#clojure – 2013-05-31

2013-05-31

00:00	callen	tieTYT: It's usually not worth it unless you're intentionally writing something complex and ignoring an excellent JS framework (granger has a good reason for this, you probably do not)
00:01	tieTYT	well I want to make a game with the html5 canvas
00:01	tieTYT	this tutorial makes it look easy: http://nakkaya.com/2012/01/31/clojurescript-canvas-a-simple-breakout-implementation/
00:01	callen	tieTYT: then definitely no.
00:02	tieTYT	can you elaborate on the pain?
00:02	callen	tieTYT: unless the game is intentionally trivial and a throwaway, that is.
00:02	callen	tieTYT: is it a throwaway learners project?
00:02	tieTYT	yeah, but it may grow into something more
00:02	callen	erm, you have to make a choice.
00:03	tieTYT	it's to teach myself clojurescript. I was going to make a snake on steroids, not a WOW
00:03	callen	if you do it in cljs, but decide to make it something serious, you'll probably have to rewrite.
00:03	tieTYT	why?
00:03	clojurebot	Why is startup slow is busy compiling the `for` macroexpansion
00:03	tieTYT	why does clojurebot do that? Is it ever useful?
00:03	callen	sometimes.
00:04	callen	tieTYT: cljs doesn't win you more than it costs you outside of some very narrow use-cases (d3 visualizations and a wrapper come to mind)
00:04	callen	tieTYT: something more performance intensive like an html5 game cannot be in something like cljs if there are practical performance concerns.
00:04	callen	practical meaning, "I cannot be forced into a rewrite when/if I hit a brick wall"
00:04	bbloom	at least not without SIGNIFICANT cleverness :-)
00:05	callen	macros can be abused to get around some of the performance issues, but not all and you're going to end up debugging errors you don't understand.
00:05	callen	it's usually not worth it.
00:05	tieTYT	what would you recommend?
00:06	callen	frontend stuff is somewhat constrained in what you can get away with, unlike backend.
00:06	tieTYT	that's a shame. Because it seemed like a great opportunity to learn clojure better
00:06	callen	depends on the project. HTML5 games commend the use of a good framework.
00:06	callen	complex SPAs should probably be in AngularJS.
00:06	jacortinas	Is there a best practice out there regarding changing behavior between local development and production deployed code? For example, I need to not use s3 when doing file uploads locally during development, but use s3 in production or staging.
00:06	callen	simple stuff suffices with jQuery and vanilla JS.
00:06	tieTYT	what's SPA?
00:07	callen	tieTYT: single-page app.
00:07	callen	tieTYT: implies a more complex/serious frontend application.
00:07	tieTYT	ah right
00:07	tieTYT	yeah that's what I was planning
00:07	dnolen	bbloom: tieTYT: you really don't have to be that clever to write fast CLJS, you just write what you would if you were writing fast JS.
00:08	dnolen	and many interesting games don't really require obsessing about perf
00:08	jacortinas	If you really needed to you could write optimized loops in plain javascript, things like that.
00:08	callen	tieTYT: erm, you were planning a game. I cased that out separately.
00:08	dnolen	jacortinas: loop/recur becomes optimized loops in JS
00:08	bbloom	dnolen: you need significant cleverness to write idiomatic-ish code
00:09	bbloom	(that is also fast)
00:09	jacortinas	yeah
00:09	dnolen	bbloom: no more cleverness that you need in JS
00:09	jacortinas	yup
00:09	tieTYT	getting a lot of peer pressure here to not even look into it
00:09	dnolen	loops recur, arrays, objects, arithmetic
00:09	tieTYT	dnolen: I don't think I know JS well enough to be clever with JS
00:09	bbloom	shrug if you're gonna avoid all of clojure's libraries and types, you might as well just write coffeescript
00:09	ehaliewicz	well you have macros, which can be pretty great for optimizations
00:09	callen	tieTYT: then the situation is even worse because you really need to know the underlying JS.
00:09	ehaliewicz	depending on what you're doing
00:09	callen	tieTYT: especially with the obtuse error messages.
00:09	jacortinas	Writing a game would honestly end up mostly like plain javascript ( I think ), you end up using things like requestAnimationFrame
00:10	callen	tieTYT: you're better off learning vanilla JS through this project.
00:10	tieTYT	callen: even more than angular?
00:10	callen	Angular is not a programming language, it's a framework. You still need to know JS and to have a good reason for using it.
00:10	bbloom	when writing clojure, you can get away with minimal Java knowledge. when writing cljs, you probably really still want browser & js experience
00:10	callen	you haven't described a project that commends the use of Angular.
00:11	bbloom	significnat
00:11	tieTYT	i have significant java knowledge actually
00:11	callen	tieTYT: I concur with what bbloom just said. but java is besides the point here.
00:11	bbloom	i was speaking generally
00:11	tieTYT	that sounded arrogant
00:11	dnolen	bbloom: i disagree - you can write a high performance game the same way you would in JS, write you perf sensitive stuff low level - everything else at a high level
00:11	dnolen	this is more or less how CLJS itself is written
00:11	callen	back to the point, you need to know the DOM and JS.
00:12	tieTYT	i know it a bit, but it sounds like i don't know it well enough to attempt clojure
00:12	bbloom	dnolen: what is clear no brainer perf stuff to you is significant cleverness to other folks :-)
00:12	tieTYT	clojurescript i mean
00:12	bbloom	dnolen: remember that you deeply understand the output of any particular piece of cljs code
00:12	dnolen	bbloom: OK, but I think if you're going to do a high perf game you probably know something about JS perf anyhow
00:12	dnolen	I don't really know secret tricks, I just know JS
00:12	callen	dnolen: he needs to know JS in order to get anywhere with CLJS. I don't believe you to be disingenuous so I have to think that you're really that far removed from the typical programmer's experience.
00:13	tieTYT	but vanilla JS sounds pretty bad. Shouldn't I at least use jquery so that I don't have to figure out browser inconsistencies?
00:13	callen	curse of knowledge and all that.
00:13	callen	tieTYT: laughable notion.
00:13	dnolen	tieTYT: if you going to use jQuery you don't care about perf anyhow
00:13	brehaut	dnolen: knowing JS is knowing how to herd a bag of angry cats though; thats a huge leg up
00:13	bbloom	tieTYT: if you are writing a game w/ canvas, browsers are consistent enough
00:13	callen	tieTYT: jQuery doesn't spare you from knowing JS, it just cleans up DOM API inconsistencies.
00:13	callen	tieTYT: and JS isn't that unpleasant, you have first-class functions.
00:13	tieTYT	yeah I know a little bit about it. I'm just rusty
00:14	bbloom	i generally just check http://caniuse.com/ before i use anything that isn't wrapped up neatly in the browser APIs
00:14	dnolen	tieTYT: in anycase, JS or CLJS - it possible to write games
00:14	bbloom	the known issues data is invaluable
00:14	dnolen	tieTYT: I don't disagree with the sentiment that to get far in CLJS you need to be comfortable in JS
00:15	tieTYT	yeah I'm not super comfortable
00:15	callen	JS and DOM knowledge are a prerequisite regardless, might as well conquer that first.
00:16	callen	amalloy: are you familiar with the libnoir/noir session middleware?
00:16	amalloy	not really. i vaguely remember there being a with* macro of some kind
00:17	amalloy	like, (with-session foo) is vaguely like (binding [session (atom {})] foo)
00:21	tieTYT	callen: do you think your opinion on this would probably change if I asked the same question in 5 years? IE: do you think cljs is just too immature for this right now?
00:22	callen	cljs could improve enough for my opinion to change, I ping nolen periodically about one of the core dealbreakers.
00:22	bbloom	i dunno, i think it's astonishing to me that there are professional software engineers who have no idea how the C calling convention works :-P
00:22	tieTYT	callen: what's that?
00:23	callen	source maps, for one.
00:24	dnolen	tieTYT: regardless of callen's opinions, plenty of people find CLJS preferable over JS even w/o source maps
00:25	tieTYT	i don't evekn know what source maps mean
00:25	dnolen	tieTYT: mapping compiled JS back to original source for debugging purposes
00:25	callen	it means knowing what the fuck just threw that opaque error.
00:25	tieTYT	ah
00:25	akhudek	source maps will be grand
00:25	tieTYT	i would imagine coffeescript has the same issue
00:25	dnolen	tieTYT: Michal Marcyk will be working on that for GSoC
00:25	dnolen	tieTYT: JS has the same issue for that matter
00:26	callen	tieTYT: nope.
00:26	callen	has source maps and better error messages.
00:26	dnolen	callen: having used CS quite a bit it doesn't have better error message
00:26	dnolen	unequivocally CLJS has better error messages, it actually has some
00:27	dnolen	tieTYT: CLJS is def rough around the edges, no question about that
00:28	callen	another issue that biases my response is that I pretty much only use JS in relatively complicated frontend apps that virtually require the use of AngularJS. The integration story for CLJS with AngularJS needs improvement.
00:28	dnolen	if you think AngularJS is a good idea, I don't really
00:29	dnolen	but interop in general is important
00:29	akhudek	I definitely prefer writing cljs to js. The biggest pain points for me are rough tooling and a lack of source maps.
00:29	callen	dnolen: It's incredibly compelling if you want to move past the pyramid slave labor model for building labor-intensive frontend apps.
00:29	dnolen	callen: eye roll
00:30	tieTYT	i kind of have this same complaint about clojure actually. I don't know if it's a CCW issue, but the stack traces usually don't help for shit
00:30	egghead	dribnet did some stuff that makes interop from cljs easier callen
00:30	egghead	https://github.com/dribnet/strokes/tree/master/src/cljs
00:30	tieTYT	they often point to the namespace definition instead of the cause of the problem
00:31	akhudek	tieTYT: are you using clojure.stacktrace?
00:31	tieTYT	if (pst) works I am, aren't I?
00:31	akhudek	usually you get a line number of the offending code
00:31	amalloy	bbloom: anecdotal evidence for you. i have a vague idea that `extern "C"` means the caller pushes the arguments on the stack, and the callee pops the stack when he's done. but these things can be looked up in books, on the rare occasion you need to know them, so memorizing them doesn't strike me as an important measure of a programmer
00:32	egghead	clojure.stacktrace is new in 1.5 right?
00:32	akhudek	tieTYT: http://richhickey.github.io/clojure/clojure.stacktrace-api.html
00:32	tieTYT	one time I accidentally removed the brackets around the arguments of a function definition and the error was on the ns definition. Was really hard to debug
00:32	akhudek	I use (e)
00:32	tieTYT	I thought those were the same
00:32	egghead	ritz can help w/ debugging too
00:32	akhudek	maybe they are, dunno
00:32	bbloom	amalloy: that's the minimal level of understanding i'd expect a professional engineer to have
00:32	bbloom	amalloy: many don't.
00:32	tieTYT	akhudek: hey, i'm the newb here, not you :P
00:32	akhudek	in any case, I almost always get a line number
00:33	dnolen	akhudek: that's a very old link - most of that stuff is in clojure.repl now
00:33	amalloy	i dunno, i think it's becoming a lot less necessary to even know that much. but i suppose i don't feel strongly about it
00:33	egghead	blindly manipulating symbols
00:34	akhudek	dnolen: ah, didn't realize. I've been using that since… 1.2?
00:34	dnolen	tieTYT: the worst bugs are the ones at the level of reading/parsing - ns forms, fn forms since you don't get sensible error information
00:34	bbloom	amalloy: i was mostly trying to convey the fact that i like people to have at least a cursory understanding of 2 or 3 levels of abstraction below them
00:34	dnolen	tieTYT: except for those error messages are usually pretty accurate
00:34	tieTYT	dnolen: yeah
00:35	amalloy	i agree with that
00:35	tieTYT	i'm spoiled by java/haskell's compiler
00:35	amalloy	i'm not sure C is only three levels below most people anymore, but something is, and they should know about it
00:36	bbloom	amalloy: on a mature enough cross platform VM (ie JVM or a browser) that's probably true
00:36	tieTYT	back to cljs, i used to write a lot of GWT. It was impressive how little you needed to know about JS with that
00:37	callen	GWT was horrific.
00:37	bbloom	amalloy: i'm not sure it's so much discrete "levels" as it is some metric of abstraction leakiness and layering usefulness :-)
00:37	tieTYT	i don't like writing apps that GWT is a good fit for
00:38	alex_baranosky	how can I print a Double but force it to not print like 1.0E8
00:38	amalloy	$google java format number
00:38	amalloy	lazybot????????
00:38	clojurebot	lazybot is echo ~lazybot
00:39	bbloom	amalloy: http://www.raynes.me/logs/irc.freenode.net/clojure/2013-05-30.txt look at the last line
00:39	bbloom	amalloy: something went horribly wrong in bot land
00:40	amalloy	at 3:12, huh? weird. that was well after the linode emergency
00:40	amalloy	&1
00:42	alex_baranosky	amalloy: thanks.
00:43	amalloy	&1
00:43	lazybot	⇒ 1
00:43	amalloy	$mail Raynes lazybot was busted; i've restarted him in your screen session
00:43	lazybot	Message saved.
00:44	bbloom	&"I AM ALIVE"
00:44	lazybot	⇒ "I AM ALIVE"
00:44	metellus	lazybot is echo ~lazybot
02:10	technomancy	argh; mysterious nrepl.el bugs
03:12	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/nrepl-discover
03:31	ddellacosta	how do you format a regexp in Clojurescript?
03:31	ddellacosta	I'm trying variations on this: #"/blackrock/i" and it's not working.
03:36	ddellacosta	getting closer, but can't get flags to work...?
03:36	ddellacosta	(clojure.string/replace "FOO" (js/RegExp. "foo", "i") "oof")
03:42	ddellacosta	argh
03:42	ddellacosta	https://www.refheap.com/15166
04:12	noprompt	Raynes: are you here?
04:13	noprompt	or amalloy_
04:32	jro__	what is status of clojure.core.reducers?
04:35	clgv	jro__: it is included in clojure 1.5.1
04:52	asaleh	question: are core.constraints superset of preconditions?
05:40	jaley	I have a web service, one of things it serves is an expensive operation (generation of a big image). I want to give users access to this, but I don't really want my server running this ~20 second operation on every click. A 5-minute old snapshot would be fine… Any implementation suggestions? I was looking at core.cache for the TTLCache, but AFAIK the way to use this is by putting the cache in an atom/ref/whatever, which means in the case of
05:40	jaley	cache miss I'm still likely to have multiple threads generating the same image, only to have all but one discarded when the transaction retries?
05:45	arrdem	jaley: one hack (and it is a hack) is to have a worker thread that renders your page every 5s, updating a cache atom.
05:46	arrdem	atoms update, well atomically so you are guranteed to get content out the end, but there is nothing more than a probability of getting the "newish" content.
05:46	callen	jaley: matryoshka dolls.
05:46	arrdem	callen: lol
05:46	callen	I'm quite serious.
05:46	callen	composable caches backed by memcached or redis work great.
05:47	jaley	arrdem: Hmm, yeah… I'm thinking actually if I use an agent, requests will be serialised, so I won't have the problem of two requests doing the work at the same time, but I'll need to initialize the agent with a sensible starting state
05:48	jaley	callen: yeah it's also worth noting that this project isn't out of the toy stages yet :D
05:49	callen	jaley: nobody caches in-memory on the server, that's silly.
05:49	callen	jaley: use memcached or redis.
05:51	jaley	callen: the image is on disk, I'm caching a string - the file name, of which there will be max 10
05:51	callen	jaley: why do you need to cache a filename?
05:52	arrdem	jaley: I'd think that the file name is nearly free to compute, you want to memcache the image content
05:52	callen	seriously
05:52	jaley	OK, so I have this library, it sucks in a load of data and writes a jpeg to disk
05:52	jaley	that takes 20 seconds, ish
05:54	jaley	I just have it write to a randomly named tmp file and delete it later
05:55	callen	jaley: this doesn't really make sense.
05:55	jaley	I just don't want to do all that work for every request. This tool will be used by approx 100 users, it's an internal company tool, doesn't need web scale, but may have to handle 2-3 concurrent requests for the same image
05:55	jaley	I'd rather, when handling 3 requests for the same image, it didn't generate it 3 times
05:55	callen	jaley: you should be storing the images in a database
05:56	arrdem	callen: why bother? that's way heavyweight for what he's looking at
05:56	jaley	i think that might be over-engineering a 100 user tool?
05:57	arrdem	jaley: frankly it sounds like a crontab entry and some bash scripts would be a better fit than a clojure server :/
05:57	arrdem	* mix an apache httpd instance in for good measure
05:57	callen	it would take me less time to just stash the data in postgres than anything else that's been suggested
05:57	callen	short of stashing the base64 in a redis server
05:58	jaley	whether writing to a DB or to disk, I still have to solve the concurrency issue
05:59	callen	the database solves that problem if I haven't missed anything.
05:59	callen	I don't know why you'd assume databases can't handle multiple readers and writers. That's a huge chunk of why they're so useful.
05:59	jaley	I have an image, whether a file or blob in a db, and a timestamp. If it's more than n minutes old or not there, I want to regenerate it and return the new one. Else return the existing one. I don't want more than one request (i.e. thread) generating the same image.
05:59	callen	jaley: redis has auto-expiring keys
06:00	callen	jaley: set the 5 minutes or whatever key expiry you want on the value.
06:00	callen	jaley: if you try to GET the key and it's not there, regenerate.
06:00	jaley	callen: so two threads concurrent GET the same key and it's not there for either of them
06:00	jaley	callen: then what?
06:00	arrdem	callen: sure, then you hammer someone with a 20s latency after a 5m delay
06:01	arrdem	jaley: it would seem that both get hammered
06:01	callen	last guy in wins unless he wants to do a final pass check before stashing the final result
06:01	jaley	arrdem: right, exactly what my question was about avoiding :P
06:01	callen	to answer what arrdem is saying, there are a few ways to handle that.
06:01	callen	you can either generate the cache as a batch, or you can trigger per image.
06:01	callen	What will work for you will depend on how much data is involved.
06:04	callen	so you can setup auto-expiry in postgres with subscribers to trigger functions
06:04	callen	image expires? trigger gets called. subscriber to that trigger responds and regenerates the cache.
06:05	callen	alternately, use EXPIRE and redis pub/sub to do more or less the same thing.
06:05	callen	jaley: ^^
06:10	jaley	callen: ok, I have plan involving agents which I'm going to try out before I commit to too many hours work here :)
06:10	jaley	callen: thanks for the help
06:12	callen	jaley: my suggestion will take less time than hacking it up yourself - but good luck anyway.
06:22	rbarraud	wow - whole lotta leavin' goin' on :-/
06:22	callen	rbarraud: prooooobably a netsplit.
06:23	rbarraud	or they be sensitive souls...? ;-)
06:23	rbarraud	arrr
06:30	talios	'lo rbarraud
06:31	rbarraud	howdy talios
06:32	rbarraud	what excitement is afoot in your neck'o'the woods his fine QBWeekend? :-)
06:32	talios	not much - I forgot it was on ;)
06:32	talios	birthday yesterday - old age ;p
06:32	talios	might go see Star Trek, and Iron Man 3 tho
06:32	rbarraud	yeah - 21 already eh? Tempus Fugit! :-)
06:33	rbarraud	nearest pic theatre here is ~28km away
06:33	rbarraud	:-/
06:33	rbarraud	Apple TV FTW! ;-)
06:33	talios	where are you based?
06:33	rbarraud	Patea - more specifically, Whenuakura :-)
06:34	rbarraud	~60km north of Wanganui
06:34	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
06:34	rbarraud	not exactly Action Central
06:34	talios	when did you move there? or have I just been delusional that you were Auckland based
06:34	rbarraud	mind u i could've had a brewski or 2ski t the Bowling CLub in Patea had I felt so inclined tonight :-)
06:35	rbarraud	I've been kind of exiled here since start of Jan, but coming up ~every 4 weeks or so for appts
06:35	rbarraud	reduced outgoings here accom-wise
06:35	talios	ahh
06:35	rbarraud	i'd like to be back up there in the thick of the action and opportunities though
06:36	rbarraud	meanwhile intending to dispose of a lot of vintage-y stuffz before i return
06:36	rbarraud	unfortunately, ARC doesn't work with physical objects ;-)
06:40	rbarraud	weak POBoxOfStuffz *oldstuffbox ;
06:41	rbarraud	oldstuffBox = nil ;
06:41	rbarraud	poof!
06:41	rbarraud	too easy! ;-)
06:41	rbarraud	if only
07:18	rbarraud	talios: Are there any Code Retreats or the like on this weekend? - and are you in NA or AKl?
07:19	talios	in Auck, no code lounges planned this weekend no
07:19	babilen	Could somebody explain why, say, https://github.com/clojure/tools.reader does not declare a dependency on clojure in its pom as detailed in https://github.com/talios/clojure-maven-plugin -- Is this supposed to be handled by the parent pom.contrib ? If the latter, why does tools.reader mention clojure-maven-plugin at all?
07:21	babilen	talios: Oh, I was just about to file a bug against clojure-maven-plugin -- It seems as if the latest available version of clojure-maven-plugin is 1.3.17, but only releases up to 1.3.15 are tagged in git. Is that intentional?
07:22	talios	babilen - LIES! ( as he types git push --tags into iTerm) :)
07:22	babilen	heh, okay :)
07:22	talios	babilen - not intentional no :)
07:22	babilen	yeah, that did it -- thanks!
07:22	talios	was that the bug report, or am I expecting something else ? :)
07:23	babilen	No, that was it. :)
07:23	talios	coo.
07:23	babilen	I'd be happy about a comment regarding my earlier question though (if you have the time and know something about it)
07:24	talios	which question? ( i may have missed that )
07:25	babilen	Could somebody explain why, say, https://github.com/clojure/tools.reader does not declare a dependency on clojure in its pom as detailed in https://github.com/talios/clojure-maven-plugin -- Is this supposed to be handled by the parent pom.contrib ? If the latter, why does tools.reader mention clojure-maven-plugin at all?
07:25	talios	oh found it right there :)
07:25	babilen	hehe, well ..
07:26	talios	hrm - thats a good question actually, cause it doesn't actually declare a parent pom either
07:26	Anderkent\|away	pom.contrib does in fact add a clojure dependency
07:26	talios	ah it does - its just in the middle :)
07:26	talios	yes - the parent pom declares that dep
07:26	Anderkent\|away	I'm confused on how your project.clj and the pom.xml are out of sync tho
07:27	Anderkent\|away	project.clj declares :parent pom.contrib 0.0.26
07:27	Anderkent\|away	pom has it 0.1.2
07:27	talios	project.clj and pom.xml are independent
07:27	talios	afaik the lein builds are totally separate to the clojure builds
07:27	talios	er maven builds
07:28	talios	maven is used pretty much solely for releases
07:28	babilen	talios: Okay, but the parent pom mentions clojure-maven-plugin as well. Why is that repeated in tools.reader pom?
07:28	Anderkent\|away	babilen: to control the configuration
07:28	talios	babilen - mmm, it has custom configuration for <namespace>clojure.tools.reader.impl.ExceptionInfo</namespace>
07:29	talios	babilen - that -could- be handled by a property, and made common, but different contrib's may have more namespaces, or different configs
07:29	talios	to be honest - this is the first time I've looked at the contrib poms :)
07:29	talios	at least, first time in about 2 years
07:30	Anderkent\|away	talios: having two descriptors of your project be out of sync (and building against different parent poms :O) seems like a bad idea for me...
07:31	Anderkent\|away	esp. since the pom can be generated from project.clj
07:31	talios	is lein's parent a pom tho? or is it a lein project?
07:31	talios	I've never used lein :)
07:31	talios	well, ok I like - I've used it to bootstrap a 5 line script
07:32	talios	lie even. I have no idea how lein works.
07:32	Anderkent\|away	talios: lein uses maven as the backend. The parent is a pom
07:32	talios	Anderkent\|away - I knew it used maven underneath ( tho kinda assumed it may use Aether now ), but didn't know its parents were poms. In that case, it does seem wrong to have different parents
07:32	babilen	talios: Okay, thank you - I see much clearer now.
07:33	Anderkent	well, I don't think the parent is used for anything other than pom generation
07:34	talios	last time I made a pom from lein for that mini script, it didn't even put the clojure-maven-plugin in there...
07:35	Anderkent	it doesn't by default, because the purpose of doing lein pom is to get a project descriptor, not a maven build pom. But you should inherit the clojure-maven-plugin bindings from the parent pom
07:35	Anderkent	or you can add it manually by puting pom-injections into project.clj
07:35	talios	true true
07:35	talios	not my projects tho :)
07:35	Anderkent	:)
07:36	talios	I didn't realize contrib still used it till I was interviewing ambrose the other month for the podcast
07:36	Anderkent	it as in maven?
07:36	talios	as in clojure-maven-plugin
07:37	Anderkent	right
07:39	Anderkent	I wish I could pretend not to understand why people still use maven... But we're still chugging along with a monster maven build even though every single dev would like to switch to lein :) momentum is a king
07:40	SomeOtherGuy	Hey guys! Can anyone explain to me how to use the filter command in clojure?
07:40	babilen	SomeOtherGuy: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/filter has some examples -- What are you having problems with?
07:40	clgv	SomeOtherGuy: use a predicate the evaluates to true for the elements you want to keep in the given collection
07:40	Anderkent	SomeOtherGuy: you give it a function that returns truthy for values you want to keep, and a collection
07:41	Anderkent	,(filter odd? [1 2 3 4 5])
07:41	clojurebot	(1 3 5)
07:41	clgv	SomeOtherGuy: like this ##(filter odd? (range 10))
07:41	lazybot	⇒ (1 3 5 7 9)
07:41	Anderkent	why is it always `odd?` :P
07:41	talios	Anderkent - on a mixed java/clojure project maven still works best I find. Also - one reason: maven-release-plugin. Nothing else has anything suitable to match it.
07:41	clgv	because the question was odd ;)
07:41	talios	at least, not as a standard plugin
07:41	SomeOtherGuy	Okay, for example If I want the first 60 numbers that is a multiplicate of 7?
07:42	clgv	&(take 60 (filter #(zero? (mod % 7)) (range)))
07:42	lazybot	⇒ (0 7 14 21 28 35 42 49 56 63 70 77 84 91 98 105 112 119 126 133 140 147 154 161 168 175 182 189 196 203 210 217 224 231 238 245 252 259 266 273 280 287 294 301 308 315 322 329 336 343 350 357 364 371 378 385 392 399 406 413)
07:42	SomeOtherGuy	My brother just gave me that task to figure out yesterday. I found a solution but he also told me I can solve it with filter command. Can't stop thinking about it. I'm a total newbie.
07:43	Anderkent	talios: `lein-release` does something similar, but yeah I guess that is a good point
07:43	SomeOtherGuy	It works! :D Great! Thanks. Will try to figure out what all of that means now. Thanks a lot!
07:44	talios	Anderkent - well lein-release will tag, but I don't think it covers the deploy to maven repo, otherwise - why wouldn't contrib just use lein-release
07:44	clgv	SomeOtherGuy: #(zero? (mod % 7)) is the divisibility check
07:45	babilen	talios: One more question (if I may): I am in the process of packaging tools.reader and have to use maven to build it as it requires AOT compilation. Clojure's parent pom looks as if it does a lot that I don't actually need ... Would it be enough to patch tools.reader's pom to declare the clojure dependency for the build to succeed?
07:46	babilen	talios: I am not convinced that it will be enough though as it misses, for example, build-helper-maven-plugin - but I am not entirely sure.
07:47	SomeOtherGuy	@clvg ##(filter odd? (range 10)) so this says all odd numbers from 0 - 10? and (mod % 7) would be all numbers that can be devided by 7? What does #(zero?) stand for? Starting at 0?
07:47	lazybot	⇒ (1 3 5 7 9)
07:48	talios	babilen - mmm not sure, depends on what else the parent pom adds in ( build-helper would probably be for adding a slim.jar or something? ), you should be able to just add clojure as a dep - i'd be careful with the dep tho as you don't neccessarily want your release to enforce a specific clojure version
07:48	talios	not sure if its flagged as optional in the parent?
07:51	babilen	talios: The parent pom simply defines "<clojure.version>1.4.0</clojure.version>" which is then substituted later -- I am packaging for Debian btw and while we need to be able to compile everything from source we also don't need certain things that would be done if I "blindly" use the parent pom. I am currently trying to decide how to handle this and am leaning towards simply patching tools.reader's pom with a slimmed down version of the parent ...
07:51	babilen	... pom.
07:52	talios	babilen - ooo, you're one of thoes packaging guys :) You guys like making life hard for yourself :)
07:53	talios	that explains wanting my tags :)
07:53	babilen	talios: Well, yes. The whole "just download the jar" approach makes life hard for us as one of our requirements is that everything has to be built from source. And I am running into circular dependencies here and there
07:53	babilen	talios: Yeah, that explains it :)
07:54	babilen	talios: I still don't think that "I want to compile this software locally" is an outrageous requirement -- Either way, does my plan above sound feasible or would it be better to define our own parent.pom ?
07:55	talios	you should be able to patch the poms
07:56	talios	it sounds like what you want to somehow automate, is use the "mvn help:effective-pom" ( which pulls in a fully materialized pom based on parents ) then patch that, or strip it down
07:56	talios	altho - that effective-pom is HUGE
07:57	babilen	Well, it sounds like a start though. I'll see what works out best. You helped me a lot and I am grateful for that, thank you :)
07:58	talios	babilen - no worries, any other questions you can generally find me here - or on twitter @talios, or mark @ talios.com
07:58	talios	tho right now I think its time for bed ( 11:50pm )
07:59	babilen	talios: Sleep tight and thanks for the offer. :)
08:04	rbarraud	zzz night talios
08:14	callen	https://jira.mongodb.org/browse/PYTHON-532 Odin knows I've been this guy before.
08:19	Anderkent	SomeOtherGuy: ##(doc zero?)
08:19	lazybot	⇒ "([x]); Returns true if num is zero, else false"
08:19	Anderkent	babilen: so you're trying to build all transitive dependencies of a maven project?
08:20	Anderkent	callen: well, I can get his emotional state, but publicly shaming someone for 4 year old code that you have no context for is not cool
08:20	babilen	Anderkent: Yes, that is the only way to build everything from source
08:20	babilen	Anderkent: You have to build them at least once
08:21	callen	Anderkent: that's the only part that bothered me. The rest I enjoyed.
08:21	callen	Anderkent: there is however no context for defending that code :P
08:22	Anderkent	callen: how about if this was originally a private codepath that was only executed through a wrapper that performed the validation
08:23	callen	Anderkent: I don't have time for implausible excuses. It's 10gen, quality control is a distant 10th in the priority queue for that company.
08:23	Anderkent	So basically you don't care about the context. That's different to 'no context exists that would make this code defendable'
08:24	Anderkent	And the fact that quality control is not important for the company is a fact about its managers, not the developers
08:24	Anderkent	most of the time those are not the people git blame points you to
08:25	SomeOtherGuy	Anderkent: Just got my brother to explain it to me! :)
08:26	SomeOtherGuy	Anderkent: Thanks, that's a cool functionality :)
08:26	Anderkent	babilen: is it sufficient if you build each component standalone against pre-packaged jars? That would be much easier than trying to build everything from source at the same time
08:27	babilen	Anderkent: Not everything has to be build at the same time, but we have to bootstrap everything from source. (maven builds are done offline but have access to a local maven repository for dependencies)
08:28	babilen	Anderkent: And yes, circular dependencies are a problem
08:30	jweiss	sometimes when debugging a macro i'm writing i'll see an error something like "ArityException, wrong number of arguments (-1)" I assume this is a bug, right?
08:31	Anderkent	jweiss: I'd expect that to have something to do with the two 'implied' arguments to macroes, and clojure trying to correct for them (i.e. 1-arg macro def expects 3 arguments, gets 1, substracts 2 'implied' args that it thinks it would always get, prints -1)
08:32	Anderkent	babilen: right, so you start with an empty maven repo
08:33	jweiss	Anderkent: sorry, which implied arguments are those?
08:33	Anderkent	i don't think there's a general solution :P If you're doing it by hand, you can do something like `rm -rf ~/.m2/repository && mvn dependency:go-offline` to see what it has to have for a build to succeed
08:33	Anderkent	jweiss: &form and &env
08:34	Anderkent	jweiss: actually, I googled that and I notice I'm confused, so maybe you should just disregard what I said :P
08:36	jweiss	seemed pretty easy to reproduce but i can't remember how i did it
08:36	jweiss	googling for -1 doesn't work :(
08:37	Anderkent	jweiss: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Compiler.java#L6473
08:37	Anderkent	called it :)
08:37	jweiss	(inc Anderkent)
08:37	lazybot	⇒ 1
08:38	Anderkent	no idea when it would happen though
08:38	jweiss	Anderkent: so the question is how does the macro get called without the "extra"
08:45	Anderkent	Yeah. That, or it's doing the -2 more than once
08:45	Anderkent	macroexpand within macroexpand?
08:52	Anderkent	ha!
08:52	Anderkent	,(do (defmacro xpand [body] (macroexpand-1 body)) (macroexpand-1 '(xpand (defn))))
08:52	john2x	how do I split a hashmap into a list of [key value] pairs?
08:52	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
08:52	Anderkent	bah
08:52	Anderkent	jweiss: run (do (defmacro xpand [body] (macroexpand-1 body)) (macroexpand-1 '(xpand (defn)))) in a repl :)
08:53	Anderkent	john2x: you don't have to do anything, it is a list of key value pairs
08:53	clgv	Anderkent: thats because of you defn ;)
08:53	Anderkent	clgv: still, '-2' arguments
08:53	Anderkent	;)
08:53	clgv	(do (defmacro xpand [body] (macroexpand-1 body)) (macroexpand-1 '(xpand (defn f [])))) =>(clojure.core/defn f [])
08:54	Anderkent	clgv: run it in a repl and look at the exception. It says '-2' arguments passed to defn
08:54	Anderkent	that's what I wanted to reproduce
08:54	clgv	ok
08:54	Anderkent	john2x: for example ##(take 3 {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3})
08:54	john2x	Anderkent: I wanted to transform {:foo "bar"} into a querystring like "foo=bar".. is there already library that does that?
08:54	lazybot	⇒ ([:a 1] [:c 3] [:b 2])
08:54	john2x	ohh
08:55	clgv	john2x: just use reduce-kv on the map to build up the string ;)
08:56	Anderkent	clgv: is it different to (reduce (fn [state [key val]] ...) init map) ?
08:56	clgv	&(require '[clojure.string :as s])
08:56	lazybot	⇒ nil
08:57	clgv	&(s/join " "(map #(apply (format "%s=%s" %)) {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}))
08:57	lazybot	java.util.MissingFormatArgumentException: Format specifier 's'
08:57	clgv	or like that ^^
08:57	Anderkent	without the parens around format, obvlsy :)
08:57	clgv	loh right^^
08:58	clgv	&(s/join " "(map #(apply format "%s=%s" %) {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}))
08:58	lazybot	⇒ ":a=1 :c=3 :b=2"
08:58	clgv	damn^^
08:59	john2x	thanks!
08:59	augustl	where should ~/.lein/profile.clj go on windows?
09:00	Anderkent	&(s/join "&" (map (fn format-entry [k v] (format "%s=%s" (name k) v)) {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}))
09:00	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: sandbox10042$eval13855$format-entry
09:00	Anderkent	bah :P
09:00	Anderkent	missed the destructuring
09:00	decaf	augustl: same place. c:\Users\<yourname>\.lein\ in windows 7
09:02	augustl	decaf: ah, thanks
09:06	clgv	augustl: if you used lein already then that directory should exist
09:16	sandbags2	Am I doing something wrong? I'm trying to search clojars.org for the 'math.numeric-tower' library and although I can get it by specifying org.clojure/math.numeric-tower "0.0.1" I can't find the lib on clojars itself.
09:16	augustl	clgv: yup, seems to work.
09:17	sandbags2	I was trying to find the right version number to use... on GitHub the library appears to be 0.0.3
09:17	sandbags2	but that didn't work as a require
09:17	ohpauleez	sandbags2: All the Clojure stuff is in maven central -search.maven,org
09:17	clgv	andbags2: it is on maven
09:17	ohpauleez	search.maven.org
09:17	sandbags2	ah so i'm looking at the wrong site?
09:17	ohpauleez	correct
09:18	sandbags2	ahh so "maven central" the clue is when it says it got it from "central"
09:18	sandbags2	thank you
09:18	ohpauleez	http://search.maven.org/#search\|ga\|1\|g%3A%22org.clojure%22
09:18	ohpauleez	you're welcome
09:19	sandbags2	is search.maven.org reachable for you guys?
09:20	sandbags2	(http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/search.maven.org also seems to say it's down...)
09:22	clgv	the search works
09:22	sandbags2	okay it's back
09:22	clgv	that isup.me is lying ;)
09:34	sandbags2	In the ClojureScript wiki it says "Existing Clojure libs will have to conform to the ClojureScript subset in order to work in ClojureScript" I'm trying to use math.numeric-tower and although I've made it a dependency in project.clj and :require'd it I'm getting "ERROR: JSC_MISSING_PROVIDE_ERROR. required "clojure.math.numeric_tower" namespace never provided at ..." Could these two facts be related?
09:43	ohpauleez	sandbags2: Yeah, the numeric tower stuff is JVM specific
09:44	sandbags2	ohpauleez: i'm wondering if Clojure libraries are, in general, not usable from ClojureScript..?
09:44	Foxboron	sandbags2: you could in theory rewrite what you need so it compiles.
09:44	sandbags2	is it only Clojure Core + your own Clojure code
09:44	ohpauleez	you'll have to look at the Google Closure library for the functions you're specifically using
09:45	Foxboron	sandbags2: could actually be a interesting projects to go around and try rewrite Clojure libs into ClojureScript libs.
09:45	tolitius	sandbags2: what were you going to use form "numeric-tower"?
09:46	sandbags2	tolitius: floor
09:47	clgv	sandbags2: converting to integer should do the trick
09:47	tolitius	you can drop to JS and use Math.floor
09:47	Anderkent	sandbags2: you can use (.floor js/Math my-arg) I suppose, though it does make your code cljs specific
09:47	Anderkent	scratch that, clgv is right
09:47	sandbags2	i'm okay with this code being CLJS specific as this is in-browser code I am doing
09:48	sandbags2	thanks for the suggestions
09:48	clgv	sandbags2: but only for positive floats
09:48	sandbags2	although, as I am learning Clojure, i've tended to look for Clojure solutions (rather than JS which I would prefer to avoid as much as poss :))
09:48	clgv	,(println (int 3.5) (int -3.5))
09:48	clojurebot	3 -3\n
09:49	sandbags2	clgv: yep +ve only works here, thanks
09:49	clgv	for negative numbers you need an additional decrement
09:50	tolitius	sandbags2: imo it is good to get use both. when you are integrating other JS libraries that do not play well with clj semantics, it is a good mental switch to train
09:50	tolitius	*JS and CLJS
09:53	sandbags2	tolitius: you make a good point :)
09:54	Morgawr	I have a clojurescript question, not sure if this is the right place though... I have bound a function to a javascript event, however from that event I need to get the 'this' attribute, how do I do that? do I need to pass it to the event handler with a closure?
09:55	tolitius	Morgawr: this-as
09:56	tolitius	(fn [] (this-as me (.-a me))))
09:56	Morgawr	great, thanks!
09:57	tolitius	https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/clj/cljs/core.clj#L532
09:57	tolitius	sure
09:57	Morgawr	perfect :)
10:08	asaleh	I have a macro-related question, Is there a way to have macro output two forms instead of just one?
10:11	mefesto	asaleh: you could output them in a (do ...) form
10:12	asaleh	mefesto, but do returns only the last form, I need to have several of them (trying to create macro generating contracts for core.contracts)
10:12	Anderkent	asaleh: return a do form that contains all your forms
10:12	mefesto	asaleh: how about a code example of the output you want?
10:13	Anderkent	asaleh: as in (defmacro my-macro `(do (defn first-fn [arg] 1) (defn second-fn [arg2] 2)))
10:13	Anderkent	I assume your forms side effect
10:14	clgv	asaleh: what exactly do you want to do?
10:14	asaleh	mefesto, Anderkent .. no, they don't have side-effects, they are just part of contracts syntax
10:14	asaleh	Anderkent, clgv, mefesto ... let me put together a gist ...
10:18	asaleh	Anderkent, clgv, mefesto ... https://gist.github.com/AdamSaleh/5685224
10:19	asaleh	Anderkent, clgv, mefesto ... ^ I wan't to do something like that ...
10:20	Anderkent	asaleh: have the macro return a list of args and use apply to call with-constraints with those
10:20	clgv	asaleh: why dont you put "(contracts/with-constraints ~name " in the macro as well?
10:20	mefesto	clgv: +1
10:21	asaleh	Anderkent, clgv, mefesto ... thanks, will try :)
10:25	clgv	asaleh: is there really a use for this macro? in my opinion it is way too specific to be of general use
10:30	asaleh	clgv, I found out, that contracts provide side-effectig (contracts/provide) macro, so I am using that instead :)
10:31	asaleh	clgv, and of course, in gist I provided simplified version, in reality I am trying to do a verification of a map, that serves as arguments for a rpc call
11:06	climaxius	question: after compiling my clojurescript javascript complains that there is no method "cljs.core.PersistentArrayMap.fromArray"
11:09	rebcabin	#clojurebot '(+ 1 2)
11:09	rebcabin	@clojurebot '(+ 1 2)
11:10	llasram	,(+ 1 2)
11:10	clojurebot	3
11:10	llasram	&(+ 1 2)
11:10	lazybot	⇒ 3
11:10	llasram	And ##(+ 1 2)
11:10	lazybot	⇒ 3
11:16	si14_	dnolen: sorry, found an example here: http://swannodette.github.io/2013/03/09/logic-programming-is-underrated/
11:26	climaxius	ok, somehow fixed my issue by running lein cljsbuild clean
11:26	climaxius	wtf
11:28	tomjack	I think there are some gotchas in the stuff cljsbuild does trying to be fast
11:30	dnolen	si14_: lists of random variable?
11:37	tomjack	«Note: "walk" supports all Clojure data structures EXCEPT maps created with sorted-map-by. There is no (obvious) way to retrieve the sorting function.»
11:37	tomjack	&(.comparator (sorted-map-by (comp - compare) 1 2 3 4 5 6))
11:37	lazybot	⇒ #<core$comp$fn__4034 clojure.core$comp$fn__4034@17082b6>
11:40	tomjack	&(clojure.walk/postwalk #(if (number? %) (inc %) %) (sorted-map-by (comp - compare) 1 2 3 4 5 6))
11:40	lazybot	⇒ {6 7, 4 5, 2 3}
11:40	tomjack	&(.comparator (empty (sorted-map-by (comp - compare) 1 2 3 4 5 6)))
11:40	lazybot	⇒ #<core$comp$fn__4034 clojure.core$comp$fn__4034@1dac188>
11:40	tomjack	:D
11:45	lastavailablenic	What's the traditional way to put flash params in a hiccup template function that's used in most requests, without needing to specify the flash param in every Compojure route and manually pass it to every hiccup function that uses the template?
11:45	lastavailablenic	Also hi.
11:50	markeroon	Hi, I am hoping someone could help me. I am trying to filter a list based on the contents of a second, equally sized list. Is there an easy way to do this? Thanks!
11:50	llasram	markeroon: Example?
11:51	ToxicFrog\|W`rkn	"based on" how? (filter (partial contains? (set second-list)) first-list)?
11:52	markeroon	(def i [a b c d e f]) (def j [10 11 12 13 14 15]) and only returning from the first list where j>12
11:52	lastavailablenic	Blast, nobody knows. Ok time to reinvent some wheels.
11:52	markeroon	ToxicFrog\|W`rkn: trying this now
11:52	ToxicFrog\|W`rkn	markeroon: that won't do what you want.
11:53	markeroon	ok
11:53	ToxicFrog\|W`rkn	I took a guess on what you meant by "based on", since you didn't specify.
11:53	llasram	lastavailablenic: Yeah, sorry. There are people here who do web-fu, but appparently not at the moment :-)
11:53	markeroon	llasram :)
11:54	Ember-	ok, this is getting annoying
11:54	Ember-	I need to be able to append data to HTML with Enlive without Enlive doing automatic HTML escaping
11:54	ToxicFrog\|W`rkn	Hmm
11:54	Ember-	to be more exact, I need to append base64 encoded string as the value of img element
11:54	Anderkent	markeroon: &&(keep (map #(when (> %2 12) 1) [:a :b :c :d :e :f] [1 2 15 3 4 16]))
11:55	Anderkent	gah
11:55	Anderkent	typoed it
11:55	Ember-	everything works fine except that enlive insists on escaping the data
11:55	Ember-	which of course makes the image go fubar
11:55	markeroon	Anderkent: woah, thanks. i am going to try to digest that. thank you.
11:55	Anderkent	sec need to fix it :)
11:55	Ember-	if I don't find a reasonable solution FAST I'm going to regexp this
11:56	Ember-	which really would suck
11:56	cgrand	Ember-: use html-snippet
11:56	ToxicFrog\|W`rkn	,(map first (filter #(> 12 (second %)) (map list [:a :b :c :d :e :f] [1 2 15 3 4 16])))
11:56	clojurebot	(:a :b :d :e)
11:56	ToxicFrog\|W`rkn	o.O
11:56	Ember-	cgrand: I use it, but I'm guessing you're suggesting I use it somewhere else
11:56	Anderkent	markeroon: &&(keep identity (map #(when (> %2 12) %1) [:a :b :c :d :e :f] [1 2 15 3 4 16]))
11:57	ToxicFrog\|W`rkn	Oh wait
11:57	ToxicFrog\|W`rkn	,(map first (filter #(> (second %) 12) (map list [:a :b :c :d :e :f] [1 2 15 3 4 16])))
11:57	clojurebot	(:c :f)
11:57	cgrand	how are you trying to append data?
11:57	Ember-	cgrand: so, I read the HTML data in via html-snippet
11:57	Anderkent	gah what's the trigger for inline execution for lazybot
11:57	Anderkent	,(keep identity (map #(when (> %2 12) %1) [:a :b :c :d :e :f] [1 2 15 3 4 16]))
11:57	clojurebot	(:c :f)
11:57	Ember-	then I try to append the data with at
11:57	ToxicFrog\|W`rkn	Anderkent's is better, I think.
11:57	Ember-	(-> html (enlive/at [[:img]] img-as-base64))
11:57	markeroon	ToxicFrog\|W`rkn, Anderkent: thank you both, that's great
11:58	ToxicFrog\|W`rkn	Mine generates a lot of itty bitty temporary lists that are totally unnecessary.
11:58	Ember-	(defn img-as-base64 [n] (update-in n [:attrs :src] (constantly (str "data:image/png;base64," (img-to-base64 ((comp :src :attrs) n))))))
11:58	Ember-	about like that
11:58	cgrand	what's img-as-base64? the value returned by html-snippet?
11:58	Ember-	so it's a function
11:58	cgrand	I saw
11:58	markeroon	ToxicFrog\|W`rkn: I am going to study it regardless. thanks again.
12:00	Ember-	cgrand: I love Enlive, but this thing is really bugging me :)
12:00	cgrand	Ember- and where is the HTML that keeps getting escaped?
12:00	Ember-	it's the base64 string
12:00	Ember-	that get's escaped
12:00	Ember-	gets
12:01	cgrand	huh?
12:01	cgrand	which character?
12:01	Ember-	at least /
12:02	cgrand	Ember-: can you put the output in a gist so that I can see the problem?
12:02	Ember-	what I'm trying to do here: embed images as base64 strings into img elements so that the HTML email sent works well
12:02	cgrand	Ember-: yeah I figured it from the source of img-as-base64
12:03	cgrand	(ps: use assoc-in rather then update-in constantly)
12:03	Ember-	true
12:03	Ember-	refheap dies on my paste :)
12:04	Ember-	well, wait a sec
12:04	Ember-	cgrand: http://www.collin.fi/~niklas/paste.txt
12:05	Ember-	should start as data:image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4RZ1RXhp
12:06	Ember-	oh crap...
12:06	Ember-	I think I have another problem
12:06	Ember-	cgrand: nevermind :)
12:06	Ember-	thanks anyway!
12:07	cgrand	oh, ok because I on't see how attar)str turns + into +
12:18	tomjack	huh, is there CLP(Bayes) ?
12:18	tomjack	oh maybe CLP(Prob)
12:21	tomjack	found a paper about CLP(BN)
12:24	jweiss	how do i get records to print with pprint the same way they do with pr? eg, #foo.Myrec{:a 1}
12:27	si14_	tomjack: https://github.com/clojure/core.logic/wiki/CLP%28Prob%29
12:27	si14_	tomjack: you can find a lot on the topic there
12:28	tomjack	cool, hadn't seen ProbClojureNice
12:28	clojurebot	excusez-moi
12:29	Anderkent	jweiss: I think you'd have to change print-pprint-dispatch
12:33	dnolen	si14_: I was confused by what you meant by "random"
12:33	si14_	dnolen: why it's so slow https://gist.github.com/si14/f09a6caeb2355cd2e727 ? Am I doing something wrong?
12:34	jweiss	Anderkent: what would i change it to? seems like it needs an entry for every record type
12:34	Anderkent	jweiss: 1 sec
12:35	dnolen	no idea why it's slow and I don't have time to dig into it at the moment
12:35	dnolen	si14_: you could fire up YourKit and tell me thought ;)
12:35	dnolen	s/thought/though
12:36	Anderkent	jweiss: https://www.refheap.com/15181
12:36	Anderkent	a little hacky ;>
12:36	jweiss	Anderkent: I'll take it, thanks@
12:36	jweiss	er, thanks!
12:36	si14_	dnolen: don't have one yet :) I'm somewhat busy too, so I'll just use less LVs here now. Should I file an issue or is it not important enough?
12:37	dnolen	si14_: I don't really know what the point of that example is. Or why you think that should be fast
12:37	Anderkent	No problem, gotta fight for them imaginary irc points
12:37	dnolen	si14_: I only really care to benchmark real CLP(FD) problems
12:37	si14_	dnolen: I'm trying to rewrite http://tgk.github.io/2012/12/the-composing-schemer.html with less repetition (as in m1 m2 m3 …)
12:40	si14_	*this
12:56	dnolen	si14_: ok I took a moment to further isolate the issue, there is something weird going on
12:58	dnolen	si14_: ok, ticket already exists for this http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/LOGIC-137?focusedCommentId=31190#comment-31190
12:58	dnolen	si14_: tho this clarifies the issue
13:01	dnolen	si14_: thanks for the report.
13:24	dobry-den	Is there an obvious way to reverse the order in which condp applies args to the pred so that this works? (condp .startsWith my-string …)
13:24	si14_	dnolen: thanks for considering it.
13:25	dnolen	si14_: apologies for the skepticism, I'm more open to perf reports if the example is extremely minimal. The run 42, nth etc was throwing me off
13:26	dnolen	this is pretty cool http://github.com/frenchy64/core.typed-example/blob/master/src/fire/simulate.clj
13:30	bbloom	dobry-den: can't you just (condp #(.startsWith %2 %1) … )
13:31	bbloom	dobry-den: or just use re-find ##(condp re-find "yzw" #"^x" :x #"^y" :y)
13:31	lazybot	⇒ :y
13:32	dobry-den	bbloom: Yes. Kill me and put me out of my misery
13:32	dobry-den	I tried that and didn't read the error message. (it broke on my :else test (keyword))
13:33	dobry-den	which was a relic from my case statement
13:36	onlynickleft	Is there a better way to get a flash param from inside a hiccup layout function than to add a middleware that binds a global var flash at each request, which you can access inside the layout directly?
13:36	onlynickleft	The only other way I can think is to have every single Compojure route specifically grab the :flash key out of the request and pass it to every hiccup view function.
13:36	onlynickleft	And that seems terrible, just terrible.
13:37	weavejester	onlynickleft: What are you using the flash for?
13:38	onlynickleft	So that I can put success/failure/general-info messages into the next redirect, which might be redirected to any page on the site.
13:38	onlynickleft	Also, thanks for all your contributions weavejester, you make my job so much easier. I ought to be paying you at this point.
13:39	weavejester	You're welcome :)
13:40	technomancy	hugod: did you see this? https://github.com/technomancy/nrepl-discover
13:40	onlynickleft	Also, thanks for using the "core" namespace in each of your projects. Some of my colleagues hate it because it's non-descriptive and seems to have an inverted meaning, but it's very helpful as it makes it easy to know which namespace to look in first for the highest-level public functions.
13:40	weavejester	One alternative I've been playing around with is to save all data, regardless of whether it's correct or not, and then generate the error/failure information based on what's in the database.
13:41	tomjack	yes :)
13:41	onlynickleft	Oh, so you've been running into the same question for the same reason? Hmm good to know I'm not crazy.
13:41	tomjack	if you can't save it it ain't data
13:42	weavejester	onlynickleft: It's generally recommended to have at least two items in the namespace, since a namespace with only one part is a packageless class. Hence the blah.core idiom. Some people prefer name.blah though.
13:42	onlynickleft	Right now we're using a legacy framework that binds every request entirely, and the layout function just grabs :flash out of that, but it feels wrong for it to have that full access to each request in the view.
13:42	technomancy	clucy.core is kinda silly
13:42	technomancy	clucy.index would make a lot more sense
13:43	weavejester	technomancy: Yeah
13:43	onlynickleft	technomancy: I can't stress enough though just how helpful it is to have a common place to look first. It's like the conventional name "README" but for namespaces.
13:43	weavejester	If it makes sense, then blah.client or blah.index or blah.whatever ot preferable over blah.core
13:43	technomancy	onlynickleft: there's only one namespace
13:43	onlynickleft	Heck maybe it should just be "compojure.README"
13:43	onlynickleft	technomancy: Oh. Touche.
13:44	weavejester	onlynickleft: I don't like having a dynamic request, as it gives too much information to the functions using it.
13:44	onlynickleft	weavejester: Oh good once again I don't feel so crazy.
13:44	weavejester	I'm of the opinion that information to functions should be passed around on a need-to-know basis.
13:44	weavejester	Ideally functions shouldn't have access to data that doesn't affect them.
13:45	onlynickleft	That's been my philosophy for a few years now, it makes it easy to see where dependencies are wrongly or unnecessarily passed around.
13:45	onlynickleft	And now that I'm using Clojure instead of Ruby, the benefits of this philosophy are being realized much more quickly.
13:46	onlynickleft	But I also don't like binding global vars, although in this case binding flash might make sense as a middleware.
13:47	weavejester	Well, if you're going to use dynamic vars, restrict it down to what you need. So perhaps messages instead
13:47	weavejester	You could also have some middleware to inject the message into the HTML, or use AJAX
13:47	onlynickleft	Well isn't that the only use-case of wrap-flash?
13:47	weavejester	Maybe...
13:47	seangrove	weavejester: Could be used with prismatic's plumbing to make it explicit
13:48	arohner	cemerick: (cemerick.url/url "http://foo.com/?label="). I think that's valid, because Google tried to visit my site w/ it
13:48	arohner	throws for me. interested in a patch?
13:48	weavejester	However, if you have a choice, I prefer saving all data
13:48	weavejester	Then a flash becomes unnecessary
13:49	weavejester	I tend to have the user ID in the session, and that's it.
13:49	amalloy	arohner: fwiw, http://foo.com/?label is valid too (as far as the rfc is concerned)
13:50	arohner	amalloy: thanks. I'll add a case :-)
13:50	onlynickleft	weavejester: Has that been leading to any regrettable complexity in your apps?
13:50	amalloy	that is, the name=value pairs in query-params are a convention, and not a standardized part of the spec
13:50	weavejester	tomjack: I think I agree with the idea that if you can't save it, it's not data :)
13:51	arohner	weavejester: ooh, I like that. I've been on a "everything should be serializable" kick recently
13:51	arohner	including fns and closures and refs and ...
13:52	weavejester	onlynickleft: Not really. I mean, you need to do a little more work around tying data to time, which you get for free if you use datomic, but not anything else.
13:52	weavejester	But there are a lot of benefits to having a concept of time in your DB
13:53	weavejester	arohner: that quote's attributable to tomjack :)
13:55	hiredman	I am thinking about making a clojure build with the ability to log locals clearing information, prints out "emitting x" "clearing x" with line and file info at compilation time sort of similar to warn-on-reflection
13:56	hiredman	https://gist.github.com/hiredman/5686648 I guess I have the build, I wonder if there is general interest in such a thing?
13:56	amalloy	hiredman: seems like the naive approach would generate way too much logging output. what do you have in mind to narrow it down to something useful?
13:57	hiredman	amalloy: I would only turn it on when compiling a single function
13:57	hiredman	e.g. at the repl
13:57	amalloy	yeah, now that i've seen your gist i see the intent
14:00	ambrosebs	A brief n biased experience report on using core.typed. Spoiler: I like using my own project ;) But seriously, loving static type checking. https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/clojure-core-typed/oxh3DO8dEIc
14:02	onlynickleft	What unit testing framework do you guys prefer?
14:02	llasram	clojure.test
14:02	technomancy	onlynickleft: clojure.test for sure
14:02	onlynickleft	Over Midje?
14:03	technomancy	oh yeah
14:03	onlynickleft	Hmm, I've had the impression that clojure.test is "too simple" or doesn't give good enough feedback or something.
14:03	tomjack	arohner: I'm imagining like running a codeq-alike on a cljs project, with some cljs code in the project that connects to the database the project is codeq'd into and automatically updates on deploys
14:03	llasram	I've use midje some because cascalog-midge, but it's way way too magical.
14:04	64MAADO0W	I've had only bad (more like horrible) experiences with Midje. At least with clojure.test you always know what's going on.
14:04	llasram	Plus its default mode operation has you put tests as top-level forms, which run when compiling a namespace, which makes REPL development with any sort of test helper functions very awkward
14:04	technomancy	onlynickleft: there's lots of tooling around clojure.test if you don't like out-of-the-box behaviour; see lein-difftest
14:04	arohner	I have blog post coming out next week, about how I rewrote our 15k LoC test suite from midje to clojure.test
14:04	tomjack	I had only thought about 'serializing' dynamic 'values' so far, not dynamic code..
14:04	onlynickleft	technomancy: Sounds like a very composable, Clojure-esque idea.
14:04	llasram	arohner: I'm interested in reading that
14:05	arohner	technomancy: oh, that reminds me. I'm interested in being able to write macros around deftest, but they break clojure-test-mode
14:06	arohner	i.e. I'd like (test "this is a test") -> (deftest this-is-a-test)
14:06	technomancy	arohner: literally attempting to destroy clojure-test-mode as we speak
14:06	arohner	cool :-) what's your approach?
14:06	hiredman	he is filing dmca take down notices
14:06	technomancy	mwahahaha
14:06	technomancy	arohner: https://github.com/technomancy/nrepl-discover
14:06	technomancy	arohner: basically teach nrepl.el how to interpret responses which include overlays
14:07	technomancy	so you can move all logic server-side
14:07	arohner	cool
14:08	onlynickleft	llasram: I prefer a test auto-runner rather than working in the repl with tests.
14:08	onlynickleft	(Even though nrepl.el is awesome, but I only use that for debugging and live-experimenting.)
14:09	technomancy	onlynickleft: it's easy to set up an auto-runner with nrepl.el and emacs after-save-hooks
14:10	papachan	,3.0 * 0.333
14:10	clojurebot	3.0
14:11	llasram	It seems to me that having a separate auto-runner process does have one major benefit over in-REPL testing, just by virtue of actually being in a separate process
14:11	technomancy	llasram: you still have to start a fresh process if you want a fresh state
14:12	llasram	Fresh state yes, but not just development state vs test state
14:12	technomancy	yeah, it'll save you from some goofs, but not enough to remove the need for a fresh run
14:12	llasram	I've spent a lot of time recently getting some things to place nicely loading external resources from different locations depending on whether they're under test, in a REPL, or running as part of a Hadoop job
14:14	cemerick	arohner: sure
14:14	onlynickleft	technomancy: That sounds great for someone like me who uses emacs, but just like your recent blog post alluded to, it's not so great for others who like to use IntelliJ to edit Clojure for some reason.
14:14	technomancy	onlynickleft: dunno; I'm sure all respectable editors have equivalents to save hooks
14:15	technomancy	watching the filesystem seems like a hack
14:15	technomancy	you already have all the data you need
14:15	arohner	cemerick: good timing. sent :-)
14:16	onlynickleft	I suppose, although it seems non-trivial to re-run all tests that require the current file (even indirectly).
14:16	cemerick	arohner: lol @ (-> ... (->> ...)) :-)
14:16	technomancy	onlynickleft: yeah, that's the hard part. I'm not aware of any good solutions in that space.
14:17	arohner	you seemed down with the arrows
14:17	arohner	you used -?>> in that fn
14:17	arohner	:-)
14:17	cemerick	arohner: yeah, wasn't criticizing, just funny
14:18	onlynickleft	technomancy: Midje and Speclj seem to have auto-runners that calculate this for you.
14:18	onlynickleft	I don't know how they work, and I'm sure it's probably hackish, but they seem to work pretty reliably.
14:19	tbaldridge	I've used them both. Midje's worked better for me than Speclj's
14:19	tbaldridge	You still run into the common reload problems with multi-methods and sometimes protocols.
14:19	technomancy	and it's silly to tie that kind of thing to a test library to begin with
14:19	technomancy	they're two orthogonal features
14:20	tbaldridge	that is, changing a protocol or a multimethod dispatch doesn't always get refreshed when the tests re-run
14:20	technomancy	tbaldridge: that's a flaw inherent in clojure though
14:20	tbaldridge	technomancy: agreed
14:23	onlynickleft	When you're writing tests for a web app that uses the database, do you somehow swap out the database for an in-memory one, or do you load up your real database in the background somehow during the tests?
14:23	arohner	onlynickleft: write your code so you don't need to hit the DB during the test. if you can't avoid that, I prefer hitting a test version of the real DB
14:23	Rhymor	depends on whether you're writing a unit test or an integration test
14:23	onlynickleft	(I suppose this question applies to non-web-apps too)
14:24	onlynickleft	Rhymor: I've given up on trying to make tests fit a category these days.
14:24	technomancy	onlynickleft: the idea that you can replace the DB without affecting behaviour is a myth
14:24	technomancy	unless your DB usage is trivial
14:24	technomancy	in which case it's probably not slow enough to bother replacing
14:25	tbaldridge	or datomic, in-memory vs file backend
14:25	Rhymor	onlynickleft: then this presentation is for you: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/integration-tests-scam
14:25	onlynickleft	technomancy: I've had pretty good success with using Hyperion, and using an in-memory backend during tests.
14:25	onlynickleft	But the problem with Hyperion is that it's super-trivial and probably very inefficient.
14:25	onlynickleft	I mean the API is super-trivial.
14:25	tbaldridge	onlynickleft: so what technomancy said :-P
14:26	onlynickleft	Hmm, maybe.
14:26	onlynickleft	I have bad memories of ActiveRecord making my Rails test suites slow though.
14:26	onlynickleft	Makes me afraid of that approach.
14:26	technomancy	slow is much better than inaccurate
14:27	technomancy	but anyway, test your functional code separately from your side-effecting code
14:27	technomancy	like arohner said
14:27	onlynickleft	Okay, the more I'm talking to you guys, the sadder I am about the project I've inherited.
14:28	onlynickleft	(I mean, except for all the awesome perks about the job it comes with, like working from home, only having to report once a week to the boss, the boss being technical too.)
14:28	onlynickleft	Oh! I remember a question I've been meaning to ask for months.
14:28	onlynickleft	How do you guys test the output of your hiccup-calling ring/compojure handlers?
14:29	arohner	onlynickleft: what do you want to verify?
14:29	onlynickleft	Right now I basically do "should-receive"-style tests on the hiccup function itself, but I hate should-receive-style tests.
14:29	onlynickleft	I want to make sure the view function got passed the right arguments.
14:30	arohner	you could regex the output for a few keywords
14:31	arohner	I tend not to test those kinds of things
14:31	arohner	I like testing logic and things that cause the app to throw
14:31	onlynickleft	Hmm, regex seems easiest and probably reliable enough.
14:32	onlynickleft	arohner: It's nice to have an automated test that tells me that when I load this page, it's gonna have the right stuff on it. Cuz we have a lot of different pages with several ways of having different stuff on them. Manually testing that would take forever.
14:33	arohner	sure. I don't know what's important to your app
14:33	onlynickleft	Hmm I like the regex idea a lot more than parsing HTML which was my plan.
14:34	onlynickleft	Although I bet with enlive, I could get pretty specific about stuff.
14:34	nDuff	...
14:35	nDuff	onlynickleft: If you need any kind of remotely useful context filtering, a regex is the wrong approach.
14:35	onlynickleft	I'm not smart enough to understand what you just said.
14:35	onlynickleft	Can you dumb it down for me?
14:36	arohner	nDuff: sure. but if you just need to see that "Foo" appears on the page, then a regex is fine
14:36	onlynickleft	That's basically it, yeah.
14:36	arohner	if you need to know that it's in the div enclosed in the p, then yes you need something smarter
14:36	onlynickleft	Oh no, those kinda tests make redesigning really painful.
14:38	nDuff	arohner: "appears on the page" and "appears in the page source" are _completely_ different things.
14:38	arohner	nDuff: I'm aware
14:38	SlabberMouth	hi everybody
14:38	onlynickleft	Ah I see your point nDuff.
14:38	nDuff	...then I'm not very sure about the practice of giving advice that conflates them.
14:39	onlynickleft	nDuff: there's no way to be absolutely sure it appears visibly on the page without loading it up.
14:39	onlynickleft	I just need to make sure that it appears in the source.
14:39	nDuff	onlynickleft: ...and there are very good libraries/frameworkes for "loading it up" in a headless web server
14:39	onlynickleft	Like if I pass (take 3 widgets) to my view, the :name of each widget is somewhere on the page.
14:39	nDuff	and querying what does/doesn't get rendered.
14:39	onlynickleft	*in the source
14:40	onlynickleft	I bet if whytheluckystiff finishes coming back, he'll be a Clojure guy this time.
14:40	nDuff	onlynickleft: ...so sure, you need to actually run your page through a browser engine to know for sure what does or doesn't compare, but tools for automating that process have been maturing for years.
14:40	nathanielk	I'm using futures for the first time. I create a future with a function that modifies a database and the function never runs (as far as I can tell). Am I mis-using futures? Do I need to do something extra?
14:41	SlabberMouth	I was wondering whether anybody has found a way yet to use Android and Clojure 1.5 (https://clojars.org/android/clojure/versions/1.5.0) together
14:41	onlynickleft	Sometimes I hate HTML and the evolution path browsers have taken.
14:41	ToxicFrog\|W`rkn	Only sometimes?
14:41	arohner	nDuff: browser tests are great. I use them all the time, but they're not the only right way to test. speed to code and speed to run the test are both useful considerations
14:41	onlynickleft	Yeah. The rest of the time I'm playing with my kids or something.
14:42	onlynickleft	You know what they say: Out of mind, out of existence.
14:42	tbaldridge	down with the browsers! Long live Swing!
14:42	tbaldridge	:-P
14:42	onlynickleft	Man. Everything about what we've done with computers really upsets me when I think about it.
14:42	onlynickleft	The trick is to just stop thinking about it and keep making money by writing code that's slightly less bad than what you would have written yesterday.
14:46	matthoffman	cemerick: (or anyone else that is interested) how crazy would it be to use nrepl + a queue-based transport for distributing work between nodes in a cluster?
14:46	clojure-new	hello.
14:46	matthoffman	I was looking at technomancy's die-roboter, and thinking "it'd be nice if it had pluggable transports, kind of like Celery in Python. And pluggable middleware, for some different behavior…" Then it started sounding a lot like nrepl.
14:49	clojure-new	can you suggest template engine for clojure web apps that should be just plain old html with layout support? I want to write somthing like <body><%= outlet %></body> and from my clojure app: (render "partial.html" {:layout "app.html"})
14:49	Raynes	Clabango maybe?
14:49	Raynes	There is also laser, enlive, mustache, etc.
14:49	Raynes	laserlaserlaserlaserlaser
14:50	Raynes	callen is a big fan of clabango.
14:50	clojure-new	Raynes: Don't like clabango, {{}} will conflict.
14:52	amalloy	nathanielk: the function is probably causing an exception
14:52	amalloy	you're not seeing a stacktrace because exceptions on a separate thread can't interrupt the current one
14:52	amalloy	you can test this by replacing (future ...) with @(future ...) temporarily
14:53	onlynickleft	Anyone: When you write web apps, what else do you use besides ring, lein-ring, compojure, hiccup, and clojure.test?
14:53	clojure-new	https://github.com/Raynes/laser and enlive looks horribly complicated, wtf is parse, why should i care about it, some document function and so on. Is there somthing that can simply read html file and subsittue special markup things with what in options?
14:53	technomancy	onlynickleft: the source for https://syme.herokuapp.com is pretty readable
14:53	onlynickleft	clojure-new: I was eyeballing Stencil the other day. Not sure if it's alive still.
14:54	justin_smith	how does with-redefs interact with varargs? it is behaving like if I don't have a redef for the specific arg count the original funciton is used
14:54	justin_smith	even when redeffing to a constantly expression that can handle any arg count
14:55	justin_smith	,(with-redefs [+ (constantly true)] (+ 1))
14:55	clojurebot	true
14:55	justin_smith	,(with-redefs [+ (constantly true)] (+ 1 1))
14:55	clojurebot	2
14:56	onlynickleft	heh, .symerc sounds like cemerick
14:59	onlynickleft	When you make a hiccup layout function, have you found any clever way to optionally let the caller specify css/js files to include also?
14:59	onlynickleft	(You = anyone)
15:01	decaf	(do (map (partial contains? words) words) nil) ...words is a set with 55000 members. criterium says this expression ran in 50 nanoseconds.
15:01	onlynickleft	technomancy: aww, no tests, plus it's not using korma which looked pretty neat
15:01	justin_smith	decaf: mapv
15:01	justin_smith	map is lazy
15:01	justin_smith	if you don't use it, no action is performed
15:02	decaf	ok it's 58 milliseconds, still too good to be true :)
15:02	technomancy	onlynickleft: I have had bad experiences with korma
15:02	onlynickleft	Inflexibility?
15:02	onlynickleft	Magic?
15:02	clojurebot	magic bullet is http://www.infomercialcentral.com/store/files/images/d_77.jpg
15:03	bbloom	onlynickleft: what's wrong with an options map as an argument? (update-in options [:stylesheets] conj "styles.css")
15:03	justin_smith	decaf: hmm, I thought mapv would force the evaluation
15:03	justin_smith	there is also (doall (map ...))
15:03	onlynickleft	bbloom: seems weird to pass nil or {} when you needn't specify anything.
15:03	chronno	technomancy: Is there something bad with korma?
15:04	tbaldridge	justin_smith: doall holds the head, in this case he may want dorun
15:04	onlynickleft	What tool do you humans use to figure out what part of some code is so slow and why?
15:04	justin_smith	tbaldridge: wouldn't mapv force it though? I thought it would, not being lazy and all
15:04	dnolen	onlynickleft: criterium is OK for high level stuff, for serious profiling YourKit
15:06	onlynickleft	Oh btw I found out this cool trick: ((juxt get dissoc) m k)
15:06	onlynickleft	It gets you a value in a map and returns it without said val.
15:07	dnolen	onlynickleft: juxt is generally awesome
15:07	justin_smith	nice, like pop for maps
15:07	onlynickleft	Rather Hash#delete
15:07	onlynickleft	dnolen: yeah, I've been using juxt with for and into {}
15:07	onlynickleft	I mean map.
15:08	onlynickleft	I really mean for.
15:09	onlynickleft	Okay I have to admit it's pretty cool to talk to the smart people who wrote all the tools I've been using for 7 months.
15:10	onlynickleft	Thanks guys for paving the way for newbs like me :)
15:12	onlynickleft	Have any of you ever integrated with Stripe or Braintree and tried converting users away from PayPal?
15:15	arohner	onlynickleft: I'm using Stripe, haven't tried converting users away
15:16	onlynickleft	Oh.
15:16	onlynickleft	Never mind, that's too off-topic.
15:23	onlynickleft	Okay bye, disappearing forever again.
15:26	ghengis	,(+ '1 '2)
15:26	clojurebot	3
15:26	ghengis	,('+ '1 '2)
15:26	clojurebot	2
15:26	ghengis	why did the second one return the last parameter?
15:27	ghengis	is that just what a symbol does when used as a fn?
15:27	bbloom	ghengis: because symbols are functions
15:27	pjstadig	when used as a fn and given as a first argument something that is not a map (or a map that does not contain the symbol as a key)
15:27	pjstadig	it will use the second arg as the default value
15:27	bbloom	,('+ {'+ :plus '- :minus} :not-found)
15:27	clojurebot	:plus
15:28	bbloom	,('* {'+ :plus '- :minus} :not-found)
15:28	clojurebot	:not-found
15:28	ghengis	ah! interesting
15:28	technomancy	tl;dr: clojure doesn't do a lot of sanity checking on its inputs
15:28	technomancy	garbage in, garbage out basically
15:29	ghengis	basically, works just like a keyword when used as a function
15:36	cemerick	arohner: 0.0.8 now in clojars
15:46	mattmoss	I hate GIGO when my brain is full of it.
15:48	llasram	Huh. Java won't let you have a package and a class with the same name?
15:49	llasram	I guess the JVM doesn't care, but why does Java?
15:50	callen	llasram: save people from themselves.
15:51	llasram	I'm just not even sure where it could cause a problem
16:09	arohner	cemerick: thanks
16:10	dobry-den	jvisualvm is also a nice profiler (only profiler i've used in my life). i could figure it out. comes with java. run it from command line
16:14	lynaghk`	I need to implement a queue, and am thinking about just using an atom. Since swap returns the swapped-in value, the only way I can think of to actually give a worker its task is to throw it under a new key. E.g., a swap takes {:todo [a b c] :foo nil} to {:todo [b c] :foo a}, and the worker picks up task a.
16:15	hiredman	lynaghk`: for clojurescript?
16:15	lynaghk`	I'm pretty sure that it'll work fine, but it feels nasty since :foo isn't actually state that needs to be shared with anyone
16:15	lynaghk`	hiredman: nah, this is JVM clojure with real threads.
16:15	hiredman	have you considered a java.util.concurrent queue?
16:16	hiredman	j.u.c.LinkedBlockingQueue is my go to queue
16:16	lynaghk`	hiredman: yeah; however, I need a priority queue with a changing comparator, and I didn't see anything in java util concurrent that would help with that problem
16:16	arohner	lynaghk`: I've used clojure.lang.queue with refs
16:16	lynaghk`	the use case is building a dependency graph in topological order where the graph structure can change during the build process
16:17	arohner	so then (defn dequeue [ref-queue] (dosync (let [head (first @ref-queue)] (alter @ref-queue pop) head))
16:18	lynaghk`	arohner: yeah, I was thinking that maybe it's finally time for me to use dosync = )
16:18	arohner	you can also use compare-and-set, but it's ugly
16:24	mabes	lynaghk`: I'm not sure if it will work for your use case but priority-map is nice: https://github.com/clojure/data.priority-map
16:25	lynaghk`	mabes: yeah, I think that has the same problems as the priority queue in that it assumes the comparator is fixed
16:26	mabes	lynaghk`: when you change your comparator you'll have to resort anyways so why not just create a new priority queue with a new comparator?
16:27	gtrak_	changing comparator... why not a stateful comparator?
16:27	gtrak_	dosync to the rescue
16:27	lynaghk`	gtrak_: yeah, I think I will have to use dosync.
16:28	lynaghk`	mabes: if I create a whole new queue, I need to atomically switch all of the workers over to using it, which defeats the purpose of a queue =)
16:57	onlynickleft	Are there really no auto-runners for clojure.test?
16:59	bbloom	onlynickleft: not that auto runners aren't useful… but they demand probably just isn't very high, since most people test code incrementally at the repl & then run the full test suite before committing
16:59	fscker`	hi all, I'm trying out the "new" neko from sattvik ( https://github.com/clojure-android/neko ) , but the steps fail consistently. Does anyone have any experience with the lib?
17:00	onlynickleft	Oh I see.
17:00	onlynickleft	bbloom: Do you know of a good tutorial on such a workflow that gets pretty close to having an auto-runner?
17:01	onlynickleft	I remember technomancy's idea about after-save-hook but I'm hoping there's a more automated and less ad-hoc technique.
17:02	fscker`	The problem is ant btw - building fails every single time (seriously why ant??)
17:02	seancorfield	onlynickleft: I use an auto runner with Expectations but mostly rely on C-C , in Emacs to run the current namespace's tests whenever I need
17:02	seancorfield	I think C-c , works for clojure.test too if you have that mode package installed?
17:03	seancorfield	(not much help if you don't use Emacs of course but...)
17:03	onlynickleft	I used to be a pretty outspoken vim user, ranting about every other text editor someone would show me.
17:03	onlynickleft	Then I saw someone use emacs, and saw that he was way faster at coding than anyone I ever met, including me.
17:04	onlynickleft	So yeah I use emacs, going on 9 months now I think.
17:04	nDuff	onlynickleft: Depends on the mode, IMHO. For LISPs, there's no question that Emacs is the thing to beat, IMHO, but I find myself using vim for work in most other languages.
17:05	mattyw	ztellman, any idea if I can use aleph to connect to a secure websocket? When I try it appears that wait-for-result hangs
17:05	onlynickleft	nDuff: Oh. I don't use other languages anymore so I don't know.
17:05	onlynickleft	:)
17:05	ztellman	mattyw: what url are you using?
17:05	ztellman	is the protocols https?
17:05	mattyw	ztellman, wss
17:06	ztellman	mattyw: I don't handle that protocol correctly, try https and see if that changes anything
17:08	mattyw	ztellman, thanks, I'll try
17:12	mattyw	ztellman, I get this http://paste.ubuntu.com/5721100. Could it be something odd with the server?
17:12	onlynickleft	Okay I'm sold on clojure.test + lein-difftest
17:12	mattyw	ztellman, or that I'm using sun java?
17:13	ztellman	mattyw: yikes, I'm not sure
17:14	ztellman	I just set up the SSL stuff and trust that it will all work
17:15	bbloom	,(clojure.walk/macroexpand-all '(fn [] '(fn [])))
17:15	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.walk>
17:15	bbloom	&(clojure.walk/macroexpand-all '(fn [] '(fn [])))
17:15	lazybot	⇒ (fn* ([] (quote (fn* ([])))))
17:15	bbloom	i'm sure people are aware, but that's not the correct macro expansion :-P
17:16	dakrone	mattyw: shot in the dark, but do you have the store trust stores installed for your JDK?
17:16	dakrone	*strong trust stores
17:16	ztellman	mattyw: you can try setting :ignore-ssl-certs? to true in the options
17:17	mattyw	dakrone, no idea - I'll check
17:17	mattyw	ztellman, I'll give it a shot
17:17	ztellman	a quick search for that error message suggests there are at least half a dozen reasons it can happen, sorry I can't be of more help
17:18	dakrone	mattyw: http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/jce-6-download-429243.html if you need them
17:18	mattyw	ztellman, no problem, thanks for the help so far, I'm quite a novice when it comes to websockets and ssl anyway so I appreciate the help alot
17:19	onlynickleft	Why do some of you dislike Midje? It looks pretty clean, as long as you wrap every => in its own (fact), like (fact (foo) => :bar).
17:19	technomancy	it's not clean
17:19	technomancy	it's very macro-heavy
17:19	clojurebot	No entiendo
17:20	arohner	it's implementation is gigantic and hard to understand
17:20	technomancy	side-effects at the top level
17:20	arohner	it's buggy
17:20	onlynickleft	Good enough for me.
17:20	technomancy	random non-lispy syntax like =>
17:20	arohner	you can't compile the tests separately from running them
17:21	arohner	so for example, if you have a suite that takes 30 mins to run, you'd like to make sure there are no compile errors before running tests for 25 minutes
17:21	onlynickleft	What about speclj?
17:22	amalloy	arohner: i'm not a fan of midje, but you can wrap midje facts in deftests and then they don't have this stupid behavior
17:22	onlynickleft	Is http://richhickey.github.io/clojure/clojure.test-api.html still current?
17:22	bbloom	onlynickleft: for whatever flaws clojure.test has, it's the standard & it's good enough. just use that & you can move on to another framework if and when you identify a pain point with your existing test suite
17:22	arohner	oh, the test fixtures aren't composable
17:22	Raynes	mucker: I have acquired a guitar.
17:22	technomancy	onlynickleft: speclj just doesn't seem compelling
17:22	bbloom	onlynickleft: nothing on rich's github account is current
17:22	technomancy	none of the things it offers are things that look useful
17:23	gtrak_	clojure.test harnesses are fine as long as you don't try to use them
17:23	seancorfield	http://clojure.github.io/clojure/clojure.test-api.html
17:23	gtrak_	fixtures, rather
17:23	arohner	gtrak_: I've monkeypatched mine to be useful
17:23	arohner	I'm considering OSSing that
17:23	gtrak_	o rly? can I see?
17:23	gtrak_	ah
17:23	technomancy	huh? fixtures are great
17:23	gtrak_	fixtures means side-effects
17:23	pjstadig	i've created https://github.com/pjstadig/conjecture with some improvements to fixtures
17:24	technomancy	gtrak_: fixtures can mean side-effects, with-redefs, or conditional runs of tests
17:24	arohner	@gtrak_ https://gist.github.com/arohner/5688067
17:24	amalloy	technomancy: fixtures have some issues: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-866
17:24	gtrak_	I prefer doing side-effects within like a setup-services function or something... with-redefs.. maybe
17:25	gtrak_	one thing that's terrible about them is they don't handle exceptions like you'd expect
17:25	technomancy	amalloy: granted. clojure-test-mode ships with a fix for that.
17:25	amalloy	a fix for clojure.test in emacs isn't a fix at all
17:26	technomancy	amalloy: yeah, I hope conjecture could address that
17:27	decaf	justin_smith: mapv does walk trough its argument seq as you said. 58 ms benchmark is true. I'm thrilled.
17:27	onlynickleft	bbl maybe
17:28	amalloy	pjstadig: what does conjecture do? "adds support for idempotent fixtures" doesn't really tell me anything, since of course clojure.test works fine if your fixtures are idempotent
17:28	gtrak_	Raynes: if you like messing with stuff, I really like how mine turned out: http://www.carvinguitars.com/kits/
17:29	pjstadig	amalloy: https://github.com/pjstadig/conjecture/blob/master/CHANGELOG.org && https://github.com/pjstadig/conjecture/blob/master/doc/Fixtures.org
17:29	Wild_Cat`	Carvin do kits? Interesting.
17:30	pjstadig	it's a work in progress, but the idea is that you could compose a fixture multiple times in the same chain for a test and it will only execute the fixture once
17:30	pjstadig	also runs fixtures when you run a single test as a function
17:30	Wild_Cat`	regardless, their guitars sound fantastic. Three of the best guitarists I know play DC127s and wow.
17:31	pjstadig	amalloy: i've also added a singleton fixture that runs once around the entire test run
17:31	gtrak_	Wild_Cat`: http://i.imgur.com/ZWUbt.jpg bolt-plus, swamp ash, stainless-steel frets
17:32	Wild_Cat`	gtrak_: nice -- I don't like burst finishes but that wood looks incredible. How much did it cost you?
17:32	Wild_Cat`	(aww, they don't do 6-string bass kits :( )
17:32	gtrak_	like 600 total I think? it's all dye with minwax tung-oil finish on top
17:33	Wild_Cat`	wow, pretty cheap too.
17:33	Wild_Cat`	might consider those when I inevitably choose to buy myself a guitar.
17:33	gtrak_	648
17:34	Raynes	gtrak_: Meh. I was given a guitar. I wouldn't buy one.
17:34	onlynickleft	Raynes: accoustic?
17:34	Raynes	onlynickleft: Yes.
17:34	gtrak_	I just like messing with gear :-), circuits too
17:35	onlynickleft	Sweet. I just learned Jeff Buckley's Hallelujah on accoustic the other week.
17:35	onlynickleft	Just found out about that song 2 weeks before that.
17:35	onlynickleft	And Sunday I have a piano recital for the lessons I started in Jan. Programmers are apparently very musical.
17:37	Wild_Cat`	onlynickleft: there's lots of maths in music. Maybe that's that.
17:37	onlynickleft	Patterns, not maths.
17:37	onlynickleft	Maybe both, God knows.
17:37	Wild_Cat`	...or maybe it's just that we spent a terrific amount of time learning to learn, and we have fast fingers to begin with
17:38	onlynickleft	Does clojure.test require putting your tests in a special namespace, or do you just put them anywhere and do 'lein test'?
17:38	onlynickleft	Wild_Cat`: nope, not it, not it at all.
17:40	onlynickleft	Oh awesome, it just runs my tests, it doesn't care where I put them.
17:40	onlynickleft	Oh wait yeah it does.
17:41	bbloom	there was an overtone video that was extremely mathematical
17:41	bbloom	super cool stuff
17:42	noprompt	it would be so nice if clojars had a json api.
17:42	bbloom	onlynickleft: Wild_Cat`: here it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mfsnlbd-4xQ
17:42	bbloom	^^ that talk is freaking awesome
17:43	onlynickleft	Oh that reminds me, why isn't clojure-docs.org updated for 1.5.1 etc. anymore?
17:43	gtrak_	Wild_Cat`: here's the raw wood: http://i.imgur.com/S8uz2D5.jpg
17:43	Wild_Cat`	bbloom: thanks for the reminder, I keep telling myself I need to watch those awesome Overtone vids (and learn to use it too)
17:43	gtrak_	and back: http://i.imgur.com/glDG06S.jpg
17:43	Wild_Cat`	gtrak_: lovely! If it was me, I'd have put the thinnest, most transparent coat of varnish money can buy, but hey, your guitar, your choice.
17:44	Morgawr	what's the easiest way to update all the values in a hashmap without touching the keys? The one that has the best performance
17:44	noprompt	Raynes: i'm thinking i'd like to make a tiny patch to one of the fn's in the fs lib.
17:44	Raynes	noprompt: Okay.
17:44	gtrak_	Wild_Cat`: ya, I thought about raw, but I wanted to experiment with dyes
17:44	callen	Raynes: hey! What happened with Linode?
17:44	dnolen	Morgawr: what does that mean?
17:44	Raynes	callen: They had some hardware failures.
17:45	Raynes	callen: We're all good.
17:45	noprompt	Raynes: it would be nice if fs/find-files used re-find instead of re-match
17:45	Wild_Cat`	gtrak_: what can I say, I'm a sucker for natural finishes :D
17:45	noprompt	re-match seems just a tad to strict imho
17:45	Morgawr	dnolen: let's say I have {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}, I want to map inc to all the values and get {:a 2 :b 3 :c 4}
17:45	nDuff	bbloom: yup -- that one was great. I promised my fiancee's girlfriend (a mathematician) that I'd get the link in her direction... trying to remember if I actually followed through on that.
17:45	Morgawr	I can do it with some custom-written function but I was wondering if there was some core function that does it already for me
17:45	callen	Raynes: great. And it was great hanging out with you in LA. Was in too much pain to enjoy the concert though.
17:45	onlynickleft	Is there an alternative to deftest, specifically so I can use a string to define what the test is rather than a literal symbol?
17:46	amalloy	noprompt: i don't agree. you can emulate find with match, and match with find; i don't think it really matters which one fs uses, but i do think it's silly to change now
17:46	Raynes	callen: Yeah, I didn't quite hear you when you gave me the reason for leaving. Was it leg agony?
17:46	pjstadig	onlynickleft: there are testing forms inside of a deftest, but nothing like that for deftest
17:46	Raynes	callen: I couldn't feel my feet by time the concert was over, but it was totally worth it.
17:46	callen	Raynes: feet and back. I have flat feet in the extreme.
17:47	callen	I can handle running but standing in place on a hard floor makes me want to suck bleach.
17:47	noprompt	amalloy: sure. i hear you. but you end up having to write longer patterns in some cases.
17:47	Raynes	callen: Brian and I got selected to attend a private concert being taped for the 6th season of Live From The Artists den. This venue has seating.
17:48	noprompt	maybe not even a patch to that function but at least another function which uses a looser matching strategy.
17:49	noprompt	suppose you wanted to find files in a directory that matched a date pattern, you'd have to wrap the \d{4}-\d\d-\d\d crap in .*? nonsense
17:49	onlynickleft	pjstadig: I see, thanks.
17:49	onlynickleft	Does anyone have experience with "test-this"? It looks like it provides auto-runner capabilities for vanilla clojure.test
17:49	noprompt	i guess you could sort of think of it like a grep
17:50	rasmusto	Morgawr: I've heard it said that a hash map might not be the best data structure for that, but you can do (into {} (map (fn [[k v]] [k (inc v)]) {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}))
17:50	amalloy	noprompt: and what if i wanted to find java.exe files? with your approach i'd need to write #"^java.\.exe$", whereas currently i can write #"java.*\.exe"
17:51	callen	Raynes: I haven't seen the show, is it any good?
17:51	amalloy	neither approach is really better; the change is what's expensive
17:51	Raynes	callen: Never seen it either, but it's a private Imagine Dragons concert so…
17:51	Raynes	:p
17:51	amalloy	not that Raynes cares what i think, but i'd recommend a function that accepts a lambda for filtering, rather than a regex
17:51	noprompt	right, so i guess really what i'm suggesting is separate function
17:51	Morgawr	rasmusto: thanks for that, maybe calling zipmap after getting a list of updated values and the old keys has better performance?
17:52	Morgawr	also, I'm using clojurescript, not sure if that helps or not as far as performance goes
17:52	Raynes	amalloy: There is a 95.3% chance that I never even wrote that code so what you think is right probably is.
17:52	amalloy	then you can write your lambda that uses re-find, someone else can write a lambda that just does #(.startsWith % "foo")
17:52	dnolen	Morgawr: I don't know about fastest, but zipmap solution is pretty clean
17:52	dnolen	(zipmap (keys m) (map inc (vals m)))
17:52	arohner	technomancy: are test selectors documented anywhere, aside from `lein help test`?
17:52	Morgawr	dnolen: yeah that's what I thought of at first
17:53	onlynickleft	technomancy: do you know of a way to get difftest to print the actual/expected using pprint?
17:53	onlynickleft	Sometimes these hashes are pretty involved.
17:53	onlynickleft	*maps whatever
17:53	callen	Morgawr: why do you need fastest?
17:53	dnolen	Morgawr: and it looks like zipmap could be a lot faster in CLJS, could use transients
17:53	technomancy	arohner: not that I know of. I would like to move it out of Leiningen; that functionality clearly doesn't belong there
17:53	noprompt	well it was just a minor annoyance imho. i've got a copy of the version i like so i'll use that.
17:53	gtrak_	into uses transients
17:53	Morgawr	callen: because I'm working on a game engine that uses a lot of maps to bind together objects and entities so I'll be operating on moderately big sequences of maps and altering them
17:53	noprompt	personally i prefer regexes that are permissive with the option to be strict rather than the other way around.
17:53	technomancy	onlynickleft: I don't think so
17:54	callen	Morgawr: godspeed.
17:54	noprompt	but i'd love to know what the tradeoffs are of using re-find over re-match
17:54	Morgawr	I guess I can go with zipmap for the moment, if performance is killing it then I can consider implementing it in javascript natively or finding a better solution
17:54	Morgawr	thanks for the help
17:54	noprompt	*in general
17:54	onlynickleft	Pull request time.
17:55	callen	Morgawr: to be frank, using maps/hash-tables for what a struct would suffice for is pretty ridiculous in general if you're in a genuinely performance-intensive game situation.
17:55	Morgawr	callen: a "struct"?
17:56	amalloy	callen: as ridiculous as using immutable data structures? or as ridiculous as using clojure instead of C? where is it on the ridiculous scale?
17:56	arohner	technomancy: what do you see as the motivating purpose of lein? I don't know that I've heard a clear definition of what does and does not belong in lein?
17:56	noprompt	amalloy: i actually like the lambda idea a lot though.
17:56	callen	amalloy: I was speaking about performance intensive games.
17:56	dnolen	Morgawr: deftype or defrecord
17:56	amalloy	callen: so was i
17:56	technomancy	arohner: the only reason lein has test selectors is that clojure.test has had a total of one patch applied since 2010 =\
17:56	amalloy	why is he writing his game in clojure instead of in C? that's a choice that would be mocked by lots of game devs
17:56	gtrak_	(inc amalloy)
17:56	lazybot	⇒ 60
17:56	callen	amalloy: and yes, if you're in a genuinely performance intensive game use-case, C++ is ideal.
17:57	noprompt	amalloy: honestly that'd make that function a hell of a lot more powerful.
17:57	Morgawr	dnolen: okay, but those end up becoming hashmaps in the end (with maybe some performance improvements) so even if I define my components as records, I don't see how the situation would change (algorithmically-wise)
17:57	amalloy	noprompt: lambdas are always the answer
17:57	noprompt	amalloy: i am finding this to be the case.
17:57	noprompt	:)
17:57	dnolen	amalloy: what do you mean "becoming hashmaps in the end" ?
17:57	amalloy	dnolen: i probably meant whatever Morgawr meant when he said it
17:57	dnolen	amalloy: oops sorry
17:58	dnolen	Morgawr: ^
17:58	noprompt	amalloy: so do you think it would be worth then to add another fn to the lib for doing this?
17:58	Morgawr	dnolen: aren't records just more powerful maps in the end? I mean, they are collections of keys and values
17:58	Morgawr	or am I missing something?
17:58	dnolen	Morgawr: not true
17:59	amalloy	noprompt: if i were in charge of fs, i would accept a pull request adding that function and then reimplementing the current regex-based version in terms of it
17:59	amalloy	but i would not accept a pull request adding just another flavor of regex
17:59	noprompt	Raynes: what say you?
17:59	callen	is there some reason people need to challenge me when I state the obvious?
17:59	noprompt	amalloy: agreed. this is the whole reason i wanted to bring this up. for the discussion.
17:59	dnolen	Morgawr: deftype is very low level built on host types - access time / update times will always out perform maps
17:59	Raynes	Why amalloy thinks I autodisagree with him eludes me, but of course, this is a great idea and I would take that pull request.
17:59	callen	you don't write a serious game in Clojure. I don't know why people feel the need to take up the crusade and defend the faith in response to this. It's not what clojure is made for anyway.
18:00	amalloy	Raynes: i said no such thing!
18:00	noprompt	"autodisagree"
18:00	noprompt	:)
18:00	noprompt	lol
18:00	amalloy	i'm disagreeing now
18:00	Raynes	amalloy: Well, before you were like "Not that Raynes cares what I think" and then "If I were in charge of fs, I'd do x" implying "but Raynes is the sucks and probably won't." :p
18:00	Morgawr	dnolen: yes but the way the code interact with it is the same as it would with a map, right? also keep in mind this is ClojureScript, not Clojure
18:00	technomancy	what's a serious game? does that just mean it's not fun?
18:00	technomancy	you can play this game, but you're not allowed to smile.
18:00	noprompt	(with disagree (respond-to :Raynes))
18:01	Morgawr	also for people talking about "serious games" or "high performance games", this'd be ClojureScript in a browser game so I'm not going for real time 3D graphics with AA and advanced techniques or whatever :)
18:01	amalloy	that's a fair inference from what i said, Raynes, but i didn't mean to suggest you'd disagree. i intended to imply that my opinion is unimportant
18:01	callen	technomancy: meaning it has to be competitive with the current state of audio/visual content.
18:01	noprompt	ok well i'm sure both of you guys are busy, i'll make a little time for it later to day and submit something.
18:01	noprompt	still at work.
18:01	technomancy	boooooring
18:01	gtrak_	callen: real tradeoffs are more interesting than FUD, is my opinion
18:01	dnolen	Morgawr: it depends on how you interact with them, but the performance in general will be better than maps
18:01	Raynes	amalloy: Your opinion is important! If you decide what to do in fs then I don't have to.
18:02	callen	technomancy: I'm a huge fan of small focused indie games, but even still, the limitations remain.
18:02	Morgawr	dnolen: yes but performance aside, the interface would be the same so I could always swap a map with a type without having problems?
18:02	amalloy	technomancy: i recently re-finished mega man x. good game
18:02	Raynes	noprompt: We're so busy that we're sitting 6 feet from each other arguing on IRC about implied meanings of sentences.
18:02	callen	technomancy: I beat Ninja Gaiden for the NES a few months back. proud moment. :P
18:02	Morgawr	or maybe I'm missing something
18:02	dnolen	Morgawr: not a deftype, but you can use defrecord where you would use maps for the most part yes
18:02	technomancy	amalloy: yesss
18:02	noprompt	amalloy: two summer's ago i went on the ultimate megaman challeng.
18:03	callen	gtrak_: no FUD here, just facts.
18:03	technomancy	amalloy: I hope you listened to the Protomen afterwards
18:03	Morgawr	well ok, anyhow, I guess I will go with zipmap and if necessary implement a native function in Javascript, thanks for the help :)
18:03	noprompt	i beat megaman 1-6 on nes and X and X2 on snes.
18:03	callen	technomancy: have you tried Ninja Gaiden (NES) music? It's quite good.
18:03	amalloy	no, but i bet i could download that album in time for my flight
18:03	noprompt	megaman 1 is like the hardest fucking game ever made next to festers quest.
18:03	callen	^^ disagree.
18:03	technomancy	callen: I'll check it out
18:03	callen	noprompt: Ninja Gaiden and Castlevania are harder.
18:04	noprompt	which Castlevania?
18:04	technomancy	ooh nice; deus ex ocremix album
18:04	noprompt	cause i can kick the shit out of simon's quest.
18:04	callen	noprompt: first and third are both brutal. simon's quest was kinda derpy.
18:04	gtrak_	facts need to be more precise
18:04	noprompt	the other ones are kinda tough, and yeah, ninja gaide is hardcore too.
18:04	callen	noprompt: I'm surprised you slogged through it.
18:05	noprompt	callen: yeah but simon's quest has the coolest music. :)
18:05	callen	beating the first Ninja Gaiden was a moment of immense pride for me, but I haven't gotten farther than like the 3rd or 4th level in 2
18:05	callen	you have to learn to play NG like playing an instrument
18:05	noprompt	haha, yeah. gone are the days of "games of skill".
18:06	noprompt	lifeforce is another pretty damn hard game. that and gradius.
18:06	pjstadig	a PPT :(, but really interesting with respect to choosing a programming language for writing a game http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~dpw/popl/06/Tim-POPL.ppt
18:06	arohner	noprompt: have you tried Demon's Souls?
18:06	arohner	new game on xbox & ps3. very skill based, very hard
18:06	noprompt	arohner: i don't think so. is it nes?
18:06	callen	gtrak_: dynamic language runtimes that emphasize the use hash-maps over structs, have mandatory GC, no ability to generate optimized native code, and don't have well-tested and optimized paths to working with OpenGL are a bad idea for a "performance intensive" game.
18:07	gtrak_	this, I agree with :-)
18:07	callen	gtrak_: to say otherwise suggests delusions of grandeur
18:07	pjstadig	pdf version http://www.st.cs.uni-saarland.de/edu/seminare/2005/advanced-fp/docs/sweeny.pdf
18:07	callen	to that end, Clojure is not the language for writing a serious game that is intended to make money. It might suffice for a kid's minecraft clone as long as they don't mind lag.
18:07	gtrak_	blanket statements like 'you can't do that' are more absolute than the reality, that is, there are specific costs that are raised by picking clojure
18:08	noprompt	super metroid was my all time favorite growing up.
18:08	callen	you say specific costs as if using clojure doesn't wall-off entire universes of possibilities in the world of game design.
18:08	noprompt	amalloy: play that one if you haven't already.
18:08	gtrak_	it makes them impractical.. yea, that's the difference
18:09	callen	the only recent'ish language that comes even close to being viable is Go, but that requires a lot of time spent squashing stuff that creates GC pressure.
18:09	callen	and there are other problems with that.
18:09	callen	Rust might work though, whenever it's ready to be used by somebody other than walton and klabnik.
18:10	Morgawr	Clojure and Lisp in general are very powerful and very suitable tools for game development. Obviously the tradeoff is performance and you cannot expect to get Triple A -like performance/results but with the growing indie market of simpler 2D games + phone games and browser-based games, I really see nothing wrong with using Clojure(Script) for it
18:10	noprompt	rust syntax is a soup.
18:11	noprompt	it looks like a little bit of everything.
18:11	technomancy	right; minecraft is only for kids
18:11	rasmusto	technomancy: because it has cartoony graphics, and kids love cartoons
18:11	callen	technomancy: java as opposed to clojure helped with that a great deal, and it still runs like ass.
18:12	callen	if you bake down a non-GC'd Lisp dialect that is more of a layer to something at the hardware level like GOAL you can get away with it. A Lisp sitting on top of the JVM? Come on.
18:12	Morgawr	it's not really "sitting on top", it's "running in"
18:12	Morgawr	there's a bit of a difference in that
18:12	Morgawr	it's not like Clojure is compiled to Java that is compiled to bytecode
18:13	callen	Morgawr: thank you for reminding me why I shouldn't bother continuing this conversation
18:13	amalloy	technomancy: you can't get anywhere as a developer witout http://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/appeals/
18:13	callen	Morgawr: in future though, don't bother with the pedantry when I'm typing quickly.
18:13	gtrak_	I don't know, I think I'd rather code-gen native code than write c++, the real impractical bit of it is raising the cost of re-using any C++ libs
18:13	callen	amalloy: okay, fine, put together a game engine in Clojure that performs similarly to a AAA game with the same graphical results.
18:13	amalloy	no, thanks
18:14	callen	gtrak_: that latter bit is kinda critical for modern game development. you don't want to be baking up your own physics library. Seriously.
18:14	gtrak_	I get that.. but I'm saying it's worthwhile to be more specific with the criticisms
18:14	callen	gtrak_: there's a ton of value-add middleware and third party libraries that get used so it doesn't take 10 years to make a game.
18:14	Morgawr	it's not like people in here are ignorant of the tradeoff performance when running Clojure(Script)
18:14	callen	I was specific earlier.
18:14	callen	I explained what specific language design choices made the type of project not a great idea.
18:15	callen	I even explained how an alternative language is more'ish viable and why.
18:15	Morgawr	callen: what would you use to develop a videogame in a browser?
18:15	Morgawr	out of curiosity
18:15	dnolen	Morgawr: I've said this many times, Clojure makes very different set of design tradeoffs than many FP languages. If you need to drop down you can.
18:15	technomancy	Morgawr: no, everyone who doesn't put performance above maintainability is a kid or an amateur, aren't you paying attention?
18:15	callen	technomancy: stop. come on. don't strawman what I'm saying.
18:15	Morgawr	dnolen: yeah, I love Clojure because of this reason
18:15	callen	technomancy: it's obnoxious and below you.
18:16	callen	talking to you guys about this reminds me a lot of talking to Republicans about Murica. You can't love something unless criticizing it in any way is totally unthinkable.
18:16	callen	or merely mentioning a weak point to it, for that matter
18:16	dnolen	Morgawr: I wouldn't be afraid to write a high performance JS game in CLJS, but you'd have to be stratify your code base into things that absolutely need to be fast and the stuff that doesn't matter so much.
18:16	technomancy	callen: weren't you in here earlier when I was telling Licenser not to teach his brother clojure?
18:16	callen	technomancy: no
18:16	Pupnik	callen, no-one is going to write physics libs in clojure, they will use the ones from java or js
18:17	Licenser	technomancy heh he is still loving it :)
18:17	Morgawr	dnolen: yes, I know, at the moment I'm just working on the design of the whole engine, writing bits of code for the game library and then see how it performs, then eventually stepping down and writing "native" javascript code for the more critical parts
18:17	technomancy	Licenser: no one listens to me!
18:17	callen	This whole time I have qualified what I was saying with, "serious, performance intensive games"
18:17	Licenser	technomancy :) I'm neutering a new functional programmer!
18:17	technomancy	callen: I have no problem with what you're saying about clojure; just what you're saying about games
18:17	callen	Why are you ignoring that as if I'm saying, "writing tetris in Clojure is impossible"?
18:18	callen	Licenser: neutering? You mean mentoring?
18:18	Pupnik	did anyone come in here saying "im writing the crysis killer"
18:18	Pupnik	hes using clojurescript, that should be a clue
18:18	callen	Pupnik: they mentioned performance intensive.
18:18	callen	Pupnik: explicitly so.
18:18	Licenser	callen teehee yea
18:18	gtrak_	dnolen: I think It's a C++ philosophy clojure inherited, 'pay for what you use'
18:18	callen	Pupnik: I mentioned that structuring your data in terms of hash-maps rather than something more static and optimizable like a struct is a contradiction if you really mean "performance intensive"
18:18	Morgawr	callen: performance intensive within the limits of an html5 browser game
18:18	zalzane	if you're supposed to pay for what C++ provides, c++ would be paying you
18:19	callen	it's a legitimately useful language design decision though.
18:19	callen	and is partly how C++ is able to be used across very different sorts of projects.
18:19	gtrak_	zalzane: the JVM's written in C++
18:19	gtrak_	!
18:19	zalzane	gtrak_ that doesnt change that c++ is a horrible language
18:20	gtrak_	it sort of validates horrible languages...
18:20	gtrak_	I like that I can take advantage of them without being bothered by it, really
18:20	callen	Aye, it is, but games aren't long term maintenance products generally speaking. Things "get done" in bad languages in spite of themselves.
18:20	Morgawr	so yeah guys, I apologize for sidetracking the channel like this with my question
18:20	zalzane	get your act together morgawr
18:20	Morgawr	callen: game engines are, though
18:21	Morgawr	you want to make them modular and re-usable
18:21	callen	Morgawr: which happens. cf. crytek, Epic, iD.
18:21	Morgawr	and most games are, ideally, just a scriptable abstraction on top of an engine
18:21	Morgawr	I think Lisp languages are powerful enough to provide such good abstraction
18:21	Morgawr	at an obvious performance tradeoff
18:22	Morgawr	but since my target is to develop not-too-intensive 2D games in a browser with HTML5/Javascript, I really see no problem with this
18:22	Morgawr	also considering ClojureScript provides the possibility of writing native javascript code and natively interfacing with the rest of your code
18:22	Morgawr	so yeah, I don't see the point of this discussion
18:23	gtrak_	the point is to identify tradeoffs and make them while knowing what you're getting yourself into
18:24	gtrak_	at least I hope it is..
18:24	Licenser	Morgawr entirely unrelated: use the language that gives you the most and ignore all the nay sayers, no point in picking X becose it's more Y but you don't enjoy working with it.
18:25	callen	well, maybe. making money is nice. Depends on what sort of project it is.
18:25	callen	if your personal comfort means delivering a product nobody wants, and the point of the product was so that others could use it, then the value of that time just went to /dev/null
18:25	Morgawr	callen: take a look at ImpactJS, it's a great javascript library and the developers are making good money out of licenses for that
18:25	callen	Morgawr: I'm perfectly aware of the JS HTML5 game frameworks.
18:26	callen	Morgawr: including Impact, Akihabara, and the others.
18:26	Licenser	callen but having no compfort has a high chance of meanign that you never deliver a product at all
18:26	Morgawr	in the end, users don't really give a rat's ass about what your game is coded in, so... it's pretty much what Licenser and gtrak_ said, as long as you're aware of the implications it doesn't matter
18:26	callen	Licenser: if you're not professional, that's right.
18:26	callen	Licenser: some people just bite down and do their job.
18:26	noprompt	callen: what does that even mean?
18:27	noprompt	"professional" <-- loaded word
18:27	callen	noprompt: the existence of COBOL contractors.
18:27	gtrak_	develop TMD
18:27	callen	noprompt: do you really think any of them love COBOL?
18:27	noprompt	callen: well if they're willing to do it for money they must be making some compromise internally.
18:28	gtrak_	why don' they generate cobol from their clojure code? :-)
18:28	technomancy	it's interesting to note the etymological connection between "amateur" and "amour"
18:29	callen	well, that's really just it. Not everybody has to have the stars align, the perfect cuppa tea, and a purring cat in their lap to get work done.
18:29	Licenser	callen but it certenly help
18:29	gtrak_	ah, there's a market for cobol code generators: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CA-Telon
18:29	gtrak_	how about that
18:30	callen	gtrak_: I used to work on the other end of that, migrating mainframe systems to .NET
18:30	noprompt	i've never understood how some people associate "biting the bullet" or "not doing what the want to do but getting paid well for it" with professionalism.
18:30	callen	gtrak_: generated COBOL invariably made the migration more annoying and difficult.
18:30	callen	noprompt: a large component of professionalism is putting the product/work output above personal comfort/preference.
18:31	Licenser	I entirely disagree with that
18:31	callen	Licenser: okay, but you'd be wrong.
18:31	technomancy	that's ... too depressing for words?
18:31	callen	It doesn't mean wearing the hair shirt, it means taking the actual purpose of your work seriously.
18:31	Licenser	I entirely disagree with that too
18:31	gtrak_	callen: no doubt.. just saying even cobol programmers can be unprofessional
18:31	callen	technomancy: not for me. I like thinking about how what I do is actually intended to help people and optimize for that.
18:31	noprompt	i turned down a 6K contract job because they wanted me to write the code in PHP.
18:31	callen	gtrak_: what an incredibly irrelevant point to make.
18:32	technomancy	noprompt: I would refer to that as professional dignity
18:32	callen	noprompt: I'm wrapping up a horrific PHP contract as we speak.
18:32	callen	noprompt: very happy to have it ending.
18:32	Licenser	I'd hire noprompt over callen
18:32	callen	Licenser: don't express pointless ad hominem sentiments like that.
18:32	bbloom	Licenser: i'd never hire callen
18:32	gtrak_	callen: you miss the finer point :-).. there's always people that want to make more out of what they have.. that's not unprofessional
18:33	noprompt	callen: when you don't have a say so i can agree with "biting the bullet", but if you have free will why choose unhappiness?
18:33	callen	noprompt: I just got done saying that I wasn't saying "wear the hair shirt"
18:34	callen	bbloom: why be pointless negative? you don't have nearly enough information to make a call like that, so the only point of saying so in a public channel is to attack me.
18:34	callen	pointlessly*
18:34	gtrak_	there's also people that hate abstraction in any form
18:34	callen	they would be irrational.
18:34	Licenser	callen it's just making the point, someone doing what he enjoys will do it better then someone who does it because he thinks he must. Also someone who turns down a job because he disagrees is much more likely to offer insight, imprvements and laternatively then someone doing what he's told
18:34	bbloom	callen: i have more than enough information to make that call. you're abrasive, argumentative, and generally unpleasant
18:35	callen	bbloom: OTOH, I seem to be able to handle getting attacked on all sides by people in here for making what is a pretty uncontroversial point about trade-offs without resorting to saying I would never work with them.
18:35	Morgawr	callen: why are you in this channel? genuine question. Following your reasoning, you'd never use Clojure for anything
18:35	callen	Licenser: enjoying what you do is good, helps you to get better at it faster. It's not sufficient for what I was speaking about earlier.
18:36	noprompt	callen: i wasn't attacking you, just sharing my POV.
18:36	callen	Morgawr: that is clearly not what I was saying.
18:36	noprompt	FWIW
18:36	callen	Morgawr: stop strawmanning what I've been saying.
18:36	callen	Morgawr: where did I say that? I even explicitly laid out an example of the sorts of things Clojure is great for.
18:36	Morgawr	okay, I apologize for misunderstanding what you said
18:36	callen	that's an understatement.
18:36	gtrak_	I'm picking a battle over a specific trend, reduction in place of facts
18:37	bbloom	callen: i'm just a little tired of you derailing productive conversations, confusing newcomers, and fostering a hostile environment
18:37	callen	bbloom: I've been calmly explaining my point from earlier, the attacks were coming from others.
18:38	bbloom	callen: i have no doubt you believe that you are being calm and civil, but your word and phrase choice has a consistently hostile tone
18:39	callen	That's reaching a bit. Is it somehow unfactual or hostile to describe what Morgawr did a moment ago as strawmanning the point I was making? Because that's what it was. Deliberate misinterpretation into a ridiculous facsimile of a legitimate point for the sake of attacking it so that I look stupid by proxy.
18:40	bbloom	^^ case in point ^^
18:40	callen	Stating the facts is hostile. Am I understanding you correctly?
18:40	gtrak_	overblowing is being imprecise
18:41	hiredman	bbloom: have you considered /ignore?
18:41	Morgawr	callen: I apologized for being rude, I just asked a genuine question because you seemed very hostile towards anything that wasn't 100% performance and felt you were a bit resentful towards clojure. I apparently was wrong so I apologized. It wasn't my intention, really.
18:41	bbloom	it doesn't matter how right you are if you sound like an asshat in the process. i'm telling you how you are perceived, and not just by me. consider it a datapoint. i'm done
18:41	callen	Morgawr: I'm repeating for the third or fourth time now that what I was saying was scoped to a specific sort of project. namely, "performance intensive" && "game"
18:42	callen	clearly I should give up expressing anything that cannot be gift-wrapped in 140 characters in here.
18:42	callen	Anything else is likely to get lost, twisted, turned against me, etc etc
18:42	ztellman	callen: those are both very relative terms
18:42	callen	ztellman: certainly but the implication is that it's a project meant to be comparable with the current state of the gaming industry.
18:42	ztellman	callen: I don't agree with that at all
18:42	noprompt	wow i would have never thought to make a user.clj file, that's so cool.
18:43	callen	ztellman: that implies that there is a higher standard for "fitness for purpose" than a learning project.
18:43	ztellman	"performance intensive" means "I need to pay attention to the computational cost of things"
18:43	amalloy	hiredman: i'm worried my /ignore list will grow so large that my system starts swapping, in order to hide all participants int his unfriendly conversation
18:43	ztellman	"game" means something that's fun
18:43	callen	ztellman: the thing is, we probably agree on the implications, but not on the scoping implied by the qualifiers.
18:43	mthvedt	amalloy: use a trie
18:43	noprompt	yeah, could we tone this down?
18:44	Morgawr	^
18:44	technomancy	(inc mthvedt)
18:44	pkmnBlue	well, what have we learned?
18:44	lazybot	⇒ 3
18:44	callen	pkmnBlue: don't bother saying anything people can disagree with.
18:44	bbloom	amalloy: mthvedt: both excellent jokes. my apologies for the noise
18:44	gtrak_	disagree in interesting ways?
18:44	callen	pkmnBlue: especially if they are feeling defensive about their technology choices.
18:45	hiredman	amalloy: mine is 185 entries, and it does pretty well
18:45	callen	I get that some people can feel embattled because they're trying to introduce clojure at work but that was unmerited and unconstructive.
18:46	akhudek	mthvedt: cache-oblivious trie would handle all levels of discussion with high performance
18:46	amalloy	hiredman: my client is so abysmal it doesn't remember /ignore across program restarts. on the other hand, that enables me to cavalierly block for a day people who are generally friendly enough
18:47	callen	amalloy: if you use irssi you can set up permanent ignores in the .irssi/config
18:47	callen	I wonder what client that is though.
18:47	hiredman	amalloy: hmmm, yeah, expiring ignores would be an interesting feature
18:47	technomancy	yeah, it seems like defaulting to a decaying /ignore would be a neat feature
18:48	gtrak_	someone was discussing a distributed /ignore in here a few months ago with me
18:48	amalloy	hiredman: do you still have Raynes on ignore from three years ago?
18:48	callen	gtrak_: Zed Shaw had Utu.
18:48	technomancy	gtrak_: that would take care of Lajla
18:48	clojurebot	excusez-moi
18:48	callen	gtrak_: he abandoned it though.
18:48	hiredman	yes
18:48	gtrak_	ah, neat
18:48	hiredman	and LauJensen
18:52	noprompt	callen: how do i page up in irssi?
18:52	technomancy	https://twitter.com/LiamAbigail1/status/340528414740074496 I don't evn
18:52	callen	noprompt: pgup works fine for me, I'm in GNU Screen + irssi. That's not working for you?
18:52	callen	noprompt: oh you must be on a mac, right?
18:52	noprompt	callen: yep!
18:52	noprompt	:\|
18:52	callen	noprompt: http://osxdaily.com/2007/10/29/fix-page-up-key-in-terminalapp-to-work-with-irssi/
18:53	callen	noprompt: I actually wrote a blog post about fixing some other stuff in irssi
18:53	noprompt	ah thx
18:53	callen	noprompt: http://bitemyapp.com/post/fixing-arrow-keys-in-iterm-and-terminal-app-for-mac-os-x/
18:53	akhudek	technomancy: that's a really really poor random tweet bot
18:53	callen	noprompt: not having channel left/right work in irssi on OS X was driving me nuts.
18:53	noprompt	technomancy: i need to favorite that
18:54	callen	akhudek: markov chains?
18:54	technomancy	akhudek: the amazing part is that it seems to mismatch the gender of the pic with the gender of the name with ~90% reliability
18:54	akhudek	callen: looks more like uniform bag of words sampling
18:54	bbloom	technomancy: maybe the classifier only has 10% errors, but they swapped their enum values? :-)
18:55	technomancy	bbloom: it's remarkable
18:55	noprompt	callen: thanks for this. i used to use erc in emacs but then the company decided to block usage of all "non-standard" ports.
18:56	noprompt	callen: now i have to use ssh + irssi.
18:56	technomancy	noprompt: erc over mosh is <3
18:56	technomancy	but I guess mosh is probably nonstandard =\
18:56	callen	noprompt: irritating. yeah. I use mosh -> GNU Screen ( irssi )
18:56	callen	technomancy: couldn't he tunnel it?
18:56	noprompt	technomancy: does it use ports other than 22, 8080, etc?
18:57	technomancy	I like instantly reconnecting to an ERC instance connected to 4 different chat networks as soon as my network comes back up
18:57	technomancy	noprompt: yeah, needs a bunch of UDP ports opened
18:57	technomancy	callen: kinda defeats the point
18:57	technomancy	as far as the auto-reconnect goes
18:57	technomancy	which is the best part IMO
18:57	callen	technomancy: I guess you're right. I do like opening my laptop and having it "just work"
18:57	noprompt	well i can check that out at home i suppose.
18:57	callen	noprompt: also mosh is "mobile-shell" on homebrew, not mosh.
18:58	callen	noprompt: mosh on homebrew is some communist scheme thing
18:58	technomancy	stalin?
18:58	callen	I tried to get them to fix it, no dice. :)
18:58	callen	technomancy: Trotskyite. Continuous revolution.
18:58	noprompt	callen: thanks again. boy the spirit in this room is suddenly lifting. ;)
18:59	noprompt	technomancy: fwiw, i guess i should thank you for the esk. w/o that and evil mode i probably would have never left vim.
19:00	noprompt	the vim + tmux hackery was killing me.
19:00	amalloy	esk sounds like some kind of rodent
19:00	callen	noprompt: if you want some lovecraftian Emacs inspiration: https://github.com/bitemyapp/dotfiles/
19:00	technomancy	meh; the starter kit is such a hack
19:00	callen	noprompt: 412k LOC, 340-380k of Elisp.
19:00	technomancy	I mean I'm glad you like it
19:00	technomancy	but it's pretty dated
19:00	callen	noprompt: has roughly the same functionality as the ESK, but a little more up to date.
19:01	callen	well, has more functionality, but a lot of it is stuff you won't care about :)
19:01	noprompt	technomancy: nevertheless it helped get me off the ground. at some point i'll probably pick through the parts i like and fold it in to my init.el
19:01	technomancy	I'm just waiting till I have time to properly deprecate it
19:01	callen	noprompt: I have a nice per-use-case modularization in my dotfiles, but I don't really use package managers.
19:02	callen	not for Emacs anyway.
19:02	noprompt	callen: i'm still new to emacs, probably two months at this point.
19:02	noprompt	but this is also good to know about.
19:03	callen	noprompt: I had a couple years where I took a break from emacs to get better with vim and the cool stuff the young kids were using, I've otherwise been an Emacs user for a long time.
19:03	callen	noprompt: you could rapidly become a more fluent Emacs user than myself if you put in some time deliberately practicing and exploring.
19:03	noprompt	callen: honestly evil-mode made it pretty easy to switch.
19:04	noprompt	that and keychord
19:04	callen	noprompt: good. Vimmers don't often believe me that evil-mode is fine :)
19:04	callen	noprompt: I'm surprised you like key-chord
19:04	technomancy	just don't get too used to the idea of pulling in a big glob of disorganized, undocumented code you don't understand and becoming reliant on that.
19:05	callen	noprompt: yeah, what technomancy said. Don't just yank my dotfiles, read it and see how I modularized things. Integrate one thing at a time.
19:06	Morgawr	am I bad for using vim for Clojure? :)
19:06	technomancy	most of the good stuff from uncontroversially-good the starter kit is in https://github.com/technomancy/better-defaults
19:06	callen	the desire to not just dump a bunch of code into my emacs is why I avoid package managers for now. I might modernize later.
19:06	callen	Morgawr: it's a popular choice. Fireplace makes it nicer.
19:06	technomancy	Morgawr: as long as you can avoid writing vimscript you should be fine
19:06	Raynes	Morgawr: I currently use Vim for Clojure. I frequently switch between Vim and Emacs.
19:06	Raynes	Meh, you can write Vim stuff in Python if you want. It isn't a huge deal.
19:08	callen	Raynes: have you tried vim-easymotion?
19:09	Raynes	callen: No.
19:09	callen	there's a version for Emacs as well, but you've been using vim.
19:09	callen	Raynes: give it a whirl, it's pretty sweet.
19:09	callen	Raynes: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2yysefm&s=7
19:10	noprompt	oh ace-jump-mode?
19:10	noprompt	that's the bomb.
19:11	noprompt	the only gripe i generally have about emacs is identation and syntax highlighting.
19:11	callen	it seems to depend on the language for me.
19:11	callen	Stuff like Ruby works great.
19:11	callen	Erlang too
19:11	noprompt	yeah it seems like you need to do a little customization with some stuff.
19:12	noprompt	like i just discovered the electric-mode stuff recently when working with js so } would automatically dedent.
19:12	noprompt	one thing i need to work on is my tab key.
19:13	noprompt	oh another awesome package is autocomplete. holy smokes, that package is amazing.
19:14	noprompt	sorry. heh, emacs makes me super excited.
19:14	technomancy	ah youthful exuberance... it's so refreshing
19:15	callen	technomancy: I was trying to ask you yesterday, have you read any of the Culture novels?
19:15	technomancy	hm; doesn't ring a bell
19:16	callen	technomancy: Iain M. Banks?
19:16	technomancy	I have seen that name
19:16	technomancy	in bookstores
19:16	callen	technomancy: they're excellent sci-fi, you should check it out.
19:16	technomancy	cool
19:16	callen	technomancy: starting with consider phlebas or player of games.
19:16	technomancy	I am reading the Cyberiad right now, which is hilarious despite being translated from Polish
19:17	callen	technomancy: I haven't read any Lem, would you recommend that or something else?
19:17	technomancy	I've only read Solaris apart from this
19:17	technomancy	it's good but a lot more serious
19:18	technomancy	if you're in the mood for philosophizing
19:19	technomancy	the cyberiad is short stories, so maybe a better place to start
19:20	noprompt	technomancy: i've never read Solaris, but the movie (the original russian version) is incredible.
19:20	technomancy	noprompt: it's on my list. I think I'd like it from what I've read.
19:20	technomancy	opinions appear to be mixed
19:20	callen	noprompt: have you seen Stalker?
19:20	technomancy	callen: I don't think so
19:20	noprompt	technomancy: it's out of control with the goodness.
19:21	callen	noprompt: Tarkovsky did Stalker too, I really liked it.
19:21	technomancy	noprompt: I have a hard time imagining how it would transition into a film
19:21	technomancy	which probably means I should stay away from the hollywood one and go with th emore unconventional take =)
19:21	callen	technomancy: it's a different story though.
19:21	noprompt	callen: no i haven't seen it but since you're reminding me i'm jotting it down.
19:22	callen	technomancy: the focus is very different.
19:22	noprompt	callen: that guy has a lot of really good movies.
19:22	callen	technomancy:
19:22	callen	woops
19:22	callen	noprompt: aye
19:22	callen	noprompt: if you like Russian cinema in general, Kidnapping Caucasian Style is silly and fun.
19:25	noprompt	so far most of the russian and eastern european material i've viewed has been very good. usually heavy on the philosophy. good stuff.
19:25	ztellman	technomancy: if you like Cyberiad, make sure all the other Lem translations you read are by Michael Kandel
19:26	noprompt	there was a nice collection of movies called "The Masters of Russian Animation"
19:26	ztellman	he's less literal, and a lot truer to the spirit as a result
19:26	noprompt	some of the animation in those movies on a technical level is just mind blowing.
19:26	callen	noprompt: KCS isn't philosophical, just fun. :)
19:27	technomancy	ztellman: noted; thanks. I'm amazed how well the wordplay survives the translation.
19:27	ztellman	technomancy: I can't read Polish, but I've spoke to people who can, and they confirm it's very loose translation
19:28	ztellman	still, I think it captures something that a literal translation would trample all over
19:29	technomancy	there's always that tension
19:29	ztellman	oh, also, if you like Cyberiad you'll probably like Jack Vance's Dying Earth collection
19:29	ztellman	assuming you haven't already read it
19:29	hiredman	hah!
19:30	technomancy	yeah, that's two votes in one day
19:30	ztellman	oh, ha, did someone already say that?
19:30	technomancy	it was a while ago
19:30	technomancy	and possibly a different channel
19:30	hiredman	it was in #emacs
19:31	hiredman	jack vance passed away a few days ago
19:32	ztellman	really?
19:32	technomancy	frequently bought with The Book of the New Sun, which I also had recommended to me recently
19:32	ztellman	that's sad to hear
19:32	hiredman	yes, the 26th
19:32	ztellman	technomancy: yeah, was about to mention that too
19:32	ztellman	very different style/tone, though
19:51	zoldar	I'm trying
19:51	zoldar	oops
19:54	dnolen	technomancy: I think both Solaris films work well, but I think the book is something else
19:54	zoldar	I'm trying to make a simple hangman game (command-line based), handling user input as a lazy sequence. In current implementation, the game state seems to be one step behind the input. I wonder if it's at all doable using a lazy sequence: https://gist.github.com/zoldar/5688673 . Maybe I'm missing something obvious?
19:55	noprompt	dnolen: i never saw the newer one. is it any good?
19:55	Bronsa	o
19:55	dnolen	noprompt: Soderbergh's no Tartovsky, but he's not bad
19:56	noprompt	dnolen: i think part of what put me off was clooney but maybe i'll give it a chance.
19:59	dnolen	noprompt: I think both films emphasize the psychological aspects of the novel which are great, but both have to ignore the scientific satire for sake of time
20:01	noprompt	(bench (+ 1 1))
20:01	noprompt	WARNING: Final GC required 5.224976081480942 % of runtime
20:01	noprompt	uh? wut?
20:01	noprompt	:/
20:05	noprompt	hmm... has anyone seen that happen with criterium before?
20:06	ztellman	noprompt: yes, you're creating a bunch of Longs
20:07	noprompt	huh?
20:08	noprompt	i can't bench anything though, it just locks up.
20:08	Morgawr	how do I use stuff like clojure.walk/walk inside a clojurescript rhino repl? I started the repl with leiningen and I am in cljs.user but when I try to use walk it prints out an error
20:08	ztellman	oh, I thought that was just an initial warning
20:08	noprompt	(bench (Thread/sleep 1000))
20:08	Morgawr	I think I'm missing the namespace or something
20:08	noprompt	WARNING: Final GC required 5.305805923608734 % of runtime
20:08	noprompt	right out of the example in the README
20:09	Morgawr	oh nvm, I had to use (load-file )
20:11	noprompt	i'm not sure if i should report this or if it's something i'm doing wrong on my end.
20:12	ztellman	noprompt: usually that warning is printed before a bunch of other stuff
20:12	ztellman	are you killing the task too early, maybe?
20:13	noprompt	yeah i think that's what i was doing. i guess i was just confused because i didn't expect a long delay or the output to be different from what's shown in the README.
20:14	noprompt	ah the with-progress-reporting macro makes it all clear now.
20:17	Morgawr	well, to answer myself with the question I asked a few hours ago about mapping onto values and what's the best performance... in ClojureScript apparently using a zipmap on keys and vals of a map takes double the time it takes to perform a walk of a hashmap
20:17	Morgawr	so I guess I'll be using a walk
20:17	Morgawr	takes more or less double the time*
20:18	mikethepurple	Wow, didn't know that
20:21	noprompt	technomancy: is it possible to automatically align docstrings in clojure-mode?
20:25	dnolen	Morgawr: yeah it shouldn't be that slow, looking at Clojure's implementation we could do better
20:25	Morgawr	dnolen: http://www.morgawr.eu/p/1370045233.png this is some naive test I did, just taking 10000 random values and multiplying them with random values, left is clojurescript, right is clojure
20:26	Morgawr	it doesn't count for a lot but I think the difference is there
20:26	dnolen	Morgawr: I'm you're running those in the Rhino REPL
20:26	dnolen	I'm assuming
20:26	Morgawr	yes
20:27	dnolen	Morgawr: Rhino is useless for benchmarking 100-1000X than modern JS engines
20:27	dnolen	100X-1000X slower
20:27	Morgawr	I was just looking at the difference between the two methods, not really looking at the numbers
20:27	dnolen	gotcha
20:27	Morgawr	more about the relationship between those two numbers
20:27	Morgawr	and yeah, it is a naive test :)
20:27	dnolen	Morgawr: even there it will be pretty misleading
20:27	dnolen	as Rhino is crap
20:28	Morgawr	but yeah, I'll implement walking as a general implementation, if things start to go wrong and performance drop I'll swap with zipmap just to test and eventually look for another solution maybe
20:28	dnolen	Morgawr: V8 seems more analogous to JVM in terms of perf profile shape
20:43	Morgawr	mmm.. I have a question... I am calling clojure.walk/walk in a .clj macro file for my clojurescript library, when I call that macro from another namespace (I use :require-macros etc etc) I need to also :require [clojure.walk] else it says it cannot find a reference for clojure.walk.walk
20:43	Morgawr	do I need to require all the namespaces used in my macros all the time or is there another way around it?
20:45	onlynickleft	Any ideas why (use 'difftest.core) in the repl says FileNotFoundException when lein-difftest is in my :profiles :dev :plugins?
20:46	tomjack	onlynickleft: plugins are loaded in leiningen's jvm, not the project's jvm
20:46	onlynickleft	My plan is to write an auto-runner that just runs difftest manually via Clojure whenever some file changes in the project.
20:46	onlynickleft	Oh.
20:46	tomjack	if you want it in your project put it in :dependencies
20:47	onlynickleft	Hmm, I've done that too, and I still got this exception.
20:47	tomjack	that would be because lein-difftest does not define a difftest.core
20:48	tomjack	oh, I see
20:48	onlynickleft	Oh!
20:48	tomjack	there's an inner support project
20:48	onlynickleft	It's just difftest.
20:48	tomjack	[difftest "1.3.8"]
20:48	onlynickleft	Confusing.
20:48	tomjack	yap
20:48	onlynickleft	Right, found that on Clojars just now.
20:48	onlynickleft	Thanks tom.. or is it jack.
20:48	tomjack	I presume lein-difftest loads that inside the project jvm
20:48	onlynickleft	Yeah.
20:49	onlynickleft	Looks like lein-difftest is just a trampoline just a wrapper for difftest
20:49	onlynickleft	Oops, didn't mean to paste that, meant to paste https://github.com/brentonashworth/lein-difftest/blob/master/src/leiningen/difftest.clj
20:49	onlynickleft	emacs copying things when I delete them is quite weird and I want it to stop.
20:50	onlynickleft	But irregardless.
20:50	onlynickleft	>:)
20:52	arohner	does slingshot not catch (throw (ex-info ...))?
20:55	onlynickleft	How hard would it be to combine something like weavejester's ns-tracker with difftest to print colorized test output just like lein-difftest does, but re-run every test every time a source file changes?
20:56	onlynickleft	I think I know conceptually how to glue these together, I just don't know much about the leiningen plugin system, and it looks overwhelmingly complicated, even for small plugins like this would be.
20:58	weavejester	onlynickleft: The plugin system is actually pretty simple
20:59	weavejester	onlynickleft: If you run "lein blah foo", it calls the function (leiningen.blah/blah "foo")
21:00	onlynickleft	Oh, thanks. That is simple.
21:00	onlynickleft	weavejester: I think I misunderstand how to use ns-tracker.. this lib doesn't loop through, watching things, does it? I have to create my own loop, is that so?
21:01	onlynickleft	Because I ran it just now and it exited immediately after the doseq.
21:01	weavejester	onlynickleft: Right. It just returns a function that tells you what has changed since you last ran it.
21:03	onlynickleft	Is (while true ...) efficient and fine?
21:04	onlynickleft	Awesome! I just made an automatic test-rerunner. Now to figure out how to make it colorize its output via difftest.
21:04	onlynickleft	Clojure is fun :)
21:12	dnolen	Morgawr: funny enough looking it to this makes me realize that Clojure's handling of keys / vals fns is particularly clever
21:19	onlynickleft	Hmm, is it a feature or a bug that clojure.test doesn't consider it a test-error when the test file contains an undefined symbol?
21:22	gfredericks	probably not an intentional feature
21:23	gfredericks	I don't know that clojure.test aims to control how the file is loaded
21:23	onlynickleft	Ambiguity! I call ambiguity on you!
21:23	onlynickleft	Oh.
21:23	gfredericks	which would be the only way to provide that feature
21:23	onlynickleft	Right.
21:23	gfredericks	I don't know the clojure.test internals, but that's my guess
21:24	gfredericks	presumably your test runner could wrap such things if it wanted to
21:24	onlynickleft	That's my plan. Just a try/catch/println. Or TCP if you will, a la REPL.
21:25	onlynickleft	Or rather, try/catch/println (if printable), i.e. TCP/IP
21:27	gfredericks	TCP/IP is a good abbreviation for it
21:27	onlynickleft	Seems legit.
21:27	gfredericks	"The Clojure Parenthesis (is pretty)"
21:28	onlynickleft	Dang. Turns out my idea of an auto-runner wrapper around difftest using ns-tracker isn't as perfect as I thought it'd be.
21:29	onlynickleft	Some hard problems to solve, like if I do (apply run-tests namespaces) then it will be less verbose, but if there's an exception in one of the test files, I can't print exactly which one had the exception.
21:29	onlynickleft	I guess I can just let it die upon exception.
21:30	noprompt	gfredericks: i absolutely love parens.
21:30	noprompt	let the record show this.
21:31	onlynickleft	Is there a reasonable way to run another leiningen task within a normal Clojure function?
21:31	onlynickleft	(Besides shelling out.)
21:32	noprompt	i'm going to start refering to fridays as "documentation fridays"
21:32	onlynickleft	That bad eh?
21:32	noprompt	for some reason i always find myself writing a lot of documentation and doing code clean up on fridays.
21:32	noprompt	onlynickleft: i don't think it's bad at all. i actually really enjoy it.
21:32	noprompt	there's something wondeful about revisting a code base 5 months later and the code is clean and the documenation is clear.
21:33	onlynickleft	Wouldn't know.
21:33	noprompt	i really like the concept of literate programming too.
21:35	noprompt	writing documentation and explaining your code can also help you refactor it.
21:35	noprompt	at least that's what i've discovered.
21:35	noprompt	i dunno maybe i'm just a shitty programmer.
21:35	noprompt	or maybe i just give a shit.
21:35	noprompt	:)
21:35	onlynickleft	I'm constantly cleaning up my code.
21:36	onlynickleft	And other people's code.
21:36	onlynickleft	But it's still always crap. No matter how much or little time passes.
21:36	onlynickleft	The only code I like is the stuff I see in the stable Clojure tools. i.e. ring, compojure...
21:36	noprompt	nothing says "fuck you" like leaving beind a pile of undocumented, speghetti code.
21:37	onlynickleft	Yep.
21:37	onlynickleft	People have been telling me "F U" quite a lot.
21:37	onlynickleft	For months.
21:37	tomjack	why does fd/process-dom merge dom and domp in addition to the merge-dom stuff in logic.clj?
21:37	noprompt	haha, yeah. i've been going through one of the biggest "fuck you"'s of my career.
21:38	noprompt	it's a mangled pile of interpolated php and js.
21:38	noprompt	of course, to be fair, it was written 6 or 7 years ago during the close of the web dark ages.
21:39	tomjack	oh I guess wildly that logic.clj's merging is when different vars with doms are unified, and the thing in fd is for adding a different dom to the same var
21:39	noprompt	all i can say is thank god for the mysql workbench and foreign keys.
21:40	noprompt	had i not had those two things i would have been royally screwed.
21:49	dnolen	keys/vals operations now up to 8X faster on CLJS, some ops seem near 2X of the JVM http://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/a879aee5b8b4246a942c29a733fdc752d11e30ce
21:49	dnolen	Morgawr: thanks for pointing out the issue
21:51	akhudek	wow, dnolen you seem to be on an optimization tear lately
21:51	dnolen	akhudek: well I get annoyed whenever CLJS ops are ridiculously slow :)
21:52	dnolen	akhudek: I look forward to the day that you can easily predict the perf difference between CLJ JVM & CLJS
21:53	dnolen	akhudek: honestly most of my optimization boil down to "What did Rich do?"
21:53	akhudek	dnolen: there are many times I've been surprised by the jvm when trying to improve the speed of things
21:54	akhudek	dnolen: performance tuning can be really difficult
21:55	dnolen	akhudek: no argument there
22:00	gdev_	then compares tuning a piano with tuning an electric organ and everyone is suddenly enlightened
22:08	tomjack	,(do (defrecord Foo [^:bar bar ^{:baz :bing} bing]) (map meta (Foo/getBasis)))
22:08	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
22:09	tomjack	(you get the metadata :D)
22:13	gfredericks	only way to get the basis of a general record instance is reflectively?
22:17	tomjack	I'm probably just going to use a macro
22:18	tomjack	since there are no anonymous ITypes anyway?
22:26	gfredericks	what is an anonymous IType?
22:29	callen	gfredericks: deja vu
22:30	gfredericks	o_O?
22:30	tomjack	like if you could reify a record type
22:30	clojurebot	The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offence. -- Dijkstra
22:31	tomjack	it's moot, I realized only working for deftype/defrecord would be silly anyway
22:32	gfredericks	deftype doesn't have a basis does it?
22:33	tomjack	yeah it does
22:33	tomjack	not that you probably should use it for anything..
22:34	gfredericks	oh weird
22:35	noprompt	boy this meta data stuff comes in handy. somehow i always for get about it :/
22:48	callen	noprompt: what are you using it for?
22:48	callen	noprompt: I usually use it to annotate functions.
22:51	john2x	can't enlive's html-resource fn read html strings? i'm getting NPE when passing a string to it
22:51	noprompt	callen: i have some files which contain data where the individual records aren't timestamped, however the files are.
22:52	callen	john2x: just check the code.
22:52	noprompt	callen: the records are being imported in to a database and some of the data changes between files.
22:53	noprompt	callen: i need to be able to compare the differences between the records in t--- File clojure/2013-06-01.log
00:49	nonuby	using lein ring server in dev I have to create my own nrepl endpoint right?
00:50	nonuby	or thinking using :repl-options { init-ns project.repl } and define (defn start-server [] run-jetty .. join? false from there) then I get best of both worlds i.e. repl ?
00:52	callen	nonuby: I usually have a "boot" function that inits the db connections and serves the app
00:53	nonuby	makes sense, I just want to make sure Ive not missed something and no one bothers lein ring server in dev as no repl?
00:54	callen	tbqh, I just run lein ring server and boot a normal repl and do not run the app inside the REPL
00:55	callen	I'm generally testing functions and inspecting data in the REPL. I don't really need to see the request logs in there.
00:55	nonuby	true, i guess this is problem xy, is probably testing at the right level I shouldnt need to push stuff in and out over the local http endpoint to validate my dev
00:56	nonuby	rethinks
00:56	tomjack	dnolen: I took a stab at removing the fd specificity: https://github.com/tomjack/core.logic/compare/generalized-domains
00:56	tomjack	I'm guessing we should probably leave fd/dom and fd/in intact, huh..
00:56	callen	nonuby: that's precisely it. I try to keep neat little "models" functions that handle data access patterns that are easily testable
00:56	callen	nonuby: the HTTP handlers are separate, and there's a separate template rendering function too.
00:57	callen	nonuby: do you just want to see the app? It's a public website with a github repo.
00:57	nonuby	sure!
00:57	callen	nonuby: github.com/bitemyapp/neubite/ it's a simple CMS with authentication/admin
00:57	callen	uhm, just uh...ignore the request context magic.
00:57	callen	personal preference thing.,
01:01	callen	nonuby: anyway let me know if you have any questions.
01:01	callen	nonuby: it's built from a luminus template.
01:02	tomjack	if every domain ns defines its own in and dom then I guess removing the fd specificity is a much smaller patch
01:02	callen	with differences littered throughout.
01:02	callen	tomjack: which lib?
01:02	tomjack	with no protocol changes needed
01:02	tomjack	callen: core.logic
01:02	technomancy	cemerick: duuuuuude https://github.com/technomancy/nrepl-discover
01:05	technomancy	in-flight hax
01:05	cemerick	technomancy: righteous! :-D
01:05	nonuby	callen, thanks, will have a browse
01:06	cemerick	global namespace trawling FTW and all that
01:08	cemerick	technomancy: I love it when a plan comes together.
01:10	cemerick	technomancy: Still seems like some seriously-tight coupling between the server and client, re: overlays, etc
01:10	Raynes	cemerick: Can I be a part of your A-Team? :D
01:10	Raynes	I'm a crafty little bugger.
01:10	cemerick	Raynes: dude, surely you're a founding member?
01:12	cemerick	technomancy: do you really want to reinvent X11 over nREPL? ;-P
01:13	cemerick	Raynes: BTW, any more talk about you having a guitar in LA, and I'll assume that you'll be bussing dishes in a diner waiting for screenplay callbacks in three months
01:15	callen	this is the hardest time I've ever had understanding the purpose of a library and I've used Haskell before.
01:16	Raynes	cemerick: Man, I didn't even get to play it. I broke a string tuning the damned thing.
01:16	Raynes	cemerick: I was trying to tune one string, but was tightening the wrong one.
01:16	cemerick	nice
01:16	Raynes	So I was like "Y U NO CHANGE TONE" and then POP
01:16	cemerick	I've been meaning to get my guitar out of the attic of late
01:17	Raynes	So now I have to go to a guitar store and buy strings tomorrow.
01:17	cemerick	Haven't touched it since high school :-O
01:17	callen	technomancy: so what does this help with in nrepl? I'm a bit dense and don't quite get it.
01:17	callen	technomancy: searching docstrings in an ns?