#clojure – 2013-03-29

2013-03-29

00:01	thm_prover	dnolen: Professor Nolen, why is http://hpaste.org/84801 invalid match code?
00:03	technomancy	,(apply merge-with #(if (coll? %1) (conj %1 %2) [%1 %2]) '(["tyler" 23] ["tyler" 34] ["don" 64]["don" 82]))
00:03	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry>
00:04	technomancy	you get the idea
00:04	dnolen	thm_prover: are you doing this in ClojureScript?
00:04	thm_prover	dnolen:, no in clojure, cljs is "list of files ending with *.clj"
00:04	tyler	technomancy: thnx
00:04	thm_prover	dnolen: yeah, sorry about bad var name
00:06	dnolen	thm_prover: lists are special in core.match, they denote some special syntax
00:06	dnolen	thm_prover: dont use () use []
00:07	dnolen	admitted it should give you a more sensible error
00:08	technomancy	is there a gsoc project to fix that? =)
00:08	thm_prover	dnolen: ah, https://github.com/clojure/core.match/wiki/Overview has it under "Special Syntax"
00:10	dnolen	technomancy: heh :)
00:17	`arrdem	hum... fnparse is mucking with me agian and this time it isn't a function of my return values.
00:18	`arrdem	https://www.refheap.com/paste/13067
00:18	thm_prover	does (java.io.File. ...) actually open the file (and thus use up a descriptor), or does it just create a File object?
00:20	technomancy	thm_prover: the latter
00:20	technomancy	you need to create a reader or input-stream to open it
00:21	thm_prover	technomancy: are the following two staements correct? (1) I do not need to manually close it and (2) I do not need to use with-open
00:21	technomancy	true of a File object, sure
00:22	thm_prover	technomancy: great, thanks!
00:22	technomancy	,(isa? java.io.File java.io.Closeable)
00:22	clojurebot	false
00:22	technomancy	np
00:24	muhoo	is this already in clojure somewhere, and did i reinvent the wheel? https://www.refheap.com/paste/13068
00:25	`arrdem	I think I've seen this before... but I won't say for certain.
00:25	`arrdem	no that was core/replace
00:25	muhoo	my brain thinks in SQL, so i was trying to make a function to do f to all values in column y in a "database", can't help thinking of lists of maps as rows in an sql database
00:26	`arrdem	muhoo: I think you're in the clear here.. nice snippet too. core/replace is the only similar thing I've seen and that just takes a replacement map not an update-fn map
00:31	muhoo	`arrdem: thanks. i've been hammocking that snippet all day, finally took a walk to the grocery store and went "oh! duh!" on the way back.
00:31	supersym	assoc keys can't be variables? Key must be integer exception
00:32	dnolen	supersym: you probably have a simple error somewhere in your code
00:32	dnolen	,(assoc [0 1 2] nil :hello)
00:32	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Key must be integer>
00:33	supersym	(defn update-atom [n] (swap! section (assoc @section n 1)))
00:33	dnolen	supersym: somehow n is not an integer
00:34	momomomomo	I've never seen that bot before; that's neat.
00:34	supersym	yes very :)
00:34	muhoo	momomomomo: there's two of 'em, never can keep them straight
00:34	muhoo	one is , the other is &&, i think.
00:34	momomomomo	haha, I like it.
00:35	momomomomo	This weekend is the weekend! Only a few projects to work on, and I'll for sure (hopefully) have some time to finally crack open a clojure book
00:36	supersym	weird (update-atom 3) is an integer I think
00:36	dnolen	supersym: your swap! is wrong
00:36	dnolen	,(doc swap!)
00:36	clojurebot	"([atom f] [atom f x] [atom f x y] [atom f x y & ...]); Atomically swaps the value of atom to be: (apply f current-value-of-atom args). Note that f may be called multiple times, and thus should be free of side effects. Returns the value that was swapped in."
00:37	supersym	ah
00:37	dnolen	supersym: you don't need those parens, not deref of section
00:37	dnolen	s/not/nor
00:37	supersym	parens did it
00:37	dnolen	(swap! section assoc n 1)
00:37	supersym	thanks m8!
00:37	dnolen	supersym: make sure to remove @section too
00:40	supersym	riiight... how did I get that wrong. Cue to get to bed
00:41	supersym	thanks a bunch for the insights/aid
00:58	augustl	looking for some tips on how to do websockets from a Clojure app. Thinking I'll just deploy with java -jar. I've used Faye with Node.js before, and it seems it should work fine with the comet.d Java lib. Any other suggestions?
00:59	augustl	s/websockets/websockets with xhr fallback/
00:59	`arrdem	so what's the difference between next and rest?
01:01	amalloy	&((juxt next rest) [1])
01:01	lazybot	⇒ [nil ()]
01:01	`arrdem	feh ok
01:01	`arrdem	cheers amalloy
01:02	dnolen	`arrdem: rest can be lazy, next isn't
01:03	`arrdem	that makes more sense. thanks dnolen.
01:27	`arrdem	maybe-m just escapes at the first nil return value, right?
01:31	amalloy	depends whose implementation of maybe-m, `arrdem. that's what algo.monads does, but that's breaking the monad laws: using nil for Nothing means it's impossible to represent things like Maybe Maybe Int
01:33	`arrdem	amalloy: okay.. I think I understand that but I sure don't grok it.
01:33	SegFaultAX	`arrdem: Are you just curious about monads or are you trying to do something in particular?
01:34	`arrdem	SegFaultAX: so at the moment I'm trying to trace a bug that's somewhere between Factual/fnparse and monads since I seem to be able to reproduce it no matter what the return values from my code are.
01:35	`arrdem	however my monad-foo is weak and I need to understand them it seems before I can really follow what's going on under the covers here.
01:36	`arrdem	that said it's 0035 and this project was due at 0000 so I may just hit the sack and look at this again after I get 8.
01:36	SegFaultAX	`arrdem: Clojure is probably a less than ideal language to learn about Monads in. May I suggest this: http://blog.sigfpe.com/2006/08/you-could-have-invented-monads-and.html
01:37	SegFaultAX	`arrdem: The material is not necessarily to Haskell and the introduction is sufficient to get you started assuming you already have a solid understanding of type system fundamentals.
01:40	tomoj	consider a protocol fn which returns either another object of the same type as `this`, or nil
01:40	tomoj	can we eliminate truth calls in some other way than (if (nil? (f this)) ...) ?
01:42	tomoj	..if you tag it boolean, it will be marked as a safe test, and it will actually be safe, even though it's not boolean?
01:42	tomoj	s/protocol//
01:43	tomoj	looks like the 'seq tag has a closer meaning
01:43	SegFaultAX	tomoj: Why not just (if (f this) ...)
01:44	SegFaultAX	tomoj: nil is false in a boolean context.
01:44	tomoj	background: in cljs, (if x y z) emits a call (cljs.core/truth_ x) if x is not known to be safe to put directly in a JS if test
01:45	SegFaultAX	tomoj: Ah, cljs.
01:47	`arrdem	SegFaultAX: good post, thanks
01:48	`arrdem	gah 10 to read that? I'm worthless good evening gents
01:48	tomoj	dnolen: would you consider a patch which just adds a direct 'safe-test pseudotag, for use in performance sensitive code (similar to not-native)?
01:49	tomoj	hmm
01:49	tomoj	it wouldn't really be similar to not-native though, because I'd be tagging my public api functions 'safe-test
02:05	ivan	are there any reasons to have multiple classloaders other than class reloading (in the miraculous case where you manage to lose references to all objects) and tiny performance improvements in initial loading?
02:06	ivan	I guess I'm really asking if OSGi and similar do anything useful than I couldn't do in a hundred lines of clojure
02:40	amalloy	huh? of course there are reasons. for example, clojurebot can run under clojure 1.2 and also have clojure 1.5 loaded for when he evaluates user code (i think he actually does this, but i could be way off)
02:42	amalloy	if there were only one classloader, what class would be called clojure.core$read? does it support #inst literals, or not? with one classloader for each clojure version, there are two classes named clojure.core$read
02:43	amalloy	likewise, a repl would be impossible with just one classloader: once you define user$foo by (defn foo [] 1), you can't possibly change it with (defn foo [] 2), because classes, once loaded, are immutable
02:44	amalloy	ivan: ^
02:46	tieTYT2	i'm writing my first clojure project. I notice most of my functions start with a "let" and declare 2-3 things. Each result is usually passed in as a parameter to the next. The function body usually is just the last value of the "let". Does it sound like I'm doing something wrong?
02:49	ivan	amalloy: ah, thanks. I knew about the REPL case but forgot about about multiple versions
02:49	tieTYT2	here's an example: https://www.refheap.com/paste/b7e696a9b4fc50e03bf00f084
02:50	tieTYT2	does that look wrong?
02:50	amalloy	tieTYT2: there's nothing wrong with that, if you think the names for the intermediate results help readability
02:50	tieTYT2	not only that, it would just be a nested mess if it was all together
02:51	amalloy	IMO it reads better as just (map get-url-to-image (html/select post image-links)), but that's a matter of taste
02:51	amalloy	you don't get to call anything a nested mess unless it has at least ))))) in it somewhere
02:51	amalloy	and i'll probably disagree with you unless it has at least ))])}))])
02:52	scottj	tieTYT2: I suspect most clojurists would write that with no let. If you don't like the nesting, you can use threading (-> and ->>)
02:52	tieTYT2	yeah I learned about threading after I wrote this
02:52	tieTYT2	amalloy: what's your opinion on scottj's comment?
02:53	tieTYT2	(fight fight fight)
02:53	amalloy	shrug
02:53	tieTYT2	actually, I was more concerned about, "You're doing functional programming all wrong!" more than anything
02:53	scottj	tieTYT2: I agree with amalloy :) there's nothing wrong with the lets if you like them
02:53	tieTYT2	and it sounds like I'm not doing that, at least in an obvious way from this snippet I assume
02:55	tieTYT2	ok thanks for the help guys
03:29	cornotahti	,"I worship His Shadow"
03:29	clojurebot	"I worship His Shadow"
03:33	cornotahti	,(print "I worship His Shadow")
03:33	clojurebot	I worship His Shadow
05:07	supersym	is it ok to use functions as values for atomic hash keys like (atom {:player 1 :ops inc})?
05:08	mpfundstein	supersym: thats the whole point of first class functions
05:08	supersym	thats what I thought maybe atom was a 'special case' though
05:08	supersym	sorry for asking the obvious ><
05:08	mpfundstein	supersym: :-) no prob
05:08	supersym	yeah.... me like :)
05:08	mpfundstein	supersym: maybe you want to read the Joy of Clojure
05:09	mpfundstein	supersym: there is a nice chapter about handling such things
05:09	supersym	ah yea...thnx
05:09	supersym	i should buy it :)
06:01	squidz	i'm trying to use the Shoreleave library for ajax calls, but I am getting a 404 not found error for localhost:5000/_shoreleave. Does anybody have any experience with this? anybody know why the middleware isnt creating the routes
06:04	Willyfrog	I probably can't help, as I'm pretty new, but you should probably show the code for defining your server accepted routes
06:05	Willyfrog	I suppose you are using compojure for the server, right?
06:08	squidz	yes
06:08	squidz	Willyfrog: here is a paste https://www.refheap.com/paste/13080
06:09	Willyfrog	you haven't defined a _shoreleave route
06:09	Willyfrog	you have /, but no /_shoreleave, I mean
06:09	squidz	as far as I know, the middleware should do that
06:09	squidz	but maybe not
06:09	squidz	what should I pass as the handler though?
06:20	Willyfrog	no idea :S, sorry
06:21	Glenjamin	squidz: a quick look at the source implies that you're loading the old namespace
06:21	Glenjamin	https://github.com/shoreleave/shoreleave-remote-ring/blob/master/src/shoreleave/middleware/rpc.clj
06:21	Glenjamin	vs https://github.com/shoreleave/shoreleave-remote-ring/blob/master/src/cemerick/shoreleave/rpc.clj
06:25	squidz	Glenjamin: ah yes, I was confused to which one I should use ill see if switching helps
06:27	squidz	so the source with shorleave.middleware.rpc is the newer version
06:50	borkdude	I'm watching Simple made easy. Doesn't Clojure complect the language and it's hosting platform? =)
06:52	borkdude	ducks
06:53	ucb	heh
06:53	Willyfrog	why do you think so?
07:02	squidz	Willyfrog: okay I am using the right namespace now, but for some reason still getting the error
07:03	Willyfrog	it was Glenjamin who helped you ;) as I said, I haven't used that library
07:03	squidz	oh sorry I mean Glenjamin then
07:40	TimMc	hiredman, Raynes, amalloy_: Y'all run sites/bots with REPLs with untrusted users. Would your security be affected by this patch? http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1176?focusedCommentId=30840#comment-30840
07:54	squidz	Raynes: for some reason I cant seem to edit pastes on refheap using the alt+ctr+e
08:31	yedi	recently realized that chinese programmers have to just memorize arbitrary pictures/blobs of text yet some are still able to program at high levels
08:31	yedi	so http-kit makes me happy
08:31	supersym	what
08:32	supersym	they arent arbitrary are they
08:33	yedi	well i'm speaking for the majority that don't understand english
08:38	Willyfrog	you only need a couple of words in "english" to be able to program
08:39	Willyfrog	there are many people with a bad grasp of english who can program (with variyng degree of hability)
08:45	supersym	right
08:49	cornotahti	yedi, well, truth be told, some of the names of stuff also don't really make sense in English.
08:49	cornotahti	And really, if it were Latin no one would care.
08:49	cornotahti	It's easy enough to memorize si for if.
09:05	TimMc	It's not as if langauge keywords even mean what they say in English.
09:05	TimMc	The names are just mnemonics that help you remember/guess/internalize their actual meanings.
09:07	TimMc	"reduce" can make a thing bigger than the input, "map" refers to a bit of mathematical jargon that I've only seen in linear algebra, "or" is different than the "or" we use in conversational English...
09:07	Glenjamin	i don't see how or is different
09:07	john2x	anybody else having trouble skipping ahead through blip.tv videos?
09:08	borkdude	just my opinion: localized formulaes in Excel drive me nuts (my Excel version assumes Dutch)
09:08	Glenjamin	i presume the bigger issue with localisation is fragmentation, rather than understanding
09:09	TimMc	borkdude: That's the worst.
09:09	TimMc	Glenjamin: In English, "or" usually means xor, whereas in Clojure and basically every other PL it means inclusive or.
09:10	Glenjamin	oh, i see
09:10	Glenjamin	good point
09:10	TimMc	Hence the oft-used joke: "Would you like pizza or bagels?" "Yes!"
09:11	borkdude	TimMc indeed, this also drives me nuts, because a lot of the times I don't know if people really mean xor or inclusive or
09:11	TimMc	(among programmers and mathematicians, at least...)
09:11	borkdude	TimMc and if you ask for clarification on the subject, sometimes they don't even understand the difference
09:12	TimMc	:-(
09:12	borkdude	in our building is a sign: Don't eat and drink in the lecture room. Some have interpreted this as: don't do it at the same time.
09:17	jcromartie	sexy music + Clojure programming = weird feelings
09:17	jcromartie	but I am OK with who I am
09:19	jcromartie	the Clojure Programming book really promotes the point-free style eh
09:26	jcromartie	I feel like midje is great but I'm missing something
09:26	jcromartie	are facts really intended to be declared at the top level?
09:28	jcromartie	I think I'm just thrown off by the fact that loading facts runs them, so I feel like side effects are happening by just loading the namespace but that's not what's going on
09:35	jemafeller	whats a functional way to go from ["a", "b", "c"] to ["a", "ab", "abc"]
09:36	jemafeller	I'm thinking reduce left but i think i have side effects there
09:37	borkdude	jemafeller mapv
09:37	borkdude	jemafeller no wait, I responded too fast ;)
09:37	borkdude	jemafeller reductions
09:37	jemafeller	reductions?
09:38	borkdude	,(reductions concat ["a", "b", "c"])
09:38	clojurebot	("a" (\a \b) (\a \b \c))
09:38	jemafeller	oh, neat!
09:38	Glenjamin	,(doc reductions)
09:38	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f init coll]); Returns a lazy seq of the intermediate values of the reduction (as per reduce) of coll by f, starting with init."
09:38	Glenjamin	oh, clever
09:39	jemafeller	but what's
09:39	jemafeller	\a \b
09:39	borkdude	,(reductions #(apply str (concat %&)) ["a", "b", "c"])
09:39	clojurebot	("a" "ab" "abc")
09:39	jemafeller	a reference?
09:39	borkdude	jemafeller those are characters
09:39	jemafeller	it moves from string to characters freely?
09:39	Glenjamin	,(= "ab" '(\a \b))
09:39	clojurebot	false
09:40	borkdude	ah wait, even simpler:
09:40	borkdude	,(reductions str ["a", "b", "c"])
09:40	clojurebot	("a" "ab" "abc")
09:40	borkdude	if you want a vector, wrap vector around it:
09:40	borkdude	,(vec (reductions str ["a", "b", "c"]))
09:40	clojurebot	["a" "ab" "abc"]
09:41	jemafeller	perfect
09:59	jemafeller	perfect
09:59	jemafeller	oops
10:11	supersym	,(defn board (let [field 0 box (apply vector (repeat 6 field))] (atom {:box1 box :box2 box})))
10:11	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Parameter declaration let should be a vector>
10:12	borkdude	supersym def
10:12	supersym	thought so
10:13	supersym	would there be a way to combine key values within the hash-map? like :area box1 box2 ..
10:13	borkdude	supersym use a vector or something
10:14	supersym	(atom {:box1 box :box2 box :area ?)
10:14	borkdude	supersym I don't know what you're trying to do, but if you need multiple values under one key, you can do ##{:a [1 2], :b [3 4]}
10:14	lazybot	⇒ {:a [1 2], :b [3 4]}
10:15	supersym	thank you
10:15	supersym	that was it!
10:15	jemafeller	i'm find myself doing a ton of work inside a let block - is that normal?
10:15	borkdude	jemafeller try looking at ->, ->> or as->
10:15	jemafeller	i mean, turns out almost all of my code is in the let block
10:17	borkdude	gtg
10:17	supersym	duplicate key... hm
10:18	supersym	i get it
10:21	jemafeller	is there a primitive to process a collection over another collection?
10:21	jemafeller	like [1,2,3] and [a,b,c] and now map with 1 and [a,b,c] then 2 and [a,b,c] etc
10:25	`arrdem	mornin
10:27	skelternet	Good morning!
10:31	ToBeReplaced	is there a shorthand function for (zipmap xs (map f xs)) ?
10:38	stuartsierra	jemafeller: Perhaps you want (map f [1 2 3] (repeat [a b c]))
10:38	ystael	ToBeReplaced: clojure.algo.generic.functor/fmap
10:39	mikerod	jemafeller: If you mean you want to apply a list of functions to a collection with map, you could do something like (map (compose f1 f2 f3) [a b c d e]).
10:40	jemafeller	i see.. i kind of did (map (fn (map …) ) ..)
10:41	ToBeReplaced	ystael: not quite, but that is cool
10:41	jemafeller	also is tuple or vector preferred if I want to generate pairs of things?
10:42	ystael	ToBeReplaced: sorry, I completely misread your code :\|
10:42	ToBeReplaced	jemafeller: usually vectors
10:43	ToBeReplaced	,(seq {:foo 1 :bar 2})
10:43	clojurebot	([:foo 1] [:bar 2])
10:43	jemafeller	is vectors the most light weight for this?
10:44	supersym	How would one add a .jar reference inside the repl, ns macro? I know I'm supposed to use leiningen for this (want to play with incanter a bit) but I was wondering if anyone ever does this, if it is a pain...or
10:44	supersym	could be part of the reason leiningingen was made in the first place, i don't know just curious :)
10:45	stuartsierra	jemafeller: Clojure doesn't have a built-in "tuple" type. Vectors are it.
10:48	nDuff	jemafeller: ...since vectors are immutible, they're usable as keys just as Python's tuples are.
10:49	nDuff	jemafeller: '(1 2), by the way, is a list -- and unlike a vector, lists aren't set up for fast random access.
10:52	gtrak	hey, any classlojure guys here? We're trying to use it and wondering why it doesn't do print-dup on returned objects from eval-in-cl, it calls RT/printString.
10:53	ToBeReplaced	What core function does (fn [f x] (f x)) ? (not apply...)
10:53	bbloom	ToBeReplaced: isn't that just f ?
10:53	jcromartie	yeah the value itself should suffice
10:54	ToBeReplaced	(!= (f f x) (f x))
10:54	ToBeReplaced	i need it for a merge-with
10:55	ToBeReplaced	,(merge-with (fn [f x] (f x)) {:foo inc} {:foo 1})
10:55	clojurebot	{:foo 2}
10:55	bbloom	oh misread.
10:55	gtrak	ninjudd: ^^ re: classlojure
10:58	ravster	When doing a 'lein deps', I'm getting the leinjacker-0.3.3 from clojars instead of 0.4.1. I don't understand why this is, since lein-ring is at the 0.8.3 version, which asks for leinjacker-0.4.1. How do I fix this?
10:58	bbloom	ToBeReplaced: i don't think there is any such core function for "call" instead of "apply" in the javascript sense of those names
10:59	ravster	I've already tried deleting leinjacker and lein-ring from my .m2 directory.
10:59	ToBeReplaced	bbloom: yeah i can't find one... first time i've ever had it come up
10:59	weavejester	ravster: It's likely you have a plugin or dependency that references the old version.
10:59	weavejester	ravster: Check your ~/.lein/profiles.clj file for out of date plugins
10:59	bbloom	there isn't really much need for one, since there would never be any advantage over calling the function directly
10:59	ravster	weavejester: okay
11:00	bbloom	thinking aloud: javascript only provides .call in addition to .apply because .call accepts a target "this" argument
11:00	ravster	I don't have a .lein/profiles.clj, weavejester
11:00	weavejester	ravster: If you run "lein deps :tree" in your project directory, is lein-jacker referenced anywhere?
11:00	jcromartie	I hear people aren't wild about midje?
11:00	jcromartie	I like core.test well enough
11:01	ravster	I thought that lein-ring would download the dependencies and versions that it needs too, instead of just working with whatever another lib wants.
11:01	ravster	weavejester: will try that
11:01	weavejester	ravster: You might also want to check which plugins are being loaded in the project.clj directory
11:01	weavejester	ravster: It does, but you can only have one version of a library loaded in the classpath, so another plugin might take priority.
11:02	bbloom	ToBeReplaced: i think your little (fn [f x] (f x)) is clearer, but if you want to 1) support variable arities or 2) be slightly more cryptic: #(apply %1 %&)
11:03	bbloom	,(#(apply %1 %&) + 5 10 15)
11:03	clojurebot	30
11:03	ravster	weavejester: weird. leinjacker isn't anywhere in the output of "lein deps :tree"
11:04	ToBeReplaced	yea or just #(%1 %2) in the single arity case
11:04	TimMc	ravster: lein-ring has a version range dependency on lainjacker :-(
11:04	TimMc	*leinjacker
11:04	weavejester	ravster: I don't think lein deps :tree shows plugin dependencies, so it was a bit of a long shot.
11:04	weavejester	TimMc: A version range dependency?
11:05	TimMc	The result is that you get some pretty weird dependency resolution behavior.
11:05	ravster	TimMc: noooooooo . I get weird vector? (:dependencies ...) errors with 0.3.3, and its a closed issue on lein-ring with the solution of just using the latest leinjacker.
11:05	TimMc	Hmm, now I can't find it...
11:06	ravster	https://github.com/weavejester/lein-ring/issues/61
11:06	weavejester	TimMc: Lein-Ring depends on Lein-Jacker 0.4.1, not a version range
11:06	weavejester	ravster: What other plugins do you have in the project?
11:07	ravster	the plugins are lein-beanstalk, -datomic, and -ring
11:08	weavejester	ravster: Which versions?
11:08	TimMc	weavejester, ravster: Cancel that, I was thinking of lein-guzheng.
11:08	TimMc	https://github.com/dgrnbrg/guzheng/issues/8
11:08	TimMc	...which is probably the culprit here.
11:09	weavejester	ravster: lein-datomic uses leinjacker 0.3.3
11:10	weavejester	ravster: If you remove lein-datomic from your plugins, lein-ring and other plugins that use lein-jacker should work okay.
11:12	ravster	nooooooo, lein-datomic
11:12	ravster	grumble, grumble
11:12	ravster	cool, thanks weavejester
11:12	TimMc	ravster: You should be able to exclude that dependency from lein-datomic but still use it.
11:13	ravster	eye-brow raise
11:13	ravster	nice, didn't know i could do that.
11:15	ravster	will look into it
11:15	aroemers	[A
11:15	aroemers	[A
11:15	aroemers	whoops
11:22	jcromartie	I am really confused about the deprecated fns in clojure.java.jdbc
11:22	jcromartie	why in the world would they deprecate all of the primary functions in the example code?
11:22	jcromartie	what's the alternative?
11:23	jcromartie	jeezus the whole thing is practically deprecated...
11:23	asteve	,~
11:23	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading character>
11:23	nDuff	well, for delete-rows the obvious alternative is delete!, for connection it's db-connection...
11:23	asteve	,(help ~)
11:23	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: )>
11:23	asteve	what does ~ do?
11:24	jcromartie	nDuff: every single fn used in the example code is deprecated in 0.3.0… maybe that's just a forward-looking thing?
11:24	nDuff	asteve: ~ is unquote
11:24	nDuff	asteve: so, if you have `[foo ~bar], then everything but the bar is quoted
11:24	nDuff	asteve: see http://clojure.org/reader
11:25	nDuff	asteve: ...notably, unquote only works inside syntax-quote, which is ` as opposed to '
11:25	asteve	nDuff: thanks
11:29	borkdude	,`~+
11:29	clojurebot	#<core$_PLUS_ clojure.core$_PLUS_@37c9ec>
11:29	borkdude	,`~,
11:29	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
11:31	Glenjamin	heh, helpful compiler error :D
11:33	nDuff	...well, it's a _reader_ error; the compiler isn't involved yet :P
11:33	borkdude	,`~#{#{}#()[]}
11:33	clojurebot	#{#{} [] #<sandbox$eval35$fn__36 sandbox$eval35$fn__36@1336fcf>}
11:34	asteve	this may be a very novice question but why would I want to dereference a function?
11:35	nDuff	asteve: IFn isn't dereferencable in and of itself.
11:35	nDuff	asteve: what's the context?
11:35	asteve	nDuff: http://i.imgur.com/Loc0p52.png
11:36	nDuff	asteve: ...so, that isn't a dereference...
11:36	nDuff	asteve: ...it's an unquote-splice
11:36	bbloom	asteve: sadly, ~ and @ are tokens, but ~@ is a single token
11:36	asteve	ah
11:36	borkdude	,(let [x '(1 2 3)] `[x ~@x])
11:36	clojurebot	[sandbox/x 1 2 3]
11:37	borkdude	,(let [x '(1 2 3)] `[~'x ~@x])
11:37	clojurebot	[x 1 2 3]
11:37	borkdude	argh
11:37	bbloom	yeah, it's (clojure.core/unquote-splicing x) instead of (clojure.core/unquote (clojure.core/deref x))
11:37	borkdude	,(let [x '(1 2 3)] `[~x ~@x])
11:37	clojurebot	[(1 2 3) 1 2 3]
11:37	bbloom	if you actually DID want a deref inside an unquote, you'd need to do something like ~(deref x) or ~(-> @x)
11:38	bbloom	shoulda been ~& or something else less ambiguous :-)
11:38	borkdude	bbloom yeah, I like ~&
11:41	asteve	more novice questions, (1 2 3) is a sequence?
11:41	borkdude	asteve '(1 2 3) or (list 1 2 3) is a normal list, but sequences get printed the same as lists
11:42	borkdude	,(map inc [1 2 3])
11:42	clojurebot	(2 3 4)
11:42	borkdude	,(type (map inc [1 2 3]))
11:42	clojurebot	clojure.lang.LazySeq
11:42	borkdude	,(list 2 3 4)
11:42	clojurebot	(2 3 4)
11:42	borkdude	,(type (list 2 3 4))
11:42	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList
11:42	asteve	,(2 3 4)
11:42	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
11:42	asteve	ok
11:43	borkdude	asteve the list representation is also a way to call functions, so now you are trying to call 2 as a function on 3 and 4
11:43	asteve	borkdude: right
11:43	asteve	my confusion is in and around people interchanging `(1 2 3) and [1 2 3]
11:43	asteve	[1 2 3] is a vector?
11:44	borkdude	asteve yes and vectors are kind of the default for sequential data over lists which you normally only use in macro's
11:44	jcromartie	oops I made a document database :\|
11:44	asteve	,(= `(1 2 3) [1 2 3])
11:44	clojurebot	true
11:44	jcromartie	not one that actually makes any sense, mind you
11:45	borkdude	asteve this is true because = compares contents of collections
11:45	borkdude	,(doc =)
11:45	clojurebot	"([x] [x y] [x y & more]); Equality. Returns true if x equals y, false if not. Same as Java x.equals(y) except it also works for nil, and compares numbers and collections in a type-independent manner. Clojure's immutable data structures define equals() (and thus =) as a value, not an identity, comparison."
11:46	Willyfrog	,(type '(1 2 3))
11:46	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList
11:46	asteve	,(type [1 2 3])
11:46	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentVector
11:46	Willyfrog	,(type [1 2 3])
11:46	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentVector
11:46	Willyfrog	;)
11:46	asteve	,(type `(1 2 3))
11:46	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Cons
11:49	jemafeller	is there any 'finally' in clojure?
11:49	Glenjamin	yes
11:50	Glenjamin	http://clojure.org/special_forms#Special%20Forms--%28try%20expr%20catch-clause%20finally-clause?%29
11:50	asteve	,(type `(1 2))
11:50	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Cons
11:50	asteve	so it's a constant but it's still a sequence, right?
11:51	weavejester	asteve: Cons doesn't mean constant, if that's what you're thinking.
11:51	technomancy	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cons
11:51	asteve	weavejester: that is what I was thinking
11:51	asteve	foolish of me
11:52	technomancy	that said, looking at the underlying classes of lists is a good way to go crazy =\
11:52	weavejester	asteve: It's a natural assumption if you haven't happened across cons cells before
11:58	squidz	cemerick: I am having a problem with the namespace change in your shoreleave-remote-ring library. I was getting a 404 not found error for the default /_shoreleave route, and I found out I was using the wrong namespace in my declarations. After changing it to shoreleave.middleware.rpc I am still getting the error. Do you have any ideas?
11:59	squidz	I can also verify in the repl that the default-remote-uri var points to "/_shoreleave"
12:01	jemafeller	i'm trying to guarantee a return of a resource to a pool.. with try/finally but seems to not work (scope of definition)
12:01	jemafeller	am I doing it wrong?
12:02	nDuff	jemafeller: Could you provide more detail about what you're doing and how it's failing?
12:02	jemafeller	looks similar to this https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/clojure/hsh-H8SxNHw
12:03	cemerick	squidz: I'm aware of the issue, though haven't dug into it (ohpauleez did the ns refactoring, and I'm still using the older bits). There's an issue for the documentation issue (https://github.com/shoreleave/shoreleave-remote-ring/issues/6). Make sure you're applying the wrap-rpc middleware properly?
12:03	nDuff	jemafeller: If you're generating a lazy sequence that uses the resource, that's one ready situation in which try/finally can fail to behave as expected (returning the resource before everything using it is consumed)
12:03	squidz	cemerick: here is a paste of how im using the wrapper https://www.refheap.com/paste/13083
12:03	nDuff	Ahh.
12:04	nDuff	jemafeller: The solution given there (wrapping the try/finally within the let) isn't an entirely unreasonable one.
12:04	cemerick	squidz: that won't work
12:04	jemafeller	nDuff, you mean 2 try blocks?
12:04	nDuff	...likewise, building a wrapper macro.
12:04	squidz	cemerick: what am I doing wrong?
12:04	cemerick	squidz: Look at the compojure example in the doc. handler/site comes last
12:05	nDuff	jemafeller: See the with-api-connection macro; that way, the inner try block doesn't have to be explicit.
12:05	squidz	do I then have to manually supply the route? I get a 'wrong number of arguments passed' error
12:06	cemerick	squidz: Not sure what you mean by "manually". Should be (-> app-routes rpc/wrap-rpc handler/site)
12:08	squidz	cemerick: I dont think I have to restart my server right?
12:09	cemerick	squidz: if you passed a var into the ring adapter, no
12:09	squidz	hmm it doesnt seem to have an effect
12:10	squidz	cemerick: https://www.refheap.com/paste/13085
12:10	cemerick	squidz: you're passing app-routes to the jetty adapter, not handler
12:15	squidz	cemerick: hmm I passed #'handler to it now instead and restarted but still no change
12:21	fantadrink	Hello, I am having the hardest time writing a tiny gzipping function. Does anyone see what I'm doing wrong? (The un-gzipping works on test data, so I think it's the gzipping.) https://gist.github.com/anonymous/f50ea593ac5f13e64a4d
12:24	jemafeller	when i do this (let [^Pipeline p (.pipelined conn) ]
12:24	squidz	cemerick: okay nevermind, that did change something. It seems to work because now i'm getting a 500 error instead of a 404 so the route is now defined. Thanks for helping
12:24	jemafeller	looks like the type hint doesn't work.. is there a proper way to type hint in a let block?
12:25	nDuff	jemafeller: That _is_ the proper way.
12:25	jemafeller	hmm ok
12:25	nDuff	jemafeller: I take it that's "didn't work" in the sense that you're still getting reflection warnings?
12:25	nDuff	jemafeller: What exactly is the call you're getting those warnings on?
12:25	jemafeller	yes.. I'm checking perhaps it's just me
12:27	squidz	Raynes: I messaged earlier about not being able to edit refheap pastes. I found out, that it is becaues I have my ctrl key mapped to caps-lock
12:29	jemafeller	nDuff, well i'm trying to use bare-bones Jedis, looks like when I get a Pipeline it won't recognize 'incr' on it
12:30	jemafeller	example: http://pastie.org/7163515
12:31	nDuff	jemafeller: Ahh -- it doesn't know the type of the %1
12:31	arcatan	fantadrink: i tried your example and it worked for me with no problems
12:32	fantadrink	arcatan: Aaargh. :) How weird.
12:32	nDuff	jemafeller: I don't know the libraries you're using, but if the %1 is supposed to be a Long, for instance, try (fn [^Long x] (.incr p x))
12:32	fantadrink	arcatan: Thanks, I'll restart my REPL and try again.
12:32	jemafeller	nDuff, yep it working, thanks!
12:32	nDuff	jemafeller: ...by the way, I think some of that might be easier to read with doseq rather than (doall (map ...))
12:34	jemafeller	ah! looks like carmine was my bottleneck. using Jedis i get great performance
12:34	nDuff	Hmm. Sounds like something worth reporting to carmine's maintainership
12:34	fantadrink	arcatan: OMFG, restarting the REPL worked. Even though I just created namespace 'foo to have a "clean space". Thanks again.
12:37	cemerick	squidz: np :-)
12:37	squidz	cemerick: just another quick question defremote only supports returning certain types right? I couldnt pass it a clojure map could I?
12:38	cemerick	squidz: anything that can be printed and read should work
12:39	squidz	cemerick: okay thanks
12:43	mpenet	jemafeller: did you use pipelining with carmine as well?
12:43	jemafeller	mpenet, yes. i think i can identify a difference though
12:43	jemafeller	when I use Jedis, and MONITOR on Redis, I don't see the results immediately in the MONITOR
12:44	jemafeller	with carmine I always do see it immediately
12:44	jemafeller	perhaps Jedis has some sort of queue and workers that batch even pipelines
12:44	mpenet	right, so jedis is fire and forget (async)
12:44	jemafeller	i'm not sure.. it doesn't say it is on the tin
12:45	mpenet	it is async: https://github.com/xetorthio/jedis/wiki/AdvancedUsage#pipelining
12:45	jemafeller	perhaps its pool makes for a better performance
12:45	mpenet	you need to call .sync on the pipeline obj to wait for the response it seems
12:46	jemafeller	hmm what the… i've never seen that. I call .exec on the pipeline
12:47	mpenet	both jedis and carmine use the same underlying pools (more or less), from apache commons
12:48	tyler	is there heredoc in clojure so i can do something like (def example-json (heredoc {"foo":"bar"})) ?
12:49	mpenet	jemafeller: aleph redis client works like this too: every command is pipelined and async by default. I never profiled/benchmarked it though
12:49	jemafeller	mpenet, any idea why .exec worked for me?
12:51	mpenet	jemafeller: because it's one of the possible way to use it. At least it's a public method of Pipeline
12:51	jemafeller	looks like it works faster than sync
12:51	mpenet	jemafeller: it makes sense since very often you don't care about the reply when using pipelines
12:52	tyler	i guess i could make a json tagged literal
12:54	st3fan	can anyone point me to a simple ISeq or ASeq example? i am trying to create my own collection for a special indexed dataset
12:55	squidz	is there something like the Maybe Monad in clojure, or is that not so idiomatic? if not, whats the usual way with working with exceptions
12:56	antares_	squidz: there is algo.monads but monads are not used heavily
12:56	mpenet	jemafeller: I doubt it's faster in reality, you just get your thread back faster since it's non blocking, but I doubt it paralelises the calls (using a pipeline would be pointless). If exec does return you the replies, then maybe it's a matter of difference in how the pools are configured
12:56	squidz	antares_: so its not so usual, then what is the prefered way of working with exepctions
12:56	antares_	squidz: start with exploring if-let, when-let and some-> in Clojure 1.5
12:57	antares_	squidz: if by "exceptions" you mean nil values, see above
12:57	squidz	thanks that is what I was looking for
12:57	antares_	squidz: nil evaluates to false in Clojure, that is heavily used
12:57	squidz	no, I dont mean nil values, but exceptions thrown by other libraries, java that is
12:57	jemafeller	mpenet, i'm not sure what exec is then.. googling doesn't bring up a definite answer
12:58	antares_	squidz: then try/catch/finally and ex-info
12:59	mpenet	jemafeller: it seems it maps to a redis EXEC call
12:59	jemafeller	mpenet, that doesn't make sense..
12:59	mpenet	https://github.com/xetorthio/jedis/blob/master/src/main/java/redis/clients/jedis/Pipeline.java#L105
13:00	jimduey	squidz: https://github.com/jduey/protocol-monads
13:00	squidz	jimduey: thanks ill take a look
13:10	momomomomo	Afternoon all
13:11	jack_rabbit	(dotimes [_ 5] (print "mo"))
13:11	hyPiRion	,(repeatedly 5 #(pr 'mo))
13:11	clojurebot	(momonil monil monil monil nil)
13:13	jack_rabbit	,(dotimes [_ 5] (print "mo"))
13:13	clojurebot	momomomomo
13:13	jack_rabbit	cool.
13:17	casion	does clojure have a decent debugger yet?
13:17	casion	besides avoiding needing a debugger
13:18	technomancy	casion: ritz seems to be the best so far
13:18	casion	is ritz near slime level yet?
13:18	casion	I know that's a silly question
13:19	casion	but indulge me please :)
13:19	technomancy	ritz works with slime
13:19	technomancy	and nrepl
13:19	casion	I thought using slime with clojure was passé now?
13:21	technomancy	dunno, it still works
13:21	casion	I haven't experimented with it much
13:21	technomancy	if you need slime features that aren't in nrepl you can keep using it while you wait for nrepl to catch up =)
13:22	casion	still have to use swank-clojure or?
13:22	technomancy	ritz is a swank-clojure replacement
13:22	casion	oh
13:22	casion	I guess I need to look into ritz
13:22	casion	thank you
13:22	technomancy	I think the video from the clojure conj is up? it's pretty good.
13:23	casion	ok, great
13:23	casion	thank you again
13:23	technomancy	sure; hope it works for you
13:23	hyPiRion	Is there anyone here who knows if there is any testing framework for Clojure 1.0?
13:24	technomancy	hyPiRion: there's really just clojure.contrib.test-is more or less
13:24	casion	hmm, video is not up yet it seems
13:24	casion	but I found slides
13:24	technomancy	test-is became clojure.test
13:24	hyPiRion	technomancy: Hmm, okay
13:24	technomancy	hyPiRion: very old versions of leiningen support it
13:25	technomancy	archaeology!
13:25	hyPiRion	Oh sweet
13:26	hyPiRion	Not sure if I can include the :license in the project map anymore though =/ Not enough space
13:27	hyPiRion	Oh well, research time, thanks.
13:30	hyPiRion	oh man, I have to go pre 0.5.0 then
13:30	jcromartie	technomancy: someone was saying you had some opinions on Midje vs alternatives?
13:30	jcromartie	I am curious
13:31	jcromartie	I feel like clojure.test is much more straightforward
13:32	asteve	why would you need to use an anonymous function literal #() instead of ()?
13:32	jcromartie	and most of what Midje does could be accomplished on top of clojure.test through libraries
13:33	dnolen	asteve: #(* % 2) vs (fn [x] (* x 2))
13:33	jcromartie	,()
13:33	clojurebot	()
13:33	jcromartie	,#()
13:33	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval69$fn__70 sandbox$eval69$fn__70@2eb03d>
13:33	hyPiRion	,'#()
13:33	clojurebot	(fn* [] ())
13:33	hyPiRion	,(= (#()) ())
13:33	clojurebot	true
13:33	hyPiRion	hmm
13:34	asteve	dnolen: and what is % here?
13:34	dnolen	asteve: an argument
13:34	hyPiRion	asteve: the first argument passed to the function
13:34	moredogmeat	hi, is there a way to easily print to stderr instead of stdout? an equivalent of println for err?
13:34	hyPiRion	(binding [out err] (println "I am now printing to stderr")) <-
13:35	asteve	%1 is the second argument passed?
13:35	scottj	asteve: first
13:35	asteve	so % and %1 are the same?
13:35	scottj	asteve: % and %1 are same
13:35	hyPiRion	asteve: yes
13:35	dnolen	,(#())
13:35	clojurebot	()
13:35	dnolen	that is pretty weird hyPiRion
13:35	moredogmeat	Hi hyPiRion thank you again
13:35	dnolen	a reader ambiguity?
13:36	tyler	how do you define tagged literal from repl?
13:36	nDuff	asteve: there's never a reason to use #(...) instead of (fn [...] ...) other than terseness.
13:36	hyPiRion	dnolen: Yeah, it's most likely because #(...) expands into (fn* [] ( ...))
13:36	tyler	i saw miner do it in his talk
13:36	dnolen	ah no
13:36	dnolen	hyPiRion: yeah
13:36	nDuff	asteve: Sometimes, terseness is enough.
13:36	dnolen	,(macroexpand '(#()))
13:36	clojurebot	((fn* [] ()))
13:36	asteve	nDuff: makes sense
13:36	hyPiRion	moredogmeat: you're welcome :)
13:37	asteve	,#(str "?" (name %))
13:37	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval246$fn__247 sandbox$eval246$fn__247@dc4653>
13:37	asteve	"?" is input?
13:38	nDuff	asteve: '?' is a string literal, just like "foobar" or "hello world"
13:38	nDuff	err, "?"
13:38	dnolen	,(#(string "?" (name %)) 'foo)
13:38	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: string in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
13:38	dnolen	,(#(str "?" (name %)) 'foo)
13:38	clojurebot	"?foo"
13:38	asteve	ah, so it's concatenating
13:38	jcromartie	asteve: yeah, str is used to build strings
13:38	dnolen	,(doc str)
13:38	clojurebot	"([] [x] [x & ys]); With no args, returns the empty string. With one arg x, returns x.toString(). (str nil) returns the empty string. With more than one arg, returns the concatenation of the str values of the args."
13:39	asteve	,(#(str "?" (name %)) 'foo)
13:39	clojurebot	"?foo"
13:39	asteve	,(str "?" (name %) 'foo)
13:39	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: % in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
13:39	asteve	,(str "?" 'foo)
13:39	clojurebot	"?foo"
13:40	asteve	,(map (#(str "?" (name %)) 'foo))
13:40	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$map>
13:41	asteve	,(map #(str "?" (name %)) 'foo))
13:41	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Symbol>
13:41	kotarak	,(map #(str "?" (name %)) [foo])
13:41	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: foo in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
13:41	kotarak	,(map #(str "?" (name %)) '[foo])
13:41	clojurebot	("?foo")
13:42	asteve	what did map do there?
13:43	asteve	("?foo") is now a lazy sequence of exactly 1 item?
13:43	kotarak	asteve: it applied the function to each item in the vector
13:43	kotarak	asteve: yes
13:43	kotarak	,(map #(str "?" (name %)) '[foo bar baz])
13:43	clojurebot	("?foo" "?bar" "?baz")
13:43	asteve	ah!
13:45	asteve	,(concat ["?moo" "?oop"] (map #(str "?" (name %)) '[foo bar baz]))
13:45	clojurebot	("?moo" "?oop" "?foo" "?bar" "?baz")
13:46	asteve	,(vec (concat ["?moo" "?oop"] (map #(str "?" (name %)) '[foo bar baz])))
13:46	clojurebot	["?moo" "?oop" "?foo" "?bar" "?baz"]
13:46	asteve	bam! learnin this
13:46	kotarak	asteve, rather into than vec + concat
13:47	asteve	,(into ["?moo" "?oop"] (map #(str "?" (name %)) '[foo bar baz]))
13:47	clojurebot	["?moo" "?oop" "?foo" "?bar" "?baz"]
13:47	asteve	the more you know
13:48	kotarak	asteve, it's faster because it works in the vector instead of going to sequence land and then going back again with vec.
13:49	hyPiRion	,(into ["?a" "?b"] (map (partial str "?") '[c d e]))
13:49	clojurebot	["?a" "?b" "?c" "?d" "?e"]
13:49	asteve	what editor do you guys use? I'm wondering if there's a visualizer for vim to ensure I'm properly parenthesis'd
13:50	moredogmeat	asteve: I'm not an expert but I use http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2501 with vim
13:50	JohannVon	Real programmers code with a magnetic needle and a steady hand
13:50	asteve	JohannVon: sure
13:50	jack_rabbit	asteve, I use emacs.
13:50	JohannVon	God, tardive dyskenesia is a bitch, I can actually see my hands shaking if I look at them.
13:51	moredogmeat	Does clojure have a reflection API for java methods and etc or just use the Java one?
13:54	hyPiRion	moredogmeat: clojure.reflection
13:55	tyler	seq? is to [] as what is to {} ?
13:55	bbloom	tyler: do you mean seq? or sequential?
13:56	bbloom	,(map (juxt seq? sequential?) ['(1 2 3) [4 5 6]])
13:56	tyler	i think i mean seq
13:56	clojurebot	([true true] [false true])
13:56	tyler	im too newbish to be positive
13:56	tyler	ah
13:56	hyPiRion	,(seq [])
13:56	clojurebot	nil
13:56	hyPiRion	,(seq {})
13:56	clojurebot	nil
13:56	bbloom	,(map (juxt seq? sequential? associative?) ['(1 2 3) [4 5 6]])
13:56	clojurebot	([true true false] [false true true])
13:56	bbloom	tyler: ##(doc associative?)
13:56	lazybot	⇒ ------------------------- clojure.core/associative? ([coll]) Returns true if coll implements Associative nil
13:57	moredogmeat	ok thanks hyPiRion let me go take a look at clojure.reflection
13:57	tyler	bbloom: thnx
13:57	hyPiRion	,(mapv seq [[1 2] {:one :two}])
13:57	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: � in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
13:57	bbloom	,(map (juxt seq? sequential? associative?) ['(1 2 3) [4 5 6] {:foo :bar}])
13:57	clojurebot	([true true false] [false true true] [false false true])
13:57	hyPiRion	,(mapv seq [[1 2] {:one :two}])
13:57	clojurebot	[(1 2) ([:one :two])]
13:58	tyler	bbloom: im trying to recurse a json object im trying to write something using tree-seq
14:05	tyler	anyone know of a lib that takes a datastructure and generates an image of that structure with graphviz?
14:06	lynaghk	cemerick: do you have any suggestions for how to stub out friend's openid workflow during a test?
14:07	lynaghk	cemerick: i.e., change the openid provider URL in the login form to point to a stub under my control, and have that return the appropriate bits?
14:07	cemerick	lynaghk: that's the long way 'round. OpenID is big. If you've stubbed it effectively, you've just implemented an OpenID provider.
14:07	lynaghk	cemerick: or would jacking into the friend openid workflow itself be a better solution? My gut feeling is that stubbing out the identity provider makes more sense
14:08	lynaghk	cemerick: hmm. There's not a Java servelet somewhere you're aware of that I can just jack into?
14:08	cemerick	Better would be impl'ing a workflow fn that returns previously-captured credentials (or failure redirects) as provided by actual openid endpoints.
14:09	cemerick	lynaghk: Just searching for 'java openid provider' produces a bunch of potential options, though I've not investigated any
14:09	lynaghk	cemerick: yeah. I dug around google for a hot minute but couldn't find any clear examples of what people do to test.
14:10	cemerick	standing up a conformant openid or oauth provider is not straightforward AFAIK
14:10	lynaghk	cemerick: oh yeah, I believe that.
14:11	cemerick	lynaghk: if you have a limited set of options (just google right now?), then just capturing successful and failed responses should be fine for automated testing, right?
14:11	cemerick	I mean, you don't actually want to include the openid junk in your test window.
14:12	lynaghk	cemerick: dunno, that's why I wanted to ask =) I.e., if there is expry crypto timeout stuff going on that would prevent replays
14:12	cemerick	yeah, there's a 60-second nonce in there, but I'm suggesting "replaying" the result of the workflow fn, so that wouldn't ever come into play
14:13	supersym	yeah baby!
14:14	supersym	I love how keys are functions that self-evaluate :)
14:14	hyPiRion	symbols are too, and vectors, and maps, and sets
14:14	supersym	I just so much enjoy clojure programming...its like coming home
14:15	TimMc	hyPiRion: Symbols don't evaluate to themselves.
14:15	TimMc	well...
14:15	TimMc	(def foo 'foo)
14:15	supersym	right
14:15	lynaghk	cemerick: not sure I follow: you mean just stub out the workflow function to return the authentication map?
14:15	cemerick	lynaghk: and/or return any auth map appropriate for the test(s) you're running, yeah
14:16	lynaghk	cemerick: hmm, okay. I'll look into that. thanks
14:16	hyPiRion	TimMc: oh right, in that sense no
14:16	amalloy	TimMc: supersym meant self-lookup, not self-evaluate, i think
14:16	cemerick	e.g. just have it respond to POSTs on the :openid-uri, and the whole openid redirect game will just get short-circuited
14:16	hyPiRion	,('foo {'foo :bar})
14:16	clojurebot	:bar
14:17	aroemers	TimMc: symbols can look themselves up though, I think that is what hyPiRion meant
14:17	cemerick	lynaghk: applying your patch in a minute, BTW
14:17	lynaghk	cemerick: awesome, thanks
14:18	cemerick	lynaghk: now, before I start thinking about interaction workflows properly: what pen and type of paper do you prefer for that?
14:19	lynaghk	cemerick: I prefer pen and paper that optimize for the programmer experience.
14:19	cemerick	lynaghk: nm, I was trying to troll you :-P
14:19	lynaghk	cemerick: in particular, pens with which I can make a single stroke and automatically expands into an entire twitter bootstrap wireframe
14:20	lynaghk	cemerick: it's pretty limited and not composable, but the important part is that it takes me only a few minutes to make a website.
14:20	cemerick	someone needs to do a pencil review tumblr like the speaker-knob-feel tumblr
14:20	cemerick	lynaghk: oh, all wizard-like!
14:21	supersym	amalloy: literal text from the Joy of Clojure
14:21	amalloy	really? what page?
14:21	supersym	Because keywords are self-evaluating and provide fast equality checks, they're almost always used in the context of map keys.
14:22	lynaghk	cemerick: in all seriousness, I mostly use pens that I find on the ground at hotels and other conference venues. Sometimes I go to art schools because you're more likely to score those rad micron pens and drafting pencils.
14:22	supersym	but I see where you'd easily mix up that term in this case though, lookup resolves using itself to return the value
14:23	cemerick	lynaghk: Yeah, I developed a pencil preference some years ago, bizarrely.
14:23	amalloy	well, that's certainly true. "keys are functions that self-evaluate" is even an accurate summary of that statement, but out of context it sounds like you mean self-lookup
14:23	supersym	right
14:23	cemerick	lynaghk: you were supposed to say something like: WTF, just gd do it! :-)
14:27	lynaghk	ping: stuartsierra
14:28	stuartsierra	lynaghk: pong
14:28	lynaghk	stuartsierra: thanks again for your talk last week---I've gotten the tools.namespace stuff up and running with those ideas and it's pretty neat
14:28	stuartsierra	lynaghk: great!
14:29	lynaghk	stuartsierra: I think there may be a problem with the refresh fn, though---if one of the namespace errors out during loading I pretty much can't load any namespaces anywhere until I restart my jvm
14:29	stuartsierra	lynaghk: you can, actually
14:29	stuartsierra	fix the error, then call `refresh` again, but you may have to use the fully-qualified name `clojure.tools.namespace.repl/refresh`
14:30	lynaghk	stuartsierra: no dice---is this something that's fixed on master?
14:30	stuartsierra	lynaghk: can you describe the problem in more detail?
14:30	lynaghk	stuartsierra I'm on 0.2.2. I can give you a minimal case if you want
14:31	stuartsierra	OK.
14:31	stuartsierra	In 0.2.3, `refresh` will attempt to recover aliases in the current REPL namespace after a failed refresh.
14:32	lynaghk	stuartsierra: the problem actually crops up before I've even run refresh---it's just if I try to require an ns with a toplevel exception and c.t.n.repl into a scratch namespace
14:33	stuartsierra	lynaghk: I think I need an example to diagnose that.
14:33	lynaghk	stuartsierra: I get an exception when I execute (ns scratch ...) and then running (ns scratch ...) after that gives me an error like "namespace 'ns.with.original.problem' not found"
14:34	lynaghk	stuartsierra: sure. let me whip up a git repo for you.
14:34	stuartsierra	ok cool
14:36	stuartsierra	lynaghk: Wait, before you do that, is anything in your project ever AOT-compiled?
14:37	lynaghk	stuartsierra: nope, not that I'm aware of, though I do specify a :main key in my project.clj
14:38	stuartsierra	Some versions of Leiningen automatically AOT-compile :main namespaces, even when you tell them not to. Make sure there are no files in `target/classes`
14:38	lynaghk	stuartsierra: yeah, it's empty
14:38	stuartsierra	ok
14:39	lynaghk	stuartsierra: actually, this may be unrelated to c.t.n. since I still get the issue without that on my classpath.
14:40	stuartsierra	hrm
14:41	stuartsierra	I got nuthin'. :)
14:42	jcromartie	do people really use agents?
14:42	jcromartie	I've asked this before I think...
14:42	jcromartie	but I feel like they get no love
14:43	stuartsierra	jcromartie: Simulant makes heavy use of agents
14:43	technomancy	they get frequently abused as "a way to start a thread without touching java" I feel
14:43	cemerick	jcromartie: extensively
14:43	technomancy	or a way to avoid using executors
14:43	stuartsierra	I've used them for asychronous HTTP responses, e.g. long-polling
14:44	hyPiRion	It sounds like a sound way to log stuff, but I've never used them myself.
14:44	jcromartie	I need to cache some things that are loaded periodically from various URLs
14:45	jcromartie	and an agent would seem like a good thing to say (send news-cache update-from url)
14:45	jcromartie	send-off, that is
14:45	lynaghk	stuartsierra: okay, got it. It was a problem with the ns form itself---loading up something that throws an exception will only happen once, and then any namespaces after that will think that they've already loaded the bad namespace up and won't try again. Adding a :refresh-all in my scratch namespace solves the problem.
14:45	mabes	I've used them to write to a csv from multiple threads
14:46	lynaghk	stuartsierra: sorry to attribute that negativity on your project
14:47	stuartsierra	lynaghk: no worries. I don't quite follow your explanation, but I'm glad you found the culprit.
14:47	jcromartie	tools.namespace is my homeboy
14:47	lynaghk	stuartsierra: just that the `ns` form won't retry a failed require unless you explicitly tell it to.
14:47	hyPiRion	Oh right, namespaces may be partially loaded.
14:48	stuartsierra	jcromartie: glad to hear it :)
14:48	lynaghk	stuartsierra: also, just fyi 0.2.3 hasn't been published yet.
14:48	stuartsierra	yes
14:48	stuartsierra	very soon
14:48	lynaghk	cool =)
14:48	stuartsierra	maybe today even
14:48	jcromartie	although it seems to have issues with midje autotest
14:49	asteve	,(map symol ["?one" "two"])
14:49	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: symol in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
14:49	asteve	,(map symbol ["?one" "two"])
14:49	clojurebot	(?one two)
14:50	stuartsierra	jcromartie: not surprising, since Midje autotest is trying to do the same thing.
14:50	asteve	,(vec (map symbol ["?one" "two"]))
14:50	clojurebot	[?one two]
14:50	jcromartie	yeah
14:53	hyPiRion	asteve: mapv would do the same job :)
14:54	asteve	,(mapv symbol ["?one" "two"])
14:54	clojurebot	[?one two]
14:54	asteve	,(atom [])
14:54	clojurebot	#<Atom@e6be76: []>
14:55	asteve	I'm going to assume atom does not mean atomic
14:55	asteve	so what does it mean? :)
14:55	nDuff	asteve: atoms are one of Clojure's concurrency primitives.
14:55	nDuff	asteve: ...and actually, yes, changes to them _are_ atomic
14:55	technomancy	Tom Swift and his Atomic Reference Type
14:55	gfredericks	an atom is a reference type
14:55	antares_	asteve: atoms are atomic references, see http://clojure-doc.org/articles/language/concurrency_and_parallelism.html
14:56	nDuff	asteve: ...atomic and uncoordinated, vs refs which are coordinated in transactions
14:56	TimMc	asteve: You're wondering about atoms in the not-a-cons sense, yeah?
14:56	asteve	"This is one of the most hardcore guide of the entire Clojure documentation project. "
14:56	asteve	hah
14:56	asteve	clojure where cons means construct and atom means atomic
14:57	nDuff	asteve: The dead-tree books cover this well
14:57	nDuff	asteve: ...and no, atom doesn't exactly mean atomic.
14:57	nDuff	asteve: ...(atom []) creates an atom
14:57	nDuff	asteve: ...which is one of the reference type used for atomic operations, but that doesn't mean "atom" means "atomic".
14:58	nDuff	asteve: I do strongly recommend Programming Clojure (for something focused on practice), or The Joy Of Clojure (for something focused on theory).
14:58	asteve	ah, my mistake
14:58	lynaghk	cemerick: does the auth map have to have the ::friend/workflow metadata?
14:59	lynaghk	cemerick: having (constantly {:identity ... :roles #{...}}) as my workflow function isn't workin' (nil response)
14:59	nDuff	asteve: ...in particular, IMHO, The Joy of Clojure has a gentler introduction to the concepts behind Clojure's concurrency model than what that page has.
14:59	cemerick	lynaghk: it needs :type ::friend/auth meta
14:59	cemerick	the ::friend/workflow meta is merely informative IIRC
15:00	asteve	nDuff: ok, I've got a lot of time for reading next week so I'll pick it up
15:00	asteve	thanks
15:00	lynaghk	cemerick: okay, cool. So I should use the `make-auth` fn in friend.workflows
15:00	cemerick	lynaghk: yeah, probably easier
15:01	nDuff	Err, sorry -- the focused-on-practice book I meant to recommend was Clojure Programming [http://www.clojurebook.com/], not Programming Clojure.
15:02	tieTYT	when should I decide to use comp vs expression threading?
15:02	antares_	asteve: not sure I understand your remark
15:03	antares_	asteve: you expected atom to mean something else?
15:03	jcromartie	tieTYT: it is a style decision, sometimes it seems cleaner one way or another
15:03	jcromartie	tieTYT: you can go way overboard with comp and partial, but sometimes it's the right tool for the job
15:04	tieTYT	i see
15:04	jcromartie	,(map (partial str "prefix-") [1 2 3])
15:04	clojurebot	("prefix-1" "prefix-2" "prefix-3")
15:05	jcromartie	is clean, but not shorter than #(str "prefix-" %)
15:05	gfredericks	partial would be useful if it were a single character long
15:05	hyPiRion	Then again, (partial str "prefix-") is exactly the same as #(str "prefix-" %).
15:05	hyPiRion	isn't*
15:06	jcromartie	not exactly, no
15:06	hyPiRion	,(map (partial str "prefix-") [1 2 3] [:a :b :c]) ; Useful in certain contexts
15:06	clojurebot	("prefix-1:a" "prefix-2:b" "prefix-3:c")
15:06	jcromartie	sexy!
15:06	jcromartie	comp/partial always win when it's variable arity
15:06	Apage43	,(for [n [1 2 3]] (str "prefix-" n))
15:06	clojurebot	("prefix-1" "prefix-2" "prefix-3")
15:07	Apage43	is still shorter than the original partial
15:07	jcromartie	but the original question was about vs -> and ->>
15:07	jcromartie	and we failed completely to address that
15:07	hyPiRion	which is now totally derailed
15:07	hyPiRion	yeah
15:08	tieTYT	that's ok, i learned other things
15:09	jcromartie	,(->> [500 600 700] (map str) (map reverse) (apply str))
15:09	clojurebot	"(\\0 \\0 \\5)(\\0 \\0 \\6)(\\0 \\0 \\7)"
15:09	jcromartie	not quite what I had in mind
15:09	jcromartie	,(->> [500 600 700] (map str) (map reverse) (map #(apply str %)))
15:09	clojurebot	("005" "006" "007")
15:09	lynaghk	cemerick: ah, (constantly ...) doesn't work because it'll put you into a redirect loop. You need to check the uri in the workflow fn and only return an auth map once. in this case, just returning an auth map when the user hits "/openid".
15:09	jcromartie	,(map (comp (partial apply str) reverse str) [500 600 700])
15:09	clojurebot	("005" "006" "007")
15:10	Apage43	,(map #(->> % str reverse (apply str)) [500 600 700])
15:10	clojurebot	("005" "006" "007")
15:10	hyPiRion	,(for [v [500 600 700]] (->> v str reverse (apply str)))
15:10	clojurebot	("005" "006" "007")
15:11	jcromartie	too many ways to do one thing !
15:12	Apage43	For me it comes down to what seems like a nicer way to read what's going on. ->/->> read to me as "take x, then do f to it, then do g to it"
15:12	jcromartie	if you were going to use a Java method or constructor, then you would have to use threading
15:12	Apage43	I read comp as "f of g of x"
15:12	jcromartie	threading macros*
15:12	danneu	"too many ways to do one thing" <- from whence idioms are born
15:12	hyPiRion	hm, is there no function which takes a seq of chars and return a string?
15:12	jcromartie	danneu: "I propose a new unified way!"
15:12	jcromartie	now there are n + 1 ways :)
15:12	jcromartie	hyPiRion: apply str, no?
15:13	jcromartie	(apply str (seq "asdf"))
15:13	jcromartie	,(apply str (seq "asdf"))
15:13	clojurebot	"asdf"
15:13	hyPiRion	jcromartie: yeah, but that's using apply.
15:13	jcromartie	(partial apply str) :)
15:13	jcromartie	now it's a function :P
15:13	cemerick	lynaghk: Yeah, the workflow fn is still a handler (and so needs to match only appropriate routes, etc). Sorry, glossed over the `constantly` in your previous msg.
15:13	hyPiRion	,(clojure.string/join "" (seq "asdf")) ; I suppose
15:13	clojurebot	"asdf"
15:14	jcromartie	,(clojure.string/join (seq "asdf"))
15:14	clojurebot	"asdf"
15:14	jcromartie	we have a winner
15:14	hyPiRion	oh bleh
15:14	hyPiRion	today I learned.
15:14	hyPiRion	(inc jcromartie)
15:14	lazybot	⇒ 3
15:14	jcromartie	3… dang
15:14	jcromartie	I gotta get cracking
15:15	lynaghk	cemerick: thanks for the tips---this approach is working great. Maybe after it's running for a few months I'll factor all of this stuff out into some real docs+example repos.
15:15	zerokarmaleft	hyperion: clojure.string/join just does (apply str coll)
15:15	cemerick	lynaghk: PR's welcome for concrete use cases in friend-demo
15:15	lynaghk	cemerick: will keep that in mind.
15:16	danneu	(map (comp join reverse str) [500 600 700])
15:16	hyPiRion	zerokarmaleft: oh, I see why now
15:17	hyPiRion	apply str [...] needs to only read two items to know what to dispatch on
15:17	hyPiRion	and it's using a stringbuilder under the covers, so apply str isn't that bad.
15:17	tieTYT	Apage43: isn't threading more like "take x, then do f to it, then take that and do g to it"?
15:18	hyPiRion	tieTYT: yeah, that's correct
15:18	hyPiRion	Let me find a good example (if I have any)
15:19	hyPiRion	https://www.refheap.com/paste/13090 <- example from actual code I have
15:20	tieTYT	that looks clean
15:20	tieTYT	why all the parens? Those are optional right?
15:20	tieTYT	if you're just passing one param total
15:21	hyPiRion	yeah, they are optional, I just want to indent properly
15:21	tieTYT	eg: showdown doesn't need the parens
15:21	tieTYT	oh ok
15:21	hyPiRion	It's just a matter of preference, I guess.
15:28	st3fan	does anyone know a project that implements ASeq?
15:28	hyPiRion	st3fan: I suppose you mean ISeq?
15:29	hyPiRion	Well, Clojure does anyway
15:35	amalloy	hyPiRion: why :on-turn instead of just :turn or [:on :turn] or something? it seems like you lose the connection between turn-card and turn-betting, for no real gain
15:38	tomoj	is that CPS'd or are all the players bots?
15:38	tomoj	or neither
15:39	hyPiRion	tomoj: depends, all players may be bots, but may have people in the game too
15:40	hyPiRion	amalloy: because it reads better, and because it doesn't really matter in the rest of the code
15:41	hyPiRion	Perhaps I could've done :on :turn, but well
15:41	tomoj	so just block in that function on their responses
15:42	hyPiRion	tomoj: yeah
15:42	jayunit100	hmm Could not locate clojure/tools/logging__init.class or clojure/tools/logging.clj on classpath: <-- isn't this standard in clojure? or is there a lein dep i need to add .
15:43	__zero	Is there any way to limit the number of threads launched by calling future?
15:43	__zero	(I don't know if what I'm asking actually makes sense)
15:44	stuartsierra	__zero: future uses the same thread pool as send-off
15:45	stuartsierra	You can change that to a thread pool with a maximum size with `clojure.core/set-agent-send-off-executor!`
15:45	amalloy	jayunit100: no, it's in the clojure.tools.logging project
15:45	jayunit100	[org.clojure/tools.logging "0.2.6"] <-- thanks
15:46	__zero	stuartsierra: thanks i'll look that up
15:53	jcromartie	isanybody from Prismatic here?
15:56	jayunit100	is there a way at the repl to see what is available in the "clojure.tools.logging" namespace? sorry… forgot some clojure
15:57	stuartsierra	jayunit100: clojure.repl/dir
16:00	jayunit100	stuartsierra: ah thanks thats a really important trick
16:02	stuartsierra	You're welcome.
16:02	supersym	weet
16:02	supersym	*sweet even
16:03	rads	I'm trying to get set up with the project at https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild/tree/master/example-projects/simple
16:03	rads	it doesn't seem like my server files are reloading when I change them
16:03	rads	is there something more I need to do to make that work?
16:05	jayunit100	ok - so I've got the lib working in "lein test", but for some reason the (use *) directive fails in the "lein repl" . https://gist.github.com/jayunit100/5273274 <-- am i doing something crazy here?
16:05	hyPiRion	jayunit100: you need a ' in front of the vector
16:06	hyPiRion	,(use '[clojure.string :only ()]) ;; example
16:06	clojurebot	nil
16:06	jayunit100	gotcha thanks
16:12	Raynes	That's a feature.
16:12	cztomsik	is it possible to filter collection using predicate taking two parameters? filtered item and last successfully tested item?
16:13	hyPiRion	cztomsik: last successfully tested item?
16:14	hyPiRion	Elaborate on that one.
16:14	mpenet	anyone knows how to pass optional params to carmine such as limit, withscores etc?
16:15	cztomsik	to turn [1 2 3 1 4] into [1 2 3 4] (testing if next item is bigger than previous one)
16:15	mpenet	probably just as strings + value, but I am not 100% sure
16:15	mpenet	ex for zrevrangebyscore
16:15	cdh473	cztomsik: afaik, there isn't a core function for that
16:15	rads	does anyone have an example of a compojure project that does automatic reloading?
16:15	cztomsik	previous == previous which was bigger last time :)
16:15	TimMc	cztomsik: I think I'd go straight to loop/recur for that.
16:15	hyPiRion	well, if you're happy with not being lazy:
16:15	cdh473	you can definitely roll your own though
16:16	weavejester	rads: If you're using lein-ring, that will handle it automatically for you
16:16	cztomsik	I'd like to not solve it in terms of recursion
16:16	rads	does it matter if I'm using clojurescript, thus my server files are in src-clj, not src?
16:17	weavejester	rads: Not with the very latest lein-ring
16:17	cztomsik	but i am not sure if it is solvable otherwise :)
16:18	hyPiRion	,(let [v [1 2 3 1 2 4]] (reduce (fn [a b] (if (< (peek a) b) (conj a b) a)) (-> v (get 0) vector) v))
16:18	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4]
16:18	rads	weavejester: aha, that was it, my lein-ring was outdated
16:18	rads	the example project from lein-cljsbuild is very out of date
16:19	rads	ty
16:19	cztomsik	hyPiRion: how about feeding it with range?
16:20	hyPiRion	cztomsik: well, this one isn't lazy, so that would bork stuff
16:20	hyPiRion	You'd have to make a lazy-seq function then.
16:20	cztomsik	yep, anyway thx - I think the best I can invent here is lazy-seq :)
16:21	cztomsik	hyPiRion: thx, I am still quite new to this :)
16:21	hyPiRion	np
16:23	hyPiRion	oh, might be valuable to know that you could do ##(let [foo (fn f [x] (if (zero? x) x (f (dec x))))] (foo 10))
16:23	lazybot	⇒ 0
16:23	hyPiRion	the (fn f [...] part
16:24	cztomsik	hyPiRion: self-referencing?
16:31	rads	has anyone worked with the git api using clojure?
16:31	rads	it looks like there are no bindings for libgit2 for java
16:32	cdh473	http://www.autismgames.com.au/game_eyecontact.html
16:33	cdh473	crap
16:33	cdh473	that was the wrong channel, excuse me
16:37	dnolen	,(let [v '(1 2 3 1 4)] (first (reduce (fn [[xs l] x] (if (< x l) [xs l] [(conj xs x) x])) [[] (first v)] v)))
16:37	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4]
17:01	gynna	http://xeroticmomentsx.blogspot.com/2013/03/amateurgallery.html
17:02	Raynes	I guess if you read the URL it is fairly obvious that that link is NSFW, but I'll go ahead and put this here anyways.
17:02	stuartsierra	Probably full of malware too.
17:03	Raynes	It's full of boobs, mostly.
17:03	Raynes	I unfortunately did not read the link before clicking it.
17:03	rboyd	you're fired
17:07	rboyd	http://michaeldrogalis.tumblr.com/post/46560874730/beautiful-separation-of-concerns
17:07	rboyd	"I was going to write a nice narrative about how I wrote some beautiful code, but I’m just going to show it to you."
17:08	rboyd	I'm trying to imagine how beautiful the code would have to be in order for that soundbite to not rub me the wrong way
17:10	nDuff	That _is_ actually pretty awesome.
17:15	tieTYT	i don't get how this works
17:15	tieTYT	that link
17:15	tieTYT	ohh, there's no def(n)
17:15	tieTYT	so it just runs that code when you require it
17:19	tomoj	it seems pretty obvious to me that "simply don’t require dire-example.logging!" is not an acceptable answer
17:22	mjg123	Anyone know if it's possible to use something like (read-line) to get user input in light-table?
17:29	ravster	how do I get a printout of all liberator resources for a request? with their values?
17:32	`arrdem	what happened to #clojure....
17:33	`arrdem	these links I don't even
17:33	ravster	`arrdem: ?
17:34	`arrdem	my scrollback shows Raynes and cdh473 posting random stuff. anyway.
17:34	Raynes	I didn't post anything
17:35	`arrdem	anyone tried to fake a goto in clojure?
17:35	Raynes	I hope not.
17:35	cdh473	`arrdem: hmm? i made an accidental post to a site, just because i was in the wrong channel
17:35	amalloy	$google lambda the ultimate goto
17:35	lazybot	[The Original 'Lambda Papers' by Guy Steele and Gerald Sussman] http://library.readscheme.org/page1.html
17:35	`arrdem	amalloy: relax I know this is evil
17:36	Raynes	Dude, you're getting people way mixed up.
17:36	amalloy	why would i need to relax? i linked you to a paper
17:36	Raynes	amalloy: He thought you were me, I think.
17:37	`arrdem	Raynes no I'm just insane. all is well.
17:37	brain_shim_	heyo
17:37	`arrdem	amalloy: thanks for the link, those papers are in my to read stack but I forgot about em
17:38	mjg123	What options do I have for teaching clojure to a group of 20-ish people? Not going to have reliable internet so I'd like some easy self-contained repl or ide to work with.
17:38	brain_shim_	If I have a LazySeq, and it looks like a hash map, how do I return only values that match a specific key?
17:39	brain_shim_	Like I have a big list of :text and :href, and I only want the :href
17:39	`arrdem	brain_shim_ filter?
17:39	`arrdem	,(doc filter)
17:39	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of the items in coll for which (pred item) returns true. pred must be free of side-effects."
17:39	brain_shim_	gracias
17:41	`arrdem	I was just curious.. my compiler builds to a GOTO based IR and it'd be humorus if I could directly evaluate it in Clojure since it's already almost valid clisp
17:41	`arrdem	s/clisp/cl ; before someone else points it out
17:41	supersym	ahhh... tech rush of good music and programming Clojure :)
17:41	supersym	floats away to turn op teh vol
17:42	`arrdem	supersym: share ze gud stuff my track just ended
17:43	supersym	I'm actually making my first youtube lists :P
17:44	supersym	http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLxz13xdIVCTbte5elY5f_sCgMVFDdweas
17:44	supersym	a bit nostalgic but great dance tunes :)
17:45	`arrdem	(inc supersym)
17:45	lazybot	⇒ 1
17:46	supersym	:D
17:49	aaelony	if I use Compojure in a project and start up with lein ring server-headless, can can I connect via repl and make live changes, or do I need to (use or) require clojure.tools.nrepl.server in my project?
17:50	technomancy	aaelony: better to launch with lein repl and run a jetty from inside it
17:50	aaelony	technomancy: I'm unfamiliar, can you recommend a good link to read up?
17:51	hyPiRion	aaelony: not sure if this is what you want, but lein ring server-headless listens to changes in the source files, and would reload them if needed
17:51	aaelony	by run a jetty inside, that is a function call to jetty ?
17:51	technomancy	aaelony: yeah, lemme find a link
17:51	`arrdem	a while ago I answered some guy's question here about how to embed a port-bound repl in an application. Is that something anyone's ever seen done seriously?
17:52	technomancy	aaelony: https://github.com/technomancy/syme/blob/master/src/syme/web.clj#L139
17:52	aaelony	hyPiRion: yes, that is really awesome. I'd like to continue to test out new things though while its live though...
17:52	hyPiRion	aaelony: ah, right
17:52	aaelony	things that might break
17:52	aaelony	:)
17:52	aaelony	;)
17:53	aaelony	technomancy: that's awesome, thanks for the link :)
17:54	technomancy	aaelony: yeah, I basically never use lein ring; I much prefer the primacy of the repl
17:54	technomancy	it reloads when you tell it to vs some imperfect heuristic of file-watching
17:55	brain_shim_	how can i retrieve a key from a PersistentArrayMap?
17:55	brain_shim_	like the value of that particular key
17:55	aaelony	honestly, I'm looking to read up on examples to do it with nrepl but a bit confused as to where the use cases are and how they match up with what I want ...
17:56	`arrdem	brain_shim_: get or treat the map as a function with the key as an argument
17:56	aaelony	reloads on demand are exactly what I want.
17:56	`arrdem	or if you have a keyword key then you can make it the function with the map as an arg
17:56	aaelony	on demand meaning "when you tell it"
17:57	brain_shim_	`arrdem: I can almost see what you're saying.
17:58	technomancy	aaelony: yeah, IMO starting a ring server should be no different from calling any other repl function
17:58	`arrdem	brain_shim_ (get map key) or (key map) or (map key)
17:58	brain_shim_	`arrdem: ah
18:00	aaelony	technomancy: cool. basically I'd like to start the server up (within screen or something) and repl-in (if that's a verb) when I want to, do make changes or try things out, debug, etc...
18:00	technomancy	aaelony: oh, for production?
18:01	technomancy	not so keen on that for production unless it's a toy app
18:01	aaelony	it's a toy app
18:01	technomancy	I'm thinking of that more as a development strategy
18:02	aaelony	that said though, it'd be interesting to hear what people recommend from experience, both as a dev strategy and in production
18:08	amalloy	`arrdem, brain_shim_: note that (key map) only works for keys which are keywords or other similar self-looking-up objects. very handy, and works most of the time, but (get map key) is the most general
18:12	jemafeller	i'm trying to rationalize choosing Clojure over Scala.
18:13	jemafeller	the logic i'm applying is - I can use Clojure for what it is, and for performance - I can always use bare Java (which is faster than Scala in any case)
18:13	jemafeller	so based on that logic, I rarely have a reason to bother with Scala
18:13	jack_rabbit	jemafeller, How about the syntax? Lisp is much nicer than what I've seen from scala, IMO.
18:14	jemafeller	jack_rabbit, it's already given I like clojure better than Scala - the syntax, the developer tooling and the community
18:14	nDuff	jemafeller: http://hammerprinciple.com/therighttool/items/clojure/scala
18:14	jack_rabbit	Well I'd call that reason enough right there.
18:14	jemafeller	i'm just trying to handle my own mental challenges - the "what if's"
18:15	`arrdem	yeow... good link nDuff
18:16	amalloy	I OFTEN GET ANGRY WHEN WRITING CODE IN THIS LANGUAGE. nice
18:16	jack_rabbit	very funny.
18:16	jemafeller	lol
18:16	jack_rabbit	I've been to that site before when considering haskell vs erlang.
18:18	tieTYT	why is there 7% for this: THIS LANGUAGE HAS A STRONG STATIC TYPE SYSTEM
18:18	`arrdem	does Clojure provide any gurantee that a macro won't infinitely expand? I don't think so...
18:19	amalloy	`arrdem: how could it? you can write any macro you want
18:19	`arrdem	tieTYT because scala compiles to static types while clojure is entirely dynamicly typed
18:19	jack_rabbit	I think he means why is there even 7%.
18:19	amalloy	(demacro explode [x] `(explode (list ~x)))
18:20	hiredman	the compile expands macros in a non-iterative way, so the stack will eventually blow
18:20	hiredman	or did last I checked
18:20	`arrdem	amalloy: yeah... just contemplating whether to provide a "real" (infinite OK) macro system inside this compiler or whether I should stick to C's "fake" (one expansion only) macro system.
18:20	jack_rabbit	Maybe we can kill clojurebot?
18:20	`arrdem	jack_rabbit: it's been done before... he's even been rooted before.
18:20	jack_rabbit	Heh.
18:20	amalloy	hiredman: still does
18:21	jack_rabbit	Can you spam the channel with it? I'm tempted to try, but don't want to get booted.
18:21	jack_rabbit	Also don't really want to spam the channel.
18:21	`arrdem	jack_rabbit: not really. I've tried..
18:21	`arrdem	the bots ignore each other so no mutual recursion..
18:21	Apage43	Typically you can only get it to send one line of output per line of input
18:22	`arrdem	and that.
18:23	`arrdem	oh the heck with it. I clearly need a real macro system to implement pascal.
18:23	jack_rabbit	,(map #(println %) (range 10))
18:23	clojurebot	(0\n1\n2\n3\n4\n5\n6\n7\n8\n9\nnil nil nil nil nil ...)
18:24	jack_rabbit	,(doseq [x (range 10)] (println x))
18:24	clojurebot	0\n1\n2\n3\n4\n5\n6\n7\n8\n9\n
18:24	jack_rabbit	Heh. I see those newlines in there.
18:26	tieTYT	`arrdem: so why didn't clojure get 0%?
18:26	`arrdem	tieTYT: probably because you can argue that clojure is staticly typed under the hood
18:26	`arrdem	it's just that the exposed runtime (what we think of the language) is dynamicly typed.
18:26	jack_rabbit	Also you can provide type "hints" for performance.
18:27	jack_rabbit	Which sort of exposes the static nature of the underlying system.
18:27	jack_rabbit	Wait. I'm thinking weak vs. strong.
18:27	`arrdem	so the clojure we're talking about here goes to Java at the end of the day. hence the (:gen-class) stuff, interfaces and IFn etc.
18:28	amalloy	`arrdem: that's a silly argument. go further under the hood, and it's all just registers and RAM in any language
18:28	`arrdem	amalloy: heh I just reached that conclusion when I started thinking about Lisp 1
18:28	amalloy	the language that you actually use, clojure, is dynamically typed
18:29	`arrdem	All hail the Turing Machine, integers are all we have and all we shall ever need. HAIL!
18:30	jack_rabbit	Poor Alan.
18:34	holo	hi
18:36	jack_rabbit	hola, holo.
18:36	holo	hello jack_rabbit
18:37	holo	can someone point me in the right direction to implement captchas? I can't find any clj lib
18:38	jack_rabbit	Might look into a Java captcha library.
18:38	jack_rabbit	I'm sure there's one or two floating around.
18:38	holo	jack_rabbit, I guess that would be the second best way hehe
18:38	mpenet	recaptcha is good enough for most cases
18:39	jack_rabbit	I would think it would be trivial to nicely wrap the most common functions of one of those libraries in a nice clojure-ey way.
18:40	jack_rabbit	I'm excited for clojure to get onto Microsoft's CLR, purely for the reason that I think it'll gain some momentum there.
18:40	holo	I could summon myself to do that
18:41	holo	thanks jack_rabbit mpenet
18:41	jack_rabbit	Any time, dear holo.
18:44	tjgillies	is there a reason symbols can't start with numbers?
18:45	jack_rabbit	Probably makes symbols unnecessarily difficult to parse.
18:45	jack_rabbit	(My guess)
18:45	tjgillies	ah
18:45	tjgillies	(inc jack_rabbit)
18:45	lazybot	⇒ 1
18:45	`arrdem	wow... a recursive implemntation of macroexpand is only 11 lines... I love lisp.
18:45	Willyfrog	many languajes don't allow variables to start with numbers
18:46	amalloy	11 lines?! how did you manage to spend 11 lines on that?
18:46	jack_rabbit	I know in CL, numbers can have suffixes, etc. that modify them, so differentiating symbols that start with numbers from numbers with suffixes would be difficult.
18:46	`arrdem	jack_rabbit: to be more exact the Java definition of a symbol requires that it match approximately [a-zA-Z][a-zA-Z0-9]*
18:46	tjgillies	,(var? 'symbol)
18:46	clojurebot	false
18:47	Willyfrog	I was pointing it to reinforce the parse, not meaning a symbol is a var
18:47	`arrdem	amalloy: https://www.refheap.com/paste/13101
18:47	tjgillies	ahh
18:47	tjgillies	its java thing
18:47	tjgillies	(inc `arrdem)
18:47	lazybot	⇒ 1
18:48	`arrdem	$karma arrdem
18:48	lazybot	arrdem has karma 1.
18:48	`arrdem	Q_Q this is what I get for changing nics
18:48	amalloy	java doesn't have symbols (or at any rate, they're an internal thing that's totally different from clojure symbols)
18:48	jack_rabbit	$karma jack_rabbit
18:48	lazybot	jack_rabbit has karma 1.
18:48	jack_rabbit	cools.
18:48	amalloy	and your macroexpander does something totally different from clojure's. you have to expand the outer form first, not the inner forms
18:49	`arrdem	amalloy: no.. I recur over the sub-expressions first using map
18:49	`arrdem	line 3
18:49	amalloy	yes, that is exactly what i am saying you must not do
18:49	`arrdem	oh I misread your first.
18:49	`arrdem	ah ok.
18:50	tjgillies	(inc amalloy)
18:50	lazybot	⇒ 46
18:50	amalloy	anyway, 11 lines is reasonable if you're actually walking the whole form; i thought you had managed to spend 11 lines just expanding the outermost form
18:51	amalloy	and you should really map macroexpand over the whole expr, not just the rest. eg, what about ((memfn size) (ArrayList. 10))?
18:52	Willyfrog	you can have a symbol like _1
18:52	Willyfrog	it would be weird, but close to "starts with a number"
18:53	`arrdem	Willyfrog: I use that one all the time, the _ prefix is for "ignored value". it's great in argument destructuring.
18:53	`arrdem	amalloy: hum... so really I want to map macroexpand... and just return the result?
18:54	`arrdem	no I still have to do the first lookup and apply.
18:54	amalloy	right. but once you do that, you just map macroexpand over the result
18:56	`arrdem	hum.. so I really want to define macroexpand to be macroexpand of first, lookup & transform on rest, macroexpand rest & cons.
18:58	tjgillies	can i set data readers from lein user profile?
18:59	tjgillies	seems weird i have to keep them in a file
19:07	brain_shim_	If I have a LazySeq of strings, how can I perform a split on "\n" on each of the strings?
19:11	Apage43	brain_shim_: do you want a seq of seqs or just a single seq of all ines?
19:11	Apage43	*lines
19:12	brain_shim_	seq of seq
19:12	Apage43	,(map clojure.string/split-lines ["a\nb\nc" "d\ne\nf"])
19:12	clojurebot	(["a" "b" "c"] ["d" "e" "f"])
19:13	brain_shim_	I love this bot
19:13	brain_shim_	Thanky!
19:13	Apage43	you'll want to require clojure.string of course
19:14	brain_shim_	:)
19:18	tjgillies	damnit datomic has ruined me, now im pissed theres no datalog for ruby (that i can find)
19:21	hiredman	https://github.com/spariev/mini_kanren
19:28	rads	why is there a libgit2 binding for "Chicken Scheme" and not clojure? :(
19:28	amalloy	$google java libgit2
19:28	lazybot	[libgit2: a Git Linkable Library · GitHub] https://github.com/blog/752-libgit2-a-git-linkable-library
19:29	amalloy	(i dunno if there is one, but my point is you should be looking in java)
19:30	rads	it doesn't look like there are any java bindings either
19:30	rads	which is surprising to me
19:30	rads	you think clj-native would be the way to go?
19:38	john2x	trying out Luminus, when I do a login with reddit.clj (https://github.com/sunng87/reddit.clj), how do I save a session of it?
19:39	Willyfrog	maybe with http://www.luminusweb.net/docs/sessions_cookies.md
19:40	hyPiRion	Oh, sexy, the new clojure-mode is more pleasing to the eye in zenburn.
19:44	Bronsa	oh, I didn't even notice
19:45	john2x	Willyfrog: oops missed the topics list at the right. thanks!
19:45	Willyfrog	:)
19:45	Willyfrog	I'm currrently looking at luminus, so it was easy to link ;)
19:54	technomancy	rads: probably because everyone on the jvm uses jgit?
19:55	technomancy	(even though it's not as good)
19:55	rads	yeah, you're right
19:55	rads	it seems to be good enough for my purposes (trying to aggregate the git log of multiple repos)
19:57	technomancy	jgit is fine for read-only stuff
20:03	Willyfrog	time to hit the bed
20:03	Willyfrog	good night!
20:20	moredogmeat	hi, does anyone know how to convert a vector [] to an array of Java Object?
20:20	moredogmeat	Object[]?
20:20	clojurebot	,(let [testar (fn [x y] (if (= (reduce + (filter odd? (range 0 x))) y) (str y " is an square perfect")) )] (testar 10 25))
20:21	tieTYT	CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: doc in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:1:1)
20:21	tieTYT	this is in counterclockwise
20:22	amalloy	(into-array Object ...)
20:25	moredogmeat	(into-array Object [3 4])?
20:26	moredogmeat	thank you amalloy
20:29	john2x	can't i use a defrecord outside of a file?
20:30	john2x	(outside of the defrecord's namespace?)
20:30	john2x	referring to this code: https://github.com/sunng87/reddit.clj/blob/master/src/reddit/clj/core.clj `login` can use the `RedditClient` record, but I can't refer to it in the REPL.
20:31	bttf	been learning clojure for a little while now, wondering what are some of the best libraries to use to host a personal blog? i'm running nginx on my webserver and would like to reverse proxy it to an clojure-run webserver.. ring and compojure look good, any suggestions ?
20:31	john2x	*use it in the REPL
20:33	john2x	bttf: I'm trying out Luminus at the moment (built on ring and compojure). Coming from a Python/Django/Flask background, it's pretty familiar. But maybe it's overkill for a personal blog, I dunno.
20:33	bttf	interesting
20:34	john2x	mostly because it uses clabango as the templating engine.
20:34	bttf	how does clabango compare with hiccup ?
20:38	brain_shim_	I have a LazySeq of PersistentArrayMap's (yay type!). How can I select-keys for each entry in my LazySeq?
20:38	`arrdem	(inc supersym) ;; damn good playlist
20:38	lazybot	⇒ 2
20:38	john2x	bttf: haven't tried hiccup, but from what I can see, they look completely different. all the other templating engines are really alien to me, since I've only been exposed to Django/Jinja. :-/
20:38	bttf	oh ok
20:39	john2x	clabango was such a relief
20:42	john2x	ah, so you need to require and import the record to use it in a different namespace
20:48	amalloy	brain_shim_: how is this different from your last question?
20:50	brain_shim_	amalloy: I googleled until I could phrase it in clojure nomenclature?
20:53	`arrdem	.. and from that you can't google up the selection operations?
20:54	hyPiRion	,(map #(select-keys % [:a :c]) [{:a :b :d :g} {:b :c :a :e :c :g} {:a 1 :b 2}])
20:54	clojurebot	({:a :b} {:c :g, :a :e} {:a 1})
20:55	hyPiRion	of just as a list comprehension
20:55	brain_shim_	hyPiRion: Thanks.
20:56	jack_rabbit	Is it possible to have "static" variables inside functions similar to how it's done in C?
20:56	jack_rabbit	(without declaring them globally)
20:56	amalloy	every variable is static if you never mutate it
20:57	jack_rabbit	But I can't reference x inside a function unless I def it, which changes its value.
20:58	jack_rabbit	And static in C doesn't mean that it doesn't change. It means that it retains its value across calls.
20:59	hyPiRion	jack_rabbit: then no.
20:59	technomancy	clojure has locals and vars
20:59	hyPiRion	just define an atom outside or within a closure
21:01	`arrdem	jack_rabbit: so I think you need to clarify what behavior you are looking for.
21:01	amalloy	my point was that if values never change, you can't tell a c static from a c constant
21:02	amalloy	and since clojure encourages you not to change things...
21:02	jack_rabbit	I'm writing a function memoize-fn which accepts a function and its arguments and either executes it or returns the previous results of that function which will be stored in a map. The map therefore will need to be maintained across calls, but I don't particularly want it to be accessible outside the function.
21:02	`arrdem	are you looking for a global static value, a global but mutable value or a local static?
21:02	amalloy	jack_rabbit: is there a reason you don't want to just use clojure.core/memoize?
21:02	SegFaultAX	jack_rabbit: Why you no use memoize?
21:02	jack_rabbit	amalloy, It's just an exercise.
21:03	amalloy	so read the source of memoize. you'll see what techniques are available in clojure
21:03	amalloy	then you can write it your own way
21:03	`arrdem	jack_rabbit: so what you want to do (probably) is define a closure with an atom.
21:04	jack_rabbit	Okay. I understand clojures, but don't understand what you mean by that, which signals to me that I need to continue reading before I try to implement this function. Thanks, guys.
21:04	SegFaultAX	jack_rabbit: Do you know what a closure is?
21:04	jack_rabbit	Yes.
21:05	SegFaultAX	jack_rabbit: I just want to make sure you're not getting confused with Clojure, the language.
21:05	jack_rabbit	No.
21:05	`arrdem	,((let [x 3] (fn [] x))) ;; closure should work...
21:05	clojurebot	3
21:06	jack_rabbit	But even that would need to be stored globally, right?
21:06	`arrdem	what do you mean by stored globaly?
21:06	jack_rabbit	How would I keep track of the closure?
21:07	jack_rabbit	Except for a globally accessible symbol?
21:07	`arrdem	you don't have to.
21:07	`arrdem
21:07	`arrdem	that binding is constant across calls to the returned anon function.
21:07	hyPiRion	(let [x (atom 0)] (defn foo [y] (do-something-with y) (println "called" (swap! x inc) "times"))) <- example of a clojure
21:07	SegFaultAX	jack_rabbit: I think you don't know what a closure is. Google or StackOverflow might help here.
21:07	hyPiRion	dangit, closure
21:07	jack_rabbit	Okay. Back to reading for me, then.
21:07	jack_rabbit	Thanks, guys.
21:07	hyPiRion	jack_rabbit: ^ look at that example and play with it, it should work
21:08	jack_rabbit	OH! It's a closure around a function definition?
21:09	hyPiRion	jack_rabbit: yeah
21:09	jack_rabbit	VERY VERY cool! I'd never even considered that possibility!
21:09	jack_rabbit	Good then. I do understand closures, I just hadn't considered the possibility of using them in that way.
21:10	`arrdem	jack_rabbit: there's a book on this.. let over lambda. if you want to see evil & amazing things done with closures.
21:10	hyPiRion	heh
21:10	SegFaultAX	jack_rabbit: Now if you do (source memoize) at your repl as amalloy suggested, you'll have a good idea of how the clojure.core function works by comparison.
21:10	`arrdem	I still only understand about a quarter of it.
21:10	jack_rabbit	I'll check it out.
21:10	hyPiRion	jack_rabbit: you can also do (def foo (let [x (atom 0)] (fn [y] ...)))
21:10	jack_rabbit	SegFaultAX, Do you by chance know where source is defined? It's not interned in my user package.
21:11	holo	(inc jack_rabbit)
21:11	lazybot	⇒ 2
21:11	SegFaultAX	jack_rabbit: clojure.repl/source
21:11	holo	(inc mpenet)
21:11	lazybot	⇒ 1
21:11	jack_rabbit	Cool.
21:11	gfredericks	,(apropos "source")
21:11	clojurebot	(source-path source source-fn resource)
21:12	gfredericks	,(map resolve (apropos "source"))
21:12	clojurebot	(#'clojure.core/source-path #'clojure.repl/source #'clojure.repl/source-fn nil)
21:12	SegFaultAX	,`source
21:12	clojurebot	clojure.repl/source
21:13	jack_rabbit	cool.
21:13	jack_rabbit	Judging by the memoize source, I was on the right track.
21:13	jack_rabbit	(You guys too with the closure)
21:14	holo	(inc amalloy)
21:14	lazybot	⇒ 47
21:15	`arrdem	DAE think that should really be inc! ?
21:15	hyPiRion	(swap! amalloy inc)
21:15	jack_rabbit	Must be legacy CL syntax. :)
21:20	hyPiRion	,((`[~@(ns-map((`[~@(meta #'source)]())()))](#(* % %)((+()())(+()(#(* % %)(+()()))))))(*))
21:20	clojurebot	#'clojure.repl/source
21:28	MikeSeth	i think i accidentally wrote a nrepl client
21:30	jack_rabbit	congrats. Most accidents aren't that happy.
21:42	jack_rabbit	Okay. When I do (def x (ref 5)), why can I then do (def x (ref 3))?
21:42	jack_rabbit	And the change is seen across threads?
21:43	jack_rabbit	Is it just that clojure allows you to do something dangerous?
21:43	`arrdem	as C is evidence languages have no duty to protect agains programmer stupidity...
21:44	`arrdem	s/agains/against
21:44	jack_rabbit	Sure, but HLL's often times do.
21:44	jack_rabbit	I wasn't sure if this was the case or not.
21:44	`arrdem	if I just (doc) var, it isn't clear what the multithreaded behavior is.
21:44	`arrdem	however atoms provide multithreaded gurantees so I'd just use those.
21:44	jack_rabbit	So to be clear: In this case, clojure allows you to do something dangerous by redefining bindings to that reference.
21:45	seancorfield	def changes the root binding of x (as I understand it) so all threads see the change to x
21:45	`arrdem	correct.
21:45	seancorfield	you shouldn't use def to change a var tho', just to create it initially
21:46	jack_rabbit	What should you use to change a var?
21:46	seancorfield	you should instead use the appropriate functions for operating on the ref (or atom)
21:46	jack_rabbit	(I understand I should use ref-set to change a reference.)
21:46	jack_rabbit	Okay. That's what I thought. I was just experimenting with the language.
21:47	jack_rabbit	So re-def'ing a binding to a reference is a dangerous no-no.
21:47	seancorfield	In Clojure, you don't change Vars (except in weird situation).
21:47	`arrdem	jack_rabbit: it isn't dangerous.. it's just weird.
21:47	seancorfield	Re-def'ing any Var is a bad idea / weird/
21:47	jack_rabbit	`arrdem, But can't you run into concurrency issues when you do that?
21:47	seancorfield	Mostly, data is supposed to be immutable.
21:48	`arrdem	jack_rabbit: no, var defs are atomicaly synchronized.
21:48	seancorfield	Then you use controlled mutability (atom, ref, agent) to deal with state that really has to exist and be mutable.
21:48	SegFaultAX	jack_rabbit: Vars have a root binding and a thread local binding. Also, see clojure.core/alter-var-root
21:49	jack_rabbit	According to this article I'm reading, alter-var-root is used to atomically set a new root value, implying that def does not atomically achieve this.
21:49	SegFaultAX	jack_rabbit: See the first part of what I said.
21:50	seancorfield	which article?
21:50	seancorfield	fyi, from our production code base... Clojure source 65 files 10834 total loc, 881 fns, 445 of which are private, 123 vars, 2 macros, 17 atoms
21:50	SegFaultAX	jack_rabbit: It is possible to have a thread local binding differentiate from the root. You might also be interested in defonce.
21:50	seancorfield	only 17 atoms in 11kloc and no refs
21:50	jack_rabbit	seancorfield, http://java.ociweb.com/mark/clojure/article.html
21:50	seancorfield	and almost all of those atoms are caches
21:51	SegFaultAX	seancorfield: Not much coordination needed, eh?
21:51	jack_rabbit	seancorfield, Look at the reference types section.
21:51	seancorfield	jack_rabbit: that article should be more clear that its very rare to change Vars
21:51	jack_rabbit	So why have alter-var-root if def does it atomically anyway?
21:51	seancorfield	although the article does say "The use of Vars is often frowned upon because changes to their values are not coordinated across threads."
21:52	jack_rabbit	Right!
21:52	jack_rabbit	That's my confusion.
21:52	jack_rabbit	What does "coordinated across threads" mean?
21:52	seancorfield	SegFaultAX: our mutable state lives in MongoDB and MySQL mostly :)
21:52	seancorfield	jack_rabbit: pretend the article doesn't show you how to change Vars - it isn't ideiomatic Clojure so don't worry about it
21:53	SegFaultAX	seancorfield: Sure, but refs provide coordination where atoms do not. That's why I said that. :)
21:53	SegFaultAX	jack_rabbit: Except for when you need to change vars, that is.
21:53	hyPiRion	jack_rabbit: you know that cores have their own L1(and possibly L2) cache? It essentially means that those caches won't be updated, which may mean that other threads use an older version of the contents of a var
21:53	jack_rabbit	That's not a satisfactory answer in my view. I'll google it if I have to, but if you all have an answer, I'm interested in knowing the answer.
21:53	seancorfield	Simple answer: never change a Var.
21:53	ivaraasen	hyPiRion: just Clojure stickered all the thing, BTW
21:53	SegFaultAX	Unless you need to.
21:54	seancorfield	Clojure's Vars are not like variables in other languages.
21:54	hyPiRion	ivaraasen: nice, seet
21:54	jack_rabbit	hyPiRion, Okay. So even though my thread saw the update to the binding, there's no guarantee that it will at any particular time when I re-def it?
21:54	hyPiRion	*sweet
21:54	tomoj	def can't do it atomically
21:54	tomoj	you would have to read the current value and then def
21:54	hyPiRion	jack_rabbit: as far as I can understand, yes.
21:55	jack_rabbit	hyPiRion, Okay. Thanks a ton. That's exactly what I wanted to know.
21:55	SegFaultAX	jack_rabbit: Always be cautious of people who use words like "always" and "never".
21:55	seancorfield	esp. when they have both in the same sentence :)
21:55	jack_rabbit	SegFaultAX, I'm learned in the ways of avoiding those terms.
21:56	`arrdem	(inc Sgeo)
21:56	lazybot	⇒ 2
21:56	SegFaultAX	I can think of at least one reasonable usage of var altering I've seen.
21:56	seancorfield	I'm always cautious of SegFaultAX ... doh!
21:56	SegFaultAX	;)
21:56	`arrdem	the one time I altered a var was when I stuck a repl port in the back of my server as an experiment.
21:56	hyPiRion	I always avoid those terms. muahahah
21:56	`arrdem	5/5 do not recommend.
21:56	`arrdem	but it did work.
21:57	ivaraasen	seancorfield: nice amount of macros, BTW. I tend to overuse them myself
21:57	SegFaultAX	I was thinking more along the lines of technomancy's robert.hooke lib.
21:57	seancorfield	`arrdem: yeah, actually just today i ran two def's via nrepl on our running production servers
21:57	SegFaultAX	hook-scopes is basically just a ball of var altering goodness.
21:57	seancorfield	needed to apply a hotfix to a function without restarting the app
21:58	SegFaultAX	seancorfield: What could possibly go wrong!?
21:58	seancorfield	we don't run nrepl servers all the time... we start and stop them when we need them
21:58	seancorfield	and mostly try to avoid hotfixes on the live, running app
21:58	seancorfield	but we're sure glad clojure gives us the _option_
21:59	hyPiRion	Erlang is interesting when it comes to that. You can do safe code updates and version bumps without shutting down the service.
22:00	SegFaultAX	And what a painful thing that could be. Especially before rebar.
22:00	hyPiRion	Oh yeah. Without rebar, stuff is amazingly painful. Though I still find it painful, mostly because I haven't mastered the arts yet.
22:01	ivaraasen	hyPiRion: this is the lib I was talking about earlier today: https://github.com/MichaelDrogalis/dire
22:01	seancorfield	anyways jack_rabbit welcome to clojure!
22:01	jack_rabbit	:)
22:01	jack_rabbit	I'm a CLisper, so I'm working my way into the purely-functional world from the mutable-mess world.
22:02	jack_rabbit	purely
22:02	seancorfield	ah, yes, I often forget traditional Lisp was impure in that respect...
22:02	SegFaultAX	ivaraasen: That's pretty cool.
22:02	jack_rabbit	seancorfield, You can write it functionally, but the opportunities not to are too present to avoid.
22:03	SegFaultAX	Well CL isn't really functional at all. I mean, sure you can write it that way, but lots of idiomatic CL is fairly imperative.
22:03	jack_rabbit	SegFaultAX, Exactly.
22:03	seancorfield	back in the 80's, when i first started doing FP, i used LispKit (Peter Henderson's subset of Lisp), Miranda and SASL... plus a little ML... and then developed my own FP lang as an academic research project
22:03	jack_rabbit	seancorfield, You're old.
22:03	SegFaultAX	Strange.
22:03	jack_rabbit	:)
22:03	SegFaultAX	You used all the precursors to Haskell but not Haskell?
22:04	seancorfield	"Lispkit Lisp is a lexically scoped, purely functional subset of Lisp" - wikipedia
22:04	seancorfield	SegFaultAX: I've used Haskell as well, but by the time it appeared, I was a professional C / C++ developer... :(
22:04	jack_rabbit	Haskell is pretty cool. I'm working my way through LYAH, as well as picking up clojure.
22:05	seancorfield	I went from the glory of pure FP to the horror that is C and the hell that is C++... then Java for a decade... then finally Groovy, Scala and now Clojure! Yay!
22:06	hyPiRion	ivaraasen: oh, the supervisors lib. Thanks a bunch
22:06	jack_rabbit	seancorfield, C is pretty cool. C++ isn't bad as long as you can avoid the extreme black-hole-like pitfalls.
22:07	seancorfield	I was on the C++ Standards Committee for eight years so I probably helped create some of those black holes... sorry! :)
22:07	hyPiRion	The issue is that you can't avoid those black holes, it seems like.
22:07	SegFaultAX	From my limited experience with C++ plus the horror storries my colleagues have shared with me over the years, I'm inclined to disagree.
22:07	cdh473	jack_rabbit++; pure FP makes me feel too limited, i need some side effects snuck in there
22:08	hyPiRion	I tend to say I use C with a data structure interface, because that's essentially what I do when I write C++.
22:09	jack_rabbit	In my mildly-experienced opinion, (just an opinion) you CAN avoid pitfalls in C++ if you are some sort of guru. But most programmers writing C++ apps are far from gurus, and C++ makes it really easy to shoot yourself in the foot.
22:09	SegFaultAX	hyPiRion: That's probably a pretty inefficient way to use C++. Why not just use C, then?
22:09	cdh473	hyPiRion++; i end up writing C in C++ whenever i try c++
22:09	jack_rabbit	I just write my own vtables...
22:10	ivaraasen	at least C++ isn't Matlab. just saying.
22:10	jack_rabbit	giant ugly dereferencing bedamned.
22:10	hyPiRion	SegFaultAX: Legit question, indeed. I tend to use it for programming competitions, where quick and dirty is what counts
22:10	SegFaultAX	hyPiRion: Ah, yea. That's basically the only time I ever use straight Java as well. TopCoder.
22:11	jack_rabbit	I've grown to hate programming competitions. Having a clock be the deciding factor in the "goodness" of a program seems completely bass-ackwards.
22:11	hyPiRion	SegFaultAX: yup
22:12	SegFaultAX	I worked on a team that built a cross-platform game engine targeting Android 2.3+ and iOS 5+. It was an interesting experience which probably colors my opinion of C++ a lot, especially since most of /my/ work on the project was on the cross-platform piece.
22:12	SegFaultAX	It was really, really challenging.
22:13	jack_rabbit	How well does C++ interface with Apple's Objective-C?
22:13	SegFaultAX	Most of the other engineers were on the graphics part of the engine. But me and one other guy worked on the device facing native parts.
22:14	SegFaultAX	jack_rabbit: C++ actually works pretty well on iOS from my experience. Of course we were doing something rather specific (game engine) so I can't really talk about the overall level of compat.
22:14	SegFaultAX	But for our purposes it actually was pretty smooth.
22:15	mattmoss	I don't understand why people hate C++. Used it for years just fine.
22:15	SegFaultAX	That's essentially the only time I've ever worked in C++ in a professional context. And if I had to choose, I mightn't ever return.
22:15	jack_rabbit	mattmoss, I agree.
22:16	SegFaultAX	mattmoss: In my case, I think it was more trying to build native wrappers for two relatively disparate platforms. I can't speak to the experience of others.
22:16	jack_rabbit	Granted, I think that maintainability is a big issue.
22:16	jack_rabbit	It seems to me that the older a chunk of C++ software gets, the more bugs develop in it, and the more slowly it incorporates new features.
22:17	tomoj	s/C++//
22:17	SegFaultAX	jack_rabbit: That's just software.
22:17	jack_rabbit	It seems to lack some of the abstraction necessary to build on an existing code-base.
22:17	jack_rabbit	SegFaultAX, True.
22:17	SegFaultAX	jack_rabbit: Bitrot is language agnostic.
22:17	`arrdem	how valuable do you guys think a Clojure implementation not backed by the JVM would be?
22:17	jack_rabbit	SegFaultAX, True, but some languages make it easier than others to avoid it.
22:17	SegFaultAX	`arrdem: You mean like backed by JS or the CLR?
22:17	jack_rabbit	And C++ seems particularly bad at avoiding it.
22:17	mattmoss	I'd say that poorly-written C++ is really bad, but well-written C++ is fine and dandy. I spent a few years doing one platform port after another will few issues (Aside from older experience as well).
22:18	`arrdem	SegFaultAX: sorta.. I've been kicking around this idea for an OS designed to do nothing but run clojure in some sort of micro-runtime.
22:18	`arrdem	where that runtime != jvm
22:18	SegFaultAX	Wee, lisp machines are coming back!
22:18	mattmoss	Let's put a lisp machine on a GPU, that'd be fun.
22:18	jack_rabbit	SegFaultAX, `arrdem, There are already a few OSes out there that are lisp-based.
22:18	`arrdem	that's bloody stupid and you know it
22:18	SegFaultAX	`arrdem: First I think you should build a game where you can do anything. ;)
22:19	`arrdem	SegFaultAX: Minecraft. done. next?
22:19	mattmoss	lol
22:19	jack_rabbit	Pfft.
22:19	`arrdem	that shit's turing complete man..
22:19	mattmoss	Clojure on redstone?
22:19	`arrdem	frikkin z80 in redstone.
22:19	`arrdem	mattmoss: no.
22:19	mattmoss	heh
22:19	jack_rabbit	Yeah, my brother built a 7-bit calculator with a decimal display.
22:20	ivaraasen	anyone care to recommend some decent C++ tutorials?
22:20	SegFaultAX	ivaraasen: C++ Primer!
22:20	SegFaultAX	ivaraasen: Also, bookmark this: http://en.cppreference.com/w/
22:20	`arrdem	ah that brick of a book...
22:20	mattmoss	I'm hesitant to start recommending tutorials at the moment until I see some good stuff for C++11.
22:20	jack_rabbit	Also cplusplus.com.
22:21	mattmoss	Then again, I haven't really been looking, spending most time lately with clojure. And lua (omg).
22:21	SegFaultAX	mattmoss: Probably take another year before the books start catching up.
22:21	mattmoss	SegFaultAX: Yup. Until then, there's Dylan! (wtf)
22:21	mattmoss	j/k
22:21	SegFaultAX	mattmoss: I love Lua! And I hate it. Lua's a great language. :)
22:22	SegFaultAX	Lua is*
22:22	jack_rabbit	It's interesting how fast C++ shifted towards Objective-C once Objective-C started rising in popularity.
22:22	ivaraasen	SegFaultAX: thanks
22:22	SegFaultAX	jack_rabbit: Huh?
22:22	mattmoss	SegFaultAX: I'm tempted more toward Squirrel over Lua, but don't use any of it enough right now.
22:22	jack_rabbit	SegFaultAX, All the new pointer types have been around in Objective-C since its invention.
22:23	jack_rabbit	^new C++11 pointer types.
22:23	jack_rabbit	And a lot of the other features, IIRC, are already implemented in Objective-C.
22:23	SegFaultAX	mattmoss: We use Lua heavily in our game engine so I've worked with it quite extensively. Fun tidbit: I also looked at integrating gambit into our engine so I could use Lisp instead of Lua for scripting our engine!
22:23	jack_rabbit	yeah, gambit is pretty awesome.
22:24	SegFaultAX	Used* The company is now defunct.
22:24	jack_rabbit	I've actually read that you can compile gambit binaries to run on bare metal.
22:24	mattmoss	SegFaultAX: Haven't seen gambit. If I worked on another game engine, I might do Squirrel (lua-like), or some wild genetic mangling of functional and event driven.
22:25	mattmoss	SegFaultAX: Where were you at?
22:26	jack_rabbit	Regardless of the actual underlying dialect, I haven't found a language yet whose syntax I prefer to a Lisp.
22:26	SegFaultAX	mattmoss: PM'd
22:38	jack_rabbit	[]
22:40	jack_rabbit	Well okay, but I don't think I typed that^
22:43	tjgillies	what do you guys use to encrypt passwords?
22:44	jack_rabbit	MD5
22:45	tjgillies	....
22:45	tjgillies	i hope you're joking
22:45	jack_rabbit	:)
22:45	tjgillies	i used bcrypt in ruby land
22:45	tjgillies	but i don't see any bcrypt clojure stuff jumping out from google
22:46	egghead	tjgillies: we use http://www.mindrot.org/projects/jBCrypt/
22:46	xeqi	yep, jbcrypt
22:46	tjgillies	egghead: thnx
22:47	tjgillies	i love that clojure has such every interop with java
22:47	tjgillies	easy*
22:47	xeqi	also take a look at https://github.com/cemerick/friend if you're building a web app
22:48	egghead	ya, friend is great
22:49	tjgillies	ah i saw the friend talk at clojure west
22:49	tjgillies	looked pretty cool
22:54	SegFaultAX	I like friend in particular because in a lot of ways it's a pretty direct translation of warden.
22:55	SegFaultAX	And warden could not be more simple for what it does.
23:18	`arrdem	is there a good way for me to run tests via lein & nrepl?
23:18	`arrdem	google is looking pretty sparse on this matter.
23:18	jack_rabbit	What do you mean by tests?
23:19	`arrdem	if I define tests using core.test, I can invoke them via `lein tests` or such from zsh
23:19	`arrdem	I'd like to do so w/o leaving The One True Editor
23:19	jack_rabbit	hmm.
23:20	SegFaultAX	`arrdem: Check out Midje! https://github.com/marick/Midje
23:20	`arrdem	cheers Seg
23:21	jack_rabbit	(inc SegFaultAX)
23:21	lazybot	⇒ 1
23:21	jack_rabbit	Oh, the novelty!
23:21	gtrak	anyone have an example of coordinating a version number between a dependency and a corresponding lein-plugin?
23:21	gtrak	I'm just hard-coding it in a project middleware right now, feels wrong: (update-in project [:dependencies] conj '[nodisassemble "0.1.0-SNAPSHOT"])
23:24	gtrak	can a lein plugin access its own version number? that would help a lot
23:24	SegFaultAX	gtrak: I like the name of that lib, by the way. Johny 5 would be proud.
23:24	gtrak	thank you :-)
23:25	SegFaultAX	Tiff-an-y.
23:25	gtrak	basically, I'm storing all the bytecode of classes in a map, then I can disassemble run-time eval'd classes
23:25	jeremyheiler	gtrak: I don't see why not. The plugin accepts the project map as its first argument.
23:25	gtrak	the plugin exists to turn on jvm instrumentation
23:25	gtrak	hrm..
23:26	gtrak	I guess the plugin would look itself up then
23:27	thm_prover	I have a string s, which contains xml. What is the correct way to parse s? (clojure.xml/parse s) appears to want a file rather than a string; and I'd prefer to not write out to a temporary file.
23:27	technomancy	https://lein-survey-2013.herokuapp.com/results <- posted a summary of the results to the Leiningen survey
23:27	thm_prover	it seems kind of stupid to go from memory to disk, only to go back to memory
23:27	technomancy	kind of interesting to me; not sure if it's interesting to others =)
23:27	gtrak	thm_prover: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/xml-seq ?
23:27	st3fan	omg -> also accepts partials .. (-> {:a {:b 20}} :a :b (* 20))
23:27	andyfingerhut	thm_prover: Take a look at with-in-str
23:27	st3fan	i had no idea .. this will simplify my code so much
23:28	gtrak	st3fan: -> is syntax, not quite the same as partial-eval
23:28	jeremyheiler	thm_prover: You could use clojure.data.xml/parse-str
23:30	gtrak	thm_prover: clojure.xml/parse probably takes a stream
23:31	gtrak	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/io/ByteArrayInputStream.html is what you want, dunno if there's a shortcut somewhere
23:31	tomoj	&(clojure.xml/parse (java.io.StringBufferInputStream. "<foo></foo>"))
23:31	lazybot	⇒ {:tag :foo, :attrs nil, :content nil}
23:32	tomoj	oh, that's deprecated
23:32	tomoj	says you're supposed to use StringReader, but what if you need an InputStream?
23:32	gtrak	or StringReader is fine I guess
23:32	gtrak	you can call clojure.java.io/input-stream on the reader if you like
23:33	tomoj	oic
23:34	tomoj	doesn't appear to work
23:35	gtrak	huh
23:36	tomoj	&(-> "<foo></foo>" java.io.StringReader. org.xml.sax.InputSource. clojure.xml/parse)
23:36	lazybot	⇒ {:tag :foo, :attrs nil, :content nil}
23:37	gtrak	maybe it goes the other way, stream to reader
23:37	thm_prover	gtrak: clojure.data.xml worked great, thanks!
23:37	tomoj	&(-> "<foo></foo>" .getBytes clojure.java.io/input-stream clojure.xml/parse)
23:37	lazybot	⇒ {:tag :foo, :attrs nil, :content nil}
23:38	tomoj	I wonder if those are different?
23:38	thm_prover	tomoj: do you not have to close the new input-stream?
23:38	thm_prover	or are input-streams not file descriptors?
23:38	gtrak	yea... check out (def default-streams-impl {:make-reader (fn [x opts] (make-reader (make-input-stream x opts) opts)) ....
23:38	tomoj	well close is a noop on byte array input streams
23:39	jeremyheiler	technomancy: The summarized comments were interesting to read.
23:44	technomancy	jeremyheiler: cool; glad I'm not the only one who likes reading that kind of thing =)
23:45	jeremyheiler	technomancy: Also, some of the non-summarized comments are humorous :-P
23:45	technomancy	jeremyheiler: yeah, like the guy who wants me to visit the bay area clojure group, huh? =)
23:47	jeremyheiler	technomancy: haha yeah. and the guy that claims it sets his hair on fire.
23:47	`arrdem	lolwat
23:47	jack_rabbit	`arrdem, must be an old conversation.
23:48	andyfingerhut	It is mentioned in the first sentence at leiningen.org
23:50	jack_rabbit	Good to know, yogthos.
23:51	andyfingerhut	Inspired by the story "Leiningen versus the ants" http://www.classicshorts.com/stories/lvta.html (I still haven't read it despite being intrigued by the story idea a year or so ago -- now is a good time)
23:51	jeremyheiler	andyfingerhut: ooo, thanks for that link! Ive been meaning to check it out, but it always slips my mind.