#clojure – 2013-01-15

2013-01-15

00:20	tomoj	http://www.infoworld.com/d/application-development/functional-programming-step-backward-205105
00:20	yogthos	tomoj: yeah saw that, not very convincing I must say :)
00:20	yogthos	tomoj: it's like an english speaker complaining french is hard to read after studying it for a week
00:23	yogthos	first red flag is in the second paragraph where he says "looping is performed with recursion", when in reality explicit recursion is quite rare as that's what higher order functions are for
00:23	yogthos	also it's hard to swallow the argument that declarative style is harder to understand than imperative where you mix what and how together
00:25	TimMc	"The syntax of functional programming just isn't readable at a glance."
00:25	TimMc	And then he gives Erlang and Haskell examples. yawn
00:26	yogthos	and I don't see what's unreadable about the erlang one specifically
00:26	yogthos	it kind of tells you what it's doing
00:26	yogthos	also amusing is the lack of the imperative counterpart :P
00:26	yogthos	because that's would be so much more readable :)
00:28	TimMc	yogthos: Readability comes down to idioms.
00:28	yogthos	TimMc: it's also highly dependent on what you're experienced with
00:28	TimMc	It's similar to the differeing phonotactics of various languages.
00:30	TimMc	yogthos: Well... to the extent that a Java programmer isn't experienced with Erlang idioms, sure.
00:30	TimMc	I don't know that different Java sources are going to vary too much on average.
00:31	yogthos	TimMc: when somebody knows java and they look at python, ruby, c#, etc. they really can apply most of what they know, and just have to learn a new concept here and there and some syntax sugar
00:31	yogthos	TimMc: when you switch to fp, you actually have to learn new ways to structure code and approach problems, and that's what people find frustrating
00:31	bbloom	the biggest issue is that there is a lack of good functional code bases to go study
00:31	yogthos	bbloom: that doesn't help either
00:31	SegFaultAX	As an Erlang programmer, I can confidently say that Erlang has a generally unusual syntax.
00:31	bbloom	learning how to structure functional code is reaaally really hard
00:31	bbloom	just like learning how to structure object oriented code is really hard
00:31	yogthos	exactly
00:32	bbloom	but you can go read Id's game engines, or take a look at a large java project
00:32	bbloom	and get a feel for what big systems look like
00:32	bbloom	and how they play together
00:32	yogthos	but if you've had years of experience with imperative/oo you forget that you had to learn and internalize all that at some point
00:32	bbloom	yeah exactly
00:32	bbloom	also, it further doesnt help that functional programming has traditionally had a weak model for state/identity/whatever
00:32	yogthos	and then people think the language is inherently more difficult because they have trouble learning it
00:32	bbloom	not saying clojure invented it; haskell has had TVar and MVar and whatnot forever
00:33	yogthos	clojure is definitely more accessible in that regard though :)
00:33	bbloom	just saying that it's one of those things that takes time to bake into the collective conscious
00:33	yogthos	yup
00:33	yogthos	and I find part of it is ego too, if I've been coding for years and I'm an expert why is this stuff hard
00:33	bbloom	oh yeah, for sure
00:33	tomoj	"I find both claims equally doubtful."
00:33	bbloom	you feel REALLY DUMB
00:33	bbloom	now i just assume that i AM really dumb
00:33	tomoj	is that a clever way to say "I have no clue." but sound smart?
00:34	yogthos	and getting past the hump tends to weed out a lot of people unfortunately
00:34	bbloom	and actively seek the enlighten moments
00:34	bbloom	i also think that there is a category of applications, like databases or game engines, or user interfaces
00:34	bbloom	that are traditionally friendly to the object oriented model
00:34	bbloom	hell, objects were practically invented for the sole purpose of simulation
00:34	yogthos	I'm not sure I agree with the databases :P
00:35	yogthos	they map terribly to oo, hence the orm messes :)
00:35	bbloom	sorry, databases != functional tho, more imperitive
00:35	bbloom	execute this command, execute that command
00:35	bbloom	sure, sql is "declarative" but there are lots of other types of databases
00:35	yogthos	but they do tend to be immutable and atomic :)
00:35	TimMc	clojurebot: ORM?
00:35	clojurebot	Object-Relational Mappers are the Vietnam of computer science.
00:35	yogthos	yeah that's true
00:36	yogthos	hehe
00:36	yogthos	but even with something like document oriented dbs, my experience is very favorable when it comes to fp
00:36	bbloom	i now look at some old code that i was once very proud of and i'm like SHOCKED at how fragile it feels
00:36	yogthos	hehe
00:36	yogthos	yeah old code is almost always a big disappointment :P
00:37	bbloom	there was a point where i was writing c# and i was very careful to make all the right ReadOnlyCollections and whatnot and make sure i didn't leak a mutable value from a property with a getter, but no setter
00:37	yogthos	I often have those "why did I write" that moments ;)
00:37	yogthos	I find state management without persistent data structures is very hard
00:38	yogthos	your options are pass by value or pass by reference
00:38	yogthos	and pass by value tends to be expensive
00:38	bbloom	i'm finally getting the hang of it "in the large" i'd say
00:38	yogthos	with persistent data structures you only pay the price proportional to the size of the change
00:39	yogthos	to me that's really the biggest advantage hands down
00:39	bbloom	another really big issue is that ALL THE LIBRARIES OUT THERE are mutable
00:39	yogthos	yup
00:39	bbloom	you need turtles (almost) all the way
00:39	yogthos	it's very difficult to make any sorts of guarantees
00:39	yogthos	I liked that idea that fp is essentially SOA all the way to function level
00:40	yogthos	if you already buy into doing it at high level why would you do something different at low level
00:40	yogthos	each function is a service, they communicate over a common protocol which is the data structures
00:40	bbloom	i like to think of my code in terms of procedures, functions, processes, and systems
00:40	yogthos	and when I call a function I don't need to know what happens inside it
00:40	bbloom	which correspond to sequences, trees, DAGs, and graphs respectively :-P
00:40	yogthos	I just get a value back and it's mine to do with as I like :)
00:41	bbloom	i think each level of thing has different trade offs
00:41	yogthos	yeah thinking in terms of data transformations is definitely the way to go ;)
00:42	yogthos	I mean most problems are take some data here transform it and put it there
00:42	bbloom	right, but down one level from there is the algorithm/proceedure/strategy
00:42	yogthos	yup
00:42	bbloom	and one level up from there is forking/joining sequence of steps all arranged together
00:42	bbloom	and then a level up from THAT is the big ol' loop around the state of the universe
00:43	yogthos	knowing how to get that data from a to b properly and efficiently takes skill :)
00:43	bbloom	luckily, it's getting easier because more people are trying it and writing about it
00:43	yogthos	yup
00:44	yogthos	I also find for a lot of people it's concrete examples that resonate the best
00:44	yogthos	like here's a web app in 5 minutes, can you do that with your jsf/spring/hibernate monstrosity? :)
00:44	bbloom	but even if you see an example, you can't do it yourself until you internalize the mechanisms
00:45	yogthos	I've had much better success with that approach than explaining the fine details of state isolation :)
00:45	yogthos	well once people get curious and the problem set is limited to a small domain it gets easier
00:45	bbloom	the real problem is that people want to make THINGS
00:45	bbloom	and most THINGS do STUFF
00:45	yogthos	hehe
00:45	bbloom	but the real hard part is that DO word
00:46	yogthos	yeah that gets ingrained over the years
00:46	Raynes	You guys talk too much.
00:46	bbloom	because it's really not obvious how to think about DOING in a functional world
00:46	yogthos	Raynes: heya :)
00:46	tomoj	Raynes: is lazybot's example.policy only safe for private channels?
00:46	yogthos	Raynes: btw did a new release for lib-noir, bumped version for cheshire to the latest and added some tests :)
00:47	yogthos	bbloom: was rereading this the other day and had a chuckle :) http://steve-yegge.blogspot.ca/2006/03/execution-in-kingdom-of-nouns.html
00:47	bbloom	oh yeah
00:47	yogthos	I find what's worse is that people often get distracted from the actual problem they're solving with oo
00:48	Raynes	tomoj: It's the safe thing.
00:48	Raynes	tomoj: You're just granting your own code permission to run with the sandbox turned on.
00:48	Raynes	yogthos: I saw.
00:48	yogthos	they start building their hierarchies and interfaces, and abstract classes, and they forget what the problem actually was :)
00:48	Raynes	yogthos: I keep an eye on what goes on. If I don't say anything, it means I approve.
00:48	yogthos	Raynes: excellent :P
00:49	bbloom	Raynes: i'll just wait until you're gone to say a bunch of stuff that would upset you :-)
00:49	yogthos	Raynes: I also gave a grace period on merging it in, figured if you'd object it would be sooner than later :P
00:49	yogthos	hehe
00:49	Raynes	yogthos: This is true. But the important thing is that the pull requests give me notifications whereas I wouldn't know if you just randomly pushed something to master. It's more of an easy way to tell me "Yo, look at this."
00:49	yogthos	bbloom: but yeah I think web apps are a really good domain for people to get feet wet in fp
00:50	yogthos	Raynes: yup :)
00:50	bbloom	yogthos: to some extent, but they generally require communicating with external services that are stateful
00:51	bbloom	yogthos: but that's why i tell people that their first little clj app should have exactly one atom :-)
00:51	yogthos	bbloom: haha good rule
00:52	yogthos	bbloom: lol I felt dirty the other day showing somebody how to use an atom for accumulator :P
00:52	yogthos	I started explaining how to reduce recursively and then noticed the glazed over look :P
00:52	bbloom	eh, sometimes convenient works
00:52	bbloom	i've done it :-P
00:53	yogthos	yup, it's like this thing is not performance critical in any way just use an atom
00:53	yogthos	I still feel dirty any time I do :P
00:53	yogthos	the haskell habits die hard
00:54	yogthos	when I started learning fp I made it into a game of figuring out how to do something without using stateful things :)
00:54	yogthos	instead of frustrating it quickly turned into rewarding
00:57	tomoj	Raynes: I see, thanks.
00:57	Raynes	tomoj: AllPermission can sound scary, but I assure you is is harmless. :)
00:58	tomoj	hmm.. getting `java.security.AccessControlException: access denied ("java.util.PropertyPermission" "net.spy.log.LoggerImpl" "read")`
00:58	tomoj	need to customize clojail?
01:09	tomoj	I added that to .java.policy, but I'm guessing it's in the wrong place, since I put it in the same place as AllPermission
01:13	Gooder	Hi, in query-replace-regex, how can replace them globally? Now I type '!', it just replace these after cursors.
01:15	tmciver	Gooder: if you want all regexs replaced, use replace-regexp
01:16	samrat	I'm trying to write tests and `lein run` works fine but running the test seems to give me a EOF error. my core-test: https://www.refheap.com/paste/8643
01:17	samrat	I can't figure out why I'm getting an EOF, because the program actually just works fine and the tests don't seem to have any missing parens either
01:19	Gooder	tmciver: thanks, although it is not convenient.
02:06	ro_st	anyone using lein run with their ring apps have a way to do zero-downtime restarts?
02:06	ro_st	perhaps spinning up a new process and somehow switching ports once it's up?
02:09	ejackson	ro_st: reverse proxy ?
02:10	ro_st	we already do that
02:10	ro_st	with apache
02:10	ro_st	i'm hoping we can do it without having to change ports in the apache config
02:12	ejackson	how about when you start an ring app, before you bring up the jetty/whetever you make an HTTP call on the port that any servers listening will hear and shut down ?
02:12	ejackson	i haven't done this, its just a thought
02:13	ejackson	its async though, so you couldn't guarantee it would work. If the server has shut down its HTTP it can't tell you so
02:13	ejackson	over http anyway.
02:13	danieroux	ro_st: I would symlink my current deployment to somewhere where the main Apache config can just include the symlinked config. An apache reload would then work with the new config.
02:13	ejackson	perhaps over nrepl ?
02:13	danieroux	It also allows a previous config to lie around and get back into the action
02:13	ejackson	danieroux: thats quite cool
02:14	ejackson	me idea seems too complicated.
02:15	ro_st	thanks for the ideas, guys
02:15	danieroux	It would mean that you will have two instances of ring running concurrently, so that app would need to do fancy footwork to not talk to the wrong version of the data. But that's under your control :)
02:16	ro_st	this is in the context of a load balanced ec2 cluster, so we're going to see how far we get by lifting new nodes with pallet and taking down the old ones on a rolling restart basis
02:17	ro_st	if that takes too long, then we'll investigate process fiddling options
02:17	ejackson	there must be some literature in the continuous deployment space ?
02:17	ejackson	maybe immutant/pallet lists have ideas
02:17	ro_st	yup. we don't use wars or jars, though. and most java deployment solutions assume that
02:18	ejackson	yeah, I used to just push wars to tomcat and it would take care of it
02:19	ro_st	ya. we're using loose files on disk.
02:19	ro_st	development = staging = production. only env vars change from location to location, which can include uris to services
02:20	ejackson	ro_st: perhaps the solution is bulk up your process ?
02:20	ejackson	making wars was pretty easy last time i tried
02:21	ro_st	we're definitely going to investigate and compare wars to loose files
02:21	ro_st	loose files makes nrepling in and reloading from disk possible, though
02:22	ejackson	yeah
02:25	ro_st	aside from the startup time (which can be mitigated with a two-jvms-with-port-switching process), i don't know that wars or jars provide any value
02:25	ro_st	we already lein check everything on our build server prior to deploy
02:25	ejackson	well, you can get your build server to deploy straight to the tomcat which will auto restart
02:26	ejackson	so you solve the question you initially asked. I think.
02:26	ejackson	dunno if its zero downtime though
02:26	ejackson	but anyway, there will exists such a solution in javaland somewhere, i'd bet.
02:26	ro_st	it's not zero :-)
02:28	headshot	nasty stuff like ehcache, session replication, clustering
02:28	p_l	afaik some servers can reload applications without restart
02:29	headshot	tomcat/jetty/jboss can re-start an app without restarting the server
02:29	ro_st	ring sessions and datomic peer cache are in memcached, all other data in datomic, and rabbitmq for queuing. so the actual web app is 100% share-nothing
02:29	p_l	and well, WAR is there to do "component" like dropping of apps into server
02:30	p_l	ro_st: it's about restarting the whole VM, which can on a big system be pretty.... big
02:30	ro_st	yeah
02:30	p_l	especially if you have multiple smaller applications instead of one humongous app
02:31	p_l	so you can "swap" the part without incurring penalty of losing all the hotspot optimalizations or reloading various objects etc.
02:31	p_l	because you only reload one smaller WAR (a "sub" app, let's say, in a big system)
02:33	ro_st	interesting, i didn't know it was modular like that
02:35	p_l	well, that's what a short look suggests. That is, if you structure your system as multiple smaller applications (each in a war), you can do like that
02:35	p_l	while sharing the load of JVM
03:08	mae_	how do i type annotate array of something
03:08	mae_	like array of string
03:10	mae	how can i type annotate array of String
03:10	mae	String[] makes it choke
03:18	echo-area	mae: ^"[Ljava.lang.String;"
03:19	mae	thx
03:35	juxovec	I asked yesterday but didn't found a way out of my problem with parsing of large X(HT)ML file. There's question on Stack Overflow http://stackoverflow.com/questions/14333637/how-can-i-lazily-parse-big-xhtml-file-in-clojure
03:38	ro_st	juxovec: you need a streaming xml parser
03:39	juxovec	I know SAX in other languages
03:39	ro_st	http://nakkaya.com/2009/10/10/processing-xml-with-clojure/
03:39	ro_st	boom
03:39	ro_st	first hit in google for "streaming xml parser clojure"
04:24	tomoj	&(map {} [1 2 3] [4 5 6])
04:24	lazybot	⇒ (4 5 6)
04:42	ro_st	what does {} do when used as a fn?
04:43	echo-area	`get'
04:43	ro_st	&{{} 1 [1 2 3])
04:43	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: )
04:43	ro_st	&({} 1 [1 2 3])
04:43	lazybot	⇒ [1 2 3]
05:50	grav	howdy
05:50	grav	How does (String. byteArray "UTF-8") work?
05:50	grav	There doesn't seem to be a java.util.String constructor that takes a byte array and a string
05:51	grav	woops, there is ...
05:52	Ember-	indeed there is
05:52	grav	sometimes it helps just asking ;-)
06:06	augustl	are there any commonly used HTTP routing libraries out there other than compojure?
06:06	augustl	would like something more aware of things like content types, method not allowed, etc
06:06	p_l	hmmm... I seem to recall one
06:07	augustl	I guess this is what most people call REST nowadays :)
06:08	p_l	found
06:09	p_l	https://github.com/cmiles74/bishop https://github.com/banjiewen/Clothesline https://github.com/malcolmsparks/plugboard
06:10	p_l	the first one is the one I knew about, the other two were linked as "similar"
06:10	DrPheltRight	http://clojure-liberator.github.com/
06:11	augustl	http://clojure-liberator.github.com/
06:11	augustl	ah yeah :)
06:11	p_l	clojure-liberator is in a way followup on plugboard, afaik
06:11	p_l	anyway, look into WebMachine for inspiration :)
06:11	p_l	they actually implemented HTTP :P
06:11	Ember-	does liberator provide support for real REST?
06:12	augustl	liberator looks very nice
06:12	Ember-	meaning, it allows describing the API via HTML
06:12	p_l	Ember-: ...
06:12	augustl	Ember-: who does.. Even the wikipedia article messes up REST :)
06:12	p_l	that's not REST
06:12	Ember-	without you having to write that HTML yourself
06:12	Ember-	p_l: wrong, what I described is REST
06:12	augustl	"REST has emerged as a predominant Web service design model." wikipedia says
06:12	Ember-	but 90% of the world things otherwise
06:12	augustl	at least the article has a "multiple issues" box at the top
06:13	p_l	Ember-: no. That's some custom documentation generated on top. REST is the flow based on HTTP state machine
06:13	p_l	HTML serving is an example of such
06:13	Ember-	but Roy Fieldling thinks it's like what I said and since it's mr Fieldling who _invented_ REST I'm kinda like thinking he is correct
06:13	Ember-	no offense
06:13	Ember-	REST is about resources
06:13	Ember-	and that's it
06:13	Ember-	if you're using it in any other way then you're building a RPC
06:13	p_l	Ember-: and HTTP's fsm. And HTML is jusst one kind of resource on it.
06:14	Ember-	totally fine, do a RPC if it's what you need
06:14	Ember-	but please don't call it REST...
06:14	p_l	including auto-generated documentation in HTML served when you get apropriate content-type isn't required
06:14	Sgeo	What do Clojure people think about continuation-based web frameworks?
06:14	Ember-	http://roy.gbiv.com/untangled/2008/rest-apis-must-be-hypertext-driven
06:14	augustl	liberator = massive thumbs up, what a well defined project
06:15	augustl	Ember-: you've lost that fight :P Ref the wikipedia article
06:15	alexbaranosky	any of you using LIberator?
06:15	Ember-	augustl: not really. I'm not even trying to do that battle :P
06:15	augustl	Ember-: hypermedia is a better word, now that REST has been translated to mean HTTP
06:15	Ember-	just bringing this think up to make people a bit wiser
06:16	augustl	alexbaranosky: I'm about to
06:16	Ember-	think = thing
06:16	alexbaranosky	augustl: cool, am I correct in it being a thin wrapper over Compojure for expressing restful routes?
06:17	p_l	Ember-: ... none of those include requirement for HTML
06:17	augustl	alexbaranosky: no, it's an implementation of the entire HTTP flowchart
06:17	augustl	alexbaranosky: so you'll get 403 method not allowed, not 404, when you PUT to a path you didn't define a PUT for, etc
06:17	p_l	"Hypertext does not need to be HTML on a browser."
06:18	p_l	I feel old in such discussions -_-;
06:18	Ember-	indeed, in that I do agree
06:18	alexbaranosky	augustl: neat. It is built on top of Compojure though too right?
06:18	p_l	Ember-: yes, but you stated that as requirement for REST :)
06:18	Ember-	but in the web world it's HTML which is the de facto hypertext format
06:18	augustl	alexbaranosky: no, you need to use your own routing library
06:18	augustl	alexbaranosky: i.e. (ANY "/foo" (call-liberator-here ...))
06:18	Ember-	and no, not requirement for REST. Requirement for a REST library
06:18	Ember-	sure, pass me that data via XML and I'm happy too
06:19	p_l	Ember-: HTML is just one type of resource that can be delivered by REST
06:19	p_l	REST library shouldn't deal with resource spec
06:19	Ember-	indeed, but it should provide a mechanism to generate that spec
06:19	p_l	nope
06:19	Ember-	well, let's agree to disagree?
06:19	Ember-	and call it even
06:20	augustl	alexbaranosky: .. or so it seems :) Just been reading about it for a couple of minutes
06:22	Sgeo	So, no one cares about frameworks that are anti-REST?
06:23	Ember-	anti-rest?
06:23	Ember-	you mean stuff like soap when talking about webservices?
06:23	Ember-	soap is so blergh, hope I never ever have to touch that stuff again
06:23	Sgeo	I mean as in the URLs aren't necessarily meaningful
06:23	Sgeo	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seaside_(software)
06:24	p_l	Sgeo: I cared a bit, but I don't think you'll find a lot of support for them in stuff running on JVM ;)
06:24	p_l	Also, SOAP can be useful (just stay away from the god-damned RPC mode)
06:24	p_l	it's just... not necessary for majority of "public" apis out there
06:25	Ember-	haven't heard of Seaside before, gotta check it out
06:25	Sgeo	It's Smalltalk though, which in my opinion is a great environment and IDE but not so nice language
06:26	Sgeo	(Still better than Ruby)
06:26	p_l	the difference with REST and SOAP is that SOAP didn't have nerdfights on keeping it "pure" :)
06:26	scottj	unfortunately the best seaside app (and one of the most impressive web apps I've ever used), Dabble DB, was closed when Twitter acquired them.
06:32	augustl	will kittens die if I name a Clojure project "com.domainname.thing"?
06:35	augustl	the name of the product/client is a domain name, so it's tempting :)
06:35	clgv	augustl: probably
06:35	augustl	domainname.com-thing vs com.domainname.thing
06:36	clgv	what exatly do you want to name? the group-id and artifact-id?
06:36	augustl	clgv: I'm embarassed to admit that after 6 months of working with clojure I don't really know the difference..
06:37	clgv	augustl: in leiningen you specify [group-id/artifact-id version]
06:38	augustl	clgv: ah
06:38	augustl	seems most clojure libs only has one of them
06:38	clgv	then the artifact-id is the group-id as well
06:38	augustl	there's org.clojure/clojure, and com.datomic/datomic-free, but also just "ring"
06:38	augustl	I see
06:42	Sgeo	...Java ecosystem stuff, isn't it?
06:43	clgv	Sgeo: what do you mean?
06:43	Sgeo	artifact-id group-id etc
06:43	p_l	Sgeo: maven ecosystem, actually
06:43	Sgeo	Maven is a Javaish thing, isn't it?
06:43	clgv	hm well, I think it makes sense to have groups.
06:44	p_l	yes. Oh so javaish
06:44	p_l	bloated, with XML that makes you puke
06:44	p_l	so, yes, Javaish
07:14	augustl	hmm, it seems liberator is more focused on implementing the http spec than documenting itself and generally being convenient to use :)
07:22	augustl	has anyone here used liberator to build an API?
07:24	simonh	anyone have any experience with postgres on heroku with korma? i've seen john hume's post on the korma group (http://bit.ly/VHzxpV) but it's failing to compile on deployment. i'm guessing tis is the aot compilation problem (http://bit.ly/ZSDOFh)
07:27	simonh	the problem is splitting the DATABASE_URL btw. in john's example the db-uri is defd but there is no url to split at that point
07:52	augustl	seems to me that the examples from the liberator git repo doesn't describe a whole lot of real-world scenarios
07:53	augustl	for example, a PUT to /myresource/:id. How do you ensure a 404 via checking the database for that id?
07:57	cemerick	clojure.math.combinatorics has a (comment) form before its ns decl; how does this ever work? https://github.com/clojure/math.combinatorics/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/math/combinatorics.clj#L7
07:58	silasdavis	Could anyone suggest a good way of mainting inline documentation - ideally that I could auto-generated human-readable html documentation from - for a restful API built with http://clojure-liberator.github.com and compojure?
07:58	silasdavis	maintaining*
07:59	augustl	silasdavis: oh hey, I was just asking whether anyone in here ever built something with liberator and had some tips to share :)
07:59	augustl	silasdavis: is it open source?
08:00	silasdavis	ah well I'm afraid I'm right at the beginning of it
08:01	augustl	I see
08:01	augustl	trying to figure out how you avoid double processing on validation, and avoiding double database fetch for :resource-exists?
08:02	silasdavis	yes it will be open source - it is messaging system for free text messages (like twitter), but based on a social graph of various relay/broadcast type relations
08:02	silasdavis	uses mongodb and neo4j
08:03	silasdavis	the base is quite generic but the application layers on top are support peer-to-peer and peer-to-clinician support in maternity units
08:03	silasdavis	augustl: I'm afraid I'm also new to clojure - but could memoize help?
08:03	augustl	well, I could use a thread local variable, but that's not very functional now is it :)
08:04	augustl	generally, I find the DSL of liberator to be problematic in that there's no direct flow in it, just a map of specifications
08:04	silasdavis	I haven't actually implemented anything with it yet
08:05	silasdavis	I've just used compojure
08:05	augustl	I see
08:05	silasdavis	do you think it's worth investigating at all?
08:05	augustl	I've just been playing with it for the last hour
08:05	augustl	I can't see how I'd be able to actually implement something with it
08:05	silasdavis	ok well I'm about to start writing some methods so I'll get back to you
08:05	augustl	probably mostly due to the lack of documentation though, for all I know
08:14	noidi	cemerick, why shouldn't it work?
08:31	cemerick	noidi: the namespace won't load if it's being required from a namespace that uses :refer-clojure
08:37	yogthos	silasdavis: I've got a tutorial on liberator if that helps ;) http://yogthos.net/blog/30-Making+services+with+Liberator
08:39	bpr	cemerick: why's that?
08:40	bpr	couldn't that be considered a bug?
08:52	cemerick	noidi, bpr: see http://groups.google.com/group/clojure-dev/browse_frm/thread/a59aa6419bc84ba1?hl=en
08:52	cemerick	fixed on master
08:53	bpr	cemerick: ah cool
08:53	bpr	cemerick: thanks!
09:14	xificurC	if I have a .clj file saved at lets say C:/code/stuff/ and I want to load it in the repl in one go, how do I do it?
09:15	ro_st	,(doc "load-file")
09:15	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol>
09:15	ro_st	(doc load-file)
09:16	clojurebot	"([name]); Sequentially read and evaluate the set of forms contained in the file."
09:20	xificurC	ro_st: thanks
09:26	xificurC	I downloaded this snake game Stuart Halloway's book but I'm getting an error when loading it
09:27	xificurC	FileNotFoundException Could not locate clojure/contrib/import_static__init.class or clojure/contrib/import_static.clj on classpath: clojure.lang.RT.load (RT.java:434)
09:27	silasdavis	thanks yogthos
09:28	yogthos	silasdavis: no problemo :)
09:30	xificurC	(import-static java.awt.event.KeyEvent VK_LEFT VK_RIGHT VK_UP VK_DOWN) <-- this doesnt seem to work
09:30	xificurC	is this old>
09:30	xificurC	?
09:36	xificurC	nevermind, it tries to :use examples.import-static but its not in the zip
09:42	xificurC	this snake game: http://java.ociweb.com/mark/programming/ClojureSnake.html uses import-static as well, but it tries to load it from clojure.contrib. Where can one find it nowadays?
09:44	pjstadig	~contrib
09:44	clojurebot	Monolithic clojure.contrib has been split up in favor of smaller, actually-maintained libs. Transition notes here: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
09:44	pjstadig	xificurC: you'll want to look here to try to find where import-static ended up ^
09:44	pjstadig	but it was probably dropped
09:47	xificurC	pjstadig: it's listed but not maintained. is there another library that serves the same purpose? If I understand correctly this was used to catch key presses
09:47	xificurC	so that the snake's movement could be changed by pressing the arrow keys
09:48	pjstadig	xificurC: wish i could help, but i didn't even know that import-static existed until you mentioned it
09:48	pjstadig	if it didn't get migrated to new contrib, then it's possible that some other library exists to do the same thing, but i don't know
09:48	xificurC	so how does one read key presses nowadays in clojure
09:48	chouser	you can import java.awt.event.KeyEvent and then use KeyEvent/VK_LEFT
09:49	pjstadig	yeah you'll just have to qualify the static field names
09:49	xificurC	thanks pjstadig and chouser, I'll try
09:49	pjstadig	shouldn't affect the ability to read key presses, you'll just have to rework the code a bit
09:50	chouser	xificurC: another option: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7878714/how-to-find-import-static-in-clojure-1-3
10:01	yogthos	xificurC: here's another example of handling inputs https://github.com/yogthos/Clojure-Tetris/blob/master/src/tetris/core.clj
10:09	jweiss	watchers are still called "alpha" in the docstring, even though they've been there for what, 3-4 releases? really still alpha?
10:09	jweiss	$doc add-watch
10:10	chouser	I doubt they'd go away, but I suppose they're reserving the right to change their API.
10:10	silasdavis	is the license key a standard part of defproject - is it interpreted by lein to do anything in particular?
10:13	xificurC	yogthos thanks, i'll try to check that too
10:19	jweiss	is this a place to use transients: i'm repeatedly conj'ing onto a list in an atom. other threads might want to read that value as the conjing is happening
10:20	matthavener	jweiss: afaik, you cannot store transients in an atom
10:21	dnolen	jweiss: no - transients are performance optimization when you need to build some data quickly - never let them escape
10:21	dnolen	matthavener: not true, you can put anything in an atom.
10:21	jweiss	dnolen: i see, so it's meant to be used locally, in a single thread
10:21	dnolen	jweiss: locally in a function preferable.
10:21	matthavener	dnolen: ah, for some reason i thought it detected that as "bad" and threw an exception
10:41	silasdavis	any style guidance on when to use 'use'?
10:41	yogthos	silasdavis: it's discouraged generally
10:41	silasdavis	I'm inclined to default to require, but I see that use might make certain files (like those containing routes) more DSL-y
10:42	silasdavis	so require everywhere then?
10:42	nDuff	use with :only can make sense
10:43	yogthos	I find there's 2 main issues with use, a) you don't know where things are coming from, b) you might get a collision with another namespace
10:46	silasdavis	yes I see both of those, I suppose the case I have in mind is with compojure in a file containing primarily defroutes directives
10:46	silasdavis	is (GET "url" [] (foo)) nicer than (cc/GET "url" [] (food))
10:46	yogthos	like anything it's a rule of thumb, if use makes the code more readable then it's appropriate :)
10:55	silasdavis	is foo-bar a sensible clojure module name?
10:57	silasdavis	no it's not a valid class name
10:57	clgv	you can name a namespace like that
10:57	silasdavis	how should I name two word clojure modules then?
10:58	silasdavis	I read that it gets converted to and underscore when compiled
10:58	clgv	but the filename needs to have a "_" instead of the "-"
10:58	silasdavis	perhaps I should use an underscore to start with to reduce possible confusion?
10:58	silasdavis	what is the convention?
10:59	augustl	silasdavis: dashes for names, underscores in file names
10:59	yogthos	the convention is to use - in the names
11:01	silasdavis	if you have 3 identically named files in different namespaces and locations in the file structure, say 'message.clj' would you rename to 'message-tests', 'message-routes', and 'message-model'
11:01	silasdavis	?
11:02	silasdavis	this would be similar to the convention in MVC.NET where you might have 'MessageController', 'MessageViewModel', etc
11:02	silasdavis	can't remember what rails does - it's more verbose but it makes the files more instantly recognisable by name...
11:07	yogthos	generally you'd make separate folders, for example routes.messages, models.message-model, etc
11:08	yogthos	so you'd have structure like src/myapp/routes/messages.clj and the namespace name would be myapp.routes.messages
11:09	hyPiRion	Hey guys, have everyone upgraded to lein 2.0.0-RC2?
11:10	ToxicFrog	I'm still on pre7, apparently
11:12	babilen	hyPiRion: I have, why?
11:13	hyPiRion	babilen: If there's any bugs within RC2 I'd like to check them out before I get too busy with other things
11:15	babilen	hyPiRion: Well, apart from RC1's problem with lein-newnew I haven't seen anything. But I did not stress-test it (been mostly just using "lein repl" which was working fine for the projects I've been working with)
11:17	hyPiRion	babilen: Yeah, I think edge cases there are fixed. There was another one in RC1 regarding "lein upgrade" not working properly, but that's fixed as well.
11:18	hyPiRion	It's just, well, I'd be sad if some trivial bug which is kind of a dealbreaker got into 2.0.0.
11:19	dgrnbrg	So, I'm trying to figure out if this is possible in core.logic: I have a collection of maps: [{:a 1 :b 2} {:b 3 :c 4 :d 5} {:d 6}] and I'd like to have a goal that unifies that to get {:a [1] :b [2 3] :c [4] :d [5 6]} as the answer (merging maps and concating values)
11:19	jweiss	anyone here run lazybot (either here on freenode, or another copy)? mine gets disconnected and won't reconnect himself. i just see a whole bunch of repeated ">>>PING :lazybot" in the log. no ping response but the bot does nothing to resolve the problem
11:26	TimMc	augustl: Reaching into the backlog... no, kittens will not die if you name your project "com.example/fnurbl". I can't promise the same if you name your project "stuff".
11:27	Rich_Morin	http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/doc/pprint/CommonLispFormat.html references http://github.com/tomfaulhaber/pprint-examples, but that gets a 404 error. Any ideas where it went?
11:27	lazybot	Nooooo, that's so out of date! Please see instead http://clojure.github.com/clojure-contrib/doc/pprint/CommonLispFormat.html and try to stop linking to rich's repo.
11:28	hyPiRion	hahah.
11:29	hyPiRion	Oh, speaking of cl-format, anyone here using it who would like to vet a bug in it?
11:29	hyPiRion	$google CLJ-1134
11:30	hyPiRion	Hrmph, lazybot doesn't like to search anymore. Oh well: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1134
11:31	hyPiRion	It's very easy to confirm it's a bug and that the patch works, as it's an implementation of a specification.
11:33	Rich_Morin	Thanks, lazybot, but http://clojure.github.com/clojure-contrib/doc/pprint/CommonLispFormat.html removes the broken link and says to look in "the clojure.contrib.pprint.examples package". Is http://code.google.com/p/clojure-contrib/source/browse/trunk/src/clojure/contrib/pprint/examples/?r=907 now the place to look?
11:37	TimMc	Rich_Morin: If you're doing archaeology, sure.
11:37	TimMc	~contrib
11:37	clojurebot	Monolithic clojure.contrib has been split up in favor of smaller, actually-maintained libs. Transition notes here: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
11:41	Rich_Morin	Unfortunately, when "clojure.contrib.pprint migrated to clojure.pprint", the examples seem to have gotten lost. I'm looking for some examples on how to extend pprint - suggestions welcome.
11:42	TimMc	Ah, I see.
11:42	TimMc	So archaeology indeed.
12:01	devn	whoa, cool!
12:02	devn	Google Refine lets you do transforms using Clojure
12:02	devn	http://code.google.com/p/google-refine/wiki/Downloads?tm=2
12:04	pandeiro	i'd like to make available a wrapper for this lib: http://www.jthink.net/jaudiotagger/index.jsp - but it's in no repos anywhere as far as i can see... can anyone advise me on how to proceed?
12:05	yogthos	pandeiro: they do have a maven repo http://mavenhub.com/mvn/java.net-m2/org/jaudiotagger/2.0.3
12:06	pandeiro	yogthos: oops.. thanks! how'd you find that btw?
12:06	yogthos	pandeiro: so you'd reference it in your project as [org/jaudiotagger "2.0.3"]
12:06	yogthos	pandeiro: google fu :P
12:07	yogthos	hehe
12:11	maleghast	Anyone give me a quick pointer as to how to create a string representation (in MySQL Datetime format) of a today-a-year-ago - need a quick hit to construct a Korma Where clause...
12:13	frozenlock	maleghast: I like to use clj-time whenever I need to deal with time thingy.
12:13	maleghast	Thanks, I will look at that :-)
12:13	maleghast	frozenlock: Cheers!
12:13	ejackson	maleghast: what frozenlock said
12:14	frozenlock	ewwww javascript... time to fire up the cljs repl!
12:19	frozenlock	Anyone knows of a cljs wrapper for envision? http://www.humblesoftware.com/envision/index
12:44	ppppaul	hey guise
12:47	frozenlock	What would be the quickest way to determine if a js library is compatible with the google closure compiler?
12:53	ppppaul	i'm parsing xml, (using data.xml and data.zip). when i hit a string of length 1, the parser makes a char instead of a string... is there an easy way for me to prevent this)?
12:54	pbostrom	frozenlock: in my experience, any js library is compatible in terms of calling it from cljs with advanced optimization turned off, if you want advanced optimization, there's possibly a little more work to do
12:55	pbostrom	frozenlock: if you want to turn on adv comp, then the quickest thing to try is to specify the js library itself as an extern file, if that doesn't work, then you'll have to write your own extern file for the lib
12:56	TimMc	ppppaul: <a> gives \a and <bc> gives "bc"?
12:56	frozenlock	pbostrom: thanks!
12:57	ppppaul	yes
12:57	TimMc	That's... insane.
12:57	ppppaul	well, actually <Number>2</Number> gives /2
12:57	TimMc	Still insane.
12:57	ppppaul	indeed
12:58	AWizzArd	I want to ask your opinion, about licensing. I found an interesting lib which is under gpl. I want to use it as a dev-dependency only, and think that because of this I can still freely chose my own license for my lib. It doesn’t have to be gpl, because I happen to use a gpl program during development time. Opinions?
12:58	technomancy	the GPL only applies to what you distribute
12:59	AWizzArd	no gpl code distributed – so free choice for me then
12:59	technomancy	you should be fine
13:00	AWizzArd	thx
13:00	technomancy	no problem
13:03	ppppaul	(xml1-> ) was doing weird things that i didn't expect
13:03	ppppaul	it was turning my string into a list of chars
13:04	ppppaul	i was only dealing with single length strings, so it looked like it was doing a char conversion, but it was doing really weird things with stings of length > 1
13:08	silasdavis	is (:require foo.bar.core :as foo) considered harmful?
13:09	ppppaul	lol
13:09	ppppaul	why?
13:09	clojurebot	why not?
13:09	ppppaul	foo/fn
13:09	ppppaul	how many foos do you need?
13:09	technomancy	silasdavis: I'd say yes; you should wrap it in a vector so you can add more clauses
13:09	silasdavis	technomancy: ah yes that too
13:10	ppppaul	(:require [foo.bar.core :as foo])
13:10	silasdavis	I mean I'm hiding the namespaces symbol
13:10	silasdavis	'foo'
13:10	ppppaul	i think foo is too common of a name
13:10	ppppaul	your namespace should be foo1 or something
13:11	ppppaul	however, if you have no other namespaces competing for 'foo' then you are good to go
13:11	silasdavis	ppppaul: noted, but will bad things happen if I alias a module with the name of a namespace?
13:11	ppppaul	i haven't used (alias) so i'm not sure
13:12	silasdavis	not alias then, whatever I'm doing there
13:12	TimMc	silasdavis: No, since no one is using single-segment namespaces. (Right? Right?)
13:12	jduan1981	let's say you are given a lazy sequence of infinite length, how can you find the first element that is repeated? e.g., given [1,2,3,4,5,1,7,8 …], should return 1
13:12	TimMc	silasdavis: Also, you haven't require'd the namespace foo.
13:13	ppppaul	jduan1981, that could take up a lot of mem
13:13	silasdavis	TimMc: ah so it means nothing outside of the ns macro?
13:13	ppppaul	conj to a list that you use (contains? on for each element in the infinite list
13:13	ppppaul	and cross your fingers
13:13	arrdem	ppppaul: won't work.
13:13	ppppaul	you can do (take-while)
13:13	arrdem	contains? never does a linear search
13:14	arrdem	,(contains? [1 2 3 4 5 6] 6)
13:14	clojurebot	false
13:14	arrdem	has to be a set or map.
13:14	jduan1981	so go through the sequence one by one and call contains?
13:14	arrdem	or some other lookup structure.
13:14	TimMc	jduan1981: loop/recur building up a set of seen items
13:15	ppppaul	<3 sets
13:15	jduan1981	loop/recur should work, is there a more functional solution? loop/recur seems a bit more imperative
13:15	TimMc	So?
13:16	jduan1981	just wonder if there's another way
13:17	cemerick	,(reduce (fn [s x] (if (s x) (reduced x) (conj s x))) #{} [1 2 3 4 5 1 7 8])
13:17	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: reduced in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
13:17	cemerick	feh
13:17	cemerick	jduan1981: that'll work in Clojure 1.5.0.
13:17	jduan1981	that's more functional!
13:17	jduan1981	let me try to understand it
13:18	TimMc	Yeah, but I don't like how the type of the reduce output changes.
13:18	cemerick	TimMc: that's one of the 12 ways in which reduced is awesome
13:18	TimMc	heh
13:19	tomoj	you mean you want reduce to return the reduced?
13:26	ppppaul	emacs clojure-mode, how do i add fancy syntax hilighting to symbols?
13:26	ppppaul	i want to hilite 'keep'
13:35	progo	hi-lock-mode for starters
13:41	rahcola	what are my options if I want to define (with def) something mutually recursive?
13:41	progo	(declare) your other function
13:42	jeremyheiler	Can also use trampoline.
13:43	TimMc	jeremyheiler: I don't think that helps...
13:45	rahcola	progo: not a function, and I'm gettin unbound errors with declare
13:45	jeremyheiler	TimMc: I suppose the "with def" requirement makes that so...
13:45	progo	rahcola: oh! :)
13:47	rahcola	I actually managed to make it work once with #'
13:47	rahcola	did some reorganizing of the code and it stoped working
13:48	progo	well then. Run bisect with your DVCS of choice ;)
13:49	dnolen	rahcola: sounds like you're trying to do something at the top level, you should paste what you're doing - but mutually recursive values at the top level is not really supported.
13:49	TimMc	~paste
13:49	clojurebot	paste is not gist.github.com
13:49	TimMc	~botsmack
13:49	clojurebot	clojurebot evades successfully!
13:50	TimMc	nDuff: What changes?
13:51	nDuff	TimMc: New JavaScript that makes copy/paste often inoperable was the breaking point for me.
13:51	nDuff	s/in to/into/
13:51	TimMc	ew, wha?
13:52	S11001001	anyway using gist isn't showing clojure pride
13:52	TimMc	That's not a change.
13:53	cemerick	nDuff: yeah, whatever editor they're using is badly broken
13:53	rahcola	http://pastebin.com/Sz112wnX
13:54	nDuff	shudder
13:54	nDuff	(but... at least gist isn't pastebin.com)
13:54	rahcola	not even too sure why this would work in a strictly evaluating language
13:54	S11001001	yeah.
13:54	silasdavis	does anyone know how to serve different content types from the same url using liberator?
13:55	silasdavis	how would you achieve that with compojure alone
13:55	S11001001	nDuff: I don't understand its popularity.
13:55	nDuff	rahcola: ...for future note, pastebins with ads (and pastebin.com is historically full of 'em, often animated) tend to be frowned on a bit.
13:55	nDuff	S11001001: Which one?
13:55	S11001001	nDuff: pastebin
13:55	S11001001	given all the ads
13:55	nDuff	S11001001: Ahh. I think that comes from owning the domain linked to the vernacular.
13:55	nDuff	...only excuse I can think of, anyhow.
13:56	nDuff	...but it's a matter of cost/benefit; pastebin.com is high-cost, low-benefit.
13:57	rahcola	nDuff: noted, can't actually see the ads my self, adblocked
13:58	S11001001	rahcola: not everyone can do that
13:58	dnolen	rahcola: yeah that's not going to work (the paste).
14:00	rahcola	just didn't know about the ads as I didn't see them :D. what would you recommend then?
14:01	nDuff	rahcola: ...well, in #clojure we tend to dogfood a bit and use refheap.com (written by Raynes in Clojure)
14:02	nDuff	rahcola: ...personally I'm also kinda' fond of ideone.com, since it'll actually run your code server-side, so folks can see the bug you're reporting directly, you can see that fixes they propose work, etc.
14:03	nDuff	(that one does have ads, but they're less conspicuous/annoying than pastebin.com, and... well, sandboxed server-side evaluation)
14:03	nDuff	gist.github.com also used to be a popular choice, but some recent revisions broke it a bit.
14:07	rahcola	ok, this actually seems to work (again) https://www.refheap.com/paste/8654
14:07	lichtblau	Any ideas why the nrepl buffer would remain empty after connecting?
14:08	rahcola	is there a "right" way to do this?
14:08	ieure	Is Clojure metadata restricted to some arbitrary whitelist?
14:08	ieure	Because
14:08	ieure	(def xf (with-meta (fn [] "hey") {:my "sup"}))
14:08	TimMc	ieure: In terms of its contents? No.
14:08	lichtblau	I've got two emacses from different machines trying to connect to the same nrepl. One emacs (23.3.1) works, the other doesn't (23.1.1). (The one that I actually need is the one that doesn't work, and I don't have root on that system to try and upgrade...)
14:08	lichtblau	I'm pretty certain that I'm using the same nrepl.el and clojure-mode on both. Running emacs -q --no-site-file.
14:08	ieure	(meta #'xf) -> {:ns #<Namespace user>, :name xf, :line 1, :file "NO_SOURCE_FILE"}
14:08	dnolen	rahcola: like I said earlier, there is no good way to do what you want. You need to reformulate your approach.
14:08	TimMc	ieure: You're checking the var's meta, not the val's meta.
14:09	ieure	TimMc, Got it.
14:09	ieure	TimMc, And the attr-map in defn forms is set as metadata on the val?
14:10	TimMc	,(meta count)
14:10	clojurebot	nil
14:10	rahcola	dnole: ok, thanks anyway
14:10	TimMc	,(meta #'count)
14:10	clojurebot	{:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name count, :file "clojure/core.clj", :line 810, :arglists ([coll]), ...}
14:10	ieure	TimMc, Right, so:
14:10	ieure	(defn hi ^{:sup "Hi"} [] "oh boy")
14:10	TimMc	ieure: On the var.
14:10	ieure	Does not show the :sup key on the var nor the val.
14:10	TimMc	There you're attaching it to the args. :-)
14:11	ieure	TimMc, Okay, I see.
14:11	TimMc	def and defn pluck metadata off of the symbol and (I think in some cases) the args, but mostly the symbol.
14:12	ieure	TimMc, I get it. Just wasn't thinking about how the reader interpreted what was sent to defn.
14:12	TimMc	nDuff: OK, yeah, gist definitely is less useful now.
14:12	ieure	And was confused by the [name doc-string? attr-map? [params*] body] doc on defn
14:13	bordatoue	hello , could anyone please tell me how to iterate through an Enumerator type in clojure
14:14	TimMc	,(apropos 'enumer)
14:14	clojurebot	(enumeration-seq)
14:14	ieure	TimMc, Thanks for the clarification.
14:16	bordatoue	TimMc: i can't find a func apropos in clojure 1.4
14:17	silasdavis	if I have a module 'message-views', do I have to name it message_views.clj?
14:17	silasdavis	I was under the impression clojure or lein or something would handle this
14:17	ppppaul	i want to do destructuring something like this {{user-session :session} :as company-resp}
14:18	ppppaul	without the :keys keyword as i have a symbol collision
14:18	ppppaul	i haven't seen any examples of something like thiat
14:18	ppppaul	this, is is possible?
14:20	bordatoue	where is the function apropos defined
14:20	dnolen	ppppaul: {user-session :session :as company-resp} should work
14:20	jeremyheiler	bordatoue: clojure.repl
14:21	ppppaul	really?
14:21	bordatoue	jeremyheiler: thanks,
14:22	bordatoue	is there any way to link find doc from clojure repl on emacs
14:22	dnolen	ppppaul: yes
14:22	ppppaul	thanks. i thought i had trouble with it in the past... maybe i was doing something nutty
14:22	dnolen	,(let [{foo :foo :as bar} {:foo 1}] [foo bar])
14:23	clojurebot	[1 {:foo 1}]
14:24	bordatoue	currently I am using C-c C-d d for doc \
14:30	ppppaul	i have changed my ways
14:32	amalloy	"where is the function apropos defined" - what a sad, ironic problem to have
14:36	clgv	amalloy: huh?
14:36	amalloy	because apropos is for finding things you don't know where they are
14:36	clgv	ah lol. I got bitten by that as well, but for other functions^^
14:38	clgv	amalloy: linux has its "whereis" ;)
14:39	bordatoue	there used to be a func called javadoc in clojure.repl i can't find it anymore
14:39	nz-	has anybody ran to any problems with newest lein and midje?
14:40	bordatoue	where is javadoc ? even apropos can't help
14:41	jeremyheiler	bordatoue: I refer you to http://clojure.github.com/clojure/
14:41	TimMc	amalloy: Actually, apropos is bad for that -- it tells you that something exists, but not where it found it. :-(
14:41	nz-	lein midje started giving Could not locate bultitude/core__init.class or bultitude/core.clj after upgrading lein from preview10 to RC2
14:41	TimMc	bordatoue: (use 'clojure.repl) if your repl doesn't do it for you
14:42	nz-	adding bultitude 0.2.0 to dependencies fixes things
14:47	bordatoue	TimMc: Is there any general rules / policies that are used to determine which fns needs to be stored in under certain namespaces, for example 'clojure.repl
14:48	frozenlock	Any `fetch' user here? I'm wondering why (fm/letrem [a (adder 3 4)] a) returns nil, but (fm/letrem [a (adder 3 4)] (print a)) will print 7...
14:48	augustl	I'm mapping a collection. But one of the map operation might throw an exception. In that case, I need to get the item in the collection that caused the exception and return it applied to a function. Suggestions? :)
14:49	TimMc	bordatoue: I don't think there are any explicit policies, but you'd have to ask someone from Relevance I mean Clojure/core.
14:49	frozenlock	TimMc: finger slipped? :P
14:49	TimMc	Yeah, the keys are right next to each other, for some reason.
14:51	bordatoue	General question, do you have 'clojure.repl loaded in your namespace while working on clojure. I am asking because when I use 'clojure-jack-in i don't usually load clojure.repl
14:52	frozenlock	Ok now `fetch' really confuses me... (fm/letrem [a (adder 3 4)] (def tt a)), tt ---> 7
14:54	TimMc	bordatoue: I get annoyed if it's not there, yes.
14:55	bordatoue	thanks
15:02	gfredericks	are there any clojure testing libs that can create mock java objects?
15:05	nopolabs	Can't resist: http://www.dehora.net/journal/2008/12/02/qotd-mock-objects/
15:06	dnolen	augustl: catch the exception in your map fn and throw ex-info
15:06	Sgeo	I like Lisps
15:07	Sgeo	Slightly annoyed that Smalltalk is not a Lisp
15:07	Sgeo	>.>
15:08	craigbro	hehe
15:09	augustl	dnolen: I actually know beforehand where the exception will be, the array wil contain a nil. So I'll just look for that :)
15:09	augustl	s/array/mapped list/
15:09	Iceland_jack	Sgeo: So you want SmallTalk to be even less popular :)
15:10	Sgeo	Nooo
15:10	Sgeo	Actually, I'm sure if Smalltalk were more popular, I'd be against it. I feel like a language hipster sometimes :/
15:10	technomancy	better find a new obscure language, Clojure is getting dangerously popular
15:11	technomancy	may I suggest Io or Factor?
15:11	Iceland_jack	I would suggest mine but I don't want to ruin then
15:11	Iceland_jack	*them
15:14	Sgeo	I think the thing scaring me from Io is largely issues getting it to work on Windows
15:14	technomancy	seems like that'd be a plus for a hipster language
15:15	brehaut	my new language is only going to run on plan9 and arch linux
15:16	seangrove	Hrm, how can I tell if a variable is a function in cljs? Something like (= (type #()) "function")
15:17	frozenlock	seangrove: (fn? +)
15:17	TimMc	Sgeo: I only write my programs in Fixie.
15:17	seangrove	frozenlock: hrmp
15:18	seangrove	Thanks!
15:18	Sgeo	seangrove, do you want :foo to count as a function?
15:18	seangrove	Nah
15:18	Sgeo	Wait, I have no idea if cljs has ifn?
15:18	seangrove	Just keeping it basic
15:18	Sgeo	Ah, ok
15:20	nz-	technomancy: has leiningen started to do something different with bultitude since 2.0.0-preview10?
15:25	technomancy	nz-: it's now contained on the bootclasspath rather than loaded as part of a plugin
15:26	nz-	lein midje started complaining that bultitude is not found after I upgraded lein preview10->RC2
15:26	technomancy	nz-: did you see the mailing list thread? seancorfield got it working.
15:27	Sgeo	Factor is cool in some ways, but annoying in others
15:27	nz-	technomancy: i missed that one
15:27	Sgeo	Smalltalk's ifTrue:ifFalse: is far more readable
15:30	TimMc	technomancy: Was it in fact a lein-midje bug?
15:30	nz-	http://librelist.com/browser//leiningen/2013/1/14/changed-behavior-between-preview10-and-rc1-2/#dda732eae0e59724a91f0fba324657ef
15:31	technomancy	TimMc: not sure
15:33	TimMc	Huh. Using :plugins isn't exactly a workaround, since that's really the right way to use it, but Marick's stacktraces are pretty weird.
15:34	nz-	it seems that it triggers in midje 1.4 even if you put lein-midje to plugins, if I change midje to 1.5-alpha5, it starts to work
15:35	nz-	also putting bultitude to dependencies fixes this
15:36	nz-	my project.clj: https://github.com/RuuviTracker/ruuvitracker_server/blob/master/project.clj
15:47	TimMc	technomancy: You said that newnew has temporarily been copied into leiningen -- will any modifications to the included version be propagated back?
15:51	TimMc	I ask because I'd like to make a better fix than "quadruple bacon backslashes", but I'm not sure where to put it.
15:52	technomancy	TimMc: it's not temporarily; I just haven't updated the newnew readme to explain that the copy in leiningen is now canonical
15:52	TimMc	k
15:53	technomancy	nz-: so it sounds like a bug in midje 1.4 that was taking advantage of a bug in older versions of Leiningen perhaps?
15:53	technomancy	some kind of weird classpath leakage
15:58	nz-	something like that
16:03	frozenlock	Any templates to create new cljs project? (Something with ring perhaps?)
16:06	TimMc	stuartsierra: Does http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLASSPATH-4 need anything to move forward? (java.classpath breaks when there are spaces in the pathnames)
16:06	amouat	frozenlock: there's a few I think, including lein-cljsbuild
16:07	stuartsierra	I hate JIRA.
16:07	aroemers	frozenlock: or have a look at the Luminus project: https://github.com/yogthos/luminus-template
16:07	TimMc	heh
16:07	stuartsierra	I'll add it to my TODO list.
16:07	TimMc	Thanks!
16:07	stuartsierra	np
16:08	aroemers	it is quite new and under development, but that may be fine for you
16:11	aroemers	frozenlock: read more about Luminus in the posts at http://yogthos.net
16:13	amouat	aroemers: looks good - wish I'd seen it before starting my cljs project yesterday!
16:13	frozenlock	amouat: I already use lein-cljsbuild for compiling.. it's not really what I'm looking for. But thanks for the input.
16:14	rlander	amouat: have you used it for an actual prod app?
16:14	frozenlock	aroemers: Thanks. Again, not really what I was looking for (I just want a dev environment for a cljs library), but it sure looks very nice for a complete app!
16:14	amouat	I just found the blog post I read the other day: http://squirrel.pl/blog/2013/01/02/get-started-with-clojurescript-with-leiningen-templates/
16:15	amouat	aroemers: it's just a side project, but hopefully it will get used
16:15	aroemers	frozenlock: no problem
16:15	amouat	still struggling to get started really :(
16:15	aroemers	rlander: ^^
16:16	rlander	amouat: oops, I think I meant aroemers
16:16	frozenlock	"get-started-with-clojurescript-with-leiningen-templates" Well that looks promising :P
16:18	amouat	sorry, and I meant rlander ;)
16:18	aroemers	rlander: No, I haven't. But I read about it and thought it is nice project.
16:18	rlander	aroemers: Yes, I'm taking a look at the docs now. =)
16:21	rlander	yogthos: Is compojure the only routing lib on Luminus? Are you planning on supporting more?
16:21	yogthos	rlander: I wasn't really planning on using others at the moment, is there reason to?
16:22	yogthos	rlander: moustache would probably the other popular one
16:22	rlander	yogthos: In my case, yes.
16:22	yogthos	as far as I can tell they provide fairly similar functionality and compojure is probably more popular
16:23	rlander	yogthos: I'm actually not a fan of either compojure nor moustache
16:23	yogthos	rlander: which one do you use?
16:24	rlander	yogthos: none atm, but I'm getting there https://github.com/rlander/fevre =)
16:24	yogthos	rlander: ah a new effort :)
16:24	rlander	yogthos: I like all my routes in a single place.
16:25	yogthos	rlander: that's sort of how compojure does it by default though no?
16:25	yogthos	rlander: you have (routes ...)
16:25	yogthos	it lets you break them up into groups, but doesn't require doing that
16:25	rlander	yogthos: Well, sortof...
16:26	rlander	yogthos: first, there's no built-in reverse-url mechanism
16:26	rlander	yogthos: and nobody's been able to figure out one yet.
16:26	seangrove	ohpauleez: Any chance of a new shoreleave-browser release? The current version of chrome chokes on the Blob constructor in the current release
16:26	yogthos	rlander: heh I think there was a discussion on this topic yesterday :)
16:27	seangrove	I'm working from head now, but seems like it'd qualify for a point version release
16:27	rlander	yogthos: ohh, coll. I'll go back and read the logs.
16:27	rlander	*cool
16:29	rlander	yogthos: anyways, I like Luminus' conventions a lot, but why not let each project define it's own libraries, like ruby's Padrino does (padrinorb.com) ?
16:30	rlander	yogthos: or monkrb
16:33	biff_tannen	what are some real applications that use clojure ? i define 'real' as customer-facing, scalable, etc ...
16:33	biff_tannen	having some relative usefulness
16:33	tolsen	jux.com uses clojure called by jruby on rails for optimizing layout of photos
16:33	systemfault	twitter storm is written with clojure IIRC
16:34	nickmbailey	it is
16:34	nickmbailey	or mostly
16:34	systemfault	storm is far from being a toy.
16:35	egghead	more from marz, cascalog for cascading/hadoop workflows
16:37	egghead	biff_tannen: some popular companies using clojure: http://geni.com http://runa.com http://www.factual.com/ there are tons of others
16:37	dnolen_	biff_tannen: do you mean companies building products w/ it? There are quite a few now
16:37	egghead	groupon is another big name using it, but I think it's mostly internal there, not 'customer facing' as such
16:38	frozenlock	biff_tannen: https://bacnethelp.com is written entirely with clojure and cljs. But I'm bad at webdev, so I don't know if it's a valid example :P
16:38	technomancy	biff_tannen: clojars is the biggest OSS clojure web app
16:38	ohpauleez	seangrove: It's in master
16:38	ohpauleez	it'll be cut to release shortly
16:39	ohpauleez	There are updates across the all the modules
16:39	ohpauleez	and a new one about to be released: shoreleave-baseline
16:42	ohpauleez	I'll cut some snapshot releases by Friday
16:44	frozenlock	technomancy: wouldn't Lein also be a perfect example? Must be one of the most used clojure project.
16:49	technomancy	frozenlock: sure, but it's not very typical of a customer-facing program unless your customers are hackers
16:50	biff_tannen	tolsen egghead dnolen_ frozenlock technomancy thank you
16:52	tmciver	biff_tannen: why don't you make like a tree . . . and get outta here.
16:52	biff_tannen	its leave
16:52	biff_tannen	make like a tree and LEAVE
16:52	technomancy	tmciver: I was tempted to make that joke too =)
16:52	biff_tannen	you sound like a DAMN FOOL when you say it like that
16:52	tmciver	Love those movies.
16:53	systemfault	1.21 GIGAWATTTS!
16:54	systemfault	In french... the dolorean takes a lot more energy... 2.12 gigawatts.
16:54	systemfault	*2.21
16:55	TimMc	Arg, what keeps creating ~/repl-port?
16:55	egghead	lein
16:55	frozenlock	I'm leaving this here for logging and google search: I had a question earlier about how to get a value when using the `fetch' library in cljs. It would always return nil. I asked M. Granger if it was possible to get the value of anything inside a fetch: "Unfortunately no :( By the nature of JavaScript letrem is an asynchronous block, meaning that it will execute at a point later and simply return nil for now. The block gets execute
16:55	frozenlock	when the server responds and so you need to think about your flow a little differently. Instead of returning something, it's basically just a callback and so everything you expect to happen as a result needs to happen in functions called within that block."
16:56	egghead	quick technomancy how do I make nrepl not dump repl-port files everywhere or at least clean them up when I control+d
16:56	technomancy	egghead: should be fixed in the latest
16:56	egghead	ah cool, will pull latest then, cheers!
16:57	yogthos	rlander: well that's sort of what the +foo module support is like
16:57	yogthos	rlander: you could write a plugin which will swap out compojure with something else fairly easily
16:58	rlander	yogthos: +foo module support?
16:58	yogthos	rlander: http://www.luminusweb.net/docs/profiles.md
16:58	rlander	yogthos: ahhh, gotcha
17:11	dpick	hey guys, any idea why hitting a url in the browser and grabbing it with wget would give me once set of html and grabbing it with slurp or clj-http would give a another?
17:11	dpick	doesn't seem to be a user agent thing
17:11	pmonks	redirects? <warning: n00b>
17:12	dpick	does slurp not follow redirects?
17:12	dpick	(there are redirects)
17:12	pmonks	No clue sorry…
17:13	technomancy	I think curl doesn't by default
17:13	rboyd	dpick: wireshark?
17:13	brehaut	slurp is powered by java.net.URL et al right?
17:13	amalloy	curl doesn't follow redirects
17:13	brehaut	im pretty sure it doesnt follow redirects by default either
17:13	amalloy	slurp doesnt either last i checked
17:14	dpick	I set wget to not follow redirects and it just bombs out early, I don't get any html
17:14	dpick	rboyd: nothing interesting there, just a couple of 302's
17:14	brehaut	dpick: get wget to display the response
17:14	brehaut	'bombs out early' isnt really science
17:15	dpick	it sends back a 302 and wget doesn't follow it
17:15	arohner	is there a version of hash-map that accepts duplicates without throwing?
17:15	amalloy	i think in 1.5 that function is hash-map
17:16	amalloy	prior to 1.5, your best bet is assoc or into
17:16	dpick	ahhh crap figured it out
17:16	dpick	the server sends a different redirect if the client doesn't accept cookies
17:16	AWizzArd	I have N doubles, and would like to use the format string "%,11f". I don’t know however what my N is. Can be between 1-15. Is there a format directive to say “use this format string for all args and divide them by two spaces”?
17:17	arohner	amalloy: thanks
17:18	amalloy	AWizzArd: (s/join " " (map #(format ...) doubles)))?
17:19	AWizzArd	yes, I use join so far, but thought there might be something else
17:19	brehaut	jkkramer's formative lib (https://github.com/jkk/formative) looks interesting
17:20	jkkramer	brehaut: you just beat me to soliciting feedback about it ;)
17:20	brehaut	lol :)
17:20	brehaut	its not often i snipe anyone from the other side of the world
17:22	dpick	\q
17:22	brehaut	jkkramer: is it possible to extend datatype?
17:23	jkkramer	brehaut: yes, with formative.parse/parse-input
17:23	jkkramer	(a multimethod dispatching on :datatype or :type)
17:24	brehaut	cool
17:27	brehaut	jkkramer: based on reading only the docs, it seems solid.
17:27	jkkramer	brehaut: it's been in development a while, and seen some real-world usage
17:28	brehaut	cool
17:28	kovas_	ohpauleez: ping
17:28	brehaut	i like that everything is data and that you've seperated all the bits
17:29	kovas_	ohpauleez: I'm having an issue with BlobBuilder. Is that limited to shoreleave-browser, or does it affect (possibly transitively) the other modules also?
17:29	technomancy	jkkramer: looks good
17:29	technomancy	wish I had found that before I started syme =)
17:30	technomancy	jkkramer: have you considered putting the source next to the rendered form in the demo app?
17:30	jkkramer	technomancy: not a bad idea, I will do that
17:31	jkkramer	technomancy: does syme do form stuff? I thought it was like a pair coding thing
17:32	technomancy	jkkramer: there's a single form in it, but it's not tricky by any means
17:32	technomancy	well, technically two if you count the single-form "which project?" splash
17:34	jkkramer	technomancy: ah yep I see
17:35	jkkramer	technomancy: btw, do you know about the placeholder input attr? it does basically what your onfocus/blur handlers are doing
17:35	technomancy	jkkramer: aha; I did not. is that part of HTML5?
17:35	brehaut	technomancy: yes
17:35	technomancy	my web programming skills are basically c. cutting-edge-2008
17:36	technomancy	thanks
17:36	jkkramer	most sane browsers support it these days
17:36	technomancy	I doubt any IE users would want to use Syme anyway =)
17:37	brehaut	technomancy: im not sure web technology has a cutting edge. just less rusty than previously
17:38	frozenlock	cljs : In my project I've added :foreign-libs [{:file "libs/envision.min.js" :provides ["envision.core"]}]. Now I require it in my ns declaration: (:require [envision.core :as v]). How can I access a js function envision.templates.myFn ?
17:38	michaelr525	am i not supposed to start a project from lighttable if I want to work on it from lighttable?
17:38	michaelr525	there is no "new project" command..
17:39	dcjackson	technomancy: all of sudden today lein2rc1 and lein2rc2 are glacially slow. Seemed to start right after I first attempted to upgrade to rc2. Takes MINUTES to run lein version. Any ideas what is wrong with my setup? OSX, been running lein for years….
17:39	technomancy	dcjackson: haven't heard of that
17:40	technomancy	upgrading to rc2 made rc1 slow too?
17:40	technomancy	what about preview20?
17:40	technomancy	10
17:40	dcjackson	here is what happened once: ✗ lein2rc2 version
17:40	dcjackson	Jan 15, 2013 2:19:34 PM org.apache.http.impl.client.DefaultRequestDirector tryExecute
17:40	dcjackson	INFO: I/O exception (java.net.SocketException) caught when processing request: Connection reset
17:40	dcjackson	Jan 15, 2013 2:19:34 PM org.apache.http.impl.client.DefaultRequestDirector tryExecute
17:40	dcjackson	INFO: Retrying request
17:40	dcjackson	Leiningen 2.0.0-RC2 on Java 1.6.0_37 Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM
17:43	dcjackson	p10 is very snappy
17:44	dcjackson	they all seem to work now
17:44	dcjackson	something is strange
17:44	dcjackson	Perhaps this is some sort of weird network issue for me
17:45	ohpauleez	kovas_: Just the browser
17:45	ohpauleez	it's all patched up in master
17:46	ohpauleez	new releases for everything should be done by Friday
17:46	kovas_	cool. i just upgraded my deps and it seems to work again
17:46	technomancy	dcjackson: you shouldn't need to hit the network if your ~/.m2 has been primed
17:47	dcjackson	lein deps
17:47	dcjackson	Could not transfer artifact postgresql:postgresql:pom:9.2-1002.jdbc4 from/to mvnrepository (http://mvnrepository.com/): Failed to transfer file: http://mvnrepository.com/postgresql/postgresql/9.2-1002.jdbc4/postgresql-9.2-1002.jdbc4.pom. Return code is: 502, ReasonPhrase:Bad Gateway.
17:47	dcjackson	This could be due to a typo in :dependencies or network issues.
17:47	dcjackson	Could not resolve dependencies
17:47	dcjackson	that jar is in m2 for sure
17:48	technomancy	dcjackson: so this is only inside a specific project?
17:48	dcjackson	want me to try another project?
17:48	technomancy	yeah, or outside
17:49	technomancy	it could be we default to unreasonable fetch timeouts
17:52	dcjackson	technomancy: I am having various problems still
17:52	dcjackson	outside of a project, lein version seems to work OK
17:53	dcjackson	In a project, lein or lein version are OK. But lein deps hangs, as does a line run alias
17:59	xeqi	dcjackson, technomancy: I notice its looking for the pom, not the jar. Also should mvnrepository.com resolve in a browser?
17:59	xeqi	ah, 504 Gateway Time-out
17:59	dcjackson	There is no pom for that jar
17:59	dcjackson	:-(
18:00	dcjackson	in my .m2
18:00	dcjackson	can't find one on the net. so I've just been using the jar
18:00	dcjackson	alone
18:01	hyPiRion	Humm, make up one with no dependencies
18:01	technomancy	using a jar without a pom would probably make lein very confused
18:02	xeqi	eh, it just means it tries to find the pom, fails, and then acts as if it doens't have any dependencies
18:02	dcjackson	well, you would know, but it seems to have been working ok
18:02	xeqi	which based on an older version of postgresql seems fine
18:02	xeqi	if you want to stop the network looking for it copy http://search.maven.org/remotecontent?filepath=postgresql/postgresql/9.1-901-1.jdbc4/postgresql-9.1-901-1.jdbc4.pom
18:02	xeqi	and change the version name
18:03	xeqi	since it looks like a basic pom w/o dependencies that should work fine
18:03	dcjackson	I'll try that
18:09	tomoj	Raynes: my markup has [{:type :element :tag :p} "\n\n" {:type :element :tag :table}]
18:09	tomoj	which requires (l/adjacent-to (l/element= :p) (l/any) (l/element= :table))
18:10	tomoj	bug or intended?
18:10	dcjackson	technomancy, xeql: Well, one of two things helped a lot: I went back and ran lein2p10. That had NO problems doing a lein deps, etc. Also I did what xeql proposed, copied the other postgresql .pom into the new directory . now rc2 works fine
18:10	tomoj	..maybe I should just run htmlcleaner on the markup before I parse it?
18:11	blackdog	hey - what's the current hotness for emacs-clojure interaction?
18:11	egghead	blackdog: I like nrepl
18:11	egghead	https://github.com/kingtim/nrepl.el
18:11	tomoj	or maybe I just want ~ instead of +
18:11	blackdog	egghead: cheers
18:13	dcjackson	xeql, technomancy: thank you for the help. Now I am back to my previous level of productivity :-)
18:14	xeqi	dcjackson: hurray, looks like the network at mvnrepository.com fixed as well
18:15	xeqi	my theory - slowness due to looking for the jar would have hit p10 as well, but they finally fixed it. However, now that you have the pom in place it shouldn't matter anymore
18:15	xeqi	* looking for the pom
18:16	Raynes	tomoj: That's more or less a bug. Could you open an issue? There are a couple of ways I could fix it.
18:17	frozenlock	Is there js->cljs cljs->js now in cljs?
18:17	frozenlock	(IIRC one of the two wasn't)
18:18	egghead	ya frozenlock
18:18	egghead	both are in there now
18:18	frozenlock	\o/
18:18	frozenlock	.. which ns?
18:19	egghead	(ns cljs-app.yunoincore)
18:19	frozenlock	Damnit... it threw an error before I 'got it'
18:20	tomoj	Raynes: also: https://www.refheap.com/paste/441a891419f3cd7d74f06ecec
18:20	tomoj	bug?
18:20	clojurebot	Paste the contents of project.clj and ~/.lein/init.clj along with the output of ls ~/.lein/plugins and lein version.
18:21	tomoj	I forgot the </table>, but that doesn't change anything
18:21	Raynes	tomoj: What specifically?
18:21	frozenlock	egghead: wait.. aren't supposed to have access to the core fns in any ns? str, print, +... they all work fine.
18:22	tomoj	well, possible bug 1: adjacent-to doesn't skip whitespace (probably it shouldn't?)
18:22	tomoj	possible bug 2: in that refheap, I expect to get (("foo" "bar") ("baz" "bing"))
18:22	egghead	ya frozenlock, was just saying you don't need to manually include that snippet anymore
18:23	tomoj	s/whitespace/text nodes/ I guess
18:23	Raynes	tomoj: Probably a bug. I'm actually on a phone at the moment. I'll try this out and see what's up asap.
18:24	TimMc	Raynes would never be so uncool as to actually place a voice call.
18:24	frozenlock	egghead: I must be doing very wrong... (clj->js {:a 1}) should do it, right?
18:24	TimMc	That's for old people.
18:25	tomoj	Raynes: no prob, I should be doing something else right now anyway
18:26	egghead	frozenlock: maybe it's a version thing? https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/cljs/cljs/core.cljs#L6927
18:30	arohner	is there a known issue with (merge) in 1.5?
18:31	arohner	in 1.4, (merge) returns nil, while in 1.5.0-RC2, (merge) throws
18:33	frozenlock	egghead: Yup, I was using lein-cljsbuild 0.2.8 insteand of 0.2.10. Thank you :)
18:33	zodiak	arohner, (merge) doesn't throw for me in 1.5.0-rc2
18:33	ivan	do the examples in https://github.com/frenchy64/typed-clojure bother anyone else because the function name appears twice?
18:36	arohner	zodiak: hrm. I was going to try to reproduce it, but now I'm getting a different error. Maybe I had something else weird going on
18:37	dnolen_	ivan: not really since that's how it is in Typed Racket (on which it is based) and various other typed langs.
18:37	ivan	huh.
18:38	ivan	my memory of a concise version when it was first released must be failing me
18:38	nDuff	ivan: The release that came with the original paper describing it had that same convention.
18:39	dnolen_	ivan: he may have toyed around with syntax but that would have been back before Google Summer of Code started I think
18:39	dnolen_	last year
18:56	weavejester	Hmm. When I add seque to my program, it blocks for 60 seconds before exiting.
18:57	hiredman	weavejester: seque cause the agent pools to spin up
18:58	weavejester	Hm, so a shutdown-agents might be in order
18:58	weavejester	I guess they must use an executor with a 60 second keepalive or something
19:03	frozenlock	Is there some way to have a namespace require different libraries depending on wether it's in prod on dev?
19:03	frozenlock	*or
19:04	weavejester	Frozenlock: Use an environment variable to determine the difference, and then use a case statement to determine which libraries to load?
19:04	technomancy	or have a different :src-paths entry in the :dev profile
19:05	weavejester	technomancy: That's a better idea
19:05	weavejester	hiredman: Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. It exits immediately now.
19:06	frozenlock	technomancy: That might do it :)
19:07	weavejester	For ages I thought the timeout was due to my own ineptitude in configuring a custom executor. I forgot that agents use one too.
19:37	blackdog	why does the first work but the second doesn't? https://gist.github.com/4543502
19:37	hiredman	what is the value of .getName?
19:37	blackdog	i get "can't resolve symbol: .getName in this context"
19:38	blackdog	it's a method on the java object
19:38	hiredman	what is the value of .getName?
19:38	blackdog	well, obviously it's undefined, at least in the second one. that's why i'm asking: is there some voodoo that brings it into scope in the first form?
19:38	hiredman	,(macroexpand '(.foo bar))
19:39	clojurebot	(. bar foo)
19:40	Sgeo	.foo is not a value, it is syntactic sugar
19:42	blackdog	Sgeo: ok. is there a value i can pass in to map that will do the right thing?
19:43	Sgeo	#(.getName %)
19:44	Sgeo	,(map #(.toString %) [1 2 3])
19:44	clojurebot	("1" "2" "3")
19:44	Sgeo	(Although in this case I would use str, but you get the drift)
19:45	blackdog	whee, so much syntax:) can you explain what's happening there? is #( ... %) a special form?
19:45	zodiak	blackdog, it's short hand for an anonymous function
19:45	Sgeo	It's syntax sugar for a lambda
19:46	blackdog	ah, ok. that's right, remember seeing that in joy of clojure
19:47	blackdog	i miss partial application :/ guess that's the price for variadic functions.
19:47	Sgeo	,(map (partial + 1) [1 2 3])
19:47	clojurebot	(2 3 4)
19:48	brehaut	blackdog: you mean you miss automatically curried functions
19:48	blackdog	brehaut: yes, was imprecise.
19:49	blackdog	Sgeo: yeah. looking around for functional-ish stuff on the JVM, and scala scares the living shit out of me.
19:49	Sgeo	For me, Clojure is mostly a thing I look at in spite of the JVM, not because of it
19:50	Sgeo	I like Haskell, but also like macros and the ability to change code at runtime easily
19:50	frozenlock	What the... when I add domina to my dependencies, clj->js stops working o_O
19:50	TimMc	blackdog: The various syntactic forms should be covered by http://clojure.org/reader
19:50	blackdog	Sgeo: don stewart's thesis was interesting there - showed how far you can push dynamic systems in haskell
19:50	Sgeo	blackdog, I haven't seen it
19:51	blackdog	still, it's not trivial, and it's certainly not the way haskell systems are typically built
19:51	brehaut	blackdog: the problem with that is that dons is a genius and some of us are not
19:51	brehaut	(and by some of us i mean me)
19:51	blackdog	Sgeo: code.haskell.org/~dons/papers/thesis/dons-phd-thesis.pdf
19:51	blackdog	brehaut: :) i agree entirely.
19:51	blackdog	(he used to be my cubicle-mate at UNSW - scarily productive & smart guy)
19:52	Sgeo	I like it for the IDE, not the language
19:52	brehaut	university of new south wales?
19:52	blackdog	brehaut: yeah
19:53	brehaut	blackdog: just across the ditch then
19:53	blackdog	brehaut: oh, you're an NZer?
19:53	brehaut	yeah
19:53	blackdog	do you functional types hang out much? I know stephen blackheath and hamish mackenzie are kiwis
19:53	brehaut	i dont know either of them
19:54	brehaut	ive not met many kiwi FP people
19:54	blackdog	i took stephen to an nz railscamp a while back and he proselytised haskell at the unwashed rails hackers for three days :)
19:54	brehaut	lol
19:54	blackdog	ah - stephen's the guy who got ghc working on ARM and iOS. hamish is working on the haskell ide
19:55	brehaut	sure
19:56	brehaut	the closest i get to know those kinds of people is a friend who partially ported GHC to the CLR, he's not a FP guy though.
19:57	TimMc	brehaut: Dammit, I'm reading about the eymology of "kiwi" and now I've completely scanted out on the word.
19:57	brehaut	timmc: scanted?
19:58	TimMc	smock smock smock smock smock
19:58	brehaut	◎_◎
19:58	TimMc	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_satiation
19:59	blackdog	TimMc: you're a verbal terrorist :)
19:59	brehaut	TimMc: oh true.
19:59	Sgeo	semantic satiation semantic satiation semantic satiation semantic satiation
19:59	brehaut	TimMc: Squirrel does this to me all the time
19:59	TimMc	I was hoping you'd get the Calvin & Hobbes reference and I wouldn't have to try to remember the more formal term.
19:59	egghead	hmm
19:59	egghead	30-mins isn't a valid symbol eh :(
19:59	brehaut	i have not read C&H in many years. i need to remedy that
20:00	TimMc	(Hmm, that C&H strip was not actually about scanting out.)
20:00	egghead	&'30-mins
20:00	lazybot	java.lang.NumberFormatException: Invalid number: 30-mins
20:00	egghead	is this a feature of clojure or an artifact of the host?
20:02	Sgeo	Probably Clojure
20:02	Apage43	symbols must begin with a not-number
20:02	TimMc	The stack trace appears to indicate LispReader.
20:02	Apage43	Right. It's because the reader.
20:02	Apage43	You can, if you really want to intentionally construct a symbol object that if asked its name will give you something that can't be read back by the reader
20:03	Apage43	,(symbol "30")
20:03	clojurebot	30
20:03	Apage43	which would be read back of course as a number, not a symbol
20:04	TimMc	&(-> 30 str symbol pr-str read-string class)
20:04	lazybot	⇒ java.lang.Long
20:04	dnolen	egghead: not a valid symbol
20:05	egghead	guess It's because of my poor knowledge of the reader
20:05	amalloy	if you made the reader accept 30num as a symbol, you'd have to change a lot of the compiler as well, because it often turns symbols into class names or member variables
20:05	TimMc	I think the reader is an LL(1) parser, yeah?
20:06	amalloy	yeah, i think so
20:08	TimMc	Although... that really depends on the tokenizer.
20:08	TimMc	Based on the dispatch table stuff, I'm gonna guess the "tokens" are always characters.
20:10	TimMc	Holy crud, C++ isn't context-free-parseable?
20:10	brehaut	indeed it is not
20:10	brehaut	crazy eh
20:12	TimMc	That means that someone knew exactly how complex the syntax was befor releasing it, because they had to implement a parser first...
20:14	blackdog	TimMc: suspect it went like this: "Welp, we can either implement this pig-ugly grammar, or sit through another six months of standardisation meetings. Pig-ugly it is."
20:17	tomoj	hmm, does clojars order by date? https://clojars.org/ring
20:17	tomoj	1.1.7 is 'newer'
20:17	tomoj	need a semver library
20:17	weavejester	It must be by date
20:18	weavejester	I fixed and released 1.1.7 first because more people use 1.1
20:19	Foxboron	putting my hands on emacs and nrepl for the first time. Damn, big learning curve from using Sublime Text :/
20:24	frozenlock	Errm... a javascript library I want to use requires the user to add a css file. What would be the most elegant way to package this in a cljs library? Store the css file into resources, then add it to the head on document load?
20:24	xeqi	tomoj, weavejester: yeah, its by date atm
20:24	TimMc	You could always re-push 1.1.7. :-P
20:25	xeqi	easier to compare that in the db, hopefully w'll finish some transition work later and we can change the sorting
20:26	aaelony	any tips on the fastest way to write very large data to a file?
20:26	tomoj	lazybot just scrapes clojars
20:27	aaelony	it's actually the lazy-seq that is quite large, not the elements within the seq
20:42	Foxboron	Umm, trying to use nrepl with clojure, but when i use C-c C-e to eval an expression nrepl replies with: No Lisp subprocess; see variable `inferior-lisp-buffer'. Anyone able to help me in the right direction?
20:46	ivan	Foxboron: is your .clj buffer in clojure-mode?
20:47	ivan	anyway, works for me with just (require 'clojure-mode) (require 'nrepl)
20:49	Foxboron	I found a stackoverflow question burried down. Had to enable nrepl-enable-on-existing-clojure-buffers
20:50	Foxboron	ivan: works as a charm now :)
20:56	ohpauleez	For those that follow shoreleave news - With the upcoming release a new module has been added: shoreleave-baseline
20:56	ohpauleez	it's a repo you can clone, and serves as a starting block, much like ClojureScript:One
20:57	ohpauleez	three branches: bare, master, and kitchensink let you dial the example in
20:57	ohpauleez	comes complete with everything you need, just clone, code, and off to the races
21:00	frozenlock	ohpauleez: Any running example of shoreleave?
21:01	ohpauleez	frozenlock: There's a demo app someone made, let me link you
21:01	frozenlock	https://github.com/robert-stuttaford/demo-enfocus-pubsub-remote this one?
21:01	ohpauleez	that's the one
21:01	ohpauleez	shoreleave-baseline is a more complete version of that
21:02	ohpauleez	frozenlock: haha
21:02	ohpauleez	I know of a dozen or so production apps that use some piece of shoreleave
21:02	frozenlock	How convenient, I was toying with fetch today because I needed some client/server communication.
21:03	tomoj	where is it?
21:03	ohpauleez	kablammo
21:03	ohpauleez	frozenlock: Shoreleave is basically all the stuff you end up writing anyway when you build a serious CLJS app
21:03	ohpauleez	tomoj: Where is what?
21:04	tomoj	shoreleave-baseline
21:04	ohpauleez	haven't cut the release yet and pushed the repo
21:04	tomoj	ah
21:04	ohpauleez	just wrapping up the kitchensink code tonight
21:04	ohpauleez	literally every piece of shoreleave, all wired up. Sort of a smoke-test type of application
21:04	frozenlock	ohpauleez: I'll use your cljs expertise then! :D I have a JS library that requires a css file. Is there a way to package everything in a nice little cljs library, without the user having to manually add the css file?
21:05	tomoj	excellent
21:05	frozenlock	ohpauleez: doh! cljsbuild failed -_-
21:06	ohpauleez	frozenlock: what release? what error? (I haven't cut the new releases yet)
21:06	ohpauleez	I cut all of my CLJS projects over to a release, let them run for a bit, then if it looks good I push the releases
21:06	frozenlock	Well the link above...
21:06	clojurebot	unlink: and constantly is just a function that takes any arguments and returns whatever argument is given
21:07	frozenlock	WARNING: using numeric exit values in plugins is deprecated.
21:07	frozenlock	Plugins should use leiningen.core.main/abort instead.
21:07	frozenlock	Support for this will be removed before the stable 2.0.0 release.
21:07	frozenlock	cljsbuild failed.
21:07	frozenlock
21:07	ohpauleez	frozenlock: Ahh
21:07	ohpauleez	thank you, I'll make sure it gets updated
21:08	frozenlock	I think changing cljsbuild version solved the problem.
21:12	frozenlock	Yup, solve it.
21:12	frozenlock	solved even
21:13	frozenlock	ohpauleez: Is it unique for each visitor?
21:13	ohpauleez	frozenlock: Is what unique? The JS?
21:14	frozenlock	The demo, I was wondering if each user had its own item list.
21:18	frozenlock	ohpauleez: Is there other code examples besides the demo?
21:25	ohpauleez	frozenlock: Off the top of my head, I can only think of two blog posts that made examples
21:25	ohpauleez	and soon, shoreleave-baseline
21:29	dnolen	core.logic is breaking away from cKanren naming convention for the fd functionality - http://github.com/clojure/core.logic/compare/org-fd
21:29	tomoj	hooray
21:29	dnolen	sorry to cause trouble for people who are already relying on this stuff - it mostly just means renaming
21:29	dnolen	+fd -> fd/+, distinctfd -> fd/distinct etc to make it more Clojure-y
21:31	dnolen	tomoj: yeah, I probably should have done that from the beginning but was deep in implementation issues.
21:31	frozenlock	ohpauleez: Would you mind explaining what is this for? (rpc/remote-ns 'example.api :as "api")
21:31	tomoj	I was just daydreaming earlier about forking core.logic and renaming everything
21:31	frozenlock	I haven't seen namespace mention in `fetch'.
21:32	dnolen	also clojure.core.logic.clj now has 1K less code, so hopefully a little bit easier to read for people curious about the implementation who don't want to be bogged down in CLP(FD) details
21:32	dnolen	tomoj: heh
21:32	tomoj	but I feel not even close to understanding it, so..
21:32	ohpauleez	frozenlock: That changes a little in upcoming release, but it let's you expose an entire namespace as a remote API
21:33	ohpauleez	that call means on the client, you can call (api/whatever-fn …)
21:33	dnolen	tomoj: well we're moving further and further away from miniKanren so, for new stuff I'm definitely up for good names and proper namespacing.
21:33	frozenlock	oh... Oh!
21:33	tomoj	I was also thinking about the -o stuff
21:33	tomoj	imagined '?foo?
21:33	dnolen	tomoj: the core miniKanren stuff probably won't change nor the -o stuff.
21:33	dnolen	tomoj: however we can build much better functionality off the constraint stuff anyhow
21:34	ohpauleez	frozenlock: It means that instead of having to wire a whole namespace up, you can just say, "This is the remote API into my system"
21:34	dnolen	I look forward to the day that people don't use membero and appendo ever
21:34	dnolen	tomoj: we'll need good names for whatever replace them, and hopefully deprecate them.
21:34	frozenlock	ohpauleez: consider me sold. When does the new version come up? :)
21:34	tomoj	interesting
21:35	ohpauleez	frozenlock: Should be Friday
21:35	tomoj	I saw oleg wrote a paper about how to do arithmetic in minikanren by simulating a hardware adder
21:35	ohpauleez	I need to wrap up the new pieces, deploy all of my apps that use Shoreleave, then cut releases and make the announcement
21:35	dnolen	tomoj: yes we're getting really close to being able to use bi-directional assoc and stuff like that
21:35	dnolen	tomoj: so you can actually to proper relational programming with maps and stuff.
21:35	frozenlock	ohpauleez: Will it still be based on Noir?
21:36	dnolen	actually do
21:36	tomoj	great, I've been eyeballing partial-map
21:36	dnolen	tomoj: partial-map is an implementation detail - featurec is the thing to actually use
21:36	muhoo	is shoreleave in use in production anywhere yet?
21:37	tomoj	I figured featurec was constraint-related and so ignored it since I don't have a clue about that stuff
21:37	ohpauleez	muhoo: Yeah, I certainly know of a few - it was developed in parallel of working on productions systems
21:37	ohpauleez	and I know of about a dozen or so outside of my own that are using it
21:37	ohpauleez	frozenlock: Nope, that's one of the changes - better ring/compojure support
21:38	dnolen	tomoj: things are moving more and more towards constraints - they are less trouble then relations and serve much the same purpose minus the bad non-termination stuff.
21:38	frozenlock	Damnit. I really need to switch from Noir to compojure.
21:38	dnolen	tomoj: constraints TDLR; - relations that can be delayed so you can avoid more non-termination cases
21:39	dnolen	er tldr;
21:39	ohpauleez	frozenlock: FWIW, the new shoreleave-baseline is a compojure/lib-noir stack on the server side
21:40	muhoo	TDLR Time Domain Linear Refractometer
21:40	tomoj	if that enables bidirectional assoc, I wonder if you can get bidirectional lens families
21:41	muhoo	ohpauleez: thanks, good to know. the focus on XSS security indicated to me that it was used in production somewhere :-)
21:41	dnolen	tomoj: heh, dunno, I don't know anything about lenses. But at least you can write core.logic code with better data structures.
21:43	tomoj	I hate to ask, but, you think, 'close' as in.. months? I ask because if it were expected sooner than months, then I really need to catch up on constraints
21:43	dnolen	tomoj: 'close' as in anyone could implement it today
21:44	tomoj	featurec is a starting point?
21:45	dnolen	tomoj: sort of, I mean I can write up an example here in a bit.
21:45	dnolen	tomoj: the only reason I haven't done it yet, because I have decided on the constraint implementation API - but I closing on something I like for that
21:45	dnolen	I haven't decided I mean.
21:45	tomoj	cool
21:45	dnolen	so you could do it today - but the API is going to change - so it's not time yet.
21:47	dnolen	tomoj: I think it will be awesome :) and it will happen soon, but perhaps not until after Clojure/West
21:47	dnolen	tomoj: or if I'm able find enough time, demo it @ Clojure/West
21:48	tomoj	there are problems with higher-order relations, iirc?
21:48	tomoj	or just you can't table them
21:49	dnolen	tomoj: "problems"? there's just no support for that at all.
21:49	tomoj	right, that's what I thought
21:49	tomoj	I was trying to imagine bidirectional update-in
21:50	gfredericks	that would kind of imply that a logic var's value can be a relation
21:50	tomoj	indeed
21:50	gfredericks	does prolog have such a thing?
21:50	tomoj	oh, I didn't realize that
21:50	dnolen	tomoj: it's possible to do FP style higher stuff in a LP paradigm ... but it's not something I'm planning on pursuing anytime soon.
21:51	dnolen	even crazier would be higher order logic programming - but I'm also not going there anytime soon.
21:51	tomoj	(I mean, I assumed the, uh, 'inner' relation would always be ground)
21:52	dnolen	gfredericks: yes, you thinking about higher order logic programming - Lambda Prolog
21:52	tomoj	so I guess you just have a function like (relation-in ks relation) that returns a new relation
21:52	dnolen	http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Higher-Order-Logic-Dale-Miller/dp/052187940X
21:53	dnolen	though I will say, a lot of what people use that for is theoretical CS - and it's still an open question whether nominal logic doesn't deliver most of that power w/o the complexity.
21:54	tomoj	I'm just completely blocking out the "nominal" stuff :(
21:54	ohpauleez	dnolen: I've been trying to wrap my head around the nominal stuff
21:54	ohpauleez	hahaha
21:54	ohpauleez	it looks like I'm not alone
21:54	gfredericks	dnolen: there are so many things I haven't even heard of O_O
21:54	dnolen	tomoj: no worries, it's heady stuff unless you want dig into theory.
21:54	tomoj	one of those papers where I follow along patiently for a while, waiting to catch any whiff of the idea, then skim the rest in despair
21:55	dnolen	tomoj: what's cool about it is that it let's you literally take inference rules and operational semantics from a paper and convert them trivially into a logic program.
21:55	dnolen	so if you ever wanted to run the pi calculus - well that's like maybe a hundred lines of code or something.
21:59	dnolen	these are the typing rules for the simply typed lambda calculus - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simply_typed_lambda_calculus#Typing_rules
22:00	dnolen	and the core.logic nominal program that corresponds to them, http://github.com/namin/TAPL-in-miniKanren-cKanren-core.logic/blob/master/clojure-tapl/tapl/src/tapl/stlc.clj#L89
22:01	dnolen	(2) in the Wikipedia article is not included - but otherwise if you squint, it's a direct translation
22:48	xeqi	ppppaul: thanks for the issues on peridot. That last one did lead to me finding a bug with multipart and :headers. Not sure if I answered everything in it or not, let me know
23:06	tomoj	dakrone: want a pull request? https://www.refheap.com/paste/e13f0c97503bfa55601964a68