#clojure – 2013-05-30

2013-05-30

00:01	n_b	dnolen: So basically you'd accummulate changes and then request a frame to do all the updates in?
00:01	dnolen	n_b: yes
00:02	dnolen	n_b: but requestAnimationFrame can be called at any time, multiple times
00:02	dnolen	doesn't really matter
00:02	dnolen	which is what you want
00:03	dnolen	I don't mean the callback, I mean you can requestAnimationFrame again and again and simply will queue it up once when it's most convenient to actually execute the callback
00:04	cgag	has anyone had any experience using any javascript promise libraries with clojuescript and node?
00:04	tomjack	well the callback will be called again and again in that case, yes?
00:04	dnolen	tomjack: no
00:05	tomjack	my test suggests otherwise
00:05	tomjack	(function() { var cb = function(){console.log('cb');}; requestAnimationFrame(cb); requestAnimationFrame(cb); })()
00:05	tomjack	logs 'cb' twice
00:06	dnolen	https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/window.requestAnimationFrame
00:06	dnolen	tomjack: which doesn't really prove anything
00:06	dnolen	your example I mean
00:06	dnolen	since the cb and the work is trivial
00:07	tomjack	hmm, not sure if I'm missing something or if we're miscommunicating. I meant just that if you call requestAnimationFrame multiple times with the same callback, the callback will be queued (and eventually called) multiple times
00:08	tomjack	so if the callback is like "draw everything to a canvas" you want to be sure to only call it once per frame
00:09	tomjack	call requestAnimationFrame once per frame I mean
00:09	dnolen	tomjack: oh ok, yes you are right, that's why they return the requestID - I thought it worked more like Cocoa's setNeedsDisplay
00:09	tomjack	if it's something like "flush a queue of pending dom updates" maybe you don't care
00:19	tomjack	how does virtual dom in cljs even work?
00:19	tomjack	is it that you have a mutable queue of pending updates?
00:20	tomjack	surely you're not gonna just deref and walk an atom every frame and somehow try to match it up with the dom?
00:28	recursor94	Does anybody know what became of clojure.contrib.server-socket? I understand that clojure.contrib is not maintained anymore, but I can not find any information about that specific namespace.
00:28	hiredman	https://github.com/technomancy/server-socket
00:29	bbloom	tomjack: if you're willing to assume that you're the only one changing the DOM (which is true-enough for applications) then you can "diff" two snapshots of the atom
00:30	tomjack	right, I remembered you talking about "owning everything" before
00:30	bbloom	tomjack: since it's a tree structure & clojure data has fast equality, that's a trivially and cheap process for incremental changes … and not significantly more complex for significant changes, like moved sub trees, since you can cache complex immutable values while traversing/modifying/whatever
00:30	tomjack	makes sense
00:31	bbloom	of course browser extensions or even just a dev with the inspector can invalidate those assumptions
00:31	bbloom	but during normal operation, that's not really a problem for most use cases
00:32	recursor94	hiredman: Is there a version in clojars?
00:33	hiredman	I think so, not sure though
00:33	recursor94	Alright, thanks.
00:33	hiredman	https://clojars.org/server-socket
00:33	recursor94	sweet!
00:46	recursor94	:D
00:59	bbloom	dnolen: do you know much about the propegators stuff that was in the sussman "we don't really know how to compute" talk?
01:00	dnolen	bbloom: I've read and implemented bits of the art of propagator
01:00	dnolen	bbloom: a lot of the material he covered is from that.
01:01	bbloom	dnolen: yeah, was planning to read that
01:07	dnolen	bbloom: it's interesting though I found the paper lacking in terms of references
01:07	dnolen	bbloom: the list of interesting propagator work is massive
01:07	dnolen	I'm glad their popularizing it here - but the paper doesn't cite much Prolog CLP, Mozart, Gecode, etc. if I recall
02:08	benkay	on the topic of composing functions to run on a datomic transactor:
02:08	benkay	I have two functions installed on the transactor already, update-balance and update-position, that as one might expect, update a balance and a "position" in place.
02:09	benkay	I want to write a new function that executes both of those functions on the transactor atomically, that is to say either they both fail or they both succeed.
02:10	benkay	now: do I compose a function out of the two functions that I have already? or, from a new function in the datomic scheme, should I call both database functions?
02:10	benkay	i feel like I just answered my own question.
02:35	mthvedt	benkay: rubber ducking
02:36	benkay	all that i succeeded in doing was exposing further depths of ignorance :(
02:36	mthvedt	benkay: if you're not exposing one's own ignorance, you're not living an inquisitive life
02:37	benkay	amen
02:37	benkay	it was an ironic sad face
02:39	ddellacosta	I'm constantly doing this thing where I process one value of one key of each map in a collection of maps, and I always find myself jumping through hoops. There must be a nice shorthand for this common procedure in Clojure…what is it?
02:41	ddellacosta	hmm, maybe there is something in reducers
02:42	benkay	is it the same key every time?
03:53	quizme	is swanodette here ?
03:55	quizme	i was just wondering about the feasibility of writing a clojurescript compiler in node.js
03:55	quizme	sans jvm
03:59	nightfly	quizme: Please do it :)
03:59	nightfly	And go for extra points and make it self-hosting as well
04:01	quizme	nightfly what do u mean by self-hosting ?
04:01	nightfly	Once you've got your javascript clojurescript compiler working you write another clojurescript compiler in clojurescript
04:02	quizme	oh
04:02	quizme	give me a few minutes to let that sink in
04:04	quizme	ok
04:04	quizme	i think i get that
04:04	quizme	that would be awesome.
04:05	quizme	but yeah
04:05	quizme	that's for bonus points
04:05	quizme	cuz really i just wanna use it without the jvm
04:05	quizme	call me an end-user if u have to
04:05	borkdude	hmm, http://www.4clojure.com/ isn't working?
04:06	quizme	nightfly so you agree that it would be awesome to have a clojurescript compiler for node.js sans jvm dependency ?
04:08	nightfly	yes, that would be awesome
04:29	tomjack	quizme: why?
04:35	mondraymond	good morning from Brussels
04:35	mondraymond	I'm just hopping on to get a little advice on filter
04:35	mondraymond	I have a function which returns something like this (() () () ({:id 1}) () ())
04:36	mondraymond	and I just want the map with the id
04:36	mondraymond	try as I might I cannot work out how to filter off the empty seqs
04:36	mondraymond	any suggestions before I fire off the google group?
04:38	dedeibel	(def a '(() () () ({:id 1}) () ()))
04:38	dedeibel	(first (flatten a)
04:38	dedeibel	?
04:39	mondraymond	boom - that works!
04:39	mondraymond	way hey! thanks very much ... completely forgot about flatten
04:41	Raynes	&(filter (comp map? first) '(() () () ({:id 1}) () ()))
04:41	lazybot	⇒ (({:id 1}))
04:41	Raynes	&(first (some (comp map? first) '(() () () ({:id 1}) () ()))
04:41	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading, starting at line 1
04:41	Raynes	&(first (some (comp map? first) '(() () () ({:id 1}) () ())))
04:41	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Boolean
04:41	Raynes	Ah.
04:42	Raynes	&(ffirst (filter (comp map? first) '(() () () ({:id 1}) () ())))
04:42	lazybot	⇒ {:id 1}
04:52	quizme	tomjack: why what ?
05:13	gtrak	good morning 5am #clojure
05:14	hyPiRion	11 am here, but good morning
05:24	bordatoue	hi, I am trying to get log4j working but every time when I execute a method that uses log4j i get the message can not find log4j appender, it seems that project is not picking up the log4j.xml file I have added to resource-paths, is there any other location I need to specify the location of log4j.xml
05:26	rhymor	I'm not a log4j expert but if it cannot find the appender I'd guess it did find the log4j.xml but the class of the configured appender is not on the class path.
05:28	bordatoue	rhymor: i can see log4j.xm in the classpath using lein classpath cmd
05:30	bordatoue	rhymor: I think i need to place log4j.xml in src or resource directory based on \| public TCPExchClient(int HB_sec,int conn_delay_sec,int exchPort,String exchHost){
05:31	rhymor	in log4j.xml there's a line like <appender name="stdout" class="org.apache.log4j.ConsoleAppender"> can you instantiate that class on the repl?
05:31	gtrak	rhymor: yep
05:32	gtrak	lemme find an example
05:32	bordatoue	rhymor: yes I can
05:32	gtrak	rhymor: https://gist.github.com/gtrak/5676736
05:32	bordatoue	let me change the location of log4j.xml file
05:36	mondraymond	Hey Raynes - yes that works thanks. It seems to me though that flatten seems so much simpler ... does it miss something that your filter catches?
05:36	gtrak	~flatten
05:36	clojurebot	flatten is rarely the right answer. Suppose you need to use a list as your "base type", for example. Usually you only want to flatten a single level, and in that case you're better off with concat. Or, better still, use mapcat to produce a sequence that's shaped right to begin with.
05:38	bordatoue	rhymor: got i working it; log4j file should be in the projects src directory , thanks
05:38	gtrak	bordatoue: test-resources is probably a better place
05:39	mondraymond	ok - yes indeed mapcat works for what I need
05:39	bordatoue	gtrak: is test-reources created by default using lein app
05:40	rhymor	If there is one thing I would like more developers to know it's that "semantics matters". People are often looking for a technical solution where they should be looking for a semantical solution.
05:40	rhymor	aka. don't think what the program does, think what it means.
05:40	gtrak	bordatoue: if it is, it won't be saved in your git repo if it's empty
05:41	gtrak	rhymor: tell those devs to use lisp :-), it makes it easier to give things names
05:43	rhymor	gtrak, I'm stuck in a project where we actually have a touring complete configuration language in XML. :(
05:44	gtrak	xml? you're one step away!
05:44	gtrak	<tag1><tag2>WAT</tag2></tag1> -> (tag1 (tag2 "WAT"))
05:44	hyPiRion	oh dear
05:45	gtrak	I guess attributes and thing are a bit tougher
05:45	rhymor	yes, it's basically lisp with an ugly syntax.
05:45	hyPiRion	https://github.com/technomancy/lein-xml
05:45	rhymor	:D
05:46	gtrak	become more productive with this language by writing a code-generator, when people notice you running circles around them, maybe they'll do something about it...
05:49	rhymor	gtrak, that could actually work. I'll try it.
05:50	gtrak	lol, awesome
05:55	ddellacosta	How to find a hash-map with a particular key in a vector of hash-maps, and then return the value associated with that key? This seems too verbose and inelegant: (:summary-text (first (filter :summary-text (second search-results)))))
05:56	gtrak	some does it for you
05:56	gtrak	(some :summary-text (second search-results))
05:56	bordatoue	is there any easy way to determine which version of java is used by lein
05:56	hyPiRion	bordatoue: lein version should print it out
05:57	gtrak	some is an underappreciated core funciton
05:57	gtrak	function*
05:57	gtrak	~some
05:57	clojurebot	I don't understand.
05:57	augustl	some ftw :)
05:57	gtrak	see?
05:57	bordatoue	thanks hyPiRion , is there any way to specify a perticular version of java
05:57	ddellacosta	gtrak: thanks! This is not the first time I've forgotten some...
05:58	augustl	it has some nice use cases, and I use it some times, unless it's bothersome for some reason
05:58	ddellacosta	the problem is I'm always thinking about things the wrong way, so some seems orthogonal to the solution
05:58	ddellacosta	here I was thinking too hard about processing a vector
05:59	hyPiRion	bordatoue: yeah. Do you want to change it system-wide or just for leiningen only?
05:59	gtrak	I generally enjoy overloading the notion of a pred with actually doing something useful, compojure works this way
05:59	ddellacosta	that's perfect, I just chopped that down to a much shorter version. Very happy.
06:00	ddellacosta	gtrak: yeah, it seems to be a common meta-idiom, if I can say that, in Clojure
06:00	bordatoue	hyPiRion: just for a specific project
06:00	ddellacosta	and as I get better with the language I've started to be able to "smell" when that kind of solution exists…but I'm not familiar enough with it yet to know the right solution all the time. So thanks. ;-)
06:00	gtrak	yea, I'm always on the lookout for neat combinations of functions
06:01	gtrak	like (juxt filter complement)
06:01	hyPiRion	gtrak: (juxt filter remove) I suppose?
06:01	gtrak	yea, that's what I meant
06:02	gtrak	there must be sort of a implicit second-order standard lib of things like that
06:02	ddellacosta	yeah, juxt is another one that seems like it has some really awesome applications, but which I haven't been able to naturally integrate into my coding yet
06:03	hyPiRion	bordatoue: Humm. You can set the LEIN_JAVA_CMD environment variable to specify what java version leiningen should run, or JAVA_CMD if you want the app and tests to run on the same java version. Don't think you can do it per project yet, unfortunately
06:04	hyPiRion	but if you're on Mac/Linux, `JAVA_CMD='path/to/the/java' lein run` should do the trick
06:04	bordatoue	hyPiRion, thanks very much
06:05	hyPiRion	no problemo
06:52	@rhickey	how do I keep lein repl from spewing #_=> at me when I do C-M-x in inferior lisp mode?
07:02	llasram	I don't think that's a very well-tested combination... The `lein repl` nrepl server + nrepl.el works perfectly fine though
07:03	@rhickey	llasram: thanks, not interested in adding more stuff until first stuff is working
07:13	llasram	Is there a reason for wanting in particular to run the `lein repl` task as the backing process vs just launching the clojure.main repl via Leiningen?
07:44	@rhickey	llasram: you mean java -server -cp `lein classpath` clojure.main, or something else?
07:46	Bronsa	rhickey maybe lein run -m clojure.main ?
07:48	@rhickey	Bronsa: that's better, thanks
07:57	Jetien	how do you retrieve values of a map from a list of keys idiomatically? ie a function f that evaluates like this: (f {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} [:a :a :b :x]) -> (1 1 2)
07:58	rhymor	you can use the hashmap as function in map
07:59	Jetien	but if f=map then the example above evaluates to (1 1 2 nil)
08:00	rhymor	so you map, then filter or the other way round
08:02	Jetien	yep. i was just wondering if there's a simpler way.. thx!
08:02	rhymor	Jetien, what is the purpose of that function? I.e. why do you have a vector of keys, some of which might not be in the hash map?
08:02	Anderkent	,(keep {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} [:a :a :b :x])
08:02	clojurebot	(1 1 2)
08:02	Anderkent	Jetien: ^
08:02	Jetien	thanks
08:02	Jetien	rhymor, i think these situations are not that seldom
08:03	rhymor	Oh, I learned something new :) good day today.
08:10	hyPiRion	Hmmmm
08:11	hyPiRion	Keep in mind that nil values will not be returned
08:11	hyPiRion	,(keep {:a nil :b 3} [:a :b :c :a :b])
08:11	clojurebot	(3 3)
08:12	hyPiRion	,(map val (keep (partial find {:a nil :b 3}) [:a :b :c :a :b])) ; solves it
08:12	clojurebot	(nil 3 nil 3)
08:15	Morgawr	can somebody explain in a very layman way what does "binding" do? in the doc it says it's like a let but executes a body and then re-establishes the previous binding? I don't fully understand it
08:16	manutter	slightly OT, but I notice luminus offers dailycred as a pre-configured 3rd party auth/auth service -- does anyone know of any similar services besides like Google/Facebook/etc?
08:17	manutter	I set up a luminus app with dailycred, and it works, but their error reporting leaves a little to be desired.
08:17	hyPiRion	Morgawr: it's like setting the variable, but only for the calls within the binding. It's reset afterwards.
08:18	Morgawr	so it's like a scope binding?
08:18	hyPiRion	dynamic scope binding, yes. Consider this:
08:18	hyPiRion	console.log("new animation");
08:18	hyPiRion	whoops
08:18	hyPiRion	,print-length
08:18	clojurebot	5
08:19	hyPiRion	,(let [f (fn [] (println print-length))] (f) (binding [print-length 9000] (f)) (f))
08:19	clojurebot	5\n9000\n5\n
08:19	Morgawr	ah, I see
08:19	Foxboron	Morgawr: example. the varibale out tells clojure what stdout is. Say you bind it too a network socket. (binding [out (:in socket)] (println "hai"))
08:19	Morgawr	that's great, thanks for the explanation
08:20	Foxboron	s/:in/:out
08:20	Morgawr	^ cool, thanks for a real world application too
08:20	hyPiRion	yeah, a common pattern is for example this
08:20	Foxboron	Morgawr: you could bind it to a file writer also.
08:21	hyPiRion	,(let [s (new java.io.StringWriter)] (binding [out s] (println "hello world") (println "nice weather") (str s)))
08:21	clojurebot	"hello world\nnice weather\n"
08:21	hyPiRion	^ that is exactly how with-out-str works
08:22	Morgawr	neat
08:22	Foxboron	Morgawr: i think that is one of the neatest things i have seen in Clojure so far ^^
08:22	Morgawr	how does it work with closures though?
08:23	Morgawr	if I return a function that uses the bound argument and then call it outside the binding
08:23	Morgawr	I guess it keeps the temp binding, yes?
08:24	hyPiRion	no
08:24	hyPiRion	that's why it works in the first place
08:24	hyPiRion	(let [f (binding [print-length 100] (fn [] print-length))] (f))
08:24	hyPiRion	,(let [f (binding [print-length 100] (fn [] print-length))] (f))
08:24	clojurebot	5
08:25	Morgawr	ah
08:25	Morgawr	that's weird, good to know
08:25	Morgawr	and yeah, I guess that is why it works in the first place haha
08:25	Morgawr	I didn't give it much thought after all
08:26	hyPiRion	Consider a (def ^:dynamic foo ...) definition as a global (binding [foo ...] the-whole-app-here)
08:26	hyPiRion	You can set up the binding within a function, of course
08:27	hyPiRion	,(let [f (fn [] (binding [print-length 100] print-length))] (f))
08:27	clojurebot	100
08:27	Morgawr	yeah, that's a solution
08:27	Morgawr	thanks for the help
08:27	hyPiRion	np
08:34	kitti	join
08:35	kitti	:Q
08:35	kitti	q
08:35	kitti	quit
08:35	kitti	exit
08:37	hyPiRion	heh, prepend with /
08:58	edbond	can someone provide example usage of seque?
08:59	hyPiRion	edbond: if you start up a repl with `lein repl` and do `(cdoc seque)`, then there is an example there
09:00	edbond	hyPiRion, thanks, didn't know about cdoc
09:01	hyPiRion	it's a nice tool for examples, although its quality on functions vary
09:59	Pupnik	is the rhickey in here actually rich hickey?
10:01	hyPiRion	yeah
10:02	Pupnik	funny to see him asking questions
10:02	Pupnik	although I suppose he isn't an expert on all the various things that have grown around clojure
10:03	atyz	hi guys, I've been stuck on a small korma issue for a while. It keeps throwing a <NullPointerException java.lang.NullPointerException>. I've spent a lot of time trying to track down the source of the problem but I am ultimately unable to. I would be very grateful if someone would point me in the right direction. It's driving me crazy. http://pastebin.com/isTht8h9
10:04	hyPiRion	It's not weird. He's not working on the tooling and plumbing around Clojure, but rather on the language.
10:04	supersym	Pupnik: every API/implementation takes time to read-up, get in the intention/head of the maker
10:05	supersym	you may get a bit quicker/develop an eye... but that part always stays :)
10:07	supersym	I spoke to our king on two occasions...same feeling
10:07	supersym	we seem to attribute super-natural powers/knowledge to our idols
10:09	Pupnik	true, true
10:10	Pupnik	he does give great talks though
10:27	manutter	atyz: I think the problem is the [:as req] in your route, try just req instead.
10:28	manutter	(not that I'm at all knowledgeable about compojure routes, but try anyway)
10:29	supersym	Pupnik: indeed, I watched a video on infoq the day before yesterday, enlighting n refreshing: like the language imho
10:30	justin_smith	compojure routes use regular destructuring - if the destructuring doesn't work in a function parameter list it won't work in a compojure route
10:37	atyz	manutter: i have, unfortunately it makes no difference
10:38	manutter	If you change your "/" route so it just returns a hello-world string, does that work? I'm guessing it won't, and your problem is in your compojure route params.
10:39	Morgawr	what's the best way to create a vector out of all the elements that match the same key from multiple hashmaps?
10:39	justin_smith	Morgawr: (mapv :key hashmaps)
10:39	Morgawr	great, thanks
10:42	atyz	manutter: it does, it breaks when its' trying to do the insert
10:43	justin_smith	Morgawr: that is if you explicitly want a vector, otherwise map is good because it is lazy
10:44	Morgawr	justin_smith: oh yeah, right, thanks
10:44	justin_smith	well, sometimes map is bad because it is lazy, but yeah, anyway that is the big difference in behavior I have seen
10:46	justin_smith	now I am realizing I should start using mapv in many places where I am using (doall (map ...))
10:47	hyPiRion	justin_smith: do you need the result?
10:47	hyPiRion	if not, doseq is probably a better choice
10:47	hyPiRion	(for the hashmap case, it obviously is, but in general)
10:48	justin_smith	hyPiRion: I am using doall because I need the result, and it needs to be calculated inside the context of a db connection that should be short lived
10:48	hyPiRion	ah
10:48	justin_smith	so laziness either makes the db connection stay open (bad) or makes things get calculated where the db connection is not bound (breaks things)
10:49	manutter	atyz: ok, I'm barking up the wrong tree then, sorry.
10:49	atyz	manutter: no worries, thanks very much for helping
10:49	justin_smith	but you know, mapping across a bunch of results from a db, how often would you need to do that, right :P
11:34	abp	leathekd: Thanks!
11:37	leathekd	abp: No problem! Let me know if you have any troubles.
11:50	abp	leathekd: Works like a charm. Just tested my middleware.
11:54	leathekd	Nice. Glad to hear it.
11:58	yacin	if i have a string that represents a byte array ("[B@3ecc05a6") how can i convert it back to the byte array?
12:02	mpenet	yacin: unless its base64, hex or some other string representation you cant. What you show doesn't look like any of these, it's just the .toString of a byte array right?
12:07	yacin	yeah, i believe so
12:10	justin_smith	yeah, you may want to actually convert the byte array to a form that actually preserves the information as a string (like mpenet mentions base64 or a string encoding of the hex values or something)
12:10	mpenet	if you have a byte array and you want to turn it into a String you can just pass it as arg to String constructor
12:10	mpenet	,(String. (.getBytes "foo"))
12:10	clojurebot	"foo"
12:10	mpenet	but that's very naive, not sure in what context you are
12:11	mpenet	,(.getBytes "foo")
12:11	clojurebot	#<byte[] [B@10fa2ec>
12:16	S11001001	mpenet: uses current locale's character encoding, not great for running on more than one machine
12:16	mpenet	yeah I know
12:16	mpenet	you can pass the locale as 2nd param
12:16	mpenet	I think
12:16	S11001001	yacin might not
12:17	S11001001	you can pass the character encoding as 2nd param
12:17	Anderkent	mpenet: yes, you can pass an encoding to .getBytes or String.
12:18	yacin	thanks y'all. this is some weird environment specific issue
12:20	Anderkent	yacin: but still, you probably want to use something like commons.codec Hex if it's arbitrary bytes
12:20	Anderkent	since not every byte array is a valid string
12:20	mpenet	yacin: where do you get this byte-array from ?
12:22	Anderkent	and unfortunately String. does not tell you the decoding failed
12:22	Anderkent	,(String. (byte-array (vector (unchecked-byte 200) (unchecked-byte 201))) "ASCII")
12:22	clojurebot	"??"
12:23	llasram	Was the 4 bytes of an IPv4 address, generated by some internal code, and inadvertently .toString'd. Nothing more to see here, please move along :-)
12:24	mpenet	~guards
12:24	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
12:24	Anderkent	llasram: no worries. String/byte handling in general is something people often do wrong, so talking about it may help someone :)
12:25	Anderkent	the take away is always be explicit about your encoding, and always use utf-8 :)
12:25	mpenet	yeah I was wondering about the context, most of the time libs that force you to do that stuff come with some helpers
12:27	yacin	haha thanks llasram
12:51	Morgawr	do I need to have a local maven repository of I want to use a personal .jar file in my lein project?
12:51	Morgawr	because I'm developing both my application and a standalone library (on which my app relies) at the same time
12:52	technomancy	Morgawr: you have a local maven repository
12:52	technomancy	in ~/.m2/repository
12:52	Morgawr	oh
12:52	Morgawr	neat
12:52	Morgawr	so I just put my .jar in there or..?
12:53	technomancy	just `lein install`
12:53	technomancy	will put it there
12:53	Morgawr	ah cool, so from my .jar project I do "lein install" and then from my app I just include it in the dependencies?
12:54	technomancy	you should probably read `lein tutorial`
12:54	technomancy	but yeah
12:55	Morgawr	alright, thanks, sorry for asking a naive question
12:55	Morgawr	I appreciate the help
12:55	technomancy	no worries
12:56	technomancy	actually I'm not sure the tutorial covers this; hm
12:58	gtrak	Morgawr: I think there's a maven shortcut for installing a jar http://maven.apache.org/guides/mini/guide-3rd-party-jars-local.html
13:01	Anderkent	Morgawr: alternatively, if your library is also a lein project, you can make it a checkout, so that you can develop both at the same time
13:02	Anderkent	kinda like maven subprojects, except without the more insane bits
13:03	gtrak	hey, I like the reactor!
13:04	Anderkent	gtrak: 'we'll dynamically add these artifacts to your build for some tasks, but not others'. :)
13:05	gtrak	ah, I haven't hit that one
13:05	Anderkent	I was recently trying to get a reactor project to fetch all external dependencies (so that I could cache them between builds). Can't be done, had to revert to mvn install
13:06	gtrak	oh, really? I was pretty sure I've done that before
13:07	Anderkent	the reactor is much like maven in general - it works at the beginning, but then as you're trying to do something more complicated you hit a wall with no way around it
13:07	gtrak	unless you mean something different by a reactor project
13:07	Anderkent	gtrak: well, it works if you already have the subprojects installed, so the build does not fail due to missing dependencies
13:08	gtrak	might have been a bug in a specific version, I'm like 100% sure that works
13:08	Anderkent	say you have Parent -> {A, B, C}, B depends on A, C depends on B. Trying to do `mvn dependency:go-offline` under Parent will fail because B cannot resolve A anywhere
13:09	gtrak	what's the { } signify modules?
13:09	Anderkent	yeah, 3 modules under Parent
13:10	gtrak	hmm, I'll try it right now
13:13	gtrak	ah, wait, is this specific to dependency:go-offline? that would make sense in the context of your initial comment
13:13	Anderkent	yeah
13:13	gtrak	install or compile's always worked for me, I've never tried that other task
13:13	Anderkent	yeah, install and compile will work
13:14	Anderkent	which is good enough most of the time
13:14	Anderkent	so I'm not saying reactor is completely broken - just broken enough to be really annoying :)
13:14	gtrak	gotcha, I can believe that :-)
13:17	nfisher	Hi all, rather new to clojure. I have a large log file I want to process. Are agents what I should be looking at to process the file as I'm reading?
13:20	technomancy	nfisher: pmap is probably fine for that
13:21	gtrak	Anderkent: yea, it's broken as you described. fun.
13:21	nfisher	technomancy; thanks!
13:21	technomancy	nfisher: I wrote a version using agents here, but someone pointed out pmap does a lot better: http://technomancy.us/130
13:22	technomancy	if you want absolutely bonkers performance you can push the JVM to much better I/O perf like _ato does here: http://meshy.org/2009/12/13/widefinder-2-with-clojure.html
13:22	dobry-den	Newbie question: I've been struggling with coming up with a simple way to transform [:ul "A" "B" "C"] into [:ul [:li "A"] [:li "B"] [:li "C"]].
13:23	nfisher	I suspect the DB insertions will be the bottleneck... I'll profile it to see.
13:23	dobry-den	I can trivially map [:li %] across the ul children, but I can't figure out how to unroll the result back into [:ul ...]
13:23	gtrak	dobry-den: into [:ul]
13:24	gtrak	which is equivalent to reduce conj
13:25	Anderkent	,(let [[head & rest] [:ul "A" "B" "C"]] (into [head] (map #(vector :li %) rest)))
13:25	clojurebot	[:ul [:li "A"] [:li "B"] [:li "C"]]
13:26	gtrak	if it doesn't need to be a vector, can simply cons head onto the result of map
13:26	dobry-den	Thanks guys. I feel sheepish having to come here for that
13:27	Anderkent	np that's what we're here for (pretending to be productive while avoiding actual work)
13:27	nathanielk	korma seems to infuriate more than help. has that been the experience of others? do i just need to stick it out?
13:28	gtrak	nathanielk: meh, keep things simple?
13:28	Anderkent	nathanielk: I've found it pretty nice for simple stuff (querying/inserting into a single db)
13:28	Anderkent	still fall back to execute-raw from time to time though
13:28	gtrak	I thought this was interesting: https://github.com/cgrand/sqrel along with just the clojure.java.jdbc
13:29	nathanielk	well, for example: i can't figure out how to convince it to insert default values into a column
13:29	Anderkent	nathanielk: surely that's the db engine's job
13:29	nathanielk	hrm, perhaps, but i have a hard time believing that such a simple and obvious use case is broken at a lower level than korma
13:29	jjttjj	how do people test validation in lib-noir? I remember noir had noir.util.test/with-noir but there doesn't seem to be anything like that in lib-noir
13:30	Anderkent	nathanielk: what's the query look like if you tell korma to print the sql
13:30	Anderkent	(i.e. as-sql or dry-run)
13:30	nathanielk	Anderkent: good question, I should be examining that.
13:30	nathanielk	I'll go stare at it
13:31	nathanielk	it's generating hardcoded values for the id column
13:31	nathanielk	ie not telling the database "use a default"
13:31	Anderkent	hm, can you post your code?
13:33	nathanielk	it's really simple: (insert jump-table (values rows))
13:33	nathanielk	where rows is [{:foo_id 1, :bar_id 2},...]
13:34	nathanielk	the generated query attempts to put in the foo_id and bar_id correctly but generates a 1-indexed id for the jump table's row
13:34	nathanielk	i mean, it can't get much simpler, which is why i'm assuming that i'm doing something wrong
13:34	nathanielk	i just can't find any documentation to help me
13:36	dobry-den	are columns foo_id and bar_id not integer datatypes?
13:38	nathanielk	dobry-den: they are.
13:38	Anderkent	nathanielk: it's hard to say without seeing your code. It shouldn't be doing this, quick browsing through korma source doesn't find where that happens
13:40	nathanielk	Anderkent: well, thanks for thinking about it :) i'll start reading korma's source
13:42	Anderkent	are you completely sure your rows does not contain {:id} fields?
13:42	Anderkent	the simplest test case seems to work for me: https://www.refheap.com/15155
13:43	nathanielk	yeah, they don't
13:43	nathanielk	so I just ran the raw insert in psql without specifying an id and it did the bad thing.
13:43	nathanielk	korma is vindicated.
13:44	nathanielk	so i'll stare at my schema now :)
13:52	dobry-den	when does it make sense to embed functions with let/letfn vs specify them as private functions?
13:53	dobry-den	i like the idea of letfn, but i don't like losing the ability to sanity check it in the repl
13:53	ToBeReplaced	dobry-den: when they only make sense within the scope of the function
13:53	technomancy	dobry-den: if you have any hesitation, make it a top-level
13:54	ToBeReplaced	no one will ever complain about moving a letfn to a defn- though
13:54	ToBeReplaced	technomancy: what's the indentation problem? seems to work fine in emacs?
13:56	technomancy	sorry, not indentation, but rather breaking readability rules of clojure
13:56	hiredman	"rules"
13:56	technomancy	for nearly every other non-toplevel forms, any open paren followed by an identifier indicates a call
13:57	technomancy	this is part of why clojure is more readable than other lisps that use parens for everything with no brackets
13:57	ToBeReplaced	good point; that's something that irks me about "case"
13:59	technomancy	I don't like case either, but I don't think it has this problem
14:00	ToBeReplaced	grouping multiple constants happens in a list literal, which is not a function call
14:00	technomancy	oh, interesting
14:00	technomancy	I've never seen it used that way
14:00	technomancy	but it sounds annoying
14:02	justin_smith	yeah, I definitely read it wrong the first time I saw it
14:02	justin_smith	especially when a vector literal would do the same thing in terms of show intent
14:02	justin_smith	unless you wanted the case to match a vector?
14:07	tomjack	&(case (list 1 2) [1 2] 3)
14:07	lazybot	⇒ 3
14:07	dobry-den	The simplest way I can think of to turn "* abc" into "abc" is (join (drop 2 "* abc"))
14:07	gtrak	dobry-den: I think letfn makes mutual recursion more trivial, also, you don't have to indirect through a var, so it's a teensy bit faster
14:08	dobry-den	I didn't mean to hit enter
14:08	gtrak	that said, my coworkers look at me like I'm crazy when I use it for not-small things
14:08	hyPiRion	,(subs "* abc" 2)
14:08	clojurebot	"abc"
14:08	hyPiRion	dobry-den: ^
14:08	jtoy_	clojure is da bomb!
14:09	dobry-den	hyPiRion: Thanks. Is there a way to browser Clojure functions by category like this: http://ruby-doc.org/core-2.0/Enumerable.html
14:10	hyPiRion	the cheatsheet is probably the closest one: http://clojure.org/cheatsheet
14:11	dobry-den	Cool. I found my next sideproject then
14:13	amalloy	technomancy: don't forget all the open parens in deftype, reify, defprotocol, and that family. and in catch/finally. and in specifying multiple arities for a defn. and in ns specifiers.
14:14	gtrak	clojure.test (is (thrown?
14:15	technomancy	amalloy: I did scope it to non-toplevel things
14:15	technomancy	I think of catch and finally as macro calls FWIW
14:15	technomancy	even though there's technically no var behind them
14:15	gtrak	thrown? isn't a real thing.. is a multimethod dispatch on a symbol
14:15	technomancy	gtrak: thrown? is horrible
14:16	technomancy	it should be a macro, but it's not
14:16	amalloy	technomancy: reify is as non-top-level as letfn
14:16	technomancy	amalloy: yeah, reify is the one exception
14:16	aaelony	Does anyone know of a clj or cljs library that faciliates a pivot table interface? e.g. something like http://gumption.org/2004/pivot_table/test_page.html or http://www.iccube.com/products/contributions/gwt-pivot-table for the result of any database query?
14:16	technomancy	well, probably proxy too
14:16	clojurebot	proxy is not reify
14:16	amalloy	proxy is awful for other reasons
14:16	technomancy	yeah
14:16	amalloy	i won't use it as supporting evidence for my case
14:18	amalloy	and of course function arities are also not top-level things
14:19	technomancy	amalloy: function arities don't have an open paren followed immediately by an identifier though
14:19	amalloy	oh, i missed the "followed by"
14:20	Foxboron	So, anyone know of any libs that could maybe use a hand? Planning on working on open-source projects this summer. (pretty much a newbie in Clojure)
14:23	gtrak	what are you interested in?
14:24	Foxboron	well, everything really.
14:24	Foxboron	Just wanna try enhance my knowledge in Clojure.
14:24	technomancy	Foxboron: clojars could use some help
14:24	technomancy	also clojuredocs.org
14:25	Foxboron	hm, i'll try take a look. Thanks!
14:26	technomancy	Foxboron: I don't have a readily-accessible list of TODOs for clojars, but I can definitely try to put something together if you want to help out
14:26	Foxboron	technomancy: looking at clojars i think i will have a tought time trying to set myself into the code.
14:27	Foxboron	But a todo would be awsome.
14:27	technomancy	apart from the maven interop it's a pretty standard compojure app, if a bit dated
14:37	rbxbx	Foxboron: I know devn is looking for help on https://github.com/devn/getclojure \|\| getclojure.org
14:38	trptcolin	Foxboron: a text-mode api for clojuredocs would be awesome
14:39	trptcolin	because i'd love to have that feature back to being included by default (w/ no extra dependencies) in REPLy / lein repl
14:40	Foxboron	hm, i don't got that much experience with clojure, but all of it are interesting projects
14:40	Foxboron	Ill do my best and see if i can contribute
14:45	konr	In http-kit, what's the correct way to handle redirects? It's not parsing the body of a 301 response, right?
14:54	konr	nevermind, it's an issue with probably a patch :) https://github.com/http-kit/http-kit/issues/35
15:17	llasram	Blargh, why do github "deploy keys" provide full read/write access to the repository?
15:29	arrdem	is there a way to "live inject" dependencies to nrepl, or do I have to restart when I add new deps?
15:33	abp	arrdem: https://github.com/pallet/alembic
15:40	tomjack	what about making @ and #' and maybe ` put metadata on the forms read to record their having been used?
15:41	tomjack	I suppose also '
15:41	tomjack	but '1 and `2 are problematic..
15:41	amalloy	tomjack: not really, because '1 reads as (quote 1)
15:42	amalloy	a form onto which you can put metadata if you like
15:42	tomjack	oh right
15:44	tomjack	hmm looking at "not so homoiconic" again it looks like there are enough other problems that the metadata would only be useful for evil macro authors
15:45	tomjack	i.e. we need sjacket anyway so no point..
15:49	cch1	Which protocol(s) must one support in order to allow destructuring as a map?
15:50	arrdem	abp: awesome, thanks!
15:51	amalloy	cch1: ILookup is all, i think
15:51	cch1	amalloy: thanks. Any idea of where I might find an example?
15:53	amalloy	$google clojure ilookup
15:53	lazybot	[Overloading keywords in Clojure - Stack Overflow] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5583841/overloading-keywords-in-clojure
16:13	cch1	amalloy: thanks.
16:21	tomjack	I wonder why reduce-kv isn't the primitive
16:22	tomjack	backwards-compatible reduction over map seqs would incur an extra map-entry allocation I guess
16:22	tomjack	and you have an extra function maybe to drop the k for reduce
16:22	tomjack	but are there important things which can be IReduce but not IKVReduce?
16:23	tomjack	I'm just imagining stick a counter in all those places I guess..
16:59	Kowboy	<- just found out the hard way that 'empt' and 'empty?' functions both exist and do vastly different things. DOH!
16:59	Kowboy	*empty
17:00	Kowboy	in particular (when (empty {somthing here}) ...do something...) always does something
17:01	bbloom	Kowboy: heh, yup. whoops!
17:03	AWizzArd	Does Clojure support float literals? 13.0f vs (float 13.0)
17:05	Kowboy	I don't think it does. You get doubles by default
17:05	AWizzArd	yes
17:06	Kowboy	java.lang.NumberFormatException: Invalid number: 13.0f
17:06	AWizzArd	Yes, the “f” does not work. Was just an example, maybe there is some other syntax to denote floats.
17:07	dnolen	AWizzArd: not that I'm aware of.
17:07	Kowboy	are you integrating with a Java API that uses floats everywhere?
17:07	gzmask	clojurers, i got a list of mix symbols (:t1 :note1 :t2 :note2 ...) representing a song. (pairs of time and note to be play. I can only think of (doseq). what is the best fit for this kinda sets?
17:07	ohpauleez	Yeah, you can do hex and big int, thats all
17:08	ohpauleez	rather, that's all I can think of
17:09	Kowboy	question about ^:dynamic vars vs using delay
17:09	ohpauleez	and by 8
17:09	ohpauleez	,010
17:09	clojurebot	8
17:09	ohpauleez	,0xa
17:09	clojurebot	10
17:10	ohpauleez	,1M
17:10	clojurebot	1M
17:10	llasram	,2r0101010
17:10	clojurebot	42
17:10	ohpauleez	radix
17:10	Kowboy	I've been using delay refs so I can prevent them from loading until needed
17:10	patchwork	,3r012012
17:10	clojurebot	140
17:10	Kowboy	but I'd likt to change the value of the delay ref, for example in a test
17:10	Kowboy	is this possible?
17:12	ohpauleez	Why not just pass things in?
17:12	ohpauleez	to the function
17:12	ohpauleez	or pass along a context map?
17:12	llasram	Kowboy: For testing, you can mock with `with-redefs`
17:13	Kowboy	excellent, that is what I need
17:13	ohpauleez	yeah, with-redefs is the best bet if you truly want the behavior you're looking for
17:13	llasram	If you want changes for other than testing, then ohpauleez is probably right
17:13	Kowboy	I was using dynamic vars, but the initial root bindings would blow up in my unit tests
17:14	Kowboy	they were generally dependent on a config file
17:14	Kowboy	but in my tests, I wanted to pass in my own configuration
17:14	melipone	hello! I am trying to use pmap (instead of map) but it seems to be slower than map. Is that possible?
17:14	Kowboy	problem was, requiring the namespaces forced the root bindings to execute
17:14	GeorgeH	I'm considering learning closure to implement a format converter, am I crazy or wasting my time? The program will read a json file with design data, then render it to CNC toolpaths. This will be my first dive into functional languages, so I'd appreciate any warnings! Thanks :)
17:14	ohpauleez	melipone: Definitely
17:15	melipone	ohpauleez: why?
17:15	Kowboy	so I changed them to (def something (delay .....)))
17:15	ohpauleez	GeorgeH: Go for it! That sounds a great project for Clojure
17:15	ohpauleez	Kowboy: I'd consider the refactor, given that scenario
17:16	ohpauleez	melipone: How many item are in the sequence/collection you're mapping on?
17:16	Kowboy	I was trying to refactor to something that works both in my production scenario, and for testing/playing at the repl
17:16	GeorgeH	Awesome! Very reassuring, cheers
17:16	melipone	3500 items
17:17	ohpauleez	Kowboy: I think passing in a context (a map of defs you currently have) might be the way to go
17:17	ohpauleez	melipone: What's the function doing?
17:17	Kowboy	that would be a significant refactor
17:17	tomjack	bbloom: so I forget your recommendation about promises wrt core.async - if I resurrect a promise-like type, should it implement ReadPort/WritePort with different semantics than channels? right now I have Await and Deliver whose interfaces are exactly like ReadPort and WritePort
17:18	tomjack	hard to tell what the acceptable scope of meanings for <! and >! are
17:18	AWizzArd	Kowboy: it’s for CUDA code that works with floats. Would just be handy to add something like an “f” to the end of a number to let Clojure know it’s a Float.
17:19	Kowboy	perhaps what I need to do is have my ^:dynamic vars default to nil, then bind them in my "main" method
17:19	melipone	well, it's 3500 functions executed several times. The functions are very simple like check for equality of strings.
17:19	AWizzArd	In principle there could be literals for chars, shorts, floats and ints ==> 1c 2s 3f 4i
17:19	Kowboy	and then use a test fixture to also bind them for testing
17:20	bbloom	tomjack: a promise is like a (delay (repeatedly value)) channel
17:20	melipone	ohpauleez: why would pmap be slower than map?
17:20	tomjack	oh, right, I didn't consider that such things could be called 'channels'
17:20	tomjack	but the put! semantics are different I think?
17:21	Kowboy	simple functions run through pmap will be slower because of the overhead of threading
17:21	bbloom	tomjack: i'm not sure what the resource management implications are, but you can implement this w/o any custom types
17:21	Kowboy	only when the functions take significant time will you get a performance benefit
17:22	tomjack	core.async seems to use channels which emit the value and then close
17:22	bbloom	tomjack: give me a moment, let me experiment on this
17:22	tomjack	oh, I see, you mean make a process which takes from some channel and then goes into an endless put loop?
17:23	bbloom	tomjack: yeah, exactly
17:23	bbloom	i dunno if it's actually useful, but that's essentially what a promise is in terms of channels
17:23	bbloom	using (chan 1) so it blocks
17:24	bbloom	the problem then is you need to somehow garbage collect that put loop…. dunno how that works
17:24	tomjack	I have another problem with that: if you accidentally use a normal channel where you thought you had a promise, all the nice guarantees of promises disappear, but the code will still run
17:25	ohpauleez	melipone: You might want to chunk your collection into number-of-cores+2 chunks
17:25	ohpauleez	this will mean that each chunk is in its own thread when you run pmap
17:26	tomjack	just convinced myself to keep a separate interface for reads but the same one for writes, then my promise type can implement ReadPort as well by acting like a (repeat value) chan
17:27	melipone	ohpauleez: oh, I see, thanks for the hint. I'll try that. My code really needs to speed up.
17:27	tomjack	although :/
17:27	ohpauleez	Kowboy also filled in the reason - the overhead of allocating a new future, running it, and deref'ing it is outweighing the execution time of your function
17:27	ohpauleez	melipone: You might also just try reducers, and see if being eager in the map helps (with fewer allocations)
17:28	ohpauleez	again, depends on that function you're mapping
17:28	tomjack	bugs with (repeat value) chans are pretty dangerous (certainly to my emacs' health at least, and probably someday to a browser's..)
17:28	ohpauleez	AWizzArd: You could use reader literals
17:31	gzmask
17:31	gzmask	why (= [[1 1] [2 2] [3 3]] (map list [1 2 3] [1 2 3]))
17:31	melipone	ohpauleez: i heard about reducers
17:31	melipone	ohpauleez: what does "being eager in the map" mean?
17:31	tomjack	&(= [1 1] (list 1 1))
17:32	gzmask	but (map list [1 2 3] [1 2 3]) eval to ((1 1) (2 2) (3 3))
17:32	tomjack	sequential collections form an equality partition
17:33	bbloom	tomjack: refheap seems slow right now. anyway, here's an experiment: https://gist.github.com/brandonbloom/5681362
17:33	ehaliewicz	looks like it's down actually
17:33	gzmask	tomjack: ah, i see
17:33	ohpauleez	melipone: Maps are lazy by default, they return a LazySeq
17:34	technomancy	o_O
17:34	ohpauleez	map
17:34	ohpauleez	the fn
17:34	ohpauleez	haha
17:34	ohpauleez	not Maps, the HashMap
17:35	melipone	ohpauleez: okay, thanks
17:35	technomancy	oh english... you definitely need a bugfix release
17:35	pjstadig	or perhaps the nomenclature of functional programming language
17:35	tomjack	I guess the resource problem is that the blocked put! action in the state machine will hold onto the promise channel?
17:35	technomancy	pjstadig: but I want a plural you and exclusive we too
17:36	pjstadig	technomancy: can't help you there
17:36	technomancy	at least you didn't say "yall"
17:36	pjstadig	hey now!
17:36	pjstadig	i reserve the right to say y'all
17:36	ztellman	bbloom: wouldn't a better approach be to just create a custom channel that only allows a single put!, and an arbitrary number of take! calls?
17:37	technomancy	pjstadig: what you do in the privacy of your home is your own business
17:37	pjstadig	technomancy: besides everyone knows that the plural of "y'all" is "all y'all"
17:37	tomjack	I'm worried that doing that will confuse CSP semantics
17:37	hiredman	itym "youse"
17:37	bbloom	ztellman: depends on how you define "better". if you define it as "performs better & doesn't leak memory" then yes ;-) but if you say "gets the job done w/o me having to implement a lock"…
17:37	bbloom	ztellman: better still: don't use promises
17:38	pjstadig	hiredman: this is most definitely a yankeeism
17:38	tomjack	there's a mutex in core.async, so the impl is quite simple I think
17:38	bbloom	ztellman: promises are a expression-oriented idea, but channels are an procedure-oriented idea
17:39	tomjack	yes, this is why I don't want to use channels as promises :)
17:39	ztellman	bbloom: you'll need to expand on that a bit
17:39	tomjack	it's hard for me to imagine programming with result channels that emit the value once and then go nil
17:39	bbloom	1 sec, brb
17:39	ohpauleez	Maybe he means in channels, order is implied?
17:39	bbloom	or ok i'm here now. the person that needed me just 1 seconded me :-P
17:40	bbloom	what i mean is that promises are a reification of a lazy evaluation thunk
17:40	bbloom	channels are a reification of a communication link
17:40	bbloom	lazy evaluation is all about ignoring order and the demand driven nature of the world
17:41	bbloom	channels have inherent sequencing
17:41	bbloom	i'm saying that "pure and functional" isn't the be all end all of problem solving techniques
17:41	ztellman	well, not if you read from multiple channels at once
17:41	ztellman	but I take your meaning
17:41	bbloom	it's OK to write some procedural call if what you are modeling is actually a proceedure
17:41	tomjack	bbloom: sure, but neither is CSP :)
17:41	bbloom	procedural code*
17:41	bbloom	sure, CSP is about a bunch of little machines talking to each other
17:42	bbloom	each machine is a procedural message pump. ideally, the logic in there is functionally pure
17:42	gzmask	ok... another question: how do i make this: [0 1 2 3 4 5] -> [[0 1] [2 3] [4 5]] ?
17:42	bbloom	push your procedural code to the fringes of your system: but don't try to eliminate it completely
17:42	jouiswalker	use partition
17:43	tomjack	bbloom: I completely agree
17:43	ztellman	bbloom: so how do these two models interact?
17:43	tomjack	you made me realize though that my imagined frustration with 'result channels' was just an imagined misuse of the
17:43	ToxicFrog	,(partition 2 [0 1 2 3 4 5])
17:43	tomjack	them
17:43	clojurebot	((0 1) (2 3) (4 5))
17:43	tomjack	I guess you do 'put argument in, take return value out'
17:43	gzmask	ToxicFrog: thanks
17:43	bbloom	ztellman: "evaluate this function" is a procedure
17:43	tomjack	and passing around a channel as a representation of an eventual return value is wrong
17:44	bbloom	tomjack: yeah, i'm not sure how i feel about the returns-a-channel behavior of core.async
17:44	bbloom	single item channels just feels wrong to me
17:44	tomjack	..so what should it return? :)
17:44	jouiswalker	is the repl the best way to do development with seesaw?
17:44	ztellman	there's been parallel work on async promises
17:45	ztellman	weirdly, it seems completely disjoint from core.async
17:45	bbloom	tomjack: it should return a value, not a reified promise. that's what golang does
17:45	tomjack	it got replaced
17:45	patchwork	couldn't a single item channel be interpreted as a constant channel?
17:45	tomjack	cljque used to be in core.async
17:45	patchwork	A channel that never changes
17:45	tomjack	bbloom: but what about CLJS?
17:45	bbloom	tomjack: if you use macro magic to make that work & the single-item channels are an impl detail, that's probably fine
17:45	bbloom	tomjack: i dunno, this shit is hard heh
17:45	tomjack	yeah :(
17:46	bbloom	tomjack: more macros & more SSA or CPS rewriting
17:46	tomjack	I'm writing new SSA for await/deliver now
17:46	shriphani	hi I have a clojure selector that looks like this but I am not sure the attr-has usage is correct. Can someone take a look: http://pastebin.ca/2385417
17:46	ohpauleez	,(mapv vec (partition-all 2 [0 1 2 3 4 5]))
17:46	clojurebot	[[0 1] [2 3] [4 5]]
17:46	shriphani	enlive select *
17:46	ohpauleez	gzmask: ^
17:47	jouiswalker	,(doc mapv)
17:47	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f c1 c2] [f c1 c2 c3] [f c1 c2 c3 & ...]); Returns a vector consisting of the result of applying f to the set of first items of each coll, followed by applying f to the set of second items in each coll, until any one of the colls is exhausted. Any remaining items in other colls are ignored. Function f should accept number-of-colls arguments."
17:47	ohpauleez	if you really want vectors for some reason
17:47	jouiswalker	huh
17:47	jouiswalker	thats really nice
17:47	tomjack	unfortunately the current alt ioc will not cooperate with my efforts since it specifies async-chan-wrapper in its impl
17:47	jouiswalker	,(mapv identity (partition-all 2 [0 1 2 3 4 5]))
17:47	clojurebot	[(0 1) (2 3) (4 5)]
17:49	bbloom	tomjack: ztellman: one of the things i don't like about the C# approach is that it creates ITask (aka listenable promises/futures) objects everywhere
17:49	bbloom	tomjack: ztellman: but most of the time, you don't ever care about the promise object, just the contained value
17:50	bbloom	promises are useful, but only a tiny portion of the time :-)
17:50	tomjack	yes, the @ is a wart caused by lack of static types :P
17:50	ztellman	bbloom: yes, but where the promise is generated and where it's consumed can be different places
17:51	ztellman	allowing that to be decoupled can be useful
17:51	ztellman	though certainly not always
17:51	ohpauleez	I agree with that
17:51	ohpauleez	certainly not always, but nonetheless useful
17:51	justin_smith	what's the best way to provide a literal string to something that I would normally give a file handle to read from? (instead of creating a file just so it reads those contents)
17:51	jouiswalker	,(symbol? '+)
17:51	clojurebot	true
17:51	bbloom	ztellman: like i said, if channel or promise objects are an impl detail, that's fine. i just don't think that object should always be exposed to the user on normal cases
17:52	tomjack	I think go returning a channel makes sense to me if all your processes return nil
17:52	bbloom	go doesn't have promises, but you can block on a channel and return a value & you get … a VALUE… not a channel, but still the runtime needs to yield
17:52	tomjack	and take chan in/out args or something
17:52	bbloom	internally, they are parking goroutines… internally core.async is returning a channel and scheduling a callback
17:52	tomjack	hmm, no, that still doesn't make sense to me
17:53	jouiswalker	does anyone here think they would benefit from a 4clojure clone for sicp?
17:53	ohpauleez	I haven't used it in a production system, so I have no idea the implications of the design decision
17:54	ohpauleez	jouiswalker: http://sicpinclojure.com/
17:54	tomjack	my goal is to never have to use the promise impl methods except in the promise library impls
17:54	jouiswalker	i'm aware of it
17:54	ohpauleez	I'd just make the effort to fill that out
17:54	tomjack	you still have to worry about whether a fn returns a promise or not though
17:54	ohpauleez	and then make a scraper/generator to generate problems from the code
17:55	jouiswalker	but what theyre doing is rewriting a book
17:55	tomjack	oh and I think you still have to tell the ioc that you want to block on a promise with await or @ or whatever. but that's all I want to do to a promise, return it or @ it inside ioc
17:55	jouiswalker	i just mean a collection of test cases and such for the exercises
17:55	ohpauleez	jouiswalker: You read SICP and use the site to see the code in Clojure, then practice your skills more with generated 4clojure style problems
17:56	bbloom	tomjack: yeah, adding await to participate in ioc gets you most of the way there. it's essentially exactly what C# does… C# has this exact same IOC idea w/ reified promises instead of reified channels
17:56	bbloom	tomjack: channels are more general, but that has it's pros and cons
17:56	ztellman	tomjack: either you go all the way and do dataflow IOC that treats promises and realized values interchangeably, or you need some convention for what's returned
17:57	ztellman	I'm not sure there's a third option
17:57	tomjack	'going all the way' I think is infeasibly with core.async's ioc-macros
17:57	bbloom	tomjack: but if you never read from a promise twice, you just <! on the channel and not care
17:57	jouiswalker	oh do they plan on implementing test cases?
17:58	tomjack	I guess the ! is right there on the tin. so treat it like you would a transient, non-shareable
17:58	bbloom	tomjack: which a simple (let [the-value (<! a-channel-like-promise)] ….) gets the job done
17:58	jouiswalker	i'll check with the developer of the project
17:58	ztellman	tomjack: I haven't read ioc-macros closely enough to tell, but it's certainly doable with the core.async <! mechanism
17:58	bbloom	tomjack: exactly. the advantages of promises is that that dereferencing them is idempotent.
17:58	jouiswalker	thanks for making me take a closer look
17:58	Licenser	hey guys :) quick question, by brother wants to learn some clojure, he is entirely unexperienced with programming and I wonder what resource would be the best to start with?
17:59	tomjack	ztellman: the problem I see is that every single sub-expression under ioc will get CPS'd
17:59	jouiswalker	http://java.ociweb.com/mark/clojure/article.html
17:59	ohpauleez	Licenser: Chas's book
17:59	tomjack	or.. SSA'd
17:59	technomancy	Licenser: I don't believe there are good resources for people who aren't already programmers.
18:00	tomjack	so like (go-promise (+ 1 2)) will have to have 4 take!s
18:00	tomjack	unless you try to do inference about what's "trivial"
18:00	Licenser	technomancy awww
18:00	tomjack	which does not seem like fun to me without gradual types or something
18:01	ztellman	tomjack: agreed, back in the day when I took a run at the IOC macro, the idea was it would only be used at the top-level of a program
18:02	ztellman	but even then, you need instrumentation to understand what intermediate state the dataflow's in
18:02	ztellman	that's a lesser problem with the non-dataflow IOC (though still one that needs to be solved)
18:02	bbloom	tomjack: ztellman: i took the trivial vs serious approach w/ the CPS transform attempt i did
18:02	bbloom	i had a macro called "spawn" which was essentially "go"
18:02	jouiswalker	Licenser: you might ask him to do the first two or three chapters of practical common lisp to get him used to the syntax
18:02	tomjack	yeah that was enlightening
18:03	tomjack	the paper was unintelligible to me iirc
18:03	bbloom	it took me a while, yeah
18:03	technomancy	Licenser: htdp.org looks interesting for new programmers
18:03	bbloom	i think SSA was a better call, but i was hung up on going the CPS route for some reason
18:04	tomjack	my cljs tests so far of very simple go blocks have produced seemingly very large functions
18:04	bbloom	more over, i was dead set on supporting pluggable control structures, which is something i suggested to rich, but i think it was a better short term call to avoid that and go with a fixed set of primitives for v1
18:04	Licenser	guys you're awesome :)
18:04	tomjack	ioc-macros is obviously alpha and probably needs adjusting for cljs
18:04	bbloom	lastly, reified channels greatly simplifies the problem of "what do you do with return values?" when you have CPS, a continuation is NOT A FUNCTION. it isn't supposed to return & you need to pass the continuation to a function
18:04	gzmask	how do i construct as list by adding up part of another list like: [0 1 1 2 1 2 1] -> [0 1 2 4 5 7 8]?
18:04	tomjack	but we better be damn good at inferring triviality I think
18:05	tomjack	..or ^:trivial (+ 1 x) ?
18:05	bbloom	tomjack: well the brilliant part of SSA (as compared to CPS) is that you can do a single level of SSA
18:05	bbloom	you rewrite ONE function into a state machine
18:05	bbloom	rather than have to thread the CPS all the way through to the bottom
18:06	onthestairs	hmm, do i have a fundamental misunderstanding of core.logic? im trying to implement a simple solver which returns any functions from a list which are increasing
18:06	tomjack	ok, the function I am rewriting is (fn [in out] (let [x (<! in)] (>! out (+ x 42))))
18:06	onthestairs	https://gist.github.com/onthestairs/5681569
18:06	bbloom	i had attempted prior to studying golang, hadn't considered channels, and chose CPS over SSA. all of those mistakes are obvious to me now :-P
18:06	tomjack	well, no, channels won't be a good example
18:06	tomjack	my worry applies in the 'go all the way' dataflow case
18:06	dnolen	onthestairs: gist
18:07	jouiswalker	has anyone here played with avout?
18:07	dnolen	onthestairs: oh sorry you pasted
18:07	onthestairs	dnolen: no worries, cheers
18:07	tomjack	oh, hmm, I see
18:07	tomjack	I just tried an example and it seems to work out better than I thought
18:08	ohpauleez	,(reductions + [0 1 1 2 1 2 1])
18:08	clojurebot	(0 1 2 4 5 ...)
18:08	technomancy	Licenser: racket's error messages are so much better than clojure it's ridiculous. there are actually several different levels of beginner mode you can put it in to get simplified vs detailed error messages.
18:08	ohpauleez	gzmask: ^
18:08	tomjack	vars are tricky
18:08	technomancy	huuuuge contrast vs clojure's "I dunno; here's some compiler guts you can look at I guess"
18:08	dnolen	onthestairs: hrm, yeah that doesn't make sense.
18:08	tomjack	(fn [x] (add x 42)) - should we await! on add?
18:08	gzmask	ohpauleez: I known reduce but reductions are cool! thx!
18:08	dnolen	onthestairs: why are you projecting g?
18:09	Licenser	technomancy hmmm hmmm
18:09	tomjack	other problem is how to let functions have trivial return values
18:09	dnolen	onthestairs: you should probably project f which will be bound to a fn
18:10	technomancy	Licenser: there are some stupid things too (no docstrings, no callable hash tables by default) but for beginners it's a drastically better place to start
18:10	Licenser	technomancy my brother says 'nahh I already fell in love with clojure' <-that's good feedback I guess ;)
18:10	Licenser	I'll just have to help him out more ^^
18:10	onthestairs	dnolen: im not sure. i think i have a fundamental misunderstanding
18:10	technomancy	heh; well that works too; it just means he'll need more help from you rather than reading texts
18:10	technomancy	hah, exactly
18:10	onthestairs	dnolen: is there a good reference page for project
18:11	Licenser	technomancy I think I'll have to get him a IRC client :P
18:11	tomjack	bbloom: your point has analogy to lazy seqs I think - they support exactly the same value-oriented functions as their forced values
18:11	technomancy	Licenser: if you can shoulder-surf from someone experienced who is patient then you can learn anything =)
18:11	Foxboron	ummm
18:11	tomjack	..by bundling in a procedural notion?
18:11	Licenser	technomancy true!
18:11	Foxboron	I don't know Clojure that well. But i could help out mentoring another guy (Ref: technomancy Licenser)
18:12	Foxboron	mentored a few people in Python. Might as well be a good learning experience
18:12	dnolen	tomjack: heh core.match generates a lot of JS too. I imagine people will restrict go blocks to the bits of the program that are actually async no?
18:12	technomancy	it just doesn't scale well
18:12	tomjack	dnolen: yes, but not every subexpression of those bits will also be async
18:12	bbloom	tomjack: yeah, but that only works b/c seqs are protocols. if you wanted to do that w/o a seq you'd need to proxy/delegate all the same interface methods :-/
18:12	dnolen	onthestairs: tomjack yes but I can't imagine it will matter, if it's async it's likely IO bound
18:12	Licenser	Foxboron that's cool :) so I don't want to put that on anyone but me :) but I'll send him to the channel non the less, learning clojure is after all also about learnign the community ^^
18:13	dnolen	and people will move out big expressions into fns as usual.
18:13	onthestairs	dnolen: oo nice, i have got it working. thanks
18:13	tomjack	maybe it would be OK
18:13	Licenser	plan is that we're going to do a little project together to learn some stuff, so it's more about learning the very basics so he's not staring blankly on the screen all the time ;)
18:13	tomjack	I mean I think current core.async go w/ channel output is probably OK
18:14	Foxboron	Licenser: teach him gist maybe?
18:14	Foxboron	Licenser: also, clojure-koans is a good place IMO
18:14	tomjack	to be clear I was discussing a different ioc macro which lets any subexpression return a single-assignment dataflow variable transparently
18:14	Licenser	Foxboron gist?
18:14	dnolen	tomjack: based on the Node.js crap I've had to right, I'm pretty sure it's OK
18:14	dnolen	write
18:14	Foxboron	Licenser: https://gist.github.com/
18:15	Licenser	Foxboron oh hah! okay I wasn't thinking that simple ^^
18:15	tomjack	(which I have not really seriously considered in a long time)
18:15	tomjack	(not that I have very good reasons not to)
18:15	Foxboron	Licenser: it is not git, but it helps him keep track of his files, changes etc.
18:15	ztellman	tomjack: if you confine the dataflow to a function, and force the function to return a realized value
18:15	Licenser	Foxboron yea I know them just thought you mean something else :)
18:15	technomancy	speaking of things that are horrible for newcomers... git =(
18:15	bbloom	personally, i like implementing services as explicit state machines operating on sequences of messages… but i'm a crazy person :-)
18:15	tomjack	these functions can't return realized values in cljs
18:15	tomjack	maybe I misunderstand?
18:16	dnolen	tomjack: they cannot
18:16	ztellman	oh, I missed the cljs bit
18:16	ztellman	yeah, that's a trick
18:17	ztellman	is there a js-land full dataflow transformer, or do they all use some variant of 'await'?
18:17	ztellman	I've only seen the latter
18:17	Foxboron	technomancy: it is horrible for other people too. Used git every day for almost a year. I still fuck something.
18:17	dnolen	ztellman: no, there are blocking reads in JS and there will be no tricks. All read/writes on channels must be in go block
18:17	dnolen	there are no blocking reads
18:17	dnolen	I mean
18:17	dnolen	er reads/writes
18:18	tomjack	they have no macros so I would not be surprised if they haven't done it..
18:18	jouiswalker	foxboron: do you have something you prefer over git?
18:18	Licenser	technomancy Foxboron got him sourcetree, it makes it mostly barable I think
18:18	Foxboron	jouiswalker: I actually like git. But i always manage to fuck something up.
18:18	jouiswalker	foxboron: hehe
18:19	tomjack	it's interesting how "transparent" can mean both "you can't see it" and "you can see it clearly"
18:20	ztellman	tomjack: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-antonym
18:20	tomjack	:D
18:20	dnolen	ztellman: maybe await, but I didn't hear rhickey mention that
18:20	ztellman	dnolen: where was this discussed?
18:20	Licenser	And there we are :) may I introduce my brother SomeOtherGuy!
18:20	jouiswalker	tomjack: isn't it supposed to be an intermediate between tranlucent and opaque?
18:20	dnolen	ztellman: rhickey's been popping into the channel talking about the core.async stuff now and then
18:20	SomeOtherGuy	Hey guys! :)
18:20	jouiswalker	translucent*
18:21	noprompt	if anyone wants a good laugh i hand rolled a little migration lib for korma https://gist.github.com/noprompt/5681539
18:21	technomancy	SomeOtherGuy: welcome
18:22	noprompt	for the record, i have no idea what the hell i was doing or how those things should work.
18:22	jouiswalker	noprompt: that is beautiful
18:23	noprompt	jouiswalker: you're being sarcastic, right? :)
18:23	jouiswalker	noprompt: its better than what i manage :3
18:24	noprompt	honestly though, i'd love to know how to actually build something like this correctly.
18:24	tomjack	noprompt: my gripe is that all the migrations are collected into a global atom
18:24	noprompt	tomjack: yeah, i didn't know how else to do it.
18:25	jouiswalker	noprompt: you might be able to use some partials with append-x and such
18:25	SomeOtherGuy	Sorry If I'm not very communicative. Try to understand things that seem to be above my intellect!
18:25	noprompt	tomjack: so what would be the alternaive?
18:27	tomjack	a cheap fix would be to key the entries in the global somehow by user-specified keys
18:27	tomjack	and allow the user to somehow pick out the migrations to run with migrate!
18:27	tomjack	but I don't like that either
18:27	tomjack	simple thing seems to be to just have the user pass a collections of migrations to run?
18:27	tomjack	..but I haven't ever tried to write a migration library, so.. if it works for you, great :)
18:29	noprompt	so let me grab an example of the usage
18:30	jouiswalker	are there any deprecated lein plugins that someone would like to see renovated?
18:32	jouiswalker	i want to relieve boredom by making something useful :/
18:32	tomjack	jouiswalker: no, but I want to see a new one for generic run-task-on-file-change watches
18:32	jouiswalker	whats the current one and how would you like me to change it?
18:33	tomjack	there isn't a current one really
18:33	jouiswalker	:x
18:33	tomjack	cljsbuild has an 'auto' which I don't like much
18:33	tomjack	there are sketches of how to use the java 7 file watcher stuff in clojure
18:34	tomjack	I started a project for this 'lein-auto' but spent only about 15min so far on it..
18:34	tomjack	hmm
18:35	tomjack
18:35	jouiswalker	is your work on github?
18:35	tomjack	I realize now that could be a lot trickier than I thought
18:35	jouiswalker	i just see a couple forks :p
18:35	tomjack	no, I have barely anything at all
18:35	tomjack	15min was mostly taken up by trying to grok the file watcher api
18:36	tomjack	then I stopped and said "hey, cljsbuild is working"
18:36	jouiswalker	lol
18:36	jouiswalker	i'll try my hand at it
18:37	tomjack	I wonder if you can start up a project jvm, keep it running, and eval-in-project multiple times?
18:37	ztellman	tomjack: I think eval-in-project creates a new environment each time
18:37	ztellman	you'll need to eval something which runs a background process within the project
18:37	tomjack	well I guess you can start up an nrepl thingy
18:37	tomjack	?
18:37	justin_smith	anwsering my own question above (def to-stream (fn [s] (io/input-stream (.getBytes s))))
18:38	ztellman	though there are other people who can speak more authoritatively about this than me
18:38	tomjack	yeah, makes sense
18:39	noprompt	tomjack: i've updated the gist with a little example at the bottom
18:40	noprompt	jouiswalker: you should write a shell in clojure :) how's that for a fun project
18:40	tomjack	noprompt: yeah, looks nice and pretty simple except for the globals :)
18:40	jouiswalker	nopromt: eww haha
18:44	noprompt	jouiswalker: well it could be fun.
18:44	jouiswalker	noprompt: maybe a parser that converts s expressions to bash calls or something lol
18:45	noprompt	jouiswalker: also, if you know a thing or two about css you could help me improve my CSS lib which i haven't had much time for lately :*(
18:45	jouiswalker	noprompt: garden?
18:45	justin_smith	jouiswalker: so basically a port of scsh
18:46	noprompt	jouiswalker: i was working on a little project that would convert a vector of strings in to an efficient regular expression that would match any of the strings in the vector
18:46	justin_smith	scsh "regular expressions" are actually much more sane than the standard
18:46	jouiswalker	justin_smith: i knew there had to be one! thats cool.
18:47	tomjack	"it's a lisp" "oh, so there are a lot of parentheses..." <- happened :(
18:47	justin_smith	I used it for a while, ages ago. the extra parens are OK when you are coding and spending more time thinking than typing, in a shell they are a pain in the ass
18:47	noprompt	jouiswalker: yeah, garden.
18:47	tomjack	not jokingly, but trailing off and almost despairingly
18:48	noprompt	well if you were gonna write a shell in clojure i would imagine it working kind of like the emacs shell
18:48	jouiswalker	justin_smith: it seems with paredit it wouldn't be painful
18:48	jouiswalker	^
18:48	justin_smith	yeah, my tty did not provide paredit
18:49	jouiswalker	hehe, i tried installing scsh. at least for arch, it seems like its not compatible for 64 bit
18:50	noprompt	fish is a neato shell.
18:50	noprompt	it's got a lot of "geewiz" features.
18:50	justin_smith	scsh is ancient, really it is a scheme library, so the best way would be to get an up to date scheme, and port scsh to it
18:50	jouiswalker	speaking of shells
18:51	jouiswalker	whenever i run lein repl in xterm backspaces start giving me weird behavior
18:51	noprompt	that is weird
18:51	clojurebot	Alles klar
18:51	justin_smith	sounds like a bad termcap
18:52	noprompt	can't remember the last time i used lein repl directly w/o emacs though
18:52	jouiswalker	true. an interesting effect though, since it plays well with ther terminals
18:53	technomancy	jouiswalker: have you seen this? https://groups.google.com/group/clojure-tools/browse_thread/thread/c08b628a9af8346d
18:53	tomjack	I wonder how core.async will deal with exceptions
18:53	jouiswalker	for example, "aoeu<backspace><backspace><backspace><backspace>" winds up as "aoeu^H^H^H^H"
18:53	technomancy	if you're looking for something to implement ... =)
18:54	justin_smith	I think nrepl uses a java readline library, that is notoriously less than perfect
18:58	jouiswalker	technomancy: now that is interesting
19:00	dobry-den	Here's a few lines of a trivial parser: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/5681884 — How do you solve this fundamental ambiguity? `root = ul` will be greedy as I wish [:ul [:li "Item A"] [:li "Item B"]] — Yet `root = ul+` will make two [:ul] — one for each li.
19:02	dobry-den	In other words, as soon as I `root = (ul \| ol \| p \| code)+`, the lists only slurp up one list element each.
19:04	jouiswalker	technomancy: so he wants to be able to generate language-x from clojure-like code to target devtool-x?
19:05	technomancy	jouiswalker: he -> me =)
19:05	technomancy	but yeah
19:05	jouiswalker	technomancy: oh!
19:05	noprompt	technomancy: did regex syntax highlighting ever get folded in to clojure-mode?
19:06	technomancy	noprompt: not that I'm aware of
19:06	gzmask	time to go. thanks for help forks! :wq
19:07	noprompt	technomancy: for some reason i thought i saw a PR for it.
19:09	noprompt	technomancy: just out of curiousity, why not use the JVM to generate all the keyword code for clojure-mode?
19:09	noprompt	that's how the vim-clojure-static does it https://github.com/guns/vim-clojure-static/blob/master/syntax/clojure.vim#L18
19:10	technomancy	noprompt: not sure; I didn't write it
19:10	noprompt	technomancy: oh :)
19:10	jouiswalker	man, i see tim pope's stuff everywhere
19:11	supersym	technomancy: looks cool, weren't protocols designed for this kind of interfacing though or wouldnt that work with vim/emacsen?
19:11	technomancy	noprompt: pjstadig has been merging some clojure-mode pull reqs too, so I could have missed it
19:11	noprompt	that's because tpope care's
19:11	technomancy	one way to find out
19:11	noprompt	*cares
19:11	technomancy	supersym: clojure protocols?
19:11	technomancy	supersym: I don't think there's any connection
19:11	supersym	yea
19:12	technomancy	there's no polymorphism going on here
19:12	supersym	no thats what I thought
19:12	jouiswalker	oh wow hes in here
19:12	noprompt	technomancy: cool. yeah, regex highlighting would be seriously nice.
19:12	technomancy	supersym: the clojure-side code is quite trivial; the tricky part is defining a minimal language which can feasibly be implemented across client runtimes
19:13	technomancy	where "language" is "vocabulary for describing operations, their arguments, and ways to display their return values"
19:13	supersym	I was actually thinking about something along these lines as well
19:13	hiredman	better bencode it
19:17	jouiswalker	technomancy: in your example, does doc have already definitions in vimscript and elisp?
19:17	supersym	so if I get it right, this is a layer that exposes meta-data basically right? but self-describing in a generic fashion so people can hook to it, like a REST API almost? or did I get that wrong
19:17	jouiswalker	already have*
19:18	noprompt	hmm... guess i was wrong.
19:19	tomjack	I see promises are weirder than I thought from a core.async perspective
19:19	tomjack	-- when is the put!/deliver! callback called?
19:19	tomjack	it's not CSP so it doesn't make sense with put!. maybe deliver! has no callback..
19:19	tomjack	..of course it doesn't, I guess
19:20	jouiswalker	noprompt: what do you need done in garden?
19:23	jouiswalker	technomancy: i dont see enough information in the example you gave to infer that a docstring needs to be displayed
19:29	cbp``	Do you still to dl curl/wget on windows for the latest lein version?
19:30	cbp`	to use the latest lein*
19:31	decaf	cbp`: nope
19:31	cbp`	decaf: thank you
19:32	cbp`	Oh you can use upgrade now too :)
19:32	tomjack	(gofn [in-chan out-chan err-chan] (>! out-chan 42) (close! out-chan)) ?
19:33	tomjack	(gofn [{:keys [in out err]}] (>! out 42) (close! out))
19:37	jouiswalker	technomancy: what about sending asts of maps and defining some primitive operations in vimscript/elisp
19:39	jouiswalker	technomancy: actually, probably easier just to do a map with an ast nested inside
19:45	technomancy	jouiswalker: all emacs commands have docstrings attached to them
19:45	technomancy	dunno about vim
19:46	jouiswalker	hmm
19:46	technomancy	supersym: yeah
19:47	jouiswalker	well, if we catalogued vim commands that fulfilled the same as the emacs commands
19:47	bbloom	technomancy: vim has excellent documentation. :help whatever
19:48	jouiswalker	it might be possible to just match from one source
19:48	technomancy	jouiswalker: no asts
19:48	technomancy	the point is to avoid writing elisp on a per-command basis
19:48	bbloom	technomancy: it uses external docs though. you don't put a doc string on a fn, you have docuementation with an annotation of keywords
19:48	technomancy	you just describe the data type you intend to return, and the client already knows how to display it
19:49	jouiswalker	would you consider a docstring a datatype?
19:50	technomancy	no, strings would be the data type
19:50	technomancy	jouiswalker: cemerick is convinced that we can describe enough return types to completely remove the need for custom elisp. I don't think that's realistic, but I think we can cover common cases.
19:51	jouiswalker	sort of like... process of elimination through argument list and return type?
19:51	technomancy	I don't folow
19:52	technomancy	follow
19:52	cemerick	I shall not be trolled :-P
19:52	jouiswalker	i dont see anywhere in the example that specifies that a docstring has to be returned
19:53	jouiswalker	but i'd personally be surprised if vim required more information to display a docstring than emacs does
19:54	jouiswalker
19:54	jouiswalker	{:op "doc"
19:54	jouiswalker	:doc "Display the docstring of a given var."
19:54	jouiswalker	:arglist [{:prompt "Var: " :type :var}]
19:54	jouiswalker	:client-handler [:message]}
19:54	cemerick	can't.....resist...
19:54	cemerick	technomancy: the custom X (whether elisp, vimscript, java, python, or whatever else your tooling is written in) will be needed, it just shouldn't be the server's job to deliver it.
19:54	cemerick	(or, op implementation, whatever)
19:54	technomancy	cemerick: OK, works for me =)
19:55	technomancy	so upon re-reading this I don't think putting the return type on the op makes sense
19:55	technomancy	it should probably be included in the response itself
19:55	jouiswalker	thats clearer
19:55	technomancy	since a given op could return different types based on whether it succeeds or fails, etc
19:55	cemerick	it's probably reasonable to put it on the op as well, so tools can indicate support ahead of invoking an op
19:56	technomancy	maybe
19:56	cemerick	no reason why an op's "return types" can't just be a vector of whatever other values you're going to ship with a response
19:57	technomancy	should be optional
19:58	technomancy	RFC: http://p.hagelb.org/nrepl-discover.clj.html
19:58	Raynes	Ladies and gentleman, do not leave your seats, refheap and 4clojure will be returning momentarily.
19:59	technomancy	^ the above assumes :value in the response is just a string unless :type is given
19:59	technomancy	not totally sold on :arglist ["var:var"] in particular
20:00	technomancy	basically it's saying use "var" as the prompt, and if you have any special completion UI for choosing an existing var, use that
20:00	Raynes	And we're good.
20:01	noprompt	w00t! yay! <3 <3 <3
20:01	hiredman	why not just sexpressions?
20:01	hiredman	(var var)
20:02	hiredman	(or bencode it...)
20:02	noprompt	Raynes: i had to use a stinkin' gist today! :P
20:02	Raynes	noprompt: Oh the agony.
20:02	technomancy	hiredman: yeah, ("var" var) would probably be better
20:02	noprompt	literally tears running down my face.
20:02	noprompt	Raynes: did you enjoy the concert?
20:02	Raynes	noprompt: Oh goodness yes.
20:02	technomancy	hiredman: emphasizing that the first is a literal string and the second is symbolic
20:03	technomancy	or maybe ("Var: " var)
20:03	Raynes	noprompt: I've also won a lottery and get to be part of the audience on June 4th at a secret/private Imagine Dragons concert for the season 6 finale of Live From The Artist's Den
20:03	noprompt	awesome. i can't remember the last time i went to a show. miss those things.
20:03	technomancy	I was trying to avoid alists because they seem like an elisp bias, but they do seem to be a good fit here =)
20:03	noprompt	Raynes: say wut? damn, that's awesome dude.
20:04	technomancy	actually... maybe we need three values? user-visible prompt string, type, and argument name to put in the nrepl msg?
20:04	technomancy	user-visible string could be optional and default to the argument name
20:05	jouiswalker	that sounds like a good idea to me
20:05	hiredman	obviously you need reader literals to semantically tag things without specifying their concrete type
20:05	technomancy	:arglist [[var var "Trace: "]]
20:06	jouiswalker	are there types that var is limited to?
20:07	technomancy	jouiswalker: string, var, namespace, file, and position (file/line/col tuple) at least
20:07	technomancy	oh, and choose-one-of-a-predefined-set-of-options
20:08	technomancy	those are the main types I can think of for which the client can provide useful completion
20:09	jouiswalker	why position instead of int and tuple?
20:10	bbloom	dnolen: sooo cljs' tagged literals are fundamentally broken
20:10	bbloom	user=> '#inst "2000-01-01"
20:10	bbloom	#inst "2000-01-01T00:00:00.000-00:00"
20:10	bbloom	vs:
20:10	bbloom	ClojureScript:cljs.user> '#inst "2000-01-01"
20:10	bbloom	(js/Date. 946684800000)
20:10	technomancy	jouiswalker: because the client can just provide the current position of the cursor without actually prompting the user
20:10	dnolen	bbloom: this is not the first time I've heard that
20:11	technomancy	if you are going to ask for an integer, you can ship it as a string; it's not going to save the user any typing for the client to know it's going to be used as an int
20:12	brehaut	designers. sheesh
20:13	bbloom	dnolen: yeah, turns out that stratefied environments are really difficult to formalize with respect to metaprogramming….
20:14	dnolen	bbloom: tho to be honest I don't really see the problem you're trying to demonstrate here since the literal just creates a java.util.Date
20:14	bbloom	dnolen: note the quoting
20:14	bbloom	dnolen: the main benefit of reader literals from a metaprogramming standpoint is that they are evaluated prior to quoting
20:15	bbloom	dnolen: clojure's extra syntax lets you sneak just a little bit extra info into macros -- something you can't do with just lists in scheme
20:15	bbloom	dnolen: tagged literals offer the same power: you can pass a date/time to a macro
20:15	jouiswalker	oh hold on
20:15	hiredman	dnolen: that completely undermines literals
20:15	jouiswalker	you dont mean excluding tuple or int
20:15	tomjack	curious what you're trying to do :)
20:16	jouiswalker	youre just saying you could leave position in there to simplify things
20:16	hiredman	dnolen: you are supposed to be able to read #inst "2000-01-01" and get a date without an eval step
20:17	technomancy	jouiswalker: right; arglist types would all be about convenience to the user
20:18	jouiswalker	gotcha
20:18	dnolen	bbloom: hiredman: right, though I never considered that anything but a bit of odd convenience of Clojure JVM implementation.
20:18	dnolen	bbloom: what do you need that behavior for in CLJS?
20:19	hiredman	dnolen: it is the whole shooting match regarding literals, expanding in to something requires eval is not a literal
20:20	bbloom	dnolen: i've got a pretty big macro that i want to work in cljs, but i have 2-ish custom types i need to pass to the macro. tagged literals are perfect on clj, but on cljs, i need to use metadata.. however i can't put metadata on numbers or keywords or anything, so i need to basically use a wrapper vector, it's awkward: ^MyType [theValue]
20:20	hiredman	having reading literals turn in to forms takes the e out of edn
20:20	dnolen	hiredman: right
20:20	bbloom	dnolen: yeah totally agree w/ hiredman
20:21	tomjack	hiredman: (defn foo [] #inst "2012"). in cljs, foo does return a js date. did you already know this?
20:21	dnolen	bbloom: is this not something we can get around by treating reader literals specially in the presence of quoting?
20:21	bbloom	tomjack: (defmacro literal-type [x] (str (type x)))
20:21	jtoy	how can I use lein to run a single command and quit out?
20:21	hiredman	tomjack: shh, I'm talking to people
20:21	bbloom	tomjack: try that in both clj and cljs, in clj you'll get a inst, on cljs, you'll get a list
20:22	tomjack	no..
20:22	bbloom	dnolen: in order to get this to work, we need a custom macro system
20:22	bbloom	dnolen: we can't use clojure's macro system
20:23	bbloom	dnolen: but even still, the result of a reader literal would need to be something that is serializable. ie you can't emit a java.util.Date
20:23	dnolen	bbloom: I don't really understand, macro gets a java date via a literal, compiler emits a js/Date
20:23	hiredman	bbloom: I don't see how that is correct?
20:23	hiredman	bbloom: literals are a reader thing
20:23	dnolen	or a goog.date.Date
20:24	hiredman	I guess the problem is if the macro emits a quoted form passed to a function
20:24	dnolen	bbloom: works well enough for Regex, why can't it work for date literals
20:25	hiredman	so the compiler needs to walk quoted forms and effectively unquote forms that are the result of a reader literal
20:25	bbloom	this is yet another reason i think there needs to be a TaggedLiteral type…. read time is too early to decide if you want a java date or a js date
20:26	brehaut	bbloom: the correct answer is you want neither :P
20:26	tomjack	couldn't the cljs reader read with its own default handler that uses a TaggedLiteral?
20:26	bbloom	i could write a macro that takes a date as an argument to make a decision, or i could write a macro that takes a date and emits that date in the expansion
20:26	tomjack	I mean the clojure-for-cljs reader
20:27	jouiswalker	lol. stu saying "i dont feel the absence of a debugger" ironically drew a lot of attention to debuggers for clojure
20:27	dnolen	bbloom: I still don't see the problem
20:28	dnolen	bbloom: looks like cljs.tagged_literals.clj is just doing the wrong thing
20:28	dnolen	should always convert to Java types and not move around lists of symbols as it is now
20:28	dnolen	then you can convert during emission
20:28	tomjack	there is no way to register an unreader
20:29	bbloom	dnolen: that's certainly an improvement over what is there now
20:29	tomjack	if you do that you lose the 'e' completely?
20:29	dnolen	we already emit Java types all the time and there's not much of an issue
20:29	tomjack	oh I guess there is a way, print-method :)
20:29	dnolen	I don't see how literals aer any different
20:29	bbloom	dnolen: no, you're right. i was just elaborating on the nature of the problem
20:30	dnolen	bbiab
20:30	bbloom	dnolen: i guess then the rule is that data readers always produce values in the compiler's environment, not the target environment. and therefore we also need pluggable emission for emit-constant
20:31	hiredman	readers
20:31	bbloom	hiredman: does that sound sane to you?
20:32	hiredman	I dunno, thinking about it, how can literals work in a mixed environment like clojurescript?
20:33	bbloom	hiredman: just 10 minutes ago, i'd have said that they can't work… but i think dnolen is right… they would work like this:
20:33	hiredman	if I define a clojurescript type and a clojurescript reader literal, what type does the clojrue reader create? what types do macros in clojure get?
20:34	bbloom	there are two readers: the clj and the cljs reader
20:34	bbloom	you need to write two different functions for tagged literals in both
20:34	bbloom	the first one, is used at compile time & the literals always return java types
20:34	bbloom	but you ALSO need to have an emit-constant method
20:34	hiredman	so the clojurescript compiler pr-strs and read-strings?
20:34	hiredman	err, pr-strs and emits read-strings?
20:35	bbloom	no, the cljs compiler calls emit, which produces js code
20:35	bbloom	AFTER macro expansion
20:35	hiredman	right, but the macros can pass through and result in arbitrary types in forms
20:35	bbloom	yeah, there is just an extra layer: the translation from clj -> cljs
20:36	hiredman	(which is why I guess the clojure compiler does this thing)
20:36	bbloom	or clj -> js, more specifically
20:37	hiredman	like, if I have a java type Foo, how does the cljs compiler now how to conver that in to js? it doesn't it has to pr-str it and use read-string to reconstruct it on the js side
20:37	bbloom	hiredman: no, it doesn't emit edn strings, it emits js code
20:37	hiredman	it can't
20:38	bbloom	literals (should) yield :op :constant AST nodes
20:38	hiredman	Foo is an arbitrary object resulting from macroexpansion
20:38	bbloom	yeah, macro expansion occurs during the analysis phase, prior to code emission
20:38	bbloom	no strings involved yet
20:39	hiredman	right, an instance Foo comes out of a macro, and now the compiler wants to emit js, what does it do?
20:40	bbloom	currently: calls emit-constant and throws a no matching method error :-)
20:40	hiredman	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Compiler.java#L4561-4586 the clojure compiler has to deal with the same thing
20:41	tomjack	wow
20:42	tomjack	I was just wondering why a macro returning a date didn't blow up with "can't embed object in code"
20:42	hiredman	I think I have a branch somewhere where I added an IConstant to clojure
20:43	bbloom	interesting.
20:45	hiredman	you can actually use IType I think, which if you extend it lets you sort of control how the type is embedded
20:45	hiredman	IConstant I think just effected the type of the final field used as a "constant" table
20:45	bbloom	seems like tagged-readers needs a matching type-emitters
20:46	hiredman	a protocol like IType maybe
20:46	bbloom	yeah something like that
20:46	hiredman	feh
20:47	hiredman	the itype interface is empty now?
20:47	bbloom	i'm not familiar with this part of the clj compiler
20:47	bbloom	a protocol or a multimethod would do the trick really
20:47	hiredman	at one point there was some interface (which I think was IType) that had a getBasis method that would return a vector of field names
20:48	bbloom	emit-constant is currently a multimethod, but if you use a fn or multimethod, then you'd want that in a dynamic var
20:48	hiredman	the compiler would, for that type, emit a constructor call with the values of those fields
20:48	hiredman	it looks like it still does, but it calls getBasis reflectively
20:49	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/clojure/blob/reflection-method-caching/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Compiler.java#L4422-4444
20:50	hiredman	oh, whoops, that is my branch, it may be old
20:51	bbloom	haha
20:52	hiredman	nah, hasn't changed much on clojure master
20:52	bbloom	dnolen: i think we can just delete cljs-data-readers and replace it with cljs-constant-emitters
20:56	dnolen	bbloom: hmm I don't see a need to get rid of cljs-data-readers, bootstrapping is in our future
20:56	dnolen	bbloom: but yeah, cljs-constant-emitters that just explains how to convert Java types
20:57	dnolen	you'll have to define your readers twice (compile-time / dynamic runtime reads), but this solves the issue you're talking about
20:58	dnolen	bbloom: I'm willing to take a patch for that, perhaps a clojure-dev mailing list post is order just to get a little more feedback
21:00	bbloom	dnolen: i'll send you a patch if it ever becomes a real problem for me. in the meantime, should i just make a ticket?
21:01	dnolen	bbloom: sure, this may actually duplicate cemerick's tickets
21:01	bbloom	ok, i'll search
21:02	dnolen	bbloom: actually unrelated, go ahead an open a ticket
21:03	noprompt	i/
21:13	akurilin	Quick question: I'm trying to grok the whole idea behind moving past OO. Specifically with regards to methods. Is the idea that instead of having methods be part of the types I define, operating on their state, I should rather extract that method into a function in a namespace somewhere, and pass the object to it?
21:14	akurilin	I think it's interesting to see something like moment. js and clj-time do very similar operations on time types, yet the former is all about methods and the latter is the reverse.
21:15	bbloom	akurilin: OOP & methods still makes sense with mutable objects, hence why deftype defprotocol, all that jazz exists. but they are tools for a different set of problems than most business logic deals with. by default, you should be working with immutable data & free functions
21:15	brehaut	akurilin: your question is quite general. methods / objects bundle a bunch of different things together into a single mechanism. there are multiple different things to do the job of methods in clojure/FP
21:17	technomancy	akurilin: are you using "method" to mean defmethod or just "a procedure attached to an object"?
21:17	hiredman	~#9
21:17	clojurebot	9. It is better to have 100 functions operate on one data structure than 10 functions on 10 data structures. -- Alan J. Perlis
21:17	brehaut	akurilin: btw, clj-time is a slim wrapper around Joda Time, which is a java lib that uses methods everywhere (because it has to)
21:17	akurilin	technomancy, procedure with implicit self/this as first parameter
21:18	akurilin	brehaut, I get that, but doesn't it try to make the underlying operations more idiomatic with respect to Clojure?
21:18	technomancy	akurilin: ok, makes sense
21:18	jouiswalker	dnolen: have you read doug hoyte's let over lambda?
21:18	bbloom	akurilin: have you ever asked yourself "what class does this method go on?" and then realized a sensible argument could be made for either? you shouldn't make an arbitrary factoring decision like that unless you're getting some benefit from doing so
21:18	hiredman	akurilin: see that is part of the problem, that is actually a very small part of what you get from most oo systems (and not all of them, I believe python doesn't have implicit selfs)
21:18	dnolen	akurilin: I don't think looking at a project that demands polymorphism is a good intro into Clojure
21:18	dnolen	jouiswalker: nope
21:18	brehaut	akurilin: well, yes, but the fundamental immutable datamodel is in java, no clojure.
21:19	akurilin	bbloom, is there a good way to know when methods are indeed the right way to go, if you say in most cases they aren't?
21:19	hiredman	methods often also introduce polymorphism
21:19	jouiswalker	dnolen: just curious ;p
21:19	dnolen	jouiswalker: yeah, it just sounded like CL drivel
21:19	bbloom	akurilin: when you are just learning clj, methods are NEVER the right way to go :-)
21:19	dnolen	jouiswalker: and I like macros a lot
21:20	jouiswalker	dnolen: it sort of was. there was some interesting performance related stuff he did in it though
21:20	bbloom	akurilin: but the reason to really use methods is when you want fast single dispatch by type
21:20	bbloom	akurilin: that's basically the only reason
21:20	jouiswalker	dnolen: it didnt take long for his words to go over my head though lol
21:21	akurilin	bbloom, is the idea to replace those with multimethods that can operate on a set of supported types?
21:22	dnolen	jouiswalker: I find Art of the Object Metaprotocol a more interesting exposition on the power of macros since it about combining well designed functions with well designed macros
21:22	brehaut	~polymorphism
21:22	clojurebot	genuine need for polymorphism just isn't very common
21:22	hiredman	feh
21:22	hiredman	technomancy: says you
21:22	bbloom	akurilin: multimethods are more flexible than methods, but are also more complicated than regular functions
21:22	bbloom	akurilin: the question you need to ask is whether or not you need open dispatch
21:23	trptcolin	jouiswalker: saw your note about an `lein repl` + backspace issue. is this lein 2.2.0?
21:23	jouiswalker	dnolen: i'll take a look. i've been in this swapping in between on lisp and paradigms of artificial intelligence for about two years xD
21:23	technomancy	hiredman: on a regular basis
21:23	bbloom	akurilin: you can always do (cond (fn? x) y (number? z) w …)
21:23	dnolen	jouiswalker: both good books
21:23	jouiswalker	trptcolin: yes
21:23	akurilin	bbloom, not familiar with the term, google isn't revealing anything either
21:23	jouiswalker	trptcolin: but it was present before that as well
21:24	brehaut	hiredman: its certainly not as necessary as its place in OO might suggest
21:24	hiredman	brehaut: sure, ala carte
21:24	jouiswalker	dnolen: thanks for the book recommendation
21:24	clojurebot	brehaut is ‽
21:24	bbloom	akurilin: in this case "open" means accessible for other people to extend
21:24	brehaut	WTF clojurebot
21:25	bbloom	akurilin: an cond block sn't open to extension, you can't add more cases to it
21:25	bbloom	akurilin: but a multimethod lets you add more cases without changing the code
21:25	bbloom	akurilin: if you don't need open extension, start off with cond
21:25	hiredman	it's not about prevalence, it is about disconnecting decisions about polymorphism from decisions about namespacing, etc
21:26	dnolen	akurilin: jumping back a bit, the idea in Clojure is that polymorphism should come a la carte - not stuck inside of some object or a feature of some class, this emphasizes value oriented programming which the important thing.
21:26	dnolen	akurilin: even in projects that make heavy use of protocols, you're still trying building things up to the point where you can get to simple value oriented programming.
21:27	trptcolin	jouiswalker: sure. my xterm seems happy. so the two possibilities i see: ~/.inputrc setting overriding default keybindings or some keystroke is unmapped by jline
21:27	decaf	(do (def alphabet (char-array "abc")) (class alphabet)) returns "[C" without quotes. am I hitting a giant bug here?
21:27	brehaut	decaf: no; arrays are primatives
21:27	hiredman	that is the internal jvm type of an array of characters
21:28	decaf	we should get something more readable like char[]
21:28	jouiswalker	cat .inputrc : set editing-mode emacs, set keymap emacs
21:28	jouiswalker
21:28	technomancy	decaf: it is pretty ridiculous
21:28	hiredman	we?
21:28	technomancy	but it's JVM ridiculousness, not clojure-specific ridiculousness
21:29	jouiswalker	trptcolin: its sort of interesting, since using the repl within xterm works just fine
21:29	akurilin	dnolen, sounds great, thanks for clarifying. I've actually not run very much into need for polymorphism just yet because of how small my projects' scope generally is.
21:29	akurilin	dnolen, I'd certainly love to know basic rule of thumbs I can follow until I've gotten enough experience that I can judge well on my own.
21:29	decaf	hiredman: we, clojure programmers, especially newcomers. english is not my native language.
21:29	jouiswalker	trptcolin: after i exit the repl using (exit), i'm able to do weird stuff like
21:29	jouiswalker	trptcolin: aoeu^H^H^H^H
21:29	jouiswalker	bash: $'aoeu\b\b\b\b': command not found
21:29	jouiswalker
21:30	trptcolin	jouiswalker: oh, so this is after exiting the repl
21:30	jouiswalker	trptcolin: yes
21:30	bbloom	akurilin: that's what i was trying to provide. just work with pure functions & clj data structures until you have a problem you just don't know how to solve without them. then you can figure out which tool solves precisely the problem you have
21:30	bbloom	akurilin: and feel free to come back here and ask about a specific case, it's harder to understand these things in the abstract
21:31	akurilin	dnolen, I think the closest I'm going to get to needing polymorphism soon is dealing with models in a MVC pattern. I might need a protocol possibly for something :)
21:31	akurilin	bbloom, for sure.
21:31	dnolen	akurilin: I wouldn't mess with much protocols - stick with the standard API, reach for multimethods if you need some polymorphism. At some point you might find a use for protocols.
21:31	akurilin	bbloom, appreciate it.
21:31	dnolen	akurilin: well, hopefully Clojure will convince you MVC is not really a great idea
21:31	hiredman	decaf: I don't think optimizing for newcomers is a good use of time and energy, since it is almost entirely subjective and tends to degenerate in to just people expressing their opinion and saying it is good for newcomers
21:31	jouiswalker	trptcolin: out of xterm, urxvt, terminology and terminator, xterm is the only one i have observed with this problem
21:32	callen	Raynes: home sweet home
21:32	akurilin	dnolen, unfortunately most of my experience with writing web apis comes from the Rails world, so that's my point of reference. I'd certainly LOVE to shave off whatever extraneous layers I can.
21:32	callen	technomancy: I survived LA
21:32	decaf	I was just explaining what I meant by saying "we"
21:32	dnolen	akurilin: it's a bit of slog IME, but you'll eventually being very averse to the kinds of engineering decisions and libraries that continue to be popular.
21:34	callen	akurilin: counter-point, I find separation of concerns (often but not always manifesting as MVC) works fine and has improved with Clojure, but what changed is how I compose and "build up" my projects that stands in stark contrast with my older Rails and Django projects.
21:34	jouiswalker	trptcolin: ahh, another interesting thing is that re-entering the repl fixes the problem, but that it returns again after you exit :/.
21:35	callen	akurilin: namely, less assuming of some kind of core (large) framework, more, "here's a bag of tools, do as thou wilt"
21:35	callen	akurilin: but I'm pretty fascist about keeping my libraries focused. shrug
21:35	trptcolin	jouiswalker: yeah, my xterm is still fine. i suspect there's an stty setting differing there that's causing issues. would appreciate a GH issue with details on OS, terminals, & results of `stty -a` before launching any repl (in the working state), and after exiting lein repl (in the broken state): https://github.com/trptcolin/reply/issues
21:36	jouiswalker	trptcolin: i'll do that now. thanks!
21:37	akurilin	callen, same here, I get pretty anxious when I don't know exactly what's in my app. Things like ActiveRecord can be pretty magical and hard to understand.
21:38	akurilin	callen, basically at this point I'm doing the key parts of Rails by combining together little pieces of functionality from here and there, which seems to be what almost every other web application does out there, at least from what I've seen in repos
21:40	akurilin	On the api note, does anybody know if there's any kind of accepted standard for passing sql-like query conditions to a rest api, or does everybody do something custom every time?
21:42	akurilin	So something like a GET on /repositories with "contributors > 5"
21:43	akurilin	What's neat about korma is that it should be pretty doable to map those to korma's DSL
21:43	akurilin	(watch me get sql injected on day 1)
21:49	jouiswalker	trptcolin: it looks like stty -a revealed a lot about the problem
21:49	jouiswalker	trptcolin: erase somehow gets set to something else outside the repl
21:55	callen	akurilin: activesupport always bothered me more than activerecord.
21:55	callen	akurilin: I have an example clojure web app here: github.com/bitemyapp/neubite/ you can take some cues and ideas from there. It's based on Luminus.
21:56	callen	technomancy: do you read the Culture novels?
21:57	akurilin	callen, awesome, thanks, always good to have more sources for inspiration. I do look at Luminus occasionally as well.
21:57	akurilin	Gotta run folks, thanks for your responses
22:14	callen	Raynes: what happened to Refheap?
22:15	callen	oh, Linode.
22:15	callen	balls.
23:38	tieTYT	i was forbidden from writing clojure at work today
23:38	ehaliewicz	why is that?
23:39	egghead	too much power
23:39	bbloom	ehaliewicz: it might make him less fungable?
23:39	bbloom	fungible*
23:39	callen	tieTYT: why?
23:40	tieTYT	i wrote some code in < half the lines it would take to write in java but I was told that my coworkers can't maintain it and, "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"
23:40	callen	ehaliewicz: interchangeability of resources (nb: PEOPLE) is highly prized in the gentry class.
23:40	xeqi	it would lead down to the downfall of the semicolon industry
23:40	callen	tieTYT: to whit, wouldn't that mean firing his lazy ass so the many (company) can benefit from the higher productivity?
23:40	xeqi	and that is too big to fail
23:41	tieTYT	actually he's pretty good w/ lisp
23:41	tieTYT	he was thinking of everyone else at the company
23:41	tieTYT	we already use drools though in some project. I think it's a pretty similar thing to bring into the company ecosystem
23:41	bbloom	right, like i said, fundability :-)
23:41	ehaliewicz	the way he said it suggested to me that he was normally allowed, but temporarily banned
23:41	ivan	ego-protective behavior, assuming everyone else is too dumb
23:41	bbloom	er fungibility
23:41	bbloom	i can't type
23:42	tieTYT	ehaliewicz: no, permaband
23:42	callen	I really dislike drools.
23:42	bbloom	ivan: i didn't say dumb
23:42	ivan	I never implied such ;)
23:42	tieTYT	callen: I don't know much about it
23:42	egghead	I work at a corporate company and we still silo all clojure to internal tools, I still don't get to use it on the larger projects for just that reason tieTYT
23:42	tieTYT	but if you compare the two, both require you to think differently and program in a way that's different from java
23:42	bbloom	ivan: somebody way smarter than me is less likely to be able to understand my dense expressive code than my boring mechanical code
23:42	tieTYT	egghead: at least you get to use it on the internal tools
23:43	bbloom	even if the guy who takes my job is way smarter than me, he would rather i wrote some vanilla boring stuff
23:43	ehaliewicz	tieTYT: write clojure code that generates java
23:43	tieTYT	ehaliewicz: ha, yeah that'll fly
23:43	ehaliewicz	they won't even know
23:43	tieTYT	now the incident is on the radar, they'll get real pissed if I did that
23:44	egghead	you can very easily write stuff in java or groovy that a future maintainer wouldn't understand
23:44	egghead	seems like they are just neophobes
23:44	egghead	change is scary!!!
23:44	ehaliewicz	tieTYT: but you're supposed to get back at them
23:45	ehaliewicz	:D
23:48	tieTYT	egghead: yeah I agree. I like comparing it to drools. I don't know drools at all, but if I had to maintain their drools code I'd be expected to learn it and wouldn't consider it ridiculous
23:48	tieTYT	where do you draw the line? Am I not allowed to use CollectionUtils?
23:49	tieTYT	the fucked up thing is I wrote teh code in clojure then rewrote it in java (half way). I had all the unit tests in place and it still took twice as long and i'm not even done
23:49	tieTYT	you people understand me :)
23:51	callen	tieTYT: better to beg forgiveness next time?
23:51	callen	ecallen: hello doppleganger.
23:52	tieTYT	callen: That is how I approached it
23:52	tieTYT	i wrote the clojure first
23:53	tieTYT	now i'm off to learn about clojure script
23:53	talios	sweet :) cheers
23:56	tieTYT	i must say it's really hard to find out how to get started with clojurescript
23:56	tieTYT	the "getting started" guide's first paragraph tells you you shouldn't follow it
23:58	bbloom	tieTYT: lein cljs-build is the easiest way to get started
23:58	tieTYT	yeah I'm going to start checking that out
23:59	callen	tieTYT: I hope you like pain :)
23:59	tieTYT	can I use CCW with it? Do I need to use piggyback or something?
23:59	tieTYT	callen: why?