#clojure – 2013-06-13

2013-06-13

00:27	technomancy	Raynes: curious, could you do that with pdo and lein run?
00:28	technomancy	point-free lein, man. it's the wave of the future.
00:29	Raynes	technomancy: Could I do what?
00:30	Raynes	Prism?
00:30	Raynes	technomancy: I'm not sure how I'd combine those two things to do this. Could you elaborate your idea?
00:42	jeremyheiler	Are there any examples of a library sharing code between Clojure and ClojureScript? (Unless doing that is dumb and I shouldn't worry about it.)
00:44	sinistersnare	jeremyheiler: what would be a use case for that?
00:47	jeremyheiler	I'm writing a library for App.net and I would love to share the namespace that contains the ~100 functions for hitting each endpoint. All that code is very generic, and every function calls an internal "request" function that deals with the details; which is clj-http and cheshire for Clojure.
00:48	malyn	jeremyheiler: I haven't used it (yet), but lein-cljsbuild has a feature called "crossovers" that lets you share code between Clojure and ClojureScript. https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild/blob/0.3.2/doc/CROSSOVERS.md
00:51	tomjack	jeremyheiler: I heard solving that problem is a priority for 1.6
00:51	tomjack	clojure 1.6 I mean
00:51	jeremyheiler	malyn: that looks promising.
00:51	jeremyheiler	tomjack: do you know any of the details?
00:52	tomjack	nope. but I'm guessing it involves 'feature expressions' or some derivative of that idea
00:52	jeremyheiler	That would be great.
00:53	tomjack	pedestal has shared code somehow that is not as much of a terrible hack as crossovers
00:53	tomjack	but crossovers actually works I guess :)
00:54	tomjack	also https://github.com/lynaghk/cljx may be worth looking at
00:54	seancorfield	that will be a really nice problem to see solved!
00:57	jeremyheiler	cljx looks cool, but is probably overkill for my use case.
00:59	tomjack	I assume data readers aren't capable of implementing feature expressions already?
01:00	jeremyheiler	I'm reading about it here: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Feature+Expressions
01:02	tomjack	#host {:clj :require :cljs :require-macros} ?
01:02	tomjack	can't do #_ though
01:02	tomjack	which may be a good thing imo..
04:58	jamii	technomancy: The repl is working now - https://github.com/jamii/lein-gnome
05:23	clgv	if I do (require '[quil.core :as q]) in my namespace shouldnt (defn bla [x] (q/fill ...)) compile cleanly?
05:24	clgv	I am trying to work around a HeadlessException when running the code on a server where I will not use th GUI parts
05:27	tomjack	clgv: are you using defsketch?
05:28	clgv	tomjack: no
05:28	clgv	I use "a/applet" directly
05:28	clgv	loading the namespaces throws the exception thus I wanted to wrap it in a try-catch
05:29	tomjack	I see, tricky
05:30	tomjack	looks like processing initialization causes it?
05:31	tomjack	and then you can't compile that defn unless you catch and alias some other fake ns with dummy vars...?
05:31	tomjack	:(
05:32	clgv	the problem is that I cannot use (require '[quil.core :as q]) as alternative to the entry in the namespace declaration
05:32	clgv	even on my dev machine it says "No such namespace: q"
05:34	tomjack	weird, works here
05:35	tomjack	but it won't help anyway I don't think
05:36	tomjack	if you managed to catch the exception I predict you'd then get "no such var" troubles
05:36	tomjack	er, or "no such namespace"?
05:38	tomjack	https://www.refheap.com/b43b579e3f97b9fa495c775bd
05:38	tomjack	yeah this gives me "no such namespace: q"
05:38	tomjack	my advice I guess is to put the gui stuff in a separate namespace..?
05:41	asaleh	I have problem \w logging in my command lina app and uberjar
05:41	asaleh	when I do "lein run --opts --more-opts --etc" it runs fine
05:43	asaleh	but when I do "lein uberjar; java -jar my-app-0.1.jar --opts --more-opts --etc" it fails on java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.tools.logging.impl.LoggerFactory
05:43	asaleh	any hints?
05:46	tomjack	that does not look like the name of an uberjar
05:46	vijaykiran	asaleh: look for -STANDALONE- jar
05:46	asaleh	tomjack, that is just an example :)
05:47	vijaykiran	asaleh: :) can you paste the project.clj ?
05:47	asaleh	tomjack, vijaykiran in reality I am runnin java -jar tcms-upload-0.1.2-SNAPSHOT-standalone.jar --dry-run --username asaleh --password ****** --xml-result /home/asaleh/clean-room/tcms-upload/testng-results.xml --plan 9032 --build-name new-build --manager-login asaleh --summary test26
05:48	tomjack	apparently clojure.tools.logging is not in that jar..
05:48	asaleh	tomjack, vijaykiran https://github.com/AdamSaleh/tcms-upload/blob/master/project.clj
05:48	bordatoue	could someone help, I would like to know if there is any way to automatically compile the local .java files and load then to nrepl on making changes to the local .java files from emacs
05:48	tomjack	odd
05:49	tomjack	did you already look in the jar?
05:49	asaleh	tomjack, I didn't look, I just thought when I see tools.logging-0.2.6.jar in lib/ it should be in standalone jar as well
05:50	tomjack	lib/? you should upgrade lein :)
05:50	vijaykiran	asaleh: the jar on your github seems to have the class
05:51	asaleh	vijaykiran, yep, I know, but problem starts when I try to recompile
05:54	vijaykiran	asaleh: odd - I get SEVERE: testng-results.xml (No such file or directory)
05:54	vijaykiran	asaleh: no exception
05:55	asaleh	vijaykiran, tomjack I found some difference ... the jar-file I have recompiled has only impl.clj in /clojure/tools/logging/ ... jar on github has folder /clojure/tools/logging/impl/ and Logger.class and LoggerFactory.class
05:58	vijaykiran	asaleh: how are you generating the jar ? which version of lein are you on ?
05:58	asaleh	still Leiningen 1.7.1
05:59	vijaykiran	bordatoue: I'm not aware of hot-reloading java files - may be you can try JRebel ?
05:59	tomjack	like I said.. upgrade
05:59	asaleh	vijaykiran, lein deps;lein compile; lein uberjar
06:00	vijaykiran	asaleh: upgrade is your best bet - I'm using 2.2.0
06:00	tomjack	have you tried `lein clean`? always worth trying when you're having trouble
06:00	asaleh	tomjack, but I need to have 1.7.1 :) ... can I have them side-by side?
06:00	bordatoue	vijaykiran: thanks
06:01	tomjack	when I switched over I just put it at ~/bin/lein2
06:01	tomjack	I think that should still work fine
06:01	asaleh	ok, will try
06:02	tomjack	(fwiw confirmed the uberjar from your master contains LoggerFactory on my lein 2.2.0 as well)
06:03	asaleh	ok, gave it a last try with rm -Rf tcms-upload;git clone git@github.com:AdamSaleh/tcms-upload.git; cd tcms-upload;lein clean;lein deps;lein compile;lein uberjar ...
06:03	tomjack	strange problem though, were there even any AOT bugs back then that have been fixed?
06:04	asaleh	and java -jar tcms-upload-0.1.2-SNAPSHOT-standalone.jar still throws exception
06:04	tomjack	did you make any local changes not in git?
06:05	asaleh	tomjack, just tried the clean clone and compile :)
06:05	tomjack	then yeah, I'd say try lein2.. bizarre
06:11	pyrtsa	Silly thought: would it be possible to wrap `lein repl` to run all lines inside a (-> ...) macro?
06:12	pyrtsa	E.g. to get documentation about something, I could just append ` doc` to whatever I had written first. Or play with postfix in general.
06:12	asaleh	tomjack, vijaykiran thanks, lein2 solved it :D
06:12	tomjack	weird, I skimmed the changelog for 'AOT' and didn't see anything relevant
06:22	clgv	tomjack: yeah I guess the refactoring is the only choice here
06:23	clgv	tomjack: you mean lein 2.1 changes?
06:29	tomjack	I just searched for 'aot' in everything since 1.7.1
06:30	tomjack	clgv: theoretically you could take ns-publics from quil.core and create a dummy ns to require in the catch, I think
06:30	tomjack	but that would be kinda nuts
06:44	ucb	,(inc 2)
06:44	clojurebot	3
06:50	mikerod	##(inc 2)
06:50	lazybot	⇒ 3
06:50	mikerod	Maybe this is a dumb question, but what is the difference between clojurebot and lazybot ?
06:53	tomjack	they are different bots, different code
06:53	tomjack	many many specific differences
06:58	rbarraud_	Is there a FAQ on either or both u can give URL for?
06:58	tomjack	$google clojurebot
06:58	lazybot	[hiredman/clojurebot · GitHub] https://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot
06:58	tomjack	$google lazybot
06:58	lazybot	[flatland/lazybot · GitHub] https://github.com/flatland/lazybot
06:58	tomjack	that's about it afaik
06:59	rbarraud_	Excellent... Thanx tomjack
07:09	fsmunoz	Greeting!
07:09	fsmunoz	Quick help: I'm trying to "translate" this: ((OracleStatement)stmt).setDatabaseChangeRegistration(dcr);
07:09	fsmunoz	And given my lack of Java knowledge I find the ((OracleStatement)stmt)... intriguing.
07:09	fsmunoz	Looks like some sort of cast
07:09	augustl	fsmunoz: that's a cast, you don't really need it in Clojure since it's dynamic
07:10	augustl	you could annotate smtm to be an OracleStatement to avoid reflection though, if it's a call you do a gazillion times all the time :)
07:10	augustl	stmt*
07:10	fsmunoz	augustl: ty, so my translation is likely correct: (.setDatabaseChangeRegistration stmt dcr)
07:10	augustl	yeah
07:11	fsmunoz	Great mate, thank you. I was not getting the cast since stmt is a Statement, but now talking with you I remembered that not everything is dynamic :)
07:17	mikerod	Thanks for the info!
07:35	augustl	fsmunoz: hmm, you might actually have to cast it though, to dispatch the correct method.. ;)
07:35	augustl	fsmunoz: so, (.setDatabaseChangeRegistration (cast OracleStatement stmt) dcr)
07:38	noncom	hi! if i get an exception in a future, there is no output of the exception to the console, it just silently hangs the future. is this ok?
07:39	augustl	if you dereference the future, the exception is thrown in the calling thread
07:40	noncom	i see, so if i never deref it, i never get an exception?
07:40	augustl	this is an attribute of threads, not futures
07:40	noncom	cool! thanks, now i know it
07:40	augustl	^^
07:44	fsmunoz	augustl: ty!
07:54	mikerod	,(+)
07:54	clojurebot	0
08:14	deg	In a clojurescript app, I need to serialize some data in/out of browser local storage, including maps and vectors. It looks like I need to call js->clj and clj->js, but I'm not 100% clear about why; I thought cljs used the underlying js data structures.
08:15	deg	Well, not quite true. I understand that cljs uses clj-style lazy data structures. But, I had thought that all the necessary conversions happened behind the curtains, and I would not have to think about them.
08:17	noncom	,(-)
08:17	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core$->
08:18	noncom	,(+)
08:18	clojurebot	0
08:18	noncom	,(*)
08:18	clojurebot	1
08:18	noncom	,(/)
08:18	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core$-SLASH->
08:18	noncom	,(or)
08:18	clojurebot	nil
08:21	deg	(TEST - does anyone see this? Just checking because I've gotten zero replies to any queries here the past few weeks. Checking that my IRC is working)
08:21	deg	,(print "hello world")
08:21	clojurebot	hello world
08:25	clgv	,(print "hello deg")
08:25	clojurebot	hello deg
08:25	augustl	deg: are you sure clj->js works? toString of a js object is probably as bad of toString on a js object that represents a clj value :)
08:32	deg	august1: I'm serializing the string from clj data. But, the data comes from the dom, and I seem to need to js->clj it before I serialize it out.
08:32	deg	Otherwise, it writes objects like #<array ....
08:32	augustl	perhaps cljs data structures has a better .toString than the JS ones
08:33	augustl	serialization of JS data structures (objects or arrays) are typically done with JSON.stringify, not toString
08:33	deg	Does JSON.stringify also do the "right thing" for clj data?
08:34	augustl	I would imagine not, clj data structures contains metadata etc.
08:34	augustl	what exactly are you putting into localstorage? Dom elements?
08:34	augustl	(ref "the data comes from the dom")
08:35	deg	For my purposes, metadata is not relevant. I'm just trying to persist arrays and maps that are mostly in the dom, but that I also manipulate in my cljs code.
08:35	augustl	(that's parenthesis in english, not a clojure snippet :))
08:35	deg	It feels like I must be doing something wrong; I'm thinking too hard about what should be a simple case.
08:35	deg	Yes, data comes from the dom.
08:35	augustl	well, putting DOM objects in localstorage is certainly wrong, so I don't hope that's what you're doing :)
08:35	augustl	s/DOM objects/DOM elements/
08:36	deg	Not dom elements themselves. Just values in controls.
08:36	augustl	so it's just strings?
08:36	augustl	I can't think of DOM APIs that yields something other than strings or numbers..
08:36	deg	Most were simple strings, but I get an array/vector from some of the more complex controls.
08:37	deg	Like a selection box.
08:37	augustl	are you talking about code that traverses the dom and builds a data structure from that?
08:38	deg	I'm moving towards that. But, right now, my code is even simpler. I have a form, and I want to save the user-entered data when I move to a different page.
08:39	augustl	so essentially you have a JS data structure, the fact that the source of it is the DOM isn't really relevant?
08:39	deg	Yes, I suppose so
08:39	deg	I'm coming from the clojure world. JS and DOM are equally new to me, so I've conflated concepts.
08:39	augustl	I've never used cljs.. But I would imagine it's more convenient to build a cljs data structure instead of a js data structure
08:40	augustl	and in the cases where you build js data structures, you make sure that what your function actually returns is a cljs data structure
08:40	augustl	local mutation, etc ;)
08:41	deg	The structures I'm building are all cljs; at least that was my intention. But (using hiccups library) askig the DOM for the value of a control, I get back what seems to be a js array.
08:41	augustl	David Nolen recently blogged about just that - a function that internally builds up a data structure with raw mutable JS objects, and returns a cljs immutable value
08:42	augustl	deg: I'd be very careful about passing js data around, since it's mutable
08:42	deg	Sounds relevant. I'll search for that blog entry (or do you happen to still have the link?)
08:42	augustl	and whenever you encounter js data, turn it into cljs values
08:42	augustl	deg: http://swannodette.github.io/2013/06/10/porting-notchs-minecraft-demo-to-clojurescript/
08:42	augustl	deg: specifically, the gist under "Local mutation"
08:43	deg	thanks. I'll read that in a second. But, sounds like I'm probably doing the right thing -- explicitly converting js data to cljs as soon as I see it. But, I was just surprised that this doesn't happen automatically and under the covers.
08:44	augustl	deg: this is similar to the interop story for clojure on the jvm - if you call something that returns js data, you'll get js data
08:44	augustl	hopefully people are careful with it, though, so you only get js data when you use very specific functions or do interop
08:45	augustl	the question then becomes how to turn cljs values into a string you can put in local storage. I would guess cljs has this built-in
08:46	deg	Makes sense. I've not done any significant interop in clojure either. I'll just wrap the library calls. I guess, though, I'll digress and read the hiccups source, to understand why it doesn't already do so.
08:46	deg	I assume there is some efficiency concern, i.e. some common case where the data is passed right back to js.
08:46	deg	Anyway, thanks for your help. I think I'm on the right path now.
08:47	augustl	deg: np ^^
08:47	augustl	how can hiccup be related to this, though? Doesn't hiccup only turn clojure data into HTML strings?
08:49	deg	Right. I read the wrong line from ns requires at the top of my file. I meant domina.
08:49	deg	(Again, conflating too many new concepts together. Now that my code is working, taking the time to understand all the code I copied).
08:50	augustl	:)
08:50	augustl	does sound a bit weird that domina doesn't always return immutable values
08:50	augustl	the dom is inherently mutable, though, so if domina returns a DOM object, well..
08:51	deg	Right. That's where I had the feeling I was doing something wrong. Time for me to read the source and learn what domina is really doing.
08:51	deg	No rest for the innocent.
08:51	augustl	deg: there are some ways of dealing with that, such as RFP, and other things, which basically lets you work with an immutable data structure and treats the mutable DOM as I/O
08:52	deg	RFP is what? (I know if I google it i'll hit a million Request For Proposal pages :-) )
08:52	augustl	reactive functional programming
08:52	deg	thx
08:52	augustl	oh, it's FRP. Functional reactive programming
08:53	piranha_	it's FRP
08:53	piranha_	:)
09:12	deg	Would I be over-simplifying to say that FRP is basically modern constraint propagation?
09:27	jcromartie	OK so, let's talk about clojurescript output
09:28	jcromartie	my hello-world .cljs results in 800KB of JavaScript in the "out" directory
09:31	maleghast	jcromartie: Yeah, that's not optimal, huh?
09:31	jcromartie	I didn't delete "out" before passing {:optimizations :advanced}
09:31	jcromartie	but after doing that, it's 676K in out
09:32	jcromartie	I know most of this is boilerplate cljs/closure stuff
09:33	maleghast	jcromartie: Hmmm… Still not great… Aren't you supposed to use Closure, after the CLJS to JS transformation, to 'improve' the resulting Javascript.
09:33	jcromartie	maybe? I thought that it included Closure optimization
09:33	maleghast	Hey, I'm guessing here - I've not gotten around to playing with CLJS at all yet :-)
09:35	BobSchack	Take a look here https://github.com/magomimmo/modern-cljs
09:36	BobSchack	tutorial 7 should have the optimizations you're looking for
09:37	jcromartie	"modern" cljs :)
09:37	jcromartie	as if a bleeding-edge language weren't modern enough
09:38	jcromartie	(I get the reference)
09:38	hyPiRion	hah, I never realized this
09:38	hyPiRion	,(let [v (vec {:a 1, :b 2, :c 3, :e 4})] [(keys v) (vals v)])
09:39	clojurebot	[(:a :c :b :e) (1 3 2 4)]
09:39	hyPiRion	,(let [s (set {:a 1, :b 2, :c 3, :e 4})] [(keys s) (vals s)])
09:39	clojurebot	[(:e :b :c :a) (4 2 3 1)]
09:40	hyPiRion	oh, clojure, you keep surprising me from time to time.
09:40	jcromartie	ah ha, you can emit a single JS file, optimized and minified, at 13K with gzip
09:40	jcromartie	not too bad for a baseline
09:40	maleghast	jcromartie: You have just persuaded me that I want to know about CLJS, so thanks for that :_)
09:40	jcromartie	maleghast: I'm persuading myself as I go along
09:41	jcromartie	maleghast: I think it would be a boon for HTML game/interactive type dev
09:41	maleghast	Fairy snuff ;-)
09:41	jcromartie	I prefer Lisp over Coffeescript's rather syntaxy-syntax
09:41	jcromartie	i.e. Coffeescript has lots of rules about whitespace and colons and whatnot
09:42	maleghast	I am getting quite excited about Pedestal, but again, I need time to __actually__ try it out - there's only so much you can learn / judge from just reading about something
09:43	BobSchack	jjcromartie: chris granger has a nice post about writing a game in clojurescript here http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/12/11/anatomy-of-a-knockout/
09:44	mucker	I find myself abusing the -> macro. How do I get past the inside out evaluation of lisp ? In ruby I would have a bunch of foo = expr ...
09:45	hyPiRion	mucker: Hmm. using `let` works, but the best trick is to just get more familiar with functional programming
09:46	hyPiRion	and with lisp, of course. With time, you end up being more immutable and the inside out evaluation is rarely a problem (at least in Clojure)
09:47	mucker	hyPiRion I can't use let freely, can I ? It needs to be (let (bindings) expr) I just want to say ((let foo bar) (+ foo bar))
09:49	hyPiRion	mucker: well, (let [foo 1, bar 2] (+ foo bar)) is easier to write than (do (let [foo 1, bar 2]) (+ foo bar)), isn't it?
09:50	hyPiRion	I understand your concern, and really, the best way to "get used" to it is by experience and practise. At least that's what I think
09:50	jcromartie	w00t, success
09:50	jcromartie	I want to at least understand how to use the CLJS compiler before using lein-cljsbuild
09:51	mucker	hyPiRion: yup :)
10:16	jweiss	how long have multiline strings with """ delimiters been available? Could have sworn that didn't exist before
10:17	jweiss	or maybe it doesn't exist but it's shown here http://adambard.com/blog/clojure-batteries-included/
10:17	Bronsa	yeah, they don't.
10:19	clgv	jweiss: no there is no special multiline string - but string literals can span multiple lines by default
10:19	hyPiRion	huh, never seen that before
10:19	augustl	jweiss: single quote strings can be multi-line
10:19	arcatan	"""foo""" is like "" "foo" ""
10:20	arcatan	so I guess the docstring in there will be "", but otherwise it works :P
10:21	arcatan	oh right, he has un-escaped "s, so it won't work anyway.
10:22	tranceholic	hi, im new here, could i ask a question?
10:22	girl	shopping site verry chaeap and quick go .
10:22	girl	hi
10:22	girl	this is a good site of shoping
10:22	girl	http://team-browser.com/
10:22	girl	card visa maser .... all
10:22	girl	enjoy
10:22	girl	i have buy iphone 5
10:22	girl	good by
10:22	maleghast	tranceholic: Sure - go for it
10:22	tranceholic	my `lein repl` hangs at the root directory of a project, but does not outside the project. Why?
10:25	maleghast	tranceholic: That's quite odd… What version of Leiningen are you using?
10:26	Anderkent	tranceholic: it might be trying to compile your main namespace and hanging on that, or maybe you have some weird injections?
10:28	murtaza52	What does this form mean - #_(dev/start) - (dev/start) is a call in a specific ns, however whats #_ for ?
10:28	Anderkent	murtaza52: #_ is a way of commenting out a form
10:28	tranceholic	my lein is 2.2.0
10:29	murtaza52	Anderkent: Thanks, and all this while I was wondering why it wa snot executing :)
10:32	simon_	Hello! Im new to clojure and have a question about memoize, it seems like it doesnt work for me.
10:32	simon_	http://pastebin.com/djd94092
10:33	simon_	(status-page "rbx") takes a couple of seconds to return.
10:33	simon_	The next time i run (status-page "rbx") i would expect it to return instantly, but it takes as long as the first time I called it.
10:33	maleghast	tranceholic: Can you paste your project.clj here -> refheap.com and paste the URL in here, please?
10:34	tranceholic	please wait a minute...
10:34	jweiss	simon_: looks right to me
10:34	jcromartie	simon_: works fine for me
10:35	XPherior	I think my Java interop knowledge is failing me here. I have the class shown there, and want to access the _Fields enum on line 39. https://gist.github.com/MichaelDrogalis/ca1bd4629221b9c16ee1
10:35	jcromartie	simon_: are you sure you're calling the status-page you think you are?
10:35	XPherior	Shouldn't it be (DataUnit/_Fields) ?
10:35	Anderkent	XPherior: it's a class, not a field. DataUnit$_Fields
10:35	jcromartie	simon_: i.e. are you in a REPL and perhaps haven't reloaded the namespace where status-page was originally defined with a non-memoized version?
10:35	XPherior	Anderkent: Ahhh, I forgot about that!
10:35	XPherior	Thanks a million Anderkent :)
10:35	simon_	Just killed my repl and tried again, same result.
10:36	simon_	its nrepl. Ill try with the lein repl.
10:36	tranceholic	https://www.refheap.com/15741
10:36	jcromartie	simon_: hm, yeah, it works fine with lein repl here
10:36	XPherior	Huh, Anderkent. That's actually giving me unable to resolve symbol.
10:37	simon_	Yeah, in lein repl it seems to work, but not in the emacs one, maybe its just slow in emacs.. :)
10:37	simon_	Thanks guys.
10:37	simon_	And gals
10:38	tranceholic	`lein uberjar` worked fine and got a working standalone jar, FYI
10:38	maleghast	tranceholic: Hmmm, I just used your paste to create a quick test project and the repl launches perfectly fine for me...
10:39	XPherior	Nevermind, forgot the qualified namespace. Thanks!
10:40	tranceholic	thank you for your time, maleghast
10:43	maleghast	tranceholic: No problem - sorry to not be more help… What OS / platform are you on?
10:45	tranceholic	im on WindowsXP sp3 ; Cygwin; JDK1.7.0_21
10:48	maleghast	tranceholic: Hmmm… Should be ok… And you can run your app with lein, just not run a REPL?
10:51	tranceholic	right, `lein run` worked on the app, but simply `lein repl` hangs on the same root directory of the app's project...
10:51	maleghast	tranceholic: So you are running "lein repl" in the same directory as project.clj?
10:52	tranceholic	yes
10:52	maleghast	I figured, but worth asking, just in case...
10:53	tranceholic	according to lein tutorial, `repl` can run from anywhere...
10:53	Anderkent	lein repl does do different things in a project than outside, so it's possible there's a path that makes it go wrong
10:53	Anderkent	tranceholic: if you clear your ~/.lein and create a new empty project, does lein repl run?
10:54	Guest44310	hi. i'm using vectors a lot, because some datastructures I need have to have a good random access time. But every time I map a vector I get a list in return. Why is that? Why can't I just can get the datatype back I throw at the map?
10:54	Anderkent	if not, that's a lein bug. If it does, then it's something related to your profile/project config
10:55	tranceholic	what do you mean by `clear ~./lein`? `rm -r ./lein` ?
10:58	Anderkent	tranceholic: do you have anything in your user profile in %USERPROFILE%\.lein ?
10:58	IamDrowsy	Guest44310: because map takes any seq and returns a lazy seq. its implemented on top of seqs and not vectors. in the vector case you can use mapv
10:59	Guest44310	ah thanks. I didn't know about mapv
11:00	ToxicFrog	Guest44310: map is lazy, and there's no lazy vector type. So you have to- yes, what, IamDrowsy said.
11:01	tranceholic	sorry, i dont know how to get SERPROFILE%\.lein
11:02	Anderkent	tranceholic: just type %USERPROFILE% in explorer address bar
11:02	Anderkent	then find the lein directory
11:02	Anderkent	but well
11:02	Anderkent	if you didn't edit it
11:02	Anderkent	there won't be anything there
11:02	Anderkent	so just try creating a new lein project with lein new, go into it and see if repl works
11:03	Anderkent	if not, report a bug at github.com/technomancy/leiningen
11:05	ArseneRei	I'm trying to understand -> (trush) w/ vectors, but I can't see the write way to re-write these filters as a trush list. https://gist.github.com/arsenerei/5774391
11:05	dobladez	is there a way to automatically activate a lein profile based on the OS type?
11:05	tomjack	so yeah jeanniki's point on clojure-dev is.. interesting https://www.refheap.com/95b2b6be8fcacf98bce152765
11:06	tranceholic	now i typed `SRPROFILE% on explorer address bar, but no lein directory can be seen
11:06	dobladez	like maven's <profile><activation><os> ... ?
11:07	tranceholic	and `.m2` folder found
11:07	tomjack	ArseneRei: use ->>
11:08	tomjack	->> is for stuff like filter where the threaded operand comes last
11:08	ArseneRei	Hrm…why did I think it was first.
11:10	ArseneRei	tomjack: Ah…yes, I get what you're saying. Makes perfect sense. Thanks so much!
11:10	john2x	can someone point me to a good api wrapper library written in clojure? i'd like to study it..
11:13	tranceholic	at a new project directory i just created, my `lein repl` still hangs, so it might be a bug, thank you very much folks.
11:16	futile	Good morning.
11:17	devn	https://github.com/tailrecursion/presioke
11:17	devn	There are so many things that are cool about that. ^
11:19	devn	This (https://github.com/tailrecursion/presioke/blob/2215b16d9add5aeb6e06a329428ad5f3636cbe24/src/html/index.html) is the same as this (https://github.com/tailrecursion/presioke/blob/master/src/html/index.cljs)
11:19	devn	let that sink in for a minute
11:21	noncom	can an imported function know from which was it called?
11:21	noncom	*it is called
11:22	noncom	like i want to configure a library, imported in many namespaces to understand where from it is called
11:23	noncom	so in a namespace i call like (library/configure :my-name) and then when i call fnuctions in that library, it adds that :my-name to the call
11:24	noncom	so i could, for example, have a different textual output, depending on from which namespace is it called
11:24	noncom	???
11:24	lazybot	noncom: How could that be wrong?
11:37	TimMc	noncom: Clojure doesn't have built-in namespace "instancing", but I've seen a project that gives you something like that...
11:40	TimMc	amalloy_: Am I correct in recalling that you have a lib that allows one to require the same namespace several times under different names?
11:41	tomjack	devn: wow. hoplon looks crazy
11:41	hyPiRion	,(let [f #(println ns)] (f) (in-ns 'clojure.core) (f))
11:41	clojurebot	#<Namespace sandbox>\n#<Namespace clojure.core>\n
11:41	hyPiRion	?
11:42	tomjack	TimMc: what do you mean?
11:42	tomjack	,(do (require '[clojure.core :as core1] '[clojure.core :as core2]) [core1/+ core2/+])
11:42	clojurebot	[#<core$_PLUS_ clojure.core$_PLUS_@61022c> #<core$_PLUS_ clojure.core$_PLUS_@61022c>]
11:43	tomjack	oh I guess that's only require'd once but aliased twice?
11:43	hyPiRion	tomjack: yeah
11:44	hyPiRion	,(do (require '[clojure.core :as c1 :as c2]) [c1/+ c2/+])
11:44	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: c1, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
11:44	hyPiRion	hrmf.
11:46	TimMc	tomjack: The lib I'm thinking of probably does some very naughty stuff to accomplish its task.
11:49	futile	Gotta figure out this test-nesting question.
11:50	futile	Seems like definers should have a way to "push" onto a stack, rather than just being given assertion-results
11:56	futile	Raynes: fine job with refheap I say
11:58	futile	tomjack, mthvedt: https://www.refheap.com/15744
12:00	tomjack	futile: seems weird to me to have them in the top level
12:00	futile	tomjack: they all have to run in the top-level, right?
12:02	futile	tomjack: even with nesting, they should probably be allowed to run outside of the context of their nest, right?
12:02	tomjack	I mean given the report you show I'd expect to see something more like (defn ^:test outer "..." [] (expect = 1 1) (testing "While signed in" (testing "It lets you do stuff" ...)))
12:02	futile	Wait!
12:03	futile	Fixtures are inherently tied to nested tests.
12:05	tomjack	to me if 'test' a is nested inside test b, a should be inside of b in the code. def'ing a at the top level and somehow indicating "run this magically inside b" seems bizarre
12:05	futile	tomjack: by nested tests I never mean a test that's defined inside another test
12:06	futile	I always mean, a test that has the same context as other tests
12:06	futile	And by context I mean (1) a common scenario/pre-description, and (2) common around-each and/or around-all fixtures
12:07	tomjack	so the flow is, ignoring around-all and in pseudocode, (around-each outer) (outer) (around-each inner1) (inner1) (around-each inner2) (inner2) ?
12:08	futile	Kinda
12:09	futile	assuming fixtures here are macros that take bodies: (do (outer1) (outer2) (around-each (inner1)) (around-each (inner2)))
12:10	tomjack	no around-each for outers?
12:10	futile	Yeah, any level can have its own set of around-each's
12:10	futile	And each outer layer is also applied to the nested inner layers
12:11	tomjack	no clue what you're getting at :)
12:11	futile	so: (around-each-1 (outer1) (outer2) (around-each-1 (around-each-2 (inner1))) (around-each-1 (around-each-2 (inner2))))
12:12	tomjack	yeah that makes very little sense to me
12:12	futile	tomjack: https://www.refheap.com/15744#L-45
12:13	futile	tomjack: familiar at all with RSpec?
12:13	tomjack	used to be
12:13	futile	I'm thinking, exactly what RSpec does is right.
12:14	Anderkent	futile: don't you want to just have something like defgroup that only makes all contained tests be indented, but doesn't trigger fixtures etc?
12:14	tomjack	before :each inside context?
12:14	futile	Anderkent: That makes a lot of sense.
12:14	tomjack	or alongside
12:14	futile	tomjack: yeah.
12:15	futile	Anderkent: but should it produce a flat list of tests that just happen to be wrapped in a fn that takes into account each fixture?
12:15	futile	That's what I'd think.
12:18	futile	Anderkent, tomjack: aha! https://www.refheap.com/15744
12:19	tomjack	the "while signed in" confuses me
12:19	tomjack	the inner group is going to have an extra each fixture which signs in?
12:19	futile	Then each "group" could have once-fixtures, each-fixtures, a description, and optionally its own :parent.
12:20	futile	tomjack: yep
12:21	tomjack	seems like there's two separate things: 1) testing-like conj'ing of descriptions into the reporting context 2) adding fixtures per-test-fn
12:21	tomjack	those two features should be sufficient to implement something crazy like defgroup, yes?
12:21	futile	tomjack: hmm
12:21	futile	tomjack: no I don't think nesting should be something you actively do, like conj
12:22	futile	tomjack: it should be something that's described statically.. like how in this refheap each test can have a :parent key which names a group
12:23	tomjack	eventually that's going to have to turn into some side-effect right?
12:23	tomjack	like "hey now we're running assertions under a new heading \"foo\""
12:24	futile	tomjack: nope. it just needs a change to the runner to produce nested test-results, that's all.
12:24	futile	tomjack: https://www.refheap.com/15744
12:24	tomjack	I see
12:24	futile	tomjack: the runner will have to make sure they're all run in the proper group
12:24	futile	tomjack: the downside of this solution is that it's biased towards 1 very specific implementation of fixtures
12:25	futile	tomjack: the upside is that it actually works, and it's very static and compile-time friendly, instead of side-effect-based
12:25	futile	tomjack: plus using this, im pretty sure i know how to emulate both speclj and clojure.test perfectly
12:26	tomjack	I still maintain that it is impossible for you to emulate clojure.test perfectly without a custom runner :)
12:26	futile	tomjack: here let me show you exactly how it would be done
12:27	tomjack	I get what you mean now though, and test groups seem to make sense to me
12:28	tomjack	your last refheap seems to imply I don't understand how you're going to do fixtures - I thought the fixtures would be baked inside the (defn ^:test ..) bodies
12:29	tomjack	if the default runner knows about fixtures then I retract my claim
12:30	futile	tomjack: https://www.refheap.com/15752
12:31	tomjack	yeah makes sense
12:31	futile	tomjack: but you're right, the downside is that fixtures are now hard-coded into the spec.
12:32	pepijnde-	Why is Lisp in Small Pieces so expensive? $100 for a book sounds kind of rediculous.
12:32	futile	It's probably just that good.
12:32	pepijnde-	:o
12:33	futile	Not that I would know.
12:33	futile	But why else? Supply/demand knows what it's doing.
12:33	hyPiRion	pepijnde-: http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Neuroevolution-Through-Erlang-Gene/dp/1461444624
12:33	hyPiRion	They are academic books, they usually cost that much. At least from my experience
12:34	pepijnde-	why? because poeple have to buy them?
12:34	hyPiRion	yeah
12:34	pepijnde-	btw, the french version of lisp costs less than half :)
12:34	hyPiRion	no wonder, it was originally written in French
12:35	pepijnde-	and there is probably less demand...
12:36	hyPiRion	probably
12:45	justin_smith	with emacs nrepl, I get this state where after an external nrepl is killed, every time I try to connect to another nrepl, it just shows "equal: Wrong type argument: bufferp, nil" but does not pop me into the normal elisp stack trace view
12:45	futile	tomjack: oh but the runner's implementation will be a pain, since you have to build a tree starting with only nodes.
12:46	justin_smith	I have debug-on-error set to t - most elisp failures actually pop up the debugger so I can trace the error
12:46	justin_smith	nrepl must shadow that variable or something
12:46	hiredman	https://github.com/kingtim/nrepl.el/issues/280
12:46	justin_smith	any known fix for this other than restarting emacs?
12:47	justin_smith	OK, restarting emacs yet again
12:59	seangrove	Is there a pmapcat equivalent to pmap?
13:00	seangrove	Beyond just (apply concat (pmap ...)) of course
13:04	futile	seangrove: I don't see one.
13:09	finishingmove	what do you guys think of Racket?
13:10	futile	finishingmove: I couldn't get into it nearly as easy as Clojure, mostly a stdlib thing
13:10	futile	finishingmove: everything about Clojure has spoiled me except the jvm/lein startup time
13:11	technomancy	finishingmove: racket is pretty amazing
13:11	technomancy	especially for people new to programming
13:12	technomancy	there are two really bad things about it: no docstrings, and hash tables that really suck compared to clojure. but they do a better job than any other non-clojure lisp at supporting immutability.
13:12	hyPiRion	The best thing is that you can walk through SICP with it
13:13	technomancy	you can fix the hash table thing with a #lang directive in your own code, but it doesn't help when reading others' code. culturally they appear to prefer structs to coding straight against the data, which is unfortunate
13:13	technomancy	htdp.org is no slouch either
13:17	finishingmove	so basically racket is better for learning and clojure for real world application?
13:17	technomancy	finishingmove: yeah, I wouldn't expect anyone without prior programming experience to learn clojure unless they were just insanely dedicated
13:18	rbxbx	finishingmove: that's probably fair
13:18	technomancy	there's an assumption woven throughout the whole ecosystem that the user is a professional programmer
13:19	finishingmove	there's a bit of irony in that, since you'll need a relatively industry-adopted language to make a living as a programmer... so in the end what to recommend to someone who wants to learn? :)
13:21	maleghast	finishingmove: The tide is beginning to turn in the direction of Functional Programming in certain industries for a variety of good reasons, and Clojure is a very powerful, battle-tested Func Lang that is becoming popular in banking / finance, data insight etc. If you want to be able to move effortlessly job to job to job being a Polyglot Developer will help, as long as you can show you have the chops in each of your langs, and Clojure is fun to learn as
13:21	maleghast	well, so what's not to like
13:21	maleghast	?
13:23	finishingmove	i don't think any of the Clojure-supporting IDEs are good enough to support a beginner programmer
13:24	technomancy	I'm not aware of anything in any language as good as DrRacket for beginners.
13:24	finishingmove	maybe LightTable will be there in a year
13:24	rasmusto	finishingmove: why needs an IDE to learn programming?
13:25	wink	notepad is good enough to support beginner programmers.
13:25	rasmusto	finishingmove: s/why/who
13:25	maleghast	finishingmove: Who the heck __needs__ an IDE - emacs + Emacs Live and you are golden
13:25	technomancy	well, Scratch is easier to learn, but that's cheating.
13:25	futile	Woot. Spec is probably 99.9% stable now.
13:26	wink	DrRacket is nice
13:27	futile	https://github.com/evanescence/test2/blob/master/SPEC.md :)
13:31	Anderkent	I know this ain't the heroku channel, but someone probably knows how to escape args to `heroku run` so that it doesnt pick up the -c 'java -cp' as it's own '--confirm' ?
13:32	futile	Anderkent: i dunno, but thanks for solving this spec problem for me :D
13:46	finishingmove	is anyone using emacs on windows?
13:50	pisketti	finishingmove: at work occasionally
13:51	finishingmove	how would i install emacs-live (or anything else for that matter) on windows?
13:51	maleghast	finishingmove: I'm not sure why anyone would, at least not by choice, but it does appear to be completely compliant...
13:51	finishingmove	maleghast, probably because they don't have a separate unix machine :p
13:52	finishingmove	and are already stuck with windows
13:52	finishingmove	due to circumstances
13:52	maleghast	yeah, but why not use Emacs under Cygwin in that case?
13:52	pisketti	finishingmove: just as do on linux. First install emacs 24 and replace .emacs.d on the users home dir with the contents of emacs-live
13:53	pisketti	and _then_
13:53	pisketti	http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/windows/ emacs from here
13:54	finishingmove	yeah i have emacs for windows running
13:54	pisketti	by contents of emacs-live I mean the checkout from https://github.com/overtone/emacs-live
13:54	finishingmove	just not sure what to copy from that repo ?
13:55	pisketti	finishingmove: then the rest is easy
13:55	pisketti	finishingmove: checkout the whole thing
13:55	pisketti	git clone
13:55	maleghast	finishingmove: git clone [emacs-live repo] .emacs.d
13:58	finishingmove	did that but not sure if it worked..
13:58	papul	I am trying to run a program written in clojure. When I run the command 'lein uberjar' I get this http://codepaste.net/xv5sbp. But I have jdk installed. I did 'whereis javac' and got this http://codepaste.net/boan6p
13:58	finishingmove	looks the same after starting up
13:58	papul	what am I doing wrong?
13:58	pisketti	finishingmove: then its not working
13:59	maleghast	papul: I don't think you have a full JDK installed - just having the runtime is not enough.
14:00	papul	maleghast: But I have javac in /usr/bin
14:00	papul	and I did install openjdk 7
14:00	ToxicFrog	maleghast: 'javac' is the compiler and part of the JDK, not the JRE
14:00	maleghast	papul: ToxicFrog Yeah, I know
14:01	maleghast	what Clojure are you trying to run?
14:01	ToxicFrog	papul: what's "type -a java"?
14:01	maleghast	Have you tried "lein run" instead of trying to create a .jar?
14:01	pisketti	finishingmove: did you have an empty .emacs.d in your user dir after the instalaltion of emacs?
14:01	ToxicFrog	It might be finding the JRE JVM before the JDK JVM and exploding.
14:01	papul	ToxicFrog: java is /usr/bin/java
14:01	finishingmove	pisketti, no i didn't have it actually
14:02	finishingmove	i think it's probably installed like a portable version
14:02	papul	maleghast: I am following instructions really. This is my first time with clojure. Just wanted to try that app
14:02	pisketti	I don't have a windows box nearby so I can't go check but I think that was the case. Then I just replaced it the contents of with emacs-live
14:02	maleghast	papul: fair enough - what's the app?
14:02	papul	maleghast: Nightweb
14:02	pisketti	and of course kept the name
14:03	papachan	what is the best way in clojure to render 00010010 ?
14:03	llasram	papachan: In what sense of "render"?
14:03	papachan	,(Integer/toString 18 2)
14:03	clojurebot	"10010"
14:03	papachan	llasram like this
14:04	finishingmove	pisketti, i have these folders in my emacs root : bin, etc, info, leim, lisp, site-lisp. Is that where I should extract emacs-live ?
14:04	llasram	papachan: Looks like you already have it then, yes? :-)
14:05	jcromartie	I don't like it when people use "CLJ" instead of "Clojure"
14:05	hyPiRion	well, you can use cl-format for that
14:05	hyPiRion	,(require '[clojure.pprint :refer [cl-format]])
14:05	clojurebot	nil
14:05	hyPiRion	,(cl-format nil "~b" 18)
14:05	clojurebot	"10010"
14:05	holo	hi
14:05	futile	holo: hi again
14:06	holo	hi! again? was i here recently?
14:06	papachan	hyPiRion: nice one
14:08	futile	holo: few days ago, you said hi and that was it
14:08	maleghast	papul: Sorry, I am in a conf call and I need to start paying attention again...
14:08	pisketti	finishingmove: try M-: (expand-file-name user-init-file)
14:09	pisketti	to find the place where you should put it
14:09	holo	when running `lein run -m script.ipsql` I get "java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: script.ipsql" I've always ran this script without any problem. I think some refactoring outside the script (doing alot recently) may have caused this problem but can't find the reason
14:09	holo	futile, wow, nice memory. thanks
14:11	futile	holo: ok
14:12	futile	holo: I think I only remembered because your name reminded me of Halo (the original game) and Rolos and Hulo
14:12	futile	the first two of which I only like
14:13	holo	futile, what are rolos and hulo?
14:13	futile	hulu.com
14:13	futile	(typo first time around)
14:13	futile	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolo
14:13	holo	i know that one.. always stating the fact i don't live in the us, so no fun for me
14:14	futile	most people arent in the us
14:15	holo	looks delicious
14:15	futile	it's in the uk too you know
14:15	futile	and elsewhere
14:16	holo	rolos are in the uk and elsewhere?
14:16	futile	holo: they were developed in the UK according to that article
14:19	holo	"Do you love anyone enough to give them your last Rolo?"
14:19	holo	i must say today was my first contact with the rolo cult
14:19	futile	Is there a Rolo cult?
14:20	futile	Wouldn't doubt it.
14:21	ToxicFrog	That's kind of alarming
14:22	ToxicFrog	I'd give someone my last rolo in a heartbeat, they aren't that tasty
14:22	jcromartie	holo: is that some kind of marketing attempt?
14:23	holo	just copy pasted from wikipedia
14:24	patchwork	How did rolos marketers get in the #clojure channel?
14:24	patchwork	Is not even IRC safe anymore?
14:25	ToxicFrog	awhat
14:25	holo	it's my 15 minute attention
14:25	pisketti	insidious
14:25	patchwork	I've heard of viral campaigns but this is ridiculous
14:26	futile	ToxicFrog: lies! they are quite tasty indeed
14:27	maleghast	Rolos are made by Nestlé so they are fundamentally EVIL
14:27	futile	Oops.
14:27	hyPiRion	Why is suddenly #candies renamed to #clojure?
14:28	hyPiRion	I have no idea.
14:28	maleghast	chuckle
14:28	ToxicFrog	We ran out of clojure.
14:28	ToxicFrog	There's none left.
14:28	futile	I didn't take into account that I need some way to tell if one group is the same as another.
14:28	ToxicFrog	So we had to find something to fill the channel with.
14:28	futile	Right now it literally compares the entire group-map.
14:28	ToxicFrog	Oh wait, futile has found some! We're saved!
14:28	futile	I guess that's fine though, right?
14:28	futile	Guys, look at this: https://www.refheap.com/15752
14:29	technomancy	strategic paren reserves
14:29	futile	How should anyone tell that test-1 and test-2 belong to the same group?
14:29	futile	Right now it just does (= (:group test-1) (:group test-2))
14:29	futile	Is that a stupid idea?
14:31	futile	I guess it's fine, although it kind of enforces that people probably can't reliably manually put ^{:group {...}} in their test-fn
14:31	futile	Thoughts, you people?
14:32	tomjack	look ma no macros https://www.refheap.com/600920453ce6bcb447988510b
14:33	tomjack	why oh why did the kanren people switch to scheme :(
14:34	futile	,(partial + 1 1)
14:34	clojurebot	#<core$partial$fn__4192 clojure.core$partial$fn__4192@140240a>
14:34	futile	,((partial + 1 1))
14:34	clojurebot	2
14:34	futile	Oh. So it's just like #()
14:35	justin_smith	what is? partial?
14:35	futile	Actually it literally seems to be #(apply ... %&)
14:35	futile	Yeah
14:35	futile	Ok.
14:35	justin_smith	yeah, the latter - almost
14:36	justin_smith	or maybe literally?
14:37	hyPiRion	no
14:37	hyPiRion	not literally
14:37	justin_smith	idiomatically, partial is often used by people who want currying, and #(apply _ %&) would not likely
14:37	justin_smith	hyPiRion: what would expose the difference?
14:40	hyPiRion	laziness.
14:43	hyPiRion	Well, I guess that's hard to show, because my example involves apply partial
14:45	hyPiRion	But you can apply partial with an infinite list
14:45	tomjack	$findfn inc 3 4
14:45	lazybot	[]
14:45	tomjack	why doesn't it find deliver, I wonder?
14:45	jweiss	you'r elooking for a fn that takes inc and 3 as args and returns 4?
14:45	justin_smith	so (apply partial + (range)) vs (apply #(apply + %&) (range)) ?
14:46	tomjack	jweiss: no, just curious why it doesn't find deliver
14:46	jweiss	tomjack: (deliver inc 3) returns 4?
14:46	tomjack	&(deliver inc 3)
14:46	lazybot	⇒ 4
14:47	jweiss	that is weird
14:47	jweiss	inc is not a promise
14:47	tomjack	hyPiRion: I don't follow
14:47	tomjack	&(#(apply take 3 %&) (range))
14:47	lazybot	⇒ (0 1 2)
14:47	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
14:48	hyPiRion	tomjack: How would the following work in #() form?
14:48	jweiss	tomjack: i would have expected it to return apply, not deliver
14:48	tomjack	$findfn inc [3] 4
14:48	hyPiRion	,(apply (apply partial take 10 (range)) (range))
14:48	lazybot	[]
14:48	tomjack	:O
14:48	clojurebot	#<OutOfMemoryError java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space>
14:48	jweiss	oh right, 3 wasn't a list
14:49	hyPiRion	oh what, that is supposed to work
14:49	tomjack	that doesn't make sense
14:49	tomjack	(partial take 10 0 1 2 3 4 5 ...)
14:50	amalloy	yeah, i agree. that's a nonsense partial, hyPiRion
14:50	hyPiRion	hush, I had some smart idea and then you guys came along and broke it
14:51	tomjack	partial is not literally #(apply ... %&) because there is no ... in core
14:51	amalloy	((partial bake idea) "#clojure")
14:51	tomjack	it's literally what it says right there in core.clj
14:51	hyPiRion	,(apply (apply partial (fn [& v] (take 10 v)) (range)) (range))
14:51	tomjack	which appears to be equivalent to what #(apply ... %&) is supposed to mean
14:51	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
14:53	tomjack	hmm, scratch that?
14:53	alandipert	piranha: https://github.com/tailrecursion/presioke contains all new hotness from hlisp/javelin world
14:53	jweiss	weird, i never looked at the impl for deliver before, it just calls its first arg with its 2nd. but the docs sure make it sound like it only works on promises, not IFn's.
14:54	jweiss	so deliver doesn't really do anything, you can just invoke the promise to deliver it.
14:54	technomancy	jweiss: clojure is chock-full of functions that do undefined things on arguments they're not documented to work with
14:54	amalloy	technomancy: that sounds like a correct description of every function ever
14:55	hyPiRion	yeah
14:55	technomancy	amalloy: every function lacking preconditions I guess?
14:55	hyPiRion	,(conj {:a :b} {:c :d}) ; woo!
14:55	amalloy	technomancy: every function including them too, surely
14:55	clojurebot	{:c :d, :a :b}
14:55	jweiss	technomancy: yeah, i know, i'm more surprised that deliver isn't even needed than by its undocumented feature
14:55	justin_smith	every function lacking preconditions in a language that is not statically typed?
14:56	murtaza52	would the datomic free version run on android ?
14:56	tomjack	alandipert: does flapjax really solve "pervasive use of ... shared, mutable state"?
14:57	technomancy	amalloy: throwing an assertion error is technically undefined I guess
14:57	alandipert	tomjack: if you're quoting me... yes?
14:57	technomancy	"You are technically right, which is the best kind of right."
14:57	tomjack	doesn't flapjax pervasively use shared mutable state?
14:57	technomancy	I mean unless the docstring calls it out
14:57	amalloy	technomancy: my point is that if it's not documented to work with arguments xyz, then any behavior it takes in response to xyz is undefined
14:57	alandipert	tomjack: the key with any attempt to mitigate is a library structured to separate the mutation from your application logic
14:58	alandipert	tomjack: the same way FP lang evaluators heavily mutate when they run your code, but the programming model they present tries to eschew immutability
14:58	technomancy	amalloy: I guess that works if you define "works" to include exceptions
14:58	jweiss	i have a hard time avoiding the mistake of assuming clojure would tell me if i did something crazy like accidentally pass a function to deliver.
14:58	justin_smith	in some languages "undefined" has a specific technical meaning (nostril demons)
14:58	alandipert	*eschew mutability
14:59	amalloy	justin_smith: provide an example of a language in which "undefined" means something other than "anything at all"
14:59	hyPiRion	amalloy: is it defined if you say it is undefined for any other values except xyz?
14:59	hyPiRion	it's very meta, after all.
14:59	jweiss	lol
14:59	jweiss	good question. is "undefined" a definition?
15:00	justin_smith	amalloy: well in that case I think clojure does a bit better than "undefined" with random function arguments
15:01	dobladez	technomancy: Is there a way to automatically activate a lein profile based on the OS type?
15:01	justin_smith	ie. if passing (+ nil nil) was an undefined behavior, crashing the vm would not be a bug
15:01	tomjack	alandipert: afaict flapjax is not capable of separating mutability from application logic
15:02	technomancy	dobladez: that's been discussed but not implemented. seems like a fine idea.
15:02	tomjack	I mean, it's miles better than what we had before
15:02	tomjack	if the goal is to mostly separate, makes sense that flapjax satisfies the goal
15:02	dobladez	technomancy: I'll try to find some time and try to do it myself. Any pointers? You think it's possible with a plugin or hook?
15:03	dobladez	I'm thinking... may be something more generic than "by OS type" would be "by JVM property" (say, via regex matching on a JVM property)
15:03	technomancy	dobladez: definitely possible with a hook, but it'd be better to put it in Leiningen itself. basically it comes down to changing the :default profile in the default-profiles atom in leiningen.core.project.
15:04	tomjack	oh, I see presioke is using javelin not flapjax?
15:05	hyPiRion	dobladez: what do you mean by jvm property though? By the jvm properties given to lein?
15:05	technomancy	dobladez: actually this would be very difficult in a plugin due to chicken/egg issues
15:05	dobladez	hyPiRion: No, I mean, you say "activate this profile if propery X matches Y"
15:06	dobladez	hyPiRion: you know, JVM system property "os.name" gives you the OS name
15:06	hyPiRion	yeah, and you can dispatch on java version probably too
15:07	dobladez	so, activating a profile by java system property is more generic that hardcoding it to be by OS
15:07	dobladez	right
15:07	hyPiRion	but I'm not sure whether I see the rationale for that behaviour.
15:07	hyPiRion	Well, I mean
15:08	dobladez	I do... I've used than in the past when using backported libs from JDK 1.6 to 1.5 (java.util.concurrency comes to mind)
15:08	tomjack	are flapjax and javelin meant to be used together in hlisp?
15:08	dobladez	(on maven)
15:08	tomjack	are they alternatives or complementary?
15:08	technomancy	in general I favour flexibility, but I'm also a bit wary of implicit profiles being added silently.
15:09	technomancy	that has historically been a pain point around lein repl
15:09	dobladez	no no, I don't mean adding implicit profiles
15:09	technomancy	well, not that the profile is implicit, but the activation is implicit? that is a fair bit different.
15:09	dobladez	I mean, having a way to activate an explicity profile automatically, given an "activation rule"
15:10	technomancy	yeah, and typically these would be present in project.clj, which makes them very visible.
15:10	technomancy	less so when in ~/.lein/profiles.clj, but I don't think it would be used for that as much
15:11	tomjack	oh I guess hlisp is now hoplon?
15:11	hyPiRion	hmm....
15:11	dobladez	say.. something like this on profile.clj: :profile-activation { :myprofile (when-jvm-property "os.name" "Linux") }
15:11	laliluna	@seancorfield: I checked the Jira issue of java.jdbc, but none of those seems to be a simple issue. The transaction thing sounds interesting, but I wonder if I could start with something simple like adding left join to the DSL.
15:12	hyPiRion	{:profiles {:profile ^{:when (fn [] (some-prop))} {profile-data-here}}} ?
15:13	hyPiRion	well, :when is kind-of a bad name perhaps.
15:13	technomancy	if you only want to match against system properties it's easy, but a more general way of declaring things might also be useful
15:14	technomancy	{:profiles {["os.name" #"Mac"] {:dependencies [...]}}} or something
15:14	tomjack	javelin seems to make even less sense for those goals than flapjax to me
15:15	technomancy	need to grab lunch; can continue this when I get back or in a github issue or list thread
15:15	hyPiRion	technomancy: well yeah, but what if you want to do something without that profile?
15:15	dobladez	ok... that would be inside the profile itself... I like that... may be some explicit :activation keyword to make it obvious
15:15	technomancy	hyPiRion: the predicate only determines whether it's included it the :default profile; you can still `with-profiles` to get a different set of profiles.
15:16	hyPiRion	oh, so something like `with-profile -default` then?
15:16	hyPiRion	or explicitly use a pair of profiles
15:18	dobladez	hyPiRion: hmm I think of cases where I what `with-profile xyz` to turn off the auto-activated ones... and other cases where I'd want the auto-activated ones still active :-\
15:18	dobladez	s/I what/I want/
15:20	hyPiRion	dobladez: well, you can do `with-profile default,xyz ...` to use the auto-activated ones, and `with-profile xyz ...` to turn them off
15:21	hyPiRion	If I understood technomancy correct
15:22	dobladez	right, but I mean I'd like (in some cases) for the auto ones to always auto-activate
15:22	dobladez	and leave the option to do -xyz to stop them from doing so
15:22	seangrove	Wow, there's no :as :xml in clj-http?
15:23	hyPiRion	well, then use `with-profile +default` or something
15:23	hyPiRion	it sounds like a very complex task anyhow
15:23	hyPiRion	but not impossible with aliases
15:24	dobladez	hyPiRion: thing is, I want it to be automatic... otherwise, we are back to where we are today :-)
15:25	hyPiRion	dobladez: what? they are on by default. You explicitly set them off by specifying something like `with-profile abc`, and leave them on by specifying `with-profile +abc` or `with-profile default,abc`
15:25	dobladez	my current use case: I need different dependencies depending on OS type. This is always the case for this particular project. So, I'd use a couple of os-specific profiles. However, I also use profiles for other things (dev, prod, etc)
15:28	dobladez	today lein doesn't have that - or + prefix on profiles, right ?
15:29	tomjack	hmm I think I see why minikanren is full of macros
15:30	tomjack	not lazy so you need to use a macro to avoid being to eager..
15:35	tomjack	YES! https://github.com/thheller/clojurescript/commit/ac764ec98b1e90af3667047cef8ca292e2a9eb58
15:38	dakrone	seangrove: xml is... xml
15:39	dakrone	seangrove: I (thankfully) don't have a lot of experience parsing it, but if you'd like to add support for it, it might be useful
15:39	dakrone	seangrove: that being said, output coercion is pluggable, so you could alway implement it
15:43	futile	How would you guys solve this?
15:43	futile	https://www.refheap.com/15758
15:43	futile	Recursion or something?
15:44	arrdem	futile: so you are trying to express that some set of tests triggers others?
15:45	futile	arrdem: no, they have a shared "context" aka group
15:45	futile	which for now doesnt mean anything except how they're grouped/nested
15:45	futile	Basically, given all the terminal-nodes of a tree, which contain data about their parents, how do you build up the tree?
15:46	arrdem	so how to invert a bottom up directed graph into a top-down parent -> children tree?
15:47	futile	Sounds right.
15:47	deg	Is there an idiomatic HOF that applies a function to each value in a map, building a new map with the results?
15:48	futile	What I love about this is that the inputs and outputs are simple and understandable.
15:48	futile	What I don't love is how hard it is to implement.
15:48	futile	(for a beginner like me)
15:48	deg	Basically map for maps or update-in that acts on all elements.
15:50	XPherior	Has anyone in here had any experience using Clojure Cascalog and Pail from the up and coming Big Data book?
15:50	XPherior	I know there's a #cascalog IRC channel, but it's quieter than a ghost town in there.
15:50	arrdem	futile: pondering... this should be recursive and cute if my gut tells the truth.
15:50	chronno	deg: I don't know one, but you can do something like (into {} (for [[k v] {:a 1 :b 2}] [k (inc v)]))
15:51	futile	arrdem: hmm recursion, yeah sounds right, but a little scary
15:51	futile	arrdem: I can't see any way without recursion really
15:51	llasram	XPherior: I use Cascalog pretty extensively. Pail, not so much
15:51	futile	arrdem: btw I updated it, refresh to see
15:51	deg	chronnon: yup, thanks. That's exactly what I'm doing already but it feels a bit awkward... both verbose and does a round-trip into a seq and back to a map.
15:52	futile	arrdem: updated to make it easier to understand
15:52	XPherior	llasram: My place is trying to use Hadoop in an append-only fashion. Can't for the life of us figure out how to work with Pail.
15:53	arrdem	futile: I think that the approach is going to be to follow the parent link all the way back up, then group children based on their parent value.
15:53	XPherior	llasram: Can't even find a good example on how to write a custom tap. :/
15:53	amalloy	arrdem: "all the way back up" will work for trees of depth one, but not deeper trees
15:54	llasram	XPherior: In what sense do you mean "append-only"?
15:54	amalloy	i think you walk over the node-list once, building up a list of maps like {:node-id x, :parent y, :children [a b]}
15:54	XPherior	llasram: Only ever reading a Hadoop file, or adding to the end of it.
15:54	amalloy	then you go over that list, and for each node whose :parent is nil, you recursively produce its tree
15:54	arrdem	amalloy: yep that's what I was thinking.
15:55	XPherior	That's supposedly the point of Pail. "Updating" a Hadoop file in a safe way.
15:55	llasram	XPherior: Taps aren't so bad. There's pretty much just an interface in Cascading you implement, generally in Java. Cascading itself has lots of examples
15:55	arrdem	amalloy: you just solve the root location better
15:55	futile	amalloy: the first part makes sense, the second part still confuses me
15:55	XPherior	llasram: I've seen them. I'm not sure why, but it's not clicking.
15:56	arrdem	futile: he's saying that the children of node N are (let [id <something>] (filter #(= (:parent %1) id) nodes))
15:56	llasram	XPherior: Oh. You never append to actual individual files in Hadoop. Hadoop distroes with 2.x code or with backported patches do support it for e.g. HBase, but you still can't do it from MapReduce jobs
15:56	llasram	XPherior: Instead you just add to a collection of files, usually with something like a new directory per day
15:57	arrdem	futile: so you just apply that to every node, recuring as long as the resulting list of children is non-empty
15:57	XPherior	llasram: Hm, yeah. I get that. But Pail is supposed to make that transparent.
15:57	llasram	XPherior: No slight to all the great work nathanmarz has done with Cascalog and Storm, but Pail seems to be something they made up for their book and nobody actually uses
15:57	futile	Oh, and then you start with those whose parents is nil!
15:58	futile	amalloy, arrdem: that sounds perfect, thanks! Trying now :)
15:58	XPherior	llasram: Heh, yeah I got'cha. Do you have any custom Tap code that I can look at?
15:58	cbp``	deg: reduce-kv is slightly more efficient than that
15:58	futile	Raynes: please implement elisp and all emacs features in refheap so I can use it easilier without refheap.el
15:59	Raynes	lol
15:59	Raynes	I'll get right on that futile.
15:59	futile	Thanks.
16:00	XPherior	llasram: Do you recommend we just straight up work with HDFS?
16:00	llasram	XPherior: Unfortunately nothing recent and open source.... But really, the implementations in Cascading are no more complex than anything else would be
16:00	XPherior	Hm, alright.
16:00	llasram	I need to drop off IRC for a meeting, but would be happy to chat more about Clojure<->Hadoop later
16:01	XPherior	No worries. Thanks for the info, llasram!
16:02	arrdem	futile, Raynes you're looking in the wrong place! go help port emacs to clojure!
16:02	futile	Actually that doesn't sound like a half-bad idea.
16:02	tomjack	lazy logic :) https://www.refheap.com/7cb54abc300fc4f470f919774
16:02	futile	Not that I have the time or knowledge to do it, but it would by default be pretty portable, and Clojure seems like a fine language for an editor.
16:03	cbp`	Isn't that kind of what lighttable aims to be?
16:03	arrdem	tomjack: what are you building? a new logic system?
16:03	tomjack	60 LOC
16:04	tomjack	I'm just porting Control.Monad.Logic as an experiment
16:04	futile	cbp`: no, that's a completely different editor.
16:04	futile	cbp`: emacs is great because of its extensibility.
16:04	arrdem	cbp`: ibdknox would answer that better than I can but LT does provide the "editor as a single object" structure I'd expect to see in a clojure-idiomatic *macs
16:04	tomjack	eventually will either try to improve core.logic, or, yeah, new logic thing.. but the latter seems unlikely
16:04	futile	cbp`: or maybe LT is extensible too. i didnt look into it
16:04	arrdem	tomjack: mmkay cool!
16:04	cbp`	light table aims to be extensible too I think
16:05	tomjack	minikanren seems so unmini..
16:05	futile	cbp`: oh then maybe its awesome.
16:05	tomjack	eh actually it is really small
16:05	futile	I just remember really hating LT's concept of "move a snippet of code around on your screen, detached from the file it's in"
16:05	tomjack	just conceptually big
16:06	cbp`	I'm not sure about the whole implemented in clojurescript thing though. I'd like a multithreaded editor
16:06	futile	cbp`: for what?
16:06	futile	cbp`: emacs got along just fine without multi-threading for years
16:06	futile	the vast majority of things I do with my editor can be single-threaded, and the few that can't should realistically not be part of an editor
16:07	cbp`	And now emacs live brings along a bunch of git utilities that slow my emacs to a crawl while searching for a file :(
16:07	arrdem	futile: LIEZ. out of band compile and code analysis is awesome!
16:07	Bronsa	isn't emacs still single-threaded?
16:07	futile	arrdem: oh.
16:07	futile	see, i told you im not very smart about this stuff
16:09	futile	The main feature I love about emacs is that it's really just an extensible text-navigator/manipulator, which works on any text. If LT doesn't have that it's not going to be so fun to use.
16:10	futile	never mind. i dont know what im talking about.
16:10	cbp`	I was trying to teach some friends clojure and got them to try lighttable for the instarepl and "easy connect" to projects but they preferred notepad++ + lein repl :P
16:11	futile	heh
16:14	amalloy	that tree-building thing was a fun little exercise, futile: https://www.refheap.com/78caa69723d40f0f04139e531
16:14	futile	amalloy: Well I'm glad you had fun solving the hardest algorithmic part of test2 remaining :)
16:15	futile	amalloy: I was still stuck on (group-by (comp :group meta) test-fns)
16:16	SegFaultAX	futile: The easiest way would be to take the transitive closure of the dependency graph, then group accordingly.
16:16	futile	SegFaultAX: that sentence assumes I've been to college, doesn't it?
16:16	futile	:P
16:17	Raynes	It assumes you know how to google.
16:17	SegFaultAX	futile: Or that you've read I suppose.
16:17	amalloy	futile: all of wikipedia is available to you
16:17	Raynes	I haven't been to college either, bro.
16:17	futile	oh.
16:17	pisketti	Raynes: Are you planning to?
16:17	amalloy	that may be a better approach, SegFaultAX
16:17	Raynes	pisketti: I have a full time job.
16:18	Raynes	So nope.
16:18	pisketti	Raynes: Yes. Full time job and college studies don't go well together. I know
16:19	gzmask	question about uberjar: I have an ring/compojure web which has some static js/css files under resource folder. when I conjured my uberjar, it appears that I lost those files when I run only the standalone jar file.
16:20	Raynes	I don't need college, pisketti, I have an amalloy.
16:20	pisketti	Fair enough
16:21	amalloy	if just being near me were a substitute for a college education, i'd switch careers to "standing next to people, as a service"
16:21	Raynes	Better switch careers then./
16:21	pisketti	amalloy: If you could scale that a bit, you'd be a millionaire
16:21	cbp`	gzmask: are you referring to them by url?
16:21	CaptainLex	pisketti: He doesn't need to scale, just find the right demographic
16:22	gzmask	cbp`: by relative url
16:22	gzmask	cbp`: is the jar file containing the static public files or I'll have to externally host them?
16:25	SegFaultAX	amalloy: You could be the first SNPaaS!
16:25	amalloy	SegFaultAX: i can't help but feel you're calling me a snap-ass, and if i knew what that meant i'd be offended
16:26	cbp`	gzmask: the jar contains the files
16:26	SegFaultAX	amalloy: Relevant (I think) http://xkcd.com/37/
16:26	SegFaultAX	amalloy: For some reason that's what it made me think of )
16:30	arrdem	pisketti: he lurks here doesn't he? I think he's scaling pretty well, but the monitization needs work
16:30	cbp`	gzmask: you should refer to them by like: "/css/foo.css"
16:35	gzmask	cbp`: i figured it out. I use gaka/css to generate the static file. so I'll have to run the function before I uberjar my app
16:35	gzmask	cbp`: I assume the function is ran at compile time, which is when I run lein uberjar. but it is not being run
16:36	gzmask	can I specify a function to be run at 'lein uberjar" ?
16:39	jchauncey	i have a deftype that i want to create in another namespace whats the best way to do that
16:40	jchauncey	ive tried (my.ns.MyType. args) in the repl and that dosnt work
16:41	SegFaultAX	jchauncey: Is this a namespace you control or are you trying to monkey patch an external ns?
16:41	SegFaultAX	(If it's the latter, why would you want to do that?)
16:42	jchauncey	i control it
16:42	SegFaultAX	jchauncey: Then just open the file and add it?
16:43	jchauncey	i just have a generic http api call that creates a wrapper type for convience, normally i only create them in 1 spot but in this case i need to do it in another namespace
16:51	tomjack	futile: arrdem: do we really need multithreading to handle that?
16:51	tomjack	i.e. 'concurrent vs parallelism' or whatever
16:51	tomjack	concurrency.
16:52	tomjack	does LT run on node.js?
16:53	tomjack	or does it open a browser
16:53	tomjack	..I guess the latter
16:53	callen	tomjack: it's a node.js desktop app toolkit that works by rendering a web page.
16:53	callen	tomjack: it doesn't really "open" a browser.
16:53	SegFaultAX	tomjack: What they should have said is that emacs needs and async solution. The underlying model doesn't matter in particular.
16:54	gzmask	how do I serve dynamic content in compojure as css type? I use (get "/aaa.css" (some_fun)) and browser outputs the css as plain text
16:54	tomjack	sweet
16:54	tomjack	so we really don't need multithreading for any of tat
16:54	tomjack	that
16:54	tomjack	just if you actually want to use multiple cores, then we'll have to have multiprocessing or something :(
17:02	futile	amalloy: this is what I was thinking, except it doesn't quite work yet: https://www.refheap.com/15764
17:02	futile	re tomjack and arrdem too
17:03	futile	Is this an inefficient/terrible solution?
17:03	tomjack	that `:nested (partial attach-children all-groups)` sticks out
17:03	SegFaultAX	tomjack: multiprocessing? No.
17:03	futile	Also I think attach-children is wrong, something about needing to return a seq of maps rather than a map. But it's kind of confusing me
17:03	futile	tomjack: yeah that's a bit ugly
17:03	tomjack	not that it's ugly
17:03	amalloy	futile: you've made it O(n^2) for no particular reason
17:03	tomjack	who ever calls :nested?
17:04	SegFaultAX	tomjack: But potentially some implementation of green threads.
17:04	futile	amalloy: okay so it is inefficient then.
17:04	futile	amalloy: it was mainly because I couldn't understand your solution, being so really smart.
17:04	tomjack	SegFaultAX: in node.js?
17:04	futile	tomjack: its the way it nests groups
17:04	SegFaultAX	tomjack: I thought we were talking about emacs.
17:04	tomjack	no, LT
17:05	technomancy	SegFaultAX: there are OS threads implemented on a branch
17:05	SegFaultAX	tomjack: For what?
17:05	SegFaultAX	technomancy: ^
17:05	tomjack	well, I wasn't :). I was talking about someday (today?) when LT is calling out to git and compilers and shit
17:06	futile	tomjack: yeah this thing is really broken, never mind
17:06	SegFaultAX	My mistake then.
17:07	tomjack	cbp` unfairly dissed cljs and I had to defend it :)
17:12	futile	amalloy: (your solution being the thing that's really smart; dang ambiguity)
17:23	gzmask	http://stackoverflow.com/q/17097254/914774
17:36	arohner	what is the proper way to refer to a protocol in another namespace w/ (extend-protocol)?
17:36	arohner	I'm doing (extend-protocol foo.bar/Baz ...), and getting "Could not resolve Protocol"
17:37	arohner	I've required foo.bar
17:47	mindbender1	arohner: just tested it. It works for me
17:47	mindbender1	how are you referring to the protocol
17:48	technomancy	devn: how goes?
18:07	mikerod	Why does (require 'clojure.main) seem to hang forever?
18:10	mikerod	Sometimes I suppose.
18:21	tomjack	core.async-logic seems kind of like a nightmare, hopefully I'm going about it wrong
18:22	tomjack	seems like with cljque it would have been a mechanical translation from the sync code
18:32	mindbender1	,((fn [& coll] (when coll true)) nil)
18:32	clojurebot	true
18:33	amalloy	mindbender1: (list nil) is truthy, of course
18:34	mindbender1	amalloy: that causes NullPointerException
18:34	hyPiRion	what, no
18:34	amalloy	huh?
18:34	amalloy	no it doesn't, that's a crazy claim
18:34	mindbender1	when passed to for
18:34	hyPiRion	,(list nil)
18:34	clojurebot	(nil)
18:34	hyPiRion	what passed to for?
18:35	mindbender1	,(list nil)
18:35	clojurebot	(nil)
18:35	mindbender1	try it
18:35	hyPiRion	,(for [a (list nil)] [a a])
18:35	clojurebot	([nil nil])
18:37	mindbender1	sorry
18:37	mindbender1	file-seq was the culprit
18:37	mindbender1	I had a file-seq inside for
18:39	hyPiRion	yeah, you have to doall those
18:40	mindbender1	hyPiRion: ok thanks
19:03	tomjack	looks like I basically reimplemented part of core.logic
19:03	tomjack	I knew that should have been the case
19:03	tomjack	but I didn't understand take*
19:05	tomjack	now I understand why map-sum and -inc and conde and all that :)
19:07	tomjack	back to debugging my core.logic program :(
19:21	dnolen	tomjack: heh, were you playing around with lazy sequences or something?
19:22	SegFaultAX	So I asked this the other night but unfortunately I dozed off and didn't see the replies...
19:22	SegFaultAX	What are some good task/work queues for Clojure. I've played around with Die Roboter, but it's essentially unmaintained at this point.
19:23	SegFaultAX	It doesn't seem like there is a solid winner, either. Is everyone just rolling their own solutions for async job processing?
19:26	muhoo	SegFaultAX: i've seen examples in clojure programming of using a blocking queue for that. i was going to go that route.
19:26	jodaro	SegFaultAX: do you need a client/server type thing?
19:26	jodaro	or just in process?
19:27	jodaro	i've used gearman off and on in the past
19:27	jodaro	http://www.gearman.org/gearman
19:28	jodaro	and started writing a clojure lib for it: https://github.com/joshrotenberg/clearman
19:28	jodaro	but
19:28	jodaro	it definitely suffers from the "hasn't been looked at in a while" syndrome too
19:28	SegFaultAX	I'm not particular about the implementation. Being able to shove jobs into a queue and have a worker pool (somewhere) process them.
19:29	SegFaultAX	Think of like, Sidekiq or Resque or Celery
19:29	mthvedt	segfaultax: doesn't java itself have things for async processing in simple use cases?
19:29	SegFaultAX	mthvedt: Sure. But this is #clojure
19:30	SegFaultAX	mthvedt: It's stunning to me that there isn't a standard solution for this.
19:30	SegFaultAX	[in Clojure]
19:31	mthvedt	segfaultax: yes, it would be nice if there was a clojure lib, but there's no law saying you can't use java
19:31	jodaro	if something out there works already and its not pure clojure
19:31	jodaro	then it probably makes sense to just write a wrapper/implement the protocol
19:31	mthvedt	in fact one design goal of clojure was to make it easy to use "java for java things"
19:31	jodaro	i think i went pretty "clojure-y" in my implementation
19:32	SegFaultAX	I think both of you are missing the point a little.
19:33	muhoo	i mean, isn't this what send-off is for?
19:33	muhoo	i.e. agents?
19:33	SegFaultAX	Why doesn't Clojure have a standard "async job queue" solution already. I don't care if it's new or something based on Java etc.
19:33	SegFaultAX	muhoo: Well, no. Because you probably don't want to waste cycles on your app server processing background jobs.
19:33	tomjack	well there's core.async..
19:34	SegFaultAX	tomjack: Nope.
19:34	muhoo	SegFaultAX: so wait, did you mean across servers, or in process?
19:34	SegFaultAX	muhoo: The former, probably.
19:34	muhoo	there's rabbitmq
19:34	tomjack	'standard'?
19:34	tomjack	as in, 'popular'?
19:34	SegFaultAX	muhoo: Sure, as the queue part.
19:34	muhoo	and a good clojure wrapper for it, IIRC, if you're going cross servers
19:35	SegFaultAX	muhoo: There's more than just the queue part to running a worker pool though.
19:35	tomjack	dnolen: https://www.refheap.com/2883107ad83013c34a6acf7cd
19:35	tomjack	somehow I acquired the delusion that run* didn't return a lazy seq
19:35	tomjack	(in core.logic)
19:36	SegFaultAX	muhoo: Also "across servers or in process" is a false dichotomy. There /might/ be a working running on the same server but not in the same process, for example.
19:37	muhoo	SegFaultAX: then i'm not sure. i've used java blocking queue for messages. i'm about to start playing with worker queues in clojure right now. examples i've seen use either agents or java blockingqueues.
19:37	SegFaultAX	muhoo: You realize that agents and blockingqueues are two /parts/ of the solution right? And really don't have anything to do with each other.
19:39	tomjack	are you saying you want a contrib library for that?
19:39	tomjack	or just a popular project?
19:39	tomjack	and presumably it's a bit more than a library?
19:40	SegFaultAX	tomjack: Let me give you an example. In the Ruby world, there are a number of standard libraries for this.
19:40	SegFaultAX	Delayed job, sidekiq, resque, etc.
19:41	tomjack	I guess bin/resque is the "bit" I was referring to
19:42	jodaro	resque is redis backed
19:42	jodaro	so already you've got some other piece
19:42	SegFaultAX	Sure, you could use redis as the transport or queue.
19:42	SegFaultAX	But that's just part of the problem.
19:42	jodaro	wow, sidekiq has a fancy dashboard
19:43	jodaro	https://github.com/jxa/resque-clojure
19:43	jodaro	looks unloved
19:43	jodaro	but
19:43	jodaro	could be a good starting point
19:44	tomjack	hmm, why does the resque readme never mention redis config?
19:44	tomjack	oh I was looking at the dev readme
19:45	tomjack	so wow resque-web is a whole deal
19:45	SegFaultAX	tomjack: Resque is less than ideal. Stick with sidekiq.
19:45	SegFaultAX	tomjack: It's really inefficient.
19:46	jodaro	oh yeah
19:46	jodaro	another fancy dashboard
19:46	muhoo	SegFaultAX: well i'm curious, since it seems i'm about to have to tackle what sees to be a similar problem.
19:46	SegFaultAX	Anyway, the point is it baffles me that this isn't a solved problem already.
19:46	SegFaultAX	This is an absolutely common use case.
19:46	tomjack	do you think you can solve 'the' problem with one project?
19:46	jodaro	SegFaultAX: well, it is solved, just in a few places in various states of "solved"
19:46	SegFaultAX	tomjack: Sure.
19:46	tomjack	your problem, surely
19:47	technomancy	SegFaultAX: part of the point of die roboter is that you can do it in ~100 lines, so rolling your own isn't the worst thing in the world
19:47	SegFaultAX	jodaro: From a community standpoint it isn't solved, then.
19:47	jodaro	gearman is protocol based which is kind of cool
19:47	SegFaultAX	jodaro: You have a bunch of half-assed or unmaintained solutions.
19:47	jodaro	but you don't have clojure all the way down
19:47	jodaro	then again
19:47	SegFaultAX	technomancy: Well and the fact that it uses in-band job specs because they're just clojure forms.
19:47	jodaro	if you liked the protocol you could write the server in clojure as well
19:48	SegFaultAX	As opposed to out-of-band job specs.
19:48	technomancy	SegFaultAX: code-as-data, yeah
19:48	muhoo	https://github.com/bdesham/simple-queue actually seems designed for what i need
19:48	SegFaultAX	technomancy: That's a useful feature of Die Roboter. But it has some rather obvious shortcomings.
19:48	SegFaultAX	technomancy: But it doesn't seem like there is a "standard" solution for "I need an async job/work queue"
19:48	jodaro	SegFaultAX: yeah, i agree, although i'd say that often half-assed is more like good starting point
19:49	SegFaultAX	jodaro: Usually not.
19:49	technomancy	SegFaultAX: we used that model for petabyte-scale indexing pipeline, so if there are shortcomings inherent in sending the job over the wire, I don't think they're obvious =)
19:49	jodaro	in a glass half full kind of way
19:49	SegFaultAX	technomancy: Evaling jobs seems less than ideal.
19:50	SegFaultAX	technomancy: Was this for Pulse?
19:50	technomancy	SegFaultAX: no, before heroku
19:50	muhoo	eval? o_0
19:50	technomancy	pulse uses redis because it's OK being lossy
19:50	SegFaultAX	muhoo: Die Roboter uses clojure forms to convey job specifications (eg raw code over the wire)
19:52	technomancy	the only practical downside I can think of is that you don't get line numbers for exceptions in die-roboter's model
19:52	tomjack	I think I like that idea, but I want my services to know their SHA
19:52	tomjack	if you solve my problem, it's ok that you don't get line numbers. just take the job and run it locally. you will get the same error.
19:52	technomancy	tomjack: oh absolutely; I would never deploy that to a mixed cluster
19:53	technomancy	I don't think it's the responsibility of the job system though
19:53	muhoo	SegFaultAX: OIC, it's using rabbbitmq, and so it's dealing with text
19:53	tomjack	right
19:54	muhoo	doesn't seem like a limitation of die-roboter, seems like a limitation of using a MQ service and having to serialize the job.
19:54	SegFaultAX	Doesn't seem very DRY either. Having the option to send the job on the wire is nice, but also chews up a lot of extra bandwidth re-transmitting the same data over and over.
19:54	tomjack	well, yeah
19:55	tomjack	transact the job code into datomic :)
19:55	technomancy	SegFaultAX: why?
19:55	technomancy	just have the job delegate to an existing defn
19:55	muhoo	abusing datomic as a message queue?
19:55	tomjack	no
19:55	tomjack	abusing it for code distribution
19:55	technomancy	SegFaultAX: it's a superset of a model that requires predefined job declarations
19:56	muhoo	oh, hmm. sure, no security implications there :-)
19:56	SegFaultAX	technomancy: Well I hadn't thought of that, good point.
19:57	SegFaultAX	technomancy: Would you use die roboter again for this type of thing?
19:57	technomancy	SegFaultAX: if I needed guaranteed delivery of idempotent jobs, I would dust it off, yeah.
19:58	technomancy	if you don't need guaranteed delivery, I'm not sure I'd tie myself to AMQP because the protocol is very baroque
20:00	technomancy	I feel like the hard part in that kind of system is dealing with errors and making them highly visible; maybe if I had the luxury I would read up on Erlang and OTP and lean more in that direction.
20:02	tomjack	kafka and kestrel seem much more approachable to me
20:02	SegFaultAX	Maybe porting die-roboter to Redis would be worthwhile.
20:02	tomjack	technomancy: what did you mean 'lossy'?
20:03	tomjack	losing jobs?
20:03	technomancy	tomjack: with AMQP if you don't ack a message after a given timeout the worker is assumed lost, so the message is put back on the queue for another
20:03	tomjack	but there's some problem with redis that prevents doing this?
20:04	technomancy	yeah, all you can do with redis is pop an item off a list
20:04	SegFaultAX	tomjack: Redis doesn't broker messages like that. So yes.
20:04	tomjack	I had struggled to try to understand how the redis-backed queues were doing it
20:04	tomjack	but assumed there must be some way I hadn't found
20:04	technomancy	well redis isn't HA to begin with
20:05	technomancy	so I don't think you're ever going to get the same kind of guarantees that you do with amqp
20:05	technomancy	even if you build some kind of "in-progress" quarantine set for claimed jobs
20:06	callen	SegFaultAX: I still think a "Jiraph for task queues" would be nice.
20:06	SegFaultAX	technomancy: For my use case I basically never need to be guaranteed that a job ran. And the jobs usually don't return data to the thing that enqueued them.
20:06	SegFaultAX	So for me, Redis is a totally worthwhile backend for a job queue.
20:06	tomjack	this was my point about solving 'the' problem
20:07	tomjack	could you build one project which handled e.g. both cases?
20:07	SegFaultAX	tomjack: Sure, you could extend die-roboter to be agnostic.
20:07	technomancy	SegFaultAX: my noodling near the end of my involvement with die-roboter was some mildly-nutty handling of serializing exceptions so they can get punted back to the sender
20:07	SegFaultAX	tomjack: And degrade appropriately based on the transport.
20:08	mthvedt	can storm be turned into a job queue
20:08	tomjack	so you figure out some abstraction which is general enough to cover everyone's use case
20:08	technomancy	if you don't care about timeouts and error handling you could probably toss like half of the lib
20:08	mthvedt	storm is clojure
20:08	technomancy	mthvedt: storm is crazy complicated
20:08	jodaro	https://github.com/ptaoussanis/carmine
20:08	tomjack	well, if you can, please do :)
20:08	jodaro	that looks pretty awesome
20:09	jodaro	i bet you could write a bad ass work/job queue with that and redis and a weekend of clojure hacking
20:10	technomancy	jodaro: I should put that on the seajure hack night projects list
20:10	technomancy	I bet you could have something that works in 2 hours
20:11	jodaro	probably
20:11	jodaro	great
20:11	jodaro	there goes real work
20:11	technomancy	yeah, now that you've thought of it you have to go implement it
20:11	jodaro	needs a cool name
20:11	technomancy	thems the rules
20:11	jodaro	thats one hour right there
20:11	technomancy	(that's how slamhound happened anyway)
20:13	callen	mthvedt: turning storm into a job queue would be the most extreme case of overkill I've ever heard of.
20:13	callen	mthvedt: that said, you could translate workflows into storm topologies.
20:13	tomjack	storm plugs in to job queues
20:13	callen	mthvedt: but why do you need a clustered real-time infrastructure for it?
20:13	tomjack	well, queues..
20:13	mthvedt	callen: was spitballing
20:13	jodaro	brew install redis; lein new werken
20:14	jodaro	halfway there
20:14	callen	mthvedt: sure. funny thought though.
20:14	technomancy	probably won't be able to beat die-roboter in the theme song department but you can give it your best shot
20:18	hiredman	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqqCyM6v6B8
20:18	callen	Raynes: http://inchingforward.blogspot.com/2013/06/adding-markdown-support-to-clabango.html
20:19	tomjack	I wonder if closure's advanced is deterministic in a useful way
20:19	jodaro	challenge: accepted. https://github.com/joshrotenberg/werken
20:20	jodaro	maybe i'll call in sick tomorrow
20:20	jodaro	call in hacking
20:21	callen	jodaro: task queue lib?
20:21	jodaro	yeah
20:21	callen	SegFaultAX: that's some expert-mode Tom Sawyer dude.
20:21	callen	SegFaultAX: teach me your secrets.
20:21	jodaro	spur of the moment "holy shit! that sounds way more fun than work!" project
20:22	jodaro	[18075] 13 Jun 17:17:57.697 # Server started, Redis version 2.6.13
20:22	jodaro	3/4 of the way there
20:22	jodaro	heh
20:22	callen	jodaro: I know that feel. I have a backlog of projects like that. #sadface
20:22	jodaro	totally
20:22	callen	jodaro: one request - pluggable backends ala Jiraph.
20:22	jodaro	hmmm
20:22	jodaro	well ....
20:22	jodaro	the challenge was kinda redis specific
20:22	technomancy	I thought about doing pluggable backends for die-roboter
20:22	callen	jodaro: satisfy a set of methods/protocol that make it work, then it works with different backends.
20:22	technomancy	but IMO it's just not worth it
20:22	jodaro	mainly because carmine looks so rad
20:22	technomancy	different queues have different semantics
20:23	callen	technomancy: it's an itch for me because I had to work on a job queue about a billion items long once.
20:23	jodaro	callen: i'll definitely try to keep that in mind
20:23	callen	technomancy: so stuff like RabbitMQ/Redis was pretty much straight out.
20:23	callen	jodaro: but even a simple redis task queue would be very nice
20:23	jodaro	baby steps
20:23	callen	SegFaultAX: have you tried Carmine's?
20:24	technomancy	rabbit can keep queues on disk these days
20:24	jodaro	i've actually only toyed with redis in the past
20:24	jodaro	so
20:24	jodaro	it will be a learning experience for me
20:24	callen	technomancy: from my tests, rabbit choked several orders of magnitude away from a billion.
20:24	jodaro	my coworker is all hot on redis, though
20:24	callen	jodaro: redis is sexy.
20:24	jodaro	maybe i can get him involved and he can get his clojures on
20:24	callen	jodaro: you'll like it.
20:24	jodaro	yeah it seems pretty nice
20:25	jodaro	lua support
20:25	jodaro	that could come in handy here
20:25	callen	technomancy: rabbit's really not made for long-lived job queues.
20:25	technomancy	you'll end up with something a lot simpler with redis because there are certain guarantees you simply can't make =)
20:25	jodaro	heh
20:28	jodaro	i'll be able to guarantee your job might get run
20:28	jodaro	seems good enough
20:28	devn	hm, is there a way to destructure cleanly in a ->>
20:29	jodaro	between the repl and redis-cli, this is a darn nice environment, i'll say that
20:29	callen	jodaro: redis is a happy place.
20:31	devn	it'd be cool to do something like (->> {:a 1 :b 2} [[{:keys a b}] [a b]]) => [1 2]
20:31	muhoo	what's the appeal of redis? it's a kv store, right?
20:31	callen	devn: I'm not sure, if you figure it out, let me know.
20:31	callen	muhoo: data structures as a service with atomic commands.
20:32	devn	it's really not ->> anymore if it does that
20:32	devn	it's just a shame I can't just drop a let into -> or ->>
20:33	justin_smith	,(->> {:a 1 :b 2} ((fn [{:keys [a b]}] [a b])))
20:33	clojurebot	[1 2]
20:33	callen	muhoo: sproc'ish lua scripting, low latency, nice cli. It's just a very low overhead and smooth experience to use redis most of the time as a developer.
20:33	muhoo	callen: thanks
20:33	callen	muhoo: so queues for example, in Redis are trivial because it as things like LPUSH and RPOP
20:33	jodaro	strings, hashes, lists, sets and sorted sets.
20:33	jodaro	nice
20:34	callen	muhoo: bitmaps, for which it was good commands for doing population counts, etc.
20:35	callen	muhoo: http://blog.getspool.com/2011/11/29/fast-easy-realtime-metrics-using-redis-bitmaps/
20:35	callen	muhoo: http://redis.io/commands
20:36	callen	muhoo: I talked to the guy on the phone, I should be talking to him again about the project tomorrow.
20:43	tomjack	callen: that is a neat trick
20:44	tomjack	is the requirement for sanity that you've got an idempotent monoid?
20:45	tomjack	hmm, I dunno what I mean
20:46	tomjack	oh, yes, a=(ab)b <=> a=a(bb)
20:46	tomjack	well, that's wrong too, but anyway neat trick
20:48	callen	tomjack: wait, what did I do?
20:48	tomjack	the bitset blog post
20:48	callen	oh
20:48	tomjack	the rest of what I said was meaningless I think
20:48	tomjack	obviously it's gonna work out when you're working with a set of bits..
20:50	tomjack	but 'setbit' is dangerous
20:54	tomjack	I think every time I've said "garbage-in garbage-out" about clojure to someone, I've thought "I don't believe what I am saying"
20:55	bbloom	tomjack: it's a trade off
20:55	bbloom	tomjack: if you want to prevent garbage in, you need to add asserts or static verification
20:55	bbloom	that comes with complexity
20:55	bbloom	or performance impact
20:56	tomjack	complexity of implementation?
20:56	tomjack	for the language author
20:57	bbloom	no
20:57	tomjack	for language users?
20:57	bbloom	depends on the particular restriction you're trying to impose
20:58	bbloom	for example ##(keyword "x y") could incur a performance penalty by regex matching it's input
20:58	lazybot	⇒ :x y
20:59	tomjack	that's a good one
20:59	bbloom	that would be complexity for the language implementor, who needs to consider all those possible error cases & handle them & throw nice errors
20:59	bbloom	you could imagine a type system with variants of asset
20:59	bbloom	like you could have assert, check, and assume
20:59	bbloom	assert throws an error if some condition isn't met
20:59	bbloom	check would check the condition & then annotate the symbol as meeting the condition or not
21:00	bbloom	and assume would just say "eh, fuck it" and opt in to garbage in / garbage out
21:00	tomjack	eh, I remain unswayed
21:00	bbloom	i'm not suggesting you actually do this
21:01	tomjack	I mean by your keyword example
21:01	bbloom	i'm saying that there are dynamic properties that you'll never be able to check or verify either satically OR at runtime or that you wouldn't want to check
21:01	bbloom	there can be much more complex things to check
21:01	mindbender1	garbage in garbage out is the law of truth
21:02	tomjack	these things I do not want in my language
21:02	bbloom	let's say i have a function that accepts a lazy sequence and needs to know that the number of entries in the sequence is even
21:02	bbloom	but the seq does not fit in memory
21:02	bbloom	you can keep a count & throw an error… AT THE END
21:02	bbloom	you can't throw an error up front
21:02	bbloom	that's garbage out
21:02	bbloom	you got a lazy seq out that was invalid
21:03	bbloom	garage in / garbage out is the only sensible design for a dynamic language without a type system when performance is critical
21:04	tomjack	ok, yeah
21:04	tomjack	that I can agree with
21:04	tomjack	that a static type system adds complexity.. dunno about that
21:04	bbloom	shrug i think that optional typing is the way of the future, but we're not quite there yet :-P
21:05	tomjack	I've thought about that, but I see one problem
21:05	bbloom	s/optional/pluggable/
21:05	bbloom	clojure has a type system. it has like 9 types: 8 java primitives plus "object" :-)
21:05	tomjack	making things the way I want them would require e.g. fixing the behavior of keys
21:06	bbloom	i assume you're talking about my msg to the mailing list just now? are you in favor of my suggestion?
21:06	tomjack	it's hard to say
21:06	brehaut	bbloom: and arrays?
21:06	tomjack	I think so
21:06	bbloom	my hesitation now was jean's msg that i overlooked
21:07	tomjack	but if I get the optional typing I want, there will be many other problems in clojure.core
21:07	bbloom	apparently keys is, logically, (partial map first)
21:07	bbloom	but that is bugged too
21:07	tomjack	I can't fix them all, it'd be a different language. so, oh well :(
21:07	bbloom	so i want either my proposal, or fixing keys to properly mimic (partial map first)
21:07	tomjack	I'd definitely rather have your proposal
21:08	bbloom	me too :-P
21:08	bbloom	but the jean's comment basically means that my proposal is a breaking change, so i don't think we can get it
21:08	tomjack	exactly
21:08	tomjack	no one can even tell if they rely on garbage-out behavior in previous versions
21:09	bbloom	in the absence of my proposal, i don't really care about fixing the illusion of (partial map first), even though i think it is in fact a bug in that interpretation of keys
21:09	tomjack	I always wondered why sometimes calling keys on the wrong thing caused craziness in my repl
21:09	bbloom	tomjack: yea, relying on garbage-out is the biggest issue facing dynamic language APIs
21:09	bbloom	brb
21:10	tomjack	and yet if you try to embed a language which attempts to solve some of these problems inside clojure, people won't use it, because it's not clojure :)
21:11	tomjack	I guess the approach could be to bootstrap inside clojure and then fork off
21:13	tomjack	..oh, yes, like bodol
21:15	papachan	,(cl-format nil "~{~R~^, ~}" [1 2 3 4])
21:15	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: cl-format in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
21:16	bbloom	,clojure.pprint/cl-format
21:16	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.pprint, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
21:16	papachan	,(require '[clojure.pprint :refer [cl-format]])
21:16	clojurebot	nil
21:16	papachan	,(cl-format nil "~{~R~^, ~}" [1 2 3 4])
21:16	clojurebot	"one, two, three, four"
21:17	bbloom	bwa? you can require/refer in clojurebot?
21:17	papachan	bbloom: yes
21:19	bbloom	,(require '[clojure.core :refer (inc) :rename {inc cl-format}])
21:19	clojurebot	#<IllegalStateException java.lang.IllegalStateException: cl-format already refers to: #'clojure.pprint/cl-format in namespace: sandbox>
21:19	bbloom	,(require '[clojure.core :refer (inc) :rename {inc cl-format2}])
21:19	clojurebot	nil
21:19	bbloom	odd, so i can mess up clojurebot's names if i'm the first person to import a namespace?
21:20	bbloom	,clojure.walk/prewalk
21:20	clojurebot	#<walk$prewalk clojure.walk$prewalk@636c8d>
21:26	Denommus	damn
21:26	Denommus	I was able to run a clojure app in android
21:27	Denommus	but now I want my launcher activity to be a Java activity, but no matter what I try, the application crashes. And since I don't have a backtrace or something similar, I have no idea on what's happening
21:57	Denommus	I think I understood the problem
21:57	Denommus	when my clojure application is compiled, it defines a class called "Application", which is then used by the AndroidManifest
21:58	Denommus	but this class is being generated by android code
22:02	papachan	Denommus: any github to see your project?
22:06	Denommus	papachan: no, I'm just starting
22:06	Denommus	*this class is being generated by clojure code
22:06	papachan	Application class?
22:06	Denommus	yes
22:06	Denommus	with the defapplication macro
22:06	Denommus	(defapplication com.spell.chat.Application)
22:07	Denommus	I think clojure needs this class to run correctly, I can't just remove it from AndroidManifest
22:07	Denommus	but if I try to put a bootstrap Java activity, it crashes. I guess because it tries to run before the Application class is even loaded
22:08	Denommus	is there any tutorial covering how to use a bootstrap Java activity?
22:08	papachan	generally you can extends the Application Class
22:09	Denommus	yes. Clojure is doing that with (defapplication com.spell.chat.Application)
22:09	Denommus	but I don't know what would be the implementation under the hood
22:10	Denommus	I think the implementation under the hood actually loads the clojure environment, so that clojure code can run
22:11	Denommus	difficult sittuation
22:11	clojurebot	clojure is the best
22:11	Denommus	have you ever done android development with clojure, papachan?
22:12	papachan	Denommus: not yet
22:12	Denommus	I'm successful if I don't use a java activity as my launcher
22:12	Denommus	but then the application takes 5~10 seconds to load
22:13	beppu	What could it possibly be doing to make it take that long to load?
22:13	callen	that sounds about standard for Android Clojure apps.
22:13	Denommus	it loads the whole clojure environment. That's expected, actually
22:14	Denommus	the problem is not taking that long to load, I could be away with it in my application because I could use the time to log the user in asynchronously
22:14	Denommus	while showing some loading animation
22:15	Denommus	but, to do that, I'd need a Java launcher, which I don't seem to be able to use
22:19	Denommus	well, I'm going home
22:19	Denommus	bye
22:21	dcooper8	so is emacs/swank still used for clojure?
22:22	technomancy	dcooper8: swank still works but isn't actively maintained; nrepl.el is recommended instead
22:22	brehaut	http://technomancy.us/163
22:23	brehaut	thanks technomancy, now i look like an idiot
22:24	bbloom	heh, that domain name w/ that tld sounds like a verb
22:24	bbloom	problem? technomancy it!
22:25	technomancy	the guy who owns technomancy.org is a php hacker
22:25	brehaut	im sorry to hear
22:26	technomancy	oh, no it's just python
22:26	technomancy	my bad
22:26	brehaut	maybe he got a clue since you last looked
22:26	bbloom	could be worse. there could be a gay canadian porn star with the same name as you (as there is for me)
22:26	brehaut	awkward
22:26	bbloom	you can imagine how that would be confusing if you were looking for my github account, right? :-P
22:27	bbloom	the day i got that google alert was… surprising
22:27	brehaut	haha
22:28	technomancy	heh: http://www.kindle-maps.com/blog/how-to-walk-across-dublin-without-passing-a-pub-full-publess-route-here.html
22:29	bbloom	technomancy: awesome.
22:30	bbloom	they say "here's the route", but i wonder if they could show the union of all the routes
22:30	bbloom	like is there only one route? is this a bug that one pub closed?
22:30	brehaut	bbloom: but then they'd have to write more code with open street maps javascript, which is roughly comparable to performing surgery on yourself with only a darning needle
22:34	bbloom	surely the solution is mobile pubs.
22:34	bbloom	motorized beer carts
22:34	technomancy	you mean ... epubs?
22:34	brehaut	~rimshot
22:34	clojurebot	Badum, tish
22:35	brehaut	open source ipa http://yeastieboys.tumblr.com/post/52208987616/digital-ipa-recipe
22:35	brehaut	good luck sourcing the hops
22:40	brehaut	related: http://yeastieboys.co.nz/beer/gunnamatta-ipa/ earl grey IPA
22:50	sineer	lamina looks pimp! Exactly what I needed and much more!! and the doc... amazing stuff
23:00	dpwright_	I'm trying to create a function inside a macro and add it to a list during execution of that macro (ie at compile time)
23:01	dpwright_	I have the body of the function stored inside a variable called body, so that (fn [] body) doesn't work because what I really want is (fn [] ~@body) or something, except since this is happening as part of the macro and not the value returned from that macro, it's not quasiquoted or anything like that, so ~ style syntax won't work
23:02	dpwright_	is it possible to do this? Or am I being stupid and should I just return commands to do that from the macro and have them execute outside of the macro like a sane person would do?
23:02	dpwright_	actually, I think that's probably the answer, isn't it? :-P
23:16	cgag	i'm playing with clojurescript and node-webkit and getting this error when i try to connect with the browser repl
23:16	cgag	Uncaught Error: URI file:/robots.txt is invalid for field ppu
23:16	cgag	I can get rid of it by just manually deleting any lines referencing robots.txt in the compiled js, has anyone run into this and solved it in a more elegant way?
23:26	futile	Now then.
23:45	futile	I'm not gonna lie about it: programming is hard.
23:58	futile	This whole thing feels...
23:58	futile	...futile