
13:47	technomancy	bbloom: right; exactly
13:47	hyPiRion	technomancy: Well yeah, in theory that doesn't make sense, because one could depend on that specific bug.
13:47	technomancy	hyPiRion: right; nearly every release includes breaking changes by definition
13:47	TimMc	hyPiRion: Citation: The Win32 library.
13:48	hyPiRion	technomancy: different semantics at least.
13:48	technomancy	hyPiRion: but we don't act as if that were true; we construct this notion of intended behaviour that you're supposed to be coding against, even though it's almost never defined
13:48	futile	bbloom: in Ruby that would really be person.address.residents, much closer to the threading macro than C's or Python's version
13:48	futile	ot
13:48	bbloom	technomancy: personally, i always depend on precise commits for production systems
13:48	futile	the only feature I wish gist had was an RSS feed
13:48	TimMc	bbloom: What I'd like is something that suggests a new set of dependencies (based on semver) that I can then go and investigate.
13:48	hyPiRion	technomancy: yeah, that's the issue
13:48	futile	then my gists would be a full-fledged blog
13:49	futile	technomancy: hey check out my blog https://gist.github.com/evanescence
13:49	futile	:D
13:49	hyPiRion	Well, issue and issue.
13:49	technomancy	futile: you misspelled blagh
13:49	futile	blarg!
13:49	technomancy	futile: lol @ go
13:49	futile	ty
13:50	futile	my fav one is "Lock up your solutions"
13:50	futile	well, right after the "Go 1.1" one
13:50	jcromartie	can someone help me understand how a Clojure fn is a valid java.util.Comparator?
13:50	jcromartie	it just is
13:51	jcromartie	#(isa? (class #()) java.util.Comparator)
13:51	tomjack	jcromartie: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/AFunction.java#L46
13:51	jcromartie	,(isa? (class #()) java.util.Comparator)
13:51	clojurebot	true
13:51	supersym	damn I could be paranoid.. but is #linguistics filled with only bots >< Some answers and sentences they utter... I don't know.
13:51	hyPiRion	jcromartie: if it returns something truthy, then the comparator returns +1 or something, wheras if it returns falsey it returns -1
13:51	jcromartie	er, never mind
13:52	hyPiRion	or 0
13:52	hyPiRion	I don't rmemembe.r
13:52	bbloom	jcromartie: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/AFunction.java#L46
13:52	jcromartie	I completely glossed over java.util.Comparator right there in ,(ancestors (class #()))
13:52	hyPiRion	Oh what, that has to be the best attempt at writing "remember" I have ever done.
13:52	jcromartie	I was mistaken
13:52	jcromartie	hyPiRion: I think that's a new JRPG
13:53	hyPiRion	jcromartie: what? "rmemembe.r" or "remember"?
13:53	jcromartie	"rmemembe.r"
13:54	jcromartie	kidding of course
13:54	hyPiRion	I wouldn't be surprised
13:55	futile	whoa!
13:55	futile	gists even have comments!
13:55	futile	ok gist is literally the best blog engine ive used so far
13:55	futile	maybe it does have RSS? then i'd be all set!
13:55	supersym	oh this cleverbot is pretty nice though... I see gfredericks mentioned him once in teh irc logs
13:56	hyPiRion	jcromartie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0g8bwYzMyU
13:56	Tropby	Moin.
13:57	supersym	How do we get world peace?
13:57	supersym	They world will now the result of all this information processing in due time.
13:57	supersym	not so smart though...
13:59	cemerick	anyone have any idea why Google Closure would produce a conditional here? https://gist.github.com/cemerick/5816340
14:01	supersym	damn...it speaks dutch. Thats wicked tho
14:02	dnolen_	cemerick: nothing to do with Closure that's an optimization for Clojure fns when used higher order
14:02	dnolen_	ClojureScript rather
14:03	dnolen_	cemerick: is that causing an issue in your case? (Math.seedrandom doesn't exist in JS anyway)
14:04	cemerick	dnolen_: Confused. Nothing higher order there. emitted.js is what cljs emits AFAICT; the conditional only appears after advanced compilation.
14:04	cemerick	yeah, Math.seedrandom is provided by a lib
14:04	jcromartie	hyPiRion: hahaha, it broke the CC system
14:04	cemerick	It's not causing an issue; I just noticed it in the process of making that library compatible with gclosure advanced
14:05	hyPiRion	jcromartie: yeah. heh
14:05	hyPiRion	It's not a surprise though :p
14:05	futile	i like how sometimes after 0.0 seconds of making a request to github, it immediately comes back to the page that says "this page is taking way too long to load"
14:05	futile	nginx misconfiguration methinks
14:05	dnolen_	cemerick: well the optimization was introduced for higher order cases, but for any function we can't resolve we check to see if there's faster path for ClojureScript fns
14:06	dnolen_	cemerick: but that's expected, it should appear if you write (js/Math.seedrandom ...)
14:06	dnolen_	shouldn't
14:07	cemerick	ah-ha, will try
14:10	cemerick	dnolen_: OK. I had no idea that cljs emitted different code for different optimization levels!
14:10	dnolen_	cemerick: it has for a long time now
14:10	dnolen_	cemerick: :static-fns is the compiler option - this is one by default under advanced
14:10	dnolen_	makes a huge difference
14:10	dnolen_	"this is on"
14:11	cemerick	dnolen_: noted, thanks :-)
14:11	dnolen_	static dispatching wherever possible to correct arities
14:11	dnolen_	including fancy calling into variadic fns by allocating array at call site
14:11	dnolen_	to avoid touch arguments objects in the all the cases
14:12	cemerick	riiight, that I remember
14:14	dnolen_	cemerick: you should look at emit :invoke in compiler.clj it's pretty funny
14:14	dnolen_	but all of these cases make CLJS much, much faster
14:17	cemerick	hah
14:17	cemerick	man, that gnarly :-)
14:17	dnolen_	cemerick: hah oh yeah
14:18	jcromartie	I could spend forever editing Clojure Cookbook
14:18	jcromartie	:\|
14:18	jcromartie	good thing or bad thing?
14:18	dnolen_	cemerick: a lot of it fell out of trying to make persistent data structures not suck perf-wise
14:18	jcromartie	it's a damn good learning experience
14:19	jcromartie	digging into lots of clojure.core and clojure.lang.* source code
14:23	cemerick	right
14:24	cemerick	dnolen_: any interest in something like goog-dependencies, but generalized to any .js files on the classpath that define provides? Folding something like that in would eliminate most needs for specifying :libs.
14:25	dnolen_	cemerick: sounds interesting, but need more details - open a ticket
14:25	cemerick	sure
14:26	cemerick	dnolen_: I'm surprised you haven't written a bot to sit on your handle and always respond to questions with "open a ticket" ;-D
14:26	dnolen_	cemerick: hehe
14:27	cemerick	should be a lazybot command. Bat-signal Raynes
14:32	futile	Does anyone ever really use ()?
14:32	futile	,()
14:32	clojurebot	()
14:32	futile	So useless.
14:32	futile	(1 2 3)
14:32	futile	,(1 2 3)
14:32	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
14:32	mefesto	,'(1 2 3)
14:32	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
14:32	futile	And it's inconsistent. List with nothing is an empty list, list with things is a function/macro-call
14:33	futile	Unless you quote it, of course.
14:33	futile	But you could just as well do '()
14:33	futile	,'()
14:33	clojurebot	()
14:33	futile	,(= () '())
14:33	clojurebot	true
14:33	mefesto	,(= nil ())
14:33	clojurebot	false
14:33	futile	Why even have ()?
14:33	futile	,(= nil '())
14:33	clojurebot	false
14:33	manutter	,(nil)
14:33	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Can't call nil, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
14:33	S11001001	futile: it's unambiguous, that's why
14:34	manutter	,(seq '())
14:34	clojurebot	nil
14:34	justin_smith	also, I imagine common lisp related hysterical raisins
14:34	S11001001	futile: the eval thing is "look at the first thing in the list, and then...". There's no first thing in an empty list.
14:34	manutter	,(first '())
14:34	clojurebot	nil
14:34	manutter	,(rest '())
14:34	clojurebot	()
14:35	futile	I mean, I see the point in having an empty list.
14:35	futile	Yes, an empty list is very useful.
14:35	futile	But why have () mean an empty list? That's so inconsistent.
14:35	futile	'() is fine for an empty list.
14:35	S11001001	Because it's unambiguous, futile.
14:35	futile	So () should just be an error probably.
14:35	futile	Or at least a function-call-ish-thing that returns nil.
14:36	mefesto	() looks like it's empty to me
14:37	mefesto	what should we do with [] then :)
14:37	mefesto	looks like an empty vector
14:37	futile	mefesto: but [1 2 3] is also a vector
14:37	futile	mefesto: (1 2 3) is not a list
14:38	futile	mefesto: '(1 2 3) is a list
14:38	futile	mefesto: '() is an empty list
14:38	futile	mefesto: [] is an empty vector
14:38	futile	mefesto: () is an empty function call
14:38	Gnosis-	,()
14:38	clojurebot	()
14:38	futile	see the inconsistency?
14:38	mefesto	() is an empty function call?
14:38	futile	no
14:38	futile	but it should be
14:38	futile	hold on
14:38	S11001001	no
14:38	mefesto	why?
14:38	clojurebot	Why is the ram gone
14:38	hyPiRion	(1 2 3) is a list
14:39	hyPiRion	,(list 1 2 3)
14:39	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
14:39	mpenet	,(type ())
14:39	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList$EmptyList
14:39	mpenet	,(type '())
14:39	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList$EmptyList
14:39	hyPiRion	What you're asking is why () doesn't call the first argument with the rest of the arguments
14:39	mpenet	fine to me
14:39	hyPiRion	Which is because it has no first argument
14:40	TimMc	"Because Rich Hickey said so."
14:40	futile	https://gist.github.com/evanescence/5816707
14:40	Gnosis-	what does () do in Common Lisp or Scheme?
14:41	ToBeReplaced	i can understand his point; and I always use '() when needed (rare) instead of ()
14:41	hyPiRion	Gnosis-: it returns nil
14:41	futile	hyPiRion: () with things in it calls the first argument, when (first it) is nil, it should probably just be the same as (nil ...)
14:41	hyPiRion	NIL, rather.
14:41	mefesto	futile: well it's a list when it's read in but it gets evaluated as well
14:41	mefesto	,(read-string "(1)")
14:41	clojurebot	(1)
14:41	S11001001	Gnosis-: in CL, () is self-evaluating; in Scheme it's an error
14:41	TimMc	If it didn't evaluate to an empty list, then (#()) would be less interesting.
14:41	mefesto	,(eval '())
14:41	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
14:41	mefesto	oh
14:41	futile	I'm so happy with gist as a blog engine.
14:42	amalloy	hyPiRion: are you sure? i think it's undefined in the standards for those languages
14:42	S11001001	amalloy: it is definitely self-evaluating in CL
14:42	hyPiRion	amalloy: Well, for CL at least?
14:42	mefesto	futile: i think "consistent" depends on your point of view: (), [], #{}, {} looks consistent :)
14:43	hyPiRion	Very sure ANSI CL at least defines (), NIL and '() to evaluate to the same thing
14:43	hyPiRion	and that car and cdr on NIL returns NIL
14:43	amalloy	hyPiRion: you're probably right
14:43	mefesto	futile: if (1 2 3) generated a list instead of executing then how should we execute code instead?
14:43	Gnosis-	aha, okay, cool
14:44	futile	Cool. Turns out my gist-blog DOES have an atom feed: https://gist.github.com/evanescence.atom
14:44	futile	Sweet. Sign up people.
14:44	mefesto	oh nice
14:45	futile	best blog engine ever
14:45	futile	only thing it's missing are dated-named-permalinks
14:51	futile	Is there a way to compare strings (for sorting) by the end rather than the beginning?
14:52	futile	Oh wait, reverse it first. Duh.
14:52	hyPiRion	,(sort-by (comp vec reverse) ["cba" "abc" "cab"])
14:52	clojurebot	("cba" "cab" "abc")
14:53	hyPiRion	gurr, what
14:53	futile	,(sort-by clojure.string/reverse ["quux" "foo" "bar"])
14:53	clojurebot	("foo" "bar" "quux")
14:53	hyPiRion	yeah, that.
14:53	futile	:P
14:54	futile	Oh wait, juxt to the rescue!
14:54	futile	,(sort-by (juxt clojure.string/reverse identity) ["quux" "foo" "bar"])
14:54	clojurebot	("foo" "bar" "quux")
14:55	futile	That didn't help.
14:55	hyPiRion	I don't see how it matters there
14:55	hyPiRion	futile: that is sorted by the last char, what more are you asking for?
14:56	Raynes	tpope: ping
14:56	hyPiRion	o < r < x
14:57	futile	basically i wanted to group filenames by extension and then sort them within those groups
14:57	futile	but i figured out a hacky way thats faster so meh nm
14:58	borkdude	what is a common way to sort maps by value: (sort (fn [a b] (pred (second a) (second b))) some-map) or something shorter?
14:58	Zamarok	what's the best way to take n elements from the end of a list? Maybe something like (take n (reverse xs))? Or is there way to do it without reversing the whole list
14:58	gfredericks	&(doc nth-tail)
14:58	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve var: nth-tail in this context
14:59	gfredericks	$findfn [1 2 3 4 5 6] 2 [5 6]
14:59	lazybot	[]
14:59	gfredericks	$findfn 2 [1 2 3 4 5 6] [5 6]
14:59	lazybot	[clojure.core/take-last]
14:59	gfredericks	found it
14:59	hyPiRion	Zamarok: list or vector?
14:59	hyPiRion	You can do subvec, which is much faster
14:59	Zamarok	hyPiRion: list
14:59	hyPiRion	ah
15:00	Zamarok	hmm, ok.. noted. thanks
15:00	Zamarok	you too gfredericks ^^
15:00	hyPiRion	(obviously you can only do subvec for vectors.)
15:01	Zamarok	makes sense
15:01	hyPiRion	:o
15:01	hyPiRion	,(instance? clojure.lang.Counted (list 1 2 3))
15:01	clojurebot	true
15:02	ianeslick	Anyone run into the leiningen warning: ":gpg and <password> have a type mismatch merging profiles"? I can't see where I'm still specifgying :gpg anywhere
15:04	fsmunoz	I have a werid problem which I'm not sure is obvious or not, my lack of Java knowledge is likely at fault here. I have a getTableChangeDescription() function which returns "abstract TableChangeDescription[]"; this is "Interface TableChangeDescription" in the docs. However wheh I do a (println "Event type: " (.getTableChangeDescription evt) the class type (also checked with type and class) is "#<NTFDCNTableChanges[]
15:04	fsmunoz	[Loracle.jdbc.driver.NTFDCNTableChanges;@301cb7b>". I wouldn't mind but this thing doesn't accept any of the methods in the documentation... any ideas?
15:04	fsmunoz	s/werid/weird/
15:05	Raynes	tpope: Never mind. I should know by now that if I ever have a problem with Vim I should just look at your Github page.
15:05	amalloy	fsmunoz: it returns an array of things which do accept those methods
15:05	amalloy	the array itself, doesn't, of course, just like you can't multiply '(5 6 7) by 4 without first taking things out of the list
15:06	futile	amalloy: hey did you get that merge i sent ya?
15:07	borkdude	no-one?
15:07	borkdude	what is a common way to sort maps by value: (sort (fn [a b] (pred (second a) (second b))) some-map) or something shorter?
15:07	fsmunoz	amalloy: right, right, I see. I was expecting that to be clearer in the documentation, probably clear enough by the [] I suppose...
15:07	amalloy	that is specifically what [] means
15:07	fsmunoz	amalloy: so I should reference the first entry and see if it accepts the method
15:07	fsmunoz	amalloy: yes, I'm seeing that now, thank you. Still not used to reading the obvious in the Java documentation.
15:08	justin_smith	borkdude: (sort-by pred some-map)
15:08	justin_smith	borkdude: sorry, make that (sort-by second pred some-map)
15:08	justin_smith	pred usually being comp and is an optional arg
15:08	borkdude	justin_smith thank you
15:09	justin_smith	also comparator is a better term than pred there, just reusing your term for clarity
15:10	fsmunoz	amalloy: perfect, it works as expected with an aget, many thanks!
15:12	TimMc	&(sort - [1 5 2])
15:12	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 5)
15:12	TimMc	&(sort-by - [1 5 2])
15:12	lazybot	⇒ (5 2 1)
15:16	justin_smith	TimMc: (comp - compare) seems like it would be useful
15:19	Raynes	yogthos: Man.
15:19	Raynes	I get so many emails from your crazy pull request stuff.
15:19	yogthos	Raynes: haha I've been busy eh :P
15:20	gtrak	justin_smith: I call that function 'descending'
15:20	yogthos	Raynes: lol some of it didn't need to be on a branch I suppose, but kind of used to doing it now :)
15:20	akrikos	weavejester: I'm trying to build a webapp using ring that only uses wrap-reload in a dev environment. To do this, one tutorial suggests using wrap-if, but that seem to be available anymore. How should this be done now (I can't find wrap-if anywhere)? Apologies if this is readily available info somewhere… couldn't find it.
15:20	TimMc	&(.compare trampoline - 7)
15:20	lazybot	⇒ -7
15:20	yogthos	Raynes: btw you see the access rule madness that came out of one of the issues? :)
15:20	weavejester	akrikos: I've never heard of wrap-if
15:21	yogthos	Raynes: check it out :) http://yogthos.github.io/lib-noir/noir.util.middleware.html#var-wrap-access-rules
15:21	gtrak	then I write stuff like: (->> entities (sort-by last-touched descending) (take n))
15:21	Raynes	yogthos: Yeah, that seems like the hardest tiny piece of code to get right ever given the number of issues about it recently.
15:21	akrikos	weavejester: ah. I got the idea from here: http://mmcgrana.github.io/2010/07/develop-deploy-clojure-web-applications.html but my co-worker is telling me I can add it easily… thanks for the response
15:22	Raynes	I was actually considering telling you to make it a separate library until I realized how small it was.
15:22	weavejester	akrikos: If you use lein-ring, it adds wrap-reload automatically for you when in development
15:22	yogthos	Raynes: yeah it's really tricky to get right and please everybody apparently :P
15:22	yogthos	Raynes: hopefully now it's bulletproof :P
15:23	weavejester	akrikos: If you're manually creating your -main function, you can choose to apply dev middleware depending on some configuration setting.
15:23	Raynes	yogthos: Nothing to lose, fire away, fire away.
15:24	yogthos	weavejester: oh have a question about clout, I was using route-matches to check if the uri in the request matched the specified pattern, and I noticed that if you use context then it won't match, is that intentional?
15:24	gf3	sjl: Scala scares the shit out of me sometimes
15:24	gf3	sjl: "Heard u liek syntax, bro"
15:25	sjl	gf3: the syntax is horrifying coming from clojure
15:25	weavejester	yogthos: Clout prefers :path-info over :uri if that's what you mean.
15:25	yogthos	weavejester: eg: (context "/foo" [] (GET "/bar" [] ...) will still have uri "/foo/bar" but clout will not treat it same as (GET "/foo/bar" ...)
15:25	yogthos	ah
15:25	`fogus	weavejester: Thanks again for the core.memoize bug report.
15:25	akrikos	thanks weavejester. I was off ze rails.
15:25	akrikos	(inc weavejester)
15:25	lazybot	⇒ 8
15:25	weavejester	`fogus: Thanks for fixing it :)
15:25	gf3	sjl: Evaluated using Scala + Akka for a project last fall, opted for Ruby + Celluloid :-/
15:26	sjl	I'm looking forward to poking at akka a bit... can you use it from Clojure/other JVM langs or is it really tied to scala hard?
15:27	yogthos	sjl: there are clojure wrappers for it
15:27	sjl	yogthos: ah cool
15:27	yogthos	eg https://github.com/jasongustafson/akka-clojure
15:27	sjl	neat
15:30	Zamarok	Is there a builtin function for finding elements in a list? Like `(search 5 (range 10)) => 5`
15:30	Zamarok	Seems like a very basic function, but hell if I can't find it
15:31	sjl	Zamarok: are you trying to get the actual element out, or the index?
15:31	sjl	I can't really tell from your example because I think they'd both be 5...
15:31	Zamarok	an element, if it exists, else nil I suppose
15:31	weavejester	Use a set
15:31	Zamarok	Oh, good point. The element itself
15:31	Zamarok	My data is already a very large list
15:32	sjl	&(some #(= :b) [:a :b :c])
15:32	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: sandbox5671$eval155578$fn
15:32	sjl	&(some #(= :b %) [:a :b :c])
15:32	lazybot	⇒ true
15:32	sjl	er
15:32	Zamarok	went down the 'some' road already
15:32	weavejester	&(first (filter #{:b} [:a :b :c]))
15:32	lazybot	⇒ :b
15:33	Zamarok	ah.. but doesn't that traverse the entire list? I want it to stop when it finds the element it was looking for
15:33	weavejester	No, filter is lazy
15:33	Zamarok	Oh o_o laziness continues to amaze me
15:33	sjl	&(let [find (comp first filter set)] (find :b [:a :b :c]))
15:33	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core$set
15:34	sjl	bleh
15:34	weavejester	No currying :)
15:34	sjl	&(let [find (comp first filter hash-set)] (find :b [:a :b :c]))
15:34	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$filter
15:34	sjl	oh ffs
15:34	sjl	yeah
15:34	Zamarok	auto-currying is one thing I miss from Haskell
15:35	Raynes	gf3: HI
15:35	weavejester	It's a shame, but imo var-args are more useful
15:35	Raynes	gf3: WHERE'S MY REFHEAP CSS CHANGES. YOU TEASE.
15:36	gf3	Raynes: I'VE BEEN REAL BUSY
15:36	gf3	Raynes: I HAVE SKETCHES THOUGH
15:56	Raynes	gf3: WHAR SKETCHES
16:00	bpr	is anyone familiar with pedestal?
16:00	Raynes	Nope. Nobody in the whole world.
16:01	stuartsierra	bpr: I'm somewhat familiar with it, but mostly just the back-end parts.
16:03	bpr	ok. I'm having an issue with getting the front-end to recognize new/changed css files. I realize that's front-end, though.
16:03	stuartsierra	bpr: I'm afraid I won't be much help then. Try the mailing list.
16:03	bpr	thanks
16:12	dnolen_	stuartsierra: can we do another CLJS release?
16:12	stuartsierra	dnolen_: not this instant, but yes
16:12	dnolen_	stuartsierra: cool thx
16:13	gzmask	,(doc ->>)
16:13	clojurebot	"([x form] [x form & more]); Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the last item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the last item in second form, etc."
16:14	gzmask	,(-> 1 inc)
16:14	clojurebot	2
16:14	gzmask	,(->> 1 inc)
16:14	clojurebot	2
16:14	gzmask	,(-> 1 (+ 1))
16:14	clojurebot	2
16:15	gzmask	,(->> 1 (/ 1))
16:15	clojurebot	1
16:15	gzmask	,(->> 0 (/ 1))
16:15	clojurebot	#<ArithmeticException java.lang.ArithmeticException: Divide by zero>
16:15	gzmask	,(-> 0 (/ 1))
16:15	clojurebot	0
16:15	kmicu	gzmask: you can /query clojurebot in private buffer
16:15	gzmask	ops, sorry
16:19	jcromartie	rkneufeld: I don't see anything like a "basics" or "Getting Started" chapter that's centered around running a basic Clojure REPL or .clj files, creating a project, etc.
16:22	gzmask	jcromartie: what's your editor of choice
16:23	jcromartie	Emacs
16:23	gzmask	nrepl it is
16:23	jcromartie	gzmask? huh?
16:23	jcromartie	nREPL is great but it comes with a lot of gotchas
16:23	jcromartie	I'm talking about writing some recipes for the absolutely bare-bones basics
16:27	gzmask	i duno. I am new too and I feel Lisp is too flexible to have a big set of best-practices. me myself is learning by doing
16:28	dnolen_	yow
16:28	dnolen_	core.match on primitive arrays flies the wind
16:33	gzmask	I have doubts on the dynamic typed aspect of the language. is this making reading the source code of undocumented libraries a bit hard?
16:33	dnolen_	http://gist.github.com/swannodette/5817742
16:33	dnolen_	gzmask: fortunately most open source Clojure libraries are small
16:34	dnolen_	gzmask: larger teams have started adopting schema like systems from what I hear to document intent
16:34	bbloom	dnolen_: i'm quite enjoying your twitter ramblings about js parallelism sucking
16:35	dnolen_	bbloom: heh, I just get sad panda because zero thought has been put into real primitives for doing this stuff.
16:36	dnolen_	~330ms for the final clause
16:36	bbloom	dnolen_: to me, there are parallels with the svn -> git transition for typical programmers
16:36	clojurebot	I don't understand.
16:36	dnolen_	that's pretty sweet
16:36	gzmask	well if open source means RTFSC then I am very scare of dynamic type languages
16:37	bbloom	dnolen_: you can't have parallelism unless you can fork a data structure & just as `svn cp /trunk /branches/foo` sucks, so does Object.clone
16:37	gtrak	gzmask: there's lots of ways to enforce or document contracts, typing is just one. I was scared of the freedom at first, but it grows on you
16:37	bbloom	so no matter what any runtime does, short of standardize some immutable data structures, parallelism is gonna suck
16:38	dnolen_	bbloom: that's what I mean - no talk about standardizing immutable data structures
16:38	dnolen_	bbloom: or at least providing something akin to final
16:38	gtrak	gzmask: there's a huge advantage in treating objects/things as data, and clojure emphasizes that
16:39	bbloom	dnolen_: i'm doing some Ruby work for a client right now & they had an algorithm that desperately needed some minor backtracking/speculation. so i swapped out their arrays and hahses with https://github.com/harukizaemon/hamster
16:39	dnolen_	bbloom: nice
16:39	bbloom	dnolen_: result? ~20 lines of code changed & suddenly we could do speculative evaluation
16:39	bbloom	minds: blown.
16:40	dnolen_	bbloom: haha
16:40	dnolen_	immutability is a hell of drug
16:40	futile	new blog post again, something about documenting properly: https://gist.github.com/evanescence/5817408
16:40	futile	man, writing blogs is fun!
16:42	bbloom	dnolen_: "i want to apply one of the operations from a list, then pick the result which maximizes some function"
16:42	bbloom	dnolen_: the proposed solutions were entertaining
16:43	technomancy	futile: "Use codox, it's beautiful. This is where users will go every time they need to use your library." what
16:43	gtrak	futile: () is empty-list in other languages too
16:43	technomancy	futile: users will use docstrings
16:43	technomancy	in the repl
16:48	gtrak	reading implementation code is always worthwhile in this community, I'm not sure how you can avoid it in other langs anyway unless your usages of libs are trivial.
16:48	gtrak	I've had plenty of java deep-dives, too
16:49	bbloom	gtrak: diving, drowning, what's the difference really?
16:49	gtrak	bbloom: I guess the difference is whether you decide to stay in the water afterwards
16:49	futile	technomancy: if you know the name of the function you're looking for
16:50	gtrak	or possibly the decision might be made for you..
16:50	futile	technomancy: im sure its possible to use the repl to discover a library's namespace names, and functions within them
16:50	futile	technomancy: but that sounds hard
16:50	gtrak	M-. is the most useful tool I have
16:51	futile	okay then let me change it to say 50% of users use codox, the other 50% use the repl
16:52	gtrak	I might cross-reference my code-reading with official docs, but the code's primary, I find that's a more effective use of time
16:53	jeremyheiler	futile: why do you say it's 50%?
16:53	futile	gtrak: i admit ive done both at differnt times
16:53	VFe	Personally I find codox quite useful since it's a very high level view of the code-base, but then I'm a little more graphically oriented. Can't speak for anyone else obviously.
16:53	futile	jeremyheiler: because it seems half of us havent yet become pros at repl-style development yet
16:53	jeremyheiler	The number seems entirely made up
16:53	futile	jeremyheiler: most of my numbers are based on intuition and experience, not hard stats
16:53	futile	but ive found them pretty reliable, so meh
16:54	futile	VFe: ditto
16:54	gtrak	I'd say I'm visual too, but I prefer my own visualizations and understanding to someone else's views
16:55	futile	gtrak: i dunno, this page is pretty awesome: http://ring-clojure.github.io/ring/index.html
16:55	gtrak	the code is the canonical source of the information, I try to build a bigger picture of intent from docs
16:55	gtrak	futile: that just looks like noise to me :-)
16:56	futile	gtrak: no i mean click around on the left side.. then its wonderful
16:56	futile	btw,
16:56	bbloom	futile: i agree with gtrak. that is completely useless to me
16:56	futile	this blog post was really aimed at motivating libs like https://github.com/8thlight/hyperion to shape up
16:56	bbloom	i hate javadoc & anything like it
16:57	gtrak	futile: I prefer grep to visual scanning
16:57	futile	because i love that lib and want more people to use it, but even i find the docs very lacking and hard to nav
16:57	gtrak	ring clicked when I read through the code and saw how people actually used it
16:58	sjl	http://jacobian.org/writing/great-documentation/
16:58	futile	ditto for ring.
16:58	gtrak	compojure clicked when I read every damn line
16:59	gtrak	only took a couple hours
16:59	futile	pft, i got compojure right away, all i had to read was defroutes, routes, and route or something like that
16:59	futile	not cuz im smart, but cuz its simple
17:00	gtrak	you think you get it, until it does something unexpected :-)
17:00	fsmunoz	Er, another obvious one that I'm having trouble with: how do I get the string value of an Enum? I have (str (.getTableOperations change) which seems tos enclose the result in [] (and likely is ont the right apporach anyway)
17:00	gtrak	like.. answer why is it uuencoding my query params..
17:00	gtrak	or decoding them..
17:00	gtrak	caused a bug, now I know where to look.
17:00	dnolen_	sjl: I respect Jacob Kaplan Moss he's a nice guy, but any framework that needs 700 pages of docs needs to be burned to the ground.
17:01	dnolen_	I hated going through Django docs
17:01	VFe	Compjure took me awhile, cause I was completely new to http as well at the time, learning compjure was like 95% figuring out wtfhttp, 5% compojure, hah
17:01	bbloom	dnolen_: oh yeah, rough. sooo verbose
17:01	gtrak	I gave up on Django, because I tried to understand it
17:01	sjl	dnolen_: there's something to be said for "tons of people use it because it actually works and gets things done"
17:01	gtrak	it made me feel like I was missing something :-)...
17:02	dnolen_	sjl: does not compute
17:02	sjl	lol
17:02	sjl	practicality beats purity
17:02	sjl	better?
17:02	clojurebot	better is swiss
17:02	gtrak	writing code without knowing what it's doing is much harder for me than taking the time, that's just me
17:03	bbloom	gtrak: yeah, my paranoid nervous twitches consume quite a lot of time
17:03	sjl	Django's admin interface alone saves like 50% of the time writing simple client CMS sites
17:03	dnolen_	sjl: it works, it solves problems - doesn't mean I like it
17:03	bbloom	sjl: i miss Microsoft Access.
17:03	VFe	gtrak, yeah. Me personally I'm more of a reverse engineer…I only learn by breaking things
17:03	sjl	sure
17:03	sjl	bbloom: see also: excel
17:03	bbloom	sjl: Django's admin (and ActiveAdmin for Rails) are nice
17:03	bbloom	but maaaan i miss access
17:03	gtrak	VFe: breaking things lets me know I'm totally missing something. I try not to rely on it.
17:03	bbloom	so easy to make little GUIs tools for business folks to fuck with
17:03	sjl	excel ain't pretty but I bet it gets more done in a day than most languages have ever gotten done in their lifetimes
17:04	bbloom	the world runs on excel & visual basic for applications is the most popular programming language by number of "developers" by a huge margin :-P
17:04	gtrak	VFe: for instance, if you don't have immediate feedback, ie a stacktrace, you're out of luck.
17:04	VFe	gtrak yeah I totally feel like that sometimes too, but it's what drives me to kind of re-build the system in my head
17:06	sjl	but yeah, ignore the "700 pages" part of that series -- jacob is still pretty much spot on about docs
17:06	sjl	autogenerated api docs are like trying to teach someone spanish by giving them a dictionary
17:07	sjl	if you want to teach someone to use a language/library/guitar/car, teach them, don't just list information alphabetically
17:07	clojurebot	Raynes's list of enemies is '(brehaut)
17:07	sjl	clojurebot: you're drunk
17:07	clojurebot	excusez-moi
17:08	VFe	que?
17:08	clojurebot	A bug report (or other request for help) \|has\| three parts: What you did; what you expected to happen; what happened instead. If any of those three are missing, it is awfully hard to help you.
17:08	brehaut	i think im missing some context, clojurebot
17:09	hoangelos	I'm using procrun and clojure, and I can't seem to call the stop function. It gives me this error: "Method 'static void stop(String[])' not found in Class ../.."
17:09	hyPiRion	I love it when clojurebot is non sequitur.
17:11	dnolen_	sjl: congrats on the new gig, BTW
17:12	sjl	thanks
17:12	gtrak	VFe: trying to actually understand things also helps me stay away from complicated things :-)
17:12	sjl	I think it'll be mostly scala but I'll finally get to actually use Clojure in real life a bit too
17:12	dnolen_	sjl: nice
17:12	sjl	instead of just writing minecraft bots in it
17:12	sjl	lol
17:16	i_s	sjl: that sounds cool, do you have any on github or anything?
17:16	sjl	http://github.com/sjl/clojurecraft
17:17	sjl	i_s: hasn't been touched in a while tho
17:17	i_s	sweet, i'll check it out
17:17	jweiss	amalloy: i am making a patch to clojure.data.xml to properly handle cdata that contains the characters "]]>". the tests were actually wrong. but i can't figure out how to run them
17:17	jweiss	(i am bugging you because your name is listed in the pom.xml)
17:18	hoangelos	anyone here use procrun with a clojure app?
17:19	tomjack	sjl: cool, do you have clients which can log in and behave reasonably?
17:19	tomjack	I implemented the protocol once long ago but gave up when trying to figure out how to actually show up and not just bug out in crazy ways
17:29	gfredericks	I often use C-u C-x C-e to print some data to a buffer -- but when it's a moderate amount of data it all gets printed on one line. Is there any easy way with nrepl.el to get it pretty-printed instead?
17:30	bbloom	i swear i'll stop the shameless self promotion (some day), but everybody in NYC is coming to my awesome talk tonight, right? http://www.meetup.com/Clojure-NYC/events/120698402/
17:32	gfredericks	bbloom: I'm not in NYC nor am I coming, so that's one data point in favor of your theory
17:33	bbloom	where are you at? i'll flight right out tonight after the talk and present my talk to you offer your morning coffee
17:33	bbloom	s/offer/over
17:34	futile	UX is fun
17:38	gtrak	bbloom: you NYC guys get all the fun.
17:39	mrb_bk	bbloom: can't make it this week - kill it!
17:41	gfredericks	bbloom: chicago
17:41	gfredericks	so at least there's a direct flight :)
17:43	dnolen_	bbloom: sadly I'll miss most of it probably, work party - but I'll try swing by catch the end
17:43	dnolen_	bbloom: sounds like Rich will be the audience ;)
17:43	bbloom	cool
17:43	akhudek	bbloom: videocast it!
17:43	bbloom	scratches head i think david greenberg does record them
17:44	akhudek	live
17:44	bbloom	akhudek: heh, unlikely. http://www.youtube.com/user/dsg123456789?feature=watch is where they go i think
17:45	akhudek	too bad, it wouldn't take much to do something like google's hangouts on air or maybe twitchtv or the like
17:46	mikerod	If you give a type hint, but it is incorrect, does any error happen? ex: (defn ^Integer i-return-int [] "hello") then (i-return-int)
17:47	arrdem	traditionally the vardic cases of a function must share one return type, right?
17:47	bbloom	mikerod: easy to try it ##((fn ^long [] "string"))
17:47	lazybot	⇒ "string"
17:47	bbloom	,((fn ^long [] "string"))
17:47	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
17:47	bbloom	mikerod: seems that it depends on the version of clojure!
17:47	patchwork	Is there a way to print a lein project.clj map out in the same format it is written?
17:48	patchwork	pprint for instance puts keys and vals on different lines
17:48	patchwork	but in a project.clj the val is on the same line as the key
17:48	mikerod	bbloom: I did try it and didn't seem to be getting errors. So then I was confused. That is interesting that results may vary though.
17:48	tomjack	,((fn ^Long [] "string"))
17:48	clojurebot	"string"
17:49	tomjack	the error above happens only with ^long and ^double
17:49	mikerod	I guess what this means is, don't assume type hints will catch incorrect types; but don't accidentally give the wrong type hint, because it may throw exceptions
17:50	bbloom	tomjack: ah, primitives vs boxed types?
17:50	gtrak	is there a good write-up yet about clojure's relation to the 'right tool for the job' and sort of 'languaginess' of the language?
17:51	mikerod	tricky tricky primitives
17:52	gtrak	I feel propagandish..
17:56	dnolen_	mikerod: type hints have always been about optimization
17:57	ztellman	gtrak: I just discovered no-disassemble, it's very cool
17:57	ztellman	are you aware of any representation of the bytecode which isn't just a pretty-printed string, though?
17:57	gtrak	ztellman: thank you :-) it's incredibly simple
17:58	ztellman	I dug through the jdt stuff a bit, to no avail
17:58	technomancy	gtrak: oh, does that make sense to expose as an auto-discovered nrepl command?
17:58	gtrak	ztellman: when I posted about it, hugod mentioned there's some bytecode stuff in ritz
17:59	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/nrepl-discover etc
17:59	ztellman	btw, if anyone here isn't familiar with this, it's great, you can just call 'disassemble' at the repl: https://gist.github.com/ztellman/5800916
17:59	gtrak	technomancy: possibly, but I'm wary of making it a generally useful thing when there's no cleanup of old classes
17:59	gtrak	ztellman: potentially could also dig into the eclipse classes for something smaller
18:00	gtrak	technomancy: I think to do it right, I have to transform clojure's classloader to handle cleanup.
18:00	technomancy	I can't tell if no one is interested in the nrepl-autodiscover stuff because none of the other editor devs have time to check it out, or if users just don't see the point
18:01	gtrak	ztellman: https://github.com/pallet/ritz/blob/develop/debugger/test/ritz/jpda/disassemble_test.clj#L90
18:02	ztellman	gtrak: thanks, I'll take a look
18:02	gtrak	ztellman: the eclipse disassembler implementation, it's a mess of visitors as you'd expect
18:02	ztellman	I don't really need anything more than the pretty-printed version right now
18:02	ztellman	it was more out of curiosity
18:03	gtrak	yea, I'm willing to work on it, messing with the DynamicClassloader in the agent would be the next step, I think, but I'm not sure how hard it is.
18:04	gtrak	technomancy: did you get anywhere with lein agent support?
18:04	technomancy	gtrak: yeah, it's in 2.2.0
18:04	gtrak	ah, I'll take a look
18:08	gtrak	technomancy: it's not jumpting out at me, can you give me a pointer?
18:09	gtrak	ah, I see it now :-) :java-agents
18:11	tomjack	glad to see the array perf mystery solved :)
18:12	tomjack	I had just looked at the commits in master a minute ago to see what the heck got fixed since 1.5, and was baffled
18:12	dnolen_	tomjack: many perf mysteries solved at once
18:12	dnolen_	I've been scratching my head at why core.match / logic got slower for months
18:17	brehaut	cool
18:17	brehaut	wrong window
18:18	gtrak	ztellman: if you've got any comments about my arrays of structs stuff, I would love to flesh that out, too, still just a toy, but I think I could implement it both on top of sun.misc.Unsafe and ByteBuffer.
18:19	ztellman	gtrak: where is this?
18:19	gtrak	on github.com/gtrak/knr
18:20	gtrak	here's usage: https://github.com/gtrak/knr/blob/master/src/knr/core.clj#L136
18:21	ztellman	https://github.com/ztellman/vertigo has unsafe/bytebuffer stuff
18:21	ztellman	I wasn't aware of your project, actually
18:21	gtrak	oh, ha
18:22	gtrak	it was a post-conj sort of proof-of-concept, just to explore the possibility.
18:22	ztellman	yeah, took me a while to get around to it
18:23	ztellman	mine tries to make the resulting data-structure indistinguishable from a normal clojure sequence
18:23	ztellman	but with special high-performance accessors
18:24	gtrak	ah, that sounds pretty useful. I was starting to feel a mismatch and felt a need to carry around some type information in a macro, are you doing stuff like that?
18:25	gtrak	I'll dig in sometime
18:26	ztellman	gtrak: clojure's compiler barfs when you add a tag that's not a class, so I compromise with a metadata keyword that can be resolved at compile-time as a valid struct
18:26	ztellman	works surprisingly well, even if the code that figures it out is a bit ludicrous
18:26	gtrak	also, do you handle n-dimensions?
18:26	ztellman	yeah, array is variadic
18:26	ztellman	I should make that clear in the docs
18:27	gtrak	sweet, I'll definitely check it out
18:27	ztellman	oddly, I'm not seeing a very big performance difference between direct bytebuffers and unsafe
18:28	ztellman	maybe the jit's just that good, though
18:28	gtrak	yea, I read somewhere that hotspot can avoid bounds-checks in most cases
18:30	gtrak	still, it's nice to have a good interface to it. I think it makes a good case for lisp. high-level better than java, low-level better than java.
18:31	ztellman	gtrak: yeah, I'm playing around with a core iteration/reduction abstraction right now
18:31	ztellman	once that's there, you get some pretty nice compile-time guarantees in terms of correctness
18:31	ztellman	certainly more than java could when using byte-buffers, let alone unsafe
18:39	futile	I like ##((juxt get dissoc) {:a 1 :b 2} :a) in theory, but haven't found a good use for it yet.
18:39	lazybot	⇒ [1 {:b 2}]
18:40	gtrak	could use it in a reduce
18:41	futile	How?
18:41	clojurebot	with style and grace
18:41	futile	<3
18:41	futile	(inc clojurebot)
18:41	lazybot	⇒ 28
18:41	gtrak	say you want to pop off stuff every iteration and keep track of the last element in your accumulator :-)
18:42	gtrak	don't know why you would want to do it, but that's a situation where I might come up with that solution
18:42	futile	I think I needed that once.. and asked about it on the mailing list...
18:42	futile	hmmm
18:44	futile	Oh! https://groups.google.com/d/msg/clojure/59anbc5Md9g/CcP0CJ98RecJ
18:45	futile	I bet it could be used for that.. somehow
18:46	gtrak	first arg is the accumulator, which can do anything you want. difference between reduce and a loop is you don't get arbitrary control-flow.
19:43	Morgawr	s'up guys, I'll ask once again hoping for a helping hand. I have a ClojureScript library I am developing, this library uses a .js file for some native code (using :libs in project.clj). I package this library as a .jar with :jar true and built with "lein install". When I require the library in my other project that uses it, however, it can't find the .js native stuff. How do I package a javascript file with a clojurescript library?
19:45	tomjack	presumably :libs is something cljsbuild looks for?
19:46	Morgawr	tomjack: :libs is something used to include javascript files that are google closure compliant (aka with a goog.provide("namespace.name")) so you can require and refer them as if they were native code inside your clojurescript code
19:46	Morgawr	the problem is that I can't get to package the .js file with my library as a .jar (inside the .jar there's all the .cljs files)
19:46	tomjack	you think if the js file is on the classpath, it will work for the user?
19:46	Morgawr	if I copy over the .js file and then add it to the project as :libs manually, it works
19:47	tomjack	all you'd need to do is tell leiningen to include it in the jar
19:47	tomjack	maybe :resource-paths ["foo/bar/baz.js"]
19:47	tomjack	oh
19:47	tomjack	right
19:47	tomjack	nevermind
19:48	tomjack	even if it's in the jar AND libs are looked for in the classpath, the user would still have to specify the lib manually, huh
19:48	Morgawr	yes
19:50	tomjack	seems like you'd need an enhancement to cljsbuild
19:50	Morgawr	mmm
19:50	Morgawr	I think the problem is
19:51	tomjack	looks like :libs does look in the classpath
19:51	Morgawr	when you package a .jar, I'm not entirely sure how it works but it seems to just take all the cljs source files and put them together (doesn't even respect directory structure) but the original project.clj is still there (with relative path references). It doesn't take the compiled .js of the library, it requires the user to re-compile everything together
19:51	Morgawr	this means that the end-user has to specify the .js file as well
19:52	Morgawr	I'm just confused as what's the point of compiling a library if you're just redistributing a .jar with the non-compiled files
19:53	tomjack	makes sense to me to distribute non-compiled files
19:53	tomjack	this is what we usually do in clojure
19:54	Morgawr	yes, I know but then I don't really know how to deal with this corner case if packaging some native javascript as well
19:55	Morgawr	all I've seen online is how to use javascript in a clojurescript project or how to refer to clojurescript libraries from javascript, but never how to use hybrid javascript + clojurescript packaged together
19:55	tomjack	it looks like maybe clojurescript itself could use an enhancement like this
19:56	tomjack	hmm, probably not though
19:56	tomjack	not sure how it could work, but I don't think it does :)
19:57	futile	phew
19:57	futile	Does your ClojureScript part of your web app usually live inside the Clojure web app itself, as a subdir? Or is it its own proj?
19:58	tomjack	Morgawr: you already tried just writing it in cljs with js interop, and found that to be too slow?
19:59	Morgawr	tomjack: I have tried working around with it and trying to write it with JS interop but it's just too big of a module itself to be elegant, it's better to just write it in Javascript. I mean, if nothing else works I can try re-write it like that but it would be pretty ugly and hackish
19:59	tomjack	otherwise it doesn't seem so bad to me that users will have to add :libs as long as you put that in your readme, until someday maybe something better works
19:59	Morgawr	in the end it's just a composite function that would look more elegant as a single javascript block (I know, Javascript and elegant don't go well together but this way it's just easier)
20:00	Morgawr	the problem is that it's not just :libs, they also have to download the .js file and add it themselves to their classpath
20:00	Morgawr	(not much of a deal but still)
20:00	tomjack	no, you should be able to get the js file on the classpath
20:00	Morgawr	mmm
20:00	Morgawr	let me try it out
20:00	tomjack	just stick it in the same places as your cljs files for example
20:01	tomjack	then I _think_ :libs ["your/ns/blah.js"] should work for a user
20:01	tomjack	at least there is code in closure.clj which appears to be searching for :libs on the classpath
20:03	tomjack	or you could have src/js/your/ns/blah.js alongside src/cljs and have :resource-paths ["src/js"] :source-paths ["src/cljs"] in your library's project.clj, or something like that
20:04	Morgawr	giving it a go right now, will report back, thanks :)
20:09	CapnKernul	so happy to now have used cartesian-product in a real project. :)
20:12	Morgawr	tomjack: how do I make sure to package the .js file inside the .jar along with the rest of the .cljs files?
20:13	tomjack	easiest way would be to put it in the same place as your cljs files
20:13	tomjack	otherwise :resource-paths ["src/js"] :source-paths ["src/cljs"] like I said above
20:14	tomjack	er, hmm
20:14	Morgawr	oh yeah
20:14	Morgawr	I added it as :source-paths
20:14	tomjack	dunno if it makes sense to put cljs on your source-paths
20:14	tomjack	cljs + leiningen + cljsbuild is all pretty confusing
20:14	Morgawr	putting it in the same places as the cljs files gave me troubles because lein didn't see it in the classpath, no idea why but I think it's cleaner this way, let's see if my other project sees it
20:15	tomjack	well if you put it in the same place as your cljs files, you need to include the path in :libs
20:16	tomjack	like if it's src/your/ns/blah.js, you need :libs ["your/ns/blah.js"]
20:16	tomjack	(which is good, you probably don't want a blah.js sitting at the root of your jar)
20:16	Morgawr	heh, I tried that but it printed an error saying it was missing a goog.provide
20:17	Morgawr	anyhow, I'll keep testing
20:18	tomjack	hmm, hope I didn't give you misinformation
20:18	Morgawr	tomjack: do I need to use :libs ["myns/myfile.js"] or ["src/cljs/myns/myfile.js"]?
20:18	tomjack	the former
20:19	tomjack	but that will only work if src/cljs is in your classpath via :source-paths or whatever
20:19	Morgawr	yes yes, it works, at least the library compiles
20:19	cneira	.
20:19	Morgawr	now I need to figure a way to get it to work in my other project
20:20	tomjack	if you see the .js in the jar as myns/myfile.js, I'd expect it to just work with the exact same :libs in the depending project :)
20:20	cneira	anyone has used oop in clojure , i know is about fp ,but we have protocols & defrecord
20:20	technomancy	cneira: don't use protocols if you are just getting started
20:20	Morgawr	okay so, inside my .jar I have "myns/native/myfile.js". from the other project I have :libs ["myns/native/myfile.js"] but it still can't find it :(
20:21	TimMc	cneira: OOP and FP are overloaded terms. By various interpretations, Clojure is both.
20:21	Morgawr	oh.. wait
20:21	Morgawr	I'm an idiot, I was referring the wrong namespace
20:22	cneira	TimMc , great i have trouble doing some uml class diagram using clojure , is there any good read about oop in clojure ?
20:23	Morgawr	the O'reilly book about Clojure is pretty great
20:23	Morgawr	not sure about OOP specifics though
20:23	Morgawr	it does treat protocols and all of that
20:23	technomancy	cneira: you don't need it
20:29	ianeslick	Anyone have trouble getting nREPL to startup using lein run and an explicit command in the main function? It runs without error, but then doesn't create a socket...
20:33	pandeiro	is the only way to ensure that a lein project uses a particular version of clojure to use :exclusions [org.clojure/clojure] in any deps that include clojure?
20:33	technomancy	pandeiro: as long as no one uses version ranges, your version will win
20:33	technomancy	you can use `lein deps :tree` to see if any version ranges are screwing with you
20:33	tomjack	O_o
20:34	tomjack	is there a good reason version ranges can screw with you or some impl problem?
20:34	pandeiro	technomancy: version ranges have a particular syntax? i'm not noticing any
20:34	technomancy	tomjack: http://nelsonmorris.net/2012/07/31/do-not-use-version-ranges-in-project-clj.html
20:35	technomancy	pandeiro: they can affect you transitively
20:35	tomjack	basically it's maven's fault?
20:35	technomancy	more or less
20:36	technomancy	though actually-justifiable uses of version ranges are extremely rare
20:37	Morgawr	,(inc tomjack) ; I hope I did it properly :S
20:37	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: tomjack in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
20:37	Morgawr	(inc tomjack)
20:37	lazybot	⇒ 1
20:37	Morgawr	okay lol
20:37	Morgawr	thanks tomjack, now my library works! :)
20:38	tomjack	nice, what is it?
20:38	Morgawr	basically, first I had to put the .js with all the .cljs files (I created a directory in the src/cljs subtree as "native" to separate .js code from .cljs)
20:38	Morgawr	then I used proper goog.provide and requires in my cljs files
20:38	Morgawr	and wrote a cljs file with wrapping for functions (just to keep it sane)
20:39	Morgawr	in the end I just added the :libs ["myns/native/myfile.js"] in the other project
20:39	Morgawr	it's not the best option (Something automatic would be great) but at least it works now
20:39	Morgawr	I'll leave a note in the readme for my library
20:40	Morgawr	I really need to write a blog post or something about this because I've been looking around the web for hours and nobody seemed to have the same problem I had. Either it was something very very easy and I didn't realize it or it's a specific corner case nobody really considered before (or didn't care about documenting it)
20:41	pandeiro	i'm not sure how to recognize version ranges; do i need to see the project.clj of each dep?
20:42	technomancy	pandeiro: `lein deps :tree` will tell you if any are present
20:42	technomancy	it's hard to miss
20:42	pandeiro	huh.. i'm going blind...
20:42	pandeiro	my project.clj - http://sprunge.us/OBgX?clj
20:42	pandeiro	lein deps :tree - http://sprunge.us/OVXi?clj
20:43	technomancy	it didn't warn you, so there are none
20:43	pandeiro	for some reason when i create a repl with that project.clj, instead of 1.5.1 i get clojure 1.4.0
20:43	pandeiro	before i explicitly excluded clojure from enlive it was trying to use 1.2.0
20:46	tomjack	clutch?
20:46	pandeiro	so back to my original question
20:46	pandeiro	i gotta explicitly exclude clojure from any project that depends on it
20:46	tomjack	dunno why it would be winning..
20:46	pandeiro	if i want to use a specific version?
20:48	Zamarok	Can I use clojure.core/range to produce an infinite sequence like {0, 20, 40, 60, 80, ...}?
20:49	ianeslick	technomancy: Is there an obvious reason I might be missing why nrepl wouldn't launch in production?
20:49	justin_smith	Zamarok: ,(take 4 (map (partial * 20) (range)))
20:51	Zamarok	justin_smith: right, but range can't do it? It seems like a very basic thing that someone would want to do with a range function
20:52	justin_smith	oh, yeah, now that you mention it
20:52	justin_smith	(range 0 80 20)
20:52	amalloy	justin_smith: that's almost infinite
20:52	justin_smith	heh
20:52	amalloy	,(range 0 Double/POSITIVE_INFINITY 20)
20:52	clojurebot	(0 20 40 60 80 ...)
20:52	Zamarok	there we go, thanks amalloy
20:53	hyPiRion	,(let [range iterate] (range #(+ 20 %) 0))
20:53	clojurebot	(0 20 40 60 80 ...)
20:55	amalloy	clojurebot: show hyPiRion the door, please
20:55	clojurebot	that will show you what jars (including the clojure jar) leiningen is using
20:56	hyPiRion	amalloy: you're doing it wrong
20:57	hyPiRion	~guards
20:57	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
20:57	ianeslick	clojurebot is such a hoot
20:57	amalloy	hyPiRion: i'm just going to talk to clojurebot as if he were intelligent, and see how often his responses make sense
20:57	hyPiRion	clojurebot: the door is <reply>the door will show you what jars (including the clojure jar) leiningen is using
20:57	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
20:58	hyPiRion	He's on a completely different level of intelligent than what we are, though
20:59	metellus	~gourds
20:59	clojurebot	SQUEEZE HIM!
20:59	hyPiRion	,(->> 1 repeat (reductions +) (reductions +) (reductions +))
20:59	clojurebot	(1 4 10 20 35 ...)
21:00	pandeiro	is there somewhere i can read about how lein determines which version of clojure to use?
21:01	Raynes	Whatever is in your project.clj.
21:03	pandeiro	Raynes: did you see my links above by chance? i posted my project.clj and lein deps :tree but lein repl doesn't give me the version i'd expect
21:03	Raynes	I did not. One moment
21:04	amalloy	hyPiRion: i don't really understand what that's doing. there should be a simple formula for the nth element of that sequence, but what is it? i think it's computing...the sum of the first N triangle numbers, basically?
21:04	Raynes	pandeiro: Interesting.
21:04	Raynes	pandeiro: It looks like clutch is causing it to ignore your Clojure version for some reason.
21:04	Raynes	pandeiro: Try doing an :exclusions on clutch as well and see what happens?
21:05	pandeiro	Raynes: yeah ok, one sec
21:07	amalloy	hyPiRion: yeah, that's it. apparently that's called a tetrahedral number, and the nth element of that sequence is (* n (+ n 1) (+ n 2) 1/6)
21:07	pandeiro	weird. now i'm back to using 1.2.0 or 1.2.1 apparently
21:07	pandeiro	just get an error about mapv not existing
21:07	pandeiro	this is the same thing that was happening before i used :exclusions on enlive
21:07	pandeiro	the project name 'clj' wouldn't be interfering right?
21:10	pandeiro	...but when i comment out overtone, for some reason, everything works
21:14	tomjack	sweet, I guess correctly http://oeis.org/wiki/Simplicial_polytopic_numbers
21:14	tomjack	didn't guess "polytopic" though
21:14	tomjack	(+ tomjack 1/2)
21:15	pandeiro	ok it's something very weird and non-deterministic or something... i am going to assume pebcak and return later
21:23	frem	is there a built in function that does the same thing as (fn [x] x) ?
21:24	frem	I'm on this bit in clojure koans, and my solution seems slightly silly. https://github.com/functional-koans/clojure-koans/blob/master/src/koans/10_lazy_sequences.clj#L23
21:24	tomjack	$findfn :foo :foo
21:24	lazybot	[clojure.set/union clojure.set/intersection clojure.set/difference clojure.core/time clojure.core/dosync clojure.core/doto clojure.core/macroexpand-1 clojure.core/or clojure.core/comp clojure.core/-> clojure.core/macroexpand clojure.core/max clojure.core/identity clo... https://www.refheap.com/15937
21:25	tomjack	:)
21:25	tomjack	frem: it's identity
21:25	tomjack	&(max :foo)
21:25	lazybot	⇒ :foo
21:25	tomjack	nice
21:26	frem	thanks!
21:26	tomjack	,(doc find-keyword)
21:26	clojurebot	"([name] [ns name]); Returns a Keyword with the given namespace and name if one already exists. This function will not intern a new keyword. If the keyword has not already been interned, it will return nil. Do not use : in the keyword strings, it will be added automatically."
21:26	tomjack	I have never seen this before
21:26	tomjack	how very odd
21:27	tomjack	utterly baffling
21:28	tomjack	what possible use could that have?
21:28	amalloy	tomjack: it was probably more useful back before keywords got GCed
21:29	amalloy	so that you could find out whether keywordizing user input would cause you to use up more permanent space? i'm not sure tbh
21:29	tomjack	so you could, what, throw an error?
21:30	tomjack	it looks like it could be used to set up an closed set of keywords in a particular ns
21:30	tomjack	then avoid extra interns
21:30	tomjack	vs keyword-izing and then checking a set of acceptable keywords
21:31	tomjack	I guess that would have made sense back then
21:31	amalloy	fwiw, find-keyword isn't used anywhere in clojure.core
21:32	tomjack	&((comp comp comp) 42)
21:32	lazybot	⇒ 42
21:40	brehaut	,(comp 42)
21:40	clojurebot	42
21:40	brehaut	i guess that makes sense?
21:43	tomjack	would be interesting if (comp) were comp
21:44	tomjack	..not really
21:46	amalloy	brehaut: i think that was added because some folks were made that (comp f) and (partial f) just blew up, rather than the "obvious" strategy of "just return f"
21:46	amalloy	eg, in situations like (apply comp fs)
21:46	brehaut	amalloy: sure, just slightly surprising when its used on a non ifn
21:47	brehaut	yay types i guess
21:47	amalloy	sure, but that's dynamic typing for you
21:47	brehaut	yeah
21:47	brehaut	i for one welcome our core.typed overlords
21:47	amalloy	you would, you dirty type-sympathizer
21:48	brehaut	lol
21:49	tomjack	I never thought about the fact that there should be working clojure programs which won't typecheck
21:50	brehaut	tomjack: thats the fundamental argument of dynamic languages ;)
21:50	brehaut	well, that those programs are simpler than the checking one and that that simplicity is a win
21:51	tomjack	I'd love to see real examples of that
21:51	tomjack	ruling out comp-as-identity obviously is a win for core.typed
21:51	tomjack
21:51	brehaut	ring is pretty damn hard to typecheck
21:51	brehaut	even with a type system as flexible as core.typed
21:52	tomjack	well, that's a straw man
21:52	brehaut	how so?
21:52	brehaut	because it was written for a dynamic language?
21:52	TimMc	&((((comp comp) ((comp ((comp comp) (comp comp))) (((comp) comp) comp))))()) ;; brehaut
21:52	lazybot	⇒ ()
21:52	brehaut	oh, i thought you ment ring
21:52	tomjack	yeah, seems you need to compare to an 'equivalent' program in say haskell
21:53	amalloy	$mail dnolen is your "seqable" article findable anywhere now that posterous isn't serving it?
21:53	lazybot	Message saved.
21:53	brehaut	tomjack: the equivalent program would, IMO, be a writen using a unitype
21:53	tomjack	that doesn't seem like a useful comparison then
21:53	brehaut	which would jsut make it a long winded version of the same thing
21:53	brehaut	well of course
21:53	brehaut	that the crux of the debate
21:54	brehaut	if you have to write a different program, its very hard to compare, but if you didnt have to, there wouldnt be an arguement
21:54	brehaut	personally, as much as i appreciate category theory types and type checking, theres very little in the existing haskell web frameworks that i would prefer over ring, so thats good enough for me
21:55	tomjack	hmm, I guess I don't know what the claim is then
21:57	tomjack	but that last thing you said makes sense
22:00	brehaut	i find it ironic that SPJ, someone so good at types, is so bad at type; trawling through all this comic sans hurts
22:00	brehaut	http://cucats.soc.srcf.net/files/Escape%20from%20the%20ivory%20tower%20Feb12.pdf page 69 and 70
22:01	brehaut	The Region of Abysmal Pain
22:04	tomjack	web programming is in there?
22:04	brehaut	it seems so
22:05	tomjack	I was talking with a friend earlier today about the possibility of an Agda successor which has "the Joyful Properties"
22:05	tomjack	I hope someday..
22:16	tomjack	hah "envy/ideas"
22:39	tomjack	dnolen_: experimenting with logict using core.async https://www.refheap.com/6f7acfecd6c1ca0ce50974945
22:40	tomjack	unfortunately at this point I've realized the whole point - failing faster on conjunction - doesn't make sense to me in a general logict context
22:40	tomjack	I mean, conjunction doesn't seem to make sense
22:42	tomjack	or maybe it does and I just don't see it yet, but I think you have to bake in the idea that the success chans receive substitutions, which I don't quite see how to square with some of the logict stuff
22:42	tomjack	in this approach you pass a success chan into a goal, and it returns a fail chan which just closes when it fails
22:42	tjb1982	can someone help me understand how to install light table on linux (arch)?
22:45	tomjack	s/when it fails/when there are no more successes/
22:45	tomjack	which I just realized is a nice fit w/ go
22:52	tomjack	I guess I should have tried implementing msplit before deciding this approach was workable..
22:53	tjb1982	ibdknox: I'm having problems installing Light Table for linux. The package doesn't look like what I'm used to. Can you help me out?
22:54	tomjack	you don't have to install it
22:55	tomjack	you can just extract the tar.gz and run it
22:58	tjb1982	It's complaining about "error while loading shared libraries: libudev.so.0: cannot open shared object file: no such file or directory"
22:58	tjb1982	tomjack: ^
22:59	tjb1982	I see libudev.so.1 in /usr/lib/ but not .0
23:00	tomjack	$google light table "error while loading shared libraries: libudev.so.0"
23:00	lazybot	[Light-Table-Playground - GitHub] https://github.com/Kodowa/Light-Table-Playground/issues/161
23:01	tomjack	seems maybe relevant?
23:02	tjb1982	that workaround looks like it should do the trick
23:04	tjb1982	it generally isn't a good idea to symlink different versions of libraries (as one commenter said)
23:06	tomjack	I think maybe another workaround was suggested that shouldn't affect the rest of your system
23:06	tomjack	didn't look too closely
23:07	tjb1982	I see a script that should work here https://gist.github.com/rickeyvisinski-kanban/4559886
23:07	tjb1982	thanks for your help, btw
23:09	tomjack	I don't know whether to be mildly annoyed or screaming in pain
23:10	SegFaultAX	tomjack: Raynes doesn't know his own strength...
23:11	tjb1982	I' just glad you're not referring to me
23:11	tjb1982	hoping anyway
23:12	tomjack	tjb1982: no :)
23:17	tomjack	I retract my last refheap :(
23:20	bluegator	hello all
23:20	bluegator	a newbie to clojure
23:21	bluegator	i am*
23:21	bluegator	i installed la-clojure in intellij, want to know how i can execute lein commands from within intellij
23:22	bluegator	for e.g., lein run
23:22	akhudek	bluegator: there is a leiningen plugin that does that, but I always just use the terminal anyway
23:23	bluegator	gotcha..
23:23	bluegator	thanks man
23:23	bluegator	also am new to emacs
23:24	bluegator	does anyone recommend emacs over intellij for a newbie?
23:24	bluegator	if so, is there a particular emacs (on mac-os) that is recommended?
23:25	akhudek	i think the general consensus here is that emacs is the best piece of software that exists, for any purpose. I still use la clojure myself though.
23:25	akhudek	definitely worth learning if you interested in it!
23:25	tjb1982	emacs is great if you put in the effort
23:25	akhudek	emacs that is
23:26	brehaut	theres merit to not trying to learn two foreign things at once thoguh (emacs, fp/clojure)
23:27	CaptainLex	bluegator: I can't recommend from personal experience, but I do know my professor used aquamacs
23:27	bluegator	thx for the advice fellas
23:27	bluegator	probably two new things at once might be hard to digest
23:27	akhudek	brehaut: I will use that as an excuse next time I am asked about it. I am always reading ml/papers and cannot learn two complicated things at once!
23:27	brehaut	if you do want emacs for os x, then http://emacsformacosx.com/ is the preferred place to get a build from
23:28	brehaut	(the system one is exceedingly decrepit, and for emacs thats really saying something)
23:28	CaptainLex	bluegator: If you don't mind a bit of frustration, you can learn emacs at your own speed. It has most normal functionality as well as the kooky stuff
23:29	bluegator	thx for the link brehaut
23:29	bluegator	lex, makes sense, will take it in bits and pieces
23:29	CaptainLex	That said, if and when you get hooked on keyboard shortcuts instead of the mouse, try to learn those all at once
23:30	CaptainLex	it's very befuddling to be able to navigate part of the way on the keyboard, but have to use the mouse to finish it off
23:30	bluegator	true that
23:30	bluegator	just saw this: http://overtone.github.io/emacs-live/
23:30	bluegator	any opinions/comments on emacs live?
23:31	CaptainLex	Oooh, I've never heard of it, but I do love these kinds of things
23:31	akhudek	heard good things about it
23:31	amalloy	CaptainLex: last i checked rhickey uses aquamacs. i guess he can get away with it, but it's crazy
23:33	CaptainLex	amalloy: Is it now? I only saw it in action vaguely, and only for basic purposes. I've been using LT for my clojure work, so I don't know nothing from nothing in emacs these days :P
23:33	ddellacosta	I used emacs-live a little, but found that it had too much magic out-of-the-box which drove me nuts…to me it represents a specific person's .emacs setup
23:33	bluegator	LT?
23:33	clojurebot	filter is not map
23:33	brehaut	light table
23:33	bluegator	gotcha
23:33	brehaut	elucidating as always, clojurebot
23:34	ddellacosta	but, worth checking out if you are an emacs user
23:34	ddellacosta	if you are a beginner, not sure I would recommend it
23:34	brehaut	the emacs-starter-kit is a relatively gentle introduction to emacs for dynamic languages
23:34	ddellacosta	I suspect that if I had spent some time configuring it a bit, I would have enjoyed it more
23:35	ddellacosta	I recommend learning basic movement in both emacs and vim, and breaking oneself of any desire to assume one is better than the other. But that's a different discussion I suppose.
23:35	amalloy	CaptainLex: aquamacs apparently differs in so many interesting ways that the bots in #emacs have this canned response: "Because of how Aquamacs departs from conventional Emacs in terms of features, codebase, and stability, no one supports it here. Try #aquamacs"
23:36	brehaut	its like xemacs of the future
23:36	CaptainLex	amalloy: That is impressive! Thanks for the info!
23:36	Raynes	It's like the devil, brehaut.
23:36	Raynes	The devil.
23:36	brehaut	Raynes: didnt i just say that?
23:39	ddellacosta	I'm getting clojure.tools.namespace.repl complaining about CLJS-related namespaces, but can't seem to tell it to ignore my cljs namespaces…any best practices for using c.t.n.r w/CLJS?
23:56	derek_c	hello guys, can someone tell me what does variable-name mean>
23:56	derek_c	?